1. 1 Thursday, 30 March 2000

    2 [Closed session]

    3 [The witness entered court]

    4 --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.

    5 [The accused entered court]








    13 pages 1635-1678 redacted - closed session













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    16 (redacted)

    17 --- Recess taken at 11.35 a.m.

    18 --- On resuming at 11.53 a.m.

    19 [Open session]

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

    21 morning, Witness H. Will you please stand up?

    22 [The witness stands]

    23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We shall

    24 call you Witness H because of the protective measures

    25 granted to you. You will now take the solemn

  2. 1 declaration, which the usher will show you.

    2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

    3 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

    4 and nothing but the truth.


    6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

    8 You can take your seat now.

    9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Are you

    11 living a happy life, Witness H?

    12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

    13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] With the

    14 inscription "Have a happy life," you are trying to make

    15 it happy.

    16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was a

    17 present from a colleague in Austria, but I can't read

    18 it.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Well,

    20 whatever the case, your friend knew that you needed

    21 that. Very well.

    22 You will now look at this piece of paper and

    23 just tell us yes or no, that is, whether this is your

    24 name or not on this piece of paper. Only yes or no.

    25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

  3. 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

    2 Witness H, thank you very much for coming here to

    3 testify. You will now answer questions which

    4 Mr. McCloskey, the Prosecutor, will ask of you.

    5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

    7 Mr. McCloskey.

    8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

    9 Examined by Mr. McCloskey:

    10 Q. Witness H, can you first tell us how old you

    11 are?

    12 A. I'm 42.

    13 Q. And where did you grow up?

    14 A. I grew up in Srebrenica.

    15 Q. And are you a Muslim by faith?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. And can you tell us where you were living on

    21 July 11th, 1995?

    22 A. In Potocari, near Srebrenica.

    23 Q. And who were you living with?

    24 A. With my wife and two children.

    25 Q. And did you decide that day to go to the UN

  4. 1 compound at some time?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. And can you tell us why?

    4 A. Because I could not go through the forest,

    5 and so I decided that I would be safer with the UN.

    6 Q. What was happening that caused you and others

    7 to go to Potocari and some others to go through the

    8 woods?

    9 A. Some, that is, the troops mostly, went

    10 through the woods, and the civilians, by and large,

    11 went to Potocari, to be under the UNPROFOR protection.

    12 Q. So when you say "the troops went through the

    13 woods," you're referring to the Bosnian Muslim troops;

    14 is that right?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. But can you tell us why the people, why the

    17 Muslims, felt a need to either go through the woods or

    18 go to Potocari? Why were they fleeing?

    19 A. They had to. There was no life for them

    20 there. We would have all been slain had we stayed in

    21 Srebrenica.

    22 Q. And who were you afraid of?

    23 A. We were afraid of the Serb troops.

    24 Q. And about what time did you and your family

    25 get to the area of the UN compound?

  5. 1 A. About 4.00, 4.00 in the afternoon.

    2 Q. And where did you take your family?

    3 A. To the Transport.

    4 Q. Is that the Transport Factory that had all

    5 the old buses in front of it?

    6 A. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

    7 Q. And did you actually go inside the building

    8 of the Transport Company?

    9 A. I did.

    10 Q. And how many other people were inside the

    11 building that afternoon that you went there?

    12 A. You mean both men and women?

    13 Q. Yes, everybody.

    14 A. Many.

    15 Q. And did you spend the night there?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. And how were you and the other people feeling

    18 that night?

    19 A. We all felt bad. We were all afraid.

    20 Q. And the next day, in the morning, what

    21 happened in the morning?

    22 A. In the morning, around 10.00, I think, Serb

    23 troops came in.

    24 Q. Can you describe what those troops were

    25 wearing, what kind of outfits?

  6. 1 A. Multicoloured, military clothes. Yellow and

    2 green, different colours. Yellow and green clothes.

    3 Serb troops. They had round patches on their arms.

    4 Q. Can you describe the round thing you saw on

    5 their arms?

    6 A. Those were round patches; blue, white, red.

    7 Q. And did you know what that meant?

    8 A. I knew it meant Serb military.

    9 Q. Now, when you first saw these Serb military

    10 soldiers, where were they?

    11 A. They were behind the Transport Bus Company,

    12 and I was watching them through the window. They were

    13 in front of the Transport door.

    14 Q. So you were still inside the building,

    15 watching these troops through the window.

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. And about what time was this again?

    18 A. It could have been 10.00 or so, I believe.

    19 Q. And did you ever see any of the soldiers that

    20 you recognised around that time?

    21 A. I saw Goran Rakic.

    22 Q. Do you know his father's name?

    23 A. Momcilo.

    24 Q. And where was he from?

    25 A. Zalazje.

  7. 1 Q. And about how old was Goran Rakic at the time

    2 you saw him?

    3 A. About 22, 23.

    4 Q. And how did you know him?

    5 A. (redacted)

    6 Q. And what was he wearing?

    7 A. Military, multicoloured clothes.

    8 Q. And did he have a weapon?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. And what was he doing?

    11 A. Just standing with other soldiers.

    12 Q. Were the other soldiers that he was standing

    13 with dressed like him and armed like him?

    14 A. They were, yes.

    15 Q. And what else happened that morning? As the

    16 day went on, what else did you see?

    17 A. I saw a van come and take away Ibrahim

    18 Mustafic and a couple of other people.

    19 Q. And when the van arrived, who actually took

    20 Ibran Mustafic and put him in the van? Could you tell?

    21 A. I can't because I was lying down, and I had

    22 almost my eyes shut as those soldiers came through --

    23 went through with their weapons.

    24 Q. And did you decide to do anything when you

    25 saw these soldiers and Goran Rakic, and Ibran Mustafic

  8. 1 taken away?

    2 A. I decided to pretend I was mad and unable to

    3 move about.

    4 Q. Did your family and friends around you assist

    5 in this act or charade?

    6 A. Yes, and those women who were there.

    7 Q. And did any soldiers come in and confront you

    8 at that time?

    9 A. Two soldiers in black clothes came, and they

    10 had bandannas.

    11 Q. And where were you when the two soldiers in

    12 black came?

    13 A. I was lying down in that passage.

    14 Q. And how were you acting?

    15 A. Like a man who was disabled and mad.

    16 Q. And what did the soldiers do when they saw

    17 you?

    18 A. They came close to me and said, "Come on.

    19 Stand up."

    20 Q. And what happened?

    21 A. And the women said, "He cannot stand up; he's

    22 disabled and he's mad, and he can't move."

    23 Q. And so what did they do?

    24 A. Then one came close to me, and I just

    25 slightly opened my eyes, and he took something -- I

  9. 1 can't really say what it was -- something which looked

    2 like scissors and passed it over my nose, and I still

    3 have a scar.

    4 Q. And, for the record, you pointed at the

    5 bridge of your nose and passed your finger over your

    6 nose.

    7 MR. McCLOSKEY: The record should also

    8 indicate that the witness does have a scar where he

    9 pointed.

    10 Q. Did the soldiers say anything when they did

    11 this to your nose?

    12 A. They said, "Let him be. We'll be back."

    13 Q. And then what's the next thing -- what did

    14 you do after the soldiers cut you like this?

    15 A. Then women found some kerchiefs to stop the

    16 bleeding.

    17 Q. And eventually did you leave that place?

    18 A. When people began to go out of the Transport,

    19 we all left the Transport because it was not safe

    20 there.

    21 Q. And why did you decide it wasn't safe there,

    22 besides getting cut by soldiers? Anything else?

    23 A. Yes. Women were crying, "Yes, let's get out

    24 of here. Let's get out," and everybody did get out.

    25 Q. And about what time of day was it when you

  10. 1 and your family got out of the bus transport?

    2 A. It could have been around 11.00.

    3 Q. And where did you go?

    4 A. I went behind the Transport, because there

    5 were more people there and other people also started

    6 there, so I went along.

    7 Q. What kind of area was behind the Transport?

    8 A. It was a meadow, and there was some maize.

    9 Q. And how were you -- how long were you behind

    10 the Transport, in this area?

    11 A. Some 10, maybe 15 minutes.

    12 Q. And did you see anything happening nearby?

    13 A. I saw a machine, a tractor or something. I

    14 wasn't particularly keen on checking that. And I saw

    15 dead, heaped one on top of the other. And there were

    16 some more soldiers behind them, and I recognised

    17 Mr. Milisav Gavric, a former policeman in Srebrenica.

    18 Q. And how many dead did you see?

    19 A. I should say some 20 to 30 pieces.

    20 Q. And could you see any injuries to those dead

    21 people?

    22 A. I could see they were lying one on top of the

    23 other, but I could see that they had -- that their

    24 necks had been slit, cut, behind.

    25 Q. And can you describe, if you recall, what

  11. 1 this machine that you've described as a tractor was

    2 doing?

    3 A. Well, it looked like a tractor. I wasn't

    4 really paying much attention, because when I saw all

    5 those dead, it seemed -- or perhaps it was an excavator

    6 or something like that. It was digging.

    7 Q. And can you describe what Milisav Gavric was

    8 wearing and what he was doing at the time?

    9 A. He was wearing blue/grey police clothes and

    10 he had a dog on a leash.

    11 Q. Was he armed?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. What kind of weapon did he have?

    14 A. Over his shoulder, I couldn't really see much

    15 more, I only saw that he had it over his shoulder. I

    16 couldn't see the type.

    17 Q. And how long did you watch this scene that

    18 you've just described?

    19 A. A minute or two. Two minutes.

    20 Q. And then what did you do?

    21 A. Well, then, when I saw Milisav Gavric there

    22 and those men with their necks cut, then we went back

    23 to the Transport building. But we went up towards the

    24 janitor's building, facility, where UNPROFOR had a

    25 vehicle.

