Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1329

1 Thursday, 30 March 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.28 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. May the Registrar please

7 call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Case IT-96-23-T,

9 IT-96-23/1-T, the Prosecutor versus Dragoljub Kunarac,

10 Radomir Kovac, and Zoran Vukovic.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We are continuing with

12 cross-examination.

13 Mr. Jovanovic, you were on your feet.

14 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

15 Your Honour.

16 WITNESS: WITNESS 50 [Resumed]

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic:

18 [Cont'd]

19 Q. Good morning. I should like to start off by

20 asking you the following: You have given several

21 statements up to now. Could you tell us at whose

22 initiative these new statements came about?

23 A. At questions by people from the Tribunal.

24 Q. Thank you. I should now like to ask you to

25 take a look at Exhibit D18. It is Defence Exhibit

Page 1330

1 D18. And I just have one small question in that

2 regard.

3 If I have understood you correctly, at the

4 request of the Tribunal you gave this additional

5 statement.

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. I should like to know whether you could

8 clarify the following point.

9 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

10 I am talking about Exhibit D18, and the first sentence

11 of that document, which reads: "I am giving an

12 additional statement to clarify my previous statement,"

13 or words to that effect. I am adding this statement to

14 clarify a portion of my prior statement, and that prior

15 statement was D17 of the 30th and 31st of August.

16 Q. That's right, isn't it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. In your statement of the 31st of August you

19 make no mention of this incident, whereas here you

20 state that you are clarifying a portion of something.

21 And I can only assume that if something needs to be

22 clarified, that something has already been stated.

23 However, your D18 statement of the 5th of September

24 introduces a completely new event. Could you tell us

25 something about that? Were you specifically asked to

Page 1331

1 answer that, and how this came about? Because you make

2 no mention of that previously.

3 A. Well, yes. I explained this yesterday. I

4 said that I had made no mention of it, and then later

5 on I mentioned just a part of it, whereas the last time

6 here I said everything that happened; I told the whole

7 truth, everything that happened.

8 Q. So in fact you're giving us bit by bit of

9 what happened, if I understand you correctly.

10 A. I am giving you what I remember as I remember

11 it.

12 Q. If that is so, then you are telling us what

13 you remembered. Could I ask you: When did you

14 remember the whole incident, in its entirety?

15 A. I remember it today.

16 Q. I'm not asking you whether you remember it

17 today, and don't look at the Prosecution, please.

18 A. Do I have to look at you?

19 Q. No, you don't.

20 A. Well, very well, then. Why shouldn't I look

21 at the Prosecution?

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, would you go ahead

23 with your questions. We are observing the witness

24 here, and if she conducts herself in any way

25 unacceptable in Court, we will correct her. Just go

Page 1332

1 ahead with your questions.

2 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

3 Your Honour.

4 Q. I'm interested in knowing why you made your

5 statements partially, given partial statements, and

6 every time when you give a statement, you introduce new

7 circumstances and new facts.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: The witness has already

9 explained that she used to give explanations of the

10 incidents as she remembered them, at different times,

11 whenever she was questioned. She has already explained

12 why -- the question you are explaining -- you are

13 asking her.

14 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

15 I have received several questions to that one answer of

16 mine: that she responded as she came to remember it,

17 then that she decided to tell the truth when she came

18 to court here, and that at all times she gave 100 per

19 cent statements. Now, I want to know what is correct,

20 because I have received in the course of my

21 cross-examination different answers to my same

22 question. So I should just like to ask the witness to

23 decide on which explanation she wishes to give and what

24 it was, in fact.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Then ask her directly. I'm

Page 1333

1 sure she has understood everything that you have said,

2 so ask her.

3 A. Repeat it please.

4 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Do I have to repeat the question or have you

6 understood?

7 A. Repeat it, please.

8 Q. In giving your answers, you have told me the

9 following: You said that every time you told the truth

10 100 per cent. Then you told me that you told me the

11 truth as you remembered it. And then you said that you

12 decided to tell the whole truth here before the Trial

13 Chamber.

14 A. No, I did not say that I had decided to tell

15 the whole truth before the Trial Chamber. I said that

16 I had decided to tell the Trial Chamber the event in

17 its entirety when I came here, because before that I

18 was ashamed. I said that yesterday, and I say that

19 today. And when I have -- as I have come here, when I

20 came here, I got over my shame and decided to tell the

21 whole incident as it happened. I explained this to you

22 yesterday. I don't know whether I was not clear

23 enough, sir, or perhaps you don't understand our

24 language.

25 Q. I do understand our language very well. But

Page 1334

1 never mind.

2 When you decided to come before this Trial

3 Chamber and tell them, or you remembered the second

4 incident that you took -- or incident you took part in,

5 you were a party to, and that you had the name of an

6 individual who was an ethnic Serb --

7 A. I don't understand. Where's the question

8 there in what you're saying? What question are you

9 asking me?

10 Q. In your statement yesterday -- in your

11 testimony yesterday you told us about an event, and it

12 was when you spent the night in a house where you were

13 introduced as being a Serbian girl.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And now I'm asking you: When did you decide

16 to recount that particular incident before this

17 Tribunal?

18 A. It wasn't a decision. When I made these

19 decisions [sic], I had forgotten about that particular

20 incident. But now, thinking about all the events and

21 the statements and everything that happened to me, I

22 tried to go through events day by day and everything

23 that happened to me day by day; and every new

24 recollection as it came to me, I recounted it here.

25 And among other things, that was one of them, although

Page 1335

1 it was very difficult for me. Perhaps I remembered it

2 before the amended statements. I didn't perhaps

3 mention this because I had to give another name and

4 surname and say that I was a Serb. This was all

5 difficult for me. But as I have come here and as my

6 recollections come to me, I am saying everything as it

7 happened, all of it.

8 Q. Is there anything else that you have

9 remembered in the meantime and have decided to recount?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. Did you remember this incident before the

12 26th of March, 2000?

13 A. Yes. Yes, I did.

14 Q. You didn't mention this in your conversation

15 with the Prosecution on the 26th of March. Why?

16 A. Yes, I did. I mentioned it.

17 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

18 may I just have a moment to look something up?

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please go ahead.

20 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The Exhibit

21 D19, information relating to the 26th of March, 2000,

22 the witness states that she told this to the

23 Prosecution, but no mention is made of this in this

24 document.

25 Q. Can you explain that to us, please?

Page 1336

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic, that is not the

2 statement. You heard what the Prosecution said. That

3 document contains their notes. They, the Prosecution,

4 decided what to put in there, not the witness.

5 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

6 Honour.

7 Q. In addition to what happened to you in Buk

8 Bijela, do you know whether anything happened to

9 anybody else?

10 A. I didn't see anything. I personally didn't

11 see anything.

12 Q. I didn't ask you whether you saw anything; I

13 asked you whether you knew.

14 A. Yes, I did know.

15 Q. You knew about what happened to whom? Could

16 you use the codes, not to mention names, and give us

17 the numbers.

18 A. For example, person 75.

19 Q. Anybody else?

20 A. I don't know that exactly, and I'm not going

21 to say anything that I'm not sure of. Because, anyway,

22 I heard this from others. I could only have heard

23 things from others.

24 Q. Thank you. Let's go back now to Exhibit D17,

25 your statement of the 30th and 31st of August, 1995. I

Page 1337

1 have several questions. Could you please look at page

2 2 -- it is page 2 of the B/C/S version, Your Honours --

3 and paragraph 5, and the sentence begins with: "Apart

4 from that," or words to that effect.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Would you read that sentence out, please.

7 There are two of them.

8 A. "Apart from that, until July, it was

9 relatively quiet in Mjesaja. There was no resistance

10 to begin with. It was quiet."

11 Q. Thank you. What do you mean when you say,

12 "There was no resistance to begin with"?

13 A. Well, for example, when the weapons were

14 surrendered in May, all the people who had hunting

15 weapons, for example, or weapons for which they had

16 permits, surrendered them, which means they became

17 loyal to the Serbian authorities.

18 Q. Was there resistance later?

19 A. Later on, I don't know. I'm not aware of

20 that. I am not aware of the fact that there was

21 resistance at any time, ever.

22 Q. But from what you say here --

23 A. Well, you should read the text better. I

24 think that the text is quite clear.

25 Q. Perhaps it is clear to you.

Page 1338

1 THE INTERPRETER: Would counsel please make

2 pauses between questions and answers.

3 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Perhaps it's clear to you, but it isn't to

5 me, and that is why I am asking you.

6 A. I have given you an explanation. What I

7 meant was that no resistance was made. The weapons

8 were surrendered. That was all okay. We were told

9 everything would be all right and in order. And I

10 considered this to be a smaller incident. That's what

11 it meant. And until July, things were relatively

12 quiet. But, sir, even before July, people would shoot

13 at our house at random and give us a fright. If you

14 mean this word "relative," I used the word

15 "relatively," that is the relativity.

16 Q. So this is another incident that we hear

17 about that people shot at your house. The previous

18 witnesses, your mother and father, did not state that.

19 A. Yes. On one occasion I was in front of the

20 house --

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, these three people,

22 the witness, the parents, are different people, all

23 right, so you shouldn't expect that everything that

24 this witness observed must have been observed by the

25 parents all the time. No.

Page 1339

1 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

2 I don't expect that, but in view of the statement made

3 by this witness, and she says that she spends all her

4 time with her mother, she says that here, I'm just

5 interested in knowing, because they're not slight

6 differences, they're not differences in minor details,

7 whether somebody was dressed in one way or in another

8 way; they were all there together.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Not everything that this

10 witness observed should have been observed by her

11 parents. Not everything. All right?

12 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

13 Honour. You're quite right.

14 Q. In your statement yesterday you told us that

15 you do not remember, because of the passage of time,

16 and please correct me if I'm wrong, the situation and

17 the circumstances of your arrest.

18 A. No, I really don't remember. That's true.

19 Q. We are now on page 3. If you turn to page 3,

20 please, Witness, paragraph 2 states: "My family and

21 I," or words to that effect. Would you read the

22 sentence? Perhaps that will refresh your memory. "My

23 family, myself and the others," the paragraph starts.

24 A. No, I have read this, and what I remember I

25 said. I no longer remember how the circumstances of

Page 1340

1 what happened.

2 Q. Did you make this statement yourself?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. Do you stand by what you stated here?

5 A. I said I can't remember anymore.

6 Q. So if I understand you correctly, you don't

7 remember what you gave to the Prosecution.

8 A. Is that a terrible thing, if I can't remember

9 every detail?

10 Q. I'm not asking you if it's a terrible thing.

11 A. Well, then I'm telling you, I don't remember

12 how it came about.

13 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

14 Your Honours. I have no further questions.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Any other counsel?

16 Yes. Go ahead.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

18 Honour. I shall continue the cross-examination of the

19 witness here today.

20 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

21 Q. In her testimony yesterday, the witness said

22 that she was raped on the 2nd of August, 1992, and my

23 question is as follows: When on the 2nd of August,

24 1992 were you taken from Partizan? I apologise. I'm

25 going to remind the witness, it is in the statement

Page 1341

1 that she made on the 30th and 31st of August, 1995. It

2 is Exhibit D17, page 8, paragraph 5, and it says: "I

3 was again raped," or words to that effect. "I was raped

4 once more." Were you taken from Partizan that day?

5 A. I don't know exactly.

6 Q. Was it in the morning or in the afternoon?

7 A. I think it was in the afternoon.

8 Q. What time in the afternoon?

9 A. Well, I don't remember.

10 Q. Let me remind you of your statement of August

11 1995, where you say, or you could read it yourself: "I

12 remember this date because the mosque was destroyed in

13 Foca on that day."

14 Was it two o'clock in the afternoon, earlier,

15 or later?

16 A. I don't remember exactly.

17 Q. Is what you stated true, that it was at 2.00

18 p.m.

19 A. I can no longer remember.

20 Q. When was your memory better, when you gave

21 your 1995 statement or when you gave testimony

22 yesterday?

23 A. Well, of course it was better in 1995, I

24 suppose, but there are always differences of detail.

25 Q. Who took you away from Partizan and who took

Page 1342

1 you off to this house?

2 A. I can't remember the people.

3 Q. Can you describe them to us? How were they

4 dressed, for example?

5 A. They had military clothing. I don't know.

6 Q. How many were there?

7 A. Well, I really don't remember anymore.

8 Q. How were you taken to that house?

9 A. We went by car.

10 Q. I'm waiting for an answer. How did you go

11 there? Did you go on foot or what?

12 A. I already answered.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: She said they went by car.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation].

15 Q. What colour was that car?

16 A. I cannot remember now, honestly.

17 Q. In your statement, in this paragraph, you

18 said that you were taken in a car that was driven by

19 Zoran Vukovic.

20 A. Yes, I said that.

21 Q. When you arrived in this house, who did you

22 find there?

23 A. I don't know exactly. I think there were

24 other soldiers there, but I cannot remember exactly

25 now.

Page 1343

1 Q. Did you go by yourself that day with these

2 two soldiers?

3 A. No. There were other girls as well.

4 Q. With you in the car?

5 A. Well, that I no longer know. In the house

6 there were other girls for sure.

7 Q. Do you remember who were these girls?

8 A. Person DB, person 85 -- 75, for sure. I

9 don't know about the rest.

10 Q. In your statement, the one that is in front

11 of you, you said that they came after you had arrived.

12 If you can read that, that is the one-but-last

13 paragraph.

14 A. What page is this on?

15 Q. Page number 8. The paragraph starts with the

16 words: "I was raped once more," and then it's the last

17 two lines. Read them.

