1. 1 Thursday, 13th April 2000

    2 [Open session]

    3 --- Upon commencing at 9.39 a.m.

    4 [The accused entered court]

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

    6 morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning,

    7 technicians; good morning to our interpreters, our

    8 legal clerks; good morning, counsel for the

    9 Prosecution, counsel for the Defence; good morning,

    10 General Krstic. We will resume our hearing in the

    11 Krstic case. The appearances are the same, for the

    12 record. And if I could have the witness brought into

    13 the courtroom, please. I believe it's still Witness N.

    14 MR. HARMON: Yes. He's a protected witness,

    15 and we'll have to draw the blinds.

    16 Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours;

    17 good morning, counsel.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] For the

    19 public, let me just say that the blinds will be pulled

    20 down while the witness is being brought in, and after

    21 that they will be pulled up again.

    22 [The witness entered court]

    23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

    24 morning, Witness N. Can you hear me?

    25 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can. Good morning.

  2. 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Have you

    2 had a restful night? Did you sleep well?

    3 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be

    5 seated now.

    6 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let me just

    8 remind you that you are still under an oath and that

    9 you will continue answering questions that will be put

    10 to you by Mr. Harmon. Thank you.

    11 Mr. Harmon, you have the floor.

    12 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. President.

    13 WITNESS: WITNESS N [Resumed]

    14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

    15 Examined by Mr. Harmon: [Cont'd]

    16 Q. Good morning, Witness N.

    17 A. Good morning.

    18 Q. When we concluded your testimony yesterday,

    19 you were describing your journey from a warehouse in

    20 Bratunac to a school somewhere in the area of Zvornik,

    21 and you had left the warehouse sometime on the 13th of

    22 July; is that correct?

    23 A. Yes, it is.

    24 Q. Now, approximately what time did you arrive

    25 at the school that was located in the Zvornik area?

  3. 1 A. It was past midnight.

    2 Q. So you arrived in the early morning, then, of

    3 the 14th of July?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Had you ever been to that school before?

    6 A. No, I had not.

    7 Q. Witness N, would you tell the Judges what

    8 happened once you arrived at the school.

    9 A. Once we arrived in the schoolyard, the buses

    10 stopped and the Serb soldiers approached the buses.

    11 The buses opened -- the doors of the buses opened and

    12 people started coming out in columns. They were going

    13 in the direction of a gym, of a gymnasium, and they

    14 were getting into that gym. At that moment, the doors

    15 of my bus opened as well and we got out, and we passed

    16 by some Serb soldiers and went in the direction of the

    17 gym, and we entered the gym and sat down.

    18 Q. Now, when you got off the bus, Witness N,

    19 approximately how many Bosnian Serb soldiers did you

    20 see?

    21 A. Between 15 and 20, 15 to 20 soldiers.

    22 Q. And do you recall how those soldiers were

    23 dressed?

    24 A. They were dressed in camouflage uniform.

    25 Q. Do you remember the colour of the

  4. 1 camouflage? Was it a police camouflage uniform or was

    2 it an army camouflage uniform?

    3 A. An army camouflage uniform.

    4 Q. Now, you said you went into a gym.

    5 MR. HARMON: If I could have Prosecutor's

    6 Exhibit --

    7 A. Yes.

    8 MR. HARMON: -- 19/5 placed on the ELMO.

    9 Q. Witness N, I'm going to show you a

    10 photograph, an interior photograph of a gymnasium, and

    11 I'm going to ask you if you can identify this

    12 particular photograph. The usher will place it on the

    13 ELMO and you'll be able to see it on the monitor in

    14 front of you.

    15 MR. HARMON: It's not very visible on the

    16 monitor. Perhaps, Mr. Usher, if you could show this

    17 photograph to the witness first and then we can place

    18 it on the monitor.

    19 Q. Witness N, is this the gymnasium where you

    20 and the other men were brought in that school area?

    21 A. Yes, it is.

    22 Q. All right. Now --

    23 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. Usher. I've

    24 concluded with that exhibit.

    25 Q. After you arrived and the people on your bus

  5. 1 and the people in your convoy, did other Muslim men

    2 continue to arrive and continue to enter into the

    3 gymnasium?

    4 A. Yes, they did, but when it dawned, after it

    5 had dawned, the groups were still being brought in and

    6 they were taken into the gymnasium as well. This

    7 lasted until I don't remember what time, but after

    8 that, at one point General Mladic appeared at the door,

    9 and because we were very crowded in that gymnasium and

    10 because we were not given any bread or water, we cried

    11 out, all in one voice, "Why are you torturing us

    12 here?" And then he said, "Well, your government does

    13 not want you, and I have to take care of you." One

    14 group of you will be taken to Kladusa, to Fikret Abdic,

    15 and one group will be transported to Bijeljina. You

    16 will also be given water when you get out of the gym.

    17 He left, and then later --

    18 Q. Let me interrupt you right there for just a

    19 second. Can you estimate the number of men who were in

    20 the gym with you when the gym was at its fullest

    21 capacity?

    22 A. About 2.500.

    23 Q. Now, at any point in time while you were in

    24 that gymnasium, did Bosnian Serb soldiers come into the

    25 gymnasium and shoot their weapons, shoot their guns?

  6. 1 A. Yes, they did. We would from time to time

    2 start shouting, because we couldn't take it anymore.

    3 We were suffocating. There was no air, there was no

    4 water. And then we would start shouting and they would

    5 then open fire and shoot above our heads. And then

    6 everything would be silent for a while and they would

    7 say, "Just keep quiet, else you will all be shot."

    8 Q. Now, Witness N, continue describing what

    9 occurred to you and to the other men at that gymnasium,

    10 please.

    11 A. Then the Bosnian Serbs who were standing

    12 guard issued some orders. There was a group of them

    13 standing to the left of the door, of the main door, and

    14 they ordered men to get out of the gymnasium through

    15 that door. They said that they would be taken

    16 somewhere. And the Bosnian Serb soldiers then brought

    17 some stripes of cloth with which they blindfolded us,

    18 and they gave some people some water and left

    19 somewhere. A column would march for a while and then

    20 it would stop, and this would last for a couple of

    21 minutes and then another column would be leaving the

    22 gymnasium after that.

    23 When people starting getting out, we heard

    24 somewhere, coming from the distance, bursts of

    25 gunfire. Then it would stop, then everything would be

  7. 1 quiet for a while, and after a while we would hear

    2 rifles being fired again, again at the same spot. And

    3 some elderly people said at that point, "They're taking

    4 everyone. They're killing everyone." And in the

    5 evening hours, between 7.00, 7.30 p.m., it was my turn

    6 to leave the gymnasium, together with some other

    7 people. I drank some water, and I was blindfolded, and

    8 I boarded a small truck which is called tamic.

    9 After it got full, it set out, and a red

    10 vehicle was following the truck and there was one

    11 soldier with an automatic rifle there and he was

    12 threatening us. He didn't let us speak. He said, "I

    13 will kill you all."

    14 We did not travel for very long. At one

    15 point we turned off the road and went into a field,

    16 where we saw a lot of dead people. The TAM truck

    17 stopped and two Serb soldiers approached the truck.

    18 They opened the backside of the truck and they ordered

    19 us to get out. And I was the last one in the truck, so

    20 I was taken out first. And they showed me where I was

    21 supposed to stand, next to some dead bodies. And

    22 everybody was lined up like that, in several rows, with

    23 their backs facing them.

    24 The tamic left immediately, and immediately

    25 after it had left, we heard automatic rifles being

  8. 1 fired. Everybody fell down at that point, and those

    2 who were not killed, who were still giving some signs

    3 of life, were shot at individually, were killed

    4 individually. I didn't dare move. I was just looking

    5 downwards towards the ground. And when the TAM truck

    6 left, when it moved, I turned around and I realised

    7 that it was taking people to another location. It was

    8 the same kind of truck, the same TAM truck, and it was

    9 also followed by a red car.

    10 And after a while the red car came back, and

    11 a little later this same TAM truck came to my location

    12 and it brought people to our location again, some 10 to

    13 15 meters away from me. Men were again being ordered

    14 out of the truck and taken out. And the red car also

    15 stopped and Ratko Mladic got out of the car, together

    16 with the soldiers who were accompanying him, and they

    17 were watching people being taken out of the TAM truck

    18 and being lined up and executed.

    19 After they had finished their job, Ratko

    20 Mladic sat down in the same red car and he went back in

    21 the direction of the gymnasium.

    22 They continued bringing people and killing

    23 people and this lasted until dusk. Behind my back

    24 there was an excavator who was digging a mass grave.

    25 Q. Now, let me interrupt you right there for a

  9. 1 minute, Witness N. I want to clarify a couple of

    2 points in your testimony.

    3 You said when you left the school, a

    4 blindfold was put over your eyes, and you testified

    5 when you were in the truck in route to the execution

    6 field, you could see a red car that was following you.

    7 How was it, if you were blindfolded, you could see a

    8 red car that was following you?

    9 A. When I was blindfolded, immediately when they

    10 had blindfolded me, I moved the blindfold a little bit

    11 upwards so that I could see. (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted). But they weren't paying much

    14 attention to whether people were taking off their

    15 blindfolds or not. They were simply telling us not to

    16 talk and that was all.

    17 Q. Now, Witness N, can you describe the soldiers

    18 who were the executioners? How were they dressed; do

    19 you remember?

    20 A. Yes, I remember. They were dressed in dark

    21 green camouflage uniforms.

    22 Q. All right. Let's carry on with your account

    23 of the events on the 14th of July. You said, before I

    24 interrupted you, that you had seen some kind of

    25 mechanical equipment doing something. Could you tell

  10. 1 the Judges what you saw and what you saw it doing.

    2 A. I saw an excavator. It was behind my back.

    3 It had a bucket, a kind of shovel. And it's a kind of

    4 machine that can both dig into the earth and also

    5 transport various material.

    6 Q. Now, when you saw that excavator, was it dark

    7 outside or was it light?

    8 A. It was daylight.

    9 Q. Okay. And how long did that excavator work

    10 in your vicinity?

    11 A. It worked until nightfall. When it became

    12 dark, another excavator arrived and they switched on

    13 their headlights.

    14 At that point, they were bringing bodies to

    15 one location only, and they were killing people at that

    16 location and the lights of the excavators were on and

    17 they kept killing men. And this continued until they

    18 finished off everyone. And when the last TAM truck

    19 arrived, somebody said, "That's it, there's no one

    20 left." One of the Serb soldiers asked, "Are we going

    21 back with you?" And this other man replied, "No,

    22 you're not going back with me. Maybe there will be

    23 another truck coming back to pick you up, and then you

    24 will go back. If it doesn't show up, then you will

    25 have to stand guard all night."

  11. 1 Then after the truck had left, they remained

    2 standing and smoking next to the excavator. After

    3 that, a similar truck arrived with its lights on and I

    4 could hear people talk, but I didn't make out what they

    5 were saying.

    6 Then they switched off their lights, and we

    7 could see well, because it was moonlight. Then

    8 everybody sat down in the excavator and the truck and

    9 they went in the direction of the gymnasium.

    10 After they had left, I stood up and I started

    11 shouting. I wanted to see if there was anyone alive so

    12 we could leave together.

    13 Q. Before we get to that part of your testimony,

    14 do I understand your testimony correctly, then, that

    15 while the excavators were working and while it was

    16 dark, additional men, Muslim men were being brought to

    17 the execution site and were being executed in the front

    18 of the lights of these excavators?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Now, let me show you two exhibits.

    21 MR. HARMON: And before I show you these

    22 exhibits, Mr. Dubuisson, it will be Prosecutor's

    23 Exhibit 20/5 and 20/8.

    24 Q. Immediately behind the execution field where

    25 the men had been killed, can you describe the terrain?

  12. 1 MR. HARMON: Not yet, Mr. Usher.

    2 Q. Can you describe the terrain, Witness N. Was

    3 it level, was it -- did it have other types of physical

    4 features?

    5 A. It was more or less level, flat; not

    6 completely, but almost. But where the excavator was

    7 digging, there was a slope, a little hill. There

    8 wasn't much grass on it. It was a kind of field and it

    9 was not completely flat.

    10 Q. And behind the grass field, what was there?

    11 A. There was a small forest above the area where

    12 the excavator was working, up the hill, up the slope, a

    13 small forest.

    14 Q. Now, while you were at the execution site,

    15 did you notice any unique kind of physical structure

    16 that was in the area?

    17 A. I noticed a kind of iron fence, iron

    18 railing. I don't know whether it was part of a bridge

    19 or whether it was just a fence that was there as a kind

    20 of protection. This is what I noticed.

    21 Q. Now, I've shown you Prosecutor's Exhibit

    22 20/5.

    23 MR. HARMON: And if you could put that on the

    24 ELMO, please, Mr. Usher.

    25 Q. You've had an opportunity to see this; is

  13. 1 that correct, Witness N?

    2 A. Yes, I have. I saw the same fence there in

    3 the immediate vicinity of the grave where the execution

    4 site was.

    5 MR. HARMON: Now could you next place

    6 Prosecutor's Exhibit 20/8 on the ELMO. Thank you.

    7 Q. Do you see that same fence in Prosecutor's

    8 Exhibit 20/8?

    9 A. Yes, I do.

    10 Q. Can you point it out, please?

    11 A. [Indicates].

    12 MR. HARMON: Indicating, for the record, the

    13 small rail above the tunnel leading underneath the

    14 railroad tracks.

    15 Q. Thank you, Witness N. Now, therefore, does

    16 this location that's depicted in this photograph appear

    17 to you to be the same location where you were at the

    18 time of the executions?

    19 A. Yes, I think it's the same location where the

    20 executions took place.

    21 Q. Now, Witness N, I interrupted you when you

    22 had testified that you had stood up after everybody had

    23 left. What happened then?

    24 A. I called out is there anyone alive for us to

    25 go? And one nearby answered back and said he was

  14. 1 alive. He got up, and we left that location and

    2 crossed the pastures and turned left uphill into a wood

    3 there.

    4 In the wood, we sat down to have a rest. And

    5 then we heard shots at the same spot. The man with me

    6 said, "There they are. They've come back again." And

    7 I said "Let them." Then we saw another shot closer to

    8 us. And then he said, "They must have seen our traces

    9 through the high grass," because there was moonlight.

    10 As we felt them coming after us, we turned to

    11 the right and entered a thick thicket on our stomachs.

    12 They were following us, they shot into the woods, and

    13 then we wondered where we should go. And then we

    14 thought let's go to the railway track and retrace our

    15 steps. The railway track was immediately nearby.

    16 So when they went back to the place where

    17 they started shooting, we got up and went through the

    18 woods towards Tuzla.

    19 So the next day, when it dawned, another man

    20 appeared on the hill who had been there at the

    21 execution site like us. He joined us and continued

    22 with us and we crossed into free territory at Nezvuk.

    23 Q. What date was that?

    24 A. The date was the 19th. I think it was a

    25 Wednesday.

  15. 1 Q. Now, one last question: When you stood up,

    2 were you able to look around the execution field and

    3 were you able to estimate the number of bodies that

    4 were laying in that field?

    5 A. It seemed to us that there were more than we

    6 had seen in the gym. That's what it looked like to us.

    7 Q. All right. Witness N, I've concluded my

    8 examination of you.

    9 MR. HARMON: Mr. President --

    10 Q. Now it's the time for the Defence lawyers to

    11 examine you, Witness N. Thank you very much.

    12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    13 Mr. Harmon.

    14 Witness N, you are now going to answer

    15 questions put to you by Mr. Petrusic, the Defence

    16 counsel for Mr. Krstic.

    17 Mr. Petrusic, you have the floor

    18 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic:

    19 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    20 and good morning Your Honours; my learned friends from

    21 the Prosecution.

    22 Q. Good morning, Witness.

    23 A. Good morning, Mr. Lawyer.

    24 Q. When you reached the warehouse in Bratunac on

    25 the 12th of July, people started to be taken out in the

  16. 1 evening, Muslims started to be taken out?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. They took out Hamdija Efendic?

    4 A. No, Hamed Efendic.

    5 Q. Yes, I'm sorry, Hamed. Hamed Efendic was the

    6 president of the Party of Democratic Action of

    7 Srebrenica?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Did they look for him by name and take him

    10 out because he was the president?

    11 A. They brought him there separately, and they

    12 called him out specifically to come out, but they

    13 didn't say why he was being taken out, whether it was

    14 because he was the president or not.

