1 Friday, 31 March 2000
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
5 [The accused entered court]
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good
7 morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning to our
8 sound engineers -- Can the interpreters hear me? Yes,
9 they can -- counsel for the Prosecution, the Defence,
10 General Krstic. We shall today be resuming the case.
11 For the record, we have the same situation
12 today as yesterday; that is, the witness, who is right
13 in the courtroom, will continue his testimony.
14 Good morning, Witness H [sic]. You will now
15 continue to answer questions put to you by the
16 Prosecution. Thank you.
17 WITNESS: LEENDERT VAN DUIJN [Resumed]
18 MR. CAYLEY: Good morning, Mr. President,
19 Judge Riad, my learned friends for the Defence.
20 Examined by Mr. Cayley: [Cont'd]
21 Q. Captain van Duijn, just to remind you that
22 you are under the solemn oath that you were under
23 yesterday to speak the truth.
24 I'll quickly refresh your memory as to where
25 you were yesterday. You had spoken about
1 General Mladic arriving in Potocari and essentially, in
2 your words, mounting a propaganda exercise. We were
3 then just about to move to General Mladic's second
4 visit that you recalled, and I'd like you to explain to
5 the Judges what happened on that occasion.
6 A. He came up to me and wanted to speak to the
7 UN commander at that time at that position, and that
8 was me, of course. And he spoke to me through my
9 interpreter, the Muslim interpreter that was originally
10 based with Bravo Company, and we spoke about a lot of
11 things that had nothing to do with what happened that
12 day, about soccer and other cases.
13 At one point, he mentioned about the
14 multiracial composition of my unit that was there.
15 There were a few soldiers that were Negroes that were
16 on that position, and he stated, through my Muslim
17 interpreter, that in ten years, the Bosnian Serb army
18 would be in Holland to protect the Dutch from the
19 Muslims. And I said I didn't agree with him, also
20 through the Muslim interpreter, of course.
21 Later on, he started to intimidate the Muslim
22 interpreter, because he asked me who he was and why he
23 was there. I explained to General Mladic that he was
24 an interpreter and he had a UN pass, and at that point
25 he started to intimidate the Muslim interpreter.
1 Q. Do you remember approximately what time this
3 A. It must have been about 2.00 or 3.00 in the
5 Q. And this was on the 12th of July, 1995?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, you mentioned that he started to
8 intimidate the Muslim interpreter. Can you tell the
9 Judges what happened to the Muslim interpreter?
10 A. General Mladic put his arm around him and he
11 started to speak to me through the interpreter, telling
12 that -- he played a sort of role-play, saying that the
13 interpreter was a Serb, that he was a good guy, and
14 that General Mladic was a Muslim, and he said, "Well,
15 I'm a Muslim. I only think about making babies, but
16 this guy, this interpreter is a Serb, he's a good
17 fellow and I like him." And he put his arm around him
18 and he practically crushed him into his own body.
19 Later on, the UN pass that was given to the
20 interpreter was taken away by the bodyguards of
21 General Mladic, and I had to speak to the bodyguards to
22 get it back. The interpreter was very scared, of
23 course, because that was his only pass that he had that
24 would practically ensure him of not being taken away
25 like the other men but could stay with the UN forces.
1 Q. How long did General Mladic spend at your
2 position in Potocari, do you recall?
3 A. He must have been there for about an hour, I
4 think. The conversation I had with him was maybe 15
5 minutes, 20 minutes, but he stayed there more in the
6 background, speaking to Serb soldiers.
7 Q. Now, whilst General Mladic was there, the
8 transportation process was continuing; is that correct?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. Do you recall any particular incident, while
11 General Mladic was present, in connection with the
12 transportation of the Muslims out of Potocari?
13 A. At one point, there was a woman that was
14 panicking, and she was really almost in a state of
15 hysteria. So we got her out of the big group of
16 refugees and, through the interpreter, asked what was
17 going on with her. She said that her children, five
18 children, were already loaded on a lorry and she had
19 lost them in the big chaos, and she now saw them in the
20 back of that truck, already starting to drive away from
21 where she was.
22 Through the interpreter that became clear to
23 me, and I planned to get her on the truck that was
24 already moving. The situation was that we had the
25 refugees -- we were there in between the refugees and
1 the Serbs, and practically no movement of UN soldiers
2 was from our location towards the buses, because in
3 between there were the Serb soldiers.
4 So I asked the interpreter, I said, "Well,
5 can you help me?" Because General Mladic was in
6 between talking to that Serb soldier. And I said, "Go
7 over to General Mladic, who is the highest in command,
8 over there, explain to him what I'm doing, because I'm
9 taking that woman up to that lorry now, and I don't
10 know what the Serb soldiers will do, how they will
11 react if I cross that, more or less, border." I didn't
12 ask for his reaction. I took the woman, carried her
13 to -- running towards the lorry, and when I put her on
14 the lorry together with the children, and I turned
15 around, I saw that the interpreter had gone over to
16 General Mladic and tried to explain. So he did what I
17 had asked him to do.
18 So I went up to General Mladic, and at that
19 point General Mladic was very, very mad, and he told
20 me, also through the interpreter, that if I would ever
21 send the interpreter up to General Mladic without it
22 being clear that he was interpreting for me, then he
23 would shoot him right there on the spot. At that
24 point, the interpreter was so scared, and he was
25 shivering all over, so I had him escorted back to the
1 UN Compound.
2 Q. Did General Mladic say to you or explain to
3 you why he would shoot the interpreter?
4 A. Just for speaking to him as a Muslim
5 interpreter. Just for speaking to him without it being
6 clear that he was interpreting for me.
7 Q. Do you recall how much longer General Mladic
8 stayed in Potocari?
9 A. No. I haven't seen him from that moment on.
10 Q. Now, after General Mladic left or indeed went
11 out of your sight, do you recall what you saw
12 commencing in and around Potocari?
13 A. As I explained, the situation was that we
14 tried to calm the Muslim refugees; that, through Mane,
15 it would be clear to me how many buses there were and
16 how many people could go onto the bus, and then we
17 would leave, would let them leave in little groups so
18 that they wouldn't trample each other by rushing to the
19 buses. So we had a little control about the buses so
20 that there wouldn't be any overcrowding of the buses
21 that happened in the beginning.
22 Q. Now, the groups that were going towards the
23 buses, they consisted of women and children; or men,
24 women, and children. Do you recall?
25 A. In the beginning, men, women, and children,
1 but on the first day I noticed that about 50 meters
2 behind where the UN soldiers were and where I was, men
3 were sitting in a lawn, front lawn of a house, a small
4 house that was near the factory sites.
5 And I asked Mane, who was in charge there of
6 the Serb soldiers, because it was clear to me that they
7 were selecting the men out, why he had done that. And
8 he said, "Well, we will bring them over to Bratunac and
9 we will have a list of war criminals, Muslim war
10 criminals, and we want to compare the men we have here,
11 the names of those men, to the list we have of war
12 criminals. And if there are war criminals, we will
13 send them to a court; and if they are not, if they're
14 civilians, we will send them on with the normal convoys
15 towards Tuzla."
16 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown
17 Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/2, which I actually believe, I
18 think, is my copy, because the Court copy was marked.
19 Q. While the registrar is finding that exhibit,
20 how long did those men stay on that stretch of lawn
21 outside those houses?
22 A. On the first day, that was the first day, so
23 that was the place where they were brought to. They
24 stayed there the rest of the day, until the evening,
25 when all of the convoys and deportation was stopped,
1 and then were brought -- or taken away by a lorry. I
2 don't know where they brought them. I could see from
3 about a hundred meters distance that they were put into
4 a lorry and were taken away.
5 Q. Now, if you can recall, Captain van Duijn,
6 the location where you saw these men on the 12th of
8 A. It was a house in this neighbourhood
10 Q. If you could leave your pointer there.
11 MR. CAYLEY: And the witness is pointing
12 to -- I think there are two small houses under that
13 pointer, as one looks at the photograph, to the right
14 of the road, passing north/south in the photograph and
15 just beneath the point of the arrow marking the Zinc
16 Factory, perhaps two centimeters below the point of the
17 arrow which marks the Zinc Factory.
18 Q. Thank you, Captain van Duijn.
19 Can you recall from your memory at what stage
20 the transport of Muslims ceased on the 12th of July?
21 A. It was the beginning of the evening, about
22 6.00 in the evening, I think 6.00 or 7.00 in the
23 evening, just before it became dark.
24 Q. Did you speak with Mane again that evening?
25 A. He said that of course the deportation
1 stopped, the convoy stopped, the buses wouldn't come,
2 until the next morning; that he and his soldiers would
3 retreat to Bratunac to go and celebrate; and that he
4 wanted us to clear the road, because a lot of refugees
5 were still on the road, on the asphalt road, and he
6 wanted us to clear it of refugees because they wanted
7 to use, or other units would use that road to move
8 troops to the south.
9 Q. Now, you say that he stated to you that he
10 wanted the road cleared because they wanted to use --
11 or other units would use the road to move troops
12 south. Which troops are you referring to?
13 A. I don't know what troops they were.
14 Q. Are you referring to Bosnian Serb soldiers?
15 A. Bosnian Serb soldiers, yes.
16 Q. Do you recall anything else of significance
17 from your memory that actually happened on that day, on
18 the 12th of July?
19 A. On the day itself or in the evening?
20 Q. In the evening. In the evening.
21 A. When I returned, because I had been relieved
22 by Lieutenant Koster for that night -- he would stay
23 there in the midst of the refugees, together with other
24 soldiers -- I myself was of course real tired, coming
25 from the blocking position, and after that day, so I
1 tried to get some rest, went back to the UN Compound
2 and of course report what had happened that day to my
4 And when I went over to the UN Compound, I
5 saw a roll-call taking place of Serb soldiers, I
6 presume, because I saw the little man with code-name
7 Stalin standing in front of a unit of more or less
8 company size, between the location I had been earlier
9 and the UN Compound.
10 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown
11 Prosecutor's Exhibit 73. You can use this copy, and
12 then if you just give it straight back to me, then we
13 can move more quickly.
14 Q. Could you just indicate to the Judges,
15 because you've mentioned him today and we mentioned him
16 yesterday, if you could just point to the individual
17 that you identified as Stalin.
18 A. This man [indicates].
19 MR. CAYLEY: So the witness is indicating
20 again on that exhibit, Prosecutor's Exhibit 73, the
21 individual on the right-hand side of the photograph
22 with a moustache, wearing spectacles.
23 Thank you, Captain van Duijn. If I could
24 have that exhibit back. Thanks.
25 Q. Let's move to the next date, the 13th of
1 July. Do you remember approximately what time you rose
2 in the morning?
3 A. I rose about 5.00 in the morning, and after
4 seeing some soldiers that I wanted to accompany that
5 day, I -- it was about 6.00, half past 6.00, again at
6 the location where Lieutenant Koster was, and he told
7 me about the things that happened during the night.
8 And the plan was that I would take over from him at
9 that stage again.
10 Q. Is that the same location that you showed the
11 Judges yesterday on the aerial photograph?
12 A. It was a little bit more to the south,
13 because I had spoken to Lieutenant Koster on the
14 evening of the first day of the deportations, and it
15 was very difficult for us to try and keep the refugees
16 calm. So I spoke to him and I said, "Well, I think we
17 should make a sort of tunnel for the refugees to come
18 in with APCs, formed with APCs," so the distance we had
19 to cover with UN soldiers would be smaller, so we could
20 easily -- more easily could contain them and keep them
22 Q. Did Koster speak to you about what had
23 happened during the night?
24 A. He said that a few incidents had happened,
25 but the most memorable incidents were that a man had
1 hung himself in the factory and they had to get the
2 body down from the place where he had hung himself; and
3 that another man had injured himself in total panic,
4 hitting himself with a rock on his head, trying to
5 become injured so he could be taken up to the hospital
6 so he would be transported with the sick people.
7 Q. Can you tell the Judges what you recall from
8 when you took over from Koster, what happened that
10 A. Because the Serb soldiers and Mane were not
11 there at that time, he had said to me that he would be
12 there about 8.00 or somewhere in the vicinity of that
13 time. But the bus drivers and the buses were already
14 there, so I decided to keep the families together and
15 to send everyone on the bus with the groups they
16 wanted. We already started, because the buses and the
17 bus drivers knew where they had to drive, because they
18 had been there the day before as well. We already
19 started the transports for about an hour or something.
20 And then the Serbs came and Mane took over again. And
21 from that moment on, the men were singled out again.
22 Q. What time did the Bosnian Serb army return to
23 Potocari? Do you recall approximately?
24 A. I think it must be between 8.00 and 8.30 in
25 the morning.
1 Q. Did the transportation process go on all day
3 A. It ended about 4.00, because by then all of
4 the people of the big group of refugees had left by
5 then, about 4.00 in the afternoon.
6 Q. Can you describe the scene to the Judges
7 after all of the refugees had been transported out of
8 Potocari, what you saw in and around the UN compound
9 and indeed the factory and bus sites.
10 A. The factory sites were covered with goods
11 that people had tried to take with them: bags of
12 potatoes, blankets, all of the things they had tried to
13 take with them as they fled. All the factory sites
14 were covered in personal belongings as well, even
15 pictures and stuff like that that they had left behind.
16 Q. Were there any Muslims left at all?
17 A. The men, on the second day, when they were
18 singled out, were taken up to a house we called the
19 White House, almost opposite of the entrance of the UN
20 Compound in Potocari.
21 Q. If I can interrupt, Captain van Duijn?
22 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown
23 Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/17.
24 Q. Now, this is a photograph that I showed, I
25 think, the day before yesterday. Do you recognise this
2 A. This is the White House, only in the time we
3 were there, there were much more trees and bushes that
4 more or less covered the front lawn of that White
6 Q. Can you tell the Judges what you saw at the
7 White House?
8 A. The White House itself was packed with men of
9 different ages, and there were a few refugees in front
10 of the house but most of them were packed inside. I
11 only stayed standing in front of the White House and
12 having a peek inside, but I didn't go to the back. So
13 I don't know what was there on the back side of the
15 Q. Can you describe to the Judges the appearance
16 of those men that you saw at the White House?
17 A. They were packed together, and because it was
18 very warm, they were sweating. They were very, very
19 scared. Some of them were shivering. Some of the men
20 were speaking themselves, but you could easily see that
21 they were very, very scared.
22 Q. Did you see anything else at the White House
23 apart from these men that were packed inside and
24 outside the White House?
25 A. When I came up to the White House, and as you
1 can see, in the front of the White House there is a
2 large lawn, it was covered totally with personal
3 belongings, with pictures, holiday snapshots, as well
4 as passports and other identity papers.
