Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4325

1 Wednesday, 21 June 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, ladies and

7 gentlemen. Good morning to the technical booth, to the interpreters, to

8 the legal assistants and court reporters, Madam Registrar, Mr. Harmon and

9 Mr. Cayley. Good morning, Mr. Petrusic and Mr. Visnjic, and good morning,

10 Mr. Krstic.

11 Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hear you very well.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You are now going to read the

14 solemn declaration that the usher is going to hand you, please.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

16 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated. Are you

20 sitting comfortably?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. You are now going to be

23 shown a piece of paper by the usher, and please say yes or no if it is

24 your name on the piece of paper.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 4326

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. You are now going to

2 be answering questions put to you by Mr. Cayley, who is the gentleman on

3 your right.

4 Mr. Cayley, your witness.

5 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

6 Honours. Good morning, learned Defence counsel.

7 Examined by Mr. Cayley:

8 Q. Witness, I will be calling you "Witness X" during your testimony.

9 This, as I explained to you, is to protect your identity.

10 A few preliminary questions for you. What is your nationality?

11 A. I am a Bosniak Muslim.

12 Q. Could you give the Court the dates of your national service in the

13 JNA?

14 A. I spent a year in the JNA between 1979 and 1980.

15 Q. Could you briefly give the Court details of your educational

16 background?

17 A. I started to be a technician, and I have spent my entire working

18 life working with technology as a technician.

19 Q. I want to move rapidly ahead in time to 1992. In that year, did

20 you join the Bosnian army?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. Let's now move forward to 1994, to August of 1994. What unit of

23 the Bosnian army did you join at that time?

24 A. In August 1994, I joined the unit for electronic surveillance and

25 anti-electronic warfare.

Page 4327

1 MR. CAYLEY: Could the usher please place on the ELMO, Madam

2 Registrar, Prosecutor's Exhibit 138.

3 Q. Witness, were you given any training prior to operational service

4 in this unit?

5 A. I received training after I joined that unit, that is to say, one

6 month later.

7 Q. How much training did you receive?

8 A. The training lasted a month, and I was taught the basics of radio

9 technology, because I knew nothing in the field. So they taught us the

10 basics of that job.

11 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Usher, if you could move that exhibit down

12 towards the witness about two or three centimetres. No, down. Yes,

13 sorry, towards me.

14 Q. Witness, could you point out on that exhibit, using the pointer,

15 and you need to do it on the copy on the ELMO, the location of this

16 anti-electronic unit?

17 A. This place here.

18 MR. CAYLEY: So let the record show that the witness is indicating

19 a green circle marked "Okresanica" on Prosecutor's Exhibit 138. Thank

20 you, sir.

21 Q. Now, you started work at the unit in August of 1994. Can you

22 explain to the Judges what the purpose of this unit was at Okresanica very

23 briefly, because the Judges have heard from a number of witnesses on the

24 same point.

25 A. I was part of a unit entrusted with the task of monitoring

Page 4328

1 conversations on military frequencies of the enemy Serb side, and we

2 monitored what we referred to as relay links. And if a conversation was

3 interesting to us, then the conversation was taped from the receiving

4 device onto a tape recorder, and then it was taken down on paper from the

5 tape recorder. This paper went to a department, which typed it out and

6 introduced it into the computer and sent it out to the command. So that

7 was my basic task.

8 Q. If you were unable to properly hear a conversation when listening

9 to a tape, what would you do?

10 A. There were many difficult situations, that is to say, where we

11 could hear the conversation but that there was a lot of interference and

12 it was partly audible. But where the conversation was clear, the request

13 was that anything we take down in written form should comply with the

14 original. So if everything was clear, we would write it down. If it was

15 inaudible or not clear, we would put three dots, and we did not write

16 anything because we weren't able to understand it sufficiently.

17 Q. If there was ever an occasion where something was reasonably

18 audible, did you and your colleagues listen to the tape together to decide

19 what the speaker was saying?

20 A. We tried to do that. We did our best to understand the incoming

21 information on the tape. There were different ways of doing this. Some

22 of my colleagues had a greater affinity for some of the speakers, others

23 knew the speakers less well. So we would help each other to record every

24 conversation authentically.

25 Q. Now, you say in your evidence that you would essentially write

Page 4329

1 down from the tape, from the recording on the tape into a written form,

2 and you then explained that that written report was typed and processed

3 and sent out. Could you tell Their Honours a little bit more about the

4 details of that procedure?

5 A. I should just like to correct you and say that the report wasn't

6 processed after it was typed. The report was typed by the soldier who was

7 responsible to me but officially in the command, and then would just send

8 on the report in the same state that I handed it to him. It was not up to

9 him to change anything. He didn't -- he wasn't allowed to change

10 anything, and sometimes we would read the report.

11 A report which would be sent on to the command would go to the

12 command itself and be processed there. I never worked in the command on

13 the processing of reports. And that was the procedure that we followed.

14 Q. To whom was your unit directly subordinated?

15 A. Our unit was within the composition of the command of the 2nd

16 Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17 Q. (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 A. (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 Q. Can you explain to the Judges very briefly the shift procedures

22 that were adopted within your unit?

23 A. Our shifts lasted -- that is to say, we had two groups, two groups

24 of soldiers. One worked on the device and the others were resting, and we

25 would take turns. We would hand over our duty to each other. And the

Page 4330

1 commanders of the platoons or the companies would be present when the

2 shifts replaced each other. This was an opportunity for the soldiers to

3 become acquainted with their tasks and assignments for the following shift

4 and receive suggestions from their colleagues working on the previous

5 shift.

6 As this also meant taking over the devices when the shifts

7 changed, (redacted)

8 (redacted) for the time spent in the location in order to perform all the

9 functions; that is to say, we had to cook for ourselves, we had to see to

10 hygiene and things of that kind as well, (redacted).

11 Q. How long were the shift periods?

12 A. The shifts -- the shortest shifts were seven days. Sometimes they

13 would last 15 or more days depending on the circumstances. Sometimes we

14 would all be working together; that is to say, there would be no

15 replacement of shifts but the shifts would work together. Then we would

16 have a rest period after that.

17 Q. Whilst you were on shift, for how many hours did you work in a

18 day? Were there shifts within the

19 7 or 14-day shifts?

20 A. Usually we would have two groups and we would expand these groups,

21 but there were never less people in the groups, there could only be more,

22 and our command always requested as many people as possible in the room,

23 the actual room where we did our work. (redacted)

24 and work there and align this with their physical capabilities. Sometimes

25 there were too few of us and too many obligations and responsibilities, so

Page 4331

1 we were very taxed.

2 Q. So there were occasions when within the 7 or 14-day period you

3 were unable to take any breaks?

4 A. Yes, there were occasions like that, especially for the

5 responsible individuals, those who led the shift, because they were, in

6 part, responsible for the order and running of the work and to see that

7 the plan set by the command was put into practice.

8 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibits

9 298 and 299, please, and if

10 300 could be prepared, which is a sealed exhibit.

11 Q. Witness, do you recognise this photograph?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. What is this?

14 A. Those are two devices. One device was intended for the monitoring

15 of radio relay connections, and it is the AR800, and the second device was

16 for RRU1 for relay stations.

17 Q. Could you point to the device and name it? Because I'm not

18 familiar with the devices myself. The device on the left of the

19 photograph on Prosecutor's Exhibit 298, what is that device?

20 A. The device on the left-hand side is an amateur device for short

21 wave radio communication, and it has an addition which adapts it for radio

22 relay, and it is the Kenwood 4500 device. We had two of these. So this

23 is the device on the left-hand side.

24 Q. And the device on the right-hand side of this photograph?

25 A. The device on the right-hand side of the photograph is the ICR100

Page 4332

1 device with a range from 0 to 1,000 megahertz, and it is for monitoring

2 radio relay connections of the RRU1 enemy lines.

3 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show the witness is pointing on the

4 right-hand side to the larger black box.

5 Q. Did you use these pieces of equipment while you served in the

6 unit?

7 A. Yes, we did. We used these pieces of equipment and other similar

8 equipment.

9 MR. CAYLEY: And if 299 could be placed on the ELMO, please.

10 Q. And very briefly, Witness, what is this photograph?

11 A. That is a tape recorder of the Uher type. It is intended for

12 recording interesting conversations, that is to say, conversations that

13 could be heard on the receiver devices.

14 Q. And how was it connected to the receiver?

15 A. The Uher tape recorder is connected all the time to the receiver,

16 one of the two receivers that you showed on the previous photograph, and

17 it is switched on manually by the button. As soon as an interesting

18 conversation comes up, it is switched on. I switch it on, as the

19 operator.

20 MR. CAYLEY: If now the witness could be given Prosecutor's

21 Exhibit 300, and do not place this on the ELMO, please, Mr. Usher.

22 Q. Now, Witness, could you look at the second name on that list and

23 confirm or otherwise whether that is you?

24 A. Yes, that is my name and surname.

25 MR. CAYLEY: And that, Your Honours, is Prosecutor's Exhibit 300,

Page 4333

1 which was introduced by the first of the series of witnesses, listing the

2 people who worked at Okresanica in July and August of 1995.

3 Q. Witness, finally on the process itself, how did you identify the

4 speakers within any conversation that you listened to and that you

5 recorded onto the tape?

6 A. There were many problems in identifying the speaker, but the

7 command's request was reliable information. Very often the speakers, in

8 the conversation or during the conversation itself, they would mention

9 their own names, so that was a way that we heard who the speakers were.

10 Second, having done this work for a long time, we knew the participants in

11 the conversations very well without them having to introduce themselves.

12 If we did not know who the participants in the conversation were, we would

13 place "X" or "Y", the letters "X" or "Y".

14 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

16 MR. CAYLEY: I'm sorry. If the witness could now be shown

17 Prosecutor's Exhibit 319, and that's specifically 319C. And I would

18 suggest that if we put anything on the ELMO, it is the English version,

19 since the Bosnian written version has the signature of the witness. If

20 you could give it to the witness, please, Mr. Usher.

21 Madam Registrar, just so that we're in a position to deal with

22 this, we need all of the notebooks as well, which is 279, 284, 290, and

23 282.

24 Q. Witness, do you recognise 319C?

25 A. I recognise it. I recognise the first paper that has been handed

Page 4334

1 to me. That is some information that I heard and recorded and made a note

2 of and sent to the command.

3 Q. Is that your handwriting?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And I think on the last page of this four-page document, there is,

6 in fact, a typed copy of the conversation.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is this an example of the process that was carried out at the unit

9 of one of the soldiers typing into the computer the written version for

10 transmission up the chain of command?