    15 Q. Was it your conclusion that that was the

    16 reason why they took him out?

    17 A. I don't know.

    18 Q. Do you know what happened to Hamed?

    19 A. A rifle shot was heard and one of those, your

    20 Serb soldiers said, "He's killed, he's finished. Don't

    21 shoot again."

    22 Q. And the others that were taken out were

    23 called out by their first and last names?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Or were they called out by the village they

  17. 1 came from?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. So they were looking for particular people?

    4 A. Yes, from particular places.

    5 Q. They looked for Ibran Mustafic as well,

    6 didn't they?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Ibran Mustafic was politically very active, I

    9 think. He was president of the municipality of

    10 Srebrenica?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. In one of your earlier statements, you said

    13 that they killed Ibran Mustafic and that he didn't come

    14 back --

    15 A. That he didn't come back. What happened to

    16 him, there was a kind of argument heard between him and

    17 the Serb guards. He didn't come back into the gym.

    18 What happened, I don't know.

    19 Q. You also said that you heard from soldiers

    20 who were outside, the words "he's finished"?

    21 A. Hamed, yes.

    22 Q. Witness N, I should like to show you the

    23 statement you gave to the State Security Service in

    24 Tuzla on the 25th of July, 1995.

    25 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] It will be

  18. 1 Exhibit D-17.

    2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] For Your

    3 Honours, it is page two which has been highlighted, the

    4 second sentence in the highlighted passage.

    5 Q. Witness N, this is your statement, isn't it?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. The second sentence in the highlighted part

    8 in the first paragraph says, "After that, they called

    9 out Ibran Mustafic, son of Mujo, former head of

    10 Srebrenica municipality and deputy in the BH

    11 parliament, the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and

    12 killed him with a blunt object. I did not see them

    13 beat him, but I heard the blows and his cries and a

    14 Chetnik who said, 'He's finished.'"

    15 Did you make that statement to the State

    16 Security Service?

    17 A. Well, certainly I can't remember, but I'm not

    18 denying that I said that as well, because if that is

    19 what I said, that is what they said; I didn't add or

    20 detract from anything that I personally did not see or

    21 hear.

    22 Q. But Ibran Mustafic is alive?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Witness N, during those days, you saw General

    25 Mladic on a number of occasions, you even spoke to him;

  19. 1 I could put it that way.

    2 A. Yes. Only once I asked him a question.

    3 Q. One of those questions was on the 13th of

    4 July, 1995, in the warehouse, after you had spent the

    5 night in the warehouse in Bratunac, in the morning,

    6 when you addressed him with the words: "What are you

    7 doing with us? Why are you killing people? Why are

    8 you not taking us to be exchanged?" This is also from

    9 the same statement that you made, the second paragraph

    10 of the English version.

    11 MR. PETRUSIC [Interpretation] And both Your

    12 Honours and the Prosecutor have this document.

    13 Q. What was General Mladic's reply to your

    14 statement that people were being killed?

    15 A. He said, "You will no longer be killed. It

    16 was not possible to come to an agreement earlier on.

    17 If that agreement had been reached, this wouldn't have

    18 happened. We have come to an agreement now. You're

    19 going to Kalisija. Count yourselves so that I can

    20 designate transportation."

    21 Q. Did he ask you who was killing men?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. In your further contacts, did you tell him

    24 that this was happening?

    25 A. No, I did not.

  20. 1 Q. When they -- I may be wrong, but I think it

    2 was on the 14th of July when they brought you to this

    3 meadow for execution. You again saw Mladic?

    4 A. I did.

    5 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I would like

    6 to ask the usher to place on the ELMO Prosecutor's

    7 Exhibit 20/8, for the witness to try to explain to us.

    8 Q. Can you tell us, on this photograph, where

    9 did that tamic come to a halt, the small truck that

    10 brought you there?

    11 A. Roughly here, somewhere here [indicates].

    12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] For the

    13 record, the witness is pointing to the far right side

    14 of the photograph, midway up.

    15 Q. Where did they take your group?

    16 A. Here [indicates].

    17 Q. That is where the truck stopped?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. And where did they take your group?

    20 A. My group, here [indicates].

    21 Q. How far was that from the truck?

    22 A. I don't know which truck, because the truck

    23 didn't come once; as the truck moved away, the next

    24 groups came, because they were killing one after

    25 another. If the first truck was five to ten meters,

  21. 1 about five meters, then the second came, and the third

    2 was up here [indicates]. And they went on like that,

    3 in a line.

    4 Q. So in relation to the truck, and you told us

    5 the spot where it was, your group was executed right

    6 next to the truck?

    7 A. As soon as the truck moved away, the group

    8 was liquidated.

    9 Q. Please, where was your body, or rather in

    10 what position was it in relation to this small thicket

    11 we see to the left?

    12 A. My head was turned this way and my legs

    13 towards the thicket.

    14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I think it is

    15 clear for the record, Your Honour.

    16 Q. And so from that position you saw Mladic

    17 arriving?

    18 A. I did.

    19 Q. Were you able to hear him say anything?

    20 A. I could not, because the truck's engine was

    21 still on while they were unloading the men, so that the

    22 engine was on and I couldn't hear whether he was

    23 talking or not.

    24 Q. You remained on that spot for several hours,

    25 until the last group that arrived was executed?

  22. 1 A. That is what somebody said: When the last

    2 truck arrived, there were no more, that it was all

    3 over.

    4 Q. So you didn't move from there?

    5 A. I did. When night fell and when they turned

    6 on the lights, I took shelter. It was cloudy and it

    7 started to drizzle, so the lights were not on me, and I

    8 drew myself from under that dead pile and I went to the

    9 left. And after a couple of meters I was free and I

    10 lay there until they finished it all.

    11 Q. So you abandoned the spot; you left the spot

    12 where you were originally and moved a couple of meters

    13 away. From that spot did you notice anything?

    14 A. I noticed a truck coming, with men, and saw

    15 the dead in front of me.

    16 Q. And did you see from that spot Ratko Mladic

    17 coming four or five times?

    18 A. No. Only once.

    19 Q. In your statement that you have before you

    20 that you saw four or five times -- just a moment,

    21 please. Just a moment, please. We're talking about a

    22 particular time and place, this particular place, where

    23 you say --

    24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I think in the

    25 English version that is page 3, and the last

  23. 1 highlighted paragraph.

    2 Q. -- and I quote:

    3 "While I lay there, the blood of the dead was

    4 covering me. The Chetniks were bringing new groups in

    5 the tamic and killing them.

    6 "When dark fell, about an hour after I had

    7 been brought there, I took advantage of the Chetniks'

    8 carelessness and crawled into some bushes, where I

    9 hid. From that place I saw them bringing new groups in

    10 a tamic and killing them by the light of the headlights

    11 of the two excavators, as they had also brought a

    12 second excavator to this spot. While I lay there, I

    13 saw Ratko Mladic, bareheaded, come up behind the tamic

    14 four or five times in a red car and watch the

    15 executions."

    16 A. The translation is wrong. A red car escorted

    17 every tamic, and Ratko Mladic appeared only once. And

    18 I saw Ratko Mladic in all six times, so this must be an

    19 error in the translation. I never said that Ratko

    20 Mladic came every time. And there was a red car

    21 escorting each of the tamic trucks.

    22 Q. Witness N, I wasn't showing you the

    23 translation; I was showing you your statement given to

    24 the State Security Service of the Republic of

    25 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

  24. 1 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

    2 I have no more questions.

    3 Witness N, thank you.

    4 THE WITNESS: Thank you too.

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

    6 very much, Mr. Petrusic.

    7 Mr. Harmon, any additional questions,

    8 please?

    9 MR. HARMON: Just a few, Mr. President.

    10 Re-examined by Mr. Harmon:

    11 Q. Witness N, you were asked by my colleague

    12 about the individual named Hamed Efendic, who was the

    13 president of the SDA political party in Srebrenica.

    14 Was Mr. Efendic an influential member of the Srebrenica

    15 Muslim community?

    16 A. Until the war, he was. When the war started,

    17 he had no authority; other people were in command of

    18 Srebrenica.

    19 Q. I understand, but was he an esteemed and

    20 highly regarded member of the community even though he

    21 didn't have a political position?

    22 A. Nothing in particular. If he did have a

    23 political position, he didn't have any political

    24 influence. He wasn't particularly held in high esteem.

    25 Q. Ibran Mustafic, who was the former head of

  25. 1 the Srebrenica municipality and was a deputy in the

    2 Bosnia-Herzegovina parliament, was he someone who was

    3 influential and esteemed within the Muslim community of

    4 Srebrenica?

    5 A. He was until the war. He was more esteemed.

    6 But when the war started, he meant nothing for

    7 Srebrenica either.

    8 Q. Now, after the -- strike that. While you

    9 were in the warehouse, you said that the Bosnian Serbs

    10 would come in and they would call out the names of

    11 individuals. Is that correct?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Did you know all of the individuals whose

    14 names were being called?

    15 A. I didn't know any one of them, any one of

    16 those men.

    17 Q. Did it appear to you that, at least in part,

    18 when the Bosnian Serbs were calling out names, that

    19 they were selecting people who they were fully aware of

    20 and who they wanted to identify?

    21 A. They called out the name of the village and

    22 they would say, "People from that village should get

    23 up." Whether those people who got up knew one another,

    24 I don't know. But before that, they would come and

    25 they would know one another, but I didn't know our men,

  26. 1 nor the Serb soldiers. I didn't know either. They

    2 spoke to each other as if they were acquaintances:

    3 "Where are you? Where have you been? Where's your

    4 family?" And then this man on our side would ask the

    5 soldier about his family, and that is how they spoke.

    6 But I didn't know anyone among the Serb soldiers or

    7 among the people -- the Bosniaks who were talking to

    8 them.

    9 Q. Witness N, thank you very much.

    10 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. President.

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

    12 very much, Mr. Harmon.

    13 Judge Riad.

    14 JUDGE RIAD: Yes, I have a couple of

    15 questions, Mr. President

    16 Questioned by the Court:

    17 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Witness N.

    18 A. Good morning, Your Honour.

    19 JUDGE RIAD: I would like to understand

    20 perhaps globally the main features of your testimony;

    21 first, the phases of execution you mentioned. I'm

    22 trying to follow you. You said they would be calling

    23 on some important people, prominent people, they would

    24 go out, you would hear cries, they would not come

    25 back. And you mentioned Hamed Efendic and Ibran

  27. 1 Mustafic, or whatever. These people, if I understood

    2 rightly, were privileged to have special treatment, to

    3 be tortured or anything, but they were selected.

    4 The second phase were people coming out in

    5 lines, blindfolded, and you were not among them yet.

    6 These people, if I understood rightly, were called upon

    7 from villages, asking each group to come, but not by

    8 names. And if I understood rightly, they were executed

    9 immediately out, because you heard the fire while you

    10 were inside and they never came back.

    11 Then at 7.30 you --

    12 A. Yes.

    13 JUDGE RIAD: -- were blindfolded and you went

    14 in a small truck. I understand this was a third phase,

    15 people taken away to be executed. And the truck would

    16 go back and bring other people, you mentioned. They

    17 would be put on rows and so on. Did I understand you

    18 rightly? Was that exactly the evolution of the

    19 situation?

    20 A. As the people were getting out of the gym,

    21 they were being blindfolded. First they would give the

    22 person some water, and then afterwards he would be

    23 blindfolded and then we would get on a truck. And this

    24 continued for a while until they finished. And we were

    25 then taken, still blindfolded, to a field, a pasture,

  28. 1 where we were then being lined up and executed.

    2 JUDGE RIAD: The bottom line is that

    3 everybody in the gym finished by going out, because you

    4 stated 7.30.

    5 A. Yes, everybody.

    6 JUDGE RIAD: Everybody, because you also

    7 mentioned that --

    8 A. Some people remained in the gym after me, and

    9 people were still being brought in after me. And at

    10 one point somebody said, "It's all over," when the last

    11 truck full of people came. And then the man asked the

    12 soldier whether he wanted to go back with him, and he

    13 said he wouldn't, and he said that maybe there would be

    14 another truck coming back and that they would go back;

    15 if not, they would stay there and keep guard all night.

    16 JUDGE RIAD: I understood. I just want to

    17 know the selection which happened at the beginning,

    18 which included prominent people, was just at the

    19 beginning, taking them out, and then you hear them

    20 suffering and shouting. But after that there was no

    21 selection; everybody was taken out?

    22 A. After that everybody was taken out. There

    23 were people who wanted to go first because they were so

    24 thirsty. They just wanted to get some water. They

    25 didn't care whether they would be killed or not. But

  29. 1 they didn't let us do that. There was supposed to be a

    2 line; only once you have reached the entrance you could

    3 get some water. There was a small room there with a

    4 table in it where people were being given water, and at

    5 the same time two soldiers would be blindfolding the

    6 person. And after that the person was taken to the TAM

    7 truck.

    8 JUDGE RIAD: I understood that. So they were

    9 all taken. But then you mentioned that when you looked

    10 at the field after the executions took place, you found

    11 more dead people than there were in the gym, so not

    12 only all the people in the gym were killed, but

    13 apparently other people came from other places. Is

    14 that right?

    15 A. No. This is how it seemed because we were

    16 crowded in the gym while we were in the gym, and the

    17 group appeared to be larger once we were in the field,

    18 but it wasn't. They were not bringing people from

    19 elsewhere. But because people were so crammed in the

    20 gymnasium, it didn't seem that they were -- that there

    21 were that many. But once they were lying dead on the

    22 field, the number seemed greater. This is only how it

    23 seemed but they were not bringing other people.

    24 JUDGE RIAD: But it was all the people in the

    25 gym in your opinion?

  30. 1 A. Only the people from the gym, yes.

    2 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you said that in the gym

    3 there were some people that could hardly move. You

    4 said they were over 60, but people over 60 can move.

    5 Were they also executed?

    6 A. All of those who got out of the gym were

    7 killed, whether they were young or old. As soon as

    8 they could get up and reach the truck, they were taken

    9 away. And afterwards, they didn't have to walk.

    10 JUDGE RIAD: So you saw them being taken

    11 away, you saw them being taken away. They were not

    12 spared; children or old people.

    13 A. No, there were no children, and the elderly

    14 people were not spared.

    15 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you heard the soldiers at a

    16 certain stage introducing themselves to one another.

    17 Do you remember what they said, which divisions they

    18 belonged to?

    19 A. No, they didn't.

    20 JUDGE RIAD: Because I heard you saying that

    21 some of them were saying they belonged to the wolves

    22 and others say, "We belong to Arkanovac."

    23 A. Well, yes, yes, I did say that. That is how

    24 they addressed each other. We didn't call them that

    25 way. It was the way they were addressing each other.

  31. 1 JUDGE RIAD: What did they say?

    2 A. They would say, for example, "This one is an

    3 Arkanovac," and then the man would say, "Yes, I am."

    4 And he would ask him then, "Are you from the Drina

    5 Wolves or some other wolves," I don't know, and then he

    6 said, "Yes, I am, and I'm not ashamed of it." This is

    7 how they were addressing each other, but I didn't know

    8 where they were from.

    9 JUDGE RIAD: Do you remember some of the

    10 names?

    11 A. No.

    12 JUDGE RIAD: But why did you mention Drina

    13 Wolves then? Did they mention it?

    14 A. Yes, amongst themselves.

    15 JUDGE RIAD: Among themselves. Did you

    16 notice any accent? Were these an accent of Bosnia or

    17 Croatia or Serbia or you don't remember?

    18 A. I don't remember. All those accents were the

    19 same for me. I am not very familiar with different

    20 accents. I don't know where people come from. All I

    21 can tell is that they are from the former Yugoslavia.

    22 JUDGE RIAD: I think you served before in the

    23 Bosnian army, you said, so you don't know the accents.

    24 A. No.

    25 JUDGE RIAD: You were in the Bosnian army or

  32. 1 in the Yugoslav army?

    2 A. I served in the Yugoslav army, and during the

    3 war before the area became protected, I served with the

    4 Bosnian army.

    5 JUDGE RIAD: Now, just for our knowledge, how

    6 long -- you said that you stayed without moving until

    7 all the soldiers went away. How long did this last,

    8 staying without moving, do you remember?

    9 A. No, I couldn't tell you exactly how long, but

    10 it was quite dark, so it must have been around 11.00

    11 p.m. but I cannot be precise. And after that, I left.

    12 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

    13 A. Thank you too, Your Honour.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

    15 very much, Judge Riad.

