1. 1 Tuesday, 28 March 2000

    2 [Open session]

    3 [The witness entered court]

    4 --- Upon commencing at 9.40 a.m.

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

    6 morning, ladies and gentlemen. Good morning,

    7 technicians, interpreters; I believe they can hear me.

    8 Yes, I can hear you too. Good morning, counsel for the

    9 Prosecution; good morning, counsel for the Defence;

    10 good morning, General Krstic. I gather that the

    11 appearances are the same, and we will continue in

    12 hearing the case, the Prosecutor versus General

    13 Krstic. Mr. Cayley will resume his examination.

    14 Good morning, Witness. Let me just remind

    15 you that you are still under oath.

    16 Mr. Cayley, you have the floor.

    17 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. Good

    18 morning, Your Honours; good morning, counsel.

    19 WITNESS: DAVID VAASEN [Resumed]

    20 Examined by Mr. Cayley: [Cont'd]

    21 Q. Corporal Vaasen, we finished yesterday on the

    22 night of the 12th of July, 1995. You will recall you

    23 gave evidence yesterday about discovering a rape of a

    24 young woman in progress.

    25 I want now to move ahead further on in that

  2. 1 evening. I believe you kept on patrolling in and

    2 around the areas of the factories; is that correct?

    3 A. Yes, sir.

    4 Q. Can you describe to the Judges what else you

    5 saw and heard that night, that night of the 12th of

    6 July?

    7 A. Well, that night was really awful because the

    8 noise up there was very strange. You heard shooting

    9 around; you heard people screaming. Another time, you

    10 heard shooting and you heard just like cowboys or

    11 wolves, people making noises like that. It was very

    12 dark, and those refugees who were there were very

    13 scared.

    14 Q. Corporal Vaasen, the shots that you heard,

    15 were they local shots or were they shots from far

    16 away? Could you tell?

    17 A. Well, they came from all around.

    18 Q. Now, you're a professional soldier and you're

    19 used to hearing shooting. Could you actually detect at

    20 all from the sound where any of the firing was

    21 happening?

    22 A. Well, it was also in the hills, around our UN

    23 compound. But you couldn't see anything.

    24 Q. You said you heard shooting and then

    25 screaming and then the sound of people howling or, I

  3. 1 think your exact words were, "just like cowboys or

    2 wolves, people making noises like that." At the time,

    3 what did you think was happening?

    4 A. Well, when I heard that, I got a real strange

    5 feeling that they were hunting people.

    6 Q. When you say "hunting people," can you expand

    7 on that? Can you explain to the Judges what you mean

    8 by that?

    9 A. I mean Serb people hunting Muslim people.

    10 Q. When they were hunting them, when they found

    11 them, what did you think they were doing to them at the

    12 time? What were your thoughts at the time?

    13 A. Well, after that you heard shots, so they

    14 were probably basically killing those people.

    15 Q. Now, I think you patrolled all that night.

    16 Do you recall what you were wearing --

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. -- that night?

    19 A. I was wearing my full armour; I had my weapon

    20 with me, my helmet, my body armour, my ammunition, the

    21 standard issue for a soldier. That's what I had.

    22 Q. Were you wearing anything that was coloured

    23 blue?

    24 A. Yes, there was my helmet.

    25 Q. Your helmet was coloured blue?

  4. 1 A. Yes, sir.

    2 Q. Anything else?

    3 A. No, sir.

    4 Q. Did that equipment remain with you all night?

    5 A. No, sir.

    6 Q. What happened? Can you tell what happened to

    7 the Judges?

    8 A. Yes. Later that night, there were some Serb

    9 soldiers and they took some equipment from my other

    10 fellow soldiers. Later on, they approached me and they

    11 asked me to give up my weapon, my body armour, my

    12 helmet, and I said no. Later on, they asked again and

    13 I said, again, no. Then there was a Serb soldier who

    14 took his AK-47, he loaded his weapon, pointed it at my

    15 head and asked me again to give up all my stuff, all my

    16 equipment, otherwise I would be shot. So I gave him my

    17 equipment, my weapon, my body armour, everything.

    18 Q. Did that happen to anybody else that night?

    19 A. Almost everybody who was staying out that

    20 night.

    21 Q. Do you remember, if you can, how many Dutch

    22 soldiers that happened to?

    23 A. Well, about 30 people, 30 soldiers.

    24 Q. So 30 soldiers had all of their equipment

    25 stolen --

  5. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. -- by the Bosnian Serb army.

    3 A. Yes, sir.

    4 Q. Let's move on to the next day, to the 13th of

    5 July of 1995. What did you do that day, first thing in

    6 the morning; can you recall?

    7 A. The first thing that I did was I went back to

    8 the base to get some food, and then I went back to the

    9 human barricade. Because I was unarmed, I tried to get

    10 a weapon on the base. They gave me a sidearm, a

    11 pistol. And when I went out of the base, I thought to

    12 myself that I had better leave it on the base, because

    13 if I went out, they would probably steal it again. So

    14 I left it right in front of the gate with a colleague

    15 of mine. So I went without weapons or anything outside

    16 again.

    17 Q. Now, you stated you went back to the human

    18 barricade. Can you describe to the Judges what you saw

    19 taking place from your location there that day?

    20 A. Later that day, early in the morning, the

    21 Serb soldiers were preparing to start the

    22 transportation again. The buses and the trucks came,

    23 and the whole thing started all over again, the same as

    24 the day before.

    25 Q. When you say "to start the transportation

  6. 1 again," can you explain to the Judges what you mean by

    2 that?

    3 A. I mean by that taking the women and children

    4 away, separating the men from the women again and

    5 children. That's what happened.

    6 Q. Now, when you compared the speed of the

    7 process that was happening on the 13th of July,

    8 compared to the 12th of July, which was faster? Was it

    9 faster on the 12th or on the 13th, or was it the same

    10 speed?

    11 A. No, on the 13th, it was faster. They rushed

    12 through the whole thing.

    13 Q. Now, did you see any VRS, members of the

    14 Bosnian Serb army, that you recognised that day?

    15 A. Yes. I showed yesterday a picture of a man

    16 who was sitting next to General Mladic, that man was

    17 also there.

    18 MR. CAYLEY: For the sake of the record, if

    19 the witness could just be shown tab 11, which is

    20 Exhibit 28/13, 13.1, so that we can just be sure of

    21 that individual.

    22 Q. We'll carry on so as not to waste any time.

    23 You were standing at a location, the human barricade,

    24 you said yesterday, very close to the White House. Did

    25 you look over to the White House at all that day?

  7. 1 A. Yes, sir.

    2 Q. Can you tell the Judges what you saw?

    3 A. Well, they also rushed out the men, so all

    4 the men had to stay at the White House. Some of them

    5 went also back inside the White House, Muslim

    6 soldiers -- Muslim men with Serb soldiers. Some of

    7 them came out also beaten up, scars on their face,

    8 bruises on their face, on their arms. But it was as

    9 extreme as the day before.

    10 Q. Do you remember anything significant that you

    11 saw that day by the White House? Did you hear anything

    12 by the White House that was significant that day?

    13 A. Yes. They took somebody outside, took him

    14 around behind the White House, two Serb soldiers who

    15 took a Muslim man outside the building, the White

    16 House, took him behind the White House. Then I heard

    17 one single shot, and only those two Serb soldiers came

    18 back.

    19 Q. If you could just look at the photograph

    20 that's on the ELMO next to you. If the witness could

    21 be shown that photograph very quickly. You mentioned a

    22 moment ago that that morning, the 13th of July, you saw

    23 a VRS officer, and I think you identified this

    24 gentleman yesterday. Is this the same individual that

    25 you saw on the 13th?

  8. 1 A. This is the man [indicates].

    2 Q. So that's Exhibit 13.1, and it's the

    3 individual on the right-hand side of General Mladic.

    4 Now, in terms of transportation of

    5 individuals, and you said you saw the transportation

    6 continuing on the 13th, was it only women and children

    7 that were transported on that day, or men, women, and

    8 children? Do you recall?

    9 A. Well, they took some buses from the normal

    10 transportation. They took one or sometimes two buses.

    11 They drove to the White House, they put the men inside,

    12 and they drove away. And about 15, 20 minutes later,

    13 they came back.

    14 Q. When they came back, were the buses still

    15 full or were they empty?

    16 A. No, they were empty.

    17 Q. Now, do you recall what direction the buses

    18 drove in?

    19 A. They went to Bratunac.

    20 Q. Now, you saw these buses moving towards

    21 Bratunac, and you say that they came back 15 to 20

    22 minutes later. Did you make any conclusion at the time

    23 about where those buses had been and stopped and

    24 dropped off the men and then returned from?

    25 A. Well, I had the feeling that they were

  9. 1 dropped off in Bratunac.

    2 Q. Do you recall how many times that day that

    3 process took place? And now I'm talking about the

    4 movement of men from Potocari by bus. Do you recall

    5 how many busloads?

    6 A. Not exactly. I saw it a couple of times.

    7 Q. When you say "a couple of times," do you mean

    8 more than twice, more than three times?

    9 A. No. More than three times, yes.

    10 Q. But you can't recall now exactly how many?

    11 A. No, sir.

    12 Q. Do you recall approximately what time that

    13 day the transportation process stopped?

    14 A. It was already in the evening, it was about

    15 9.00, 9.30.

    16 Q. Would it be right to say that by that stage,

    17 there were no refugees, men, women or children, left in

    18 the Potocari area?

    19 A. Well, I didn't see anybody anymore, no.

    20 Q. Let's move to the next day, which is the 14th

    21 of July, 1995, and I think on that day you were

    22 assigned to go to Srebrenica to collect Dutch military

    23 equipment from the B Company compound. Do you recall

    24 that?

    25 A. Yes, sir.

  10. 1 Q. Can you tell the Judges about that journey

    2 from Potocari to Srebrenica?

    3 A. Well, we had a new assignment that morning,

    4 to escort some soldiers from the B Company back to

    5 their own compound, to get their military stuff,

    6 equipment. So we drove with them, and I saw some

    7 horrible things on the way back.

    8 Q. Can you describe to the Judges what you saw

    9 on the road to Srebrenica?

    10 A. It was -- I saw many bodies. It started

    11 about 500, 600 metres, when we went out of the gate.

    12 To the left and right of the road, we saw dead people.

    13 They were already blue and purple because of the heat

    14 the day before. Some of them were -- just died from

    15 dehydration, and some of them were also shot, you could

    16 see that. That was a real awful face.

    17 Q. Do you recall how many bodies you saw 500 to

    18 600 metres from the UN compound?

    19 A. Well, it started with sometimes two,

    20 sometimes four, and the further we approached

    21 Srebrenica, the number of that went larger and larger.

    22 Q. Do you remember how those bodies were

    23 dressed? Were they in military clothing or in civilian

    24 clothing?

    25 A. No, they were dressed in civilian clothes.

  11. 1 Q. Were they men only, or were they a mixture of

    2 men, women, and children? Do you recall? Do you have

    3 any recollection?

    4 A. Well, most of them were older people. Until

    5 we approached Srebrenica, we also found men, women,

    6 children, everything.

    7 Q. So the bodies, as you were on the road to

    8 Srebrenica, were mostly older people.

    9 A. Yes, sir.

    10 Q. And as you approached Srebrenica, you say you

    11 found men, women, and children who were dead.

    12 I now just want to take to you the scene that

    13 you saw when you got into the centre of Srebrenica.

    14 Can you describe to the Judges what you saw when you

    15 got into the centre of town, near to where Bravo

    16 Company's compound was located?

    17 A. When we approached the centre of Srebrenica,

    18 we call it the blackmarket, the Muslim people had their

    19 own blackmarket, it was full of bodies, body parts,

    20 lying on each other. They were also blue, purple.

    21 Most of them were totally -- I'm sorry. The face of it

    22 was not so good.

    23 Q. Do you recall approximately how many bodies

    24 you saw in the centre of town?

    25 A. About 40, 50 people.

  12. 1 Q. And, again, how were those bodies dressed, if

    2 you recall?

    3 A. In civilian.

    4 Q. And do you recall the sex of those bodies?

    5 Were they a mixture of men and women and children, or

    6 were they --

    7 A. Most of them were women and children, some of

    8 them were older people, I saw also a few men.

    9 Q. Now, after you'd collected the equipment from

    10 B Company, where did you go next?

    11 A. We went back to the UN base in Potocari, and

    12 when we came back, they told us that we had to leave

    13 also as soon as possible.

    14 Q. Do you recall when you left?

    15 A. No, I'm sorry. I forgot.

    16 Q. How long after the 14th? Was it a week or

    17 two weeks, approximately, or a few days?

    18 A. Approximately a week.

    19 Q. So approximately a week after the 14th --

    20 A. Yes, sir.

    21 Q. -- you left Potocari. And where did you go

    22 after Potocari?

    23 A. Well, we were the last group who went out

    24 because we had an agreement that we had -- that we

    25 could take our APCs, armoured personnel carriers, with

  13. 1 us, and those groups were the last ones to leave the

    2 enclave, and that was no problem. And when we

    3 approached the iron bridge, we stopped because we

    4 couldn't drive any longer with those APCs because they

    5 thought that we were doing some action against the Serb

    6 army. The only thing we wanted was to go home.

