Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7191

1 Wednesday, 8 November 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.24 a.m.

5 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning to the parties, to all our staff, and to

6 the public gallery.

7 I would like to have some information, Mr. Petrusic, some

8 information about General Krstic's health.

9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

10 Yesterday afternoon and evening the Defence -- yesterday afternoon and

11 evening, the Defence contacted General Krstic in the detention unit, and

12 we understand that he has undergone surgery, so that he is now feeling

13 quite well, but he is unable to attend the proceedings today. We have

14 also been informed that the surgeon has made -- has scheduled a check-up

15 for tomorrow probably.

16 JUDGE RIAD: We are not having any new witness tomorrow.

17 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE RIAD: So he doesn't need to be disturbed.

19 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I agree with you, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE RIAD: Please convey to him the best wishes of the Bench.

21 Thank you.

22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Thank

23 you very much.

24 JUDGE RIAD: I think -- Ms. Krystal?

25 THE REGISTRAR: I just wanted to say: Last night we received by

Page 7192

1 fax from the detention centre a waiver of General Krstic's presence here

2 and the continuation of the hearing in his absence, so that will be

3 brought up by the end of the day.

4 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. I thought that waiver was already done

5 yesterday.

6 THE REGISTRAR: It was for yesterday, but he also signed a waiver

7 for today, and tomorrow, if in fact we go to tomorrow.

8 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

9 In agreement with Judge Wald, we are not imposing hard and fast

10 rules as far as the time is concerned, but it has to be within -- between

11 60 and 70 minutes, the session, so that you will not be interrupted when

12 we have a cycle of coherent questions. So at least, but we should not

13 have it less than 60 or more than 70. Is that all right with you,

14 Mr. Harmon?

15 MR. HARMON: Yes, Judge Riad. Thank you very much.

16 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

17 MR. HARMON: Good morning Judge Wald, Judge Riad. Good morning,

18 Witness DB. If Witness DB could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 827.


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Harmon:

22 Q. And while Exhibit 827 is being collected, Witness DB, yesterday we

23 were discussing the VRS intercept units that were focusing their attention

24 on the enemy, and in that course of our discussion, we discussed the

25 collection of intelligence data from outside the area of the Drina Corps.

Page 7193

1 Now, the exhibit I'm going to show you is an example of an intelligence

2 report of electronic surveillance that was collected by the East Bosnia

3 Corps. And Witness, it may be of assistance to you if I give you my copy

4 of the B/C/S, because I have highlighted certain portions that I am going

5 to read.

6 MR. HARMON: First, do Your Honours have a copy of this Exhibit?


8 MR. HARMON: Thank you.

9 Q. In the upper left-hand corner of page 1 of this exhibit, you can

10 see the identity of the group that sent this exhibit. This is the Eastern

11 Bosnian Corps Command of the 3rd Radio Reconnaissance Platoon. And to

12 locate us in space, the East Bosnian Corps Command was the corps that was

13 immediately north of Zvornik, where most of the murders of Bosnian Muslim

14 civilians occurred; isn't that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The date of this report is the 23rd of July, 1995. That can be

17 seen in the upper left. And it is an intelligence report on electronic

18 surveillance and it is directed to the Chief of Intelligence and Security

19 of the Eastern Bosnian Corps. Now, this report shows the areas where the

20 intelligence was collected, and one of those areas, one of the target

21 areas identified is the Tuzla area. Do you see that?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, if you could move the exhibit up on the

24 ELMO. I'm going to be focusing on Tuzla. Thank you.

25 Q. And this information that was collected was information that was,

Page 7194

1 among other things, tactical in nature. It was useful for finding and

2 locating the members of the 28th Division who were attempting to flee from

3 the Srebrenica enclave; is that correct?

4 A. Probably.

5 Q. Now, let me read the first entry. It says, under the word Tuzla,

6 "Some of the members of the 28th Division are hiding with their friends

7 from the village of Kravica." And this is dated the 22nd of July. This

8 information was intercepted at 1255 hours, and it was intercepted on

9 Bosnian Muslim mobile communications. Let me go down two sentences.

10 Do you have a comment, Witness DB?

11 A. Yes. It says in the original that a part of the members are

12 hiding at their friends' place from the village of Kravica. The

13 translation I got was that they were hiding with their friends in Kravica,

14 but in the original it says that they are hiding at their friends' place

15 in the village of Kravica.

16 Q. Well, thank you for that correction. That's better yet.

17 Let me turn to the next sentence, two sentences down: "Several

18 groups of members of the 28th Division have set off for the village of

19 Sapna." And further down it reads, "A report has been confirmed that

20 several thousand refugees from Srebrenica are still hiding in the wider

21 area of the village of Konjevic Polje. They cross over ARBH control

22 territory at night. The ARBH Main Staff plans to launch a major operation

23 to pull them out." Now, this was intercepted on the 22nd of July at 1850

24 hours on Muslim mobile communications.

25 This is the kind of information that was conveyed to the

Page 7195

1 intelligence section of the Drina Corps so the Drina Corps could analyse

2 it and take whatever appropriate steps it deemed necessary; is that

3 correct?

4 A. That is how it should be.

5 MR. HARMON: Now, let's turn over to the second page on the

6 English version, Mr. Usher.

7 Q. Now, let me read another portion of material that was intercepted.

8 This time this was intercepted on the 22nd of July at 1750 hours off of

9 the radio relay communications. "A person turned up in Tuzla saying that

10 fleeing from Srebrenica he had been captured, brought before a firing

11 squad, but managed to escape. He also said that the army of the Republika

12 Srpska had so far executed by firing squad about 2500 persons from

13 Srebrenica and its environs."

14 Let me read on in this. Let's go down to the portion that says --

15 starts to describe the flight and the arrival in Kladanj of a group of

16 soldiers, and I quote: "A large group of soldiers arrived in Kladanj from

17 Zepa on the 22nd of July." And that intercept was the 23rd of -- I'm

18 sorry, that information was captured on the 23rd of July at 9.15 in the

19 morning on radio relay communications.

20 Now, this Trial Chamber has seen a series of reports from the

21 Drina Corps and from the Zvornik -- the Drina Brigade, I'm sorry, and the

22 Zvornik Brigade of ambushes being set by VRS soldiers of Muslims fleeing

23 from the Srebrenica enclave, and in part, it is our submission that those

24 ambushes were set up based on intelligence information that was captured

25 during the flight of the Muslims.

Page 7196

1 Now, let me turn my attention now, Witness --

2 MR. HARMON: I'm finished, Mr. Usher, with that exhibit, and if I

3 could have my copy back.

4 THE USHER: Of course.


6 Q. Let me turn my attention back to Prosecutor's Exhibit 750, if I

7 could have --

8 A. May I make a comment on what you have just said?

9 Q. Do you wish to contest the submission of the Prosecutor on that

10 point? Do you wish to clarify the submission of the Prosecutor on that

11 point?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Please proceed.

14 A. I am referring to some knowledge that I have and the knowledge

15 that is probably by now in your possession, too. This report is dated the

16 23rd of July. According to actual developments on that day, I think that

17 you have unquestionable information from your investigators that on that

18 day in the broader area of Konjevic Polje, there could not have been

19 several thousand refugees from Srebrenica. I'm saying this because I know

20 that, but I think that you, too, must have information to show that on

21 that day and in that area, there couldn't have been several thousand

22 refugees from Srebrenica.

23 A second point I wish to make is that I have often been in a

24 position as a communications officer to have access to data collected

25 through intelligence and electronic monitoring, and I think that that

Page 7197

1 information was always highly suspect, that it was never reliable.

2 And if I may make a slight digression: In the military sense,

3 this was a breakthrough from the encirclement round the forces of the 28th

4 Division rather than --

5 Q. Witness DB --

6 A. -- the fleeing of refugees.

7 Q. I don't want to go into great length about the developments; I

8 want to ask you questions. And you will be permitted to answer additional

9 questions by Mr. Petrusic, but I have a limited amount of time, and I

10 intend to get through my examination today.

11 JUDGE RIAD: Can I just ask a clarification? Witness DB, when you

12 said that information collected through intelligence and electronic is

13 apparently unreliable, isn't that one of the basic ways of collecting

14 information?

15 A. It was one of the ways of collecting information, and the

16 intelligence body radio electronic reconnaissance platoons are

17 subordinated to them, but so are the reconnaissance and sabotage

18 detachment that every corps had, which, by infiltrating enemy territory,

19 collected information.

20 Intelligence information was also collected from the enemy media,

21 the press, television, and the radio, and from other elements infiltrated

22 into enemy territory, and in various other ways.

23 JUDGE RIAD: Proceed, Mr. Harmon.

24 MR. HARMON: Thank you.

25 JUDGE RIAD: You seem to be worried about the time.

Page 7198

1 MR. HARMON: Well, I'm concerned that I have a large amount of

2 examination to get through with this witness and --

3 JUDGE RIAD: You are sure that you will finish today?

4 MR. HARMON: At the present rate, I'm not sure, that's why I --

5 JUDGE RIAD: Good. Does that mean that you would like to have

6 more time?

7 MR. HARMON: I may. I can give you a better assessment, Your

8 Honours, as the day progresses, but I'm expecting to get done today, but

9 if the answers are as long as this last answer, then I will not get

10 through today.

11 JUDGE RIAD: Because I have information that the witness cannot

12 stay longer, if that's right, than today.

13 MR. HARMON: I don't have that information, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE RIAD: I heard it, but -- so if that's true, you have to

15 bear that in mind and ask us for more time if you need it.

16 MR. HARMON: Yes, thank you very much, Judge Riad.

17 Q. Now, let's turn to another issue, Witness DB, and that is the

18 Bosnian Muslim intercept capabilities and their attempts to intercept your

19 communications. If you could turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 750.

20 MR. HARMON: And Mr. Usher, on the English, I'm going to be

21 referring to page 43, and I have a marked copy. The witness can use my

22 copy once again.

23 Again, Your Honours, 750 is an analysis by the VRS, prepared by

24 the army of Republika Srpska, describing its situation in 1992. And on

25 page 43 I'd like to read from the second full paragraph, about midway in

Page 7199

1 that paragraph.

2 Q. Witness, the report of the VRS says, and I quote:

3 "A special problem is the large number of privately-owned means of

4 communication in the brigades and the lower tactical units, the so-called

5 Motorolas, which cannot be controlled, as well as the undisciplined radio

6 communications of operating staff in intelligence centres and VRS signals

7 units. So far we have registered nine enemy interception groups,

8 exceptionally well-manned and equipped."

9 Now, Witness DB, this is the analysis of your army in 1992. Let

10 me turn -- and this highlights a number of problems. The first problem is

11 that people who were using VRS means of communication were undisciplined;

12 they didn't always abide by the appropriate security requirements. And

13 the second problems it highlights is that the enemy interception groups

14 could listen; they were well-manned and they were well-equipped. That's

15 the assessment of your army in 1992, isn't it? That's the assessment of

16 your army in 1992 in respect of the enemy intercept capabilities, isn't

17 it?

18 A. At the time, and now, I was a senior army officer who graduated

19 from high-level military schools, and for ethical reasons and professional

20 reasons, I consider myself competent to comment on the information that

21 you are now quoting. I consider myself competent to comment on this.

22 Ever since the army exists, emphasis has been on its combat readiness and

23 capabilities, so highlighting our weaknesses and underlining the

24 advantages of the enemy, this is typical of all armies. No one in any

25 army, among superior officers, will say, "We are the best now," "We are

Page 7200

1 superior," "No one can hurt us." On the contrary; all shortcomings are

2 underlined, whereas the advantages of the enemy are emphasised, and that

3 is the logic applied in any army.

4 MR. HARMON: Let us turn to the next exhibit, which will be

5 Prosecutor's Exhibit 825. And for this exhibit, Mr. President, I'm going

6 to ask that it be under seal and that we go into private session to --

7 JUDGE RIAD: Just -- I would like to ask Witness DB, without

8 wasting time: What you said about highlighting the advantages of the

9 enemy, are you just speaking of the equipment of interception or in

10 general, as a general rule, you should always highlight that the enemy is

11 better than you? Is that good for the morale of the soldiers?

12 A. The enemy is never underestimated when working with troops,

13 regarding all the elements of combat readiness, including the ability to

14 intercept messages. For instance, on all our telephone extensions, we

15 have a written message: "Take care. The enemy is listening." This was

16 the rule 10 years ago and 20 years ago, and it still is.

17 MR. HARMON: Are we in private session?

18 THE REGISTRAR: No, we're not.

19 JUDGE RIAD: Private session. Private session, please.

20 [Private session]

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25 [Open session]

Page 7204












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Page 7205

1 THE REGISTRAR: We're in public session.


3 Q. Now, Witness DB, it was possible for the enemy to intercept your

4 telephone calls because, based on your information, the enemy had a very

5 efficient system of interception; is that correct?

6 A. On the basis of this analysis of combat readiness, it is stated

7 there that the enemy did have an efficient system of interception.

8 Q. Now, you were aware, weren't you, that the enemy was indeed

9 focusing on your communications while you were engaged in the Srebrenica

10 and the Zepa operation?

11 A. Yes, I assumed they were doing that.

12 Q. Do you dispute the fact that they did in fact capture

13 communications that were being made by members of the VRS who participated

14 in that operation?

15 A. No.

16 Q. All right. Then let us turn to the next exhibit, if we could,

17 which would be Prosecutor's Exhibit 137. Take a look at that for just a

18 moment, Witness DB.

19 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, could you move the ELMO a little bit

20 forward? Thank you.

21 Q. Have you had a chance to look at Prosecutor's Exhibit 137, Witness

22 DB?

23 MR. HARMON: If it could be placed on the ELMO, then.

24 Q. This is a list of VRS code names that were used during the time

25 period of July and August of 1995. Do you agree with that?

Page 7206

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, let me turn to the item that is the second from the end which

3 is "Bedem." Do you see that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was Bedem the code name for the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. Now, let's --

8 MR. HARMON: I'm finished with this exhibit. Thank you very much,

9 Mr. Usher.

10 Q. Yesterday when you answered a question for my colleague

11 Mr. Petrusic, you answered in the following fashion, and I'm going to read

12 from the LiveNote page 7096, and I'm going to read lines 8 through 21. I

13 will only read part of your answer.

14 My colleague asked you the following question: "In the course of

15 the proceedings so far, we have seen a great deal of markings, and I don't

16 want to put them on the ELMO, but I'm going to give you an example. For

17 example, Zlatar 1 as a name and 01. Can you explain to us what that

18 means, Zlatar 1 and 01?"

19 Now, you gave a long answer, and I'm only going to read part of

20 it, and I will pick it up at line 15. "Then in going through the other

21 code names and a review of them, it states that the rear command post is

22 Zlatar 1, but the forward command post is Zlatar 2, and if we define a

23 reserve post, if that is defined as well and stipulated, then that could

24 be Zlatar 3."

25 Now, I'm going to stop at this part of your answer and ask you,

Page 7207

1 Zlatar 1, when you say the rear command post, what do you mean by that?

2 A. The rear command post is a building or a room accommodating rear

3 organs, that is logistic bodies, which are, as a rule, behind the command

4 post, deep within our territory. There may also be some other corps

5 bodies there, and it must always be ready, should the need arise to pull

6 out our forces and move the basic command post, to take over the role of a

7 command post.

8 Q. When you say "rear command post" -- I'm sorry.

9 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Visnjic.

10 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that we need

11 to clarify the translation. The witness said the rear command post is an

12 area in the ground, if I understand the witness correctly. He didn't mean

13 a building or anything, a piece of ground, which need not be a building or

14 a premise, simply an area on the ground.

15 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. Visnjic.


17 Q. Let me put it in more concrete terms, Witness DB. Where was the

18 rear command post for the Drina Corps in July and August of 1995, by your

19 definition of rear command post?

20 A. In practice, as it was in the command of the Drina Corps, both the

21 command post and the rear command post were right next to one another.

22 Q. And was the rear command post in Vlasenica?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, let me read on in your answer, picking up at line 18 through

25 21. "In the rules and regulations that exist in the army, the mark 01 or

Page 7208

1 02 does not exist anywhere, although, in wartime practice, it is

2 frequently used, that is to say, the commanding officers who were

3 commanders or chiefs or suchlike."

4 So as I understand your answer, as I understand your answer, "01"

5 designated, in the wartime practice, the commander?

6 A. Yes. Yes, the person who is in command of that area, who is in

7 command of that code name, and who introduces himself using that code

8 name.

9 Q. So if we could take a look at the next exhibit, which is

10 Prosecutor's Exhibit 635, Witness, this is an intercepted communication,

11 and it is an interception, and I will read part of it, and I'd like you to

12 comment on it. The participants are Zlatar and possibly Palma.

13 "Z: Give me Palma

14 ?: Sorry?

15 Z: Palma.

16 ?: Just a moment.

17 Z: Is that Palma?

18 P: Yes?

19 Z: Give me 01."

20 Now, 01 would be the commander according to the wartime practice

21 that you've described; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And then if we go down on this intercept further, we see a line

24 that reads, "Tell him it's Zlatar 01 calling and ask what's new over

25 there." Zlatar is the code name for which unit or brigade?

Page 7209

1 A. Zlatar was a secret name of the Drina Corps.

2 Q. So when we -- this intercept refers to Zlatar 01, this refers to

3 the commander of the Drina Corps, in your opinion; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All right. Now, let's go further down this intercept, and we will

6 see -- you can see the portion that says:

7 "They're not able to reach the commander.

8 Z: Yes.

9 P: He said who should he call when he gets a chance?

10 Z: Zlatar 385.

11 P: Zlatar 385?

12 Z: Yes and tell him to hurry up and call me."

13 Now, Witness, this is a conversation with Zlatar 01 who later

14 gives a phone number Zlatar 385. Are you familiar with the digits 385?

15 A. I'll explain briefly. In the preparation for testifying here,

16 lawyer Petrusic asked me what this Zlatar 385 could mean. I answered that

17 there were two possibilities. One of them was that this could be an

18 extension of the three digit switchboard from Han Pijesak, or it could be

19 a number, an identification number from one of the senior officers from

20 the list of identification numbers, and that would be my answer to you.

21 Q. So to clarify your answer, the second part, so this could be a

22 telephone number of a senior officer at Zlatar, which is the command of

23 the Drina Corps?

24 A. It could be an extension, a destination where an extension ends.

25 All the extensions were from the automatic switchboard of Crna Rijeka, or

Page 7210












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Page 7211

1 it could be an identification number denoting a senior officer and his

2 position.

3 Q. All right, thank you very much.

4 We'll now turn our attention to another area, which is the forward

5 command posts generally in -- first of all, let me turn my attention to

6 the forward command post in Krivace which existed, according to your

7 testimony, from approximately the 12th of August until the 2nd -- I'm

8 sorry, the 12th of July until the 2nd of August.

9 Now, Witness DB, where did General Krstic spend his nights when he

10 was at the forward command post in Krivace and later at the other two

11 forward command posts that were set up for the Zepa operation?

12 A. He would inform us that he was going to spend the night not far

13 from that location, in the Kusace village, at the relatives of his wife.

14 Q. Why would he leave the forward command post to spend the night

15 with his relatives?

16 A. We understood that the time, because his health at the time was

17 poor, at least two or three times during the day he would rebandage his

18 leg, take off his prosthetic leg; he would walk with great difficulty, and

19 we had only tents at this forward command post, and there was one

20 demolished barn or something.

21 Q. So the sanitary conditions, living in tents, was not sufficient to

22 meet the medical needs of General Krstic?

23 A. I cannot comment really on his decision to spend the nights

24 elsewhere, but we thought that was primarily for health and sanitary

25 reasons and in view of the available accommodation facilities, because

Page 7212

1 General Krstic spent most of his time on the front line together with his

2 soldiers.