5 Q. Now, after you'd seen this, did you speak to
6 anybody about what you'd seen at the White House?
7 A. I spoke to Mane again, because the first day
8 of the deportations when I noticed that the men were
9 singled out I asked him why, and he gave me the
10 explanation of them wanting to distinguish who was a
11 war criminal and who was not. So I asked him again,
12 because I saw all the passports and identity papers,
13 why they couldn't take them with them, because that was
14 in front of the house and not on the men itself. He
15 said, "Well, they don't need the stuff that's there.
16 They don't need it any more." Then I asked him how he
17 could explain the fact that if they wanted to know who
18 was a war criminal and who was not they could do that
19 without identity papers, because if they would give a
20 false name, it wouldn't be on the list of war
21 criminals, and the person would go free and join the
22 rest of the convoy to Tuzla. Then he more or less
23 laughed at me and said, "Well, don't make such a fuss
24 out of it. They just don't need their passports any
1 Q. What did you think at that point,
2 Captain van Duijn?
3 A. I realised that the story he had told me
4 before was not true any more, or hadn't been true at
5 all, and at that moment, I realised that something bad
6 was going to happen to the men, and the only thing I
7 can recollect now is I thought about the things I had
8 seen before on television, before I went to Bosnia,
9 about concentration camps and men being sent to camps
10 like that. At least I knew that they were not going to
11 be sent with a convoy when they were not on the list.
12 They would just be sent on a convoy to Tuzla, and that
13 wasn't true at all.
14 Q. Now, in terms of the transportation process
15 that you saw taking place, is there any image or memory
16 that remains with you above any other after these years
17 have passed?
18 A. There is an incident of a family that
19 consisted of about six to eight women, from an old
20 woman about in her 60s, 70s until a young girl about 12
21 years old, I think, and you could see that there were
22 different generations. With that family there was only
23 one man, and he was about 45 to 50 years old, but he
24 looked fit and in shape. During the periods of the
25 deportations, every time a man was singled out because
1 of Mane telling me about they wanted to get to the
2 warriors and the war criminals, whenever a man was
3 singled out or a boy was singled out that was
4 practically too old or too young to be a soldier, I
5 spoke to Mane and protested with him. I said, "Well,
6 you can't be serious. That can't be a soldier. That
7 can't be a war criminal," and every time I protested,
8 he would let them go with their families.
9 During the incident, I told you about the
10 family that consisted of almost practically all women,
11 and the one man, I didn't protest because he was the
12 classical borderline case, where you could easily tell
13 that he could be a soldier or he was just on the
14 borderline, and I made the decision at that point not
15 to protest and he was singled out.
16 I know, of course, that if I would have
17 protested with every man that was singled out, no one
18 could stay with his family, and every man was singled
19 out. Every boy was singled out. But I had to make a
20 decision at that time, and I made the decision not to
21 protest, and the man was singled out, and I think that
22 will stay with me the rest of my life, that decision.
23 Q. Let's now, very briefly, go back to April of
24 1995, and I think at that point you were a commander on
25 two observation posts, were you not?
1 A. Yes, I was.
2 Q. Can you just tell the Judges which
3 observation posts those were?
4 A. It was in the northeast, Sector 4 of the
5 enclave. They were Observation Posts Quebec and
7 Q. I think there were Serb forces opposite your
8 observation posts, and could you very briefly tell the
9 Judges what you observed in April 1995 that happened
10 with those Serb forces, what changes you saw taking
12 A. We had good contact with OP Romeo with the
13 soldiers that were stationed near there, about 200
14 metres from the location of OP Romeo. We called that
15 the Dragan bunker, named after the first Serb commander
16 that was stationed there. And we could see from March,
17 April on, that the Serb forces that were there in the
18 beginning consisted of old men, shabby clothes, with
19 only handguns, and they were quite nice to my soldiers
20 that were on OP Romeo.
21 And from March, April on, there were
22 reinforcements taking place. Every Tuesday there would
23 come a bus. First, January, February, it was to
24 relieve and replace the men that were inside the
25 bunker, but from March, April on, there would come
1 reinforcements, and the men that were there stayed
2 there and they were only brought in new troops. And
3 the troops that were brought in were much better
4 uniformed, polished their shoes, maintained their
5 weapons, did some maintenance, and you could see that
6 there was more or less a sort of build-up, and we
7 reported it to our commanders.
8 Q. Very briefly, if you could talk about Muslim
9 forces within the enclave. If you could tell the
10 Judges what you observed from your position at those
11 two observation posts of Muslim forces within the
13 A. I had a lot of contact with the second in
14 command. He told me that he was from the Northern
15 Brigade of the Muslims. His name was Nasir Sabanovic,
16 and he was the local commander for my two observation
17 posts from the Muslim forces. They did a lot of work
18 to make trenches and bunkers near the observation posts
19 or just behind my observation post. Nasir Sabanovic --
20 at that time I was on OP Quebec myself -- came up to
21 the OP to tell me what he was thinking about the
22 situation and also told me about his patrols that he
23 went on, accompanied by two or three other Muslim
24 soldiers, when he was going out of the enclave into
25 Serb territory to do reconnaissance patrols or, as he
1 stated to me, that he placed mines on the roads towards
2 the enclave.
3 Q. From your location, how many Muslim soldiers
4 did you see at your two observation posts?
5 A. In the vicinity of the two OPs that I was at,
6 there must have been about 50 to 100 Muslim soldiers in
7 that vicinity in the later period.
8 Q. How were they armed?
9 A. They were armed with handguns, with
10 Kalashnikovs, and 1 out of 10 or 1 out of 15 had a
11 rocket launcher of some sort.
12 Q. Did he also report to you any risk that there
13 was to your two observation posts from Bosnian Serb
15 A. He warned me about that because of the
16 location of my OPs were the closest to Serb positions
17 in the enclave, he said that there was a plan of the
18 Serbs to take over the two OPs, two of my OPs, and he
19 said that through his patrols he had stationed mines
20 and placed mines. So the initial threat was now gone,
21 but he was still afraid of the Serbs taking over my
23 Q. Which indeed happened eventually.
24 A. Later on, yes. Eventually.
25 Q. Now, let's just go back to what you saw
1 taking place in July of 1995, and this is the final
2 questions that I have for you.
3 You are a Captain in the Dutch army. Do you
4 regularly go on military training exercises?
5 A. I went on a lot of exercises throughout my
7 Q. At what levels have you gone on exercise? At
8 what level of military formation have you been on
10 A. Platoon, company, battalion, and even big
11 brigade or divisional exercises in Denmark or Germany
12 or Greece.
13 Q. Now, when you look back at what you saw
14 taking place in the Srebrenica enclave in July of 1995,
15 can you estimate, from your experience, at what level
16 that operation was taking place, now that you look
18 A. Of course, I've read about what had taken
19 place and read about the number of Serb soldiers that
20 were involved in their whole operation, but when you
21 look at the piece of terrain, a very difficult part of
22 terrain with only one road that's covered with asphalt,
23 my opinion is that it should be at least on a
24 divisional level.
25 Q. From your recollection --
1 A. By NATO standards, of course.
2 Q. Yes, by NATO standards. And by that you mean
3 the way NATO addresses particular military formations,
4 how it labels those formations?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. From your recollection, do you remember what
7 the higher military formation was in the Bosnian Serb
8 army that was responsible for the area of the
9 Srebrenica enclave?
10 A. I remember from the beginning on that there
11 was a unit called the Drina Wolves or the Drina Corps
12 north of the enclave, and according to the
13 conversations I had with Mane, who also told me that he
14 was, with his military police unit, sort of a liaison
15 or a part of the Drina Wolves, I suspected that that
16 was the Drina Wolves that were there.
17 Q. Now, you say the Drina Wolves, which was a
18 unit, but I'm actually interested in the larger
19 formation, and you mentioned the Drina Corps. Which
20 was the larger military formation that was in the
22 A. I think the Drina Corps.
23 Q. And that's now, as you can remember?
24 A. Yes, because the nickname used for the Drina
25 Corps was the Drina Wolves, as far as I know. So when
1 I mention the Drina Wolves, I mean the Drina Corps and
3 Q. Okay. Thank you very much indeed,
4 Captain van Duijn.
5 MR. CAYLEY: I have no further questions,
6 Mr. President. I can offer the witness for
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
9 very much, Mr. Cayley.
10 Mr. Petrusic, Witness H [sic], you're now
11 going to answer questions that will be put to you by
12 Mr. Petrusic, who is representing General Krstic.
13 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning,
14 Your Honours; good morning colleagues from the
16 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic:
17 Q. Good morning, Captain. After the 13th of
18 July, how long did you and your unit stay in the base,
19 that is, in Potocari?
20 A. We stayed for a couple of more days, and I
21 believe we returned to Zagreb on the 20th of July. I
22 don't know the exact date any more.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
24 Mr. Petrusic, I'm very sorry to interrupt you, but I
25 can see in the transcript that we -- that somebody
1 referred to Witness H, but the witness in question is
2 Captain van Duijn and not Witness H. I can see this in
3 line 6 on page 22, and this will have to be corrected.
4 Sorry, Mr. Petrusic. You may continue now.
5 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. During that time, Captain, did you ever go to
8 A. No, not any more.
9 Q. In response to a question put to you by my
10 learned colleague Mr. Cayley, you said that there was a
11 unit that operated in the area of Srebrenica, a unit
12 which belonged to the VRS. Can you be more specific
13 and explain to us whether between the unit that you
14 referred to as Drina Wolves and the Drina Corps, as a
15 larger military unit, whether there was any smaller
16 unit between the two which would still belong to the
17 Drina Corps?
18 A. The only smaller unit I know of was the
19 military police unit where Captain Mane was in. That
20 was more or less attached to the Drina Wolves or Drina
22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
23 Captain van Duijn.
24 Your Honours, I do not have any further
25 questions for this witness.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,
2 Mr. Petrusic.
3 Mr. Cayley, do you have any further
4 additional questions?
5 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I don't have any
6 further questions. Thank you.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
8 very much.
9 Judge Riad.
10 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr.
12 Questioned by the Court:
13 JUDGE RIAD: Captain van Duijn, good morning?
14 A. Good morning.
15 JUDGE RIAD: I'll just ask you from the end,
16 because the learned Defence counsel asked if you had
17 been to Srebrenica. You mentioned yesterday, at the
18 beginning of your testimony, that you saw scenes in
19 Srebrenica, smoke coming from houses, shelling, and the
20 panic of the people. You saw it in Srebrenica itself
21 or you saw it from a distance?
22 A. When I -- at that period, I was in the
23 blocking position south of Srebrenica, and I saw it
24 taking place in the city itself.
25 JUDGE RIAD: The city itself.
1 A. From the south I could look down on the city
2 of Srebrenica, and I could see smoke coming from the
3 houses and houses being hit by shelling. To my
4 knowledge, the question that was asked by the Defence
5 was about the period after the fall.
6 JUDGE RIAD: I see. So you were close enough
7 to see all this.
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE RIAD: We have your description. It's
10 there, so I don't need to ask about it any more. You
11 referred to the conversation with Mane when he was
12 telling you that they needed these men for inquiry to
13 find out if they committed war crimes, and you told
14 them, "Then why don't they keep their papers because
15 the papers will be essential." He told you they do not
16 need their identity papers any more.
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE RIAD: Laughingly. So what was your
19 conclusion? What was the meaning of that for you as a
20 responsible UN officer?
21 A. I thought that at least the story that he had
22 told me about trying to single out the war criminals
23 was not true, so they would more or less treat all the
24 men in the same way, the same terrible way. At that
25 point, I radioed to the OPs room and said, "Well, we
1 have to transport. We have to send vehicles with
2 transportation of the men. We have to be there,
3 whatever happens."
4 I tried, myself, tried to get into the bus
5 but was pulled away by Mane and also at gunpoint from a
6 soldier that blocked the entrance of the bus.
7 JUDGE RIAD: At the end of your testimony,
8 you referred to the Drina Corps and the Drina Wolves,
9 which you consider it almost identical, but you didn't
10 mention much about them. What do you know about this
11 Drina Corps during this period when you were in charge?
12 A. I only know about the intel we had before we
13 went to Bosnia, where they said "Well, the Drina Corps
14 was stationed there." We must have been -- must have
15 had lessons about their insignias or ranks, but I don't
16 recollect that any more.
17 The only thing I was thinking about again was
18 during the conversation with Mane, when he told me that
19 he was part of the Drina Corps with his military unit.
20 So that's the things I know about.
21 JUDGE RIAD: He was part of the Drina Corps?
22 A. He said that he was more or less part of the
23 Drina Corps.
24 JUDGE RIAD: And Mr. Stalin, was he part of
25 the Drina Corps?
1 A. He was the commander of Mane, so I presume he
2 was also in the same unit.
3 JUDGE RIAD: Was there any actions which
4 justified calling him Mr. Stalin?
5 A. No. Not that I know of.
6 JUDGE RIAD: You know what Stalin did?
7 A. I know what Stalin did, yes.
8 JUDGE RIAD: Was it related to the kind of
9 actions which Stalin did?
10 A. I asked Mane what his real name was instead
11 of Stalin, but Mane didn't answer about it, he just
12 said his radio name or his radio nickname is Stalin and
13 that's the only thing I know about that man.
14 JUDGE RIAD: Was he high in grade,
15 Mr. Stalin?
16 A. He was higher than Mane and Mane told me he
17 was a Captain. So I presume that he was major or
18 something, but I don't know.
19 JUDGE RIAD: But he had higher authorities
20 than him?
21 A. He had higher authorities than Mane.
22 JUDGE RIAD: I mean Stalin was not the chief
23 of everything?
24 A. No.
25 JUDGE RIAD: Was not the man giving orders?
1 A. No.
2 JUDGE RIAD: Do you know who was giving
3 orders around the whole place apart from Mladic?
4 A. On my location, it was Mane, and because
5 Stalin, the man we'd nicknamed Stalin was the commander
6 of Mane, I presumed that Stalin was giving orders to
7 Mane about a larger area, but I don't know who was
8 giving orders in the whole of the enclave.
9 JUDGE RIAD: The part of the White House and
10 where you had this --
11 A. Where I was.
12 JUDGE RIAD: It was Stalin and Mane?
13 A. Yes.
14 JUDGE RIAD: And you met Mladic. Did you
15 ever meet General Krstic?
16 A. No, not that I recollect.
17 JUDGE RIAD: Nor see him around, see him
18 moving around, giving orders?