18 A. Yes, I've read them.

19 Q. Could you please read it out loud without

20 mentioning the names. Just read it. "After I

21 arrived ..." -- could you read it?

22 A. "After I arrived other girls were brought in

23 every 15 minutes or so."

24 Q. All right. So what is correct. Were they

25 there when you arrived or did they come after you had

Page 1344

1 arrived?

2 A. I no longer remember.

3 Q. I'm asking you once again: When was your

4 memory better? Then or today, when you're answering

5 these questions?

6 A. It was probably better then, but I cannot

7 assert that.

8 Q. Very well. How many times were you in this

9 house? Before you came then?

10 A. I was never there before.

11 Q. So that was the first time you were in that

12 house?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Would you describe this house to me.

15 A. Well, it was a medium sized house. It had a

16 ground floor and a floor above it. Upstairs there were

17 perhaps three or four rooms, I mean including the

18 entire area.

19 Q. Would you please make a sketch of that house

20 for me? Could you just sketch it, draw it briefly, so

21 that we could all use it.

22 A. A sketch of the inside of the apartment?

23 Q. A sketch of the house, what it looked like

24 when you got into it.

25 [Witness complies]

Page 1345

1 A. I can't do it. I don't remember that well

2 enough anymore in order to be able to draw it.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation].

4 Q. Thank you. Give me a description of the room

5 that you came into and who was sitting in that room at

6 that moment, since you are unable to make a sketch.

7 A. I already told you that I don't know exactly

8 who was sitting there. In the room there was a table,

9 two sofas. I cannot remember any other details. There

10 was one room. When you enter the house. Yes. Yes.

11 From the staircase, that was the first room that you'd

12 enter.

13 Q. When you came, were these girls that you

14 mentioned together with you?

15 A. I don't know. I no longer remember that. I

16 know that they were there but when they were brought.

17 Q. You said it was DB, 87 and 75?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How much time did you spend in that house

20 from the moment you arrived until the moment you left?

21 A. I don't know exactly. I left after midnight.

22 Q. Who stayed in the house after you had left?

23 A. The soldiers stayed. I think that the girls

24 also stayed.

25 Q. Which girls?

Page 1346

1 A. I cannot remember now.

2 Q. How many girls?

3 A. I do not recall.

4 Q. You said that you were raped in that house.

5 A. Yes. Yes, that's what I said.

6 Q. How many times?

7 A. Twice.

8 Q. Who raped you?

9 A. Once Zaga, the other time another man, an

10 unknown man.

11 Q. Who was the first of the two to rape you?

12 A. The first was Zaga.

13 Q. When was that after the moment you arrived?

14 A. I don't know exactly. It was dark, I think.

15 Q. Who was in the house at that moment when Zaga

16 raped you, and where did he rape you?

17 A. In the room. In relation to the entrance

18 door, the room was on the left-hand side.

19 Q. Who was with you in the room?

20 A. In the first room or in the room where he

21 raped me?

22 Q. In the room where he raped you.

23 A. No one.

24 Q. Did you notice anything characteristic on the

25 person that raped you, and you say that that person is

Page 1347

1 Dragoljub Kunarac?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. Tell us what that was.

4 A. Eyes.

5 Q. Did he have anything else that was

6 characteristic and that you noticed?

7 A. On him, I do not remember exactly now.

8 Q. Was he fatter than he is now?

9 A. A bit.

10 Q. Was he shaven or did he have a beard?

11 A. I don't remember about the beard.

12 Q. Was his hair longer or shorter?

13 A. Longer.

14 Q. Did he have all his teeth?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Did he have a scarf or a band of any kind on?

17 A. I don't know that either. There were so many

18 of them. I cannot remember exactly who had what.

19 Q. Did he have a chain or a pendant around his

20 neck?

21 A. I don't know. I don't know.

22 Q. You said that the other person in that

23 room -- in that house who raped you was an elderly

24 man.

25 A. Yes.

Page 1348

1 Q. When did he rape you?

2 A. After this one.

3 Q. How much time had elapsed between the first

4 and the second rape?

5 A. I don't know exactly. Approximately maybe a

6 few hours. I don't know exactly.

7 Q. This other rape was before the detonation

8 that you heard then?

9 A. It was not. It was after.

10 Q. When was the detonation?

11 A. I don't remember exactly. It had to be

12 before midnight.

13 Q. In your statement you said that it was 8.00

14 in the evening. That is page number 9 of your

15 statement, paragraph 2. It starts with the following

16 words: "Later that night the mosque was destroyed."

17 Could you continue? Can you continue?

18 A. You want me to read?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. "I was in the tailor's house at that time.

21 The aladza mosque was standing at the time when I

22 arrived but I saw that it was badly damaged. It was

23 about 8.00 or so in the evening.

24 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that it was at 8.00

25 in the evening or now you are saying some other time?

Page 1349

1 If you can say exactly when it was at all.

2 A. I know that I know for sure that it was

3 before midnight, madam, and I'm telling you that I

4 forgot quite a few things. I do not know exactly. I

5 cannot tell you exactly.

6 Q. So you cannot say exactly when the detonation

7 occurred and when the mosque was destroyed?

8 A. I cannot say the exact time. I was not

9 looking at my watch.

10 Q. How much time did you spend in the house

11 after having heard the detonation?

12 A. I don't know exactly. I was returned to

13 Partizan perhaps two or three hours after midnight.

14 Q. Who returned you?

15 A. I do not recall anymore really.

16 Q. How did you return? Did you return on foot

17 or by car?

18 A. I can't remember that either.

19 Q. Who returned with you?

20 A. No one.

21 Q. So you returned on your own?

22 A. No. I meant none of the girls. Some soldier

23 brought me back. We never returned by ourselves.

24 Q. You said that an elderly man raped you in

25 that house.

Page 1350

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Where did he rape you?

3 A. In the workshop, the room that I described as

4 a workshop in the ground floor.

5 Q. Was it perhaps the basement, or is it exactly

6 the ground floor?

7 A. That is a house -- that is a room attached to

8 the house, on the ground floor.

9 Q. So is it a workshop or is it a room, in the

10 sense of the furnishings?

11 A. I did not notice that it had any furniture.

12 Perhaps one bed. I can't remember now. I don't know.

13 Q. How many rooms are upstairs?

14 A. I told you, three or four. I can't remember

15 exactly.

16 Q. In the statement that you made and that is in

17 front of you, on page 8, towards the end of the page,

18 it starts with: "The tailor's house." And page 9.

19 Turn to page 9. Read it.

20 A. "He took me to another room and raped me

21 there."

22 Q. At that time you did not say that that was a

23 workshop. Do you allow for the possibility of that

24 being another upstairs room next to the other room?

25 A. I don't think it was an upstairs room.

Page 1351

1 Q. So what is correct, then? Is it a room or a

2 workroom, workshop?

3 A. Madam, I don't know what it is. It's a

4 room. I don't know whether it was a room or a workshop

5 room.

6 Q. I'm going to remind you, yesterday you said

7 it was a workroom. A workshop. That's why I'm asking

8 you something. A workroom is something specific and a

9 room is something different?

10 A. Well, all of it are rooms for me.

11 Q. You said that you were raped by Dragoljub

12 Kunarac, Zaga.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. According to the first statement that you

15 made to the investigators of the Tribunal, you did not

16 say that. I pointed this out to you now. You told us

17 about the event that occurred in the house. Could you

18 tell us why you did not speak of that event then?

19 A. I think I did not remember when I talked. I

20 think I did not remember that event, and that's how I

21 came to omit it.

22 Q. And when did you remember?

23 A. Gradually, when I looked at pictures, several

24 pictures. I don't know. I pointed out a photograph.

25 I remembered a lot. My memory started coming back.

Page 1352

1 And the more I thought about it, I know what happened,

2 where it was, and I know it was him.

3 Q. I'm now going to show you your statement, the

4 one that you made to the investigators of the Tribunal

5 on the 31st of March, 1998?

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could that

7 statement please be admitted into evidence. That is

8 the statement where the witness is involved in

9 recognition.

10 THE REGISTRAR: [No [Interpretation]

11 JUDGE MUMBA: We can't hear the

12 interpretation.

13 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This exhibit

14 will be D20, Defence Exhibit D20. The witness

15 statement dated the 31st of March, 1998, will be marked

16 Exhibit D20, Defence Exhibit.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Do you have the statement in front of you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. First let me ask you: Do you know when

21 Dragoljub Kunarac was arrested?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you watch this on television, his

24 surrender?

25 A. No, never.

Page 1353

1 Q. When this photo file was shown to you, were

2 you told why you were being shown this?

3 A. No. No. I was just told that I should try

4 to recognise someone if I know them, people in these

5 pictures.

6 Q. Were you asked whether you could recognise

7 Dragoljub Kunarac?

8 A. No.

9 Q. In the court's -- in the memorandum which was

10 D19, Prosecution Exhibit D19, when on the 26th of March

11 you had your talk, it was said that you could correct

12 your statement, and you were allowed to read your

13 statement.

14 A. Yes, that's right.

15 Q. And you were told that you could correct the

16 statement, make any corrections to it.

17 A. Well, I don't know what was exactly said to

18 me.

19 Q. You said you would add to some -- add some

20 incidents.

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. And you added the incident which took place

23 with the accused Vukovic.

24 A. Yes, I added that.

25 Q. Why didn't you add the incident which took

Page 1354

1 place with Mr. Kunarac?

2 A. Because at that time -- I don't know how to

3 explain this -- I was not certain enough that it was him.

4 Q. And when did you become certain?

5 A. Well, when I saw him yesterday. Then I was

6 the most certain I could ever be, and I know this for

7 sure, 1.000 per cent. I can see him, and I know him,

8 and they know it, he knows it.

9 Q. How can you remember that after eight years?

10 A. Very well, madam. If you experience

11 something like that, you can never forget it,

12 especially when you look those people in the eyes.

13 I'll never forget that.

14 Q. Did you follow the proceedings in this

15 Tribunal through the media?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Why did you not tell the investigators of the

18 Tribunal when you looked at the line-up of photographs

19 that you were raped by Dragoljub Kunarac on the 31st of

20 March, 1998?

21 A. Because on that particular photograph I did

22 not say it was actually Dragoljub Kunarac. What I said

23 was that it was an individual that I had seen, that was

24 familiar, and I described everything. And then I

25 thought about it and I wasn't that sure at the time,

Page 1355

1 because you know, when you see a photograph, a

2 photograph is something different.

3 Q. I'm going to ask you on the statement that

4 you have in front of you to read paragraph 3 of that

5 statement?

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we just for clarity's sake,

7 which statement now?

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] It is D19.

9 No, I apologise. D20, Your Honours. It is the

10 statement of the 31st of March, 1998.

11 Q. It is paragraph 3.

12 A. "I have pointed at photograph number 7."

13 Q. Yes. That's it. Would you read the

14 paragraph to the end?

15 A. "I do not know this person's name, but I think

16 that I may have seen him at a private house in Aladza,

17 which is in Foca. I cannot be more positive than to

18 say that I think this is the man I saw there. And I

19 cannot be 100 per cent sure."

20 Q. You said that you didn't know the

21 individual's name. When did you remember the name of

22 Dragoljub Kunarac?

23 A. I always knew the name, but I didn't dare say

24 it, because I was afraid I might be wrong, that it

25 might not be the man on number 7, photograph number 7.

Page 1356

1 I didn't want to do anything which was not absolutely

2 correct and certain. That's what I was afraid of.

3 Q. I'm going to ask you once again: Did you

4 watch these proceedings on the media?

5 A. I said that I never had.

6 Q. Were you sitting in the public gallery ever?

7 A. No, never.

8 Q. Did Kunarac look different on that occasion

9 than he does today?

10 A. Well, I described that to you a moment ago.

11 He did look a little different.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] With the

13 Trial Chamber's permission, I should like to show a

14 photo line-up with the photographs of the accused,

15 amongst others, and I should like to ask the witness to

16 be shown this photographic display for her to look at

17 and to tell us whether she can recognise any of the

18 people. With the Court's permission, of course.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: I just want to find out whether

20 the Prosecution have copies, or are these photographs

21 in the binder?

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I have copies

23 for the Prosecution as well.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: What I want to ask from counsel

25 is: Is this a copy of the photographs in the binders,

Page 1357

1 or are these photographs only from the Defence?

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] These are

3 copies of the Defence.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Because these are photocopies.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Some

6 individuals on this photo line-up are in the

7 Prosecution's binder, some of these photographs, and

8 that is why I am asking permission from the Trial

9 Chamber. But not all of them, no.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And the other point is,

11 these are photocopies. They are not photographs; they

12 are photocopies.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, these

14 are photocopies.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: And they are not clear.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] We have not

17 got the original photographs. I would just like to ask

18 the Trial Chamber to rule on whether we can show a

19 photographic display of this kind to the witness. If

20 that is all right, very well. If not, it is your

21 decision.

22 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

23 JUDGE HUNT: The problem I have with it is

24 that there would be no value in using a document such

25 as you've handed up. The photostats of photographs are

Page 1358

1 always very indistinct. You are not going to get a

2 good result or a valuable result from using mere

3 photostats. If you have the original photographs,

4 then subject to anything the Prosecution may want to

5 say about the spread of photographs, I for myself would

6 see no problem with it. But to use photostats of

7 photographs is a completely useless procedure, if I may

8 say so.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

10 the Defence does not possess the original photographs;

11 all we have is photocopies, and we did this on the

12 basis of the copies that we got from the Prosecution.