  12. 1 Q. All right.

    2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'd like to show the witness

    3 Exhibit 70.

    4 Q. And do you recall last night looking at a

    5 photograph of the Transport Company and marking on it

    6 where you saw these bodies and this tractor?

    7 A. [No audible response]

    8 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't hear your answer.

    9 A. Yes. Yes.

    10 Q. Well, here is a photocopy of the photograph

    11 that you marked last night. And could you take that

    12 pointer in front of you and tell us what those marks

    13 are and point to them on the photograph. Just look

    14 directly at the photograph, not the screen.

    15 A. I was here [indicates], and here was that

    16 tractor or excavator, or whatever. And those dead,

    17 with their necks cut, were here [indicates], and Gavric

    18 was here too.

    19 Q. So you're pointing to a little circle on the

    20 right-hand side of the screen with those little marks,

    21 and those marks represent the tractor, the bodies, and

    22 the soldiers, including Gavric. Is that right?

    23 A. Yes, and some soldiers were there.

    24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the other witness's

    25 microphone be switched on, please.

  13. 1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we switch the other

    2 microphone on so the interpretation can hear.

    3 Q. And the other area that's marked with a

    4 little "W," did you mark that last night as the area

    5 you witnessed this from?

    6 A. Yes. Yes.

    7 Q. And were you with your family at that time?

    8 A. Yes. My wife was there too, and my two

    9 children, and there were other people too, women.

    10 Q. So you were hiding somewhere in that

    11 vicinity, watching this tractor and the bodies.

    12 A. Yes.

    13 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'd also like to show the

    14 witness Exhibit 69.

    15 Q. Do you remember speaking with an investigator

    16 from the Office of the Prosecutor somewhere around

    17 November 1998?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. At that time did you have a chance to draw a

    20 diagram of the area where you saw the tractor and the

    21 bodies and the Transport Company?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. And Exhibit 69 that's in front of you, is

    24 that a copy of your drawing?

    25 A. It is.

  14. 1 Q. Can you explain the drawing a little bit?

    2 Point out what the various things are on it and what

    3 they mean, around the tractor and where you were.

    4 A. So Milisav Gavric was here [indicates];

    5 bodies were here [indicates]; and the tractor, right

    6 next to those bodies, that tractor, that machine.

    7 Q. All right. For the record, you indicated the

    8 initials "MG" was where Milisav Gavric was, and then

    9 the little circle is where the tractor was, and the

    10 bodies are next to that.

    11 You've written all those behind the Transport

    12 Company; is that right?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, you said after seeing

    15 this scene and Milisav Gavric, you left and went back

    16 to the Transport Company. And where exactly did you

    17 go?

    18 A. I went to where the buses were, in front of

    19 the janitor's house, where UNPROFOR vehicles were.

    20 Q. And what did you do there?

    21 A. Well, there were lots of people there, quite

    22 a number of men. The compound was full of people, of

    23 women and children and men, and they were all moving

    24 closer to UNPROFOR so as to get protection.

    25 Q. That day did you see any other Serb soldiers

  15. 1 or personnel that you knew from before the war?

    2 A. Sure, I did. When they started to coming

    3 toward where people were, I started to hide. Women hid

    4 me; they spread their pantaloons wide so that they

    5 wouldn't see me. I knew all those people well, and I

    6 dared not speak out.

    7 Q. Did you ever see a person you knew named

    8 Momir Nikolic?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. And when did you first see Momir Nikolic?

    11 A. That was in the afternoon.

    12 Q. The afternoon of the day that we're talking

    13 about now, July 12th, the day that you saw the bodies?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. And where was Momir Nikolic when you saw

    16 him?

    17 A. He was walking up and down with Jokic, a

    18 former policeman, and they had another man with them.

    19 He used to work in a shop, the third one. I knew him,

    20 but I didn't know his name. And there was also a

    21 female with them.

    22 Q. Okay. And you say that Momir Nikolic was

    23 walking up and down. Where was he walking up and down

    24 in particular?

    25 A. Below those -- behind those UNPROFOR

  16. 1 vehicles, where those burnt buses were, where people

    2 were.

    3 Q. Was he near the asphalt road?

    4 A. Well, some ten metres away.

    5 Q. And what was he wearing? What was Momir

    6 Nikolic wearing?

    7 A. He had a pair of jeans, a black T-shirt, and

    8 he had a moustache.

    9 Q. And how did you know Momir Nikolic?

    10 A. We used to be good friends before.

    11 Q. And what happened that afternoon and

    12 evening? Did you stay in that same location, in front

    13 of the Transport, or did you move around?

    14 A. No. I moved only when I would see a Serb.

    15 When I'd see a Serb, then I tried to hide so that he

    16 wouldn't see me.

    17 Q. Did you keep up the act that you talked about

    18 before?

    19 A. No.

    20 Q. So you didn't have to until a Serb actually

    21 saw you.

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. And where did you spend the night that

    24 night?

    25 A. That night I spent next to that janitor's

  17. 1 house, and there were APCs, UN APCs.

    2 Q. Can you describe that night, the night of the

    3 12th?

    4 A. I can, yes. People were sitting around; some

    5 were lying down. I was lying down, and there were more

    6 women lying next to me. I took a scarf, a kerchief, of

    7 my wife's, and I put it on my head, and I took the

    8 child Alma in my arms, and I covered myself with a

    9 blanket, up to my neck.

    10 And sometime after midnight, I think -- I

    11 couldn't sleep because I was too afraid and everything

    12 else -- but then they came with torches, with

    13 flashlamps, and they were looking and checking and I

    14 could hear screams and loud crying. Women were

    15 screaming, those screams were horrible, and I could see

    16 some men taking men away.

    17 Q. Could you tell, the people with the

    18 flashlights, who those people were?

    19 A. No, I cannot tell you that. I could not see

    20 it. I only saw that it was men taking away men.

    21 Q. And did this go on most of the night, these

    22 noises and screams and other things you've described?

    23 A. Well, it didn't go on all night long. It

    24 lasted for about two or three hours, those screams

    25 and ...

  18. 1 Q. Okay. Finally when the sun came up, what did

    2 you and your family do?

    3 A. People started down towards trucks and buses,

    4 and I could see that we were among the last ones, that

    5 people had already left. So I found, a cart, a

    6 wheelbarrow, and I told my wife, "Let's get it."

    7 I first looked to see if any of the Serb

    8 soldiers or any of the Serbs were looking in my

    9 direction, and I saw that nobody did. I managed to

    10 stand up and get into this wheelbarrow, and my wife

    11 pushed it. And I bent my head down and put my tongue

    12 out, I was also unshaven by that time, and I just

    13 pretended I was out of my mind, I was mad. And my wife

    14 pushed that wheelbarrow to the buses.

    15 I saw many Serb troops, and when we were some

    16 30 metres from the buses, a Serb soldier said, "Get

    17 him. Fuck your mother and his," and my wife said,

    18 "Well, he's sick." And he said, "Never mind that he's

    19 sick. To the side with him," so we had to stop. And I

    20 told my wife, "Go," and I bent down so they wouldn't

    21 see it, and I said, "Go and find an UNPROFOR man."

    22 She went to that UNPROFOR man and she was

    23 explaining something to him, because she couldn't speak

    24 the language, but then she pointed with her finger,

    25 pointed her finger at me and the wheelbarrow. And he

  19. 1 came then and took up that wheelbarrow and pushed it,

    2 with me inside, to Distribucija. [Interpreter's Note:

    3 The power distribution company, the interpreter

    4 presumes]. There was the Red Cross, and they were

    5 extending first aid there. And he lifted me from the

    6 wheelbarrow. I fell, since I saw some two Serb

    7 soldiers there, and they lifted me onto a bed, and I

    8 spent some two hours there.

    9 And right below was this Distribucija, and

    10 the buses were down there. I could watch on the sly;

    11 when I wouldn't see Serb soldiers there, then I would

    12 open my eyes and look. And I looked and I saw how

    13 women were boarding those buses, and as soon as a man

    14 would appear, a Serb soldier would press his rifle at

    15 his stomach and shout, "Gold. Gold. Money. Money.

    16 Marks. Marks." When somebody would say, "I don't have

    17 any, I haven't got any," then they would curse at

    18 them.

    19 Q. So were there UN soldiers around you,

    20 protecting you while you were acting out this part?

    21 A. You mean where the Red Cross was?

    22 Q. Yes.

    23 A. Yes. Yes. There were soldiers and some

    24 doctors, female. I know there were both female and

    25 male doctors.

  20. 1 Q. Now, where was this area exactly, compared to

    2 where people were being loaded onto the buses?

    3 A. It was in Potocari, near the distribution

    4 company, Distribucija.

    5 Q. Was it inside the UN base compound?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. Did you eventually get inside the compound?

    8 A. Well, at that point, a vehicle arrived and I

    9 was put on the trailer, together with my wife and my

    10 two children. So we set out in the direction of the

    11 base. It was an UNPROFOR vehicle that took me. And

    12 across the road, I could see a number of men, also a

    13 pile with their belongings. There was a house full of

    14 men in the vicinity. And then we reached the base, and

    15 I was put in a corridor. They told my wife and

    16 children that they could leave, and I stayed there.

    17 That night, at dusk, at sunset, I don't know

    18 what time it was, but I could see a little bit through

    19 a door that was open, Ratko Mladic arrived, together

    20 with his escort; there were some people accompanying

    21 him. I was lying down at that moment, and he

    22 approached me and he started yelling, and he asked me,

    23 "Which unit did you belong to?" and I just made this

    24 moaning sound, and he just said, "Look at this

    25 motherfucker, he's dying." So he cursed my mother

  21. 1 simply like that and left.

    2 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Momir Nikolic again?

