Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4152

1 Monday, 19 June 2000

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, ladies and

6 gentlemen; good morning to the technical booth and the interpreters. I

7 can see that they're all here. We can see better in this courtroom

8 whether they are or not.

9 [In English] Madam Registrar, will you call the case, please.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-33-T, the Prosecutor versus

11 Radislav Krstic.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As we haven't worked for some

13 time, Mr. Harmon, would you introduce the Prosecution for us, please.

14 MR. HARMON: Good morning, Mr. President; good morning, Your

15 Honours; good morning to my colleagues for the Defence.

16 Today assisting me are my colleagues and co-counsel, Mr. Andrew

17 Cayley to my right, and to his right, Mr. Peter McCloskey.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

19 Mr. Harmon.

20 Mr. Petrusic, would you present yourself, please.

21 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours; good

22 morning to my colleagues of the Prosecution. The Defence is as it has

23 been so far, myself, Mr. Petrusic, and my colleague on my left,

24 Mr. Visnjic.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning to you too, General

Page 4153

1 Krstic.

2 We're going to take up the case where we left off. What do we

3 have today, Mr. Harmon?

4 MR. HARMON: Mr. President and Your Honours, we have a protected

5 witness, and in order to proceed with him we will need to lower the

6 blinds. We anticipate calling today two, possibly three witnesses.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. We're going to have the

8 blinds drawn for the moment and we'll raise them later on.

9 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Witness U.

10 MR. HARMON: Thank you.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam

12 Registrar.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness U. Can

15 you hear me?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. Yes, I can hear you.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You are now going to read the

18 solemn declaration that the usher is going to hand to you.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you feel comfortable and are

Page 4154

1 you rested? Perhaps you could draw your chair closer to the microphone,

2 please, if you would.

3 Witness U, we're going to refer to you in that way for reasons of

4 security. You shall now be answering questions put to you by Mr. Harmon.

5 Mr. Harmon is to your right.

6 Your witness, Mr. Harmon.

7 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Examined by Mr. Harmon:

9 Q. Good morning, Witness U.

10 A. Good morning.

11 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise to both

12 you and Mr. Harmon, but we need the list with the witness' name for the

13 Defence and for the Trial Chamber.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Petrusic, for

15 drawing our attention to that. I was thinking of that very same thing.

16 Witness, I apologise, but before we begin, you're going to be

17 shown a piece of paper with your name written on it. You will give us a

18 yes or no answer whether it is your name or not. Just that, please.

19 Thank you.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that is, indeed, my

21 name.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Thank you. We are ready,

23 I think.

24 Mr. Harmon, I apologise for forgetting that, but I'm sure you had

25 it in mind, and I should like to thank Mr. Petrusic for drawing it to our

Page 4155

1 attention. Thank you.


3 Q. Witness U, could you tell us your nationality, please?

4 A. Muslim.

5 Q. And are you from Bosnia?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could you tell the Judges your educational background, please?

8 A. I graduated from several secondary schools. My basic education

9 was at the gymnasium, the general secondary school. I was not able to get

10 a job straight away, so that I worked as an electrician for a long time.

11 Q. Witness U, we're going to spend a lot of time today talking about

12 radios, and you have told me about your interest in radios and I would

13 appreciate it if you would tell the Judges when you became interested in

14 radios and what types of special classifications or certificates you

15 received in the pursuit of your interest in radios.

16 A. Your Honours, my interest started when I was 14. I was interested

17 in electronics and radios, radio devices, which is when I attended a

18 constructor's sector in the field, and graduated from that, and went on to

19 a second course three years later. And I held a "C" classification in

20 amateur radio, a radio ham. And do you wish me to go on?

21 Q. Very briefly, Witness U, could you explain to the Judges what a

22 "C" classification is?

23 A. A "C" classification for a radio ham is an examination which

24 everybody passes in that field in the world. It is an international

25 examination. It is composed of abbreviations for certain names,

Page 4156

1 countries, and even sentences. You have to know calligraphy and work with

2 radio devices, radios themselves.

3 Q. Now, Witness U, in 1992 you joined the JNA; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. And you remained in active service in the JNA for 14 months;

6 correct?

7 A. That is correct, yes.

8 Q. Did you have a speciality while you were in the JNA?

9 A. Yes. I was a radio calligraphist, which included a teleprinter.

10 Q. And in the course of your service in the JNA, did you become

11 familiar with the types of radio devices within your unit that were being

12 used by the JNA?

13 A. Yes, I did. In short, all the devices that my unit had in its

14 possession and on the basis of textbooks, I was able to expand my

15 knowledge considerably in the field.

16 Q. Now, after you left the JNA, Witness U, did you continue in the

17 reserves?

18 A. Yes, I did, from 1984 onwards, when I attended a seminar, a

19 course, and got a rank. And I did the "B" category exam and was

20 interested in radio -- became even more interested in radio electronics

21 and radio devices, and I got the rank of sergeant.

22 Q. So, Witness U, while you were in the JNA reserves, you continued

23 to be involved with radios and radio communications; is that a fair

24 statement?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4157

1 Q. In addition to that, you pursued your interest in amateur radio

2 and achieved what's called the "B" certificate?

3 A. That is correct, yes.

4 Q. Very, very briefly, Witness U, what is a "B" certificate in

5 amateur radio; what does it mean?

6 A. A "B" certificate in radio amateurism is a higher category which

7 requires a better knowledge of amateur radio communication, the handling

8 of equipment, and more telegraphic signs, and you have to be more adapt in

9 all fields and have to have a good knowledge of electronics as well.

10 Q. Now, Witness U, did you maintain your interest in radios and radio

11 communication up until the time the conflict in Bosnia started?

12 A. Yes, I did. I even had my own radio transmitters, and I worked

13 with different frequencies and bands.

14 Q. Did you construct radio stations?

15 A. Yes, I did. Since 1982 or 1983, that was when I began

16 constructing radio stations.

17 Q. Witness U, I would now like to direct your attention to the time

18 when the war started in Bosnia. Tell the Judges what you first did when

19 the war started in order to serve your country.

20 A. At the very beginning of the war, I worked for the civilian

21 authorities and I was in a reserve formation. I assisted them in

22 technical matters, in installations. I helped them install devices,

23 develop radio networks, and installations, as I say, the installation and

24 function. We use the term "visual reconnaissance stations"; that is the

25 term we use. And also let me add -- just one moment, please, if I may

Page 4158

1 take a minute. I worked with codes and plans for radio devices, drawing

2 up plans for the functioning of radio devices.

3 Q. Did you initially work in civil defence?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. Now, at some point in time, did you stop working for the civil

6 defence authorities and start working for the army or for the military

7 authorities?

8 A. Yes. On the (redacted).

9 Q. And very, very generally, what were your duties and obligations

10 when you made a transition from the civil defence authorities to the

11 military authorities?

12 A. (redacted)

13 (redacted).

14 Q. Now, can you define the term "anti-electronic combat"?

15 A. Anti-electronic combat consists of the following: It consists of

16 monitoring and emission.

17 Q. "Monitoring," by that do you mean monitoring the enemy

18 communications?

19 A. Yes, that is precisely what it does, and "emission" also means

20 interception of those same facilities.

21 Q. Did you remain in the field of anti-electronic warfare until the

22 conclusion of the war in Bosnia?

23 A. Yes, that's right, until I was relieved of the services on the

24 (redacted).

25 Q. Now, let me ask you just some general questions, Witness U. In

Page 4159

1 the military, can you tell us very briefly, what's the purpose of

2 intercepting enemy communications? Why do you do it?

3 A. This is done so that we can detect on time the enemy movements,

4 whether the enemy is advancing, whether they are encountering any

5 problems, and to discover the intent, the enemy's intent, which are

6 usually secret, confidential.

7 Q. Now, Witness U, to your knowledge, did each of the parties in the

8 war, the Bosnian Croats, the Bosnian Serbs, the Croatian army, the army of

9 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, did each of those parties to the

10 combat have an anti-electronic warfare unit?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So this type of unit in which you served was a unit that was in

13 all of the armies.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, in the course of attempting to intercept and listen to

16 communications of the enemy, do you also intercept communications that are

17 encrypted, that are coded, and that are open-line communications with no

18 encryption and no codes?

19 A. Both, yes.

20 Q. Now I'd like to focus, Witness U, and I'd like you to give us very

21 briefly, in very elementary terms, a lesson on how radios work, how

22 communications work, and essentially how you intercept the communication.

23 If you could first of all describe how radio communications are made and

24 what you look for in terms of intercepting such a communication.

25 A. Yes. Radio communication is communication between two parties

Page 4160

1 which is not a physical communication. It goes on the air, through the

2 airwaves. For example, a radio communication can be established in the

3 following way: You need two receivers and two transmitters which can work

4 in a duplex fashion, which means that they are switched on all the time or

5 partially. It functions in such a way that one of the participants has

6 their transmitter and an antenna, and it emits its bands or wavelengths in

7 code or encryption towards the receiver who also has an antenna for

8 reception. That is how communication between the two parties is

9 established.

10 Q. I'm sorry. Please continue.

11 A. Yes, please go ahead. We intercept this communication by

12 positioning ourselves in a particular locality on one waveband. It is a

13 selected location where communication already exists. We direct our

14 antenna in the direction that we wish to have them function and then we

15 usually wait. There is a waiting period until communication begins.

16 Those are the initial steps.

17 Q. All right. Witness U, thank you for that brief lesson.

18 Let me now focus your attention to the period in July of 1995 when

19 the Srebrenica enclave fell to the Bosnian Serb army. First of all, can

20 you tell the Judges the name of the unit in which you were serving?

21 A. It was the Anti-Electronic Combat Company within the 2nd Corps,

22 and I was in the (redacted).

23 MR. HARMON: I'm going to need the assistance of the usher because

24 there's a map over here I'd like to show the witness, and it's

25 ill-positioned if we intend to keep his identity protected.

Page 4161

1 Q. Let the usher hold next to you, Witness U, a Prosecutor's Exhibit

2 which is a map. It's Prosecutor's Exhibit 138. I don't know if it can be

3 seen on the monitor in that position.

4 Witness U, could you please point out to the Judges the specific

5 location where the (redacted) of the

6 Anti-Electronic Warfare Company was located?

7 A. This is that locality.

8 MR. HARMON: It's difficult for me to see where he's pointed in

9 the circumstances, so perhaps instead of that, Mr. Usher, we could put an

10 A3-sized --

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon, have you got

12 something that we could place on the ELMO, perhaps, a document for the

13 ELMO?

14 MR. HARMON: I think that's the easier way to proceed. Thank

15 you.

16 Mr. Usher, if you could move that up a bit, please. Thank you

17 very much.

18 Q. Witness U, could you use the pointer, please, and point to the

19 location where you and your unit was stationed at the time of the fall of

20 Srebrenica.

21 A. I apologise, but it was not my platoon -- the question referred to

22 my platoon, I thought. Was that it?