13 The Prosecution also showed copies to witnesses.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: What about the other

15 photographs, because you didn't say -- yes, the other

16 ones. Don't you have other photographs?

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No. They're

18 all copies. I am just seeking the Trial Chamber's

19 permission and ruling.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Did you say -- I'm sorry. You

21 are reported on the transcript as having said that the

22 Prosecution had shown copies to witnesses. Do you mean

23 photostat copies? If so, you better point out to us

24 where that happened.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The

Page 1359

1 photocopies of photographs, photostats of photographs,

2 because that is what we have been given by the

3 Prosecution. If the Prosecution does have the

4 originals, then that is not a point to be contested, of

5 course. But the Defence only has the copies. If the

6 Prosecution has the originals, then there's no problem

7 there. I will withdraw my proposal and request.

8 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

9 JUDGE MUMBA: We just want to verify with the

10 Prosecution whether they have any of the photographs of

11 any of the people on this chart. And while we are

12 discussing this chart, can we have a number, just for

13 identification, please?

14 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be number

15 D21, and it is a Defence exhibit.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution.

17 MS. KUO: Your Honours, the photo spread that

18 was shown to this witness were not photostat copies;

19 they were photographs. We provided photostat copies to

20 the Defence so we didn't have to reproduce all the

21 photographs. We have never received a request from the

22 Defence for the original photographs, and I see from

23 the Defence Exhibit D21 we most likely have some of

24 these originals, as I recognise some of the

25 photographs, but certainly not all of them.

Page 1360

1 JUDGE HUNT: What do you say about the spread

2 of photographs, or would you prefer to wait until you

3 see the originals of them all?

4 MS. KUO: It's rather hard to see on this

5 photostat copy, and I would prefer to see the

6 originals.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Defence counsel, you've

8 understood, I'm sure, the comments from the bench and

9 what the Prosecution have just said, so what are you

10 going to do?

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I will not be

12 showing this photo spread to the witness at this point

13 in time.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Thank you very

15 much. So D21 is not admitted; it's just marked for

16 identification. Okay.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] May I

18 continue my cross-examination?

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. When did you see Dragoljub Kunarac for the

22 first time in Foca, in the 14 days of your detention

23 there -- 40 days?

24 A. I don't remember exactly.

25 Q. Did you see him in the secondary school?

Page 1361

1 A. I don't remember that either. I don't think

2 I saw him in the secondary school.

3 Q. Did you see him at Partizan?

4 A. I did see him at Partizan, yes.

5 Q. When did you see him in Partizan? During the

6 day or at night?

7 A. I don't know exactly. I don't remember

8 whether it was daytime or night-time.

9 Q. Did he go into the Partizan premises or did

10 you see him in front of the Partizan building?

11 A. I don't know. I don't know exactly. I could

12 only leave the Partizan building with permission from

13 them or if I was taken off by them, which means -- I

14 can't say exactly whether I saw him inside or outside.

15 Q. Let me remind you. Do you remember a

16 journalist, a female journalist coming to Partizan?

17 A. I remember that very poorly.

18 Q. Did any of your colleagues, the girls you

19 were with in the Partizan, did they tell you that a

20 journalist woman came?

21 A. Well, they did talk about it, but I don't

22 remember.

23 Q. Do you remember who told you?

24 A. I think it was person 48 who told me about

25 it.

Page 1362

1 Q. Did she tell you who talked to this

2 journalist?

3 A. No, I don't remember her saying anything of

4 that kind. I don't know, I really don't.

5 Q. And that was the first time you got to know

6 the name of the individual who raped you at the Aladza

7 house whom you say was Dragoljub Kunarac?

8 A. When I learned this for the first time, is

9 that what you're asking me?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. Well, I don't remember.

12 Q. I would now like us to go back to an incident

13 that you described at the beginning of your statement,

14 and I should like to ask you to write down the names of

15 the individuals who hid in the woods on the 3rd of July

16 together with you.

17 A. You want me to write it down?

18 Q. Yes, please. Or if you can show us on the

19 list, but I would rather that you wrote down who was

20 with you for identification purposes.

21 A. Am I allowed to speak out the names of other

22 people here? Are they not protected people?

23 Q. That is why I'm asking you to write the names

24 down, so that they continue to be protected.

25 A. Well, I can't write it down.

Page 1363

1 Q. But you said who was with you. I'm just

2 asking you to write down their names.

3 A. Who did I tell this to?

4 Q. To the investigators of the Tribunal. I am

5 just asking you to write down the names. You've said

6 you were with a group.

7 A. Yes, I did say I was with a group.

8 Q. Well, would you just write down the names of

9 the people in that who were with you, nothing else?

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness, you should write down

11 the names of those people you can remember.

12 [Witness complies]

13 A. Do you want me to write down the names of the

14 children as well?

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. I apologise. Could you say that again?

17 A. The children's names?

18 Q. No, that's not necessary. You can just write

19 down the number of children that were with you.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this

21 please be admitted into evidence. And I would like to

22 thank the witness.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the usher please show the

24 other Defence counsel, please.

25 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be D22,

Page 1364

1 Defence exhibit, and it will be confidential.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. I would like to ask the witness to go back to

4 page number 8 of her statement so that we could clarify

5 a few more matters. That is D17. That is Defence

6 Exhibit number 17.

7 I'm just going to remind you of the fact that

8 you said that there were men there, soldiers. Can you

9 say how many soldiers?

10 A. I cannot exactly. I don't know.

11 Q. Can you give an approximate number? Five,

12 ten?

13 A. I cannot give an approximation, because I

14 don't know, I really don't know.

15 Q. And how many were there when you came?

16 A. I can't remember that now either.

17 Q. During the detonation, when the Aladza mosque

18 was blown up, did you go out of the house?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. [No interpretation]

21 A. I don't remember. I do not remember where he

22 was.

23 Q. Was he in the house? You said that he was

24 the first who raped you?

25 A. Yes, yes, that's what I said.

Page 1365

1 Q. So he was in the house when you were there?

2 A. I don't know whether he was in the house when

3 we arrived.

4 Q. Can you say whether --

5 A. I cannot tell you something I do not know.

6 Q. What was that? When did you first see him in

7 that house?

8 A. That day when I was in the house.

9 Q. Can you say when, at what time?

10 A. I can't. I told you that already.

11 Q. And the persons who drove you there, were

12 they in the house with you?

13 A. Yes. Yes. Yes, they were there.

14 Q. Were they there all the time with you?

15 A. That I can no longer remember.

16 Q. I do apologise, but let us clarify this once

17 again. Your memory was better when you made your first

18 statement than it is now?

19 A. Well, not better, but there were details.

20 Q. When you made the statement it was with

21 details?

22 A. Well, I remembered certain minor details

23 better than I remember them nowadays, who was in the

24 house, who left, who came back, et cetera.

25 Q. Do you allow for the possibility of this not

Page 1366

1 being a detail, when somebody commits such an act like

2 you say Mr. Kunarac committed vis-à-vis yourself?

3 A. I'm not saying that I remembered only now.

4 Madam, I said that it was slowly coming back into my

5 memory. It indeed is not a small act, madam.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I

7 have no further questions.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, any questions?

9 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your

10 Honour.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination for the

12 Prosecution?

13 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: The bench has no questions.

15 Thank you very much, Witness, for giving evidence to

16 the Tribunal. You are now free to go.

17 We have to have a 10-minute break so the

18 technicians can rectify the voice distortion for the

19 next witness. So we'll rise for ten minutes.

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 --- Break taken at 10.38 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 10.48 a.m.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Good morning, Witness.

25 Please make your solemn declaration.

Page 1367

1 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

2 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

3 truth.


5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution, please.

6 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

7 Q. Good morning, Witness?

8 A. Good morning.

9 Q. Before I start with the questions, could the

10 witness be given the next Prosecution Exhibit. It's a

11 sheet of paper with names on it.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Are you going to use both of

13 them?

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, let's deal with them

16 then. Let's have them admitted so once you start,

17 there's no stopping.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But I will not use them

19 at the same time.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes.

21 THE REGISTRAR: These documents will be

22 admitted as D148 and D149, as Prosecution Exhibits, and

23 they will be confidential. 188 and 189. D189.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Shouldn't it be P? Because

25 they are Prosecution exhibits.

Page 1368

1 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that is the way we have

2 been admitting exhibits. When we had Prosecution

3 Exhibits, though, we did not put the letter P.

4 However, if you wish, Prosecution exhibits can be

5 marked with a P.

6 JUDGE HUNT: The point is that you've called

7 them D, and it's just we're correcting that, so if you

8 want to call them anything, it should be P. But the

9 number will do.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me. It must have been

11 a mistake. I said D by accident, and perhaps it was a

12 mistake in the interpretation. However, if you wish

13 Prosecution Exhibits I can mark with a P and Defence

14 Exhibits I can mark with a D if you wish.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

16 Proceed, please.


18 Q. Witness, would you please look at the first

19 sheet you got, the sheet with the fewer names on it.

20 The first name next to the number 75, is this

21 your name?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And the date next to this name, is it your

24 birth date?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1369

1 Q. The short name below number 75, is that your

2 nickname?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The next line, the name in the next line, is

5 this your mother's name?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And the following name in the next line, is

8 that your father's name?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And the very next name, is that your

11 brother's name?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And the last name on this sheet of paper, is

14 that your uncle's name?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What is your ethnicity?

17 A. Muslim.

18 Q. Where did you live before the war?

19 A. The village of Trosanj, by Foca.

20 Q. Can you explain where this village is

21 situated, especially in relation to the town of Foca

22 and in relation to Mjesaja?

23 A. Approximately ten kilometres away from Foca,

24 upstream, along the Drina River.

25 Q. And in relation to Mjesaja?

Page 1370

1 A. It's the same place, except that my village

2 is a bit higher up in relation to Mjesaja.

3 Q. How many Muslims lived in Trosanj?

4 A. I think around 150, approximately.

5 Q. Was Trosanj a mixed neighbourhood? Did also

6 Serbs live there?

7 A. Not directly in the village; around the

8 village there were Serb houses, yes.

9 Q. During the events, how old were you?

10 A. Twenty-four.

11 Q. What was your occupation at that time?

12 A. Well, I worked at the Sipad Maglic company in

13 Brod.

14 Q. Were you or your family members involved in

15 politics?

16 A. No.

17 Q. When was your last working day?

18 A. My last working day was Monday, the 6th, the

19 6th of April, 1992.

20 Q. Did you go to work on that day?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you actually work on that day, that means

23 stay there and do your work?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Why not?

Page 1371

1 A. When I arrived at the company, I found only

2 two colleagues of mine there. I said, "What's going

3 on? Why isn't anybody working?" And they also didn't

4 know. When Nenad Matovic, the Serb who was director,

5 arrived, he said that the company would be closed up

6 and that we would not be working until further notice.

7 And I had no idea what was wrong with these people and

8 why they hadn't come to work. They said that there

9 would be a war, but I did not believe that. I did not

10 understand what kind of a war, who would attack, from

11 where.

12 Q. Did anything happen on that day in Foca that

13 you saw?

14 A. We went to Foca by bus and we saw many cars

15 there, and also they had banners saying we are in

16 favour of peace. We expected a speech to be made, but

17 there were no speeches made. We returned from Foca by

18 bus again. We went home.

19 Q. When you say "we," whom do you mean?

20 A. Well, I and two of my colleagues. We came

21 together to the company and that's how we went to Foca

22 also, together.

23 Q. Those you saw having banners, what were

24 they? Could you see if they were Serbs or Muslims, or

25 even both?

Page 1372

1 A. Those were Muslims, because at that time the

2 Serbs were fleeing Foca. They were taking their

3 families to Serbian Montenegro, because they knew what

4 they were doing and what they were preparing, whereas

5 we did not know a thing.

6 Q. How do you know that?

7 A. Well, we know because we found out from our

8 Serb neighbours, and our Serb neighbours were also

9 sending their wives and children to Serbian Montenegro.

10 Q. When did the war start in Foca?

11 A. The war in Foca started on the 8th of April,

12 1992.

13 Q. How do you know that? What did you see?

14 A. Then, on the 8th of April, I went to the shop

15 to get some small things for the house. However, a

16 relative of mine met me halfway and said I should not

17 go there because Foca was ablaze. Foca was burning.

18 Who attacked? He said, it's the Serbs, the Chetniks

19 who attacked.

20 Q. Did you yourself see or hear anything related

21 to war activities at that time?

22 A. No. Shooting and shelling could be heard

23 from Foca. It could be heard clearly, although we were

24 in the village. But it could be heard quite clearly,

25 shooting, shelling.

Page 1373

1 Q. At that time, that is, 8th April, 1992, did

2 anything happen in your village?

3 A. No. At that moment nothing happened in my

4 village, although there was fear and tension, and we

5 were all fleeing into the woods, and that's where we

6 slept too, in the woods.

7 Q. From what time onwards did you sleep in the

8 woods?

9 A. From the beginning: The month of April until

10 July, until we were attacked.

11 Q. You said there was fear and tension in the

12 village. Where did it come from? What were you

13 fearing?

14 A. Well, we were afraid of the Serbs, of course,

15 the Serb army, and these Chetniks who were coming from

16 Serbian Montenegro, the so-called Arkan people, Seselj

17 people, the Beli Orlovi, the White Eagles, that is.