11 A. That's right, yes.

12 MR. CAYLEY: Now, if the witness could be shown Prosecutor's

13 Exhibit 279.

14 Q. Now, previously, Witness, I've shown you some notebooks, and I

15 just wish you to confirm or otherwise -- I will direct the usher to the

16 page so that you don't have to go through the whole file -- whether or not

17 the report that you've just read out is contained within that particular

18 notebook.

19 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Usher, if you could assist the witness, please,

20 it's Prosecutor's Exhibit 279 and the page number in the top right-hand

21 corner is 45. And, Your Honours, the registration number from the

22 Evidence Unit, the last four digits, which are the only four you need, are

23 8906. I think it's the previous exhibit, Mr. Usher. It's the first

24 exhibit in this book.

25 Mr. President, may I approach the witness, because I think it will

Page 4335

1 probably facilitate matters. Thank you.

2 Q. Now, Witness, if you could look at the bottom right-hand page

3 that's in front of you at the moment, do you see the conversation at the

4 bottom of that page which starts: "255.850, 0834", and then the word

5 "Urgent" is mentioned. Is that the same conversation that you've just

6 identified in Prosecutor's Exhibit 319 as being a conversation that you

7 took down?

8 A. Yes, it is the same conversation.

9 Q. Is that your signature at the bottom right-hand corner of the

10 page?

11 A. Yes. That was how I marked my conversations.

12 MR. CAYLEY: I will read this into the record,

13 Mr. President. Fortunately, it's a very brief conversation.

14 And, Mr. Registrar, the -- if you could leave 279 with the

15 witness, but if I could prepare you for the next one whilst we're doing

16 this, which is Prosecutor's Exhibit 284, which is contained in the same

17 volume. So if you wait one moment I will assist if there are any

18 problems, but let me read this. It starts with the frequency:

19 "255.850. 0834 hours. Urgent."

20 The next line is:

21 "X: Semso Muminovic is asking for

22 V. Pandurevic to call him on number

23 144 985."

24 Q. Now, Witness, in this particular example you've use the symbol

25 "X". Is this an example of where you're unable to identify one of the

Page 4336

1 participants in the conversation?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, in our previous discussions, you had indicated to me that so

4 much time had passed that you were unable to accurately date this

5 conversation. But if you could go to the first -- correction. If you

6 could go to the second and third page of this document. So back to the

7 beginning of the document.

8 MR. CAYLEY: Now, if we could go back, I think, one more page,

9 Mr. Usher, to the front.

10 Q. If you turn to the next page, which is the second page of the

11 document, 8816. Is there a date on that page, Witness?

12 A. Yes, on that page there is a date.

13 Q. What is the date?

14 A. The date is the 26th of June, 1995.

15 Q. Could you turn to the next page? There is a date there. That is

16 page 3 of this document, 8818. What date is on that page?

17 A. On this page the date is the 23rd of June, 1995.

18 Q. What is indicated by the date of 26th June 1995 on the previous

19 page, if you know?

20 A. The date, the 26th of June, the date at the beginning of the

21 notebook, marks the date when the notebook started to be used.

22 Q. What does the date on the next page, the

23 23rd of June, 1995, what does that indicate?

24 A. That indicates when the command which gave us the notebooks

25 registered that notebook in its registry book.

Page 4337

1 Q. Now, asking you to make no more comment than this: Would it be

2 safe to say that the conversation that you've identified in this notebook

3 was taken down sometime after the 26th of June, 1995?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And if you could go to the penultimate page of this document, the

6 last but one.

7 MR. CAYLEY: The last but one page, so that page, Mr. Usher.

8 Thank you.

9 Q. There is a date at the top of this page. It has "A/A", which I

10 think is a Latin abbreviation. What is the date on that page?

11 A. The date is the 24th of July, 1995.

12 Q. What does "A/A" stand for?

13 A. It is customary for us to indicate in that way the date when the

14 notebook is placed in the archives.

15 Q. So if the notebook was placed in the archives on the 24th of July,

16 1995, it's safe to say that the conversation that you took down was taken

17 down sometime before that date?

18 A. Yes. When the notebook is filled in, it would remain in the

19 building until the next shift, and when the next shift came, the command

20 would take over the notebooks and place them in the archives.

21 Q. When you use the word "filled in," just to make it absolutely

22 clear for the record, you mean when the notebook was entirely full? When

23 there was no more space left in it to write any more conversations, it

24 would be filed in the archive?

25 A. Yes, that's right. The whole notebook had to be full for it to be

Page 4338

1 able to be filed.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could now be given Prosecutor's

4 Exhibit 320.

5 Q. Just finally on Prosecutor's Exhibit 319, how did you know that

6 the other speaker was Jevdjevic, if you can recall?

7 A. May I correct you? Jevdjevic, yes. I assume that talking to the

8 signalman who established the link, the connection, heard that somebody

9 was looking for something in this particular case. If I had recognised

10 the voice, I would have given the name, but I assumed this conversation

11 was preceded by the signalman of the enemy army establishing

12 communication.

13 Q. And that is missed from the written transcript, because by the

14 time you'd pressed the play button on the tape recorder that part of the

15 conversation had passed?

16 A. There were such cases, but the procedure regarding the

17 establishment of the conversation was not recorded as it was always the

18 same.

19 Q. Am I right in saying that as you heard the beginning of the

20 conversation, you would write down the names of the participants on a

21 scrap of paper? Was that your policy, if you heard the speakers

22 identified?

23 A. Yes. It was the best situation if you could recognise the

24 speakers.

25 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could now be shown Prosecutor's

Page 4339

1 Exhibit 320/1C, which is the fifth page. It's where you see handwriting,

2 Mr. Usher.

3 Q. Do you recognise the handwriting in this, Witness?

4 A. Yes. That is my handwriting.

5 Q. And this is an intercept which you took down?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. CAYLEY: If now the witness could be shown Prosecutor's

8 Exhibit 284, and this version that he's just identified can be placed on

9 the ELMO, because there's no signature. For, Mr. Usher, Prosecutor's

10 Exhibit 284, you need to go to page 33, the last two digits of the

11 seven-digit number -- the eight-digit number, if you go to page 33. So

12 that, Your Honours, in that Exhibit 284 is page 00800633. In fact, you

13 can use just the last three digits, because the others are the same

14 throughout.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps the usher should be told

16 that it is separator number 6 in the binder.

17 MR. CAYLEY: You're absolutely right, Mr. President. That's

18 actually very helpful. The tab number is 6. If you hand it to me, I

19 can -- page 633. If you hand it to me, I can find it very quickly.

20 Mr. Usher, if you could hand the binder to the witness. You can place the

21 other copy which he's just looked at, the extract, on the ELMO.

22 Q. If you look, Witness, at the right-hand column on page 633, is

23 that the same conversation that you've just identified?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. CAYLEY: And, Your Honours, I will just confirm that the

Page 4340

1 witness has identified that the extract, Prosecutor's Exhibit 319, is

2 contained in the notebook, Prosecutor's Exhibit 279, and I will just read

3 that into the record. I'm sorry, I've just been corrected. It's Exhibit

4 320 that the intercept -- Prosecutor's Exhibit 320 is contained in

5 Prosecutor's Exhibit 284. I will read it as follows:

6 "Lieutenant Colonel Popovic asked to be

7 connected with General Krstic at Zlatar /code

8 name/ and as he was not there, he was asked

9 to be connected with the OC, Operations

10 Centre.

11 P: Hello, Lieutenant Colonel Popovic

12 speaking.

13 R: Rasic here, Can I help you?

14 P: Rale!

15 R: Yes?

16 P: I was just up there.

17 R: Yes.

18 P: I was with the boss personally.

19 R: Yes.

20 P: Here where I am ... you know where I am?

21 R: I know.

22 P: Well, you got his interim report.

23 R: All of it.

24 P: It's just like he wrote it ... I was

25 there on the spot and was convinced he

Page 4341

1 had received some numbers ... well, that's

2 not even important ... I'll come there

3 tomorrow, so tell the General ... I've

4 finished the job.

5 R: You finished?

6 P: I finished everything.

7 R: Good.

8 P: I'll come there tomorrow when I'm sure

9 that that's all been taken care of, you

10 know.

11 R: Good.

12 P: After I bring a transport from there.

13 R: Right.

14 P: Well, in general, there weren't any major

15 problems. But up there, there were horrible

16 problems and that thing the commander sent,

17 it was just the right thing.

18 R: Good.

19 P: Just the thing ... horrible ... it was

20 horrible.

21 R: Listen Vujadin.

22 P: What?

23 R: Tell me, did anything arrive there now

24 from Vidoje Blagojevic?

25 P: From Vidoje?

Page 4342

1 R: Today.

2 P: Yes ... You mean manpower?

3 R: Yes, yes ... did anything arrive?

4 Something was supposed to arrive?

5 P: Yes, it arrived ... it's up there ...

6 it's up there but it didn't arrive on time

7 and it wasn't brought in on time. And the

8 others who arrived, did arrive, but they were

9 late and so they weren't brought in on time,

10 and that's why the commander who was here had

11 problems.

12 R: When exactly did Blagojevic's men

13 arrive?

14 P: Fuck it, I don't know exactly, now I

15 can't ...

16 R: I know ... the duty officer /as printed/.

17 P: Maybe the duty officer ... here's the

18 duty officer.

19 R: Let me talk to him.

20 P: Okay.

21 D: Hello.

22 R: Hello!

23 D: Yes, go ahead?

24 R: When did Blagojevic's men arrive?

25 D: From Badem /code name/?

Page 4343

1 R: Yes ... when did they arrive and how many

2 of them arrived?

3 D: I'll call you right back.

4 R: Okay, find out exactly and call me

5 back.

6 D: I will."

7 Q. Now, Witness, this is an example of where the participants in the

8 conversation introduce themselves on the radio, isn't it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, I know it's been a long time and I can assist you here

11 because we have an exhibit, but do you recall what Zlatar was the code

12 name for now?

13 A. The code name Zlatar, as far as I know, stood for the command of

14 the Drina Corps in Vlasenica.

15 Q. Do you remember what the code name Badem stood for?

16 A. The code name Badem was linked to Bratunac, but I don't know the

17 level of the unit.

18 MR. CAYLEY: If now we could move to the next exhibit, which is

19 321. And just to prepare you, Mr. Usher, we're in the same main diary, so

20 it's tab 6, and the page number is 36. So you only need to, in fact, turn

21 one, two pages and you're there. Don't place this on the ELMO because

22 there's a signature on it. It's, again, a very short intercept.