23 Q. My question to you, Witness U, is can you tell us where you and

24 your men who were intercepting these radio communications were located?

25 A. I see. Yes, I can. This was the location where we intercepted

Page 4162

1 communications.

2 MR. HARMON: For the record, the witness has placed his pointer on

3 a green dot that is identified as Okresanica. Thank you very much,

4 Witness U.

5 Mr. Usher, thank you very much.

6 Q. Witness U, at Okresanica, were there other units beside your own

7 unit engaged in monitoring enemy communications?

8 A. Yes, there were other units too.

9 Q. Could you identify those units, please?

10 A. Yes. The civilian authorities, the police, the 21st Brigade --

11 no, I'm sorry, the 21st Division.

12 Q. So there were two units; is that correct?

13 A. Yes. Well, three.

14 Q. I should say two beside your own unit. One of those units was the

15 21st Division of the Anti-Electronic Warfare Group, and I take it the

16 other was a unit of the police. Was that a unit of the State Security

17 Service?

18 A. Yes, it was.

19 Q. Let's focus on your unit, (redacted). Witness U, how many

20 men were in the (redacted)

21 A. (redacted)

22 Q. Now --

23 A. [No interpretation]

24 MR. HARMON: I didn't get a translation for the last portion.

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the witness say

Page 4163

1 anything.


3 Q. Witness U, you said something that wasn't picked up by the

4 interpreters.

5 A. Yes. (redacted)

6 Q. All right. And tell the Judges how you worked; what kind of

7 shifts, how many people worked on a shift?

8 A. We had three shifts, one of which was the night shift. And

9 depending on the activities, on the radio equipment, there were one to

10 four men per shift. At night, there was one man and, if necessary, more,

11 for reasons of economising with manpower.

12 MR. HARMON: If I could, without placing on the ELMO, show the

13 witness Prosecution Exhibit 300, which will be an exhibit that will be

14 under seal. 300 is a list of people.

15 Q. Witness U, this is not going to be made a public exhibit. I'm

16 going to ask you: Did you assist me in preparing this exhibit, and did

17 you identify the names of the individuals who served in your group of

18 people intercepting radio communications?

19 A. Yes, I did. I gave you the names in this order on this list.

20 Q. So this list represents the people who were serving in your unit?

21 A. Yes, without doubt.

22 MR. HARMON: Thank you very much. If that exhibit could be placed

23 under seal, Mr. President.

24 Q. What was your position, Witness U, in the unit?

25 A. (redacted)

Page 4164

1 Q. Now, how long had the platoon been stationed at Okresanica,

2 intercepting enemy communications, prior to July of 1995?

3 A. Almost two years.

4 Q. Now, Witness U, from the position of Okresanica, whose

5 communications were you monitoring?

6 A. We were able, from our position at Okresanica, to monitor the area

7 of responsibility between three rivers, the Bosna, the Sava, and the

8 Drina, in very general terms. Those are the three rivers.

9 Q. And were you monitoring the communications of the HVO or were you

10 monitoring the communications of the VRS?

11 A. We were monitoring the communications of the army of Republika

12 Srpska.

13 Q. So the area that you've described to us, Witness U, is quite a

14 large area in Bosnia, and I'd like to show you now Prosecutor's Exhibit

15 139, which is a map, and if this could be placed on the ELMO.

16 Now, Witness U, this is a map that you've seen in my office before

17 coming in to testify; isn't that correct?

18 A. Yes. Yes, it is.

19 Q. And this map represents only a small area -- a small part of the

20 area that was in your area of responsibility; is that correct?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. Now, can you tell the Judges what this particular exhibit

23 represents? You can use the pointer.

24 A. The map shows a part of the area of responsibility that we were

25 covering. It is territory where the command centre was of the army of

Page 4165

1 Republika Srpska, actually the central communications -- the

2 communications centre that they had, radio relay centre, from where all

3 radio relay communications were transmitted.

4 Q. Could you point that out, please, on the ELMO, that location?

5 A. Of course. This is the radio relay centre marked here with the

6 word "Panorama".

7 MR. HARMON: For the record, the witness has pointed to the centre

8 of an area from which a number of lines radiate out.

9 Q. Now, Witness U, you said "Panorama". What is "Panorama"?

10 A. "Panorama" was the name of that radio centre.

11 Q. Is that a code name?

12 A. It is.

13 Q. Where is the radio relay centre located, near what town or in what

14 town?

15 A. The radio relay centre was in Han Pijesak.

16 Q. And was Han Pijesak the command centre for the Bosnian Serb army?

17 A. It was the main headquarters. The Main Staff of the army of

18 Republika Srpska was stationed there.

19 Q. All right. Witness U, I'm sorry to have interrupted you. Could

20 you continue on with your explanation of the various features identified

21 on this map?

22 A. The radio relay centre has several radio relay communications, as

23 can be seen on the map. So this is the main participant. The central

24 participant is linked with subordinate units. Here on the map we can see

25 that there are at least two types of radio relay links, and there are

Page 4166

1 several. Here we can see, for instance, how communication was established

2 with individual brigades and corps, such as, for instance, you can see

3 here the Bratunac Brigade, then the advanced command post of the Drina

4 Corps, the former command post of the Drina Corps. We can also see here

5 that the same radio relay transmission was not used. Then we have a link

6 with Zlotrg, then the Drina Corps in Vlasenica, then Palma, which you

7 can't see here.

8 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, will you lower the exhibit so the Judges

9 can see Palma.

10 Q. When you say "Palma", Witness U, again is Palma a code sign? If

11 it is, with what unit is it associated?

12 A. Yes, it is the code name for the Zvornik Brigade, which we can see

13 here now. All radio relay equipment was mounted on very high ground.

14 Q. Now, in the course of your description, Witness U, you described

15 Badem and you pointed out to the Judges the location of the Bratunac

16 Brigade. Could you again point out for the Judges the radio communication

17 line leading to the Bratunac Brigade?

18 A. From the radio relay centre towards the radio relay installations

19 of that brigade.

20 Q. Now, is Badem the code name for the Bratunac Brigade?

21 A. It is.

22 Q. And when I say "code name" --

23 A. We call it the secret name.

24 Q. So, when one radio -- one person who wants to transmit a radio

25 communication to the Bratunac Brigade, how would that transmitter -- how

Page 4167

1 would the communicator refer to the Bratunac Brigade?

2 A. He would call them "Badem".

3 Q. So he wouldn't identify the unit he was attempting to make

4 communication with as the Bratunac Brigade; instead, he would identify

5 that unit as Badem?

6 A. That is right.

7 Q. Now, let me move the exhibit again to the left, and you have

8 indicated the Drina Corps headquarters. Could you point that out on this

9 map, and can you tell the Judges what their code name was?

10 A. Yes. Their code name was Zlatar.

11 Q. Now, are there other code names that are identified on this map,

12 code names for specific units?

13 A. There is Dora, Prostor, Gric, Vrelo, Matica, Bresa.

14 Q. Witness U, it's difficult to follow that. If you would merely

15 take us on a tour of this map, point out the unit and the code name, where

16 it is marked on this particular map, it would be helpful to us all.

17 A. Bresa, the Sokolac Brigade, Matica, the Romanija Brigade; then we

18 have Grmec in Skelani. That's as much as I can see on the map.

19 Q. All right. Now, Witness U, to your left, can you see the large

20 board that is to your left? It's Exhibit 137.

21 A. Yes, I can.

22 MR. HARMON: Can we use Prosecutor's Exhibit 137 and place that on

23 the ELMO, please.

24 Q. Now, Witness U, this is in English. Did you and I have an

25 opportunity yesterday in my office to review this particular exhibit which

Page 4168

1 identifies the code name of the VRS unit on the left and the corresponding

2 unit on the right?

3 A. Yes, we did.

4 Q. Is this an accurate exhibit? Does it properly identify the code

5 name with the corresponding unit on the right?

6 A. Yes, it does.

7 Q. Now, just to illustrate one more time, Witness U, if the Drina

8 Corps headquarters, which was Zlatar, wanted to contact the 1st Zvornik

9 Infantry Brigade, which was Palma, how would they identify their

10 respective units in the radio transmission, generally?

11 A. They would refer to those units in radio communication as Palma

12 and Zlatar.

13 Q. Witness U, let's even narrow the focus of your testimony down a

14 little bit more, and I'd like you to describe in precision how you and

15 your unit actually captured radio communications.

16 Starting at the point in time when you're sitting at a monitor

17 with a set of headphones listening, tell us what you would do you from

18 that point in time until the point in time when the radio communication

19 had been reduced to writing and transmitted on to your superior

20 headquarters.

21 A. I apologise, but do you mean from the moment I put the headphones

22 on onwards? Is that what you mean?

23 Q. That's what I mean.

24 A. So from the moment I put my headset on, whether it is me or any of

25 the other operators, we would wait for the participants to start

Page 4169

1 communicating, and when they do, we immediately switch on the tape

2 recorder and listen to the message. As soon as it is over, it is

3 transcribed onto a piece of paper, which means from the sound record to a

4 visual record, and then this is taken to another room where that is typed

5 out and sent on to the main headquarters.

6 Q. You told us earlier in your testimony, Witness U, that you and

7 your unit had been up at the mountaintop listening to Bosnian Serb

8 military communications for two years. Can you tell us, based on your

9 experience, whether you were able to identify the specific speakers in

10 some of the radio communications that you intercepted?

11 A. Yes, we were able to do so; extremely well, in fact.

12 Q. Now, when you intercepted the communication, was the intercepted

13 communication on a tape recording?

14 A. Yes, it was recorded on tape.

15 Q. When you earlier testified about you and your men going to reduce

16 the intercepted communication to writing, did that mean that the intercept

17 operator would again listen to the tape carefully and write down exactly

18 the communication that he had intercepted?

19 A. Yes. It's not always simple to do. Sometimes there are problems

20 when you're trying to transcribe these tapes because the quality may not

21 always be very good because of the poor connection established which we

22 managed to intercept. Then there are difficulties, so you have to rewind

23 it back and forth several times. You even have to ask the assistance of

24 other people who may know the voice better so as to make sure that the

25 message is taken down correctly.

Page 4170

1 Q. Would you on occasion listen to these intercepted radio

2 communications time and time again in order to ensure that they are

3 accurately transcribed?

4 A. Yes, that's what I just said.

5 Q. Now, besides the ability to recognise the speakers, the people who

6 were speaking on these radio communications, were there other ways that

7 you and your men could identify who was communicating?

8 A. They would sometimes give their names themselves, and then the

9 orders, judging from the orders, one could gather who was ordering whom,

10 and from that one would know who was the most important participant. Then

11 came the voice, then the other code names used, and all these little

12 pieces are put together like a jigsaw.

13 Q. Now, where were the handwritten notes of the intercepted

14 communication placed? You said pieces of paper. What kind of paper were

15 they placed on?

16 A. These were notebooks with some kind of a marking on them, at least

17 a number, and the numbers would be in order, and many of them would have

18 an indication of the type of equipment used to record and transcribe.