18 Q. How did you hear about these things?

19 A. We heard quite a bit on the radio. The

20 aggression started throughout Bosnia then. We heard

21 quite a bit over the radio and then our Serb neighbours

22 told us a lot as well. Like, no one would do anything

23 to us unless these Seselj people, Arkan people, Beli

24 Orlovi, came. They said that we could sleep

25 peacefully, that we didn't have to go anywhere. But we

Page 1374

1 did not trust them.

2 Q. Did you yourself see something happen in the

3 surrounding villages?

4 A. Yes. All the surrounding villages that could

5 be seen during those months while we were there, all of

6 them were burned.

7 Q. Were the villagers of Trosanj armed?

8 A. They did, but most of them had hunting guns,

9 with permits. Then also there were people who had

10 pistols, with permits. Then there were also people who

11 worked in the police station who had guns and pistols

12 issued to them by the police station. That is what I

13 know.

14 Q. Did your own family own a rifle or other

15 weapons?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did the villagers keep their rifles until

18 when? Did they keep it until the attack?

19 A. No. They went to negotiate with the Serbs,

20 and they told them that if they surrender their

21 weapons, nobody would touch them. Once they came,

22 these Serbs, and our people took their weapons there

23 and surrendered them to them. They signed some kind of

24 declaration of loyalty, that they would continue to

25 live with the Serbs, and that no one would touch them

Page 1375

1 then, and that is why they handed over their weapons.

2 That's why we waited at home until the last day,

3 because we were so sure of them. We were sure that

4 they would not attack the village.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, time for the break.

6 The Court will rise and have a break until 11.30

7 hours.

8 --- Recess taken at 11.04 a.m.

9 --- On resuming at 11.28 a.m.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution, please.


12 Q. Witness, before the recess you said that

13 weapons were collected from, you said, "our people."

14 Does that mean from the Muslims?

15 A. No. The Muslims surrendered weapons to the

16 Serbs.

17 Q. Yes, that's what I meant. Did they also

18 collect weapons from Serbs, or did Serbs keep their

19 weapons, or did they not have weapons at all?

20 A. They had weapons, and how, but they did not

21 hand them over to anyone.

22 Q. Did you actually observe this handing over of

23 weapons by the Muslims?

24 A. No, I did not observe this, because women

25 were not allowed; our women were not allowed. And

Page 1376

1 actually, we weren't all that interested, either. We

2 were just interested in living in peace, living the way

3 we lived until then. Our wish was that there be no

4 war.

5 Q. How, then, do you know that the Muslims

6 handed over weapons?

7 A. Directly, because I heard about it from the

8 men who had handed them over, our locals from the

9 village who handed over their weapons.

10 Q. You mentioned that they also signed loyalty.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What does that mean exactly?

13 A. That they signed peace with the Serbs, that

14 no one would attack them and that no one would attack

15 us.

16 Q. When did the attack on the village start?

17 A. The attack on the village started exactly on

18 the 3rd of July, 1992, at 20 past 6.00, early in the

19 morning.

20 Q. At that time were there any Muslim soldiers

21 in your village, or close by?

22 A. No. No.

23 Q. Where exactly were you when your village was

24 attacked?

25 A. I was above the village, way up in the woods,

Page 1377

1 in a group with about 50 other people. There were men,

2 women, children, the elderly. That's where we slept:

3 in the woods.

4 Q. Were there any of your family members with

5 you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you tell who? Not the names; just your

8 relationship to them.

9 A. My father, my mother, my brother, and I.

10 Q. How old was your brother at that time?

11 A. 20. He wasn't even 20.

12 Q. Did he have a weapon? Did he wear a uniform?

13 A. No. No, he did not.

14 Q. What happened on that morning, if you

15 describe?

16 A. Early that morning we were all asleep, not

17 even thinking that something like that could happen.

18 All of a sudden, near us, we heard lots of shooting.

19 We all jumped up and fled into the mountains. There

20 were big rocks, so we could not run that fast. They

21 followed us and they were shooting a lot, and they used

22 lots of ammunition as they were shooting at us up

23 there.

24 Q. Was anybody killed?

25 A. Yes. Yes. My mother was killed as we were

Page 1378

1 fleeing; also another man and another woman, a woman

2 who was carrying a 3-year-old child. It fell off her

3 back. So the child fell about 10 or 15 meters, until

4 another woman caught this child. And there were also

5 five or six wounded during this flight.

6 Q. How old was your mother at that time?

7 A. 42.

8 Q. And the other two people who were killed, how

9 old were they?

10 A. That man was also about 42 or 43. And the

11 woman was younger. Perhaps she was about 35 or 36.

12 Q. Did you ever see the body of your mother?

13 A. At the moment when I saw her fall, she was

14 near me, but after that I never saw her again. But

15 this was a slope, so as she fell, she rolled down, she

16 slid down; she and the man who was killed. Although

17 this third person, the woman who was killed, she

18 remained lying on the slope. I saw her while we were

19 in this group. Because we were all sitting there and

20 begging them to stop shooting, because we were saying

21 they'd kill all the children. There were a lot of

22 young children there, so we could not run that hard.

23 So we were begging them to stop shooting and we said

24 that we were surrendering. Then they stopped shooting

25 until they came right up to us, to this group.

Page 1379

1 Q. How can you be sure that your mother was

2 dead? Did anybody else see her body?

3 A. Yes, quite a few women saw her body. I also

4 saw her fall. I saw her hair full of blood. I knew

5 that she was hit in the head.

6 Q. Did anybody of your family see the body?

7 A. My brother did.

8 Q. What did the soldiers do --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


11 Q. What did the soldiers do after you sat down?

12 A. As they came to us, they were yelling,

13 hollering, shouting, "Where's your Alija? Fuck your

14 mothers, you balijas. You're running like goats. Why

15 don't you stop? Why are you running away?"

16 There were seven men with us, and as they

17 were arriving they took the men and started beating

18 them, beating them there with their rifles, wooden

19 sticks, kicking them. One of them also grabbed me by

20 the hair and kicked me, and that's how I fell down, and

21 I stopped where a man was.

22 Q. Those soldiers, were they Serbs?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did they wear uniforms?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1380

1 Q. Could you describe the uniforms?

2 A. Camouflage uniforms which I had never seen

3 until then.

4 Q. Were they armed?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did they have hunting rifles, or what did you

7 see on them?

8 A. They certainly weren't hunting rifles. All

9 of them were automatic rifles. Kalashnikovs,

10 Scorpions, pistols, hand grenades. Zoljas, as they

11 were called. They were all armed.

12 Q. You said that the men were beaten and your

13 hair was pulled. Did you see any injuries on the men?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. Can you tell us what you saw?

16 A. A man who was my age. One of them was

17 hitting him with the rifle butt of his automatic rifle,

18 so it was made of metal, and he was beating him on the

19 head. And this man was bleeding, and he kept saying,

20 "My schoolmate, my schoolmate."

21 His brother was also beaten with a wooden

22 stick and they were also hitting him here. And as they

23 would hit him, his head would just fall like this and

24 he would say, "Who has weapons?" And of course nobody

25 had weapons, and he kept saying that nobody had

Page 1381

1 weapons. And then he would hit him again and then he'd

2 again faint.

3 That went on for about half an hour, this

4 hollering of theirs, until one of them said that they

5 should not do anything if they did not receive orders.

6 That's what they heard over the Motorola, the hand-held

7 radio.

8 Then they were also beating -- they were

9 beating two other men. Then also this young girl, they

10 were hitting her with a rifle butt on the head, and

11 there was blood all over her face because of that.

12 Then they made us go into the woods, through the woods.

13 Q. You mentioned a girl who was also hit. Would

14 you please look at the other sheet you got this morning

15 with the more names on it, and can you have a look if

16 this person is on the list; and if so, would you please

17 say not the name but the number or whatever.

18 A. DB.

19 Q. How many soldiers were involved in this

20 incident?

21 A. I think there were about ten, about ten when

22 they reached us up there. I think there were about ten

23 of them. From there we went downhill to a meadow. As

24 we were getting out of the woods, I saw Gojko Jankovic,

25 Slavo Ivanovic, Drago Zelenovic and Janko Janjic.

Page 1382

1 Kovac was also there, but I recognised him later, only

2 after I had been detained for four months.

3 Q. You mentioned several people. For instance,

4 you said Gojko Jankovic. Did you know him from before?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How did you know him?

7 A. I knew him because I passed every day by the

8 place where he lived. I took the bus to work and back,

9 so he was practically in my neighbourhood.

10 Q. You mentioned Janko Janjic. Did you know him

11 before the war?

12 A. Yes, from before the war. He was some kind

13 of a bandit. Everybody was afraid of him. I

14 personally never wanted to meet him. If he was on one

15 side of the street, then I would cross the street to

16 the other side. I didn't even want to see him. He

17 always made trouble in Foca.

18 Q. You mentioned Slavo Ivanovic, who is dead,

19 and how did you know him?

20 A. Yes. Slavo Ivanovic worked as a taxi driver

21 in Foca, and quite often he would deliver the goods

22 that our villagers bought in Foca, so I knew him

23 personally.

24 Q. You mentioned Dragan Zelenovic. Did you know

25 him before the war?

Page 1383

1 A. Personally, I did not, but I saw him in the

2 village quite a few times when he came to register

3 electricity. He worked for the electric company in

4 Foca and then he came to register who had spent how

5 much electricity.

6 Q. That is, you saw him before the war, but you

7 did not know his name. Do I have --

8 A. Yes. Yes. I did not know who he was, yes.

9 I just didn't know who he was. I didn't know his name.

10 Q. You mentioned Kovac. Which Kovac?

11 A. Radomir Kovac, nicknamed Klanfa.

12 Q. Which nickname? I didn't really understand

13 it?

14 A. Klanfa.

15 Q. Thank you. Did you know him before the war?

16 A. No.

17 Q. How did you learn his name?

18 A. Well, I said, after four months of detention

19 with the Chetniks, I came to know him.

20 Q. Can you describe him?

21 A. Yes, by all means. He was tall, he had a

22 receding hairline, his hair was dark. He always wore a

23 leather jacket.

24 Q. At that time when you saw these men you just

25 mentioned, were they in uniform and were they armed?

Page 1384

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you see who was in charge of the

3 soldiers?

4 A. I was not sure, but I think it was Gojko

5 Jankovic, because everybody called him Major.

6 Q. Did you hear him or did you see him giving

7 orders to other soldiers?

8 A. I did not while he spoke, that they did not

9 act unless they had orders. But when we came down to

10 the meadow I saw that he had a Motorola in his hand,

11 whereas Kovac had a black leather jacket and he had

12 this black thing on his eye, in order to avoid

13 recognition, I imagine.

14 Q. Where were you taken from the meadow?

15 A. Those seven men were taken to one side and we

16 were taken down to the village. There was lots of

17 shooting and also there was lots of noise coming from

18 the houses. As we were reaching the different houses,

19 they were all on fire. They were already burning. All

20 of a sudden they made us lie down by the road. They

21 said that the balijas were attacking. However, they

22 had actually killed and slaughtered the seven men who

23 remained up there.

24 Q. How do you know that?

25 A. Well, I know. Nothing else could have

Page 1385

1 happened. That's what I assumed, that they had killed

2 them. And when I was freed, then my father told me

3 that he found my brother dead, and he also found my

4 mother and these other neighbours. At that moment I

5 was sure that they had been killed. And when I got

6 out, then my father confirmed this. After the forest

7 he came back to the meadow and he found all of them

8 there, killed.

9 Q. Did you ever see -- do you know where they

10 are buried?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Do you know where your mother is buried?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you ever see or hear of any of these

15 seven men again?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Where were you and the other women and

18 children taken?

19 A. We were taken down the village to the place

20 called Mjesaja, or rather the spot called Buk Bijela.

21 The women were barefoot. They hardly had any clothes

22 on. As the shooting started, everybody just jumped out

23 of -- from where they were sleeping, so hardly anybody

24 was properly dressed. When we were brought to Mjesaja,

25 there were lots of military men by the road, whereas

Page 1386

1 others had caught many sheep, and they were sitting

2 there and holding these sheep. The first one that was

3 escorting us was Beban Vasiljevic. He had a

4 machine-gun. He was the first that was taking us down

5 there. I was among the first, and they brought us to a

6 spot called Buk Bijela.

7 Q. On your way to Buk Bijela, you mentioned

8 already that you saw your village burned. Did you see

9 any Serb houses burned?

10 A. No. No, not a single one, for sure.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the

12 usher I would like to show now a photo to the witness.

13 It is the Exhibit 11, photo number 7416. It's the

14 blown-up version we had already here in the courtroom.

15 Q. Witness, would you please explain what you

16 see on this photo.

17 A. I see this place called Buk Bijela.

18 Q. You were taken there, together with the other

19 women?

20 A. Yes. Yes.

21 Q. When you arrived there, where were you put?

22 What happened?

23 A. They brought us here, in front of this

24 motel. Then they lined us up. Beban Vasiljevic lined

25 us up, all of us, women, children, the elderly. We

Page 1387

1 stood there and he put this machine-gun in front

2 of us, so I thought that he would kill everyone

3 then. However, as we stood there for about five

4 minutes, others came and said, "You come, you come,

5 you come." I was taken to one of those

6 prefabricated buildings down there [indicates].

7 That's where I found Gojko Jankovic

8 inside.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Just for the record, the

10 witness points on the last building with the white

11 roof.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Please continue.