    7 Q. When you're talking about the iron bridge,

    8 you're talking about the bridge over the River Drina

    9 into the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

    10 A. Yes, sir.

    11 Q. Well, to cut a long story short, I think you

    12 eventually made your way back through the Federal

    13 Republic, in to Croatia, and then to Zagreb; is that

    14 right?

    15 A. Yes, sir.

    16 Q. Then you flew back to the Netherlands?

    17 A. Yes, sir.

    18 Q. Finally, Corporal Vaasen, I mean, it's clear

    19 from your testimony that you were deeply affected by

    20 these terrible things that you saw, and I just would

    21 like to ask you if you could share with the Judges how

    22 you felt when you immediately got back home to your

    23 family and how you now deal with these images five

    24 years later.

    25 A. Well, when I arrived at the airport in

  14. 1 Holland, at Soesterberg, I was very happy in the first

    2 place that I was home, because I saw my family, my

    3 girlfriend back. And later on that day, when I was

    4 home sitting with my parents, and everybody was gone,

    5 my relatives and friends and everybody, you start

    6 thinking about what you saw there. And gladly I had

    7 some support of my father, because he's also a

    8 professional soldier, and I started to cry. Later on,

    9 I totally freaked out, started to throw things through

    10 the house. Even my own girlfriend couldn't understand

    11 what was going on up there. And now, these days, I

    12 don't sleep that well. Some days I do, some days I

    13 don't. Sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night,

    14 totally in a sweat. And every time when I'm alone at

    15 home, I always think about what I saw up there.

    16 Sometimes I always speak with my colleagues, who also

    17 went up there, because the help you get here in

    18 Holland, well, they offer it, but it's not something

    19 you can put behind your back and forget.

    20 Q. Thank you very much, Corporal Vaasen.

    21 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I have no further

    22 questions for the witness. I can now offer him to the

    23 Defence for cross-examination.

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    25 Mr. Cayley.

  15. 1 Now, Corporal Vaasen, you will answer

    2 questions that will be -- that the Defence will ask

    3 you, but perhaps you would like a break. Are you

    4 ready? Do you wish a moment to recuperate, to regain

    5 your strength, or would you rather proceed with the

    6 cross-examination immediately?

    7 THE WITNESS: I would like to proceed, Your

    8 Honour.

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

    10 At any rate here, take your time, if need be.

    11 Mr. Petrusic, I believe it is you who will

    12 conduct the cross-examination. You have the floor.

    13 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning,

    14 Your Honour, my learned friends from the Prosecution.

    15 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic:

    16 Q. Good morning, Corporal Vaasen. Before you

    17 arrived in the protected area in January 1995, you

    18 underwent special training here in the Netherlands,

    19 didn't you?

    20 A. Yes, sir.

    21 Q. And were you told then what formation of the

    22 army of the Republika Srpska was active, was present,

    23 in the territory where you were to be posted, that is,

    24 in Srebrenica?

    25 A. Yes. They told me of all the Serb units.

  16. 1 Q. But were you specifically told which Bosnian

    2 Serb army formation was holding that territory?

    3 A. Well, first of all, we had training here in

    4 Holland, they showed those badges, and we also carried

    5 a small handpocket, a book, that if we saw Serb units

    6 who we couldn't identify, we could look it up in the

    7 book, and we always found it back.

    8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

    9 I'm sorry, but I need to go back to this question

    10 specifically.

    11 Q. Was it said, were you told, which formation

    12 of the Bosnian Serb army was holding the territory at

    13 that time.

    14 A. No, sir. They didn't tell us.

    15 Q. Were you informed about the existence of the

    16 Muslim units in that territory?

    17 A. Yes, sir. Later on, when we were in the

    18 enclave, we were informed that there was an 82nd Muslim

    19 Brigade, and there were also other units in the

    20 mountains who were under the command of a local

    21 commander.

    22 Q. As part of the 82nd Brigade, is it?

    23 A. Yes, sir.

    24 Q. Would you know the name of the local

    25 commander of the 82nd Brigade?

  17. 1 A. Well, I only knew the name of the local

    2 commander where I was stationed at, at that location.

    3 Q. Are you quite sure that it was the 82nd

    4 Brigade, or perhaps could it be some other unit?

    5 A. No, sir, because we -- every time when we

    6 went on patrol, we also stopped Muslim soldiers who

    7 carried weapons. We disarmed them, asked them which

    8 unit they were and why we had to take their weapons.

    9 Q. When you arrived in your area of

    10 responsibility, were you aware that the area had been

    11 demilitarised?

    12 A. Well, that was the meaning.

    13 Q. So it was not demilitarised then.

    14 A. Well, it was demilitarised, but it was very

    15 hard for us to find all the weapons of them.

    16 Q. You, that is, your unit, how did you treat

    17 armed Muslim formations? What was your attitude to

    18 them?

    19 A. We had our standard, normal procedure. We

    20 stopped them. When they tried to run away, we went

    21 after them. And it's just like in a police arrest; we

    22 disarmed them, we searched them. After that, we take

    23 every weapon, ammunition, other kind of weapons that

    24 they carry, and later on they picked it up from the UN

    25 base and went to a barricade in Srebrenica.

  18. 1 Q. I didn't quite understand. You said that

    2 later on they picked it up and went to a barricade in

    3 Srebrenica. I don't really understand what you mean.

    4 What barricade?

    5 A. I mean they had a weapon depot in Srebrenica,

    6 the UN soldiers, they had a weapon depot up there, so

    7 there were UN soldiers picking those weapons up, what

    8 we took away from the Muslim soldiers, and those

    9 soldiers, the UN soldiers, took those weapons to the

    10 weapon depot in Srebrenica.

    11 Q. But Corporal Vaasen, during your stay there,

    12 or rather when -- during your stay there, how often did

    13 it happen, how many times did you have to request that

    14 they lay down their weapons?

    15 A. Not many times.

    16 Q. Could you be more specific, please? Once?

    17 Twice?

    18 A. My experience was only two times.

    19 Q. You were at the observation point "M," OP-M.

    20 A. Yes, sir.

    21 Q. Beyond that OP, were there any fortified

    22 Muslim positions?

    23 A. Not that I can recall.

    24 Q. You told us about Captain Enwer yesterday, in

    25 yesterday's testimony.

  19. 1 A. Yes, sir.

    2 Q. Was he a man from the area, from the village

    3 of Jaglici perhaps?

    4 A. Yes, he was one of the people who lived in

    5 the village Jaglici.

    6 Q. And the formations under his command were in

    7 that village, weren't they?

    8 A. Yes, sir.

    9 Q. Did they have their own positions?

    10 A. No. They always lived in the village, and

    11 sometimes they went up to look at us.

    12 Q. This Captain Enwer was an officer. Could you

    13 tell us what was the formation that was under his

    14 command?

    15 A. Well, it was a local unit. It was not so

    16 big; it was about approximately 15 or 20 men.

    17 Q. Corporal Vaasen, you are a soldier, a

    18 professional soldier. Do you think that a unit of 15

    19 to 20 people, to be commanded by a captain -- after

    20 all, a captain is a relatively high rank in every

    21 army -- so don't you think that to have a captain

    22 command such a small unit, which is not larger than a

    23 platoon, perhaps, that it is not too much, to have a

    24 captain?

    25 A. Well, I don't know how they work in the

  20. 1 Muslim army, so I can't answer that.

    2 Q. Do you have any knowledge that on the 10th of

    3 July, in the vicinity of your OP, there was an armed

    4 clash between the members of the Muslim army

    5 themselves?

    6 A. That was later on, when they started to

    7 attack the enclave.

    8 Q. But the attack on the enclave began on the

    9 6th of July, didn't it?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. So the 10th of July came later, and I asked

    12 you if it was the 10th of July or perhaps some other

    13 date.

    14 A. I don't remember it anymore.

    15 Q. Would you know why did this clash break out

    16 between the Muslim soldiers? Do you know the reason

    17 for it?

    18 A. Well, the only experience I had between those

    19 groups was only when I was captured in Jaglici.

    20 Q. Were there any fatalities in that

    21 confrontation?

    22 A. Yes, sir.

    23 Q. Was there any pressure brought on you and

    24 your colleagues by Muslim commanders to take their

    25 families towards the base in Potocari?

  21. 1 A. No, there was no force. We had an agreement

    2 with Captain Enwer, and we took those women and

    3 children back to the base with us.

    4 Q. And some members of the Muslim army wanted to

    5 stay in Jaglici.

    6 A. Yes, sir.

    7 Q. Yesterday, you testified that there were

    8 several hundred Muslim soldiers in Jaglici.

    9 A. No, not in Jaglici. It was around the area.

    10 Q. I apologise. Lehovici.

    11 A. Yes, sir.

    12 Q. Several hundred. Could you be more specific?

    13 A. Well, I can't give you any numbers. I'm

    14 sorry.

    15 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

    16 I should like to show this witness his statement of the

    17 11th and 18th of November, 1999, which he gave to the

    18 investigators of the International Tribunal.

    19 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This will be

    20 Exhibit D5.

    21 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

    22 Q. Corporal Vaasen, is this your signature on

    23 the first page?

    24 A. Yes, sir.

    25 Q. And this is your statement?

  22. 1 A. Yes, sir.

    2 Q. On page 2, in the fifth paragraph on that

    3 page, fifth paragraph from the top, the fourth sentence

    4 says: "I saw 1.000 to 1.500 Muslim soldiers near the

    5 village called Lehovici who were walking in the

    6 northerly direction."

    7 A. Yes, sir.

    8 Q. So is that the figure, the number of soldiers

    9 that you can't remember today?

    10 A. Yes, sir.

    11 Q. In your testimony yesterday, you said that

    12 Muslims gathered in Jaglici and that they were short of

    13 ammunition.

    14 A. Yes, sir.

    15 Q. You knew about that?

    16 A. I didn't know.

    17 Q. I don't understand. You did not know whether

    18 they had enough ammunition?

    19 A. When we were captured, then they told us

    20 about their weapons, their ammunition, and how much

    21 they had.

    22 Q. Your platoon was held in captivity for three

    23 days, was it?

    24 A. We were six members, and we were there for

    25 three days.

  23. 1 Q. And why were you captured?

    2 A. It's the same thing that I said yesterday,

    3 because we were UN and, first of all, we were there for

    4 their protection, and also as a kind of shield.

    5 Q. Would you know -- were you aware of some

    6 other cases of the capture of UN members by Muslim

    7 forces?

    8 A. I don't know.

    9 Q. When your OP was shelled, or rather when fire

    10 was opened on your OP, were there any -- did you suffer

    11 any casualties?

    12 A. No, we didn't.

    13 Q. And was your OP damaged in any way, that is,

    14 directly hit by a shell?

    15 A. Yes, our OP was damaged. The first shell of

    16 the mortar, it came in the defence wall of our OP.

    17 Q. When you set off from Jaglici to Potocari,

    18 with the local population fleeing, could you tell us

    19 how many people were there all in all, that is, women,

    20 children, and everybody all told? How many?

    21 A. Well, we started with a small -- large

    22 group -- a small group, and the further we got to

    23 Potocari, the bigger the group went. And later, we had

    24 some 900 or 1.000 [Realtime transcript read in error

    25 "9.000"] people with us, maybe more.

  24. 1 Q. So on your way between Jaglici and Potocari,

    2 you were being joined by more people, so that there

    3 were 900, 1.000 people.

    4 A. Yes, and maybe more.

    5 Q. Can you tell us how many men were among them?

    6 A. Not many men. Most of them were old.

    7 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. In the transcript,

    8 it said that there were 9.000 people with you. You

    9 didn't say 9.000.

    10 [Realtime transcript read in error "JUDGE

    11 RODRIGUES:"]

    12 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't say 9.000.

    13 JUDGE RIAD: Then it has to be corrected in

    14 the transcript. Thank you.

    15 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

    16 Q. On the 11th, you arrived in Potocari

    17 sometime, in some hour of the night, didn't you?

    18 A. Yes, sir.

    19 Q. On the night between the 11th and the 12th of

    20 July, did you then know anything, have any information

    21 about the situation in the base and outside it?

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me.

    23 I have to interrupt you. It has to be corrected here

    24 because Judge Riad was the one who intervened, not

    25 Judge Rodrigues.

  25. 1 Yes, you may continue, Mr. Petrusic.

    2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    3 Mr. President.

    4 Q. Right. So we've arrived at the 12th of July

    5 now, and I think I was not answered my previous

    6 question, I'm afraid, and that is, the night between

    7 the 11th and the 12th of the July, my question was

    8 whether the witness had any information about that

    9 night within and around the compound.

    10 A. No, sir.

    11 Q. On the 12th of July, when you came on duty or

    12 when you started your day's work, you saw Serb

    13 soldiers.

    14 A. I don't know.

    15 Q. Was it the first time that on the 12th of

    16 July you spotted Serb soldiers in that area?

    17 A. Well, they came later.

    18 Q. When did they arrive?

    19 A. They arrived about, well, 3.00.

    20 Q. You testified yesterday that you had spotted

    21 Arkan's Tigers there.

    22 A. Yes, sir. When the Serb army entered the

    23 enclave, there were also Arkan's Tigers.

    24 Q. They had a typical insignia.

    25 A. Yes, sir.

  26. 1 Q. With the following words, "Arkan's Tigers"

    2 written on it; am I right?