19 Some notebooks would have additional information; for instance, messages

20 in written form such as signatures, then the code name under which a

21 document was sent to us, then the date when the notebook first started to

22 be used, and the contents would be inside, the contents of intercepted

23 radio communications.

24 Q. Now, Witness U, before we get to the actual examination of these

25 notebooks, I want to continue with the procedure for just a minute.

Page 4171

1 After the radio communication was written down in the notebook,

2 what was the next step in the procedure?

3 A. When the message was taken down in the notebook, the next step

4 would be to take that notebook to the computer, to enter it into the

5 computer. As soon as it has been typed, making sure that no changes need

6 to be made, that it is reliable, it is sent to the command of my unit, to

7 the headquarters of my unit.

8 Q. I'm going to show you a number of copies from notebooks and

9 they're going to be in binders.

10 MR. HARMON: Your Honours should have binders, at least three

11 binders of these notebooks.

12 Before I begin this examination, I will inform Your Honours how

13 these notebooks are organised for ease of reference. These binders have

14 tabs in them and behind each tab is a copy of an individual notebook. The

15 original notebooks, which I will make available to Your Honours to

16 inspect, are here. In fact, I would invite Your Honours to inspect one or

17 two of the originals, although we would like to maintain the copies of the

18 originals as evidence. These are true copies. But this witness will be

19 able to identify specific notebooks in the three volumes, and I'm going to

20 now ask him to examine, with the assistance of the usher, certain exhibits

21 contained in these notebooks.

22 Mr. Usher, will you turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 279 and show it

23 to the witness, please.

24 Q. Witness U, the usher will open up the notebook and show you tab 1,

25 Prosecutor's Exhibit 279. Would you quickly inspect that exhibit, Witness

Page 4172

1 U, and let me ask you, is this a notebook that was prepared by your unit?

2 If so, can you tell the Judges how you know that to be the case?

3 A. This is a notebook from our location that we used. I can

4 recognise my handwriting, "REU 128," and there are 52 persons mentioned,

5 and there is my signature. I can even see text written in my own hand

6 inside the notebook --

7 Q. Witness U --

8 A. -- and there are other indications by which I can tell.

9 Q. You've examined the original of that notebook in my office prior

10 to coming here to testify; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, correct.

12 Q. Now, does this particular notebook contain the intercepted

13 conversations that were recorded by members of your staff?

14 A. Yes, it does. This can be seen from the handwriting that I can

15 recognise. The way in which we marked these messages, we had a unified

16 manner. Then the frequency, the order, the participants we intercepted,

17 the participants from our own area of responsibility. So this is our

18 notebook.

19 Q. Now, the written records of each intercepted communication that

20 are contained in that notebook, were they made at or about the time you

21 actually intercepted the communication?

22 A. Yes, at the exact time or round about the exact time that the

23 interception took place.

24 Q. And do those written records of each intercepted communication

25 consist of a verbatim recording of the intercepted communication?

Page 4173

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And were these notebooks, such as Exhibit 279, kept by the army as

3 part of their regular business?

4 A. Yes, that's right.

5 Q. All right. I'm going to go through this exercise with you now for

6 a series of other notebooks.

7 MR. HARMON: But, Your Honours, I also have some of the originals,

8 which I'm prepared to pass up to Your Honours. It may be of assistance to

9 you. Frankly, it gives a better flavour of what these notebooks consist

10 of. I'll make them available to my colleagues as well. But if I could

11 pass two or three exemplars up to Your Honours now, then I could continue

12 with this examination.

13 Q. Witness U, while the Judges and Defence counsel are examining the

14 original copies of these notebooks, if you would turn your attention

15 briefly to Prosecutor's Exhibit 280, which will be the next item I'm going

16 to be asking you about. The usher will assist you.

17 If you would inspect Exhibit 280, Witness U, and I would ask you

18 if you could identify that as a notebook that was also from your unit.

19 MR. HARMON: Have counsel and Your Honours had sufficient time to

20 examine the original notebooks? And if so, I'll continue with my

21 examination.

22 Q. Witness U, is Exhibit 280 a notebook that was taken by members of

23 your unit?

24 A. Document 280 is also a document kept by the representatives of my

25 unit, yes.

Page 4174

1 Q. And again does that accurately reflect the substance of the

2 conversations that were intercepted by members of your unit?

3 A. Yes, that is precisely it.

4 Q. And do those notes accurately verbatim contain the intercepted

5 communication or the parts of the intercepted communication as heard on

6 the radio transmission?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Again, this notebook and all of the notebooks I'm going to be

9 asking you about were maintained by the army in the regular course of

10 their business; is that correct?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. Now, could you turn your attention to the next notebook, which is

13 Prosecutor's Exhibit 282. Witness U, we're going to go through this same

14 exercise with a number of these notebooks. If you could just tell me if

15 this was a notebook that was maintained by your unit, prepared by your

16 unit.

17 A. Yes, that's right.

18 Q. Turn to the next exhibit, please, 283. Would you inspect that,

19 please?

20 MR. HARMON: I'll say for the record, Mr. President and Your

21 Honours, I've shown the witness the original notebooks of each of these

22 exhibits I'm going to be identifying, and they are an exact copy. But I

23 think it is necessary for the witness to make that representation to the

24 Trial Chamber.

25 A. This too is a document that was compiled in my unit at that time.

Page 4175


2 Q. And that's an exact copy of the original; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 Q. Could you turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 284, which is the next

5 exhibit. Can you identify that notebook as a notebook that was prepared

6 by either you or members of your unit?

7 A. Yes, it is. That document was prepared by my unit as well.

8 Q. Take a look at the next exhibit, Prosecutor's Exhibit 285,

9 please. Is that a notebook, Witness U, 285, that is prepared by members

10 of your unit?

11 A. Yes, it is. That is the notebook prepared by members of my unit.

12 Q. Could you turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 287, please. Is this a

13 notebook that was prepared by members of your unit?

14 A. Yes, that too is a document prepared by my unit.

15 Q. Could you turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 288, please. Witness U, is

16 Prosecutor's Exhibit 288 a notebook that was prepared by members of your

17 unit?

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 Q. Could you turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 290, please. Would you

20 inspect that and tell us whether that is a notebook that was also prepared

21 by members of your unit?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Lastly, would you take a look at Prosecutor's Exhibit 294,

24 please.

25 A. Yes. That too is the document from my unit, compiled at that

Page 4176

1 time.

2 Q. So all of the documents that I've just shown you, all of those

3 exhibits you've been able to identify as coming from your unit by either

4 recognising the handwriting of your colleagues or recognising your own

5 entries in them; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. And in respect of each of these notebooks, each of these notebooks

8 contain the accurate recording of intercepted radio communications; is

9 that correct?

10 A. Yes, that is correct.

11 MR. HARMON: All right. Mr. President, I don't know when Your

12 Honours want a break, if this is the appropriate time. I don't have too

13 much more for this witness, but we're going to go into specific

14 conversations next.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Harmon, I think that

16 this is a very good time to take a break. We'll have a 20-minute recess.

17 --- Recess taken at 10.45 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 11.28 a.m.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed. We

20 apologise for the delay. Perhaps I should speak in English.

21 [In English] I must say that maybe we will change "blind" from a

22 noun to an adjective to qualify its behaviour. It is something ridiculous

23 to have all this time, 25 minutes, because of this problem. So I think

24 it's necessary to pay attention to this, and I ask the registrar to refer

25 this problem to the Registrar. Okay?

Page 4177

1 [Interpretation] We are now going to continue.

2 Mr. Harmon, it's your turn.

3 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. President and Your Honours.

4 I'm going to focus the attention of the witness on two

5 conversations that are found in the notebooks that he specifically

6 listened to and recorded. The first of those is found, Your Honours, for

7 your reference, in Prosecutor's Exhibit 279, and it is found at page

8 00778904. I've marked in the exhibit copy of the exhibit the reference so

9 I could show it to the witness.

10 Mr. Usher, we have an independent copy of just this conversation.

11 It is Prosecutor's Exhibit 301-1C. If the first page of the Bosnian copy

12 could be placed on the ELMO, just the first page.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please speak into the microphone,

14 please, Mr. Harmon. Thank you.

15 MR. HARMON: If we could place the first page, the excerpt on the

16 ELMO, not the second page because the witness is identified by his

17 initials at the end of that.

18 Q. Now, let me ask you, Witness U, the conversation that you see on

19 the monitor in front of you, is that the same conversation that appears in

20 Prosecutor's Exhibit 279, which is in front of you in the binder?

21 Did you understand my question? Maybe you didn't hear it. Let me

22 repeat my question because I don't think you could hear it. Is the

23 exhibit that is on the monitor in front of you a copy of the page that's

24 marked in Prosecutor's Exhibit 279?

25 A. It is.

Page 4178

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you reduce the tone, please.


3 Q. Will you take a look at the exhibit that is in the binder, 279, at

4 page 00778904. Let me ask you, is this a conversation -- strike that. Is

5 the handwriting on this exhibit your handwriting? I think the binder

6 keeps turning off the earphones for this witness so he can't hear my

7 questions.

8 Let me ask you once again, Witness U --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. -- the handwriting in the notebook, which is found at page

11 00778904 and 8905, is that your handwriting?

12 A. Yes, it is my handwriting.

13 Q. Is this a conversation that you personally intercepted?

14 A. Yes, it is.

15 Q. Is this an intercepted communication that you then reduced to

16 writing in the notebook, which is Prosecutor's Exhibit 279?

17 A. It is.

18 MR. HARMON: The language booth should have the English and a

19 French translation of this particular exhibit, and I think for purposes of

20 making the procedure more efficient I'm going to ask the language booth

21 merely to translate the exhibit that's on the ELMO. They have copies of

22 the official language translations, and if they can just read the

23 translations into the record, we can then turn to the next exhibit.

24 For the benefit of the language service people, the English

25 translation is 301-1A and the French translation of the exhibit that's on

Page 4179

1 the ELMO is 301-1B. So if those could be read into the record.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could we suggest that the witness read it out in

3 B/C/S?

4 MR. HARMON: No. I'm suggesting that the language booth, which

5 has a copy of the translation provided to it by the Office of the

6 Prosecutor, merely read the translation of this document.

7 THE INTERPRETER: [as read] Just a moment, to Colonel Vukovic.

8 MR. HARMON: Could you start in the upper left-hand corner which

9 indicates a series of numbers and channels and time.

10 THE INTERPRETER: [as read] 7847 - channel 5 - 2056 hours.

11 Major-General Zivanovic - X.

12 X: Just a moment, to Colonel Vukovic. /as written/

13 M: Good evening.

14 X: Evening.

15 M: How's it going?

16 X: We are fine, how about you?

17 M: How can I find out where General Zivanovic is? I've been

18 waiting here for him on his orders since 1700 hours.

