1. 1 Friday, 14th April 2000

    2 [Open session]

    3 [The witness entered court]

    4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

    5 [The accused entered court]

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

    7 morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning to the

    8 interpreters. I can hear you too. Thank you. The

    9 technical booth, the legal assistants, the Prosecution,

    10 the Defence, the court reporters, General Krstic. Good

    11 morning to you all. I also wish the public good

    12 morning.

    13 We already have a witness in the courtroom.

    14 I think it is Witness P. You're now going to read the

    15 solemn declaration that the usher is going to give

    16 you. Please go ahead.

    17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

    18 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

    19 and nothing but the truth.


    21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be

    23 seated. Are you comfortable, Witness P?

    24 THE WITNESS: I'm fine, thank you.

    25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Have you

  2. 1 had a good rest?

    2 THE WITNESS: Yes.

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So please

    4 be at ease. I think it is Mr. Harmon who is going to

    5 put questions to you, so for the moment you will be

    6 answering questions put to you by the Prosecutor.

    7 Mr. Harmon, you have the floor.

    8 Excuse me. Yes, there is a minor matter that

    9 we have to attend to. Witness P, the registrar is

    10 going to show you a piece of paper with your name

    11 written on it. Look at it, please, and tell us, simply

    12 by saying yes or no, whether that is indeed your name.

    13 THE WITNESS: Yes.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So it is

    15 your name indeed.

    16 THE WITNESS: Yes.

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Fine. So,

    18 Mr. Harmon, you have the floor now.

    19 MR. HARMON: Good morning, Mr. President,

    20 Your Honours; good morning, counsel; good morning,

    21 Witness P.

    22 Mr. President, before I begin my examination

    23 of Witness P, I just want to inform Your Honours that

    24 after Witness P we have one additional witness to call

    25 for today, and at the end of the testimony of the

  3. 1 second witness we would like to introduce some

    2 documents. The introduction of those documents will

    3 not take more than 15 minutes. So we can schedule the

    4 day accordingly. I bring that to Your Honours'

    5 attention and I will now commence my examination of

    6 Witness P.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Allow

    8 me to say to you that all the witnesses are very

    9 special.

    10 MR. HARMON: Thank you.

    11 Examined by Mr. Harmon:

    12 Q. Witness P, could you tell us how old you are?

    13 A. I'm 40.

    14 Q. And are you a Muslim by faith?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Before the creation of the UN safe area of

    17 Srebrenica, were you a member of the Territorial

    18 Defence?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Were you wounded?

    21 A. I was wounded on the 16th of June, 1992, by

    22 orders of the army command, or rather the Territorial

    23 Defence. I was appointed to working on the collection

    24 of humanitarian aid in the local community.

    25 Q. So following your injury you were released

  4. 1 from the Territorial Defence?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. At the time of the fall of the enclave in

    4 July of 1995, were you a member of the Bosnian Muslim

    5 army?

    6 A. I was not.

    7 Q. Now, I'd like to focus your attention on the

    8 fall of the enclave in July of 1995, specifically on

    9 the 11th of July, 1995. At that point in time were you

    10 married and did you have children?

    11 A. Yes. I was married and had four children.

    12 Q. And could you tell the Judges what happened

    13 on the 11th of July that caused you and your family to

    14 go in different directions?

    15 A. We simply received orders from the civilian

    16 structures that we had -- all of us had to go to the

    17 enclave of Srebrenica. Our assignment was that all of

    18 us should go towards Susnjari, especially the men,

    19 whereas the men [sic] and women went to UNPROFOR, to

    20 Potocari. We got to a hill called Lehovici, where we

    21 split up. So all the women and children went to the

    22 battalion compound in Potocari and the men towards

    23 Susnjari.

    24 Q. Why was there a distinction between where the

    25 women went and where the men went?

  5. 1 A. Simply we didn't dare. We didn't dare go to

    2 Potocari. We couldn't trust them. So only the women

    3 and children dared go to Potocari.

    4 Q. When you say "we couldn't trust them," who

    5 are you referring to as "them"?

    6 A. The Serbs, because when they captured the

    7 enclave, they controlled the UN. They took their

    8 vehicles. They occupied the enclave. So we didn't

    9 dare go to Potocari.

    10 Q. Now, Susnjari, how many men gathered -- men

    11 and boys gathered at that location, approximately?

    12 A. The figure ranged between thirteen and

    13 fifteen thousand, according to the municipal

    14 authorities. The figure could not be established, but

    15 I think it was between thirteen and fifteen thousand.

    16 Q. Do you know the range of ages of those males

    17 who had gathered at Susnjari?

    18 A. From 16 to 50 or 60 maybe. Though there were

    19 some women, or rather girls, who followed their

    20 boyfriends there, men. A smaller number of women,

    21 maybe some 200 or 300.

    22 Q. Are you able to estimate the number of men

    23 amongst that group who were armed?

    24 A. Well, about one third had weapons in that

    25 group.

  6. 1 Q. Witness P, did you have a weapon?

    2 A. No, I did not.

    3 Q. Now, I understand that the people in that

    4 group of approximately 15.000 people left the enclave

    5 in a column; is that correct?

    6 A. Yes. The column was formed. The order was

    7 that we had to pass through Serb lines. So it was

    8 about 7.200 kilometers to free territory, to Tuzla, so

    9 we had to break through the lines. And the column was

    10 formed at the very entrance to the place Buljim, so

    11 this column was some ten kilometers long.

    12 Q. And in which direction did the column

    13 advance?

    14 A. It advanced towards Konjevic Polje. We

    15 passed Nova Kasaba and then on towards Tuzla.

    16 Q. Now, Witness P, I'm not going to ask you

    17 questions about your experiences in the woods --

    18 perhaps the Judges would like to inquire about that,

    19 perhaps counsel will inquire about that -- but I want

    20 to fast-forward the experiences that you had to the

    21 13th of July, when there was a decision taken by you

    22 and by others to surrender to the Bosnian Serb army.

    23 Can you tell the Judges, did you surrender, and can you

    24 tell the Judges why you did?

    25 A. Yes. My group -- a relative of mine was

  7. 1 seriously wounded, my cousin, and there was a small

    2 group left of some 30 men. The night between the 12th

    3 and the 13th we were cut off from the big column. We

    4 were in a stream. It was foggy. We didn't know where

    5 we were.

    6 In the morning there was heavy shelling.

    7 Shells were falling around us. There was an

    8 ultimatum. They were calling us out on the loudspeaker

    9 that we had to surrender, that we should carry the

    10 wounded, that we should be exchanged, according to the

    11 Geneva Conventions, that no one would be heard. There

    12 was a lot of hesitation amongst us whether we should

    13 try to pull out or to surrender to the Serb soldiers at

    14 Kravica. And after a time they said they would begin

    15 the countdown, and the order was to collect the

    16 wounded. A number of people were killing themselves,

    17 committing suicide. They didn't want to surrender.

    18 When we carried down the wounded to Kravica, a column

    19 was formed towards Konjevic Polje.

    20 Q. Now, you said a number of people committed

    21 suicide. Did you see people commit suicide, and do you

    22 know why they did commit suicide?

    23 A. Yes. Yes, I did see it. I don't know.

    24 There were poisons that were being thrown, poisonous

    25 gases, and people lost control. They knew more or less

  8. 1 what lay in store for them, that they would be killed

    2 or put into camps. And I saw two brothers. I don't

    3 know their names. First they embraced each other.

    4 They had an automatic rifle. There was a scream. They

    5 opened a burst of fire to one another. Then there was

    6 another group of people that threw a bomb into the

    7 group, and then four or five of them were wounded.

    8 Q. Now, Witness P, I'm going to ask you to talk

    9 just a little bit slower, because the interpreters need

    10 to follow your testimony.

    11 A. Yes, I'll do that.

    12 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me now the group of

    13 people who threw the bomb they were from the group of

    14 Muslims or the group of Serbs?

    15 MR. HARMON:

    16 Q. Did the people that threw the bomb that you

    17 just testified about, were they Muslims committing

    18 suicide or were they Serbs killing Muslims?

    19 A. I think it was Muslims who were killing

    20 themselves. I heard that they may have been Serbs

    21 too. At that moment, I couldn't distinguish one from

    22 the other. They were all mixed together.

    23 JUDGE RIAD: And the poisonous gases, they

    24 were thrown by the Muslims to commit suicide?

    25 A. No, it was the shells with poisonous gases.

  9. 1 I could feel it myself, my eyes were stinging and one

    2 was very thirsty and one could feel it on one's own

    3 skin.

    4 MR. HARMON:

    5 Q. Now, Witness P, how many people along with

    6 you went down to surrender on the 13th of July?

    7 A. I said that there may have been some 30 men

    8 in my group; I didn't count them. We had four or five

    9 wounded. And on the asphalt road, we came across a

    10 large group that had surrendered at Konjevic Polje,

    11 there were 300 or so people and they had some 20

    12 wounded.

    13 THE INTERPRETER: Could we ask the witness to

    14 move away from the microphone, please.

    15 MR. HARMON:

    16 Q. I've been asked by the interpreters if you

    17 can move a little bit away from the microphone.

    18 Now, Witness P, when you surrendered to the

    19 Bosnian Serb soldiers. Can you describe their

    20 appearance, how they were dressed?

    21 A. They were wearing camouflage uniforms in dark

    22 blue, dark blue camouflage uniforms.

    23 Q. Did you see any people in dark green

    24 camouflage uniforms?

    25 A. Let me see. At that moment, I didn't really

  10. 1 distinguish. We were all frightened. I know that they

    2 all had camouflage uniforms. Whether they were lighter

    3 in colour or darker in colour, I really couldn't tell.

    4 Q. Now, do you know the difference between

    5 police camouflage uniforms and army camouflage

    6 uniforms?

    7 A. At the time, I didn't, but later I saw on

    8 television that there was a difference, but at that

    9 moment, I really can't remember whether there was any

    10 difference.

    11 Q. All right. Tell the Judges what happened

    12 after you surrendered; where did you go?

    13 A. When we carried down the group of wounded to

    14 Konjevic Polje, this group of mine, between 250 and 300

    15 men.

    16 The order was to lay down the wounded at the

    17 cross roads at Konjevic Polje. One of the Serbs told

    18 us that they would take over the care of the wounded.

    19 They put us up in a hangar which used to be a kind of

    20 shopping area and some people started bringing water,

    21 but it wasn't enough. There were only two or three

    22 bucket fulls of water.

    23 We stayed there for some 20 minutes and then

    24 the order came to get on to trucks. I ran out and I

    25 saw three or four trucks. I don't remember exactly

  11. 1 whether there were three or four. They were parked at

    2 the very crossroads at Konjevic Polje.

    3 The trucks were facing Milici and Nova

    4 Kasaba. The trucks were covered with canvas. I

    5 couldn't see, and I don't remember the licence plates

    6 nor whom they belonged to but I think they were

    7 civilian trucks. They had canvas covers, and I think

    8 they belonged to the Boksit company, I think. I'm not

    9 sure. And we had to climb on to the trucks and the

    10 truck I was in started towards Nova Kasaba.

    11 Then we passed a sports field that used to be

    12 used before the war, and the order was to get off the

    13 bus, the truck, I'm sorry. When we started getting off

    14 to our right-hand side, I saw a group of Serb soldiers

    15 who were waiting for us there.

    16 The order was that all the equipment that we

    17 had on us, except for money and gold, which they had

    18 taken from us at the very beginning in Kravica, that we

    19 had to throw those things on to a big pile. And there

    20 was a big pile of bags and backpacks and there were

    21 some poplar trees there, and we got off the truck in a

    22 line and entered this stadium.

    23 The stadium was full of men. According to my

    24 estimate, there were between 2.500 to 3.000 men and

    25 they were all sitting there in a -- within the

  12. 1 compound. And my group that got off the trucks, we

    2 formed a new row there in the playground, sports field.

    3 MR. HARMON: Now, let me have Prosecutor's

    4 Exhibit 12/4 and place this on the ELMO.

    5 Q. Witness P, I'm going to ask you if you can

    6 identify this location that's depicted in this image.

    7 Do you recognise that?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. What is that?

    10 A. This is the stadium at Nova Kasaba. This is

    11 the goal [indicates]. And we stopped here somewhere

    12 next to the trees. This is the road to Konjevic Polje

    13 to Nova Kasaba, and this is where I entered the stadium

    14 [indicates], the sports field.

    15 MR. HARMON: Indicating for the record that

    16 the entry into the stadium was midway along the line of

    17 trees that boarders the road that goes from the top of

    18 the image to the bottom of the image.

    19 Q. Now, this stadium, this football field, is

    20 the location where you said there were thousands of men

    21 on it; is that correct?

    22 A. Yes, yes, yes.

    23 MR. HARMON: I'm finished with that image.

    24 Thank you very much.

    25 Q. Can you tell the Judges, was the football

  13. 1 pitch -- how many men were on the pitch and how much of

    2 the area of the football field was covered by those

    3 men?

    4 A. I didn't quite understand your question. You

    5 mean the Bosniaks?

    6 Q. Let me ask it again. Did the Bosnian Muslim

    7 men cover the entire football pitch, half of the pitch,

    8 a quarter of the pitch?

    9 A. I think that the whole pitch was covered.

    10 Q. Now, did you see Bosnian Serb soldiers in and

    11 around the Muslim men who were detained at the football

    12 pitch?

    13 A. Bosnian Serb soldiers, about 15 to 20 of them

    14 were waiting for us at the very entrance gates armed

    15 with rifles and they gave us orders. They swore at us

    16 and ordered us to enter the pitch. Within the pitch

    17 itself, around us who were sitting there, there were

    18 Serb soldiers with their guns pointed at us. They were

    19 swearing and giving us orders.

    20 Q. Can you estimate the number of soldiers that

    21 you saw around you and the other men at the football

    22 pitch?

    23 A. I can't give you an exact estimate because,

    24 after all, it was a long time ago, but there were 15 to

    25 20 at the very entrance. As for the total, in any

  14. 1 case, there were many in the field, at least 100 or

    2 so. But that may not be the correct figure.

    3 Q. Do you remember how they were dressed?

    4 A. Also they had camouflage uniforms on. On one

    5 soldier, I couldn't notice any rank. He may have had

    6 insignia, but they all had camouflage uniforms.

    7 Q. Now, continue with your -- describing your

    8 experiences at the football field, please.

    9 A. So when my group entered and when we sat

    10 down, after some 15 or 20 minutes behind my back I saw

    11 an APC of olive-green colour arriving, and I saw

    12 several soldiers around the personnel carrier. And

    13 then a big man came out of the APC, some 30 to 40

    14 metres away from me. And when he passed by me, he

    15 turned around and asked whether we recognised him. I

    16 knew him from the media and he introduced himself. He

    17 said that he was the commander of the Serb army, that

    18 he was General Ratko Mladic.