    3 A. I saw Momir Nikolic, whether it was on the

    4 19th or the 20th, I don't remember, but Momir Nikolic

    5 came in together with the Red Cross people. He came to

    6 the base where we were accommodated. He was with

    7 Brano, a policeman from Bratunac, and they went from

    8 patient to patient, from bed to bed. There were a lot

    9 of infirm people there, lots of women as well.

    10 Brano was carrying a notebook and Momir

    11 didn't have anything. They also had some people

    12 accompanying them as an escort, and I knew them from

    13 Kravica, I mean their escort. So when he came to me,

    14 Brano said, "This guy here should be slaughtered

    15 immediately. I know him quite well from Bratunac.

    16 He's a cunning person." And then Momir said, "I know

    17 [name redacted]."

    18 There was an interpreter there, and a Dutch

    19 doctor arrived as well, and the interpreter talked to

    20 the doctor. Whether it was Momir or the doctor who

    21 saved me at that moment, I don't know.

    22 Q. But you were eventually that day transported

    23 out with the other sick and wounded and reunited with

    24 your family; is that right?

    25 A. Yes.

  22. 1 Q. I want to show you one more exhibit, which

    2 has been marked Exhibit 68.

    3 Do you recall that within the last couple of

    4 days I played you a video, which, for the record, is

    5 our Exhibit 3, and I asked you whether you were able to

    6 recognise any of the people in the video. Do you

    7 remember that?

    8 A. I remember this one [indicates]. I know him

    9 very well but I just can't remember his name.

    10 Q. All right. You've just pointed on Exhibit

    11 number 68, and could you point one more time so I can

    12 see where you pointed at. I'm sorry. Which person do

    13 you recognise?

    14 A. This one here [indicates].

    15 MR. McCLOSKEY: For the record, that's the

    16 person on the far left with the backpack.

    17 Q. Now, you got a better look at his face on the

    18 video, didn't you? It was a little better quality than

    19 this photograph.

    20 A. Yes. I know him well, independent of any

    21 photograph.

    22 Q. And how did you know him?

    23 A. I know him by sight. I used to see him often

    24 in Bratunac.

    25 Q. Thank you.

  23. 1 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have no further questions,

    2 Mr. President.

    3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I ask a

    4 question, if I'm allowed to do so?

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

    6 Witness H. Let us hear you.

    7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I should like

    8 to be asked whether I know this Krstic person here.

    9 JUDGE RIAD: We were going to ask you that.

    10 Just be patient.

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

    12 Mr. McCloskey.

    13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. I think I can do

    14 that.

    15 Q. Do you see anybody in court here that you

    16 recognise from back in Bosnia?

    17 A. I can see that one over there. That's

    18 Krstic, sitting in the back.

    19 Q. What's he wearing?

    20 A. He's wearing a suit. I can only see his

    21 shoulders, actually. Because I know that man very

    22 well. I don't know where I saw him, but I do know

    23 him. As soon as I got in the courtroom, I knew

    24 immediately. I know him really well but I just cannot

    25 remember where from. But I do know him well.

  24. 1 MR. McCLOSKEY: The record should indicate

    2 he's identified the defendant, General Krstic.

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

    4 very much, Mr. McCloskey.

    5 Witness H, now you are going to answer

    6 questions that will be put to you by Mr. Petrusic, who

    7 is representing General Krstic here.

    8 Mr. Petrusic, you have the floor.

    9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    10 Your Honour.

    11 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic:

    12 Q. Good afternoon, Witness H.

    13 A. Good afternoon.

    14 Q. The fact that you recognised General Krstic

    15 has inspired my first question. Do you know General

    16 Krstic from way back then? Is he the same person?

    17 A. You mean whether I know his face?

    18 Q. Yes.

    19 A. Yes. I'm perfectly honest with you. I know

    20 this man. I don't know where I used to see him but I

    21 know him completely.

    22 Q. But you can't remember where you know him

    23 from.

    24 A. No, I cannot, but I know that I know him. As

    25 soon as I saw him, right away, I knew that it was

  25. 1 Krstic. Whether I saw him in Potocari or somewhere

    2 else, I can't tell you, but I used to see him. I don't

    3 know where, but I used to see him quite a lot.

    4 Q. Before you were asked this question about the

    5 Prosecutor, you yourself volunteered, you said you

    6 wanted to say something, and you mentioned the name

    7 Vojislav Krstic.

    8 A. Well, I don't know. I know that "Krstic" is

    9 his last name. If I didn't know his name, I wouldn't

    10 know him. But I know him. But this guy on the

    11 photograph, for example, I know him very well, but I

    12 don't know his name.

    13 Q. Let us go back to the beginning of your

    14 testimony, Witness H. The Muslim army, that is, the

    15 Muslim men who had taken to the woods, were they armed?

    16 A. No.

    17 Q. Do you know where they gathered?

    18 A. You mean the soldiers?

    19 Q. Yes.

    20 A. You mean the Muslim army?

    21 Q. Yes.

    22 A. How would I know that?

    23 Q. You said they had gone through the woods.

    24 A. Yes. The soldiers went through the woods.

    25 Q. You say "the Muslim army," "the Muslim

  26. 1 soldiers."

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Let me ask you again: Were they armed?

    4 A. How could they be armed? All the weapons had

    5 been taken away by UNPROFOR.

    6 Q. Why are you then referring to them as

    7 soldiers, as the military?

    8 A. Well, everybody called them that way.

    9 Q. Was that army structured? Did they belong to

    10 any particular unit?

    11 A. No. They were like a civilian army. They

    12 didn't have proper uniforms. They had some kind of

    13 rifles. We called them army, but they didn't have

    14 proper uniforms or weapons.

    15 Q. Did you give any statements prior to this, to

    16 the representatives of the Prosecution?

    17 A. No.

    18 Q. Never?

    19 A. Well, I did in Sarajevo, in 1998, for

    20 example.

    21 [Defence counsel confer]

    22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

    23 Q. I should like to show you your statement at

    24 this point.

    25 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The exhibit

  27. 1 is marked D9.

    2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

    3 I should take the liberty to ask the witness, on your

    4 behalf, something that you also tell the witness in

    5 this case, to pause before giving his answer.

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Very

    7 well, Mr. Petrusic. Thank you very much for the

    8 attention you're paying to this.

    9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

    10 Q. Witness H, after I have asked my question,

    11 could you please wait a couple of seconds so that the

    12 interpreters can translate the question for the

    13 Chamber.

    14 I'm referring to your statement of the 27th

    15 of November, 1998. It is your statement, is it not?

    16 A. Yes, it is.

    17 Q. On page 4 of that statement, the third

    18 paragraph from the bottom, let me read you the first

    19 sentence of this paragraph:

    20 "Near to Gavric I also saw a red-coloured

    21 digger, making a hole, and next to this I saw a pile of

    22 approximately 40 or 50 dead bodies."

    23 A. You expect me to answer? Is that a

    24 question? Well, it is very difficult for you to

    25 understand me. I was terribly afraid. I saw this

  28. 1 machine, I saw this excavator, I wasn't sure it was an

    2 excavator, and I saw dead bodies, but they were on a

    3 pile.

    4 At that moment, I panicked and I became sick

    5 from that panic and from the fear, and I'm still

    6 suffering from the stress that I experienced at that

    7 moment. So don't tell me about that. I mean, do you

    8 understand that there are people doing such evil

    9 things? It's probably difficult for you to imagine

    10 that. But those people had to be defended, whereas

    11 they were actually doomed to disappear from the face of

    12 the earth.

    13 Q. Witness H, I do understand the suffering you

    14 have been through.

    15 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

    16 I'm not debating here with the witness. Let me stress

    17 once again that I do understand the suffering most of

    18 the witnesses have been through.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry

    20 to interrupt you, Mr. Petrusic.

    21 Witness H, please, if you can, try to answer

    22 the question put to you by Mr. Petrusic, because you

    23 also have to understand that he has a job to do here.

    24 So I kindly ask you to answer directly to the questions

    25 by Mr. Petrusic. Is that okay?

  29. 1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

    2 Honour. I'll do that.

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

    4 very much, Witness H.

    5 Mr. Petrusic, please continue.

    6 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    7 Mr. President.

    8 Q. Witness H, you can distinguish between an

    9 excavator and a tractor, can you not?

    10 A. Well, let me tell you, sir, at that moment, I

    11 cannot tell you exactly. When I saw the machine, it

    12 was a tractor or an excavator. I spent perhaps one

    13 minute or two observing those bodies. And immediately

    14 after that, I started running away. People were in a

    15 panic, they didn't know where to go. There were

    16 rumours about slaughters being committed at various

    17 places. So people panicked, and we no longer knew

    18 where to go.

    19 Q. You know Ibran Mustafic.

    20 A. Yes. We went to school together.

    21 Q. Could you perhaps tell us who took him away?

    22 A. No, I cannot tell you that. No.

    23 Q. You also knew, or rather had an opportunity

    24 to see on TV or in the media, photographs of General

    25 Mladic and of Arkan as well.

  30. 1 A. Yes. Yes, of Arkan as well.

    2 Q. In your statement, the one that you have in

    3 front of you, you say that General Mladic and Arkan

    4 came together and they passed you on their way.

    5 A. Yes. He was wearing civilian clothes and a

    6 tie.

    7 Q. Please continue.

    8 A. Yes. So he was wearing civilian clothes and

    9 he had a tie. Mladic was standing next to me and Arkan

    10 was standing next to Mladic, and I could see his face.

    11 I had seen him on TV and in the media, so I thought it

    12 was Arkan. I was not 100 per cent sure, but he looked

    13 like Arkan.

    14 Q. But you're not sure.

    15 A. Well, judging from what I had seen on TV and

    16 in the media, I could tell it was him. He had a pretty

    17 face.