19 X: He's here.

20 M: What?

21 X: He's here.

22 M: There?

23 X: Yes.

24 M: Well, put me through to him.

25 X: I'll try now.

Page 4180

1 Z: Yes?

2 M: Good evening.

3 Z: Good evening, Vuko.

4 M: Things are all right, good, here. I did everything in the

5 spirit of what I received last night. And in morning /?he/ called me

6 Natasku /word unknown/ and I came here this morning at around 10 o'clock

7 and I /as written/.

8 Z: Major!

9 M: Yes, yes, I understand you.

10 Z: I just came from the checkpoint.

11 M: Could you repeat that, please?

12 Z: I said that paper which was sent - there is one - from

13 Blagojevic, about me.

14 M: OK.

15 Z: Read my conclusions.

16 M: I understand.

17 Z: Because (from here on drowned out by previously recorded

18 conversation)

19 M: I understand, completely, and then we'll focus on the one down

20 there (drowned out again by previously recorded conversation).

21 M: I understand. I'm going to put my post up there.

22 Z: Listen. Where up there are your boys?

23 M: Well, my boys are now in the western part, working there as of

24 today. Everything's in place, sweet as a nut.

25 Z: Excellent.

Page 4181

1 M: I did that today.

2 Z: ... (mumbles something short).

3 M: I understand.

4 Z: Take care.

5 M: Take care.

6 MR. HARMON: Please don't read the signature and the initials that

7 are associated with this. Thank you very much.

8 Q. Now, Witness U, who is "Z" in this conversation?

9 A. It is "Z", and in this conversation it was General Zivanovic.

10 Q. You told us in your earlier examination that after a conversation

11 was handwritten into a notebook, it was then typed, and a typed copy of

12 the conversation was forwarded on up your chain of command. Let me show

13 you the next exhibit.

14 MR. HARMON: If the B/C/S version, first of all, could be shown to

15 the witness so he can inspect it. It's Prosecutor's Exhibit 301-2B. If

16 that could be shown to the witness so he could look at it himself, and

17 then we'll place that on the ELMO.

18 Q. First of all, would you inspect that, Witness U. Witness U, is

19 this the typed version of the intercepted communication that was prepared

20 by you or by a member of your unit and then forwarded up the chain of

21 command?

22 A. Yes, that is the document typed out in our unit and forwarded up

23 the chain of command.

24 Q. And was that document prepared on the same day that the

25 conversation that has just been read into the record was intercepted?

Page 4182

1 A. Yes, it was.

2 Q. And what date, then, looking at this document, was it that the

3 conversation that was just read into the record -- what date was it

4 intercepted?

5 A. On the first document, there's no date. On the second, there is a

6 date.

7 Q. And so what is that date?

8 A. The 14th of July, 1995.

9 MR. HARMON: All right. Thank you very much. We've finished with

10 this particular document. We'll turn to another conversation.

11 For Your Honours' reference, this next conversation is found in

12 Prosecutor's Exhibit 280, and it is found at page 00779705.

13 Witness U, I've marked that with a yellow tab for your ease of

14 reference in Prosecutor's Exhibit 280. Mr. Usher, if you could kindly

15 place the first page of the B/C/S version, which is Prosecutor's Exhibit

16 302-1C, on the ELMO.

17 Q. Let me ask you, Witness U, you have the actual copy of the

18 notebook, Prosecutor's Exhibit 280, in front of you and the conversation

19 I've just referred to. Now, would you examine the conversation that's in

20 the notebook and the conversation that is on the monitor in front of you,

21 and are they the same conversations?

22 A. Yes, they are the same conversations.

23 Q. Was this a conversation -- first of all, is this your handwriting

24 on the page 00779705?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 4183

1 Q. And this is your handwriting in 302-1C as well, the version that's

2 on the ELMO?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. Is this a conversation that you personally intercepted?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. And did you faithfully record from the tape to the notebook the

7 contents of that conversation?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. HARMON: Now, if we could follow the same procedure that we

10 did before, if I could ask the language booths to translate this

11 document. I will give you the numbers. The English translation for this

12 document is 302-1A, and the French version is 302-1B. If we could start

13 in the same procedure that we did before and if it could be completely

14 read.

15 THE INTERPRETER: [as read] At 2102 hours, 784.7 MHz, Channel 3.

16 Priority.

17 Palma Duty Officer (Major Jokic) - Badem - X - Y.

18 : Hello, Badem. Let me talk to Beara.

19 B: Who wants to talk to him?

20 : The Palma duty officer wants to talk to

21 him. Beara is needed urgently, somebody

22 needs him. The Superior Command urgently

23 needs him, but he has to call me.

24 B: Okay.

25 P: Okay, what? Give me Beara. Don't hang

Page 4184

1 up.

2 J: Hello, who is it, Major, I'm the duty

3 officer at Palma. I need Beara urgently.

4 This is Major Jokic. Who is that? Why the

5 fuck are you not answering? Is Ostoja

6 there? Is Brko there? Don't fuck around.

7 The line has to be free, and you must pick it

8 up right away. Who is Ostoja? Is Ostoja

9 there? Have him call me urgently. I will, I

10 will. Hello, hello.

11 B: Here is Beara, you have him on the line.

12 J: Hello.

13 X: Hello. Is the operations duty officer

14 looking for me? Go ahead. Vojanovic is not

15 here, he is up at Snagovo. There are some

16 problems there, at the line I've told you

17 about. The Turks have pushed our guys back

18 towards Crni Vrh.

19 Y: ...

20 X: Yes. I told him to consolidate the lines

21 up there. That's it.

22 J: Hello.

23 B: Just a moment. One moment old man.

24 J: Is that Beara? Jokic here.

25 BE: ...

Page 4185

1 J: We were together, Colonel, sir. Number

2 155 called you and asked you to call him

3 urgently.

4 BE: ...

5 J: Number 155. That's, I mean, Superior

6 Command, you go ahead and call them, you

7 have, so I don't speak like this.

8 BE: ...

9 J: Yes. Hey. We have huge problems over

10 here.

11 BE: ...

12 J: There are big problems. Well with the

13 people, I mean, with the parcel.

14 BE: ...

15 J: Who? Drago is nowhere around. I don't

16 know where the others are all day.

17 BE: ...

18 J: What? Call up there number 155 in the

19 Superior Command and that's it. Okay, boss.

20 BE: ... Why number 155? Where is that?

21 J: Well, I can't tell you on this line, you

22 know. You have it over there at the

23 signalmen, who that is.

24 BE: Yes?

25 J: Bye.

Page 4186

1 Remark: Thanks to the switchboard operator's

2 mistake at Badem, we recorded a conversation

3 between "X" and "Y", who couldn't be heard,

4 while he was intercepting and the line 44 was

5 open for Jokic.


7 Q. Witness U, let me ask you some specific questions about this

8 intercepted communication. First let me refer you to the terms "Palma"

9 and "duty officer". You earlier testified about code names. Palma was

10 associated with what location?

11 A. Palma was the Zvornik Brigade.

12 Q. And Badem?

13 A. Badem was the Drina Corps. Sorry --

14 Q. You can refer to one of the maps. It's been many years. If you

15 would like to refer to either the Prosecutor's Exhibit 137, which is the

16 large board, or the green map.

17 A. The Bratunac Brigade.

18 Q. In this conversation, next to a speaker there are dots. What do

19 the dots represent?

20 A. The dots represent something that was either not heard, that was

21 poorly heard, or that was unintelligible.

22 Q. So where you couldn't understand or couldn't hear it, you inserted

23 dots in order to maintain the accuracy of what you could, in fact, hear?

24 A. Yes, precisely so. Only the things that we were sure of were put

25 down on paper.

Page 4187

1 Q. Witness U, looking at the handwritten document that's in front of

2 you, the notebook version of this conversation, is there any date when

3 this particular conversation was intercepted?

4 A. There's no date on this document.

5 Q. Now let me focus your attention on part of your earlier testimony

6 when you said there was a group of other people who were intercepting

7 communications from the location where your group was located, that is, a

8 group from the State Security Service. Did you and the State Security

9 Service share the information that you had intercepted on a daily basis?

10 A. Yes, we would pass on our information to that service.

11 Q. Would they prepare a report containing the information that you

12 had shared with them?

13 A. Yes, they did prepare a report.

14 Q. And have you seen copies of their reports that they would forward

15 to their higher command?

16 A. No, I did not.

17 Q. Well, let me show you Prosecutor's Exhibit 302-2C, the four-page

18 document. If you can identify it, I would appreciate it. If you can't,

19 just tell me you can't.

20 MR. HARMON: If that could be given to the witness so he can

21 inspect. If you could turn to the last page of that document. It should

22 be a four-page document.

23 A. Yes, it is the same document that I have in the notebook.


25 Q. So let me just ask you some questions. If not, I'll proceed with

Page 4188

1 this document through another witness. Have you ever seen this type of a

2 document before?

3 A. No.

4 MR. HARMON: I won't ask any additional questions on this

5 document. I have another witness who will come in and identify this

6 document.

7 I have no additional questions of this witness. Thank you very

8 much, Mr. President and Your Honours.

9 Thank you, Witness U. The Defence will ask you questions next.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you very much,

11 Mr. Harmon.

12 Mr. Petrusic, your witness.

13 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic:

15 Q. Good morning, Witness U.

16 The unit (redacted) belonged or was

17 subordinated to the 2nd Corps of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, was it

18 not?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Witness U, before I pass on to my next question, as both of us

21 speak the same language, please be so kind as to make a short pause after

22 my question of 10 to 15 seconds for the benefit of the interpreters.

23 At the location where your unit was stationed, was a unit of the

24 21st Division also stationed there?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4189

1 Q. Your unit and the unit of the 21st Division, were they coordinated

2 or, rather, did they have a single command?

3 A. For me, no.

4 Q. So you were under the command of the 2nd Corps, were you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did these two units coordinate their activities?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Was your equipment placed in the same room?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you act on the basis of the same documents? Were your basic

11 procedures the same?

12 A. I don't know how they operated.

13 Q. Can it be said that the basic documents regulating electronic

14 surveillance and anti-electronic warfare, orders for electronic

15 surveillance and anti-electronic warfare, document 1, and document 2, the

16 plan for electronic surveillance and anti-electronic warfare, are they one

17 and the same?

18 A. I'm afraid I did not understand your question. Could you repeat

19 it, please?

20 Q. Did you have orders in the form of documents for electronic

21 surveillance and anti-electronic warfare?

22 A. Yes, we did.

23 Q. Did you have a plan for electronic surveillance and

24 anti-electronic warfare?

25 A. Not in written form.

Page 4190

1 Q. Your superior commander from the 2nd Corps, did he issue you such

2 a plan?

3 A. It is sufficient to say that we had orders. The plan is not

4 important in this case.

5 Q. Would you please be so kind as to answer my question, please. You

6 said there was no plan in written form. Does that imply that it was

7 issued orally?

8 A. It implies no.

9 Q. In the premises in which you worked, did you act, allow me to call

10 it, "conditionally" on the basis of rules for electronic surveillance and

11 anti-electronic warfare?

