1. 1 Wednesday, 29 March 2000

    2 [Open session]

    3 [The witness entered court]

    4 --- Upon commencing at 10.15 a.m.

    5 [The accused entered court]

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

    7 morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning,

    8 interpreters, I can see that you are there; good

    9 morning, sound engineers, counsel for the Prosecution,

    10 for the Defence, General Krstic; and also good morning

    11 to the witness and his interpreter.

    12 We shall now resume our case, the Krstic

    13 case. For the record, we are all here, the same,

    14 except for Judge Wald, who, for urgent and pressing

    15 matters, could not join us. Under Rule 15 bis,

    16 paragraph (A), the two Judges, Judge Riad and I,

    17 believe that the interests of justice, that is, a fair

    18 and expedient process, requires that we continue

    19 hearing this case.

    20 During the absence of Judge Wald, and she

    21 will be absent for three days, we have decided to

    22 continue hearing the case, and we shall do so by

    23 hearing the evidence that was begun yesterday by the

    24 witness who is already in the witness box.

    25 Mr. McCloskey, it is now up to you. I should

  2. 1 like to remind the witness and his interpreter that you

    2 are both under oath, and you will now continue to give

    3 your testimony. Mr. McCloskey, it is now really time

    4 for you. Thank you.

    5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

    6 WITNESS: WITNESS F [Resumed]

    7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

    8 Examined by Mr. McCloskey: [Cont'd]

    9 Q. Witness F, I believe we left off yesterday

    10 where you had described the bodies you'd seen and

    11 photographed, and you were describing them on the

    12 pictures.

    13 Now, let me ask you, how close were you able

    14 to get to those bodies and view them?

    15 A. Approximately 20 to 25 metres. I was on a

    16 slope, on an incline, so I didn't see straight ahead.

    17 I looked downwards.

    18 Q. Were you able to make out the kinds of

    19 clothes that the people were wearing?

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me,

    21 Mr. McCloskey. The French booth did not hear your

    22 question. Could you repeat it, please?

    23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.

    24 Q. Were you able to make out the different kinds

    25 of clothing that the people were wearing?

  3. 1 A. Yes, I could. The victims had all civilian

    2 clothes; some of them had blue jeans, pullovers,

    3 coats. But there were no persons with military

    4 clothes.

    5 Q. Could you make out the sexes of the victims?

    6 A. They were all men between the ages of

    7 approximately 15 to --

    8 THE INTERPRETER: -- 45, I believe the

    9 witness said. The interpreter is not sure.

    10 MR. McCLOSKEY:

    11 Q. Can you state that again? There was a little

    12 bit of an interpretation problem. They didn't make out

    13 your last answer.

    14 A. They were all men, in the age group 15 to

    15 45.

    16 Q. And were you able to see any injury on any of

    17 these victims?

    18 A. Yes. Some of them had bloodstains on their

    19 backs and at the back of their heads.

    20 Q. And what did you do after seeing these

    21 victims and photographing them?

    22 A. I climbed back up and I joined my colleague

    23 who was standing on guard there. I looked at him. I

    24 was in shock. And we immediately returned to the

    25 compound.

  4. 1 Q. And about what time was that, if you can

    2 recall?

    3 A. Around noon.

    4 Q. And did you go back outside the compound any

    5 time that day?

    6 A. After returning to the compound, I returned,

    7 I had a cup of coffee, and then I went back outside.

    8 Q. And what was going on outside the compound?

    9 A. People were still being deported, taken to

    10 buses, just like the first day, actually.

    11 Q. And I believe you discussed this briefly, but

    12 can you tell us what the senior VRS officers you saw

    13 there -- out there that day?

    14 A. High-ranking officers, they were all present

    15 again. Some of them were just standing and looking

    16 whether things were going according to plan, and for

    17 the rest, they didn't do much.

    18 Q. And can you name the officers whose names you

    19 now know?

    20 A. The person present in the courtroom was

    21 there, and some others, some people who just were

    22 walking around, not so many, and that was all.

    23 Q. How about General Mladic?

    24 A. He was also present, indeed, yes.

    25 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. He said they were

  5. 1 standing and looking. He didn't say looking at what

    2 and standing where. Can I just ask?

    3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those officers

    4 were in the vicinity, standing near the vicinity of the

    5 main compound, near the interrogation house, and they

    6 were just watching whether everything was going to

    7 plan, and some of them also went towards the direction

    8 of Srebrenica, the officers.

    9 JUDGE RIAD: Near the interrogation house or

    10 near the bodies?

    11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Next to the

    12 interrogation house is where the officers were.

    13 MR. McCLOSKEY:

    14 Q. And how long did it take until all of the

    15 Muslims were transported from the area outside the

    16 compound?

    17 A. Till about dusk, 6.00 or 7.00 in the evening,

    18 since it was summertime. I would like to repeat that I

    19 don't remember the times, I didn't -- when you live

    20 through such days, you don't watch the time, you don't

    21 look at your watch. One is a bit unstable.

    22 Q. Did you see anything happen to the belongings

    23 that were in front of the White House after everyone

    24 was transported out of the area?

    25 A. All around the compound, there were many

  6. 1 personal belongings belonging to those Muslim

    2 civilians, mainly next to this White House, the

    3 interrogation house. The belongings of all those men

    4 were heaped up, the men who had been separated. Most

    5 of those belongings were just put on one big heap and

    6 then were set afire.

    7 Q. And were you able to photograph this?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could show the

    10 witness Exhibit 62.

    11 Q. Do you recognise this photograph as a

    12 photograph you took?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. And approximately when was this taken?

    15 A. During the end of the evening, when dusk

    16 broke.

    17 Q. And was that the same day that the Muslims

    18 were finally all transported out of the area?

    19 A. That's correct.

    20 Q. And were you able to see who lit this pile of

    21 belongings on fire?

    22 A. Negative.

    23 Q. Could it have been Dutch soldiers?

    24 A. No.

    25 Q. Now, the soldiers you saw in black that

  7. 1 you've described earlier, did you ever get close enough

    2 to them to be able to identify if they had any emblems

    3 on insignias on them?

    4 A. Yes, indeed, I was close to them, but I

    5 couldn't see any emblems.

    6 Q. Were you able to make out any emblems or

    7 insignia on any of the soldiers that you were close

    8 enough to see during those two days?

    9 A. No. The infantry units only had little

    10 strips of fabric on their shoulders, just to show that

    11 they were belonging together, and of course the police

    12 cars had the letters "Police" written on them. And

    13 that was all the emblems I could see.

    14 Q. So did you stay in Potocari for about another

    15 week, and then -- until you were finally shipped out

    16 with the rest of your colleagues?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have no further questions,

    19 Mr. President.

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    21 Mr. McCloskey.

    22 Now, Witness F, the time has come for you to

    23 answer the questions which Mr. Petrusic, as I see, will

    24 ask you. He is one of the counsel for the defence of

    25 General Krstic.

  8. 1 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning,

    2 Your Honours, my learned friends.

    3 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic:

    4 Q. Good morning, Witness F. In the beginning of

    5 your testimony, and today, you referred to units

    6 dressed in black uniforms. Did these units have their

    7 own command?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. And independently of units wearing camouflage

    10 uniforms of somewhat poorer quality, operated on their

    11 own, operated independently?

    12 A. No, they were independent of the black

    13 units.

    14 Q. Yes. My question is they operated

    15 independently of other units, didn't they?

    16 A. Yes. They didn't do any business with other

    17 infantry units.

    18 Q. So those other infantry units had their own

    19 command, didn't they?

    20 A. Yes. They mainly consisted of NCOs who went

    21 along with them, along the lines, and the people in

    22 black had their own commanders. So they were separate

    23 from each other.

    24 Q. These units, just for the sake of

    25 identification, I will call them the same way you did,

  9. 1 that is, poorer dressed units, wearing uniforms of

    2 worse quality, engaged in combat with the Muslim units,

    3 didn't they?

    4 A. That's correct.

    5 Q. Could you tell us where precisely was this

    6 combat in relation to Bratunac-Srebrenica road? Where

    7 was fighting taking place?

    8 A. If I could have a map, I could show you, just

    9 to clear things up.

    10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

    11 just a moment while we show the witness the exhibit.

    12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

    13 Mr. Petrusic.

    14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.

    15 Perhaps it would even be better if -- Mr. Dubuisson is

    16 suggesting to use Exhibit 2, and then the witness

    17 perhaps could show it on that map.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.

    19 Mr. Dubuisson will help us now.

    20 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

    21 may I make a suggestion, please? Perhaps this will,

    22 after all, be a better solution.

    23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I

    24 think you are right, Mr. Petrusic, and I think we

    25 should remove the big map, if it is not necessary. If

  10. 1 the small map is put on the ELMO, then we can all see

    2 it. And perhaps we shall not need the big map,

    3 Mr. Dubuisson, perhaps it could be removed. I think

    4 that it blocks the view for our interpreters, and they

    5 do need to have at least visual communication with

    6 Mr. Petrusic.

    7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] I should also

    8 like to ask Mr. Petrusic the number of the exhibit.

    9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, for the

    10 record, Exhibit 5A of the Prosecution.

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I

    12 think it is better now, because otherwise we would have

    13 to go into a closed session because if the witness had

    14 to move about, then it would be difficult to provide

    15 the protection measures.

    16 Yes, Mr. Petrusic, I think now it will be all

    17 right.

    18 A. At that moment, when I was on my location,

    19 looking towards Bratunac, OP Papa, to the eastern side

    20 there were a couple of Muslim fighters, so that is that

    21 side [indicates]; to the north we heard sounds, heavy

    22 engine sounds, heavy vehicles. It later turned out to

    23 be a Russian T-55 tank. They came from the

    24 direction -- they came from the western direction. The

    25 Muslim fighters fired light mortar from the east

  11. 1 towards north, and this fire was answered by Serb

    2 machine-gun fire, not tank fire. And their position

    3 was such -- my position was such that I saw the shells

    4 coming in, I had to crouch behind my sandbag from time

    5 to time, because also our position was a bit harmed by

    6 this.

    7 In the days before the fall of the enclave,

    8 there were -- for a couple of days, there was heavy

    9 artillery fire to be heard around Srebrenica, and it

    10 all came from the north into Srebrenica. A couple of

    11 times we had to hide in our bunkers, and in the

    12 vicinity of Potocari, here [indicates] in the

    13 mountains, there was quite some fire. It was heavy

    14 machine-gun fire and mortar shellings.

    15 From this direction [indicates], here were

    16 Serb positions, there was heavy fire with cannon fire.

    17 MT-12 was the type of those cannons, and that went on

    18 for a couple of days. Thank you.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

    20 Mr. Petrusic, I'm sorry to cut in, but perhaps we need

    21 to have a synthesis of what the witness said, because

    22 we are receiving the interpretation "from here to

    23 here," but we do not know where he was. Could you give

    24 us the coordinate points? Where is Bratunac? Where is

    25 Srebrenica? And where was the witness? I think it

  12. 1 will be a synthesis, but this is merely a suggestion,

    2 Mr. Petrusic.

    3 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Precisely that

    4 is what I wanted to ask about the road between Bratunac

    5 and Srebrenica.

    6 Q. Where exactly did the fighting between Serb

    7 and Muslim forces take place?

    8 If I may be allowed to continue. The

    9 witness, when pointing, because we have those figures

    10 on the map, perhaps he will keep the pointer on the

    11 figure, or rather on the box, on the square, that he's

    12 showing.

    13 A. My position was in map square 91, this square

    14 here [indicates], at the top of this square. I was

    15 looking towards map square 64, 65, the square under 65,

    16 90, and 63. The Muslim fighters were all in the map

    17 square here [indicates], under this, so that's 59, and

    18 they fired from 59 to --

    19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please

    20 repeat the last number? Could the witness please

    21 repeat the last number?

    22 A. Square 59 is where the Muslim fighters fired

    23 their mortars, towards square 64, this general

    24 direction [indicates], and this fire was answered with

    25 machine-gun fire, and from time to time cannon shots.

  13. 1 My position was such that I saw the shells come in and

    2 land in this location [indicates]. Sometimes I had to

    3 hide behind my position because of the detonations and

    4 the shells.

    5 In the days before that, before the enclave

    6 fell, there was heavy firing from square 64 -- or, I

    7 correct myself, 65, up till 83, up to and including

    8 83. Along this line [indicates], there was heavy

    9 artillery mortar fire, and the fire was so heavy that

    10 the compound was shaking in this vicinity.

    11 Around the compound Potocari, I will mark

    12 this with a circle here, there were quite some fights

    13 taking place in the woods here [indicates]. From the

    14 direction of Budak here, square 63, we heard heavy

    15 engine sounds. It later turned out to be a tank, T-55,

    16 a Russian T-55 tank. It turned on the way to

    17 Srebrenica, and later on it entered Srebrenica.

    18 Behind the tank there was an armoured vehicle

    19 with an anti-aircraft -- which was used for shooting at

    20 houses, and of course there were many infantry units

    21 with them.

