Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9177

1 Monday, 2 April 2001

2 [Open Session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, ladies and

6 gentlemen. Good morning to the technicians, the interpreters. Good

7 morning representatives of the registry, counsel for the Prosecution, the

8 Defence. Good morning, General Krstic.

9 We will continue with the rebuttal of the Prosecutor today in this

10 case in order to complete the testimony which was left incomplete last

11 time.

12 Mr. McCloskey, you have the floor.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, and good morning, Mr. President, Your

14 Honours, Defence counsel.

15 We have Mr. Butler. He should be ready to come in, and if we

16 could start off in private session just briefly. The Defence and the

17 Prosecution have been working on some stipulations for -- oh, some for

18 quite a while and some just recently, and I'd like to go over those and

19 tell you about what we have agreed to and what we are offering as

20 additional evidence this morning, somewhat through Mr. Butler, but it

21 should also be brief, if the Court would consider that. But if we could

22 go into private session.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. We will move

24 into private session for a few moments.

25 [Private session]

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19 [Open session]

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in public session,

21 Mr. McCloskey. Please continue.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I would refer the Court to the

23 trial transcripts pages 7392 to 7393 for the particular areas that

24 Mr. Butler's testimony will be rebutting, involves General Krstic's

25 response to questions about his knowledge of when prisoners were first

Page 9188

1 being taken by the VRS.

2 Mr. Butler -- first of all, could we have Exhibit 878A shown to

3 Mr. Butler, as well as if you could provide him with Exhibit 879, which is

4 a map.

5 And as they're getting to those documents, Mr. Butler, was this

6 document and the following document, which is 877, were they part of your

7 initial narrative and your study in this case?

8 A. They were material that I had looked at but that I had not

9 included in my narrative.

10 Q. And why was that?

11 A. Given what these issues discuss now, they probably should have

12 been, and I would suspect that I just missed them in the process of

13 collating all the material around.

14 Q. Where did these two documents come from? How did they come into

15 OTP possession?

16 A. Exhibit 878 was a document that was seized from the headquarters

17 of the Zvornik Brigade during a search by the Office of the Prosecutor.

18 Q. And if we could get 877 ready for him also.

19 And you know what 877 is, the daily combat report.

20 A. Yes, sir, same circumstances; it came into the possession of the

21 Office of the Prosecutor as part of that same search.

22 Q. All right. If you could, and if you need to use the ELMO to help

23 illustrate it, can you just explain briefly this document and how it fits

24 into your analysis and especially where it refers to prisoners being

25 taken.

Page 9189

1 A. This particular document is an intelligence report, a report from

2 the assistant commander -- or assistant chief of staff for intelligence of

3 the Zvornik Brigade, Captain Dusko Vukotic to the command of the Drina

4 Corps, and if I slide that down, you can see that better. It's to their

5 intelligence section.

6 What this document does is gives the Drina Corps intelligence

7 section a breakdown of the situation in the zone of the Zvornik Brigade as

8 the intelligence officer of the Zvornik Brigade understands it. In this

9 case, he's getting the majority of the information that he's receiving

10 from intercepting of Muslim communications from the various segments of

11 the column, the advanced part of the column, the second part of the

12 column, then the main body of the column, which is still to the south.

13 Relevant to prisoners, what this document indicates down at the

14 last three lines or last four or five lines is the fact that they talk

15 about a third group of prisoners being discovered in the -- third group of

16 individuals in the area of Bokcanski Potok. He notes that the individuals

17 are fleeing in panic without any control and, in groups or individually,

18 they are giving themselves up to the MUP or the army.

19 Q. Could you now use the map, Exhibit 879, and put it on the ELMO and

20 just give the Court a brief outline of the -- where Bokcanski Potok is and

21 where the intelligence people feel the various parts of the column are at

22 the time of this document.

23 A. At the time of this document, which was drafted on the 12th but

24 not physically received by the Drina Corps until 1.00 in the morning on

25 the 13th, the situation, as they understood it, was that the main elements

Page 9190

1 or the -- the advanced elements of the column were in this area here,

2 moving out. Another larger group of armed soldiers from the column --

3 Q. Excuse me, if you could just say where it is, for the record.

4 A. Through the Caparde and Spreca valley. The second element of the

5 column which consisted of what they called approximately 300 or 400 armed

6 people moving up through the greater Kamenica area, which is Redzici,

7 Velja Glava. Then the third series of the column, which was the main body

8 of the column, the very long part in this area referred to as Bokcanski

9 Potok which is an area that we frequently call -- it's the other side of

10 the road from the Sandici meadow in Kravica area.

11 Q. Now, if we could go to Exhibit 877. If you could briefly

12 describe -- we've seen many of these documents but how does -- does this

13 document help identify units that may be in the area where prisoners are

14 being taken on 12 July by -- according to the document we just looked at?

15 A. This specific document is the 12 July 1995 combat report, the

16 regular combat report to the commander of the Drina Corps from the command

17 of the 1st Zvornik Brigade, and in paragraph 2, discusses the primary

18 tasks for the units and, in that, the brigade chief of staff, in this case

19 Dragan Obrenovic, lays out where elements of both the brigade and -- to

20 include some of the military police assets of the brigade are located in

21 ambush positions relative to where they believe the column is approaching

22 or where the Muslim armed forces are.

23 Q. So if there is one military police detachment sent to Konjevic

24 Polje, that would be roughly in what area, looking at the map just to

25 remind us?

Page 9191

1 A. Going back to the map, Konjevic Polje area is right where the turn

2 comes off from the road from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje and then going

3 down towards Milici. It is a major intersection area. And as previous

4 witness and my own testimony has indicated, that was a -- one of the

5 collection sites for Muslims who were being collected. They had made it

6 further up the road as they were crossing the road from Konjevic Polje to

7 Milici. As they crossed that highway, those that were caught, many were

8 held in Konjevic Polje, others were held in Nova Kasaba.

9 Q. And those -- that happened on the 13th that we know of; is that

10 right?

11 A. That is correct. The major captures of the Muslims took place on

12 the 13th.

13 Q. Now, this exhibit, the daily combat report on 877A notes about the

14 military police detachment sent to Konjevic Polje, and it says,

15 "... pursuant to your order." So what is -- can you tell us, "pursuant

16 to your order," who do you take that to mean?

17 A. As broad as it is, I would take that to be pursuant to an order

18 from the Drina Corps command.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have no further questions, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

21 Mr. McCloskey.

22 Mr. Visnjic, please.

23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Visnjic:

25 Q. Mr. Butler, let me go back to this last document. It is the daily

Page 9192

1 combat report of the 12th of July 1995. Who compiled this daily combat

2 report, Mr. Butler?

3 A. These daily combat reports would have been compiled by the -- by

4 procedure, it should have been the operations duty officer of the Zvornik

5 Brigade.

6 Q. The signature is the commander, Lieutenant Colonel Vinko

7 Pandurevic. Was his presence confirmed during that period?

8 A. During this period, Colonel Pandurevic was down in the area of

9 Srebrenica. The reports in question were -- this one is not signed, but

10 the majority of the reports during this period were signed for him by the

11 chief of staff, now Major Obrenovic.

12 Q. Mr. Butler, did your investigations show a hypothetical assignment

13 that this group from the Zvornik Brigade - and it is a department of the

14 military police - was to have executed in the Konjevic Polje area?

15 A. I'm confused about the word that translated into English as a

16 "hypothetical."

17 Q. Let me rephrase that. Did your investigation ascertain the

18 assignments that this group had in Konjevic Polje, and I'm referring to

19 the group of the -- that is to say, the military police department,

20 detachment.

21 A. Putting it in context with the intercepts that we have, which I

22 think several of them pertain to police units in the area of Konjevic

23 Polje, the two options are, one, combat-related activity to defend that

24 intersection from the column, or the second one would be a traditional

25 military police function of dealing with the prisoner issues. But at this

Page 9193

1 point, I'm not able to say exactly what the function was. It does not

2 specify an ambush function like it does in the previous one on a military

3 police platoon, but again, I can't specify what the function was.

4 Q. Let me assist you. Could one function be the establishment of a

5 checkpoint for the control of traffic, for example, vehicles moving in

6 that direction?

7 A. That is an option and, again, given other information that, on the

8 13th, checkpoints were established there, it is a viable option, yes,

9 sir.

10 Q. That means, then, that we have three possible options at this

11 stage of our exchange of opinions, if I can put it that way; am I right?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. Mr. Butler, let me go back to a series of questions briefly that

14 was put by my learned colleague, Mr. McCloskey.

15 Without any specific details, the Polje at Sandici, the Sandici

16 meadow, we identified a tank which was within the composition of the MUP

17 units. We identified the soldiers as well who were also MUP members. Am

18 I right in saying that?

19 A. The soldiers, as we discussed earlier, yes. Again, the issue was

20 a compilation of both MUP and soldiers. As for the issue of the tank,

21 that one individual identifies it as a MUP tank, yes.

22 Q. But we have a precise identification only for the MUP members. So

23 far you haven't identified any of the members of the army; am I right in

24 saying that?

25 A. That is correct. The --

Page 9194

1 Q. Thank you. Mr. Butler, in the events at Jadar, a member of MUP

2 was also identified. Now, my question is: Was a member of the Drina

3 Corps identified who took part in those events?

4 A. To be clear on that, I'm not sure of the answer. I just don't

5 recall the details.

6 Q. Mr. Butler, the Branjevo farm events, the members of the 10th

7 Diversionary Detachment were identified and, in your previous testimony,

8 those of another unit which I don't want to specify now because we're in

9 open session, so I won't be mentioning that unit. But was a member of the

10 Bratunac Brigade identified? Just give us a yes or no answer, please.

11 A. No, sir.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to ask

14 the registry to give the witness and members of the Prosecution Exhibit

15 D165, please.

16 Q. Mr. Butler, before we move on to this exhibit and to give a chance

17 to the Prosecution to look through the document, I would like to ask you

18 the following: During your testimony in the Prosecution case, you spoke

19 about the use of MUP by -- that is to say, in the combat activities in the

20 Srebrenica enclave and the Krivaja 95 operation; am I right?

21 A. That is correct.

22 Q. You also in your testimony mentioned that one of the -- what led

23 you to believe this at one point was that the MUP forces were mentioned in

24 the Operation Krivaja 95 as reserve forces. Am I right?

25 A. That is correct, sir.

Page 9195

1 Q. You also in the course of your testimony, the main part of your

2 testimony, you said that the MUP forces were used by the army of Republika

3 Srpska, but that you did not have a document which directly indicates that

4 order; that is to say, you don't have the order of the Drina Corps on the

5 deployment of those forces. Am I right in saying that?

6 A. At the time, I do not have a document, yes.

7 Q. Mr. Butler, the units who were located on the line Konjevic

8 Polje-Bratunac, were they MUP units?

9 A. They were a mixture of both MUP and army, sir.

10 Q. What about the units that provided security for this axis,

11 Konjevic Polje-Bratunac; were they also a mixture of MUP and army?

12 A. What I've been able to put together based on the documents and the

13 recent interviews, and of course I won't go into detail, is that the line

14 as it extended was the units closest to Bratunac were the 1st Battalion

15 Bratunac Brigade. The units that extended up from the area of -- and

16 perhaps it's better if I use the map on this one.

17 This location being Bratunac, and again, here the intersection of

18 Konjevic Polje, in this segment closer to Bratunac is the 1st Battalion of

19 the Bratunac Brigade, and then you go up to the area of Glogova, from the

20 area of Glogova through Kravica, and a little beyond is the 4th Battalion

21 of the Bratunac Brigade which, as identified earlier, is also the 8th

22 Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade. It was performing duty as part of the

23 Bratunac Brigade at that time. And then from beyond that, from the area

24 between Sandici and Konjevic Polje, what we've been able to determine is

25 at least the 1st Company of the police, the Special Police intervention

Page 9196

1 unit that came out of CSB Zvornik, as well as some elements of the Special

2 Police Brigade.

3 Q. Mr. Butler, on the 13th of July in the afternoon hours at the

4 positions between Konjevic Polje and Glogova -- or Konjevic Polje and

5 Bratunac, to take it further afield, on the 13th of July, were members

6 identified, members of these two battalions, the Bratunac Brigade, on that

7 route, road?

8 A. [Previous translation continues] ... recent interviewees that

9 we've done.

10 Q. I mean your investigations, were you able to come up with that,

11 that on that road there were members of these two battalions on the 13th

12 of July in the afternoon? You can give us a yes or no answer again; we

13 don't need the details.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I would like the witness to be able

15 to explain, if he needs to.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Go ahead, Mr. Visnjic.

17 The question -- you were asked to give a yes or no answer, but if

18 you wish to explain, you may do so.

19 A. The answer is, as part of the investigation, in the case of the

20 1st Battalion, yes; in the case of the 4th Battalion, the documents

21 reflect that, not a physical aspect of the investigation. As in the case

22 of the MUP, that's part of the physical investigation.

23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Butler, was one of the tasks of the 1st Battalion to move from

25 the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road southwards into the depth of the

Page 9197

1 territory and, in fact, to leave the road, get away from the road, in the

2 period between the 12th and 13th, and especially on the afternoon of the

3 13th of July? Am I correct in saying this?