3 Q. Now, let's turn our attention to the forward command post at

4 Pribicevac, which was established on the 5th of July and, according to

5 your testimony, was no longer in existence after the night of the 11th of

6 July.

7 During that period of time, did you ever -- did you stay at the

8 forward command post? Did you spend your night in a tent?

9 A. Yes. I slept in a tent or in a communications vehicle or in a

10 dugout, one of the dugouts which were available there.

11 Q. And how many members of the communications group were with you at

12 the forward command post in Pribicevac?

13 A. About five or six.

14 Q. Now, did the communications centre operate on a 24-hour basis?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So I take it you had shifts?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you tell us how many persons were on a shift and what others

19 were worked?

20 A. During the day, everybody would work; and in nighttime, one person

21 was on duty, taking care of all the devices, all the communications,

22 because during the night we had no combat -- we had no ongoing combat

23 operations.

24 Q. And when you say "everybody would work," what does that mean? Did

25 they work inside the van? Did they work outside the van?

Page 7213

1 A. The coder, the coding person, was always in the vehicle, because

2 that's where the equipment was, and there was another soldier who

3 monitored the work of all the others within the radio network.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. And those who were -- who had been on duty during the night would

6 take the day off.

7 Q. So those two people you've described, they worked inside the van,

8 I take it.

9 A. Since General Krstic was unable to get into the car with his

10 prosthetic leg and his fresh wound, we would always take the radio

11 equipment he used to issue orders out of the vehicle and near a tree or

12 some place where he could sit down, and we would also enable him from the

13 place where he was sitting to use the telephone and contact his superior

14 command.

15 Q. Now, what were your specific duties at that location? What

16 specifically did you do during those few days that the forward command

17 post communications centre existed?

18 A. My principal duty was to ensure quality and uninterrupted

19 communication on all lines, and I also did some other jobs which General

20 Krstic would order me to do.

21 Q. Such as? What other jobs?

22 A. For instance, since there were few of us officers at the forward

23 command post, he would order me to inspect the guards at night, to ensure

24 alertness and see to it that the guards are awake, to check on them

25 briefly. I told you yesterday that he had ordered me to admit UNPROFOR

Page 7214

1 representatives. Sometimes also I would convey one of his messages, but

2 normally, I would concentrate on providing quality and uninterrupted

3 communication.

4 Q. Now, did you ever leave the forward command post communications

5 centre other than the episode you described in respect of the United

6 Nations soldiers?

7 A. No, not from Pribicevac.

8 Q. Now, on the 7th and 8th of July, did you hear every radio

9 communication that was made from the forward command post?

10 A. I cannot confirm that with certainty. If I was right there by the

11 equipment, I would certainly hear it; otherwise there would be one of my

12 soldiers there always who were trained to monitor the quality of

13 communication and see to it that there are no interruptions among any of

14 the participants.

15 Q. Did you hear every radio communication between the 8th of July

16 until the time the communications centre was dismantled, was packed up?

17 A. I think not. I would always concentrate on my job with the

18 equipment when the combat operations were intensive and when there was

19 something important going on.

20 Q. When the equipment broke down -- we heard, for example, the

21 teleprinters, according to General Krstic, frequently broke down. Whose

22 job was it to take care of the teleprinters, to fix the equipment,

23 maintain the equipment?

24 A. I told you yesterday that those breakdowns in communications were

25 not frequent and that I did not agree with that. And I told you always

Page 7215

1 that we carried with us a back-up teleprinter, teletype. There was always

2 the possibility, if a teleprinter would break down, which happened, we

3 could ask by telephone to borrow a teleprinter from the logistics organs

4 and have it taken --

5 Q. I don't mean to interrupt you. I need to -- if you would just

6 answer my question, which was: Who was it who repaired the equipment when

7 there was a mechanical breakdown?

8 A. The equipment was repaired by mechanics, people who were trained

9 to do so.

10 Q. Did you participate in the repairs or were you not trained to do

11 so?

12 A. Some simple things which did not exceed normal maintenance, I

13 could manage.

14 MR. HARMON: Judge Riad, you informed me that between an hour and

15 70 minutes would be an appropriate time. I'm about to move to a different

16 subject, so we've been going for one hour. This would be an appropriate

17 moment.

18 JUDGE RIAD: So would be more logical to stop now?

19 MR. HARMON: Yes.

20 JUDGE RIAD: And would you able to know if you need more time

21 today?

22 MR. HARMON: I will know by the next break.

23 JUDGE RIAD: So that I can inform the staff.

24 MR. HARMON: Yes.

25 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. Anyhow, we are ready, if the information

Page 7216

1 I had is confirmed that the witness cannot stay after today.

2 MR. HARMON: Thank you very much, Judge Riad.

3 JUDGE RIAD: So we'll have a break of 20 minutes. Thank you.

4 --- Recess taken at 10.22 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 10.44 a.m.

6 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Harmon, please proceed.

7 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Judge Riad. If the witness -- if the

8 usher could be given Prosecutor's Exhibits 764/1 through 20.

9 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Harmon, do you have an answer concerning your --

10 MR. HARMON: At the conclusion of this session I should be in a

11 better position to know, not at the beginning. I shall find out as I

12 progress.

13 JUDGE RIAD: Good.

14 MR. HARMON: Now, Mr. Usher, I'm going to call out --

15 JUDGE RIAD: So everybody should be ready to continue after 3.00.

16 That seems to be a precaution.

17 MR. HARMON: All right.

18 JUDGE RIAD: But not for too long.

19 MR. HARMON: Thank you.

20 These exhibits, Your Honours, Prosecutor's Exhibit 764/1 through

21 764/20, were documents that were seized at the Bratunac Brigade pursuant

22 to a search warrant that was issued by the Tribunal.

23 Mr. Usher, if you could place 764/1A on the ELMO.

24 Q. And Witness, this document, as you can see, is a bill, and it is a

25 bill from the Hotel Fontana to the command of the Bratunac Brigade, and as

Page 7217

1 you can see, it is accommodation for your representatives in the Hotel

2 Fontana in July. The total bill on this was 6.341 dinars.

3 Now, let me turn to the next exhibit, and I'll have you comment on

4 the next exhibit, which is 764/20A.

5 MR. HARMON: If that could be placed on the ELMO and the B/C/S

6 given to the witness.

7 Q. Witness, this is also a bill, part of a bill for 1.980 dinars, and

8 it lists the people who stayed at the hotel. And can you tell me, do

9 you -- can you identify the name Goran Stakic? Do you know that name?

10 A. No.

11 Q. How about the next name, Boro Kovacic?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Novica Pajic?

14 A. Yes. I think that during that time, he was chief the staff of the

15 Bratunac Brigade.

16 Q. And the next name, Vukota Vukovic, I believe we identified him

17 yesterday; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. Now, Vidoje -- I'm sorry.

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. Vidoje Blagojevic, he was the commander of the Bratunac Light

22 Infantry Brigade; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And the name Colonel Popovic, who is Colonel Popovic?

25 A. I knew a Lieutenant Colonel Popovic.

Page 7218

1 Q. What position did he have in the Drina Corps?

2 A. In the period for which this bill was issued, he was chief of

3 security of the Drina Corps.

4 Q. If we could turn -- and it appears on the invoice that Colonel

5 Popovic stayed for six nights at the hotel, as did Blagojevic; and Vukovic

6 stayed for a total of 17 nights. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Let's turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 764/8A. This is another bill

9 dated the 15th of July, 1995, and this is accommodation for Colonel

10 Vujadin Popovic for two nights. Now, is this the same Vujadin Popovic you

11 knew to be the commander of security, assistant commander for security?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. If we could turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 764/9A.

14 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President?


16 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I have a remark to make regarding

17 Mr. Harmon's question. Mr. Harmon said that this was accommodation for

18 Colonel Popovic for two nights on the exhibit, on this exhibit as well as

19 the previous ones; however, in the Serbo-Croat document that we have in

20 our possession, no mention is made of the number of nights but only the

21 sum. I wouldn't go into what that means, but in any event, the number of

22 overnights is not mentioned in any of these documents that Mr. Harmon has

23 been reviewing.

24 So I'm not sure what the witness is asked to confirm, the

25 correctness of the invoice or the number of overnight stays. Perhaps we

Page 7219

1 should be more precise.

2 MR. HARMON: I'll be glad to be more precise, Judge Riad.

3 JUDGE RIAD: Okay, thank you. Thank you, Mr. Visnjic.

4 Proceed, Mr. Harmon.

5 MR. HARMON: Could we turn, Mr. Usher, to Prosecutor's Exhibit

6 764/10.

7 Q. Now, this also is an invoice. It's dated the 15th of July, 1995.

8 Can you identify the individual in this, Lieutenant Colonel Krsmanovic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What position did he hold in the Drina Corps?

11 A. I think that, at the time, he was chief of the transportation

12 service in the logistics body.

13 MR. HARMON: And for the benefit of the Chamber, Lieutenant

14 Colonel Krsmanovic appears on the organogram in this position.

15 Let's turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 764/11. This is an invoice

16 dated the 15th of July and it identifies a Colonel Cerovic.

17 Q. Do you know a Colonel Cerovic and what position he held in the

18 Drina Corps command?

19 A. He was the assistant for morale, religious, and legal affairs in

20 the command of the Drina Corps.

21 MR. HARMON: And Your Honours, Colonel Cerovic appears in the

22 organogram in this position.

23 Could we turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 764/9A, which is another

24 invoice for the 15th of July, indicating the number 11 under "amount."

25 Q. Who is Lieutenant Colonel Lazar Acanovic? Do you know that name?

Page 7220

1 A. He worked in the rear services of the Drina Corps. There were

2 some replacements, but I think at this time he was assistant for logistics

3 of the Drina Corps.

4 Q. Again referring to the organogram, Your Honours, Colonel Acanovic

5 appears in this position.

6 Let us turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 764/6. This is a bill dated

7 the 14th of July. It says in the body of the text: "Accommodation in the

8 Hotel Fontana in a three-bed room, 207, on 10, 11 and 12 July," and the

9 amount is 3, and it identifies three individuals: Lieutenant Colonel

10 Milovan Milutinovic. Do you know that individual and what position he

11 held in the VRS?

12 A. I don't know him personally, but I think he could have been a

13 senior officer working in the information service in the Main Staff of the

14 army of Republika Srpska. I know him by name and not personally.

15 Q. The second individual listed is Lieutenant Colonel Slobodan

16 Stancevic. Do you know that individual?

17 A. No.

18 MR. HARMON: Let's turn to the next exhibit, which is Prosecutor's

19 Exhibit 764/7A. This is accommodation in the Hotel Fontana in two

20 identified rooms on 10, 11, and 12 July. And again, to shed light on

21 Mr. Visnjic's concern, the amount listed may well correspond to the number

22 of days that are indicated in the text accompanying this bill. There are

23 some individuals identified: Milutin Milosevic.

24 Q. Do you know that individual? Have you heard of that individual?

25 A. No.

Page 7221

1 Q. Zoran Todorovic?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Zoran Kulic?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Let us turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 764/15A. This is a bill that

6 identifies individuals. It's dated the 23rd of July, 1995. Do you know a

7 Nebojsa Subotic?

8 A. No.

9 Q. A Slobodan Perovic?

10 A. No.

11 Q. A D. Bogojevic?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you know the other two individuals on this bill?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Let's turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 764/18. This is a bill dated

16 the 27th of July. It lists six individuals. Do you know any of those

17 named individuals? Can you identify them?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Let's turn to the next exhibit, which is Prosecutor's Exhibit

20 764/19A, a bill dated the 28th of July, 1995. It identifies five

21 individuals. Can you identify any of those five individuals?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Let us turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 764/2. This is a bill dated

24 the 6th of July, 1995. And the text reads: "Accommodation in Hotel

25 Fontana Bratunac for General Radislav Krstic, room 204, and general's

Page 7222












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7223

1 escorts, Vlado Tosic and Dalibor Krstic, in room 10, on 5/6 July 1995."

2 The two individuals with General Krstic, Vlado Tosic and Dalibor Krstic,

3 do you know those individuals and what position they held?

4 A. Yes, I know them. They were drivers and also the closest escorts

5 of General Krstic.

6 Q. Let's turn to the last exhibit in this particular series,

7 Prosecutor's Exhibit 764/3A, a bill dated the 14th of July, 1995. This

8 identifies accommodations in the Hotel Fontana from 5 to 13 July 1995 for

9 General Krstic, Vladimir Tosic, who you've identified as one of his

10 drivers. Let me turn my attention to the remaining names. Colonel Obrad

11 Vicic, who appears to have stayed in the amount of 1. Who is Colonel

12 Obrad Vicic?

13 A. Colonel Obrad Vicic, at the time, was one of the operations

14 officers in the Drina Corps.

15 Q. What was his relationship in respect of General Krstic?

16 A. Do you mean in the chain of command?

17 Q. De facto, what was his relationship with General Krstic?

18 A. He was at Pribicevac, at the forward command post both at

19 Pribicevac and Zepa. He was the operations officer there, and also

20 Krstic's deputy at the forward command post.

21 Q. At both forward command posts, the one in Srebrenica [sic] and the

22 one in Zepa?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Where is Colonel Obrad Vicic today, do you know?

25 A. In Belgrade. He has retired.

Page 7224

1 Q. Let us turn to Lieutenant Colonel Svetozar Kosoric, who we have

2 identified previously as the chief of intelligence in the intelligence

3 section of the Drina Corps. He appears to have stayed eight units. And

4 the last individual is Dalibor Krstic, who you've identified as the driver

5 of General Krstic. Now, Witness --

6 MR. HARMON: And Mr. Usher, I've completed with this series of

7 exhibits.

8 Q. You mentioned that General Krstic had a new prosthesis and he

9 needed, it was your opinion, sanitary accommodations to take care of his

10 medical situation. General Krstic spent the nights away from the forward

11 command post in Pribicevac, didn't he?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And he spent those nights at the Hotel Bratunac, didn't he?

14 A. Judging by the bills, he would just tell us if anything urgent

15 should arise, that we should reach him through the command of the Bratunac

16 Brigade, because he said that in the evening he would go to the command of

17 the Bratunac Brigade.

18 Q. To pick up his messages or to check on messages?

19 A. No. If anything urgent should happen, that we could reach him

20 through the Bratunac Brigade headquarters, so I thought he was going there

21 to spend the night in one of their premises.

22 Q. Okay. Now, let us turn, then, to -- let me ask you another

23 question, Witness DB. You have mentioned on occasion that you provided a

24 signalsman for General Krstic. When General Krstic would leave the

25 forward command post at night from Pribicevac, and he would go to

Page 7225

1 Bratunac, did he have with him a signalsman?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Now --

4 JUDGE WALD: Excuse me, I just have one question.

5 MR. HARMON: Yes.

6 JUDGE WALD: I think it -- do you -- it's more for you, maybe, to

7 clarify one of your questions, than it is for the witness, but let me ask

8 it anyway and we can decide.

9 On these nights on your question you've mentioned on occasion --

10 well, "He spent those nights at the Hotel Bratunac, didn't he?" That's

11 your question. I don't know which nights. I'm sorry, the screen has gone

12 away, and I just want to clarify which dates we're talking about. I think

13 it's either you can ask the question or --

14 MR. HARMON: I can ask the question.

15 JUDGE WALD: Okay.


17 Q. The operation in Pribicevac, the forward command post existed from

18 the 5th to, according to your testimony, the night of the 11th, correct?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. And each of those nights, General Krstic did not spend the night

21 at the forward command post, he spent the night in Bratunac; am I correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. HARMON: Does that clarify the matter?

24 JUDGE WALD: Yes, it does, thank you.

25 MR. HARMON: Thank you.

Page 7226

1 Q. Now, let's stay focused on the forward command post at Pribicevac,

2 and when was the first time that you saw General Zivanovic at the forward

3 command post?

4 A. I think two or three days prior to the 11th. Sometime around the

5 9th of July or on that particular day.

6 Q. Was that the day when he arrived at the forward command post with

7 General Mladic?

8 A. Yes. According to my recollection, he was always with General

9 Mladic.

10 Q. You had an opportunity to be an observer at the forward command

11 post. Did it appear to you that General Zivanovic had an important role

12 in commanding the operation against Srebrenica?

13 A. According to my recollection, he didn't interfere significantly

14 with the command of the operation, but that the operation initially up to

15 the 9th was under the command of General Krstic.

16 Q. So up to the 9th, General Zivanovic was not -- did not play an

17 important role in directing and commanding the attack?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Is that correct?

20 A. I think that he didn't. That is my impression that I had as a

21 communications man.

22 Q. Now, the arrival of General Mladic at the forward command post was

23 not something that was unusual, based on your experience in the VRS?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In fact, frequently, I believe your testimony was, General Mladic,

Page 7227

1 because he was the commander of the army, would appear at the forward

2 command posts in significant offensive operations; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When General Mladic appeared at the forward command post with

5 General Zivanovic, did he consult with General Krstic?

6 A. In any event, they did talk about something.

7 Q. Were you a participant in those conversations, or did you merely

8 observe from afar?

9 A. I did not participate in those conversations.

10 Q. Did it appear to you that there was a disagreement on the

11 operation itself when General Mladic arrived?

12 A. Some particular disagreement I did not notice, but I just know

13 that, once General Mladic arrived, he stayed very briefly at the forward

14 command post; and then with General Krstic and General Zivanovic, he went

15 to the observation post, which was about 500 metres away from the forward

16 command post, from which the whole area of Srebrenica can be seen; and

17 from then on, I could follow events only over the radio waves, so I

18 couldn't follow personally or visually. I couldn't observe things.

19 Q. And to the best of your recollection, this was the 9th of July,

20 correct?

21 A. I think that General Mladic arrived for the first time to the

22 forward command post about two days prior to the military fall of

23 Srebrenica, so I have roughly judged that it could be the 9th of July.

24 Q. Now, when -- let me withdraw that.

25 General Mladic was the chief of the army, and it was within his

Page 7228

1 prerogative as chief of the army to make changes in the strategic plan to

2 capture the enclave of Srebrenica, correct?

3 A. That is his right as the commander.

4 Q. And you testified that during the past -- during your past

5 experiences with General Mladic, it is customary for him to get on the

6 radio and exhort his troops, congratulate his troops, correct?

7 A. If there was success, he would congratulate them and urge them on

8 in the implementation of their combat assignments.

9 Q. So when there was success, it was not uncommon for General Mladic

10 to issue additional orders?

11 A. It was not unusual.

12 Q. Nor was it unusual for him to urge his troops to move on, to

13 advance?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, you have testified earlier that you did not hear every -- you

16 were not present around the command communications centre to hear every

17 communication that was being issued between the 8th and the 11th of July,

18 if I recall your testimony accurately.

19 A. Yes, but immediately after saying that, I also added that I would

20 focus my attention on the equipment at times when combat activities were

21 highly dynamic and intensive. As far as I remember, that is what I said,

22 and that was quite logical.

23 Q. Now, when -- and you heard in this situation, you have reported to

24 this Trial Chamber, that General Mladic urged the troops on into

25 Srebrenica, correct?

Page 7229

1 A. He urged them to continue with the attack after having reached the

2 positions they had reached.

3 Q. And at one point I think you told us that he urged General -- I'm

4 sorry, Colonel or Lieutenant Colonel Vinko Pandurevic to proceed up a

5 particular axis, avoiding a potential point of resistance, a mountain of

6 some kind?

7 A. Not Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic, but I said that he urged

8 Colonel Andric, with his unit, to go round that feature.

9 Q. Okay. I stand corrected, thank you.

10 When General Mladic gave the order that you have reported to

11 Colonel Andric, was he in your presence or was he away from you? Did you

12 hear this order over the radio?