    22 The Muslim fighters which were here already

    23 were seen to be running back and forth while they were

    24 fired at, looking for new positions in the field. In

    25 63, there were also quite some Muslim fighters.

  14. 1 Apparently, they tried to resist against advancing Serb

    2 military, in square 63 to 66.

    3 I could see all of this, I observed it from

    4 my position, my location on the compound, in map square

    5 90/91.

    6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me, Mr. President. My

    7 colleague has pointed out to me that it's not clear who

    8 had the anti-aircraft gun, and perhaps that's an

    9 important factor for this discussion.

    10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I

    11 think that there have been quite a few problems with

    12 interpretation here. I believe that the French

    13 interpretation has more or less followed, but while

    14 Mr. McCloskey was speaking, they were still

    15 interpreting the words of the witness. We should try

    16 to figure out exactly where the anti-aircraft gun was

    17 positioned, I believe that that was the question.

    18 After the witness has answered to that question, I will

    19 then ask Mr. Petrusic to ask specific questions because

    20 the witness has already covered quite a few facts.

    21 But let me ask the witness the following

    22 question: If we look at the map, if we look at the

    23 circle on the map, I think that Bratunac is in the

    24 north-westerly direction, whereas Srebrenica is

    25 situated towards south. Is that the case, Witness?

  15. 1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

    2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Could you

    3 therefore be more specific and tell us the exact

    4 position of the AA gun?

    5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This

    6 anti-aircraft gun was placed on a vehicle. I'm not

    7 familiar with the kind of vehicle, but the

    8 anti-aircraft gun was a ZSU-23.2 [Interpreter's Note:

    9 "ZSU-23.2" I believe the witness said] it came from

    10 the direction of OP Papa. It was the direction

    11 of the compound Potocari, towards the direction of

    12 Srebrenica. It halted at the edge of a wood,

    13 approximately at a distance of three kilometers --

    14 no, I correct myself -- two kilometres from the

    15 compound. They were firing at the positions in the

    16 eastern direction, in map square 92, where the Muslim

    17 fighters were at that moment.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

    19 Mr. Petrusic, could you now ask your question.

    20 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes,

    21 Mr. President. My first question was also quite

    22 specific, but the witness elaborated on it. I will

    23 continue asking very specific questions, Your Honour.

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,

    25 then. But both of you, both you, Mr. Petrusic, and

  16. 1 counsel for the Prosecution, can always ask the

    2 witness -- can always remind the witness to give

    3 specific answers.

    4 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

    5 Q. Bearing that in mind, therefore, could you

    6 tell us the time of day when this conflict between

    7 Serbian and Bosnian forces occurred?

    8 A. They were already busy quite early in the

    9 morning on that day, and the nearer the Serbs advanced,

    10 the fights became heavier. And during the previous

    11 days, of course, there were also -- we heard some

    12 fights --

    13 Q. Yes. Thank you. Could you now tell us what

    14 date it was?

    15 A. We're mainly talking about the first day.

    16 Q. Could you perhaps refer us to a specific

    17 event which took place on a date which you are sure

    18 about, to put it somehow in context? And then in

    19 respect of that date, if you can please tell us the

    20 exact date of this particular event, which is now

    21 interesting for us.

    22 A. Those -- around the days of the 10th and the

    23 11th, until the Serbs had entered the enclave, then

    24 there was hardly any fighting anymore. But I can't

    25 very well remember the dates. We just lived from day

  17. 1 to day.

    2 Q. Yesterday, Witness F, you testified about a

    3 police transporter or personnel carrier that arrived in

    4 Potocari.

    5 A. Do you mean the blue vehicle?

    6 Q. Yes.

    7 A. That's correct. It had also arrived, yes.

    8 Q. You refer to it as a police personnel

    9 carrier.

    10 A. That vehicle was a blue vehicle. It was very

    11 distinctive between all that green materiel. It was an

    12 armoured vehicle, on wheels.

    13 Q. Were there any police forces in Potocari?

    14 A. Yes. When the troops had all entered, there

    15 were also police officers present, and they mainly

    16 drove Volkswagen Golfs, [Interpreter's Note: "Type E,"

    17 I believe the witness said]. Blue ones.

    18 Q. When did the Muslim refugees start arriving

    19 in Potocari from the direction of Srebrenica? Could

    20 you tell us the date, please?

    21 A. The refugees already had realised that the

    22 tension was mounting, so those refugees had been

    23 gathering a couple of days before the fall, they had

    24 been gathering around the compound. But to repeat, I

    25 don't know all the dates.

  18. 1 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

    2 Mr. President -- very well, then.

    3 Q. Witness F, do you know where the transport of

    4 refugees from Potocari towards Bratunac by buses had

    5 begun?

    6 A. Around noon.

    7 Q. On what day, please?

    8 A. Directly after the fall of the enclave, after

    9 the Serbs had entered.

    10 Q. Was it on the day after the fall of the

    11 enclave?

    12 A. The same day the enclave fell and the Serbs

    13 marched next to the compound, immediately vehicles were

    14 put on the disposal for the refugees, to take them

    15 away.

    16 Q. Did the enclave fall on the 11th of July?

    17 A. That's correct.

    18 Q. Therefore, can we say that the evacuations

    19 started on the 12th -- I'm sorry, on the 11th of July?

    20 A. Immediately after the Serbs had entered, the

    21 buses and trucks came to transport those people. They

    22 came immediately behind the troops. So it was

    23 prepared.

    24 Q. So this took place on the 11th of July?

    25 A. To my knowledge, yes.

  19. 1 Q. Was it on that day that you first saw General

    2 Krstic?

    3 A. That's right.

    4 Q. The next time you saw him was on the

    5 following day?

    6 A. I saw him during two days; that's correct.

    7 Q. So it was on the following day?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Could we say that you yourself concluded

    10 that, in addition to other officers, General Krstic was

    11 trying to look after the things, was trying to make

    12 sure that everything was going on according to a plan?

    13 A. Yes. I think that was the case. Of course,

    14 I didn't know at that time what his function was.

    15 There were several officers present whom I didn't

    16 know. And it was their affair, of course.

    17 Q. So it was your conclusion?

    18 A. Yes, because such an operation is led on a

    19 high level, and that high level is usually present to

    20 see whether everything is going according to plan. Why

    21 else would they be there?

    22 Q. So after the second time you saw General

    23 Krstic, you never saw him again in that area?

    24 A. That's right.

    25 Q. Did you know that a higher ranking officer of

  20. 1 the VRS was arrested and that proceedings have been

    2 opened against him before this International Tribunal?

    3 A. I knew that there were proceedings going on,

    4 but I never really followed against whom and why. I

    5 don't have time for that. I'm too busy with my work.

    6 Q. A film was shown here in the Netherlands,

    7 whose authors, I believe, are some BBC journalists.

    8 The subject of the film were the events which took

    9 place in July 1995 in Srebrenica. The title of the

    10 film was "A Cry from the Grave" or "A Scream from the

    11 Grave." Have you seen that film, by any chance?

    12 A. Actually, during five years, I only heard

    13 negative things about Srebrenica. That is why I did

    14 not -- I didn't want to deal with Srebrenica anymore.

    15 I had enough of it, like many of us. And I was not

    16 interested in Srebrenica anymore. I've been harassed

    17 by these events for long enough now.

    18 Q. And lastly, Witness F, I should like to know

    19 whether, when you saw General Krstic, whether you also

    20 saw him giving any orders to his subordinates, to his

    21 subordinate officers?

    22 A. Of course I was not with the commanders, but

    23 if anything was discussed, it was said and it was

    24 talked about, and they made gestures and they moved

    25 their arms. But I don't know what was said. I don't

  21. 1 understand the language. Of course, there were

    2 directions to follow plans.

    3 In the army, usually the case is that an

    4 order is given out, but it's never carried out as it

    5 was given, so you always have to adapt it.

    6 Q. But in this particular case, do you know

    7 which instructions we are talking about? I mean, the

    8 instructions emanating from General Krstic. And if you

    9 could please give me a yes or no to this question.

    10 A. It was mainly about the transport being

    11 speeded up --

    12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

    13 I apologise, but I wanted a simple yes or no answer

    14 from the witness.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness F,

    16 you have been asked a question by Mr. Petrusic, who

    17 wanted to know whether you are able to -- that is,

    18 whether you were able to hear the instructions that

    19 were allegedly given by General Krstic to his

    20 subordinate officers, and I think that the answer

    21 should be yes or no.

    22 I hope I'm correctly interpreting your

    23 intervention, Mr. Petrusic.

    24 So, please, yes or no.

    25 A. I didn't understand the language, but orders

  22. 1 were given.

    2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

    3 Q. We have a bit of a contradictory answer here,

    4 because if you do not understand the language --

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

    6 Mr. Petrusic -- sorry. I believe the witness has

    7 answered your question. Apparently, there is a slight

    8 contradiction, but the witness is a soldier and I

    9 believe that he's able to understand the so-called

    10 non-verbal aspects of the communication. He said that

    11 he did not hear the General give instructions because

    12 he doesn't speak the language, but it was his

    13 impression that he was giving instructions. So I think

    14 that we should accept this.

    15 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    16 Your Honour. I do not have any more questions for this

    17 witness.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

    19 Mr. Petrusic, I did not want to interrupt the

    20 cross-examination, but I think that we should avoid

    21 repeating what was already said during the direct

    22 examination. We should have a very specific context,

    23 lay some foundations, and then ask specific questions.

    24 We, of course, have a possibility to discuss later on

    25 evidence given by witnesses in general. There will be

  23. 1 enough time for that, and the Defence, as well as the

    2 Prosecution, will have an opportunity to do so at the

    3 end, to make their submissions. At this point in time,

    4 we are just hearing the evidence. You are doing your

    5 job, both the Defence and the Prosecution, and we, the

    6 Judges, are listening.

    7 So in future cases, please try not to oblige

    8 the witness to repeat what has already been said during

    9 the direct examination, and try to restrict yourself to

    10 specific and concrete questions. Thank you, once

    11 again, Mr. Petrusic.

    12 Mr. McCloskey, will there be any redirect

    13 examination?

    14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just briefly, Mr. President.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

    16 Mr. McCloskey, let us hear you.

    17 Re-examined by Mr. McCloskey:

    18 Q. I believe you've testified that you're not

    19 sure about the various dates of these incidents; is

    20 that correct?

    21 A. That's correct.

    22 Q. Are you clear that the day that the Bosnian

    23 Serb troops came into Potocari is the same day that the

    24 transportation of the refugees began?

    25 A. When the Serbs had entered, immediately after

  24. 1 them the vehicles arrived in order to transport the

    2 people. That's correct.

    3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. I don't have

    4 anything further, Mr. President.

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    6 Mr. McCloskey.

    7 Judge Fouad Riad.

    8 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    9 Mr. President.

    10 Questioned by the Court:

    11 JUDGE RIAD: I'll call you Witness F. Good

    12 morning. My questions will be of a general character

    13 and would help us draw the conclusions without going

    14 into details most of the time. In fact, my questions

    15 turn around to main things, the role of the Drina Corps

    16 in this organisation, which you mentioned was very well

    17 organised and it was a well-prepared stage.

    18 Now, what was the role of the Drina Corps, in

    19 your opinion, in this very well-organised stage? Was

    20 it a prominent role? Was it a leading role? What was

    21 your assessment?

    22 A. In my opinion, to cleanse the area as quickly

    23 as possible, mop it up from all sides. As you know,

    24 there were also military advancing from Srebrenica.

    25 And from the vicinity of Bratunac, also units were

  25. 1 advancing. So they closed the whole Muslim fighting

    2 area. That was a prepared operation, very well

    3 prepared indeed. And immediately afterwards, they

    4 mopped up the area, cleared it of all resistance, so

    5 that within a couple of days the area was under their

    6 command. So that the main road from Bratunac towards

    7 Srebrenica was in their own hands, because for them

    8 that was a main road in this area.

    9 JUDGE RIAD: And the Drina Corps was there

    10 all the time?

    11 A. Yes, it was always present.

    12 JUDGE RIAD: Always present. And it is also

    13 a well-organised corps. What you said, that the Serbs

    14 were very well-organised, this applies also to the

    15 Drina Corps?

    16 A. Yes, certainly.

    17 JUDGE RIAD: And a good chain of command?

    18 I'm repeating you. With a good chain of command?

    19 A. Yes, indeed, there was very good command.

    20 They were disciplined men, they were experienced

    21 military men. Indeed, it was a well-planned

    22 operation.