4 A. That is correct, sir.

5 Q. Thank you. Mr. Butler, I should now like to ask you to look at

6 the document that you have before you, it is Defence Exhibit D165, but one

7 more question before we go on to the document. You know the assertion by

8 the Defence that the units which controlled the Konjevic Polje-Bratunac

9 road were outside the chain of command of the Drina Corps. You know that

10 we say that.

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Mr. Butler, there was some discussion about that, and Defence

13 witnesses were questioned as well as Prosecution witnesses on that

14 particular issue. I should now like to ask you to look at document 165A.

15 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] It is a document, Mr. President,

16 which the Defence came by directly prior to this meeting, this sitting,

17 and the document has been translated. If our colleagues of the

18 Prosecution have any comments to make with respect to the translation, we

19 will -- we are ready to accept this, but it is a document which was issued

20 by the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska, and it is signed by the

21 chief of the intelligence department, General Zdravko Tolimir.

22 Q. Mr. Butler, first of all, could I ask you to peruse the document

23 before we go on to my concrete questions. I'm sure you need a few moments

24 to look at it, and as do my learned colleagues of the Prosecution.

25 A. Okay, sir.

Page 9198

1 Q. Mr. Butler, have you seen this document before?

2 A. No, sir, I've not.

3 Q. Mr. Butler, does this document correspond to the standard form

4 used for documents with this kind of contents compiled by the organs of

5 the Republika Srpska army in the course of July 1995?

6 A. For the most part, it does; however, the one anomaly that I would

7 note is that usually as part of the header data -- and probably to make

8 that clear to everybody, this is the information that I refer to as the

9 header data, who it's to and under what circumstances, to or for

10 information. Generally the date is there, and on this document, we don't

11 see the date at that part; however, there is a date of 12 July on the back

12 as well as an order number. Normally, we see those at the front, and that

13 would leave me a bit of a question. But other than those things, it is a

14 pretty standard format.

15 Q. Mr. Butler, in view of the format of this document, am I right in

16 saying that this document was compiled by Major General Zdravko Tolimir,

17 in those days member of the Main Staff of Republika Srpska?

18 A. In this particular case, it was certainly released under his

19 signature, yes.

20 Q. Am I right in saying, Mr. Butler, that this document was issued on

21 the 12th of July 1995 and that it reached the command of the 2nd Romanija

22 Motorised Brigade on that same day at 2210 hours?

23 A. I believe that's -- it certainly reached the command of the

24 Romanija Brigade, 2nd Romanija Brigade at that time. So given all of

25 that, I would say -- I would be pretty comfortable saying that it's the

Page 9199

1 12th of July, yes, sir.

2 Q. Am I also right in saying that the document was registered in the

3 book of records the next day, the 13th of July 1995, as can be seen from

4 the stamp on this document?

5 A. Yes, sir. That's consistent with the practice, as I understand

6 it.

7 Q. Mr. Butler, this document was sent to several addressees. Among

8 others, one of the addressees is the forward command post at Pribicevac,

9 to General Krstic in person. My question is whether, on the 12th of July

10 1995 late in the evening, the forward command post at Pribicevac was

11 operational?

12 A. I believe that it is my opinion, and it is the Prosecution's

13 contention, that the forward command post at Pribicevac did remain

14 operational during this period. I do not believe that it shut down,

15 consistent with some of the Defence witnesses, at midnight or earlier on

16 the evening of the 11th. I believe it remained operational.

17 Q. And according to your contention, until when did that forward

18 command post continue to operate?

19 A. I believe that, consistent with some of the exhibits that were

20 forwarded either through my testimony or through the cross-examination of

21 General Krstic, there is one particular order there dated the 13th of July

22 that is also addressed to the forward command post at Pribicevac and I do

23 not know the number of that exhibit, unfortunately. So it's my contention

24 that certainly the Drina Corps headquarters had an understanding that on

25 the 13th of July, the forward command post at Pribicevac was still in some

Page 9200

1 form of operation.

2 Q. The documents were addressed to the forward command post at

3 Pribicevac, but do you have any evidence to show that they were received

4 there?

5 A. On the 13th, no.

6 Q. And on the 12th?

7 A. I believe that during the cross-examination of one of the

8 witnesses, I believe who was a protected witness so I will not mention his

9 name, the Prosecution forwarded a document that was received late evening,

10 early morning hours of 12 July. I believe it was the late evening of the

11 11th to the early morning of the 12th of July.

12 Q. Mr. Butler -- let me withdraw that. Is that the only piece of

13 evidence on the basis of which you assume that this forward command post

14 was operating or, rather, receiving documents?

15 A. No, sir, it's not.

16 Q. Mr. Butler, the document before you, Defence Exhibit D165,

17 consists of two parts, if I can call them that. In the first, there is a

18 description of information based on an interview with a prisoner of war.

19 I should like to draw your attention to the second part of this document

20 which begins, in fact, on page 2. Particularly the first paragraph of the

21 document, which reads: "We have informed Ministry of Internal Affairs of

22 Republika Srpska organs who are stationed in Konjevic Polje with the legal

23 corridor through which the Muslims of Srebrenica are breaking through

24 considering that they have the assignment to secure the Bratunac-Konjevic

25 Polje communication." Is that statement correct or true?

Page 9201

1 A. I am aware that -- notwithstanding the truthfulness of the

2 translation, I will assume that's accurate. But I'm aware that during the

3 period there was in fact a small MUP detachment at Konjevic Polje. I do

4 not believe that they had the entire -- they had the job of -- they had

5 the role of securing the entire line of communication between Bratunac and

6 Konjevic Polje. It's an awful long stretch of road, and there weren't

7 that many MUP formations there. I think it would be pretty impossible for

8 them to do that.

9 Q. Mr. Butler, if we look at page 1 and see to whom the document was

10 addressed, the MUP of Republika Srpska and RDB, in the Defence submission,

11 that is the Department of State Security of the Ministry of Internal

12 Affairs of Republika Srpska. Would you agree with me in my interpretation

13 of this abbreviation?

14 A. I believe that's an accurate interpretation, yes.

15 Q. Why, Mr. Butler, would the Main Staff, the supreme body, give

16 orders to a small MUP unit in Konjevic Polje to secure the communication

17 line?

18 A. I think if you look at this document in its entirety, not only who

19 it was sent to and, again, first when you look at the header information,

20 the first individuals that it was sent to, the primary customer, so to

21 speak, was the Drina Corps command. And, again, looking at it if you look

22 at -- as you've noted on the second page, if you look in the second

23 paragraph below the yellow highlighted one, it also discusses the duty of

24 the brigade command to inform the Department of Public Safety and

25 Security.

Page 9202

1 I believe, again, when you look at this in its entirety, this is

2 consistent with the fact that, you know, my belief as to my analysis and I

3 believe as the Prosecution's issue as well is that, during this period,

4 that the MUP forces are operating under army command and control. And

5 this document, particularly the second period, reflects that. The army

6 was the first person on the addressee list and, in this case, given the

7 fact that the MUP are the last people down the line, certainly the army

8 formations were the first intended recipients of it, specifically, in this

9 case, General Krstic and Lieutenant Colonel Popovic.

10 Q. Mr. Butler, it is the submission of the Defence that the Konjevic

11 Polje-Bratunac road was controlled by the MUP either through the special

12 brigade or other MUP units. Can this document be said to fit into the

13 submission of the Defence as well?

14 A. Looking at the first and the second paragraphs of page 2 and using

15 those as the basis, I would say that it doesn't. And the reason that I

16 don't believe it does is the fact that the brigade commands are being told

17 through their organs of intelligence affairs to propose to the commanders

18 the measures to undertake to prevent the illegal breakthrough of the

19 Muslims. Putting paragraphs 1 and 2 on page 2 together, I don't believe

20 it supports that contention. Now, again, if you look at paragraph 1 in

21 isolation, it would support that contention.

22 Q. Mr. Butler, can it be seen from this document that the MUP was

23 subordinated to the Drina Corps?

24 A. I do not believe that this document specifically states that the

25 MUP is subordinate to the Drina Corps. However, I believe that you can

Page 9203

1 get a feel for that, and that's a weak word, but you can get a feel for

2 that by looking at paragraph 3 where it specifically discusses the issue

3 that the Bratunac, Zvornik and Milici Brigades, in collaboration with the

4 local departments of public security in their areas of responsibility are

5 to organise the traffic through some of the key routes that they knew that

6 the column would be crossing over. So while it does not specifically

7 state that, I believe that looking at that third paragraph, you could get

8 an inclination of that.

9 Q. Mr. Butler, your knowledge of the word "collaboration" or

10 "cooperation," does that indicate subordination or does cooperation mean

11 something else, the meaning attributed to the word by the Prosecution when

12 interpreting certain other documents?

13 A. The word, and this is kind of fuzzy because it's, again, the

14 translation, and that's where it gets unclear. The phrase it's normally

15 done is "cooperation." I'm assuming that in this particular translation,

16 "collaboration" and "cooperation" are the same word for the purpose of

17 the translation. In this particular case what I look at this is looking

18 at it in the form of the brigades to cooperate and, in the sense of the

19 JNA doctrine, cooperation does not specifically mean command.

20 Q. Mr. Butler, does the Prosecution possess any document except for

21 the Krivaja 95 plan from which it would be possible to find in writing

22 which would -- or rather which would describe the relationship of the

23 Drina Corps command over MUP units and specifically over MUP units

24 stationed along the Konjevic Polje-Bratunac communication line?

25 A. There is a 15 July -- I believe it's 15 or 16 July 1995 daily

Page 9204

1 combat report from the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade where the brigade

2 commander sends a report up to the Drina Corps where he specifically talks

3 about the fact that the MUP forces there have withdrawn, and he's not sure

4 by whose order that they've left, but because of that, now his forces have

5 got to go cover that line.

6 That is the only other document other than Krivaja 95 Op plan

7 which discusses that issue of the MUP and the army and the subordination

8 with the Drina Corps.

9 Q. Mr. Butler, you will agree with me that that order is dated the

10 16th of July. I looked at it yesterday. It is a regular combat report of

11 the Bratunac Brigade, dated the 16th of July.

12 To be quite clear, in the period of the 11th, 12th, and 13th of

13 July when the certain events occurred along the route Konjevic

14 Polje-Bratunac, is there any single document specifying the command

15 relationship of the Drina Corps over the MUP, either as special Brigades

16 or any MUP units?

17 A. During that period, there is not a physical document, no, sir.

18 Q. Mr. Butler, even if you were to consider the first paragraph only

19 of this document, which shows that the Main Staff is in a certain sense

20 setting assignments to the MUP, be it a small unit as you allege or the

21 entire MUP unit as submitted by the Defence ...

22 A. I'm sorry, is that a question, sir? It kind of hung off on the

23 transcriber.

24 Q. Allow me to repeat it, Mr. Butler.

25 If we look at the first paragraph on page 2 of Exhibit D165, even

Page 9205

1 if we were to view it in isolation as you are suggesting, is that the only

2 evidence of the fact that the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska

3 is allegedly controlling the MUP, or that the Main Staff is in a certain

4 sense issuing assignments to MUP units or is familiar with the assignments

5 of MUP units?

6 A. I would agree with the latter interpretation you gave it, that is,

7 familiar with the assignments of the MUP units, by virtue of the fact that

8 in the first paragraph it notes that, "We have informed the organs of the

9 Ministry of the Interior Affairs," and it specifies they're not -- that

10 they're not tasking them, "them" being the Main Staff is not tasking

11 them. And again, considering this is coming from the intelligence

12 department and not from operations, it would be inappropriate for them to

13 be tasking as such. So I would agree with your second interpretation,

14 that they're certainly aware of the MUP presence in Konjevic Polje.

15 Q. Mr. Butler, who did the MUP report to about its activities in

16 Konjevic Polje and along the Konjevic Polje-Bratunac route?

17 A. Based on the recent series of interviews, and again I won't go

18 into detail on that, the individuals in question continue to essentially

19 indicate that they reported up through their MUP channels to at least as

20 far as Colonel Borovcanin, who we've identified in previous testimony as

21 the commander of the MUP forces on the ground in that area.

22 The next link over would be Colonel Borovcanin reporting to the

23 local army commands, and in that particular case, we do not have any

24 physical evidence that establishes that linkage other than their proximity

25 presence.

Page 9206

1 Q. Mr. Butler, do you have any evidence to show the opposite, that

2 is, that the command of the Drina Corps was not familiar with the

3 activities of MUP units along the Konjevic-Bratunac communication line?

4 A. No, sir. Most of the information I have indicates that the Drina

5 Corps units had an awareness, certainly in the intercepts and certainly in

6 other documents, that they were aware of the activities of the MUP all

7 through that period. Intercepts of the 12th and of the 13th and some on

8 the 14th are pretty clear that they're currently coordinating their

9 activities.

10 Q. Mr. Butler, who was the commander of the Drina Corps on the 13th

11 of July in the afternoon hours?

12 A. It is my contention, based on the signed order from General Krstic

13 as the commander of the Drina Corps, that I believe the order of time is

14 sometime between 1730 and 2000 hours, and again, my memory has slipped on

15 that one but, based on that signed order, I believe that General Krstic

16 was the commander of the Drina Corps in that period.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Sorry. Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is getting beyond the scope into some issues

19 that if Mr. Butler -- if they wish to reopen and they wish to go into this

20 with Mr. Butler, if at least he could have the documents present to help

21 refresh his recollection. But I -- this is -- I would object to any

22 further -- going further afield.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I was going to raise that

24 particular issue. I think that Mr. Butler discussed this issue at length,

25 as you know, and to go back to it, perhaps he should have the document in

Page 9207

1 front of him.