    19 He was a heavy man with a short cut,

    20 well-shaved with some receding hairlines in a

    21 short-sleeved shirt. And when he stood in front of us,

    22 I don't remember whether it was a podium or a couple of

    23 steps, I don't know.

    24 He started insulting and cursing us. "Where

    25 is your state? What are you dying for? Where is your

  15. 1 Alija? Where is Haris Silajdzic? Where are your

    2 leading commanders? Naser Oric and Zulfo Tursunovic.

    3 You are laying down your lives and you've left your

    4 women and children for us to care for them."

    5 And there were other such insulting words and

    6 then the -- at the end he said, "Your authorities in

    7 Tuzla don't want you. So we will put you up. Our

    8 troops will give you water and food, and then we'll see

    9 whether we'll send you to Krajina, to Fikret Abdic or

    10 to the Bijeljina camp to the Batkovici camp in

    11 Bijeljina."

    12 Then orders came for us to get up, to get on

    13 to the trucks. I was towards the end of the field, and

    14 we headed towards the trucks. I also saw the trucks

    15 waiting on the road, three or four trucks, and I think

    16 there was a bus belonging to Boksit Trans from Milici.

    17 They were waiting on the road in front of the exit from

    18 the playing field.

    19 My group of men who -- the group that was

    20 moving with me, when we were going through the gates,

    21 someone said that we should pick up the bags. And Serb

    22 soldiers were guarding the gates and the bags. One of

    23 the group of Serb soldiers said to us, "You won't need

    24 that any longer." Probably they were thinking of what

    25 they were going to do. And so we got on to the trucks

  16. 1 again.

    2 Q. Let me stop you right there for a moment,

    3 Witness P, and ask you two questions.

    4 Do you remember approximately what time of

    5 the day it was when you and others started to board the

    6 trucks?

    7 A. I think it was about 1700 hours or 5.00 in

    8 the afternoon. Somewhere around 5.00, between 5.00 and

    9 6.00 in the afternoon.

    10 Q. Was the statement made by the Bosnian Serb

    11 soldier that you wouldn't need your bags anymore made

    12 at about that same time?

    13 A. Yes. As we were leaving the football pitch

    14 and about to climb on to the trucks, I heard one of the

    15 Serb soldiers saying when one of our men wanted to pick

    16 up his bag. I heard him telling him, "You won't need

    17 that bag anymore."

    18 Q. My last question about this part of your

    19 experience: Did you receive any food and any water

    20 while you were at the football pitch?

    21 A. Never. Far from it. I don't know whether

    22 anyone asked for any water, but none was distributed

    23 anyway.

    24 Q. I interrupted you, Witness P, when you were

    25 recounting your story about getting on to the truck.

  17. 1 Would you please carry on from that point in time.

    2 A. Yes. So we climbed on to the truck. I don't

    3 know how many trucks there were that became full at

    4 that point. My truck started out right away. There

    5 was an order for the trucks to move. So we went in the

    6 direction of Konjevic Polje, that is along the same

    7 road we had used to come there, to get there.

    8 When we reached the junction with Konjevic

    9 Polje, the truck turned right again in the direction of

    10 Bratunac. And then we arrived in Kravica. I knew

    11 Kravica very well because I had passed through Kravica

    12 on a number of occasions before the war. And we

    13 stopped near a supermarket.

    14 My truck -- well in my truck, we happened to

    15 count ourselves, and there were 119 people on my

    16 truck. We were sitting on each other's laps on the

    17 floor, on the bed of the truck with our legs crossed.

    18 I was towards the rear part of the truck which was

    19 covered by canvas. Those were very large canvases, and

    20 at the back of the truck, you could see through because

    21 there was a half a metre opening at that point.

    22 So I told you I was sitting in the back of

    23 the truck. And as the truck was turning right, I saw

    24 that there were two trucks behind us. All of them were

    25 facing the direction of Bratunac.

  18. 1 It was getting dark at that point, and people

    2 were getting nervous. The Serb soldiers who were

    3 guarding the trucks, who were standing guard around the

    4 trucks started mistreating people, hitting them with

    5 rifle butts through the canvas of the trucks. They

    6 would hit people who sat next to the side of the truck

    7 and they went on torturing them.

    8 Then they asked about people from specific

    9 villages from around the area of Srebrenica, the

    10 villages of Glogova, Osmac and other villages. I don't

    11 know why they asked for people from those villages.

    12 If anyone stood up, they would take him out.

    13 We spent the whole night on the trucks and we could

    14 hear screams, moaning, cries for help. Screams again.

    15 People shouting, "Please, don't beat me. Don't kill

    16 me. Don't butcher me." It was so terrible, it was

    17 so -- we couldn't take it anymore. I know that five

    18 people were taken off my truck during that night. I

    19 didn't see them being killed there on the spot, but

    20 they didn't come back to the truck. I don't know their

    21 names. And bursts of gunfire could be heard throughout

    22 the night, coming from around the trucks, and the

    23 screams of people, and this lasted all night long.

    24 Q. Witness P, were there two other trucks

    25 parked --

  19. 1 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Sorry to

    2 interrupt you, Mr. Harmon, but I think there is a

    3 problem with the transcript.

    4 [Technical difficulty]

    5 --- Break taken at 10.08 a.m.

    6 --- On resuming at 10.21 a.m.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We shall

    8 resume, Mr. Harmon. You may continue, please.

    9 MR. HARMON:

    10 Q. Witness P, the technical problem has been

    11 resolved and we'll continue with your testimony.

    12 Now --

    13 A. Thank you.

    14 Q. I have placed on the ELMO, to your right, a

    15 map, and I'd like you to take a look at that map. And

    16 if you could use the pointer, first of all, could you

    17 point to the location where you were detained at the

    18 football field.

    19 A. At the football field, this was here, between

    20 Nova Kasaba and Konjevic Polje [indicates].

    21 Q. And you were taken in a truck to a different

    22 location, where you spent the night, and you've just

    23 been describing your experiences at that location.

    24 Could you point to that location for the Judges,

    25 please.

  20. 1 A. So we went back towards Konjevic Polje, and

    2 then towards Sandici and Kravica [indicates]. And this

    3 was all along the road towards Bratunac. And this is

    4 where we spent the night, on the trucks.

    5 MR. HARMON: Indicating, for the record, the

    6 pointer is on the village of Kravica.

    7 Thank you, Witness P.

    8 Thank you, Mr. Usher. I'm finished with that

    9 exhibit.

    10 Q. Now Witness P, focusing your attention on the

    11 night of the 13th and the early morning hours of the

    12 14th, while you were in the truck, did you receive any

    13 water? Did you receive any food?

    14 A. While we were in the truck, during the

    15 morning we got only one bucket of water. I don't know

    16 who it was who brought the water, but it was hardly a

    17 drop for all of us. You can image. It was only one

    18 jerrycan of water, and we were 119. We didn't get any

    19 food either.

    20 Q. Now, do I understand your testimony correctly

    21 that in addition to your truck that was at that

    22 location in Kravica, there were two other trucks

    23 nearby?

    24 A. I could see behind my truck two additional

    25 trucks. Whether there were any other trucks, I don't

  21. 1 know. I couldn't guarantee. I know that there were

    2 two more trucks, so in total there would have been

    3 three trucks, including mine. I don't know whether

    4 there were any trucks ahead of us. That I couldn't see

    5 because of the canvases.

    6 Q. Can you describe the type of uniform being

    7 worn by the Bosnian Serb soldiers who were in and

    8 around your truck on the night of the 13th and the

    9 early morning hours of the 14th?

    10 A. I said that they all had a camouflage

    11 uniform. To be perfectly honest, I couldn't tell the

    12 difference. I wasn't familiar with that. And then we

    13 were in great fear. We had been beaten and we didn't

    14 dare look outside. People were cursing at us all the

    15 time. They were mistreating us. And I know that there

    16 was one young man who did not cross over. A Serb

    17 soldier put a gun, the barrel of his gun, in his

    18 mouth. And the situation was terrible. It was so

    19 hot. It was stuffy. People didn't have any water, any

    20 food. And somebody tried and asked for water. It was

    21 total chaos.

    22 And at one point we could hear screams. It

    23 was complete madness. We could hear curses, and this

    24 soldier cursed his balija mother and he put a barrel of

    25 his gun into his mouth. I don't know this man. And he

  22. 1 did not reach the free territory. But the soldier told

    2 me, "I will kill you and ten other people if I hear

    3 another word being uttered in the truck."

    4 And then everything went silent, and then

    5 perhaps after 20 minutes or half an hour, people

    6 started screaming again, asking for water, for help,

    7 and I could see people drinking their own urine, trying

    8 to moisten their lips with their own urine. So you can

    9 image how it was, and it was all in terrible heat under

    10 the canvas.

    11 Q. Can you estimate how hot it was?

    12 A. The outside temperature must have been around

    13 28 or 30 degrees, so I don't know how hot it would have

    14 been under a canvas. I don't know what the temperature

    15 would be.

    16 Q. How long did you remain at that location in

    17 Kravica before you were transported to a different

    18 location?

    19 A. At Kravica, on the 14th of July, when it

    20 dawned, mistreatment started again, and we spent the

    21 whole day in the truck again. And sometime in the

    22 afternoon -- nobody had a watch. It had all been taken

    23 away from us on the first day when we surrendered.

    24 Nobody had any watch, therefore. But I know that it

    25 must have been in the afternoon, between 2.00 and 3.00

  23. 1 in the afternoon.

    2 Q. Where did you go?

    3 A. At that point I heard somebody say that we

    4 were going to Batkovic, that the trucks were leaving

    5 for the Batkovic camp. And the trucks that had been

    6 facing Bratunac turned around and started back towards

    7 Konjevic Polje.

    8 Q. And after the trucks reached Konjevic Polje,

    9 in which direction did they travel?

    10 A. So my truck continued right, in the direction

    11 of Zvornik, and I could see, driving right behind us,

    12 maybe some 10 meters away from us, started moving as

    13 well. This truck was escorted by two Serb soldiers

    14 with rifles, who -- one of them was sitting next to the

    15 driver and the other one was also in the cabin of the

    16 truck and he was holding his rifle out through the

    17 window. It was pointing out. And we had been told

    18 earlier on in Kravica that should anyone try to jump

    19 out of the truck, that they would kill ten people. So

    20 I know that my truck was moving in the direction of

    21 Zvornik.

    22 We reached Zvornik. I knew the place very

    23 well. But we passed through and continued after

    24 Zvornik, and this is where women and children started

    25 throwing rocks and stones on the buses.

  24. 1 We continued then towards Karakaj, towards

    2 the aluminum factory in Karakaj. That area was no

    3 longer familiar to me, but we didn't travel for very

    4 long, and at one point the truck turned left. It was

    5 already evening. We didn't travel for very long, maybe

    6 only for about 15 minutes after Karakaj, after the

    7 factory.

    8 The truck therefore turned right, and we

    9 could see the trucks stopping, coming to a halt. I

    10 could see that there was a schoolyard in the area, like

    11 a small playground.

    12 Q. Witness P, let me stop you there for a

    13 minute?

    14 MR. HARMON: And if we could have 1/E/1 again

    15 placed on the ELMO, the small map.

    16 Q. And I'd just like you to indicate on this

    17 small map the direction of travel that you took from

    18 Kravica up to the area past Zvornik. And I think the

    19 map will have to be opened up. And just use the

    20 pointer, please.

    21 A. Kravica [indicates], Konjevic Polje

    22 [indicates], then we go down the river to the right of

    23 Konjevic Polje, we come to Zvornik, Karakaj, and

    24 somewhere there, to the left from Karakaj, we came to

    25 the school. Between the Dam and Karakaj, that is where

  25. 1 the school was.

    2 Q. Thank you very much.

    3 MR. HARMON: And for the record, I think it's

    4 fairly clear from his description the route he took

    5 between Konjevic Polje and the Drina River. He crossed

    6 the Drinjaca River. The rest I think is very clear.

    7 He progressed up along the Drina River, past Zvornik,

    8 to Karakaj, and left to an area near Petkovci.

    9 Q. Thank you very much, Witness P.

    10 MR. HARMON: And I'm finished with the

    11 exhibit, Mr. Usher.

    12 Q. Now, how long did it take you to travel from

    13 Kravica to the school that you've just described?

    14 A. Well, let me see. When we travelled by

    15 public transport, it took about an hour, an hour and a

    16 half to reach Zvornik. So this was a little bit

    17 further, so about an hour and a half.

    18 Q. Will you tell the Judges what happened to you

    19 and to the other men once you arrived at the playground

    20 at the school?

    21 A. When we arrived at the playground of the

    22 school, I heard sporadic shooting. Then there was

    23 noise, cursing, yelling. And suddenly my truck

    24 stopped, and when it stopped I saw two other trucks in

    25 addition to mine, facing forward at the school

  26. 1 playground.

    2 The order was that we jump off the trucks,

    3 one by one, and as we jumped off, the order was to put

    4 our hands up behind our heads and to chant aloud, "Long

    5 live the Serb Republic" and "Srebrenica is Serb," and

    6 maybe a few other words that I haven't remembered. And

    7 as we were jumping out of the trucks and running, Serb

    8 soldiers, in my estimate, some 20 or so, between the

    9 truck and the school, formed two lines. And as we ran

    10 between them, I said that we had to run and chant those

    11 words. And usually everyone got hit, some with a rifle

    12 butt on the back. Some were kicked, some were

    13 slapped. And then we ran towards the school.

    14 Towards the school there were some steps,

    15 five or six steps going down, so that the first level

    16 was lower than the yard itself. There was a double

    17 door, and we ran into the school, into a corridor.

    18 There was a short hall. And again there were soldiers

    19 there who were hitting us and beating us, and they

    20 directed us to the right, up some steps leading

    21 upstairs. There were several steps and then there's a

    22 kind of landing and then the steps turned left to the

    23 second floor. When I reached the second floor, as I

    24 was running I could see that there was an iron railing

    25 in the corridor, and the classrooms were lined one next

  27. 1 to another.

    2 I know that I entered classroom number 3. 1,

    3 2, 3. Whether there was another classroom further on,

    4 I'm not sure, but I think there was some other rooms

    5 further down. When we entered the classroom, I saw

    6 that it was a school, and on the left-hand side of this

    7 classroom there was a blackboard, and on the floor were

    8 some vinyl tiles, those that are glued on. There were

    9 no school desks. All the windows were closed. And it

    10 was stuffy, because we had travelled under the canvas

    11 in the trucks. And as soon as I entered I saw two men

    12 who had been badly beaten up and covered in blood. At

    13 first glance I thought they were dead. I knew one of

    14 them in person. He's Munib Admovic, who was very badly

    15 beaten. I could describe him. He had a cap and a

    16 jacket. I thought he was dead.