    16 Judge Wald.

    17 JUDGE WALD: Witness N, I would just like to

    18 clear one point in your answer to Judge Riad.

    19 I thought I heard you testify that when the

    20 soldiers were saying, "I am from the Arkan," or "I am

    21 Drina Wolves," that was in the Bratunac warehouse not

    22 in the gym at Zvornik; is that right? That's -- when I

    23 read over my notes of your testimony yesterday --

    24 A. In Bratunac.

    25 JUDGE WALD: -- yes, I just wanted to clear

  33. 1 that up, where that happened, okay.

    2 A. Yes.

    3 JUDGE WALD: The second question I have is:

    4 You said that the soldiers at the execution site wore

    5 dark green camouflage uniforms. And before that, you

    6 said that the soldiers around the gym guarding you or

    7 transporting you wore green camouflage uniforms.

    8 Was there a difference between those two

    9 kinds of uniforms of those that were performing the

    10 executions and those that were transporting or guarding

    11 you or were they the same kind of green camouflage

    12 uniforms?

    13 A. There was only one man in the red vehicle

    14 which was following the TAM truck who was wearing a one

    15 colour grey uniform. Everybody else wore multicoloured

    16 camouflage uniforms and this other man was wearing a

    17 grey uniform.

    18 JUDGE WALD: Okay. But the ones that wore

    19 the green camouflage uniforms, it was the same kind of

    20 uniforms; the men doing the executing and the men

    21 guarding and transporting. Okay.

    22 Now, when General Mladic came to the gym and

    23 said that the prisoners would be transported -- would

    24 be exchanged, how much time lapsed between then and the

    25 time that they brought in the blindfolds and began to

  34. 1 take the men out blindfolded to the execution field?

    2 It was the same day, you testified, but how

    3 much time would you say between the time Mladic came

    4 and said you were going to go to a prisoner exchange in

    5 the gym, and then when they brought in the blindfolds

    6 and began to get people ready to go to the execution

    7 field?

    8 A. When we were in the warehouse in Bratunac, he

    9 told us that we would be exchanged and that we should

    10 count ourselves, and that transport would be provided.

    11 But this is not where they brought the blindfolds, not

    12 in Bratunac.

    13 JUDGE WALD: I understand that. But you also

    14 testified, you also testified both today, and in your

    15 earlier statement that when you were in the gym, when

    16 you were in the gym in Zvornik, that Mladic came?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 JUDGE WALD: So I'm asking you what was the

    19 time between that time when he came in the gym and

    20 talked about -- you said he talked about saying that

    21 you would be exchanged and the time they began to

    22 blindfold you and take you in the trucks to the

    23 execution field. Was it an hour, two hours, or what?

    24 A. In the gym, Mladic did not say that we would

    25 be exchanged. He said that we would be sent to Kladusa

  35. 1 and Bijeljina and it was only in Bratunac that he said

    2 that we would be exchanged.

    3 JUDGE WALD: All right. But the question

    4 remains: How much time between whatever he said in the

    5 gym and the time when they began to take you out?

    6 A. Two to three hours.

    7 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you. And my last

    8 question to you is: At the execution site, you said

    9 that Mladic did come in a red car. How long did he

    10 stay in your -- how long did you observe him to say at

    11 the execution site? You testified today one time you

    12 saw him in the red car at the execution site.

    13 A. He stayed until all men were taken off the

    14 TAM truck and until they were all executed.

    15 JUDGE WALD: Well, roughly how much time did

    16 that take?

    17 A. Well, there were 25 to 30 people that had to

    18 be taken off the TAM truck, and then they had to line

    19 them up and execute them. I don't know how much time

    20 that would be. You could perhaps judge for yourself.

    21 JUDGE WALD: Well, I was not there; you

    22 were. The -- would you say half an hour, an hour?

    23 A. Well, not more than ten minutes.

    24 JUDGE WALD: All right, thank you.

    25 MR. HARMON: Pardon the interruption,

  36. 1 Mr. President, but I was examining the transcript as

    2 Judge Wald was asking questions, and there was no

    3 answer recorded on the transcript to Judge Wald's

    4 question about whether the people who were wearing the

    5 green camouflage uniforms at the execution sites were

    6 wearing the same kind of green camouflage uniforms

    7 guarding and transporting the prisoners.

    8 To that question put by Judge Wald to Witness

    9 N, there was no answer recorded.

    10 JUDGE WALD: Would you answer that question

    11 now then so we can have a complete record, whether or

    12 not the uniforms of the men performing the execution of

    13 the soldiers at the execution field were the same as

    14 those that were guarding you at the gym, same army

    15 camouflage uniforms.

    16 You're nodding your head; is that yes?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    20 very much, Judge Wald, and thank you, Mr. Harmon, for

    21 your intervention.

    22 Witness N, I also have a few questions for

    23 you.

    24 My first question is the following: You

    25 arrive at the school, people get off the bus and you

  37. 1 told us that at that point, they were mostly men. Why

    2 do you say "mostly"?

    3 A. Because there were no children or women with

    4 us.

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [No interpretation]

    6 A. Yes.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So there

    8 were only men. My second question is a synthetical

    9 one. How many times did you see Mladic?

    10 A. Six times.

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Six times.

    12 Could you then tell us where it was?

    13 A. The first time I saw him was when I was

    14 separated and taken to an unfinished house. The second

    15 time was when we were being put on the buses in

    16 Potocari, he was standing next to the buses. The third

    17 time it was when he came to us and he told us that we

    18 would be exchanged in Kalesija. The fourth time was

    19 when we were boarding the buses; again, he was standing

    20 right next to the buses. The fifth time was when he

    21 came to the gym and when he told us that some of us

    22 would go to Kladusa and some of us would go to

    23 Bijeljina. And the sixth time was at the meadow where

    24 we were executed.

    25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,

  38. 1 thank you. You can still see Prosecutor's Exhibit 20/8

    2 on the monitor.

    3 Mr. Usher, maybe the monitor of the witness

    4 could be switched on.

    5 Witness, could you please have a look at the

    6 photograph. The one that is on the screen. And to

    7 tell us the following: We know exactly where you were

    8 but what I would like to know is where exactly was

    9 General Mladic when you saw him?

    10 A. He was here at this location [indicates].

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you say

    12 that he was right next to these yellow marks somewhere

    13 midway up the photograph. You have already told us

    14 that that is exactly the spot where you were as well?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you were

    17 there at the point that you're indicating and where was

    18 Mladic?

    19 A. Yes, I was lying like this. My head was here

    20 [indicates] my legs facing the forest, and Mladic was

    21 standing to my right. And the people who were

    22 unloading the TAM truck were here [indicates], and he

    23 was standing right next to the TAM truck.

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well

    25 then. Could you then tell us how far from you was

  39. 1 General Mladic?

    2 A. Not more than ten metres away from me.

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good.

    4 Thank you very much.

    5 My next question for you is the following: I

    6 think I have understood you correctly, but I would

    7 like, nevertheless, to have a confirmation. When

    8 General Mladic arrived here at this location, he was

    9 able to see the results of the execution; is that

    10 correct?

    11 A. Yes, yes.

    12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

    13 Then when he arrived, you told us that the buses were

    14 coming from the right side on the photograph and that a

    15 line was being formed.

    16 A. You mean the truck?

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, the

    18 truck. And then after the people, the truck had left,

    19 people would be lined up and executed. So when General

    20 Mladic arrived here, could you tell us how many rows of

    21 people were there already?

    22 A. I couldn't count, Your Honour. I didn't

    23 count. All I know is that there were quite a few of

    24 them.

    25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But could

  40. 1 you perhaps give us an estimate? Do you have an idea

    2 as to the number of journeys that the truck made; how

    3 many times the truck arrived to this spot?

    4 A. After I had been brought to the spot, you

    5 mean? No, no, I cannot give you a definite answer. I

    6 was in great fear. I wasn't counting people. I

    7 couldn't think about that. All I know is that it was

    8 on several occasions, maybe even as many as ten times

    9 that they brought people in, but I cannot tell you

    10 exactly.

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good. But

    12 maybe you will be able to answer the following

    13 question: When you arrived at the execution site, had

    14 there already been corpses there?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    17 Thank you very much, Witness N. I don't have any other

    18 questions for you.

    19 You have been asked a number of questions by

    20 both parties and by the Judges, and you have answered

    21 all of those questions. Is there anything else that

    22 you would like to say? Anything that has not been

    23 brought up, something you haven't had the opportunity

    24 to say? If you wish to say something, you can do it

    25 now.

  41. 1 A. Your Honour, I don't have anything else to

    2 say. I have said everything I wanted to say. Thank

    3 you.

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

    5 Witness N, thank you very much. There is a technical

    6 matter that we have to attend to and after that you

    7 will be free to go.

    8 Mr. Petrusic, I believe that we have one

    9 Defence exhibit, D-17.

    10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

    11 Honour. The Defence would like to tender D-17 into

    12 evidence.

    13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon.

    14 MR. HARMON: Subject to a number of

    15 redactions which identify this witness by name and by

    16 other features, we would have no objection. I have

    17 gone through this in the examination. I can give a

    18 copy to the registrar of the redactions that are

    19 necessary.

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The exhibit

    21 D-17 there will therefore be admitted into evidence

    22 under seal and there will also be a redacted version

    23 which will be made available to the public.

    24 Mr. Dubuisson, will you take care of that?

    25 Very well, thank you.

  42. 1 Witness N, you have completed your testimony

    2 here before the International Tribunal. Thank you very

    3 much for coming to testify, and we are so glad you

    4 survived the execution and we hope that you will have a

    5 happy life after this. At least in order to -- to be

    6 able to tell the world that the things that happened

    7 independently of those who had committed them are

    8 condemnable, are horrible, must not happen again.

    9 Thank you very much, once again. Please do not move.

    10 Let us see what's happening with our next

    11 witness, Mr. Harmon.

    12 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, we have another

    13 witness. He will be a protected witness, and if we

    14 could take perhaps ten additional minutes during the

    15 break for reasons that are required, we would

    16 appreciate it.

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What kind

    18 of protective measures will be applied, Mr. Harmon?

    19 MR. HARMON: The same.

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The same.

    21 Mr. Petrusic.

    22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] We agree to

    23 that, Your Honour.

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Sorry,

    25 Mr. Harmon, you asked for an additional ten minutes. I

  43. 1 was actually going to have a break. The break was

    2 supposed to be 15 minutes. Do you need any additional

    3 time?

    4 MR. HARMON: We need an additional ten

    5 minutes, Mr. President.

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Twenty-five

    7 minutes. So just for the public, there will be a

    8 25-minute break now and after that we will resume with

    9 the same protective measures for our next witness.

    10 Twenty-five minute break.

    11 --- Recess taken at 10.58 a.m.

    12 --- On resuming at 11.28 a.m.

    13 [The witness entered court]

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

    15 morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

    16 THE WITNESS: Yes.

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You're

    18 going to read the solemn declaration that the usher is

    19 going to hand to you, please.

    20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

    21 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

    22 and nothing but the truth.


    24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

    25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be

  44. 1 seated, Witness. The registrar is going to show you

    2 your name, written on a piece of paper. You're going

    3 to read that name and say only yes or no whether that

    4 is your name.

    5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is my

    6 name.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

    8 Are you comfortable?

    9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank

    10 you.

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Are you

    12 being treated well here?

    13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, very well,

    14 thank you.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we shall

    16 continue to do so. Now, Witness O, you are going to

    17 answer questions which Mr. Cayley is going to put to

    18 you.

    19 Mr. Cayley, you have the floor.

    20 MR. CAYLEY: Yes. Good morning,

    21 Mr. President, Your Honours, counsel. Thank you.

    22 Examined by Mr. Cayley:

    23 Q. Now, Witness, I know you're feeling very

    24 nervous at the moment. Relax as best you can. Let me

    25 let you into a little secret. Whenever I stand up in

  45. 1 this courtroom, I feel exactly the same way; the only

    2 difference is that I've learned to hide it over the

    3 years. This may be the only opportunity that you get

    4 to tell this account. Don't worry if you can't

    5 remember things. I'll remind you. Just relax, speak

    6 slowly, and tell the Judges what happened to you.

    7 A. I will. All right.

    8 Q. Now, you're Bosnian by nationality; is that

    9 right?

    10 A. Yes, I am.

    11 Q. And I think you're Muslim by faith; is that

    12 right?

    13 A. Yes, I am.

    14 Q. And I think in 1992 the Serbs overran the

    15 town of Nova Kasaba and you and your family had to

    16 move; is that right?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. And that's where you were living with your

    19 family in 1992, in Nova Kasaba?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. I think you and your family lived in a number

    22 of places, and then in July of 1995 you found yourself

    23 in the village of Slapovici?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. And I think you were going to school in the

  46. 1 town of Srebrenica; is that right?

    2 A. Yes, that is right; I did.

    3 Q. In July of 1995 I think you had just turned

    4 your 17th birthday; is that right?

    5 A. Yes, on the (redacted).

    6 Q. Now, I want you to think back to July of

    7 1995, and specifically to the 11th of July, the 11th of

    8 that month. Do you recall that on that day the Bosnian

    9 Serb army overran the Srebrenica enclave?

    10 A. Yes, I remember.

    11 Q. And I think on that day you and your father

    12 decided to go to the woods with the other able-bodied

    13 men from Srebrenica; is that right?

    14 A. Yes. We decided like many others. I don't

    15 know whether I was able-bodied, but I decided to go

    16 there, because if I had gone to the UN Compound, I

    17 don't know whether I would have been saved.

    18 Q. So the reason that you went to the woods is

    19 because you feared for your life; is that right?

    20 A. Yes, that is right.

    21 Q. Now, in the village of Jaglici, where the

    22 column formed to go through the woods, can you tell the

    23 Judges about the degree of organisation of that column,

    24 as you remember it now?

    25 A. The degree of organisation was almost

  47. 1 nonexistent. The BH army -- I don't know whether I can

    2 call it an army, because many were unarmed -- they were

    3 preparing for a breakthrough to form a column and then

    4 civilians followed them. But it was chaotic, so that

    5 it was only in the morning of the 12th of July, or

    6 rather at 11.00, that I left Jaglici in the group of

    7 the last one or two thousand people.

    8 Q. Was your father in the Bosnian army at the

    9 time?

    10 A. Yes, he was a member, but he didn't have a

    11 uniform, he didn't have a rifle. I don't know whether

    12 I could call him a soldier. He was just formerly a

    13 member of the BH army.

    14 Q. Now, I know you've told me that the column

    15 moved through the forests on the 12th of July of 1995,

    16 and I'm not going to ask you questions about that,

    17 although the Defence and the Judges may have some

    18 questions for you. I want you to think about the 13th

    19 of July of 1995, in the afternoon, when you and some

    20 others gave yourselves up to the Bosnian Serb soldiers

    21 on the road between Bratunac and Konjevic Polje. Can

    22 you tell the Judges how you gave yourselves up to the

    23 Bosnian Serb soldiers?

    24 A. On the 13th of July, after heavy shelling

    25 throughout the night, many people were killed. There

  48. 1 was general confusion. We didn't know where to go.

    2 There was a big forest, and about 10.00 a loudspeaker

    3 was heard. Probably, I assume, they were Bosnian Serb

    4 soldiers, saying that we should surrender, otherwise we

    5 would all be killed and the shelling would continue,

    6 and that we would be treated in accordance with all the

    7 Geneva Conventions, they said.

    8 We stayed in the woods until 3.00. They

    9 repeated the message I don't know how many times over

    10 the loudspeaker, but around 3.00 a sort of column was

    11 formed which went down. They weren't people with

    12 weapons. Some people may have had weapons, but as far

    13 as I could see, there was general chaos. There were

    14 many who were wounded, perhaps more than those who were

    15 not. And we came out at the village of Kamenica, where

    16 we could hear tanks and APCs moving around the road.

    17 But I didn't see them until we got closer. This was a

    18 long column. I didn't see people surrendering. I

    19 couldn't see the end of the column. We were carrying

    20 the wounded. And I didn't yet know that we were

    21 surrendering. I knew we were going somewhere; I didn't

    22 know where.

    23 When we got closer, I saw that there were

    24 tanks and some other weapons on wheels. I don't know

    25 what kind. The column was continuous, and then I

  49. 1 realised that we had surrendered.