2 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is just an

3 introductory question to the question that comes next, but to refresh

4 Mr. Butler's memory, I should like to ask the registry to provide him with

5 document 525, Prosecution Exhibit 525.

6 Q. It is an interview carried out on the 13th of July at 1829 hours

7 -- or rather, a conversation, I'm sorry, between Zile and an X, and

8 during your examination-in-chief, during the Prosecution case, you

9 identified one of these two participants in the conversation as General

10 Zivanovic.

11 In the course of this conversation, mention is made, a list --

12 made of a list of prisoners of war -- no, I'm sorry, a list of potential

13 war criminals which General Zivanovic is requesting from the other

14 participant in the conversation. Is that right?

15 A. Let me just take a minute to read this again, please. Okay, your

16 question again, sir?

17 Q. In this conversation, reference is made to a list of suspected war

18 criminals which, as far as I can remember, General Zivanovic is requesting

19 to be given to him for the purposes of an investigation. Am I right?

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I object to counsel's conclusion. I think that

22 this clearly is not established, who this is, conclusively.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. McCloskey, but I think

24 that we have Mr. Richard Butler here who will answer that question.

25 Perhaps it would be a good idea to show the document on the ELMO,

Page 9208

1 please, so that we can see it.

2 Very well. Please proceed, Mr. Visnjic.

3 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my question is on the

4 monitor, on the LiveNote.

5 Q. So am I right, Mr. Butler?

6 A. "Zile" is a nickname that we associate with General Zivanovic,

7 yes, sir. Let me just go back to the transcript here and make sure

8 there's nothing of part of the question that I missed. And yes, as part

9 of that, the individual Zile is requesting a list of war criminals.

10 Q. Mr. Butler, should we hypothetically assume that this conversation

11 is authentic, that a participant in the conversation is General Zivanovic,

12 that MUP units are under the command of the Drina Corps, would it be

13 possible that at 1820 [as interpreted], a time which the Prosecution

14 contends - I'm sorry, it should be 1829 for the LiveNote, not 1820 - a

15 time when, according to the contention of the Prosecution, the killings in

16 Jadar, in Cerska, had already occurred, and most probably also the

17 killings began or underway -- or are underway at Kravica, how would it be

18 possible for General Zivanovic, the commander of the Drina Corps, not to

19 know about it?

20 A. Looking through the LiveNote transcript, there are two issues in

21 that question, and I think maybe the best way for me to answer it is to go

22 over each of them, the first one being General Zivanovic is the commander.

23 And again, as I've indicated, I don't believe by this period of time he is

24 the commander of the Drina Corps based on the other documents. And

25 certainly this intercept is an indicator that he may be. There are other

Page 9209

1 intercepts that have him in discussions with Colonel Vukotic later that

2 evening that I believe on cross-examination you've raised it. Those are

3 indicators that he may well be in command. My view is that he's not in

4 command, that General Krstic is in command of the Drina Corps, based on

5 the written orders. So that's the first part of the question.

6 As for the second issue of the question, how could General

7 Zivanovic not know, given this time frame of what was happening; I don't

8 know the answer to that. I don't know how anyone in the Drina Corps could

9 not have known about what was going on, given the scope and the scale. So

10 it would be my contention that General Zivanovic probably did know at

11 least some components of it, just as members of the Drina Corps all knew

12 some components of it.

13 Q. Mr. Butler --

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Visnjic, I think we need a

15 break. Are you about to finish?

16 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, another five minutes,

17 perhaps.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] All right, then. Please go

19 ahead.

20 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Butler, the first order signed by General Krstic, was it

22 signed at 2030 hours?

23 A. You'll have to give me the order on that one. I just don't recall

24 the exact time.

25 Q. It is Prosecution exhibit ...

Page 9210

1 A. And if I could make it a little easier, perhaps. I believe that

2 the window I used was the last order that was signed by General Zivanovic

3 on the 13th of July, was 1730, and then the order -- I believe you're

4 correct, it is in fact 2030 signed by General Krstic. I believe that

5 that's the window that I use to make the conclusion that between that 1730

6 hours and 2030 hours is when the change of command probably occurred.

7 Q. Within that time period, General Zivanovic is nonetheless

8 conducting a conversation, an active conversation, a kind of conversation

9 that would be expected from a Corps Commander?

10 A. Certainly an active conversation expected of someone who is a

11 General.

12 Q. Mr. Butler, according to the contention of the Prosecution or,

13 rather, the hypothesis of the Prosecution, General Krstic and General

14 Zivanovic were together during that time period; am I right?

15 A. I believe that during that time period, the general body of

16 evidence used by the Prosecution put General Mladic, General Krstic and

17 General Zivanovic together during some portion of that time period and

18 that is, in fact, the change of command. That is the event that occurs at

19 the Vlasenica headquarters on the 13th. So I believe we have all three

20 principals there at that time.

21 Q. Mr. Butler, General Zivanovic, at least that can be concluded from

22 the conversation conducted on -- at 1829 hours, is not aware of the listed

23 and mentioned events Jadar, Cerska and probably Kravica; am I right?

24 A. Those events are not listed in the contents of this conversation,

25 no, sir.

Page 9211

1 Q. Mr. Butler, just one more question. In view of the document you

2 have in front of you, which is Defence Exhibit D165, and the document

3 tendered by the Prosecution as OTP Exhibit 877, could it be concluded that

4 one of the assumptions as to why this unit or detachment of the military

5 police was sent to Konjevic Polje was precisely to regulate traffic, as

6 stated on paragraph 3 on page 2 of Exhibit 165 of the Defence.

7 A. The one part where I have some difficulty in concluding that is

8 the fact that given in Exhibit 877 which is the 12 July combat report and,

9 again, that report was sent -- if I can find my English language

10 translation -- at 1710 hours, and this one from the intelligence director

11 of the Main Staff wasn't sent from 2210. So based on the fact that the

12 Main Staff document comes out many hours after the daily combat report,

13 and the fact that they have received the order prior to putting in the

14 daily combat report at 1710, I'm not sure you can make a direct linkage to

15 that. There are many documents that we have dated the 12th and 13th that

16 have been tendered into evidence which talk about the setting up of

17 checkpoints and everything else, and I think those are probably more tied

18 to 877 than Defence 165 is.

19 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I have

20 no further questions.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Visnjic. We are

22 now going to have a half-hour break.

23 --- Recess taken at 11.08 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 11.45 a.m.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey, will there be any

Page 9212

1 additional questions for this witness --

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just a few.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] -- as regards the issue of Zile

4 Zivanovic. You made an objection and I thought that you would have an

5 opportunity to react if you think it necessary.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. That was one of the

7 issues I just wanted Mr. Butler to review.

8 Re-examined by Mr. McCloskey:

9 Q. In fact, Mr. Butler, could we go to Exhibit 525A. I hope you've

10 still got that in front of you, and if you could make sure the whole thing

11 is on the ELMO. Have you had a chance to carefully read this and review

12 what you had said about it previously?

13 A. Yes, sir, I have.

14 Q. Now, what can you tell us about who is speaking and -- in this

15 conversation?

16 A. In this particular intercept, it's clear that they only have one

17 side of the conversation. And they make it clear that the individual

18 identified as Zile is not audible. So you have this subscriber that's on

19 the other hand of the conversation. You do not have Zile himself.

20 Q. So this line down the page, "Let me explain what's happening, call

21 me in the morning. We'll fucking miss them and they'll get away scot

22 free." In your opinion, is that Zivanovic or Zile?

23 A. No, sir, that's the other subscriber.

24 Q. And do you have any idea who this person is?

25 A. No, sir.

Page 9213

1 Q. Now, if you -- I want to ask you about two intercepts very

2 briefly, and I've shown the Defence which ones we want to talk about

3 there. One is a July 12 intercept. It's Exhibit 364, July 12, tab -- can

4 you tell us the tab?

5 A. It's tab 4, sir.

6 Q. Okay. And can you put that on the ELMO. Now, just again,

7 briefly, what can you tell us about this on the issue of municipal police

8 and who they may be taking orders from?

9 A. In this conversation, again, the subscriber is Obrenovic, and it

10 discusses the fact that, listen, please, I call them -- that Mane will

11 call him, and that the police in Konjevic Polje have been told to do the

12 same as the Engineer Battalion is doing, that he can give orders to them

13 through the commander of the Engineering Battalion. So in this regards,

14 this puts the civilian municipal police receiving their orders through the

15 commander of the army Engineering Battalion at Konjevic Polje. That's the

16 5th Engineering Battalion.

17 Q. And the 5th Engineering Battalion, as we recall, is a Drina Corps

18 asset?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. Now, was Witness S interrogated by people in camouflage uniforms

21 in front of the headquarters and COMS building of the 5th Engineering

22 Battalion on the 13th of July?

23 A. I believe that is his testimony, sir, yes.

24 Q. All right. Now, if we can go to the next intercept that I've

25 asked you to look at, it's the July 13 intercept in the same exhibit, 364,

Page 9214

1 July 13 in the evening, between Krstic and Borovcanin. And what tab is

2 that, Mr. Butler?

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey, could you tell us

4 the number of the document, please.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, this is 364/1, and then it goes by date, July

6 13th, tab --

7 Q. Mr. Butler?

8 A. I don't believe there's a tab number listed on this one, unless

9 it's --

10 Q. It's the grey tab.

11 A. Sixteen.

12 Q. Tab 16. And again, can you just briefly remind us the context of

13 this, who these people are, and how it fits into this issue.

14 A. This is a conversation between the two subscribers, one of them

15 General Krstic, one of them is a Borovcanin who we understand Ljubo

16 Borovcanin was the person in charge of the police activities relative to

17 Potocari and the general area of Srebrenica. And in this conversation,

18 Krstic is calling Borovcanin, asking him where he is at the command post,

19 and essentially, you know, wanting to determine whether or not he has any

20 problems. And again, Borovcanin says he does not. He tells Krstic that

21 he doesn't have any problems.

22 Q. How do you view this militarily? Can you give any indication of

23 the relationship between these two?

24 A. I believe, as I said in my direct testimony pertaining to this

25 one, to me, this is an indication that Borovcanin is functioning under the

Page 9215

1 command and control of General Krstic.

2 Q. All right. Now, let's go back to the Defence Exhibit 165 from

3 Tolimir of the Main Staff to General Krstic, Lieutenant Colonel Popovic,

4 and other units. And I notice in the bottom of the first paragraph the

5 prisoner -- they say, "The prisoner estimates that on 11 July this year

6 within Zulfo's group, about 500 armed Muslims left. Among them were also

7 military-capable unmarried women and children." Do you know why the Main

8 Staff would be interested in military-capable children?

9 A. No, sir, I don't.

10 Q. Can you, after studying this document, provide your opinion as to

11 who would have captured this individual?

12 A. In looking at this document, the -- and I'm sorry, I have to pull

13 it off the screen here. I can't read it from the ELMO.

14 In the very first series of lines of the first paragraph, it

15 discusses that on 12 July at 1800 hours on the road Bratunac-Kravica in

16 the region of the village of Kajici, a member was captured. That village

17 is the headquarters of the 4th Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade which,

18 again, is also the 8th Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade.

19 Given those -- the fact that where he was captured as well as the

20 kind of questions that are being asked of him as to where the Muslim

21 military formations are, my conclusion is that the individual was captured

22 by the army, not by the MUP.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: No further questions.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

25 Mr. McCloskey.

Page 9216

1 Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.

2 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Questioned by the Court:

4 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Mr. Butler.

5 A. Good morning, sir.

6 JUDGE RIAD: I just have one question you may be in a position to

7 give me a satisfactory answer. You're adamant in your conclusion that --

8 you said exactly: "Most information indicate that Drina Corps had an

9 awareness of the activities of the MUP and that they were currently

10 coordinating their activities together, so let us consider that the bottom

11 line was that they were aware, the Drina Corps was aware of the MUP

12 activity."

13 Now, how far would the Drina Corps command be entitled to use a

14 veto, to use a modern word, to use a veto against activities of the MUP,

15 when -- if they are aware of what they are doing? Could they tell them,

16 "No, don't do that," granting this is the bottom line?

17 A. Yes, sir, they should have been able to do that. The legislation

18 on when the MUP comes under army command is fairly clear on the fact that

19 once MUP units are subordinated to the army, that they fall under the

20 command of the brigade and corps commanders in that zone. The only

21 specific limitations on the army commander resolves around not using the

22 MUP outside of the agreed framework of what they were sent to do and the

23 fact that the army commander cannot replace the MUP commander of that

24 unit. It still has to remain under MUP actual command.

25 Other than that, and given the fact that the army would command

Page 9217

1 those units within the zone, certainly if the MUP function -- or the MUP

2 formation were doing something outside of what the army deemed was

3 necessary, appropriate, or part of the plan, the army certainly could have

4 made their views known that this activity had to stop, and enforce that,

5 yes, sir.