23 Q. Do you recognise the handwriting on Prosecutor's Exhibit 321/1C,

24 Witness?

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Wait a moment, please. I think

Page 4344

1 there is a problem with the French transcript. The French court reporter

2 is not managing to hear the interpretation.

3 I think the registrar is bringing us a solution.

4 [The registrar and the Trial Chamber

5 confer]

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think we're ready now and we

7 can continue.

8 Please, Mr. Cayley, go ahead.

9 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Q. So just to confirm with you, Witness, 321/1C, that's you're

11 handwriting; correct?

12 A. Yes, that is my handwriting.

13 Q. And that is an intercept which you took down?

14 A. It is.

15 Q. I think you have next to you Prosecutor's Exhibit 284, at page

16 00800636. Do you see that conversation on that page, bottom left-hand

17 corner?

18 A. Yes, I do. It is the same conversation.

19 MR. CAYLEY: So just to confirm for the record that the witness

20 has confirmed that Prosecutor's Exhibit 321/1C is an extract from

21 Prosecutor's

22 Exhibit 284.

23 Q. Now, Witness, if you could go to the second page of that

24 particular journal.

25 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Usher, if you could help him. If you would go

Page 4345

1 back to the second page. Back to the beginning of the journal and then

2 the second page.

3 Q. Now, on this journal there is a date. What is the date on the

4 second page of this journal?

5 A. On the second page of this journal the date is the 14th of July,

6 1995.

7 Q. And you've previously told Their Honours that this is the date on

8 which the first entry was entered into the notebook; is that correct?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. So is it correct to say that the conversation which you've

11 identified in this notebook is a conversation that was taken down sometime

12 after the 14th of July, 1995?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. If I could just briefly read the English version, which is 321/2A

15 into the record. It's a very short conversation.

16 "2153 hours. CH 3.

17 Participants: Palma duty officer - Cerovic.

18 D: It's not closed yet but it's under

19 control.

20 C: OK.

21 D: Bye."

22 Witness, do you recall now, after all this time, what the call

23 sign for Palma was?

24 A. The Palma code sign was linked to the location of Zvornik. I

25 assume the Zvornik Brigade.

Page 4346

1 MR. CAYLEY: If we could now move to the next exhibit which is

2 322, and the linked notebook with this is 290. The tab number, Mr. Usher,

3 is 12.

4 Q. Now, Witness, if you turn to 322/1C, which is the third sheet on

5 the extract. Do you have that in front of you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is that your handwriting?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. Is that a conversation which you took down?

10 A. It is.

11 MR. CAYLEY: Now, Mr. Usher, you if you could turn to page 1469.

12 And I can help you here. It's one, two, three, four, five, six, seven

13 pages from the beginning, 69.

14 Q. Witness, if you look on the left-hand page. Do you see the

15 conversation that you've just stated was your conversation that you took

16 down, bottom left-hand page of 1468?

17 A. Yes, that is the conversation.

18 MR. CAYLEY: So for the purposes of the record, the witness has

19 confirmed that Prosecutor's Exhibit 322/1C is contained in the notebook

20 marked Prosecutor's Exhibit 290 at page 00801468.

21 Q. Now, Witness, if you go to the beginning of this notebook, there

22 is a date on the front of this notebook. What date is written? Can you

23 read it?

24 A. Yes. That is the date. It is the 16th of July, 1995.

25 Q. Would it be correct to say that the conversation which you've just

Page 4347

1 identified as your own is one that was taken down on or after the 16th of

2 July, 1995?

3 A. That conversation should have been on the 16th or immediately

4 after the 16th.

5 Q. Thank you, Witness. Again I will read it into the transcript.

6 It's a fairly brief conversation.

7 "Frequency 255.850 MHz.

8 1622 hours.

9 Popovic -- Y (inaudible).

10 P: Hello, it's Popovic ... boss ...

11 Everything's OK, that job is done ...

12 everything's OK ... everything's been brought

13 to an end, no problems ... I'm here at the

14 place ... I'm here at the place where I was

15 before, you know ... I'm at the base ...

16 at the base, the base. Can I just take a

17 little break, take a little break, take a

18 shower, and then I'll think again later ...

19 basically, that all gets an A ... an A ...

20 the grade is an A, everything's okay ...

21 that's it, bye, take care. "

22 Then at the end of the conversation there is a note:

23 "French is heard in the background."

24 Now, you made this note at the end. Do you remember making the

25 note about hearing the French language in the background?

Page 4348

1 A. In the background you could hear the French language, yes.

2 MR. CAYLEY: If we could move to the next one, which is 323, and

3 it's the same main journal,

4 Mr. Usher, so we can stay with that one. And if you could look at the

5 323/1C. There's two pages. It's been photocopied onto two pages.

6 Q. Do you recognise that conversation?

7 A. That is the conversation that I made a note of.

8 MR. CAYLEY: And if we could go to page 1477, tab 12 of

9 Prosecutor's Exhibit 290. And you should look at that page and, indeed,

10 the next page, Witness.

11 Q. Is that the same conversation?

12 A. That is the same conversation, yes.

13 MR. CAYLEY: So let the record show that the witness has confirmed

14 that the extract, Prosecutor's Exhibit 323/1C, is contained at tab 12,

15 Prosecutor's Exhibit 290, on pages 00801477 and 00801478 to 79.

16 Q. Now, again without repeating the process so we try and save some

17 time, this booklet was commenced on the 16th of July, 1995, so would it be

18 correct to say that the conversation that you've identified was taken down

19 on or after the 16th of July, 1995?

20 A. That's right, yes.

21 Q. And I think if you go to the end of this conversation, you see a

22 typed version of the original, again to demonstrate what you've said

23 previously about the typing process. Is that the typed transmission copy?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 MR. CAYLEY: I'll read this into the record. This is Prosecutor's

Page 4349

1 Exhibit 323/1A.

2 "1458 hours, channel 3. X - Y.

3 X: On the last point ... in the last

4 sentence of point 2.

5 Y: Wait till I see ... on the last point.

6 X: No, in the last point of point 2.

7 Y: Okay.

8 X: It says: and line 8, Petkovci - Balkovica

9 - Memici.

10 Y: Yes?

11 X: What's to the right of Petkovci?

12 Y: Petkovci?

13 X: Petkovci.

14 Y: Yes, yes.

15 X: Well, Petkovci ... the front line is not

16 in Petkovci.

17 Y: Well, then, in front of Petkovci.

18 X: Well, give it to me from the map, take it

19 off, God damn it.

20 Y: To tell you the truth, we don't have a

21 map here and this interim report was typed by

22 somebody else.

23 X: Listen, listen. Stay on the line.

24 Y: It says Petkovci, front line Petkovci.

25 X: We need to find a point at the front

Page 4350

1 /line/ to put.

2 Y: But it's the same,... it's the same line

3 as before, it didn't move back at all.

4 X: Okay, I know.

5 Y: Yes, yes.

6 X: Hello!

7 Y: Yes, I hear you, I hear you.

8 X: I can't say on the Petkovci front line if

9 the front line is not in Petkovci, you

10 understand? The front line is not there.

11 Y: We use these features /? as reference

12 points/, which villages are near these ...

13 X: Stay on the line. Can we choose a

14 village (a small one?)?

15 Y: Will Androvici do?

16 X: That's not good... That's our area which

17 is being combed and searched... Well, you

18 understand what I'm asking you?

19 Y: You mean across from Petkovci.

20 X: Okay, /?from now on/ in Petkovci.

21 Y: Yes, Petkovci.

22 X: Good.

23 Y: Well, it does say Petkovci here, so it

24 must have been a mistake on the teleprinter.

25 X: Good, good. That's it.

Page 4351

1 Y: Good."

2 If we could move to number 6 -- there's only seven of these

3 intercepts, so it's not too much longer -- which is Prosecutor's Exhibit

4 324. So if the witness could be shown 324/1C. And, Mr. Usher, to help

5 you, this is from notebook Prosecutor's Exhibit 284, which is one that

6 we've used already.

7 There is logic, Your Honour, to going backwards and forwards like

8 this. I know it's not easy for the usher, but it will become clear.

9 That's tab 6, and in that we need page 52. While you're looking

10 for that, Mr. Usher:

11 Q. Witness, if you could look at the extract in front of you, is that

12 your handwriting?

13 A. It is.

14 Q. And that is an intercept which you took down?

15 A. That's right.

16 MR. CAYLEY: For the record, that's Prosecutor's Exhibit 324/1C.

17 Now, in Prosecutor's Exhibit 284, Your Honours, we are going to go

18 to page 652. That's the last three digits of the evidence registration

19 number.

20 Q. Witness, do you have that page available in front of you?

21 A. Yes, it's here.

22 Q. And can you also look at the next page too, because I think the

23 conversation ends on the next page. Is that the same conversation that

24 you've just identified?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 4352

1 MR. CAYLEY: So for the purposes of the record, the witness has

2 identified that Prosecutor's Exhibit 324/1C is an extract from the

3 notebook which is Prosecutor's Exhibit 284 at pages 00800652 through to

4 00800654.

5 Q. Now, Witness, if you would go to the second page of this document,

6 and it's one that I know we've already looked at, so back to the beginning

7 of the whole notebook. If you look on the second page, you've already

8 explained to Their Honours that this date is the date when the first

9 conversation was taken down.

10 Is it correct to say that the conversation which you've just

11 identified in this book took place at some time on or after the 14th of

12 July, 1995?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. CAYLEY: And I will just read this one into the record. It's

15 actually quite a long one, but nevertheless I'll read it.

16 "Channel 3 at 0812 hours.

17 Colonel Cerovic - Vinko.

18 C: Colonel Cerovic wants to talk to him.

19 : Okay.

20 C: Hello.

21 V: Yes.

22 C: Good morning, Vinko.

23 V: Good morning.

24 C: How are you?

25 V: Well, I'm running around since last

Page 4353

1 night. We (went in?) again.

2 C: Where?

3 V: They are up there at Crni Vrh, over there

4 at Potocani, Planinci, the part towards

5 Baljkovica.

6 C: Uh-huh. You mean the ones who are coming

7 out on this side. Is that right?

8 V: Yes, from there and all of them are

9 rushing over here to us.

10 C: You rushed off first. Rushed off.

11 V: I really did, quite right. Well,

12 yesterday we wiped out a bit more than 20 of

13 them.

14 C: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

15 V: And this morning we started chasing about

16 150 of them over there. They are in some

17 kind of encirclement.