13 A. I heard it over the radio, the radio equipment.

14 Q. And was General Krstic with General Mladic at the time he gave --

15 Mladic gave the order to Colonel Andric?

16 A. I think he was.

17 Q. Do you know and can you tell the Judges what degree of

18 consultation between General Mladic and General Krstic preceded the order

19 that you heard on the radio, urging Colonel Andric to proceed?

20 A. If there were any consultations, then they were between them on

21 the spot, wherever they happened to be. So I cannot tell what kind of

22 consultations they had, if any; I'm just telling you what I heard over the

23 radio transmitters.

24 Q. Now, when General Mladic gave the order to some of the units to

25 proceed toward Srebrenica, was General Zivanovic still the commander of

Page 7230

1 the Drina Corps, and was General Krstic still the Chief of Staff of the

2 Drina Corps?

3 A. I think they were.

4 Q. Now, when there is a strategic change by the chief of the army, in

5 other words, in this case move from position "A" to position "B," whose

6 role is it to ensure that the orders issued by General Mladic were

7 implemented?

8 A. If General Mladic issues an order in person to the Corps Commander

9 or to the Chief of Staff of the corps, then the latter is the one to

10 implement those orders.

11 Q. And if General Mladic issues an order to a brigade commander,

12 let's take Colonel Andric, for example, is it the -- does General

13 Zivanovic and General Krstic have to ensure that General Mladic's order is

14 implemented?

15 A. The orders given by General Mladic in those days were carried out

16 directly. I heard when Colonel Andric simply said, "Yes, sir" and

17 proceeded forward.

18 Q. Now, let me ask you, did you, from your position, hear at any time

19 General Krstic disagree with the orders that were given by General Mladic

20 to advance into Srebrenica?

21 A. No, I did not hear that.

22 Q. When General Mladic issued the orders to proceed into Srebrenica,

23 did the chain of command within the Drina Corps remain intact?

24 A. I know that commanders executed orders given them then by General

25 Mladic, without objection.

Page 7231

1 Q. And the chain of command, the normal chain of command in the Drina

2 Corps structure, was not ruptured by virtue of General Mladic giving an

3 order to Colonel Andric to advance into Srebrenica?

4 A. If I had been in Mladic's shoes, I would have given -- I would

5 have conveyed that order to the commander of the corps or the person in

6 control of the operation. I don't understand the question, because the

7 chain of command can never be broken.

8 Q. In fact, the chain of command remained intact throughout the

9 Srebrenica operation, didn't it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, let me ask you -- let me change the subject. We're going to

12 switch gears, Witness DB, and we're going to focus our attention at this

13 point on the 10th Sabotage Detachment.

14 MR. HARMON: And if the witness could be shown Prosecutor's

15 Exhibit 158, please.

16 Q. Witness, do you recognise the individuals -- first of all, do you

17 recognise General Krstic in that picture?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And do you recognise the individuals with the numbers 1, 2, and 3

20 on them? Not personally, but do you recognise the unit?

21 A. I couldn't say. I don't know -- recognise these insignia and I

22 don't recognise anyone in person. I know approximately the insignia of

23 the 10th Sabotage Unit, but I don't seem to recognise any of these people

24 in the picture.

25 Q. All right. Well, this isn't the clearest of pictures, but these

Page 7232

1 individuals, numbers 1, 2, and 3, have been identified by a previous

2 witness, Drazen Erdemovic, as being his colleagues within the 10th

3 Sabotage Detachment. And do you know who the commander of the 10th

4 Sabotage Detachment was?

5 A. In that period, it was Lieutenant Miso Pelemis.

6 Q. And did you see Lieutenant Miso Pelemis when you were at the

7 forward command post or a participant in the Srebrenica operation?

8 A. I don't think so. I knew that his unit was located there and that

9 they had arrived much later than we did, around the 9th or the 10th

10 perhaps, but I saw his signalsman.

11 Q. Now, let's talk about that. When do you recall seeing his -- the

12 10th Sabotage Detachment's signalsman? Approximately what day?

13 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, I'm done with this exhibit. Thanks.

14 A. Well, I think it was two or three days after the commencement of

15 combat operations.

16 Q. So -- okay. Now, where did you see him?

17 A. I saw him in the area of Pribicevac.

18 Q. At the forward command post?

19 A. In the area of Pribicevac, not exactly on the location of the

20 forward command post, but in that village.

21 Q. All right. And was he accompanied by anybody, this signalsman?

22 A. I don't remember. I only know that we discussed communications,

23 and I asked him whether his unit was there and he said yes. Then I asked

24 him about the communications system, since they were not in our plan,

25 whether he had any information would they need communication lines with

Page 7233

1 the forward command post. He said he didn't know. He said they had

2 Motorolas and they had internal communications. That was the unit which

3 reluctantly carried those devices which we had, because they were too

4 heavy for them, and they carried only Motorolas for the most part.

5 Q. Now, when you say "in the village of Pribicevac," I'm trying to

6 get you to recall, if you can, the distance from the forward command post

7 where you had communication with this signalsman. Was it within ten

8 metres, a hundred metres?

9 A. Yes. Well, about 100 metres. He was going toward the observation

10 post because he was a signalsman, and since Srebrenica is in a deep

11 valley, I concluded then that his unit had some special axis [Realtime

12 transcript read in error "access"] through a canyon, and he had to remain

13 on the top there in order to cover the movements of his unit with his

14 communications. So he was passing by the forward command post towards

15 that elevation, and that's when I stopped him and asked him about the

16 communications.

17 Q. And at the time you stopped him, was General Krstic at the forward

18 command post?

19 A. He was either at the forward command post or at the observation

20 post, which was about 400 or 500 metres away from the forward command

21 post. He was in one of those places for sure, because I saw him in the

22 middle of the day.

23 Q. So the observation post where the signalsman from the 10th

24 Sabotage Battalion or Detachment was going was the observation post where

25 General Krstic was located; is that correct?

Page 7234

1 A. Well, that is close by that feature.

2 Q. Now, General Krstic was aware that the 10th Sabotage Detachment

3 had arrived on either the 9th or the 10th of July, wasn't he?

4 A. I think he knew that this unit had arrived.

5 Q. Now, let me ask you a little something about the communications.

6 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, excuse me, if I may

7 say very briefly. In line 13, it was interpreted that the unit had a

8 special access through the canyon, and the witness said that the unit had

9 a special direction, which is "axis" in English.

10 JUDGE RIAD: Can we verify that?

11 MR. HARMON: The transcript -- the English transcript, Witness DB,

12 says, "I concluded then that the unit had some special access through a

13 canyon." Can you clarify what you meant when you said that?

14 A. Their route, the direction of their movement.

15 Q. Thank you very much. Now, let's talk about the communications

16 that was available to the 10th Sabotage Detachment. I believe you said

17 they were Motorolas. Those are hand-held devices, are they not?

18 A. They usually used that kind of equipment, those devices.

19 Q. Now, you're a military man, Witness DB. There was active combat

20 going on, offensive operations in Srebrenica. The 10th Sabotage

21 Detachment appeared. They appeared to be attacking in a certain direction

22 toward Srebrenica. There were other Drina Corps units, such as the Drina

23 Wolves, also advancing in the same direction; correct?

24 A. No. Two units cannot use the same direction to attack.

25 Q. You misunderstood me. Perhaps I wasn't clear. The objective was

Page 7235

1 in the same general direction, and when one conducts offensive operations,

2 there's usually a unit to your right and a unit to your left; correct?

3 A. Right.

4 Q. And from a military point of view, it is absolutely imperative

5 that the unit on the right know about the unit on the left and the

6 position of each unit; correct?

7 A. Absolutely.

8 Q. And the reason that's true is because units from the same side, if

9 they are not in communication, may well find themselves casualties because

10 the -- one of the units may fire upon the unit, thinking it is the enemy;

11 correct?

12 A. Correct. That happens sometimes too.

13 Q. So when the 10th Sabotage Detachment was advancing along a

14 particular axis, is it your opinion that the 10th Sabotage Detachment had

15 to coordinate with the units on its right and the units on its left?

16 A. That is correct. That is why I discussed with their signalsman

17 the arrangements and we tried to resolve that problem.

18 Q. Now, we've seen earlier in documents that I've presented to you

19 that Motorolas are interceptable communications. By that, I mean they are

20 capable of being intercepted by the enemy.

21 A. Correct. That's why I didn't use them.

22 Q. Now, you've also said that General Krstic, General Mladic were

23 together during this time period that the offensive operation -- well, let

24 me rephrase that question -- that General Mladic and General Krstic were

25 together during the offensive operations.

Page 7236












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13 English transcripts.













Page 7237

1 A. They were together in the period when General Mladic was at the

2 forward command post.

3 Q. Now, General Krstic and General Mladic had Motorolas with them

4 during the period of this operation, didn't they?

5 A. I don't know about General Mladic because I was not at the

6 observation post, but I think that General Krstic could not have had a

7 Motorola under any circumstances because we had protected communications

8 with all the units that were under his command, and I think it would have

9 been quite illogical for him to use a Motorola. I don't know who he could

10 have communicated with through a Motorola.

11 Q. Now, did you ever tell an investigator from the office of the

12 Prosecutor that General Mladic and General Krstic had Motorolas and

13 communicated with them during the Srebrenica operation?

14 A. They were together, the two of them were together. If you mean

15 the communication between them, or you mean their communication with the

16 units?

17 Q. No, my question is this: Did you ever tell an investigator,

18 Jean-Rene Ruez, that General Mladic and General Krstic had Motorolas and

19 communicated with them during the Srebrenica operation?

20 A. It's possible that I have said that about General Mladic, for

21 instance, because he talked over these devices without any concern about

22 interception.

23 MR. HARMON: Could we have Prosecutor's Exhibit 818 shown to the

24 witness, please. If you would just show it to the witness first so he can

25 examine it, and then we'll put it onto ELMO.

Page 7238

1 Q. And Witness, I'd like to direct your attention to General Krstic,

2 and particularly his left hand. Now, this is not a particularly

3 good-quality photograph, it's taken from a video, but what does it appear

4 is in the left hand of General Krstic?

5 A. I cannot be sure, Mr. Prosecutor. You probably assume it's a

6 Motorola, in view of your preceding questions.

7 Q. Does that appear to be an antenna sticking out ahead of General

8 Krstic's hand? Let me try to assist you --

9 A. No, no, I really can't.

10 Q. Let me try to assist you a little further with this. We're going

11 to play a film of this particular section, and it's going to be played in

12 slow motion, and I'd like you -- and I'll play it more than once, but I'd

13 like you to pay attention to General Krstic and what is in his hand. So

14 if we could have Prosecutor's Exhibit 145/2 played, and we may replay this

15 more than once.

16 This is a film taken on the 11th of July, Witness.

17 [Videotape played]


19 Q. Now, Colonel Trivic is on the right. He has a Motorola in his

20 hand, doesn't he?

21 A. Yes, that was it.

22 Q. You need to see that film again?

23 A. I don't think so. I must admit that the film is much clearer than

24 the photograph, and at one point -- we can repeat it, perhaps -- he was

25 really holding something in his hand, and it looks like an antenna.

Page 7239

1 Q. And does a Motorola hand-held communication device have an antenna

2 similar to the one you saw in this film?

3 A. Antennas vary in length, but there is one which can be three or

4 four, up to 20 centimetres long.

5 Q. So let me ask you finally, in your opinion, is General Krstic

6 carrying a Motorola in the film that you just saw?

7 A. I cannot say with certainty. I cannot confirm with certainty, but

8 he's holding something in his hand which looks like an antenna. I cannot

9 see the device, but there is something like an antenna since that's what

10 we're discussing.

11 Q. Would it assist you to see the film again, or would it not assist

12 you?

13 A. I've followed the hand. The device is as big as a fist,

14 approximately, so I can't see the device, but I can clearly see something

15 like an antenna.

16 Q. All right. Well, we will not pursue that topic any further.

17 Thank you very much. Actually, I will ask you one additional question.

18 Witness, these hand-held devices, if that is a Motorola device,

19 and if the 10th Sabotage Detachment had Motorolas, and if General Mladic

20 had a Motorola, were both Generals Mladic and Krstic capable of

21 communicating with the 10th Sabotage Detachment via Motorola?

22 A. If everybody had the same device, the same equipment, and they

23 were all following the same plan and the same frequencies, then they could

24 hear each other.

25 Q. All right.

Page 7240

1 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I'm about to go into a different

2 subject, and I have, frankly, lost track of the time. I don't know how

3 much time is remaining to me in this segment, so --

4 JUDGE RIAD: How much time do you need for this segment?

5 MR. HARMON: Probably 15 minutes.

6 JUDGE RIAD: Can we have a break now, perhaps?

7 MR. HARMON: That would be fine.

8 JUDGE RIAD: Good, then you will have more time. We'll have a

9 break of 20 minutes.

10 --- Recess taken at 11.37 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 12.05 p.m.

12 JUDGE RIAD: Please proceed.

13 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Judge Riad.

14 Q. Witness DB, I'd like to focus your attention now on the 11th of

15 July, which is the day when Srebrenica was entered, the town of Srebrenica

16 was entered by the VRS soldiers. I'm going to summarise your testimony of

17 that day, and you can tell me if I have correctly understood your

18 testimony. But in reading your testimony, your testimony said that

19 Generals Mladic, Krstic, and Zivanovic went into Srebrenica on the 11th of

20 July at 1700 or 1800 hours, that they never returned to the forward

21 command post, that you remained at the forward command post until

22 approximately 1900 hours, when you packed up your communications centre

23 and departed for Bratunac through Potocari and, when you left, there was

24 no other form of communications remaining at the forward command post.

25 Did I fairly summarise your testimony of yesterday?

Page 7241

1 A. Yes. They didn't come back to the forward command post while I

2 was there. You said they never went back after that, but I think I said

3 that no one came to the forward command post while I was there, which

4 means until about 1900 hours.

5 Q. And other than that, I fairly summarised your testimony?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, you testified that you packed up the communications vehicle,

8 and I'm interested in the term "packed up." Does that mean that you

9 disassembled the communications facilities in and around the forward

10 command post, put them in your communications vehicle, and essentially

11 departed Pribicevac?

12 A. All the elements of the communications centre that I had installed

13 on behalf of the Drina Corps I packed up and left Pribicevac. Only minor

14 elements could remain at the forward command post, wire connections of the

15 Bratunac Brigade and the battalion that was there, but I think that they

16 too, with the troops, had gone forward.

17 Q. When you packed up the communications vehicle and you went down to

18 Bratunac and then later that evening went to Vlasenica, was the

19 communications vehicle functional? Could it communicate by, for example,

20 teleprinter?

21 A. In what period?

22 Q. From the time of approximately 1900 hours on the 11th, when you

23 left Pribicevac, to the time you arrived in Vlasenica that evening, around

24 midnight.

25 A. No. It was not possible to communicate via teleprinter. The

Page 7242

1 closest teleprinter there was was in the command of the Bratunac Brigade,

2 in their communications centre.

3 Q. And could you continue to communicate via radio from the

4 communications vehicle during the same period of time I've just mentioned?

5 A. A soldier with a mobile radio transmitter stayed on in Bratunac on

6 the 11th to the 12th, and he was at General Krstic's disposal and he was

7 able to use that communication to communicate with the directly

8 subordinated units participating in the operation Krivaja 95. He could

9 use elements and communications of the communications centre in the

10 Bratunac Brigade headquarters when he was there, but the communications I

11 had packed up could not be used by him.

12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... did not in fact communicate

13 with anybody; is that correct?

14 A. I don't know whether he communicated with anybody. I told you --

15 Q. I'm sorry. You misunderstood what I was saying. The

16 communications vehicle that you had did not engage in any form of

17 communications from the time you left Pribicevac through the period of

18 time when you arrived at Vlasenica headquarters around midnight?

19 A. There was no communication from that vehicle.

20 MR. HARMON: Now, let me turn to the testimony of General Krstic

21 and read this to you.

22 And for the benefit of counsel and Your Honours, I'm referring to

23 the English language version 19 October 2000, page 6198, lines 6 through

24 23.

25 And to put this in context for you, Witness DB, General Krstic is

Page 7243

1 testifying about the events on the 11th of July and after he has conducted

2 his walk through town with General Mladic and General Zivanovic.

3 Q. And my colleague Mr. McCloskey asked General Krstic the following

4 questions: "So you left Srebrenica and went to Bratunac?" Krstic: "No,

5 I didn't leave Srebrenica for Bratunac. Immediately after we had received

6 the order and had been informed about the meeting, the time of the meeting

7 and my presence there, I went back to the Pribicevac forward command post

8 along the Srebrenica-Bojna-Zeleni Jadar-Pribicevac axis, so I went back."

9 "Q. Who did you find at Pribicevac?

10 A. At the Pribicevac forward command post, I found Colonel

11 Vicic, Lieutenant Colonel Kosoric, and the commander of

12 the staff command, Lieutenant Amovic.

13 Q. So those were probably already evening hours?

14 A. Yes. It was already evening, around eight.

15 Q. Did you at that point leave Pribicevac and go to

16 Bratunac?

17 A. After I had briefed Colonel Vicic about what General

18 Mladic had ordered, that is, that the units should stop

19 at the lines and stabilise their positions, I ordered

20 Colonel Vicic to continue monitoring the situation in the

21 units. After that, I left for Bratunac along the

22 Pribicevac-Sase-Bratunac route."

23 That concludes this portion of the transcript.

24 Now, the units that General Krstic asked Colonel Vicic to monitor

25 were the units that were participating in the offensive operations against

Page 7244

1 Srebrenica, and my question to you, Witness DB, is, how could Colonel

2 Vicic monitor the situation of the units that were engaged in the

3 offensive operations if he had no communications at Pribicevac?

4 A. So all three of them, General Krstic, Vicic, and Kosoric, after I

5 had left, returned to Pribicevac. That is what General Krstic said in his

6 statement. Is that correct?

7 Q. Let me -- what is correct is that when General Krstic returned, he

8 identified Colonel Vicic, Lieutenant Colonel Kosoric, and Lieutenant

9 Amovic as being present.

10 A. A soldier with a mobile device always accompanied General Krstic.

11 If what General Krstic said is correct, then it is quite possible that

12 they used that device, that Colonel Vicic used that device that

13 accompanied General Krstic.

14 Q. My question is this, however: How could Colonel Vicic monitor the

15 situation in the units if he did not have communications available to him

16 at the forward command post?

17 A. If it is correct that he monitored the situation in the unit, he

18 might perhaps have used the device that was with General Krstic, or the

19 device of the Bratunac Brigade forward command post if Colonel Blagojevic

20 returned to Pribicevac with that device. Those were the only

21 possibilities. There were no others, technically.

22 Q. So your answer is that it is possible that Colonel Vicic could

23 have communicated with General Krstic in Bratunac from the Pribicevac

24 forward command post on the night of the 11th of July?

25 A. No, he couldn't. If he used a radio communication with units from

Page 7245

1 Pribicevac, but he could not communicate with anyone in Bratunac.

2 Q. How do you suppose General -- I mean, if the situation developed

3 that there was a major problem with the units that were operating in

4 Srebrenica -- let me give you a hypothetical. Let's assume the 28th

5 Division reappeared and started offensive operations -- or

6 counter-offensive operations against the units that were VRS units. How

7 was Colonel Vicic, who was supposed to be monitoring the situation of

8 those units, supposed to convey a message to the command that was in

9 Bratunac?

10 A. Technically, it was not possible. It was not possible to

11 communicate a message from Pribicevac to Bratunac.

12 Q. Now, is it possible that -- is it possible, Witness DB, that you

13 could be confused as to when you left the forward command post?

14 A. I told you that I left about 1900 hours, maybe 1930, on the 11th,

15 because, judging by my movement when I passed through Potocari, darkness

16 had just fallen; and when I reached Bratunac, it was already quite dark,

17 and I'm absolutely sure of that.