    17 So we all sat down in rows. We had to form

    18 those rows from the windows forward. The windows could

    19 not be opened. There were two soldiers standing at the

    20 doorway all the time, and they told us that we musn't

    21 open the windows, that we must sit there, that we would

    22 be given food and water. And so it went on until the

    23 classroom was full.

    24 As soon as it was filled up, other soldiers

    25 started barging in, demanding money. They gave us 15

  28. 1 or 20 minutes, otherwise 20 would be killed, if we

    2 didn't collect a certain sum of money. I don't know

    3 how much they said. They would close the door and go

    4 out, and say, "Not a word." The men were tired as a

    5 result of high temperatures. They didn't have any

    6 water, and they started yelling again, and again they

    7 would come through the door, take people out, and one

    8 could hear bursts of fire and shooting around the

    9 school. No one dared look through the window to see

    10 what was happening outside.

    11 Suddenly a young man tried to look out, and

    12 someone shot him, and he was wounded in that

    13 classroom. They said, "If anyone had money left in

    14 Srebrenica, that they had hidden, let him tell us and

    15 we would take a car and go to Srebrenica, and that man

    16 would be saved and transported to Tuzla." However,

    17 nobody said they had any money, because this was the

    18 third time they were searching us thoroughly and taking

    19 everything away.

    20 Suddenly, a relative, a neighbour of mine,

    21 asked for water. However, he was turned back. A

    22 second time when he went to look for water, he walked

    23 out the door and he never came back. We could hear

    24 fire all the time. Darkness was beginning to fall. I

    25 personally didn't feel well. I was having problems. I

  29. 1 was feeling dizzy. I somehow got close to the window

    2 to get some air, and in my estimate, there were about

    3 200 men in that classroom.

    4 And what happened, I don't really know

    5 myself. Suddenly when I came to a little, I could see

    6 that there were only a few men left in the classroom,

    7 15 to 20, and I could see on those tiles blood and

    8 water, or rather urine, and then I saw Munib Admovic,

    9 who was trying to get up, and I asked him, "What has

    10 happened?" And he couldn't give me an answer.

    11 Shortly after that two came in from the

    12 outside, two soldiers, and gave orders, "The next four

    13 now." And I saw that I had to get up. I and Kadrija

    14 Becirevic, who was with me, and two other men, I don't

    15 know. We went out together. When we reached the

    16 corridor in front of that classroom, next to the iron

    17 railing, there were four to five Serb soldiers in

    18 uniforms as well, and they ordered us to take off

    19 everything, to strip. And I saw a whole pile of

    20 clothing and footwear and documents, ID cards, medical

    21 ID cards, driving licences and that sort of thing. I

    22 took off my shoes, my socks. I only had my vest on,

    23 and they let me keep that on. We had to turn out the

    24 pockets of our trousers, every little piece of paper,

    25 so make sure there was nothing left. What was the

  30. 1 reason for this, I don't know.

    2 And so we had to stand against this iron

    3 railing and the order was to put our hands behind our

    4 backs which is what I did. And I saw next to those

    5 soldiers a ball of string or rather rope. And I saw

    6 him cutting pieces of that rope and tying my hands

    7 twice around. There may be pictures somewhere how they

    8 tied me up. And he was a big man. He was fair. I

    9 don't know him. He just asked me where I was from.

    10 When I told him where I came from, he slapped me, he

    11 cursed my balija mother, and he pushed me opposite

    12 classroom number two.

    13 Classroom number two was open, the door was

    14 open then, and there was no light on. When I fell, I

    15 fell on a friend of mine. He hasn't come either. They

    16 were all tied up in that classroom. I couldn't say

    17 much, I just asked him, "What is happening?" He

    18 couldn't give me an answer. I knew then that the end

    19 was approaching.

    20 Some 15 or 20 minutes later until all these

    21 men had come out and were tied up, I heard the order,

    22 somebody yelling, "Send me ten." And the man at the

    23 door said, "Get out, ten of you."

    24 And I was near the door, and as a group we

    25 ran out with our hands tied down the steps. And when I

  31. 1 started down the steps, I saw in that corridor or I

    2 could feel under my bare feet that there was blood.

    3 And in the hallway at the bottom of the steps, three to

    4 four men lying dead in the hallway of the school.

    5 In front of the school there was a truck. It

    6 was already night-time, I don't know what time it was,

    7 but I think it was after midnight. And the truck was

    8 standing there, the back part facing the entrance to

    9 the school. The back side was down.

    10 And so with our hands tied, barefooted, naked

    11 to the waist had to climb into the truck which was

    12 covered with a canvas. What type of truck it was, I

    13 don't know, whether it was a military or a civilian

    14 vehicle because it was dark.

    15 The truck was filled quickly, they would say,

    16 "Ten of you," then, "Twenty of you." Then this one

    17 down there would call to the one upstairs. And when we

    18 climbed into the truck, it was packed full. The order

    19 was that we should sit down. We couldn't sit down when

    20 it was packed.

    21 Again, they cursed us, our balija mothers.

    22 They said, "Haris Siladzic and Alija would receive you

    23 dead and wounded." They were probably implying some

    24 sort of exchange.

    25 And again, a burst of fire at our feet and

  32. 1 then this relative, Kadrija Becirovic, said to me,

    2 "I've been hit." And I only know that he dropped down

    3 amongst us. I know nothing more about him. And then

    4 the truck started. It was dark.

    5 Q. Let me interrupt you before we go on to the

    6 next part of your testimony.

    7 MR. HARMON: If I could show the witness five

    8 exhibits; 21/1, 21/3, 21/4, 21/5 and 21/7.

    9 Q. I'm going to show you a series of pictures

    10 that you've seen before in my office. Let me ask you

    11 this, Witness P, did you return to the location of that

    12 school with investigators from the Office of the

    13 Prosecutor?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. And you identified that school as being the

    16 location where you were detained; is that correct?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. I'm going to show you some pictures, a series

    19 of pictures starting with 21/1. I'm going to ask you

    20 if you can identify the buildings that are in that

    21 particular exhibit. Can you identify the buildings in

    22 that exhibit?

    23 First of all, do you see a large parking lot

    24 on the left side of the image? Now, your pointer is on

    25 a building. Can you identify that particular

  33. 1 building? If not we'll go to the next exhibit.

    2 MR. HARMON: Let's go to Prosecutor's Exhibit

    3 21/3, please.

    4 A. I really can't find my way, somehow.

    5 Q. All right. We'll go to the next exhibit.

    6 MR. HARMON: Can we go to 21/3, please.

    7 Q. Now, does this clarify the location for you?

    8 A. This is the playground. Yes. The school,

    9 the entrance to the school. And this is the route we

    10 took.

    11 MR. HARMON: Indicating, for the record,

    12 there is a flat area where the witness now has his

    13 pointer which is the playground.

    14 A. That is where the trucks were [indicates].

    15 MR. HARMON: The building in front of a

    16 playground is the school where he was detained.

    17 A. This is the entrance [indicates].

    18 MR. HARMON: Can we now turn to Prosecutor's

    19 Exhibit 21/4.

    20 Q. Do you recognise this picture?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. What is it?

    23 A. The steps that I mentioned going down the

    24 five or six that lead to the entrance to the school.

    25 Q. All right.

  34. 1 A. The double door that I mentioned a moment

    2 ago.

    3 MR. HARMON: The witness pointed to the

    4 double doors to the right side of the building. Thank

    5 you. Could we turn to 21/5, please.

    6 Q. Do you recognise this picture, Witness P?

    7 A. Yes. The steps, as I said, the landing and

    8 then the -- go upstairs and the iron rails. This is

    9 where we were; one, two, three.

    10 Q. Let me turn to the last picture in

    11 Prosecutor's Exhibit 21/7 and ask you if you can

    12 identify this location?

    13 A. Yes. As I said, the vinyl tiles that I

    14 mentioned that are glued on, and to the left, a

    15 blackboard. This is the classroom, the entrance

    16 [indicates], and in the door, the chimney stack for a

    17 stove with a hole in it.

    18 Q. This is the location where you were detained

    19 prior to being taken out and put back on the truck?

    20 A. Yes, yes. I was here somewhere near the

    21 blackboard [indicates]. Later, I moved closer to the

    22 window. You can't see the window in this picture. So

    23 I was here somewhere [indicates].

    24 MR. HARMON: When the witness indicates

    25 "here", he's referring to a place directly under the

  35. 1 blackboard. Thank you very much, Mr. Usher.

    2 Q. Now, we'll continue with your testimony,

    3 Witness P. You said you and other men had boarded a

    4 truck. Can you recall approximately how many men were

    5 in your truck? You said it was packed?

    6 A. After all, it was night-time, nor could

    7 anyone count, so I don't know the figure. But imagine,

    8 100 or so men at least. It was a big truck I think.

    9 Q. Would you continue, please, with your

    10 testimony, describing the events once the truck started

    11 on its next leg of the journey.

    12 A. We had climbed onto the truck after the

    13 shooting, and the truck's engine started. As soon as

    14 it started moving from the school, I saw immediately

    15 that it was a bumpy road, and we were swaying left and

    16 right and hitting each other because our hands were

    17 tied. We were standing up.

    18 The truck didn't travel for long, maybe 10 or

    19 15 minutes. I don't know what time it was. I know it

    20 was after midnight. And then suddenly the truck

    21 stopped somewhere. At first glance, I could just see

    22 that there was a little light, that there was some sort

    23 of light reaching us.

    24 And so as soon as we stopped there, we heard

    25 heavy bursts of fire, noise, yells. I just heard

  36. 1 someone say, "Come down ten. Come on five." And we

    2 had to run off the truck. How I got off, I don't know

    3 myself. Whether there was any assistance, some way to

    4 get off, but we were jumping off and we were all

    5 terrified.

    6 And when we got there and it was lighted, I

    7 saw a very big field of men lying dead who had

    8 previously been killed. They were all facing -- their

    9 faces were on the ground and they were all tied up. So

    10 I and this group of mine were told to form a new row,

    11 somebody was giving us the command, the orders.

    12 And so we went to the area where we were shot

    13 at with our hands tied and barefooted. I saw that the

    14 path was rocky. I was barefooted, I didn't really know

    15 where we were. I didn't know the location.

    16 So we formed a new row. We went to the end.

    17 And as we were passing at great speed, of course, I saw

    18 a group to my right of Serb soldiers in uniform, they

    19 were. And on their heads, they had something black,

    20 whether it was socks or something so you couldn't see

    21 their faces. They were pointing their guns at us and I

    22 just heard one say, "Fall to the ground." That was the

    23 order.

    24 After that, I really don't know what

    25 happened. Behind my backs, I just heard strong bursts

  37. 1 of fire. They were shooting at our backs, at our

    2 heads. From a distance of seven to ten metres, there

    3 was this group of soldiers shooting.

    4 I fell over bodies of those who had been

    5 executed before me. As I fell, I had some kind of a

    6 premonition that I might be saved. I tried to tuck my

    7 head between the legs of those who had been killed

    8 before me. I don't know, myself, how I managed to do

    9 that. I could hear fragments and shrapnel and stones

    10 hitting me at my arms and legs, but I realised I hadn't

    11 been wounded yet.

    12 But then suddenly, something hot seemed to

    13 have been poured on my face. And as my hands were tied

    14 behind my back, I couldn't do anything. I kept digging

    15 my head down among the dead. How long this lasted, I

    16 can't remember. The shooting, the bursts of fire, I

    17 was probably unconscious again.

    18 And suddenly, I heard some voices, individual

    19 shots being fired and they were calling each other by

    20 name. One said, "Simo and Dragan, come here." And

    21 open brief bursts of fire into their heads. There must

    22 have been some men alive and indeed there were. And so

    23 they opened fire at them.

    24 He came close to me. I heard them searching

    25 the rows. And then, again, they cursed balija mothers

  38. 1 and one said, "You should see what he looks like. He's

    2 like a skeleton." He was probably implying the chest

    3 of this man. And he said, "If I had seen him in broad

    4 daylight I would have been afraid of him."

    5 And I heard these Serb soldiers exchanging

    6 these words amongst themselves. I was lying down among

    7 the dead with my hands tied behind my back. I heard

    8 the steps. He kicked me here with his boot, with his

    9 leg and he said, "He's dead."

    10 After that, what happened with me, these were

    11 moments after which I suddenly came to. I really

    12 didn't know what had happened. I felt I was

    13 suffocating. I was lying with my face down, with my

    14 hands behind my back. And as those men were falling,

    15 someone had fallen on my neck. And I didn't have any

    16 air to breathe. I tried to pull myself out, pull my

    17 head out from among the bodies. I could hear moans and

    18 movements, so someone was still alive. And somehow --

    19 as I said, my hands were tied. I couldn't pull free

    20 with my fingers.

    21 I heard a voice, a man saying the following

    22 words, he was whispering, "My friends, let's move

    23 down. They'll kill us. I am alive too." I plucked up

    24 some courage, and I said to him, "If you can, come on,

    25 let's try and escape."

  39. 1 And then he somehow managed to get some five

    2 or six metres behind me in another row. He tried to

    3 reach me. He said, "You have double ropes around your

    4 hands and I can't untie you." I was whispering to him,

    5 "Can I untie you?"

    6 So he crawled up to me and I managed to pull

    7 his hands free. And he said, "Let's run." You could

    8 hear a machine approaching. We could see the lights of

    9 the machine and the sound of this vehicle moving and he

    10 said, "They'll kill us all here."

    11 And I was still tied up, he helped me get up

    12 and barefooted, covered in blood, stripped to the

    13 waist. I still didn't know where he had been wounded.

    14 We are treading over those dead bodies.

    15 And down there we saw a kind of thicket, some

    16 woods, and we thought we could reach it though the

    17 grass was high and they would be able to see us

    18 moving. But we had no choice. And only did we manage

    19 the reach the wood when we caught sight of a big

    20 concrete ditch that was leading somewhere. We didn't

    21 know the area.

    22 At the bottom of the ditch we saw a bit of

    23 water. This was water with a muddy sediment. We tried

    24 to reach that water to freshen up and for him to try

    25 and untie me.

  40. 1 And as we were going towards this ditch to

    2 our right, or rather to our left, a vehicle was

    3 approaching. We didn't know what kind of vehicle. I

    4 just concluded that it was a tractor with a trailer.