    23 JUDGE RIAD: You did not notice that some

    24 soldiers were just going wild and doing whatever they

    25 wanted, killing or raping, whatever they wanted?

  26. 1 A. During the first stage, what I for myself --

    2 what I called the disciplined military, had the main

    3 area to mop up the area as quickly as possible. And

    4 the second stage, those were the Rambo-types, a bit

    5 wild, indeed, who looted other houses, took away

    6 belongings, and I'm sure they have -- they committed --

    7 the witnesses who committed human rights, they were

    8 under the command of another commanding person. I

    9 think they were kind of temporary soldiers, like

    10 temps. I don't think that the first line committed

    11 those acts, because they didn't have time for that.

    12 They had another duty. They had the duty to empty the

    13 area of rebels and resistance.

    14 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you mentioned several cases

    15 where you saw General Krstic. I noted them, but of

    16 course you know them as well as I. He was with General

    17 Mladic when he was distributing the sweets to the

    18 children, and then you saw him when he wanted to enter

    19 the compound to see how many refugees were there.

    20 That's the first day.

    21 You apparently saw him the second day, around

    22 the White House, looking whether everything went

    23 according to plan. And you also mentioned that you saw

    24 him with high-ranking officers of the VRS, standing and

    25 looking around to see if everything was according to

  27. 1 plan, near the interrogation house. Apart from other

    2 things.

    3 And also you mentioned that he was there to

    4 see that everything was going according to plan.

    5 Now, doesn't that really -- that doesn't

    6 really fit in, when you say that the others were doing

    7 what they wanted. If he was there to see if everything

    8 was going to plan, then there was someone in control of

    9 the situation. Was he in control of the situation?

    10 A. Indeed, he was constantly present, but those

    11 rebels or those Rambo-types just went their own way.

    12 On the second day, when I took the pictures

    13 in the vicinity, the pictures of the bodies, there were

    14 many Rambo-types around. They guarded the surroundings

    15 and they were in houses and on chairs, all sitting on

    16 material belonging to Muslims, and they used stuff and

    17 they took it along, and he didn't say anything about

    18 it. Those people carried alcohol, cigarettes. They

    19 had stolen our watches, our weapons, and nothing was

    20 said about that.

    21 JUDGE RIAD: Now, to take an example, when

    22 you mentioned today that he was with high-ranking

    23 officers, standing and looking around, I even asked you

    24 what he was looking at. And the dead bodies which you

    25 spoke about, with the bloodstains on the back of their

  28. 1 heads and so on, were lying behind -- were lying behind

    2 the interrogation house. Was it possible that he would

    3 just not see anything of what's happening?

    4 A. Nine to ten corpses which I found were

    5 diagonally in an open field at the edge of a forest,

    6 near a creek, behind the interrogation house, about 700

    7 metres from the compound. I don't think it was visible

    8 by Dutch military men, but I'm sure that he knew about

    9 it.

    10 JUDGE RIAD: How far were these dead bodies

    11 from the interrogation house?

    12 A. 400 to 450 metres. That's my estimate.

    13 JUDGE RIAD: And other things you mentioned,

    14 for instance, the babies -- when you mentioned the

    15 first night, people hanged themselves and there were

    16 dead babies inside the compound. Is anybody in control

    17 of this situation? Would it be possible for him to be

    18 completely unaware of it?

    19 A. You mean somebody belonging to DutchBat?

    20 JUDGE RIAD: No. General Krstic. Somebody

    21 in control.

    22 A. Of course they knew about this.

    23 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you.

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    25 Judge Riad.

  29. 1 I should like the witness to look again at

    2 Exhibit 5/2. Here it is.

    3 Witness F, you mentioned the site marked "F"

    4 as the point of observation where you observed a series

    5 of events which you then described to us; is that

    6 correct?

    7 A. That is absolutely correct.

    8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can you use

    9 the pointer and indicate on the ELMO -- will you please

    10 turn to the ELMO?

    11 Perhaps, Mr. Usher, you could help the

    12 witness.

    13 Can you tell us: What was the angle at which

    14 you were observing these events? Could you trace it?

    15 Could you mark it with the marker? Could you use the

    16 marker to show at which angle you were? Could you just

    17 draw at which angle were you watching it, the visual

    18 angle.

    19 A. [Marks]

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just to get

    21 our bearings right. Could you perhaps put next to

    22 letter "F", "north" and "south."

    23 A. [Marks]

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So now

    25 north is the direction of Bratunac. Is that so? And

  30. 1 then Srebrenica to the south.

    2 A. That's correct. Yes.

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And for

    4 west and east, we have mountains on those two sides.

    5 A. That's correct.

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Now, I

    7 should like to ask you: How long were you at that

    8 particular site observing, more or less? How long did

    9 you observe them from that particular place?

    10 A. The day before the fall, plus the night, till

    11 about 11.00 on the first day. I think 15 or 16 hours.

    12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So if I

    13 understand you well, you were there on the 10th, during

    14 the night between the 10th and 11th, and on the 11th

    15 until about 11.00.

    16 A. That's right.

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did you go

    18 back to your observation point after 11.00 on the

    19 11th of July?

    20 A. Yes. This position had been prepared when

    21 the situation -- when the tension was mounting, so it

    22 also had to be broken down. So this was an additional

    23 position on the compound.

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you did

    25 not come back to this observation post. You picked out

  31. 1 a different observation post; is that correct?

    2 A. Indeed. I had been assigned to another

    3 place, yes, and of course there was a command for me,

    4 when the Serbs had already entered.

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. And

    6 where was this other observation post?

    7 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me. Could you

    8 please ask the witness to start again. I'm sorry.

    9 Interpreter's mistake. Could you please ask the

    10 witness to start again.

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.

    12 Excuse me, Witness F. You really have to speak slowly

    13 and make a pause between question and answer.

    14 THE INTERPRETER: And could the witness speak

    15 up, please.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We need a

    17 double pause because we are not in the usual situation

    18 with the interpreters. With the working conditions

    19 that we have now, we need twice as much time for breaks

    20 so the interpreters can catch up with you. So will you

    21 please begin once again? So your second observation

    22 post, where was it?

    23 THE INTERPRETER: And could the witness speak

    24 up, please.

    25 A. The Muslim refugees were already present on

  32. 1 the compound, and I was assigned to take up an

    2 additional position at the arrow "UN base." This was,

    3 at the same time, the toilet for all the Muslim

    4 refugees, so I was literally standing in you know

    5 what.

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] My second

    7 question is as follows, Witness F: Where were you when

    8 you saw General Krstic?

    9 A. At the moment -- at that moment, I was at the

    10 main entrance to the compound, this location

    11 [indicates].

    12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another

    13 question. Where was General Krstic?

    14 A. At the centre of all the happenings, around

    15 the refugees, so he was in the centre between the main

    16 entrance, the bus complex, and the White House, around

    17 the compound.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Now,

    19 Witness F, I will ask you to use the pointer to show

    20 the place where you saw General Krstic. And I'm going

    21 to use also the transcript which the Prosecutor used --

    22 I can use another letter, if we need one, in addition

    23 to the letter used by the Prosecutor.

    24 Can you show us on this exhibit, where were

    25 you when you saw General Krstic? Where was the place

  33. 1 from which you saw General Krstic? And mark it with a

    2 "G". We had an "F" on the exhibit, didn't we?

    3 A. [Marks]

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very good.

    5 Now, will you mark the place where General Krstic was

    6 at the time, and put an "H" next to it.

    7 A. [Marks]

    8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another

    9 question, Witness F. How far away are points "H" and

    10 "G"?

    11 A. Ten to fifteen metres. They just were

    12 walking around together.

    13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ten to

    14 fifteen metres; is that so?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another

    17 question. Were there any barriers, anything that would

    18 obstruct your view, houses or trees or anything,

    19 between the place where you were standing and the place

    20 where General Krstic was?

    21 A. There were no obstacles, no trees, no rocks.

    22 There were security people, but nothing else.

    23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So all the

    24 other VRS officers whom you mentioned, General Mladic,

    25 Commander Nikolic, and others, they were also there, at

  34. 1 this place around point "H", were they?

    2 A. Around point "H".

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another

    4 question. Why do you say that this person who is

    5 sitting behind in the dock is the same person that you

    6 saw from -- that you saw at point "H"?

    7 A. I don't understand your question. I'm

    8 sorry.

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I see

    10 that you couldn't understand because I was trying not

    11 to lead you. You're saying that General Krstic, and

    12 that is the person who is sitting here in the bottom of

    13 this room, was on the 11th and the 12th of July -- that

    14 you saw him in that place. Why is it, how, on the

    15 basis of what are you concluding that this is one and

    16 the same person?

    17 Sorry. Did somebody tell you, "This is

    18 General Krstic," or did General Krstic meet you and

    19 introduce himself and say, "I'm General Krstic"? That

    20 is it. Can you understand now? How did you know?

    21 A. Nobody came up to me and told me that this is

    22 the General, but I recognise his face. I recognise it

    23 very well.

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you're

    25 saying that this is -- that this was General Krstic,

  35. 1 because when you arrived here to the courtroom, you

    2 recognised this person as that person whom you already

    3 saw on the 11th and the 12th of July at that place. Is

    4 that what we can infer from your answer, Witness F?

    5 A. That's correct.

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

    7 Tell us another thing. On the 11th of July and on the

    8 12th of July, so on the two occasions that you saw

    9 General Krstic, did you always see him at that same

    10 place, at "H", or did you see him in different places?

    11 A. Of course, he moved around, but I saw him at

    12 those points. And for the rest, I was busy with my own

    13 work. I didn't always pay attention to him.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Now, this

    15 was not my last question, Witness F. I'm sorry. I

    16 should like to -- if you can -- but I think that your

    17 training enables you to tell us the results of your

    18 observation.

    19 With regard to what you saw concerning

    20 General Krstic, what is it that you saw? Don't give us

    21 your conjectures, but if possible, describe to us --

    22 because you had your camera. So as in a photograph,

    23 tell us, what did you observe with regard to General

    24 Krstic? It is both difficult and easy.

    25 A. Indeed, it's difficult to find the right

  36. 1 words to describe it. I think a mass murder of a great

    2 amount of people, of many people, which were taken out

    3 by military apparatus. And it was certainly

    4 well-prepared, and many civilians were victims of this,

    5 amongst them children, women, men, and that is to put

    6 it in very soft words. The film "Schindler's List" was

    7 nothing compared to that. It was really horrible. And

    8 you can understand that, for me, this is a very

    9 emotional affair.

    10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness F,

    11 I want to ask you now: General Krstic -- who did

    12 General Krstic talk to, if he talked?

    13 A. With several officers. I apologise for being

    14 so emotional, but after five years, things are

    15 emerging.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] That is

    17 quite natural, Witness F. It is human to

    18 have emotions, and we understand how you feel and we

    19 respect that too. But if you answer my question, I

    20 will try to ask short questions, and you can answer

    21 them directly. If you want a break, then we can make a

    22 break. Shall we continue? Very well. Thank you.

    23 So were there some individuals who came and

    24 went to General Krstic?

    25 A. Yes. I think they were mainly officers, and

  37. 1 I didn't observe it for the rest. I was busy with

    2 other things, unfortunately.

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And did

    4 General Krstic use some means of communication; that

    5 is, a radio, walkie-talkie, or something else that he

    6 used?

    7 A. I didn't observe it directly.

    8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] From what

    9 you saw, were there some individuals who looked as if

    10 they were asking questions of General Krstic or

    11 supplying him with some information?

    12 A. Yes, indeed. There was some consultation

    13 going on around the generals and the officers.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] When

    15 General Krstic moved from the place where he spent most

    16 of the time, that is, point "H", and when he moved away

    17 from there, did you have an opportunity to see what he

    18 was going to do?

    19 A. Mainly he walked around and looked whether

    20 everything was going according to plan, but I didn't

    21 see what he did exactly.

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Right. I

    23 believe you have provided us with a great deal of

    24 information. I think that Judge Riad has yet another

    25 question.

  38. 1 Judge Riad.

    2 JUDGE RIAD: Witness F, I'm not going to

    3 prolong your discomfort much longer, but to the best of

    4 your knowledge, and this is a question of general

    5 assessment and if you remember: Was General Krstic

    6 present all the time in all the events during these two

    7 days, or was he -- because you mentioned that he was

    8 there when they were distributing sweets to the

    9 children in front of the camera, and he was there to

    10 meet important people -- but apart from that, you never

    11 referred to him. You would say that General Krstic

    12 wanted to enter the compound to see how many refugees

    13 were hiding. It was Krstic that was entering, not

    14 Mladic. And in other cases, he was looking whether

    15 everything was according to plan. You referred to

    16 Krstic as if he was in control and there was no

    17 Mladic. Was Mladic not there anymore?

    18 A. I didn't see him anymore. I think he was one

    19 of the responsibles in assigning duties to the

    20 military.