    3 A. That's what they told me.

    4 Q. In addition to Arkan's Tigers, you testified

    5 that there were also the Drina Wolves who were there.

    6 Can you tell us anything about other soldiers? Judging

    7 by their insignia, were they any different from these

    8 two formations?

    9 A. Yes, sir, because the Drina Wolves had a

    10 badge with a wolf and there were also regular soldiers,

    11 and they had regular badges.

    12 Q. What do you mean by "regular badges"?

    13 A. Well, we searched in our pocketbook, and it

    14 was a normal sign.

    15 Q. Could you be more precise?

    16 A. Well, the Arkan's Tigers -- excuse me, the --

    17 Q. Excuse me. I'm sorry to interrupt you. I'm

    18 not referring to Arkan's Tigers or the Drina Wolves

    19 here. I'm interested in other soldiers belonging to

    20 other units. Could you be more precise as to the badge

    21 they were wearing?

    22 A. Yes. It was some kind of crown, and there

    23 were also the letters "HVO" on it.

    24 Q. What about the soldiers that came in with

    25 dogs? Did you notice their badges?

  27. 1 A. No, sir.

    2 Q. Were there any police units, uniformed police

    3 units there?

    4 A. I don't remember.

    5 Q. Yesterday you stated in evidence that the two

    6 formations we mentioned went from house to house,

    7 looting them, taking property away, and so on and so

    8 forth.

    9 MR. CAYLEY: Objection, Mr. President. I

    10 recall that's not what the witness said yesterday, and

    11 I think it should be clear both for the purposes of the

    12 record and the witness. The witness actually said

    13 yesterday, and I have it written in my notes, I recall

    14 from my notes, that it was the Drina Wolves who were

    15 actually clearing houses above the road. I think the

    16 witness can clarify that for the Court, but I do not

    17 believe he said that Arkan's Tigers were clearing

    18 houses above the road. But I think the witness can

    19 probably answer that question.

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

    21 Mr. Petrusic, how do you respond to this objection by

    22 Mr. Cayley?

    23 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Just a second,

    24 Your Honour. Let me check it in my notes. I should

    25 need probably more time for checking the record. But I

  28. 1 believe that Mr. Cayley is right. Yes.

    2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

    3 Mr. Petrusic.

    4 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] In any case,

    5 we can solve this dilemma with a question.

    6 Q. So was it only the Drina Wolves who looted

    7 the houses, or were there any other units in the area

    8 as well.

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

    10 Mr. Petrusic, you can ask that question of the

    11 witness. He was referring to Drina Wolves. You can

    12 also ask him whether there was any other formations as

    13 well.

    14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

    15 Q. Corporal Vaasen, were there any other units

    16 looting those houses?

    17 A. Not that I can recall anymore.

    18 Q. Corporal Vaasen, those units, that is, the

    19 soldiers from those units, threw incendiary bullets and

    20 grenades in those houses.

    21 A. Not all of the houses.

    22 Q. You're a professional soldier and I'm a

    23 layperson in that respect, but I do have some knowledge

    24 about it. As far as I know, when you throw an

    25 incendiary grenade, the whole area catches fire. In

  29. 1 this case, it would be the whole house.

    2 A. Yes, sir.

    3 Q. You stated yesterday, while you were shown

    4 Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/19, I should like to show you

    5 the same exhibit again, the same document, 5/19, and

    6 5/5.

    7 Mr. Vaasen, are these the houses that were

    8 broken into by Serb soldiers at the time?

    9 A. Yes, sir.

    10 Q. I think we can conclude that there is not a

    11 single burnt house here, in this particular area.

    12 A. That is correct, but I don't know how old the

    13 picture is.

    14 Q. This picture is a Prosecutor's Exhibit, and

    15 as far as I can tell, it was taken on the 7th of June,

    16 1996.

    17 A. It's possible.

    18 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could you

    19 please put Exhibit 5/5 on the ELMO, please.

    20 Q. We have a broader picture of the area on this

    21 exhibit, but the locality is the same. We can once

    22 again conclude that there are no burnt houses on this

    23 photograph. Is that correct, Mr. Vaasen? Would you

    24 agree with me?

    25 A. That is correct, sir, but I don't know how

  30. 1 old this picture is.

    2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] The Defence

    3 doesn't know either.

    4 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, if I can perhaps

    5 clarify a few matters.

    6 We're going to find out the exact dates. I

    7 do know that 5/5 is a helicopter shot that was taken

    8 long, long, long after these events. Mr. Petrusic, I'm

    9 sure, will also recall that when Mr. Ruez was

    10 testifying, he stated that in a number of these

    11 photographs that were taken where there is a date in

    12 the bottom right-hand corner, that they couldn't

    13 operate the date switches on the camera, and so that

    14 date may also be wrong. And although this witness

    15 cannot testify, Mr. Petrusic, I'm sure, is also well

    16 aware that many buildings were rebuilt in all areas of

    17 Bosnia long after the events with which we're

    18 discussing have taken place.

    19 So for the purposes of the record, these are

    20 not contemporary photographs that were taken

    21 immediately -- at the time of the event or immediately

    22 thereafter, and I will find out from my colleagues the

    23 exact date when these photographs were taken.

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,

    25 thank you, Mr. Cayley. We are not going to open a

  31. 1 debate here. We're just hearing the evidence at this

    2 moment. The witness is merely answering questions.

    3 But be that as it may, the Chamber is grateful for this

    4 clarification from you, Mr. Cayley. There will be

    5 questions by the Judges as well with the purpose of

    6 elucidating the matter, this one and others. Thank you

    7 very much, Mr. Cayley.

    8 Mr. Petrusic, you may continue.

    9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    10 Mr. President.

    11 Q. Mr. Vaasen, speaking of the houses, the ones

    12 that we have just seen on the ELMO, I should like to

    13 know whether you saw any civilians on that day, that

    14 is, before the incursion of Serb soldiers?

    15 A. No, sir.

    16 Q. Thank you. You told us that you had seen

    17 Serb soldiers looting the houses, and you also said

    18 that they were shooting and that you saw them taking

    19 drugs, if I'm correct in understanding your evidence.

    20 A. Yes, sir.

    21 Q. Could you explain that to us a little bit?

    22 Maybe the information I have is somewhat different.

    23 Could you explain this particular situation to us?

    24 They were breaking into these houses, they were

    25 shooting, they were taking drugs, everything at the

  32. 1 same time, or ...

    2 A. No, not at the same time. It was very

    3 clearly that the men who went inside, they came out

    4 with typewriters, telephones, and other stuff, I said

    5 that already yesterday, and they also -- I saw them

    6 take a lot of alcohol, we call it slivovitz. They also

    7 offered that to some of us; we refused it. Sometimes

    8 they took a break and started to drink and sniff

    9 cocaine.

    10 Q. And you were there, in their immediate

    11 vicinity?

    12 A. Yes, sir. Our orders were to observe them.

    13 Q. Did you have any orders to prevent them from

    14 engaging in these types of activities?

    15 A. No, we didn't have any order like that.

    16 Q. You testified that there had been several

    17 wounded persons to whom you offered assistance when

    18 Serb soldiers started shooting on the refugees, first

    19 of all, above their heads and then on them, and you

    20 told us that they sustained injuries on their limbs.

    21 A. I saw two female persons; one of them was

    22 shot in the leg and the other one was also shot in the

    23 leg and in the stomach.

    24 Q. At the UN base, there were some wounded

    25 people.

  33. 1 A. Yes, sir.

    2 Q. Did you perhaps suggest or do something about

    3 the transport of these wounded persons to the base?

    4 A. No, sir.

    5 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

    6 I think this is a convenient moment for a break.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

    8 very much, Mr. Petrusic, for this suggestion. We are

    9 now going to have a 20-minute break.

    10 --- Recess taken at 10.49 a.m.

    11 --- On resuming at 11.15 a.m.

    12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

    13 Mr. Petrusic, you may continue.

    14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

    15 Q. Corporal Vaasen, before the evacuation of

    16 refugees from Potocari began, could you tell us how

    17 many people were there, in your estimate?

    18 A. When I returned to the UN compound, you

    19 mean?

    20 Q. You return to the base on the 11th of July.

    21 So the evacuation started on the 12th of July, sometime

    22 in the afternoon. And at that time, before the

    23 evacuation.

    24 A. There were many people, thousands of them.

    25 Q. Could you tell us how many men were there? I

  34. 1 mean, between the ages of 18 onward.

    2 A. I don't know anymore.

    3 Q. Could you tell us how many men were separated

    4 and taken to the White House, according to your

    5 knowledge?

    6 A. I don't recall it anymore.

    7 Q. On the 12th and the 13th of July, General

    8 Mladic visited that area, didn't he?

    9 A. He arrived at -- actually, I saw him on the

    10 12th of July, yes.

    11 Q. Did you see him on the 13th as well?

    12 A. I don't know anymore.

    13 Q. And the officer that was shown on that

    14 photograph yesterday and the day before yesterday, that

    15 was Exhibit 28/13, so the officer sitting to the left

    16 of General Mladic, we see it on the ELMO --

    17 A. Yes, sir.

    18 Q. -- did you also see him on the 12th and the

    19 13th of July?

    20 A. Both days.

    21 Q. Could you tell us whether your impression was

    22 that, in the absence of General Mladic, it was this

    23 man, this officer, who played the main role, who had

    24 the main say in that area?

    25 A. Yes, sir.

  35. 1 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

    2 I'm about to finish, but before I do so, I should like

    3 to go back to the incident of the 12th of July, in the

    4 evening, that is, the rape, as described by the

    5 witness, the rape which took place behind the factory

    6 compound.

    7 Q. Corporal Vaasen, you're also a medical

    8 worker, you're a paramedic, aren't you?

    9 A. Yes, sir.

    10 Q. And it was dark, but when you switched on the

    11 lamp, then you saw bruises on her thighs.

    12 A. Yes, sir.

    13 Q. Corporal Vaasen, do you -- would you think

    14 that, from a medical point of view, some time must

    15 elapse between receiving a blow until the emergence of

    16 a bruise?

    17 A. I don't understand.

    18 Q. Well, if one concludes that that girl was

    19 beaten, that she suffered a blow on her thighs, don't

    20 you think that there is a certain time lag between the

    21 blow and the bruise?

    22 A. Well, if you hit somebody or forced somebody

    23 to do things, then actually it started real fast, the

    24 blue things on her legs, the bruises.

    25 Q. Corporal Vaasen, how many hanged men did you

  36. 1 see?

    2 A. Well, there were two persons; one was lying

    3 on the girl and the other was standing guard.

    4 Q. My question was about men who had hanged

    5 themselves.

    6 A. In the factory, yes, I saw a couple of men,

    7 yes, who had hanged themselves.

    8 Q. Could you be more specific?

    9 A. Well, I saw three or four men hanging there.

    10 Q. When the evacuation began, the men were being

    11 separated on the basis of some criterion. Was it age?

    12 A. Well, they started about the age of 16, 17

    13 years old.

    14 Q. And the others boarded the buses.

    15 A. Yes. The men who got separated got boarded

    16 on the buses.

    17 Q. Do you know how many convoys were escorted by

    18 members of UN forces?

    19 A. I don't know.

    20 Q. And to conclude, Corporal Vaasen, on the 14th

    21 of July, when you went to Srebrenica, who were you with

    22 on that occasion? Could you tell us?

    23 A. Yes. We were mixed up with B Company, and I

    24 don't know those soldiers by name.

    25 Q. Thank you, Corporal Vaasen. I have no more

  37. 1 questions.

    2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    3 Your Honours.

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    5 Mr. Petrusic.

    6 Mr. Cayley.

    7 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I have no

    8 questions for the witness.

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    10 Mr. Cayley.

    11 Judge Riad.

    12 Questioned by the Court:

    13 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Yes,

    14 Mr. President. Thank you, Mr. President.

    15 [In English] Corporal Vaasen, good morning.

    16 A. Good morning.

    17 JUDGE RIAD: Do you hear me?

    18 A. Yes, I hear you.

    19 JUDGE RIAD: I have a few questions to

    20 clarify some points, although you have been quite

    21 clear. You mentioned that on the 12th of July, you saw

    22 the Serb army, I'm almost quoting you, coming from

    23 Bratunac, heavily armed with RPGs, with anti-tank

    24 weapons, with Russian-type tanks. Is this a Serb army

    25 or a Bosnian Serb army? What kind of army was it?

  38. 1 A. Well, they had the marks -- the badges from

    2 the HVO, and the soldiers who were walking in front of

    3 them were Arkan's Tigers.

    4 JUDGE RIAD: Arkan's Tigers.

    5 A. Yes, sir.

    6 JUDGE RIAD: And was it -- you said it was

    7 quite a substantial power, a substantial force. Was

    8 there a situation -- did the situation require such a

    9 force? Was there a real battle there? Were the

    10 Bosnian forces equivalent to have all this military

    11 force?

    12 A. No, Your Honour.

    13 JUDGE RIAD: It was not.

    14 A. No.

    15 JUDGE RIAD: Now that you mentioned the

    16 Arkan's Tigers, you seem to be quite acquainted with

    17 the insignias, you can know the insignia of the Arkan

    18 Tigers, you know the insignia of the Drina Wolves, as

    19 we saw --

    20 A. Yes, sir.

    21 JUDGE RIAD: -- and then you mentioned

    22 something called regular soldiers.