18 Q. Is it possible, Witness DB, that you could be confused on the date

19 when you left?

20 A. No. We discussed that with the investigators, because after I

21 arrived at Bratunac, I was present immediately at the first meeting, held

22 at 2200 hours in the Bratunac Brigade headquarters, so it is not possible

23 under any circumstances.

24 MR. HARMON: Let me turn my attention now to Defence Exhibit 80,

25 and if the witness could be given Defence Exhibit 80. If you could place

Page 7246












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7247

1 the English version on the ELMO.

2 Q. Now, Witness, do you recognise this document?

3 A. May I read it?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. I don't know. I don't remember ever having seen this document.

6 Q. Let me first of all read this -- what General Krstic had to say

7 about this document.

8 MR. HARMON: And Your Honours, that is on the English language

9 version of the transcript of the 19th of October. I'm starting on page

10 6199 and I will read over to the following page, 6200, line 14.

11 Q. My colleague, Mr. Petrusic, was examining General Krstic at the

12 time, and he asked, "Could we have Exhibit 80, please." Question by

13 Mr. Petrusic:

14 "So you reached the forward command post at Pribicevac

15 from Srebrenica, you issued certain assignments to

16 Colonel Vicic; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Exhibit 80 bears the number 03/4-1617, dated the 11th of

19 July, 1995. It is issued by the Main Staff of the army

20 of the Republika Srpska by assistant commander Major

21 General Milan Gvero to the Drina Corps command at the

22 forward command post number 1. Were you familiar with

23 the contents of this document?

24 A. After I went back to the forward command post at

25 Pribicevac from Srebrenica, I was given this document and

Page 7248

1 was familiar with its content. It is directly addressed

2 to the Drina Corps of the forward command post number 1

3 of the Drina Corps at Pribicevac. Just as I was familiar

4 with the previous warning with respect to UNPROFOR, so I

5 also studied the document sent by the assistant commander

6 for morale, legal, and religious issues, General Gvero."

7 And that ends his answer.

8 Now, I'd like you to focus your attention on the exhibit itself,

9 and one can see that this exhibit, in the upper left-hand corner, has been

10 issued by the Main Staff on the 11th of July, and there are two

11 addressees, one of which is the Drina Corps forward command post number 1,

12 and it is signed by assistant commander Major General Milan Gvero.

13 Now, you have in front of you -- my colleague.

14 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, before the question

15 is put to the witness, for the benefit of the witness, the interpreter

16 said -- misinterpreted something as if General Krstic had sat with General

17 Gvero, but in fact he had read it afterwards.

18 MR. HARMON: That's correct. He did not sit with General Gvero,

19 and we would so stipulate.

20 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Visnjic.


22 Q. Let us take a look at the document that General Krstic says he

23 received at the forward command post on the night of the 11th. First of

24 all, the form of the document. Can you tell me, is this a document that

25 was sent by teleprinter?

Page 7249

1 A. Yes. This has been processed by teleprinter.

2 Q. Now, on the -- referring to the B/C/S version, Defence Exhibit

3 80B, do you see some handwriting in the lower right-hand corner of this

4 document?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And this is a notation as to the date and the time when this

7 document was received; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And this is a document that General Krstic says he received at the

10 forward command post. There appears to be a signature next to that

11 document. Can you identify that signature, please?

12 A. I have been trying to do that from the very beginning in order to

13 see whether this document was received at the forward command post -- I'm

14 thinking of the encoder or somewhere else -- but I assume that this

15 document was received at the forward command post, because it doesn't have

16 the stamp when the coder enters the information which is now inscribed in

17 the lower right-hand corner.

18 Q. So normally the -- at the Drina Corps headquarters, for example,

19 the Drina Corps command, there's actually a stamp that has "received" and

20 "processed," and it shows the date and the time; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And at the forward command post, was this the traditional way that

23 you would note when telecommunications were received, in this form?

24 A. I think that we didn't have a sufficient number of stamps, so I

25 assume that this was a document that was received outside the command of

Page 7250

1 the Drina Corps, so I assume it was received at the forward command post.

2 MR. HARMON: Thank you very much. Let's turn to the next

3 document, which is Prosecutor's Exhibit 830. And if the witness could be

4 shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 830, please.

5 Now, you have the B/C/S version, and if the first page of the

6 English version could be placed on the ELMO, Mr. Usher.

7 Take a moment to examine that document, Witness DB. The substance

8 isn't terribly important. I'm going to be asking you about certain

9 features on this document.

10 Q. Now, Witness, this is a document that is dated the 11th of July,

11 1995. It was issued -- on the B/C/S version you can see it. It was

12 issued for the commander, Major General Zivanovic. And we will come to

13 that detail in a minute. This order was issued to a number of commands,

14 including the forward command post. Can you, by looking at this document,

15 and particularly page 2 of this document, if we could have that on the

16 ELMO, there appears to be a stamp at the bottom of this document. This is

17 a document that was not received at the forward command post. Can you

18 tell me, to the best of your ability, where this document was received?

19 A. This document was drafted in the Drina Corps command. It was

20 typed out over there on a typewriter and carried to the communications

21 centre, processed probably on a teleprinter, in terms of encoding, and at

22 2250 hours, the operator or encoder gave the telegram or message to the

23 teleprinter station in the command of the Drina Corps to dispatch it to

24 the listed commands. And then this document, such as we see it, a copy of

25 it, was sent back to the mailing department of the Drina Corps command

Page 7251

1 and, as such, it was archived, and we have a copy here before us. I don't

2 know if I have been clear. Have you been able to follow?

3 Q. The "received" stamp. This document was sent at some -- to

4 various locations, and it was received on the 11th of July at 2230 hours,

5 according to the stamp.

6 A. Please, I would like to make myself quite clear, because this is

7 my speciality. When the encryptor or encoder in the Drina Corps received

8 this to encrypt it and send it to all the units, he signed that he

9 received this document just as it now stands, at 2230 hours. Then he

10 encrypted it, and to do that he needed 20 minutes. And at 2250 -- it is

11 illegible, the word "processed" here. At 2250, he handed it over to the

12 teleprinter station, to the Drina Corps command, so that they could

13 forward it on by teleprinter to all the commands listed here at the

14 beginning of the document.

15 Q. So it was sent out from the Drina Corps command at 2250 hours to

16 the various addressees?

17 A. It means immediately after 2250, without any delay, it was sent to

18 all the units.

19 Q. Now, let me ask you two minor details about this document. When

20 this document was received by the addressees, it did not bear a signature

21 because you could not send a signed document over the teleprinter, could

22 you?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Second question -- and I point this out for Your Honours. On the

25 B/C/S version -- and Witness, you can help us with this -- there appears

Page 7252

1 next to the word "commandant" the word "za." Do you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What does "za" mean?

4 A. At this time, when all this was being created, it is quite certain

5 that both General Zivanovic and General Krstic were attending the meeting

6 in Bratunac. And then probably an order arrived from the Main Staff to

7 the command of the Drina Corps in Vlasenica, and then the operations

8 officer in the Drina Corps -- he may have been on duty, Colonel Predrag

9 Jocic, because I see his signature here, so I assume it is his

10 signature -- in the absence of both the commander and the Chief of Staff

11 at headquarters, he wrote it out, this same order from the Main Staff, and

12 had it sent to all units. I assume that is what happened.

13 Q. So the word "za" signifies that Predrag Jocic signed on behalf of

14 the commander, General Zivanovic?

15 MR. HARMON: And I note for the record, Your Honour, in the

16 English translation of this exhibit, Prosecutor's Exhibit 840 [sic], there

17 is no "for" in the signature block area. If one reads the English

18 translation, one would assume that Major General Zivanovic himself signed

19 this, so this document needs to be corrected for the record.

20 Now we will turn to our last exhibit in this series, Witness DB.

21 If I could have Prosecutor's Exhibit 831.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me, Mr. Harmon. In your previous

23 statement, page 56, 10, you said "Exhibit 840."

24 MR. HARMON: I meant Exhibit 830, and the record should be

25 corrected. Thank you. If you would give the witness the B/C/S version.

Page 7253

1 Just a moment, please.

2 Have Your Honours received Prosecutor's Exhibit 831?

3 JUDGE WALD: We have 833.

4 MR. HARMON: We need 831 distributed, so ...

5 Take a moment to examine that document if you would, Witness DB,

6 while it's being distributed to the parties.

7 Mr. Usher, I need the English version of this placed on the ELMO,

8 please.

9 Q. Now, Witness, this is a document that in -- was issued by the

10 Drina Corps command on the 11th of July. And this is a document that is

11 identical, apparently, in substance to the previous document, and it was

12 addressed to, among other locations, the IKM DK, which was the Drina Corps

13 forward command post. Do you see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, if we could turn to the last page.

16 MR. HARMON: And Mr. Usher, if you would place my copy of the

17 B/C/S version on the ELMO.

18 Q. Witness, this is a document that was also received at the forward

19 command post, was it not?

20 A. Comparing it with the previous document which was sent by General

21 Gvero, it is obvious that the same encoding officer, encoder, received

22 both documents.

23 Q. Now, my question is in respect of Prosecutor's 831, the signature

24 block, the handwritten "received" block, is identical, is it not, to the

25 same document that I showed you two exhibits ago that General Krstic says

Page 7254

1 he received at the forward command post?

2 A. The signature, it's the signature of the same encoder or operator.

3 Q. And not only is the signature identical to the exhibit that was

4 received by General Krstic at the forward command post, but the print and

5 the script and the numbers are identical, aren't they?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, Prosecutor's Exhibit 831 -- what time was this received at

8 the forward command post at Pribicevac, according to the notation made on

9 the document?

10 A. It says here at 2350 hours.

11 Q. Now, Witness, do you still maintain that the communications centre

12 of the forward command post left at about 1900 hours?

13 A. What I maintain is that all components of the communications

14 centre which I had installed for the commanding of the Srebrenica

15 operation -- now, I mean the encoding officer and all the components of

16 the communication centre -- left with me around 1900 hours. And I'm now

17 busy thinking and trying to get all the pieces to fit together in view of

18 this possibility, of this situation. I cannot decipher the signature of

19 the encoding operator and understand where this document could have been

20 received.

21 Q. Well, one possibility is that you have simply mistaken the date

22 when you dismantled the forward command post. Is that a possibility?

23 A. No, that is absolutely not possible.

24 Q. All right.

25 MR. HARMON: Well, Your Honours, it is the Prosecution's

Page 7255

1 submission that the communication centre at the forward command post did

2 indeed remain on the night of the 11th and the morning of the 12th.

3 Q. Let us turn to another issue -- thank you very much for examining

4 those documents, Witness DB. Let me turn to another aspect of your

5 testimony, and that is your trip through Potocari on the evening of the

6 11th. And that trip took you through Potocari around dusk, you left

7 around 1900 hours, and in your testimony you said that you saw elements of

8 the Drina Corps mingled with refugees and with UN soldiers in and around

9 the UN compound at Potocari.

10 Now, this Trial Chamber has heard the testimonies of numerous UN

11 soldiers and officers who were present in Potocari on the 10th, 11th,

12 12th, and ensuing days, and the testimony of those UN soldiers and

13 officers is uniform in the point that there were no Bosnian Serb elements

14 in and around the refugees and around them until the morning of the 12th

15 of July, 1995.

16 In addition to that, Witness, the Trial Chamber has heard the

17 testimonies of numerous Bosnian Muslims who were in and around Potocari,

18 and it was their testimonies, again uniformly on this point, that the

19 Bosnian Serb soldiers did not appear in and around the compound until the

20 12th.

21 Now, Witness, again let me ask you a question I've asked you

22 before. Do you still maintain that you went down through Potocari on the

23 11th of July? And you can answer me that "yes" or "no."

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. All right. Now, let's talk about the elements of the VRS that you

Page 7256

1 saw in and around Potocari. You've testified that they included elements

2 of perhaps the Bratunac Brigade because you saw them conversing with the

3 Muslim population. You also saw elements of the Drina Wolves, did you

4 not?

5 A. I was asked similar questions on several occasions by the

6 investigator in April, and I told him the same thing as I will tell you

7 now. Indeed, among this enormous crowd of civilians, I noticed a small

8 number of soldiers of the army of Republika Srpska. I don't know whether

9 those were small groups of the 10th Sabotage Detachment of the Drina

10 Wolves or the Bratunac Brigade, but that was a small group of our soldiers

11 and, in my testimony, I said that they looked to me as a small number of

12 people curious to know what was going on.

13 Q. Witness DB --

14 A. When I --

15 Q. -- I'm sorry to interrupt you. Again, I have my eye on the clock,

16 and you don't have to repeat your testimony; it's in the record. My

17 question to you was, amongst the soldiers that you saw mingled with the

18 population on the 11th of July, did you see members of the Drina Wolves?

19 A. I cannot be certain whether it was them, but I said already -- and

20 this is my 20th day here, and I'm really anxious to testify to what I know

21 -- whether it was a small group of them or of the 10th Sabotage

22 Detachment or the Bratunac Brigade I really cannot claim with any

23 certainty, but I know, I'm certain, that it was a small group of soldiers

24 of the Republika Srpska army.

25 Just as you say that some people testified otherwise, some people

Page 7257

1 from the Zvornik Brigade told me that a small group, a small platoon, went

2 down to Potocari. In one clip, there is -- we can see General Mladic

3 saying, "And now forward to Potocari." I'm sure you remember that, and

4 I'm certain that what I'm saying is what I saw.

5 Q. Now, let us -- well, let me ask you. Did you ever tell Mr. Ruez

6 that you did, in fact, see Drina Wolves in and around the Potocari

7 compound? You can give me a "yes" or a "no" answer.

8 A. Yes, I mentioned to him the Drina Wolves.

9 Q. Now, let's turn to another issue, and that is your testimony that

10 you unilaterally decided to pack up the communications centre on the

11 evening of the 11th of July. Witness DB, at the time you made this

12 decision to pack up the communications centre, the 28th Division and the

13 actual whereabouts of the 28th Division was not known, correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The 28th Division was a unit that could have done a

16 counter-attack, correct?

17 A. Listening to all the information coming from the battlefield and

18 to all the intercepts, radio intercepts, as of 10th of July, we had

19 information that the 28th Division got orders from the Corps to -- 2nd

20 Corps [as interpreted] to concentrate around the UN base, whereas the 28th

21 Division was to prepare for an advance towards Kladanj, so that we -- with

22 all the radio intercepts and all the information we had from the front

23 line told us that the 28th Division was broken up, and that there was no

24 chance of them carrying out a counter-attack.

25 Q. Did you receive an order from either General Krstic or General

Page 7258

1 Mladic to pack up the mobile communications centre and proceed to

2 Bratunac?

3 A. I did not get such an order.

4 Q. Let me read you the testimony of General Krstic.

5 MR. HARMON: And I'm referring to the testimony of the 19th of

6 October, 2000, page 6196.

7 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Visnjic, yes?

8 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I see it's not on the

9 record, but I think the witness had said that the civilians were to

10 concentrate around the UN base in Potocari. That is line 10 or 11. That

11 is not, not the "2nd Corps," but the civilians were to concentrate around

12 the Potocari base, whereas the 28th Division was supposed to prepare a

13 breakthrough.

14 I know it is not important to the testimony now elicited by

15 Mr. Harmon, but it may be important later.

16 MR. HARMON: I'll stipulate to that. It can be corrected.

17 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Harmon, before you will end this, I just have

18 some kind of question.

19 The witness had said to -- and I'm asking Witness DB. You said to

20 Mr. Ruez that it was the Drina Wolves who were among the population, and

21 today you don't seem to be sure. Is that right?

22 A. I think I told him that, and that there was a small group of those

23 soldiers. And analysing the whole thing later, seeing that Mr. Ruez did

24 not believe me, I asked some people from the Zvornik Brigade, and indeed,

25 they said that one group, one squad, went down -- had gone down to

Page 7259

1 Potocari. And I thought that some of the UN soldiers who had been in that

2 base or someone from that enormous crowd of civilians who come to testify

3 here would confirm what I had said.

4 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

5 Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.

6 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Judge Riad.

7 Q. Let me read you the testimony of General Krstic found at 6196 and

8 goes through to 6198. I'm reading from lines 22 to 25 on 6196, and lines

9 1 through 4 on 6198.

10 "This order --" this is a question by my colleague Mr. Petrusic.

11 "This order concerns both you and General Zivanovic."

12 Actually, I realise I'm going to have to go into private session

13 to read this part of the testimony and examine on it, so if we could do

14 that briefly.

15 JUDGE RIAD: I'm sorry, you said?

16 MR. HARMON: Could I have a private session just for a few

17 questions?

18 JUDGE RIAD: Madam Registrar, please. Yes, Mr. Harmon.

19 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7260












12 Page 7260 redacted private session














Page 7261













13 page 7261 redacted private session













Page 7262













13 page 7262 redacted private session













Page 7263













13 page 7263 redacted private session













Page 7264

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.


7 Q. I'm focusing your attention now on the meeting that you say

8 occurred on the 11th of July at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters, and I'd

9 like to ask you some questions about that. Did you attend the meeting

10 from -- what time did you arrive at the meeting location, and what time

11 did the meeting start?

12 A. I arrived at the meeting location around 2200 hours, and I think

13 that immediately after that, the meeting started.

14 Q. And when did you leave the meeting?

15 A. I left about half an hour into the meeting.

16 Q. Was the meeting still going on when you left, or had it concluded?

17 A. The meeting, as I said yesterday, in my opinion didn't have a

18 strictly military atmosphere, but all the participants remained in the

19 same room after I left.

20 Q. Did -- at that -- I'm sorry. At that meeting, you were ordered to

21 go to establish the forward command post at Krivace; correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And it is your testimony that General Mladic gave you that order?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you had to have the agreement of General Mladic -- I'm

Page 7265

1 sorry -- General Krstic, did you not?

2 A. That agreement was automatically implied.

3 Q. Now, in addition to going to establish the forward command post,

4 was there an order given to carry out a search of the terrain on the

5 following day, on the 12th?

6 A. I was not present if such an order was issued.

7 Q. Did you tell Mr. Ruez that you were present and such an order was

8 issued?

9 A. I don't remember. I can't claim that with certainty, because I

10 expected that immediately all units would be regrouped for Zepa.

11 Q. Now, did the participants at that meeting know where the 28th

12 Division elements were located and what were their intentions?

13 A. I think that all of them assumed that they were grouped somewhere

14 in the north-western part of the enclave and that they would probably try

15 to break through towards Tuzla.

16 Q. Now, at that meeting that you attended, did General Mladic say

17 that, from that moment on, command of all the forces, the Drina Corps

18 forces in the municipalities of Srebrenica, Bratunac, Zvornik, Milici, and

19 Vlasenica, would be assumed by him personally?

20 A. I don't remember that wording.

21 Q. Now, had the command of the Drina Corps units in those

22 municipalities been taken over personally by General Mladic, that implies,

23 does it not, that those units would then report to General Mladic;

24 correct?

25 A. In military terms, that would be so.

Page 7266












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7267

1 Q. And then that would mean that the -- on the combat reports, for

2 example, and the daily combat reports, those would be sent to General

3 Mladic, as the commander now of the Drina Corps forces?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, when you left the meeting, did you leave a signalsman with

6 General Krstic?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you remember the name of that signalsman?

9 A. Mirko Plakalovic.

10 Q. And he was supposed to provide communications assistance for

11 General Krstic while he remained behind; is that correct?

12 A. Yes. He carried with him a mobile device for radio communication

13 with subordinate units.

14 Q. When was the next time you saw this particular signalsman?

15 A. I don't remember, though we did discuss it.

16 Q. You discussed what? You mean you discussed this with the

17 signalsman?