    21 JUDGE RIAD: So it appeared to you that it

    22 was Krstic who was in charge in the execution, and he

    23 had the control?

    24 A. Yes, I think he was one of the big officers

    25 who were in charge, yes, who had been assigned this

  39. 1 task.

    2 JUDGE RIAD: Was it apparent that there was

    3 somebody higher than him, someone who Mladic considered

    4 higher in hierarchy?

    5 A. Yes. That's right.

    6 JUDGE RIAD: No. My question is: Was there

    7 someone higher than Krstic in hierarchy, between Mladic

    8 Krstic?

    9 A. Not at that moment at that point and in that

    10 place, but I think there was some evaluation going on

    11 with the chief of staff in higher levels.

    12 JUDGE RIAD: But not at this level, not on

    13 the ground.

    14 A. Not directly there.

    15 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    17 Judge Riad.

    18 Witness F, only a point of clarification.

    19 Exhibit 5/2, on which you marked the angles at which

    20 you observed, and for the record, can one say that

    21 basically your angle of observation was towards west or

    22 north, to the east, but not to the south? Yes?

    23 A. That's right. My view towards the south was

    24 blocked by the high tower on the compound. I could

    25 look over the roof of the compound till the high tower

  40. 1 and the beginning of the compound.

    2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I

    3 see. In any event, I believe the exhibit and the

    4 record show quite clearly that your field of visibility

    5 went in three directions, except for the south.

    6 Very well, Witness F. You have finished your

    7 testimony. You testified for a long time here. You

    8 lived through these events. The Prosecution, the

    9 Defence, and the Bench and the Chamber asked you a

    10 number of questions. But is there something that you

    11 would like to say and yet have had no opportunity to

    12 say before in answering questions? If there is

    13 anything of that kind, you can do so now.

    14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very

    15 much. Again, for me, after five years, this is the

    16 first time I can talk about these photographs. Hardly

    17 anybody knew about it. I'm very grateful to you for

    18 listening to my story, and I think this is a very good

    19 thing for history and for human rights. Thank you very

    20 much.

    21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I also

    22 hope, we all hope, Witness F, that it will also be good

    23 for you and for your peace of mind, having been able to

    24 say all those things, to recount all those things that

    25 you have kept to yourself for such a long time. We

  41. 1 thank you very much for coming here. Somebody will

    2 help you leave the courtroom.

    3 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Before you

    4 release the witness, I am referring to 5/2A, as marked

    5 by the witness, 5/3A, 59, 60, 61, 62, and 63 are all

    6 Prosecution Exhibits.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

    8 Mr. McCloskey.

    9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. We would

    10 tender those into evidence.

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

    12 Mr. Petrusic, any objection?

    13 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No,

    14 Mr. President.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] These

    16 exhibits were tendered and admitted. Mr. Dubuisson,

    17 you will take care of all the bureaucratic measures

    18 that are needed.

    19 Witness F, thank you. I should also like to

    20 thank the interpreters who were with us.

    21 [The witness withdrew]

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon,

    23 before the break, what do we have next?

    24 MR. HARMON: Good morning, Mr. President,

    25 Your Honours; good morning, counsel.

  42. 1 We have two witnesses remaining for the day.

    2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In open

    3 session or do we need any protection measures?

    4 MR. HARMON: Yes. That's correct. Both

    5 witnesses will need protection measures. The first

    6 will be in public session with face distortion and a

    7 pseudonym; the second, we are requesting a closed

    8 session.

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

    10 Mr. Petrusic, do you have any objection as to the

    11 application of protective measures? We know that in

    12 principle you do not object to protective measures, but

    13 it has to be made clear for the record.

    14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes,

    15 Mr. President. Before we began this morning, we didn't

    16 have an opportunity to consult, so I do not know the

    17 order of witnesses. So this should be perhaps left for

    18 after the break. We should be made familiar with the

    19 order of witnesses, because we do not know which

    20 particular witness is requesting what protective

    21 measures.

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon,

    23 can you respond to that?

    24 MR. HARMON: I was under the impression that

    25 we did provide the order of witnesses, but if it's

  43. 1 unclear, I'm happy to do so again over the break.

    2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, but as

    3 far as we understood you yesterday, there may have been

    4 some changes that occurred in the meantime.

    5 Mr. Harmon, is the order, therefore, the same

    6 as yesterday?

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think

    8 that Mr. Harmon has suggested that you can solve the

    9 issue during the break. However, let me remind you of

    10 one thing that is quite important for our work, that

    11 is, how we should proceed, because during the break we

    12 can undertake all the necessary measures for the next

    13 witness. So Mr. Harmon said that he could tell you

    14 everything about the next witness during the break.

    15 Mr. Dubuisson, I hope that all the measures

    16 will be taken so that we can start right away with the

    17 witness once we come back from the break, and I hope

    18 that protective measures will be applied.

    19 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes. Very

    20 well, Mr. President. We will be sitting in public

    21 session for the next witness.

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] A 20-minute

    23 break.

    24 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

    25 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

  44. 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

    2 afternoon, Witness. Can you hear me? Could you please

    3 now read the solemn declaration.

    4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

    5 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

    6 and nothing but the truth.


    8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be

    10 seated now.

    11 Are you comfortable, sir?

    12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.

    13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I hope you

    14 have been well treated here in The Hague.

    15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excellent.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We shall

    17 try to do the same. Witness, I should like to thank

    18 you first for coming here, and let me just explain to

    19 you that you will first be answering questions put to

    20 you by Mr. Harmon, who is representing the Prosecution,

    21 as soon as we have made sure that everything is in

    22 order and that we can communicate properly.

    23 I can see that Mr. Harmon is satisfied that

    24 everything is okay. Mr. Harmon, you have the floor.

    25 MR. HARMON: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President,

  45. 1 Judge Riad.

    2 Examined by Mr. Harmon:

    3 Q. Sir, could you state your name?

    4 A. Ademovic, Bego.

    5 Q. How do you spell your last name?

    6 A. A-d-e-m-o-v-i-c, "Bego" being my first name.

    7 Q. How old are you, sir?

    8 A. I'm 58.

    9 MR. HARMON: I didn't get a translation in

    10 the English.

    11 A. Fifty-eight.

    12 MR. HARMON:

    13 Q. Could you tell us; are you a Muslim by faith,

    14 Mr. Ademovic?

    15 A. Yes, I am.

    16 Q. And can you tell us about your education?

    17 How far did you go in school?

    18 A. I have the first four forms of the elementary

    19 school, and I'm a driver by profession.

    20 Q. Do you have some difficulty in reading?

    21 A. Well, I can't read very well.

    22 Q. Now, you said that you were a driver by

    23 profession. How many years were you --

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. -- how many years were you a driver?

  46. 1 A. Thirty.

    2 Q. And what kind of vehicles did you drive?

    3 A. All kinds of transport vehicles and buses.

    4 Q. And where are were you employed as a driver?

    5 A. I worked at the Vihor Company and the

    6 Partizanski Put Company in Belgrade.

    7 Q. And where is the Vihor Company located?

    8 A. In Bratunac.

    9 Q. And how long were you employed as a driver in

    10 Bratunac?

    11 A. I worked there for less than a year. I mean,

    12 I worked less than a year in the Partizanski Put

    13 Company.

    14 Q. And, therefore, did you work for a number of

    15 years in Bratunac as a driver?

    16 A. Well, yes. I retired as a driver.

    17 Q. Now, before the war started, where did you

    18 live?

    19 A. In the village of Dzile, the municipality of

    20 Vlasenica.

    21 Q. Now, are you married?

    22 A. Yes, and I'm a father of four children.

    23 Q. Now, I'd like to draw your attention to the

    24 events that took place before the fall of the

    25 Srebrenica enclave, and let me ask you; before the fall

  47. 1 of the enclave, were you living in the village of

    2 Kutezero?

    3 A. Yes, I was.

    4 Q. Where is that in relation to the town of

    5 Srebrenica?

    6 A. It is situated in the direction of the Radava

    7 Mountain, in the vicinity of Srebrenica.

    8 Q. And how far away is it from the town of

    9 Srebrenica, that particular village?

    10 A. About ten kilometres, I couldn't be more

    11 precise. Maybe less than ten kilometres.

    12 Q. When you were living in that village, with

    13 whom were you living?

    14 A. With my mother, with my uncle, my wife, my

    15 two sons, my two daughters-in-law, and my four

    16 grandchildren.

    17 Q. Now, at some point in time, Mr. Ademovic, did

    18 the Bosnian Serb army come into the enclave and did you

    19 leave that village?

    20 A. I'm sorry. I don't understand your

    21 question.

    22 Q. At some point in time, did you flee from the

    23 village of Kutezero?

    24 A. I was living in Dzile, and then I fled Dzile

    25 after the fall of the Srebrenica municipality, and then

  48. 1 I reached Kutezero. If you're asking me about the fall

    2 of Srebrenica, well, yes, at that time, I fled from

    3 Kutezero.

    4 Q. And with whom did you flee the village?

    5 A. I fled with my daughters-in-law, and with my

    6 mother, and my uncle had died before the fall of

    7 Srebrenica, and our grandchildren were with us as

    8 well.

    9 Q. And why did you flee?

    10 A. Well, I fled from Chetniks. I didn't want to

    11 be slaughtered by them.

    12 Q. Where did you go?

    13 A. We went to Potocari.

    14 Q. Now, did all of you who had fled from your

    15 village arrive in Potocari?

    16 A. I don't know about that.

    17 Q. Did your mother arrive in Potocari?

    18 A. My mother couldn't walk, so she couldn't

    19 continue, and she remained in the woods, and that's

    20 where she died.

    21 Q. Now, let me ask you; do you remember the day

    22 when you arrived in Potocari?

    23 A. It was on a Tuesday, on the 11th.

    24 Q. Was that the 11th of July, 1995?

    25 A. Yes.

  49. 1 Q. And where did you and your wife and other

    2 members of your family take refuge?

    3 A. At the Zinc Factory in Potocari. There were

    4 lots of people there.

    5 Q. Now, when you arrived in the Zinc Factory,

    6 was there any shooting going on in and around the Zinc

    7 Factory?

    8 A. There was some shelling and some gunfire.

    9 People got injured by shells, fragments of shells.

    10 There may have been casualties or fatalities, but I'm

    11 not sure.

    12 Q. Okay. And when you arrived in Potocari on

    13 the 11th of July, were there other refugees in and

    14 around the Zinc Factory?

    15 A. Yes. Yes, a lot of people, a crowd of

    16 people.

    17 Q. Are you able to estimate how many people

    18 there were?

    19 A. Over 2.000 or 3.000, probably more than

    20 that.

    21 Q. Did you and your wife and family members take

    22 refuge inside the Zinc Factory or outside on the

    23 grounds around the Zinc Factory?

    24 A. Around the Zinc Factory, coming from the

    25 direction of Bratunac.

  50. 1 Q. Now, at some point in time, did members of

    2 the Bosnian Serb army arrive in Potocari?

    3 A. No, they didn't.

    4 Q. When did members of the Bosnian Serb army

    5 arrive in Potocari?

    6 A. On the following day, after 10.00, on

    7 Wednesday.

    8 Q. So that would be the 12th of July; is that

    9 correct?

    10 A. Yes, the 12th of July.

    11 Q. Now, could you see in which direction the

    12 Bosnian Serb soldiers were coming?

    13 A. We were first told to clear the asphalt area,

    14 that soldiers would be coming from the direction of

    15 Srebrenica, and they came in in a column of two, and

    16 then they continued towards Bratunac. And then

    17 Chetniks started arriving from all directions.

    18 Q. Now, did you recognise any members of the

    19 Bosnian Serb army who had come in to Potocari?

    20 A. I recognised only a colleague of mine from

    21 Vihor, Lazic. He worked there as a bus driver, and he

    22 was working in the reserve section.

    23 Q. When you say "the reserve section," do you

    24 mean the reserve section of the bus company or the

    25 reserve section of the army?

  51. 1 A. Of the former Yugoslavia, Tito's Yugoslavia.

    2 Q. And when you say "reserve section," what are

    3 you referring to?

    4 A. Oh, he was wearing clothes, this particular

    5 suit.

    6 Q. Can you describe the particular suit he was

    7 wearing?

    8 A. It was grey in colour. It was a warm kind of

    9 clothing.

    10 Q. Okay. Did you see anybody else?

    11 A. I couldn't recognise anyone else. I didn't

    12 recognise anyone in the column.

    13 Q. Did you, later on, notice any Bosnian Serb

    14 soldiers you knew by name who may not have walked in in

    15 the column but may have been walking amongst the

    16 people?

    17 A. There was a huge crowd of people, and I knew

    18 only knew Zoran Mirosavljevic.