    5 We heard it bumping over the macadam and as we reached

    6 the ditch, I said to this person, take two stones. And

    7 he found two rocks to try and cut the rope.

    8 So I leaned my hands against the rock and

    9 with those two rocks, he cut through the ropes. When

    10 he did that, my hands were freed. I saw that I had

    11 been scratched on the head. I was bloody. This other

    12 person was wounded more seriously than me. I had this

    13 vest on me. I took it off and bandaged his wound.

    14 We found a bit of water so we washed up a

    15 little. And we decided we would stay there until dawn

    16 came. This must have been just before dawn, the

    17 moments before night and day.

    18 And behind us, on the field where we had been

    19 shot at, we could hear strong fire again, noise and the

    20 noise made by the machine. We heard the thuds as they

    21 were unloading. We couldn't see from the ditch what

    22 was actually happening.

    23 As soon as daylight came, we decided to leave

    24 the area, though we didn't know where we were. We

    25 passed through a small wood. We found some mushrooms,

  41. 1 some leaves, something to eat.

    2 And we saw a guard house, a small hut above

    3 us. And in that hut, a machine was parked. It was a

    4 bulldozer, a large bulldozer, that pushes the material

    5 in front of it with a shovel and there was a man with a

    6 rifle near that hut. Whether he had a uniform, I don't

    7 know, but he was probably a guard working for that

    8 company left over from before.

    9 So we didn't dare go ahead in that direction,

    10 so we retraced our steps, went back to the same ditch

    11 where we had been in the morning. We continued to hear

    12 explosions, the work of the machine, but we didn't know

    13 what was happening, so we were back in the ditch, and

    14 to the left of that ditch we saw a Bosniak village that

    15 had been burned down. We saw the walls still

    16 remaining, the chimneys that had been toppled and we

    17 decided we would go to that village to try and find

    18 some fruit and water to freshen up. We were barefooted

    19 and wounded.

    20 So after we had crossed the ditch, we came up

    21 on a macadam road which was passing along the Dam. So

    22 we crossed that macadam road. I was the first one to

    23 cross it, and then I motioned to him to cross it as

    24 well, because there were no vehicles. And this is

    25 where we refreshed ourselves a little bit. We found

  42. 1 some water and we found some fruit.

    2 We must have been some 150 or 200 meters from

    3 the area where they were loading machines. So we stood

    4 there watching. We didn't dare move. We were simply

    5 lying in some brambles. We didn't know what to do.

    6 The loader arrived that morning, the one with

    7 a bucket, and it was loading dead bodies onto a

    8 tractor. I know that it was a tractor. It was a large

    9 type of tractor with very big wheels on the back and

    10 smaller wheels on the front, and it had a trailer as

    11 well. So we could see it scoop up between 10 and 15

    12 bodies with its bucket, and then it threw the bodies

    13 onto the tractor.

    14 The tractor that was transporting the bodies

    15 would leave in a direction, but we couldn't follow it

    16 for very long, because at one point it turned off. All

    17 we could observe was that it was coming back very

    18 soon. The journey would probably last about 20

    19 minutes, and after 20 minutes it would come back. So

    20 meanwhile the loader with the bucket, with the shovel,

    21 would be waiting for the truck to come back.

    22 We could hear shots during that time. We

    23 didn't know whether they were still killing people,

    24 finishing them off, but shots could be heard, at any

    25 rate. And we could hear them yell at each other, shout

  43. 1 at each other. And this is where we stayed throughout

    2 the day. It was the 15th of July.

    3 It was getting dark and we knew that we could

    4 no longer stay there, so we -- from where we were

    5 standing, we could see some water. We didn't know

    6 where we were. But once we were in this village, we

    7 could see a very large lake. At first I thought it was

    8 the Drina River, but later on I found out that it was

    9 an artificial lake that belonged to the aluminum

    10 factory, would discharge waters.

    11 So there was a ditch leading to the Dam where

    12 we had been. I'm not sure that they threw bodies into

    13 the lake, but I think that they threw them somewhere in

    14 the vicinity of the Dam. We couldn't see the tractor.

    15 It would turn off behind the Dam and disappear from

    16 sight. But it would come back very soon.

    17 So we spent the whole day there, waiting, and

    18 at one point we saw the TV relay at Majevica, which was

    19 in the direction of Tuzla. So I told this young man

    20 that we should leave, that we should go in that

    21 direction, and we actually started out in the direction

    22 of the industrial area of Karakaj. The area was

    23 inhabited, so we didn't dare come out. We didn't dare

    24 cross the area. We were just trying to follow the

    25 relay, the TV transmitter.

  44. 1 Q. Let me interrupt you there for just a moment

    2 and let me ask you just a couple of questions to

    3 clarify your testimony. When you looked back from your

    4 position away from the killing field, can you estimate

    5 how many bodies were laying on that field?

    6 A. Well, I didn't make any estimates at the

    7 time, but judging by the features of the terrain and

    8 the number of people in the school, it must have been

    9 between 1.500 and 2.000 people.

    10 Q. Now, you also said that you observed some

    11 heavy construction-type equipment. One was a bulldozer

    12 with a scoop.

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Are you familiar with construction equipment?

    15 A. Yes, very much so. I knew these types of

    16 construction machines. I had worked with them. There

    17 was a bulldozer with "Caterpillar" which had a kind of

    18 blade at the front. It was not moving, that machine,

    19 the bulldozer, whereas a loader that was standing next

    20 to the bodies was. And there was a third machine, a

    21 tractor which had a trailer and which transported the

    22 bodies.

    23 Q. Can you identify more specifically the

    24 bulldozer with the scoop, the type of vehicle that was?

    25 A. Well, there are several types: number 8, 9,

  45. 1 7. I believe it was the type number 7, with

    2 Caterpillar, with tracks. As regards the loader, this

    3 type of machine, I believe it was the ULT machine. I

    4 used to work with the same type of machines. And they

    5 were produced -- they were manufactured in Kragujevac

    6 before the war. Now they're importing them. They are

    7 of various types: 160 and 200. I believe that that one

    8 was ULT 160. It was orange in colour and it had a

    9 scoop in front of it.

    10 Q. Now, you also were taken to the location of

    11 the killing field with investigators from the Office of

    12 the Prosecutor and confirmed that being the location

    13 where you and others had been taken for the execution;

    14 is that correct?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Let me show you four exhibits and ask you if

    17 you can confirm that the images depict the location --

    18 A. I'm sorry. There's one thing that I forgot

    19 to mention. When we got out, when we reached the

    20 village, from my vantage point I could see the Dam and

    21 I could see two very high pillars with floodlights

    22 which were on during the night. They were throwing

    23 light onto the area, onto the plateau where we had been

    24 shot at.

    25 Q. Thank you for that addition. I'm going to

  46. 1 show you four exhibits, and what I'd like you to do is

    2 merely confirm whether this is the location where the

    3 executions took place.

    4 MR. HARMON: If I could start first of all,

    5 Mr. Usher, with a panorama, which is Prosecutor's

    6 Exhibit 22/3, and if that could be shown to the witness

    7 first and then placed on the ELMO.

    8 A. This is easier for me, this one. This is the

    9 road.

    10 Q. You need to place that on the ELMO so -- now,

    11 using the pointer, could you just -- first of all, is

    12 this the location where the killings took place,

    13 Witness P?

    14 A. Yes. Yes, it is. So this is the road

    15 [indicates] and this is where the ditch was, the Dam

    16 [indicates]. This is a kind of protection wall

    17 [indicates]. And this is the location.

    18 Q. Would you point to the actual location where

    19 the killings took place in this particular exhibit,

    20 which is 22/3.

    21 A. [Indicates]

    22 MR. HARMON: Indicating, for the record, an

    23 area that is below the number 100 and to the right of

    24 the area 50, and further to the right, beyond the

    25 actual rectangle.

  47. 1 A. I know this pile of rocks in the shape of a

    2 pyramid. This is where I was that night. And later

    3 on, when we came with the investigators, I saw it

    4 again. This is the pile of rocks [indicates]. And

    5 this is the area where we were [indicates]. And it was

    6 from there that we went down into the ditch.

    7 MR. HARMON: There is a pile of rocks

    8 indicated -- or shown on the diagram --

    9 A. Yes.

    10 MR. HARMON: -- to the right of the large red

    11 rectangle --

    12 Q. Mr. Witness --

    13 A. And this is the wall [indicates].

    14 Q. I need to describe where you're pointing, so

    15 if you would just remain silent while I have an

    16 opportunity to describe the area. Then if you have

    17 additional comments, I'll permit you to make them.

    18 MR. HARMON: The witness pointed to a pile of

    19 rocks which is located to the right of the red

    20 rectangle, and it's evident in the upper part of the

    21 flat surface area.

    22 Q. Do you have anything else to inform the

    23 Judges about this particular exhibit, Witness P?

    24 A. I recognise this wall. I remember it very

    25 well. It is a kind of support wall made of rocks. It

  48. 1 is designed to support the Dam, the embankment.

    2 MR. HARMON: Indicating the pile of rocks

    3 that's in the lower right-hand corner of that

    4 Prosecutor's Exhibit.

    5 Now we'll turn to the next Exhibit,

    6 Mr. Usher, which is 22/4.

    7 Q. And I'm going to ask you, very quickly, is

    8 this the cement culvert that you described in your

    9 testimony?

    10 A. Yes. This is the concrete ditch. This is

    11 where we climbed down and this is where we took

    12 shelter, hid ourselves.

    13 Q. What is the building in the upper right-hand

    14 corner of Prosecutor's Exhibit 22/4?

    15 A. This is the guardhouse which we saw, and

    16 another structure next to it. The bulldozer was here,

    17 and these are the pillars where the floodlights were.

    18 MR. HARMON: Indicating the bulldozer was

    19 between the house and the floodlights, which are

    20 indicated with a circle on the upper right-hand corner

    21 of the exhibit.

    22 Q. Now we will turn to the next exhibit very

    23 quickly, 22/6. Is this also a picture of the cement

    24 culvert through which you and your companion found

    25 shelter?

  49. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. All right. Now if we could turn to

    3 Prosecutor's Exhibit 22/7. Do you recognise what's

    4 depicted in Prosecutor's Exhibit 22/7?

    5 A. Yes, I do. This is the road, the path

    6 leading to the Dam, and this is where we had been shot

    7 at [indicates].

    8 MR. HARMON: Indicating the red oval on the

    9 right-hand side of the image.

    10 Q. Now, you said at some point in time, Witness

    11 P, that you left the killing field and you took shelter

    12 in an area near some buildings that were nearby.

    13 A. Yes. This would have been here, in this area

    14 [indicates]. There was a village there.

    15 MR. HARMON: Indicating to the left-hand side

    16 of the road, the perpendicular road that comes from the

    17 top of the image down toward the Dam, to the left of

    18 that.

    19 Q. Now, let me --

    20 MR. HARMON: I'm finished with those exhibits

    21 now, Mr. Usher.

    22 Q. And Witness P, thank you very much for

    23 identifying them.

    24 Lastly, my last question --

    25 A. Thank you too.

  50. 1 Q. -- did you and did your companion ultimately

    2 arrive on the Bosnian-held territory,

    3 Bosnian-Muslim-held territory, on the 18th of July?

    4 A. Yes, in the afternoon of the 18th of July.

    5 Q. Witness P, I've concluded my examination.

    6 Thank you very much.

    7 A. Thank you.

    8 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I've concluded.

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

    10 very much, Mr. Harmon. I think that it would be a good

    11 idea to have a short break, perhaps a 10-minute break,

    12 and later there would be a longer break, around half

    13 past 12.00. At this point we will have a only a

    14 10-minute break. I should like to ask the Defence to

    15 try and ask very direct and precise questions for the

    16 cross-examination. A 10-minute break.

    17 --- Break taken at 11.23 a.m.

    18 --- On resuming at 11.34 a.m.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness P,

    20 you're now going to answer questions that will be put

    21 to you by Mr. Petrusic who is representing the Defence

    22 here.

    23 Mr. Petrusic, you have the floor.

    24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning

    25 Your Honours, good morning counsel.

  51. 1 Cross-examined by Mr.Petrusic:

    2 Q. Good morning Witness P.

    3 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] In accordance

    4 with your suggestion, Mr. President, I will try and ask

    5 my questions in a specific manner.

    6 Q. Witness P, on the 11th of July, when you went

    7 to Susnjari, did you know that the members of the VRS

    8 had confiscated personnel carriers from the United

    9 Nations?

    10 A. Yes, I did. I did know.

    11 Q. I believe the witness has answered. We do

    12 not need any further clarification in respect of this.

    13 So when you started out from Susnjari towards

    14 Konjevic Polje towards the territory of Tuzla, you said

    15 that at one point the Serb soldiers mixed with you.

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. The Serb soldiers threw hand grenades which,

    18 as far as I understand, contained some poisonous

    19 gases.

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Could you tell us, briefly, what kind of

    22 consequences did those poisonous gases have?

    23 A. Well, we became very thirsty and my eyes were

    24 smarting and there were tears in our eyes.

    25 Q. The fact that the Serb soldiers mixed with

  52. 1 you and that those grenades were thrown, can we

    2 therefore conclude that the Serb soldiers were at the

    3 same territory the same night?

    4 A. No, when they threw grenades it was on the

    5 first night it was only on the following day that the

    6 Serb soldiers mixed with the Bosnian soldiers and

    7 civilians who remained in the forest.

    8 Q. It was on the 12th of July then?

    9 A. No, it was on the 13th. The ambush was on

    10 the 12th of July in the evening and --

    11 Q. I apologise. Were there any opposing views

    12 amongst the representatives of the Muslim population as

    13 regards the situation in which you had found

    14 yourselves, whether you should surrender or continue

    15 with the break-through?

    16 A. Could you please repeat your question? I

    17 don't quite understand what you mean by "opposing


    19 Q. Well, were there any different views as to

    20 what should be done?

    21 A. You mean amongst the Bosnian population?

    22 Q. Yes.

    23 A. Well, yes, people were trying to reach the

    24 right decision. Some people wanted to surrender, some

    25 were in favour of continuing.

  53. 1 Q. In view of that, were there any conflicts?

    2 A. Well, most probably there were conflicts

    3 somewhere.

    4 Q. At Kasaba at the football field, General

    5 Mladic spoke to you?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Did General Mladic mention at that point that

    8 the units with dogs were at that location?

    9 A. Yes, he did. He said that there were some

    10 special units there with dogs and dog handlers, and

    11 that every inch of the forest would be covered by them

    12 and nobody would be able to cross the asphalt road.

    13 Q. After that, you left for Kravica by trucks?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. The Serb soldiers called out people from

    16 Glogova, Kravica?

    17 A. Not from Kravica.

    18 Q. No, from Kamenica, I'm sorry, Osmac?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. And Zedansko?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. And those people would actually come out?