18 A. Yes. Yes.

19 Q. What was discussed? Briefly, please.

20 A. We discussed his movements after the 11th.

21 Q. Where did he go after the 11th?

22 A. He stayed in Bratunac with General Krstic and he spent the night

23 in Bratunac, that night, and he remembers that after he went with him into

24 the field somewhere where our units were -- but we were unable to

25 establish when he reached Zepa, because he too later was transferred to

Page 7268

1 Zepa. He cannot remember the details -- and I replaced some of the

2 soldiers and gave them leave when moving from Srebrenica to Zepa so that

3 they could rest.

4 Q. Did the signalsman accompany General Krstic to the forward command

5 post at Krivace?

6 A. His recollection is that he just spent the night in Bratunac, the

7 night between the 11th and the 12th, and that during the day he went with

8 him with this equipment into the hills, in the direction of our units, and

9 he doesn't remember whether he reached Krivace with him, or Godjenje, or

10 whether he was transported with the other units that were being

11 transferred to Zepa.

12 Q. Now, Witness, I'd like to turn your attention to the events in

13 Zepa. We're going to focus on Zepa.

14 MR. HARMON: I'd like to have Prosecutor's Exhibit 785, please,

15 shown to the witness.

16 Q. And while we are waiting for the exhibit to be distributed,

17 Witness, at the -- during the Zepa operations, there were three forward

18 command posts during that operation: one at Krivace, one at Godjenje, and

19 one at Zlovrh; is that correct? Z-l-o-r -- Z-l-o-v-r-h. Is that

20 correct? I can't pronounce it, but ...

21 A. Yes, yes. It's all right. I'm communicating with the

22 interpreters. That is correct, yes.

23 MR. HARMON: All right. Now, do Your Honours have a copy of the

24 map?

25 JUDGE RIAD: Not right now.

Page 7269


2 Q. Witness, if you could take this exhibit and put it in front of you

3 while the map is being distributed. And you'll see on that map I have

4 highlighted a number of locations, and this is merely to orient us in

5 respect of this campaign.

6 Now, Witness, do you see the location of the forward command post

7 at Krivace? Is that indicated --

8 MR. HARMON: Can you put this on the ELMO first?

9 Q. If you can point these locations out to us, please. Witness, do

10 you see the location of Krivace marked on this map, and is that the

11 location of the forward command post that was set up in Zepa?

12 A. The forward command post was here, on this bend in the road.

13 Q. So indicating the bend in the road underneath the highlighted word

14 "Krivace," so it's in the general area?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, do you see beneath that a highlighted area with Godjenje,

17 G-o-d-e-n-j-e? It appears at the bottom of the map between the

18 coordinates 47 and 48.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is that the location of the second forward command post?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. HARMON: Now, let's go up, Mr. Usher, so we can show -- right

23 there. If you can hold that right there, please.

24 Q. Do you see the area indicated Veliki Zep? Can you point that out

25 on the map for the Judges?

Page 7270

1 MR. HARMON: Indicating the orange-marked area Veliki Zep.

2 Q. Veliki Zep is the location of the repeater from which you could

3 send radio communications from your location at the forward command post

4 up to the Drina Corps headquarters, is that correct, and to the Main

5 Staff; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, those were telephone communications using radio relay links.

7 Q. Now, you also indicated that General Krstic spent the night with

8 his in-laws at a village. Is that the village of Kusace, which is marked

9 on this map in orange?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And that is the village where General Krstic spent the nights

12 during the Zepa campaign. And Han Pijesak, lastly, is the location of the

13 Main Staff of the VRS?

14 JUDGE RIAD: Can you repeat the question?

15 MR. HARMON: Yes, yes.

16 Q. Han Pijesak is the location where the Main Staff of the VRS had

17 its headquarters?

18 A. No, 11 kilometres away from Han Pijesak.

19 Q. All right. Can you locate that for us, please?

20 A. In this location here, coloured in dark grey.

21 Q. All right. Indicating, for the record, the area between the

22 letters "J" and "A" and the word "Javor," that is, northwest of the

23 location Veliki Zep. All right, thank you very much for orienting us with

24 this exhibit.

25 MR. HARMON: I'm completed with this exhibit, thank you,

Page 7271

1 Mr. Usher.

2 Q. Now, witness, did you receive a copy of the operational plan for

3 the offensive operations in Zepa?

4 A. No.

5 Q. When you -- what time did you arrive in Zepa on the 12th of July?

6 A. At about 1400 hours.

7 Q. And did any of the units that were to participate in the offensive

8 operation in Zepa arrive on the 12th of July at the forward command post

9 Krivace or around the forward command post?

10 A. I think that parts of the 5th Podrinje Infantry Brigade had

11 arrived.

12 Q. Did any other units, elements of any other units arrive on the

13 12th of July in and around the Krivace forward command post?

14 A. I do not remember that. All the units were grouping away from

15 Krivace, outside my field of vision, but I know that when I passed by a

16 locality called Plane, that I did see elements of the 5th Podrinje Brigade

17 and that I communicated with their signalsman.

18 Q. Did any other elements of the attacking group, the other brigades,

19 show up around Plane on the 12th, or did they show up the following day,

20 or do you remember?

21 A. I remember only that the other units started arriving in the

22 afternoon and early evening hours of the 13th of July.

23 Q. Now, do you know a Drina Corps Commander by the name of Furtula?

24 A. Furtula, a Major, he was at the time commander of the 5th Podrinje

25 Brigade.

Page 7272

1 Q. Do you know his first name?

2 A. Radomir Furtula.

3 MR. HARMON: For Your Honours' sake, on the organogram, Radomir

4 Furtula appears at this location.

5 Q. Now, did he show up at -- in Zepa to participate in these

6 operations? Did you see him at the forward command post?

7 A. In the course of the operation, I would see him at the forward

8 command post. He and his unit took part in the Zepa operation.

9 JUDGE RIAD: I'm ready for you to decide you have reached the

10 maximum of 70 minutes.

11 MR. HARMON: I have about two more questions, then, that I will

12 have reached my 70-minute limit.

13 JUDGE RIAD: Good.


15 Q. Do you know an individual by the name of Milan Lukic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who is Milan Lukic?

18 A. As I know Milan Lukic from Visegrad, and as in 1997, I --


20 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since this is

21 identifying information, the Defence would request a private session for

22 these questions because we still don't know whether he is a soldier, and

23 the witness mentioned the year 1997.

24 MR. HARMON: Well, I'm in a position to clarify that, Your Honour,

25 with a few additional questions, and I'd be glad to do that. I'm not sure

Page 7273

1 a private session is required at this point.

2 JUDGE RIAD: We try to give safety to all those who are mentioned

3 here.

4 MR. HARMON: Well, this is an individual who has been mentioned

5 many times in public session in the course of this trial.

6 JUDGE RIAD: Judge Wald?

7 A. It's not that person, it's myself that is at stake.

8 JUDGE RIAD: We're very keen on your safety.

9 MR. HARMON: In that case, I have no objection, in that case, to

10 go into private session.

11 JUDGE RIAD: Good. You go now or you go after the break.

12 MR. HARMON: I only have a few questions in this area, so I'd like

13 to proceed now.

14 JUDGE RIAD: Madam Registrar, go into private session, please.

15 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7274













13 page 7274 redacted private session













Page 7275













13 page 7275 redacted private session













Page 7276

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 MR. HARMON: I have no additional questions at this point.

5 JUDGE RIAD: At this point. How long do you still have to ask

6 questions, to interrogate the witness, in your opinion?

7 MR. HARMON: Conservatively, a maximum of two hours.

8 JUDGE RIAD: So if we -- maximum of two hours. I suggest, then,

9 we'll have a break of one hour so that you can have some rest, and then we

10 come back at 2.25 exactly.

11 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE RIAD: But I hope it will not be more than two. The Judges

13 might have some questions, too.

14 MR. HARMON: I hope it won't be more than two as well.

15 JUDGE RIAD: Now, it's exceptional for the whole staff, I have to

16 thank them, because the witness has to leave absolutely, I think, by today

17 or tomorrow. And I would like to thank the witness, you have been very

18 cooperative. Thank you very much.

19 We'll come back at 2.25.

20 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.25 p.m.






Page 7277

1 --- On resuming at 2.25 p.m.

2 JUDGE RIAD: Ms. Registrar, I think you have an announcement to

3 make.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President. I have been

5 informed that the interpreters can only work a maximum of five hours and

6 twenty minutes. I've calculated the time thus far, and it's approximately

7 three hours, so therefore we have two hours and twenty minutes. Now, I

8 know Mr. Harmon mentioned two hours, but the Defence also needs 10

9 minutes, 10 or 15 minutes for redirect, and also I don't know how long the

10 Judges plan to ask questions, but we need to calculate this so that we do

11 not run over the designated time. Thank you.

12 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Ms. Krystal. Just a clarification. The

13 two hours, twenty, do not include the break, do they?


15 JUDGE RIAD: Good.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Just strictly work time in the Court.

17 JUDGE RIAD: So we can still have a break.


19 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Harmon, can we request that you give us a quarter

20 of an hour from your two hours?

21 MR. HARMON: Yes, I think that's possible.

22 JUDGE RIAD: Good. Then we -- and our Defence lawyers need more

23 than a quarter of an hour?

24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE RIAD: And then we keep 20 minutes for the Judges. Judge

Page 7278

1 Wald?

2 JUDGE WALD: I don't need 20 minutes, but whatever you need.

3 JUDGE RIAD: We'll have to share them.


5 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. We can start, and we have no -- there

6 will be no chance to continue after that. The witness has to go back

7 home.

8 MR. HARMON: Yes. I'll make sure he gets home. He won't be

9 impeded by my examination.

10 Q. Witness DB, we're going to try to move through your testimony in

11 order for you to get home. So let me start with -- let me continue in the

12 area we were talking about. We were talking about the Krivace Forward

13 Command Post, and my first question this afternoon is: What time and what

14 date did General Krstic arrive at the forward command post?

15 A. I don't remember exactly at what time, but I think he -- I think

16 it was the 13th of July.

17 Q. Now, when did the offensive operation actually commence?

18 A. I think it commenced on the 14th, in the morning hours.

19 Q. Let us talk briefly about the communications system that you set

20 up at Krivace. I understood from your previous testimony that it was

21 similar to the communications system that you had set up in Srebrenica, at

22 Pribicevac; is that correct?

23 A. That is correct.

24 Q. Now, at the Krivace Forward Command Post, you could use -- as the

25 means of communication, you could use a teleprinter, a telephone that

Page 7279

1 would convert the conversation into a radio beam that would be transmitted

2 from your location, through Veliki Zep, up in the direction of either the

3 Drina Corps headquarters in Vlasenica or the Main Staff located near Han

4 Pijesak; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, in respect of those communications, the form of communication

7 that was protected was the teleprinter; is that correct?

8 A. Yes. It was one of the protected forms of communication.

9 Q. And the communications that were directed from the forward command

10 post via Veliki Zep to the Main Staff were protected more than the

11 communications that were directed from your location via Veliki Zep to the

12 Drina Corps headquarters?

13 A. They worked according to the same principle. Just a second. Can

14 you repeat the question, please?

15 Q. Yes. Were the communications between the Krivace Forward Command

16 Post and Han Pijesak better protected -- did they have more protection

17 than the communications from Krivace to --

18 JUDGE WALD: Excuse me. Our screens have gone blank, our

19 transcript -- oh, okay. Are they okay now? All right. Sorry.

20 MR. HARMON: It's all right.

21 Q. Let me repeat the question. Did the communications that went from

22 the Krivace Forward Command Post to the Han Pijesak command of the Main

23 Staff have better protection than the communications that went from the

24 Krivace Forward Command Post up to the Drina Corps headquarters in

25 Vlasenica?

Page 7280

1 A. Teleprinter lines had the same protection system, whereas oral

2 communications over the telephone had a better system of protection

3 towards the Main Staff.

4 Q. So the telephone communications that went toward the main -- I'm

5 sorry, towards Vlasenica headquarters of the Drina Corps were

6 interceptable, weren't they?

7 A. Right.

8 Q. And therefore it was your practice, was it not, to try to avoid

9 important conversations over the telephone between your location and the

10 Drina Corps command in Vlasenica?

11 A. I always cautioned my superiors, whether their communication is

12 protected or not, whether it can be intercepted or not.

13 Q. And my point was that the communications that went from over the

14 telephone between your location and the Drina Corps command headquarters

15 in Vlasenica was one where you tried to avoid transmitting, conveying

16 important information because of the fear that those conversations would

17 be intercepted.

18 A. Do you mean I personally, or you mean all those who used this

19 line?

20 Q. All those who used the line.

21 A. I would warn in advance about the interceptability of the

22 communication, and whether or not they would include important information

23 in their conversation is something that they decided for themselves.

24 Q. Okay.

25 MR. HARMON: Let me have Prosecutor's Exhibit 529 shown to the

Page 7281

1 witness, please.

2 Q. I'll be very brief on this exhibit, Witness DB.

3 MR. HARMON: If the English version could be placed on the ELMO.

4 Q. Witness DB, this is an intercepted communication from the 13th of

5 July at 2040 hours, and the identified participants are General Krstic and

6 "X," who is identified as Borovcanin from the specials. Would you review

7 this conversation, please.

8 Do you recognise this conversation? Do you recall this

9 conversation?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And Borovcanin from the specials would be the Borovcanin who we

12 talked about yesterday and whose picture I showed you in two exhibits,

13 correct?

14 A. Probably.

15 Q. All right. Thank you very much. Now, let me --

16 MR. HARMON: I'm finished with this exhibit, Mr. Usher.

17 Q. Let me ask you, you testified that you went from -- you stayed at

18 the forward command post and went -- in Pribicevac, went directly to the

19 forward command post in Zepa. Did you ever leave the forward command post

20 in Krivace and do anything?

21 A. We stayed at the forward command post in Krivace about three days,

22 two or three days, from the commencement of combat operations. And then

23 we moved to the forward command post at Godjenje.

24 Q. Did you ever --

25 A. And I did not leave the forward command post at Krivace except

Page 7282

1 perhaps to go to visit a unit which was very nearby before the combat

2 operations began.

3 Q. And after the combat operations began, did you ever return to

4 Vlasenica?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you ever go take a bath or a shower?

7 A. While we were at Godjenje, I went at least once to have a shower,

8 but that was only after we moved to the forward command post at Godjenje.

9 That means about ten days after the commencement of combat operations,

10 around that time.

11 Q. And did you -- where did you go to take that bath or shower?

12 A. To the command of the Drina Corps, where my premises were.

13 MR. HARMON: Now, let me ask the Prosecutor's Exhibit 687 be

14 placed on the ELMO, please. Can you place the English on the ELMO? Thank

15 you.

16 Q. Now, this is an intercept, Witness DB, dated the 18th of July at

17 2050 hours, and the participants are Krstic and "X," and I'd like you to

18 read that intercept.

19 A. You said of the 18th of July.

20 Q. That's correct.

21 JUDGE RIAD: Where is it written the 18th of July?

22 MR. HARMON: The evidence has been presented earlier by previous

23 witnesses.

24 Q. Now, Witness, let me direct your attention to --

25 MR. HARMON: Actually, could we go into private session?

Page 7283

1 JUDGE RIAD: We go into private session. Please tell us when you

2 finish.

3 MR. HARMON: I will.

4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session.

5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7284













13 page 7284 redacted private session













Page 7285

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 MR. HARMON: I'll repeat what I just said. I'm going to be

21 distributing the next exhibit, or asking that the next exhibit be

22 distributed. It's Prosecutor's Exhibit 765A and B. It's a transcript of

23 a film. And we'll play this film and then I will ask the witness some

24 questions about it. And if we could have Prosecutor's Exhibit 765

25 played.

Page 7286

1 And Mr. Usher, in the meantime, if you could collect Prosecutor's

2 Exhibit 819/1, 819/2, and 820 to show the witness so we can move this part

3 of the examination quite quickly.

4 Witness, if you'd watch the monitor, please.

5 [Videotape played]

6 MR. HARMON: Can we stop this for just a minute? I have no audio

7 portion of this part. Could I have the technical booth -- we're supposed

8 to have an audio component to this film, and I'm not getting that and

9 neither are the Judges, and I don't think my colleagues are either, so ...

10 There's a transcript in the meantime, Your Honours. I can either ask that

11 the whole film be replayed or we can pick up the audio portion from this

12 point on.

13 THE REGISTRAR: I've just spoken with the AV section, and he says

14 he's going to get someone to come in and fix it right away.

15 MR. HARMON: All right. Well, we'll show this --

16 THE REGISTRAR: But it had no audio, is what he said, so ...

17 MR. HARMON: All right. Well, they'll have to fix that because it

18 was presented to them with an audio component, and there's a transcript

19 here. But we will view this film in a few minutes when it's fixed. If I

20 could get the signal when it is. And in the meantime, I can go to another

21 part of the examination and we will continue.

22 Q. We'll return to this film in just a minute, Witness DB. Let me

23 turn my attention from Lieutenant Colonel Kosoric to Lieutenant Colonel

24 Cerovic. Now, Lieutenant Colonel Slobodan Cerovic was the chief of the

25 department of moral guidance and legal affairs in the Drina Corps;

Page 7287

1 correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, do you remember when he came down to the forward command post

4 to brief General Krstic about the events that had been taking place in the

5 Drina Corps area of operations outside of the Zepa region? Do you

6 remember that?

7 A. No.

8 Q. All right. During the Zepa operation -- the film I'm going to

9 show you -- first of all, do you recognise what little you've seen of this

10 film to have been filmed in Zepa?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And during the course of the Zepa campaign, there were a series of

13 negotiations and ceasefires, weren't there?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you tell us, to the best of your recollection, about the

16 number of times there was a ceasefire?

17 A. Several times.

18 Q. And were those ceasefires -- for what duration of time were those

19 ceasefires?

20 A. They lasted several hours or more.

21 MR. HARMON: We're getting a report at the moment, Witness, from

22 the audio booth, apparently.

23 THE REGISTRAR: AV section just informed me that they have the

24 video ready. However, the poor quality -- due to the poor quality of the

25 tape, the audio part is not going to be much better, but they can play it

Page 7288

1 and --

2 MR. HARMON: Well, we are in a position, Your Honours, to provide

3 a quality on this audio that perhaps is better than the one that was

4 submitted. We have taken a transcript from it, but I would like to show

5 Your Honours -- at least pick up the part of the tape where we left off.

6 And what Your Honours will see are negotiations taking place, with General

7 Mladic leading those negotiations, with Lieutenant Colonel Cerovic as

8 a -- when I say "participant," a non-verbal participant in those

9 negotiations. And Your Honours will recall the film footage we have shown

10 Your Honours of the negotiations in the Hotel Fontana on the evening of

11 the 11th and the morning of the 12th, and on the morning of the 12th you

12 will see -- you'll recall that it was General Mladic who was leading those

13 negotiations and his subordinates were silent, and Lieutenant Colonel

14 Kosoric was present at the far end of the table. So we will proceed. If

15 we could have that video now played.

16 Witness DB, that was for your benefit as well, because I'm going

17 to be asking you some questions about this video.

18 JUDGE WALD: What date did this take place on?

19 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I do not know the date of this. I know

20 it was sometime during the Zepa operation. It was during one of the

21 ceasefires.

22 JUDGE WALD: All right.

23 [Videotape played]


25 Q. That individual speaking is not from the VRS, he's Ukrainian,

Page 7289

1 isn't he?

2 A. Probably.

3 [Videotape played]

4 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, if the witness could be shown a series of

5 photographs or images, still images from the film.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

7 MR. HARMON: If the witness could be shown the images, and if we

8 could start with Prosecutor's Exhibit 820 and place that on the ELMO.

9 Q. Witness DB, the man on the lower right-hand side of the image,

10 with a large moustache and a bald head, who is that?