12 A. I don't know which rules you're referring to.

13 Q. Did you have any rules drawn up by a higher command, any normative

14 procedures which guided your operations on the basis of which you acted?

15 As a member of the former Yugoslav army in which you acquired your

16 knowledge and special training as a radio telegraph operator, you know

17 that in those areas action is regulated by rules which represent a

18 military secret of the highest confidentiality. So my question is: Did

19 your unit have such rules?

20 A. I do not agree with what you said.

21 Q. Can you please answer my question. Did you have rules on the

22 basis of which you operated?

23 A. Yes, we did.

24 Q. Did you have a logbook, a diary, for the station?

25 A. Not in the form that you are familiar with.

Page 4191

1 Q. Did your rules stipulate that such a diary be kept?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you in any way whatsoever keep records of any kind as to the

4 number of shifts and number of individuals manning those shifts?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When you took over a shift from a previous shift, did you conduct

7 this handing-over process?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You, (redacted), did you sign a paper of any kind

10 to that effect?

11 A. I don't know what kind of paper you're referring to.

12 Q. (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So the leader coming on duty and the leader going off duty would

16 hand over their affairs to the next shift and shift leader, would they

17 not?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And they did this according to a certain procedure. They would

20 keep records and inform each other of what had happened in the previous

21 shift, and possibly give instructions or guidelines to the shift coming on

22 duty stipulating the frequencies that attention should be paid to in

23 particular.

24 A. Yes. This handover of shift duty was done by the commander of the

25 company or the authorised individual in the command.

Page 4192

1 Q. All these records would go to the higher command, would they not?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The notebooks that were mentioned, the originals that have been

4 presented by the Prosecutor and the photocopies which are authentic

5 representations of the originals, who supplied you with those notebooks?

6 A. The notebooks came from the 2nd Corps command.

7 Q. Do you happen to know whether it was the duty -- that is to say,

8 whether those notebooks, at the end, on the last page, would they have a

9 stamp of the command who issued them to you, with a stamp of the unit in

10 charge, in whose safekeeping that notebook has been placed, and that it

11 should be paginated? Do you know about all that, that procedure?

12 A. I am not of the same opinion as you in these matters.

13 Q. May we say that the notebooks that came from the superior command

14 did not contain stamps either of your unit or the superior command?

15 A. They did not have a stamp, no.

16 Q. Can we say that they were not paginated either?

17 A. Well, I don't agree with you there.

18 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I have just one

19 moment, please. We received these documents just before the beginning of

20 the proceedings, and glancing through them, we were able to note that most

21 of these notebooks do not have pages on them, are not numbered. So may we

22 just have a look at them, and then I will be presenting them to the

23 witness.

24 I'll retract that question and return to it later on for technical

25 reasons, not to waste any more time.

Page 4193

1 Q. The next question is the following: At the end of each notebook,

2 was there your signature certifying that the notebook has so many pages,

3 and was your signature at the end of it?

4 A. No, not every notebook had my signature at the end of it.

5 Q. Let us take a look now at 282, Exhibit 282, please. It is

6 Prosecution Exhibit 282.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Petrusic, I apologise for

8 interrupting, but perhaps you could ask the witness the questions, because

9 otherwise you might get answers like, "I'm not of your opinion," "I don't

10 agree with you," and so on, so perhaps it would be a better way to ask a

11 direct question and the answer will be yes or no or something along those

12 lines. But please go ahead.

13 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Q. Exhibit 282, take a look at that please, and I'll go back to my

15 previous question. The pages of this notebook have not been numbered.

16 A. I apologise. Was that a question?

17 Q. Yes, it was, Witness.

18 A. The pages on this notebook do not have numbers.

19 Q. Thank you. Now, Exhibit 288 is the next document I'd like you to

20 look at. Do the pages of that notebook have numbers?

21 A. No, this notebook does not have page numbers either.

22 Q. While you were at Okresanica, did you have those two notebooks?

23 A. We received them, we used them, and we sent them back, if that's

24 your question.

25 Q. When you got through a whole notebook -- could you explain the

Page 4194

1 procedure to us -- did you send it to the superior command?

2 A. I apologise again, but I say that I got the notebook from the

3 superior command.

4 Q. Yes, but I'm asking you when the notebook has -- once it had been

5 filled out.

6 A. At the first next shift change, the notebook would go back to the

7 command again.

8 Q. Let me now go back to some technical questions on the technical

9 side of your work, your profession.

10 When you put your headsets on and you intercept a conversation,

11 you're following on one channel. How many participants can you intercept

12 and hear on that one channel?

13 A. Two participants.

14 Q. Can you hear both of them equally well?

15 A. Usually, no.

16 Q. Is there a rule of some kind as to which person you can hear

17 better, the one calling up or the one being called? And, please, could

18 you refrain from smiling. I am asking you whether the recipient of the

19 call is heard better or the caller.

20 A. In this case, it is the caller. Just one moment, please. The

21 radio relay station to which our antennae is directed, whose transmitter

22 it is on that frequency.

23 Q. Witness U, glancing through the notebooks that you prepared, we

24 can see that they all have frequencies and the time. There is no date;

25 that is to say, not on every occasion. Can you tell us why?

Page 4195

1 A. Yes, I can. There is no date for each conversation because the

2 reports to the Superior Command were sent in the form of daily bulletins,

3 and so in each of these reports -- each of these reports contain the

4 dates, but the notebook is the origin, the source, and we considered that

5 to be -- we did not consider it to be compulsory, because the main

6 document for us was actually the report.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, counsel.

8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. So the duty operator places the date on the daily report that he

10 sends to the corps; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, that is correct.

12 Q. If the daily report is sent by the operator, does that daily

13 report -- that is to say, at the end of that daily report, does he place a

14 stamp which states the day and the time when the telegram was sent, and on

15 the other side the day and time -- date and time when the telegram was

16 received?

17 A. Sir, the reports were sent out daily. As to the date, the

18 computer had a date in it, because that is how the reports were

19 transmitted.

20 Q. The audio cassettes, audiotapes doing the recording, were they

21 stored -- that is to say, were they handed over to the Superior Command as

22 well?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you know the fate of those tapes, what happened to them?

25 A. No. I would be given an empty tape, and I would send out a full

Page 4196

1 tape.

2 Q. For you to intercept two parties in a conversation, how many sets

3 of devices did you need?

4 A. One set was sufficient.

5 Q. With this one set, were you able to intercept and follow one

6 channel?

7 A. No.

8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Witness U, I have no further

9 questions.

10 Mr. President, thank you.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Petrusic.

12 Mr. Harmon, do you have any additional questions?

13 MR. HARMON: Two brief areas I would like to explore with

14 Witness U.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please go ahead.

16 Re-examined by Mr. Harmon:

17 Q. Witness U, in your direct examination you testified that your area

18 of responsibility for your unit was the area that was bordered by the

19 Sava, the Drina, and the Bosna Rivers. That's quite a large area; is that

20 correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Also there has been reference made to the 21st Division,

23 Anti-Electronic Warfare Division, being a unit that was physically at or

24 near your location but didn't work with your specific unit. My question

25 is this: Did the 21st Division, Anti-Electronic Warfare Unit, focus on a

Page 4197

1 specific area that was contained within your area of responsibility?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And what area did they focus on?

4 A. It was a more narrow area, the Posavina region and perhaps a

5 little further afield as well. You could put it that way.

6 Q. The Posavina area was north in your area of responsibility; isn't

7 that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And the area of Srebrenica and the area where the Zvornik Brigade

10 operated was more to the south, the southern part of your area of

11 responsibility; isn't that correct?

12 A. Yes, that's it.

13 Q. Now, my colleague asked you a number of questions about the dating

14 of reports, and earlier I had shown you -- and I'd like to have this

15 placed back on the ELMO, please -- Prosecutor's Exhibit 301-2B.

16 Now, we had earlier examined the page from a notebook dealing with

17 this very conversation. That was found at Exhibit 301-1C, for the

18 record. The exhibit that's on the ELMO now, Witness U, you indicated

19 earlier in your examination that this exhibit represented the typewritten

20 version of the conversation found in the notebook; is that correct?

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 Q. This is the report, in typewritten form, that was then forwarded

23 to your command; isn't that correct?

24 A. Yes, that's right.

25 MR. HARMON: Now, if that could be moved down on the ELMO, please,

Page 4198

1 Mr. Usher.

2 Q. In the upper left-hand corner, you'll see two lines. One says

3 "Broj 626", and the other says "Dana" with some numbers following it.

4 What are those numbers?

5 A. That is the number of the document we sent out, and underneath,

6 the date when it was sent.

7 Q. These types of documents such as in this exhibit were sent out on

8 a daily basis to your higher command; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, every day.

10 Q. On occasion, were such reports sent more than one time a day?

11 A. Yes, in the period when there were frequent operations on the

12 radio devices.

13 Q. So, for example, during the period of Srebrenica, was that a

14 period of intense and high activity?

15 A. Yes, that was the period.

16 Q. And so were a number of these typewritten reports sent to your

17 command, more than one a day?

18 A. In this case, probably, yes. That is to say, yes, more than once

19 a day, but I don't know whether this occurred every day during these

20 activities. But during that activity, they were sent out several times a

21 day.

22 Q. So --

23 MR. HARMON: Actually, I withdraw the question. I have no

24 additional questions, Mr. President.

25 Witness U, thank you kindly.

Page 4199

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

2 Mr. Harmon.

3 Judge Fouad Riad, do you have any questions? No.

4 Judge Wald? No.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness U, I would like to ask

6 you two or three questions.

7 Questioned by the Court:

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I have a first question for you

9 to clarify matters. What was the date when you started your military

10 service in the JNA?

11 A. Your Honours, the date I joined the ranks of the Yugoslav People's

12 Army was the 6th of April, 1982.

13 JUDGE RIAD: Because we heard "1992".

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] That is precisely why I asked

15 the question, Judge.

16 My next question: You said that at the end of your work, that is

17 to say, there was a third entity between two communicating peoples, so the

18 caller, the receiver, and this was the type of radio communication

19 employed. I should like -- that is to say, part of your work was

20 anti-electronic warfare. How many devices did you actually have, if you

21 can answer that question for me?

22 A. Your Honour, do you mean how many sets of equipment we had or how

23 many devices? I think you probably mean the number of devices.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The number of devices.

25 A. The number of devices was over 20.

Page 4200

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] How many people could work at

2 the same time with one and the same apparatus?

3 A. Your Honour, if you're asking about the devices, then one man

4 works on one device. But the situation is different if we're talking

5 about sets.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] One device could intercept

7 different frequencies or just one single frequency?

8 A. One device would listen to several channels on one band, in one

9 direction.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You also said that you could

11 listen better to transmitters which, how shall I put it, which were -- to

12 which your antenna was directed. So if you directed your antenna towards

13 your transmitter, you could listen to that transmitter better, you could

14 hear it better; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, that's right. Usually we would hear the participant better

16 whose receiver we would listen to because that participant was facing the

17 same problems that we were.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So does that mean that in the

19 transcripts of the recordings, there are many things left out; that is to

20 say, that at that point in time you did not manage to hear well. Is that

21 what we can gather from this?