    23 A. Well, yes, if they were from those villages.

    24 But people didn't dare speak up. But those who did

    25 were taken out.

  54. 1 Q. Do you know what was the reason for that, why

    2 did they call people from those specific villages?

    3 A. I don't know. Maybe they were their

    4 neighbours, they were perhaps looking for their

    5 neighbours, people from their area. I don't know.

    6 Q. Did they mention Kravica, did they look for

    7 people from Kravica?

    8 A. No, not from Kravica. It wouldn't have been

    9 possible. I don't understand what you mean.

    10 Q. While they were calling people out, while

    11 they were looking for specific people, people from

    12 specific villages, did they also mention Kravica? And

    13 my question to you is: Did they ask who had

    14 participated in the take-over in Kravica?

    15 A. I didn't hear that.

    16 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

    17 Mr. President, I should like to show the witness, very

    18 briefly again, the statement that he gave to the

    19 investigators of the Tribunal on the 14th, the 15th,

    20 the 16th of August of 1995.

    21 THE REGISTRAR [Interpretation] Exhibit

    22 D-18.

    23 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

    24 Q. On page five of the statement given on the

    25 14th of August, 1995, second passage, the second

  55. 1 passage from the bottom, there is a portion of

    2 highlighted text. The last sentence of the passage

    3 reads as follows, "The Serbs asked who had participated

    4 in the take over of Kravica when it fell under BH

    5 control."

    6 A. I don't remember. I don't know how this was

    7 translated.

    8 Q. You signed this statement. Did you sign this

    9 statement?

    10 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, may I interrupt?

    11 D-18 is a redacted statement so the signature of this

    12 witness has been removed. We're prepared to stipulate

    13 that the witness did, in fact, sign this statement.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

    15 very much for your remark, Mr. Harmon. I, myself, have

    16 realised that the witness is having some difficulties

    17 as to his signature.

    18 Mr. Petrusic, could you ask your question in

    19 a different way? Could you ask him whether he signed

    20 the statement, not whether he can see the signature on

    21 the statement.

    22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

    23 Q. Witness P, your signature has been redacted

    24 from the statement so we cannot see it. So my question

    25 to you is whether this is, indeed, your statement, the

  56. 1 one that you gave to the Tribunal's investigator on the

    2 14th, the 15th and the 16th of August, 1995?

    3 A. I believe it is. I cannot tell you the exact

    4 date the statement was given but I think this is my

    5 statement.

    6 Q. When you arrived in the school, the school

    7 was a two-storey building, was it not?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Was only the first floor filled with people?

    10 A. I believe that it was the first floor and the

    11 ground floor. This is what I could tell judging from

    12 the voices of the people, I believe it was full.

    13 Q. How many trucks arrived in your group?

    14 A. I said that there had been three trucks. Two

    15 that were at the football field plus my truck. I don't

    16 know if there were any trucks later on or before.

    17 Q. Let us go back to Kravica and then I will

    18 finish with my cross-examination. Was there any reason

    19 why the Bosnian Serb soldiers would be interested for

    20 that place, in particular?

    21 A. I don't know.

    22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

    23 Mr. President, I have no other questions to ask of this

    24 witness.

    25 Q. Witness P, thank you very much.

  57. 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

    2 Mr. Petrusic, thank you very much.

    3 Mr. Harmon, do you have any additional

    4 questions?

    5 MR. HARMON: I do not, Mr. President. Thank

    6 you.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    8 Mr. Harmon.

    9 Judge Riad.

    10 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. President. I

    11 have a few questions.

    12 Good morning, Witness P.

    13 A. Good morning.

    14 JUDGE RIAD: Let me just try to clarify some

    15 points you mentioned from the beginning. You spoke of

    16 the column of almost ten kilometres when you were

    17 fleeing away and before you surrendered. And you said

    18 that one-third had weapons; is that right? One-third

    19 of you in the column had weapons.

    20 Did you use these weapons, these weapons?

    21 Had they been used against the Serbs while you were

    22 fleeing? Was there exchange of fire, some kind of

    23 fighting or were you just running away?

    24 A. There were no combats until the ambush. The

    25 people who had weapons were at the front of the column

  58. 1 and I was somewhere in the middle of the column. And I

    2 know that there had been no fighting before the ambush,

    3 but then after I had been captured, I don't know what

    4 happened.

    5 JUDGE RIAD: And when you were captured, you

    6 were captured because they announced, as you said, they

    7 asked you to surrender and that you will be exchanged;

    8 is that right, that you will be safe?

    9 But in spite of that, in spite of their

    10 reassurance, some committed suicide. What promoted

    11 this reaction if they knew that they would be

    12 exchanged? Did the Serbs give them this assurance?

    13 A. Well, I think that they simply didn't

    14 believe. They didn't dare to believe in their

    15 guarantees, that is, that they would be exchanged,

    16 because they were killing people. They didn't pay any

    17 attention to the age, regardless of whether it was an

    18 old man or a child.

    19 JUDGE RIAD: So there was killing before that

    20 and you could not trust them. That was the feeling you

    21 had, that already there was no reason -- there was

    22 their precedents of killing?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 JUDGE RIAD: And when was that, with your

    25 group?

  59. 1 A. Yes.

    2 JUDGE RIAD: But your group had started.

    3 There was no killing before that. What gave them this

    4 conviction that they would not -- that they be killed,

    5 beforehand?

    6 A. I said that there had been an ambush, and a

    7 lot of dead bodies were scattered around the forest and

    8 people simply couldn't believe that. They were afraid

    9 of ending up in their hands. Thousands of people must

    10 have remained in the forest, so they couldn't trust

    11 them anymore when it comes to the surrender.

    12 JUDGE RIAD: It was the ambush. Before that,

    13 was there any media announcing or threatening, in the

    14 media anything which gave them this conviction?

    15 A. Yes. Throughout the war people were getting

    16 killed, and there was an order, a command, that we

    17 should go through the woods. Somebody had issued an

    18 order to that effect. People didn't dare. I don't

    19 know. They just didn't trust them. They went to the

    20 woods. A lot of people got killed in the woods and a

    21 lot of people killed themselves in the woods, because

    22 they were afraid of ending up in their hands.

    23 JUDGE RIAD: You were living in Srebrenica

    24 before the 11th of July?

    25 A. Yes.

  60. 1 JUDGE RIAD: And could you listen, could you

    2 hear Serb radio and Serb television?

    3 A. No. No. We didn't have electricity at all.

    4 JUDGE RIAD: Now, at a certain stage, and I

    5 follow the question the Defence counsel asked you,

    6 certain people were called because they belonged to

    7 certain places. You had people coming from Osmac, they

    8 were asked to come out and so on. And as you said,

    9 after that you heard screams and gunfire. At a later

    10 stage, the order came by numbers. They would say,

    11 "Bring four people now," "Bring ten people now." Also

    12 at this second stage were these ten people or four

    13 people, were they more or less coming from a certain

    14 place or they would be without discrimination?

    15 A. You haven't understood me, Your Honour. I

    16 said that they were taken out individually, one by

    17 one. During the night, while I was in that truck, five

    18 people were taken off my truck. I don't know where the

    19 Serbs had come from. The trucks had canvases and they

    20 stood guard around the trucks all the time. They were

    21 working in shifts. So there would always be between 10

    22 or 15 Serb soldiers near the trucks, and they were

    23 taking people out. And during that night, five people

    24 were taken off my truck.

    25 JUDGE RIAD: All right. I then, I repeat my

  61. 1 question more precisely. When you were in classroom 1

    2 and classroom 2, you would hear an order, somebody

    3 saying, "Send me ten." Would he say: Send me ten from

    4 this village or that village? Or he would say: Send

    5 me ten just from the whole group, without

    6 discrimination?

    7 A. No. I was in classroom number 3. And after

    8 my hands had been tied up, I was transferred to

    9 classroom number 2, that is, the next-door classroom.

    10 And they were not saying anything to that effect,

    11 anything involving a village. I could only hear a

    12 voice coming from outside the school, or from the

    13 entrance I would hear words, "Send me ten of them" or

    14 "Send me 20 of them." This is while I was already on

    15 the truck.

    16 JUDGE RIAD: Ten of them, without saying ten

    17 of which village, or anyplace; just ten?

    18 A. Yes. Yes.

    19 JUDGE RIAD: Now, when you were asked how

    20 many people had been lying in the killing field, you

    21 said there would be between 1.500 and 2.000. Was there

    22 enough light for you at your escape to see the extent

    23 of the lying bodies, or was it too dark? I mean, on

    24 what did you base your estimation?

    25 A. I could make an estimate on the basis of the

  62. 1 number of people who had been in the school. There

    2 were three classrooms on that floor, so there must have

    3 been up to 600 people there. So I believe the same

    4 number of people would have been on the ground floor.

    5 And I believe that there were other classrooms as

    6 well.

    7 As to the area itself, I was able to observe

    8 it on the next morning, when we came out of the ditch,

    9 and also when we reached the village, because we were

    10 about 150 or 200 meters away from the spot. So I could

    11 see the whole area, and the whole area, the whole

    12 location was filled with dead bodies.

    13 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

    14 A. Thank you too, Your Honour.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    16 Judge Riad.

    17 Judge Wald.

    18 JUDGE WALD: Witness P, you told us in the

    19 beginning of your testimony that the reason that the

    20 men decided to go or were given orders to go in the

    21 woods toward Tuzla rather than to Potocari was because

    22 they didn't trust the Serbs not to kill them. They

    23 thought they wouldn't get any protection from the UN.

    24 When your group surrendered to the Serbs, what changed

    25 their mind? Why did they feel they would be able to

  63. 1 survive if they surrendered to the Serbs, when earlier

    2 they thought they wouldn't survive if they went to

    3 Potocari?

    4 A. It was very simple. The groups had been cut

    5 off from the rest of the column, and they had a large

    6 number of wounded. And the order was that the wounded

    7 should be brought down and that we should all come down

    8 to the road. All the while there was a white personnel

    9 carrier travelling along the asphalt road, coming from

    10 the direction of Konjevic Polje -- this is what I

    11 forgot to mention -- moving towards Kravica. And it

    12 passed our group and they threw out two bottles of

    13 water. And I think that half of the people surrendered

    14 and came out onto the asphalt road because they

    15 believed it was a UN personnel carrier. And I think

    16 that it actually carried Serb soldiers, because they

    17 didn't say anything to us; they simply threw out two

    18 bottles of water when they passed by us. And again

    19 they went back in the direction of Konjevic Polje.

    20 JUDGE WALD: You said you had a large group

    21 of wounded that you carried down at the time of

    22 surrender. Had most of those wounded been wounded in

    23 crossfire of an ambush, or had they been wounded just

    24 by the shelling from the Serbs? I mean, had they been

    25 wounded in an actual crossfire between the armed people

  64. 1 in the column and the Serbs, or just as they were

    2 trying to walk along and just got shelled?

    3 A. Part of the group was exposed to a shelling

    4 and part of the group -- people from the group were

    5 wounded in the ambush that took place on that night.

    6 JUDGE WALD: During the ambush there was

    7 crossfire, right, between the Muslims who were armed in

    8 the column and the Serbian soldiers. Okay.

    9 Now, you mentioned about this incident with

    10 the poisonous gas that made the throat get thirsty and

    11 the eyes sting. Are you familiar with what's known as

    12 tear gas? I mean, sometimes police use it to break up

    13 crowds in demonstrations. It brings tears to your

    14 eyes, but it doesn't have -- so far as we know, it

    15 doesn't immediately blind anybody or anything like

    16 that. Was this something like tear gas, or was it

    17 anything you were familiar with before?

    18 A. I couldn't tell you, Your Honour. I don't

    19 know. I just heard someone saying at one point that

    20 poisonous gases had been thrown at us. I wasn't very

    21 familiar with it. And I tried protect myself, to

    22 protect my face, and I was looking for a shelter.

    23 JUDGE WALD: Did this happen only once? Was

    24 this just one incident of poisonous gas or did it

    25 happen other times, or did you hear other people say

  65. 1 that it happened to them, even if you weren't there?

    2 A. I heard it from a number of people who were

    3 there, who were ambushed. I don't know what happened

    4 elsewhere or later on. I'm referring to the ambush

    5 that took place on the night between the 12th and the

    6 13th of July. The ambush was at the location called

    7 Kamenicko, called Brdo.

    8 JUDGE WALD: Okay. My last question is: You

    9 said that from the burnt-out Bosniak village you were

    10 able to see this artificial lake near the killing

    11 fields, the one where the aluminum company dumped its

    12 refuse. Could you estimate the time it would take to

    13 drive from the killing fields to that lake? What would

    14 you guess or think it would take? How long to make the

    15 drive from the killing fields to that lake?

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness P,

    17 just a second. I'm sorry to interrupt.

    18 Mr. Visnjic, you were about to say something,

    19 probably in relation to "Tihomir Blaskic." I myself

    20 didn't get that as a translation or interpretation.

    21 Were you going to point to that?

    22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Yes,

    23 Mr. President, you're right.

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Well, I

    25 didn't hear it in the French interpretation, but on the

  66. 1 transcript I can see that there is a kind of poisonous

    2 gas that is called Tihomir Blaskic, apparently.

    3 Judge Wald, maybe you will have to repeat

    4 your question so that we can hear the answer.

    5 Thank you, Mr. Visnjic.

    6 JUDGE WALD: I'm sorry. I don't know what --

    7 on my transcript, I don't see what question --

    8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm afraid

    9 it has already disappeared from the screen. I don't

    10 know whether it has something to do with the method

    11 used by the court reporters. Maybe we should pay

    12 attention to this aspect, we should be mindful of this

    13 particular feature of the transcript. It had something

    14 to do with a question that you asked of the witness

    15 regarding tear gas which the police sometimes uses and

    16 the poisonous gas that the witness was trying to

    17 describe.

    18 Mr. Harmon, you might help us, perhaps.

    19 MR. HARMON: I saw the name "Tihomir Blaskic"

    20 and thought it was the wrong case, but it was at a

    21 point in the transcript at 20.02.12 and it was in

    22 response -- this witness gave an answer, and what I

    23 wrote down was: "I just heard at one point that

    24 poisonous gases Tihomir Blaskic ..." and it went on.

    25 So that's the point that Mr. Visnjic stood up.

  67. 1 JUDGE WALD: Shall we ask the witness -- let

    2 me ask the question to the witness again, and the

    3 question was that whether the witness had any idea

    4 whether this poisonous gas was like the tear gas.

    5 A. I think it was something like that, because

    6 the rumour spread among the people that something had

    7 been thrown.