    23 A. Yes, your Honour.

    24 JUDGE RIAD: Does it mean that the Drina

    25 Wolves were not regular soldiers? Were they an

  39. 1 independent unity under independent command?

    2 A. Yes, Your Honour.

    3 JUDGE RIAD: You mean they were not subject

    4 to the same higher command?

    5 A. Not at the moment, sir.

    6 JUDGE RIAD: They could have their own

    7 policy.

    8 A. Yes, Your Honour.

    9 JUDGE RIAD: Yes. Now, in these events,

    10 several events which you mentioned, for instance,

    11 certain events which -- like the burning of the houses,

    12 the plundering of the houses, throwing phosphorous

    13 grenades, and the other one where you were stopped and

    14 they told you that if they kill one or two more, it

    15 doesn't make any difference, when you interfered and

    16 told them to stop what they were doing, was it the

    17 Drina Corps which was visible?

    18 A. Yes, Your Honour.

    19 JUDGE RIAD: And were you close enough to

    20 know?

    21 A. Yes, Your Honour.

    22 JUDGE RIAD: Because in the case of the

    23 people who you said stopped you and laughed at you and

    24 threatened you not to interfere, you were close enough

    25 in that case. But in the case of the plundering of the

  40. 1 houses and the phosphorus and so on, were you close

    2 enough to know that they were the Drina Corps?

    3 A. No, Your Honour.

    4 JUDGE RIAD: You were not.

    5 A. No, Your Honour.

    6 JUDGE RIAD: Then how did you detect that it

    7 was the Drina Corps?

    8 A. Because the same group that went inside was

    9 also the same group we stopped -- tried to stop.

    10 JUDGE RIAD: And the group you tried to stop

    11 was Drina.

    12 A. Yes, Your Honour.

    13 JUDGE RIAD: Now, these Drina Wolves, these

    14 Drina Wolves, as you said, they were an independent

    15 unit. Was it disciplined, as disciplined as the army?

    16 Was it organised under very strict command, or just a

    17 band of anarchic fighters?

    18 A. Well, from my point of view, they looked like

    19 bandits. They were just doing something.

    20 JUDGE RIAD: I mean, everything can do what

    21 he likes, or were they receiving orders?

    22 A. Well, I haven't seen that they received

    23 orders. I saw only that they went to those houses and

    24 started plundering, shooting, throw grenades, and they

    25 enjoyed themselves real good.

  41. 1 JUDGE RIAD: So it did not give you the

    2 impression of a disciplined -- you are an army man --

    3 of a disciplined unit of the army.

    4 A. No, they were not so quite disciplined as the

    5 rest of the army.

    6 JUDGE RIAD: The Arkan Tigers were different?

    7 A. Yes, Your Honour.

    8 JUDGE RIAD: The Arkan Tigers were supposed

    9 to be Bosnian Serbs or more or less Serbs?

    10 A. What I can recall, Serbs.

    11 JUDGE RIAD: Serbs. You mentioned also

    12 something about hunting Muslim people and killing them

    13 when they were found. These hunts, were also the Drina

    14 Corps involved in it?

    15 A. I don't remember it. I only heard the

    16 screams and the noises, the shots, the sound of a wolf,

    17 but I presumed it was the Drina Wolves.

    18 JUDGE RIAD: In all these events, have you

    19 had a glimpse of General Krstic?

    20 A. No, sir.

    21 JUDGE RIAD: You also mentioned that in the

    22 centre -- I think, yes, it was yesterday -- in the

    23 centre of Srebrenica, or perhaps today, the

    24 blackmarket, what you called the blackmarket, was full

    25 of bodies, 40 to 50 people, and they were civilians,

  42. 1 women, children, and old people.

    2 A. Yes, Your Honour.

    3 JUDGE RIAD: Have you found out what caused

    4 this great mass murder?

    5 A. Well, I knew that Bravo Company, who was

    6 stationed in Srebrenica, had to withdraw back to the

    7 blackmarket, to the square, and they had to stand there

    8 and to help Muslim people, because they were scattered

    9 around there. And I also -- I was also informed that

    10 most of the people were killed during the retreat to

    11 the UN base in Potocari.

    12 JUDGE RIAD: I mean, this was in the

    13 blackmarket.

    14 A. Yes, sir.

    15 JUDGE RIAD: I mean, women and children, what

    16 is the relation between this and the retreat of the

    17 army?

    18 A. Well, Bravo Company had also suffered from

    19 heavy fire, and when they --

    20 JUDGE RIAD: Fire directed towards the

    21 civilians.

    22 A. Civilians, and also on UN soldiers.

    23 JUDGE RIAD: From where? Who?

    24 A. From the hills.

    25 JUDGE RIAD: From the hills. And who was in

  43. 1 the hills?

    2 A. The Serb army.

    3 JUDGE RIAD: The Bosnian Serbs.

    4 A. Yes, sir.

    5 JUDGE RIAD: But not the Drina Corps, you

    6 cannot --

    7 A. No. No.

    8 JUDGE RIAD: -- determine.

    9 A. No, sir.

    10 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you said every time you met

    11 Muslim units, you disarmed them and took their

    12 weapons. Was there any clash between your forces,

    13 between the UN, and the Muslim fighters, or was it --

    14 or did they comply with your orders?

    15 A. Well, they weren't happy with those orders,

    16 but we were very clear that they had to give up those

    17 weapons. It's the agreement that we made with them, so

    18 they couldn't do anything about it.

    19 JUDGE RIAD: But you were not ordered to do

    20 the same thing with the others, with the other Bosnian

    21 Serbs.

    22 A. No, Your Honour.

    23 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Corporal Vaasen.

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

    25 very much, Judge Riad.

  44. 1 Judge Wald.

    2 JUDGE WALD: Corporal, when you first came to

    3 the Srebrenica area and you were at OP Mike, were you

    4 aware of which part of the Bosnian Serb army was in

    5 authority in that area? I mean, did somebody tell you

    6 that it was this battalion or this corps, so that you

    7 knew who you were dealing with?

    8 A. No, Your Honour.

    9 JUDGE WALD: They didn't tell you -- nobody

    10 said that "This is such and such a battalion" or "such

    11 and such a corps of the Bosnian Serb army that's in

    12 control"?

    13 A. No, Your Honour.

    14 JUDGE WALD: But you did mention several

    15 other times in your testimony that you knew somebody

    16 was the Drina Corps, you mentioned in answering Judge

    17 Riad's questions. So at what point did you become

    18 aware that there were soldiers from the Drina Corps in

    19 the area?

    20 A. Well, it was very clear the day that they

    21 arrived. They had the badges on their shoulders --

    22 JUDGE WALD: You're talking the day you

    23 arrived where, in Potocari or in the area of

    24 Srebrenica?

    25 A. I was standing at the human barricade when

  45. 1 they arrived.

    2 JUDGE WALD: Okay. So before that, you had

    3 no idea, for instance, that the soldiers who were

    4 shelling the OP posts, et cetera, you didn't know to

    5 what battalion or corps they belonged?

    6 A. No, Your Honour.

    7 JUDGE WALD: You mentioned that the people in

    8 the Potocari compound got even more scared, I think you

    9 said, when they found out that both the Arkan Tigers

    10 and the Drina Wolves were there. What was there about

    11 the Drina Wolves that would be likely to make the

    12 refugees feel even more scared than other soldiers

    13 being there?

    14 A. Well, we -- the expression of their faces was

    15 very clear, that when they arrived, they got more

    16 scared and more nervous, and the tension -- the feeling

    17 of them, you could feel it even also there.

    18 JUDGE WALD: In your knowledge, to your

    19 knowledge, had you heard things that would make you, if

    20 you had been a refugee, to feel more apprehensive about

    21 the Drina Wolves? Did they have a special reputation

    22 of some sort?

    23 A. Yes, Your Honour.

    24 JUDGE WALD: What was that?

    25 A. Ethnic cleansing.

  46. 1 JUDGE WALD: And were you aware when you saw

    2 the Drina Wolves that the Drina Wolves were somehow

    3 part of the Drina Corps?

    4 A. Yes, Your Honour.

    5 JUDGE WALD: You were aware of that.

    6 My second question is when you went back to

    7 Srebrenica, you told us you went back there, and when

    8 you saw the terrible sight of all the bodies, who, to

    9 your knowledge or in your observation, was left living

    10 in Srebrenica? I mean, were there any Muslim civilians

    11 left that you know about? Were there some Serbs left?

    12 Who was left in the village of Srebrenica after the

    13 evacuations from Potocari?

    14 A. Well, after the evacuation of Potocari, it

    15 was real fast, because when those Muslim refugees were

    16 gone, the Serb people were standing -- yes, were

    17 standing right in front of the gate to enter the

    18 enclave.

    19 JUDGE WALD: That was Potocari, right?

    20 A. Yes, Potocari.

    21 JUDGE WALD: How about Srebrenica? When you

    22 went back to Srebrenica and saw all the dead bodies,

    23 were there any living people around there still living

    24 in Srebrenica?

    25 A. No, Your Honour.

  47. 1 JUDGE WALD: It was an empty town, so far as

    2 you could tell; is that right?

    3 A. Yes, Your Honour.

    4 JUDGE WALD: Okay. The same thing you

    5 started to answer in Potocari. Once all the

    6 evacuations were finished on the 14th, you were left in

    7 Potocari for another week. To the best of your

    8 observation, who else was left in Potocari, either in

    9 the compound or in the houses or areas around the

    10 compound?

    11 A. Well, I'm sure that only the Dutch Battalion,

    12 the UN Battalion, was there, and I also saw that Serb

    13 people, civilians, were also going into the enclave,

    14 plundering, and I saw them even go back -- they went in

    15 with cars -- with empty cars, and they came back with

    16 washing machines, VCRs, everything that they found on

    17 the way.

    18 JUDGE WALD: During that week that you were

    19 left in the compound in Potocari, did you see any

    20 Muslim civilians of any sort, men, women, children,

    21 old, young, anybody?

    22 A. No, Your Honour.

    23 JUDGE WALD: Thank you, Corporal.

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

    25 very much, Judge Wald.

  48. 1 Corporal Vaasen, I also have a few questions

    2 for you. You spoke about Arkan's Tigers, Drina Wolves,

    3 dog handlers, and regular troops. When you mentioned

    4 those regular troops, in answering one of

    5 Mr. Petrusic's questions, you said that they had a

    6 particular badge with a crown on it, and you also

    7 stated that the letters "HVO" were on it. Are you

    8 absolutely certain about that, that those were, indeed,

    9 the letters "HVO" or rather could it have been some

    10 other letters?

    11 A. No, Your Honour, you could clearly see it.

    12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] "HVO".

    13 A. Yes, Your Honour.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I do not

    15 want to lead you in any manner, but let me just tell

    16 you that the letters "HVO" are used in the context of

    17 Croatian soldiers. Here, we are dealing with Bosnian

    18 Serb soldiers. Having said that, I should like to know

    19 whether you are still sure that the letters in question

    20 were, indeed, "HVO".

    21 A. Yes, Your Honour, because they had different

    22 kinds of clothes. They also had our clothes already.

    23 They had their regular uniforms and they also were

    24 dressed in those uniforms.

    25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

  49. 1 very much.

    2 Mr. Usher, could you check whether Exhibit

    3 5/19 is still on the ELMO, please.

    4 As regards this particular photograph,

    5 Corporal Vaasen, I should like to ask you the following

    6 question: You see a number of houses here on the

    7 photograph. Could you tell us whether the state of

    8 repair of these houses is the same as the one that you

    9 saw at the time, when houses were being torched, or do

    10 you think that there is any difference between the

    11 situation now and then?

    12 A. I don't remember, Your Honour.

    13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

    14 Thank you anyway. I think that you have already said

    15 this in response to my colleague's question, but let me

    16 ask it once again. Do you know General Krstic?

    17 A. No, Your Honour.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you have

    19 never seen General Krstic in the field, or anywhere

    20 else.

    21 A. No, Your Honour.

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    23 And my last question for you. You are a military man

    24 and you are accustomed to functioning within an

    25 organisation, and you respect discipline. If we take

  50. 1 these two elements into account, organisation and

    2 discipline, and bearing in mind your experience and

    3 what you were able to observe in the area at the

    4 relevant time, in your opinion, was there any

    5 organisation in the events you told us about? Was

    6 there any discipline as well?

    7 A. Well, during the deportation of the Muslim

    8 refugees, there was some kind of discipline. But for

    9 the rest of it, there was no discipline.

    10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What about

    11 the level of organisation? Did you have an impression

    12 that there, indeed, had been an organisation which was

    13 behind this discipline?

    14 A. I don't know.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    16 Thank you very much, Corporal Vaasen, for coming here

    17 to testify before the International Tribunal. We know

    18 you have just had to experience once again your

    19 ordeal. Let me say once again that the Chamber is

    20 thankful for your testimony, and I hope that you will

    21 be able, one day, to find peace in this beautiful

    22 country of yours. Thank you very much.

    23 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

    24 before we let the witness go, I should like to know the

    25 status of Exhibit 57 and Defence Exhibit D5.