22 A. We did not manage to understand at that time.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. So, Witness, I think

24 we have no further questions for you. Thank you very much for coming

25 here. We wish you a safe journey home. Don't move, please, because you

Page 4201

1 are under protective measures, and I suggest to the parties that we now

2 have a break so that the witness may leave and have the other witness

3 brought in.

4 Mr. Harmon, is the next witness protected as well?

5 MR. HARMON: The next witness is protected, Mr. President. Also

6 we have some exhibits to regulate with this witness.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Oh, yes, that's true. Regarding

8 the exhibits, Mr. Harmon.

9 MR. HARMON: Yes. We would move into evidence Prosecutor's

10 Exhibit 138, which is a map; Prosecutor's Exhibit 300, which is a list of

11 intercept operators, and we would ask that that be under seal;

12 Prosecutor's Exhibit 139, which is a green map with communication lines on

13 it; Prosecutor's 137, which is the VRS code names; and then we have a

14 series of notebooks, Prosecutor's Exhibits 279, 280, 282, 283, 284, 285,

15 287, 288, 290, 294, and we would ask that all of those exhibits be under

16 seal because they contain the identities of this protected witness and

17 other protected witnesses who will be testifying in the immediate future;

18 then we have Prosecutor's Exhibit 301-1A, B, and C, which is an

19 intercepted communication taken by this witness; and 302A, B, and C, which

20 is a second intercepted communication taken by this witness. There are

21 French and English versions with each of those. I believe that is the

22 list of the exhibits.

23 I should add, I would ask that 301-1A, B, and C and 301-2A and B

24 be under seal as well as they will identify this witness by the initials

25 that are attached on them.

Page 4202

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon, I see that Exhibits

2 281, 286, 289, and 291 to 293, you are not moving them into evidence.

3 MR. HARMON: No. We will lay the foundation for those notebooks,

4 which essentially were from a different location, through a different

5 witness.

6 I would like to add one additional exhibit I see on the chart. It

7 is 302-1A, B, and C, if I haven't mentioned that already, and 302-2A, B,

8 and C, again asking that those be under seal.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Petrusic.

10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, allow me briefly to

11 say something, hoping that I will not be misunderstood.

12 In the course of the last hearings, when we received exhibits, we

13 suggested to the Chamber and you agreed with us at the time that this

14 case -- in this case too, we are receiving a large quantity of material

15 and we would appeal to the Chamber to give us time, until the end of this

16 sitting, which I think is the end of July, for us to be able to express

17 our opinion regarding the admission of these exhibits. Regardless of

18 whether there will be any objections or not, the Defence will certainly

19 not recall the witnesses in question. So that would be our request.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon.

21 MR. HARMON: I agree we have had this discussion before. There

22 are large volumes of evidence that we will be tendering in this session

23 and in the next session. We have advised the Defence in writing, and I

24 have advised them orally, I've invited them to apply the Rules of this

25 Tribunal specifically to engage in reciprocal discovery. We have provided

Page 4203

1 to the Defence in a timely fashion all of the exhibits that we're

2 obligated to do so. I've informed them that there are a large number of

3 documents that we are going to maintain, and if they would like to see

4 them, they should ask to see them and we will engage in reciprocal

5 discovery. With all due respect to my colleague, if they find themselves

6 at any disadvantage it's of their own making.

7 We certainly believe that these exhibits should be admitted now.

8 The foundation for them has been laid. The witness who is here in respect

9 of each of these conversations and each of the notebooks which he's

10 identified has testified before this Chamber. If, at a later time, after

11 these documents have been admitted, the Defence wants to challenge these

12 documents on some other basis other than the basis which this witness has

13 testified about, they can do that in their case. But I believe at this

14 point in time the foundation for each of these documents has been laid,

15 and we would urge the Court to admit them into evidence at this point in

16 time.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Certainly, Mr. Harmon,

18 there's no question that you have communicated in a timely fashion and in

19 appropriate form, but in any event, Mr. Petrusic tells us that he needs to

20 review those documents, and to do so he needs a little more time. This

21 does not entail the possibility of recalling the witness.

22 So the question is whether or not you agree that we can discuss

23 the admission of these exhibits later, that is, to give some additional

24 time to Mr. Petrusic to review those exhibits and state his position

25 regarding their admission.

Page 4204

1 MR. HARMON: Our position is, Your Honour, that the appropriate

2 foundation has been laid now. If my colleague needs additional time to

3 review them, certainly he has them in his possession. I don't mean to in

4 any way obstruct the process, but I believe that the foundation for these

5 documents has been laid now. Mr. Petrusic, even if they're admitted, has

6 them in his possession and he can review them at a later time. But we

7 would, once again, renew our application for admission of the documents at

8 this time.

9 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Harmon, leaving for a moment the Rule on

10 reciprocal discovery aside, isn't it possible, with such a large volume of

11 material, for the Defence to get it a couple of days ahead of time or

12 something so that this -- because it is kind of hard to take three volumes

13 and run through them here. I know your argument, I understand it, on

14 reciprocal discovery but I'm not convinced that that opportunity rules out

15 their having some reasonable period to look through them.

16 MR. HARMON: Judge Wald, the documents that are before Your

17 Honours, there are a number of volumes of the notebooks that are -- they

18 have available to them before we're offering them into evidence. So in

19 part, the area that you've addressed is met.

20 In respect of the other concern, Your Honour, we have made our

21 position and repeated our position. Perhaps counsel and I can sit down

22 and reach an agreement, and we will attempt to do so, but I want to repeat

23 that I've advised the Defence on a number of occasions, both in writing

24 and orally, that there are large volumes of documents that are coming

25 their way and they have been fully apprised of that and have elected

Page 4205

1 consciously to not invoke the Rule which would permit them to see the

2 documents.

3 JUDGE WALD: Does that mean that your having informed them that a

4 large number is coming, they couldn't look at them a couple of days ahead

5 of time, or a day ahead of time, have access to them without the

6 reciprocal discovery Rule?

7 MR. HARMON: I think we can find an accommodation, Judge Wald. I

8 think we will; we just have to sit down and talk about it.

9 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.

10 MR. HARMON: Thank you.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The Chamber is granting the

13 necessary time to the Defence to review the documents. I think you asked

14 until the end of this month, of June. Therefore, you will have this

15 additional time to review the documents, and after that the Chamber will

16 make a determination regarding the admission of documents into evidence.

17 So now we're going to have -- Mr. Harmon.

18 MR. HARMON: I accept the Court's ruling, obviously, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As you know, you cannot accept.

20 MR. HARMON: But we accept the Court's ruling, Your Honour. I

21 only draw attention to the possibility that depending on whatever

22 questions the Defence poses at a later time, we may be required to call

23 back this witness or the successive witnesses that we have. So that

24 remains a possibility depending on the questions that are raised by the

25 Defence. I point that out. I hope it doesn't come to pass but it's a

Page 4206

1 possibility.

2 JUDGE RIAD: The Defence pointed out that he will not return to

3 that.

4 MR. HARMON: He may not need to, but depending on the questions he

5 raises, Judge Riad, we may wish to resolve the questions.

6 JUDGE WALD: I would hope that you will not see our ruling as

7 ruling out for future admissions your sitting down with Defence counsel

8 and see if they get it a day or two ahead of time that they won't --

9 because otherwise I can understand your problem of waiting until the end

10 of the month and then having a lot of things at the end of the month. I

11 think the better way would be, after this ruling, is if you give them time

12 so they can make their objections at the time of the witness.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] All right, then. The decision

14 has been made, and we are going to decide to have a half-hour break too.

15 --- Recess taken at 12.47 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 1.29 p.m.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. Can

19 you hear me?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You're going to read the solemn

22 declaration that the usher is going to give you, please.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


Page 4207

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated. Are you

3 comfortable, Witness?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The usher is going to show you a

6 piece of paper with your name written on it. Tell us, yes or no, is that

7 indeed your name?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So now you're going to answer

10 questions which Mr. Cayley is going to put to you, who is on your right.

11 Mr. Cayley, your witness.

12 MR. CAYLEY: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours, learned

13 Defence counsel.

14 Examined by Mr. Cayley:

15 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. I shall call you "Witness V" during your

16 evidence in order to protect your identity, and if you could remember not

17 to mention any names of your colleagues while you are testifying, in order

18 to ensure their security as well.

19 My first question: What nationality are you?

20 A. Bosniak.

21 Q. What is your faith?

22 A. Muslim.

23 Q. In what years did you do your regular military service in the

24 former Yugoslavia?

25 A. In 1991.

Page 4208

1 Q. In which unit of the JNA did you do your military service?

2 A. In the Anti-Aircraft Defence Regiment, I was a signalsman.

3 Q. Now, you were a signaller, a signalman. Can you explain to the

4 Judges what that involved and what type of skills you learned in the JNA

5 as a signaller?

6 A. They are the duties of a signalman. I was taught to use radio

7 equipment, on conduct in radio communications, and that sort of thing.

8 Q. At what level of headquarters did you work as a signaller?

9 A. At the level of regiment.

10 Q. Where was the communications equipment located that you worked on

11 within the regiment?

12 A. It was at Vozra.

13 Q. Did the regiment have a command vehicle in which communications

14 equipment was installed, and that's where you worked?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. Now, in order to move forward quickly in time, I think you left

17 the JNA in May of 1992, and you eventually returned to Tuzla, arriving in

18 Tuzla in August of 1992; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What unit of the Bosnian army did you join in March of 1993?

21 A. Electronic Reconnaissance and Anti-Electronic Warfare.

22 Q. Witness, just one point. You're using some technical terms, and

23 you speak very quickly. So if you could try and speak a little more

24 slowly, that would make the lives of the interpreters easier.

25 MR. CAYLEY: If Prosecutor's Exhibit 138 could be placed on the

Page 4209

1 ELMO, please.

2 Now, while the exhibit is being placed on the ELMO -- that's

3 actually the small map, the small version of the map that's here,

4 Mr. Usher. I have a spare. It's just easier for the witness if it's on

5 the ELMO rather than here.

6 Q. Witness, whereabouts was this unit located in March of 1993?

7 A. Majevica Mountain, the location called Okresanica.

8 Q. Could you just look at the map next to you and point to the Judges

9 the location of your unit when you joined it in March of 1993?

10 A. [Indicates]

11 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness is indicating

12 the green circle marked "Okresanica" on Prosecutor's Exhibit 138.

13 Q. Now, Witness, if you know, to whom was your unit directly

14 subordinated in the military chain of command?

15 A. To the command of the 2nd Corps.

16 Q. Can you explain to the Judges very briefly what your

17 responsibility was as a soldier within this unit at Okresanica?

18 A. I worked there as a radio surveyor using the equipment. My

19 responsibilities -- we would be divided into shifts of six hours each, and

20 that is it.