19 A. I don't remember that, no.
20 JUDGE RIAD: And when you were talking to
21 Mladic, this very significant conversation, which was
22 very unclear to me, you said at a certain moment he
23 hugged the interpreter and told you he was a Serb.
24 A. Yes. He was --
25 JUDGE RIAD: And then he would say he would
1 kill him?
2 A. He played a sort of a role-play at first with
3 the Muslim interpreter, embarrassing him by saying,
4 well -- and he hugged him like this with his arm around
5 him, crushing him to his own body, and he said, "Do you
6 know him?" And I said, "Well, of course I know him,
7 because he's my interpreter. He said, "No, he's not
8 your interpreter. He's not a Muslim. He's a Serb.
9 He's a good guy."
10 And Mladic, General Mladic, then pointed to
11 himself and he said, "Well, I am a Muslim, and I only
12 think about making babies, so I am a bastard. But this
13 guy is a good guy." So he pretended that the Muslim
14 was a Serb and he himself was a Muslim.
15 JUDGE RIAD: It was some kind of changing
17 A. Yes. Sort of a role-playing to --
18 JUDGE RIAD: And making fun, perhaps.
19 A. -- to embarrass the Muslim interpreter, who
20 was of course very scared.
21 JUDGE RIAD: And then he added that he would
22 be coming -- he would be defending Holland against the
23 Muslim invasion?
24 A. He saw a few of my soldiers sitting, and he
25 actually shook hands with him, and there were two white
1 soldiers and one Negro soldier. And then he said,
2 "Well, is he from Holland too?" And I explained to
3 him that we have a very multiracial society in
4 Holland. And then General Mladic said, "Well, that's
5 not good, and in ten years the Bosnian Muslim army will
6 be in Holland to protect you from the Muslims."
7 JUDGE RIAD: What did he mean by that?
8 A. That it was not good that Holland has a
9 multiracial society or something. I think that he
10 meant that.
11 JUDGE RIAD: He wanted ethnic cleansing in
12 Holland, or what?
13 A. Maybe. I don't know.
14 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
16 very much, Judge Riad.
17 Captain, I should also like to ask a few
18 questions of you. You spoke about the period of April
19 1995 and about the changes that you could observe from
20 your observation posts Q and R. You also spoke about
21 propaganda which was conducted by General Mladic. My
22 question in respect to that is as follows: Before
23 these events, had there been any propaganda by Serbs in
24 the enclave of Srebrenica, if you know anything about
1 A. No, not to my recollection. I don't know.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I should
3 like to ask you to clarify something with my next
4 question. Speaking of the Drina Corps and Drina
5 Wolves, is it one and the same thing or are we speaking
6 about two different things here? Because I thought
7 that you said that Drina Wolves was just a nickname for
8 the Drina Corps.
9 A. As far as I know, that Drina Wolves is a
10 nickname for Drina Corps, and so they -- the two mean
11 the same thing, in my knowledge.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 You also spoke about the White House. You said that
14 there had been a pile of documents, passports, personal
15 belongings of people who were in the White House. Do
16 you know, by any chance, what has happened with all
17 those things?
18 A. The days after all of the events had taken
19 place and we were back in the UN Compound, we could see
20 a lot of people coming from Bratunac and more or less
21 looting everything that was usable from all of the
22 houses, and we could also see that at the location of
23 the White House, stuff was brought together and burnt,
24 and that's when I remembered that possibly all of the
25 papers and all of the passports were burnt at that time
1 as well.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Who burnt
3 those documents and passports?
4 A. I don't know.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
6 very much, Captain. You have provided a lot of
7 information, lots of clarification for us.
8 Let me just verify if there are any documents
9 that we have to deal with.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Prosecution Exhibit 71,
11 72, 73, and 74.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What is the
13 situation with them?
14 Mr. Cayley.
15 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, those are a
16 series of four photographs that the witness recognised
17 and indeed provided foundation for their admission, so
18 I would apply to you for admission of those photographs
19 into evidence, please.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
21 Mr. Petrusic, or Mr. Visnjic, do you have any
23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,
24 we do not. At the same time, I should like to take
25 this opportunity -- I don't know whether you're now
1 going to have a break or if we're going to continue
2 with the proceedings, but after we have liberated the
3 witness, and before the next witness comes into the
4 courtroom, the Defence should like to have 10 or 15
5 minutes for two oral motions. So if we could kindly
6 have that opportunity, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, very
8 well. The documents have been admitted into evidence.
9 Captain van Duijn, thank you very much once
10 again on behalf of the International Criminal Tribunal
11 for coming here to testify. We understand that you
12 have been through quite an ordeal while you were still
13 very young, and I hope that you will continue to enjoy
14 this multiracial, multiethnical atmosphere in this
15 beautiful country of yours. Thank you very much. You
16 are now free to go.
17 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Well, let
20 me just tell you that we have something at around
21 11.00. We are not able to continue before 11.10. So I
22 think that it's much better to deal with the motions of
23 the Defence now, and then after that we will have a
24 break, and after the break we will continue with the
25 witness. We have this commitment around 11.00. If we
1 didn't have it, we could continue right away, but I
2 think that it's better in this situation to organise
3 our break around 11.00.
4 So let us hear Mr. Visnjic. Let us hear your
5 motion. You have the floor.
6 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
7 Mr. President. Our motions are in a way interrelated,
8 but we nevertheless separated them, and I shall now
9 submit the first one.
10 The Defence would like the Chamber to rule on
11 a problem which arose with regard to the statements of
12 the witnesses for the Prosecution, and to pass a ruling
13 to resolve the matter in a principled manner.
14 Before I do that, I should like to remind the
15 Chamber that both the Defence and the Prosecution for
16 the last two months before the beginning of the trial
17 had done a great deal of work regarding the disclosure
18 of evidence, so that on the eve of the trial, the
19 Defence found itself with a very large quantity of
20 evidence on its hands disclosed by the Prosecution, and
21 that includes also witness statements, both in English
22 and in Serbo-Croatian. Some of these statements we
23 also received after the trial began. For reasons that
24 Your Honours already know, the summaries of the witness
25 statements we received a week before the trial began.
1 On the other hand, the change of schedule of
2 the hearings, and of course we do understand that it is
3 a forced measure, has precluded the Defence to go
4 through this evidence and to verify all the evidence
5 that it received during the period that I have just
7 Needless to say, we're all trying to somehow
8 reconcile the principle of expediency with the
9 principle of the right to defence. And of late, some
10 witnesses, in their testimony before the Chamber, have
11 begun describing incidents which were not mentioned in
12 their earlier statements, and that is a completely new
13 situation now so far as the Defence counsel are
14 concerned, and we were unable to go through these
15 statements without a special investigation.
16 In light of all this, with regard to those
17 witnesses and the witnesses whose statements we
18 received within some 60 days before the beginning of
19 the trial, we should like to request the Chamber to
20 pass a ruling, to pass a decision, to allow the
21 Defence, as a matter of principle, to, subject to
22 supplementary investigation to be conducted by the
23 Defence, to therefore permit the Defence to call back a
24 certain witness -- of course, depending on whatever it
25 is established by the additional investigation -- to
1 call back the witness and have him give evidence
2 regarding the newly arisen facts.
3 So this is a principled motion, and we would,
4 needless to say, make such submissions in every
5 individual case, following, of course, following the
6 decision of the Chamber, if the Chamber makes such a
7 ruling as we are now asking you to do.
8 We are governed in this by Rule 65 ter (E)
9 (iv), Roman (iv), and 66(A)(ii) and Article 21, 4(A)
10 and (B), of the Statute of the Tribunal. That would be
11 our first motion.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As you
13 said, Mr. Visnjic, these applications are interrelated,
14 but you wanted to do it separately. Perhaps we could
15 indeed treat them severally; that is, you can hear the
16 Prosecutor's statements and then submit your
17 application. That is, also perhaps we could hear the
18 answer of the Prosecution, or rather the reaction of
19 the Prosecution.
20 What do you think, Mr. Harmon, about this
21 application? However, before that -- excuse me,
22 Mr. Harmon.
23 Before that, have you discussed the matter
24 with the Prosecution?
25 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] No,
1 Mr. President, not in this manner.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
3 But we have already established that Rule before any
4 motion is presented, but we should hear the opinion of
5 the other party and whether they agree or do not
6 agree. If they agree, very well; if not, we can try to
7 reach an agreement, an understanding. But we now have
8 to hear the view of the Prosecutor, and we also have a
9 break. And during the break, of course, it is also
10 possible to shed views on various matters. But since
11 the Chamber is not sitting in full, we shall not be
12 able to make a ruling now; that is, the Chamber has not
13 yet passed another decision which is also pending. We
14 shall therefore await for Judge Wald to return in order
15 to pass the decision, and we shall also need the
16 presence of Judge Wald to decide on this matter as
18 But we shall hear all this matter, and the
19 Chamber will then discuss. Today we cannot pass that
20 decision, because Judge Wald is not with us. But be
21 that as it may, I should like to hear the opinion of
22 Mr. Harmon in this respect.
23 MR. HARMON: Good morning, Mr. President;
24 good morning, Judge Riad; good morning, counsel.
25 My first observation is somewhat similar to
1 yours. If the second motion is related to the first
2 motion, I think perhaps they should be explored
3 together. There may be an interrelationship that might
4 affect the answer that I give. So if I could invite
5 counsel to give the second part of his motion, I'm
6 happy to respond to both.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
8 We appreciate your suggestion, Mr. Harmon.
9 Mr. Visnjic, I have to go back to what I just
10 said. It was perhaps preferable to hear both
11 applications so that we could address them both at the
12 same time. Could we hear your second application,
14 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,
15 we submitted a motion regarding the text of the
16 indictment, and we had certain objections against some
17 of the Prosecution evidence. You made a ruling in that
18 respect, and I am not commenting on that. However,
19 after that, the Registry gave us a certificate
20 explaining to us that the Serbian text of the
21 indictment, the one that was available to Mr. Petrusic
22 and me, was erroneously translated. It had to do with
23 our previous motion.
24 Article 18.4 of the Statute of the Tribunal
25 in this regard says that when the Prosecutor determines
1 that there is a prima facie case, he, that is, the
2 Prosecutor, shall prepare an indictment containing a
3 concise statement of the facts and the crime or crimes
4 with which the accused is charged under the Statute.
5 This means that every count in the indictment with
6 which the accused is charged should relate to specific
7 definitions in the Statute.
8 At the same time, Article 21 stipulates that
9 the accused shall be informed promptly and in detail in
10 a language which he understands.
11 At the same time, Rule 47(G) says that if the
12 accused does not understand either of the official
13 languages of the Tribunal, a translation of the
14 indictment in that language shall also be prepared in
15 the language that the accused understands and which
16 will make part or be included as part of each certified
17 copy of the indictment.
18 These provisions were adopted so that the
19 accused would be informed about the accusations, about
20 the charges made against him, and the case which he
21 needs to prepare in this defence, in the language which
22 he, that is, the accused, understands. These
23 provisions also impose certain limitations, certain
24 limits on the evidence to be used in the proceedings
25 before the Chamber.
1 Specifically, we are in a situation now where
2 the Prosecutors have done properly their part of the
3 job. The English and the French versions of the
4 indictment were handled in an appropriate manner, that
5 is, in a manner corresponding to the manner in which
6 the Prosecution prepared their evidence.
7 On the other hand, it is evident that for, if
8 I may call them technical reasons, the Defence has
9 been, and especially the defendant, has been in a way
10 denied one of its fundamental rights.
11 Mr. President, we looked at this situation
12 carefully and we believe that the accused has suffered
13 certain damage, that his rights have been prejudiced in
14 a certain way, and we thought about how this situation
15 could be remedied. The Defence believes that it could
16 be set right if additional time were allotted for the
17 investigation at the three sites which are called into
18 question due to this misunderstanding, I'll call it.
19 I do not wish to go now into the timetable,
20 into the time schedule of the Chamber, but the
21 application for the supplementary time I shall submit
22 when the Prosecution closes its case, since we already
23 announced such a possibility.
24 So basically, our second application is as
25 follows: We first wish to clarify the situation that
1 we are in now; and secondly, the Defence, subsequent to
2 its application for this additional investigation, the
3 Defence will apply to be allotted that additional time,
4 because if one reads the Serbo-Croatian text which we
5 had, it is quite clear that only the sites listed in
6 the indictment are the subject of the charges.
7 Thank you, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
9 I believe the time has now come for our break. Before
10 we make the break, I should like to hear who will be
11 our next witness. Are any protective measures sought,
12 what kind of protective measures? Mr. Harmon.
13 MR. HARMON: Our next witness will be Colonel
14 Kingori, and no protective measures will be sought.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
16 We will also use the break. As I told you, we have an
17 obligation around 11.00, so if we could make a
18 half-hour break, and the parties can meet now that the
19 Prosecutor knows the substance of the application or
20 applications of the Defence, you could perhaps meet and
21 discuss it before the next witness is called. You can
22 also talk to the Chamber and let us know what are your
23 views, whether you agree with that or not. If you do
24 not agree, then the Chamber will take the decision on
25 the motion, on the application of the Defence.
1 Now we shall have a break of half an hour,
2 that is, until 11.20, until twenty past eleven.
3 --- Recess taken at 10.50 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 11.40 a.m.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good
7 morning, Witness. Can you hear me?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
10 very much for coming here, Witness. Let us first hear
11 your solemn declaration.
12 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
16 very much. You may be seated now.
17 WITNESS: JOSEPH KINGORI
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Are you
20 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon,
22 we have somewhat changed the order of the day. I will
23 explain this later on.
24 Witness, thank you very much for coming to
25 testify here. You will begin by answering questions
1 put to you by counsel for the Prosecution, Mr. Harmon.
2 Mr. Harmon, you have the floor.
3 MR. HARMON: Thank you. If I could first ask
4 the usher to move the ELMO back so I can see the
5 witness, I would appreciate it. Thank you very much.
6 Examined by Mr. Harmon:
7 Q. Colonel Kingori, can you state your full name
8 and spell your last name for the record, please?
9 A. My name is Lieutenant-Colonel Joseph Gichuhi
10 Kingori. I spell the last name K-i-n-g-o-r-i.
11 Q. Colonel, you're a career military officer; is
12 that correct?
13 A. Yes, Your Honour.
14 Q. Your nationality is Kenyan?
15 A. Yes, Your Honour.
16 Q. How long have you been in the Kenyan Air
18 A. I joined the Kenyan Air Force in 1977. That
19 means by now I've been there for over 23 years.