  51. 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

    2 Mr. Cayley.

    3 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Mr. President. Exhibit 57

    4 is the patch which the witness identified as having

    5 seen on the arm of a member of the Drina Wolves. If

    6 there are no objections from the Defence, I'd like to

    7 apply for that -- for admission into evidence of that

    8 exhibit, please. And we certainly have no objections

    9 in respect of Exhibit D5, which is the witness's

    10 statement.

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,

    12 Mr. Cayley.

    13 Mr. Petrusic, are there any objections as

    14 regards the admission of Exhibit 57? And do you wish

    15 to tender D5 into evidence?

    16 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

    17 we do not object to the exhibit tendered by

    18 Mr. Cayley. However, I should -- could you please

    19 repeat your second question, Your Honour, as regards

    20 this other exhibit?

    21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I

    22 thought you were going to ask for your exhibit, D5, to

    23 be admitted into evidence.

    24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that is

    25 the case, Your Honour.

  52. 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Therefore,

    2 Exhibits 57 and D5 will be admitted into evidence,

    3 Mr. Dubuisson.

    4 Very well, then. Corporal Vaasen, you have

    5 heard a number of questions by the Prosecutor, by the

    6 Defence, and by the Judges as well. At the end of your

    7 testimony, I should like to know whether there is

    8 anything else that you wish to add to what you have

    9 said here in evidence.

    10 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour.

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    12 Corporal Vaasen, once again.

    13 [The witness withdrew]

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon

    15 or Mr. Cayley.

    16 MR. CAYLEY: We do have another witness,

    17 Mr. President, but you might feel it's the appropriate

    18 time to take a break because we have to rearrange

    19 ourselves here. And rather than do that in front of

    20 the Judges, it may be easier.

    21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

    22 Mr. Dubuisson has drawn my attention to a particular

    23 fact. For the purposes of the public principle of the

    24 hearing, I should like to know whether your next

    25 witness is a protected one.

  53. 1 MR. CAYLEY: He is a protected witness,

    2 Mr. President, yes.

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Sorry to

    4 insist, but I should like to know what the reasons for

    5 his application are and what kind of protective

    6 measures you're seeking.

    7 MR. CAYLEY: Actually, I think my colleague

    8 Mr. McCloskey will answer the question, but it might be

    9 an idea that we go into closed session before he

    10 actually discusses the reason for the protection.

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] For the

    12 public gallery, I should therefore stress that our next

    13 witness will be testifying in closed session, and we

    14 will now go into private session to discuss the reasons

    15 for his seeking protective measures.

    16 Are we in private session?

    17 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

    18 Honour, we are.

    19 [Closed session]

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  54. 1












    13 page 1485 redacted - closed session













  55. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.

    16 --- On resuming at 12.21 p.m.

    17 [Open session]

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

    19 Mr. McCloskey.

    20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. We're

    21 ready for the next witness, who I believe will be

    22 Witness F.

    23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Has it been

    24 resolved yet?

    25 Could you repeat, please, from the beginning,

  56. 1 Mr. McCloskey, because I was not getting the French

    2 interpretation.

    3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Your Honour. I believe

    4 this is Witness F that we are ready for, and we are all

    5 ready to go.

    6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Indeed, this

    7 will be Witness F, and there is nobody in the public

    8 gallery of this hearing. The debate can be followed on

    9 the ground floor.

    10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Will you

    11 please bring the witness in.

    12 [The witness entered court]

    13 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, he will

    14 be testifying in Dutch.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just a

    16 preliminary question. Mr. McCloskey, will you be

    17 showing any exhibits on the ELMO?

    18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps we

    20 could move -- then perhaps the interpreter and the

    21 witness could change places, so that the witness is

    22 closer to the ELMO.

    23 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's an excellent idea.

    24 Could we try that out?

    25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Would you

  57. 1 please put your headsets on? Could you please switch

    2 places? Will you put your earphones on, please?

    3 MR. McCLOSKEY: He needs a headset.

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can you

    5 hear me, Witness F? You can hear? Very well. Witness

    6 F, that is what we shall call you, in view of the

    7 protective measures that have been granted to you. You

    8 will now read the solemn declaration which the usher

    9 will give you.

    10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

    11 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

    12 and nothing but the truth.


    14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And now the

    16 interpretation for the interpreter.

    17 THE INTERPRETER: [Interpretation] I solemnly

    18 declare that I will perform my duty professionally and

    19 with full respect for confidentiality.

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness F,

    21 thank you for coming. The registrar will now show you

    22 a piece of paper with your name on it. You will only

    23 say if this is your name or not.

    24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

    25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So this is

  58. 1 your name. Very well. Now you will answer questions

    2 which the Prosecutor, Mr. McCloskey, will be asking of

    3 you.

    4 Mr. McCloskey.

    5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

    6 Examined by Mr. McCloskey:

    7 Q. Witness F, you are currently a member of the

    8 Dutch army; is that correct?

    9 A. That's correct.

    10 Q. And in 1995, were you assigned as a

    11 peacekeeping mission in Bosnia as a Dutch soldier?

    12 A. That's correct.

    13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please

    14 come closer to the microphone or speak up.

    15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me. Can the witness

    16 please get a little closer to the microphone.

    17 A. I left in January for Potocari, in

    18 Srebrenica.

    19 Q. What was your mission in Bosnia at that time?

    20 A. Our mission was humanitarian, the disarming

    21 of any Muslim fighters we might find, reconnaissance

    22 duties, patrols along the border area and between the

    23 OPs in the enclave.

    24 Q. What OPs were you assigned to?

    25 A. My main OPs were mainly OP Papa, at the main

  59. 1 entrance to the enclave, and later on OP ^ Sierra.

    2 Q. Did you ever work with Corporal Vaasen on an

    3 OP?

    4 A. No, I have never been with Vaasen on an OP.

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me,

    6 Mr. McCloskey, the interpreters say that they did not

    7 understand the question. So could you repeat it,

    8 please?

    9 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] I should --

    10 and I should now like to seize the opportunity to say

    11 that we have yet one more mediator in our chain of

    12 interpretation and communication. So will you please

    13 pause between every question and answer because we have

    14 to take a number of relays. We now have a second relay

    15 here.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In other

    17 words, normally, we need to make a pause between the

    18 question and answer, but in this case, according to

    19 what Mr. Dubuisson tells us, we also have to make at

    20 least two pauses. Thank you.

    21 MR. McCLOSKEY:

    22 Q. Did you work with Corporal Vaasen on any of

    23 the OPs during your time in the Srebrenica enclave?

    24 A. No, I have never been with Corporal Vaasen.

    25 I've never worked with him on an OP. I've never worked

  60. 1 with Corporal Vaasen on an OP.

    2 Q. And can you describe the kinds of military

    3 weapons you saw that the Muslim army had at the various

    4 times that you were working there?

    5 A. The Muslim army consisted of mainly lightly

    6 armed military, mortars, hand mortars, AK-47s of

    7 Russian make, hand grenades, shell hand grenades, and

    8 light machine-guns, and some pistols. They also had

    9 self-made weapons, home-made weapons. They were very

    10 creative, and most of those weapons were in the

    11 compound in Srebrenica, on stock.

    12 Q. Did you notice a change in the quantity or

    13 quality of their weaponry as we get closer to July of

    14 1995?

    15 A. The more the situation of tension came near

    16 by and the pressure in the area arose, we suspected

    17 that there were helicopter droppings, and after that we

    18 saw men in better military uniforms, they had better

    19 arms, better weapons, they had new shoes, they had

    20 better equipment, and certainly they were better

    21 prepared.

    22 Q. Did they have any large equipment?

    23 A. Not so much. Most of the large material had

    24 been confiscated by the 12th Battalion at the time, and

    25 it was in the compound in Srebrenica.

  61. 1 Q. Did you ever see any armour in the hands of

    2 the Muslim soldiers prior or during the fall of the

    3 enclave.

    4 A. One time, when I arrived at the beginning of

    5 January, I saw one Muslim fighter with an AK, and he

    6 ran off as fast as he could. That was the only thing I

    7 saw.

    8 Q. Did you ever see the Muslim army with a tank?

    9 A. One time, one of my colleagues observed a

    10 tank.

    11 Q. Did you see it personally?

    12 A. Negative.

    13 Q. On July 11th, when the town of Potocari fell,

    14 what was your assignment that day?

    15 A. On that day, we were understaffed already.

    16 We had worked hard, we were together, and we had to

    17 take extra duties on the OP and in the compound. And

    18 my place was a certain place in the building with a

    19 machine-gun post, directed towards OP Papa.

    20 Q. And where was that place?

    21 A. That place was not in the large corridor, but

    22 in a separate building, with a view to the northern

    23 side of the enclave.

    24 Q. And how high up were you?

    25 A. On the second floor of the building. The

  62. 1 building only consisted of two floors.

    2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, at this time,

    3 I would like to show the witness the Exhibit 5/2. If

    4 you can put that on the ELMO.

    5 Q. Witness, if you could look directly at the

    6 exhibit as opposed to the ELMO, you may get a better

    7 look at it. And if you could study it for a moment.

    8 Do you recognise this photograph?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Is this the area outlined in yellow the UN

    11 base, as it's marked?

    12 A. That's correct.

    13 Q. Now, do you see the area of the UN base where

    14 you were actually located on the second floor?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Would you take the green marking pencil

    17 that's in front of you and circle the area.

    18 A. [Marks]

    19 Q. And would you put your initials next to

    20 that? Actually, strike that. Just put "F" next to it,

    21 please.

    22 A. [Marks]

    23 Q. Now, about what time did you first go to that

    24 lookout spot?

    25 A. Early in the morning, after we had gotten the

  63. 1 orders, the weapons were distributed and the equipment,

    2 and the task duties were given out.

    3 Q. At some point in the day, did you notice

    4 activity, military activity, in the area where you were

    5 watching out?

    6 A. That's correct. There was more and more

    7 shooting in the area. We heard heavy engine sounds

    8 from all directions, especially from the northern

    9 direction. At the eastern side, there was heavy

    10 battery sound, but on that day, they mostly came from

    11 the northern side, ever more engine sounds, smoke,

    12 shooting. From time to time, we saw Muslim fighters

    13 with mortars. They just fired them and then they ran

    14 back. And that's how it went for quite a while.

    15 Q. Do you see the area on this exhibit where you

    16 could see Muslim fighters with mortars?

    17 A. I can't see the Muslim fighters, but I know

    18 the area, of course. Yes, I can see it.

    19 Q. Could you just point out the area where you

    20 saw the Muslim fighters with mortars?

    21 A. [Indicates]. Here and here and here.

    22 MR. McCLOSKEY: The record should indicate

    23 that he indicated he saw Muslim fighters on both sides

    24 of the UN base, up in the hill area, as well as the

    25 northern side of the UN base.

  64. 1 Q. Now, can you describe the scene as you

    2 witnessed it that morning.

    3 A. That morning, I was with my colleague, we

    4 went to fetch water, and we saw more and more movements

    5 of those Muslim fighters. They were grouping

    6 themselves and redisappeared into the woods. From our

    7 point, viewing point, we saw, towards the direction of

    8 houses and OP Papa, we heard fighting coming from

    9 there, fighting sounds. And later that day, and I

    10 don't know the exact times, more Serbs started coming

    11 in. We saw smoke arise around OP Papa and on both

    12 sides of the hill, more shooting, more heavy engine

    13 sounds, tank sounds. And the Muslim fighters were very

    14 nervous, and they started to disappear into the woods,

    15 they ran off.

    16 On the eastern side, there were a couple of

    17 Muslim fighters firing mortars at, I think, Serb

    18 materiel, and they were taken under heavy machine-gun

    19 fire.

    20 Q. Did you have an opportunity to photograph the

    21 smoke in the area of OP Papa that day?

    22 A. Yes. My position was such that I had a good

    23 view at the incoming materiel, the infantry, in such a

    24 way that I also saw the houses at OP Papa's main

    25 entrance. And indeed, I had a couple of pictures in my

  65. 1 camera, I took pictures of houses on fire and the smoke

    2 of a tank, a Russian tank's oil fire -- I'm sorry, oil

    3 smoke, very heavy smoke.

    4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we present the witness

    5 with Exhibit 63.

    6 Q. Now, is this -- does this photograph depict

    7 what you were able to photograph that day?

    8 A. That's correct.

    9 Q. Would you point at the various smoke plumes

    10 that you see and tell us anything that you can about

    11 them?

    12 A. This was my position [indicates]. This was a

    13 hill with mainly Serb positions. They also had cannons

    14 which had been observed before --

    15 Q. Excuse me. When you point to something, we

    16 have to get it on the record, so please listen

    17 carefully to the question and try to answer the

    18 question as particularly as you can.

    19 Could you first point to the smoke that you

    20 noticed and tell us what you can about the various

    21 smoke plumes?

    22 A. These are smoke plumes arising from houses.

    23 In this area -- there was OP Papa in this area. In

    24 this area [indicates] we had an open field which was

    25 behind OP Papa. Here on this hill, against this hill,

  66. 1 were Serb positions. We were told that there was a

    2 minefield here [indicates], and later on it turned out

    3 not to be true. This smoke plume came from a T-55

    4 tank, a Russian tank --

    5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me, again. Can the

    6 record reflect that there is a dark smoke plume in the

    7 middle of the photograph that the witness has described

    8 as coming from a tank. And that the mountain behind

    9 the smoke he earlier described is an area where there

    10 were Serb positions.