    2 When I got close to the bridge, there were

    3 five or six, or maybe four or seven -- I don't know --

    4 soldiers, roughly, there, and they said -- the column

    5 was moving and they were talking, and they were saying,

    6 "Come on." I had a bag. One of the soldiers asked

    7 me, "What do you have in your bag? Do you have any

    8 weapons or German marks or something?" I said I

    9 didn't. They told us to put our bags aside, our

    10 weapons, to lay down our weapons and any sharp

    11 objects. But I didn't see anyone with weapons. I

    12 think no one had weapons. And they told us that

    13 everything would be returned to us.

    14 Rows were formed on one side of the road,

    15 along the stream, close to the bridge. There were five

    16 rows of roughly 100 meters each. I can't tell you

    17 exactly. It might have been 90, 100, 110. The wounded

    18 were there too, and there may have been more of them

    19 than us.

    20 Q. You mentioned in your testimony that there

    21 were five or six soldiers who were around and about the

    22 Muslim men who had come to the road. Do you recall now

    23 how those soldiers were dressed?

    24 A. They had uniforms on, camouflage uniforms. I

    25 don't know whether they had -- all wore one-piece

  50. 1 uniforms, but they were camouflage. That's as much as

    2 I can say.

    3 Q. Was it blue camouflage or green/brown

    4 camouflage? Do you recall now?

    5 A. It was more olive-green or brown. It wasn't

    6 blue.

    7 Q. Now, after these columns were formed on the

    8 road when you gave to the Judges an estimate of the

    9 size, what happened to you all next?

    10 A. When all the men had come out -- and there

    11 was no interruption. There was a column constantly

    12 coming out. And while they were coming out, the

    13 Bosnian Serb soldiers were, in quotation marks, "good,

    14 decent." They didn't curse anyone, they didn't

    15 mistreat anyone. Because otherwise someone might have

    16 escaped.

    17 While I was standing in a line, we had to

    18 raise our arms as soon as we left our bags. Very close

    19 to me there was a tank, and one or two weapons on

    20 wheels with some sort of machine-guns or something; I

    21 don't know exactly. And on the tank, in white letters,

    22 the words "queen of death" was written. I think it was

    23 in Cyrillic, but I can't be a hundred per cent sure.

    24 And next to the river -- again I can't tell you the

    25 exact number of soldiers; ten, maybe fewer, who had

  51. 1 their guns pointed at us. There were soldiers walking

    2 past us, asking for money, and when everyone handed

    3 everything over, they cursed our balija mothers,

    4 "Balija son, we'll show you," and things like that.

    5 Almost everyone, each one of them, made these

    6 demands. I remember one in particular who had a

    7 machine-gun and an ammunition belt which was almost

    8 down to the ground. And then two passenger cars

    9 appeared. I think they were a Golf, Golfs. One was a

    10 police car and one was a metallic grey. Soldiers were

    11 sitting on the roofs and inside. There were a number

    12 of them -- I don't know -- five, six, or ten.

    13 They got out. Some of them had camouflage

    14 but police uniforms, so they were camouflage blue. And

    15 others were like the others, in army uniforms, that is,

    16 olive-green or brownish camouflage.

    17 Some of them may have also asked for things.

    18 I didn't see them beat anyone. They may have, they may

    19 have not.

    20 In the meantime, I saw buses which had come

    21 up to those lines in the direction of the road

    22 Bratunac-Konjevic Polje, but they probably couldn't

    23 pass because of us. I don't know the exact number of

    24 buses there were and trucks, because there was a curve

    25 in the road, so we couldn't see them all. And then we

  52. 1 were ordered to run along the road towards Bratunac.

    2 We didn't know where we were going at the time.

    3 And so we ran and we carried the wounded as

    4 we ran. We took turns, with our hands up. And when I

    5 reached the bus, I saw that there were women and

    6 children inside from Potocari, from the UN Compound. I

    7 recognised them by their clothing and I recognised a

    8 schoolmate of mine in the bus, in the window.

    9 So as we ran, we had to lift three fingers,

    10 and the soldiers were running alongside, with rifles.

    11 And I think the drivers in the bus and the trucks were

    12 armed with weapons, but I'm not sure of that. I can't

    13 say for sure. I thought they were.

    14 So we had to show the sign of three fingers

    15 so that -- as we passed the trucks, so that the women

    16 and children would see us. And so we ran for about one

    17 kilometer. We passed those buses and trucks. As I

    18 said, I don't know how many there were. Maybe ten,

    19 maybe fewer. I don't know. And we reached a spot

    20 where we turned left.

    21 Behind me a Bosnian Serb soldier asked the

    22 man behind me -- I couldn't see who he was. I don't

    23 know what he looks like. Whether he was young or old,

    24 I don't know. He asked him, "Which unit were you in in

    25 Srebrenica?" He was probably referring to the army.

  53. 1 The man said, "I was in an infantry unit." I don't

    2 know why he said that. It sounds ironic. An execution

    3 unit, actually.

    4 Then the blows started. I don't know whether

    5 he stayed there or continued running. I don't know.

    6 As we turned to the left, I saw a dead man. He wasn't

    7 run over, because the cars were only using one lane,

    8 but he must have been killed much earlier, because

    9 there were flies all over him and worms. He seemed to

    10 me to be like an older man, but I can't say for sure.

    11 Then we turned left, running all the time.

    12 We were carrying the wounded, I, among others. We took

    13 turns. I don't know whether we, all of us, left the

    14 place where we had stood, where we had surrendered.

    15 And the place where we turned was on a meadow above the

    16 Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road. The grass was quite

    17 high, but it had been stamped on as if people had been

    18 there before. I just remember that, that it wasn't

    19 standing up, the grass.

    20 Q. Witness, if you could wait there one moment.

    21 MR. CAYLEY: And if the witness could be

    22 shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 1/E/1 which is a small map.

    23 Q. Witness, you said that you saw a number of

    24 buses travelling on the road full of women and

    25 children. In which direction were those buses

  54. 1 travelling; can you recall now?

    2 A. Yes. They were going along the

    3 Bratunac-Konjevic Polje. That was the direction.

    4 Bratunac to Konjevic Polje direction, I think that's

    5 what I said.

    6 Q. Witness, you said that the Bosnian Serb

    7 soldiers made you essentially put your fingers up in

    8 a -- three fingers you had to raise above your head.

    9 Do you know what the significance of that

    10 three-fingered salute was?

    11 A. I don't really know how to explain. It's a

    12 sign of theirs. I can't say.

    13 Q. If you can look at the map next to you, and

    14 if you could first of all indicate to the Judges -- in

    15 fact if the map could be moved up, please.

    16 If you could indicate approximately where you

    17 came down, where you surrendered to the Serbs. That's

    18 the first point I'd like you to indicate, just

    19 approximately.

    20 A. Somewhere here [indicates] near Sandici. And

    21 then we ran up to Sandici. I don't know whether we

    22 actually reached Sandici.

    23 Q. If you could wait there, Witness. I just

    24 need to read into the record the point that you're

    25 making on the map. If you could indicate again where

  55. 1 you came down from the forest.

    2 MR. CAYLEY: The witness is indicating on

    3 this exhibit a point approximately halfway between

    4 Sandici and where the road intersects with the Nova

    5 Kasaba-Konjevic Polje road and that is on the

    6 Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road.

    7 A. No, no, not really halfway. It was up to a

    8 point maybe one kilometre away from Sandici, so not

    9 quite halfway.

    10 Q. Thank you for correcting me and making the

    11 record more accurate.

    12 Can you indicate to the Judges where the

    13 meadow was as best you can recollect?

    14 A. I can't show you on the map. It was in

    15 Sandici somewhere. There are five or ten houses there,

    16 it's not a proper settlement. I just know there were

    17 about two or three or maybe five, six houses around me,

    18 I can't tell you exactly. There was a house on the

    19 lower side of the road. I saw that later while I was

    20 sat -- while I sat there. While we were running I

    21 didn't see it, I saw it later.

    22 Q. So if you were facing Bratunac, the meadow

    23 was on the left-hand side of the road and it was very

    24 close to the settlement of Sandici?

    25 A. Yes, yes. On the left-hand side of the road.

  56. 1 Q. Now, you said that when you arrived in the

    2 meadow, the grass was high but that you could see that

    3 the grass had been flattened. What did you think at

    4 the time when you saw that the grass had been

    5 flattened?

    6 A. I thought that perhaps some other people had

    7 been there, maybe a group prior to ours. That is what

    8 occurred to me. It wasn't flattened as if trucks had

    9 passed there, but rather as if people had played ball

    10 there.

    11 Q. Now, Witness, if you could remember while we

    12 are proceeding to try and speak slowly. I know you do

    13 naturally speak very quickly, but there are

    14 interpreters in between us, and it makes their task

    15 much easier if you and I both speak slowly.

    16 A. I'm sorry. I'll slow down. Sometimes I sort

    17 of get excited, and then I speed up a little.

    18 Q. You're being very clear. You're being very

    19 clear, but just if you could speak more slowly that

    20 would be helpful.

    21 A. I'll do that.

    22 Q. Now, you went into this meadow. Can you

    23 remember how many of you there were in the meadow,

    24 approximately?

    25 A. I can't give you an exact number of people in

  57. 1 the meadow, but where we were standing at the road,

    2 according to my assessment, there was between 1.000 and

    3 2.000. It was -- I'm sure it was more than 1.000, but

    4 I can't tell you the exact number but there certainly

    5 were very many. We were right next to one another.

    6 Q. Now, after you all gathered in the meadow,

    7 what happened to you next?

    8 A. Soldiers surrounded us, soldiers of the

    9 Bosnian Serbs. Actually, people first sat down. I was

    10 somewhere in the middle further to the back, actually.

    11 And here again, there were a large number of people,

    12 but I can't tell you how many. And I don't know

    13 whether all of us had come in one group from the place

    14 where we were before, where we -- when we ran.

    15 There was a tank in front of us again. I saw

    16 it when I was sitting. I don't remember whether it was

    17 there when we ran up. In front were the wounded. And

    18 one of the Bosnian Serb soldiers started saying

    19 something. I didn't register everything because I

    20 wasn't interested. But something to the effect, "We

    21 are from Serbia."

    22 Actually, he first asked whether there was

    23 anyone who needed bandaging and he bandaged our

    24 wounded; or rather, I'm sorry, whether there was anyone

    25 who could bandage the wounded. And then a man offered

  58. 1 to do that. Then he searched him with a pistol in his

    2 hand. He searched the man.

    3 This soldier had a black bandanna on his head

    4 or a scarf tied at the nape of his neck. He was a very

    5 heavily-built man, well-built man. I think he wore a

    6 camouflage uniform as well. I'm not sure whether it

    7 was in one piece or trousers separate, I can't tell. I

    8 think he was fair. I came to that conclusion on the

    9 basis of his beard. He didn't have a beard but he had

    10 a growth of hair as if he hadn't shaven.

    11 And later he said, "You see what happened to

    12 your comrades. If you had surrendered, you wouldn't

    13 have had so many wounded." I can't quote him exactly,

    14 but I'm paraphrasing.

    15 Later he said, "Other soldiers will come

    16 now. They won't hurt you." When he said that, he

    17 probably meant another unit. I don't know. I can't

    18 tell. But they were the same soldiers -- not the same,

    19 but they wore the same uniforms.

    20 Q. Now, Witness, we're still on the 13th of July

    21 of 1995. Do you remember approximately what time the

    22 events that you're talking about now took place?

    23 A. Which event do you mean?

    24 Q. I'm talking about now the Serb soldier

    25 addressing the crowd, the Serb soldier who asked the

  59. 1 man if he could attend to the wounded. Do you remember

    2 what time of the day that was?

    3 A. Yes, this was in the afternoon, perhaps 4.00,

    4 5.00 or 6.00 in the afternoon. I don't know exactly.

    5 I didn't have a watch, and I don't know. Roughly that

    6 time of day it was.

    7 Q. Now, the Serb -- the Bosnian Serb soldier who

    8 asked if there was anybody who could attend to the

    9 wounded; do you recall that testimony? The man who

    10 assisted the wounded was a member of the Muslim men

    11 assembled on the meadow.

    12 A. He was probably a Muslim, I don't know what

    13 he was, but he volunteered himself.

    14 Q. Did the Bosnian Serb soldier who had the

    15 bandanna on his head explain to you all what was going

    16 to happen to all of you on the meadow?

    17 A. Yes. He said that we would be transferred to

    18 a hangar or rather to hangars in Bratunac where we

    19 would spend the night. And the next day, we would be

    20 with our families, we would be exchanged and handed

    21 over, probably.

    22 Q. Now, prior to you actually being transported

    23 to Bratunac. Can you explain to the Judges what you

    24 remember of the rest of your time that you spent in the

    25 meadow?

  60. 1 A. Yes, I can. Somebody said or maybe it was

    2 him that we would not be given any dinner, which was

    3 rather ironical.

    4 After that when other soldiers arrived, we

    5 were ordered or maybe somebody said something, I don't

    6 know whether it was the same soldier or somebody else,

    7 we were told to lie down on our stomachs and to put our

    8 hands behind our necks and to start clapping. And our

    9 faces were buried in the grass, so we couldn't see

    10 anything.

    11 And this is how we started clapping our

    12 hands. I couldn't see everyone, but I assumed that

    13 everybody did the same. And they told us to say, "Long

    14 live the king. Long live Serbia."

    15 In the meantime, while we were lying on the

    16 meadow in the grass, I don't know whether we were

    17 clapping our hands all the time or not, shooting could

    18 be heard. I don't know what was happening, but after

    19 we had been told to get up and to have a rest, at that

    20 time it was getting dark. The visibility was still

    21 good, but it might have been half past seven or 8.00 in

    22 the evening.

    23 At that point, I could see a man shooting

    24 from a window of a house. He was most probably one of

    25 the Bosnian Serb soldiers. He had taken his rifle and

  61. 1 opened fire. I think that he was killing people, but I

    2 didn't see anybody wounded after that.

    3 My uncle who was with me told me that one man

    4 who was sitting in front of us was missing. And

    5 there's something else that I forgot to tell you. It

    6 looked as if someone was walking on our backs. At one

    7 point I felt somebody step on my leg.

    8 Before we laid down, I saw that there were

    9 some soldiers sitting at the balcony of the house below

    10 the road. I couldn't tell you the number of them, but

    11 I know that they were there sitting on the balcony.

    12 We saw trucks after we had got up going in

    13 the direction of Bratunac, maybe five or six of them;

    14 again, I cannot be more precise. But I remember the

    15 letters "Tuzla Transport" that were written on one of

    16 the trucks on a canvas of a truck. It probably

    17 referred to the name of a company.

    18 And people ran up to the trucks. Those were

    19 very large trucks. I cannot tell you how big they

    20 were, but they were probably the largest trucks I had

    21 ever seen. All I know was that there were a number, a

    22 great number of people on those trucks. And I boarded

    23 one of -- I boarded the last truck.

    24 Q. Now, Witness, you've said in your testimony

    25 that people ran up to the trucks. You mean that the

  62. 1 people in the meadow, the Muslim men in the meadow

    2 which included yourself got onto those trucks?

    3 A. Yes, yes. That's what I mean. I was on the

    4 last truck and the trucks were covered with canvas.

    5 And we would step into the back part of the truck, the

    6 rear part of the truck, which was open because the

    7 canvas was up at the back of the truck.

    8 I don't know how I managed to get in. I just

    9 remember grabbing, taking hold of the back part of the

    10 truck, but I kept falling off and the men helped me

    11 in. I don't know finally how I managed to get in. All

    12 I know was that the truck was completely full.

    13 And somebody said that there was no more room

    14 for anybody else but they kept pushing people into the

    15 trucks so they were completely crowded and people were

    16 standing next to one another.

    17 According to my estimate, there was between

    18 100 and 200 people on a truck, I cannot tell you the

    19 exact number, but this is my estimate. I don't know

    20 whether all of the trucks -- actually, I don't know

    21 whether all of the people had boarded those trucks.

    22 We were told not to try to jump out of the

    23 truck and that we would be followed by a Golf. I think

    24 it was the police Golf that had arrived previously to

    25 the place where we were.

  63. 1 Q. Witness, first of all, who told you to get

    2 onto the trucks?

    3 A. Somebody told us. I don't know exactly who

    4 it was. It may have been the same soldier I referred

    5 to. He may have been there. Maybe it was him who

    6 spoke, but I wasn't paying any attention. Maybe it was

    7 him or somebody else. We were told to do so, and I ran

    8 together with other people with my head bent down, and

    9 I wasn't interested, very much, in what was going on.

    10 Q. Who told you not to try and escape, not to

    11 try and jump out of the trucks?