    19 Q. How was he dressed?

    20 A. He was wearing a camouflage suit.

    21 Q. Now, let me ask you to focus your attention

    22 on that day again, the 12th of July, and ask you if you

    23 saw a conversation taking place between a Bosnian Serb

    24 soldier and a family of Bosnian Muslims. Did you see a

    25 conversation taking place, and could you describe to

  52. 1 the Judges what you saw and what you heard?

    2 A. Yes. There were lots of Chetniks walking

    3 around, quite a few people were sitting next to me.

    4 There was one man, together with his wife and their two

    5 children, son and daughter. Two soldiers approached

    6 them. They said hello to the man and the girl, and

    7 they inquired about their health. And they said to the

    8 man, "Let us take your wife and your daughter so that

    9 they can be put on the first buses," and the man said,

    10 "No. We're not going to separate." But they grabbed

    11 the girl and they took her away from him. The wife

    12 fainted, and the man was motionless. He was simply

    13 watching this thing happen. And the girl was taken

    14 away in the direction of Srebrenica, from the Zinc

    15 Factory.

    16 Q. Do you know what happened to that girl?

    17 A. No, I don't know.

    18 Q. Can you tell the Judges how those soldiers

    19 were dressed?

    20 A. They were wearing camouflage suits.

    21 Q. What colour was the camouflage?

    22 A. It was multi-coloured.

    23 Q. Was there any particular dominant colour, any

    24 particular ...

    25 A. It wasn't very visible. I'm not a specialist

  53. 1 for colours. It was difficult to tell.

    2 Q. Okay. Do you know the kind of camouflage

    3 uniforms worn by the army and the kind of camouflage

    4 uniforms worn by the police? Do you know the

    5 difference between those two?

    6 A. No. I cannot tell the difference.

    7 Q. Did you know the names of those particular

    8 soldiers who took away the girl?

    9 A. No. I don't know them at all.

    10 Q. Now, while you were in the Zinc compound

    11 area, did you see other Serb soldiers walking among the

    12 refugees?

    13 A. I didn't see them do anything. They were

    14 just cursing at people, calling them names, telling

    15 them that they would be slaughtered, that they would

    16 end out their lives there. They were telling them to

    17 leave the area, that it was a Serb country, that it was

    18 part of the Greater Serbia.

    19 Q. Now, how were the soldiers who were making

    20 those curses, do you remember how they were dressed?

    21 A. The same. The same kind of suit.

    22 Q. Camouflage suits; is that correct?

    23 A. Camouflage.

    24 Q. Could you see any particular marks or badges

    25 or patches on those soldiers?

  54. 1 A. I could only see them on Zoran Mirosavljevic,

    2 but those who were cursing did not wear any insignia.

    3 Only Zoran had some kind of badge on his arm.

    4 Q. Do you remember what kind of badge Zoran had

    5 on his arm? Could you describe it?

    6 A. I cannot describe it. I only saw that he had

    7 some kind of insignia, but I wasn't paying attention to

    8 it.

    9 Q. Mr. Ademovic, at some point in time when you

    10 were walking in and around the Zinc Factory, did you

    11 see a violent incident involving a child?

    12 A. Yes, I did.

    13 Q. Can you tell the Judges what you saw?

    14 A. Yes, I can.

    15 Q. Please, tell the Judges what you saw.

    16 A. After they'd taken away the girl, the

    17 situation was a bit calmer. I walked around the Zinc

    18 Factory -- I wanted to get to my wife and my

    19 daughter-in-law -- and I went by a soldier where there

    20 was many people. There was a woman carrying a child in

    21 her arms, and the soldier asked her whether the baby's

    22 name was Alija. She said it wasn't. Then he inquired

    23 whether it was a boy, and the woman said yes. Then he

    24 bent down, took a knife out, he took the baby and hit

    25 the baby with a knife here, like this. I turned around

  55. 1 and the baby fell down. It was dead.

    2 Q. When you say "he hit the baby here," where

    3 did he strike the baby with the knife?

    4 A. Here [indicates], in the chest. Under the

    5 head, near the neck.

    6 Q. What happened then?

    7 A. I went back. I didn't know what happened

    8 then. I only learned that the child was dead. But I

    9 fled in the opposite direction.

    10 Q. Now, can you tell the Judges how that soldier

    11 was dressed?

    12 A. He had the same kind of suit as others were

    13 wearing.

    14 Q. That is a camouflage suit.

    15 A. Yes, camouflage.

    16 Q. At the time that that baby was murdered, were

    17 there other refugees in and around that crime scene?

    18 A. Yes. You couldn't move through them. They

    19 were standing next to each other.

    20 Q. What was the reaction of the people who saw

    21 this killing of this child?

    22 A. There wasn't much reaction. After that, it

    23 was as if things were normal.

    24 Q. Okay. And later on in the day -- let me ask

    25 you this question, Mr. Ademovic: About what time of

  56. 1 the day did that happen, if you can remember?

    2 A. I didn't have a watch, but I think that it

    3 could have been around 12.00.

    4 Q. Now, did you, that day, attempt to go get

    5 some water for your family?

    6 A. Yes, I did. I went up the hill, in the

    7 direction of Srebrenica, and wanted to take some

    8 water. I also wanted to get some food. I wanted to

    9 find something to cook for my children. And then I was

    10 stopped by a soldier. And this took place before

    11 10.00. There were Serb troops over there, and there

    12 was a kind of ribbon which prevented us from moving

    13 on. So I turned around and went back.

    14 Q. Where did you go?

    15 A. I went outside the compound of the Zinc

    16 Factory.

    17 Q. And where outside the compound of the Zinc

    18 Factory did you go?

    19 A. Outside the Zinc Factory. I mean, up the

    20 hill, towards a barn. There were a lot of people

    21 there. The situation was somewhat calmer at that point

    22 in time, and people were moving around. They went up

    23 to a meadow, and they were drinking and eating, but

    24 they were mostly silent.

    25 Q. Were you with anybody?

  57. 1 A. I was with Dzemal Karic. There were a lot of

    2 people around us, but the two of us stuck together.

    3 Q. At some point in time, did a Serb soldier

    4 appear?

    5 A. Yes, they appeared from behind. We spent

    6 some time sitting there, and at one point somebody said

    7 that Serb soldiers were coming. And people fled to the

    8 Zinc Factory. And the two of us, we went to a barn and

    9 we hid there. And we didn't follow the people who went

    10 towards the Zinc Factory, and they didn't see us.

    11 Q. So you were hidden in a barn or near a barn,

    12 on a hillside, overlooking the Zinc Factory; is that

    13 correct?

    14 A. There was a shed below the stable, and we hid

    15 behind that shed.

    16 Q. What did you see when you hid behind that

    17 shed?

    18 A. Two Serb soldiers followed the people, and

    19 they went in through a hole of the Zinc Factory fence.

    20 They took three Bosniak men from that -- through that

    21 hole, and they moved in the direction of Aljo's house.

    22 We saw them, and we were actually watching in their

    23 direction. There were between 10 and 15 people there,

    24 between the Zinc Factory and Aljo's house. There was a

    25 kind of ramp that had been prepared there, and they

  58. 1 moved the people towards that location. There were two

    2 Chetniks and some other soldiers as well, and they were

    3 taking people -- taking men by their arms. They would

    4 hold them by an arm behind their back. The third one

    5 would grab the person by the hair. They would turn in

    6 the direction of the Zinc Factory and they would kill

    7 those men by -- with a kind of machete, decapitating

    8 them.

    9 Q. How many people were involved in this killing

    10 operation?

    11 A. I couldn't exactly tell. They all looked the

    12 same. They were wearing the same kind of clothing,

    13 they were more or less of the same age. There were

    14 between eight and ten of them. I don't know if this

    15 was done always by the same person, or rather the same

    16 persons, but they were there, lined up. And I couldn't

    17 tell you anything more precise.

    18 Q. Do you recall what the men who were doing the

    19 killings were wearing?

    20 A. This same kind of clothing; the one that was

    21 worn by other soldiers.

    22 Q. Camouflage clothing?

    23 A. Yes, camouflage clothing.

    24 Q. Now, after you witnessed these first three

    25 men being killed, tell the Judges what happened.

  59. 1 A. The two soldiers went back, and they were

    2 bringing in other Bosniak men. And then a truck

    3 arrived, coming from the cornfield. And when the truck

    4 was filled with dead bodies, they had some kind of

    5 camouflage bags, they ordered some Muslims to fill up

    6 those camouflage bags, which were then put onto a

    7 truck. And they kept working like this for a while.

    8 Q. Did the truck with the bodies leave the area?

    9 A. Yes, on several occasions, and it would come

    10 back.

    11 Q. And after the truck left the area, what

    12 happened?

    13 A. The truck would leave the area, and then it

    14 would come back again. The last time it came, it was

    15 already at dusk.

    16 Q. Let me ask you, Mr. Ademovic, how long was it

    17 that you watched killings take place from your location

    18 near the shed?

    19 A. It must have been, I'm not too sure, but it

    20 must have been two hours. More. More.

    21 Q. Now, during this period of time, did you or

    22 your colleague, Mr. Karic, keep a count of how many

    23 people you had seen murdered?

    24 A. Dzemal Karic had a box of cigarettes, Drina,

    25 from a Sarajevo factory, and he had a short pencil.

  60. 1 And as they were taking them away, he was writing four,

    2 then five, then seven, and on. And then he added it

    3 up, and we got the figure of 83. But the pencil

    4 broke. Anyway, it was a stub only, so that it couldn't

    5 write any longer, and they were still taking people

    6 away.

    7 Q. Are you able to estimate the number of people

    8 you saw killed in the fashion which you've described?

    9 A. What he added up was the correct sum, 83, but

    10 they continued taking people away, and then we could

    11 not write anymore. But there must have been over 100.

    12 Q. Now, please continue describing what occurred

    13 at that location.

    14 A. Night had already fallen, but it wasn't quite

    15 dark yet. I knew those people from sight. I didn't

    16 know their names. And the last batch, in it I

    17 recognised Hazim Lonjinac in that last group of five

    18 men. And then all of a sudden noise started, and those

    19 people came back alive, that group of five men. And

    20 they left. And we entered the Zinc Factory. And I

    21 found Hazim Lonjinac, who had been with that group,

    22 with a child in his arms. He's some kind of a

    23 son-in-law of mine. And I told him, "Son-in-law, I've

    24 already mourned you." And he said that an officer had

    25 come and attacked those Chetniks, and he gave me his

  61. 1 name. And he said, "I was the one who got you away.

    2 Get down to the Zinc Factory." But I've forgotten the

    3 name. He gave me both the first and last name of that

    4 officer, but I've forgotten.

    5 Q. What happened to the assassins?

    6 A. They stayed there -- well, they left later

    7 on. As soon as they stopped killing, they just

    8 vanished.

    9 Q. Now, you mentioned the name of an individual

    10 who may be related to you by marriage, Hazim Lonjinac.

    11 And that's the man who you have identified as --

    12 A. Yes, my niece -- he's my son-in-law. My

    13 niece is married to him.

    14 Q. Do you know what happened to Hazim Lonjinac?

    15 A. Don't I? My daughter-in-law told me, the

    16 wife of my son who was killed. My two daughters-in-law

    17 and my wife went towards Kladanj that night. And my

    18 daughter-in-law told me that she had got off the bus at

    19 some point, and several men were standing in a group

    20 next to a stone boundary. And when the headlights went

    21 on, then she recognised Hazim in that group.

    22 Q. Do you know the location where Hazim was

    23 standing in that group?

    24 A. I didn't see it myself, but from what my

    25 daughter-in-law told me, next to the asphalt, up the

  62. 1 slope, next to the boundary, next to the bank.

    2 Q. Was there a name for that location?

    3 A. Luke. Some people call it Luke. I've heard

    4 people call it Luke.

    5 Q. Now, let me return to the time when you came

    6 down from the hill and after you saw Hazim. Did you

    7 find your wife and your other family members in and

    8 around the Zinc Factory?

    9 A. No. And I never saw them again, until I

    10 arrived in Kladanj. And they had left that night.

    11 Q. Mr. Ademovic, I'd like you to describe, if

    12 you would, to the Judges the night between the 12th and

    13 the morning of the 13th. Can you describe the scene as

    14 you saw it?

    15 A. In the Zinc Factory compound -- nobody spent

    16 the night there, but across the asphalt, in the

    17 transport compound. And I was in the middle. All the

    18 people were around me. There was moonlight, and the

    19 visibility was better than now. And from all sides

    20 Chetniks were coming, carrying torches with them,

    21 flashlights. And people lying down were tired. They

    22 would pull the people up by the hair and look at their

    23 face. If they would like the face, they would take him

    24 away. If they didn't recognise him, they would leave

    25 him behind. But they mostly took them away. And

  63. 1 people were screaming, people were distressed. It was

    2 awful.