6 JUDGE RIAD: So in the last analysis, the army of the Drina Corps

7 had to okay the activity of the MUP, to give -- if the consent is not

8 given, they cannot act, and they can't tell them no?

9 A. For those specific functions that they were put under army

10 control. For other civilian policing type of functions, it's a different

11 story, but when they're specifically put under the army control, they have

12 that veto, as you use, yes, sir.

13 JUDGE RIAD: And what would you call policing functions?

14 A. The normal municipal police functions: crime enforcement, local

15 security of the population in Milici area and those types of areas. Their

16 traditional police functions. When they're mobilised, there's a special

17 unit, so to speak, and placed under army command. For example, their use

18 along the roads, that's not a traditional police function. In that case,

19 they're being used as a police formation under army command, and in those

20 functions, they do that. But for normal police functions, I would say

21 that, yeah, the army doesn't necessarily have a voice in that.

22 JUDGE RIAD: And the police functions would be the normal police

23 functions --

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 JUDGE RIAD: -- which have --

Page 9218

1 A. Which have nothing to do with military operations.

2 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge

4 Riad.

5 Madam Judge Wald has the floor.

6 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Butler, three questions. One is a little bit

7 more specific version of the area you were talking to Judge Riad about.

8 Even if in your understanding of VRS rules and regulations, et

9 cetera, even if a civilian MUP had been assigned the task of securing a

10 road, would they conceivably have had the authority when capturing people

11 on that road, given the fact that these people we have been told again and

12 again were looked upon as part of the follow-up of the 28th Muslim army,

13 would they -- or can you think of a conceivable source of authority for

14 the MUP having secured the road and captured people on the road to

15 themselves dispose of captured prisoners of war, not handing them over to

16 the army, even if they had been given that -- given the task of securing

17 that road?

18 A. No, ma'am. Most of the information that I had indicates that the

19 army was the primary proponent agency for prisoners of war, again, with a

20 view to collecting the individuals and exchanging them for captured

21 soldiers that the Muslim side or the Croat side had. In that regard, I

22 don't have anything that would indicate that the MUP, of their own, would

23 dispose of prisoners and not turn them over to the army.

24 JUDGE WALD: Would they have had any authority to do so, to your

25 knowledge? Could they have hustled them all off to the local gaol?

Page 9219

1 A. Limited numbers could have been hustled off but at any points in

2 time the gaols, presumably, would have been full. Could they have

3 collected them on their side and not tell anybody? No. And, in fact,

4 there are exhibits that have been tendered which indicate from the army

5 that these prisoners are supposed to be put under custody and taken and

6 held in certain areas.

7 JUDGE WALD: And had they treated them -- we're in supposition

8 now. Had they treated them as civilians captured in what you might say

9 were ordinary police activities, they would have -- would they not have

10 had to go through regular civilian kinds of justice procedures in order to

11 dispose of them legally?

12 A. The only procedure that I'm aware of, and I believe I discussed

13 this a little bit in my direct testimony, where the police are the primary

14 proponent are those individuals who have been identified as potential war

15 criminals in which case they fall under the purview of the police.

16 JUDGE WALD: Okay. I have two very quick questions on one of your

17 main exhibits, 877A, just to put what you've talked about into context.

18 There are two other references in paragraph 2 under command of the Drina

19 Corps which is on page 1 that I just wish you might tell me what you think

20 they were talking about.

21 One is the third little dash down, "All other units have made

22 preparations and intensified vigilance against possible arrival of Turks

23 behind our back." Who are they talking about there? Are they talking

24 about the regular Muslim army? Who are they talking about?

25 A. No, ma'am. In this case they're talking about the column. As

Page 9220

1 indicated in earlier testimony, they started gaining an awareness very

2 early as to this column coming up. They were arrayed against the Muslim

3 forces of 2 Corps on the front line, and they were extremely concerned

4 about the fact that they did not have a whole lot of reserve forces and

5 that this large armed column would literally be approaching their

6 positions from the rear.

7 JUDGE WALD: Okay. So that may be read as saying that they have

8 all their units on some kind of -- other units that haven't been given

9 other designations, on vigilance again the column, against the arrival?

10 A. Yes, ma'am.

11 JUDGE WALD: The other one is two dashes down. This one we're now

12 talking about is on the 12th of July, and they said, "We sent to Bratunac,

13 pursuant to your order, eight buses from Drinatrans, two buses from Praga,

14 and four of our trucks." What context do you put that in, this being the

15 12th? Is this part of the original commandeering of buses or does this

16 mean these buses have been deflected from some of their women and children

17 escort over to Bratunac to pick up the men?

18 A. No, ma'am. I believe this is in relation to the original call

19 from the Drina Corps for buses.

20 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam Judge

22 Wald.

23 Mr. Butler, I also have a question for you, but I am somewhat

24 concerned that -- how to put it -- that I will not be able to formulate it

25 very clearly, but you might be able to help me.

Page 9221

1 You have spoken about the document 165. You mentioned the village

2 of Kajici in the first paragraph, and you told us that the Bratunac

3 Brigade was the one that was there. Did I understand you correctly,

4 Mr. Butler?

5 A. Yes, sir. The unit in question is the 4th Battalion of the

6 Bratunac Brigade. Where it gets somewhat confusing is that same unit is

7 also the 8th Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade, and because there was

8 always a manpower shortage in the Bratunac area, what occurred some time

9 in the late 1993 time period was that the 8th Battalion from the Zvornik

10 Brigade was attached to, on a long-term attachment, to the Bratunac

11 Brigade to cover that period -- cover that stretch of the road and around

12 the enclave because they did not have the manpower.

13 So the brigade, the battalion functioned under the command and

14 control of the Bratunac Brigade; however, it was organic to the Zvornik

15 Brigade.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] If we look at the document D165

17 and the Prosecution Exhibit 877, if we look at both these documents

18 together, we see that they both are dated the 12th of July. The document

19 number 877, in the second paragraph, which starts with the words, "Primary

20 tasks for units," we see further down, in the fourth paragraph where we

21 can read, I will read it in English [In English], "to the area of the 8th

22 in Kajici."

23 [Interpretation] Does that give you a new element? Can that be

24 considered as a confirmation for what you have just said? How do you view

25 it?

Page 9222

1 A. I view it as confirming what I've just said, sir, yes.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. So finally I didn't

3 actually have a question, but thank you anyway for helping me understand

4 this issue.

5 We will have no further questions for you, Mr. Butler. Thank you

6 once again for coming here. Let me just wish you a lot of success in your

7 future work. Mr. Usher will show you out of the courtroom.

8 [The witness withdrew]

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey, I think that

10 there are some documents to be tendered into evidence by you and by the

11 Defence as well. Please let us hear you.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. We have the first of all the

13 stipulations, 890, 891, and 892. And then we have 877, 878, the two July

14 12 reports; 879, the map. And Ms. Keith tells me we have also -- there's

15 an old intercept from a while back that Bogicevic/Zivanovic intercept

16 which has not been dealt with, but it may be dealt with on the matters

17 which was for that other subject. So I would offer the six exhibits into

18 evidence.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As regards the intercept

20 Bogicevic/Zivanovic, has it been marked for identification? Does it have

21 a number?

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's 884A and B and we have no objection to that

23 intercept going into evidence.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Visnjic.

25 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence has no

Page 9223

1 objections as regards to documents 890, 891, and 892, the stipulations,

2 that is. 877, 878, and 879, however, the Defence believes that they

3 should be discussed and dealt with together with a number of objections

4 that we have made as regards similar evidence which has been presented by

5 the Prosecution.

6 As for 884A and B, it is a new piece of evidence, that is, the

7 intercept which was mentioned during the testimony of Ms. Frease, the

8 Defence has no objection to that document. However, on the other hand,

9 the Defence would like to tender 160B, A and B, I apologise, with certain

10 conditions. Sorry, I apologise, my mistake, 165A and B.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So, Mr. McCloskey, I don't know

12 whether you wish to reply to the objection which was made by the Defence

13 concerning 877 through 879, and also I don't know whether you wish to

14 state your opinion regarding Defence Exhibit 165.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Regarding 877, 878, and 879, that issue has been

16 fairly fully briefed on paper. You have received our response to their

17 motion to exclude it so I don't think anything more need be said on that

18 unless you have any particular questions.

19 As for the new Defence document, D165A, we would like to have a

20 chance to get an official translation of that. We also would like to hear

21 where it came from. Some kind of foundation, I think we have a foundation

22 witness, perhaps that witness can help us, but just some sort of

23 indication that it has some indicia of reliability.

24 JUDGE WALD: Mr. McCloskey, we've been deluged with paper of late,

25 so I'm sure it's covered some place in your paper, but remind me, on the

Page 9224

1 877 to 879, July 12th intercepts, you've told us or Mr. Butler has told us

2 that, well, just going through the first time, they were there but he

3 didn't realise their significance or that sort of thing.

4 Are you now tying those to something very specific in the Defence

5 case or is it more of a general argument? I know you've told us on paper

6 but I honestly --

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, the -- they are extremely specific.

8 JUDGE WALD: That was the questioning on the cross-examination of

9 General Krstic or it was Judges' question. It was my question. I've been

10 trying to get you to say that, Mr. McCloskey, but I wanted to make sure.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: We quoted the exchange between you and General

12 Krstic in our papers.

13 JUDGE WALD: I thought, but I needed to be reassured that was

14 right.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: He was very clear that he did not have any

16 information about prisoners being taken in the 12-17 time frame in

17 response to your specific questions and that is what we -- when we found

18 these documents, we realised they were of importance and so we wanted to

19 bring them into the rebuttal case, and that's what they are for.

20 The first document is very specific to your question. The second

21 document is -- provides the identity of one of the units of the VRS that

22 was doing the -- was in that area that may have been involved in

23 prisoners, and also additionally rebuts the Defence claim that the Drina

24 Corps was not in that area involved in this process. That is more of a

25 general rebutting on the second one, but it -- so it provides context to

Page 9225

1 the first document and is a general rebuttal also. So I don't have

2 anything else to add.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In view of the reservations made

4 by Mr. McCloskey, that is the official translation of the document, source

5 of authenticity, is there anything that you wish to add, Mr. Visnjic?

6 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as regards the

7 official translation, of course we agree that the Prosecution be given

8 some additional time while waiting for the official translation of the

9 document. As regards the source of the document, I think I have two

10 options. I can inform you about the source of the document now, or during

11 the break I can inform the Prosecution about the source of the document

12 and if they agree with the document, maybe they will withdraw the

13 objection.

14 So we have two possibilities. It's up to my learned colleague

15 Mr. McCloskey to decide, and I will do as he sees it fit.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey, in response to

17 what Mr. Visnjic has just told us concerning the authenticity of the

18 document?

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think if we can speak during the break, we can

20 probably resolve that issue.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. We decide to admit

22 into evidence exhibits number 890, 891 and 892, that is, the stipulations

23 of the parties. As regards the document 884A and B and documents 877, 78,

24 and 79, will be discussed together with other documents that the Chamber

25 needs to rule upon. And the document 165 will perhaps have to wait until

Page 9226

1 the close of the day today so that we can make a ruling in respect of that

2 document as well.

3 So you have heard the ruling of the Chamber regarding your

4 documents, and now I think that we can now proceed with the rejoinder of

5 the Defence in this case.

6 Mr. Petrusic, are you in a position to start?

7 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

8 morning, counsel.

9 The Defence is ready to proceed with this phase of the

10 proceedings. We have a witness waiting, and in view of that, I should

11 like to propose that we move into private session briefly because the

12 witness will be requesting protective measures. We have discussed the

13 issue with the counsel from the Prosecution, and they agree as regards the

14 protective measures, that is, the pseudonym and image distortion of the

15 witness.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let us move into private session

17 so that we can hear about the reasons for this application for protective

18 measures.

19 [Private session]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 9227













13 Page 9227 redacted private session













Page 9228













13 Page 9228 redacted private session













Page 9229

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [Open session]

15 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. DG, were you a member of the army of Republika Srpska, and if

17 so, during which period?

18 A. I was a member from the 7th of July, 1993, to 1995. I'm not sure

19 of the exact date.

20 Q. During the war on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, you were a

21 regular soldier doing your regular military service, were you not?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What training did you have?

24 A. I was an encrypter, radio telegraphy, signalsman.

25 Q. In the period, that is to say, at the beginning of July 1995 up

Page 9230

1 until -- or rather, throughout July, were you within the composition of

2 the Drina Corps?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. During that time, did you perform the duties for which you were

5 trained?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. May I just ask you to make pauses between my question and your

8 answer. We, of course, speak the same language, but what we say has to be

9 interpreted, so let us try to make greater pauses between question and

10 answer to facilitate the work of the interpreters. Thank you.

11 Witness DG, can you explain to us, please, briefly what your work

12 consisted of, that is to say, your professional training and your work as

13 an encrypter and teleprinter operator.

14 A. We would receive telegrams, encrypt them, and decode them.

15 Q. Would you explain to us the technique you used, how were telegrams

16 received, how you decoded them, and your role in that work.

17 A. A telegram would come from the operative centre to the office of

18 the encrypter. It was placed at a small aperture that existed in the

19 office, and the encrypter would take over the telegram and process it on

20 the teleprinter. After that, he would encode this on a special machine, a

21 machine -- an encryption machine, and once the message has been encrypted,

22 he would hand it over to the teleprinter operator and he would dispatch it

23 further to the addressee where the telegram was intended to go.