    18 Q. Witness H, in that area you saw Serb soldiers

    19 for the first time, if I correctly understand your

    20 statement, from the window of the house where you were

    21 staying.

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. It was at that time that you could observe

    24 their insignia.

    25 A. Yes.

  31. 1 Q. How far away from you were they?

    2 A. I could see them through my window, and I

    3 think that they were between seven and ten metres away

    4 from me.

    5 Q. Speaking of their insignia, the one that

    6 would indicate which army it was, could you be more

    7 specific as to its dimensions?

    8 A. It was round in shape.

    9 Q. What is the perimeter of that -- what would

    10 be the perimeter -- the diameter, sorry, of that badge?

    11 A. Well, at that moment, I didn't know. I

    12 wasn't really interested, wasn't paying too much

    13 attention to that. I wasn't interested in finding out

    14 about the dimensions of the badge. I could only see

    15 them. I didn't bother observing it for a long time. I

    16 cannot tell you anything about the diameter of the

    17 badge.

    18 Q. Witness H, once again, I do understand the

    19 fear that you experienced at that time, but you see,

    20 you are now testifying and you obviously had some basis

    21 for your conclusions as to the insignia. So I would

    22 like to know whether you can be a little more precise,

    23 a little closer in your description.

    24 A. What exactly do you mean by "precision"?

    25 Q. Well, I'm interested in the colours, for

  32. 1 example. You saw that the badge was red, white, and

    2 blue.

    3 A. Yes, that is what I saw.

    4 Q. Was there anything written on it?

    5 A. Yes. I think something was written in yellow

    6 letters, like this [indicates].

    7 Q. Did you ever have an opportunity to see the

    8 badge?

    9 A. I can't remember.

    10 Q. In addition to this statement, the one that's

    11 been shown to you, did you ever give a statement to the

    12 police of Bosnia-Herzegovina and to the State

    13 Commission for Gathering Facts on War Crimes in the

    14 Territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    15 A. No, I did not. I don't remember.

    16 Q. Witness H, I suppose you have seen programmes

    17 about Srebrenica on television.

    18 A. To be perfectly honest with you, I simply

    19 couldn't watch it, because after the fall of

    20 Srebrenica, after what I had seen -- and I'm telling

    21 you this as a man -- after all the stress I was exposed

    22 to, I simply couldn't watch it anymore because I have

    23 to experience it all over again.

    24 Q. A few days ago, when you arrived here, did

    25 you have an opportunity to see the film at the Office

  33. 1 of the Prosecutor?

    2 A. Yes. I saw photographs, pictures, of the

    3 soldiers I could recognise.

    4 Q. Was General Krstic on those photographs?

    5 A. I cannot tell you that. I did not notice

    6 Stanislav Krstic. I said Vojislav, but it's actually

    7 Stanislav. No, I couldn't notice him. I cannot tell

    8 you anything about that.

    9 Q. But were you shown --

    10 A. Yes. Yes, I was shown a number of

    11 photographs. I was shown one photograph, and I

    12 recognised Krstic, Stanislav Krstic. But, simply, I

    13 cannot remember. I don't remember if I remember him

    14 for some good reasons or for some bad reasons. I can't

    15 tell you anything about that.

    16 Q. So you are referring to Stanislav Krstic.

    17 A. Yes.

    18 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    19 Mr. President. I have no more questions to ask of this

    20 witness.

    21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

    22 very much, Mr. Petrusic.

    23 Mr. McCloskey, will there be any

    24 re-examination?

    25 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.

  34. 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

    2 very much, Mr. McCloskey.

    3 Judge Fouad Riad.

    4 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    5 Mr. President.

    6 Questioned by the Court:

    7 JUDGE RIAD: Witness H, look at me here.

    8 Good morning.

    9 A. Good morning, Your Honour.

    10 JUDGE RIAD: I just want from you very brief

    11 answers because you have been very clear. We just

    12 understood that you acted as a mad man and as a sick

    13 man to avoid being, as you said, slaughtered. So I

    14 could have drawn two conclusions from that: that you

    15 thought, you or the people in the place, thought that

    16 everybody, every man would be slaughtered except the

    17 sick or the mad. Was that the general idea, the

    18 general rumour at that time, on the 11th of July?

    19 A. Well, you know, I feigned madness because I

    20 thought nobody wants to hurt a fool, you know. And

    21 those people could not stay there, because I think that

    22 half of the people would have stayed there if Serbs

    23 left them alone, but people simply couldn't stay there

    24 because nobody could stay and stay alive.

    25 JUDGE RIAD: So the idea which you all

  35. 1 believed is that nobody can stay alive in Srebrenica.

    2 Already you knew that.

    3 A. Yes. Yes, I knew that. I knew that nobody

    4 could stay alive in Srebrenica?

    5 JUDGE RIAD: And what made you think that?

    6 What made you think already that? Because that was

    7 even before anything happened.

    8 A. Because from the moment the war started, I

    9 thought -- I had quite a number of Serb friends. There

    10 were more Serbs among my friends than Muslims, because

    11 I was mostly pals with Serbs. And then when I saw,

    12 "Oh, they want a war," then these friends didn't even

    13 want to know me anymore. And then one couldn't but

    14 realise that there was no more life for us there once

    15 the war broke out.

    16 And from what I could hear about all these

    17 slaughters, about all the killings, from the beginning

    18 of the war, around in different villages, how they

    19 killed people, how they slit children's throats and all

    20 that, as a man, I've lost many people around me;

    21 however, I did not have any losses in my family. I

    22 have two brothers but none of them were killed, you

    23 know. But still ...

    24 JUDGE RIAD: I understood. But in addition

    25 to what you were watching, was the media, the Serb

  36. 1 media, propagating the fear that Muslims would be

    2 cleansed?

    3 A. Yes. Yes. Yes, there were stories about

    4 that.

    5 JUDGE RIAD: In the media? Do you know what

    6 the media is, the radio?

    7 A. Yes, in the media, they were all saying "Serb

    8 Srebrenica" on the radio. We didn't have much power,

    9 really, at our disposal. We could -- we had some

    10 makeshift power stations, we had the streams, so we

    11 managed with some generators to listen to the radio.

    12 And there were all sorts of statements, such as, "The

    13 world is feeding you. The world is feeding you to make

    14 you -- to fatten you so that we can slaughter you

    15 better," for instance, you could hear things like that

    16 on a Serb station, a Serb radio station.

    17 JUDGE RIAD: Now, when you said that you

    18 pretended you were mad, the soldiers saw you and passed

    19 the scissors and left a scar on your nose. What did

    20 they do with the other men, the other people? What did

    21 they do with the others? Did they also try to pass

    22 scissors or cut things, or what did they do with them?

    23 Or were they just playing with you?

    24 A. You mean in that compound where I was?

    25 JUDGE RIAD: Yes.

  37. 1 A. I really couldn't see anything. Why did they

    2 do it to me? I don't know. Whether they were just

    3 playing with me, whether they really wanted to cut off

    4 my nose, I don't know.

    5 JUDGE RIAD: Now, we come to the -- at 11.00,

    6 when you went behind the Transport Company, on the

    7 meadow, you saw, as you said, between 20 and 30 dead

    8 people, with their necks cut. How far were you from

    9 them? Was the vision very clear? Could you see they

    10 were dead with their necks cut?

    11 A. Yes. Let me tell you, I had a good view. I

    12 can't tell you exactly to a millimetre, but it was -- I

    13 was some 20 to 30 metres away, you see, so I could see

    14 it. I saw people lying down in a heap, and I -- you

    15 know, I saw them lie down and I could see those wounds

    16 here [indicates]. They were not decapitated, not

    17 altogether, but their necks, you know.

    18 JUDGE RIAD: And it was already there, done.

    19 It was already accomplished, or was this man Gavric

    20 still doing something? You said he had a dog and was

    21 walking around. What was he doing? Was he continuing

    22 the slaughter?

    23 A. I didn't see. I didn't see that. I didn't

    24 see that he went on to slaughter anyone. I can't say

    25 what I didn't see.

  38. 1 JUDGE RIAD: So what was he doing? You saw

    2 him with a dog going around. Could you see anything in

    3 particular?

    4 A. No, I just saw some more soldiers, and Gavric

    5 with the dog on a leash, standing there. And I only

    6 watched it for a minute or two, because when I saw

    7 Gavric and all that, you know, I simply had to think

    8 how to get away.

    9 JUDGE RIAD: But you had the very clear idea

    10 that it was done, this killing was done, by soldiers?

    11 A. Well, yes.

    12 JUDGE RIAD: It couldn't have been done by

    13 anybody else.

    14 A. Who could it be? Who else could do something

    15 like that?

    16 JUDGE RIAD: Now, when you spent the night in

    17 the janitor's house -- next to the janitor's house, you

    18 heard women screaming and men taken away with

    19 flashlamps. Did you understand why the women were

    20 screaming?

    21 A. I only heard them screaming. "Brothers, help

    22 us. They're taking all our men away." They were

    23 sobbing and screaming, and I was terribly afraid

    24 because they came with those flashlights. They came up

    25 to me, but I had this child in my arms and had this

  39. 1 scarf on my head, and they searched with a flashlight.

    2 They came with a flashlight up to me, but I was covered

    3 and I had the child in my arms, so perhaps they thought

    4 that I was a female, so they left me alone. I don't

    5 know. Except in the morning, when I got up, I saw that

    6 men were gone. I could see a couple of elderly men,

    7 but all those men that I saw the day before and the

    8 evening before, in the morning they were gone.

    9 JUDGE RIAD: You said they were selecting

    10 with a flashlamp. Was there any order in the

    11 selection? Were they looking for some people, or were

    12 they just taking anybody, except, of course, women?