    12 A. Somebody did. I don't know who it was.

    13 Q. Now, after the trucks were filled to

    14 capacity, what happened to you next?

    15 A. The trucks set off in the direction of

    16 Bratunac. They were driving at a rather high speed.

    17 We were uncomfortable, people kept falling on one

    18 another. It was chaos. The rear part of the truck was

    19 open. The canvas was up, but not the sides of the

    20 truck as it had been when we started.

    21 When we came to Bratunac, at least I assumed

    22 that it was when we arrived in Bratunac because I saw

    23 lights coming from the apartments, so I presume it was

    24 Bratunac, the truck stopped somewhere in the town.

    25 People were asking for water, shouting,

  64. 1 calling out, "Give us some water." And we were sort of

    2 lying, leaning next to each other and my body was going

    3 numb. I couldn't feel anything anymore.

    4 When people would ask for water, somebody,

    5 probably one of the soldiers, but it was dark and I

    6 couldn't see, would hit -- would bang on the truck from

    7 the outside, probably with a rifle butt saying, "What

    8 do you want balijas?" And then they would curse our

    9 balija mother, and I don't know what else. I didn't

    10 observe everything.

    11 We spent the night on the truck. I think I

    12 fell asleep at one point. I cannot remember it now,

    13 whether I actually slept. I know that people were

    14 pushing one another, that it was very crowded.

    15 And then in the morning, the trucks continued

    16 through the town. So as I told you, I was on the last

    17 truck and I could see people watching from their flats,

    18 and one could see it from the back side.

    19 Q. Witness, you said that morning had come. Can

    20 you tell the Judges, if you remember what date this

    21 was? You explained to them that you were captured by

    22 the Serbs on the 13th, you got on the trucks on the

    23 13th of July. This would be the 14th of July of 1995,

    24 would it?

    25 A. Yes, it was on the 14th of July around 7.00

  65. 1 in the morning. The trucks left, I don't know in which

    2 direction, but some of the people who were on the truck

    3 said that they had seen an UNPROFOR personnel carrier.

    4 They said that somebody had passed by, but I didn't see

    5 anything.

    6 They probably talked about the possibility of

    7 them saving us or something to that effect. The trucks

    8 came to a halt somewhere outside Bratunac, not far from

    9 the town. But I don't know how long we had been

    10 travelling, but it was in the outskirts of the town.

    11 And we stayed there for a while.

    12 While we were passing through the town, I

    13 could see that there were about five or six trucks, or

    14 maybe it was at one of the turning points that I

    15 managed to see that, but I don't remember that very

    16 clearly.

    17 So when the trucks came to a halt outside

    18 Bratunac, I don't remember exactly, but they may have

    19 said that we would be there until 10.00, that we would

    20 stay there until 10.00. And maybe this is what

    21 happened. Maybe we stayed until 10.00 or maybe 11.00.

    22 I don't know.

    23 Again people were asking for water. I was

    24 asking for water too. I was thirsty as well. And I

    25 think that somebody brought some water. I don't know

  66. 1 who it was. Maybe a soldier or somebody else. He

    2 brought a five-litre jerrycan with water, or a bottle

    3 of water. I don't know exactly what kind of container

    4 it was, but it was water. And somebody, a man from the

    5 truck, stood up and he would pour a drop or two of

    6 water into everybody's mouth. I did the same. I stood

    7 up and opened my mouth to get this drop of water.

    8 At one point I stood up. I don't know why I

    9 did so, but there was a bus full of people behind the

    10 truck. I don't know whether the bus was carrying women

    11 or children or some other people, but I know that it

    12 was full of people. It was completely crowded. I

    13 don't know why I stood up at that point, but I looked

    14 outside and the driver from the bus motioned to me with

    15 his hand to sit down. He seemed very angry and he had

    16 a rifle next to him. I think it was -- the rifle was

    17 placed against the windshield. I don't know what kind

    18 of rifle it was, but it was a rifle, and I understood

    19 him to mean that I would be killed if I stand up, that

    20 I should not look out.

    21 We were in an inhabited area and I managed to

    22 see, perhaps through the canvas, that there were people

    23 around in the area, that there were children riding

    24 bicycles, that there were women. And after the truck

    25 had continued its journey, we were told that the back

  67. 1 part of the canvas would be pulled down for our

    2 safety. And that's what they did.

    3 At that moment I was next to the side of the

    4 truck, and there must have been a hole in the canvas,

    5 so I was able to see where we were going. I was able

    6 to take a peek from time to time and see where we were

    7 going. And I could also breathe, thanks to that,

    8 because the atmosphere in the truck was terrible. It

    9 was unbearable. It was so hot that there was no oxygen

    10 left.

    11 I remember that the truck was going in the

    12 direction of Konjevic Polje. This is actually what I

    13 saw, what I realised later on. And the bus carrying

    14 people must have hit something. All I could see was

    15 that the front part of the bus, of the bus window, was

    16 broken. I don't know whether all of them continued

    17 their journey. I don't know exactly what happened and

    18 why it happened.

    19 So we passed through Konjevic Polje. I'm

    20 familiar with the area, so I was able to recognise it.

    21 And the truck turned off towards -- turned right, in

    22 the direction of Zvornik. It travelled through

    23 Drinjaca, through Zvornik, and I saw some people

    24 swimming under the bridge in the Drina River. There

    25 were people passing by the truck, walking down the

  68. 1 street. Some of them would curse our balija mothers.

    2 I couldn't see them. I didn't know what they looked

    3 like, but I would hear them from time to time or see

    4 them when I would be out.

    5 So we passed through Zvornik and reached

    6 Karakaj. I know that there was a road that went on

    7 towards Bijeljina and Tuzla, and I assumed, and people

    8 talked among themselves, that we would probably be

    9 taken to a camp in Bijeljina or in Batkovic. Because

    10 if they had wanted to kill people, they wouldn't have

    11 transported them. This was our assumption and this is

    12 what people were thinking at the time. It seemed

    13 logical.

    14 But at one point the truck turned towards

    15 Tuzla probably, and people were saying -- people were

    16 talking, and they became "happy" and "excited," in

    17 quotation marks, because they thought that we were

    18 going to Tuzla, that we would be exchanged or

    19 released. However, at one point the truck slowed down

    20 and it turned right, and I don't know where we were.

    21 It came to a halt at some location. I wasn't watching

    22 at that point. I was trying to get some air because it

    23 was so stifling. We were very thirsty. Many people

    24 fainted. Someone may even have died. I couldn't tell

    25 you anything about that.

  69. 1 But after approximately one hour they opened

    2 the rear side of the truck --

    3 Q. Witness, if you could just pause there for a

    4 moment. Now, you explained to the Judges that on the

    5 14th of July the truck eventually left Bratunac and

    6 went north towards Zvornik and Karakaj. Do you

    7 remember approximately what time the bus left the

    8 outskirts of Bratunac?

    9 A. I think I have already said. It was about

    10 10.00 or 11.00, after having been stationed for about

    11 two hours or three hours.

    12 Q. Can you show the Judges on the map in front

    13 of you the route that you believe you took between

    14 Bratunac and the place, the location that you

    15 eventually ended up in? And I know towards the end of

    16 your journey you were not aware of where you were.

    17 MR. CAYLEY: If the map could be moved up.

    18 A. Could you please spread it open for me?

    19 MR. CAYLEY: If the map could be moved up.

    20 A. From Bratunac I believe -- I can show you --

    21 I cannot show you the portion of the road after

    22 Zvornik, because Zvornik is not on the map. So I think

    23 that we took this road from Bratunac [indicates], and

    24 after Sandici -- I'm sure that we went along this

    25 road. And this one here, this is where we turned right

  70. 1 [indicates], and then continued up to the Drinjaca

    2 River. The truck crossed the bridge and continued

    3 along the Drina River, passed through Zvornik, and then

    4 in Karakaj it turned -- I don't know what road it was,

    5 but I think that it was in the direction of Tuzla, most

    6 probably here [indicates], and this is where we turned

    7 again, at this spot [indicates].

    8 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the

    9 witness indicated that after Karakaj the bus turned

    10 left, and he believes stopped at a location called

    11 Petkovci.

    12 A. Just a moment, please. I told you I knew the

    13 road up to Karakaj, and I think that we went along this

    14 road from Karakaj and that we turned right at one point

    15 and we passed by a structure, a building. I don't know

    16 which building it was. This is what I can indicate

    17 here.

    18 Q. Now, after you -- after the truck stopped,

    19 and I know at this point you weren't exactly sure where

    20 you were, because you didn't know the area, how long

    21 did you remain on the truck?

    22 A. I think that we remained there for about one

    23 hour. I think it was in the afternoon. People were

    24 crying out, shouting. They wanted to get out, get off

    25 the truck. "Let us outside. We're thirsty." They

  71. 1 were saying all kinds of things, but I cannot remember

    2 now. It was horrible. People even drank their own

    3 urine from their genitals.

    4 When they opened the truck, there were two or

    5 three soldiers there, probably Bosnian Serb soldiers.

    6 They told us to get out. One of the soldiers told us

    7 to get out. And then somebody said, "See, balijas,

    8 we're driving you around, and you, you wouldn't even

    9 give us a lift."

    10 Q. Witness, what time, approximately, was it

    11 that you got off the truck?

    12 A. It was in the afternoon hours. I don't know

    13 exactly what time it was. Maybe 3.00 or 4.00 in the

    14 afternoon.

    15 Q. Do you recall how the Bosnian Serb soldiers

    16 were dressed that you saw at the location where you got

    17 off the truck?

    18 A. They were dressed in the same or similar

    19 uniforms. They were camouflage uniforms, brown, olive,

    20 drab, green in colour.

    21 MR. CAYLEY: If we could have Prosecutor's

    22 Exhibit 21/4, please.

    23 Q. While we're waiting for that exhibit,

    24 Witness, can you explain to the Judges what happened to

    25 you after you got off the truck?

  72. 1 A. As we were getting off the truck people had

    2 to step on each other. I saw a relative of mine, an

    3 acquaintance, on whom people had to step. I don't know

    4 whether he was still conscious, but people were walking

    5 on top of him, because he couldn't stand up. But later

    6 on I saw him in the classroom. He was there. I don't

    7 know whether it was really a classroom. I don't know

    8 what kind of building it was, actually.

    9 So after we got off the truck, we went up the

    10 stairs and into a school building. Actually, at that

    11 point I didn't know it was a school. It was a kind of

    12 structure.

    13 Q. Witness, this photograph that you see in

    14 front of you, can you explain to the Judges what this

    15 location is? Is this where the truck stopped?

    16 A. Yes, this is where the truck stopped. It

    17 stopped above the stairs, here. You cannot see it on

    18 the photograph. A little further than this.

    19 I forgot to tell you: Through the hole in

    20 the canvas I could see one or two buses and a truck

    21 there that were empty. This is what I saw. But I

    22 don't know how many of them there were. There may have

    23 been more on the other side, but I don't remember,

    24 because after I got out I didn't watch.

    25 And then two or three soldiers were standing

  73. 1 at the back of the truck while we were getting off.

    2 One of them was standing in front of the building, in

    3 front of a school -- I don't know whether it was a

    4 school at that time. One of them was standing here

    5 [indicates], near the stairs, and we walked in a line.

    6 And at the entrance to the school this soldier took his

    7 rifle by the barrel and he would hit every man with his

    8 rifle butt on his back. But people were getting in

    9 very fast, so he didn't manage to hit them all. So the

    10 man who was standing here stopped the people, and he

    11 would send them one by one so that they could be beaten

    12 up later on. They were hit once or twice or maybe

    13 several times.

    14 Q. Witness, the truck was parked on an area of

    15 ground that is to the left of this photograph. It's

    16 outside the photograph, isn't it, the place where the

    17 truck stopped?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. And the rear of the truck was facing the

    20 stairs that are seen in the photograph on the left-hand

    21 side, going down towards the school?

    22 A. Yes. The truck was actually parallel with

    23 the school. The back part was just next to the steps

    24 where we got off.

    25 Q. And can you recall, if you can, the -- was it

  74. 1 the first step down on which the first Bosnian soldier

    2 was standing, as one looks at the steps going down

    3 towards the school?

    4 A. The two or three soldiers. There may have

    5 been more, but in front of the truck there were two or

    6 three soldiers. I don't know exactly whether they were

    7 right here, but they were anyway on the part that is

    8 flat [indicates]. I don't know whether anyone was

    9 standing here [indicates], but I remember this one well

    10 who stood halfway down the steps.

    11 And when my turn came, when I reached this

    12 man -- actually, there was the man in front of me, a

    13 man who was captured. I don't know who he was. And he

    14 was waiting for his turn to come to receive a blow.

    15 And the Bosnian Serb soldier asked him, "Do you know

    16 me?" And the man said, "Yes, I know you, brother." He

    17 said "brother." I don't know why. And the Serb

    18 soldier answered, "Who do you know?" He asked the man,

    19 "Who do you know," as if he didn't want him to know

    20 him. And as he was holding a gun -- I think it was one

    21 with a clip, a large clip. I don't know whether it was

    22 an automatic rifle, but something like that. I think

    23 all the soldiers had automatic rifles. I think so.

    24 Machine-guns or automatic rifles.

    25 And when the man said he knew him, the Serb

  75. 1 soldier hit him with his rifle. He hit him with the

    2 front part of the rifle, in his ribs, in his stomach.

    3 The man curled up, or rather he screamed, but the man

    4 who was in front of the door, I don't know whether he

    5 approached him, but as he bent down, as this man bent

    6 down, this other one hit him with his rifle butt across

    7 the back, once or twice; I don't know.

    8 But when he saw that there was no point, that

    9 he would continue to be beaten, he sort of stood up and

    10 entered the school. I don't know whether they broke

    11 him anything.

    12 I got in without a blow. I don't know why

    13 they didn't hit me. Perhaps they were confused over

    14 this man who went in front. He got in, anyway.

    15 Whether the man in front of the door, the one who was

    16 doing the beating, moved away, I don't know. I just

    17 know that they didn't hit me, perhaps because I looked

    18 very childish. I was young. I don't know why.

    19 And when we entered the school, the column

    20 continued; not really a column, but as one was hit, he

    21 would enter. There was some space between each man.

    22 There were soldiers inside, but I don't know how many.

    23 And one of them asked, "Whose land is this?" And he

    24 provided the answer himself: "This is Serb land. It

    25 always was and will be." And he said, "Follow me,

  76. 1 balija -- repeat after me," and we had to repeat after

    2 him: "This is Serb land. It always was and will be."

    3 Q. Witness, if you could pause there for a

    4 moment.

    5 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I don't know

    6 whether you feel this is an appropriate time for a

    7 break. I think we've been going for nearly an hour and

    8 a quarter.

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

    10 Mr. Cayley. Thank you very much for drawing our

    11 attention to this. We're going to have a break, not

    12 quite half an hour, but 25 minutes and then we'll

    13 continue.

    14 --- Recess taken at 12.37 p.m.

    15 --- On resuming at 1.11 p.m.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I

    17 apologise, Mr. Cayley. We took a little longer for the

    18 break, but before beginning, perhaps we need to

    19 re-examine our working hours a little. I don't know

    20 whether you can answer this question. We have decided

    21 to have a Status Conference at about quarter past two.

    22 Nevertheless, I examined what we could

    23 discuss, and I really think that we would go on until

    24 after 3.00 and this would, of course, cause

    25 inconvenience with the interpreters and also the

  77. 1 meetings that the Judges have in the course of the

    2 afternoon.

    3 So I'd like to ask you, is this the last

    4 witness you have or do you have another witness.

    5 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, if your --

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me

    7 for interrupting you. For this week, I mean.

    8 MR. CAYLEY: No, Mr. President, we do have

    9 two more witnesses which we believe that we could get

    10 through tomorrow. I cannot guarantee that, but that

    11 certainly is our aim.

    12 I know you expressed the view that you didn't

    13 wish witnesses to be brought here, part heard and then

    14 sent back. If we were only able to complete one, an

    15 additional one witness, I think we would not call the

    16 third witness, but we can certainly discuss that

    17 tomorrow.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What I

    19 would suggest, therefore, I think the question of

    20 witnesses is more important than the Status

    21 Conference. So what we are going to try to do is to

    22 proceed as quickly as possible. I'm placing this

    23 before you for your consideration, both the Prosecution

    24 and the Defence and my colleague Judges to go directly

    25 to questions and to save time so as to avoid a witness

  78. 1 who is here now having to come back a month and a half

    2 later.