18 C: And in which area are they surrounded?

19 V: That's the Planinci-Baljkovica area.

20 C: That means in the areas of Planinci and

21 Baljkovica.

22 V: Yes.

23 C: You are good ... Vinko.

24 V: Yes.

25 C: What's your plan for tomorrow for shift

Page 4354

1 replacement at Trnovo.

2 V: I don't have a shift for Trnovo.

3 C: Well, I know that was the order, that

4 you've sent a report, however, that Eskic has

5 just called me from up there and said that he

6 was yesterday somewhere at your place and

7 that he heard you are doing a shift

8 rotation.

9 V: No. I did a rotation of shift at

10 Nisici.

11 C: I'm telling you, the report he sent -

12 there's not way it can be done ... That's

13 Krstic's order, there are no shift rotations

14 until further notice.

15 V: It would be the best if we transfer our

16 complete Corps to the SRK /Sarajevo-Romanija

17 Corps/.

18 C: Yeah, that would be best.

19 V: No, seriously, I've sent you a report

20 yesterday. You could see what kind of losses

21 we sustained.

22 C: Yes, and I presented that to Krstic and

23 wrote him special /report/ based on your

24 interim and daily reports.

25 V: Yes, that's correct.

Page 4355

1 C: To let him know so he can tell the No. 1

2 chief up there. I said that, currently, in

3 view of these losses, we can't use the unit

4 outside its area of responsibility.

5 V: Then he can take the brigade off the list

6 of the living.

7 C: Well, if we finish this up there at

8 (Zepa?)

9 V: Yes?

10 C: Then we will, there is Blagoje and the

11 others, and then we'll ...

12 V: Then we can.

13 C: Engage.

14 V: Of course.

15 C: Okay then. Is there anything else new

16 with you?

17 V: Well, nothing special. We are all

18 engaged still, because the battalion, every

19 single one of us is busy.

20 C: Good ... please have your duty officer as

21 usual, because he left. Strbac was here just

22 now.

23 V: Yes.

24 C: He is not interested and he doesn't want

25 to do anything while he is duty officer.

Page 4356

1 V: He is very much interested in all of

2 this.

3 C: I got the same impression.

4 V: He always knows. Two days ago I was in

5 the field, to tell the truth, I was flailing

6 around left and right, but he always had a

7 fair idea of where I was.

8 C: I can't get in touch with the commander.

9 For God's sake man, what do you mean you

10 can't? I told him, get a car and go and look

11 for the commander.

12 V: He couldn't be bothered to live, let

13 alone do anything.

14 C: Okay, Vinko. Good luck and stay in

15 touch.

16 V: Thank you. Take care.

17 C: And if you need something, give us a call

18 here and we'll see what we can do.

19 V: Roger.

20 C: Bye.

21 V: Take care."

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Cayley, I understand.

23 Perhaps we could go on and complete this, because I think it's the

24 cross-examination afterwards, is it not? So I think that the next exhibit

25 is shorter. What do you think, Mr. Cayley?

Page 4357

1 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, it is -- the time is being consumed by

2 the reading process, and this is actually a very short exhibit. It will

3 probably take me 30 seconds to read it. So I'll just establish the

4 foundation with the witness.

5 Mr. Usher, we need Prosecutor's Exhibit 325 and 282. 282 is a

6 notebook and is at tab 4, so in the same booklet that we have. So if 325

7 could be placed in front of the witness.

8 Q. Witness, if you go to the third page of that exhibit.

9 MR. CAYLEY: So tab 4, Mr. Usher. And you want page 53 -- page

10 753. While you're looking for that ...

11 Q. Witness, Prosecutor's Exhibit 325/C, is that your handwriting?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. And that's an intercept which you took down?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. CAYLEY: Now, if page 753 could be placed in front of the

16 witness. Your Honours, this again, it's Prosecutor's Exhibit 282, and the

17 last three digits of the evidence registration number is 753.

18 Q. Witness, is that the same conversation?

19 A. Yes, it is.

20 MR. CAYLEY: So let the record show that the witness has

21 identified that Prosecutor's Exhibit 325/C is an extract from the notebook

22 which is Prosecutor's Exhibit 282 at page 00781753.

23 Q. Now, Witness, if you go to the third page of this notebook, so

24 back to the beginning, there's a date on the top left-hand corner of that

25 page. What is the date?

Page 4358

1 A. Date is 17th of July, 1995.

2 Q. This is on page 00781675. You've previously indicated that that's

3 the date that the command registered the notebook; is that correct?

4 A. This date was registered by the command in its register, and at

5 the beginning of the notebook is the date when the notebook began to be

6 used.

7 Q. If you look on this one, in fact, Witness, there is no date of

8 when the commencement -- when the notebook commenced to be used, on the

9 previous page. The 17th of July is the only date we have on this one.

10 Using the date of the registration, would it be correct to say

11 that this conversation was taken down on or after the 17th of July, 1995?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I'll read this into the record. It shouldn't take too long.

14 "Channel 5. 2158 hours.

15 Lieutenant Colonel Popovic- Zlatar/code

16 name/OC/operation centre/duty officer

17 Delgadasi/as written/

18 Lieutenant Colonel Popovic was looking for

19 General Krstic, but the General was at home -

20 telephone number 076/731 967. Since the

21 telephones "in the town were not working -

22 the exchange was out of order" they could not

23 reach Krstic, so Popovic left the following

24 message for him with duty officer Delgadsi:

25 "Tell him that we are at Badem/code

Page 4359

1 name/ ... tell him that we haven't finished

2 the job, we are here."

3 And then the name (redacted) appears on the same sheet.

4 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, that concludes my

5 examination-in-chief, so I can offer the witness for cross-examination.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Cayley. We're

7 now going to have a recess, well deserved, I think, a half-hour break.

8 --- Recess taken at 11.03 a.m.

9 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness X, you're now going to

11 answer questions which I see that Mr. Visnjic is going to put to you.

12 Mr. Visnjic, your witness.

13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Visnjic:

15 Q. Good morning, Witness X. During the examination-in-chief by my

16 learned friend the Prosecutor, regarding your education, you stated that

17 you had an engineering education and that you spent your whole working

18 life working in the field of engineering and associating with

19 technicians. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 Q. Could you tell us a little more about your technical education?

22 A. I was mostly engaged in civil engineering works, earth-moving

23 activities, and that sort of thing.

24 Q. So your technical education has nothing in common with the

25 techniques supplied in radio communication; is that correct?

Page 4360

1 A. It is.

2 Q. Thank you. During your testimony, you said that in 1994 you were

3 transferred to the unit for electronic surveillance and radio

4 interception; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You also said that on that occasion you attended a one-month long

7 course for training purposes.

8 A. Yes, that is correct.

9 Q. I will make a short pause between my questions because of the

10 interpreters.

11 You also told us that during that training course you learnt the

12 basics of radio communications; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. During that course, were you familiarised with the procedure for

15 the formation and storage of interception documents?

16 A. That was not the subject of this training course, except as

17 regards the actual capture of conversations and their forwarding. There

18 was some discussion of processing, but that was not part of our regular

19 duties.

20 Q. Also during your examination-in-chief, you said that at the

21 beginning of January 1995 you became (redacted); is that correct?

22 A. It is.

23 Q. Did you then attend any special course to become that?

24 A. No, I did not.

25 Q. Did any of your superiors at the time brief you in any way

Page 4361

1 regarding the procedure or did anyone give you any instructions about the

2 reporting -- about reporting on intercepted conversations?

3 A. (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted).

6 Q. During your work at Majevica and especially after the time you

7 became (redacted), did you receive from your command written orders

8 regarding electronic interception?

9 A. Written orders were not customary. A part of the order would come

10 through the communications system into the computer of my department.

11 Q. You said "a part of the orders." Does that apply to the orders I

12 was referring to, that is, orders on electronic surveillance and

13 interception, consisting of the following elements: for instance,

14 defining the enemy, the person you are intercepting, the party you are

15 intercepting?

16 A. We knew who the enemy was. Throughout our stay there, we

17 monitored only one enemy. And we monitored exclusively one zone of

18 activity of the enemy; that is, the activity of enemy communications.

19 Q. Do you know -- or, rather, let me withdraw that question.

20 In your work, did you coordinate with the other facilities at

21 which the enemy was being monitored?

22 A. I had a superior officer, and I did not enter into any other

23 activities except those that were directly assigned to me.

24 Q. (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4362

1 A. Yes. The handing over of duty was done in a collective manner

2 when the shifts are changed in the presence of the shift leaders and the

3 other superior officers.

4 Q. On that occasion when you were handing over duty, was any written

5 document compiled?

6 A. No, no such documents existed.

7 Q. When handing over duty, was any document drawn up regarding

8 responsibility for the equipment?

9 A. The routes of surveillance were in the computer, and they were

10 defined and only confirmed when shifts changed. No other documents were

11 written. A simple visual review of the area, the equipment, and the

12 devices was carried out.

13 Q. But no document was compiled; is that right?

14 A. No, we didn't draw up any kind of document.

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 A. The general distribution for the whole shift was done, but work on

25 devices was envisaged in such a way that the operators always had at their

Page 4363

1 disposal one set of equipment. So it wasn't important whether an operator

2 would be working with one or other set.

3 Q. In your assessment, were all the men in your shift equally well

4 trained?

5 A. I believe they were.

6 Q. During the distribution of men within a shift, did you keep some

7 kind of a record from which it was evident who worked when?

8 A. At the beginning of every shift, we had a distribution. We had a

9 school blackboard, and (redacted) would simply write down all the activities

10 on that blackboard. But it was not kept as a permanent record. It would

11 disappear at the end of the shift.

12 Q. So there are no written documents about it?

13 A. There is nothing in writing about that, but it is well known, how

14 the men worked.

15 Q. During your work, would some devices fail occasionally?

16 A. There were such situations.

17 Q. Or perhaps it could be broken?

18 A. Breakage is not a term that can be used for a fault in such

19 devices.

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4364

1 faults.

2 Q. But you didn't have any rules about that either?

3 A. Rules existed. I can tell them. I can tell you about them, if

4 you wish.

5 The first rule was that we had to abide by the instructions for

6 the handling of such equipment, and if we act in that way, there can be no

7 surprises.

8 Secondly, if a fault occurs which the operator is not able to deal

9 with, it is sent for repair, it is reported to the command, the commander

10 sends a replacement.

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 A. We all started the war or, rather, we joined the army as regular

21 soldiers, and, in fact, for a long period of time we didn't even have

22 ranks or titles. We just had certain people for certain levels of

23 responsibility.