    3 Q. Now, when you say, "The Chetniks were

    4 coming," can you be more precise? Who were the

    5 Chetniks? How were they dressed?

    6 A. Chetniks. That was no army. Those are

    7 criminals. They are called the Bosnian Serb army, but

    8 that's a crime. They are beasts. They are not

    9 humans. A man, a human being, has a soul, and those

    10 people didn't have anything. Heavy crimes. What

    11 army?

    12 Q. How were those individuals who came in in the

    13 night with those flashlights, how were they dressed?

    14 Do you remember?

    15 A. All military. I could have seen two or three

    16 in civilian clothes.

    17 Q. Mr. Ademovic, let me now turn to the morning

    18 of the 13th of July and focus your attention on the

    19 early morning hours. What did you do first thing in

    20 the morning of the 13th of July?

    21 A. I didn't sleep, nor did anybody else. The

    22 dawn broke and our heads hurt to a bursting point.

    23 Down there, there was the River Krizevica, and I

    24 started down to wash myself. There was no Chetniks

    25 around. And above me was a woman screaming like crazy,

  64. 1 "What's happened?" They took away two of her

    2 daughters that night. I started towards the Krizevica,

    3 the stream. I washed my face, came back. I saw a man

    4 on his knees moving. This is cut [indicating], both

    5 his hands, around his ankles, also both feet, his nose

    6 cut off, his ears cut off, his eyes gouged out. He is

    7 moving on his knees and only moaning "Oh." He was

    8 hanging like that. I didn't come near him.

    9 Another one was hanging. I'm sorry. I

    10 didn't come near him.

    11 Q. You saw two individuals, one of whom was

    12 mutilated and a second man who was hanging. Did I

    13 understand your testimony correctly?

    14 A. Yes, that's right. You understood me.

    15 Q. What did you do after you saw those two

    16 sights?

    17 A. I saw buses and I headed there straight

    18 away. I reached the rope, and they had separated --

    19 many of us continued separating, so I reached the

    20 rope. It was tight there, but I bent down and passed

    21 under the rope, and nobody said anything. So I reached

    22 the bus, and its driver was an acquaintance of mine

    23 before the war, a fellow driver. So I sat next to him

    24 and headed for Kladanj.

    25 Q. Let me interrupt you there for just a

  65. 1 second. I omitted to show you three exhibits.

    2 MR. HARMON: And I'd like the usher to put

    3 these on the ELMO, Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/10, 5/13 and

    4 5/11.

    5 Q. These relate to the killings that you

    6 described earlier.

    7 MR. HARMON: Which exhibit is that, please?

    8 THE USHER: 5/10.

    9 MR. HARMON:

    10 Q. Do you recognise Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/10?

    11 A. I do. Where shall I show it? Here, this is

    12 Aljo's house [indicates]. This is also Aljo's house.

    13 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, let him use the

    14 ELMO.

    15 Q. Would you please point to Aljo's house, and

    16 then I'll describe it to the Judges.

    17 A. This is Aljo's house [indicates].

    18 MR. HARMON: For the record, the witness has

    19 put the pointer on the house that is directly in the

    20 middle of the exhibit.

    21 Q. Would you go to Exhibit 5/10, please. I'm

    22 sorry, 5/13. Do you recognise that photograph?

    23 A. This is the stable. This is the shed where I

    24 was, from where I watched. Down here [indicates], down

    25 there, there should have been the Zinc Factory, but

  66. 1 it's not here. Aljo's house is over there. That's

    2 where it should be. Between the Zinc Factory and the

    3 house, there was to be some wheat or some corn, and

    4 that's where the slaughter took place.

    5 MR. HARMON: Just for the record, the witness

    6 indicated with his pointer --

    7 Q. -- and would you point again where you were

    8 hidden when observed these events took, please?

    9 Just put the pointer on the ELMO where you were hidden?

    10 A. Here [indicates].

    11 MR. HARMON: The witness has put his pointer

    12 on the left-hand side of this structure. There appears

    13 to be some perpendicular wooden slats at the left side

    14 of that building, and that's where he said he was.

    15 Q. Is that also the location where Mr. Karic

    16 was?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 MR. HARMON: Now, Mr. Usher, could you place

    19 Prosecutor's 5/11 on the ELMO.

    20 Q. Do you recognise anything in that particular

    21 photograph?

    22 A. Here's the fence through which the Chetniks

    23 were taking away the Bosniaks, through this wire fence

    24 [indicates]. And this is Aljo's house. And that's

    25 where they took them through, and there should be the

  67. 1 stable, but it's not here. I can't see it.

    2 MR. HARMON: Now let me, for the record --

    3 the witness, when he was talking about the fence, he

    4 was pointing to a fence that is on the -- more to the

    5 right side than to the left side. It appears to have a

    6 hole in it. And when he pointed and referred to Aljo's

    7 house, he was referring to the house, the roof of which

    8 is on the left-hand side. It's the tallest structure

    9 in the photograph.

    10 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Ademovic. You can

    11 turn around and we can continue with your testimony.

    12 A. Thank you.

    13 Q. Before we get, Mr. Ademovic, to your actually

    14 leaving the enclave on a bus, let me ask you, did

    15 anybody, prior to your getting on a bus, come to you

    16 and give you a choice, as to whether you could stay in

    17 Srebrenica and Potocari, or whether you could go to any

    18 particular location you wanted?

    19 A. No way. All them, they were shouting at us,

    20 cursing us, cursing Aljo, saying, "Why didn't you go

    21 with Fikret? Perhaps you would have survived." Here,

    22 nobody -- no, we were all leaving, getting away from

    23 knives.

    24 Q. Now, let me ask you, please, tell me where

    25 you went. You said you got on a bus. Tell the Judges

  68. 1 what happened when you got on the bus and who you

    2 recognised.

    3 A. I only recognised the fellow driver, that

    4 one, and all those people there, I wasn't really

    5 looking. Perhaps I knew somebody, but I can't

    6 remember. I only remember the driver, Raco

    7 Madzarevic.

    8 Q. And he was a colleague of yours, or a former

    9 colleague; is that correct?

    10 A. It is.

    11 Q. He was a Serb.

    12 A. He was.

    13 Q. Tell me what happened.

    14 A. Where?

    15 Q. Once you got on the bus.

    16 A. I got onto the bus, I sat somewhere in the

    17 middle of the bus, and when the bus was full, he set

    18 off. When we passed by Bratunac, he called me to sit

    19 next to him and I sat next to him. He offered me a

    20 cigarette and said, "Well, how about you? Are your

    21 sons alive?" I said, "I don't know." "Where did you

    22 go?" And I said, "Through the woods." And he said

    23 "Not good. There was some bad fighting with our army

    24 and there was also some fighting between your troops.

    25 Lots of people died. I hope somebody is still alive.

  69. 1 We were to take you tonight," Wednesday night, that is,

    2 "and I started and I was brought back from the petrol

    3 station at Zivinice, and I saw our troops moving to

    4 meet your troops to an ambush, so that I didn't drive

    5 last night, nobody drove last night."

    6 When we got to Sandici, Pantic called

    7 Milici -- militia men stopped us. Before the war, he

    8 was a policeman. And that man was lying there on the

    9 asphalt next to him, and there were about 20 through

    10 Sandici, 20 men in civilian clothes with their hands

    11 like that. Pantic shook hands with me and said, "Hi.

    12 I looked for you yesterday in Potocari. I was bringing

    13 you some Slivovitz, some brandy, but I couldn't find

    14 you. And now I don't have it with me. Go and sit in

    15 the back. Don't sit here. Raco, get those two lads,

    16 they're Muslims. They arrived through the woods. They

    17 were good to us." And we went on.

    18 Q. Let me ask you some questions to clarify your

    19 testimony. Who was Pantic? Was he a Serb?

    20 A. A Serb.

    21 Q. Did you know him -- you knew him from before

    22 the war; is that correct?

    23 A. Yes, we knew each other well before the war.

    24 Q. And you said that you saw 20 people. How

    25 were their hands? Could you show the Judges --

  70. 1 A. Around 20, around 20.

    2 Q. Could you tell the Judges how they were

    3 positioned and what position their hands were in?

    4 A. They were all in civilian clothes, and they

    5 their hands like this [indicates]. Nobody was driving

    6 them down. They were coming down the hill by

    7 themselves, down to where Pantic is.

    8 MR. HARMON: And when the witness said "like

    9 this," he put both his hands together behind the back

    10 of his head, so the record is perfectly clear.

    11 Q. Now, did Pantic put some people on the bus?

    12 A. Two young boys, some 12 or 13 years old.

    13 Q. Do you know why he put those young lads on

    14 the bus?

    15 A. I know nothing. I don't know the reason.

    16 Q. Did the bus then drive away from Sandici?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. In which direction did it drive?

    19 A. Towards Konjevic Polje, Milici, Nova Kasaba,

    20 Vlasenica.

    21 Q. Did you see anything unusual on the way to

    22 Konjevic Polje?

    23 A. I did. Before Kaldrmica, to our right, there

    24 were about two or three buses standing, and to the

    25 left, there were the Chetnik troops, so that Raco

  71. 1 couldn't get through, and he stopped. And he turned

    2 his hand, and with his coat, he covered my head behind

    3 his back. And two soldiers approached Raco. Raco

    4 opened the door, "We want to see if there is anything

    5 for us," and he said, "There's nothing for you," and

    6 they turned back, that is, they didn't get onto the

    7 bus.

    8 Q. What happened then?

    9 A. And I watched from the buses how they were

    10 taking off men, and there were some women. And the

    11 buses started, and Raco started towards the playground,

    12 near Nova Kasaba. Around 1.000 Muslim Bosniaks were

    13 walking in a column, with their hands like this

    14 [indicates]. And Chetnici escorting them with rifles.

    15 Raco was driving very slowly and said, "Bego, do you

    16 recognise anyone?" And I said, "I don't, not one,"

    17 because I saw them from their back.

    18 So he stopped in Nova Kasaba, he honked, and

    19 a shop owner came out and Raco asked for a litre of

    20 brandy. And the grocer brought it to him, and he paid

    21 him, and he just dropped it in front of him and went on

    22 driving. And when we reached Luke --

    23 Q. Let me interrupt you right there because I

    24 need to clarify a couple points in your testimony.

    25 You said you saw about 1.000 men. Could you

  72. 1 tell if these men were Muslim men or if they were

    2 Bosnian Serbs?

    3 A. Muslims, and Bosnian Serbs were driving

    4 them.

    5 Q. And in which direction were they going? I'm

    6 afraid I missed that part of your testimony. Were they

    7 going in a particular direction, to a particular

    8 location?

    9 A. Towards Kasaba, before the playground.

    10 That's what I saw. Towards Kasaba.

    11 Q. When you say "playground," what kind of a

    12 playground is it?

    13 A. Football, a football stadium.

    14 MR. HARMON: Again, for the record, when this

    15 witness indicated that the men had their hands, again,

    16 in a particular position, he made a gesture for the

    17 Court to see, which was both hands behind the back of

    18 the head.

    19 Q. Now, Mr. Ademovic, where did you stop that

    20 bus journey?

    21 A. At Luke.

    22 Q. What happened there?

    23 A. The troops there surrounded the bus, and Raco

    24 got out that brandy from the glove compartment and two

    25 big tins and said, "Bego, give it to that woman, to put

  73. 1 it in her bag, and when you cross over there, have a

    2 drink. Had I known that I'd come across you, I would

    3 have brought some marks for you. I've got lots of

    4 Serbian money, but you can't use it over there." And I

    5 said, "Well, shall I cross alive?" And he said, "You

    6 will." And he opened the door, took me by my left

    7 shoulder and said -- he called the radio and said,

    8 "Vojvoda, call them on the radio and tell not to leave

    9 this one alone, he is our fellow driver," and the other

    10 one replied, "Nobody will touch Bego." And that's how

    11 I continued my journey.

    12 Q. At some point in time, did you help a woman,

    13 as well?

    14 A. When I was leaving that bus, those troops,

    15 they shouted at me to come back asking, "Would I mind

    16 taking along a woman who had suffered a stroke?" and I

    17 said "Sure." So I did.

    18 Q. Mr. Ademovic, while you were at Luke, did you

    19 see anything happen to a young girl?

    20 A. I did. I saw a Chetnik dragging her back.

    21 She had torn all her clothes. She could have been 18,

    22 19, and she was screaming, "Uncle Bego, help me. Don't

    23 let them do it." But I kept silent, I wasn't saying

    24 anything, and he dragged her behind.

    25 Q. Did you know that young girl?

  74. 1 A. I didn't. She knew me. I didn't know her.

    2 Q. Now, as you made your way toward the free

    3 territory, did you see any Bosnian Serb soldiers you

    4 knew?