    3 I think we all understand what that can mean

    4 from every possible standpoint. Therefore, we have

    5 this witness and two more. Therefore, what we're going

    6 to try to do is to do our very best to finish with the

    7 testimony.

    8 If tomorrow we have a little time left, I

    9 would at least like to ask you a few questions so you

    10 can think about them without going into any analyses

    11 but simply to convey to you the concerns of the Chamber

    12 regarding the status of the case. And when we resume

    13 our hearings, we will do so after the parties have had

    14 a chance to reflect about them and discuss these

    15 matters.

    16 So what I am suggesting now, and when I

    17 mentioned the small Status Conference tomorrow, I mean

    18 that we must never overstep the deadline of 3.00.

    19 Mr. Dubuisson, can we plan that for tomorrow

    20 to work until 3.00, perhaps.

    21 THE REGISTRAR [Interpretation] No problem,

    22 Your Honour.

    23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In that

    24 case, thank you very much.

    25 So what I'm asking now is to proceed as

  79. 1 quickly as possible to save as much time as possible

    2 and tomorrow, if we have a chance, we will have a very

    3 small Status Conference. Not the one we wanted to

    4 have, but simply to list the questions that we have to

    5 address.

    6 I think it is important for you before we

    7 adjourn to know the question that you have to think

    8 over. I think it was important for me to say this in

    9 the interest of management.

    10 Thank you very much, please proceed.

    11 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Mr. President. In respect

    12 of this witness, Witness O, we will certainly finish

    13 him today.

    14 Now, Mr. President, may I proceed with the

    15 witness?

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.

    17 MR. CAYLEY:

    18 Q. Now, Witness, prior to the break, you had

    19 explained to the Judges that as you went into this

    20 building, soldiers, Bosnian Serb soldiers cried, "This

    21 is Serbian country; always was and always will be,"

    22 and that you also were required to say this. And you

    23 were addressed as "balijas" by these Bosnian Serb

    24 soldiers.

    25 If you know, can you explain to the Judges

  80. 1 the meaning of balija?

    2 A. I think at least I know. I think it's a

    3 derogatory name for Bosnian Muslims. For Turks, in

    4 fact, but we're not Turks. We're a Slavic people of

    5 Muslim faith. So it's a derogatory term for Muslims.

    6 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown

    7 Prosecutor's Exhibit 21/5 and 21/6. If 21/5 could be

    8 placed on the ELMO.

    9 Q. Can you explain to the Judges this photograph

    10 that's in front of you?

    11 A. Yes. When we entered the school here, we

    12 went this way [indicates], and then we turned right, up

    13 the steps. Actually, the column went that way, and

    14 that's where we had to shout what we were told.

    15 I forgot to mention also their question was:

    16 "Who does Srebrenica belong to?" And then the

    17 soldiers themselves said, "Srebrenica was always Serb.

    18 It always was, and always will be Serb."

    19 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the

    20 witness is indicating on Prosecutor's Exhibit 21/5 that

    21 the column of Muslim men went up the staircase

    22 indicated in that photograph to the first floor?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 MR. CAYLEY: And now if the witness could be

    25 shown Exhibit 21/6.

  81. 1 Q. Witness, can you explain this photograph to

    2 the Judges?

    3 A. Yes, we went along this corridor. Actually

    4 this group of men, I don't know whether all of them got

    5 off the truck. I think it was the last or one but last

    6 classroom, I'm not sure.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Cayley,

    8 excuse me for interrupting you.

    9 Witness, if possible, when you have a pointer

    10 on the ELMO, look at the photograph, not the monitor;

    11 otherwise you can't point it out to us.

    12 If you are speaking without being in touch

    13 with the photograph, and if you have a pointer on the

    14 photograph, we get a bit confused. So when pointing,

    15 please look at the ELMO. If you don't need to use the

    16 photograph, remove the pointer.

    17 A. I apologise, Mr. President.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Sorry,

    19 Mr. Cayley, you may proceed.

    20 MR. CAYLEY:

    21 Q. Witness, can you indicate to the Judges the

    22 door of the classroom into which you entered?

    23 A. We were going along this corridor

    24 [indicates], and I'm not quite sure whether we entered

    25 the last or one but last classroom. There were five or

  82. 1 six doors leading out from this corridor, I don't know

    2 whether there were five or six classrooms. And we

    3 could hear people talking inside so I went into the

    4 last or one but last.

    5 And once I enter the classroom, I'll be able

    6 to recognise it, but looking at it this way I'm not

    7 sure which one of the two it was.

    8 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the

    9 witness is indicating on Prosecutor's Exhibit 21/6 that

    10 he entered one of the doors which are on the right-hand

    11 side of the photograph, and it's either the one

    12 furthest in the background on the right-hand side or

    13 the next one coming into the foreground from that one.

    14 So it's essentially the last two doors on the

    15 right-hand side of the photograph looking towards the

    16 door at the end of that view.

    17 Q. Now, Witness, how full of men was the

    18 classroom that you went into?

    19 A. The classroom was full. At first, the air

    20 was fresh as opposed to the air in the truck. I felt

    21 well, as if I was free, compared to the horror in the

    22 truck. The classroom was full, it was packed full. In

    23 fact, it was perhaps more crowded than the truck. I

    24 can't tell you how many people were inside though.

    25 So when the classroom was full, the door was

  83. 1 closed. People sat on top of one another, some were

    2 lying down. In any case, there were a lot of people.

    3 I can't tell you the number.

    4 Q. Now, you said that there was not enough air

    5 in the room. Did you try to open a window?

    6 A. Yes. One of the men tried to open a window,

    7 but what I must mention first is that a Bosnian Serb

    8 soldier came and asked for German marks. Some men said

    9 they had already given them to others before. They

    10 said, "You must give them up. Those of you who do will

    11 be saved." Some people who hid the money gave it up.

    12 And after that he left the classroom.

    13 And then we ran out of air, so someone tried

    14 to open the window. But shooting started, so that the

    15 glass was broken. I think it was probably one of the

    16 soldiers. So that the window panes were cracked. Not

    17 all of them; one, two, or three, though.

    18 Q. Now, if the windows were broken, the soldier

    19 was firing outside in as somebody tried to open the

    20 window; is that right?

    21 A. Yes. When someone tried to open the window,

    22 one of the Bosnian Serb soldiers started shooting. A

    23 man next to me was wounded. I don't know whether it

    24 was by the glass or by ammunition, but I know he was

    25 wounded in the neck. I don't know whether there were

  84. 1 other people wounded, but holes could be seen in the

    2 ceiling above the window, as if bullets had hit there.

    3 When I looked, I saw it, so I don't know whether those

    4 holes were there before, but in any case the window

    5 panes did break.

    6 Q. Were you still thirsty?

    7 A. Yes, very thirsty. We asked for water.

    8 Someone communicated with the soldier outside. I heard

    9 them talking. I don't know who among the soldiers, nor

    10 who among the men, but probably the Bosnian Serb

    11 soldier said that bread would be brought in, and water,

    12 and after a while somebody did bring it. I don't know

    13 who brought it. I know that there was a jerrycan of

    14 water and they gave us a drop each, as they did in the

    15 truck. I remember opening my mouth and being given a

    16 drop of water. It hardly meant anything, because I was

    17 so thirsty.

    18 In the meantime, people were making a lot of

    19 noise, and then that same soldier came in again. I

    20 can't remember what he looked like. I think he had

    21 dark hair. And he said that we must not make a noise,

    22 otherwise we'd be killed. And he pointed his hand at

    23 one of the boys, one of the young men, a young man, and

    24 he said to him, "You are responsible for this. If they

    25 make a noise, I'll kill you." When he left, this young

  85. 1 man begged the men to keep quiet, not to make a noise,

    2 but the men were simply thirsty.

    3 Q. And the young man that the Bosnian Serb

    4 soldier pointed at was part of the group of Muslim men

    5 in the classroom?

    6 A. Yes. Yes.

    7 Q. Did there come a time, Witness, when soldiers

    8 came to ask for Muslim men from certain geographical

    9 locations to come out of the classroom?

    10 A. Yes. A soldier came. I can't remember

    11 whether it was the same one, but he did -- a soldier

    12 did come up and he said: Is there anyone from this

    13 location? I'm giving you examples. Cerska. I can't

    14 remember the names of all the villages. He may have

    15 mentioned three or four or five. But, for instance,

    16 from Cerska, from Glogova. And at the end, two men

    17 raised their hands and said, "We are from --" I don't

    18 know; somewhere, whether it was from Cerska, Glogova,

    19 or a third location, because I didn't remember

    20 everything.

    21 And they went outside. They were taken

    22 outside, and I heard blows and moans. They didn't come

    23 back.

    24 What I forgot to mention was that again it

    25 became very stuffy. We couldn't go to the toilet. The

  86. 1 room was full of urine. People were drinking urine

    2 from the floor. I saw that with my own eyes. They

    3 were so thirsty.

    4 And then, when darkness fell, from the other

    5 classrooms -- I assume it was from the other

    6 classrooms, because as I was entering I heard people

    7 talking in the other classrooms. Somebody in the

    8 corridor was saying something, probably one of the

    9 soldiers. He was saying, "Let three balijas come

    10 out." Was it three or four or five or two, I can't

    11 remember all the numbers. And while the people got

    12 down in front of the school, bursts of fire could be

    13 heard. And this was repeated every time. When he

    14 would say three or four or five men were to come out,

    15 they were taken in front of the school and shots were

    16 heard. I assume that the shooting was in front of the

    17 school, because it was so loud. And they went on like

    18 that until perhaps midnight. Perhaps it was midnight.

    19 I'm not quite sure. But anyway, it was very late.

    20 And then someone came, one of the soldiers

    21 came, and said that it was our turn now, that we should

    22 come out two by two, allegedly that we would be

    23 searched or checked or registered for exchange. I

    24 don't know exactly what he said, but something to that

    25 effect.

  87. 1 And I was wet with urine. I took off my

    2 T-shirt and one of the other men gave me a dry one. I

    3 put it on. And I asked my uncle, who was with me,

    4 whether we should go out together. He said, "No, we

    5 won't go out together." So I went out before him, with

    6 one of the other men, and after that I never saw him

    7 again.

    8 When I came out with this other man into the

    9 corridor, we were told there were one, two, or three

    10 soldiers, maybe more. But I think one of them, who was

    11 fair -- he had a camouflage uniform. I can't tell you

    12 what colour it was exactly, but I know it was some sort

    13 of a camouflage uniform. He wasn't in civilian

    14 clothes, at least. He told us to take off -- to strip

    15 to the waist, to take off everything up to the waist

    16 and to take off our shoes. I didn't have any shoes on;

    17 I only had socks on, because I had lost my shoes

    18 somewhere in the woods. So I took off my socks as

    19 well.

    20 First he tied up the man who was next to me,

    21 then he tied my hands behind my back. I don't know

    22 what he used to tie us up with. It wasn't wire, it

    23 wasn't metal. It was some kind of string, but very

    24 hard string that was cutting at our skin. But I was

    25 lucky that it wasn't -- my hands weren't tied too

  88. 1 tight. Perhaps I feigned trying to pull free, but I

    2 didn't manage anyway.

    3 So he pushed me into another classroom. I

    4 can't remember which one it was. But in any case, it

    5 was either the classroom next to the one we were in or

    6 the second from that door. There were a lot of clothes

    7 on the floor in that classroom. I could see it under

    8 my feet, even though it was dark. I could feel those

    9 clothes. And then roughly, and all this is very

    10 approximate, when they tied up everyone -- I don't know

    11 whether it was everyone -- one of the Bosnian Serb

    12 soldiers said that we should go out, and a column

    13 started. Actually, men filed past one after another.

    14 I sort of kept to the middle, maybe out of

    15 fear, maybe just spontaneously. I don't know how. I

    16 was always somewhere in the middle, though of course we

    17 weren't eager to get out first.

    18 What I forgot to say was while we were in the

    19 classroom, when they were shooting, the men were saying

    20 that we should run out all together and then someone

    21 would have a chance to survive. But nobody wanted to

    22 get killed. And others were saying that they weren't

    23 killing people, that there was the Red Cross or

    24 something.

    25 So shall I go back to where I stopped? We

  89. 1 were getting out. I was somewhere in the middle, down

    2 the steps. I don't know how many soldiers were in the

    3 corridor. When I left the school, it was dark, but I

    4 could still decipher -- if I can show you on the

    5 picture what I saw in front of the school.

    6 MR. CAYLEY: That's Exhibit 21/4. Let the

    7 record show the witness is now indicating on

    8 Prosecutor's Exhibit 21/4.

    9 A. Yes. It was roughly here [indicates]. I say

    10 "roughly" because I couldn't see clearly. But I was

    11 barefoot and I felt that there was something sticky

    12 underneath my feet. I assumed it was blood, but it was

    13 dark. And there was a very large pile here. I wasn't

    14 watching closely. I was walking with my head bent

    15 down. And we had at that time realised where we were

    16 going.

    17 After that we got on the truck. I don't know

    18 whether everybody got on the truck, but many people

    19 went on board.

    20 Q. Witness, if you could wait there one moment,

    21 and can you place your pointer where you said that it

    22 was a very large pile, and keep it there.

    23 A. Yes. It was here, but you cannot see it very

    24 clearly on the photograph [indicates]. Not everything

    25 is in the photograph. It was here [indicates]. I must

  90. 1 have passed by along this way [indicates]. Those are

    2 the moments that I don't remember very clearly, but I

    3 know it was a very large pile.

    4 Q. Witness, if you could wait there one moment.

    5 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the

    6 witness is indicating on that exhibit a point

    7 immediately in front of the doors into the school,

    8 which are slightly in shadow.

    9 A. Maybe even -- excuse me. Maybe further to

    10 the right [indicates], but it cannot be seen on the

    11 photograph.

    12 Q. What did you think this pile was that you

    13 saw?

    14 A. I thought that those were killed people,

    15 because throughout that time while we were in the

    16 classroom, there was shooting going on, so I thought

    17 that those must have been the people who had been

    18 killed, people from other classrooms. I couldn't see

    19 them, but I had heard noise. I could hear people

    20 talk. They may have transported them somewhere. They

    21 may have killed them. But I assumed that those were

    22 the people, the killed people.

    23 Q. Remember, Witness, we will finish you today,

    24 but speak slowly so that the interpreters can follow

    25 what you're saying.

  91. 1 Now, immediately you left the school.

    2 Immediately you left the school. Where did you go

    3 after that?

    4 A. A truck was stationed there, almost at the

    5 same spot, perhaps a little further left, towards the

    6 flat part of the ground, and it was facing the same

    7 direction where we had come from. The entrance, the

    8 door, was here, but something, a kind of plank, was put

    9 there, so we used that plank to climb aboard. I don't

    10 know how large the truck was. It was a big one. I

    11 don't know how big it was. I don't know if it was the

    12 same one. I couldn't tell you that.

    13 But once the truck was full, the sides of the

    14 truck were closed. There was no canvas on that part,

    15 at the rear, but it was on the other part of the

    16 truck. And somebody, probably a Bosnian Serb soldier,

    17 said that we should sit down. But we simply couldn't

    18 sit down, because we were crowded. We were standing

    19 next to one another like sardines.

    20 Then a shot could be heard. I don't know

    21 whether it was a burst of gunfire or a single bullet,

    22 but we heard a shot and somebody screamed on the

    23 truck. Maybe somebody got wounded. I don't know who

    24 it was who shouted. Anyway, there was shooting next to

    25 the truck and somebody on the truck was screaming, as

  92. 1 if he had been wounded. And at that moment we fell

    2 down on top of one another.

    3 And the situation was chaotic. We were all

    4 tied up. We couldn't hold ourselves, and our bodies

    5 kept pushing against the sides of the truck. I managed

    6 to remain somewhere near the side of the truck, but

    7 towards the mid-part of the truck, and I was on my

    8 knees. And I was squeezed by other people, and at that

    9 moment the truck started out and it travelled for about

    10 five or ten minutes. I cannot tell you for how long.

    11 It may have seemed long.

    12 But for a while we travelled along the

    13 asphalt road. The ride was not bumpy. And at one

    14 point it turned onto a macadam road and it stopped

    15 after maybe five or ten minutes, approximately.