    13 A. Well, from what I could see, from where I

    14 was, that is, near me, any man that was near me, young

    15 or old, all those men were gone.

    16 JUDGE RIAD: And finally, you spoke of when

    17 you had female doctors around you, when you were

    18 taken. These female doctors belonged to what? Were

    19 they Serb female doctors? Were the Serbs having their

    20 doctors too, to look after the wounded? Or were they

    21 Red Cross? What were they, these female doctors?

    22 A. Oh, that was -- I saw two of them. I think

    23 they came from the Red Cross. They spoke

    24 Serbo-Croatian, I think. [Interpreter's Note: Witness

    25 said, "They did not speak Serbo-Croat"]. They were

  40. 1 extending aid there.

    2 JUDGE RIAD: Extending aid to the Muslims?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 JUDGE RIAD: I mean, to the wounded or what?

    5 Since they were wounding them and slaughtering them.

    6 What were their doctors doing?

    7 A. I saw them dress some wounds. They also

    8 dressed the wounds of some women, because there were

    9 women there too. When I saw those two Serb soldiers, I

    10 again closed my eyes. I mean, as soon as I would see a

    11 Serb soldier, I would close my eyes and put my tongue

    12 out and pretend I was crazy and paralysed.

    13 JUDGE RIAD: Finally, why did Momir -- you

    14 said Momir saved you, although Brano wanted to

    15 slaughter you. Was he a friend of yours? How were you

    16 saved?

    17 A. Well, I cannot tell you exactly, but in

    18 truth, Brano said, "Oh, we have to slaughter him

    19 immediately," and Momir said, "No, I know him," and he

    20 was a great friend of mine. Yes, we were really close

    21 friends. Now, whether Momir saved me, or was it the

    22 Dutch doctor, I don't -- I can't tell you exactly. But

    23 somehow I think that it was Momir, if he wanted to, and

    24 he might have done it. I think -- it is my impression

    25 it was Momir who saved me.

  41. 1 JUDGE RIAD: We are very happy that you are

    2 alive and to see you. Thank you.

    3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    5 Judge Riad. I also have a few questions for you.

    6 You said that when you entered this

    7 courtroom, you recognised something, Vojislav or

    8 General Krstic. You said something like that. Did you

    9 see him somewhere, sometime before?

    10 A. Let me tell you, Your Honour, I was wrong. I

    11 said Vojislav, but he's not Vojislav, he's Stanislav

    12 Krstic. I don't know. I really saw that man a number

    13 of times. I mean, I just know his face. His face is

    14 very familiar to me.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. No, I

    16 don't question your conclusion. All I want to know is

    17 how did you arrive that conclusion? And if you could

    18 answer my questions precisely. Did you, at least once,

    19 see General Krstic, and if so, where?

    20 A. I really -- I'm really telling you, I don't

    21 know where I saw that man, but his face is so familiar

    22 to me, but I can't tell you.

    23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you

    24 know, what did he do for a living? What was his

    25 profession?

  42. 1 A. No.

    2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

    3 Do you remember what he wore?

    4 A. I can't tell you. All I can say is that I

    5 saw him in civilian clothes. Really, I cannot really

    6 say -- burden my soul by saying I saw something that I

    7 didn't.

    8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Of course,

    9 Witness H. As I said, I'm not questioning your

    10 conclusions. But you saw him then wearing civilian

    11 clothes before you entered this courtroom or after you

    12 entered this courtroom?

    13 A. The first time, when this gentleman showed me

    14 Krstic's photograph, I said, "I know the man. I really

    15 know him." And as soon as I entered the courtroom, I

    16 immediately recognised him. As soon as I came through

    17 this door, I looked and I knew it was him. I just know

    18 that name, I know that face, but I really, for the life

    19 of me, can't remember where I saw the man, where it

    20 was. I really don't.

    21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I

    22 understand very well, Witness H. It happens to me too,

    23 that in the street, I can identify a person whom I saw

    24 only on a photograph. All I wanted to know was where

    25 did you come to know him. I do not doubt your

  43. 1 conclusions.

    2 But what I can then conclude is that you

    3 never met in a coffee shop or in the street or in some

    4 office or building, anything, and you simply have that

    5 image in your mind somewhere; is that it?

    6 A. From what I think, I used to see Mr. Krstic

    7 in Milici; that is, now, when I think back, I think it

    8 was in Milici that I used to see him.

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

    10 You're already becoming more concrete. It seems to

    11 you, you think that it could have been in Milici that

    12 you saw General Krstic. Would you remember the

    13 setting?

    14 A. I had a friend in Milici and would go to

    15 visit him there, and I spent a lot of time there. And

    16 I think, I don't really know, I won't know where that

    17 man came from or who he was or what he was, but then I

    18 heard rumours that he'd been declared a war criminal,

    19 or anything. That is what I heard. But I never heard

    20 any information about him or anything.

    21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Milici, you

    22 say, is where perhaps you might have seen him. Was it

    23 at night-time or in daytime? Was he alone or in the

    24 company of somebody?

    25 A. Daytime. But again I must repeat it. Please

  44. 1 don't understand me wrongly. It could have been in

    2 Potocari among the troops, when the soldiers were

    3 there. It could have been there too. But somehow I

    4 think that I used to see him wearing civilian clothes,

    5 and in Milici. I'm telling you what I really think and

    6 what I can tell you.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] All right.

    8 Very well, Witness H. You told Judge Riad that there

    9 was a Serb radio station which said all sorts of

    10 things. Was there a Muslim radio station as well?

    11 A. In Srebrenica?

    12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.

    13 A. No.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And how

    15 about television?

    16 A. We watched only Serb television, I mean, a

    17 Serb programme.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So the Serb

    19 radio station and the Serb television were the ones

    20 which you could watch in Srebrenica, and they belonged

    21 to Serbs.

    22 A. Yes. A month earlier, on television I

    23 watched when that -- what was his name? It slips my

    24 mind -- when he said that he would disarm the Muslims

    25 and kill them all. Radovan Karadzic. Radovan

  45. 1 Karadzic, he was the one who said it. I knew I had it

    2 somewhere. I couldn't remember it for a moment.

    3 A month before Srebrenica fell, he said, "I

    4 will disarm the Muslims in Srebrenica and kill them

    5 all," the Muslims.

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you are

    7 telling us that Radovan Karadzic said that a month

    8 before Srebrenica fell?

    9 A. A month before. A month before.

    10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. And

    11 you could hear statements of that nature every day?

    12 A. Oh, yes.

    13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another

    14 question. You told us about screams and sobbing of

    15 women during the night. Those cries, those screams,

    16 were they real or had they been recorded, perhaps?

    17 Would you have any idea?

    18 A. Oh, no, no, no. That was happening. That

    19 was real. They were crying, they were indeed crying,

    20 because when so many women begin to cry, I don't know,

    21 if I had any power to dig a hole with my hands and hide

    22 in that hole, that is how I felt as a man. Because

    23 what I experienced, I can't really believe it. I

    24 cannot believe that people -- I don't say that all

    25 Serbs are like that, but the majority of them, that

  46. 1 they could do it to people. You know, a man feels

    2 sorry for a beast when he kills it. What kind of human

    3 people are they? For instance, that gentleman,

    4 Mr. Krstic, if he was responsible to stop that, you

    5 know ...

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank

    7 you, Witness H. You are about to finish your

    8 testimony, but I think, Mr. Dubuisson, we still have

    9 some exhibits.

    10 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes. They

    11 are Prosecution Exhibits 68, 69, and 70, and for the

    12 Defence, D9.

    13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.

    14 Mr. McCloskey, as for 68, 69, and 70, do you

    15 have to say something?

    16 MR. McCLOSKEY: On 69, there's a signature

    17 that we're not sure exactly whose it is at this point.

    18 I might -- we may just out of an abundance of caution

    19 excise -- delete it so that if it happens to be the

    20 witness's, it's not there. The same thing is true of

    21 the statement of the Defence. We have redacted that

    22 and can provide it to the registry so that that can be

    23 sorted out also.

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

    25 Mr. McCloskey, thank you very much.

  47. 1 Mr. Petrusic.

    2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No, we have no

    3 objections to any of the Prosecution Exhibits, and we

    4 should like to adduce this statement as Exhibit D9, I

    5 believe.

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] After the

    7 necessary redaction, so as to conceal the identity of

    8 the witness. Is that what you agree with,

    9 Mr. Petrusic? You will agree with that?

    10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of

    11 course, naturally.

    12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

    13 Thank you very much.

    14 Mr. Dubuisson, we shall therefore admit into

    15 evidence 68, 69, D9, and following the redaction, we

    16 shall also have them as publicly accessible versions.

    17 Is that so?

    18 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness H,

    20 you have now finished your testimony. Thank you very

    21 much for coming here. But would you like to add

    22 anything that you have not had the opportunity of

    23 telling us before?

    24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, what do

    25 you know? If I have anything to add? I wanted to say

  48. 1 that those people, those Serbs, it is simply beyond me

    2 how they could do it. I don't say all of them are like

    3 that, but what kind of people are they? And if

    4 Mr. Krstic could put a stop to it and didn't want to, I

    5 don't really know who can defend such people, I mean,

    6 people who committed such a misdeed. I simply -- it is

    7 simply way beyond me.

    8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,

    9 Witness H, but remember that not all the Serbs are like

    10 some of them, and I think it holds true of everybody.

    11 At any rate, thank you very much for coming

    12 here, and I hope that this badge that you have, these

    13 words that you have on your jacket, "Happy for life,"

    14 that it will be communicated to your heart, to your

    15 soul, and many other people, be they Serbs or Muslims

    16 or Croats, or whatever, that they should always try to

    17 have it inscribed on their heart, because everything

    18 comes from there. And from this phrase you have, have

    19 a happy life.