24 Q. But we're talking about the period of 1995. That is not the

25 beginning of the war. It was the fourth or third year of the war. At

Page 4365

1 that point in time when you became (redacted) in 1995, that position of

2 (redacted), was it envisaged in the structure of your unit or was it an

3 ad hoc appointment?

4 A. At that time, this was considered a position that should be part

5 of the military hierarchy, with adequate support.

6 Q. Does that mean that as (redacted), you had certain rights

7 and duties stipulated by certain military rules?

8 A. All rights and duties are well known in the army. Naturally,

9 people who are higher in the chain of command than others have greater

10 rights and duties in proportion to the position they hold.

11 Q. Let us now focus on the position of a (redacted) in 1995. Let

12 us leave aside these general stipulations.

13 (redacted), was it regulated by any certain

14 rules of service for your unit?

15 A. I am not aware that there were any such official written rules or

16 regulations, but there was the rules of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

17 which we abided by.

18 Q. Are you aware that in the rules of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

19 such a position of (redacted) was envisaged?

20 A. Those rules are lengthy, and I really can't remember. I'm not

21 even sure I had enough time to read through the whole rules.

22 Q. In your previous answer, you told us you abided by those rules.

23 Did you abide by them according to some general knowledge that you had?

24 A. A part to the rules of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was studied

25 at the course we attended regarding salute in the army, for instance, and

Page 4366

1 all other ordinary things relating to a soldier's life.

2 Q. When you say "at the course," are you referring to the course you

3 attended in 1994?

4 A. Precisely so.

5 Q. Your rights as (redacted) and duties, can you tell me, on the

6 basis of what did you determine the scope of your rights and duties?

7 A. Our duty was to monitor enemy radio relay communications in the

8 zone in which -- the zone determined by the command.

9 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I'm talking about your rights as

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 A. The command, (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 A. I don't know which documents you're referring to.

21 Q. I'm referring to the notebooks, the exhibits that are in front of

22 you.

23 A. We received the notebooks when we took over the shift from the

24 commander of the unit.

25 Q. On that occasion, did you make any record on the takeover of the

Page 4367

1 notebooks?

2 A. The notebooks were previously registered in the command, and we

3 didn't have many notebooks with us so that we didn't make any records as

4 the register of the notebooks was kept in the command.

5 Q. You said that the notebooks were previously registered in the

6 command.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What did that registration consist of? How were you aware of

9 that?

10 A. On every notebook given to us, a number was indicated, the

11 registration number, and the date when the notebook was registered in the

12 command.

13 Q. Was there a stamp on those notebooks, a seal, or some other

14 marking?

15 A. I do not remember any other markings. I just know that there was

16 the number and the date.

17 Q. Were the pages of the notebooks numbered?

18 A. I don't remember that particular detail. I think sometimes there

19 were such notebooks, but I don't know whether all of them had numbers.

20 Everything depended on the scope of activities which would abbreviate the

21 normal procedure.

22 Q. When you say "the scope of activities," you are referring to the

23 number of intercepted conversations, mostly?

24 A. The volume of enemy communications depended on the activities of

25 the enemy or on the activities of our army. As a result, the volume of

Page 4368

1 our own activities in surveillance would increase.

2 Q. If I understand you correctly, due to the volume of activities,

3 some of these, let me call them administrative activities, would be pushed

4 into the background; is that correct?

5 A. There was no administration in the strict sense of the word. The

6 main thing was to make sure that our basic activities were conducted in a

7 proper manner.

8 Q. But that also depended on the volume of enemy activities, as you

9 just said; is that correct?

10 A. The work we did had to be done in a high-quality manner. If the

11 volume of activities were greater, we worked more and we engaged men from

12 another shift.

13 Q. The volume of enemy activities, would that have some influence on

14 whether the pages were numbered or not?

15 A. I really can't judge about that.

16 Q. Can you tell me how intensive radio communications were in July

17 1995?

18 A. It wasn't particularly intensive.

19 Q. Thank you. (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 A. (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted). But all these men were

25 well aware of discipline and did their work well, so there was no

Page 4369

1 particular need for this to arise, for our relationships to be brought

2 into question in any way.

3 Q. My question was: (redacted)

4 A. (redacted)

5 (redacted).

6 Q. A soldier sending out messages and the soldier that typed out the

7 messages, was this one and the same person or were these two different

8 people?

9 A. The soldier typing out the messages, that is to say, having

10 communication with the command, would be an individual which would come

11 under KZ procedure, crypto-protection procedure, and would enjoy special

12 treatment. And sometimes on certain occasions, because we might have some

13 organisational difficulties, he would help somebody else in doing what

14 they were doing. But this was very rare.

15 So for the most part, I can say that the soldiers would send the

16 KZ soldier their written texts, and the KZ soldier would then forward this

17 to the command.

18 Q. The soldier working under KZ procedure, was he in your group or

19 somewhere else?

20 A. No, he was (redacted) for discipline, in disciplinary

21 matters, but as I say, he would perform his duty without any special

22 training.

23 Q. When you would hand the conversation you had listened in to to the

24 soldier working on the crypto-protection procedure, KZ procedure, did you

25 have any way of checking that the document had been transmitted further?

Page 4370

1 A. The soldier taking down the conversation in the notebook would

2 make a note of that, saying that the conversation had gone on to the

3 command.

4 Q. I should like to return to a question that I asked a moment ago.

5 When you say there weren't many communication conversations, how many

6 conversations would there be in a shift?

7 A. Well, we didn't have any statistics on this, on the monitoring,

8 but that was just a feeling, when things were busier and when they were

9 less busy.

10 Q. When you filled out -- completed a notebook, who took it over?

11 Who took over the notebook?

12 A. The soldier who transcribed the conversation from the tape

13 recorder into the notebook would then give the notebook to the KZ soldier,

14 who would then introduce that information into a computer and transmit it

15 to the command.

16 Q. How long does this operation last, in your assessment?

17 A. This whole operation lasts for as long as is needed for that kind

18 of information to be taken down from the tape recorder, introduced into

19 the computer, and the rooms were next door. The operator's and the

20 KZ solder's office or room were next door to each other.

21 Q. When questioned, you said that there were not many notebooks. Can

22 you tell us what you mean by "not many"? Could you be specific; give us a

23 number, perhaps?

24 A. Well, I can't give you a number because a lot of time has passed

25 since then for me to be able to recall details like that. We were given

Page 4371

1 as many notebooks as they thought we needed; one, two, three, perhaps

2 more. I really couldn't say. I couldn't tell you the exact number of

3 notebooks. Sometimes we didn't have enough notebooks.

4 Q. When you would hand over shift, who would take possession of the

5 notebooks?

6 A. The note -- we received the notebooks from the unit leader,

7 commanding officer, and then those completed notebooks would be replaced

8 with new ones, and he would take away the filled-in notebooks and supply

9 us with new ones.

10 Q. And there were no written documents on this exchange of notebooks?

11 A. No, there were no records, no minutes.

12 Q. During your examination-in-chief and your testimony, you said that

13 you monitored relay communications.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you also said that they were usually -- this was done with the

16 RRU800 and the RRU1 devices.

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. And you were able to monitor this with different equipment,

19 different devices.

20 A. Yes. We had two sets of equipment, two sets, and more sets if we

21 needed them. It was standard practice to have two sets. This meant a

22 device to monitor the RRU800 and the RRU1.

23 Q. Can you tell us what communications you heard better, the RRU800

24 or the RRU1? Which were better audible, more audible?

25 A. Well, this was not determined specifically on the basis of one or

Page 4372

1 other device, it was determined by the location of the device, the quality

2 of the antenna, the weather conditions prevailing, and factors of that

3 kind.

4 Q. Do you know the difference between the two devices, the RRU800 and

5 the RRU1?

6 A. Well, in principle, yes, I am familiar with the difference.

7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I should like to ask the usher now

8 to show the witness Exhibit 284.

9 Q. Exhibit 284 is a notebook, one of the notebooks that you had

10 occasion to use. Was the notebook marked by the command in the way that

11 you described earlier on?

12 A. Yes. This notebook does have the markings of the command as I

13 described them.

14 Q. On this notebook, on page 1 -- that is to say, page 2, it has the

15 date of commencement; is that correct?

16 A. On page 1 is the date when the notebook was put to use.

17 Q. Let us make this a little clearer. So the date means the date of

18 the commencement of the first monitored conversation?

19 A. More or less, yes. The first date is the first conversation in

20 the notebook.

21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I should like to ask the usher to

22 show the witness Exhibit 282 now, please.

23 Q. May we take it that Exhibit 282 does not have any mark to show the

24 beginning of work, or, rather, the beginning of the first intercepted

25 conversation?

Page 4373

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Visnjic, we have already

2 seen this. Would you go ahead and ask your question. We already know

3 that this notebook does not have a date. So go ahead with your question,

4 please.

5 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Witness X, let me ask you a question which relates to -- that is

7 to say, a general question regarding these notebooks.

8 The notebooks shown to you by the Prosecution were in your

9 possession, that is to say, in the possession of your shift during your

10 work in July 1995; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, that is correct.

12 Q. Some of the notebooks, and this was taken note of previously, have

13 numbers -- their pages are numbered; others do not have numbered pages.

14 Is that correct?

15 A. Well, I didn't pay attention to details of that kind. I really

16 didn't.

17 Q. In some notebooks the date of the first conversation is not

18 stated; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, we've seen that.

20 Q. Tell me now, please, did you ever record the day of the last

21 conversation in the notebook?

22 A. Well, on occasion I might have put a date. I think that a date

23 should have been recorded, but there was always a date in the computer.

24 So as soon as I received the report, automatically the date goes into the

25 computer. So there wasn't any need for me to write down the date, but

Page 4374

1 sometimes that might have been the case.

2 Q. Can you tell me, looking at exhibit -- that is to say, the

3 exhibits shown to you by the Prosecutor, 320 and 321, those exhibits and

4 the other conversations that you were shown today, can you tell me whether

5 you are able to determine the exact date when they were intercepted?

6 A. The exact date that you are asking for could be within the

7 frameworks of the date when the notebook was opened and when it was

8 archived, and an assessment of the date itself is a matter of time; that

9 is to say, when the conversation took place and the conversations would

10 follow each other in order, one by one. So you could look at the times of

11 the conversations, when they started, and then you would be able to arrive

12 at the date.

13 Q. Let me ask you a logical question with respect to Exhibit 282. It

14 doesn't state the beginning or the end. There is no date either at the

15 beginning, that is to say, when the first conversation was intercepted,

16 and on the last page there is no date either when it was filed and sent to

17 the archives.

18 A. Well, I don't really understand what you're referring to. I don't

19 know what Exhibit 282 refers to.