    16 I recognised a teacher of mine behind me. I

    17 don't know how I managed to recognise him, because it

    18 was dark, but I just recognised him and I said, "Is

    19 that you, sir?" And he said, "Yes, it's me." And he

    20 asked me who I was, but I didn't reply.

    21 This all took place while the truck was

    22 moving, and then it stopped and we could hear shots.

    23 We could hear something hitting, tapping on the truck,

    24 and I think it was -- it sounded like rain, but it may

    25 have been bursts of gunfire. I don't know. Later it

  93. 1 turned out that those were gravels that were caused to

    2 fly by gunfire.

    3 And at one point somebody opened one side of

    4 the truck. I stood up. I don't know how I managed to

    5 stand up. I was tied up. But somehow I stood up.

    6 It's very hard for me to remember all the details from

    7 that time. And they wanted five balijas to come out,

    8 so some people went out. At that point I was standing

    9 and I could see that there were maybe two or three

    10 soldiers. For sure there were more than one, but I

    11 don't know how many.

    12 So when the people got out -- I don't know

    13 where exactly it was, where they stopped and when they

    14 got out -- the firing started, and then they would call

    15 out people in groups of five. There was a man who was

    16 behind me and whom I knew. He managed to untie his

    17 hands, and he asked me if I wanted him to untie my

    18 hands. And I said, "No. No, I don't want that,

    19 because I'm going to be killed. I don't want it."

    20 So after the next five had been called out,

    21 he jumped out. He pushed aside the two soldiers with

    22 his hands and he started to run. He ran into the dark

    23 and I couldn't see where he was going. I know that

    24 they were shooting after him. I don't know whether the

    25 soldiers were shooting or not. All I know is that the

  94. 1 man is no longer alive. He didn't make it out. I know

    2 that he had no place to run, no way to escape.

    3 And after that people stopped getting out.

    4 People didn't -- people no longer wanted to get out.

    5 We were very thirsty. And one of the captives, one of

    6 the people on the truck, started to shout, started to

    7 yell. He may have recognised a soldier there, and he

    8 spoke to him and he said, "I took care of you and your

    9 mother, Stana, and now you're killing these innocent

    10 people." I believe that the name he mentioned was

    11 Stana, but I cannot be a hundred per cent sure.

    12 Some people shouted, "Give us some water

    13 first and then kill us." I was really sorry that I

    14 would die thirsty, and I was trying to hide amongst the

    15 people as long as I could, like everybody else. I just

    16 wanted to live for another second or two. And when it

    17 was my turn, I jumped out with what I believe were four

    18 other people. I could feel the gravel beneath my

    19 feet. It hurt. And we were told to find a place for

    20 us. We went to the left side of the truck. Somebody

    21 must have indicated to us the way. I was walking with

    22 my head bent down and I wasn't feeling anything. I

    23 know that I didn't feel anything.

    24 I don't think I was afraid. I had made up my

    25 mind. I didn't understand why one of the soldiers had

  95. 1 told us to find a place, but when I approached the

    2 area, when we were on the right-hand side of the truck,

    3 I saw rows of killed people. It looked like they had

    4 been lined up one row after the other. I couldn't see

    5 the end of it, but I could somehow sense it, although

    6 it was dark.

    7 So when I reached my spot, at that point we

    8 were watching those dead people. You could tell that

    9 those were dead people there. There were several Serb

    10 soldiers there. I don't know how many there were, five

    11 or ten, but they were standing behind our backs. But

    12 it all happened very quickly, in a matter of seconds.

    13 And then I thought that I would die very

    14 fast, that I would not suffer. And I just thought that

    15 my mother would never know where I had ended up. This

    16 is what I was thinking as I was getting out of the

    17 truck. And when we reached the spot, somebody said,

    18 "Lie down." And when we started to fall down to the

    19 front, they were behind our backs, the shooting

    20 started.

    21 I fell down, and I don't know what happened

    22 then. I wasn't thinking. It wasn't my idea to fall

    23 down first and to survive like this, I just thought it

    24 was the end.

    25 I don't know whether I lost consciousness at

  96. 1 that point, maybe I was still conscious, but I don't

    2 remember that moment precisely. All I know is that

    3 while I was lying down, I felt pain in the right side

    4 of my chest. I felt pain on the right side, but I

    5 didn't know where I had been wounded, and I felt pain

    6 in my right arm. And I suffered. But I kept lying

    7 like that on my stomach with my head turned to the

    8 right.

    9 There was a man next to me who was moaning a

    10 lot. I don't know how he had been hit, maybe he was

    11 almost dead. I don't know who it was. All I could

    12 hear was his moans. I suffered too, but I didn't

    13 shout. I didn't cry out. I didn't know how seriously

    14 I had been wounded. I was waiting for another bullet

    15 to come and hit me and I was waiting to die.

    16 And then after they had brought another group

    17 of, again, probably five people, I think that they were

    18 moving from the left to the right, and this is at least

    19 what I could observe at that point. There were

    20 approximately five people.

    21 And then one of the soldiers said to an

    22 elderly man who had been sitting with me in the

    23 classroom, I assume he was addressing him, he told him

    24 to say, "Allah-u-ekber". I assumed it was an elderly

    25 man. I could tell it by his voice.

  97. 1 And the bursts of gunfire continued and the

    2 people fell down. I don't know how long it took. They

    3 kept bringing people up. I remember that elderly man,

    4 I assumed that he was an old man.

    5 And after that finished, I don't know how

    6 long it lasted; maybe one hour, or maybe ten minutes.

    7 But it all, to me, it all looked very long.

    8 The next group who was -- that was probably

    9 taken out after me was also shot at. And at that

    10 point, I felt a sudden sharp pain in my left leg. I

    11 thought that a bullet had hit me in my left foot. And

    12 I thought that bullets were hitting the gravel around

    13 me. They were firing in bursts of gunfire, and I was

    14 simply expecting the next bullet to come and hit me.

    15 But the gravel kept falling on me. I don't know how

    16 long it took them. I don't know how many rows of

    17 people there were left.

    18 But when they had finished, they laughed.

    19 They said, "Well, your government will be exchanging

    20 you even if you're dead." They would take a look at

    21 someone and they would make jokes, "Look at this guy,

    22 he looks like a cabbage." I don't know what else they

    23 were saying.

    24 And once they had finished, somebody said

    25 that all the dead should be inspected. I think that

  98. 1 the name mentioned was Jovo. It was told that all the

    2 dead should be inspected, and they were told that if

    3 they find a warm body, they should fire one more bullet

    4 into their head.

    5 So this man, I don't know whether it was Jovo

    6 or somebody else, he said, "I think that all the

    7 motherfuckers are dead."

    8 So I was thinking that maybe I wanted to call

    9 them to finish me off because I was suffering a lot.

    10 And I thought maybe if I don't die here, I will survive

    11 and then maybe I will take -- I will be taken away

    12 alive and that my suffering will only be prolonged.

    13 So while I was lying, at one point, and I

    14 kept silent all the time, I could see a military boot

    15 stomping next to my face. And I kept watching, I

    16 didn't close my eyes. But the man stepped over me, it

    17 was a soldier, and he fired into the head of a man who

    18 was next to me.

    19 And at that moment, I closed my eyes and I

    20 was hit in my right shoulder. I don't know what it

    21 was. I don't know whether it was a kind of

    22 fragmentation bullet or just gravel, but I don't think

    23 so, that it would have been gravel. Because I still

    24 have metal particles in my right arm, in my right

    25 chest, and also in my foot.

  99. 1 So after I'd been hit in my shoulder, I said

    2 to myself, "I've been wounded all over. How come I'm

    3 not dying?"

    4 I don't know where the soldier went, but they

    5 kept laughing. From time to time, a shot would be

    6 heard. They were killing people. And they mentioned

    7 something, they said something about Haris Silajdzic

    8 and our government, they said, "You would be exchanged

    9 by your government," and something to that effect.

    10 And after they had finished the job, again I

    11 thought that I should call out for help. I was still

    12 very thirsty. But I was sort of between life and

    13 death. I didn't know whether I wanted to live or to

    14 die anymore.

    15 I decided not to call out for them to shoot

    16 and kill me, but I was sort of praying to God that

    17 they'd come and kill me. But I decided not to call

    18 them and I was waiting to die.

    19 When they had finished and when the engine of

    20 the truck had started, they left. I don't know whether

    21 they left a guard behind or someone. But I kept lying

    22 as I was, and I changed the position of my head. I

    23 turned left. When I -- afterwards when I had reached

    24 the Dam, I saw a light. I don't know actually know

    25 whether it was actually a dam, but it was a kind of a

  100. 1 slope or a hill, but I wasn't aware of what it was,

    2 actually.

    3 So I turned my head, and I wasn't really

    4 afraid. I didn't know whether there were any soldiers

    5 there or not. I wasn't really thinking of what I

    6 should do. I simply stood there, remained there

    7 lying. I was still tied up. But it's possible that I

    8 could see a little better at that point. My eyes must

    9 have become accustomed to the dark after I had got off

    10 the truck.

    11 There were many people killed. I don't know

    12 how many, but a lot. At one point I raised my head and

    13 I saw that maybe one or two rows in front of me,

    14 somebody was moving. He was maybe two or three metres

    15 away from me. And I could tell he was moving and I

    16 asked, "Are you alive?" I whispered to him. And he

    17 said, "I'm alive. Come here and untie me, please."

    18 And I said, "I cannot. I'm wounded."

    19 But he kept calling me. And maybe, maybe one

    20 hour later, maybe 10 minutes later or 15 minutes later

    21 but it seemed rather long to me, I started turning

    22 around a little bit. This may have given me some

    23 strength, some force, and I realised that I could,

    24 perhaps, leave. That I could perhaps walk.

    25 And I kept rolling over the bodies. I did it

  101. 1 several times until I reached the man who was still

    2 alive. So I managed to roll up to his mouth. He was

    3 squeezed by the bodies. I know that he couldn't stand

    4 up.

    5 He didn't actually cut the string, but he was

    6 a very strong man and he cut it with his teeth. And I

    7 told you that it had been a rather strong, resistant

    8 kind of string which the soldier used to tie up my

    9 hands.

    10 Q. Witness, I'm sorry to interrupt you at this

    11 point in your testimony. But can you ensure that you

    12 don't name the man who went up to help. Can you not

    13 name him?

    14 A. I won't.

    15 Q. Please continue, I'm sorry.

    16 A. So I got on to my knees and I tried to untie

    17 him with my hands. Even though my hand was very

    18 painful, I could still manage. So I assumed that I

    19 wasn't hit in the bone. I kept thinking about all

    20 these things. And I asked him whether he had been

    21 wounded and he said, "Yes, in the head."

    22 I continued untying him with my teeth, trying

    23 to bite through that string, each strand of the

    24 string. And this went on for some time. He was a big

    25 man, a strong man. Very strong.

  102. 1 And I managed to untie two of the strands or

    2 my -- my hands were cut by this string, and in the

    3 meantime, we saw lights, a vehicle was coming towards

    4 us. I don't know whether it was going along the same

    5 road, but the lights were turned towards us.

    6 And I said, "A truck is coming." I assumed

    7 it was a truck, maybe it wasn't. And he kept insisting

    8 that I should go on untying him because he was afraid I

    9 would leave him, and he wanted to escape because he was

    10 probably only lightly wounded in the head, I saw that

    11 later. And I continued and the truck really did get

    12 close to us. It came closer and closer.

    13 I said, "Really, there is a truck

    14 approaching." And I don't know how I helped him or

    15 whether he did it on his own, but somehow he managed to

    16 get up, though he was still tied up, and he started

    17 walking across the bodies. I don't know where.

    18 I crawled after him on my hands and knees. I

    19 couldn't stand up. My leg was hurting me very badly.

    20 And as we went over the bodies, I couldn't see who it

    21 was, but it was a terrible sight. Somebody had been

    22 hit in the head, and the inside had spilled over. I

    23 didn't see anyone alive.

    24 And when I had passed over those bodies, I

    25 don't know for how long I crawled over those bodies,

  103. 1 but when I came to the end of the bodies, I crawled

    2 down some rocks. If I can show you that. Can I show

    3 you?

    4 Q. Witness, if you could pause there for a

    5 moment?

    6 MR. CAYLEY: And if the witness could be

    7 shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 22/3.

    8 Q. And in order to finish this today, we'll try

    9 to move through this quite quickly.

    10 Now first of all, if you could answer a

    11 question for me, Witness. Is this the location where

    12 the execution took place?

    13 A. Yes, it is. I recognised it the next day

    14 after the execution that that was 100 per cent that

    15 place. I am quite convinced of that.

    16 MR. CAYLEY: And let the record show that the

    17 witness has identified Prosecutor's Exhibit 22/3.

    18 MR. CAYLEY: Now, if the witness could be

    19 shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 22/5.

    20 Q. Because, Witness, wait one moment, because

    21 22/5 you will be able to explain to the Judges the

    22 location of where you escaped from.

    23 A. Roughly from somewhere here [indicates]. We

    24 were shot at at our backs towards the Dam. Of course I

    25 didn't know it was a dam then. Then we took this route

  104. 1 and went this way, but it was green then. And

    2 somewhere down there, we entered a concrete ditch.

    3 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the

    4 witness is indicating on Prosecutor's Exhibit 22/5 that

    5 he and the other individual who escaped moved from the

    6 left hand -- mid left-hand side of this photograph to

    7 the right-hand side of this photograph off the

    8 embankment of the Dam and into some woods that he said

    9 were greener at the time. It was summer, and they are

    10 on the right-hand side of the photograph.

    11 A. So about eight or ten metres down the canal

    12 [indicates]. The man who was with me went in front of

    13 me. I don't know how I got down, but I know that I was

    14 in the ditch.

    15 The man told me his name. We didn't know

    16 each other. I told him mine. We weren't so afraid

    17 because there were bushes but I was in great pain. I

    18 was suffering very badly. I was naked to the waist

    19 down and barefooted. The man had a T-shirt on, a green

    20 one, and a vest, an undervest. He took it off and tore

    21 it up and bandaged my wounds.

    22 When he bandaged me, I fell asleep on his lap

    23 because I hadn't slept for a long time. I may have

    24 slept on the truck, but it's not really sleep.

    25 Q. Witness, if I could ask you one question.

  105. 1 The execution itself, did that take place in the early

    2 hours of the 15th of July of 1995 as far as you can

    3 recall?

    4 A. Would you repeat the question, please?

    5 Q. The execution, did it take place in the early

    6 morning hours of the 15th of July of 1995?

    7 A. I don't know whether it was the 15th of July,

    8 but it was about midnight. It may have been after

    9 midnight, 1.00 or 2.00, but I don't know exactly.

    10 Q. Now, the last part of your testimony we'll

    11 move through very quickly so I would just ask you some

    12 questions.

    13 Did there come a time when you moved away

    14 from this location near the Dam and, in fact, you

    15 climbed up some hills so that you had a view of the Dam

    16 beneath you?

    17 A. Yes, we stayed there until the morning.

    18 Actually, he woke me up and asked me where shall we

    19 go. I said, "I don't know." But since there was a

    20 forest to the right of the ditch, we entered the

    21 forest. He went first. There were a lot of thorns. I

    22 crawled after him. He picked mushrooms and he found a

    23 small apple. We were very thirsty, but there was no

    24 water in the ditch where we had been.

    25 And walking through the forest, we reached

  106. 1 the top of a hill. Can I show it to you on the

    2 photograph? We saw a guard walking along some rocks.

    3 We didn't know it was a dam. He was walking there and

    4 there was a machine. I think it was a machine on the

    5 Dam.

    6 Q. Witness, if you could wait one moment.

    7 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown

    8 Prosecutor's Exhibit 126.

    9 Q. The other man that was with you, would you

    10 have survived if it hadn't been for him, Witness?

    11 A. No, no, I wouldn't have survived. That's for

    12 sure.

    13 Q. Now, this is a view looking down.

    14 A. We went from the ditch over here [indicates]

    15 into the woods and we climbed up here. And we saw a

    16 guard with a rifle walking along the Dam. Not here,

    17 but up there [indicates].

    18 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the

    19 witness is indicating that he and his colleague climbed

    20 a hill which can be seen as a wooded area in the rear

    21 area of the photograph.

    22 Q. Now, Witness, you shaded in that square for

    23 me last night on another photograph. It's a square

    24 with hatched markings across it. Can you explain to

    25 the Judges what that is?