    8 JUDGE WALD: All right. We'll take that as

    9 your answer to the question. Now, I think we're still

    10 in the middle of the last -- well, okay.

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

    12 Mr. Visnjic.

    13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

    14 I think it would be sufficient to hear the transcript.

    15 The witness didn't mention Tihomir Blaskic. He used a

    16 word in Serbo-Croatian that sounded like this.

    17 JUDGE WALD: Okay. That's helpful to know

    18 that. But we have his answer later on to the straight

    19 question anyway.

    20 So just to answer my last question which I

    21 had asked you about, how long you would have estimated

    22 it took to drive from the killing field to the Dam, the

    23 artificial lake?

    24 A. We could only see from the village where our

    25 men were. We could see that lake and the field where

  68. 1 we were executed. We couldn't get close. It is behind

    2 the hill, around a bend. You have an access road to

    3 the Dam so we couldn't really see the access to that

    4 lake. In my estimate, it would take 15 or 20 minutes

    5 to get there and back.

    6 JUDGE WALD: Okay.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    8 Judge Wald. I think the question of transcript will be

    9 resolved as usual. The court reporters have heard the

    10 answer and will make the necessary corrections so there

    11 is no point in wasting too much time. But it has been

    12 registered in the transcript that there was a problem.

    13 Witness P, I also have some questions for

    14 you. The 13th of July, the call for surrender by Serb

    15 soldiers. In that call, they mentioned Geneva

    16 Conventions [Realtime transcript read in error "general

    17 Eva"] could you remind us in what context they

    18 mentioned the Geneva Conventions?

    19 A. I think that they were guaranteeing the

    20 safety of our lives and an exchange. That was at least

    21 my opinion because I had a wounded relative, and when

    22 they mentioned the Geneva Conventions that nobody could

    23 be hurt, that we would all be exchanged. So my opinion

    24 was that they would guarantee our safety, our transfer

    25 to free territory either by exchange with their

  69. 1 vehicles or with the help of UNPROFOR.

    2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we have

    3 another type of convention. The Geneva Conventions, I

    4 think all these things have to be reviewed. We are

    5 talking about the Geneva Conventions and not the

    6 "general Eva conventions".

    7 Another question, did they expressly use the

    8 words Geneva Conventions?

    9 A. Yes, I personally heard them over the loud

    10 speakers saying that we would all be exchanged in

    11 accordance with the Geneva Conventions.

    12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] My second

    13 question. Nova Kasaba, the football pitch, the whole

    14 pitch was covered. My question, were the people

    15 sitting or standing or both?

    16 A. When I arrived, everybody was sitting down.

    17 My group and those who came after me, we all sat down

    18 on the grass field of the pitch.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] General

    20 Mladic arrived. Did he come alone or in the company of

    21 others?

    22 A. I just saw the APC coming and I saw certain

    23 soldiers who were standing right next to the APC. At

    24 that moment, I didn't see whether anyone else came out

    25 with him, I don't remember. Of course there were the

  70. 1 soldiers next to him, but I do know that he, himself,

    2 and alone spoke to the people there.

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] When you

    4 left the football pitch, you were boarded on trucks.

    5 Those trucks, were they already there when you arrived

    6 or did they come after you?

    7 A. I didn't see them having come there before us

    8 because trucks were passing by all the time. They were

    9 driving women and children from Potocari so trucks and

    10 buses were passing by. Some were going towards

    11 Konjevic Polje, and the others were passing towards

    12 Kasaba. So I don't know whether those trucks had come

    13 there from Kasaba and were waiting for us or did they

    14 come from some other place specially. I just know that

    15 they were empty when we came off the field and started

    16 boarding them.

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] While you

    18 were at the football pitch, did you see buses passing

    19 in the direction of Bratunac-Konjevic Polje with the

    20 women and other people?

    21 A. Yes, yes, we did see trucks and buses passing

    22 from Konjevic Polje towards Kasaba. And in the

    23 opposite direction, there were empty buses going

    24 towards Konjevic Polje probably to Potocari again to

    25 fetch some more women and children.

  71. 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness P,

    2 I have no further questions. You have answered a large

    3 number of questions put to you.

    4 Is there something that you would like to say

    5 and that you didn't have an opportunity to say?

    6 A. First of all, I should like to thank the

    7 International Community and this Tribunal that the

    8 truth, at least about Srebrenica, should be proven and

    9 that some kind of justice is served although that is

    10 difficult to do and that everybody should be punished

    11 for this preconceived genocide in Srebrenica.

    12 Let us take into account merely the fact that

    13 each family in Srebrenica has lost two or more family

    14 members. I lost 20 family members. My brother, their

    15 wives, aunts, cousins and so on.

    16 So I wish once again to thank the

    17 International Community and, if it can, to resolve this

    18 problem of genocide and for all the perpetrators to be

    19 punished.

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

    21 very much, Witness P, for coming.

    22 You have many years before you to live. I

    23 think you have a very good reason to live, and that is

    24 through your actions and words, you should contribute

    25 to a world avoiding a catastrophe of this kind, and I

  72. 1 say that regardless of who is responsible.

    2 Whoever committed these acts regardless of

    3 the ethnic group they may belong to is horrific for all

    4 human beings and the human race.

    5 Witness, don't move for the moment. I think

    6 that we have some exhibits to deal with. We have

    7 Defence exhibit D-18.

    8 Mr. Harmon, I think you don't have any

    9 exhibits to tender now.

    10 MR. HARMON: I don't have any exhibits.

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

    12 Mr. Petrusic, then.

    13 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

    14 Mr. President, the Defence would like to tender into

    15 evidence Exhibit D-18, but it seems to me that the --

    16 some redactions need to be made in the Serbian version

    17 which the witness has, but the English version has

    18 already been redacted to remove all names that might

    19 reveal the identity of the witness or other protected

    20 persons.

    21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    22 Mr. Petrusic.

    23 Mr. Harmon.

    24 MR. HARMON: I only have a couple comments

    25 about this exhibit, but I need to go into private

  73. 1 session to do so. It will only take a couple of

    2 minutes.

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

    4 Mr. Dubuisson, shall we go into private session now,

    5 please.

    6 Please be seated, Mr. Petrusic.

    7 [Private Session]

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  74. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  75. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 [Open session]

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see we

    6 are in open session now.

    7 I think, Mr. Harmon, that it would be better

    8 to have the break, which we had planned before, to have

    9 it now, give the opportunity to Witness P to leave, and

    10 when the Chamber comes back, the other witness will be

    11 in the courtroom.

    12 Will he have the same protective measures as

    13 this one, Mr. Harmon?

    14 MR. HARMON: He will.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

    16 Witness P, good-bye. We wish you a safe journey home.

    17 We're going to have a half hour break now and we will

    18 resume work by hearing the next witness.

    19 A. Thank you too, Your Honours.

    20 [The witness withdrew]

    21 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

    22 --- On resuming at 12.56 p.m.

    23 [The witness entered court]

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

    25 afternoon, Witness. Can you hear me? Can you hear

  76. 1 me?

    2 THE WITNESS: Yes.

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You're

    4 going to read the solemn declaration that the usher is

    5 going to give to you, please.

    6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

    7 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

    8 and nothing but the truth.


    10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be

    12 seated, Witness. The registrar is going to show you a

    13 piece of paper with your name written on it. You're

    14 going to look and tell us, yes or no, if that is your

    15 name.

    16 THE WITNESS: Yes.

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So that is

    18 indeed your name. Are you comfortable? Are you at

    19 ease?

    20 THE WITNESS: Yes.

    21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You are now

    22 going to answer questions which the Prosecutor, in this

    23 case, Mr. McCloskey, is going to put to you.

    24 Mr. McCloskey, you have the floor.

    25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

  77. 1 Examined by Mr. McCloskey:

    2 Q. Witness, you know I'll be asking you some

    3 questions, and please just do your best to answer

    4 them. And if you don't know an answer, that's fine, or

    5 if you can give us estimates or rough estimates about

    6 certain things, just do your best. Do you understand

    7 that?

    8 A. I'll do that.

    9 Q. Okay. And how old are you?

    10 A. I'm 28.

    11 Q. And are you a Muslim by faith?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. And I want to take you back to July 11th,

    14 1995. Where were you living then?

    15 A. Srebrenica, the village of Suceska.

    16 Q. And who were you living with?

    17 A. I was living with my parents and my wife.

    18 Q. And what did you decide to do on July 11th?

    19 A. I decided to go to Jaglic and the family to

    20 Potocari.

    21 Q. Why did you decide to go to Jaglic?

    22 A. I didn't dare to go to Potocari.

    23 Q. Why not?

    24 A. Well, I was afraid they would kill me.

    25 Q. The Serb soldiers that took over the town of

  78. 1 Srebrenica, you mean?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. And about what time on July 11th did you get

    4 to Jaglic?

    5 A. It must have been dark already.

    6 Q. Can you give us a rough estimate of how many

    7 people were assembled there at that time?

    8 A. Ten to fifteen thousand. A large crowd.

    9 Q. And what did the crowd decide to do?

    10 A. They decided to head for Tuzla.

    11 Q. How did you get the word that that was the

    12 decision?

    13 A. I heard the other men talking.

    14 Q. And when did you decide -- or when did you

    15 actually head out with the group and go towards Tuzla?

    16 A. On the 12th, in the afternoon.

    17 Q. So you were near the -- farther back of the

    18 column, I guess.

    19 A. [No interpretation]

    20 Q. So did you spend one night in the woods, and

    21 then, when you got near the Nova Kasaba area, get

    22 captured, on the 13th, in the morning?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Can you tell us about your capture, how that

    25 happened? Can you just try to explain a little bit who

  79. 1 you were with and who captured you and where it

    2 happened, that kind of thing?

    3 A. Yes. I was with ten other men. We were

    4 going to cross the asphalt road. However, Serb

    5 soldiers captured us. We didn't manage to cross.

    6 Q. And did anybody in the group of your ten have

    7 any weapons?

    8 A. Yes. One had a pistol only.

    9 Q. And what happened to the pistol?

    10 A. They seized it, the Serb soldiers.

    11 Q. Did you get in any firefight or any exchange

    12 of fire with this group of Serb soldiers, or did they

    13 just surround you and capture you?

    14 A. They just surrounded us and captured us.

    15 Q. And what happened after that? What did the

    16 Serb soldiers do with you, your belongings, and where

    17 did they take you?

    18 A. They took away our bags with food in them,

    19 then they ordered us to put our hands behind our heads

    20 and to proceed towards Nova Kasaba.

    21 Q. And about what time did this happen on the

    22 13th?

    23 A. About seven o'clock in the morning.

    24 Q. And where did they take you?

    25 A. To the elementary school in Kasaba. I think

  80. 1 that was where the troops were, a kind of barracks, and

    2 we were imprisoned there.

    3 Q. Serb troops were in the barracks?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Can you tell how many Serbs were in the

    6 barracks at that point when you were put there?

    7 A. A group of some 10 to 20 people.

    8 Q. And where were you put?

    9 A. In a small room, like a kind of prison.

    10 Q. Did you see any Dutch soldiers around these

    11 barracks anywhere?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. And had the VRS soldiers provided you with

    14 any water or food yet at this time, when you were first

    15 put into the barracks?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. When did they give you any water? When did

    18 they first give you water?

    19 A. Maybe after some 20 minutes.

    20 Q. Were there wounded among you when you came

    21 out of the woods and were captured?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. And what happened when you were in the

    24 barracks, if anything?

    25 A. I heard the voice of a woman crying out near

  81. 1 Jadar. The soldiers went down there and they brought

    2 over another man.

    3 Q. The Serb soldiers went outside the barracks

    4 somewhere where you heard these noises coming from, and

    5 brought a man back?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. And this was a Muslim man?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. And eventually were you taken somewhere else

    10 that day outside of those barracks?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. About what time were you taken outside of the

    13 barracks, and where were you taken?

    14 A. At 2.00, they ordered us to put our hands

    15 behind our backs, to go in line one by one towards the

    16 stadium.

    17 Q. And were you and your group then marched down

    18 the road to the stadium?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. When you say the stadium, what kind of a

    21 place was this?

    22 A. It was a football pitch.

    23 Q. And were you still in Nova Kasaba?

    24 A. No, a little bit further from Nova Kasaba.

    25 Q. Just right outside Nova Kasaba?

  82. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. And do you know roughly how many soldiers

    3 that were guarding your group as you were walking

    4 towards the football pitch?

    5 A. Two to three soldiers.

    6 Q. And what were they wearing?

    7 A. Camouflage uniform.

    8 Q. Was that the same kind of uniform the

    9 soldiers that captured you were wearing?

    10 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think I heard him say

    11 "yes", but I didn't hear a translation.

    12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the microphone be

    13 placed closer to the witness, please.

    14 MR. McCLOSKEY:

    15 Q. Were the soldiers that captured you different

    16 from the soldiers that were guarding you around the

    17 barracks?

    18 A. They had the same uniforms, but they weren't

    19 the same ones.

    20 Q. How about the soldiers that took you to the

    21 football pitch? Were those the same soldiers that were

    22 guarding you at the barracks or were those different

    23 soldiers?

    24 A. Could you repeat the question, please?

    25 Q. The soldiers that took you to the football

  83. 1 pitch, I think you said around three that walked you

    2 down to the football pitch, had those soldiers been

    3 guarding you at the barracks or were they new guys?

    4 A. They were different soldiers.

    5 Q. Do you know roughly how many soldiers were

    6 guarding you at the barracks?

    7 A. A group was in the barracks. There was some

    8 outside as well. Ten to twenty soldiers in all.

    9 Q. And when you got to the football pitch, can

    10 you describe the scene there; how many people, who were

    11 they, what was happening?

    12 A. There were about 1.500 to 2.000 men who were

    13 sitting on the field in rows surrounded by Serb

    14 soldiers.

    15 Q. So 1.500 to 2.000 Muslim men; is that right?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Can you give me an estimate of how many Serb

    18 soldiers you saw around them?

    19 A. There were quite a number of them. I really

    20 don't know the number. There was an APC behind our

    21 backs. The soldiers were all around surrounding the

    22 playing field. There was no more than a metre between

    23 each one of them and the next one.

    24 Q. Did you see any other equipment besides this

    25 APC?

  84. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. What else did you see?

    3 A. I saw two more APCs on the asphalt road, and

    4 a UN APC from which no one came out. It was just

    5 standing there.

    6 Q. And were all these soldiers that were around

    7 the Muslim men, were they armed?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. And this football pitch, how much of the

    10 football pitch was taken up by these Muslim men?

    11 A. More than half.

    12 Q. And did you see any Muslim men continue to

    13 arrive while you were there at the football pitch?