11 A. Lieutenant Colonel Svetozar Kosoric.

12 Q. Do you know either of the two men who are also in this image,

13 either of the two men?

14 A. I heard in the conversation at a meeting, so I know roughly who

15 they could be.

16 Q. Are they military figures, or are they civilians?

17 A. Looking at them and by their appearance on this photograph, they

18 are civilians.

19 MR. HARMON: Can we turn to the next exhibit, which will be

20 Prosecutor's Exhibit 819 -- is there a slash on that? 19/1? We're going

21 to start with 819/2.

22 Q. It should be 819/2, and on this image, Witness DB, starting from

23 the far left-hand side, we recognise General Mladic. Can you go from

24 General Mladic's left-hand side and identify the individuals working in

25 the direction of Lieutenant Colonel Kosoric? Let's start with the

Page 7290

1 individual immediately to the left of General Mladic. Can you identify

2 that individual?

3 A. I think, I think this is General Tolimir.

4 Q. And the next individual, to the left of General Tolimir?

5 A. I do not recognise the next two individuals.

6 Q. And the individual at the head of the table, again with the

7 handlebar moustache or the large moustache and the bald head, Lieutenant

8 Colonel Kosoric?

9 A. Yes, that is he.

10 Q. Okay, we won't proceed with the next exhibit. Thank you very

11 much.

12 Now, who was leading the negotiations in the Zepa campaign, to

13 your knowledge?

14 A. As far as I know, at the place where the negotiations were

15 conducted, General Mladic was there frequently, as well as General

16 Tolimir, and I think that, on one occasion, at least on one occasion, I

17 don't know whether on more occasions, I think General Krstic went there.

18 Q. Did you ever see Lieutenant Colonel Popovic, the head of the Drina

19 Corps security, at the forward command posts in Zepa?

20 A. I don't remember seeing him ever there.

21 Q. Did General Zivanovic ever appear in Zepa at any of the forward

22 command posts?

23 A. I think he did not.

24 Q. Can you tell us why General Zivanovic left the military? Let me

25 ask you this. I'll withdraw that question.

Page 7291

1 Can you tell me why General Zivanovic was relieved of command of

2 the Drina Corps?

3 A. I really cannot tell you.

4 Q. Did you hear anything, soldier talk, as to the reasons why he

5 left?

6 A. First of all, there was no talk of him being replaced. The talk

7 was that he was going to take up another position in the Main Staff, and

8 there was talk that he was going to retire. But there was no talk that he

9 had been dismissed or relieved of his duties, because just then I think he

10 was promoted to a higher rank so that I cannot infer from that that he was

11 replaced.

12 MR. HARMON: Now, if the Witness -- if we could get Prosecutor's

13 Exhibits 805 and 780. If you would show the witness the B/C/S version,

14 starting first of all with Prosecutor's Exhibit 805.

15 Q. Witness DB, these are copies of indictments. The first indictment

16 that I'm going to show you is Prosecutor's Exhibit 805. It is an

17 indictment against Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic that was filed by the

18 Prosecutor of this Tribunal on July 24th, 1995, and was confirmed a day

19 later by a Judge of this Tribunal.

20 Did you hear about the indictment of the Supreme Commander and the

21 head of the army?

22 A. I heard that roughly at the time when forces started the -- the

23 SFOR forces started arriving in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

24 so those public indictments were hung up together with the names and

25 photographs of the accused so that all of us could see it. And I think

Page 7292

1 there was a poster which had some 50 or 60 accused on it.

2 Q. Can you fix a date for us when you recall becoming aware of the

3 indictment of Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic, when you personally

4 became aware of it?

5 A. I hadn't learnt about the indictment, I just learnt from this

6 poster that he had been indicted. This was probably broadcast in the

7 media, but these are reports which did not represent anything particularly

8 new for us.

9 Q. So that didn't cause any kind of a sensation amongst the army

10 corps, as far as you are aware?

11 A. No, no particular sensation.

12 Q. Let me show you Prosecutor's Exhibit 780, which is the indictment

13 of Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic for the events that took place in

14 Srebrenica. This indictment was filed by the Prosecutor on November the

15 14th, 1995, and was confirmed two days later by a Judge of this Tribunal.

16 Now, this indictment deals with the very events that are in issue

17 in this trial. Did you hear that the Supreme Commander and the head of

18 the army had been indicted for the mass execution of thousands of Muslim

19 men and boys that occurred in and around the Srebrenica enclave,

20 specifically within the Drina Corps area of responsibility? Did you hear

21 about this indictment?

22 A. I heard that they had been indicted of war crimes. What kind of

23 war crime and the details, I had no precise knowledge about that.

24 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. Usher, I'm finished with those

25 exhibits.

Page 7293

1 Q. Did members of the VRS execute thousands of Bosnian Muslim men and

2 boys in and around Srebrenica in July of 1995?

3 A. According to the information that I heard from the radio,

4 television, and the press, and during the preparations for my testimony

5 here, it appears that it is without doubt the truth that this crime that

6 you have described occurred.

7 Q. Now, let me turn to another part of your testimony, and

8 specifically --

9 JUDGE RIAD: Wait for the transcript. What's wrong with the

10 transcript? Just a second, we have to -- do you have transcript? Good.

11 We don't have it.

12 MR. HARMON: We're receiving transcript from the Prosecutor's

13 bench, yes.

14 JUDGE RIAD: Do you have it? Do you have the transcript?

15 MR. HARMON: Yes, Judge Riad, we have a transcript that is

16 appearing for our bench, at least on my monitor.

17 JUDGE RIAD: Can we let him continue?

18 JUDGE WALD: I'm okay because I can understand him.

19 JUDGE RIAD: You can continue; we understand your English.

20 JUDGE WALD: But we don't understand the answer.

21 JUDGE RIAD: That also comes back in translation.

22 It's back, go ahead.

23 MR. HARMON: All right, we have surmounted our technical

24 difficulties.

25 Q. Let me ask you -- actually, let me turn your attention to part of

Page 7294

1 your testimony that took place, I believe it was the day before yesterday

2 or yesterday. My colleague, Mr. Petrusic, asked you the following

3 questions, and you gave the following response.

4 And I'm referring to the LiveNote of July the -- I'm sorry --

5 November the 7th, page 7093 to the following page, and I'm reading from

6 lines 15 to 25, and then on the following page, 1 through 9. My

7 colleague, Mr. Petrusic, asked you the following questions and you gave

8 the following answers:

9 "Q. Do you know what position General Krstic held in the

10 command of the Drina Corps on the 13th of July, 1995?

11 A. I think that General Krstic was the Chief of Staff of

12 the Corps.

13 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to when General Krstic

14 became commander of the Drina Corps?

15 A. I know that this is an important question, but in my

16 preparations for my testimony here, I read the order of

17 the President of the Republika Srpska, dated 15th of

18 July, appointing General Krstic commander of the Drina

19 Corps, because it is only the president who has the

20 authority to appoint people who -- these strategic

21 groupings and positions. While we were at Zepa, whether

22 it was over the media or in some other way, any way, we

23 learnt of the decree of the President of the Republic,

24 and I know that sometime around the 20th of July, or

25 thereabouts, there was a gathering of generals in a

Page 7295

1 facility close to Han Pijesak. There were a number of

2 generals from the Main Staff and the commanders of the

3 other corps, and also present with General Zivanovic and

4 General Krstic. And I know that the event was organised

5 to observe the handover of duty by the commander of the

6 Drina Corps, and I know that after General Krstic's

7 return to the forward command post in the village

8 of ..."

9 And I'm assuming this is Krivace or Godjenje. There's

10 nothing indicated on my transcript.

11 "... some people congratulated him on his taking over of

12 duty."

13 Now, I've concluded my reading of your answer, and from your

14 answer it appears that you have based your opinion first on the decree of

15 President Karadzic, about which you learned sometime while you were in

16 Zepa. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You also base your opinion on -- you also state that you knew

19 sometime around the 20th of July there was a meeting where the formal

20 handover took place, handover ceremony between General Zivanovic and

21 General Krstic; correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, lastly, you say that there were some people who congratulated

24 General Krstic when he returned to the forward command post on his taking

25 over duty. Now, let me ask you: In respect of the information that you

Page 7296

1 learned in preparation for your testimony, when was it that you first saw

2 the actual document appointing General Krstic as the commander that

3 confirmed what you had actually heard while you were in Zepa?

4 A. Six or seven days ago; five, six, seven days ago.

5 Q. Okay. Now, did you personally attend the meeting where the

6 handover ceremony took place?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Now, can you identify for us the individuals who congratulated

9 General Krstic at the forward command post when he returned?

10 A. I cannot remember the individuals by name, but I know that the

11 atmosphere was such.

12 Q. So let me then -- in respect of the decree of the president.

13 You've told us in the course of your testimony that there were formalities

14 in law and in regulations. Let me give you some examples of what I mean.

15 You testified in respect of the formal elements of a communications plan,

16 there were certain identifiable elements that, by regulation, were

17 required, but because of wartime conditions, the rules and regulations

18 were not strictly adhered to. Do you remember that testimony?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You told us that there was no official designation in a numerical

21 sense for the identification of commanders at various headquarters. For

22 example, you said wartime conditions resulted in the designations being

23 01, 02, and that wasn't strictly in accordance with the regulations. Do

24 you remember that testimony?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7297

1 Q. So it's fair to say that in this war, while there were regulations

2 and there were rules, wartime conditions often resulted in a deviation

3 from those rules and regulations; isn't that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, you have seen this document that is a document that appoints

6 General Krstic as the commander, and in the strict formal sense, there are

7 certain things that have to follow, and you've told us about those

8 elements. But wartime conditions oftentimes don't require that every rule

9 and every regulation be followed, and that includes, does it not, the

10 appointment of officers to command positions?

11 A. I agree with you in the most part, Mr. Prosecutor, but I think

12 that a presidential decree, after all, is a decree by the president.

13 Q. I understand that there was a presidential decree and the

14 presidential decree was required for a number of positions, officer

15 positions, but can you allow for the possibility that de facto someone

16 assumes command prior to the issuance of a piece of paper signed by the

17 president which formally designates the individual to a command post?

18 A. I accept that possibility.

19 Q. Now, let me read to you --

20 MR. HARMON: Actually, I need to go into private session for just

21 a moment.

22 JUDGE RIAD: Ms. Registrar.

23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 7298













13 page 7298 redacted private session













Page 7299













13 page 7299 redacted private session













Page 7300

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]


5 Q. Let me read to you a question -- actually, let me withdraw that

6 question. The following answer that I'm going to read to you was an

7 answer that was volunteered by you and not directly responsive to the

8 question that was asked. So let me read this to you.

9 "MR. RUEZ: Do you know if he returned to the Drina Corps

10 headquarters during that period of time?

11 A. I know that it was a ceremony to mark when

12 General Zivanovic landed -- it should be handed -- over

13 his duties as Corps Commander to him, and I think that

14 day he was in the corps headquarters. I heard the story

15 that that was on the 13th. I don't know the exact date,

16 but I think it happened at the beginning of the operation

17 in Zepa.

18 MR. RUEZ: And what is, for you, the beginning of the

19 operation on Zepa?

20 A. If I follow the chronology on dates, I think that

21 beginning of the attack on Zepa was 14th, because on the

22 12th, Krstic wasn't there. On 13th, the units were

23 collecting ... were actually gathering, so it sounds

24 logical to me that we attacked on Zepa on 14th.

25 MR. RUEZ: Okay. So do you remember 13th of July, at what

Page 7301

1 moment of the day did General Krstic arrive to Krivace?

2 A. No, I can't. He had the handover of duties in Drina

3 Corps, so it was probably late in the evening, but I know

4 for sure that he wasn't there on the 12th, but he was

5 there when the attack was launched."

6 Let me read on.

7 "Q. You heard about the ceremony of passing over of the

8 command between General Zivanovic and General Krstic that

9 you believe happened on 13th.

10 A. During preparations for this interview, I was told that

11 it took place on 13th. At the time, I knew it happened,

12 but I cannot recall exact day, but I know it actually

13 happened at the beginning of the attack on Zepa. And I

14 knew that many questions are asked that relate to that

15 very date. The debates are related to that date. Most

16 probably they want to clarify who commander of

17 responsibility at the time, whether that was covered by

18 the order and somebody's signature, or handover before

19 the most important officers. I don't know anything

20 personally about that, so I don't have any kind of

21 judgement about that.

22 MR. RUEZ: Okay, you said `in preparation for this interview.'

23 Could you develop on this?

24 A. I obtained the information. For instance, as for

25 Srebrenica, you know, I didn't know the exact date we

Page 7302

1 entered Srebrenica. I thought that we entered Srebrenica

2 on the 12th, and later I found out it was on the 11th,

3 and therefore I use that as that date. For instance, in

4 talks with some other soldiers or officers who were at

5 Zepa, I know I asked, `I know that General Krstic wasn't

6 present there the very first day,' and I know that some

7 of them said that that handover took place on the 13th."

8 Witness, were you asked those questions by Mr. Ruez, and did you

9 provide those answers to him?

10 A. I think so, yes.

11 Q. Now, which officers did you talk to prior to this interview that

12 led you to this position? Can you identify them for us, please?

13 A. Before that interview, I spoke to my signalsman, wishing to

14 establish the chronology of events. I may have also spoken to Colonel

15 Andric or some other officers who are still in the army of Republika

16 Srpska. I mentioned some officers yesterday whose names I remember that I

17 spoke to for us to try and ascertain the chronology of events.

18 Q. So was it these officers who provided you with the information

19 that the handover of command between General Zivanovic and General Krstic

20 took place prior to the commencement of the operation in Zepa?

21 A. From my answer that you have just read out and which I provided on

22 the 4th of April, it can be seen that I provided that answer on the basis

23 of the conversations I had with certain people up to that time.

24 Q. My question, Witness DB, was, did General Andric, who was then a

25 colonel and who was later to become General Krstic's Chief of Staff in the

Page 7303

1 Drina Corps, was he one of the individuals who informed you that the

2 pass-over of command from General Zivanovic to General Krstic occurred

3 prior to the commencement of the Zepa operation?

4 A. I spoke to him. I cannot remember the conversation in detail, but

5 I wanted to learn the truth and to see whether my testimony was correct.

6 So subsequently, I was informed of a date sometime around the 20th of July

7 when the gathering of all Generals was held, when something like the

8 handover took place, and I was also subsequently informed of the decree of

9 the president of the republic, dated the 15th of July. So in the strictly

10 military sense, I reach the conclusion that the official handover could

11 have taken place after the 15th of July.

12 Q. My question was still not answered. Witness DB, when you prepared

13 for this interview on April the 4th with representatives of the Office of

14 the Prosecutor, you informed Mr. Ruez that you had conversed with a number

15 of officers and soldiers in the Drina Corps who had informed you that the

16 official pass-over ceremony of command between General Zivanovic and

17 General Krstic occurred prior to the commencement of the Zepa operation.

18 My question is very simple. Will you identify for us, please, the

19 officers, by name, who told you that the transition in command in the

20 Drina Corps took place before the commencement of the Zepa operation.

21 A. I cannot tell you the names of those people, not because I don't

22 want to, because I can't remember which officers by name conveyed to me

23 such an opinion.

24 Q. Did General Andric convey such an opinion to you?

25 A. He wasn't present on the 13th, and I think he wasn't there on the

Page 7304

1 20th, either, but I'm almost quite sure that he wasn't present on the 13th

2 of July.

3 Q. That wasn't the question I asked. My question was, did he tell

4 you that General Krstic took over command from General Zivanovic prior to

5 the start of the Zepa operation?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did Major Obrenovic, who you identified as an individual with whom

8 you spoke, did he tell you?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did Lieutenant Colonel Vicic tell you that?

11 A. I did speak to Vicic, and I do assume that he might have told me

12 about that because, at the time, he could have been close to the events in

13 question.

14 Q. He was, as you earlier described, General Krstic's number two de

15 facto?

16 A. At the forward command post.

17 Q. Correct. Now, since this interview was a very important

18 interview, as you've said, please tell me who told you. Try to refresh

19 your recollection. Take some time and tell me who told you this

20 information that the pass-over of command took place prior to the

21 commencement of the Zepa operation. Take a minute, reflect.

22 A. I don't need time. I told you in answer to your question that it

23 is a very difficult question because I'm not sure. I cannot tell you with

24 certainty what applies to the 13th, what to the 15th, and what to the 30th

25 of July in the legislative sense.

Page 7305

1 Q. Well, I'm certainly not interested in the legislative sense, I'm

2 interested who told you that the handover took place prior to the Zepa

3 operation. The legislative sense we have dealt with.

4 A. I don't remember.

5 Q. All right.

6 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Petrusic?

7 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] In that case, I have no objection,

8 Your Honour, because the witness has already answered that. This is the

9 third or fourth time that the Prosecutor is repeating the same question

10 and getting the same answer, but before my objection the witness gave his

11 answer, so I withdraw that objection.


13 Q. Now, you've been here, Witness --

14 JUDGE RIAD: When will we finish this line of questions? Because

15 we have to have a break.

16 MR. HARMON: I'm going to say five minutes.

17 JUDGE RIAD: All right. These are exceptional circumstances.


19 Q. Now, Witness, this information that you have provided to the Trial

20 Chamber under oath is entirely different than the information that you

21 provided to the Office of the Prosecutor seven months ago, correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You have been in The Hague for 20 days. Did you make any attempt

24 to contact the Office of the Prosecutor to inform them of this new

25 information that you had developed?

Page 7306

1 A. No, but I think that the information does not and the data does

2 not different significantly.

3 Q. Have you had an opportunity to talk to General Krstic in the past

4 seven months?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Have you had an opportunity to see his publicly-broadcasted

7 statement that he made to the Office of the Prosecutor that was part of

8 this trial?

9 A. In summary form, yes.

10 Q. Did you review -- well, in summary form. What do you mean by "in

11 summary form"? Explain that, please.

12 A. What I saw consisted of some 30 pages, and when they gave this to

13 us, that the whole interview consists of about 90 pages.

14 Q. Who gave you the 30-page summary of the interview?

15 A. In the Corps Command.

16 Q. When did they give that to you?

17 A. A month and a half or two months ago.

18 MR. HARMON: I have no additional questions in this line of

19 inquiry. I only have one additional line of inquiry after the recess, and

20 it shouldn't take that long.

21 JUDGE RIAD: So we'll have a recess for 20 minutes, come back at

22 4.00.

23 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.

25 JUDGE RIAD: Before we proceed, Mr. Harmon, we have, I think,

Page 7307

1 something like an hour and 20 minutes -- no, an hour and 10 minutes left.

2 MR. HARMON: Judge Riad, I'll finish in my allotted time.

3 JUDGE RIAD: We'll need for the redirect a quarter of an hour and

4 for the Judges 20 minutes.

5 MR. HARMON: I will go through these documents as quickly as I

6 can.

7 JUDGE RIAD: I, for one, am going to -- I'm ready to give

8 you -- to grant you my part of questions, which is 10 minutes, but I don't

9 know if the redirect will do that.

10 MR. HARMON: I think I can finish very quickly.

11 JUDGE RIAD: Good.

12 MR. HARMON: If I could start with Prosecutor's Exhibit 463.

13 Mr. Usher, if you'd show the witness the B/C/S version of this document,

14 then place the English version on the ELMO.

15 Q. Witness DB, have you seen this document before testifying?

16 A. I saw it a couple of days ago.

17 Q. Now, so you -- I don't have to have you read this whole document.

18 You're somewhat familiar with this document, aren't you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. This is a document that is issued on the 13th of July, from the

21 command of the Drina Corps, and it is signed by whom?

22 A. I see in front of me a very bad copy, but I think this is General

23 Krstic's signature.

24 Q. And what is the title, the position under which General Krstic's

25 signature appears?