    5 A. Two were sitting to the right of the road,

    6 and he said, "Bego, take his wife, she has suffered a

    7 stroke," and I've shared lots of meals with them in

    8 their house, so all right. So they said, "Bego, come

    9 sit down. Have some water. You'll faint." So I sat

    10 down, he gave me a box of cigarettes, and I had a brief

    11 rest, and that's how I went on my journey.

    12 Q. Do you know the name or nickname of that

    13 particular soldier?

    14 A. I don't know his name. He used to work for

    15 the bauxite. That's what they called him.

    16 Q. Sorry. I didn't hear what they called him.

    17 What did they call him?

    18 A. Lega. That was his nickname or perhaps his

    19 last name. I don't know.

    20 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Ademovic. I've

    21 concluded my examination. My colleagues will ask you

    22 some questions.

    23 A. Thank you.

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

    25 Mr. Petrusic, how long will you need for your

  75. 1 cross-examination, more or less?

    2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

    3 it will be Mr. Visnjic who will cross-examine the

    4 witness.

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

    6 So I'm asking the same question of Mr. Visnjic. How

    7 long will you take? I'm asking because of the break.

    8 Should we make the break now or not?

    9 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

    10 I was about to suggest a break because we have to

    11 resolve some technical matters with the technical

    12 booth, so as to get ready for it, and I should like to

    13 suggest a break.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

    15 We shall now make a 15-minute break, then.

    16 --- Recess taken at 1.25 p.m.

    17 --- On resuming at 1.47 p.m.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

    19 Mr. Ademovic, we are now going to continue with your

    20 evidence. Let me just remind you that you have to

    21 speak slowly because we have interpreters here who are

    22 interpreting what you say, and you have to speak

    23 slowly. I hope Mr. Visnjic will do the same. And

    24 we'll also show you how to do it, how to speak slowly.

    25 Mr. Visnjic, you have the floor.

  76. 1 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    2 Mr. President.

    3 Cross-examined by Mr. Visnjic:

    4 Q. Mr. Ademovic, I know it is hard for you to be

    5 reminded of these events, but unfortunately we have to

    6 ask you a few details, we have to ask you to explain

    7 the events that took place in July 1995 in somewhat

    8 greater detail.

    9 Mr. Ademovic, could you please explain to the

    10 Chamber whether you have given any statement about

    11 these events on any previous occasion?

    12 A. Yes, I have.

    13 Q. How many?

    14 A. I don't know how many statements I gave to

    15 the Tribunal, but I remember giving a statement to the

    16 authorities in Tuzla on one occasion.

    17 Q. Mr. Ademovic, the usher will now show you

    18 Exhibit 6. Exhibit 6 is your statement of the 18th of

    19 August, 1995, the statement that you gave to the State

    20 Security Service in Tuzla.

    21 A. Yes. Yes, I can tell you all about it. I

    22 don't have to read it. I'll tell you how it happened.

    23 I was called in Tuzla, they told me to come to an

    24 office, which was a small office, a small room. There

    25 were four of us, three men and one woman. The

  77. 1 investigators were not serious at all. They were not

    2 serious. So they were flirting with the lady, they

    3 were not listening to what I was saying. And at the

    4 moment I had to put my signature on the statement, he

    5 didn't bother to read it -- I'm sorry. He did read

    6 it. But I told him that the statement had nothing to

    7 do with what I had just told him, and he told me that I

    8 should sign it now, that they were very busy, that he

    9 would later on come to see me at home or call me to his

    10 office, and that we would correct the statement later

    11 on.

    12 He never came to see me, nor did he ever call

    13 me. But I was called by the Tribunal in Tuzla, so I

    14 told them that the statement that I had previously

    15 given was not correct, the statement that I gave to our

    16 SUP, Ministry of the Interior. But they told me that

    17 this did not matter, that what mattered was what I was

    18 going to tell them, and this is how we proceeded.

    19 So the original statement is not correct, and

    20 I warned them about that.

    21 Q. Mr. Ademovic, were you ever called again?

    22 A. You mean by our people, by the SUP people,

    23 the people from Tuzla?

    24 Q. Yes.

    25 A. No, they didn't.

  78. 1 Q. Did you give one more statement to the

    2 Tribunal later on?

    3 A. I gave several statements to the Tribunal. I

    4 don't know how many.

    5 Q. While you were giving your statement to the

    6 Tribunal, was anybody from the Bosniak police present

    7 on that occasion?

    8 A. I gave the statement in the SUP, in Tuzla.

    9 Q. While you were giving the statement to the

    10 Tribunal, was anybody present, anybody from the Tuzla

    11 Ministry of the Interior, present in the office?

    12 A. I don't know. I mean, they were wearing

    13 uniforms. They were people from the SUP, people from

    14 the Ministry of the Interior.

    15 Q. Mr. Ademovic, do you then deny everything

    16 that was said in the statement of the 18th of August,

    17 1995?

    18 A. I do not deny everything. There have been

    19 errors, that is true.

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

    21 Mr. Visnjic, sorry to interrupt, but I believe the

    22 witness has already answered that question. If you ask

    23 specific questions, you will get specific answers. I

    24 believe that the witness has already explained these

    25 things.

  79. 1 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    2 Mr. President. I was already going to ask a very

    3 specific question in relation to that.

    4 Q. Mr. Ademovic, let me read you a passage from

    5 your statement of the 18th of August, I mean, the

    6 statement you said was a bit problematic, and I should

    7 like to hear an explanation from you. I should like

    8 you to explain the differences from that statement and

    9 what you're saying now.

    10 A. I don't know. I don't remember what

    11 happened.

    12 Q. Will you please wait for my question.

    13 A. Yes.

    14 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] For the

    15 interpreters, the Serbian version of the text is on

    16 page 2.

    17 Q. "In the meantime, I ended up in the Express

    18 Transport compound, from where I saw a Chetnik, blond,

    19 short, medium build, close to the asphalt road. He

    20 snatched a three-or four-month old child from its

    21 mother's arms and smashed it on the cement. He then

    22 took the woman by the hair, put her head across his

    23 knee and slit her throat. The two men from the crowd

    24 wrapped the corpses in a blanket and took them away

    25 along the Bratunac road."

  80. 1 A. No, no, I don't know what he wrote down.

    2 This is what I heard later on. I heard that the woman

    3 had been Naser's close relative, that she was killed

    4 together with her child. But I did not say that.

    5 Q. Yes, but the event, the way you related it

    6 today, is not the same one that is described in the

    7 statement?

    8 A. I don't know how it happened. I only heard

    9 people describe the event later on, how this Naser's

    10 close relative was killed, together with her child.

    11 Q. You told us about an event -- you told us

    12 about this event today, and you told us that a baby was

    13 killed by a soldier in the Zinc Company?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. However, this is not the same event.

    16 A. Well, these are two different things.

    17 Q. What do you mean, "two different things"?

    18 A. Well, I can only say that the child -- I can

    19 only claim that the child was killed.

    20 Q. Did you ever mention this event, the way you

    21 described it today, to the investigative authorities of

    22 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    23 A. I may have told them that I had heard about

    24 the event.

    25 Q. But I'm asking you about this particular one

  81. 1 that took place near the Zinc Company.

    2 A. Yes. I believe that I told them so.

    3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please

    4 pause between question and answer.

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry

    6 to interrupt you, Mr. Visnjic, but Witness, please, try

    7 to make a pause before you start answering the

    8 questions. This will be much easier for the

    9 interpreters.

    10 You speak the same language, the counsel and

    11 you, and I know that it is very easy for the two of you

    12 to communicate speedily, but you have to bear in mind

    13 that there are interpreters between you. If you can

    14 please bear this fact in mind, the Chamber will be

    15 grateful. I could perhaps motion to you, I can tell

    16 you either to slow down, like this [indicates], or to

    17 make a pause.

    18 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] I should like to

    19 remind the interpreters to say "Question" and "Answer"

    20 because sometimes it is very difficult to distinguish

    21 between the two.

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.

    23 Mr. Visnjic, you may continue.

    24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    25 Mr. President.

  82. 1 Q. Mr. Ademovic, let me read you one more

    2 passage from your statement of the 18th of August,

    3 1995. It is the last passage on the first page of the

    4 Serbo-Croatian text.

    5 "When they left at around 1300, Chetniks

    6 went into the crowd and immediately began taking away

    7 young women. I was with Ibran Mehmic [phoen] and

    8 Dzemal Karic from Kasaba in the Zinkada compound, when

    9 I saw Chetniks taking away a group of about ten young

    10 women towards the river, which was across from the

    11 Zinkada. I do not know any of the young women, but I

    12 know that the group of Chetniks who took away the women

    13 was commanded by Zoran Mirosavljevic, son of Dimitri,

    14 from Bratunac."

    15 A. I already told you that there were a lot of

    16 people there, and I told you that the people who took

    17 my statement didn't actually listen to what I was

    18 stating. They were flirting with this young woman. I

    19 don't know what they wrote down. This is not what I

    20 said, this is not what I saw, and this is not what I

    21 told them.

    22 Q. Mr. Ademovic, you described an event today in

    23 which a Serb soldier took away a Muslim girl from her

    24 parents.

    25 A. Yes. That took place in the Zinc Factory.

  83. 1 There were two soldiers.

    2 Q. Yes. That is the event I have in mind.

    3 Could you please tell us whether the event that you

    4 have described today and the event as it is described

    5 in the statement, if such an event should have

    6 happened, are one and the same event?

    7 A. I was just about to explain this to you.

    8 This is something different. This is not what I said.

    9 Q. Mr. Ademovic, I should like to go back to the

    10 12th of July, 1995 and your whereabouts on that day. I

    11 think that the record shows that while you were near

    12 Aljo's house, that you reached that particular location

    13 at around 10.00, but I don't think it is correct.

    14 A. No, this is not correct. I got there on

    15 Tuesday, at 11.00 p.m. I arrived in Potocari, in the

    16 Zinc Factory, on that evening.

    17 Q. Yes. Very well. I should like to discuss

    18 the incident of the killing of a number of Muslims by

    19 Serb soldiers in the vicinity of Aljo's house. Do you

    20 know which event I have in mind?

    21 A. Yes, I do.

    22 Q. When exactly did you reach the position from

    23 which you could observe the event?

    24 A. Well, I didn't have a watch, but it could

    25 have been sometime after 3.00, 3.00 p.m. Yes, it was

  84. 1 in the afternoon hours.

    2 Q. Could you give us an idea as to how long this

    3 event lasted?

    4 A. I don't know whether you followed my

    5 testimony. It was a bit -- it was between two and

    6 three hours. But I didn't have a watch, so I couldn't

    7 tell you more precisely.

    8 Q. I should now like to discuss a few details of

    9 that event, if you can remember them.

    10 You spoke about a kind of ramp. I more or

    11 less have an idea as to what you had in mind, but could

    12 you explain to the Judges what it was?

    13 A. There were two -- there was a kind of

    14 scaffold that had been prepared for the killing, and

    15 there was a beam across which people were put, with

    16 their hands behind their backs. The Chetniks were

    17 holding their hands behind their backs. There was a

    18 third Chetnik holding them by their head, and there was

    19 a fourth one who was chopping their heads off and

    20 throwing them on a pile.

    21 Q. You said they used a kind of sword.

    22 A. Well, some people call it a sword, some

    23 people call it a knife. You probably know exactly what

    24 I'm talking about. Some people even call it a

    25 machete. We have hundreds of names for one particular

  85. 1 thing in the Bosnian language.

    2 Q. Yes, but I believe that there is a difference

    3 between a knife and a sword and a saber. Could you

    4 please explain the difference to the Judges?

    5 A. Well, I don't know what more you want. There

    6 is this thing -- I must say that I didn't come close to

    7 those men. I had not had any sleep for five days

    8 because of the shelling, because of the commotion and

    9 everything, but I could see a huge blade like this

    10 [indicates] that they used for chopping off people's

    11 heads. I don't know exactly how you would call it. We

    12 call it, I don't know, a saber, a sword, a butcher's

    13 knife.

    14 Q. I know it's a bit uncomfortable for you to

    15 remember these details, but could you tell us how it

    16 happened, this chopping off of heads?

    17 A. Yes, the same way -- they chopped off

    18 people's heads the way you chop off heads of animals.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

    20 Mr. Visnjic, what is the objective of your questions?

    21 I mean, how can we be assisted by these details?

    22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

    23 the witness has mentioned the approximate time of the

    24 event, and he also gave us an approximate number of

    25 people that were killed in this way.

  86. 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

    2 Mr. Visnjic, but I think that we should be able to

    3 understand. We all realise that it is very difficult

    4 for a witness to be very specific and precise after

    5 five years, and we cannot expect the witness to tell

    6 the exact time of the day, the exact number of the

    7 victims. I don't think that these particular details

    8 are relevant for the present case.