    14 A. Yes, I did see it.

    15 Q. And in what direction were they arriving

    16 from?

    17 A. They were coming from Konjevic Polje along

    18 the asphalt road, and they brought some from the

    19 woods. There was some who were wounded too. They

    20 bandaged the wounded and put them to the other side.

    21 Q. Who bandaged the wounded Muslims?

    22 A. The Serb soldiers.

    23 Q. About how many wounded Muslims did you see

    24 get bandaged by the Serb soldiers?

    25 A. Ten or so.

  85. 1 Q. And the arrival of the Muslim men to the

    2 soccer field, were they arriving by foot or by vehicle

    3 of some sort?

    4 A. On foot.

    5 Q. And can you tell us what you remember

    6 happening while you were there at that football pitch?

    7 A. The soldiers told us that General Mladic

    8 would come. And a short while later he came escorted

    9 by two cars and he held a speech. He told us that we

    10 would all be exchanged and that they were not

    11 criminals. He said that we should have all surrendered

    12 because not a bird could pass through their lines as

    13 there were hundreds of their lines. And he said that

    14 we would go to Bratunac for lunch. And that he would

    15 organise groups to collect the wounded in the woods,

    16 and for the dead to be buried where their families want

    17 them to be buried.

    18 Then he ordered the soldiers to make a list

    19 of the names of all those captured. At that moment, a

    20 prisoner got up and the Serb soldiers approached. They

    21 kicked him and hit him with their rifle butts. And

    22 then one soldier took out his pistol and killed him.

    23 And he was thrown into the other. Mladic was present.

    24 He didn't respond in any way.

    25 A camera was shooting the prisoners and

  86. 1 Mladic as he was delivering his speech. When the lists

    2 were made, Mladic left towards Konjevic Polje.

    3 Q. Did you put your name on this list?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. And did you see others put their name on this

    6 list?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Could you tell if you were being filmed when

    9 you had to put your name on the list?

    10 A. No.

    11 Q. When you eventually left that football pitch,

    12 about what time was it?

    13 A. It was close to dark, maybe an hour before

    14 night fell.

    15 Q. And how were you transported away from this

    16 football pitch?

    17 A. Buses came. They stopped. They ordered us

    18 to get into the buses. When the buses were full, we

    19 started towards Konjevic Polje. We passed through

    20 Konjevic Polje towards Sandici. To the left, I saw a

    21 group of men who were sitting down in a circle

    22 surrounded by Serb soldiers.

    23 Q. Was this near Sandici that you saw these men

    24 sitting in a field surrounded by Serb soldiers?

    25 A. Yes.

  87. 1 Q. What else did you see on your journey?

    2 A. I saw near Kravica on the right a kind of

    3 hangar and dead people at the entrance.

    4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we show the witness

    5 Exhibit 8/4. And can we first let him take a look at

    6 that far right-hand side of the picture and then if we

    7 could put that on the ELMO.

    8 Q. And Witness, if you could pick up the pointer

    9 and point out on the picture itself that sits on that

    10 funny machine next to you where you saw the bodies.

    11 A. Here [indicates].

    12 MR. McCLOSKEY: And the record should

    13 indicate that the witness has pointed to the centre of

    14 the large opening in the centre of the photograph.

    15 Q. As you were driving by, were you able to tell

    16 how many bodies were there?

    17 A. Four or five bodies.

    18 Q. Could you look all the way in the warehouse,

    19 or were these just the ones that were near the opening?

    20 A. Those were bodies that were close to the

    21 opening.

    22 Q. Did you notice any damage to the building

    23 that the bodies were in as you drove by it?

    24 A. Yes. The traces of bullets could be seen on

    25 the building.

  88. 1 Q. Did you hear anything going on around Kravica

    2 while you were driving by it?

    3 A. I heard shooting behind the hangar.

    4 Q. Thank you. That's fine. And shortly after

    5 driving by Kravica, did you arrive to Bratunac?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. And did you stop in Bratunac?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. And did you spend the night on the bus in

    10 Bratunac?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Do you remember what was written on the side

    13 of the bus that you were in?

    14 A. "Boksit Trans-Milici" was written on the bus.

    15 Q. What kind of bus was it? Big bus, small

    16 bus?

    17 A. A big, double bus.

    18 Q. And how full of Muslim men was it?

    19 A. It was very crowded.

    20 Q. On your trip from Nova Kasaba to Bratunac,

    21 were there any Serb soldiers on that bus with you?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. How many?

    24 A. Two.

    25 Q. Were they armed?

  89. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. And wearing camouflage uniforms?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. And when you got to Bratunac and stopped,

    5 could you tell where you were?

    6 A. I knew that that is -- they said that we were

    7 going to Bratunac. I saw the town, so I assumed it was

    8 Bratunac.

    9 Q. Do you know where you stopped, what kind of

    10 buildings were around you where you stopped and spent

    11 the night on that bus?

    12 A. I think there was a school nearby.

    13 Q. And were there other vehicles that also

    14 stopped in Bratunac around the same location you were?

    15 A. There were smaller cars.

    16 Q. Any buses or trucks full of Muslim men at the

    17 location where you were besides your bus?

    18 A. There were more buses behind me.

    19 Q. Could you tell how many might have been there

    20 that night?

    21 A. Four or five buses.

    22 Q. And could you tell if they were filled with

    23 Muslim men?

    24 A. I couldn't see, but I think that Muslims were

    25 inside.

  90. 1 Q. And what happened that night that you stayed

    2 in this bus in Bratunac?

    3 A. We heard shooting throughout the night, and

    4 they would take people out of the bus who never came

    5 back to the bus.

    6 Q. How many people, if you know, were taken out

    7 of your bus that didn't come back?

    8 A. Four or five.

    9 Q. And that was Serb soldiers that took them out

    10 of the bus?

    11 A. I think they were, because we didn't dare

    12 look. Our heads were bowed down.

    13 Q. Did a Serb soldier stay on your bus all night

    14 guarding you?

    15 A. No. They were outside.

    16 Q. How many Serb soldiers were you able to see

    17 outside your bus and around that area that night?

    18 A. I don't know exactly, but a lot of them were

    19 passing by the buses.

    20 Q. More than 20, less than 20?

    21 A. Fifteen to twenty.

    22 Q. Okay. And the next morning, what happened?

    23 That would be the morning of July 14th.

    24 A. Yes. The driver got out. He had started the

    25 engine and he had turned on the heating and then got

  91. 1 out. We remained in the bus. And then it was in the

    2 afternoon and people were fainting because of the

    3 heat. Later on a soldier arrived and told us that we

    4 were going to be exchanged.

    5 Q. How long were you in that bus with the heat

    6 going?

    7 A. Two to three hours.

    8 Q. Did they give you any water while the heat

    9 was going on that bus on that day? Sorry, you have to

    10 answer a little bit out loud. I know this is not easy,

    11 but the microphone didn't pick up your answer. Were

    12 you given water while the heat was going on the bus?

    13 A. No.

    14 Q. So finally when this soldier showed up and

    15 says you're going to be exchanged, shortly after that

    16 did the bus -- did your bus start to leave?

    17 A. It started to leave, perhaps not right away,

    18 but maybe half an hour later.

    19 Q. And did your bus drive northward up towards

    20 and through Zvornik and up to the area of Pilica?

    21 A. Yes. First it was driving along a macadam

    22 road which at one point became asphalt road. We were

    23 not allowed to watch, but I noticed that it was going

    24 towards Zvornik.

    25 Q. And where, when you got to the Pilica area,

  92. 1 where did the bus stop, and what happened?

    2 A. The bus stopped above the school, and the

    3 soldiers ordered us out and told us to run up towards

    4 the school, and they put us in a hall which was

    5 completely crowded.

    6 Q. Okay. How many soldiers were on your bus

    7 trip from Bratunac to Pilica school?

    8 A. You mean on the buses, in the buses, how many

    9 soldiers there were?

    10 Q. Yes. How many soldiers were in your bus when

    11 it drove from Bratunac to the Pilica school?

    12 A. Two soldiers.

    13 Q. Were those soldiers you recognised from your

    14 time in Bratunac, or were these two new people?

    15 A. I think they were different, two new people.

    16 Q. And they were armed?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. And when you arrived at the school, how many

    19 soldiers did you see outside the school and around the

    20 bus that you got off of?

    21 A. There were 15 to 20 soldiers.

    22 Q. And how were they dressed?

    23 A. In camouflage uniform. They were armed.

    24 Q. And this place they took you, can you

    25 describe what kind of a hall it was?

  93. 1 A. It was a kind of gymnasium that belonged to

    2 the school. It had baskets for basketball.

    3 Q. And when you first arrived in this gymnasium,

    4 how many Muslim men were in the gymnasium before you?

    5 A. Less than half. Later on the hall filled up.

    6 Q. Could you tell how many buses were -- or

    7 trucks were travelling along with you on your trip to

    8 Pilica?

    9 A. I think four to five buses.

    10 Q. And could you tell if there were any Muslim

    11 men in any other part of the school besides the

    12 gymnasium where you were?

    13 A. Yes, I noticed some people on the steps.

    14 There was a very wide stairway leading to the upper

    15 floor. Some were standing and some were sitting, and

    16 we passed by on our way to the gymnasium.

    17 Q. Okay. After you were put in the gymnasium

    18 that first day at the Pilica school and it filled up

    19 with people, did you volunteer to go get water?

    20 A. Yes, I volunteered together with four other

    21 men. We took some buckets and we went down the wide

    22 stairway which was on the other side past the football

    23 field. And further down, there was a tower and a water

    24 point with two fountains.

    25 When we got there, it was already dark and we

  94. 1 started filling up the buckets with water. At that

    2 point, we heard a bus approaching the school building.

    3 Later on, we heard some noise and shooting

    4 and the guard ordered us back to the gymnasium as

    5 quickly as possible so we went back.

    6 Q. What kind of noise did you hear before you

    7 heard the shooting?

    8 A. I could hear people crying for help.

    9 Q. And could you tell what area around the

    10 school these cries of help were coming from?

    11 A. Could you please repeat your question?

    12 Q. Could you tell what direction or what area

    13 these cries of help were coming from?

    14 A. Yes, from behind the school.

    15 Q. And you'd heard a vehicle arrive before

    16 hearing the cries of help; is that right?

    17 A. Yes. I think I could hear a bus.

    18 Q. Was the sounds of that bus and the cries of

    19 help from the people coming from the same general area?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could show the witness

    22 Exhibit 23/1. Could we use one that doesn't have

    23 markings on it. I've got my copy of 23/1. I hope that

    24 doesn't confuse things too much but, I'm sorry, I

    25 didn't realise that had all those markings.

  95. 1 And should we give it another number for the

    2 record?

    3 THE REGISTRAR [Interpretation] Yes, it will

    4 be Exhibit 24/5.1.

    5 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Well we'll take

    6 care of that after the witness, I think, if that's all

    7 right.

    8 Q. Now, Witness, if you take a look at this

    9 photograph which has been placed on the ELMO. And

    10 first of all, could you point with your pointer the

    11 area where the bus pulled up that you were in the day

    12 you arrived at the school?

    13 A. The bus stopped here [indicates].

    14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Indicating for the record the

    15 asphalt road or the -- well, the road right in front of

    16 the school.

    17 Q. And where did you enter the school? Can you

    18 point us out the entrance that you went in with that

    19 pointer?

    20 A. Yes. This way [indicates] and then here

    21 [indicates].

    22 MR. McCLOSKEY: And for the record, the

    23 witness went around to the left of the school building

    24 and then into a side entrance near the building that is

    25 perpendicular to what looks like the main building in

  96. 1 the school.

    2 Q. And is that building that you've got your

    3 pointer on the gym?

    4 A. Here [indicates].

    5 Q. Yes. Is that the gym, that's where you went

    6 to?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. And can you now show us the route you took to

    9 get the -- to go down and get the water where you heard

    10 these screams and the shooting?

    11 A. I got out here [indicates]. There are some

    12 steps here. We went across the football pitch, past

    13 the tower and reached this area here [indicates].

    14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. And for the record,

    15 the witness went out the back of what appears to be the

    16 back of the gym by what looks like a big concrete

    17 playground, past the playground, in front of the tower

    18 and down into some trees.

    19 Q. Was it down by the water that you heard the

    20 bus arrive and the people call for help?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. And shortly after that is when you heard

    23 shooting?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. How long did that shooting go on for?

  97. 1 A. Not for very long. Five to ten minutes

    2 because we were taken back immediately to the

    3 gymnasium.

    4 Q. Could you still hear the shooting when you

    5 were in the gymnasium?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. Do you know about what time of day it was

    8 when this shooting started?

    9 A. It was already dark.

    10 Q. And that was the night of the 14th?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Can you describe what occurred in the

    13 gymnasium that night, the night of the 14th, when you

    14 and all the men were crowded inside that gymnasium?

    15 A. Yes. It was stuffy. Two or three men died

    16 there from lack of air.

    17 Q. What happened to their bodies?

    18 A. I think that they were taken out by our

    19 people.

    20 Q. Was anyone given any medical treatment in

    21 that gym that night?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. Was the water that was brought back by you

    24 and your group enough to provide everyone with enough

    25 water?

  98. 1 A. No.

    2 Q. Did these soldiers provide anyone in that gym

    3 with any food that night?

    4 A. Yes. I went out. I went to the toilet, and

    5 I know that when I got in, I fainted. And when I

    6 recovered, when I came to, I was in the corridor. A

    7 soldier gave me some pate and a piece of bread and took

    8 me back to the gym.

    9 Q. Did you see anybody besides yourself get any

    10 food that night?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. And did you spend all the next day inside the

    13 gym?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. That was July 15th. What happened in the

    16 gym, if anything, on that day, on July 15th, with all

    17 the people crowded in there?

    18 A. They were taking men out. I'm sorry, I made

    19 a mistake. Could I start again?

    20 Q. Sure.

    21 A. On that day, Serb soldiers arrived and they

    22 took jewellery, watches, money from those who had

    23 them. Then they came later on again. They were asking

    24 for German marks, and they told us if we don't manage

    25 to collect the money, that we would all be killed.

  99. 1 They came two more times, but nobody had that money.

    2 MR. McCLOSKEY: We're done with the exhibit.

    3 Thank you very much. I'm sorry.

    4 THE INTERPRETER: The witness mentioned the

    5 amount of money, but we couldn't hear him.

    6 MR. McCLOSKEY:

    7 Q. Witness, I'm informed that you need to speak

    8 up a little bit more, and could you tell us the amount

    9 of money again?