Page 7308

1 A. It says "Commander."

2 Q. So this appears to be an order issued by the commander of the

3 Drina Corps on the 13th of July, 1995; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And under the -- at the caption at the top, "strictly

6 confidential," it has number 01. Do you see that?

7 A. Yes. Yes.

8 Q. What does 01 signify?

9 A. In the sense it is used here, you mean?

10 Q. Does it have any significance in the sense that it's in this

11 order?

12 A. As far as I remember the rules, in the instructions on office

13 work, this first number should denote either the command or an organ

14 within the command. I'm not sure.

15 Q. All right. I don't need to spend much time on that aspect of this

16 document. This document -- you've seen it before -- is an order issued

17 by General Krstic, as commander, to the commands of the 1st Bratunac Light

18 Infantry Brigade, the 1st Milici Light Infantry Brigade, and the Skelani

19 Independent Battalion, to conduct search operations in the area of

20 Srebrenica. So this is an order that is issued by him that is outside the

21 immediate theatre of the operation in Zepa; is that correct?

22 A. I know that these units took part in the Zepa operation, but from

23 the north side.

24 Q. Now, let me ask you, Witness: This document, signed by General

25 Krstic as the commander, is consistent with the information that you

Page 7309

1 provided to Mr. Ruez in your interview on the 4th of April, isn't it?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. HARMON: Now, let's turn to the next document, which is

4 Prosecutor's Exhibit 464.

5 And in the meantime, to the registrar, if we could get prepared

6 Prosecutor's Exhibit 536, 537.

7 Q. You should have before you Prosecutor's Exhibit 464. Have you

8 seen this document before testifying?

9 A. I don't think so.

10 Q. This is a document that is issued on the 14th of July, 1995, on

11 the basis of the previous order that you have just seen that was issued by

12 General Krstic as the commander, and this has been issued by Colonel

13 Vidoje Blagojevic. Now, this document is a document that has been issued

14 based on the commander's order. It was issued by General Krstic; correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. If we could turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 536. Have you seen this

17 document before?

18 A. No, I don't think I did.

19 Q. Take just a moment to look at that document. Witness DB, this is

20 a document that is a daily combat report that was issued by the command of

21 the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade on the 15th of July, 1995, and it

22 was sent to the command of the Drina Corps, as well as the IKM, the

23 forward command post of the Drina Corps.

24 And if I can direct your attention to paragraph 2 in this

25 document, you will see that again this makes reference to the order issued

Page 7310












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7311

1 by General Krstic as the commander, and it says that, "Our forces are

2 still searching the terrain in accordance with your strictly confidential

3 order number 01/4-157/5, dated 13 July 1995."

4 Now, this is a combat report that has been sent directly to the

5 commander of the Drina Corps pursuant to the order that was issued by him

6 previously.

7 I see my colleague is on his feet, so ...

8 JUDGE RIAD: Yes, Mr. Petrusic.

9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence

10 objects. Referring to this order, the one we see on the ELMO, Mr. Harmon

11 said this was an order making reference, saying that this order was issued

12 by the commander, but in the quoted paragraph 2, it doesn't say

13 "commander" anywhere.

14 MR. HARMON: No, I fully agree with my colleague, but it makes

15 reference to order 01/4-157/5 which is the order, Prosecutor's Exhibit

16 463, which is the order that was issued by General Krstic as the commander

17 of the Drina Corps.

18 JUDGE RIAD: Would you like to add anything?

19 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] It's all right, then.

20 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you.


22 Q. This, in very short form, Witness DB, is the subordinate commander

23 responding to the commander pursuant to an order that was issued to him,

24 correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7312

1 Q. Now, let's turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 537A. Have you seen this

2 document before testifying?

3 A. I think I did.

4 Q. Okay. Now, let's then identify the individuals in the upper

5 left-hand corner. This document was sent by Colonel Ignjat Milanovic who,

6 I believe, was the corps air defence officer; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. It's dated the 15th of July, 1995, and it's directed to the

9 forward command post, attention of the commander. And in the first

10 paragraph, it references specifically "your orders," referring to,

11 presumably, the commander. Correct?

12 A. Yes. It refers to the person from whom he had received the order.

13 Q. Yes, that's correct. And the addressee at the forward command

14 post is identified as the commander, correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And on the 15th, General Zivanovic was not at the forward command

17 post, was he?

18 A. I should like to clarify one thing. Every forward command post

19 has its own commander. A forward command post is a temporary composition

20 consisting of units which are temporarily engaged for an operation, and

21 the command which was at the forward command post at Pribicevac or the

22 forward command post in Zepa, this forward command post would have its own

23 commander. So it's quite possible that this enactment of Colonel

24 Milanovic was addressed to the commander of the corps' forward command

25 post. Did you understand me?

Page 7313

1 The Corps Commander does not necessarily have to be always at the

2 forward command post. The forward command post can be commanded by his

3 deputy or the operations officer or a third person.

4 Q. And the first addressee on this document is the person identified

5 as the commander at the forward command post?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And this document deals with the subject matter of searching the

8 terrain that was found in the previous exhibit, 463, the order issued by

9 General Krstic, commander of the Drina Corps, on the 13th of July,

10 correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And Colonel Milanovic has ordered, in number two, he says, "The

13 assignment you have given to the commanders, to be carried out without

14 fail." So this is a reference back to the commander, and it is a proposal

15 that you will see at the end of the document, asking the commander, if you

16 agree with the proposal, to take certain actions.

17 Now, given the context of this document, Witness DB, to whom do

18 you think this document was directed?

19 A. I think it was directed to the three addressees indicated in the

20 right-hand corner of the page, that is, to the commander of the forward

21 command post of the corps, to the corps command, and to the -- to these

22 two units.

23 Q. Right. But the reference in the text is to an individual. In

24 accordance with "your" orders, the assignment "you" have given the

25 commanders, if "you" agree with the proposal. Who do you think the "you"

Page 7314

1 is in this document in light of the other documents that you have seen?

2 Do you think this document was being issued -- was being sent to the

3 commander of the Drina Corps?

4 A. The person who had issued that order, and it doesn't say here

5 which order is made reference to.

6 Q. Now, General Krstic, in his testimony in respect of this document,

7 indicated that the individual who was at the forward command post and who

8 was the commander at that location was himself.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. We'll move on from this document, and let me show you Prosecutor's

11 Exhibit 469.

12 MR. HARMON: And Madam Registrar, if we could have next in order

13 472, 478, 652.

14 Q. This is a document, Witness, that was provided to the Office of

15 the Prosecutor by the Republika Srpska Ministry of Defence, and this is

16 the decision to relieve General Zivanovic of the post of commander of the

17 Drina Corps.

18 Now, you have, I think, before you two documents in B/C/S. Am I

19 correct? And if you could put the first document ...

20 MR. HARMON: This is the cover letter that accompanied this

21 document, and you will see, Your Honours, that this is precisely what I

22 said: This is the decision to relieve General Zivanovic of the post.

23 Q. And if you could turn to the actual document itself, which is a

24 document -- it is the document that is the decree number 1-1419/95, and

25 this document was -- indicates that General Zivanovic was placed on

Page 7315

1 disposal of the Main Staff of the Republika Srpska army, and that he was

2 heretofore the commander of the Drina Corps, and that he is made available

3 for appointment from the 15th of July, 1995.

4 Can you comment on this document?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Let's go to Prosecutor's Exhibit 472A. This is an intercept from

7 the 15th of July. Now, this is a document that -- have you seen this

8 document before, Witness DB?

9 A. I think I have.

10 Q. Now, you can see that, on the 15th of July, at 0954 hours, the

11 participants in this document are General Zivanovic and Colonel Ljubo

12 Beara. And I will read you part of this document, and it says

13 essentially, from Beara, "You know that day, I informed the commander

14 about it, Furtula didn't send Lukic's intervention platoon." Further

15 down, Beara says, "He simply doesn't give a damn about what the commander

16 orders him to do. Well, now, that platoon has 60 men."

17 There is an inaudible portion by General Zivanovic.

18 Beara says: "Have him send at least half.

19 Zivanovic: Yes, yes.

20 Beara: Say again?

21 Zivanovic: To send them immediately.

22 Beara: Yes.

23 Zivanovic: I can't decide that any more."

24 Witness, why couldn't General Zivanovic, if he was the commander

25 of the Drina Corps, decide to send a subordinate unit to a specific

Page 7316

1 location?

2 A. I did not claim decidedly that he was Corps Commander then.

3 Q. But is it not consistent, this response by General Zivanovic, that

4 he couldn't order a subordinate unit, isn't that consistent with him no

5 longer being the Corps Commander?

6 A. Probably, as long as he cannot order something to be done by his

7 subordinate units, then he's no longer commander.

8 Q. Now, further down in this document, Beara says -- let me read on.

9 "I can't decide that any more.

10 Beara: Uh-huh.

11 Zivanovic: 385.

12 Beara: 385."

13 Zivanovic is inaudible.

14 Beara again: "385.

15 Zivanovic: That's right.

16 Beara: And that is, what telephone exchange is 385?

17 Zivanovic: Zlatar and 385 V.

18 Beara: Uh-huh, Zlatar.

19 Zivanovic: And stay on the line.

20 Beara: Uh-huh.

21 Zivanovic: And ask for extension 385."

22 Now, Zlatar, we know, is the command of the Drina Corps and 385 is

23 a number that you're familiar with as being one of the exchanges at the

24 Drina Corps command; isn't that correct?

25 A. I don't remember the numbers of switchboards, because they

Page 7317

1 changed.

2 Q. All right. Let's go to the next intercept, which is an intercept

3 of the same day that occurred six minutes later, and that is Exhibit 478.

4 You have seen the companion exhibit. You commented on this during your

5 direct examination. It was OTP Exhibit 477A. Let me draw your attention

6 in this intercept to the participants. One is Colonel Ljubo Beara and the

7 other participant is General Krstic. So again, in context, this is six

8 minutes after the phone call that was intercepted earlier that we just

9 talked about. And Beara starts the conversation:

10 "General, Furtula didn't carry out the boss's order.

11 Krstic: Listen, he ordered him to lead out a tank, not

12 a train.

13 Beara: But I need 30 men just like it was ordered.

14 Krstic: Take them from Nastic or Blagojevic, I can't pull

15 anybody out of here for you."

16 Now, I want to pause at this point on this exhibit. Remember in

17 Prosecutor's Exhibit 477 you were asked the question in respect of that

18 exhibit, who is Tasic, and did you know Sladojevic, and you answered that

19 you did not know who those individuals are. Do you know who Nastic is?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Who is Nastic?

22 A. Nastic was, in that period, commander of the Milici Brigade, I

23 think.

24 Q. And Blagojevic?

25 A. He was commander of the 1st Bratunac Infantry Brigade.

Page 7318

1 Q. And they were commanders of units that were participating in the

2 Zepa operation, weren't they?

3 A. Their units took part in the Zepa operation from the north part,

4 from the direction of Podravanje towards Zepa. I remember that period.

5 Due to the configuration of terrain, we were not able to communicate with

6 them, but Colonel Ignjat Milanovic was designated to coordinate the attack

7 from that direction.

8 Q. So in this intercept, you can see that -- I'm sorry -- in the

9 previous intercept, General Zivanovic could not order individuals be

10 taken, and in this order, General Krstic apparently has the ability to

11 order individuals who are subordinate commanders to provide men; correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And from this, can you draw the conclusion that General Krstic was

14 now the commander? Is this intercept consistent with the information that

15 you told Mr. Ruez on April the 4th?

16 A. I don't remember this conversation, whether Krstic was commander,

17 if this conversation took place on the 15th. We see from this that it is

18 probably him who decides about this request [as interpreted]. I haven't

19 read this till the end.

20 MR. HARMON: Please take your time.

21 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Harmon, what is the date of this conversation?

22 MR. HARMON: 15th of July.

23 Q. Okay. Now, this is a document that is consistent --

24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, page 114, line 7, the

25 witness said that he is probably the one who decides or who could decide,

Page 7319

1 so I think this second part of the phrase was left out. It says "probably

2 him who decides," but the words "who could decide" should also be added,

3 or perhaps Mr. Harmon could repeat his question.

4 MR. HARMON: I'm satisfied with that addition.

5 JUDGE RIAD: This is already an addition. Thank you.


7 Q. Witness DB, this is consistent with General Krstic having the

8 ability to command subordinate units; correct?

9 A. It can be seen from this that he appears to have had that

10 possibility.

11 Q. And that is consistent with what you told Mr. Ruez on the 4th of

12 April in your interview with him?

13 A. I told him that I wasn't sure that I had heard stories about that

14 handover of duty.

15 Q. Let me put it this way: It's consistent with the stories that you

16 heard?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Let's turn to the next Exhibit, which is Prosecutor's Exhibit

19 652. This is an intercepted communication from the 17th of July, and it

20 occurred at 0910 hours in the morning. Have you seen this intercept?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, let me -- this is -- the participants in this intercept are

23 X; Bedem, the code name, which is the Sarajevo-Romanija Brigade; Krstic;

24 and Veletic. And I will start at the top:

25 "Hello, is that Bedem?" That was X.

Page 7320

1 "B: Yes.

2 X: Listen Bedem, I need to talk to Colonel Veletic.

3 B: I hear that for the first time, believe me."

4 K, which is Krstic: "Bedem, Zlatar 01 here, do you hear me?

5 Over."

6 Now, let me stop right there. 01, you have previously testified,

7 "Zlatar 01" would mean the commander of the Drina Corps; correct?

8 A. Or the person who is a commander at any command post. He could be

9 the commander of the forward command post, who was the number-one man for

10 that provisional unit.

11 Q. All right. Well, let's continue on on this intercept and we might

12 be able to clarify this further.

13 "B: Bedem speaking, go ahead.

14 K: Give me Colonel Veletic from your IKM 3, your forward

15 command post.

16 Hold on a moment.

17 K: Krstic here."

18 Now, further down in this, it talks about, from Krstic:

19 "Listen Bedem. General Krstic is calling.

20 B: Yes?

21 Krstic: Tell Veletic I ordered that Lieutenant

22 Colonel Vlacic urgently return to the unit."

23 Now, Witness DB, it appears from the context of this intercept

24 that "Zlatar 01" is Krstic. Do you agree with me?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7321

1 Q. Now, "Bedem" is the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. We established that

2 earlier today; correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you know an individual named Veletic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And Veletic was the man who was on -- I'm sorry -- there was a

7 special group of soldiers that were assigned to the Trnovo area, and

8 Veletic was the commander of those groups; correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, is it common and ordinary for a commander at a forward

11 command post to issue these kinds of orders to a unit that is attached to

12 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps or is this consistent with an order that was

13 issued by the commander of the Drina Corps?

14 A. I don't know whether I understood you correctly. You asked me

15 whether it is all right for Zlatar 01 to issue orders to units which are

16 now under the command of Bedem, that is, the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

17 Q. My question, so we understand the context: Is this order that is

18 issued consistent with the -- an order issued by the commander of the

19 Drina Corps?

20 A. I don't understand the question.

21 Q. The Trnovo operation was taking place far away from the Zepa area

22 of responsibility?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. General Krstic was commanding, or at least -- commanding the

25 operation in the Zepa area; correct?

Page 7322

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is this kind of an order that you see General Krstic giving to an

3 attached unit consistent with the order given by the commander of the

4 Drina Corps in his role as the commander of the Drina Corps?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you understand my question?

7 A. I don't know whether I understand.

8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] If I may --

9 JUDGE RIAD: Yes, sir.

10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon, perhaps it would be

11 best that the term "consistent with" could be replaced with some kind of a

12 military term or another word that would be more readily understandable.

13 MR. HARMON: Well, thank you very much for the suggestion.

14 What we will do is we will move off of this document and we will

15 move to the next document, 481, Prosecutor's 481. Could you place the

16 English version on the ELMO and ...

17 Q. Very quickly, Witness, I'm sure you have seen this document

18 before, have you not?

19 A. I think that you will see for yourself that for my eyes it is

20 quite unusable.

21 Q. I see. Let me see -- I have a more usable copy, and you can

22 certainly use my copy.

23 Have you seen this document before?

24 A. I think not.

25 Q. This is a document that is dated the 17th of July, issued from the

Page 7323

1 Drina Corps command, and it is an order, and it is signed by General

2 Krstic. And in what capacity does he sign this order?

3 A. It says here in the capacity of Corps Commander.

4 Q. Now, have you had the experience where the document is signed on a

5 certain date and not transmitted for a number of days thereafter?

6 A. I think that this did occur for the documents that were not marked

7 as being urgent or operational, so there were such cases. Even now,

8 documents that are not urgent can wait to be dispatched for several days,

9 and to be delivered only then.

10 Q. Now, is this document marked urgent?

11 A. It doesn't say so anywhere.

12 Q. Now, is this a document that was prepared at the Drina Corps

13 command? Let me assist you. It may assist you if you turn to the last

14 page and you take a look at a set of initials that are at the end of the

15 text. Do you see the initials RJ/LJP?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. RJ is the person who prepared the order, and LJP is the typist,

18 correct?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. Is this -- is RJ Lieutenant Colonel Radenko Jovicic?

21 A. It could be because the subject matter in the heading fits within

22 the terms of reference of Lieutenant Colonel Jovicic.

23 Q. Was Lieutenant Colonel Radenko Jovicic ever in Zepa?

24 A. I think that he was not.

25 Q. Do you know who LJP is?

Page 7324

1 A. LJP is one of the ladies working in the typing office, one of the

2 typists in the pool of the command.

3 Q. Was there ever a female typist at the forward command post in

4 Zepa?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Where do you conclude, or can you conclude, therefore, where this

7 document originated?

8 A. Probably in the corps command.

9 Q. Let me turn to another document. It's Prosecutor's Exhibit 476.

10 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Harmon, you have to give us some information

11 because you are almost at the end of the five hours 20 minutes.

12 MR. HARMON: I have four documents to go, and I'm -- I will be --

13 four documents, and I want to ask then the witness one or two additional

14 questions after that. I'm trying to go through these documents as quickly

15 as I can.

16 JUDGE RIAD: I'll have to request the interpreters to be kind with

17 us today.

18 MR. HARMON: I would appreciate that. Thank you very much, Judge

19 Riad.

20 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. Thank you interpreters.


22 Q. Witness, I'm going to show you Prosecutor's Exhibit 467. This --

23 and if you could place the English on the ELMO. This is a document dated

24 the 17th of July, 1995. It has been issued by the Vidoje Blagojevic, the

25 commander of the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, and it references a

Page 7325

1 previous order dated the 14th of July, 1995, and it is informing the corps

2 of the Drina Corps -- I mean the command of the Drina Corps, that

3 representatives of the Bratunac Brigade will attend the official farewell

4 for General Zivanovic who was hitherto the commander of the Drina Corps.

5 And it identifies a going-away party date or a party -- I'm sorry, an

6 occasion on the 23rd of June, 1995.

7 A. You mentioned a document dated the 17th, Mr. Prosecutor. I don't

8 have that document in front of me.

9 Q. Well, you should have a handwritten document. Your hand is on it.

10 A. But it's dated the 14th.

11 Q. I'm sorry, then. You probably have a very poor copy, but if you

12 take a look at the very poor copy of the document, you'll see in the upper

13 left-hand corner where the date is a "17." Do you see that?

14 A. It could be the 17th. It cannot be seen very clearly, but I

15 suppose you can confirm that.

16 Q. All right. Now, this -- whether it's the 14th or whether it's the

17 17th, it says that General Zivanovic was hitherto the commander of the

18 Drina Corps. Do you see that?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. All right. Now, let me turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 679.

21 MR. HARMON: I have only two other exhibits after this.

22 Q. This, Witness DB, is an intercept of the 18th of July at 7.16 in

23 the morning. The participants are Krstic and Cerovic.