    11 Q. The other smoke in the area, can you describe

    12 what you believe that to be from?

    13 A. Those other smoke plumes came from houses in

    14 that area. Most of them were set afire. It shows

    15 clearly from the white smoke plumes, it was very dry in

    16 that area, so those houses burnt with white smoke and

    17 not with dark smoke. Dark smoke comes from oil. And

    18 behind this tree line here [indicates], all those fires

    19 were set ablaze. Sometimes we even saw the flames.

    20 And those are the only pictures I took from this area.

    21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Again, the witness was

    22 pointing to the more whitish smoke plume on the right

    23 side of the picture, and then going even more over to

    24 the right, describing the smoke he was able to see and

    25 sometimes flames.

  67. 1 Q. Can you describe what you saw shortly after

    2 taking this photograph?

    3 A. Well, what we observed was very nervous

    4 Muslim fighters at the time, sounds -- the tank and

    5 materiel sound coming closer. Along the tree line,

    6 along the fields, there came a very well-organised

    7 group of infantry units with a tank before them. This

    8 tank which I showed you, the tank with the dark smoke,

    9 it was indeed a Russian tank of the type T-55. And to

    10 the left of the compound, there were organised military

    11 men, and to the right, also organised military, and

    12 they cleansed all the houses and looted everything that

    13 they could take.

    14 Q. Can you describe this first wave of what

    15 you've described as organised soldiers, what they were

    16 wearing, what they looked like?

    17 A. This first wave of an organised army

    18 consisted of well-disciplined infantry. They were

    19 dressed with helmets, beautiful, good camouflage suits,

    20 well-armed. They had several commanders, at least

    21 NCOs, who gave orders. They had good liaison

    22 materiel. The units were posted on both sides of the

    23 enclave and they had contact. That is how they

    24 advanced in line. And it was -- I had the impression

    25 that they were very well-organised, and I think I have

  68. 1 enough experience to judge this after my time in

    2 service.

    3 Q. What colour were their camouflage uniforms?

    4 A. On the right side of the compound from -- to

    5 my right-hand side, most of them were dressed in

    6 black. They were big, strong boys, strong guys,

    7 lightly armed. They had very good liaison materiel,

    8 carried on their backs mainly, and most of them were

    9 dressed in black. They also cleansed all the houses

    10 very thoroughly. And to the left, there was mainly

    11 infantry. They advanced across the field. To the

    12 left, there were fewer houses than to the right, so

    13 there were infantry in camouflage suits, helmets. They

    14 had machine-guns, AK-47s, grenades. It was an infantry

    15 unit, an ordinary infantry unit.

    16 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. You just mentioned

    17 also that they cleansed all the houses very

    18 thoroughly. I want to know the meaning of this word.

    19 Thank you.

    20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

    21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They cleansed

    22 or cleared the houses in such a way that they could be

    23 certain that there were no Muslim fighters or other

    24 people left behind. Their task was cleaning or

    25 cleansing out the whole area so that the units coming

  69. 1 after them could advance through this area.

    2 Q. And what colour camouflage did the unit you'd

    3 last described wear?

    4 A. Black.

    5 Q. So was this first wave of soldiers all

    6 dressed in black?

    7 A. To my right-hand side, yes, and they cleared

    8 out all the houses. And to the other side, there was

    9 infantry in camouflage and armed. To the right-hand

    10 side, there was more fighting than to the left.

    11 Q. But the soldiers on the left, they were also

    12 dressed in black; is that right?

    13 A. Some of them, yes.

    14 Q. And what were the others dressed as?

    15 A. Camouflage suits with helmets, and they were

    16 under the direct command of a group commander,

    17 sergeant, or a corporal, about that rank.

    18 Q. Did you see any soldiers in green camouflage

    19 together with the soldiers in black?

    20 A. Not at first, until they had advanced halfway

    21 towards the compound. If I could show it in a picture,

    22 but I don't have a picture here --

    23 Q. Again, we've gone back to Exhibit 5/2.

    24 A. So at first, those men dressed in black came

    25 along this line [indicates], they advanced along this

  70. 1 line, and they had several fighting incidents with the

    2 Muslim fighters --

    3 Q. Again, I'm sorry to interrupt, but for the

    4 record I have to show you that you're talking about

    5 from the bottom of the photo up towards the UN base,

    6 that is where the black soldiers advanced.

    7 A. So here were the soldiers dressed in black,

    8 and here was the organised army advancing in this

    9 direction as a corporal or a sergeant. Those black

    10 military men also advanced, and they cleared or

    11 cleansed out all the houses, and they organised

    12 themselves, or regrouped, around this spot

    13 [indicates] --

    14 Q. Indicating right where the "UN base" words

    15 are.

    16 A. So they organised here [indicates], military

    17 men in camouflage suits also advanced from this

    18 direction, from this hill down [indicates], so this

    19 whole area --

    20 Q. Again, for the record, we have to say from

    21 the hill on the left side of the photograph, military

    22 people in camouflage are advancing down towards the UN

    23 compound.

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

    25 Mr. McCloskey, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but could

  71. 1 you please ask the witness where was the position and

    2 the direction from which the photograph was taken, that

    3 is, Exhibit 63, if you could do that, please.

    4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. Thank you,

    5 Mr. President.

    6 Q. Now, could you tell the Court where your

    7 photograph was taken from and what direction the

    8 photograph -- what direction you were pointing the

    9 camera in when you took the photograph?

    10 A. Towards this direction [indicates].

    11 Q. I'm sorry. First can you tell us where you

    12 were when you took the photograph. Is that inside the

    13 little circle marked "F"?

    14 A. That's correct, in this dark building, which

    15 you see here [indicates].

    16 Q. And could you take your pointer again and

    17 point in the direction -- or just lay the pointer down

    18 in the direction your photograph was?

    19 A. [Indicates].

    20 Q. And the record should indicate he's pointing

    21 straight down to the bottom of the photograph. And

    22 that's in the direction of Bratunac, is it not?

    23 A. That's correct.

    24 Q. Now, when you saw these soldiers going into

    25 these houses, did you see them taking any property or

  72. 1 doing anything that you thought was not soldierly?

    2 A. This first wave mostly cleared out the

    3 houses, and they were certainly trained to do so.

    4 Immediately afterwards, there were some people who

    5 entered the houses and who took all their belongings,

    6 everything that was valuable, they just carried

    7 outside.

    8 Q. Can you describe who those people were, how

    9 they were dressed?

    10 A. They were dressed in camouflage. They were

    11 less well-organised. They were not under any direct

    12 command. They had -- so after this first infantry line

    13 had been through, they had to guard this area because

    14 there might still be some resistance, and they

    15 literally just spoiled themselves with other people's

    16 property.

    17 Q. Were both these units you've described

    18 Bosnian Serb army units?

    19 A. That's correct.

    20 Q. Were you able to watch all of this from your

    21 perch on the second floor?

    22 A. That's correct. It was an ideal point,

    23 looking towards the north and the east.

    24 Q. Did you see other soldiers, other Bosnian

    25 Serb soldiers, arrive in the area while you were still

  73. 1 up there?

    2 A. Yes. The units were replenished, more

    3 materiel was coming in, kind of replenishing units came

    4 in to replenish the troops advancing towards

    5 Srebrenica, bringing in more materiel. There were also

    6 officers amongst them and higher ranks, because this

    7 area was already cleared because the others had been

    8 through. And those units mainly consisted of what I

    9 would call Rambo-types, not disciplined units, and

    10 perhaps some reserve people.

    11 Q. And how were they dressed?

    12 A. They were mainly dressed in camouflage and

    13 also civilian, so most of them had camouflage trousers

    14 and a civilian shirt. It was a hot day. And this type

    15 of military were less well-trained physically. They

    16 were a bit fatter, they had bellies. They were also

    17 older than the first wave. They also had AK-47s with

    18 wooden butts, pistols. They had bandannas. The men

    19 with the machine-guns carried the machine-gun straps

    20 diagonally across their chest. They were smoking, they

    21 had cigarettes between their lips. So they were less

    22 disciplined.

    23 Q. Did you see other types of units come into

    24 the area?

    25 A. When the first wave had passed the compound

  74. 1 and the Rambo-types were around, were supposed to keep

    2 the area safe, more vehicles came in, military and

    3 civilian vehicles, also police vehicles, "police" was

    4 written on those vehicles. And I saw a blue tank which

    5 was very distinctive between all those blue -- between

    6 all those green. There were military polices, also

    7 some reporters, people in civilian clothes, et cetera.

    8 Q. Now, this blue vehicle that you saw, was it a

    9 tank or an armoured personnel carrier?

    10 A. It was not a tank. It was a vehicle on

    11 normal wheels, ordinary wheels. It's an armed vehicle

    12 to transport personnel. About 15 men would be

    13 transported with such a vehicle. Usually it's slightly

    14 armed with a machine-gun, such a vehicle.

    15 Q. Did you see any other blue vehicles in the

    16 vicinity of Potocari that day of a military type?

    17 A. Negative. Only the police cars. Most of

    18 them were Gulfs, Volkswagen Gulfs, type 1.

    19 Q. Did you see any soldiers in a blue

    20 military-style outfit?

    21 A. That's correct. They were dressed in blue

    22 uniforms, or jumpsuits, overalls with a black belt and

    23 pistol, and an AK. And some of them had an automatic

    24 weapon of German origin.

    25 Q. When did you first see these men in blue?

  75. 1 A. Later that day, after the first wave had

    2 passed and the compound was surrounded, and most people

    3 were there before, in front of the compound.

    4 Q. And were these Bosnian Serb soldiers, these

    5 people in blue?

    6 A. They were certainly Serbian police, army

    7 police, yes. They were subordinate to the government.

    8 Q. Did you see how these Serb army police acted

    9 throughout the day? Could you tell what role they

    10 played in the events of this day?

    11 A. They were present, mainly. Some of them

    12 entered the compound in order to look at the refugees,

    13 and my idea was that their task was mainly to secure

    14 the higher ranking officers, to keep them safe. I

    15 think a kind of military police, a kind of

    16 anti-terrorist unit, who had to guard the higher

    17 ranking people.

    18 Q. All right. Now, is it true that you remember

    19 these days as the first day, meaning the day that the

    20 Bosnian Serb soldiers arrive, and the second day,

    21 meaning the day that all the refugees were shipped out?

    22 A. That's correct.

    23 MR. McCLOSKEY: I may have misstated the

    24 date, Mr. President, on this, but we will just refer to

    25 this as the first day, then.

  76. 1 Q. How long did you stay up in your post on that

    2 first day?

    3 A. A couple of hours. And the day before that

    4 first day, we were also already there. We were

    5 understaffed, so I think -- I don't know the time

    6 anymore, but perhaps till about noon, around that time,

    7 we stopped.

    8 Q. Okay. On that first day that the soldiers

    9 arrived, what did you do after leaving the lookout

    10 area?

    11 A. After the Serbs had entered and the compound

    12 had been surrounded, we got orders to lay down our arms

    13 and to make ourselves visible, to show ourselves to the

    14 Serb units, to show that we would not use any violence

    15 against them, as a sign of that. We had to go out into

    16 the open and just wait and see what was going to

    17 happen.

    18 Q. Who gave you the order to lay down your arms?

    19 A. The order came from, at that time, my

    20 commander, Major Otter, and he, of course, also gets

    21 his orders from a higher hand, and it just filtered

    22 down.

    23 Q. After that, were you able to assist the

    24 refugees?

    25 A. Yes. We were already understaffed, and there

  77. 1 had been so many refugees that we had to give them

    2 help.

    3 Q. Can you describe how you personally helped

    4 them?

    5 A. The refugees had, of course, already arrived

    6 on our compound, and during the night, we tended to

    7 them, we comforted them. And the day when the arms

    8 were laid down, everybody went their own way. There

    9 was no direct chain of command anymore, and actually

    10 everybody assisted as they could. I myself mainly --

    11 well, it's probably not a proper expression, but what I

    12 did was put people on the buses, on trucks, on

    13 tractors. I was in command at the time, I was in the

    14 rank of a commander, so I -- there was no direct chain

    15 of command in this whole process, in this whole

    16 situation. So I directed others.

    17 Q. Did you help any refugees with their children

    18 or problems they had with their children?

    19 A. Correct. More and more refugees came into

    20 the compound. If I could just show you on the map from

    21 which direction. Our people had made a hole in the

    22 gate, in the fence, and the refugees came from this

    23 direction [indicates], onto the compound, and I was

    24 positioned in this area at the time.

    25 Q. Okay. May the record show that you're

  78. 1 speaking to an area just below the "Y" in "Blue

    2 Factory" on the outline of the yellow border of the UN

    3 compound.

    4 A. Many women and children came, many babies,

    5 mostly babies, with babies, babies who had swollen up.

    6 It was save yourselves. Older people were left

    7 behind. Everybody was just trying to get to safety,

    8 onto the compound. And several times, I held babies in

    9 my arms which were so swollen that they finally died.

    10 Q. Can you give us any kind of an estimate of

    11 how many deceased babies you had to take like that?

    12 A. About between 5 and 15, and perhaps even

    13 more. I didn't count at that moment.

    14 Q. Were any of the babies alive that were given

    15 you?

    16 A. Yes, some of them were still alive, but they

    17 were certainly undernourished. Usually the women would

    18 give me the babies because they just didn't know

    19 anymore what to do and what their future would bring.