24 Q. You're now talking about the premises you worked in, the office

25 you worked in. Now, I am interested in knowing whether you can do the

Page 9231

1 same kind of work in -- on the terrain, in the field, where you don't have

2 your office, and if so, how you go about your business in the field, on

3 location, as it were.

4 A. Yes, I can do my work in the field, but you have to have a special

5 vehicle with all the devices in it which is supplied with the antenna in

6 order to be able to establish communication with the station in question.

7 Q. From the 5th of July up until the 11th of July, were you at the

8 forward command post of Pribicevac, doing the work you have just described

9 to us, that is to say, working as an encrypter and teleprinter operator?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You performed your work in the vehicle that you have just

12 described to us; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When did you leave the forward command post of Pribicevac?

15 A. We left Pribicevac when the army entered Srebrenica. I don't

16 remember the exact date, but I do know that when the army passed the

17 centre of town and went further on, we received orders from Major

18 Jevdjevic, we packed up our things and went towards Srebrenica.

19 Q. Can you tell us what time of the day it was?

20 A. It was between 6.30 and 7.30.

21 Q. Let me remind you, Witness DG, the event that you're talking

22 about, the entry of the army into Srebrenica, and what among the parties

23 in the trial is not contested is the date, the 11th of July.

24 Yes, when you spoke about the time of day, 6.30 -- between 6.30

25 and 7.30, you mean the afternoon, p.m.?

Page 9232

1 A. Yes, p.m.

2 Q. Could you describe briefly for us the route you took and what your

3 destination was.

4 A. From Pribicevac, that's when we left Pribicevac at that time, as I

5 say, between 6.30 and 7.30 p.m., we came across a downhill section, a

6 steep slope, and the Major ordered us to get out of the vehicle because

7 the slope was so steep that there was the fear that it would turn over,

8 and even the driver had to keep his door open for this eventuality, in

9 case it started turning over, that he could jump out.

10 After that, we reached an asphalt road with sharp bends, and that

11 was our descent towards Srebrenica, down this asphalt road with the sharp

12 bends.

13 Q. And then you continued your journey through Srebrenica towards

14 where?

15 A. We stopped in Srebrenica. We stopped for three, four, five

16 minutes. We got out of the vehicle. Some of my friends wanted to take a

17 television set because we didn't have a television set in our -- in the

18 room we slept in. But the Major ordered us not to do that and he said

19 that nobody was allowed to take anything except the driver who took up a

20 shovel because we needed a shovel for our vehicle. We didn't have a

21 shovel.

22 The Major also took a potted plant. He took that with him, a pot

23 with flowers, and we went on towards Bratunac in the vehicle.

24 Q. Mr. DG, without going into the details, tell us, please, along

25 that road to Bratunac, did you pass Potocari?

Page 9233

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you notice anything characteristic in Potocari?

3 A. When we passed through Srebrenica. When the doors opened, were

4 opened in Potocari, I saw, I noticed a UN base. And before that, when I

5 opened the door, I saw a mass of people. When I opened the door again at

6 one point, on the right-hand side of the road, I saw the UN base and on

7 the left-hand side, I saw the large UN hangars.

8 Beside that, there was a small stone church where the dome of the

9 church had been destroyed.

10 Q. Tell me Mr. DG, when did you arrive in Bratunac?

11 A. It was already dark. I don't know exactly, but we -- it started

12 getting dark as we were passing through Srebrenica, which means that it

13 might have been at around 10.00 p.m., half past 9.00 or 10.00 p.m.

14 Q. How long did you stay in Bratunac?

15 A. I don't know exactly, but it was between half an hour to one

16 hour.

17 Q. And where did your route take you after that?

18 A. The Major ordered that nobody was to leave the vehicle, and when

19 he returned, we went on towards Vlasenica.

20 Q. Tell us, please, at the end of that journey, your destination was

21 Vlasenica, in fact?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When did you arrive in Vlasenica?

24 A. I'm not sure, but it was around 12.00.

25 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] May I now ask the usher to take up

Page 9234

1 Defence Exhibit D80.

2 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. DG, whether this is your signature on this

3 telegram.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Tell me, please, briefly, what does your handwritten note mean at

6 the bottom of this telegram?

7 A. That I received the telegram at 5.35, and that I sent it or handed

8 it over to somebody in the operations centre five minutes later, five

9 minutes after that.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Petrusic, could we see on

11 the ELMO the original, please?

12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The Defence was

13 just going to suggest that.

14 Could you please place the original of the document that the

15 witness has under the ELMO so that his signature can be seen.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me, but I think we have a

17 problem of -- involving the protection of the witness. It's not legible,

18 that's true. Yes, fine.

19 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. So Mr. DG, you received this dispatch at 1715, gave it a number,

21 and then handed it in to the operations centre; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] You can remove the document from

24 the ELMO now.

25 Q. Mr. DG, was it your duty to deliver that telegram?

Page 9235

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So every telegram that you received, it was your duty to deliver

3 it in person?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the usher to assist me

6 with Exhibit OTP 830 and 831.

7 Q. Mr. DG, you have before you Exhibit 831, and on this telegram too

8 do we see your signature?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Would you be kind enough to place

11 the original on the ELMO again, please, page two, please, page two of the

12 original. Now would you hand the telegram back to the witness, please,

13 the original.

14 Q. Mr. DG, on this telegram, it says that it was received on the 11th

15 of July 1995 at 2350 hours. You said that the forward command post at

16 Pribicevac, to which this telegram was addressed, was left by you between

17 1830 and 1930 hours. Can you explain how is it then that this time is

18 indicated on this telegram? Before you answer that question, I should

19 like to show you another exhibit, Prosecution Exhibit 830.

20 Could it be given to the witness, please.

21 With both exhibits in mind, could you please answer my question as

22 to how it is possible for this telegram marked as OTP Exhibit 831 to have

23 been received at 2350 hours?

24 A. Upon arrival at Vlasenica, I -- it is my duty to carry my

25 equipment and documents to the encryption office because they are -- may

Page 9236

1 not be left in the vehicle. When I got there, the teleprinter operator

2 and the encoder informed me that they had a telegram for me which they

3 have to hand to me.

4 I picked up the telegram from the teleprinter operator who handed

5 it to me. I take over responsibility for it from him because it is his

6 responsibility to hand it over to me.

7 Q. Let us clear that up a little. You are saying that this telegram

8 with the time indicated 2350 was received by you in Vlasenica?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So this telegram with the time 2350 on it, that is, OTP Exhibit

11 830A, do you link this telegram to the telegram you have in front of you

12 marked as OTP Exhibit 830 [as interpreted]. Will you please look at the

13 stamp on it on page 2. Do you connect these two telegrams together?

14 A. Yes, they are one and the same telegram. The only thing being is

15 one is outgoing and the other is incoming.

16 Q. So is the outgoing the OTP 830 exhibit?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] My co-counsel tells me that there

19 is an error in line 17, page 59. It should say 831A instead of 830.

20 Q. Mr. DG, could you give me a clear and specific answer, please. We

21 have Exhibit 830 and the stamp on it indicating the time 2250, does that

22 mean that somebody from Vlasenica, the encoder or the teleprinter operator

23 received this telegram from his command?

24 A. Yes, but he received it, the encoder received it at 2230.

25 Q. And what about the time 2250, what does that mean?

Page 9237

1 A. That means that he needed 20 minutes to process it, encode it, and

2 hand it over to the teleprinter operator who would send it to me.

3 Q. After that time, that is, after 2250, does the teleprinter

4 operator try to deliver it to you?

5 A. Probably, because that is his job.

6 Q. Yes, please go on.

7 A. But because he is unable to get into contact with me then, he put

8 the telegram on the other side of the wall as one that has not been

9 delivered.

10 Q. So the moment you arrived in that room, he handed it over to you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And then you entered this information with the time 2350.

13 A. Yes. After which I took it to the operations centre and handed it

14 to the officer on duty.

15 Q. Mr. DG, are you quite sure that you received this telegram in

16 Vlasenica at 2350 in the way you have described?

17 A. I am.

18 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence has no

19 further questions for this witness, but I would like to briefly draw the

20 attention of the Chamber to a problem which I assume Mr. Harmon will

21 comment on. The problem occurred between the Defence and the Prosecution.

22 In fact, the Defence notified the Prosecution what this witness would be

23 testifying about, and in this notification, it omitted to mention some of

24 the facts that the witness has testified to which was due to shortage of

25 time and discussions that members of the Defence team had between Belgrade

Page 9238

1 and The Hague.

2 Mr. Harmon requested to postpone the cross-examination of this

3 witness until tomorrow, which we fully agree with. I'm just informing

4 Your Honours about it, and I assume that Mr. Harmon will also have

5 something to say about it. But the Defence, as I have said, has finished

6 with this witness.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Harmon.

8 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, Your Honours, I'm at the Chamber's

9 disposal. I reviewed this summary, this factual summary. It is

10 materially different than what the witness has testified to today, and I

11 feel disadvantaged by virtue of that significant set of differences,

12 particularly those found in the second paragraph of the summary.

13 I am at your disposal. My preference would be to cross-examine

14 this witness after I've had some time to reflect on now what is asserted

15 to be an accurate statement of the facts, but I'm at your disposal, Your

16 Honours.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Harmon, we will

19 act as follows: We will postpone the cross-examination of this witness

20 for tomorrow. I hope there are no problems for the Defence -- for the

21 witness, I'm sorry.

22 So now is a good time for our lunch break. There's no point in

23 beginning with another witness now, so we will now have our 50-minute

24 lunch break, and we will come back to continue our work after that.

25 --- Recess taken at 12.56 p.m.

Page 9239

1 --- On resuming at 1.57 p.m.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Petrusic, please

4 proceed.

5 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We have

6 in the courtroom before the Trial Chamber Witness DB, who testified on the

7 6th, 7th, and 8th of November last year.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness DB, we're going to refer

9 to you in that way for reasons well known to you. You have already been

10 here to testify. Let me remind you that we consider that you are still

11 under oath because you took the solemn declaration when you first came to

12 testify, so this is a continuation of that testimony, in fact.

13 Having said that, Mr. Petrusic, please proceed.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Examined by Mr. Petrusic:

17 Q. Witness DB, after the 12th of July 1995, you were at the forward

18 command post of the Drina Corps, the forward command post of Krivace.

19 During the time you spent at that forward command post, did you see

20 Lieutenant Colonel Popovic at all?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Were you aware, did you have any knowledge or did you see Colonel

23 Beara at the forward command post or perhaps in the region where the

24 combat -- where combat took place in the period between the 12th of July

25 and the 2nd of August?

Page 9240

1 A. No.

2 Q. You testified in your examination-in-chief that on the 13th of

3 July 1995 at the forward command post at Krivace, General Krstic arrived,

4 as you said, some time in the morning hours before noon or around noon or

5 in the early afternoon. You said you weren't able to remember correctly.

6 Have I quoted you correctly, Witness?

7 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, it would be helpful to me if

8 Mr. Petrusic, when quoting previous testimony, could direct me to the page

9 in the examination so I can check the examination and the answer.

10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I withdraw the question.

11 Q. Witness DB, do you know when General Krstic arrived at the Krivace

12 forward command post, let me put it that way?

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Petrusic, but there was the

14 general question, the general issue. So please, when you quote somebody's

15 testimony, could you please give us the page of the transcript so that the

16 Prosecution can refer to it.

17 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I accept your

18 proposal and the objections made by the Prosecution and I'll do my best.

19 Q. Witness DB, do you know when General Krstic arrived at the Krivace

20 command post, to repeat my question?

21 A. General Krstic arrived at the Krivace forward command post on the

22 13th of July, but I don't know whether it was exactly before noon or in

23 the afternoon. I don't remember the time exactly but I do know that it

24 was that particular date.

25 Q. From the 13th of July up until the 2nd of August, did General

Page 9241

1 Krstic spend his days at the forward command post of Krivace?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. During that time, did General Krstic tour the units that were

4 engaged in combat operations?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you happen to know where General Krstic spent the night, spent

7 his nights during that time period?

8 A. General Krstic spent the night in the nearby village, a village

9 several kilometres away from the forward command post. He was staying

10 with his wife's family.

11 Q. What was the communication means that General Krstic used during

12 the time he spent at the Krivace forward command post?

13 A. During his stay at the Krivace forward command post, for

14 commanding subordinate units engaged in the Zepa operation, General Krstic

15 used a radio device, the RU 2/2K with encryption protection.

16 Q. Was that the device that he used to communicate with the

17 subordinate units who were engaged in combat at Zepa?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Witness DB, the subordinate commanding officers, how did they

20 address General Krstic, his subordinates, after his arrival at the Krivace

21 forward command post? What was their form of address to him?

22 A. We all addressed him according to the rules and regulations as

23 "General, sir."

24 Q. Did anybody address him as "Commander"?

25 A. No.

Page 9242

1 Q. Witness DB, you were at the Pribicevac forward command post as

2 well, were you not, which was established on the 5th of July and which

3 remained operational until the 11th of July in the afternoon. During that

4 time, during the time that the Pribicevac forward command post was in

5 existence where General Krstic was present as well, who were or who was

6 the driver of General Krstic?