14 A. They took me to that building there. That's

15 where Gojko Jankovic already was. And also Dragan

16 Zelenovic and Janko Janjic. They asked me to speak the

17 truth, and they said that if I would not say the truth,

18 I would be gang-raped. They asked me who had weapons,

19 who was arming the people in Trosanj. I said no one,

20 and I said that I didn't know that. And I said that we

21 woman were not allowed to know anything about this.

22 Then he asked me about all the names and

23 surnames of the people who lived in the village, and he

24 wrote all of that down.

25 When they finished that, they took me out of

Page 1388

1 that room. As I was leaving the room, I encountered my

2 uncle. They were taking my uncle. He was all in

3 blood.

4 Q. Let me interrupt you at that point. Did you

5 see who was accompanying you, your uncle, when you

6 encountered him?

7 A. Yes. I saw Zoran Vukovic.

8 Q. Would you please describe Zoran Vukovic.

9 A. Well, he was short, a small man, blond,

10 fair -- fair, fair haired, if I can remember

11 correctly.

12 Q. Can you describe his face?

13 A. No.

14 Q. How do you know that this man has the name

15 Zoran Vukovic?

16 A. I didn't know then, because I had not known

17 him. Again, after the four months of my stay in Foca,

18 Kovac brought him to the apartment, and that's when I

19 found out that he was that man.

20 Q. We are ahead of time in the chronological

21 order, therefore, I would rather discuss this with you

22 later on and we go back to the 3rd of July, 1992.

23 This soldier, Zoran Vukovic, was he the only

24 one who accompanied your uncle?

25 A. No. I'm not sure now whether there was one

Page 1389

1 or two or more of them there as well. I just glanced

2 at my uncle and I went away with my head down, because

3 they took me to this other part of the building.

4 Q. You mentioned that your uncle was -- your

5 uncle's face was bloody. Did he have injuries in his

6 face?

7 A. I cannot remember. I cannot remember. I

8 just saw blood, blood flowing down his face.

9 Q. Where were you taken after you passed your

10 uncle?

11 A. About five meters away, to another room,

12 where an old Chetnik met me. He was 40 or 50 years

13 old, and he pushed me into a room there and made me

14 take my clothes off. And he said that he would be the

15 only one to rape me there.

16 Q. At that time were you frightened?

17 A. Of course I was frightened. I was not just

18 frightened; I was completely in a state of shock.

19 Q. And did this man rape you?

20 A. Yes, he did.

21 Q. Was that the only one who raped you at that

22 time?

23 A. In that hall I just counted up to ten,

24 because that was the order they made. I counted up to

25 10, and I don't know how many there were after that

Page 1390

1 number. There could have been about 20 of them. I

2 don't know.

3 Q. When you say "rape" what exactly do you mean?

4 A. I don't understand your question.

5 Q. You said that this 40 -- this elderly man

6 raped you. What exactly did he do?

7 A. He forced me onto the bed to take my clothes

8 off, and then he raped me, he attacked me and raped me.

9 Q. Does it mean he put his penis into your

10 vagina?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And these other men, did they do the

13 same thing?

14 A. The same thing, yes.

15 Q. Were you conscious all the time when that

16 happened?

17 A. I was conscious up to 10, up to the time I

18 counted 10. Then I lost consciousness, and I know that

19 some of them brought some water to splash over me and

20 that I was all wet from that water when I came to, when

21 I regained consciousness. But that didn't mean

22 anything to them. They continued doing what they were

23 doing. One of them came in and made me take all my

24 clothes off, just to see what I looked like. And he

25 said, "That's a pity for you. You look so beautiful."

Page 1391

1 Q. Did you know any of these men?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you see anybody you knew when that

4 happened?

5 A. (redacted) sat in the hallway,

6 Nedeljko Pavlovic, Veselin, Vujicic, and Radoslav

7 Filipovic. I think his first name was Radoslav,

8 Radoslav Filipovic. They were out there in the hallway

9 sitting there all the time watching what was happening

10 to me. Because I wanted to go to the toilet at one

11 point and Neso just shook his head and didn't do

12 anything.

13 Q. While you were being raped, did you hear

14 anything concerning your uncle?

15 A. While I was conscious I heard shooting, I

16 heard my uncle's screams from all the beating. And at

17 one point I heard one of them saying, "The balija’s

18 escaped." And then there was a burst of gunfire and

19 then everything was quiet and I didn't hear him again.

20 And I knew at that moment for sure that they had killed

21 him.

22 Q. The gang-rape you described, was it painful?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How did this make you feel?

25 A. I felt dead.

Page 1392

1 Q. Where were you taken after this gang-rape?

2 A. While they had all taken their turn, I

3 thought that they had killed all the other women and

4 thrown them into the Drina. But then one of them said,

5 "Hurry up and get dressed. We're going into a bus."

6 I wasn't able to get up or to get my clothes on. So

7 two of them had to help me and take me onto the bus.

8 And when I got into the bus I saw that everybody was in

9 the bus except for one girl. Her mother was crying,

10 standing in front of the bus, and asking them to give

11 them back her child, give her back her child.

12 Q. Would you please look at the sheet and tell

13 me if this person is on the sheet.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Does the name have a number?

16 A. 87.

17 Q. Did you see any other women being led away

18 into huts before you were taken?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Does that mean you were one of the first to

21 be taken?

22 A. I think so, yes.

23 Q. While you told us what had happened, you have

24 occasionally mentioned the word "Chetnik." What is a

25 Chetnik, in your point of view?

Page 1393

1 A. Well, that's what they call themselves. They

2 called themselves that. And the Serbs like you to

3 refer to them as Chetniks. And he says, the Chetnik,

4 if he doesn't smell and is not dirty.

5 Q. But you, did you know the term "Chetnik" from

6 before the war?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And what did it mean to you?

9 A. The word "Chetnik" for me always instilled

10 fear in me, because my grandmother, during the Second

11 World War, experienced a similar situation to the one

12 that I experienced today, and so she told me quite a

13 bit about the Chetniks, so I knew what the Chetniks

14 were and who they were.

15 Q. After your stay in Buk Bijela, where were you

16 taken?

17 A. When we got into the buses, they took us off

18 to Foca. They brought us to the SUP building. The bus

19 stopped in front of the SUP building and we waited

20 there for about half an hour in the bus.

21 Q. Were soldiers on the bus?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you see any policemen dealing with the

24 soldiers on the bus?

25 A. No.

Page 1394

1 Q. Did you see any of the soldiers going into

2 the SUP building while the bus was waiting?

3 A. All of them who were there got off and went

4 into the SUP. Just Janjic Janko, nicknamed Tuta,

5 stayed on in the bus; and Tarzo, another man nicknamed

6 Tarzo. I don't remember his real name and surname.

7 Q. After about half-an-hour waiting time, where

8 were you taken then?

9 A. They took us to the secondary school centre

10 at Aladza in Foca.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the

12 usher, I would like to take Exhibit 11, number 7418, in

13 front of the witness. It's also a blown-up photo.

14 Q. Is this the building you just mentioned, the

15 school, high school?

16 A. Yes, it is.

17 Q. Do you recall where you were taken in the

18 high school, in which room or floor?

19 A. When we entered the secondary school centre,

20 we were first taken down into a room on the ground

21 floor. There were a lot of chairs there and were used

22 for school plays and things like that, and we spent an

23 hour or two there. And then they took us up to the

24 first floor, the last classroom on the first floor.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: For the record, the

Page 1395

1 witness indicated the right side of the building, the

2 last window row on the first floor, not counting the

3 ground floor as the first floor.



6 Q. The classroom, did it face with the windows

7 the road or the backside, or even both?

8 A. Towards the road. Here [indicates], facing

9 the road. I think it was about here [indicates].

10 Q. Yes. Thank you. Did you ever look out of

11 this window?

12 A. We could see the other part of town, which is

13 called Codor Mahala; and the stadium, which was next

14 door; and the Serbian cemetery. You could see that

15 from there.

16 Q. When you looked out, could you see soldiers?

17 A. Yes, we could see them, yes.

18 Q. Many soldiers or just a few?

19 A. Well, they would go by, pass by there.

20 Q. Were soldiers in the school itself?

21 A. No.

22 Q. In this classroom you mentioned, how many

23 persons were in this room?

24 A. Well, there were about 30 to 40 of us there,

25 women and children.

Page 1396

1 Q. Were they all taken at the same day, or did

2 others come later?

3 A. No, not all of them. A group from my village

4 came the following day, and four days later they

5 brought in my grandfather, (redacted).

6 Q. Were there any persons from other villages in

7 your room or next to your room?

8 A. In our classroom there were three. In

9 another classroom, I think some 10 to 15 more people

10 were brought in. I'm not sure of the exact number.

11 About that many.

12 Q. So if you count all together, how were they

13 all together; how many Muslims in the school at that

14 time?

15 A. Approximately 50: women, children, elderly

16 people. And there were three old men.

17 Q. How were the living conditions in the school?

18 A. Terrible. We had some foam mattresses and

19 some army blankets, and they gave us meals three times

20 a day, the leftovers from the army. What the soldiers

21 didn't eat, they would bring that to us by way of food.

22 Q. Were you guarded?

23 A. Well, there were guards, yes, but whether

24 they protected us, I don't think they did -- guarded

25 us.

Page 1397

1 Q. Which uniforms did the guards wear?

2 A. The police uniforms.

3 Q. Could you have left the building at all

4 during your time there? Were you allowed to leave?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Who prevented you from leaving?

7 A. At the beginning, as soon as we got there,

8 they told us that we couldn't go out anywhere and that

9 we weren't allowed to go out anywhere.

10 Q. Who said that?

11 A. Well, I can't remember exactly which one of

12 them. The one that escorted us to the school. And

13 then Mitar Sipcic came, and he worked as a paramedic in

14 the outpatients' department in Brod, and came and

15 introduced himself as Mitar Sipcic and said that he was

16 in charge of us and that he was there to guard us, to

17 protect us, and that nothing would happen to us, that

18 nobody would touch us, and that we shouldn't be afraid

19 of anything.

20 Q. Did he tell you what was going to happen with

21 you?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Were you sexually assaulted while at the high

24 school?

25 A. Yes, I was.

Page 1398

1 Q. Once, or many times?

2 A. Many times, yes.

3 Q. Do you recall when you first were assaulted

4 at the school?

5 A. In the school, Dragan Zelenovic came in,

6 burst in, with his group, and they took us off to the

7 next-door classroom, five or six of us women. And from

8 there, three of us stayed inside and the others were

9 sent outside. So three of us stayed in the classroom.

10 And Zelenovic asked me whether I remember how many

11 people had raped me in Buk Bijela. I said that I

12 counted up to 10 and lost count afterwards.

13 Q. You said that five or six women were taken.

14 Do you recall, was it on the first night or later on?

15 A. I don't remember exactly.

16 Q. When you look at the sheet of paper with all

17 these names, are you able to point out those who were

18 taken with you on that occasion.

19 A. 87, 95, 51. Now, I don't know -- there were

20 two women with the same names and surnames there. I'd

21 like to stress that, because I'm not sure whether it is

22 that number or another number. Then there was 74,

23 number 74, 88.

24 Q. The person you just mentioned that there were

25 two with the same name, the one taken that night, was

Page 1399

1 it your cousin?

2 A. No.

3 Q. This woman who was taken, the woman with the

4 same name, is it -- was it a young woman?

5 A. Yes, it was.

6 Q. You said that three of you ended up in the

7 room, while others were returned, or taken out again.

8 Can you tell me who remained in the room?

9 A. Number 87 remained, number 95, and myself.

10 Q. Do you know what happened to the other women

11 who were taken out on that occasion?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Were you raped in the room?

14 A. Yes, I was.

15 Q. By whom?

16 A. Dragan Zelenovic and another one; I don't

17 know his name.

18 Q. Was 95?

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


21 Q. Was 95 raped, and if, so by whom; do you

22 know?

23 A. Janjic Janko.

24 Q. Was 87 raped; and if so, by whom?

25 A. Yes, she was raped, but I don't know who

Page 1400

1 raped her. I don't know that. I didn't know that man.

2 Q. How do you know that the two others were

3 raped? You were in the same room when that occurred?

4 A. In the same room at the same time. All three

5 of us were there watching each other, what they were

6 doing to us. Zelja forced number 95 at gun point to

7 take her clothes off.

8 Q. But I understood that he did not rape her at

9 the end, but Tuta.

10 A. He didn't rape her, no; Tuta raped her. But

11 he forced her to take her clothes off, because she

12 didn't want to. And then he cocked his gun at her and

13 said that unless she took her clothes off immediately,

14 he would kill her.

15 Q. How long did you stay at the high school all

16 together?

17 A. All together about 15 days we stayed at the

18 school centre, until Mitar Sipcic arrived and came into

19 the classroom and said that we would have to make some

20 sort of order, get the hall in some sort of order,

21 because television Belgrade was coming and the S

22 channel, television channel from Pale to film how they

23 were looking after us there and feeding us there and

24 how they had saved us and how we were having a nice

25 time there, and that nobody would do this for us. But

Page 1401

1 we knew -- we were the only ones to know what it was

2 really like for us there.

3 Q. And when this journalist came, did any one of

4 you speak to them and tell them what actually was going

5 on?