    20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You too.

    21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

    22 very much. We shall now make a break. But will the

    23 usher help Witness H to leave the courtroom.

    24 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] For the

    25 record, I should like to note that we did mark 70. So

  49. 1 we have 68, 69, 70, and D9 as the exhibits entered for

    2 this witness.

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.

    4 Mr. Harmon, before the break, however, who

    5 will be our next witness? And where are we now? I

    6 mean, in terms of the number of witnesses. How many of

    7 them shall we have tomorrow? Several? Or am I being

    8 optimistic.

    9 MR. HARMON: We will start one this

    10 afternoon. I don't know, since it is Mr. Cayley's

    11 witness, how long that witness will last, and then we

    12 have witnesses scheduled for tomorrow, at least one who

    13 will be a long witness. And we have evidence to follow

    14 that witness in the event it's shorter than I

    15 anticipate.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And the

    17 witness whom you shall have after the break, does he

    18 need any protective measures?

    19 MR. HARMON: I don't know, Mr. President.

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. It was

    21 only in view of saving time, to have the preparations

    22 necessary.

    23 Are we in an open session?

    24 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes, we are.

    25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Our only

  50. 1 concern is the public sessions, that is, the public

    2 needs to now whether it will be a closed or an open

    3 session. We need to know that before that, and besides

    4 adjustments need to be made.

    5 But whatever the case, we shall have a

    6 20-minute break. We shall resume then and we shall

    7 have to find out whether we will be working in an open

    8 or a closed session.

    9 --- Recess taken at 1.24 p.m.

    10 --- On resuming at 1.47 p.m.

    11 [Open session]

    12 [The witness entered court]

    13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

    14 afternoon, Witness. I don't know whether I'm going to

    15 pronounce your name correctly. "Van Duijn," more or

    16 less.

    17 THE WITNESS: Yes.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    19 Good afternoon.

    20 Let us first hear the solemn declaration that

    21 the usher will show you, please.

    22 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    24 truth.

    25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be

  51. 1 seated now.

    2 [The witness sits down]

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

    4 for coming here to testify, Witness. You will first

    5 answer questions that are going to be put to you by

    6 Mr. Cayley, who is representing the Prosecution.

    7 Mr. Cayley.

    8 MR. CAYLEY: Good afternoon, Mr. President;

    9 counsel. Thank you.


    11 Examined by Mr. Cayley:

    12 Q. Captain van Duijn, from the outset, you speak

    13 excellent English but if there is anything you don't

    14 understand that I ask you, or that, indeed, the Defence

    15 ask you, please do ask for the question to be repeated

    16 or clarified.

    17 Your name is Captain Leendert van Duijn; is

    18 that correct?

    19 A. That's correct.

    20 Q. And you are Dutch by nationality?

    21 A. Yes, I am.

    22 Q. I think you are presently a captain in the

    23 Royal Dutch army, serving with the Limburgse Jagers in

    24 Germany; is that correct?

    25 A. That's correct.

  52. 1 Q. You attended the Royal Military Academy in

    2 Breda from 1989 to 1993 --

    3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness' second

    4 microphone be switched on, please?

    5 MR. CAYLEY:

    6 Q. If you could just wait a moment. The second

    7 microphone needs to be switched on. You might also

    8 actually, if you wish, put the headphones on because

    9 the Judges may intervene while I'm questioning you and

    10 they will be speaking to you in French.

    11 You attended the Royal Military Academy from

    12 1989 to 1993; is that correct?

    13 A. That's correct.

    14 Q. And I think at the end of 1993 you were

    15 commissioned into the army as a second lieutenant.

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. And I think in November of 1994, you were

    18 promoted to a first lieutenant; is that correct?

    19 A. That's correct.

    20 Q. And then I think in January of 1995, you

    21 deployed to Bosnia with DutchBat III as a platoon

    22 commander; is that correct?

    23 A. That's correct as well.

    24 THE INTERPRETER: Could you also please make

    25 a break between question and answer.

  53. 1 MR. CAYLEY:

    2 Q. It's hard, and I'll try to go as slow as I

    3 can, to break between my asking you a question and your

    4 answering, because there are interpreters between us.

    5 How long had you spent with your platoon in

    6 the Netherlands training prior to actually going out to

    7 Bosnia?

    8 A. It was a period of about six months of

    9 training.

    10 Q. What was the average age of the men in your

    11 platoon?

    12 A. Must have been more or less about 19 years

    13 old or something.

    14 Q. So they were essentially late teenagers who

    15 were serving under you.

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. How old were you at the time?

    18 A. I was at the time 24, turning 25 in May.

    19 Q. So you deployed to Bosnia, really, as a young

    20 officer and a brand new platoon commander in the army.

    21 A. That's true.

    22 Q. I want you now to cast your mind back to July

    23 of 1995, and I want to concentrate first on the period

    24 of the 9th and 10th of July of 1995.

    25 Do you recall where you were at that time?

  54. 1 A. At that time, I was in a blocking position,

    2 south of the city of Srebrenica.

    3 Q. Can you explain to the Judges what a blocking

    4 position was?

    5 A. It was a position taken by the UN with APCs

    6 and personnel to try and block the Serb forces that

    7 were coming from the south, towards the north,

    8 threatening the city of Srebrenica.

    9 Q. Could you stand up and look at the map, which

    10 is Prosecutor's Exhibit 1E. If the camera can zoom in

    11 immediately. If you can point to the approximate

    12 position of the blocking position.

    13 A. [Indicates]

    14 Q. And you could hold the pointer there.

    15 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the

    16 witness is pointing to a position just below the yellow

    17 circle marked "H" within the Srebrenica enclave, and to

    18 the right of where it's stated in blue "UN Bravo

    19 Company".

    20 Q. Captain van Duijn, you can sit down now.

    21 Thank you.

    22 Now, you said in your evidence that you were

    23 blocking the Serb forces that were coming from the

    24 south, towards the north, and threatening the city of

    25 Srebrenica. Why did you need to block the Serb forces

  55. 1 that were advancing on Srebrenica?

    2 A. It was an order of my captain, Captain

    3 Matthijssen, who had ordered me to go south to help the

    4 Bravo Company, because of the Serb forces that were

    5 engaging and coming in a northern direction,

    6 threatening the city where all the Muslim refugees were

    7 living.

    8 At that time, we didn't know what was going

    9 on. There was a lot of shelling going on in that

    10 period, so we were afraid that also the city would fall

    11 into the hands of the Serbs. And together with air

    12 attacks, we would try to block the Serb forces that

    13 were coming from the south, to the north.

    14 Q. Can you describe to the Judges the scene that

    15 you saw on the 10th of July in Srebrenica, whilst you

    16 were at the blocking position?

    17 A. We were standing near the APC and there was

    18 shelling going on. Most of the time, there was

    19 shelling over our heads, on the city itself. We could

    20 see smoke coming out of the houses; we could sometimes

    21 see the shelling hitting the houses of the town of

    22 Srebrenica. At one point -- sometimes the shelling

    23 would also be directed at us and near the APCs; you

    24 could hear it on the sides of the APCs as well.

    25 Q. You mentioned a moment ago that you were

  56. 1 there to protect the refugees in Srebrenica. Can you

    2 explain to the Judges the state of the refugees that

    3 you saw and what they were doing at this time?

    4 A. They were very scared, of course, by the

    5 shelling. They were fleeing towards the north, towards

    6 the UN compounds, because that basically was the only

    7 safe place in the enclave left. They were panicked.

    8 There was total chaos. They tried to get whatever they

    9 had left to take with them and move to the north.

    10 Q. Whilst you were at the blocking position, did

    11 you see any members of the Muslim army?

    12 A. Yes, I saw them. Yes.

    13 Q. Can you tell the Judges what you saw?

    14 A. We saw a few soldiers in the vicinity of our

    15 location, threatening with rocket launchers to shoot

    16 our APCs if we would leave that location. And there

    17 were a few soldiers as well, when they also retreated

    18 to the north, who were not helping the refugees that

    19 tried to flee to the north.

    20 Q. Why were these Bosnian Muslim soldiers

    21 threatening to shoot at your vehicle?

    22 A. Because they wanted us to stay there and

    23 remain in the blocking position and also fight against

    24 the Serbs.

    25 Q. Do you recall at what period in time you left

  57. 1 this blocking position?

    2 A. It was during the afternoon of the 10th, I

    3 think that was, and we left because all of the refugees

    4 had left there. The whole part of the town, the

    5 southern part of the town, was left by all the people

    6 that had lived there. So there was no reason for us to

    7 stay there, because we had poor sight of the vicinity.

    8 So we retreated towards the UN compound, to see if we

    9 could help there.

    10 Q. Now, you say that the town had -- essentially

    11 all of the people had left the town. Can you describe

    12 the scene, as you saw it, when you left Srebrenica?

    13 A. It was totally abandoned, there was no one

    14 left there.

    15 Q. As you moved back yourself to the UN

    16 compound, did you see anything on the road between

    17 Srebrenica and Potocari?

    18 A. I saw some people sitting by the side of the

    19 road, and we tried to take as many of the refugees that

    20 were sitting alongside of the road, to take them with

    21 us, on top of the APC or inside the APC. There were

    22 some personal belongings scattered on the sides of the

    23 roads, but I didn't see specific things on the road

    24 itself.

    25 Q. If we can now move to the night of the 11th

  58. 1 and 12th of July of 1995. Can you tell the Judges

    2 where you were at that time and what happened during

    3 that evening?

    4 A. We went to a point we called "point 02,"

    5 that's the road that goes towards the town of Susnjari,

    6 and we took a position there to wait for the coming of

    7 the APC of Sergeant Mulder, who had been at OP Mike,

    8 observation post Mike, and who was retreating, together

    9 with a lot of refugees. And we had to take position

    10 there, at first at point 02 itself, and later on a

    11 little bit more to the north, near the factory sites.