20 Q. In 1994, Colonel Kingori, did you serve as a
21 United Nations military observer?
22 A. Yes, Your Honour.
23 Q. Did you serve in that capacity in the former
25 A. Yes, Your Honour.
1 Q. Can you describe to the Judges what is the
2 role of a United Nations military observer?
3 A. Physically, Your Honour, as a military
4 observer -- we used to call them U-N-M-O, that is
5 UNMOs -- you are there to monitor the violations to the
6 ceasefire agreement, and also you are supposed to be
7 neutral and bring the warring factions together. This
8 could have been by means of holding meetings with
9 either side and bringing whatever you're told from one
10 side to the other, so as to bring them as close as
11 possible to each other.
12 Also if there was anything to be conveyed
13 from the UN headquarters, it used to pass through us.
14 Likewise, we also had to convey whatever we get from
15 the warring factions to the UN headquarters through the
16 UNMO channels.
17 Q. Was your principal role as an UNMO to observe
18 materials that related to the military and related to
19 ceasefire violations?
20 A. Correct, Your Honour.
21 Q. Now, when you say that you had to report up
22 the normal chain, can you tell the Judges what was the
23 chain of your reporting?
24 A. Your Honour, the normal chain was from the
25 UNMO sector, that is, from where we were. We write the
1 report to the UNMO headquarters. Like in Srebrenica
2 our headquarters was in Tuzla. So we relayed the
3 message to Tuzla, and then they would relay the same to
4 the UNMO headquarters in Zagreb. Then that is formally
5 transmitted to the UN headquarters in New York.
6 Q. Thank you, Colonel. Now, can you explain to
7 the Judges the difference between an UNMO and a soldier
8 who was serving in the former Yugoslavia as a part of
10 A. Your Honour, as I said concerning UNMO, the
11 main roles was to monitor any violations to the
12 ceasefire agreement and also handle military matters.
13 Also you are to do some humanitarian issues, like
14 helping the aged, helping those who are injured,
15 analysing craters, that is, a crater analysis, in case
16 of any impacts using heavy weapons, and then send the
17 same to the headquarters to the channel that I gave
19 As for UNPROFOR, UNPROFOR, one thing to note
20 is that they were armed. They had arms and they were
21 staying in their battalion headquarters of various
22 outposts, as required in their observation posts and
23 all that.
24 The difference comes whereby we are not
25 supposed to use arms, because we did not have any. But
1 for the UNPROFOR, in case of anything, they could have
2 used arms. Hence the difference in that we, as almost
3 who are neutral -- we are supposed to be as neutral as
4 possible -- hence the requirement that we stay together
5 with the people in the village.
6 Q. So you were not -- when you were serving as
7 an UNMO officer, you were not at the same location and
8 quartered with UNPROFOR soldiers.
9 A. Yes, Your Honour. We were staying
11 Q. Now, did UNPROFOR have a different mandate
12 than you?
13 A. Yes, Your Honour, they had a different
15 Q. And are you able to describe their mandate as
16 opposed to your mandate?
17 A. Your Honour, their mandate was, as a
18 requirement of the UNPROFOR headquarters, to also
19 monitor, but relate the military activities to what
20 they had been told to do. That is, in case of any
21 activity from the warring factions, they could be
22 called in to act against the source of the fire. With
23 us, we were not.
24 Q. And did UNPROFOR have a principal role in
25 ensuring the provision of humanitarian aid to various
1 locations in the former Yugoslavia?
2 A. Repeat your question, sir.
3 Q. Was one of the principal roles, as opposed to
4 your role, which dealt almost exclusively with military
5 matters, was UNPROFOR's role different in that it was
6 to ensure, or attempt to ensure, that humanitarian aid
7 would flow to various parts in the former Yugoslavia?
8 A. Yes, Your Honour.
9 Q. Now, as an UNMO, how long did you serve in
10 the former Yugoslavia?
11 A. Your Honour, I stayed there for one year:
12 six months in East Krajina, that is, Sector 8; and then
13 four months in Srebrenica; and the remaining period was
14 in Sector south, in Knin.
15 Q. When did you receive your assignment to go to
17 A. This was towards the end of March, 1995.
18 Q. And when did you actually arrive in
20 A. Your Honour, I arrived in Srebrenica
21 somewhere around -- I think it was 4th or 5th. I'm not
22 very sure of the actual dates.
23 Q. The 4th or 5th of which month?
24 A. Of April 1995.
25 Q. And when you arrived, where were you
2 A. Your Honour, our headquarters was in the PTT
3 building in Srebrenica town.
4 Q. And when you arrived, how many other UNMOs
5 were also in Srebrenica?
6 A. Your Honour, there were five other UNMOs, and
7 with me that made six.
8 Q. Where were they there, the other UNMOs?
9 A. Your Honour, I can remember one was from
10 Canada, there was one from Ukraine, there was one from
11 Ghana, one from Holland, and the other one was from --
13 Q. Was the other from Brazil?
14 A. From Brazil, Your Honour.
15 Q. Now, at the time the enclave fell in July of
16 1995, how many UNMOs were in the Srebrenica enclave?
17 A. At this time, Your Honour, it's good to
18 inform you that for the UNMOs, we were to stay in one
19 place for one month, and then we go out for leave or
20 vacation for six days, then go back to continue with
21 the work.
22 At this time there were three UNMOs who were
23 supposed to be rotated, and one of them had stayed
24 there for I think four months or so. When his time
25 came, he was not allowed to leave the enclave.
1 The second one, who was supposed to leave the
2 following month, was not given clearance by the Serbs
3 to leave the enclave, and so the same happened to that
5 That means just before the war started, the
6 three were allowed to leave the enclave, but
7 unfortunately there was no replacement allowed to go
8 into the enclave by the Serbs. That means we were
9 left, only three of us: that is me, from Kenya; David
10 Tetteh from Ghana; and Andryk, from Holland. But it's
11 worth noting that by this time Andryk was admitted in
12 the DutchBat hospital, so we were only two in
14 Q. Now, as part of your duties, you had to get
15 to know contacts from the various warring factions;
16 isn't that correct?
17 A. That's correct, Your Honour.
18 Q. Now, I'd like to focus your attention on the
19 Bosnian Serb army. Could you tell the Judges who were
20 your points of contact from the Bosnian Serb side?
21 A. Your Honour, from the Bosnian Serbs -- that
22 is, we used to call them the BSA -- we were contacting
23 directly with Major Nikolic and at times with a colonel
24 called Vukovic, through our interpreter, who was called
25 Petar. And something to remember is that when we were
1 to meet with any other person, Major Nikolic was always
3 Q. Now, how did Major Nikolic dress?
4 A. Your Honour, Major Nikolic was always dressed
5 in combat dress; that is, camouflage, green; green
7 Q. And how was Colonel Vukovic dressed?
8 A. Your Honour, Colonel Vukovic was dressed the
9 same way.
10 Q. Can you tell the Judges what position you
11 believed Major Nikolic to have?
12 A. Your Honour, Major Nikolic was, as we were
13 told, in charge of one of the units, one of the
14 fighting units on the BSA side.
15 Q. And do you know what his higher military
16 formation was?
17 A. Your Honour, the way the BSA was organised
18 was that there were superior officers above him, and
19 all that chain went, as far as I know, up to General
20 Mladic level.
21 Q. And can you tell me about Colonel Vukovic.
22 How did he represent himself to you?
23 A. Your Honour, Colonel Vukovic was also in
24 charge of one of the brigades, which I do not remember
25 which one, and he was actually -- the way he was -- he
1 was actually senior to Major Nikolic, the way he
2 presented himself.
3 Q. So in your view, both Major Nikolic and
4 Colonel Vukovic were from brigades that were around the
5 Srebrenica enclave; is that correct?
6 A. That's correct, Your Honour.
7 Q. Now, I'd like you to describe to the Judges
8 the attitude that you observed in Colonel Vukovic in
9 respect of the Muslims who resided in the enclave.
10 A. Your Honour, Colonel Vukovic -- okay. I
11 don't know the right word, but he was a bit rough as
12 far as the Muslims were concerned, because even at one
13 of the meetings that we had, it was said that the
14 Muslims have to leave Srebrenica enclave in total. He
15 doesn't want to see them there. And if they are there,
16 he might end up killing one of them. He once said
17 that. So I can say he was a bit rough as far as the
18 Muslims are concerned.
19 Q. Now, let me turn your attention to the Muslim
20 side. Can you tell the Judges the representatives the
21 Muslim military formations that you had contact with?
22 A. Your Honour, we were contacting with the
23 chief of staff, who was, I remember, Ramiz Becirovic.
24 Then there was the intelligence officer, IO for short,
25 who was called Ekrem Salihovic or someone like that.
1 Then there was the mayor, the deputy mayor, and the
2 president of the opstina. Those are the main people
3 that we were contacting with.
4 Q. Based on your contacts with these Muslim
5 representatives, what was their attitude in respect of
6 the Serbs who were outside of the enclave? How did
7 they express themselves to you?
8 A. Your Honour, the Muslims, in whichever
9 meeting that we had, were always afraid of what the
10 Serbs around them would do or could do to them. They
11 were in constant fear that they might overrun the
12 enclave and maybe even harass them. But as far as
13 military activities, there was very little military
14 activities, only when they used to go to look for food
15 outside. They were always afraid that something could
16 happen to them on the way, because there was not enough
17 food in the enclave.
18 Q. You described a rough attitude of
19 Colonel Vukovic. Did you see a similar rough attitude
20 in the representatives of the Muslim community with
21 whom you were dealing?
22 A. Your Honour, I did not see any.
23 Q. Now, Colonel Kingori, let me ask you in terms
24 of how you would conduct your business. If there was
25 an allegation of a ceasefire violation, what would you
2 A. Your Honour, the first thing I would do is to
3 request for more information, especially concerning the
4 actual location where the violation has occurred. Then
5 go to that particular place, see what violation has
6 occurred. By "seeing," I mean maybe if it was some
7 rocket or artillery shell had fallen at that place, I
8 would go and see the actual location, maybe analyse the
9 crater to know the source of the artillery piece. Then
10 using the maps that we had, know the source, where it
11 actually came from that is, and get it in terms of grid
12 references so that we can forward it to the UN
13 headquarters through the normal channels.
14 But if it was a violation of maybe some
15 normal shooting, which was prevalent in that area,
16 mainly from the BSA side, I would also interview the
17 locals. I would interview them, ask them what actually
18 transpired, who actually infiltrated into that
19 particular area, who they believe those guys were
20 after, and after getting all that, I would forward it
21 to the UNMO headquarters.
22 Q. So would it be fair to say, Colonel Kingori,
23 that from the time you arrived in the enclave until the
24 fall of the enclave, you spent a considerable period of
25 your time in the field?
1 A. Your Honour, that is very true.
2 Q. And when you were in the field, were you
3 observing and making assessments of the various
4 capabilities of the warring factions?
5 A. That's very true, Your Honour.
6 Q. Now, if there was a violation of a ceasefire
7 or there was an incident or there was a shelling, you
8 mentioned you prepared reports. Those were reports
9 that were prepared by you personally or prepared by
10 part of your team or both?
11 A. Your Honour, these reports were being
12 prepared by either me or the other UNMOs, or at times
13 we could draft them together. What used to happen was
14 that when you are in the field, you come with what you
15 have found. Maybe someone else was in a different
16 area, and maybe the other guys who are left, the other
17 UNMOs who are left in there -- in the office. So we
18 would combine all these and make one report and send it
19 to the UNMO headquarters. So it was a combination of
20 all of us.
21 Q. Thank you, Colonel. We'll return to the
22 issue of reports in a few minutes.
23 Now, let me ask you: When the Bosnian Serb
24 side wanted to contact you, how would they do that?
25 A. Your Honour, from the BSA side, they would
1 contact our interpreter, that is, Petar, and since he
2 had a radio, one of the radios with a frequency, he
3 would contact us using that radio and tell us that one
4 of them wanted to meet us, the location, that is, where
5 he would like to meet us, and then we would confirm our
6 availability, and just go there.
7 MR. HARMON: Could I have Prosecutor's
8 Exhibit 42 placed on the ELMO, please.
9 Q. Colonel, there's an image of an individual
10 that's been placed on the ELMO. Do you recognise that
12 A. Yes, Your Honour.
13 Q. Who is that?
14 A. Your Honour, this was our interpreter,
15 Mr. Petar.
16 Q. This was your --
17 A. The Serb interpreter.
18 Q. Your initial source of contact. When the
19 Serbs wanted a meeting at UNMOs, they would go through
21 A. That's correct, Your Honour.
22 Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you: In the meetings
23 that you had with the representatives of the Bosnian
24 Serb army, from the time you arrived in the enclave in
25 April until the time that the enclave fell, did the
1 Bosnian Serbs complain to you about attacks being made
2 by armed units, Muslim units from within the enclave
3 going out of the enclave and attacking either military
4 formations or civilian targets?
5 A. Your Honour, I do not remember of any single
6 time that the BSA complained about firing from that
7 side, except maybe once, but that was not firing, it
8 was the people now going to Zepa to look for food.
9 There was nothing like military activities from the BiH
10 side that was complained about the BSA side.
11 Q. Now, did the Serbs ever explain to you, in
12 the time that you were in Srebrenica, about Serbian
13 casualties, either civilian or military, that were the
14 result of attacks by Muslim soldiers who had been
15 within the enclave?
16 A. Your Honour, I don't remember any time.
17 Q. Now, let me go to the other side of the
18 conflict. Can you tell the Judges: Did the Muslim
19 representatives complain to you about attacks by Serbs
20 coming into the enclave, either personally by infantry
21 formation or by artillery?
22 A. Your Honour, this happened several times,
23 very many times. The reports we could receive either
24 from the military organisation or from locals coming
25 from the other sides, other villages of Srebrenica, and
1 most of the time we would even go there and find people
2 maybe have been hit by shells. We would later take
3 them to hospital, and analyse the craters, or just
4 leave them there if their injuries are not serious.
5 But the violations were more from the BSA side.
6 Q. Did the Muslims then complain to you about
7 civilian casualties that had been suffered and did you,
8 in fact, confirm the existence of civilian casualties
9 on the Muslim side?
10 A. Your Honour, that was almost the order of the
11 day. Most of the time we would get complaints of
12 civilian casualties.
13 Q. Colonel Kingori, you were a neutral party,
14 but can you give the Judges your assessment of which of
15 the warring factions appeared to you to be the
17 A. Your Honour, from what I have said and what I
18 observed when I was there, most of the violations were
19 against the Muslims. I can't remember of any that was
20 against the Serbs from the Muslims. So that means,
21 basically, the BSA are the ones who were most of time
22 there actually the aggressors, as far as I know.