21 Q. Now, you've stated that your responsibility was as a radio

22 surveyor. Can you explain to the Judges the process that you went

23 through?

24 MR. CAYLEY: And if the witness could be shown Prosecutor's

25 Exhibit 298 and 299, that might assist him.

Page 4210

1 Q. So, Witness, if you could explain to the Judges, as you sat down

2 in front of your equipment, the process that you went through in order to

3 monitor radio transmissions.

4 A. Taking over duties when my shift started, we would receive

5 instructions from colleagues who worked in the previous shift on the

6 intensity of communications, the type of communications, everything that

7 had happened in the previous shift. We would take our seats at the

8 equipment, at the devices. We would monitor everything. And when a

9 conversation was aired, we had tape recorders for recording. We would

10 switch them on. We would intercept the conversation, then transcribe it,

11 and that was our duty.

12 MR. CAYLEY: If you could put 298 back on the --

13 Q. Witness, could you identify this equipment for the Judges?

14 A. It's amateur equipment, readjusted for the work we did. These are

15 amateur apparatuses.

16 Q. Is this the equipment which you listened to these radio

17 transmissions on?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. CAYLEY: If the next exhibit, which is 299, could be placed on

20 the ELMO.

21 Q. What is this, Witness?

22 A. It's an Uher tape recorder.

23 Q. How was it possible to record conversations from the receiver onto

24 the tape recorder?

25 A. They were connected with cables.

Page 4211

1 Q. Can you explain the process of transcription to the Judges, the

2 process that you went through when you transcribed a conversation from a

3 tape onto paper?

4 A. When a conversation has been recorded, the tape would be rewound

5 to the beginning of the conversation, and then that conversation would

6 begin to be transcribed.

7 Q. What would happen if there was anything you couldn't hear properly

8 on the tape?

9 A. If we couldn't hear something, then a couple of colleagues would

10 come and then we would try to decipher it together, and if we didn't

11 succeed, then we would put dots to indicate that that part of the

12 conversation was unintelligible.

13 Q. Was it possible to identify the participants in any conversation

14 that you heard?

15 A. Yes. Mostly they themselves would give their names. We

16 recognised some of them but it was not up to us to say who they were. In

17 most cases they identified themselves.

18 Q. Now, principally, whose military communications were you listening

19 to? Which party to the conflict were you listening to at Okresanica?

20 A. The army of Republika Srpska.

21 Q. Now, once you had transcribed a conversation from a tape yourself,

22 what happened to that written record that you had made?

23 A. It would be forwarded to the command, and therefore further

24 processing.

25 Q. In what form was it forwarded to the higher command, if you know?

Page 4212

1 A. In the form of typed reports on the computer. If something was

2 particularly important, then it would be reported immediately by

3 telephone.

4 Q. So you stated in your evidence that you would produce a written

5 form of the conversation, and you now state that a typed form of the

6 conversation went to the higher command. So another soldier was involved

7 in the process of making that typed report; is that correct?

8 A. Yes. But I would like to explain that when transcribing the

9 conversation, it was first in my handwriting and then he would copy it out

10 on the computer, this other soldier.

11 Q. Are you aware of what happened to the tapes that you used on the

12 tape machine?

13 A. Many tapes, because they were in short supply, were used several

14 times over, so I don't know what happened to them. I think they were all

15 taped over.

16 Q. The procedure that you've just explained to the Judges is the

17 procedure that you went through throughout your time of duty. You

18 repeated this process throughout your time of duty at Okresanica.

19 A. Yes. Yes, it is.

20 Q. Am I right in saying that you were working at Okresanica in July

21 of 1995?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. CAYLEY: For the Court's information, Your Honours, the name

24 of this witness appears on the list which the previous witness actually

25 placed before the Court. It's Exhibit 300 and he's on that exhibit. I

Page 4213

1 won't show it to the witness.

2 If Prosecutor's Exhibit 313C could be placed in front of the

3 witness.

4 Q. Witness, what I would like you to do now, and we've already

5 discussed this, is to identify conversations which you took down at or

6 about the period of July 1995.

7 MR. CAYLEY: If 313 could be placed in front of the witness.

8 Q. This is an extract from a notebook and we'll talk about the

9 notebooks in a moment. Do you recognise your handwriting on those two

10 pieces of paper?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is this a conversation that you took down?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. CAYLEY: If that could now be placed on the ELMO, and if the

15 witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 279.

16 Exhibit 279, Your Honours, is the complete notebook.

17 Q. Now, in fact, Prosecutor's Exhibit 279 is a book that was numbered

18 at the time, and if you look in the top right-hand corner, rather than me

19 using the Tribunal's evidence registration numbers which are long, if you

20 turn to page 31, and you can see the numbers.

21 MR. CAYLEY: If you can assist the witness.

22 Your Honours, the ERN number is 00778878; there is a "31" in the

23 top right-hand corner.

24 Q. Now, the conversation which you've just identified, can you see it

25 within this notebook?

Page 4214

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Just for confirmation, is that page 31, if you look at the top

3 right-hand corner of that piece of paper?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness has identified

6 that the previous conversation is contained within Prosecutor's Exhibit

7 279 at pages 00778877 and 00778878.

8 Q. Now, you stated earlier, Witness, that often the participants in

9 conversations identified themselves. Is this particular conversation an

10 example of that, or at least an indication of the unit that was involved

11 in this conversation?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you explain to the Judges why that's so.

14 A. Most probably they did not abide by radio communications rules, or

15 they didn't know that we were listening in.

16 Q. What is the identification within this particular intercept? What

17 is the word that identifies the unit?

18 A. It is the secret name Zlatar.

19 Q. Can you tell the Judges, if you can from memory, what the call

20 sign "Zlatar" means? What military unit does that indicate?

21 A. It is the command of the Drina Corps.

22 MR. CAYLEY: Your Honour, I anticipate actually reading this out

23 myself, if that is all right, rather than asking the interpreters to do

24 it. I'll read the official English translation, which is 313/A.

25 The particular intercept is titled "785.000 MHz, Channel 5, 1345

Page 4215

1 hours."

2 "Duty operations officer - Zlatar

3 /code-name/

4 Z: Hello.

5 O: Yes.

6 Z: This is Zlatar. Tell me, are there any

7 complications over there at the connection

8 with the 4th Battalion, with those boys?

9 O: /? They advanced about ten miles /crossed

10 out: 1447 hours, channel 5/

11 O: Hello. Nothing has been /illegible/

12 Z: Yes.

13 O: And /illegible/, whatever happened

14 happened.

15 Z: I have some information that there was

16 some /illegible/ between my /unit/ and you

17 guys.

18 O: Well, there was.

19 Z: Well, there was for example towards

20 Konjevic Polje and Kosprat /as written/ stop.

21 O: We have no information that it's like

22 that /as written/

23 Z: What have you done there?

24 O: Well, listen. It's been determined

25 here ... and still nothing happens to

Page 4216

1 anybody.

2 Z: ... the forward command post there.

3 O: Please, I can just put you through /? up

4 there/ to General Krstic. He's in charge of

5 this attack."

6 And then there is in brackets that the conversation breaks off.

7 Q. Now, Witness, towards the end of this conversation, there are a

8 number of dots that you referred to. Does that indicate words that

9 clearly couldn't be heard in the conversation?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, if you could go to the beginning of this journal, in fact the

12 second page, and there's a date. Do you see a date written there?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What is the date that's written there?

15 A. The 26th of June, 1995.

16 MR. CAYLEY: If you could go to the second-to-last page of this

17 journal, Mr. Usher. It's the page with the table full of numbers on it,

18 the numbers irrelevant, part of the notebook.

19 Q. There's a date at the top of that page, Witness, with "A/A"

20 written on it. What is the date and what does "A/A" mean?

21 A. It means "Ad Acta", end of diary, 24th of July, 1997.

22 Q. You said "the 24th of July". Can you look at the number again?

23 Is it a "4" or a "7"?

24 A. Sorry, 1995.

25 Q. Sorry, there's a misunderstanding. Is it a "4" or is it a "7"?

Page 4217

1 Is it "27" or "24"?

2 A. 24th of July, 1995.

3 Q. So would it be correct to say that the conversation that we've

4 just referred to was taken down at some time between the 26th of June,

5 1995, which is the date at the beginning of this book, and the date of the

6 last entry or the filing of this diary on the 27th of July, 1995, as far

7 as you know?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And can you be any more specific about the date in respect of this

10 particular intercept?

11 A. At the beginning of every day, the date would be indicated usually

12 when we started working, and so the intercepts for that day can be found.

13 Q. You and I have already looked in this booklet, and in this

14 particular case the date was not written at the beginning of the shift; is

15 that right?

16 A. Yes, correct.

17 Q. Is that exceptional, do you think? Was the normal process to

18 write the date at the beginning of every shift?

19 A. It was customary, but it happened that it was left out. That

20 depended on the circumstances.

21 MR. CAYLEY: If we could move to the next exhibit, which is 314,

22 and if the witness could be shown 314C. Mr. Usher, if you could put it in

23 front of the witness, to start with, before on the ELMO so he can look at

24 it.

25 Q. Can you look through that, Witness, and see if you recognise that

Page 4218

1 particular intercept?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is that your handwriting?

4 A. It is.

5 Q. Is this an intercept that you transcribed from a tape?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. CAYLEY: If now, Mr. Usher, we could go back to page 31 of

8 Exhibit 279.

9 Q. Can you look on that page and, I think, the following pages and

10 see whether or not the intercept that you've just looked at as an extract

11 is actually contained within the notebook. Look at all of the pages, just

12 to make sure. Is that the same conversation?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. CAYLEY: Now, Mr. President, I'm not going to read all of this

15 document. The witness has laid the foundation. But I am going to read,

16 from the English version, at the bottom of page 2, because that's actually

17 important for the next intercept, for the identification of the next

18 intercept.

19 So I'm reading now from the bottom of page 2, where it begins:

20 "C: Just a moment. Hello. My boys here

21 are looking for Zlatar Duty Operations

22 Officer. Is that you?

23 X: I'm not, but I'm here.

24 C: Could you call them?

25 X: Yes.

Page 4219

1 Z: Hello. This is Krstic.

2 X: This is Komjenovic. Go ahead, General,

3 Sir.

4 K: I asked to be put through to Krsmanovic.

5 Is he there?

6 X: /illegible/ Krsmanovic isn't here, but

7 I assume ... down you have to /call/ again.

8 K: Come on, put me through to him again,

9 Zlatar."

10 Q. Again, Witness, we won't belabour the point, but this is an

11 intercept that was taken from the same booklet as the last one, which has

12 a beginning date of 26 June 1995 and an end date of 24 July 1995; do you

13 agree with that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So would it be safe to say that you took this intercept down

16 sometime between the 26th of June, 1995 and the 24th of July, 1995?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. CAYLEY: Now, Mr. Usher, if we can move to the next exhibit,

19 which is 315.

20 Q. If you could read that through, Witness.

21 A. [As read] General Krstic/X/ -

22 Krsmanovic/Y/.

23 X: What's happened with the buses?

24 Y: ...

25 X: Start out immediately, and they should do

Page 4220

1 the same.