    12 Q. If you could just get up and show on the map

    13 the point which is "02" so as to orientate the Judges.

    14 A. This is point 02 [indicates], OP Mike, and

    15 the road from Susnjari to point O2 --

    16 Q. If you could just hold the pointer there.

    17 MR. CAYLEY: The witness is pointing, on

    18 Prosecutor's Exhibit 1E, to the intersection of the

    19 road coming from Susnjari to the road that runs from

    20 Bratunac down to Zeleni Jadar, and this is a T-junction

    21 next to a violet or purple-coloured triangle.

    22 Q. Thank you, Captain van Duijn. You can please

    23 take a seat.

    24 Do you recall the arrival of Sergeant Mulder

    25 in his APC?

  59. 1 A. It was late at night, about 10.00 or 11.00 in

    2 the evening, and he was standing with his APC on the

    3 road. Our APCs were alongside the road, and he was

    4 standing in the middle of that, and his APC was covered

    5 with refugees, and a lot of refugees followed in the

    6 trail of the APC. We took about half an hour or 45

    7 minutes to get everyone off and out of the APC.

    8 Q. If we can now move to the morning of the 12th

    9 of July, and if you can tell the Judges what you saw

    10 that morning.

    11 A. That morning we heard, by radio, that Serb

    12 forces were walking past the fences of the UN compound,

    13 and by order of Captain Groen, who was at my location,

    14 we put all the weapons we had, small-calibre weapons,

    15 inside one APC, and we lifted the .50-calibre

    16 machine-guns from the APCs towards the skies, and we

    17 saw the Serb forces coming towards our location on the

    18 road, and another group of Serb soldiers through the

    19 fields.

    20 Q. Could you rise, please, Captain van Duijn,

    21 and show, on Prosecutor's Exhibit 1E, the direction

    22 that you could see Bosnian Serb soldiers coming from

    23 that morning.

    24 A. [Indicates]. Two soldiers were coming over

    25 the road, from north to south, towards my location,

  60. 1 between point 02 and the UN base, and another group was

    2 coming east of the UN base and walking through the

    3 fields towards point 02.

    4 Q. So could you indicate where you saw the first

    5 group? And if you could actually move the pointer up

    6 and down, and I will describe.

    7 A. The first group was on the road, coming

    8 towards our location.

    9 Q. So it would be right to say that they were

    10 coming from Bratunac.

    11 A. Yes, that's true.

    12 MR. CAYLEY: So let the record show that the

    13 witness is indicating, on Prosecutor's Exhibit 1E, that

    14 the first group of soldiers was walking down the road

    15 from the direction of Bratunac, towards the UN base,

    16 which is marked with a blue square inside the enclave.

    17 Q. Captain van Duijn, the second group of

    18 soldiers that you saw?

    19 A. We saw them -- and I think they passed the UN

    20 base on the eastern side, following the fence, because

    21 we saw them walking through the fields, south of the UN

    22 base, towards 02.

    23 MR. CAYLEY: And then let the record show

    24 that the witness is indicating that the second group of

    25 soldiers was walking down the right-hand side of the

  61. 1 blue square marked "UN base," down to the bottom of

    2 that square, through an area which is green and, I

    3 suppose, represents fields around the UN base.

    4 Q. Thank you, Captain van Duijn. You can sit

    5 down.

    6 If you recall, do you recall the pattern of

    7 the uniform that these Bosnian Serb soldiers were

    8 wearing?

    9 A. They had camouflage-pattern uniforms, but

    10 together combined with all sorts of pieces of

    11 uniforms. They had bandannas on their heads, backpacks

    12 on with different colours of camouflage patterns. So

    13 all sorts of combined uniforms.

    14 Q. And the colour of the camouflage, what colour

    15 camouflage --

    16 A. It was green.

    17 Q. It was green. Do you recall the first

    18 soldiers that actually arrived at your location at that

    19 time?

    20 A. We saw a few of the soldiers combined in that

    21 green uniform with bandannas, or with a Serb flag

    22 covered around them, and they had backpacks filled with

    23 cigarettes and gave them to our soldiers as sort of

    24 presents.

    25 Q. Did you see these Bosnian Serb soldiers do

  62. 1 anything after that, after they were handing out these

    2 cigarettes?

    3 A. The group that came through the fields, and I

    4 could see them coming on the road near point 02, and

    5 from there on went into the houses that were near point

    6 02, I could see some characters staying on the road and

    7 other soldiers entering the houses and coming out of

    8 the houses again. I assume that they were looking if

    9 the houses were empty or not.

    10 Q. And point 02 is the point that you indicated

    11 on the map next to you earlier.

    12 A. Correct.

    13 Q. And the houses were nearby to that point.

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Do you know who those houses belonged to?

    16 A. I suspect to the refugees that used to live

    17 there.

    18 Q. And they were Muslim refugees.

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Let's move ahead in time to later that

    21 morning, and I think you met with Groen, the company

    22 commander. What conversation did you have with him?

    23 A. Captain Groen was at my location, and I asked

    24 him if we could do anything at all because we were just

    25 standing there, waiting for things to happen, and he

  63. 1 told me that we should go on the road to the north,

    2 towards the UN base. There would be a big

    3 concentration of refugees over there and there would be

    4 some UN soldiers there to try and calm them, and he

    5 said, "Go over there and maybe you can help the UN

    6 soldiers that are over there, on that location," and

    7 that's what I did.

    8 Q. And that was to essentially assist the

    9 refugees that were, at that time, spread all over the

    10 factory sites and in the UN compound.

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. At that point in time, can you roughly

    13 estimate how many refugees there were in and around the

    14 compound at Potocari?

    15 A. Around the compound, around the factory

    16 sites, there must have been 20.000, 30.000 Muslim

    17 refugees.

    18 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown

    19 Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/2, please.

    20 Q. Captain van Duijn, do you recall the position

    21 that you took up on the 12th of July to direct the

    22 soldiers that were working among the refugees?

    23 A. It must have been in this area here

    24 [indicates], near the factory sites that were located

    25 here [indicates].

  64. 1 Q. If you can place your pointer in the centre

    2 of where you're marking.

    3 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the

    4 witness is marking, on Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/2, on the

    5 road that runs like a ribbon from the north to the

    6 south of the photograph, and he's indicating to a point

    7 just to the right and below the Express Bus Compound

    8 and to the left and below the Zinc Factory.

    9 Q. Okay. Thank you, Captain van Duijn. We can

    10 leave that exhibit on the ELMO.

    11 Now, I think at this point you were

    12 approached by a member of the VRS; do you recall that?

    13 A. It was a soldier that said he was a captain

    14 named Mane, and he said he was in charge of the Serb

    15 soldiers that were in that location, on that location.

    16 Q. So specifically in that particular area of

    17 Potocari.

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. So he was a local, sort of, subordinate

    20 commander.

    21 A. Yes, that's right.

    22 Q. Did Captain Mane say to which unit he

    23 belonged?

    24 A. He said he was a military police which had a

    25 sort of liaison with what he called the Drina Wolves,

  65. 1 the Drina Corps. He said he wasn't in the Drina Corps,

    2 but his military police unit was more or less working

    3 together with the Drina Wolves.

    4 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness can be shown

    5 Prosecutor's Exhibit 71 and then 72, and if 73 and 74

    6 are made ready, then we can move through these

    7 photographs quite quickly.

    8 Mr. President, these are stills that have

    9 been taken from Prosecutor's Exhibit 3. The witness

    10 was shown the video prior to his testimony, and he will

    11 identify a number of individuals with whom he had

    12 dealings or whom he recognises.

    13 Q. Now, Captain van Duijn, this first

    14 photograph, who are the individuals on this photograph?

    15 A. This is the guy that called himself Captain

    16 Mane.

    17 Q. And who's the individual on the right?

    18 A. That's myself.

    19 MR. CAYLEY: So let the record show that the

    20 witness is indicating that the individual on the left

    21 is Captain Mane and the individual on the right is the

    22 witness, Captain van Duijn.

    23 If the witness could be shown the next

    24 exhibit, Prosecutor's Exhibit 72.

    25 Q. Do you recognise that individual?

  66. 1 A. That's Mane.

    2 Q. Okay. That's fine.

    3 Now, did Captain Mane indicate to you who his

    4 commander was?

    5 A. He spoke to me through his interpreter,

    6 called Mickey, and he said his commander had a code

    7 name over the radio and was called Stalin; at least his

    8 code name over the radio was Stalin.

    9 Q. As in Joseph Stalin.

    10 A. As in Joseph Stalin, yes.

    11 Q. And this was some kind of military code name

    12 that was being used.

    13 A. That he used over my radio.

    14 Q. Did you ever see this individual, Stalin?

    15 A. Yes, I had seen him before.

    16 Q. And how did you know that the man that you

    17 saw was Stalin?

    18 A. Because Mane described him to me as a little

    19 man with glasses on, moustache, and he described him in

    20 a fashion that I recognised him. I knew that it was

    21 the same person.

    22 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could then be

    23 shown Exhibits 73 and 74.

    24 Q. Can you recognise anybody on that

    25 photograph? And again this is from the video that we

  67. 1 viewed prior to you testifying.

    2 A. The person on the right-hand side, with the

    3 glasses on, that's the guy with the code name Stalin.

    4 MR. CAYLEY: So let the record show that the

    5 witness is indicating, on Prosecutor's Exhibit 73, that

    6 the individual on the far right of the photograph with

    7 a moustache and spectacles is the individual code-named

    8 Stalin.

    9 Then if the witness could be shown

    10 Prosecutor's Exhibit 74.

    11 Q. Do you recognise anybody on that photograph?

    12 A. This was the guy with the code name Stalin.

    13 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that, on

    14 Prosecutor's Exhibit 74, the individual who is furthest

    15 to the left, whose full face can be seen furthest to

    16 the left, wearing again either glasses or sunglasses,

    17 is the individual with the code name Stalin.