6 A. No, nobody said what was actually going on.

7 Q. Why not?

8 A. Nobody talked to the journalist directly.

9 Well, what could we say? I didn't even look to see who

10 had come or who had left the room. The world should

11 see, to look in our eyes. How can I say? Because they

12 had killed my mother before that, they had killed my

13 brother. And up to that day I had been raped by almost

14 50 of them. So how could I say anything, to look them

15 in the eyes and say that I was fine? I couldn't. I

16 couldn't look them in the eyes. I wasn't watching. I

17 didn't want to see who was coming in, who was going

18 out. And on one occasion I started bleeding from the

19 nose, so profusely that nobody could stop it from all

20 the pressure. Everybody thought that I would surely

21 die. And whenever they would bring me back from

22 anywhere from taking me out, I would just tear my hair

23 and say, "Oh, what are they doing to us?"

24 Q. How often all together were you taken out

25 while at the high school?

Page 1402

1 A. Well, I can say practically every night.

2 During those 15 days. Perhaps there was just two

3 nights that I was not taken out, but all the other

4 nights, every night.

5 Q. And can you tell us how that usually went,

6 what usually happened?

7 A. Well, usually what happened was that Dragan

8 Zelenovic would usually come into the hall, and when he

9 came in, there was an old man there as he came in

10 through the door, and he would kick him in the face,

11 his nose and head, and he would threaten him. He said,

12 "Balija, you escaped from up there, but you are not

13 going to leave this place alive." And then the man

14 would start moaning and screaming and the children

15 would start screaming out of fear. And then he would

16 just point his finger at me and to number 87 and -- and

17 then he would say -- tell us to go out and go and clean

18 apartments. But when we got to the apartment, there

19 would be at least five or six of them waiting for us

20 there. And then they would sit around, lounge around,

21 eating and drinking, and then they would have their go

22 at us one by one and then send us back to the school

23 half dead.

24 Q. You mentioned yourself and you mentioned 87

25 as being taken out and raped. Can you also look at the

Page 1403

1 list again and tell me who else from the list was taken

2 out in this same manner?

3 A. Number 50, number 95, number 90, number 48,

4 number 74, number 88.

5 Q. We are talking about the high school, this

6 is. This you just pointed out were taken out of the

7 high school, from the classroom; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You mentioned Dragan Zelenovic who took you

10 out, and 87. Did you recognise any other soldiers who

11 did take women out from the high school?

12 A. In the secondary school centre I was mostly

13 taken out by Dragan Zelenovic, and Dragan Stankovic,

14 nicknamed Dragic.

15 Q. Did you see how the other women were taken

16 away, and did you recognise any of the soldiers who did

17 that?

18 A. I don't know, because mostly I would be taken

19 out first.

20 Q. How, then, do you know that the other women

21 that you pointed out right a minute ago were taken out

22 for rape as well?

23 A. Well, while -- when I got to the hall, and

24 they would ask me where I had been and how I felt, and

25 then they would say, for example, number 87, she would

Page 1404

1 say I was there too, and number 51 would say, "I was

2 taken there too," so I knew practically everything

3 about who went, which one went and which one didn't.

4 Q. Whom do you mean by "they asked" when you

5 came to the hall? What do you refer to?

6 A. Well, the women and the girls who were in the

7 secondary school centre.

8 Q. You mentioned that you were taken to various

9 other places. Could you name some of these places?

10 A. With Dragan Zelenovic we were on several

11 occasions in -- well, I don't know whether it was his

12 apartment. I don't think it was his apartment. I

13 think it was an apartment that belonged to a Bosniak.

14 But it was on the third floor of the Brena building, I

15 think. And he would take us to a house at Gornje Polje

16 as well. I don't remember the other places, whether

17 there were any other apartments.

18 Q. While you were taken out, you were always

19 raped?

20 A. Yes, I was.

21 Q. Were you ever beaten while this occurred?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you know if any other women were beaten or

24 otherwise injured?

25 A. No, I don't think so.

Page 1405

1 Q. Do you remember that you ever saw any scars

2 on women?

3 A. No. While we were staying at the high school

4 centre, no.

5 Q. Later on?

6 A. Later, yes.

7 Q. Then we come to this later.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When were you moved from the high school, and

10 to which other place?

11 A. After about 15 days we were transferred to

12 Partizan. There was this group of us women who were

13 put into a truck and we were told that we were being

14 taken to another place from there, and they brought us

15 to Partizan, in front of Partizan. They took us into

16 Partizan and told us that we had to clean up because

17 there was lots of garbage and it was very dirty, and

18 then five or six of us women, we cleaned up. And then

19 the others came in and we all remained there.

20 Q. Where is Partizan situated in the town of

21 Foca?

22 A. Partizan is just above the SUP, above the

23 municipality too, about 200 or 300 meters away from the

24 SUP building.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the

Page 1406

1 usher, I would like to show the witness the photo

2 Exhibit 11, number 7302.

3 Q. Is this Partizan?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you point out where exactly you stayed in

6 the building?

7 A. The steps and the entrance can be seen here

8 very well [indicates]. And this is where we stayed, in

9 this building, all of us together.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: For the record, the

11 witness is pointing at a door in the main building

12 shown, and the windows to the right side of this door.


14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: May the usher please

15 come to me, and I want to show the photo, same exhibit,

16 but photo 7295. This time it's not a blown-up version;

17 it's the usual version which is in the binders that

18 everybody has.

19 Q. Would you please point out Partizan.

20 A. I think it's this over here [indicates].

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing

22 at the building on the right side.

23 Q. This big white building below, what is this?

24 A. The SUP, the SUP building. I remember just

25 now. The municipality is on the other side, here, the

Page 1407

1 SUP, and then this up here is Partizan [indicates].

2 Q. Would you please point at the municipal

3 building?

4 A. Here [indicates].

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing

6 at the building on the left side.

7 A. The left side, yes.

8 Q. How were the living conditions in Partizan?

9 A. Dreadful. When we arrived in Partizan, when

10 we cleaned up, we just had these little small plastic

11 gym mats. I imagine that people, sportsmen, trained

12 using that before. And then there was nothing else,

13 not even blankets. So whoever had a sweater would cover

14 her child with it, and whoever did not, did not. That's

15 how we slept.

16 Q. And how was the food?

17 A. Dreadful. One morning they'd bring us only

18 tea and bread, and another morning they'd bring us big

19 glass jars, and they'd put sour macaroni in it or sour

20 soup, leftovers from the military. They'd collect that

21 and bring it to us and then we'd eat with our hands

22 from these glass jars. The children were hungry, we

23 were hungry. Whatever they brought us, we ate up to a

24 point.

25 Q. How were the sanitary conditions?

Page 1408

1 A. Dreadful. First of all, we would make a

2 small fire out in front and then we would heat water in

3 a bottle so that we could wash up a bit, so that we

4 would not get lice hopefully.

5 Q. Were there any guards?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How many, and were they police guards or were

8 they soldiers?

9 A. There were usually two in each shift, two in

10 the morning, two in the afternoon, and two at night.

11 They were not soldiers and they were not policemen;

12 they were like a reserve police force or something. I

13 don't know what they called it. A reserve force.

14 Mostly older men who had already retired.

15 Q. Did they wear uniforms, and were they armed?

16 A. Yes, they were armed and they wore uniforms,

17 like police uniforms.

18 Q. Did this guard protect you?

19 A. Two did. When it was their shift, no one was

20 allowed to go into the hall. While the others would --

21 you see, this place here, it says scouts club. It was

22 some kind of a shed. And when these other men would

23 come to take us away, these guards would hide in that

24 shed so that they would not even see them.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Would you please show

Page 1409

1 this photo to the witness.

2 Q. Were you referring to this small building

3 attached to the bigger building, and the word you said,

4 is that written next to the door?

5 A. Yes. Yes, that's it. That's it, the scouts

6 club.

7 Q. Thank you. How long did you stay in the

8 hall -- in Partizan?

9 A. Well, until the 2nd of August, 1992.

10 Q. How come you remember that date so well?

11 A. Well, I remember it well because that night

12 they mined the famous Aladza mosque, which was about

13 450 years old. It was in Foca. I was about 200 meters

14 away from the mosque.

15 Q. We come to this 2nd of August later, but

16 let's speak about what happened in Partizan first.

17 Were you sexually assaulted while in Partizan?

18 A. Not directly in the hall, but they came every

19 night and they would take us away to apartments.

20 Q. When you say "they," whom do you mean?

21 A. The Serbs, the Chetniks.

22 Q. Do you refer to soldiers or to civilians?

23 A. I'm referring to soldiers, yes.

24 Q. Did, for instance, Dragan Zelenovic, whom you

25 mentioned before, come to this school and take out

Page 1410

1 women?

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel --

3 A. While I was there, no.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, you said "to this

5 school." Do you mean school or the sports hall?

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The Partizan. I mean

7 Partizan.

8 Q. Did you ever see Dragan Zelenovic in

9 Partizan?

10 A. No, I did not.

11 Q. The soldiers who came to Partizan, were they

12 the same soldiers who came to the high school or were

13 they different?

14 A. Well, some were the same and some were

15 others.

16 Q. What did the soldiers, when they came, what

17 did they do?

18 A. Well, they'd mostly come during the night,

19 and we did not have any light in that hallway. They

20 would yell, they would scream. They had written all

21 our names down before that, so they would call out our

22 names. So if you were there, you'd have to get up and

23 follow them.

24 Q. And when you were taken out to different

25 places, what happened in these places? Was it the same

Page 1411

1 that happened in the high school?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the witness say what

4 happened? Because this is a different place. Yes.


6 Q. What did happen?

7 A. I said it. Every night they would come and

8 take women to apartments. One night Dragomir Kunarac,

9 nicknamed Zaga, barged into the hall, and his great

10 friend, nicknamed Gaga -- I don't know his real name --

11 and also the Montenegrin Bane, they took me and DB

12 out. They said that we had to go with them and prepare

13 dinner for them and clean up an apartment. From there,

14 we got out and we got into a car. I think it was a red

15 Lada Niva, and they took us to Aladza, to a Muslim

16 house, where there were quite a few Serbs already who

17 were waiting.

18 Later more of them came to this house. They

19 brought some meat from the hotel for them to eat and

20 they offered it to us as well. However, since we were

21 so frightened and because of everything that was

22 happening to us, we couldn't even eat.

23 Gaga forced me into a room. He said,

24 "There's only Zuca, a young man of 16, a young boy of

25 16. He's still a virgin," and I should give him

Page 1412

1 pleasure by going to this room with him. However, Zuca

2 did not go into this room at all. Who got into the

3 room first, I can't remember, whereas Zaga took DB to

4 another room. He locked the door to that room and he

5 said, "One of you will really be in trouble." He left

6 me over there. And until they all had their fill,

7 until about 2.00 at night, the rape did not stop.

8 Q. You said that Zaga took DB into a room and he

9 said, "One of you --" I don't have the transcript

10 now. I have to look first. Can you repeat what you

11 said?

12 A. He said, "One of you will really be in

13 trouble tonight." I used a verb that means being in

14 trouble, getting in trouble.

15 Q. Did you hear him say that?

16 A. No.

17 Q. How do you know that, then?

18 A. Well, that's what DB told me later. When we

19 left, she told me what he had said.

20 Q. Can you describe the house you are talking

21 about?

22 A. Well, it's just an ordinary house. You go

23 upstairs, and then in the basement there was some kind

24 of a tailor's shop. They would take us upstairs and

25 downstairs, where we were to be raped. I saw that

Page 1413

1 there were lots of fabrics there, that someone was

2 cutting these fabrics and sewing something, obviously.

3 There were three rooms upstairs: a kitchen, a

4 bathroom, a hall.

5 Q. And where was this house situated?

6 A. In Aladza, in a part of Foca called Aladza;

7 not far away from the high school, but on the

8 right-hand side when you go from town.

9 Q. And you said already it's about 200 meters

10 away from the mosque.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you recall when you were taken there at

13 that time?

14 A. I do not recall the exact date. I know it

15 was about five or six days after I was brought to

16 Partizan. The first time I was returned was when Zaga

17 and Gaga barged into Partizan. That's when I was

18 returned. Who they took out, I don't know. This other

19 time they came, they took away myself and DB.

20 Q. Does it mean they --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


23 Q. Does it mean they came before they took you

24 to the house for the first time, you saw them before

25 that?

Page 1414

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. How many days before you were taken by them

3 yourself?

4 A. Well, I think a day or two before.

5 Q. You mentioned that you and DB were taken by

6 this Zaga and Gaga. Can you describe this person Gaga?

7 A. Well, that person had grey hair. He might

8 have been about 45. He was short, kind of fat. He's

9 also a Montenegrin.

10 Q. You say "also." Do you mean -- what do you

11 want to say with this "also"? Does that mean Zaga is a

12 Montenegrin?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Who, then, do you refer to?

15 A. Well, the others, all the others who were in

16 that house. Most of them were Montenegrin, those who

17 raped me that night.

18 Q. Do you recall names of these men?

19 A. Of course.

20 Q. Please tell us the names you recall.

21 A. Well, I remember all of them. Perhaps I

22 should skip some of them, because, after all, it's been

23 eight years. Jure Radovic was from Foca; Durko

24 Dubljevic, a Montenegrin; Ranko Radulovic, a

25 Montenegrin; Tolja; Bane. Those are nicknames, because

Page 1415

1 I don't know their real names. Scepo, Puko, Tolja,

2 Miga. I can't remember all of them.

3 There was one who had a wound in the

4 stomach. He had a bandage on his stomach, and they

5 made me give him pleasure too, because he could not

6 rape me because he had been wounded. And he would not

7 allow it.

8 Q. These persons you mentioned, were they all

9 soldiers?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And they were all in that house on that day

12 when you were taken there for the first time?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You said that you had to give them pleasure.