2 Y: /inaudible/.

3 X: Hey, do you understand "immediately"?

4 They should start immediately.

5 Y: /inaudible/.

6 X: Come on.

7 Y: Just a moment.

8 Q. Witness, how were you able to identify General Krstic as "X" and

9 Krsmanovic as "Y"?

10 A. Because both names begin with a "K" so this was to differentiate.

11 Q. The question that I have for you, and it refers to the previous

12 conversation which I read out, how were you able to identify "X" as

13 General Krstic and "Y" as Krsmanovic on the radio net?

14 A. From the previous conversation, the one that you read out. This

15 is just a continuation of that conversation.

16 Q. That was the conversation in which General Krstic identified

17 himself and specifically asked for Krsmanovic.

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. CAYLEY: If, Mr. Usher, you could go to page 34 in Exhibit

20 279. That, I think, actually demonstrates the point.

21 Q. Could you look at page 34 of Prosecutor's Exhibit 279, Witness.

22 The conversation in the top left-hand corner, is that the same

23 conversation that you have just read out?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. If you could go back to the previous page, page 33, which is the

Page 4221

1 previous conversation which I read out, in the bottom right-hand corner,

2 is that where General Krstic identifies himself and specifically asks for

3 Krsmanovic?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Again, and finally, this particular journal, this again is

6 contained in the journal which is dated 26 June, 1995 at its commencement

7 and 24th July 1995 at its filing date, would you agree with me that this

8 is another conversation that took place during those two dates, that you

9 took down during those two dates?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could now be shown Prosecutor's

12 Exhibit 316C.

13 Q. Could you look over that conversation and state whether or not you

14 took that conversation down. It's a number of pages so look at every

15 page.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, to demonstrate the point, if you could just look at 316/1B,

18 which is the final two pages of this document, it's the last two pages of

19 this exhibit, and if you could look at that and then place it on the

20 ELMO.

21 Is that the typed copy of your conversation which you referred to

22 earlier in your evidence?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. That's the copy that would have been sent to the higher command;

25 is that correct?

Page 4222

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. CAYLEY: If now, Mr. Usher, you could make available

3 Prosecutor's Exhibit 294, and I'm afraid I can't give you a page number

4 apart from 00782000. It's actually towards the end of this document.

5 It's the sixth page from the end. 2000, I think. Yes.

6 Q. Could you look at the conversation, the bottom right-hand corner

7 and over the next subsequent pages, and confirm that that is the intercept

8 which I've just shown you. Look at all of the pages.

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness has, in fact,

11 confirmed that Prosecutor's Exhibit 316C is contained, beginning at page

12 00782000, in Prosecutor's Exhibit 294.

13 Q. If, Witness -- the usher will need to help you here -- you could

14 go back to page 00781988, do you see any date on that page?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What is the date?

17 A. The 12th of July, 1995.

18 Q. Could you leaf through those pages, between the page with the date

19 on and the page where the intercept that you took down is found, and see

20 if you find any other date.

21 A. No, just that one date, and this conversation was recorded on the

22 same day, the 12th of July, 1995.

23 Q. If you could, just for completeness, go to the end of that book,

24 and could you state the date on which this book was finished?

25 A. The 17th of July, 1995.

Page 4223

1 Q. On what page is that date found?

2 A. The one but last page.

3 Q. Thank you, Witness.

4 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I'm not going to read this

5 conversation; it's a very long one. I just will lay foundation for that

6 with the witness.

7 Mr. Usher, just so we can prepare ourselves, if you could have

8 Prosecutor's Exhibit 283 at hand and also Prosecutor's Exhibit 317 and

9 318. We're nearly finished, Mr. Usher. This is a very short

10 conversation. If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 317C.

11 Q. If you could read that conversation over. You don't need to read

12 it for the benefit of the Judges, I shall read it, but is that your

13 handwriting?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is this a conversation which you wrote down? Is this an intercept

16 which you took down?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I think again, if you look at the next page, there is another

19 example of the report made to the higher command; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. That's Prosecutor's Exhibit 317/D. If that could be placed on the

22 ELMO. Now, Witness, do you see a date on this particular intercept?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you read the date out?

25 A. The 13th of July, 1995.

Page 4224

1 MR. CAYLEY: Now, Mr. Usher, if you could turn to page 49 of

2 Prosecutor's Exhibit 283.

3 Your Honours, that is, in fact, page 00804843 in the evidence

4 registration system, but there is a numbering system that was put there by

5 the operators, and it's page 49 in the top right-hand corner, with the

6 letters "WE" written underneath it.

7 Q. If you could look on that page and state whether or not you see

8 the conversation which you've just identified to the Judges as being one

9 of yours.

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness has confirmed

12 that the conversation in Exhibit 317 is contained in Prosecutor's Exhibit

13 283.

14 If, Mr. Usher, you could turn back to page 46 of that diary.

15 Q. Witness, is there a date on this particular page?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What is the date?

18 A. The 13th of July, 1995.

19 Q. Could you just go through the pages. Between the page with that

20 date and the page on which is written the relevant conversation, do you

21 see any other dates?

22 A. No. This conversation was on the same day, the 13th of July,

23 1995.

24 Q. Which, indeed, is the same date that's contained on the

25 typewritten copy of the same conversation, isn't it?

Page 4225

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Just to go to the end of this booklet, on the second to last page,

3 if you could just -- I think it's a school child's geometry book that was

4 used. What's the date that was written there?

5 A. The 17th of July, 1995.

6 Q. And is that the date when the book was closed or filed?

7 A. Yes, when it was closed.

8 MR. CAYLEY: I will just read this conversation into the

9 transcript, Mr. President. It has written at the top "785.000, Channel 5,

10 at 1355 hours".

11 "Participants: Colonel Milanovic - Palma

12 (duty officer)

13 M: Hello, Colonel Milanovic speaking.

14 P: Go ahead, Colonel.

15 M: Hey, listen, bud. Is your bulldozer

16 somewhere around there, not the bulldozer but

17 the one with the scoop, whatever you call

18 it?

19 P: Yes.

20 M: Well, he should report to Konjevic Polje,

21 to be there for us.

22 P: ...

23 M: And where on the ground is it, damn it?

24 P: ...

25 M: There is nothing before?

Page 4226

1 P: No.

2 M: Okay. Bye."

3 And then it's signed --- there's a box indicating where the

4 intercept was signed.

5 Now, the last one that we're interested in, if that could be shown

6 to the witness. It's Prosecutor's Exhibit 318.

7 Q. Witness, if you recall, do you recall the call sign Palma, who

8 that was within the VRS chain of command?

9 A. I think it was the Zvornik Brigade, if I remember correctly.

10 Q. If you could look at 318/C, do you recognise this document?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is this your handwriting?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And is this an intercept which you took down?

15 A. It is.

16 MR. CAYLEY: And if we could now turn finally, Mr. Usher, to

17 Exhibit 283 and page 50.

18 Q. Do you see the conversation?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And is that the same conversation that you've just identified to

21 the Judges?

22 A. It is.

23 MR. CAYLEY: So let the record show that the witness has confirmed

24 that the conversation contained in Prosecutor's Exhibit 318 is part of a

25 notebook, Prosecutor's Exhibit 283 at page 00804845.

Page 4227

1 Q. Now, Witness, if you could turn back to page 46, which is a page

2 that we looked at previously, what is the date at the top of that page?

3 A. The 13th of July, 1995.

4 Q. If you could go now through to the relevant conversation at page

5 50 of this booklet, and as you're going through, can you check if there

6 are any other dates written in there?

7 A. No, there aren't any. That was a conversation on the same day.

8 Q. Which day was that?

9 A. The 13th of July, 1995.

10 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Witness.

11 Actually, Mr. President, finally, I'll read this conversation into

12 the record.

13 The frequency is at the top, "785.000".

14 "Channel 11, 1730 hours.

15 Participants:

16 X: Is it possible for us to send about ten

17 buses from Bijeljina?

18 Y: Well, tell them right away to come.

19 There's about 6.000 of them now.

20 X: Off military age?

21 Y: Shut up, don't repeat.

22 X: Okay. Then I'll send them?

23 Y: Yeah, send them. I have three points,

24 fuck it. There's the one where you and I

25 were, then there's the one up there where the

Page 4228

1 checkpoint at the intersection is, and

2 there's the one halfway between the

3 checkpoint and the loading place.

4 X: So over there as well?

5 Y: At each point there are roughly 1.500 to

6 2.000.

7 X: And they're still transporting the women

8 and children?

9 Y: Well, there's still some left.

10 X: I thought it was /finished/. We were

11 there too, on the spot, there aren't that

12 many of them.

13 Y: Well, I was there just now.

14 X: So there are still some?

15 Y: Yeah, I just came /from there/.

16 X: Okay. Then I have to send them and have

17 them report there in Kasaba to the last. /as

18 printed/

19 Y: Have them report to the stadium.

20 X: Okay, we'll fill up over at Jovo's.

21 Y: Let them fill up over there at

22 Kundasevic's.

23 X: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Good.

24 Y: Okay. Have them start right away. I'll

25 see if I can get two more of those guys to

Page 4229

1 drive.

2 X: Give as many as you can. Over there I

3 figured out not to use our Deutz /truck/.

4 Y: Yeah, I know, I was with Radakovic.

5 X: Because there's really no /need/. They

6 can carry a small number, fuck it. There's

7 no need and we might need them to transport

8 units or something like that.

9 Y: Yeah, I was with Radakovic.

10 X: Is that job finished?

11 Y: Well, they're at the intersection,

12 gathering /them/.

13 X: Good. Have 'em drive them away and then

14 come back.

15 Y: Well, they'll have to drive until they

16 are all gone.

17 X: Good. Okay, I'll tell him.

18 Y: Okay, bye.

19 X: Bye."

20 And then there is a "/signed/".

21 Q. Now, Witness, you refer in this particular example to the

22 participants as "X" and "Y". Is this an example of where, as you said

23 earlier in your evidence, you couldn't identify the speakers in this

24 conversation?

25 A. In every situation, there were occasions where they didn't

Page 4230

1 introduce themselves and we were not able to put their names in, so we

2 just say -- put an "X" or a "Y". Whenever they didn't actually introduce

3 themselves, we would say "X" or "Y".

4 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I don't have any further questions for

5 the witness, so I can offer him for cross-examination.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

7 Mr. Cayley.

8 Perhaps we could start the cross-examination tomorrow, because

9 it's 2.30 now, and this will give you a bit of time to prepare the

10 cross-examination, Mr. Petrusic, for tomorrow.

11 Witness, we are going to continue tomorrow. We'll be here at

12 9.30, and you will have the opportunity of having a bit of a rest.

13 We adjourn until tomorrow.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

15 2.30 p.m., to be reconvened on

16 Tuesday, the 20th day of June, 2000,

17 at 9.30 a.m.









Page 4231













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and English transcripts.