7 A. During that period, General Krstic had several drivers. One of

8 them was his main driver; the other drivers accompanied the main driver.

9 His main driver was a soldier, Dalibor Krstic, Private Dalibor Krstic.

10 Q. That main driver, Dalibor Krstic, was he there from the 11th to --

11 5th to the 11th, through that entire time, was he at the Pribicevac

12 forward command post all the time during that time period?

13 A. As far as I remember, he was there throughout with General Krstic.

14 I base that on the fact, my recollections on the fact that General Krstic

15 in that period of time, because of his leg injury, had two or three times

16 a day to bandage his wound. That is to say, he would have to care for his

17 injured leg, and he was helped in doing that exclusively by his driver,

18 Dalibor Krstic.

19 Q. To the best of your recollection, at the Krivace forward command

20 post, when did the units start arriving and the commanding officers of

21 those units who were to engage in combat at Zepa? When did they start to

22 arrive?

23 A. In the region of the forward command post of Krivace at Zepa,

24 already on the 12th of July, the 5th Podrinje Infantry Brigade had already

25 arrived, and it was commanded by Lieutenant Colonel Furtula. And the

Page 9243

1 other units which took part in the operation at Srebrenica began to arrive

2 in the regions where they were expected to be deployed at Zepa in the

3 afternoon hours and in the early hours of the evening of the 13th of July.

4 Q. At the forward command post -- or let me ask you this: Do you

5 know the commanding officer whose name was Miso Pelemis?

6 A. Yes, I do know him.

7 Q. At the forward command post at Pribicevac between the 5th to the

8 11th, did you happen to see that particular commanding officer?

9 A. I did not see him.

10 Q. Did General Krstic use a vehicle with a radio telephone; that is

11 to say, in the vehicle used by General Krstic, was there a radio telephone

12 installed in the vehicle?

13 A. No. That particular device was a device that the Corps

14 Commander's vehicle had, and I know that as a signalsman myself it was a

15 problem, a great problem for me how I could reach General Krstic while he

16 was resting for the night, because during that period of time he didn't

17 take a signalsman with a mobile device with him, nor was there any other

18 device in his car of that kind.

19 Q. In the night between the 11th and 12th of July after your arrival

20 in Bratunac, did you on that occasion leave a signalsman behind with a

21 device as an escort to General Krstic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. That particular device, who was General Krstic able to communicate

24 with using that particular device?

25 A. It was a mobile device within the network of command to the

Page 9244

1 subordinate units who took part in the operation at Srebrenica. And using

2 that device, he was able to communicate only with those units, only with

3 the units who took part in the Krivaja 95 operation.

4 Q. Witness DB, when did you, yourself, arrive at the Krivace forward

5 command post?

6 A. I arrived at the Krivace forward command post on the 12th of July

7 early in the afternoon, immediately after noon, and I think it was at

8 about 2.00 p.m. or thereabouts.

9 Q. When you arrived at Krivace, how much time did you need to make

10 the device operational, the device which we call the teleprinter?

11 A. Not more than 15 minutes.

12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence has no

13 further questions for this witness. We have completed our examination.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

15 Mr. Petrusic.

16 Mr. Harmon, your witness.

17 MR. HARMON: Thank you very much, Mr. President, Your Honours.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Harmon:

19 Q. Witness DB, good afternoon. I didn't think we'd be seeing each

20 other so soon. Welcome back to The Hague.

21 Witness, the first area you were examined by my colleague, you

22 were asked the question whether you saw Lieutenant Colonel Popovic and

23 Colonel Beara at the forward command post in Krivace, and your answer was

24 that you did not see either one of them at the forward command post in

25 Pribicevac. Did I understand your testimony correctly?

Page 9245

1 A. No, at the forward command post of Krivace.

2 Q. Your testimony is not -- that they weren't in the Zepa area of

3 responsibility from the 12th of July until the 2nd of August, is it?

4 A. As far as I remember, the lawyer, Mr. Petrusic, asked me the

5 following question, he asked whether I had seen them during my stay at the

6 Krivace forward command post and Godjenje forward command post in the area

7 of combat operations during the Zepa operation, and I said no.

8 Q. But your testimony to this Trial Chamber is not that these people

9 weren't in the area where the Zepa operation was taking place, but that

10 you personally didn't see them at the forward command post in Krivace; is

11 that correct?

12 A. I can testify that I did not see them at the forward command post

13 in the Zepa region and that I did not hear that they were anywhere in the

14 combat operation zone Zepa. So neither did I see them personally at the

15 forward command post where I was, nor did I hear from anybody that they

16 were somewhere in the zone where the combat operations were.

17 Q. Now, Witness DB, during your previous examination, you testified

18 that while you were in Zepa, a number of days after the operation started,

19 you went back to your quarters in Vlasenica to the headquarters and you

20 took a shower and a bath. Do you remember that testimony?

21 A. Yes. I returned for one night in the -- I came late at night and

22 left early in the morning to return to the forward command post.

23 Q. Is it possible, Witness DB, that in your absence, Lieutenant

24 Colonel Popovic and/or Colonel Beara could have gone down to the Zepa area

25 and been at the forward command post or within the area of responsibility

Page 9246

1 in Zepa. Is that a possibility?

2 A. Theoretically, that is possible, but I left the forward command

3 post in the evening hours when all activities and combat operations were

4 over for the day and returned in the early hours of the morning the

5 following day. Now, if they were there in that period, I would have known

6 that from my signalsman and I have no information to that effect.

7 Q. Now, in addition to leaving the forward command post to go to take

8 a bath up in Vlasenica, you also left the forward command post in the Zepa

9 area to go visit your parents, didn't you?

10 A. Yes. That was towards the end of July, about the 25th, I would

11 say. That is to say from the 25th to the 30th, and that was one

12 afternoon.

13 MR. HARMON: Where did -- let me go into private session for just

14 a moment, please.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, let us move into private

16 session for a few moments.

17 [Private session]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 9247

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [Open session]

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We're in open session,

10 Mr. Harmon.


12 Q. How long a period of time did you stay at your parents'?

13 A. About two hours.

14 Q. How long did it take you to get to your parents'?

15 A. About 45 minutes, between 45 minutes and one hour.

16 Q. During that visit to your parents, did you stop any other place or

17 did you go directly to your parents and return back to your post directly

18 from your parents' house?

19 A. I think I went straight back to the forward command post.

20 Q. Now, Witness DB, is it possible that, in your absence, Colonel

21 Beara came either to the forward command post or came to the Zepa area

22 where combat operations and negotiations were being conducted?

23 A. Theoretically, that is possible.

24 Q. Does that theoretical possibility also refer to Lieutenant Colonel

25 Popovic either coming to the forward command post or to the Zepa operation

Page 9248

1 area of responsibility?

2 A. Well, probably, but let me state once again, I have no knowledge

3 about that in my absence because my signalsman would certainly have

4 informed me about that, and then I wouldn't have testified the way I did,

5 the way I am testifying, if that had been the case.

6 Q. Now, let's focus on your duties while you were at the forward

7 command post, Witness DB. In fact, you were supposed to stay in and

8 around the immediate area of the communications vehicle; is that correct?

9 A. That was my basic task.

10 Q. And in fact, you weren't supposed to leave that area in and around

11 the communications centre of the forward command post, were you?

12 A. If I went, I went with the permission of my superior.

13 Q. How many times during the Zepa operation, Witness DB, did you

14 leave the forward command post area of the communications vehicle? Recall

15 as best you can. You've already described two events: taking a bath in

16 Vlasenica, visiting your parents. How many other times did you leave the

17 immediate area of the forward command post during the whole Zepa

18 operation?

19 A. According to my recollections, those were the only two times that

20 I left for some considerable length of time. For the most part, I was --

21 that is to say, for the rest of the time I was within the region of the

22 forward command post.

23 Q. Now, General Krstic left the area of the forward command post on a

24 number of occasions, didn't he?

25 A. Yes. General Krstic, according to my knowledge, would go from

Page 9249

1 time to time to the nearest units to see to the -- to directing the combat

2 operations and to gain a personal insight into the problems that occurred

3 on the front itself.

4 Q. And you didn't accompany him when he went on those journeys from

5 the forward command post, did you?

6 A. No, I didn't, but a signalsman, a soldier, would always go with

7 him with a mobile device.

8 Q. And you don't know who he met when he was away from the forward

9 command post, do you?

10 A. I don't know. My information is that he went to the commanding

11 officers immediately subordinate in the area of the responsibility, and he

12 would call me many times and tell me to convey a request of some kind with

13 respect to more ammunition or some other materiel or logistics on another

14 line.

15 Q. Witness, I am going to read you some testimony of a witness who

16 testified in open session with a pseudonym, referring to Witness DC.

17 MR. HARMON: And perhaps for the sake of this witness I could

18 identify DC in private session so he knows who DC is. I think it's

19 appropriate, given his testimony.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, that would be a good idea.

21 Let us move into private session for a few moments.

22 [Private session]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 9250

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [Open session]


12 Q. Now, Witness DB, I'm going to read you the testimony of Witness

13 DC. This was open session testimony.

14 MR. HARMON: And counsel, for your convenience, I'm referring to

15 page 7450, lines 4 through 12.

16 Q. This was a question put to Witness DC by my colleague,

17 Mr. Petrusic.

18 Tell us, please, among the command staff of your Superior

19 Command, did you see any of them at Zepa?

20 A. I would see General Krstic most often. I also saw General

21 Ratko Mladic. I saw some other senior officers from the Main

22 Staff, as it was called then. Do I need to enumerate the

23 names?

24 MR. PETRUSIC: Yes, please, tell us who you saw.

25 A. I saw Colonel Beara, Tolimir, officers from the Drina

Page 9251

1 Corps who were with General Krstic, Colonel Vicic.

2 Now, witness, I'm going to read you the testimony in open session that is

3 in cross-examination. This is at page 7493, starting at line 2 and going

4 to line 18. This was a question that I asked:

5 Q. Did you see Colonel Popovic in Srebrenica on the 11th of

6 July?

7 A. I can't really say. I saw him somewhere. I did see him

8 somewhere, whether it was Srebrenica or Zepa.

9 Q. Okay. Let's move on a little bit in your testimony and

10 ask you, you testified on direct examination about who you saw

11 in Zepa, and in response to my colleague's question, you said

12 you saw both General Krstic, General Mladic, and the Main

13 Staff officers, including General Tolimir, Beara, and others?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Where did you see them in Zepa? Where was it that you saw

18 them?

19 A. I saw them at the forward command post of Krivace.

20 Q. Approximately when did you see Colonel Beara at the

21 forward command post in Krivace?

22 A. In the course of the operation, that was for sure, but I

23 saw him several times. I think Beara or Tolimir, that they

24 were negotiating with the Muslims. I don't know them very

25 well, but I just saw them there.

Page 9252

1 Now, let me go on to the next page. This was a re-examination question by

2 my colleague Mr. Petrusic of the same witness, and this was in open

3 session. It's on page 7503, lines 1 through 11.

4 Witness DC, we heard from you today for the first time, and

5 that is the first time I hear of it, too, that in the area of

6 Zepa for a certain time, Colonel Beara was also present. Do

7 you know what he was doing there? Do you have any knowledge

8 about that?

9 A. He was present. I think he was involved in the

10 negotiations, and he was also chief of security.

11 I won't read the rest of the answer. I stopped at line 6.

12 Now, let me turn to the last set of questions on this topic,

13 Witness DB. This is found at page 7513, lines 17 through 25. Judge Wald

14 asked Witness DC in open session:

15 Witness DC, I have only two questions. Do you remember

16 the date or approximately the time that Beara was in Zepa? I

17 know you were there sometime from the 13th of July till the

18 2nd of August, I think. Can you place the time that he was

19 there within that framework?

20 A. Within that framework, the 13th, 14th, I didn't see him,

21 but I think on the 15th onwards.

22 JUDGE WALD: So you saw him several times from the 15th on

23 when he was involved in negotiations?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Now, Witness DB, do you have any reason to believe that Witness DC

Page 9253

1 was not telling the truth before this Trial Chamber?

2 A. Witness DC was one of the officers in one [redacted]

3 [redacted], and during that time period, [redacted]

4 [redacted]. That brigade had an axis of attack to the

5 right, on the right flank. The forward command post of the Drina Corps

6 was roughly in the middle, and to the far right along the axis of attack

7 of other units and to the rear, as I learnt later, was the place where the

8 negotiations were conducted with the Muslim forces from Zepa.

9 So I cannot understand how Witness DC could have, as an officer

10 who didn't have an important role, how [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]. And the distance between them is 15 kilometres over

13 mountainous terrain, and to see Colonel Beara who was at the

14 negotiations.

15 All I know is that in the forward command posts of Krivace and

16 Godjenje and later Lovac too, two days later, that no negotiations were

17 conducted at those forward command posts nor anywhere near those forward

18 command posts. I learnt later on that those negotiations were conducted

19 along the communication line between Zepa and Rogatica on the right flank,

20 and this was at least 10 or 15 kilometres away from the forward command

21 post. And if those persons were there, I wasn't there, so I can't tell,

22 but I'm quite certain that where the negotiations were being held, Witness

23 DC could not have been present because, at the time, [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted].

Page 9254

1 Q. So Witness DB, [redacted]

2 [redacted]?