    20 Q. And were you able to care for some of the

    21 babies that were still alive and get them some care?

    22 A. I, in turn, gave those babies to our medical

    23 staff, who at that point in time cared for the wounded,

    24 for the refugees, and for babies and children. I

    25 mainly was concerned with helping people into the

  79. 1 compound, and I gave the babies to the medical staff

    2 and I referred them to the medical staff.

    3 Q. Now, after that period where you were helping

    4 refugees into the compound, did you eventually go over

    5 to the area where people were being loaded on the

    6 buses?

    7 A. That's correct.

    8 Q. And what did you see over there?

    9 A. There was chaos on the compound. There were

    10 several buses, trucks, tractors. There was nobody in

    11 charge. It was a very hot day. There was no water, no

    12 food. We ourselves had flasks with water, and I

    13 ordered some of my colleagues and subordinates to get

    14 water and to distribute it to the refugees. The Serb

    15 soldiers just stood there, looking, and they just liked

    16 what they saw. Some of them were robbing us, the

    17 DutchBat soldiers, of our pistols, of our helmets.

    18 They took away our watches, our clothing, just for a

    19 souvenir. Those were mainly those Rambo-types which I

    20 described coming in the second wave.

    21 Q. Were you present when Muslims were actually

    22 loaded onto buses?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Can you describe what you saw of that

    25 process?

  80. 1 A. The people who were loaded into the buses and

    2 onto the trucks were mainly the people outside the

    3 compound. They wanted to get them away as fast as

    4 possible. A separation was made between men between

    5 the ages of 14, 15, up to 50. The men had to surrender

    6 their belongings. And the women were transported in

    7 the other direction, towards the buses. They had to

    8 advance towards the first bus, and that is how they

    9 filled all the buses. And as soon as a bus was full,

    10 two or three buses left the enclave. Sometimes they

    11 were escorted by a military vehicle.

    12 Q. Now, when the men were separated, did you see

    13 where they went?

    14 A. Some buses, a couple of buses, were situated

    15 towards the Srebrenica direction and some buses also

    16 went towards Bratunac. That is how they left the

    17 enclave. The men were separated. If I could just show

    18 you in this picture.

    19 Q. Again, referring to the same exhibit, 5/2.

    20 A. So this is the area where the separation of

    21 the men took place [indicates].

    22 MR. McCLOSKEY: And for the record, it should

    23 indicate the witness showed the area around the White

    24 House.

    25 Q. You mentioned the men's belongings. What

  81. 1 happened to the men's belongings?

    2 A. They were searched at such a high pace that

    3 all their belongings were taken away from them. The

    4 older men were put onto the bus -- the distinction was

    5 immediately made -- and the younger boys, around 15 up

    6 to 30 years, were taken apart. Some of them were

    7 interrogated, all their belongings were put onto one

    8 big heap, and afterwards, of course, they were also

    9 taken away, and it could be in both directions.

    10 Q. Did you see where the men were taken for

    11 interrogation?

    12 A. Most or all of them -- let me show you here

    13 in the picture -- were taken to the White House, across

    14 from the compound. That was a very distinctive

    15 location. Many military were around there.

    16 Q. Where were their belongings accumulating

    17 during this process?

    18 A. Their belongings were put near the entrance

    19 to this little house. Let me show you once more. Do

    20 you see the white bus here? That is the main entrance

    21 to the path leading to the White House, and that is

    22 where the belongings of all those people were put

    23 down. And in the end, it was such a big mound that

    24 around the White House everywhere there were those

    25 belongings, rucksacks, bags, shoes, passports, knives,

  82. 1 razors, whatever they had.

    2 MR. McCLOSKEY: For the record, the witness

    3 indicated a little white speck below the circle

    4 marked "White House." It appears to be an area in

    5 front of the White House.

    6 Q. Now, earlier, you said that no one was in

    7 charge. Did you mean that no one was in charge from

    8 the Dutch or no one was in charge from the Serb side?

    9 A. We were understaffed, and the higher-ranking

    10 officers and NCOs were under such stress and so busy

    11 with other things that we did not have any command.

    12 Everybody did as they saw best, and we did what we

    13 could.

    14 On the Serb side, it was certainly very

    15 well-organised.

    16 Q. What leads you to belief that?

    17 A. It was certainly the case that it was a

    18 well-prepared stage. Everybody had been assigned a

    19 task, everybody knew his position. There were people

    20 who had to guard the compound, who had to guard the

    21 surroundings. There were units who had to clear out

    22 the houses, and there were other units who had to do

    23 the interrogations. Those were older men; most of them

    24 had a pistol. It was indeed well organised, and it was

    25 perhaps a separate unit assigned to this task.

  83. 1 Q. Can you describe this unit that you think may

    2 have been a separate unit, what the people looked like,

    3 what they were wearing?

    4 A. Around that White House, the interrogation

    5 house, there were mainly armed military in camouflage,

    6 and in the house, there were elder men with pistols.

    7 They had more experience. And there was certainly a

    8 good chain of command, who decided what was going to

    9 happen to those people and which bus they were to

    10 board. And, indeed, there was the police car, not the

    11 armed vehicle, but those Volkswagen Golfs. They were

    12 also present there.

    13 Q. Now, this description you're giving us of

    14 various units all doing various tasks, including

    15 clearing out houses, guarding the compound, separating

    16 the men from the women and children, interrogating men,

    17 how would you describe the coordination between these

    18 various groups, as you saw it?

    19 A. From a military point of view, I would never

    20 condone what happened, but it was a good operation. It

    21 was well organised, well prepared, good command.

    22 Everybody knew their task. Certainly it was planned

    23 about how to go about this, and several units were

    24 involved for this approach. It was a large-scale

    25 approach in such a way that they did not know what

  84. 1 resistance to expect, but they knew that they would be

    2 able to handle it as quickly as possible. There was

    3 good communication, internal communication, good

    4 liaison materiel, and it is well known, the Yugoslav

    5 army is well known for their good liaison materiel. It

    6 was very well organised. They had a sufficient chain

    7 of command. There was new materiel brought in,

    8 constantly new troops, new units, very well-oiled.

    9 Q. Do you see anyone in this room today that you

    10 saw out there at that time?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Could you point out where that person is and

    13 what they're wearing?

    14 A. [Indicates]. He's sitting behind that

    15 gentleman. He has greying hair and he has a partition

    16 to the left. He is wearing a black jacket and a white

    17 shirt.

    18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can the record indicate that

    19 he has identified General Krstic.

    20 And, Mr. President, as you've indicated, it's

    21 a good idea for a break.

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

    23 Mr. McCloskey. I think that we have another one hour

    24 and five minutes to work, and I think we should split

    25 the remaining time in two parts. As far as I can see,

  85. 1 there is an English interpreter who is working all the

    2 time, so we're going to have a break, a 15-minute

    3 break.

    4 --- Recess taken at 1.27 p.m.

    5 --- On resuming at 1.47 p.m.

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

    7 Mr. McCloskey, you can continue.

    8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

    9 Q. Witness F, prior to the break, you'd

    10 identified General Krstic as a man that was present in

    11 Potocari during this time frame. When was the first

    12 time you saw General Krstic's face after seeing him in

    13 Potocari during this time frame?

    14 A. On the second day.

    15 Q. Okay. That wasn't exactly my question, but

    16 I'll go back to that. So the first day being the day

    17 that the soldiers, the VRS soldiers, first arrived in

    18 Potocari, again, which day did you actually see General

    19 Krstic?

    20 A. On the first day, the day of the fall of the

    21 enclave.

    22 Q. All right. So you saw him on the day that

    23 soldiers first came into the enclave?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. How about the second day?

  86. 1 A. I also saw him once in front of the

    2 compound. At the time, he was together with several

    3 military, I think higher ranking ones.

    4 Q. When you saw him in front of the compound

    5 with other high-ranking military people, was that the

    6 first day or the second day?

    7 A. The first day.

    8 Q. Did you ever see him on the second day?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Where did you see him on the second day?

    11 A. Around the compound, in the vicinity, and the

    12 White House, in that area.

    13 Q. What was he doing when you saw him there on

    14 the second day?

    15 A. Mostly nothing. They didn't do much. They

    16 just looked whether everything was going according to

    17 plan. They didn't give any direct commands. It was

    18 all led by officers, by NCOs. It was already

    19 prepared.

    20 Q. Now, the first day you saw him with officers

    21 in the vicinity of the compound, what did you see that

    22 time, on that first day?

    23 A. The first day, they wanted to enter the

    24 compound, to see how many men there were at that moment

    25 in the compound, refugees who had been hiding in our

  87. 1 compound. So they were kind of consulting at the gate

    2 whether they could enter or not.

    3 Q. When you say "they," again, who do you mean?

    4 A. The high-ranking military, security units who

    5 had to secure the officers.

    6 Q. And General Krstic was in that group?

    7 A. The security was nervous because the compound

    8 was not yet secured. They were nervous, they thought

    9 there might be armed fighters inside. So they had not

    10 yet personally secured the compound.

    11 Q. I need to go back and clarify the record. I

    12 didn't hear an answer to my question whether or not you

    13 saw General Krstic in that group of officers outside

    14 the compound.

    15 A. Yes, he was also present.

    16 Q. Now, going back to a question I asked a while

    17 back, when was the -- after seeing General Krstic in

    18 Potocari, how many days, weeks, or years later did you

    19 next -- was it until you next saw his face?

    20 A. I've never, ever seen his face again, after

    21 those pictures.

    22 Q. You were shown some pictures, weren't you?

    23 A. That's correct.

    24 Q. And when were you shown pictures of General

    25 Krstic?

  88. 1 A. After I had been called to the Tribunal,

    2 those photographs were put in front of me, and I was

    3 asked whether I had ever seen this man before.

    4 Q. That was within the last two or three days,

    5 wasn't it?

    6 A. That's correct.

    7 Q. And I'm the person that showed you those

    8 photographs.

    9 A. That's totally correct.

    10 Q. When I showed you those photographs, were you

    11 able to recognise the person in the photographs?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Is that the same person that you see in court

    14 today?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Is there any doubt in your mind that the

    17 person you see in court today is the same person you

    18 saw in Potocari during the time period we're talking

    19 about?

    20 A. No, I have no doubts.

    21 Q. During the separation process, did you

    22 witness any Serb troops using any violence against the

    23 men?

    24 A. When I was outside the compound, standing

    25 outside the compound, the people were separated. It

  89. 1 had to happen fast. There were older people amongst

    2 them and children, women with babies and with

    3 belongings. It was a hot day. They didn't have any

    4 water. If they didn't hurry, those people, sometimes

    5 they were kicked, they were beaten, they were pushed.

    6 Many people fell because of that, and some kind of

    7 traffic jams resulted. And they panicked. The buses

    8 were loaded so full that people were squashed inside

    9 the buses. They didn't get any water for the way, no

    10 food. The windows could not be opened. It was like a

    11 hot tin oven, it was so hot. Yes, indeed, there was

    12 kicking, beating, spitting, shouting.

    13 Q. Were you able to recognise any other Bosnian

    14 Serb officers present at Potocari on that first day?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. And who was that?

    17 A. General Mladic was present.

    18 Q. What did you see Mladic doing?

    19 A. He was in the vicinity of the refugees, with

    20 lots of security guards. There was a camera crew

    21 there. They distributed candy. They acted kindly

    22 towards children and elderly people; they even patted

    23 their heads in front of the camera's eye, and they

    24 tried to act friendly, to be friendly. They said,

    25 "Don't worry. Nothing bad is going to happen, and you

  90. 1 will be taken away to safety."

    2 Q. And then what happened?

    3 A. After the camera crew stopped filming, the

    4 General turned around, he laughed. The soldiers took

    5 the candy back, took the cigarettes back. They spit at

    6 the children and at the women, and they were taken away

    7 directly.

    8 Q. Besides Krstic and Mladic, did you recognise

    9 any other Serb soldier or officer by name?

    10 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. He said they were

    11 taken away directly. Who was taken away, and where?

    12 A. The refugees who at that point in time were

    13 around the house, who had been given the candies, they

    14 were taken away immediately.

    15 JUDGE RIAD: Where? To where?

    16 A. After the film crew had stopped, after the

    17 film had been taken.

    18 JUDGE RIAD: I just want to understand the

    19 word "away." To the buses? To the White House?

    20 Where?

    21 A. Directly to the buses.

    22 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you.

    23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

    24 Q. Did you recognise any other Bosnian Serb

    25 officer by name that was present in Potocari?

  91. 1 A. Not by name, not directly by name.

    2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'd like to show the witness

    3 Exhibit 28-13.1.

    4 Q. Do you recognise the person depicted in that

    5 photograph?

    6 A. That's correct, I recognise him.

    7 Q. Where did you see him?

    8 A. I saw him at OP Papa, at the time the convoys

    9 were not allowed to go through, and we negotiated with

    10 him, and I saw him on the day the enclave fell.

    11 Q. Okay. To try to clear up -- you're talking

    12 about two different time periods now. One time period

    13 has to do with the convoys and convoys not being able

    14 to get through; is that right?

    15 A. That's correct. That was about halfway

    16 through my time in Srebrenica.

    17 Q. So at least some weeks prior to the fall of

    18 the enclave.