    18 Q. Do you recognise anybody else on that

    19 photograph?

    20 A. I recognise in the middle General Mladic and

    21 two soldiers or three soldiers that were his bodyguards

    22 during the visits, and this, of course, is General

    23 Mladic.

    24 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the

    25 witness is indicating, on Prosecutor's Exhibit 74, that

  68. 1 the individual in the foreground and centre of the

    2 photograph is General Mladic and that the three

    3 soldiers to his right, one of whom is partially blocked

    4 by Mladic's own figure, are bodyguards of Mladic who

    5 accompanied him at the time.

    6 Q. Thank you, Captain van Duijn.

    7 Now, are you aware, were you aware at the

    8 time, who Stalin was subordinated to, who the

    9 commanding officer of Stalin was at the time?

    10 A. I recall that I'd seen the soldier with the

    11 code name Stalin before, together with Major Nikolic.

    12 It looked to me that Major Nikolic was the commander of

    13 the guy named Stalin because Major Nikolic was in the

    14 middle of the road, Stalin was next to him, more or

    15 less explaining -- I couldn't understand what they were

    16 talking about because they were talking Serbo-Croat --

    17 but it really looked to me like Major Nikolic was more

    18 or less inspecting what was going on there and Stalin

    19 was telling him about everything that happened.

    20 Q. So it had the appearance to you of a superior

    21 and subordinate relationship.

    22 A. Yes, that's true.

    23 Q. Nikolic being the superior --

    24 A. Stalin being the subordinate.

    25 Q. -- Stalin being the subordinate.

  69. 1 Now, you had conversations with Mane, that

    2 can be seen from the photograph. Do you recall the

    3 first conversation that you had with Mane?

    4 A. Yes. He first asked me if I was the

    5 commander of the UN troops over there, and I replied

    6 that I was; he said that he was the commander, the

    7 local commander, over there from the Serb forces. And

    8 he said, "Well, the following is going to happen: The

    9 refugees are going away by bus, being transported to

    10 Tuzla," and there was no discussion about that. Then

    11 he said, "Well, there are two options: The first

    12 option is that you leave here with all the UN troops,

    13 go back to your compound, and we'll take care of

    14 transporting our own way; and the second option is that

    15 you stay here and stay at this location." And I told

    16 him that we would stay and stand in the middle, and

    17 then reported to our operations room and to Major

    18 Franken.

    19 Q. Captain van Duijn, why did you decide to stay

    20 with some of the soldiers from your platoon?

    21 A. Because I thought that was the best possible

    22 way to stand in between the Serb and the Muslim people,

    23 the Serb soldiers and the Muslim refugees, to try and

    24 help the refugees as much as we could.

    25 Later on, Major Franken also gave me the

  70. 1 order to give as much humanitarian aid to the refugees

    2 as possible, and the only way that we could do that was

    3 to literally stand in the middle of the Serb soldiers

    4 and the Muslim refugees. It was my vision that if we

    5 would leave over there, we could not see what would

    6 happen, and being there, literally in the middle, gave

    7 us a chance to do something.

    8 Q. At this time, can you recall the condition of

    9 the refugees in the immediate vicinity of your

    10 location?

    11 A. They were very scared, panicked; tried to get

    12 to the UN compound, which at that point was close to

    13 the refugees, because a lot of the refugees were

    14 already on the compound. So they tried to move to the

    15 north. They were panicked, they were scared, and they

    16 were pressing each other against the soldiers, my

    17 soldiers, the UN soldiers, that tried to calm them.

    18 People that fell were trampled on. It was a chaotic

    19 situation.

    20 Q. Now, you were a very young officer at the

    21 time. How did you feel about the situation?

    22 A. It was a terrible scene to be in. I remember

    23 that I was speaking to another soldier that was next to

    24 me, and before I went to Bosnia I'd seen two films and

    25 that really reminded me of those two films, and I had

  71. 1 the idea that I was in the middle of a scene that was

    2 sort of a combination between the film "Sophie's

    3 Choice" and "Schindler's List," and it was a real

    4 strange feeling to be in the middle of that.

    5 Q. Do you remember the next significant thing

    6 that actually happened that day?

    7 A. There was a visit of General Mladic. He came

    8 with a group of other officers, I guess, because they

    9 also had pistols on their hips and were in uniform.

    10 Q. Do you recall how many other officers were in

    11 the group around General Mladic?

    12 A. I think there was a number of about eight or

    13 ten people that were together with General Mladic.

    14 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown

    15 Prosecutor's Exhibit 28/4.

    16 Q. Now, I showed you a series of photographs

    17 prior to your testimony, and this is one that you

    18 recognised. Do you recognise any individuals on that

    19 photograph?

    20 A. I recognise this man [indicates] on the

    21 right-hand side.

    22 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the

    23 witness has identified the man with the sort of orange

    24 face and the grey hair on Prosecutor's Exhibit 28/4.

    25 Q. Did you know at the time what that individual

  72. 1 was called?

    2 A. No, I didn't know his name.

    3 Q. And with whom did you see that individual?

    4 A. I saw him together with General Mladic.

    5 Q. Do you recall, can you remember, any of the

    6 other officers that were with General Mladic at the

    7 time?

    8 A. No, I can't remember.

    9 Q. Can you tell the Judges what you saw General

    10 Mladic doing when he arrived at Potocari?

    11 A. It looked to me like, more or less, the

    12 making of a propaganda film. He was giving out candy

    13 and cans with drinks in them, and there was a film crew

    14 filming it all.

    15 Q. Do you recall any other VRS officers, not

    16 those necessarily in that group, who you spoke with

    17 that day?

    18 A. I spoke with a person, also in military

    19 uniform, and when I asked him about his rank and name,

    20 he said that he was a colonel named Jankovic, and he

    21 told me that he was a logistics officer.

    22 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown

    23 tab 11 of Prosecutor's Exhibit 28, which is, I think,

    24 28/13 and 28/13.1.

    25 Q. These, again, are photographs that I've shown

  73. 1 you previously, and you identified this gentleman.

    2 While we're waiting for the photograph,

    3 Jankovic stated to you that he was a logistics

    4 officer.

    5 A. That's what he said, yes.

    6 Q. Can you identify the individuals on that

    7 photograph?

    8 A. To the left is General Mladic and to the

    9 right is the person that said he was Colonel Jankovic.

    10 Q. Can you point to Colonel Jankovic with the

    11 pointer.

    12 MR. CAYLEY: So let the record show that the

    13 witness has identified the individual on the right of

    14 the photograph with brown hair, which is Prosecutor's

    15 Exhibit 28/13, as being Colonel Jankovic, the

    16 individual who introduced himself as a logistics

    17 officer.

    18 Q. Was Jankovic dressed like that at the time

    19 that you met him?

    20 A. He was dressed in uniform, yes.

    21 Q. What did Jankovic appear to be doing when you

    22 saw him?

    23 A. He was walking around, and it looked to me

    24 like he was just looking, more or less inspecting if

    25 everything went in the fashion he wanted it.

  74. 1 Q. Did you speak to him subsequently that day or

    2 the next day?

    3 A. I spoke to him a few times. I saw him about

    4 four or five times in a short period of time. And

    5 after that, a few days later, after the whole tragedy

    6 had taken place, and the day before we left to go back

    7 to Zagreb, I saw him together with Colonel Karremans

    8 and Major Franken on the UN base.

    9 Q. How did you communicate with him?

    10 A. In English. He spoke very good English.

    11 Q. What did he say to you on the occasions that

    12 you met with him?

    13 A. At first, I just asked him, because I was

    14 curious what sort of a soldier he was and what rank he

    15 had, and he spoke about his factory he had in

    16 Belgrade. He said that he had fought in the war

    17 earlier on, somewhere in 1992, and that after that he

    18 had been occupied with his company in Belgrade. And he

    19 joined the army now again and was there as a logistics

    20 officer.

    21 Q. What did you subsequently speak about with

    22 him?

    23 A. We spoke about the terrible situation over

    24 there, and he said, "Well, at least you're still

    25 alive." It was a very strange way that he said that to

  75. 1 me. And in the periods that I saw him later on, he

    2 would just point at me and say, "Well, Porucnik," which

    3 means first lieutenant, "I see that you're still

    4 alive."

    5 Q. So every time he saw you after this, he would

    6 greet you with that phrase.

    7 A. Yes, that very strange phrase.

    8 Q. Now, I think later that day, General Mladic

    9 returned, or at least you saw him return. Can you

    10 describe to the Judges what you saw him do on that

    11 occasion, on the second occasion that you saw him?

    12 A. He came up to me and he wanted to speak to

    13 me, he wanted to speak to the commander there, which I

    14 was at that period of time. He spoke through his

    15 interpreter or through -- my interpreter was a Muslim

    16 refugee that was normally attached to the Bravo Company

    17 but for that period of time was my translator, and he

    18 spoke to a few of my soldiers as well.

    19 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, the time is now

    20 2.30. Do you wish to break now?

    21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

    22 Mr. Cayley. So a break until tomorrow, half past

    23 nine.

    24 Captain, we need to adjourn now, this is

    25 according to our schedule, so that you will resume your

  76. 1 testimony tomorrow. We hope we are not causing you any

    2 inconvenience with this, but that is how we work.

    3 Therefore, we shall adjourn until tomorrow,

    4 at half past nine, 9.30. Thank you.

    5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

    6 2.30 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

    7 the 31st day of March, 2000, at

    8 9.30 a.m.