23 Q. Now, given the fact that you have testified
24 that you spent a considerable period of your time in
25 the field within the enclave, could you kindly give the
1 Judges your assessment of the Bosnian military
2 formations that were within the enclave? First of all,
3 can you describe the types of equipment that you saw
4 them in possession of?
5 A. Your Honour, can you confirm whether you mean
6 the Bosnian Serbs or --
7 Q. Sorry, I made a mistake. I meant the Bosnian
8 Muslims who were within the enclave. Can you provide
9 the Judges with an assessment of those military
10 formations, and when you give that assessment, can you
11 include all aspects of military analysis?
12 A. Your Honour, from the Muslim side, that is
13 BiH, there was no organised military as such. For one,
14 it is good to remember that they did not have heavy
15 weapons. All the heavy weapons had been withdrawn and
16 taken to DutchBat for safe custody, because the whole
17 enclave was a safe area. It was a demilitarised zone.
18 That means all the weapons, especially the heavy
19 weapons, were withdrawn and taken to DutchBat for safe
20 custody. In fact, most of it was in the B-Company
21 Compound near where we were living.
22 Okay. We cannot discount the fact that they
23 had some small arms. We're talking about AK-47s and
24 all that, but they did not have heavy weapons. They
25 were not -- as we can say militarily, they were not
1 armed as such. They were not.
2 Q. Did you ever see any formations of soldiers?
3 A. Your Honour, I cannot remember seeing any
4 formation. Okay. At times you could see one, two
5 soldiers with some small arms, but the biggest number I
6 ever saw was a maximum of ten, and those are very few
8 Q. How would you assess their command
10 A. Your Honour, what I can say is that their
11 command structure -- okay. We can say it existed, but
12 it sort of -- it was not fully established. They had a
13 chief of staff who was Ramiz. They had someone -- I
14 can't remember what his name was. He was a senior
15 person whom I never met. But you cannot call that an
16 organised military command structure. It was not
17 exactly that. Okay, they had an IO, an intelligence
18 officer, that is Ekrem, but it was not an organised
19 structure the way the military should be, as far as I
20 could see.
21 Q. What was your assessment, Colonel Kingori, of
22 the threat that these armed Muslims within the enclave
23 posed to the areas outside of the enclave?
24 A. Your Honour, I don't think they posed any
25 threat at all. They were not armed as such, and as
1 compared to what I knew the BSA had or what they showed
2 later that they had, definitely the Muslims were no
3 match for the Serbs.
4 Q. Why don't we address your attention then to
5 what the Bosnian Serb army had. Can you describe that
7 A. Your Honour, at least the Serbs -- I can say
8 they had an organised structure, and they used to
9 follow it. At the same time, I can also say they were
10 armed with heavy weapons. At least they had artillery,
11 because they used it. They had mortars. They had
12 machine-guns. They had rockets, even indicated at some
13 times where their rocket launchers were. They had
14 tanks and many other types of heavy weapons.
15 Q. Did they have armoured personnel carriers?
16 Did they have jeeps?
17 A. Yes, Your Honour, they had them. Later on,
18 anyway. They robbed some from the UNPROFOR, but that
19 was just in addition to what they had.
20 Q. Now, can you assess or provide the Judges
21 with an assessment on the command structure? Was it a
22 command structure that, in your opinion, functioned and
23 functioned properly?
24 A. Your Honour, as far as I know, their command
25 structure functioned. The way it was organised was a
1 normal, we can say conventional military, and you could
2 see -- sometimes they could tell you, "I cannot be able
3 to answer you this until I check with our higher
4 commanders." That means they had an organised command
6 Q. Now, did it appear to you that the Bosnian
7 Serb army was an entity that was that one where the
8 higher levels would issue orders and the lower
9 subordinate units would follow orders?
10 A. Your Honour, that is the case. The higher
11 commanders used to give orders and the lower ones used
12 to obey.
13 Q. Colonel Kingori, I'd like to focus your
14 attention on a meeting that occurred in June of 1995
15 and took place at the Hotel Fontana with
16 representatives of the Bosnian Serb army. Do you
17 recall that particular meeting?
18 A. Your Honour, I can.
19 Q. How was it that that meeting was called?
20 A. Your Honour, that meeting was called through
21 by Major Nikolic, through our interpreter, Petar, and
22 we went to the Hotel Fontana for that meeting.
23 Q. And did you personally attend that meeting?
24 A. Your Honour, I did.
25 Q. From the Bosnian Serb side, who was present?
1 A. Your Honour, from the BSA side there was
2 Major Nikolic, Colonel Vukovic, and some other senior
4 Q. Could I show you Prosecutor's Exhibit 28/4
5 and ask you if this particular man in Prosecutor's
6 Exhibit 28/4 was present at that meeting.
7 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, you can use my
8 exhibit right here, it might be faster. If that could
9 be placed on the ELMO.
10 Q. And do you see anybody in that exhibit,
11 Colonel Kingori, who was also present; and if so, can
12 you point him out?
13 A. Your Honour, this particular individual was
14 in the meeting [indicates].
15 MR. HARMON: For the record, on Prosecutor's
16 28/4, Colonel Kingori has identified the individual who
17 is in the foreground with an orange face. He is the
18 second individual from the right-hand side of the
20 Thank you, Colonel.
21 MR. HARMON: And if I could have my exhibit
22 back, Mr. Usher.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me,
24 Mr. Harmon. Could the witness perhaps try to remember
25 that person's name?
1 MR. HARMON:
2 Q. Do you recall at present that person's name?
3 A. Your Honour, I cannot remember the name,
4 but -- I cannot remember the actual name, to be
6 Q. Can you tell the Judges what the purpose of
7 that meeting was?
8 A. Your Honour, the purpose of that meeting was
9 mainly to discuss the people in the enclave and -- yes,
10 I think it was mainly to discuss that.
11 Q. And do you recall what was said at that
12 particular meeting in respect of the people in the
14 A. Your Honour, it was said that the people in
15 the enclave should leave the enclave as -- you know,
16 what they said was that they do not belong there; they
17 should leave the enclave in totality.
18 Q. And do you recall who was saying that?
19 A. Your Honour, this was said by Colonel
21 Q. Did he make any statements that you
22 interpreted to be menacing?
23 A. Your Honour, the words he used that time were
24 menacing, if I can say, because he said if the Muslims
25 do not leave, he is going to kill all of them.
1 Q. Now, did any of the Bosnian Serb military
2 people who were present -- or strike that. Were other
3 Bosnian Serb military personnel present when Colonel
4 Vukovic said that?
5 A. Your Honour, the other senior officers were
6 also present.
7 Q. Did any of the other senior Bosnian Serb
8 military officers who were present when Colonel Vukovic
9 said that disagree with him or attempt to soften that
10 in any way?
11 A. Your Honour, as far as I know, no one
12 objected to what Colonel Vukovic said, no one talked
13 about it, and it is as if what he said is something
14 they had discussed earlier, or he was just conveying
15 what they had discussed earlier or something like that.
16 Q. Was there also a discussion that included a
17 discussion about safe passage of the Muslims from the
19 A. Your Honour, that is true. He said that --
20 it was said that if the Muslims decide to leave, as
21 they were requested to do, they would be given a safe
22 passage to leave through up to Tuzla, to join their
23 brothers in Tuzla.
24 Q. At the conclusion of this meeting, Colonel
25 Kingori, did you form any opinions about the intentions
1 of the Bosnian Serb army? Did you walk away from that
2 meeting with any particular feelings?
3 A. Your Honour, the feelings that I got out of
4 that meeting was that maybe something was afoot,
5 something was being planned, something to make sure
6 that whatever Colonel Vukovic said will be done; that
7 is, the Serbs -- the Muslims should leave the enclave
8 and they will be given a free passage, and if they do
9 not, maybe something will be done. We suspected
10 something could be done, and they conveyed the same to
11 the UN headquarters.
12 Q. Now, let me fast-forward a bit to the attack
13 on the enclave itself. When the attack on the enclave
14 started, where were you?
15 A. Your Honour, I was in the PTT building. We
16 were asleep at that time, me and Major Tetteh.
17 Q. And did you remain in the PTT building from
18 the time the attack started until approximately the 9th
19 of July?
20 A. Your Honour, we stayed -- okay. We did not
21 stay inside the building, because we were going out to
22 check what is happening. We were also going out to
23 analyse the craters, that is, carrying out our normal
24 onward duties. Then we would go back to the PTT
25 building, write the sitreps, that is, the situation
1 reports, and send them over as they occurred. And
2 during that period, if there is anything else, we would
3 still go out and come back with the same thing. But
4 basically I can say we were in Srebrenica and we stayed
5 there until much later, when we left for DutchBat
7 Q. All right, Colonel Kingori.
8 MR. HARMON: I'm going to ask, first of all,
9 Mr. President, that Prosecutor's Exhibit 77 be
10 distributed. And Your Honours, Prosecutor's 77 are a
11 series of UNMO reports and UNPROFOR reports between the
12 dates of the 6th of July and the 18th of July.
13 Q. Now, Colonel Kingori, have you seen these
14 reports before? Have I shown you these reports, and
15 did you recognise these reports?
16 A. Yes, Your Honour.
17 Q. Now, were these reports that were prepared by
18 you or other members of -- Major Tetteh, who was the
19 other UNMO, at or about the time the events described
20 in the reports were occurring?
21 A. Yes, Your Honour.
22 Q. And do these reports contain your
23 observations as you best knew them at the time?
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon,
25 excuse me for interrupting you, but would you find it
1 more expedient and efficient to show these reports to
2 the public too so that people know what we are
3 addressing here?
4 MR. HARMON: I would be glad if the usher
5 could take out the first report and -- I'm sorry -- the
6 report that is -- yes, the first report, the report
7 that is found in tab 1. If you could put that --
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As you
9 know, Mr. Harmon, we have open sessions and we have to
10 take care of that. Of course, the Judges need to see
11 the reports, but perhaps the public should also see
12 them. Thank you, Mr. Harmon.
13 MR. HARMON: Thank you very much,
14 Mr. President.
15 Q. Now, the report that's been found in
16 Prosecutor's Exhibit 77 tab 1 has been placed on the
17 ELMO. Can you identify that report as being either an
18 UNMO report or an UNPROFOR report?
19 A. Your Honour, this is an UNMO report, as can
20 be seen from the way it is written. It's from UNMO
21 headquarters sector Bosnia-Herzegovina north-east 2,
22 UNMO headquarters, BiH command. So it is an UNMO
24 Q. And is there a date on that report, and can
25 you point with the pointer where the date of this
1 report is located?
2 A. Your Honour, this is the date, which is the
3 6th of July, 1995.
4 Q. And on a particular day did you send more
5 than one report up your chain of command?
6 A. Your Honour, that is true, because we had to
7 send the situation reports, and if something occurred
8 in the course of time, we would send updates of the
9 same report.
10 MR. HARMON: Now if the usher could take that
11 particular item off of the ELMO and if we could place
12 the Prosecutor's 77, tab 2, on the ELMO, we'll be able
13 to make a distinction between the reports that are
14 contained in Prosecutor's Exhibit 77.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon,
16 sorry once again for interrupting you. I should like
17 to ask the technicians to do the following: When the
18 document is placed on the ELMO, if they could first
19 show us the document in its entirety, and only after
20 that to focus on the pertinent paragraph. Could you
21 please show us the whole document? Thank you. This
22 would be enough. Thank you very much.
23 Sorry, Mr. Harmon, for this interruption.
24 MR. HARMON:
25 Q. Now, for purposes of future reference for
1 both for counsel and for the Trial Chamber, so they can
2 make a distinction, is the report that is now on the
3 ELMO an UNMO report or an UNPROFOR report?
4 A. Your Honour, this is an UNPROFOR report.
5 Q. And are the observations contained in that
6 report based on observations of UNPROFOR personnel?
7 A. Your Honour, that is true. It's based on
8 UNPROFOR personnel and not necessarily anything to do
9 with UNMO.
10 MR. HARMON: Now, let me just, for purposes
11 of future reference and convenience, let me turn to the
12 item that is found in Prosecutor's 77, tab 6. If that
13 could be placed on the ELMO. This will be of
14 assistance both to the Trial Chamber and to counsel
15 when they review these reports.
16 Q. Colonel Kingori, this is an UNMO report,
17 isn't it?
18 A. Your Honour, it is an UNMO report.
19 MR. HARMON: Now, if we could zoom down on
20 the UNMO report, please, to the top of the page. Right
21 there is fine.
22 Q. And do you see, Colonel, the top of the page,
23 underneath the word "from," there is the letters DTG,
24 and then there are a series of numbers with July 1995.
25 Could you explain to the Judges what those numbers are
1 and how to read those numbers in respect of this
2 document and in other documents where similar numbers
4 A. Your Honour, DTG means date, time, group. It
5 is different from the normal dates. In the military,
6 the way we write, you start the date -- the DTG with
7 the date. That is the date. Like, here you can see it
8 was on the 8th [indicates]. Then the time. That is
9 using a 24-hour clock. That is, now it was at 1430.
10 And then the letter Bravo, that is, B, means the time
11 zone. For example, like where we were, we were using a
12 time zone Bravo, and I think it is the same even here.
13 In Kenya, West Africa, we use Charlie. So there is a
14 difference in the time zones. Then the JUL, that means
15 it's July. That is the month. And then the 95
16 indicates the year.
17 Q. Colonel, thank you very much. I hope that
18 will assist the Chamber when they have an opportunity
19 to review the reports, and assist counsel as well, in
20 what time these particular observations that are
21 reflected in the reports are being made.
22 Now, I don't intend to go through all of
23 these reports with you, Colonel Kingori, because that
24 would take more time than I think would be necessary,
25 but let me ask you: Do the reports that are found in
1 Prosecutor's 77, and which you've had an opportunity to
2 review, do they accurately reflect the events, as you
3 perceive them, on the ground?
4 A. Your Honour, they do.
5 Q. Now, I'd like you to -- first of all, can you
6 tell us when the attack on the Srebrenica enclave
8 A. Your Honour, the attack on the enclave
9 started on the 6th of July, 1995.
10 Q. And can you summarise the attack, the methods
11 that were used and the targets of the attack?
12 A. Your Honour, that day, in the morning, what
13 woke us up was the shelling. "Shelling," we are
14 talking about the usage of heavy weapons, like
15 artillery pieces, mortars, and all that. So that is
16 what woke us up that morning.