15 What do you mean by this?

16 A. Well, I mean -- I cannot express myself.

17 Q. Did you have to put their penis in your

18 mouth?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What else did they do?

21 A. When they would come in one by one and take

22 their turns on me, then they would get in all at the

23 same time. One was on me, the other one was behind me,

24 and the third one would put it in my mouth, and others

25 were putting their things into my hands in order to

Page 1416

1 give pleasure, as they would say. And then they were

2 all spilling their semen all over me and wiping it all

3 over me. And Bane was the last.

4 I asked Tolja to take me out to the bathroom

5 so that I could have a drink of water. I could not

6 catch my breath. He took me to the bathroom and he

7 also brought in a hand grenade, and he said, "Please,

8 if they do anything else to you, if they want to cut

9 you up, activate this. You will be gone, but quite a

10 few of them will be gone too."

11 I did not dare take this hand grenade from

12 him, because I thought that they were trying to plant

13 it on me so that they would slit my throat. Bane

14 held a knife in his hands and asked me, "Which breast

15 of yours do you like better?" And this Tolja stood

16 above and said, "Please don't do anything to her.

17 She's such a wonderful girl."

18 One of them raped me there, and then he let

19 me go when Zaga walked into the room and said that we

20 should get out of there. I got dressed and left the

21 room. DB stood in the hallway. And he drove us to

22 Partizan again.

23 When I arrived there, for three days I could

24 not walk, I could not stand on my feet. I was hiding

25 by my granny. When they would come during the night, I

Page 1417

1 would lie down, my grandma would lie over me, over

2 there in Partizan, and I would hide that way, because I

3 could not take it anymore.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, lunch break.


6 JUDGE MUMBA: We shall adjourn and continue

7 this afternoon at 1430 hours.

8 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.


















Page 1418

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Good afternoon.

3 Examination-in-chief is continuing by the Prosecution.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Witness, you have just described a gang-rape

6 that you experienced in a house in the Aladza

7 neighbourhood. Do you recall in which room this took

8 place?

9 A. In the bedroom.

10 Q. Was there only one bedroom in this house?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In which room was DB at that time?

13 A. In the room next to mine.

14 Q. You mentioned that after some time, that is,

15 at the end, Zaga came into the room.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. At that time, were you dressed or naked?

18 A. Naked.

19 Q. At that time were you raped?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. By whom?

22 A. Bane, the Montenegrin.

23 Q. Did Zaga see that happen?

24 A. Yes, he did.

25 Q. Did he in any way comment on that, what he

Page 1419

1 saw?

2 A. No. He just said that I was to hurry up and

3 put my clothes on so that we could leave.

4 Q. How did you get back to Partizan?

5 A. He took us in the same car.

6 Q. Do you recall what car it was?

7 A. It was a Niva Lada, a red one.

8 Q. Do you recall how long this -- how long you

9 were at the house all together on that same evening?

10 A. I think it was from 7.00 in the evening to

11 1.00 or 2.00 a.m.

12 Q. And do you recall how long this gang-rape

13 lasted?

14 A. It lasted for about -- that is to say, the

15 whole time, except for half an hour while they were

16 sitting around and drinking and eating.

17 Q. Do you know what happened to DB while you

18 were gang-raped?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. These soldiers, you named to us the nicknames

21 and the full names, did they all belong to a group of

22 soldiers?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did that group have a name?

25 A. I don't know. All I know is that their

Page 1420

1 leader was Dragoljub Kunarac, Zaga.

2 Q. How do you know that he was the leader of

3 this group?

4 A. Because he led everybody. Everything that

5 happened he would be the first. He came to Partizan

6 and took us away. He brought us back. He came to

7 Partizan and left us there. And that kind of thing.

8 Q. Did you ever hear soldiers address him as

9 leader?

10 A. I can't remember.

11 Q. How did you learn his name, I mean Zaga?

12 A. Well, at the beginning, the first time we

13 were there, we didn't actually realise that his

14 nickname was Zaga. But then when we went back to

15 Partizan, they asked us who we had been with, and we

16 said Motorka. Motorka, Zaga is the same name, it means

17 the same. And when he took us away again, we had

18 already learnt his name and surname and his nickname.

19 Q. Did you hear his soldiers address him as Zaga

20 or Kunarac?

21 A. Zaga.

22 Q. How, then, did you learn his last name?

23 A. Well, I don't really remember.

24 Q. How did you learn the nicknames of the other

25 soldiers and the other names?

Page 1421

1 A. Well, that's how they called each other.

2 They referred to each other with those names, so I

3 heard that and so I knew which one was which. And many

4 of them would introduce themselves to us, tell us what

5 their names were and who they were. And many asked us

6 whether we would go to Niksic, to Montenegro with them.

7 Q. Do you recall who told you for the first time

8 that his nickname was Zaga?

9 A. No, I don't remember.

10 Q. Can you describe this person?

11 A. He was tall, quite slim, ugly. He had sort

12 of curly hair. I know that when he met him, I didn't

13 look at him. He looked so frightening.

14 Q. Did you know him before the war?

15 A. Never heard of him.

16 Q. The person you just described to me, this

17 Zaga, would you please look through this courtroom and

18 tell me if you see him in this courtroom.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you please point out the person to me by

21 telling where he is sitting and what he is wearing.

22 A. He's sitting at the lower end from me. He

23 has a dark suit on.

24 Q. Can you describe the colour of his tie?

25 A. Well, sort of lilac, violet, I think.

Page 1422

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: For the record, the

2 witness is pointing at the accused Dragoljub Kunarac.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.


5 Q. Witness, you described also a person who was

6 present when you were arrested on the 3rd of July,

7 1992, and you called him Klanfa, Radomir Kovac. Would

8 you please look through this room and tell me if he is

9 sitting here in this room.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you tell me where he is sitting?

12 A. He's the second one in line from Kunarac,

13 Zaga.

14 Q. What is he wearing?

15 A. Well, I can't see very well from the

16 computer. May I get up and have a better look? He's

17 wearing a blue shirt, a grey suit. I can't see his

18 tie.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: For the record, Your

20 Honours, witness is pointing at the accused, Radomir

21 Kovac.



24 Q. Witness, you described a man you saw with

25 your uncle in Buk Bijela, and you called him Zoran

Page 1423

1 Vukovic. Do you see this man in this room here?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. Can you tell me where he is sitting?

4 A. He's the third man, next to the other two.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, the

6 witness is pointing at the accused, Zoran Vukovic.



9 Q. Can you tell me how often you were taken to

10 the house in the Aladza neighbourhood?

11 A. Twice.

12 Q. You have already described the first time.

13 Can you tell me when you were taken there the second

14 time?

15 A. It was a few days later. Dragoljub Kunarac,

16 Dragan, had sent a woman journalist, allegedly she was

17 a journalist from the S channel, from Pale. He sent

18 her over to the Partizan and he told her to introduce

19 herself as a journalist from television Sarajevo. So

20 she came to the Partizan Sports Hall and she introduced

21 herself as being a journalist from television

22 Sarajevo. And she asked the woman to tell her what

23 happened to them during the day. I just got up and

24 said, "Is it possible that a journalist could come here

25 who was from radio Sarajevo?" And she went back on her

Page 1424

1 words and she said, "I'm not a journalist from Radio

2 Sarajevo. I'm a journalist from the S channel, from

3 Pale." And so I said, "Well, why don't you say so?"

4 Because I knew very well that it was impossible for a

5 Radio Sarajevo journalist to get there.

6 And then she began questioning the women

7 about what had happened to them. And I was lying down

8 on one of these sponge mats with a small child of

9 three. And she went up to me and asked me what they

10 had done to me personally. And I said that they did

11 everything to me, but they didn't beat me. And I knew

12 that Zaga had done all this, that Zaga had sent her to

13 question us so that he could make even more problems

14 for us afterwards.

15 Q. How do you know? From which facts do you

16 think that it was Zaga who sent her there?

17 A. Well, after her arrival and after talking to

18 us in Partizan, this same Zaga came again and his

19 colleague Gaga, they both came. And when he came at

20 the entrance, he said, "Those girls who can talk so

21 well, they can come out. I'm not going to address them

22 by name, but you can come out." And we knew who he

23 meant, so we went out. And then he took us off once

24 again to the same house at Aladza.

25 Q. Can you look at your list again and tell me

Page 1425

1 who was taken on that location together with you?

2 A. Yes. DB, number 87, number 50, and myself.

3 Q. Do you recall how you were taken to the house

4 on this occasion?

5 A. They took us off in a car. I just can't

6 remember exactly what make the car was.

7 Q. Do you recall what day and what time of the

8 day it was when you were taken there.

9 A. It was the 2nd of August, 1992, and it was

10 already dark. Perhaps it was 7.00 or 8.00 p.m. That

11 was the time they would usually come into the Partizan.

12 Q. And on that occasion were you raped again?

13 A. Yes, I was.

14 Q. Would you please describe the details.

15 A. As I said, Zaga and Gaga brought us to the

16 house at Aladza and they left us there to their group

17 of Chetniks, Montenegrins. When we went into the room,

18 there were three other girls there. At first I didn't

19 know who they were or where they were from, but talking

20 to them, we learnt that they had come from Gacko and

21 that they had all been caught in Kalinovik and were

22 held prisoner in the school building there. And then

23 Zaga and his Montenegrins had brought them down there,

24 to the house.

25 Q. If you look again at the list in front of

Page 1426

1 you, could you name those girls you just mentioned by

2 their numbers or whatever?

3 A. From what I can see here, only one of those

4 girls is on the list here, and I came to know her well

5 afterwards. She was number 190.

6 Q. Without naming -- giving the name, do you

7 know the name of the other two girls from Gacko?

8 A. One of them -- I think I know the name of one

9 of them, but I never learnt the name of the other girl,

10 because they took her away before I was able to learn

11 anything about her.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Would the usher please

13 give the witness a piece of paper so that she can write

14 down the name.

15 [Witness complies]


17 Q. Was any of the --

18 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be marked

19 Prosecution Exhibit 190.


21 Q. Did you see on that night, did you see any

22 pregnant women present?

23 A. Yes. That was the one that I just

24 described. She was 8 months pregnant, yes.

25 Q. Besides the three girls you mentioned, did

Page 1427

1 you see any other women at that night at that very

2 house?

3 A. Apart from the four of us and those three who

4 were already there, I didn't see any other ones, no.

5 Q. You said that you were raped at that house.

6 Can you please tell me by whom you were raped and how

7 often?

8 A. During the entire night that I spent there,

9 Durko Dubljevic raped me. He was a Montenegrin.

10 Q. Anybody else in addition to him?

11 A. Yes. There was Kontic, nicknamed Konta, and

12 Ranko Radulovic, also a Montenegrin. Both of them, in

13 fact.

14 Q. In which way were you raped? What did they

15 do?

16 A. Durko Dubvic shut me up in a room with him.

17 He wouldn't let anybody else enter except for him. And

18 he wouldn't let me go the whole night. Every ten

19 minutes he was on me and raped me.

20 Q. Did he rape you vaginally?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Anally?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Orally?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1428

1 Q. The other two persons you mentioned, when did

2 they rape you?

3 A. In the morning, at dawn, early morning.

4 Q. Did they rape you together at the same time

5 or one after the other?

6 A. One after the other. And Gaga as well.

7 Q. When did Gaga rape you?

8 A. In the morning.

9 Q. When you say "morning," was it already light

10 or could you even say what time it was?

11 A. Well, I can't tell you the exact time,

12 because I didn't have a watch with me, but it was

13 daylight, yes. It was in the first half of the day.

14 Q. Did you observe any other girl being raped at

15 that night at that same house?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What did you see?

18 A. I saw number 87 in the car -- not in the

19 house, but in the car. Bane raped her.

20 Q. Does that mean he raped her in that car?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. On the way when you were taken there to the

23 house, or when?

24 A. No. No. That night, while we were in the

25 house, he took her off into the car and raped her in

Page 1429

1 the car.

2 Q. What exactly did you see? Did you see that

3 he raped her in the car or did you only see that he

4 took her away in the car?

5 A. No. I saw that she was in the car with him,

6 because Gaga first made me go down to the basement.

7 And going down the staircase, I saw that number 87 was

8 in the car with Bane. And afterwards I heard from her that

9 she had been raped in the car.

10 Q. You mentioned Gaga. Does that mean that this

11 incident took place in the morning?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you see what happened to the girls from

14 Gacko?

15 A. They had been taken -- that is, Gica

16 Vasiljevic from Brod came that night and took away one

17 of the girls, the girl whose name I don't know, but he

18 also took number 50 off, girl number 50 off. And so in

19 the house there was DB, number 87, number 190, and

20 myself. We stayed on in the house. So that night,

21 while we were sitting in the room, it was 20 to 12.00

22 exactly, 20 to midnight. They mined the Aladza

23 dzamija, all of it.

24 Because the explosion and the pressure --

25 from the pressure and the explosion, all the glass in

Page 1430

1 the house broke and the walls did, and the Montenegrins

2 began to swear and say why didn't they inform them that

3 they were going to mine the mosque? Why hadn't they

4 let them know beforehand? Because bane was cut by the

5 shattered glass and then they all jumped up and started

6 shooting out the window and swore and cursed their

7 Serbian mothers for not having warned them that there

8 was going to be an explosion.

9 Q. How can you be so sure about the time when

10 this explosion took place?

11 A. Because I looked at the watch, or clock. I

12 was interested.

13 Q. You mentioned that number 50 and this

14 pregnant girl was taken away by Gica. Do you recall

15 when that was? Was it in the beginning?