3 A. I can't say -- I can't dispute [redacted] testimony. All I can do is

4 maintain and stand behind my own testimony and everything else that I have

5 just said. And my dilemma is -- the question is how [redacted]

6 [redacted] away from the axis

7 of attack of [redacted] unit.

8 Q. You also said [redacted]. Did

9 you see [redacted] there?

10 A. I didn't see [redacted] at the forward command post of the Drina Corps

11 at Krivace. [redacted] could have been at the forward command post of [redacted]

12 own brigade, which was close by, maybe about a kilometre or a kilometre and a

13 half away from the village of Godjenje where we had a second forward

14 command post.

15 Q. Witness DB, did you know that General Tolimir was in the area of

16 the Zepa operations?

17 A. I think he was in the Zepa operation area and that he was at the

18 location where the negotiations were going on.

19 Q. Did you see him?

20 A. No, I didn't see him. I saw him on some photographs.

21 Q. Now, was Miso Pelemis, who you've testified about, who you say you

22 knew, was he in the Zepa area of responsibility?

23 A. No. I think that he wasn't at all in the Zepa area, neither he or

24 his units.

25 MR. HARMON: Now, can I have the witness please shown OTP Exhibit

Page 9255

1 881, please. If that could be distributed to counsel and to the Chamber.

2 Q. Witness, take a moment to familiarise yourself with this article,

3 if you would, please. There's a B/C/S version that's attached. Are you

4 familiar, Witness DB, with the publication Drinski?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Does this appear to be an article from the Drinski magazine?

7 A. That is what it appears to be.

8 Q. What is the Drinski magazine, would you tell the Judges, please?

9 A. Do I need to read the whole article? I haven't had time to read

10 it all.

11 Q. No. I'm going to direct your attention to a couple items in this

12 article. Could you tell the Judges what the Drinski magazine is.

13 A. Drinski was a wartime magazine of the Zvornik Brigade which, in

14 its editorial policies and programmes, to a good extent ignored the

15 wartime reality of the Drina Corps.

16 Q. Now, Witness, why don't you finish reading the article. It's not

17 a very long article and if you -- and when you've finished that, just let

18 me know and I'm going to ask you some questions about this article.

19 A. That was what I was asking you if I could do. Do I need to read

20 the article on the second page?

21 Q. Well, I want you to be comfortable with the contents of this

22 article.

23 MR. HARMON: While the witness is reading that, if the usher could

24 please prepare OTP Exhibit 28, Tab 15, please. If not, I have a copy that

25 I could submit to the witness if it's not readily available. We can make

Page 9256

1 my copy available to the witness when he's finished reading the article,

2 that's fine.

3 Madam Registrar, it's in this OTP 28, and the exhibit I'm

4 specifically looking for is 28/17. 28/17 is on the back of the exhibit,

5 but the grey tab number is 15.

6 Q. Have you finished reading that article, Witness?

7 A. Yes, and I apologise. It was rather difficult because the copy

8 machine didn't copy the beginning of each word properly and clearly, so I

9 had to use my common sense to guess what the words actually are.

10 Q. I understand. And it's my responsibility for furnishing you with

11 a better copy. I apologise for that.

12 MR. HARMON: Now, could this exhibit be placed on the ELMO,

13 Mr. Usher? This is a copy of 28/17, which is found in Prosecutor's

14 Exhibit 28. If you place that on the ELMO.

15 Q. Witness, this is an exhibit. It has been identified, and the

16 people in this exhibit have been identified by previous witnesses, and

17 this is a still image from a video that is also in evidence.

18 MR. HARMON: The video is, for Your Honours' -- for the record,

19 Prosecutor's Exhibit 145 bis.

20 Q. Now, do you recognise the man on the far right-hand side of that

21 particular still image?

22 A. The picture is not clear and I'm not quite sure, but judging by

23 the profile, it could be Miso Pelemis, Lieutenant Miso Pelemis.

24 MR. HARMON: Now, leaving that exhibit right where it is,

25 Mr. Usher, could you take the article that is in front of the witness and

Page 9257

1 would you put the photograph, the top photograph next to the exhibit that

2 is currently on the ELMO. If you would just kindly move the photograph of

3 the man on the right a little to the left. Okay.

4 Now, Witness -- no, a little bit more to the left, Mr. Usher,

5 please. Now, would you move the black and white photograph closer to the

6 image of the man in 28. Thank you very much.

7 Q. Now, Witness, do you see in the top picture of Prosecutor's

8 Exhibit 881 the third man from the left, wearing a dark, darker-coloured

9 outfit, who has a profile. Do you see that man I'm referring to?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you identify that man?

12 A. You probably would like me to say that they are one and the same

13 person, but really, the photographs are so poor in quality that I can't

14 say that, though the profiles are similar, I must say.

15 Q. Let me pass to you, Witness DB, the original version of this

16 magazine, and I'm going to ask you to study the same image, and I want

17 your opinion on whether the individual, the two individuals are the same.

18 MR. HARMON: Show it to the witness, please.

19 A. This picture is not much better, either. I must admit that these

20 two profiles do look alike at first glance, but I wouldn't have the

21 courage to ascertain that they were one and the same person with any

22 certainty.

23 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, and for counsels' benefit, I have the

24 original magazine, and if Your Honours would like to inspect it or counsel

25 would like to inspect it, I can circulate that as well.

Page 9258

1 Q. In the meantime, Witness DB, let me move on just a little bit, and

2 Witness --

3 MR. HARMON: Would you pass that up to the Judges so they can look

4 at it.

5 Q. Witness DB, while we're on the topic of Miso Pelemis, you said you

6 didn't see him at the forward command post in Pribicevac, but in fact,

7 General Krstic on occasion could order Miso Pelemis to perform certain

8 functions and tasks, isn't that correct?

9 A. I know - and that is what I testified the last time, I gave this

10 same statement to the investigator, your investigator in April last year -

11 I know that a unit of which Lieutenant Pelemis was the commander appeared

12 somewhere in the area of combat operations over Srebrenica several days

13 after those operations had started because as I was passing by not far

14 from the Pribicevac forward command post, I saw their signalsman. And

15 that prompted me, because I knew that they were not in the communications

16 plan, so I was thinking forward as to how I would establish communications

17 with them if they needed to hear a command from General Krstic, because we

18 had a protected command line to subordinate units and that was the only

19 line or connection that I recognised.

20 So I sought to achieve that all units under the command of General

21 Krstic should have a device, a coded device to be within the command

22 network. However, their signalsman explained to me that they didn't need

23 that device, and he continued along his way towards Srebrenica, probably

24 where his unit was.

25 In view of the fact that this was a diversionary detachment of the

Page 9259

1 Main Staff which is not included in the plan for active combat activities

2 but by purpose have special assignments, I came to the conclusion that

3 this unit, which was very small in size and number, had some kind of a

4 special assignment that was not a combat assignment. And until the end of

5 that operation, we had no communication with them, nor do I have any

6 knowledge that General Krstic had in any other way commanded that unit.

7 Q. Well, General Krstic knew Miso Pelemis, didn't he?

8 A. I assume he did.

9 Q. Just so the record is perfectly clear, Prosecution Exhibit 881,

10 which is the article that you took a look at, is an article from Drinski

11 magazine with a date of -- that the author gives to the text of the 24th

12 of July 1995. This article -- take it, if you'd like to take a look at

13 the original. This article deals with Zepa, doesn't it, and the operation

14 in Zepa?

15 A. Yes. The photograph could be from a much earlier period, from

16 another period. Because in the footnote, it says Officer Svetozar Andric

17 with associates. It doesn't indicate that it is in the operation for Zepa

18 or anything like that.

19 Secondly, it seems to me that Colonel Svetozar Andric had a black

20 T-shirt on him, and here he is wearing a regular uniform. So this

21 photograph may not have been taken from Zepa. It may have been taken out

22 of the archives by the journalist as journalists are wont to do.

23 Q. And Svetozar Andric participated in the Zepa operation, didn't he?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Last point of interest in this particular article is on the last

Page 9260

1 page of this article in the last paragraph, full paragraph. It identifies

2 General Krstic as the commander of the Drina Corps, doesn't it?

3 A. Yes, that is what the journalist wrote here.

4 Q. All right. Now, let's move on to again staying with the topic of

5 Miso Pelemis.

6 If the witness could please be shown Prosecution Exhibit 882.

7 Witness, if you would turn over to the B/C/S version and review

8 that. This, for your information, was an intercepted radio communication

9 which has been dated the 25th of June 1995. Do you see the B/C/S version

10 and could you read that, please?

11 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, could you put the English version on the

12 ELMO, please.

13 Q. Have you had a chance to review that intercepted communication,

14 Witness DB?

15 A. Just a moment, please. Yes, I've managed to read it.

16 Q. Now, the two correspondents in this intercepted communication are

17 Popovic and General Krstic and midway down through this intercepted

18 communication, I will read what is contained in it. Krstic --

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Visnjic.

20 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have reviewed this

21 intercept briefly with my colleague, Mr. Petrusic. Could the Prosecutor

22 explain briefly the purpose of showing him this conversation, because I

23 don't think the witness has discussed the relationship between General

24 Krstic and Pelemis and so on. So could Mr. Harmon explain, please.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon.

Page 9261

1 MR. HARMON: Yes, I can.

2 The witness testified on direct examination that he had not seen

3 Mr. Pelemis at the forward command post and this is relevant to that

4 issue.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Continue, please, Mr. Harmon.


7 Q. I will read to you, Witness DB, what is said in this intercept and

8 I'll start -- I'm starting midway through the intercept.

9 Krstic: Have Miso Pelemis come over here with his unit as

10 soon as possible.

11 Popovic: Yes, sir.

12 Krstic: So have him gather them urgently. Tell his lad that

13 I asked him, because it's really much needed. We have big

14 problems.

15 Popovic: Yes, sir.

16 Krstic: Do you understand?

17 Popovic: Yes, sir.

18 Now, Witness DB, there has been testimony in these proceedings,

19 you first of all testified that you saw the 10th Sabotage Detachment

20 communications officer at the forward command post at Pribicevac on the

21 9th of July and that you had a conversation with him. There has been the

22 testimony of Drazen Erdemovic, who testified in public session, that his

23 commander, during the Srebrenica operation, was Miso Pelemis. There has

24 been video footage introduced in this trial, Prosecution Exhibit 145 bis,

25 showing Miso Pelemis and General Mladic on the 11th of July 1995 in

Page 9262

1 Srebrenica.

2 So do you believe in light of, one, General Krstic's knowledge and

3 familiarity with Miso Pelemis, this intercept, the evidence that I've just

4 described of the presence of Miso Pelemis in Srebrenica, and the article

5 from Drinski magazine that I showed you where the date is, I believe, the

6 24th of July. My first question that Miso Pelemis was present in the area

7 of responsibility of the Drina Corps during the Srebrenica operation.

8 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I think that I have given you an exhaustive answer

9 to that question.

10 Q. Well --

11 A. A detailed answer.

12 Q. Could I have another answer; it won't be exhaustive. Could I have

13 a yes or no to the question that I have asked you. Do you believe that

14 Miso Pelemis was in the Srebrenica area of responsibility on -- during the

15 Srebrenica operation?

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Petrusic.

17 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence objects

18 because we feel that the Prosecutor can ask the witness whether the

19 Witness DB saw or has any knowledge or hearsay knowledge that Miso Pelemis

20 was in Srebrenica but not in the way the question has been put to the

21 witness.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Petrusic. I think that

23 Mr. Harmon, having given a series of information to the witness, and as

24 the witness was in the area, he is asking whether the witness believes

25 what the Prosecutor is asking him. I think it's a legitimate question and

Page 9263

1 the witness is going to answer it. Continue, Mr. Harmon.


3 Q. Witness DB, can you answer my question or would you like me to

4 repeat it?

5 A. If I remember your question correctly, allow me to repeat my

6 answer that I gave half an hour ago. I personally, at the Pribicevac

7 forward command post, did not see Miso Pelemis. But from his signalsman

8 and the shots that I saw here from Srebrenica on the 11th, I learnt that

9 Miso Pelemis and his unit were there, but I personally did not see him.

10 Nor did we - and I mean the command of the Drina Corps - did we have

11 direct contact with Miso Pelemis and his unit.

12 Q. Do you believe that Miso Pelemis, based on the information that I

13 discussed with you, the article that I've shown you from the Drinski

14 magazine, do you believe that Miso Pelemis participated in and was present

15 in the Zepa area of responsibility during the Zepa operation?

16 A. First of all, there is something I have to tell you. The document

17 and the exhibit that you have shown me and which is in front of me now, I

18 have to comment on it because I am a professional, and I have graduated

19 from the highest military schools with respect to ways in which to collect

20 material evidence of this kind, that is, intercepted communications.

21 Q. Witness DB, you can comment on the evidence in just a moment. The

22 question I asked you is, do you believe that Miso Pelemis was present in

23 the Zepa area of responsibility during the Zepa operation?

24 A. I know that I did not see his signalsman or Miso Pelemis, nor do I

25 have any knowledge that Miso Pelemis himself or his unit were at Zepa.

Page 9264

1 Therefore, in the area of Srebrenica, I did see his signalsman, and I knew

2 from information that his unit was there. As for Zepa, neither did I have

3 any knowledge that Miso Pelemis or his unit were there or his signalsman,

4 nor did I see him.