20 Q. Well, I'll show you the exhibit. It is in tab ... it is notebook

21 40 or 27. All those numbers are written up on it, and it is Prosecution

22 Exhibit 282. That is how it is referred to in the courtroom. Can you

23 tell me something about that particular notebook? The date of the first

24 intercepted conversation, please.

25 A. The date of the first conversation could only be a date after the

Page 4375

1 date when the notebook was registered in the command.

2 Q. When you received the notebooks, took over the notebooks (redacted)

3 (redacted), did you check to see whether all of them contained this

4 registration number from the command?

5 A. It is difficult to go back in time to that period, but what I can

6 tell you is that most of the notebooks did have that, yes.

7 Q. Did you check that yourself? Are you sure of that, or do you

8 leave room for --

9 A. The notebooks were protected in a way. So new notebooks, old

10 notebooks, it was the KZ soldiers who had it, and these soldiers were

11 particularly selected. They were trusted people. And as this is a small

12 number of notebooks. I do believe that most of them had a registration in

13 the command.

14 Q. Could you tell me something about

15 Exhibit 282? When do you think the last conversation took place that was

16 recorded in that notebook?

17 A. I really can't remember the contents of that notebook. However,

18 if the date when the notebook was filed and sent to the archives, then the

19 last conversation was before that archive date.

20 Q. Can you look at the exhibit and tell us if there is an archive

21 date?

22 A. I did not see that date.

23 Q. Thank you. The conversations you intercepted were recorded on the

24 Uher tape recorders, were they not?

25 A. All monitored conversations that were of interest were taped on

Page 4376

1 the tape recorder, yes, that is correct.

2 Q. Later on, would you hand over the tapes that you recorded?

3 A. The tapes were not usually handed on further, transmitted

4 further. There were times when the tapes were sent to the command to be

5 listened to again, but during that particular period of time, probably

6 because we didn't have the necessary material and technical equipment, the

7 tapes from that shift were wiped clean if we failed to get any reserve

8 tapes. So part of the tapes went to the command for the information to be

9 checked out and for the tapes to be listened to again, but it depended.

10 Q. Who decided whether the tapes would be wiped out and retaped,

11 reused?

12 A. The decision came of its own accord. If you didn't have any more

13 tapes to tape the conversations, then you had to use the ones you had

14 again.

15 Q. (redacted)

16 A. I usually asked for new tapes to be sent, and sometimes I would

17 get a new tape, other times I would not. I also had a superior officer in

18 my shift who would take care of matters like that.

19 Q. During the time span of the matters we're dealing with, and during

20 your testimony, you said on one occasion that you paid particular

21 attention to the route that -- just one moment, please -- the route that

22 the members of the BiH army were to leave the Srebrenica area; is that

23 correct?

24 A. I felt a human responsibility for these people that were

25 withdrawing, and that is why I wanted to do what we were doing in the

Page 4377

1 spirit of assistance. That was my main concern, and I wanted to see that

2 through my information, that the situation could be solved.

3 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further

4 questions of this witness. Thank you.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

6 Mr. Visnjic.

7 Mr. Cayley.

8 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I have no further questions for the

9 witness. Thank you.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

11 Mr. Cayley.

12 Judge Fouad Riad.

13 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. President. I have one simple question

14 for you; perhaps not simple.

15 Questioned by the Court:

16 JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned, during your answer to the Prosecutor,

17 that Popovic had left a message for General Krstic, telling him that, and

18 I quote you, "We have not finished the job, we are here." My question is:

19 Could you detect approximately where the message would be coming from?

20 When he says, "We are here," could you detect where that is?

21 A. Your Honour, my department duty was to forward information to the

22 department for the processing of information through an encrypted -- to

23 assist them in encryption that we had in the unit. For some links, it is

24 possible, technically, to identify the route or the direction for some of

25 the connections that we surveyed. For others, unfortunately, it is

Page 4378

1 difficult to identify. But, in any event, that was not our duty.

2 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much, Witness X.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Fouad

4 Riad.

5 Judge Wald.

6 JUDGE WALD: Witness X, you told us in the beginning that part of

7 your duties as you're listening to the conversations on the radio, that if

8 you found one that was -- I think you used the word -- interesting, you

9 would then manually put it on the tape, transcribe it on the tape.

10 Did you have any briefings, or who told you, in essence, what

11 would be an "interesting" conversation and what would not, since so many

12 of the conversations appear to be in some kind of code? I mean people are

13 using code words all the time. What was your source of information as to

14 the type of conversations that would be "interesting"?

15 A. We monitored the enemy radio relay communications and the

16 conversations mainly of military officers, leading officers, using those

17 communications. There was no official coding of those conversations, as a

18 rule. These were open-line communications when people simply used

19 different words for what they meant. They wouldn't use the name. They

20 would say "the chief," or something like that.

21 As for the coded communications, they were monitored in a

22 different manner, and they were not transmitted, but they were not the

23 object of our monitoring. They were teleprinter connections and so on.

24 As to how we judged whether a conversation was interesting, the

25 importance of the conversation is something that we were taught at the

Page 4379

1 course. Important people conduct important conversations. So even the

2 classification of the channels on the devices were made appropriately so

3 that if an important headquarters or an important person is heard, we

4 listen in, and if there are no such people, then we listen to what we

5 have. It depends on whether there's any interest in a conversation or

6 not.

7 JUDGE WALD: During the period that we're talking about, roughly

8 July of 1995, when you, I believe, said that the radio communications were

9 not particularly intensive -- I think you said that -- could you give me a

10 rough estimate, very rough, of, in your own experience, how many of the

11 conversations that you heard would be transcribed; just like a few, many,

12 or almost all? In other words, of all the conversations that came over on

13 the tape, how many you would punch the manual lever and have transcribed.

14 A majority, a few, or almost all?

15 A. In my judgement, most of the conversations that were listened in

16 to, precisely because of the poorer intensity of communications, were

17 transcribed because that was all we had to offer the command as

18 information.

19 But when I say "low-intensity communication", I wanted to say that

20 in some situations, both shifts would be working who could hardly manage

21 to transcribe all the conversations throughout their working hours.

22 JUDGE WALD: Okay, thank you. I have one last question.

23 Take, for example, Exhibit 324, which is a conversation that you

24 identified between Colonel Cerovic and Vinko. I don't know if you have

25 that in front of you. It's 324. I'm only interested in the procedures

Page 4380

1 here, not in the substance of the conversation. It says at the top:

2 "Colonel Cerovic to Vinko."

3 Now, you just said that one of your criteria for transcribing was

4 important people and certain headquarters. Now, this whole conversation

5 is -- at least the copy we have -- is only in terms of Colonel Cerovic and

6 Vinko, and it starts out: "Colonel Cerovic wants to talk to him." "Okay."

7 And it goes down all the way down calling him "Vinko". But it's quite

8 apparent from the excerpt that Vinko is a person of some importance in

9 terms of some kind of command and authority.

10 In a situation like that, does it mean that Vinko never identified

11 his last name, or that you didn't recognise who it was, or that you tuned

12 into the conversation maybe a second too late or something and didn't get

13 it? Because it would appear it would be easy for somebody who monitored a

14 lot of conversations to figure out who Vinko was. I just wondered what

15 your routine was. If you had a first name like that and a pretty good

16 idea of the person's position, would any attempt be made to try and find

17 out who he was or not?

18 A. I have already said that we had a department for the processing of

19 information, and we could only suggest to that department that an

20 individual whose voice we had heard, we couldn't put a note saying that we

21 had identified him.

22 But the report here shows that this is the third channel of the

23 radio relay device, which means that it was rated very high. We see that

24 the speakers have high ranks in the army. What could happen, and what

25 happened very often, was for us not to start transcribing the conversation

Page 4381

1 from the very beginning, which means we hear the telephone ring, we hear

2 this on the device, and then the signalman of that location answers. And

3 the conversation starts with greetings, questions like, "Who is calling,

4 why," and then the person calling would give his name or not, ask for

5 someone by rank or by name.

6 As I cannot remember everything, I would say that Mr. Cerovic

7 introduced himself and that all he said was that he wanted to speak to

8 Vinko. And that was probably what preceded the conversation before this.

9 However, as this conversation was complete, only this procedure of

10 establishing a connection was not noted down because it would be a waste

11 of time for the operator.

12 JUDGE WALD: So your assumption on something like this is when you

13 sent it up, the transcribed version, when you sent it up to your command

14 forces, that they would be able to figure out who Vinko was?

15 A. In this situation such as we have here, that is not a problem, not

16 even for the soldier who received or captured the message. But it is the

17 command who did all that.

18 JUDGE WALD: It's not a problem for me either. I just wondered

19 what the procedure was. Thank you.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge

21 Wald.

22 Could the usher go to the witness. I would need his assistance.

23 Mr. Usher, could you show the witness Exhibit 279, page 3. It is tab 1.

24 So the third page of the document and page 1 of the notebook.

25 Witness X, you have this code of registration in the command,

Page 4382

1 according to what you explained to us. Could you decode for us what is

2 written here? What does it mean? You see the date, the 23rd of June,

3 1995. And then the next line, what does that line say?

4 A. The date is the date on which the notebook was registered in the

5 command on the 23rd of June, 1995. So as this report doesn't have a date,

6 it was compiled after the date when the notebook was registered in the

7 command. The first report has the time when it was compiled and the

8 frequency from which the conversation was captured.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What does "Strogo Pov" mean?

10 "08/2/01/443", what does that mean?

11 A. I only know about the Strogo Pov. It is the level of

12 confidentiality of the document. It means it is not accessible to anyone

13 except to people within our unit, in my opinion, and those superior to

14 us.

15 As for the other numbers, except for the date, I don't know what

16 they signify. They are numbers from the command.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let me put the question in a

18 different manner.

19 The notebooks, were they numbered according to any kind of

20 sequence or order?

21 A. I believe they were, though I didn't pay any particular attention

22 to that.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another question. (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 A. (redacted)

Page 4383

1 sometimes the shift would be reinforced by another shift, and sometimes we

2 were joined by people from headquarters. So up to 15 men engaged on these

3 activities.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you remember what age they

5 were, more or less?

6 A. They were mostly -- (redacted)

7 (redacted), I would say, about 25, not more.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 A. (redacted)

11 (redacted).

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Fine. (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 A. (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 A. (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. I think that we have

21 no more questions for you. You have helped us to understand these

22 procedures a little better. So we wish to thank you very much for coming

23 here, and we wish you a safe journey to your country and success in your

24 work.