    9 I do not wish to impose any method on you --

    10 you're doing your job and I have a profound respect for

    11 that -- but we simply cannot ask this witness to

    12 remember things that took place five years ago, and he

    13 just told you that he hadn't had any sleep for five

    14 days. We have to be able to imagine the circumstances

    15 of the event, which was very emotional, and we have to

    16 bear in mind that there are certain limitations on

    17 human perception.

    18 I'm sorry, but I have to tell you that it is

    19 almost a torture -- I'm a bit reluctant to use this

    20 word -- for the witness, to try to remind him of all

    21 these events. Well, I don't want to say that you've

    22 been torturing this witness, but please bear in mind

    23 the fact that we have to proceed in a speedy fashion

    24 and we have to restrict ourselves to the details which

    25 are really important and relevant. Please try to be

  87. 1 more precise and direct in your questions.

    2 And I'm sorry once again for having

    3 interrupted you, Mr. Visnjic.

    4 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    5 Mr. President.

    6 Q. Mr. Ademovic, I'm now going to read a portion

    7 from your statement given on the 23rd of May, 1996, and

    8 I should like you to confirm this passage.

    9 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] It is Exhibit

    10 7, page 3, last paragraph of the Serbo-Croat version.

    11 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This

    12 statement will be marked as Exhibit D7.

    13 A. Why don't you read it to me? I can't read

    14 very well.

    15 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

    16 Q. "In between the executions, the group of

    17 soldiers was drinking and eating."

    18 A. Yes, they were.

    19 Q. "It looked like it was for them a kind of

    20 entertainment --"

    21 A. Yes, it was like a wedding. They would drink

    22 and play amongst themselves in between two killings.

    23 Q. "The same two soldiers went to fetch another

    24 group of men, and the same event happened again."

    25 A. Yes, they brought another group of men.

  88. 1 Q. Mr. Ademovic, at what intervals would those

    2 two same soldiers go back to the Zinc Factory to bring

    3 new people? And how many men would they bring along

    4 with them?

    5 A. Well, not less than four, not more than six

    6 or seven. Somewhere between four and seven.

    7 Q. How long did it take them to go and bring

    8 that group? Well, the Judge has just told you --

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me,

    10 Witness. Could we make something into a rule? Before

    11 you begin to answer, take one minute to think. Can you

    12 understand what I'm saying? So Mr. Visnjic asks you a

    13 question --

    14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do

    15 understand.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just

    17 imagine that you have to take one minute to think about

    18 your answer, and then answer. Okay? All right? Very

    19 well.

    20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't have a

    21 watch. I couldn't really time it. I couldn't know.

    22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

    23 Q. One more question, Mr. Ademovic, about that

    24 incident. You said that bodies were put in some

    25 camouflage bags, or something like that, if I

  89. 1 understood you well.

    2 A. Yes. Yes.

    3 Q. What kind of sacks were they?

    4 A. Well, they are sky blue. They are more or

    5 less like this chair here.

    6 Q. Why camouflage? I don't understand. Was it

    7 something with the interpretation?

    8 A. Well, that's the colour, that's what I call

    9 it.

    10 Q. Who is Aljo Hasanovic, Mr. Ademovic?

    11 A. Aljo Hasanovic, the owner of the house. They

    12 were slaughtering next to his house. Aljo.

    13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I have no

    14 further questions, Mr. President.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon,

    16 do you have any additional questions?

    17 MR. HARMON: No, Mr. President, I have no

    18 further questions.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Judge

    20 Riad.

    21 Questioned by the Court:

    22 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Bego Ademovic, good

    23 afternoon. Can you hear me?

    24 A. Good afternoon. I can hear you very well.

    25 JUDGE RIAD: I just want to follow with you

  90. 1 some of this very painful experience you had. I will

    2 not prolong it, as much as I can.

    3 First you said, when I think the Prosecutor

    4 asked you about the Bosnian Serb soldiers, you said

    5 that that was no army. When you said that, I

    6 understood, or perhaps it was meant, that these were

    7 monsters and not soldiers. But did you also mean that

    8 they were not organised completely, they were just wild

    9 people running around, or was it disciplined as an

    10 army, although they were acting like monsters? Did you

    11 understand my question?

    12 A. I understand your question. A proper army

    13 wages a war against an army and does not just kill,

    14 does not mutilate, does not rape the young girls, does

    15 not cut arms, does not gouge out eyes, does not behead

    16 people. So that to me, they're wild men. No army,

    17 they are.

    18 JUDGE RIAD: Yes. Please bear with me. It

    19 so happened in previous wars, perhaps you were not

    20 born, there was the Second World War, where some armies

    21 exterminated people and they were still called armies.

    22 So do you consider that this was just bands, wild

    23 bands, or was it in the form of an army? I'm speaking

    24 from the formation side, not their morality. I

    25 understand your revolt, but we're not discussing their

  91. 1 morality. So the discipline, the organisation, the

    2 weapons, and what constitutes an army officially.

    3 A. The Chetnik leadership, the top, from

    4 Milosevic in Belgrade, organised something like a hoard

    5 of miscreants to exterminate the Muslims in Bosnia and

    6 Herzegovina, to create Greater Serbia. When such a

    7 case happened, I wasn't born then, but the same thing

    8 was in 1941. In my village, 73 people burnt to death

    9 in their houses, and 61 survived, and the tradition

    10 goes on. That's what my parents told me. I don't

    11 know. They killed my uncle and brothers and sisters.

    12 And what do I know? Lots of my relatives.

    13 JUDGE RIAD: Well, that brings me to another

    14 question, because you also mentioned that the soldiers,

    15 when they stopped you and cursed you and your group,

    16 they told you, "This is a Serb country." Did they tell

    17 you what you were supposed to do, where you were

    18 supposed to go?

    19 A. The soldier did not stop me. That was in

    20 Potocari. When they stopped us, they did not insult

    21 anybody, they did not offend anybody on the road. And

    22 this happened in Potocari, on Wednesday, after 10.00.

    23 They were cursing our balija mothers, "You'll all be

    24 butchered. You will be burned in acid. This is our

    25 Serb fatherland. This is Greater Serbia."

  92. 1 JUDGE RIAD: Now, when you were on your way

    2 to Konjevic Polje, I remember you said two soldiers

    3 asked the driver, Raco, when he stopped, they asked

    4 him, "Is there anything for us," if you remember. What

    5 did they mean by "Is there anything for us?"

    6 A. Well, he meant if they liked somebody, they

    7 would get them off, so to kill them, to rape.

    8 JUDGE RIAD: In fact, you also mentioned that

    9 sometimes, and you gave two different meanings, you

    10 said, "They would stop people and choose the people

    11 they liked to kill." What is the meaning of "choose

    12 the people they liked"? I remember your words. You

    13 said, "Sometimes the people they liked and sometimes

    14 the people they suspected." Does that apply to women

    15 or to men?

    16 A. Well, women, if they liked them, to rape

    17 them, and men, to finish them off, unless somebody was

    18 a friend of theirs.

    19 JUDGE RIAD: I found your words. You said,

    20 "They would pick the people they recognised." Were

    21 they after certain people, or they just took anyone?

    22 A. That happened too, to look for individuals,

    23 for specific individuals, but that only happened now

    24 and then. They were usually taking everybody. In

    25 Potocari, there lived Omer. He was born like this

  93. 1 [indicates], he was an invalid; he was 75 years old,

    2 and they killed him too.

    3 JUDGE RIAD: If you remember, you mentioned

    4 that you saw something like 1.000 Muslims, driven by

    5 Serbs, with their hands behind their heads. I think

    6 that was when you were in the bus. Did you know after

    7 that what happened to these men?

    8 A. Killed in the playground, before Kasaba, all

    9 of them.

    10 JUDGE RIAD: And how did you know that?

    11 A. People who watched it said, hiding in the

    12 thicket and watching from the thicket. Brought to the

    13 playground, put a table there, a PAM on the table,

    14 around the table, and they would just go around, make a

    15 round, and finish them all off.

    16 JUDGE RIAD: Also by slaughtering them with

    17 knives or shooting, or you don't know? You don't know

    18 the way.

    19 A. I heard only about shooting them dead, not

    20 about slaughtering them dead.

    21 JUDGE RIAD: Just one last question. Perhaps

    22 I don't want to remind you. You said your mother died

    23 in the forest, in the woods. How did she die?

    24 A. My mother -- my mother was 81 and was over

    25 100 kilogrammes. We were going through the woods -- we

  94. 1 were going through the forest and she remained there,

    2 she died there.

    3 JUDGE RIAD: I would like to thank you and to

    4 apologise for having aroused these memories.

    5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness

    7 Ademovic, I have only one question for you. Are you

    8 ready?

    9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

    10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

    11 very much.

    12 Witness Ademovic, you were a driver by

    13 profession, and it took you to large cities, especially

    14 before the war, on various occasions.

    15 A. Yes.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] For

    17 instance, you must have been to Sarajevo very many

    18 times.

    19 A. Yes.

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In

    21 Sarajevo, was there a military barracks there?

    22 A. Yes, but I never went into the barracks.

    23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Was there a

    24 police station there, for instance?

    25 A. In Sarajevo, you mean? Yes. Yes, there

  95. 1 was.

    2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In the

    3 streets of Sarajevo, for instance, or perhaps some

    4 other city, could you distinguish between a soldier and

    5 a policeman?

    6 A. You mean before the war?

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Before the

    8 war, yes.

    9 A. Yes. Yes. They had different uniforms.

    10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] They had

    11 different uniforms.

    12 A. Yes.

    13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] On the

    14 10th, the 11th, the 12th, the 13th of July, did you see

    15 the difference between the police and the military

    16 uniforms?

    17 A. I didn't. Those camouflage uniforms are all

    18 alike, and I know nothing about them. I knew what

    19 Tito's uniform was, but that was a different type of

    20 police and a different kind of army. Now I don't

    21 understand anything.

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So this was

    23 your answer. Thank you very much. We should like to

    24 thank you for coming to give your evidence. It is

    25 always difficult to bring back those memories, to

  96. 1 remember those horrible things that you lived through,

    2 but we hope that having come here, it will help you to

    3 find peace for yourself and enough peace to live in

    4 peace with other people, whether with people of your

    5 religion, your race, or perhaps you will make some

    6 other choice.

    7 But perhaps you were not asked something that

    8 you should like to say, that you had no other

    9 opportunity to say. Is there something that you should

    10 like to say now?

    11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    12 Mr. President. I hope if Alija goes from power, his

    13 party, and if Milosevic goes, then we shall live

    14 together as we did before. If they stay on, there will

    15 be no life for us.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

    17 Thank you very much, and we wish you a happy return

    18 home.

    19 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Once again,

    20 Your Honour, I want to see if Exhibits D6 and D7 are

    21 admitted.

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

    23 Mr. Visnjic, do you want to tender these documents?

    24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Indeed,

    25 Mr. President, yes. D6 and D7.

  97. 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Any

    2 objections? Mr. Harmon, do you object?

    3 MR. HARMON: I have no objection to D6, and

    4 if you just give me one minute to look at D7, no

    5 objection to D7 either. Thank you.

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As you

    7 know, Mr. Visnjic, the Prosecutor needs to look into

    8 it, to see if there is any obligation of

    9 confidentiality, if there is anything that requires

    10 different measures.

    11 [The witness withdrew]

    12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

    13 So D6 and D7 are admitted, and Mr. Dubuisson will take

    14 care of them.

    15 Very well. It is now twenty-five past two.

    16 I don't think that it is really possible to call in

    17 another witness, is it, Mr. Harmon?

    18 MR. HARMON: It's up to Your Honours,

    19 Mr. President. We're prepared to present another

    20 witness, but I leave it to your discretion.

    21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank

    22 you, Mr. Harmon. I do not really think it will be very

    23 convenient and useful to have a witness who will only

    24 take the solemn declaration and then leave. So we

    25 shall adjourn today, until half past nine tomorrow.

  98. 1 I wish to apologise to the interpreters. I

    2 know the interpreters are well familiar with the

    3 working conditions, better than we do. We are really

    4 doing our best to help them, but there is --

    5 spontaneity, I think, is more powerful, and I don't

    6 think that even the President of the Chamber can not

    7 interfere with the witness and the way in which he

    8 speaks. But we shall perhaps have to think of some

    9 technical device to keep us remembering the

    10 interpreters, that they are there.

    11 Very well. I hope that if we understand what

    12 their working conditions are, then perhaps we shall be

    13 able to do something about them and make them better.

    14 Very well. I wish you a pleasant afternoon,

    15 and we shall be back here at half past nine. Thank

    16 you.

    17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

    18 2.38 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

    19 the 30th day of March, 2000, at

    20 9.30 a.m.