24 Now, Cerovic was Slobodan Cerovic who was the head of the

25 department of moral guidance and legal affairs in the Drina Corps,

Page 7326

1 correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And in this order -- this is an order that you can see -- or this

4 is an intercept that relates to an order to deploy Colonel Cerovic and to

5 take command of part of a unit or a unit. He's to deploy to a certain

6 location, and it is General Krstic informing the Cerovic that he's in

7 charge in whatever area he's been designated.

8 Let me ask you, first of all, did Colonel Cerovic come down to

9 Zepa to command any aspect of the operation in Zepa?

10 A. No.

11 Q. So this intercept deals with an order by General Krstic to a

12 subordinate member of the corps branch to assume command in an area

13 outside the Zepa area of responsibility, correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is that the kind of an order that would be given by a commander of

16 the Drina Corps?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Let's turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 364 and 394 [sic]. These

19 exhibits deal in part, Witness DB, with the situation that was occurring

20 in Trnovo, which, as we all have heard, was outside -- was in the area of

21 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps area of responsibility.

22 MR. HARMON: And Mr. Usher, if we could start with 364, 19 July --

23 let me start with 364/19, tab 1. It is an intercept that is timed, in the

24 upper left-hand corner, at 8.07. And if you would like to use my copy, I

25 have a B/C/S copy, we can ...

Page 7327

1 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Harmon, what is the --

2 MR. HARMON: Three -- I have a copy, I will provide it to the --

3 it's 364/19 July, tab 1, but I will give the witness the B/C/S version of

4 my copy.

5 Q. And let me ask you, have you seen this interview -- I'm sorry,

6 this intercept?

7 A. I think that I haven't.

8 Q. Take a moment to read it.

9 MR. HARMON: May I approach the ELMO and place the English version

10 of this on the ELMO?

11 JUDGE RIAD: Yes, Mr. Harmon.


13 Q. Witness, have you had an opportunity to read this document?

14 A. Just a moment, please. As far as I have been able to grasp this

15 message in view of the legibility of the handwriting.

16 Q. This was an intercept that was taken on the 19th of July at 0807

17 hours, and the correspondents are Colonel Cerovic and Major Eskic, and the

18 context of this is the rotation of men in the area of Trnovo.

19 And I will read one sentence of this. Colonel Cerovic -- this is

20 a summary of the intercept operator. Colonel Cerovic tells him there is a

21 commander's order about that and says, and then there's an exact quote,

22 and that refers to rotating men up at Trnovo. And at the end of this

23 intercept, it says, "I'll call Vinko right away and I'll call you. I'll

24 call the General down there."

25 Now, let me show you the next exhibit, which is Prosecutor's

Page 7328

1 Exhibit 694, which is related to this intercept. It is the conversation

2 that occurs five minutes later that is intercepted. This is -- Witness

3 DB, I'll give you an opportunity to look at this, and I'm going to direct

4 you to a certain part of it, but this was a conversation that was

5 intercepted five minutes later, and the correspondents are Colonel Cerovic

6 and Vinko. And Vinko is Vinko Pandurevic who is the commander of the

7 Zvornik Brigade, correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And I'd like to direct your attention to -- why don't you take a

10 quick look at that intercept. It's a long intercept, and I want to direct

11 your attention to a portion of it.

12 Do you see the portion where it starts out, "Well, I know that was

13 the order, that you sent ..."

14 MR. HARMON: This is on page 2, Mr. Usher.

15 Q. "Well, I know that was the order, that you've sent a report,

16 however, this Eskic has just called me from up there and said that he was

17 yesterday somewhere at your place and that he heard you are doing a shift

18 rotation."

19 Do you see that part in the B/C/S?

20 A. Yes, I think I do, though this was handwriting by the intercepter,

21 and it is very hard to read.

22 Q. I understand that. Let me read on from that. That was -- the

23 portion I read was Cerovic.

24 "Vinko: No. I did a rotation shift at Nisici.

25 Cerovic: I'm telling you, the report he sent there's not

Page 7329

1 way it can be done ... That's Krstic's order, there are

2 no shift rotations until further notice.

3 Vinko: It would be best if we transfer our complete Corps

4 to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

5 Cerovic: Yeah, that would be best.

6 Vinko: No, seriously, I've sent you a report yesterday.

7 You could see what kind of losses we sustained.

8 Cerovic: Yes and I presented that to Krstic and wrote him

9 special/report/based on your interim and daily reports.

10 Vinko: Yes, That's correct."

11 Now, I want to go back to the section that says, "That's Krstic's

12 order, there are no shift rotations until further notice." Witness DB,

13 this deals with shift rotations of the Drina Corps elements that were

14 attached to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps fighting around the area of

15 Trnovo. Do you agree with me?

16 A. I think that it refers to those events.

17 Q. And the order that there would be no shift rotations is consistent

18 with an order that would be issued by the commander of the Drina Corps; is

19 that correct?

20 A. Yes, whoever is competent.

21 Q. Now, that concludes my examination of this document, Witness DB.

22 I want to ask you -- touch on one additional subject. Yesterday my

23 colleague showed you OTP Exhibit 789, which is a transcript from a tape

24 recording of an intercept.

25 Now, let me show you this Prosecutor's Exhibit 789. You've seen

Page 7330

1 this because you testified about this the other day. It references

2 cowboys. Do you remember that document?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you have occasion to listen to the tape recording from which

5 this transcript was prepared?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you recognise any voices on that tape recording?

8 A. I cannot assert with certainty, because out of the three, two

9 participants can be heard very poorly.

10 Q. Did any of those voices sound familiar to you, even given that

11 they were faint?

12 A. No.

13 MR. HARMON: Thank you very much, Witness DB. I've concluded my

14 examination.

15 Thank you, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. Harmon.

17 Mr. Petrusic, you are entitled to a reply.

18 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it will be far

19 briefer than the amount of time we thought we would need.

20 Re-examined by Mr. Petrusic:

21 Q. Witness DB, I should like to go back to Exhibit 481.

22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the usher for his

23 assistance to place it on the ELMO, please, 481.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Give us a moment, please.

25 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence will put

Page 7331

1 the English version.

2 Q. Witness DB, this is an order issued on the 17th of July, 1995.

3 Will you please look at the last page. Is there a stamp of the military

4 post office box Zvornik on the back of one of the pages?

5 A. Yes. Yes.

6 Q. This is the incoming stamp when this was received on the 17th of

7 July, 1995 [as interpreted]?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. That was received by the military post code of the Zvornik

10 Brigade?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is it possible that -- we know that the day when it was typed out

13 was the 17th of July, 1995?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think in line 23

16 there is an error, page 126, line 2. It says the incoming stamp was of

17 the 17th of July. Actually, the date is the 23rd of July -- 24th of

18 July.

19 JUDGE RIAD: Yes, we can see that. Thank you.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

21 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. So the incoming stamp on this document is of the 24th of July,

23 1995?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The day when it was typed out is the 17th of July?

Page 7332












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7333

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You said this document was not urgent.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is it possible that between these two dates, the 17th and the 24th

5 of July, this document was actually signed by General Krstic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So you do not exclude -- rule out the possibility that this

8 document could have been signed after the 17th of July?

9 A. I do not.

10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] With the usher's assistance, I

11 would like to take Exhibit 463, 464, and 537 -- 536 and 537, and please

12 prepare 464, 536 and 537.

13 Q. This is an order signed by General Krstic, issued on the 13th of

14 July, 1995. Below the word "order" in the first paragraph, General Krstic

15 issues the order to the 1st Bratunac Brigade to carry out a ground search

16 of the former enclave of Srebrenica. So will you please read out the

17 location of this ground search.

18 A. Until the line Ravni Buljim/excluded/Zvijezda/elevation

19 906/Siljato Brdo/Slapovici, along the Zeleni Jadar River Bank up to Zeleni

20 Jadar bridge/excluded.

21 Q. The next Exhibit is 464, and that is an order by Colonel

22 Blagojevic. Did Colonel Blagojevic refer in this order to the order which

23 was quoted a moment ago?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is the location of the ground search identical to the order to

Page 7334

1 which he refers?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The next exhibit is 536. While this exhibit is still on the ELMO,

4 please look at the order given to subordinate units by Colonel

5 Blagojevic.

6 A. Yes, so the terrain which should be searched.

7 Q. Are the features designated by Colonel Blagojevic identical to the

8 features?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Exhibit 536. Will you please put

11 it on the ELMO.

12 Q. Witness DB, the previous order, which was Exhibit 464, in the

13 first paragraph -- do you have that order?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In the first paragraph, below the word "order," the assignment is

16 given to search the terrain on the location of Bratunac, Konjevic Polje,

17 and so on. My question was: In the order of General Krstic dated the

18 13th of July, which was Exhibit 463, does this order refer to the location

19 of Konjevic Polje?

20 A. No. I apologise, Mr. Petrusic. Perhaps fatigue is taking its

21 toll. There is no reference to the features. The features that were to

22 be searched were designated by General Krstic, and it is not the same as

23 the ones referred to by the commander of the 1st Bratunac Brigade.

24 Q. So the commander of the 1st Bratunac Brigade departs from the

25 order?

Page 7335

1 A. Yes, he does. I know this area very well, and he is actually

2 mentioning a territory, a piece of land entirely on a different side of

3 the enclave.

4 Q. We will move on to Exhibit 536. I would again refer you to the

5 paragraph 2 of this order. And in view of the order issued on the 13th of

6 July, Exhibit 463 and Exhibit 536, are the locations of ground search

7 identical?

8 A. No.

9 Q. So in this case as well we have a deviation from what is written

10 in the order?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. The next exhibit is 537. My question is the same with reference

13 to this exhibit, 537. Is the assignment determined by Colonel Milanovic,

14 referring to General Krstic's order, which was Exhibit 463, identical to

15 this original assignment?

16 A. No, it does not correspond to the order of General Krstic.

17 Q. So this is a departure?

18 A. Yes, it is a departure. It is a completely different activity to

19 the one defined by General Krstic in his order.

20 Q. And towards the bottom, towards the end of this order of the

21 Exhibit 463, you spoke about the commander of the forward command post.

22 Do you allow the possibility that this signature was made in that

23 capacity?

24 A. This possibility exists.

25 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness DB.

Page 7336

1 Mr. President, the Defence has no further questions.

2 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. Petrusic.

3 Judge Wald, would you like to ask a question?

4 JUDGE WALD: Witness, I have only one question to ask you. Early

5 on, you talked about the period between the time that a commander is

6 appointed and the time when he actually assumes the duties. This is a

7 period eventuating in a handover ceremony of some sort and then he assumes

8 the functions of his new post; is that right? I mean, that is what I

9 thought you were talking about early on in your testimony when you talked

10 about the difference between his being appointed by the President

11 Karadzic's decree and the -- whatever time the ceremony took place in the

12 restaurant with all of the other generals.

13 My only question to you is: Do you know whether or not that

14 notion of the handover being necessary before somebody takes on the duties

15 of the new post, is that actually in a regulation someplace in the VRS

16 manual or regulations, or is it more in the domain of a kind of custom,

17 military custom? I mean, have you ever seen such a regulation? I don't

18 expect you to know it off the top of your head, but do you ever remember

19 reading such a regulation which says there shall be such a ceremony and

20 the person will not assume the duties of his new office until that

21 ceremony has been completed?

22 A. The ceremony is prescribed, I think, in the rules of the service

23 of the Republika Srpska army, and it is titled "Handover of Duty,"

24 handover/takeover of duty. Briefly, it implies that, in front of a

25 lined-up unit, the old commander and the new commander should come,

Page 7337

1 accompanied by someone from the superior command, preferably a commander

2 who is elder to them, and then there are other parts of the ceremony which

3 are less important. It is --

4 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

6 JUDGE WALD: I wasn't so much interested in the details of the

7 ceremony as the fact that -- is it left completely to the new commander

8 about to be and the old commander who is taking leave, is it up to them to

9 set whatever kind of date they want? I mean, they could make it a week,

10 they could make it a month, there's no set time; it's just up to them to

11 decide when they actually want to pass command along?

12 A. The one who orders such a pass-over duty, he also prescribes the

13 time frame within which it has to take place.

14 JUDGE WALD: Who would that, who would that be? Because here we

15 have President Karadzic saying that the appointment will be effective on

16 the decree July 15th. So who would then decide, no, we're not going to

17 have a takeover ceremony until the 20th?

18 A. In this case, since it is the position of Corps Commander, the

19 commander of the Main Staff should write a document which would briefly

20 say, based on the decree of the president of the Republic dated such and

21 such date regarding the appointment of General Krstic as the new commander

22 of Drina Corps, effect the takeover of duty to --

23 JUDGE WALD: Did you ever see such a document in this case, or do

24 you know whether any such document was drawn up by anybody in this

25 particular case when General Zivanovic gave up the position to General

Page 7338

1 Krstic?

2 A. I did not see that document, and I asked counsel Petrusic whether

3 he had that document because that document is tale-telling. He answered

4 that neither the Prosecutor or the Defence were able to find that document

5 which would explain a lot. And that document had to be drafted because it

6 is only on the basis of that document that somebody could have become

7 commander of the corps and receive all the benefits and prerogatives, et

8 cetera.

9 JUDGE WALD: Well, my final question on this is, just suppose --

10 I'm just trying to understand the system -- just suppose between the time

11 that the president appointed General Krstic and said it was effective as

12 of July 15th, suppose something happened to General Zivanovic. Suppose he

13 disappeared, or he was injured in some way so that he simply was out of

14 the picture. You don't mean to say that General Krstic couldn't take over

15 the duties without General Zivanovic being there to hand them over in that

16 case, do you?

17 A. He not only could not have taken over that duty, he had to take it

18 over in that kind of situation.

19 JUDGE WALD: So in that kind of situation, the practicalities, the

20 exigencies would rule, right, because it was wartime?

21 Okay, thank you, Witness.

22 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Judge Wald.

23 Witness DB, I want to make sure that I understood one of your

24 statements right. In one of the answers to -- in the cross-examination of

25 Prosecutor, you said that the chain of command in the Srebrenica operation

Page 7339

1 was intact. That's what I got. And then afterwards you're speaking about

2 Mladic ordering you to establish the forward command post of Krivace after

3 the meeting at 22 hours at night. And also when you were asked about

4 General Krstic approval, you said the agreement of General Krstic was

5 automatically implied.

6 Now, was this the case always with -- I mean, in the chain of

7 command that you accept, implied agreement, or is there any manifestation

8 -- since he doesn't say no, he's supposed to be in agreement? Is this

9 part of the system?

10 A. I said that the chain of command was not broken globally speaking

11 because the Srebrenica operation was underway; it continued.

12 JUDGE RIAD: Was not broken. I mean, it was the discipline of the

13 army and the orders had to pass through the chain of command?

14 A. Yes, sir. Generally speaking, commanders in the field always

15 received orders.

16 JUDGE RIAD: Yes. In the case of this implicit -- this automatic

17 agreement of General Krstic, he could have said "no."

18 A. The rules allow it, but then he would have to be prepared to bear

19 the consequences of such a response.

20 JUDGE RIAD: And in your army, what were the consequences?

21 A. I had no such experience with such cases, but he would have had to

22 explain why he was against it, why he was saying "no." He would have had

23 to say, "No, I disagree, and I have a different proposal."

24 JUDGE RIAD: Yes. Of course I'm speaking of in case of the

25 interest, in the interest of his mission. I'm not speaking of mutiny, of

Page 7340

1 course. If someone doesn't want to execute an order because he doesn't

2 feel it is the right one, he's entitled to reject it?

3 A. Yes, he is entitled to refuse and explain why he is refusing that

4 order.

5 JUDGE RIAD: Witness DB, I would like again to reiterate my thanks

6 to you. You have cooperated with us. You said that the fatigue has taken

7 its toll on you, but I think it has taken its toll more on the other

8 people. You were very cooperative. And I would like to thank all those

9 who really have been enduring this long trial today, but we had to do it

10 so you can go back home safely. Thank you very much.

11 We have admission of documents. Yes, sir.

12 MR. HARMON: Yes, Judge Riad. Let me express my thanks, too, to

13 the staff who worked late and to Witness DB for enduring the

14 cross-examination.

15 If I could --

16 JUDGE RIAD: You even owe him an apology, I think. Not to the

17 Judges.

18 MR. HARMON: Well, I appreciate the patience of the witness, thank

19 you.

20 Let me move for admission, then, the following exhibits:

21 Prosecutor's Exhibit 145/2 which was the slow-motion video. Prosecutor

22 Exhibits 764/4 through 764/20A and B, those are the receipts from the

23 Fontana Hotel.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me, and C.

25 MR. HARMON: And C, where appropriate.

Page 7341

1 765 and 765A and B, the Zepa film and the transcript. 776A and B,

2 which is the Krivaja 95 communications order. 784A and B, which is the --

3 this is the VRS communications manual. 785, which is a map.

4 819/1, 819/2, and 820, which are video stills taken from the film

5 at Zepa. 821A and B, which is the Vukovic report dated 19 April. 822A

6 and B which is -- we're moving to admit under seal, is a Drina Corps order

7 dated the 19th of April, 1994. 823A and B, a Drina Corps order dated the

8 2nd of November, 1994. 824A and B, which is a Bratunac Brigade deployment

9 order dated the 4th of June, 1995.

10 825A and B we're moving to admit under seal. It is the article

11 that was testified about. 826 is -- I'm sorry, 826 is a still from a

12 video showing a man in a black uniform with a radio pack on his back.

13 827A and B is an intelligence report from the East Bosnia Corps command

14 dated the 23rd of July, 1995.

15 830A and B and 831A and B, these are documents that were provided

16 by the Defence on 18 February 2000. Respectively, they are an 11 July

17 order; there are two 11 July orders. And those are the exhibits that were

18 tendered by the Prosecutor.

19 JUDGE RIAD: Just in passing, there is a mention here of Judge

20 Rodrigues, and I just want to say that he is not present today, but he'll

21 be present next time. So I don't know why they mention his name here,

22 just before the end of the page. So I just want to draw that attention.

23 Mr. Petrusic, do you have any comment?

24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] The Defence has no objection, but

25 we would like to request a clarification from Mr. Harmon regarding Exhibit

Page 7342

1 765. That is the video film. Is that also part of the material seized or

2 obtained from Republika Srpska?

3 MR. HARMON: I am not in a position to give you an answer at this

4 point the source of that film. I can reserve my application for admission

5 of that exhibit, and then I can provide the Trial Chamber with further

6 information when we're --

7 JUDGE RIAD: So with the exception of this?

8 MR. HARMON: Yes, with the exception of the film, and then that

9 would affect the film and the transcript which would be Exhibit 765 and

10 765A and B. We would withdraw our application for admission at this time

11 and move to admit them at a later time.

12 JUDGE RIAD: Is this satisfactory, Mr. Petrusic, his answer?

13 Good, thank you.

14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE RIAD: It is admitted with the exception of what you

16 mentioned.

17 I bring this trial today to an end, and thank you again.

18 Yes, Mr. Petrusic. Yes?

19 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] [No translation]

20 JUDGE RIAD: You have to speak in English, please.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

22 MR. HARMON: I think the interpreters have abandoned their posts.

23 JUDGE RIAD: They are entitled to. Can you say it in English,

24 Mr. Visnjic?

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are here.

Page 7343

1 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Do you hear the interpretation?

2 JUDGE RIAD: Yes, thank you. Say it again then, please.

3 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] During the examination of this

4 witness, the Defence did not have exhibits, so we do not move for the

5 introduction of any exhibits, for the admission of any exhibits.

6 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.30 p.m., to

8 be reconvened on Monday the 20th day of November,

9 2000, at 9:20 a.m.