25 Please don't move, because we have some little things to deal with

Page 4384

1 first.

2 I think, Mr. Cayley, we're rather in the same situation in

3 accordance with the ruling of the Chamber as regards admission into

4 evidence. We have 319A to 325, don't we, as exhibits?

5 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Mr. President. We are in exactly the same

6 position as we were yesterday in respect to these exhibits. Excuse me,

7 Your Honour.

8 [Prosecution counsel confer]

9 MR. CAYLEY: My learned friend Mr. Harmon has pointed out

10 to me that at this stage he would like those exhibits identified which

11 should remain under seal because they have signatures, and I can do that

12 because I actually noted on these exhibits the ones that should not be

13 shown on the ELMO. 319 should remain under seal when it's admitted into

14 evidence. That has the witness' signature upon the B/C/S version.

15 Exhibit 320 has no visible signature on it. Exhibit 321 should remain

16 under seal in the B/C/S version because that has a signature upon it.

17 Exhibit 322 has no visible signature, so it can remain a public document.

18 Exhibit 323, again, has no signature on it so it can remain a public

19 document, and I think the same is true for Exhibit 324. No, I'm sorry.

20 That has a signature on it. Exhibit 324 should remain under seal in the

21 B/C/S version, and also

22 325 because that has a name upon it which could identify somebody involved

23 in the process. So that should also remain under seal.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

25 Mr. Cayley.

Page 4385

1 Mr. Visnjic or Mr. Petrusic, regarding the admission of exhibits,

2 those of today and, generally speaking, do you already have an idea as to

3 when you will be able to take a final position regarding admission of

4 these tendered documents?

5 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, sometime at the

6 beginning of next week we will be able to take a position on some

7 documents except for the last batch. We are having some difficulty with

8 the translation. I can tell you that that is the greatest problem we're

9 having, regarding the precision of translations.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So, Madam Registrar, please take

11 note of these indications so that we can make a ruling.

12 So I think the time has come for a break now.

13 Witness X, please don't move; stay in your seat.

14 We're going to have a half-hour break now.

15 --- Recess taken at 12.50 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 1.25 p.m.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see that it's Mr. McCloskey

18 whose going to speak on behalf of the Prosecution.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. Good afternoon. Good

20 afternoon, everyone. I'm sorry I have not been in the Court. I've been

21 preparing for next week's presentation so we can make it as efficient as

22 possible.

23 On that same subject, Defence counsel and the Prosecution team

24 have been discussing an issue regarding the witness who would be

25 Mr. Richard Butler, the intelligence analyst who would be discussing the

Page 4386

1 some 200 exhibits related to military responsibility in the case.

2 The question I need to bring up with the Court today -- we have

3 been attempting to reach an agreement on what is not a huge subject but is

4 a sensitive subject, and we have been unable to reach an agreement, and so

5 both sides have requested that we -- that we speak to the Court about that

6 now.

7 We would prefer to go in closed session, if that's possible. I

8 look around and it seems like it's closed session at the moment, but ...

9 [Closed session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4387













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25 session.

Page 4394

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps before making the solemn

6 declaration the blinds should be raised.

7 Witness, please sit down for a moment.

8 Witness, please stand up now and read the solemn declaration given

9 to you by the usher.

10 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I solemnly declare that I will speak

11 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Are you comfortable?


17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You're going to look at this

18 piece of paper with your name written on it, and tell us, please, yes or

19 no whether that is your name.


21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So now you're going to answer

22 questions put to you by Mr. Cayley, who is on your right. Thank you very

23 much.

24 Mr. Cayley, your witness. You may begin.

25 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 4395

1 Examined by Mr. Cayley:

2 Q. Witness, you heard some discussion as you were coming in about

3 closed session. Just to reassure you, the visual image of you is

4 distorted and you will be known by a pseudonym. So the public are not

5 aware of your identity; you're safe.

6 MR. CAYLEY: Madam Registrar, what is the pseudonym for this

7 witness?

8 THE REGISTRAR: Pseudonym "Y".


10 Q. Witness Y, what is your nationality?

11 A. My nationality is Muslim.

12 Q. You come from Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?

13 A. Yes. I'm a citizen of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14 Q. Could you just give the Judges a very brief summary of your

15 educational background?

16 A. I graduated from secondary school. I have secondary education.

17 Q. How old were you when you graduated from secondary school?

18 A. I was 18 years old.

19 Q. Now, you carried out your military service in the JNA in 1998.

20 I'm sorry. Correction, in 1988. Can you explain to Their Honours what

21 your specialisation was within the JNA?

22 A. I joined the JNA to do my military service of one year in 1988 in

23 the Yugoslav People's Army. I was in the signals branch. I worked as an

24 operator on communications equipment for a time. After completing

25 training that was envisaged for all conscripts, all soldiers, I worked on

Page 4396

1 signals equipment for the needs of the armoured brigade in Pristina.

2 Q. And what was your precise responsibility within the armoured

3 brigade at Pristina?

4 A. In the armoured brigade in Pristina, after serving for six months,

5 I was a squad leader on armoured communications vehicles. These are

6 vehicles intended for the command.

7 Q. You've already said that you had a signals background in the JNA.

8 Were you responsible for the communications equipment within those

9 communications vehicles?

10 A. Yes, I was responsible for communications equipment. We mostly

11 trained ourselves, because these were Russian-made communications

12 equipment, on the basis of textbooks. We had textbooks to study.

13 Q. Prior to joining the JNA did you have an interest in radio

14 communications?

15 A. Yes. Before I went to do my military service, I was a radio

16 amateur, ever since 1984. I passed a radio amateur classification test

17 for

18 Category C, and I had used communications equipment before, and it was the

19 reason why I was deployed in that branch of the army.

20 Q. And the Category C licence is an internationally recognised radio

21 licence, is it not?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I want to move forward now to July of 1992. I think at this time

24 you joined a particular unit of the Bosnian army. Could you tell Their

25 Honours what unit that was?

Page 4397

1 A. It was a unit for electronic surveillance and anti-electronic

2 warfare.

3 Q. Now, I know that that unit was based in a number of different

4 places, but where was the eventual location of that particular unit? What

5 was the name of the place where it was ultimately based?

6 A. We were first near my town for a while and then we moved to

7 Okresanica, and we had another section in Konjuh.

8 Q. I want to concentrate on Okresanica first.

9 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit

10 138, please.

11 Q. While we're waiting for that exhibit, to whom was the unit at

12 Okresanica answerable to? Who was your superior command?

13 A. The company commander was in the headquarters of the 2nd Corps.

14 So they were responsible. We at Okresanica were accountable to the

15 company commander, and he was situated in the corps command.

16 Q. And that was the 2nd Corps of the Bosnian army based in Tuzla?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you just point to the Judges the location Okresanica where

19 you were based?

20 A. [Indicates]

21 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show the witness has identified

22 Okresanica on Prosecutor's Exhibit 138 as his location, and also the

23 second location, Konjuh, that we'll come to in a moment, as another place

24 where he himself was based.

25 Q. Now, Witness, very briefly because the Judges have heard this

Page 4398

1 procedure a number of times, can you explain to Their Honours the reason

2 why you were at Okresanica, what you were doing there, and how you went

3 about the process, the function that you were carrying out there.

4 A. At Okresanica, which is a high hill, a high mountain, and we were

5 located there in order to be able to monitor communications, specifically

6 radio relay communications. We had a working premises in which the

7 devices were set up.

8 The procedure was that at every work post there was a tape

9 recorder -- it was usually an Uher in terms of make -- then two devices

10 for each work post, two devices. I usually also had an ordinary piece of

11 paper in front of me.

12 The device already had memorised frequencies that we were

13 monitoring, the channels, so that I would switch on the device and it

14 would search, do the searching. When a conversation was detected, we

15 would stop the scanning process and we would switch on the tape recorder

16 for recording.

17 On the piece of paper, I would usually note down the time, the

18 frequency, and if I knew the participants, then also the participants. If

19 I did not know who the participants in the conversation were, then a part

20 of the conversation that would be indicative and the number shown on the

21 tape recorder to indicate which part of the tape the conversation was

22 recorded on, and at the end of the conversation, we would usually let the

23 device scan those same frequencies because the conversation may, in the

24 meantime, appear on a different channel.

25 What happened often is that we would record several conversations

Page 4399

1 in sequence, and the procedure would always be the same. We would take

2 down the time, the frequency, and the participants, and after a certain

3 amount of time, if there were one, two, three, or more conversations, we

4 would rewind the tape to the beginning of the first conversation. We

5 would take a notebook in which we usually transcribed those

6 conversations. We would again take note of the time, the frequency, and

7 the participants, and the conversation as it went.

8 After that, when all the conversations had been taken down or

9 transcribed from the tape, we would give them to a man whose duty it was

10 to type out the text into the computer, on the computer. He would do

11 that. He would usually also note the date, the time, and all the other

12 information that we had noted down. After that, he would encrypt the

13 telegram and forward it to the command, the command of our unit.

14 MR. CAYLEY: If the usher could take Exhibits 298 and 299. I just

15 have a couple of questions to clarify what you've just stated.

16 Q. Whose conversations were you recording? Who were you listening

17 to?

18 A. We call them enemy communications. It was the enemy side, the

19 opposing side. These were usually communications between the brigades and

20 the corps and between the corps and the General Staff.

21 Q. Which army are you referring to?

22 A. The army of Republika Srpska.

23 Q. Now, when you listened to the tape, the recording of the

24 conversation, if you had a problem in understanding a particular word,

25 what would you do?

Page 4400

1 A. Usually, we were not alone in that room. There were two of us or

2 more operators. I would call -- having rewound the tape several times

3 back and forth to try and decipher the word or the sentence that I can't

4 decipher immediately, I would ask my colleague to help me and to try and

5 hear it for me. If he could not, then we would usually put three dots.

6 If those three dots are at the beginning of the conversation, that would

7 usually mean that the conversation was not taped from the very beginning.

8 That they had already said something, and then we reached the frequency on

9 which they were communicating.

10 Q. Were you always able to identify the participants in

11 conversations?

12 A. Not always. But after monitoring for some time, we already

13 recognised the voices of quite a number of them.

14 Q. What were the principal manners in which you did identify the

15 speakers in conversations?

16 A. Each one of us has a different tone of voice, and some have quite

17 specific ways of speech. Some also had telephones that had very strong

18 microphones, so they would distort the voice, and so those telephone lines

19 could be distinguished from others, so we knew which telephone was being

20 used.

21 Q. And am I right in saying that on a number of occasions,

22 participants actually introduced themselves within the conversation, they

23 gave their name?