    19 A. That's right.

    20 Q. And where did you next see this person in the

    21 exhibit, 28-13.1?

    22 A. In the vicinity of the compound and the

    23 refugees.

    24 Q. What day?

    25 A. The first day.

  92. 1 Q. How about the second day?

    2 A. He was also there.

    3 Q. And what was he doing in the vicinity of the

    4 refugees that first day?

    5 A. Not much. This man was standing there. He

    6 only talked to officers, not to subordinates. He was a

    7 quiet man. He certainly had a lot of authority.

    8 Q. And were you able to recognise any of the

    9 officers or Bosnian Serb soldiers you saw him talking

    10 to on that first day?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. And who was that?

    13 A. The gentleman in this courtroom.

    14 Q. The person you've identified in this

    15 courtroom previously?

    16 A. That's right.

    17 MR. McCLOSKEY: [Previous translation

    18 continues] ... indicating General Krstic, for the

    19 record.

    20 Q. Can you describe what you saw with General

    21 Krstic and this fellow, where they were, what they were

    22 doing?

    23 A. Those people had to laugh, and they found it

    24 all very jolly, what happened, in my opinion, at

    25 least. They were present in order to see that

  93. 1 everything was going according to plan, and sometimes

    2 they gave commands, they gave orders, or they told

    3 people what to do, or it was reported to them how the

    4 situation was progressing. This group of persons

    5 mainly consisted of officers who watched the situation

    6 from the outside.

    7 Q. Did you see General Mladic around these two

    8 people, General Krstic and this person in this

    9 photograph?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. And was he involved in the discussions with

    12 them in any way?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. And did you see a major who you had become

    15 familiar with prior to the fall of the enclave?

    16 A. I don't understand the question.

    17 Q. Do you recognise the name Nikolic?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. And who's Major Nikolic?

    20 A. He's a high-ranking officer with lots of

    21 authority. Well, at first sight, he's a friendly man,

    22 a fatherly type, also business-like type. Many

    23 subordinates became very nervous when he was around.

    24 Q. And how did you become familiar with Major

    25 Nikolic?

  94. 1 A. I'm sorry.

    2 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry. I didn't

    3 understand what the witness said. The interpreter is

    4 asking for the witness to start his statement again.

    5 Could you please ask the witness to repeat.

    6 MR. McCLOSKEY:

    7 Q. Let me interrupt you for a minute. We have a

    8 little translation glitch, so let me ask you again.

    9 How did you know Major Nikolic? Where did

    10 you know him from?

    11 A. When I was at OP Papa, as an observer, we

    12 often went to the enclave's border as a kind of --

    13 there was a kind of guardhouse, there were guards.

    14 Often we consulted about the convoys which were not

    15 allowed through, the convoys with food, and he was

    16 present often.

    17 Q. And did you see Major Nikolic in Potocari on

    18 the first day, the day that Serb soldiers came in?

    19 A. Yes, he was present.

    20 Q. And where did you see him?

    21 A. In the vicinity of the compound.

    22 Q. And do you know who he was with?

    23 A. Mainly with the high-ranking officers, and he

    24 had his own security guard. Mainly he drove in a blue

    25 Golf.

  95. 1 Q. Okay. I'm going to take you away from that

    2 first day and into the second day. Where did you spend

    3 the night of that first day?

    4 A. Where I spent the night is perhaps saying too

    5 much. We just kept on working. Mainly I was on the

    6 compound with the refugees, in the big hall.

    7 Q. And did you ever find any dead Muslims in the

    8 compound?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. When was that?

    11 A. Mainly during the beginning of the evening,

    12 on the compound itself.

    13 Q. Was that the first day or the second day?

    14 A. From the first to the second day.

    15 Q. And can you describe what you saw?

    16 A. The people on the compound were very

    17 frightened, they didn't know what to expect. Some

    18 people had hanged themselves. Actually, they had

    19 been -- they had injured themselves. There were dead

    20 babies lying, wrapped in clothes. There were bodies

    21 around, visible, yes.

    22 Q. And the next morning, what did you do, the

    23 morning of the second day?

    24 A. We continued our day with our duties, in

    25 preparing the buses and trucks, to reconnoitre the

  96. 1 vicinity. Those were our duties.

    2 Q. And did you make a specific reconnoitre for

    3 some reason?

    4 A. Several times I made a round of the compound,

    5 mainly in the hall where the injured people were, and

    6 indeed I was there several times and I saw a wounded

    7 soldier whom I had met before.

    8 Q. And did you talk to him?

    9 A. I talked to that man.

    10 Q. What language?

    11 A. In English.

    12 Q. And what did he say to you?

    13 A. This soldier was about my age. We recognised

    14 each other, we knew each other from OP Sierra. He

    15 asked me what was going on outside and what was going

    16 to happen to him. He had injured himself; his arm, his

    17 leg, his head were injured. I asked, "What happened?"

    18 And he said, "I was in a fight with Serb military." I

    19 asked about his friend, because he had been with a

    20 friend before. His friend had been killed in a fight,

    21 and he had fled towards the compound. He asked me,

    22 "What's going to happen to me?" and I couldn't give

    23 him a direct answer to that. I mean, I could have done

    24 so, but it's very difficult to tell him that he, being

    25 a man, will be taken away, because separations are

  97. 1 taking place. So I didn't tell him much. He said to

    2 me, "You don't have to tell me. I know what's going to

    3 happen. I'm going to be taken away and killed." So I

    4 just nodded my head and I saw the fear in his eyes.

    5 There wasn't much I could do. I stood powerless. And

    6 I haven't seen him since.

    7 Q. On the second day, did you go outside the

    8 compound on a patrol and find anything?

    9 A. On the second day, I indeed continued with my

    10 duties. Indeed, I walked around the compound, yes.

    11 Q. And outside the compound, did you find

    12 anything significant?

    13 A. Outside the compound, many belongings were

    14 lying around, things belonging to people who had left

    15 their things people. I found passports, stuff, and

    16 bodies, dead bodies.

    17 Q. And where did you find the dead bodies?

    18 A. Behind the White House, the interrogation

    19 house.

    20 Q. Did you find any bodies up by a creek

    21 anywhere?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. And where is that?

    24 A. Behind the White House, about 700 metres from

    25 the compound, there is a kind of electricity house. I

  98. 1 was very familiar with this route because I had

    2 patrolled it many times.

    3 Q. Now, when you say "behind the White House,"

    4 are you referring to the bodies that you found in the

    5 creek, or were they other bodies actually right behind

    6 the White House?

    7 A. Further away, behind the White House.

    8 Q. So you just found one group of bodies.

    9 A. Yes. I found nine -- I saw nine to ten

    10 corpses.

    11 Q. And were you able to photograph them?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I'd like to

    14 show the witness what has been marked OTP Exhibit

    15 5/3A.

    16 Q. Could you take the green pen that you have in

    17 front of you and draw a circle around the area where

    18 you photographed these bodies.

    19 A. [Marks]

    20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we put that on the ELMO

    21 so that we can all see that.

    22 Q. Is there a creek in the vicinity of the area

    23 where you found the bodies, or a stream?

    24 A. Yes, that's correct.

    25 Q. And could you mark -- do you recall where the

  99. 1 stream was?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Can you mark with a green pen where you

    4 recall the stream being?

    5 A. [Marks]

    6 Q. Okay. Could you also circle the White House,

    7 as your recollection serves you, where it was on this

    8 photograph?

    9 A. [Marks]

    10 Q. Okay. Thank you. Can you describe the

    11 situation, how it was that you came and found these

    12 bodies?

    13 A. That day there had been rumours already,

    14 rumours about it being possible that there might be

    15 corpses in the vicinity. Shots had been heard in the

    16 whole area. And those were just rumours, actually.

    17 I had time to spare, and I just went into the

    18 area. I thought, "I won't go too far because I'm

    19 alone." Everybody else was busy, and anything could

    20 happen. "So if anything goes wrong, they will miss me

    21 straight away." And I met a colleague, he was higher

    22 in rank than I, and we started talking. And he asked

    23 me what I was doing there at that point in time, and I

    24 said, "Well, I heard a rumour of corpses being around

    25 here," and he said, "I also heard that."

  100. 1 So after this exchange, we went on together

    2 and we took a path which went towards -- leading

    3 towards the location I circled, and there is where I

    4 found the bodies. So the rumour was true.

    5 Q. And how close did you get to the bodies when

    6 you photographed them?

    7 A. I was on a hill, this brook or creek was

    8 about 20 metres away, and there were the bodies. My

    9 colleague was standing on guard because there were many

    10 Serb soldiers in the vicinity, those Rambo-types.

    11 Q. All right.

    12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we show the witness

    13 Exhibit 59.

    14 Q. And is this -- number 59, is this one of the

    15 photographs that you took?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. It doesn't come out very well on the ELMO,

    18 but there is a figure that's outlined with two white

    19 stripes. Were you the one that outlined that figure

    20 and those two white stripes over the photograph? Were

    21 you the one that outlined the figure with those two

    22 white stripes, Witness?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. It doesn't come out on the ELMO at all, but

    25 could you just give your best effort to point at the

  101. 1 photograph with your pointer and outline where you

    2 believe a figure is.

    3 A. [Indicates]. This is his head, this black

    4 part is his hair, and this little white spot is his

    5 face. This man was wearing a blue vest over his white

    6 shirt. This is his blue vest. And this is his arm and

    7 a white shirt. This white part, this is the colour of

    8 his white shirt. Here is the creek, and this was the

    9 first man who was lying there, and the others were

    10 lying along that line here [indicates], downwards.

    11 MR. McCLOSKEY: For the record, he indicated

    12 that the creek was below the figure of the person and

    13 that the line where the other bodies were lying was

    14 going from the figure left towards the right of the

    15 photograph.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

    17 Mr. McCloskey, sorry to interrupt you, but we are

    18 talking about the 12th of July. That is when the

    19 photograph was taken. I should like to know, when was

    20 this photograph taken?

    21 MR. McCLOSKEY:

    22 Q. Can we clear up the actual date that this

    23 photograph was taken? If you don't know the date, was

    24 it the first day the soldiers came in or the second

    25 day?

  102. 1 A. The second day. The first day, we were too

    2 busy with helping the refugees and there weren't many

    3 people walking around in the vicinity.

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I do

    5 apologise for insisting, but could you give us the

    6 date?

    7 MR. McCLOSKEY:

    8 Q. Do you know the actual date that this

    9 occurred? Excuse me. That you saw this.

    10 A. The 12th.

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    12 MR. McCLOSKEY:

    13 Q. Now, were you able to take photographs of

    14 other bodies in the area, near this body?

    15 A. I took several pictures of corpses which were

    16 lying there. These men were in a line, lying in a

    17 line, but as you can see yourselves, the foliage was

    18 very heavy and, to repeat again, I was on the ridge of

    19 the hill and there were many soldiers around. So I

    20 almost risked my own life in order to take these

    21 pictures, but, indeed, I took several pictures.

    22 Q. And you're not a photographer, I take it.

    23 A. As you can see from these pictures.

    24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we show the witness

    25 Exhibit 60, and 61 shortly after that.

  103. 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

    2 Mr. McCloskey, I think that we perhaps could adjourn

    3 after we see those photographs.

    4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.

    5 Q. Now, again, prior to coming into court today,

    6 did you have a chance to study this photograph and mark

    7 certain outlines with white stripes?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. And is this one of the photographs you took,

    10 this number 60?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. And does seeing it help refresh your

    13 recollection about where the bodies were lying?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. It's really impossible to tell from the

    16 photographs any bodies from this photograph, but have

    17 you attempted to outline your recollection of where the

    18 bodies were, from what you could see in the photograph?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. And can you explain it?

    21 A. Here is the first victim [indicates], in our

    22 first picture. The second victim is lying here

    23 [indicates]; this man was wearing black clothes; here

    24 is where he was lying. Here is another victim

    25 [indicates]. This man is wearing white trousers.

  104. 1 These are his legs and this is his face.

    2 To repeat, this is the direction of the

    3 stream, downwards.

    4 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, for the record, the

    5 witness spoke of the first victim on the far left; the

    6 next he spoke of was in the middle; and the next was to

    7 the right of the middle person. And the stream is at

    8 the -- below the white markings.

    9 Q. And could you also now look at number 61.

    10 Does the same hold true for 61? Is this a photograph

    11 that you previously looked at and had a chance to mark?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. And this is one of the photographs you took

    14 that day?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Can you describe what you can about this

    17 photograph?

    18 A. Just to give you a picture, this is where the

    19 creek is running [indicates]. Here was a body, with

    20 his -- facing the creek, and here [indicates] another

    21 body. That's the first body in the first picture, the

    22 man wearing a blue vest, white sleeves, and black

    23 hair.

    24 MR. McCLOSKEY: The record should indicate

    25 the first -- the body you discussed first on this

  105. 1 photograph is to the left; the next body you discussed

    2 is to the right; and you pointed that the creek was

    3 down below both these bodies.

    4 Mr. President, this may be a good time to

    5 take the break or adjourn for the day.

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

    7 Mr. McCloskey. We shall therefore adjourn, and

    8 tomorrow at half past nine, we shall be resuming.

    9 Until tomorrow, then.

    10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

    11 at 2.35 p.m., to be reconvened on

    12 Wednesday, the 29th day of March,

    13 2000, at 9.30 a.m.