17 The attack was concentrated on that day on
18 the village of Srebrenica and Potocari, and as far as I
19 knew, there were no military targets in that area.
20 Like, where they were hitting in Srebrenica, they were
21 hitting on the roads, next to the hospital, near --
22 hitting houses and all that. As far as I know, there
23 were no military targets in that area that they were
25 Q. Can you describe the intensity of the
1 shelling over the three days that you were in
2 Srebrenica itself?
3 A. Your Honour, what I can say is that it was
4 very high. At times we could count over a hundred
5 shells landing in the same place, be it at Srebrenica.
6 You know, a continuous shelling of up to a hundred
7 shells in the same area, and that is quite high
8 intensity, considering the size of those villages.
9 Q. Now, you mentioned the hospital. What
10 happened to the hospital in Srebrenica?
11 A. Your Honour, the hospital was missed, I think
12 three times. Three shells missed the hospital just by
13 a whisker sort of. We could sense that it could have
14 been targeted in that due to the inaccuracy of the
15 weapons, we thought that was the reason why they could
16 not get a direct hit on the hospital, because the miss
17 was just by a few metres, just by a few metres.
18 Q. Was any damage inflicted on the hospital?
19 A. Your Honour, other than maybe broken -- okay,
20 broken windows due to fragmentation, there was no
21 serious damage on the hospital.
22 Q. What about the PTT building where you and
23 Major Tetteh were headquartered, was that struck by
25 A. Your Honour, the PTT building was not hit at
1 that particular time, it was hit later, but it was
2 missed several times. Some of the shells could land on
3 the opposite side where there was a hill, and we could
4 sense maybe they were also targeting that area, but we
5 were missed that time, until much later after we had
6 withdrawn to DutchBat Compound. That is when it was
8 Q. What is your assessment, Colonel Kingori,
9 about this particular artillery attack over the days
10 that you remained in Srebrenica? Against what kind of
11 targets were these shells directed?
12 A. Your Honour, the target, as far as we knew,
13 as far as we could get when we were going out for our
14 patrols during that period, was mainly the populous;
15 that is, the personnel -- the people in that area, that
16 is, the civilians. Because after shelling for some
17 period, you know, targeting the houses in that
18 particular village, they would wait for some time then
19 shell the same place again. According to our own
20 assessment, that meant that they were waiting for the
21 people to come out to pick the injured and maybe check
22 the damage and all that, and then they would hit them
23 again when they're still there. So they wanted, as far
24 as we were concerned, to get maximum casualties on the
25 people who were there.
1 Q. Why do you think they were targeting
2 civilians, in your opinion?
3 A. Your Honour, in my opinion, the main reason
4 was to make sure that they harassed these people in
5 such a way that they are forced to leave the enclave,
6 because as they had said earlier, they did not want the
7 Muslims inside that enclave. They just wanted it for
8 themselves; that is, the Serbs. So they just wanted to
9 cause fear, panic, and force the Muslims to flee that
11 Q. Now, did you eventually leave Srebrenica town
12 and go to Potocari?
13 A. Your Honour, we did, and this was -- we
14 actually tried to stay in that place. We wanted to be
15 as close as possible to the concentration of the
16 shelling so that we could report as objectively as
17 possible, but a time came when we were also, you know,
18 threatened. When we sighted a tank positioned in a
19 direct line of fire, about two kilometres or so from
20 our location, we felt we were directly threatened and
21 they could get a direct hit on us, and we feared for
22 our own safety and decided to leave, though even --
23 okay. I will not go to that part, but by the time we
24 were leaving, the Muslims did not want us to leave,
25 because they felt if we leave them, the Serbs would
1 just come and overrun that place.
2 They also thought that the Serbs were maybe
3 not hitting that place as seriously as they would have
4 done because of our presence; that is, the presence of
5 the UNMOs in that particular place, and that if we
6 left, now they will do whatever they wanted with that
8 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I'm not sure when
9 Your Honour wants to take a break in time. I'm
10 prepared to proceed. I just am unclear on the timing.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I was just
12 thinking of how to split the last part of the day.
13 Maybe it's a good idea to have a break now. We still
14 have a couple of issues pending which need discussion,
15 so I think that it would be perhaps a good idea to
16 finish the testimony of Colonel Kingori at 2.15, and
17 then we will have 15 minutes left for our discussion.
18 So we are going to have a 20-minute break
19 now, after which we will continue with the testimony of
20 Colonel Kingori.
21 Let me just tell you that we cannot hear this
22 witness later than 2.15, because we have to have 15
23 minutes for our discussion.
24 --- Recess taken at 12.43 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 1.15 p.m.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon,
2 let us continue until quarter past two, more or less.
3 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. Colonel Kingori, on the 9th of July you went
5 to Potocari; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, Your Honour.
7 Q. At approximately what time did you arrive in
8 Potocari and where did you go in Potocari?
9 A. We left the PTT building around 1800 hours,
10 and I think we arrived maybe 10, 15 minutes after
12 Q. Where did you go in Potocari?
13 A. Your Honour, in Potocari, we went to the
14 DutchBat Compound. That is where the Dutch Battalion
15 was located.
16 Q. Now, the following day, the 10th of July, did
17 you attempt to contact representatives from the Bosnian
18 Serb side?
19 A. Your Honour, we attempted. We tried that
20 time, but we were unable to contact them.
21 Q. Who did you contact and who were you trying
22 to contact?
23 A. Your Honour, we were trying to contact
24 Major Nikolic through your interpreter Petar.
25 Q. Did you succeed?
1 A. Your Honour, we did not succeed.
2 Q. Now, let me turn your attention to the
3 11th of July, the next day, and can you tell me and
4 tell the Chamber approximately what time refugees
5 started to arrive in and around Potocari on the 11th of
7 A. Your Honour, the refugees started streaming
8 in in the afternoon on the 11th of July.
9 Q. And on the 11th of July, are you able to
10 estimate how many refugees were in and around the
11 UN Compound in Potocari?
12 A. Your Honour, what I can remember is that
13 inside the compound there were about 5.000 or so
14 refugees, and outside there were actually more than
15 that. It could have been even up to 7.000, 8.000, or
16 even up to 10.000.
17 Q. Can you give the Judges your assessment of
18 the composition of those refugees, the percentage of
19 men to women, the ages of the refugees?
20 A. Your Honour, the percentages -- I might not
21 be very correct, but the men were fewer than the
22 women. Let's say -- we can say it's about 80 per cent
23 women and the other percentage men, and also that the
24 men who were there were -- okay. Most of them are
25 older people, you know, beyond fighting age, as I can
1 say, and the others were just boys, young boys.
2 Q. Was there sufficient food, sufficient water
3 for those refugees?
4 A. As far as I can remember, we had problems
5 with water and food. Water -- actually, at that time
6 we did not have any to feed those people with, and they
7 were very thirsty. Even when I said -- okay. In the
8 DutchBat Compound we had some water, but those who were
9 outside did not have any at all.
10 Q. What do you recall the weather conditions to
11 be like on the 11th of July?
12 A. Your Honour, on the 11th it was hot, very hot
13 during the day, and in the evening it was very, very
15 Q. Now, on the 11th of July, did you receive a
16 telephone call from a representative from the Bosnian
17 Serb side, either a telephone call or radio contact,
18 some form of communication?
19 A. Your Honour, on the 11th, Petar tried to
20 communicate to us, requesting for a meeting with Major
21 Nikolic. That is now us and UNPROFOR. But when we
22 requested the UN headquarters for approval, we were not
23 allowed to go there for that meeting.
24 Q. Why not?
25 A. The assessment of the situation at that time
1 was that since the airstrikes had already been called
2 for, maybe that could have been the reason why the BSA
3 wanted to call us for a meeting, and maybe even hold us
4 as human shields against the airstrikes so that they do
5 not occur. And we feared also, and our UN
6 headquarters, that is, the sector headquarters, also
7 feared for that fact, because something like that had
8 happened earlier in other sectors, and it is a risky
10 Q. Now, did you see any Muslim fighters, Muslim
11 people who were armed in and around the UN Compound in
12 Potocari on the 11th of July?
13 A. Your Honour, there were several, many BSA
14 soldiers who came there that day.
15 Q. If I said Serb soldiers, I made a mistake. I
16 meant to say Muslim fighters. Did you see any Muslim
17 fighters on the 11th of July?
18 A. Your Honour, there were no Muslims soldiers
19 there at all.
20 Q. On the 11th of July, was there any shelling
21 in and around the compound at Potocari?
22 A. Your Honour, as far as I can remember,
23 shelling was ongoing, even at that time.
24 Q. Do you remember what areas were being
25 shelled, if you can recall?
1 A. Your Honour, Potocari was a target and
2 Srebrenica was also a target. And we could hear some
3 rockets overflying us, going towards other parts of the
4 enclave. But at least Potocari and Srebrenica were
5 still being targeted.
6 Q. Could you see where those rockets or where
7 that artillery fire was hitting?
8 A. Your Honour, some of them we could see,
9 because -- like, the ones which were falling around
10 Potocari we could see. But the ones going beyond, we
11 could not know where they were hitting. But at least
12 for Srebrenica we had one interpreter who had gone
13 there and who from there could tell us what was going
14 on. At least Srebrenica was being hit also.
15 Q. Now, let me turn your attention to the next
16 day, the 12th of July. Did you see the arrival of
17 Bosnian Serb soldiers on the 12th of July?
18 A. Yes, Your Honour.
19 Q. Can you -- well, let me ask you this
20 question: Approximately what time do you recall they
22 A. Your Honour, this was in the morning
23 section. If I can remember very well, it was in the
24 morning section, and -- yes, they arrived in the
25 morning section.
1 Q. Can you describe the soldiers that you saw
2 arriving into the Potocari area?
3 A. Your Honour, the soldiers I remember seeing
4 coming over there wore black -- they had black
5 uniforms. They looked different from the normal BSA
6 soldiers we used to see around there.
7 Q. In addition to those soldiers, did you see
8 any other soldiers?
9 A. Your Honour, I also saw the normal, ordinary
10 soldiers in green camouflage, and -- that is, their
11 normal BSA camouflage -- and also there were some in
12 blue, which was normally being used by the police.
13 Q. What was the reaction of the Muslim people
14 when the Bosnian Serb soldiers arrived?
15 A. Your Honour, the actual reaction was they
16 were all afraid when they saw the soldiers passing
17 through there. You could see fear in them,
18 uncertainty. They did not know what will happen to
19 them, because they were now in one place. And they
20 were always -- they were afraid of the worst, you know,
21 what could happen to them at that particular time. You
22 could see it in their eyes, their reaction, the way
23 they talked. They were all afraid.
24 Q. Now, sometime on the 12th of July, did
25 Bosnian Serb military representatives come to the UN
2 A. Your Honour, they did.
3 Q. Can you tell the Judges the circumstances
4 under which they came and who came?
5 A. The ones who came in, they were just coming
6 to check whether there were any Muslim soldiers inside
7 there, Muslim soldiers, you know, whether they were
8 armed or not. At least they were looking for Muslim
9 soldiers inside there.
10 Secondly, they wanted to see who is actually
11 housed there, because when we met them, we told them it
12 is only the injured people, the women and older men of
13 Srebrenica who are inside there. And they sort of
14 maybe did not trust what we told them, and they decided
15 to go in and check for themselves.
16 Q. Were you there when these representatives
17 from the Bosnian Serb army came?
18 A. Your Honour, I was personally there.
19 Q. Can you identify any of the individuals who
20 came to the UN Compound at that time?
21 A. Your Honour, I can. I can remember some of
22 them. At least I can remember some of them.
23 Q. Who were they?
24 A. Your Honour, at least there was Major
25 Nikolic, he was there; the interpreter, Petar, was also
1 there; Colonel Vukovic was also there; and there was --
2 Krstic was also there; another guy I cannot remember,
3 another senior officer. I cannot remember his name
4 very well. But I can remember some of their faces.
5 Q. You've previously identified Petar. You said
7 A. Yes, Your Honour.
8 Q. Who was Krstic?
9 A. Your Honour, he was introduced to us together
10 with the other senior officers, and he was introduced
11 as being one of the senior officers from the BSA side.
12 And I cannot remember his actual position in that
13 hierarchy. I can't remember that well.
14 Q. Have you seen a picture of an individual who
15 you have identified as Krstic?
16 A. Your Honour, I have.
17 Q. Is that individual in this courtroom today?
18 A. Mind if I stand up?
19 Q. Please.
20 A. It's that individual there [indicates].
21 Q. Can you identify what he's wearing, for the
23 A. That time he was in green camouflage, but his
24 weight was a bit -- difficult for me to identify him
1 Q. Can you identify what he's wearing now?
2 A. Right now he's in a black suit and a blue
3 shirt and a dotted tie.
4 MR. HARMON: Could the record reflect,
5 Mr. President, that the defendant has been identified
6 by Colonel Kingori.
7 Q. You can have a seat, Colonel Kingori.
8 Now, let me ask that -- let me ask you this
9 question: Who introduced you to General Krstic?
10 A. Your Honour, anyway, I didn't know him as a
11 General at that time, but he was introduced to me by
12 Major Nikolic.
13 Q. And how long did the individuals Major
14 Nikolic, General Krstic, Petar, and others, remain with
15 you in and around the UN Compound on that occasion?
16 A. Your Honour, we were together in that area,
17 inside the compound, for about 15 minutes or so,
18 somewhere there.
19 Q. Now, let me ask -- you said you could not --
20 you didn't know the names of some of the others, but
21 you could recognise them. Did I have an opportunity to
22 show you Prosecutor's Exhibit number 28, and did you
23 identify an individual from within this exhibit?
24 A. Your Honour, that's true.
25 MR. HARMON: Now, could I have Prosecutor's
1 Exhibit 28/3.2 put on the ELMO, please. That's not
2 3.2. This is 3.2. It's under tab 1. It's under tab
3 1. You can use mine. Use this.
4 Q. Can you identify one of the individuals who
5 you saw with General Krstic and Petar and Major Nikolic
6 at the UN Compound?
7 A. This individual was there that time.
8 MR. HARMON: On this particular exhibit,
9 Mr. President, the witness has pointed to the
10 individual in the left-hand side of the photograph.
11 Now, Mr. Usher, if you can give that back to
12 me, I will show you another photograph.
13 Q. This is Prosecutor's Exhibit 28/1. Do you
14 see that same individual in this particular
16 A. Your Honour, I can see him. He's the one
18 Q. Indicating the individual on the far
19 left-hand side of that particular image.
20 MR. HARMON: Thank you very much, Mr. Usher.
21 Q. Now, Colonel, after the individuals left, did
22 you have an opportunity to see General Mladic?