5 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I see it's 3.00. Are we going -- is

6 this an appropriate time to break?

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] How much more time do you need,

8 Mr. Harmon?

9 MR. HARMON: Probably 15 more minutes.


11 MR. HARMON: Fifteen, one five.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Fifteen. [Interpretation] The idea was to finish

13 with this witness today, but just a moment, please. I shall confer with

14 my colleagues.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Petrusic, is it possible for

17 you to envisage now how much time you need for your additional questions?

18 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] That depends on the future

19 questions from the Prosecution. I think we could be able to finish today.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So let's try to finish with this

21 witness today. So Mr. Harmon, please be as economical as you can with the

22 time.


24 Q. Witness, let me turn to another subject, which is related to your

25 testimony, as to when you saw General Krstic at the forward command post

Page 9265

1 in Krivace on the 13th of July. Now, previously you were interviewed by

2 the Office of the Prosecutor. Do you remember that interview?

3 A. Well, I remember it in general terms. I probably don't remember

4 it in all its details, but I remember what I said.

5 Q. And in that interview, Mr. -- do you remember Jean-Rene Ruez, the

6 investigator, the French investigator, asking you questions?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. He asked you the following question: "Okay. So do you remember

9 the 13th of July, at what moment of the day --"

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Visnjic.

11 I apologise, Mr. Harmon.

12 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence has not

13 got the interview. Mr. Harmon is quoting a document. Would he please

14 either rephrase the question or provide us with a copy of the text that he

15 is quoting from and reading into the transcript.

16 MR. HARMON: I will be glad to. I hadn't finished phrasing the

17 question before I was interrupted, but I was going to put the question

18 then to the witness if he remembered the question and he gave that answer.

19 So if I could be permitted, Mr. President, to read the question, I will

20 then ask the question of the witness.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. And afterwards we'll

22 see. We'll hear from Mr. Visnjic.


24 Q. Witness DB, during the interview -- I'm going to read from the

25 transcript of the interview:

Page 9266

1 JEAN-RENE RUEZ Q. Okay, so do you remember 13th of July at

2 what moment of the time did General Krstic arrive to Krivace?

3 A. No, I can't. He had the handover of duties in Drina

4 Corps, so it was probably late in the evening, but I know for

5 sure he wasn't there on the 12th, but he was there when the

6 attack was launched.

7 Witness DB, do you remember being asked that question and do you

8 remember giving that answer?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. All right.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Visnjic, I assume you have

12 no objection at this point in view of what the witness said.

13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. But as a matter

14 of principle, I would like to object to this method of asking questions.

15 We feel that if Mr. Harmon is going to quote from a document, we ought to

16 have the document too, and so should the witness to put himself into the

17 context of what he is being asked, because we cannot assess the witness's

18 answer because we can't assess what is said in the transcript.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon, your reply.

20 MR. HARMON: Yes, the witness remembers the question and remembers

21 the answer accurately. I believe that's sufficient.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Please proceed.

23 MR. HARMON: Now, could I have the witness then shown Prosecutor's

24 Exhibit 364/1, 13 July 1995, tab 10. It's a document that is under seal,

25 and if it's not readily available, I have a copy that I can make available

Page 9267

1 to the witness immediately.

2 Perhaps I will make my copy available, Mr. President, with the

3 assistance of the usher.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, to speed matters up.

5 MR. HARMON: This is the B/C/S version. If you could show that to

6 the witness, please. It's under seal.

7 Q. Please, if you'd read that intercepted communication. I'm

8 referring to the bottom intercepted communication, Witness DB, the one

9 that is intercepted off of the frequency 785.000. You can find it at the

10 lower third of the page. Do you see that, channel 6, 1822 hours?

11 A. And what is the date?

12 Q. The date of this is the 13th of July. The time of this intercept

13 is 1822 hours.

14 MR. HARMON: I don't know if Your Honours have this intercepted

15 communication before Your Honours. It's difficult to examine without

16 this, but I could read this into the record. It's under seal only because

17 there are some initials that appear at the bottom. Can I read this into

18 the record while the witness is reading this?

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, go ahead.

20 MR. HARMON: This is 785.000, I say this is the frequency, channel

21 6, 1822 hours. Participants, X - telephone switchboard (woman)

22 C: He is out.

23 X: What about Colonel Lazic?

24 C: He is in the field.

25 X: Is Lazic there?

Page 9268

1 C: He is in the field.

2 X: Is Krstic there?

3 C: He is outside in front of the building.

4 X: Tell him to come. The men can't wait. Night is falling.

5 They have to work. The operation is at stake.

6 C: He is here with General Mladic.

7 X: Will you please, if it is possible, so that these men

8 don't have to wait/? Tell them to/call on phone number

9 889-110. We are on (line?).

10 C: Okay.

11 X: Is it necessary to dial the area code 071?

12 C: I know.

13 X: Please. Take care. Thank you very much.

14 C: You're welcome. Have a nice day.

15 Q. Witness DB, have you a chance to review this intercepted

16 communication from the 13th of July at 1822 hours?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was General Mladic at the forward command post on the 13th of July

19 at 1822 hours?

20 A. I don't think he was.

21 Q. And what about Colonel Lazic?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Who is Colonel Lazic?

24 A. Colonel Lazic was an operations man in the Drina Corps.

25 Q. And where was Colonel Lazic stationed?

Page 9269

1 A. It says here that he was in the field.

2 Q. Where was he normally stationed?

3 A. In what period?

4 Q. 13th of July, 1995?

5 A. I really don't know where he was exactly because at the time I had

6 a lot of personal jobs -- I had a lot of jobs to attend to myself, and

7 there was a lot of combat activity as well.

8 Q. Do you know where General Mladic was on the 13th of July at 1822

9 hours in the evening?

10 A. I don't know. At the time, I was at the Krivace forward command

11 post.

12 Q. All right. We can conclude with this document.

13 A. May I something, Mr. Prosecutor? May I be allowed to say

14 something?

15 Q. Yes. I am trying to get through this examination quickly. You

16 will have an opportunity with Mr. Petrusic asking you questions but,

17 please, if you have a comment about this document, please proceed.

18 A. I can comment this document only on the assumption that it is

19 correct and authentic, on that assumption alone. Because I was in a

20 position to look through some other documents where two intercepting

21 groups from different positions were intercepting and recording certain

22 conversations and there was so many differences and mistakes and things

23 that were not clear in them that, for example, because of poor audibility

24 and because of the people that were doing the intercepting because they

25 were poorly trained and not professional enough, I remember one of them

Page 9270

1 writing down a report saying, "It's all right we're still fighting,"

2 whereas the other one from the other post was saying, "It's all right,

3 we'll be hearing from each other."

4 So these are words that in our language sound very similar. Their

5 sound is similar but of course they mean something quite different. And I

6 can quote many such examples. So this is just my comment with respect to

7 these documents and, therefore, I can only comment this particular

8 document on the assumption that what it says here is a true copy, an

9 authentic copy of the conversation recorded. Only on that assumption.

10 I say this purely from the aspects of my profession. My

11 professional training in the army allows me to make that comment.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 Now, Witness, you said that you left the forward command post on

14 the 12th of July -- I'm sorry, the evening of the -- you left the forward

15 command post on the 12th of July -- I'm sorry, the 11th of July, the

16 evening of the 11th of July. Now, when you packed up your radio

17 communications van, did you tell the headquarters at the Vlasenica that

18 you were packing up and were going to be off of the communications net?

19 A. I don't remember. I don't remember exactly. I don't remember

20 that detail whether I called them and told them or whether I just packed

21 up and left. I don't remember that particular detail.

22 Q. Well, let's stay with military logic for a moment, Witness DB.

23 The communications centre at the forward command post in Pribicevac was

24 the central, critical communications post on the net; isn't that correct?

25 A. Yes. That was an important link in the command chain.

Page 9271

1 Q. So is it logical, in the military sense, that the important nerve

2 centre, communications nerve centre of the operation would be unplugged

3 and nobody would be told at the operations headquarters at Vlasenica that

4 you were going off line? Could you comment on that, please?

5 A. You're right from the theoretical standpoint. But from Pribicevac

6 to the first major communications point network in Bratunac, I needed

7 about an hour, a maximum of an hour so that as the combat positions

8 changed and the units and the command moved forward, it was essential that

9 a soldier carrying a mobile device go with General Krstic and that he

10 command the units at Srebrenica.

11 So that was the main goal, the main objective and that line

12 remained continuous. But my move to Bratunac and this interruption of one

13 hour at that particular point in time, it was not serious, a serious break

14 in communications because we planned that communications centres should

15 move around. Whether I told Vlasenica or not that we would be moving, I

16 really can't say now.

17 Q. Well, you were out of communications links for about four hours,

18 by my calculation, Witness DB. What do you think you did? Did you tell

19 Vlasenica headquarters that you were going out of the net for about four

20 hours? What do you recall?

21 A. My main job was that I was near to General Zivanovic and near to

22 General Krstic. That was the main thing for me. And it was up to them.

23 They decided everything and they were in command. So me and my

24 connections were there to serve them, whereas the Vlasenica did not

25 interest me any more. There was nobody there in Vlasenica to make key

Page 9272

1 decisions with respect to the Krivaja 95 operation.

2 All the officers taking decisions in the Krivaja 95 operation were

3 close by, close to me in the broader Srebrenica area and I was able to

4 reach them. So it wasn't essential for me to maintain lines with

5 Vlasenica.

6 Q. What was your normal practice when you moved, when you packed up a

7 forward communications centre and moved? Was your normal practice to

8 inform the headquarters that you were doing that?

9 A. Those headquarters, as I said, those -- the decision-makers in the

10 Krivaja 95 operation were there close by me in the area of responsibility

11 and the broader region of Srebrenica. So the reason why I had come to

12 Srebrenica which was to help the command of the Srebrenica operation, that

13 line was not interrupted and that was what was important for me.

14 And let me say again, perhaps I did call Vlasenica purely for

15 technical reasons as a go-between and maybe I didn't. I don't remember.

16 I don't remember that particular detail.

17 Q. All right. My question was something different. What was your

18 normal practice when you pulled up a forward command post communications

19 centre and left and went off the line? Did you normally contact the

20 headquarters and tell them that you were now no -- you were blacked out,

21 you were no longer capable of being communicated with?

22 A. I say again, if the command, if all those in command of the

23 Srebrenica operation, or rather Krivaja 95, had they been in Vlasenica,

24 then it would have certainly been my job to call them. That is the rule.

25 But as I say, they were all in the Srebrenica region.

Page 9273

1 Q. So in the VRS, Witness DB, it is militarily acceptable for a

2 forward command post communications centre to go out of the communication

3 net without informing the headquarters of the corps or those in superior

4 command; is that your testimony?

5 A. No, you said that, Mr. Prosecutor. I am trying to explain to you

6 the practice and what we do in the field, practical steps, wartime steps.

7 So my command was in the broader region of Srebrenica which meant that

8 both General Krstic and General Zivanovic were there. And they, for me,

9 are the command, the commanding officers. And they are the ones requiring

10 those lines. Vlasenica, at that point in time, was just a go-between for

11 other communication lines.

12 Q. We'll move on to a different topic.

13 Who were the other drivers for General Krstic? You mentioned one;

14 could you tell me who the others were?

15 A. At that point in time, of General Krstic's drivers, I remember

16 that there was Dalibor Tosic who, later on, was given another assignment

17 during the operation on Zepa and he was seriously wounded so I link these

18 events up. There was another driver from Vlasenica and his name was

19 Bjelanovic. He came later on, but during those operations, he was there.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon, I apologise for

21 interrupting. I know that you did your best to wind up but I think we

22 have reached our limits and we can't overstep that limit. Let me

23 therefore propose that we hear the end of this testimony tomorrow.

24 Witness DB, you will have to come back tomorrow because I'm afraid

25 we cannot continue now. So we're going to adjourn for the day and we

Page 9274

1 reconvene tomorrow morning at 9.20 to hear the rest of your testimony.

2 I apologise Mr. Harmon, but this is a time constraint that we're

3 facing.

4 MR. HARMON: I apologise I couldn't finish as fast as I wanted

5 but, Your Honour, I have one question and I realise there is a rule about

6 contact with witnesses but I notice that there has been a witness, an

7 expert witness who has been in the audience during the course of DB's

8 testimony, and there is a no-contact rule with this in -- that has been in

9 practice. I know my colleagues from the Defence intend to abide by that

10 but I would ask that the witness who has been in the audience also be

11 admonished not to have contact with this witness overnight.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The witness in the public

13 gallery will be next to testify; is that right, Mr. Harmon? Is that the

14 basis for what you are saying?

15 MR. HARMON: Yes.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Visnjic or Mr. Petrusic,

17 would you like to respond? Mr. Visnjic.

18 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the proposal is in

19 order and we, of course, did intend to adhere to that rule and the

20 witnesses are not located -- have not -- do not have the same

21 accommodation.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Visnjic. We have

23 full confidence in you and we hope that everything will develop properly

24 and in order and we adjourn the meeting until tomorrow morning. Thank

25 you.

Page 9275

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

2 at 3.30 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday

3 the 3rd day of April, 2001, at

4 9.20 a.m.






















Page 9276












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.