  107. 1 A. I'm sorry. So we didn't see this part from

    2 the woods [indicates], but we saw the upper part of the

    3 Dam, I call it a "dam". I didn't see the water, I just

    4 saw the guard. And we didn't see the bodies here. We

    5 decided to go back because we were surrounded by

    6 villages everywhere.

    7 So we came back down the hill into the

    8 ditch. And the man who was with me, he went to bring

    9 me water. I don't know where he went. But I stayed

    10 behind in the wood, and he didn't come back for a long

    11 time. I thought perhaps he had left.

    12 After a few minutes, perhaps it was minutes,

    13 ten, twenty, I don't know, he came back carrying water

    14 or a broken can of some sort or a shoe or something.

    15 And then we decided to cross over to the

    16 other hill where we could see some burned down houses.

    17 They can't be seen on this photograph. And we passed

    18 beneath this plateau where the executions took place.

    19 And we passed down there, we took a risk, somebody

    20 could have killed us, but we entered the wood on the

    21 other side, which I can show you.

    22 Can I show you the road we crossed, the

    23 road? It can't be seen on this photograph.

    24 We went to the woods on another hill. This

    25 may have lasted hours because we didn't walk normally.

  108. 1 The man who was with me went some 50 metres ahead. I

    2 crawled, I sometimes hopped on one leg with a stick.

    3 He kept begging me to follow.

    4 I was exhausted and hungry and thirsty, but I

    5 couldn't walk. I may have been able to live for

    6 sometime lying there but I couldn't walk I was so

    7 exhausted.

    8 And we got to the hill on the other side. We

    9 emerged from the woods into a meadow. And then we saw

    10 a river or rather the part of the Dam, not the Dam

    11 itself, but the water behind it, we thought it was a

    12 river.

    13 After a while we heard an engine, and I saw a

    14 loader collecting dead bodies and loading them onto

    15 something. I don't know whether it was a tractor or a

    16 truck. But there was a very large pile of bodies. I

    17 can't remember how many. I was in great pain. What I

    18 have drawn is roughly, very roughly. It may have been

    19 larger or smaller. When I cast a glance just once,

    20 there may have been so many people. I don't know

    21 exactly. There were really a lot. The man who was

    22 with me may know more, because he was in better shape.

    23 I can't tell you the number. I don't know.

    24 Q. Witness, so the shaded area on this

    25 photograph represents the area that you saw, the

  109. 1 approximate area that you saw covered with bodies that

    2 morning?

    3 A. Yes, approximately. It may have been

    4 smaller. It wasn't absolutely all of it covered. It

    5 wasn't right to the edges. I really can't say. It may

    6 be approximately like this, it may have been larger,

    7 maybe smaller, but that is how it looked like to me.

    8 Q. And that is the same area in which you saw

    9 the excavator loading bodies?

    10 A. Yes. Yes, the excavator. I think that it

    11 was yellow. I think it was yellow and it was big and

    12 it had wheels. I think it had wheels. I'm not quite

    13 sure.

    14 Q. Now, to complete your testimony -- I'm sorry

    15 to rush you, but time is running out -- I think you

    16 then spent four days in the forest with the other

    17 gentleman and then I think you reached

    18 Bosnian-controlled territory; is that right?

    19 A. Yes. Four days we spent there. We wandered

    20 around. We didn't know where to go. First we heard

    21 shells and shooting. We thought that the front lines

    22 could be nearby. We simply wandered around not knowing

    23 where we were, where we were going.

    24 On one hill we noticed a TV receiver. I

    25 think it was Majevica. We thought we'd go to Tuzla or

  110. 1 somewhere there. And then we followed the streams. We

    2 got lost. We passed through villages. And we happened

    3 to come out in the territory of the BH army. But this

    4 was by chance. We didn't see any BH army soldiers. We

    5 were going along a stream, a village of Vitinice, and

    6 we saw two soldiers digging trenches, Serb soldiers.

    7 We also came across soldiers in the woods, but we were

    8 lucky that he didn't kill us.

    9 I was all covered in blood, dirty. It was

    10 raining. I was cold. The man with me carried me,

    11 encouraging me, and if we hadn't crossed into that

    12 territory that day, I think I wouldn't have been able

    13 to go forward; I would have been left behind.

    14 We heard a male and female voice talking. We

    15 didn't know where we were, whether we had crossed the

    16 lines, whether we had entered the BH-army-controlled

    17 territory. But they were talking about Srebrenica. I

    18 can't remember what. I just heard, "Allah will pay

    19 them for this." They were talking about killings, and

    20 from that we concluded that they were Muslims.

    21 Q. Witness, if you could just briefly look at

    22 three photographs. I don't have exhibit numbers on

    23 mine, but these are three photographs that were taken

    24 when you reached --

    25 MR. CAYLEY: What are the exhibit numbers of

  111. 1 these, Mr. Registrar?

    2 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Exhibit 123,

    3 124, and 125.

    4 MR. CAYLEY: If you could place these in

    5 front of the witness. They're not to go on the ELMO,

    6 because they'll identify him.

    7 Q. Witness, could you just confirm that these

    8 were photographs that were taken of your torso, left

    9 arm, on left foot after you arrived in

    10 Bosnian-controlled territory? You can just answer yes

    11 or no.

    12 A. Yes. Yes, they are. Yes, they are. They

    13 are the wounds on my body. And I assume it was

    14 fragmentation bullets, because I have pieces of metal

    15 in my foot and in my arm and in my right side, but I

    16 can't say for certain.

    17 Q. Witness, thank you very much indeed.

    18 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I have no further

    19 questions for the witness. I can now offer him for

    20 cross-examination.

    21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    22 Mr. Cayley.

    23 Witness, you must be tired, but we have to

    24 come to the end of your testimony, so now you're going

    25 to answer questions which Mr. Visnjic, I see, Defence

  112. 1 attorney, is going to put to you.

    2 Mr. Visnjic, you have the floor.

    3 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    4 Mr. President.

    5 Cross-examined by Mr. Visnjic:

    6 Q. Witness O, I should like to go back to the

    7 beginning of your testimony. You described at one

    8 point the uniform of the men to whom you surrendered

    9 when you left the woods. You recognised two basic

    10 types of uniforms. My question is the following: Did

    11 you notice any particular insignia on those uniforms of

    12 units or anything like that, anything written on them,

    13 any ribbons or the like?

    14 A. No, I cannot say that I noticed any emblems

    15 or insignia. No, I can't say that. I really can't say

    16 what they looked like.

    17 Q. My second question has to do with the same

    18 time frame. In your examination-in-chief you described

    19 a combat vehicle of the army of the Bosnian Serbs with

    20 the words "queen of death" written on it.

    21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could we show

    22 the witness Exhibit 95, with the help of the usher,

    23 please.

    24 Q. On this photograph that you see, in the

    25 left-hand corner, do you recognise that vehicle, or was

  113. 1 the vehicle you saw similar to this one?

    2 A. I don't recognise the vehicle, but it was

    3 similar. I said that on the tank, which was

    4 greyish/greenish, plain colour, and the words "the

    5 queen of death" were written on it. But a vehicle next

    6 to it was of this type, with wheels. I don't know what

    7 it had on it, whether it was machine-guns. Perhaps a

    8 machine-gun or so, but I cannot remember these

    9 barrels. There may have been another vehicle. I know

    10 there was one for sure of this type.

    11 Q. If you don't mind, could you look closer at

    12 this photograph. Can you see what is written on this

    13 vehicle, on the side?

    14 A. Yes, I do see it. It says "queen of death."

    15 Q. Could you just tell Their Honours what colour

    16 is this vehicle, the main colour that this vehicle is

    17 painted in?

    18 A. The main colour? You see white spots on it.

    19 I think it is camouflage colour. It's not plain.

    20 Q. Doesn't it look blue?

    21 A. No, I don't think so.

    22 Q. Thank you. Now let us go to the event in the

    23 meadow next to Sandici. During your

    24 examination-in-chief you said that one of the soldiers

    25 with a bandanna said that they were from Serbia.

  114. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Apart from saying that, could you conclude on

    3 any other basis that he came from Serbia? Did he use a

    4 different accent or did he have any other insignia or

    5 something characteristic?

    6 A. I don't know whether he had any insignia. I

    7 can't say that he was from Serbia, though that is what

    8 he said. I don't know whether he had another accent.

    9 I don't know anyone from Serbia, so I don't recognise

    10 the accent.

    11 Q. My next question: Could you tell us whether

    12 the soldiers that were taking you from Bratunac to the

    13 school, and the guards in the school, and the soldiers

    14 who executed the people, were they members of the same

    15 unit? Had you seen any one of them in several spots or

    16 did they come from different units?

    17 A. I don't know whether they were from the same

    18 unit. I didn't notice the same men. They may have

    19 been. But I wasn't really interested. I didn't look

    20 much, and I can't confirm that, but they wore similar

    21 uniforms.

    22 Q. Thank you.

    23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

    24 I have no further questions of this witness. Thank

    25 you.

  115. 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

    2 very much, Mr. Visnjic.

    3 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I don't have any

    4 further questions in re-examination for the witness.

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

    6 very much, Mr. Cayley.

    7 Judge Riad.

    8 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    9 Mr. President. I have one question, I think.

    10 Questioned by the Court:

    11 JUDGE RIAD: Good afternoon, Witness O. You

    12 must be tired by now.

    13 A. Good afternoon.

    14 JUDGE RIAD: The same question which the

    15 Defence counsel asked you. You heard the soldiers

    16 saying, "You are from Serbia." Were they introducing

    17 each other to each other, saying -- one would say, "I'm

    18 from Serbia," the other would say, "I'm from Sarajevo,"

    19 the third one would call him whatever? Did you notice

    20 this, or what was it exactly? Why was he saying, "I'm

    21 from Serbia," if you were listening?

    22 A. He wasn't saying, "I am from Serbia." He

    23 said, as far as I heard, at least, "We are from

    24 Serbia." I don't know whether he repeated that several

    25 times. And I also don't know whether other people

  116. 1 said, "I'm from Sarajevo, I'm from Bratunac," or

    2 something like that.

    3 JUDGE RIAD: He said "we," not "I." He said,

    4 "We are from Serbia"?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 JUDGE RIAD: And that's all you know about

    7 it.

    8 The second thing, which is -- I don't want to

    9 disturb you with this memory, but when the shooting

    10 started, did you lie down before the shooting started?

    11 Because you said, "We lay down and then the shooting

    12 started." Did they order you to lie down and then they

    13 shot you lying down, or you fell down because of the

    14 shooting?

    15 A. Maybe it wasn't interpreted correctly. I

    16 didn't fall. When they said we should lie down, as I

    17 moved forward, the shooting started. I didn't throw

    18 myself to the ground not to be killed, because there

    19 was hardly any chance for me to survive.

    20 JUDGE RIAD: So just to see -- to be able to

    21 visualise it. The order came that you should lie down

    22 first, and then shooting started; is that right?

    23 A. Yes, yes. To lie forward. To fall forward.

    24 JUDGE RIAD: And then they shoot after you

    25 lie down?

  117. 1 A. No. While we were falling down, lying down.

    2 JUDGE RIAD: I see it was at the same time;

    3 lying down and shooting were at the same time? I just

    4 want to understand.

    5 A. This was a matter of seconds. This happened

    6 simultaneously.

    7 JUDGE RIAD: And this perhaps allowed some

    8 people not to survive; is that so? You lay down and

    9 somebody fell on you?

    10 A. No. No one fell over me, no. I don't know

    11 whether anyone even touched me. Maybe the man next to

    12 me, but I didn't feel him, so I don't know whether he

    13 touched me. I don't know whether I hit myself when I

    14 fell. I don't know whether I was conscious. I know

    15 that while I was lying there, I was in pain.

    16 JUDGE RIAD: Because you got a bullet, as you

    17 said. Was it a machine-gun or was it individual

    18 shooting on each one, if you remember?

    19 A. Those were seconds, so I really can't

    20 remember. But they certainly weren't single bullet

    21 shots. This was the moment of dying, so I don't know

    22 if anyone could remember. These are terrible moments.

    23 JUDGE RIAD: Well, I'm glad you don't

    24 remember it. Thank you very much.

    25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, I

  118. 1 should just like to clarify a minor point. When you

    2 were in the meadow a soldier told you, "You won't have

    3 dinner tonight," and you said that this was ironic.

    4 What did you mean?

    5 A. Surely it's ironic. If we were beaten,

    6 placed into hangars and onto trucks, it would be

    7 strange if they had given us dinner. One of the

    8 soldiers said that we would be having no dinner.

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you

    10 didn't establish a connection between not having dinner

    11 and going to be killed?

    12 A. You see, at that point in time I still didn't

    13 believe I would be killed, not then. I wouldn't have

    14 gone there if I had known that I would have been

    15 killed, because, after all, there were a lot of

    16 people. They could kill one man, two, or ten, but they

    17 can't kill thousands.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In any

    19 event, Witness, did you have the impression that the

    20 soldiers who were there and who said that knew already

    21 what could or would happen to you?

    22 A. I don't know whether all of them knew, but I

    23 have a feeling that some of them knew, maybe the

    24 majority.

    25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

  119. 1 We'll stop there.

    2 Witness O, you have answered questions by the

    3 Prosecution, by the Defence, by the Judges. Is there

    4 anything else that you would like to say and that you

    5 have not had a chance to say?

    6 A. From all of whatever I have said and what I

    7 saw, I could come to the conclusion that this was

    8 extremely well organised. It was systematic killing.

    9 And that the organisers of that do not deserve to be at

    10 liberty. And if I had the right and courage, in the

    11 name of all those innocents and all those victims, I

    12 would forgive the actual perpetrators of the

    13 executions, because they were misled. That's all.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    15 Witness. You have finished your testimony. You have

    16 many years before you to live, and irrespective of the

    17 people responsible for these acts and the ethnic origin

    18 of those people, such acts may not be repeated. And I

    19 think that you share that feeling, that such things may

    20 not be done to human beings. You have a whole life

    21 before you to say that, and not only to say it, but to

    22 live along those lines. And I think you have good

    23 reason to live, even though there were moments when you

    24 wanted to die. But there are very strong and very good

    25 reasons for you to make the best of this life, to tell

  120. 1 the world and tell people that we must not accept a

    2 repetition of such acts.

    3 Witness O, don't move. We just have a few

    4 points to deal with with the parties. I think there

    5 are several exhibits on the part of the Prosecutor.

    6 Mr. Cayley?

    7 MR. CAYLEY: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President.

    8 If I could apply for admission formally into evidence

    9 of Prosecutor's Exhibit 123, 124, 125, and 126. 123,

    10 124, and 125 are the three photographs of the witness's

    11 injuries, and 126 is the photographic copy of a

    12 photograph of the Dam on which the witness indicated

    13 the area of the Dam that was covered in bodies that he

    14 saw.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Cayley,

    16 I think there is another exhibit, 124, which has to be

    17 under seal, I think. I'm asking you this because of

    18 the identity of the witness, the three photos of the

    19 witness. The three should be tendered under seal?

    20 MR. CAYLEY: You're quite right,

    21 Mr. President. Certainly one of the photographs

    22 identifies him by his image, so I think it would be

    23 safest if all three are placed under the seal of the

    24 Court.

    25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

  121. 1 Mr. Visnjic, have you any objections?

    2 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] No,

    3 Mr. President.

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You have no

    5 exhibits, I think. You used those that have already

    6 been tendered, I think.

    7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that is

    8 correct, Mr. President. We used the exhibits of the

    9 Prosecutor.

    10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In that

    11 case, for reasons of caution, I think it would be

    12 better to admit under seal Exhibits 124 and 125,

    13 Mr. Cayley. Otherwise there may be a risk of

    14 identification, even in the case of Exhibit 125.

    15 So these exhibits will be admitted, 124 and

    16 125, under seal, Mr. Dubuisson. You have taken note of

    17 that?

    18 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes,

    19 Mr. President.

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] There we

    21 are. We have finished for today.

    22 Witness O, stay seated for a few more

    23 minutes, in the interests of your protection, and we

    24 will resume work tomorrow at 9.30 to try and hear the

    25 two remaining witnesses, to try and avoid them waiting

  122. 1 or having to come back again. Thank you very much for

    2 your cooperation and your work, and we'll meet again

    3 tomorrow at 9.30. And there is a possibility of

    4 continuing tomorrow until 3, as I have said.

    5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

    6 at 2.40 p.m., to be reconvened on

    7 Friday, the 14th day of April, 2000, at

    8 9.30 a.m.