23 A. Your Honour, I did.
24 Q. Can you describe to the Judges the
25 circumstances under which you met General Mladic?
1 A. At that time, I saw some -- okay, the normal
2 movement of the BSA soldiers now on the road adjacent
3 to the DutchBat Compound, and I went out to check what
4 was going on, normal routine just to see what was
5 happening outside there. That is when I saw a group of
6 BSA soldiers surrounding a certain individual, and I
7 became a bit curious. Upon arriving there, I saw
8 General Mladic, who I could identify, because I had
9 seen him earlier on television, photos, and all that.
10 So at least I could identify him.
11 Q. What was he doing? I'm sorry. What was he
13 A. At that particular moment, he was -- I can't
14 remember whether that is the time he was
15 distributing -- yeah. That is the time he was
16 distributing soft drinks and candies and all that to
17 the refugees who were outside the main compound.
18 Q. Now, in addition to General Mladic
19 distributing sweets and drinks to the refugees, did you
20 see anybody else doing that?
21 A. Your Honour, there were other senior officers
22 and soldiers who were doing the same, the distribution.
23 Q. Now, let me show you, if I could,
24 Prosecutor's Exhibit 78.
25 MR. HARMON: This, Mr. President, is a very
1 short piece of film footage that has been seen
2 previously. In order to shorten it, I have made this
3 film footage. It is only a matter of seconds. But if
4 we could play Prosecutor's Exhibit 78, please.
5 Q. Colonel, it should come up on your monitor in
6 front of you.
7 [Videotape played]
8 MR. HARMON:
9 Q. Colonel, did you see that scene or scenes
10 similar to that?
11 A. Your Honour, I was there that time when that
12 distribution was going on.
13 Q. Could you tell the Judges what else you saw?
14 A. At that time, when the distribution was going
15 on, there was someone with a video camera. At least he
16 was filming whenever the distribution was going on. As
17 far as I thought at that time, it was maybe a PR or,
18 let's say, a propaganda issue. That is what I thought,
19 that maybe they want to show the world that they are
20 doing something for these people, and maybe the
21 International Community could forget whatever they have
22 done against those people.
23 Also what I saw that time was immediately the
24 camera turned to a different direction, some of the
25 soldiers could pick the candies back, you know, from
1 the people they have just given, the children and all
2 that. So that is something unique. I did not
3 understand why they had to do that. And that is --
4 that forced me to conclude that this is just a PR or
5 personal relationship thing, maybe just to show the
6 International Community that they are not against these
7 Muslims per se.
8 Q. Now, Colonel Kingori --
9 JUDGE RIAD: I'm sorry, I do not understand
10 this last thing. You said -- what did you conclude
11 when they picked back the sweets? What did you
12 conclude? That it was not against the Muslims?
13 A. Your Honour, what I concluded was that if
14 they're picking these candies back from the
15 individuals, the main purpose of giving them was to
16 show, because the filming was going on, to show the
17 International Community that they are doing good things
18 to these refugees, so that the opinion of the
19 International Community can forget or can ignore the
20 atrocities they have already committed to those
22 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you.
23 MR. HARMON:
24 Q. Colonel Kingori, did you see General Mladic
25 on one occasion or more than one occasion on the
1 12th of July?
2 A. On the 12th, I saw him twice. I think twice,
4 Q. What were the circumstances of the second
6 A. The second occasion was when I realised that
7 there was separation, separation going on between the
8 men and the women and children. And men were being
9 taken to a certain location, actually a house on the
10 left side as you go from Srebrenica, actually out of
11 Potocari. I did not understand why the separation was
12 there. And also the way the men were being kept in
13 that building was not in a good manner. There were
14 very many. It was crowded. They were stepping on each
16 The whole scenario did not look good to me,
17 and that is why I went to General Mladic and asked him
18 what is actually going on. Why are they doing
19 something like that; that is, putting people together,
20 huddling them together in such a small place, and all
21 the men, why they were doing that. He told me, they
22 don't have anything -- there's nothing bad they're
23 doing. In fact, the people there are very
24 comfortable. They're very comfortable inside there.
25 Then he requested me to accompany him, but
1 then there was a delay, a small delay. We went there
2 with him, but that time some BSA soldiers had already
3 gone towards the house, and when we arrived there, they
4 started distributing beer, soft drinks to the men now.
5 And he asked me, "Can't you see that they're
6 comfortable? Can't you see?" just because they were
7 taking the drink. "Can't you see that they're okay?"
8 There's nothing that I had done, because I
9 had earlier tried to go there and I was prevented. Now
10 this time I requested him to allow me to enter the
11 house, and he personally told me no, there is no point
12 in going inside there. So there is practically nothing
13 I could have done.
14 Q. Colonel Kingori, you said you tried to go
15 into the house earlier. Who prevented you from going
16 into the house where these men were being kept?
17 A. BSA soldiers who were guarding that place.
18 The place was being guarded by BSA soldiers. They were
19 the ones who told me I cannot be allowed to go inside
20 that building.
21 Q. Okay. And as a result of that, you went to
22 see General Mladic, I take it, and that's when he
23 returned with you.
24 A. Right. That is what I did.
25 Q. Now, did you also have another occasion to
1 see General Krstic and other high-ranking officers that
3 A. Your Honour, I did.
4 Q. Explain to the Judges the circumstances under
5 which you saw General Krstic and other high-ranking
7 A. Your Honour, this was partly -- at the same
8 time when we were with General Mladic, these guys were
9 there. All of them, they were there and around. After
10 that -- I cannot remember the other place where I met
12 Q. Now, when you say "these guys," who are the
13 individuals you said are "these guys"? Can you
14 identify them more precisely?
15 A. Your Honour, the people I'm talking about are
16 the senior BSA soldiers -- BSA officers. We're talking
17 about Major Nikolic, Colonel Vukovic -- the ones I can
18 remember the names -- and also Krstic, and another
19 person who introduced himself to me as the legal
20 officer, a legal officer. Can I remember the name?
21 Oskuminic or someone like that. But he told me he's a
22 legal officer and even wrote his address for me, which
23 I still keep.
24 Q. What language did the legal officer speak?
25 A. Your Honour, the legal officer was speaking
1 English, you know, fluent. Good English. Good
2 English. That is why we were able to discuss with
4 Q. I'd like to show you a photograph of
5 Prosecutor's 28/13.1.
6 MR. HARMON: And this is found, Mr. Usher, in
7 tab 11. That's it. Yes. Could you place that on the
8 ELMO, please?
9 Q. Can you identify this individual?
10 A. Your Honour, this is the guy who presented
11 himself as the legal officer. I can remember him very
13 Q. And the individual who was speaking English?
14 A. And the person who was speaking English.
15 Q. Now, previously in this testimony you also
16 identify an individual who was found at Prosecutor's
17 Exhibit 28/8.1.
18 MR. HARMON: Which, Mr. Usher, is found in
19 tab 6. Place that on the ELMO, please.
20 Q. The individual on the left-hand side of this
21 Prosecutor's Exhibit, did you see him again that day?
22 A. Your Honour, he was there. We were with him
24 Q. On the second occasion?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You've also identified an individual who is
2 in Prosecutor's Exhibit 28/4.
3 MR. HARMON: Which is found in tab 2,
4 Mr. Usher. Place that on the ELMO.
5 Q. The individual you've previously identified
6 in Prosecutor's Exhibit 28/4, did you see him as well?
7 A. Yes, Your Honour. He is the individual.
8 Q. Now, were you in a position to see what the
9 accused, General Krstic, and these individuals were
11 A. What I can remember very well was that they
12 were coming in and going out. They were at one time
13 with us and with General Mladic there, and at times
14 they would go out there, I mean, to the soldiers, talk
15 to them, which, as far as I was concerned, they were
16 giving orders to these soldiers. Then they would later
17 come back and join us or go to another place. So they
18 were in and out.
19 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, I'm finished with
20 that exhibit. Thank you very much.
21 Q. Now, did you see the accused and these other
22 individuals near the area where these Muslim men who
23 had been separated were being detained?
24 A. Your Honour, when we went there with
25 General Mladic, these people were there. These -- we
1 were together, all of us.
2 MR. HARMON: Now, if I could have
3 Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/17 placed on the ELMO.
4 Q. I'd like to ask you if you can identify this
5 particular location. Do you recognise that particular
7 A. Yes, Your Honour, I can.
8 Q. What is that building?
9 A. This is the building we were calling White
10 House. This is the place where the men were being
11 taken to.
12 Q. Was there more than one building where the
13 men were being taken to?
14 A. Your Honour, this was one of them. The other
15 one was somewhere in a different location, but this was
16 the place I said after the separation of the men were
17 being handled together.
18 Q. Let me show you Prosecutor's
19 Exhibit 53/B [sic], which is a new exhibit.
20 MR. HARMON: Let me ask that that be placed
21 on the ELMO.
22 Q. And ask you, Colonel Kingori, if you can
23 locate on Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/3B the second location
24 where men were being detained.
25 A. Your Honour, it's not very easy to detect
1 from here, but the other location was somewhere here
3 Q. Would you take a pen, please -- there should
4 be a pen available to you -- and would you circle the
5 area where the second location is where the men were
6 being detained?
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. All right. Thank you very much, Colonel.
9 Now, did you actually see the men being separated, and
10 did you see what happened to them when they approached
11 one or both of these locations?
12 A. If I can start with the White Building, I was
13 personally there, and I saw the men being taken towards
14 that building. They were being forced to leave their
15 belongings at the road junction with the truck that
16 leads to the building just somewhere there, all their
17 belongings. By that I mean even the money they had,
18 the pocketknives they had, their wallets, and any other
19 belongings, maybe bags and all that. They were leaving
20 all of them out there before they entered the
22 As for the other house, the one I have just
23 marked, the men who were being taken there, I was told
24 by some Dutch soldiers that there were some men who had
25 been taken behind that building, and they didn't know
1 what was happening. So I decided to go inside there
2 and check.
3 The soldier, the Dutch soldiers do not go
4 inside there but as an UNMO I could go in there. It's
5 taking a risk obviously, but I went inside there, tried
6 to go behind to see what was going on, but I was
7 prevented from continuing by the Serb soldiers who were
8 there. They told me -- they just showed me to go back,
9 and I just retreated, and that was it at that
10 particular time.
11 Q. Could you take --
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon,
13 I'm sorry for the interruption, but I saw in the
14 transcript on page 92, 22nd line, it mentions the
15 exhibit, your exhibit 53/B, and it should be corrected
16 5/3B. I believe one needs to pay attention because
17 this marking, this kind of numbering could cause
18 problems later on. It is not 53, it is 5/3, and I
19 should like to ask either the court reporters or the
20 interpreters or you to pay attention when exhibits are
21 called out. I'm sorry for having to interrupt you.
22 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Q. Colonel, could you turn your attention,
24 please, to Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/B -- I'm sorry,
25 5/3B. That is on the ELMO in front of you. You said
1 you attempted to go into that particular area.
2 And why was that again?
3 A. The reason why I wanted to go to that
4 particular area was that the Dutch -- some Dutch
5 soldiers had reported that men were being taken behind
6 there, and were not returning. Whenever they were
7 taken behind there, none of them was coming back. So
8 mine was purely to go and investigate what was going
9 on. And according to him, he told me that shooting was
10 going on behind. There was some shooting. They could
11 hear some shooting there. And so I went there to
13 Q. Could you hear some shooting?
14 A. I personally did. I heard some shooting when
15 I tried -- when I attempted to go behind there.
16 Q. Could you take your pointer, please, and
17 indicate the area where you attempted to pass.
18 A. The place I attempted to pass was through
19 here, behind these buildings [indicates].
20 Q. Indicating the buildings that are circled?
21 A. Yes. And that is where I could not be led
23 Q. Were you able to determine the shooting
24 point, where you heard the sounds of the shots coming
1 A. Your Honour, it was not easy to detect, but
2 it was at a close place; it was not far. Because the
3 noise that was coming could -- you know, indicated that
4 the shooting is not happening far from where I was.
5 And it was -- if I can clarify, it was single shots;
6 not bursts, but single shots.
7 Q. Now, let me ask you, Colonel Kingori: I'd
8 like to return to some of your earlier testimony where
9 you said that you personally saw Muslim males having
10 their belongings taken out of their -- off their
11 persons. Did that include their identifications?
12 A. I think one thing to say there is that it's
13 not -- things were not being removed from their
14 pocket. They were forced to remove them. And
15 secondly, that that included the identification and
16 everything. When an individual removed his items,
17 whatever he had, then he would go ahead to another
18 soldier who would physically search whether there is
19 anything inside. But still, if there was anything,
20 they were being forced -- they were being told to
21 remove them and put them down. So this actually
22 included even their identification cards.
23 Q. Now, let me ask you this question, Colonel.
24 Had you had a conversation with any representative of
25 the Bosnian Serb army about what was going to happen to
1 these particular men who had been separated?
2 A. Your Honour, I asked that, and the individual
3 who answered me that question -- that is, the first
4 question I had asked was: Why the separation? Then
5 the second question was: What do they intend to do
6 with these men after they separate them? And the
7 answer was given by the person identified as -- having
8 told me he was the legal officer, he told me that the
9 reason why they are separating the men was for them to
10 use them in exchange to their own prisoners of war who
11 had been taken by the Muslims.
12 Q. Now, in light of what you saw, that is,
13 identification papers and other personal effects being
14 dropped on the ground, what conclusions, if any, did
15 you come to?
16 A. It was a bit difficult now to know what was
17 actually going on, but if you do not -- normally, if
18 you don't want to have someone -- if you do not want
19 someone to have an identification card, it literally
20 means that maybe you don't want him in that way to
21 identify himself or be identified by someone else,
22 because that is the only thing -- that is, the ID
23 card -- the only thing one can use to identify
25 Q. And did you ever go back and inform the
1 person who was identified as the legal officer about
2 why they were required to leave their identifications
3 on the ground?
4 A. Your Honour, I did not ask him exactly, you
5 know, that way, whether -- I mean, as you have put it,
6 I did not put the question as such. The question I had
7 asked was why they were being separated, but not why
8 they were leaving their ID cards there.
9 Q. Did you see -- how long did these separations
10 last on the day of the 12th of July?
11 A. Your Honour, it took quite some time. It
12 took quite some time.
13 Q. And did you see any buses that left the area
14 with just men in them?
15 A. That is correct. I saw.
16 Q. And where were these men being taken from
17 before they were put on the buses?