    10 A. 10.000 German marks.

    11 Q. Did anything come of any of that?

    12 A. No. No, because nobody had that money.

    13 Whatever people had had already been taken away by the

    14 Serb soldiers.

    15 Q. Okay. And then what happened after they

    16 tried to take all the people's money and their

    17 valuables?

    18 A. After that, the next night, the men were

    19 being taken out from the gym. Some would come back,

    20 some didn't. The next day, I noticed that there were

    21 fewer of us in the gym.

    22 Q. So that night, you're talking about the night

    23 of July 15th and the morning of July 16th, you noticed

    24 there weren't as many people in the gym; is that right?

    25 A. Yes.

  100. 1 Q. When men were taken out of the gym, did you

    2 hear any sounds?

    3 A. No.

    4 Q. And were there any soldiers inside the gym

    5 guarding you during your stay there or did they stay

    6 outside the gym itself?

    7 A. Yes, they were at the entrance to the gym.

    8 Q. Could you tell how many Serb soldiers were

    9 outside the entrance of the gym and were around the

    10 school area during your stay at the school?

    11 A. There were two to three soldiers at the

    12 entrance. There was a group of them in the corridor,

    13 perhaps five to ten people. There may have been 20 of

    14 them in total over there.

    15 Q. Now, you spent two nights at this school, the

    16 14th and the 15th. Do you know if the Serb soldiers

    17 changed shifts, or was it the same group the whole time

    18 you were there?

    19 A. I think that they changed shifts, but I'm not

    20 sure.

    21 Q. Okay. On the morning of July 16th, what

    22 happened?

    23 A. Serb soldiers came, and one of them said that

    24 some people thought that they had killed a number of

    25 young men, and he said, "Let all the young men leave

  101. 1 the gym, one by one, because they will be exchanged."

    2 I was next to the entrance, so I stood up and

    3 got out of the gym. And as we were leaving the school

    4 building, they told us to line up against a wall, put

    5 our hands against our backs, and this is where our

    6 hands were tied up.

    7 Three buses were parked there, and we climbed

    8 onto the second bus. There were three of us sitting in

    9 one row of seats. And once the buses were filled up,

    10 they left.

    11 They started along the same road we had taken

    12 when we came to the school. At one point we turned

    13 right and reached a meadow. On that meadow I saw a

    14 large number of dead bodies. The buses stopped on a

    15 road near the meadow, and I could see a hangar there

    16 and people lying about, killed.

    17 Q. Why don't you tell us, continue to tell us

    18 this story of what happened.

    19 A. When the buses stopped, soldiers started

    20 taking out groups of people who were tied up. They

    21 were taking them in one column. They had to put their

    22 hands behind their backs. Those were groups of ten

    23 people which were taken to the area where the dead

    24 bodies were, on the meadow, and this is where they were

    25 killed. And then they would shoot at each one of them

  102. 1 individually, and this is what I could observe from the

    2 bus.

    3 After the first bus had emptied, it was our

    4 turn. They took out two groups of people from my bus,

    5 and I was in the third group of people. As we were

    6 getting out of the bus, they asked if anyone had any

    7 relatives abroad so that they could send the money for

    8 the exchange, and some people spoke up and they were

    9 then singled out. And I was taken to the meadow where

    10 the bodies were.

    11 They ordered us to stop, and we stopped.

    12 There was a group of Serb soldiers there. They were in

    13 a line and they were shooting at us from their

    14 automatic rifles and from machine-guns. When they

    15 opened fire, I threw myself on the ground. My hands

    16 were still tied behind my back and I fell on my

    17 stomach, face down. And one man fell on my head. I

    18 think that he was killed on the spot. And I could feel

    19 the hot blood pouring over me.

    20 The shooting continued and then they ordered

    21 soldiers to shoot people individually. And I could

    22 hear a voice saying that they shouldn't shoot people in

    23 their heads, so that their brains wouldn't spill out,

    24 but rather to shoot them in their backs.

    25 They shot me at my back. My hands were tied

  103. 1 on my back, but a bullet passed under my left armpit,

    2 through my shirt, and it only scratched me. And I

    3 remained there, lying. I could hear them ask if

    4 anybody was wounded. They said that they would be

    5 bandaged. And some people spoke up and then they were

    6 finished off.

    7 I could hear one man crying for help. He was

    8 begging them to kill him. And they simply said that

    9 "Let him suffer. We'll kill him later." They kept

    10 bringing in groups of people on that day, also in the

    11 afternoon, maybe for about four hours.

    12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we show the witness

    13 Exhibit 24/5. Excuse me. It's now 24/5/1. My

    14 mistake.

    15 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] At the end of

    16 the transcript I will correct what was said a moment

    17 ago. The previous exhibit was 23/1/1.

    18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could you move that over a

    19 little bit so that black dot -- there we go.

    20 Q. Now, last night in my office you had a chance

    21 to look at this photograph, and could you first take

    22 the pointer and point to where your bus stopped.

    23 A. Here [indicates].

    24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. And for the record,

    25 he's pointing at the road that has vehicles on it that

  104. 1 goes sort of in a -- well, it would be a north/south

    2 position, perpendicular to the road that goes across

    3 left and right.

    4 Q. Can you show us the direction that Muslim men

    5 were marched to the killing fields?

    6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. And for the record,

    7 the witness has just shown us that they walked across a

    8 big open field, over to the area of a black spot.

    9 Q. Now, did you have a chance to write in that

    10 black spot, or I helped you write in that black spot

    11 last night?

    12 A. I knew where it was. This is where the

    13 execution took place. And there is more over there.

    14 Q. And is that black spot roughly where you were

    15 when they tried to execute you?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. And how many soldiers did you see taking part

    18 in the execution?

    19 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we're done with that

    20 exhibit. Thank you.

    21 A. Ten soldiers.

    22 Q. And how many were taking part in the

    23 escorting of the victims over to the killing fields?

    24 A. Three or four soldiers.

    25 Q. And you said you saw a machine-gun and

  105. 1 automatic weapons. You were a soldier for some time,

    2 were you not?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. What kind of machine-gun was that that you

    5 saw in the hands of the executioner?

    6 A. M-84. M-84.

    7 Q. And while you were lying there, did you hear

    8 a vehicle arrive and unload something?

    9 A. I did. That was in the evening. We heard a

    10 vehicle. It came close to me. It unloaded something

    11 and went away again. Later, during the night, I saw

    12 that they were the bodies of killed men that were

    13 brought there.

    14 Q. All right. Now, I'm going to -- we're going

    15 to go a little quicker now. I'll ask you a few

    16 questions which you can answer yes or no, and if you

    17 feel like you need to explain them, that's okay too.

    18 But did you spend the night on the killing field there?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. And the next day you spent some time hiding

    21 under a bridge?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. And were you able to hear anything coming

    24 from the direction of the killing fields while you were

    25 hiding under that bridge?

  106. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. What?

    3 A. I heard the sounds of machines. I couldn't

    4 see it, but I could hear it. I could hear vehicles

    5 moving, nonstop, towards that place, and going back

    6 again. This went on all day.

    7 Q. And a short time later did you come across an

    8 older man, whose name you know? But don't say who it

    9 is.

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. And did you and he travel together for a few

    12 days and then meet another man?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. And did that second man eventually get lost

    15 from you and the older man?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. And then did you and the older man finally

    18 decide to turn yourselves in?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. And why did you decide to do that?

    21 A. We couldn't walk any further. We were

    22 exhausted. We hadn't had anything to eat since our

    23 capture.

    24 Q. And after you turned yourself in, did you go

    25 to a cafe where a Serb man looked after you?

  107. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Can you describe that?

    3 A. Yes. When they captured us or rather when we

    4 surrendered, a small bus, a mini bus, there were two

    5 military policemen in it. They took us in and they

    6 drove us to a shop. They got off, sat at a table to

    7 have a drink, we stayed in the bus.

    8 Then a man came up to us, gave us each a

    9 packet of cigarettes and a pint of fruit juice, a litre

    10 and he introduced himself but I've forgotten his name.

    11 He asked us whether we were hungry. We said we were.

    12 He took us to give us food to eat and he made us

    13 coffee. Then they put us back on the bus and took us

    14 back to Karakaj.

    15 In Karakaj, there was a military truck with

    16 some 20 men on it who had also been captured. I got on

    17 to the truck, I got on to the truck. They put hand

    18 cuffs on my hands. And we were driven to Batkovici, to

    19 the camp there.

    20 Q. What day, if you recall, were you finally

    21 released and made free?

    22 A. From the camp?

    23 Q. Yes, from the camp.

    24 A. On the 26th of the December, 1995.

    25 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have no further questions,

  108. 1 Mr. President.

    2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think

    3 that we need a break now. Perhaps a short break, 15

    4 minutes. And then the Defence will ask its questions.

    5 --- Recess taken at 2.05 p.m.

    6 --- On resuming at 2.21 p.m.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness Q,

    8 you are now going to answer questions which

    9 Mr. Petrusic, the Defence attorney, will ask you,

    10 please.

    11 Mr. Petrusic, you have the floor.

    12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    13 Your Honours.

    14 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic:

    15 Q. Good afternoon sir?

    16 A. Good afternoon.

    17 Q. You lived in Suceska from 1992 until

    18 Srebrenica fell?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Do you know that in that location, Mr. Zulfo

    21 Tursunovic lived there and was militarily active there?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. He was one of the commanders in the military

    24 establishment?

    25 A. Yes.

  109. 1 Q. Did he or somebody from his staff issue the

    2 order for the able-bodied men to take the route you

    3 took?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. The rallying of the population of that age

    6 group in Susnjari, did that take place spontaneously?

    7 A. What do you mean? Could you explain that to

    8 me?

    9 Q. When I say "spontaneously", I mean that there

    10 was no order issued by anyone, any individual or body

    11 belonging to the military or the political leadership

    12 of the area?

    13 A. I don't know. I know I heard from others

    14 that we were going to Jaglici, to Susnjari. I never

    15 saw Zulfo, I think he must have left before then.

    16 Q. Do you have any knowledge about the fact that

    17 units under his command in the summer and autumn of

    18 1992 and the winter of 1993 until the area was

    19 proclaimed a protected zone had carried out combat

    20 operations against both military forces of Republika

    21 Srpska as well as the civilian population around

    22 Srebrenica?

    23 A. I don't remember.

    24 Q. On the 13th of July, you were at the soccer

    25 pitch in Kasaba?

  110. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. You said that a list was made of those of you

    3 present there at the playing ground?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Do you know, did you see who took that list?

    6 A. I think it was Mladic.

    7 Q. After that, you remained in the football

    8 pitch?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Can you tell us when you left the field to go

    11 towards Bratunac?

    12 A. It was in the afternoon an hour before

    13 nightfall, perhaps.

    14 Q. And when did you pass through Kravica, was it

    15 dark?

    16 A. Not yet. It was dusk. Night had started to

    17 fall.

    18 Q. On what side of the bus were you seated?

    19 A. I was standing in the bus.

    20 Q. And this warehouse, how far is it from the

    21 road?

    22 A. Not very far.

    23 Q. Can you be more precise?

    24 A. I don't know exactly. I couldn't really tell

    25 you how far it was.

  111. 1 Q. When from the school at Pilica, you went to

    2 fetch water, you heard shots or rather shooting that

    3 lasted. From that spot, could you see what was

    4 happening?

    5 A. No.

    6 Q. What was happening in the schoolyard?

    7 A. No, I only heard screams and shooting because

    8 it was dark.

    9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

    10 Mr. President, the Defence has no further questions.

    11 Q. Thank you, Witness.

    12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,

    13 Mr. Petrusic.

    14 Mr. McCloskey, have you any additional

    15 questions.

    16 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, Judge

    18 Riad.

    19 JUDGE RIAD: No, thank you, Mr. President.

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Wald,

    21 no.

    22 JUDGE WALD: I have no questions either.

    23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In that

    24 case, Witness Q, you have finished your testimony here

    25 at the International Criminal Tribunal.

  112. 1 We're very glad that you managed to survive

    2 those terrible events that you were able to testify

    3 to.

    4 We wish you a safe journey home and we hope

    5 that you will have a life that will give you reason to

    6 smile again. Don't move for the moment.

    7 Mr. McCloskey, I think we have several

    8 matters to deal with this question of Exhibit 24/5.1.

    9 The exhibit submitted under that number was, in fact,

    10 23/1.1, so we need to correct that.

    11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

    12 I'm, at this point, just slightly confused about all

    13 things exhibit-wise.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No

    15 problem. Mr. Mark Dubuisson knows everything by

    16 exhibits and is going to explain it to us.

    17 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Exhibit

    18 23/1.1 is the document shown by the Prosecutor

    19 directly to the witness and it was a photograph which

    20 was not annotated by Jean Ruez. It was a photograph of

    21 the school.

    22 And finally there is an exhibit, that is the

    23 first one that needs to be corrected. The second one

    24 is 24.5.1 an aerial photograph. Again, one that was

    25 not numbered because 24/5 was annotated by the first

  113. 1 witness.

    2 So 24/5.1 is an aerial photograph of the

    3 execution site.

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I also know

    5 a little bit about exhibits, don't I, Mr. Dubuisson?

    6 THE REGISTRAR [Interpretation] Yes, of

    7 course, Mr. President.

    8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

    9 Mr. Petrusic, have you any objections regarding the

    10 admission of these exhibits?

    11 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No,

    12 Mr. President.

    13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

    14 very much, Mr. Petrusic.

    15 So these exhibits will be admitted into

    16 evidence as explained by Mr. Dubuisson and which I also

    17 have confirmed.

    18 I think we have to make a very short break

    19 before we begin our Status Conference. So we will only

    20 have a five-minute break.

    21 As I was saying, we need a five-minute break

    22 and we will have our Status Conference in closed

    23 session.

    24 Mr. Harmon, you have something to say.

    25 MR. HARMON: Yes, Mr. President. This

  114. 1 morning I announced that we would have two witnesses

    2 and at the conclusion of the second witnesses, we would

    3 like to tender some exhibits, some additional

    4 documents. And if we could be permitted to do that

    5 before we have the Status Conference then we can

    6 conclude the presentation of our evidence in this

    7 particular trial block.

    8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps it

    9 will be better to do that afterwards. I think it is

    10 more urgent to have the Status Conference than to have

    11 those documents.

    12 Perhaps during the Status Conference I can

    13 suggest a solution to deal with that matter. I think

    14 it is more urgent to have the Status Conference than to

    15 deal with those exhibits now.

    16 So we're going to have only a five-minute

    17 break. We will come back into the courtroom without a

    18 witness.

    19 Please, Witness, don't move because of your

    20 protective measures. Good-bye, witness, therefore.

    21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

    22 2.33, to be followed by a Status

    23 Conference



Page 3054