24 A. Yes. When contacting the exchanges, the telephone exchanges that

25 they used, they would often introduce themselves, yes.

Page 4401

1 Q. Just look at the equipment on the ELMO. Is that an example of the

2 equipment that you used at Okresanica or at Konjuh?

3 A. Yes. That is a Kenwood short-wave receiver, short waves. And

4 this is an Icon R100, an ultra-high-frequency device.

5 Q. And so in that particular exhibit, 298, there is a short-wave

6 receiver on the left-hand side of the photograph and an

7 ultra-high-frequency receiver on the right-hand side of the photograph; is

8 that correct?

9 A. Yes, yes, that is correct.

10 MR. CAYLEY: And if the witness could be shown Prosecutor's

11 Exhibit 299.

12 Q. Is this an example of the tape recorder, the Uher tape recorder

13 that you used at both Okresanica and Konjuh?

14 A. Yes, yes, it is a tape recorder. A Uher -- of German manufacture.

15 Q. And this tape recorder was simply connected by cable to the

16 receivers?

17 A. Yes, yes. It was possible to connect them to headphones. There

18 were connections behind the receiver, and these were connected to the tape

19 recorder, the Uher.

20 Q. Now, very briefly, if you could explain to Their Honours, how many

21 days of work did you do and how many days' rest did you take? Was there a

22 shift procedure for your work?

23 A. Yes. We worked depending on the situation. I worked in several

24 places sometimes seven days, ten days, or fourteen days. It all depended

25 on the situation, how much fuel we had, because for a time we were

Page 4402

1 surrounded, totally surrounded. The roads were blocked, we had no fuel,

2 and so we would be there for 14 days. And very often we would go on foot

3 on location.

4 Q. Within each shift, whether it was seven or ten or fourteen days,

5 for how many hours did you work every day?

6 A. Every day, a minimum of eight hours; sometimes for longer.

7 Sometimes I would work for 12 or even 16 hours. Our service worked round

8 the clock, 24 hours a day.

9 Q. At the beginning of every seven, ten, or fourteen-day shift, was

10 there a briefing from the commander of the previous shift to your shift?

11 A. During the change of shifts, the company commander would address

12 us, and he would brief us briefly as to what had happened in the previous

13 shift, or the platoon commander; it depended. Sometimes it was the

14 platoon commander who was the shift leader. And they would brief us on

15 the most important developments in the previous seven or ten or fourteen

16 days.

17 Q. And within the shifts themselves, within, you know, your seven- or

18 eight-hour duty, after you took your rest and went back to doing your

19 work, did the intercept operator brief you on anything of importance that

20 had taken place during his shift?

21 A. When I came on duty, the operator who was working until then would

22 inform the colleague replacing him on which channels there were any

23 activities and what kind of activities, usually.

24 Q. Now, I think in May of 1994, you transferred to Konjuh. Is that

25 right?

Page 4403

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you've already shown the location of that place to the Judges

3 on the map that was shown to you; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were the procedures at Konjuh and Okresanica very similar,

6 identical?

7 A. Yes, yes. The procedure was, to all intents and purposes, the

8 same.

9 Q. At Konjuh, could you explain to Their Honours broadly the

10 geographical area that you covered, that you monitored from your location?

11 A. Mount Konjuh is a dominant mountain in the area. It is a high

12 mountain in that area of Bosnia. And we covered part of the zone to the

13 left of Zvornik. That is to say, Zvornik was on the left, and on the

14 right was Sarajevo, Eastern Bosnia. We also covered the Ozren area, the

15 Mount Ozren area.

16 Q. Now, you stated earlier in your evidence that you were concerned

17 with monitoring the Bosnian Serb army. Which units or which principal

18 unit of the Bosnian Serb army were you monitoring within this area in

19 Eastern Bosnia?

20 A. We were focusing on the Drina Corps, and in the vicinity was the

21 General Staff of the army of Republika Srpska; Han Pijesak, to be more

22 specific.

23 Q. In monitoring the Drina Corps, you were also concerned with the

24 subordinate brigades of that corps?

25 A. Yes, that's right. Communications were down towards the corps,

Page 4404

1 and they went one way, one-way radio relay devices.

2 Q. Now, previously you have been shown by me the notebooks -- a

3 number of notebooks from Konjuh, and you've identified those notebooks. I

4 would like us to now go through that process in the courtroom.

5 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I have the original notebooks, as my

6 learned friend Mr. Harmon did in respect of the first witness on this

7 subject matter. I don't intend to offer these into evidence because they

8 are still part of ongoing investigations. We have made copies. But the

9 witness has only looked at these. He's not actually seen the copies,

10 because when I spoke to him, the copies were not ready.

11 So without wishing to create any confusion, I'd like to show him

12 these documents and then essentially offer the copy as an exhibit to the

13 Court, subject to the limitations that the Court has already placed on

14 those exhibits. And I can undertake to the Court that those exhibits are

15 an accurate photocopy of these books.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Petrusic, do you

17 agree? Do you accept this procedure?

18 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I do.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

20 Mr. Cayley, you may continue.

21 MR. CAYLEY: And I would simply add, Mr. President, if the Defence

22 wish to inspect any of these books, they're welcome to do so.

23 So if I could first of all give you that one, Mr. Usher.

24 Q. Witness, could you inspect that book that I've provided to you.

25 Do you recognise that book?

Page 4405

1 A. Yes, I recognise it.

2 Q. Could you just look through it and check that you're absolutely

3 certain that it is a book that you recognise?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is this a book from Konjuh?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. And this is Prosecutor's Exhibit 293.

8 How do you know it's a book from Konjuh?

9 A. There are parts here which I took down from the equipment. It is

10 my own handwriting. It has a date, the date of the first conversation

11 that was recorded into the notebook, and at that time I was at Konjuh

12 myself. So I was serving during that period at Konjuh.

13 Q. And what is the date of the first conversation in that booklet, if

14 you can see it?

15 A. The date of the first conversation is the

16 1st of July, 1995.

17 MR. CAYLEY: And for the purposes of the record, the witness is

18 looking at Prosecutor's

19 Exhibit 293, and that date is to be found on 00801875.

20 Mr. Usher, if that book could be returned to me. I'll move to the

21 next book.

22 Q. Witness, if you could inspect that book in front of you. This is

23 Prosecutor's Exhibit 286. That is the copy is Prosecutor's Exhibit 286.

24 A. Yes. This is a notebook from Konjuh as well.

25 Q. Can you explain to Their Honours why it is a notebook from Konjuh,

Page 4406

1 why you recognise it?

2 A. I recognise this notebook because of my handwriting, and it is the

3 period from the 29th of July -- June, I'm sorry, the 29th of June, 1995,

4 which is when I worked on Konjuh. And there are the participants here

5 that are mentioned, and we monitored this tape from Konjuh alone.

6 MR. CAYLEY: And the date that the witness is referring to, 29

7 June 1995, is found in Prosecutor's Exhibit 286 at page 00800823.

8 And, Mr. Usher, if we could move to the next exhibit.

9 Q. If you could inspect that book, Witness. Witness, do you

10 recognise this book?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. I think if you go to the fifth page of this booklet you'll find a

13 date. The sixth page.

14 A. Yes, I found the date.

15 Q. What is the date that you see?

16 A. The 21st of July, 1995.

17 Q. And were you working --

18 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise, but I

19 don't see the number of the exhibit, not in the transcript. Perhaps

20 Mr. Cayley did mention it, but I can't see it in the LiveNote.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I think you're right,

22 Mr. Visnjic. I think Mr. Cayley is going to tell us the exhibit that

23 corresponds to -- the exhibit number corresponding to this notebook.

24 MR. CAYLEY: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Visnjic. It's Prosecutor's

25 Exhibit 289.

Page 4407

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you very much,

2 Mr. Visnjic, as well, from me.


4 Q. You were working at Konjuh during that period?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. CAYLEY: If we could move to the next exhibit. The

7 Prosecutor's Exhibit -- the copy, is Exhibit 291.

8 A. Yes, I recognise the notebook.


10 Q. Is this a notebook from Konjuh?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What is the first date that you can see, the first dated

13 conversation that you can see in this book?

14 A. The first dated conversation is the 13th of June, 1995.

15 MR. CAYLEY: And that can be found in Prosecutor's Exhibit 291 at

16 00801668.

17 And if we could move to the next exhibit.

18 Q. Witness, do you recognise this booklet?

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. Cayley, but I

20 think -- what is the Exhibit number now?

21 MR. CAYLEY: Prosecutor's Exhibit 281, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.


24 Q. Witness, do you recognise this particular booklet?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4408

1 Q. Where is this booklet from?

2 A. This booklet is from Konjuh.

3 Q. How do you recognise it?

4 A. I recognise my own handwriting, the dates -- the date, and that is

5 the date when I worked on Konjuh.

6 Q. What is the first dated conversation that you can find in this

7 booklet?

8 A. The 21st of June, 1995.

9 MR. CAYLEY: And that, for the purposes of the record, can be

10 found in Prosecutor's Exhibit 281 at page 00780291.

11 And the last one is Prosecutor's

12 Exhibit 292. That is the copy.

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 The actual exhibit number is 292. It's not as just stated.

16 Q. I'm sorry, Witness. Could you look at that particular document?

17 Do you recognise that document?

18 A. Yes, I recognise it.

19 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, one moment. I'm sorry.

20 [Prosecution counsel confer]


22 Q. Witness, could you just show me the front cover of that document?

23 Yes. There's some confusion.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Cayley, perhaps I can be of

25 assistance and give you a break until tomorrow.

Page 4409

1 MR. CAYLEY: Yes. I'm sorry, Your Honour. You can imagine I feel

2 rather like a juggler at the moment, and a file has ended up here which is

3 not in order. I'll review the transcript, but there is some confusion

4 between the copies and originals, but I will work backwards and get it

5 sorted out by tomorrow.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You are doing a very good job but ...

7 [Interpretation] I think that this is a good moment to pause. We

8 adjourn until tomorrow, because I don't think you would get through what

9 you wanted to today anyway. So let's continue tomorrow. The meeting is

10 adjourned.

11 MR. CAYLEY: To reassure the Court, there's very little left of

12 the examination-in-chief. There's, in fact, only two specific intercepts

13 that that witness will introduce. So I anticipate about 10 or 15 minutes,

14 particularly if I get my papers in order for tomorrow. I apologise to the

15 Court for the disorder at the end.


17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

18 at 2.30 p.m., to be reconvened on

19 Thursday, the 22nd day of June, 2000

20 at 9.30 a.m.