18 A. Your Honour, there were two sets here. The
19 main one was the men who were being taken from that
20 white building, the ones who had been put together
21 earlier. They were put on their own buses, different
22 from the ones carrying the women and children, and we
23 did not know where their destination was, though they
24 were telling us they are going to take them, I think,
25 to Zvornik or somewhere. But we did not -- they did
1 not clarify in particular what they are going to do
2 with them.
3 Q. Did you have any conversations with any of
4 the men, the Muslim men who had been put on those
6 A. This was an emotional period. This was an
7 emotional time, as far as I was concerned, because some
8 of the men are people we had lived together with in
9 that village, and they were being put in these buses.
10 Even, you know, when they were lined up beside the
11 road, they could cry and shout to us, requesting for
12 assistance, asking us what we can do to help them.
13 They could shout and say, "You know these people are
14 going to kill us, and then you are not doing anything
15 about it." And I mean, to us it was a bit emotional.
16 It was very emotional.
17 And also to them. You could see the fear.
18 There was a lot of fear. They didn't know what would
19 happen. They felt, you know, that they are
20 definitely -- something bad was actually going to be
21 done to them. You know, we could see it, and they
22 could also shout about it. In fact, some of them I
23 even tried to tell them with the literal language of
24 theirs that I could use, telling them not to worry; we
25 have been told where they were being taken to, that
1 is -- what do you call this place? -- Zvornik, and
2 then later on to Tuzla, and they should not fear.
3 Because at least we had been assured nothing bad would
4 happen to them. But you could see there was a lot of
5 fear. They were crying. You know, men -- you can
6 imagine men crying in front of you and seeking
7 assistance from you, assistance which you cannot give.
8 We, as individuals -- in fact, at that time I was, I
9 think, the only UNMO there, and as an individual, there
10 is no assistance I could have given. It was beyond --
11 it had gone beyond my control. And you could see them,
12 you know, crying. It was quite emotional.
13 Q. Colonel Kingori, what was the age range of
14 the males who had been separated and who had been
15 placed in the White House and the other house?
16 A. The men in the White House, those were the
17 younger men, if I can say, because the others who were
18 in the main DutchBat Compound were the older people,
19 the very old, who some of them could hardly walk well.
20 But these ones -- those ones in the White House were
21 the younger, you know, slightly younger people.
22 Q. Who was the youngest person you saw separated
23 on the 12th of July?
24 A. That time they were separating even some very
25 young boys, some as young as 13, 14, and they were
1 telling them to go and join the other men. And several
2 instances I intervened and starting asking the boys,
3 "What is your age?" They would tell me, "I'm 14."
4 And then I would tell the soldiers, "These guys -- this
5 boy is 14 years old. Why are you separating them?"
6 And maybe that way they could allow them to continue.
7 I saw another one, I could do the same.
8 But immediately I turned from that direction
9 and started -- they were still having the same boys,
10 you know, to go and join the men. So I could not be
11 able to cope with the situation. I could not prevent
12 all the younger boys from me being separated, so some
13 of them were actually taken together with the men.
14 Q. Now, let me ask you to turn your attention to
15 the 13th of July. Did the separations that you've
16 described witnessing on the 12th of July continue on
17 the 13th?
18 A. Yes, Your Honour, they did.
19 Q. Can you describe to the Judges the separation
20 process that you saw on the 13th?
21 A. The separation on the 13th was just almost a
22 continuation of what was happening earlier; it was only
23 that now -- it was almost a continuation of the same,
24 as I can see.
25 Q. Now, again, when you say "almost a
1 continuation," were males separated and taken to one of
2 the two locations that you've previously described, and
3 were they forced to abandon their belongings at those
5 A. At this time no men were being taken to
6 that -- to the White House, but at least they were
7 still abandoning their belongings, they were being
8 forced to leave their belongings. Because some of
9 these at that time were those who were in the DutchBat
11 MR. HARMON: Your Honours, I'm going to ask
12 that Prosecutor's Exhibit 75 be played. It's a film
13 clip that lasts approximately three minutes.
14 Q. Colonel, you have seen this film clip
15 before. You are in this film clip. And I'd like you
16 to take a look at this film clip and then you can
17 discuss with the Court your observations about it.
18 MR. HARMON: So if we could please play
19 Prosecutor's Exhibit 75.
20 [Videotape played]
21 MR. HARMON:
22 Q. Is that you, Colonel?
23 A. That's me.
24 Q. Are these the abandoned belongings, Colonel?
25 A. Your Honour, these are the belongings which
1 were abandoned by the men.
2 Q. The man in the blue vest, is that a Serb or a
4 A. That is a Serb soldier.
5 Q. Are these abandoned belongings as well?
6 A. Yes, these are some of the belongings which
7 were abandoned there.
8 Q. One last question about the man who you just
9 identified as a Serb soldier. He was wearing a blue
10 vest. Was that -- what kind of vest was that?
11 A. This was a vest that we used to wear when we
12 were there. It was bullet-proof. I don't you know
13 what we can -- you know, some of them were not actually
14 bullet-proof, but they were to protect our bodies, that
15 is, the chest, from many small arms. And I'm sure it
16 had been stolen from some of the Dutch soldiers.
17 Q. Can you explain to the Judges that particular
18 part of the film clip that they have just seen?
19 A. That particular part was when I noticed the
20 separation, that is, when the men who were being
21 removed from the group and being taken to the White
22 House, and I decided to ask for permission -- I mean,
23 decided to be taken there. I decided to request to be
24 taken to that White House to see what is going on. So
25 in fact I was talking to the Serb soldiers who were
1 there, to take me up there to see what exactly was
2 going on, to prove to them that something was really
3 wrong inside there. Anyway, I was not allowed to go
5 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I know you had
6 indicated 2.15 would be an appropriate time to break,
7 and I therefore would suggest we conclude at this point
8 so we can hear the motions and deal with the motions
9 that have been raised by counsel.
10 Colonel, thank you very much.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon,
12 you have not finished the examination-in-chief of this
13 witness, I assume.
14 MR. HARMON: I have about 10 more minutes,
15 Mr. President.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,
18 Colonel Kingori, we have to finish with your
19 testimony for today. You will have to come back on
20 Monday at 9.30. I hope you will have a possibility to
21 enjoy a nice weekend in The Hague. Have a nice
22 weekend, and we'll see you again on Monday.
23 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, Your
25 [The witness stands down]
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon,
2 I think it was your turn, actually. We have heard the
3 Defence, we have heard their applications, and we were
4 about to hear your response to the said applications.
5 So I will give you the floor so that we can hear your
6 position on the two applications that have been made by
7 the Defence. Maybe you have also some other
8 information that you can provide to us. Maybe some
9 discussion has taken place in the meantime. Let us
10 hear you.
11 MR. HARMON: There has been some discussion
12 that has taken place.
13 In respect of the first application made by
14 the Defence, I understand that application to be that,
15 one, as a matter of principle, the Defence is
16 interested in obtaining additional time in order to
17 permit them to investigate in the event that there is
18 new material testified to by a witness that is not
19 contained in a statement that has been provided to the
20 Defence pursuant to the normal discovery rules. And
21 the second part of their request is to permit the
22 Defence to call back certain witnesses under those
23 circumstances so that the Defence can question those
24 witnesses about the new information after a proper
25 investigation has been completed by the Defence.
1 In respect of that motion, we have no
2 objection to it in principle. We believe, however,
3 Mr. President, that there should be an application made
4 by the Defence on a case-by-case basis when the Defence
5 deems that those certain circumstances have arisen.
6 It's also our position that the showing that would be
7 required by the Defence in order to either gain
8 additional time for an investigation, or calling the
9 witness back, would be, one, a demonstration that the
10 material that needs to be investigated and was not
11 provided previously is material to the Defence, and
12 that after a showing of materiality, then the parties
13 would have an opportunity to make their comments to the
14 Court and the Court could then decide. But one
15 additional condition, in our view, would be if the
16 Defence already has this material and has been provided
17 the material, and is not about information that's new
18 and not contained in the statement, then there would be
19 no opportunity to call back the witness.
20 Cross-examination is the proper time to inquire about
21 information that's contained in the statements. So to
22 reiterate, if it's new information and it's material,
23 we would urge the Court to consider it on a
24 case-by-case basis and permit both sides to address the
25 Court before rendering a decision.
1 So in principle, on those conditions, we have
2 no objection.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
4 Mr. Visnjic, do you wish to add something?
5 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,
6 I should like to make one thing clear. I think there
7 is one slight difference between our two positions. We
8 requested the same treatment, both in respect of the
9 events that were not stated in witness statements, as
10 well as for the witness statements that we received
11 prior to the trial, and after the trial began. We
12 requested the same treatment for both statements. This
13 goes to the quality of the evidence that has been
15 As regards this other condition, the
16 condition of a showing, of the necessity to make a good
17 showing, showing of materiality, I think that this is
18 contained in our material. I believe that we are quite
19 clear in respect of that.
20 Let me just try to broaden the point a little
21 bit. We are requesting the same treatment in respect
22 of events that were not contained in witness
23 statements, as well as the events that are contained in
24 witness statements, but the statements that have been
25 received shortly prior to the beginning of the trial,
1 or after the trial began. And we have to bear in mind,
2 of course, both versions in English and in
3 Serbo-Croatian language as provided by Rule 66. Thank
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
6 very much, Mr. Visnjic. We will examine your
7 application together with the response made here during
8 the discussion, and I believe that the Chamber will
9 soon be able to make its ruling, perhaps on Monday, but
10 probably not at the beginning of the session. I'm
11 telling you this because I myself cannot be present on
12 Tuesday. So Judge Riad and Judge Wald will be sitting
13 on Tuesday, and the session will be presided by
14 Judge Riad.
15 In view of that, I think that we have to try
16 and make a ruling on Monday. And I don't forget that
17 we have another ruling pending, which hasn't been made
18 yet, because it has to be made by the full Chamber,
19 which was not the case this week because the absence of
20 Judge Patricia Wald. We have to wait for her and we
21 will make both rulings next week.
22 I hope that for the time being this is all,
23 but I should perhaps tell you, I do not have my
24 schedule here, but as regards the programme of the
25 Chamber, we're trying really hard to establish, to the
1 extent it is possible, a calendar until the end of the
2 year, including, of course, the months of July, August,
3 September, and up until the end of the year. We will
4 probably have a recess. I think it will be -- anyway,
5 I will provide you with specific information when I
6 have it.
7 However, as regards the following months, we
8 will continue hearing this case until the week which
9 begins on the 1st of May. We have already talked about
10 it. After that, after that week, we will give you
11 enough time to revise your work, to prepare your work,
12 because we will be sitting in another case for at least
13 three weeks in a row.
14 I'm telling you this so that both parties can
15 organise themselves, but I hope that on Monday I will
16 be in a position to give you more precise information,
17 even in respect of the latter half of the year.
18 However, one must bear in mind that this is a
19 provisional schedule. The organisation in itself is
20 not an objective of work, it is simply a means of our
21 work. It can be changed, it may be changed if it is
22 necessary to do so. There are a number of things that
23 cannot be foreseen, and we have to leave enough space,
24 enough time to organise matters accordingly.
25 I see that Mr. Harmon would like to say
2 MR. HARMON: Yes. Thank you. I didn't
3 address yet, Mr. President, the second part of the
4 motion that was made by the Defence, which was an
5 application for more time because of what was, in fact,
6 an omission in the B/C/S version of the amended
7 indictment, and I think the record should contain or
8 refer to the certificate and the nature of the error
9 that was presented and which limited the Defence, my
10 colleagues from the Defence, in understanding the full
11 extent of the indictment, because as I understand it,
12 and I have a copy of the certificate from the
13 registrar, on the French and the English version, in
14 paragraph 24, the word at the end of the sentence of
15 paragraph 24, the word "included" was present, but in
16 the B/C/S version of the amended indictment that was
17 made available to my colleagues, the word "included"
18 was omitted, and it is based on that omission that the
19 Defence is requesting, as I understand their request,
20 additional time to investigate three locations that
21 have been testified about by Mr. Ruez, the first being
22 Nova Kasaba; the second, Konjevic Polje; and the third,
23 the Jadar River, the Defence believing that the list on
24 the indictment that they received was an exclusive
25 list, and in the French and English languages, the
1 authoritative languages of that Tribunal, it was
2 broader than that.
3 Now, I'd like to make clear for the record,
4 as we already argued this motion or a related motion to
5 this, and I won't belabour the point, but the facts
6 that underlined each of these three locations had been
7 provided to the Defence. There were aerial images that
8 were made under Rule 70(B) to the Defence.
9 What the Defence did not see in our
10 presentation, in Mr. Ruez's presentation, are a total
11 of 12 photographs that are found in Prosecutor's
12 Exhibit 13/1, 13/2, 14/5 through 8, 14/11, 17/2, 17/3,
13 and 18/1. Those photographs obviously the Defence
14 could have seen had they made an application for
15 reciprocal discovery under Rule 66(B), but all the
16 information they were entitled to see prior to the
17 commencement of this trial on these particular areas
18 they did see, and they did see that in a timely
20 Having said that, Mr. President, if the Court
21 deems it appropriate that because of the translation
22 error additional time is required for my colleagues to
23 investigate those areas, we certainly would not oppose
24 any decision by this Chamber to allot them additional
25 time, but I think the record has to be clear about the
1 facts that we have made available to them prior to this
2 unfortunate omission.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
4 very much, Mr. Harmon. You may be seated.
5 Let me just remind you that the Chamber has
6 already made a ruling in this matter. It was one of
7 our rulings. I do not want to insist, but I just want
8 to remind you that we do not work on an authoritative
9 basis, and as soon as parties have their reasons for a
10 particular motion, we can always try and revise our
11 schedules. We're not slaves of an organisation or a
13 I understand that the Defence needs some
14 additional time to prepare itself. As soon as reasons
15 can be explained and justified, the Chamber can
16 exercise its authority in an appropriate matter.
17 Thank you very much, Mr. Harmon, for
18 reminding us of this problem, but as regards the
19 specific issues of the inclusion of the three
20 locations, Nova Kasaba, Zeleni Jadar, and Konjevic
21 Polje, the Chamber has already made a ruling.
22 We will, of course, take into account what
23 has been said here. We, in general, are mindful of the
24 needs of the parties in respect of their respective
25 preparations, and we will make another ruling in
1 respect of that next week.
2 All I can do at the end of this day is to
3 wish you a nice weekend. Have a nice weekend,
4 therefore, and we'll see you again on Monday, 9.30.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
6 at 2.32 p.m., to be reconvened on
7 Monday, the 3rd day of April, 2000,
8 at 9.30 a.m.