16 A. No. No. The one that was pregnant remained

17 there, but the one whom I didn't know, the third one,

18 was taken off by Gica.

19 Q. And when? Was it in the beginning when you

20 arrived or later on in the night?

21 A. During the night. Because we were still all

22 there when the mosque was mined. We were all still in

23 the house.

24 Q. Did you observe Zaga during that night, after

25 he took you there?

Page 1431

1 A. No.

2 Q. When you arrived at that house, where did you

3 go exactly? Into which room?

4 A. Into the kitchen. They called it the

5 kitchen. Opposite the bedroom.

6 Q. While you were in the kitchen, could you see

7 what happened in the other rooms?

8 A. No.

9 Q. When you yourself were raped, in which room

10 did that happen? Was that the same room where the

11 gang-rape occurred?

12 A. No. In another room, on the sofa.

13 Q. While you were in this room, could you see

14 what happened in the other rooms?

15 A. No.

16 Q. What happened the next morning?

17 A. The next morning Dragan Stankovic, Dragec

18 came, and Stjepo, I think it was Miga, they collected

19 the four of us up and took us off from the house in a

20 Fiat car. And outside there were a lot of soldiers,

21 and there was Pero Elez and Zaga and Gaga. And when

22 they saw us getting into the car with these three, they

23 forced them to take us back into the house. So we went

24 back into the house.

25 And then Zaga told us that we were going to

Page 1432

1 Miljevina, because we had the gift of the gab and then

2 we could face the journalists and if anybody was

3 telling lies, they would nail us to a raft and send us

4 downstream down the Drina, and that the people from

5 Perovi have penises down to their knees and that they

6 are even worse than the people from Foca.

7 Q. You mentioned a certain Pero Elez. Who's

8 that?

9 A. A Chetnik.

10 Q. How do you know his name?

11 A. Well, I know his name because I got to know

12 him well later on, because I spent three months in his

13 house.

14 Q. Do you recall how, in which car Zaga took you

15 to Miljevina?

16 A. I know that it was an old car. I think it

17 might have been the one that they used to refer to as

18 "Pezeac" where I come from, or perhaps it was a Lada.

19 I don't know, but it was a very old car. That's all I

20 remember.

21 Q. Who was in the car? I mean the girls and the

22 men.

23 A. Out of the men it was only Zaga who was

24 taking us there. As for the girls, it was me, DB, and

25 number 87 and number 190.

Page 1433

1 Q. Where were you taken in Miljevina?

2 A. First when they took us to Miljevina, they

3 brought us in front of a restaurant. There were lots

4 of soldiers sitting out there. They were eating and

5 drinking. And then they made us sit there too, eat and

6 drink. However, none of us ate, because we could not

7 eat, really. Before that Zaga had scared us so much

8 that I couldn't catch my breath, I couldn't breathe, let

9 alone eat. We were just waiting for this woman

10 journalist to come, the one he mentioned, and to face

11 her, to see whether we had lied or -- and then we were

12 waiting for them to nail us to this raft and send us

13 downstream, downstream the Drina River. That's what I

14 was anticipating.

15 Then they started saying all sorts of things

16 to us, all of them over there. Then one of them said,

17 "Can't you see that this one's finished with, done

18 with? Take her out. Let me kill her. Nothing will

19 come out of her." I didn't dare look. Then Pero Elez

20 made Misko Savic, a Montenegrin, take us to the house

21 of Nusret Karaman, in Miljevina.

22 Q. The girl who was spoken to and was mentioned

23 as being finished, was it you who he meant?

24 A. Yes.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the

Page 1434

1 usher, I would like to show two photos to the witness.

2 It's Exhibit 11, photograph 7359 and 358. Again, they

3 are blow-up versions of the photos and the binders.

4 Q. The house you see on this photo -- usher,

5 what number is it now? Is it 59 or 58?

6 MR. RYNEVELD: It's 55.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Sorry. Then I have made

8 a mistake. It's 55, not 50 -- not 58 or 9. 55 first,

9 please.

10 Q. What do you see on this photo?

11 A. I see the house that I was in.

12 Q. Karaman's House?

13 A. Yes.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Usher, would you now

15 show her the other photo. And please check the

16 number. It seems to be that I'm mistaken. I did not

17 have my glasses on obviously. Thank you.

18 Q. Is this the very house?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. Karaman's House, how did you know

21 the name of this house?

22 A. After a three-month stay, I had to find out.

23 Q. But who told you?

24 A. Well, I was told by the brother of this

25 Karaman woman, because he had a house of his own not

Page 1435

1 far away from the Karaman house, and he stayed there

2 with his family. The Serbs guarded him and made him

3 walk in front of their trucks. So if there were a mine

4 or something, he would be the first one to step on it.

5 So he brought us quite a bit of food and things like

6 that.

7 Q. When you arrived at that house, who was in

8 the house?

9 A. When we arrived, we saw two girls in the

10 house. I think it was Karaman's daughter and another

11 girl. I did not know them personally, but I heard from

12 DB and 87 later that they were their school mates. We

13 saw Zaga at the entrance of the house, and then Zaga

14 took these two girls somewhere else. Where he took

15 them, I have no idea.

16 Q. Were there soldiers in the house besides

17 Zaga?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Would you please tell us who was there.

20 A. Radovan Stankovic, Rasa, Nedza Samardzic and

21 Nikola Brcic, nicknamed Rodjo in the house, and there

22 was also a girl from Kalinovik. I don't have her here

23 listed with these numbers.

24 Q. How long did you stay in the house?

25 A. Three months.

Page 1436

1 Q. During this time in the house, were you

2 sexually assaulted?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you tell us about it?

5 A. First of all, this chief commander of theirs,

6 as they called him, Pero Elez, nicknamed Gingilo, his

7 objective was to be the first to rape. Regardless of

8 who was brought to the house, a minor or anyone, he had

9 to be the first one to rape her, especially minors,

10 young girls. Since 87 and I were so exhausted from our

11 previous stay in Foca, he said to us that he would be

12 the only one who would be with us, that he would keep

13 us for him and that no one else would rape us except

14 for him, and that he would be the only one who would be

15 with us, he, Pero Elez. However, he just said that.

16 Everything else was there too.

17 Q. Were you raped by Pero Elez?

18 A. On several occasions, yes. And together with

19 87, in the same bed.

20 Q. Were you also raped by other soldiers while

21 at that house?

22 A. Yes. First when we got into the house, they

23 made us go upstairs. There was a room upstairs that

24 they forced us into, and then they made us clean

25 another room and put sponge mats on the floor where the

Page 1437

1 four of us could sleep. When we cleaned this up,

2 Nikola Brcic came, Rodjo, and he made me go into the

3 room that had already been prepared and he made me take

4 off my clothes, and that's where he raped me. He was

5 the first to do so.

6 Q. Were you raped by others as well? You have

7 now mentioned two.

8 A. Yes. Nedza Samardzic, Zoran Samardzic, Misko

9 Savic. They brought in quite a few from Montenegro

10 whom I did not know, because they brought them beer

11 from Montenegro, because there was no beer in Foca, and

12 from Miljevina they took away coal. They took coal to

13 Montenegro. So then Pero would send them to us in the

14 house. Then we'd have to cook for them, cook dinner

15 for them, serve them, until they got drunk, and then

16 they would choose which one would go with which one of

17 them to what room.

18 Q. Besides the four of you and the one girl you

19 mentioned who was already there when you arrived, were

20 there other girls in the house? Please don't say the

21 name, but please go to the list if you want to mention

22 any.

23 A. Yes. Number 132, AB, AS.

24 Q. Is there any other girl who is not on the

25 list; and if so, please write down the name. Don't say

Page 1438

1 the name?

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Usher, would you please

3 give her ...

4 A. The full name and surname?

5 Q. If you know it.

6 A. Yes.

7 [Witness complies]

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, for

9 clarification, the name on this sheet of paper is the

10 initial JG referred to in the indictment.

11 Q. Witness, in relation to the name you just

12 wrote down, would you please refer to her as JG.

13 A. Yes.

14 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be

15 Prosecution Exhibit 191.


17 Q. When did JG arrive in the house?

18 A. I think after we were there for four or five

19 days.

20 Q. Do you recall who brought her to the house?

21 A. I think it was Micko Savic.

22 Q. When did 132 come to the house?

23 A. After I had been there for about a month, a

24 month and a half in that house, that's when -- or

25 rather before that AB came, and then they took her

Page 1439

1 back, together with another girl. The two of them

2 spent two nights there, detained in the house, and then

3 they took them back. And when they rounded up all the

4 women, girls, children, from Miljevina, and took them

5 to Foca again, then Radovan Stankovic got AB off the

6 bus and returned her to us, to the Karaman house.

7 Number 132 came even after she came, because allegedly

8 they did not touch her at home.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, you are on your

10 feet.

11 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

12 Honour. My client would ask kindly if he could go to

13 the toilet for a minute, and he cannot do that without

14 your consent.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, he may. .

16 [The accused withdraws]

17 [The accused entered court]

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Counsel. Please proceed.


20 Q. And what about AS? You mentioned AS also

21 from the list. When did she come?

22 A. AB and AS were brought together. Radovan

23 Stankovic got them off the bus and brought them to us

24 up there, because that is what Pero had ordered him to

25 do.

Page 1440

1 Q. How do you know that?

2 A. I know because that is what they said

3 themselves when they came up there. Radovan Stankovic

4 was with us almost non-stop during those three months,

5 also Nikola Brcic, Nedjo Samardzic. The three of them

6 were with us almost every night. They said to us

7 themselves, "When we don't need you anymore, we are

8 going to kill you." That is why they could say all

9 sorts of things in front of us, because they thought

10 that none of us would survive and come out to tell of

11 their destiny and tell the truth.

12 Q. Did you ever consider to flee?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And did you do it?

15 A. No. We didn't know where and how. That

16 night lots of shooting could be heard around

17 Miljevina. Later on I found out that it was our

18 civilians who were fleeing from Tjentiste towards

19 Igman, towards Grebak.

20 Q. How do you know that?

21 A. Well, also when they would come back, they

22 would always talk, and they would say how many remained

23 dead on the road, how many they had killed, how many

24 had passed, all these things. They did not hide

25 anything when they came to the house, to us. They said

Page 1441

1 very openly what they were doing, where they were

2 going. The most difficult thing for me was to wash

3 their blood-stained uniforms, because I know that that

4 is also my brother's blood, and I had to wash it.

5 Q. Witness, you mentioned AB. Do you recall how

6 old she was during the events?

7 A. Twelve.

8 Q. Were all the girls you mentioned who were

9 with you at that house raped?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did any of you stay in that house

12 voluntarily?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you ever see Zaga at Karaman's House?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How often did you see him?

17 A. I think twice or three times he came. Before

18 that he would order meat to be roasted for him and then

19 he'd come to eat up there. And then he asked who made

20 the bread. I said it was me. And then he said, "I'd

21 only come here for the bread."

22 The next time he came all fractured.

23 Apparently he had had a car accident and he had plaster

24 all over him. And he said, "Which one of you cast a

25 curse so that this happened to me?" And I thought

Page 1442

1 myself, "I did, personally," but I did not dare say.

2 Q. When he came to the house, did he on any

3 occasion sexually assault anybody in the house?

4 A. I'm not sure.

5 Q. Did he on any of these occasions separate one

6 of you girls and take this girl to another floor or

7 into another room?

8 A. I'm not sure now. Once he did, DB or 87, but

9 I'm not sure which one of the two.

10 Q. Do you recall when that was?

11 A. The first time when he came.

12 Q. Was that when he was in plaster?

13 A. No. No.

14 Q. Did you ever see Gaga at the house?

15 A. I did not. Afterwards I found out from the

16 others that they had killed him in Miljevina, because

17 he asked for us to be sent back to him, to Foca. And

18 then apparently Pero's men did not allow that and there

19 were complications between them, and they killed Gaga

20 there in Miljevina. He was killed, which was a major

21 relief to us when we found out.

22 Q. How did you find out?

23 A. We found out from Radovan Stankovic and

24 Nikola Vujicic when they came to the house and when

25 they told us how Zaga and Gaga asked for us to be sent

Page 1443

1 back to Foca and that Pero would not allow this, and

2 then that they had a shoot-out and a quarrel and that

3 Gaga was killed.

4 Q. When did you leave Karaman's House?

5 A. We left Karaman's House on the 30th of

6 October, 1992.

7 Q. Who took you away there?

8 A. On that day, Gojko Jankovic came, and Janko

9 Janjic and Dragan Zelenovic. They came to the house.

10 Before that, Cicmil. Cicmil was his name. Allegedly

11 he was a teacher somewhere in some school.

12 So he even gave us Christian names. He gave

13 us Serb names and we did not dare use our own names.

14 He said that from that day onwards we were Serbs. When

15 I started to cross -- when I wanted to cross myself, I

16 didn't do it properly, and of course I didn't know how

17 to do it, and then he jumped to his feet and said that

18 he would cut off my hand because I did not know how to

19 cross myself properly.

20 On that day Gojko Jankovic came and Zelenovic

21 and Tuta. Pero was also there. All of them. Then

22 they separated the four of us and they took us to Foca.

23 Q. The four of you, who was that?

24 A. Number 87. Then there was AB and AS, and

25 myself, of course.

Page 1444

1 Q. Did they tell you why you were taken away?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What did they say?

4 A. They said that they had to send us to Foca

5 because they had no food to feed us there anymore.

6 That's what they told us, and that we would have to go

7 to Foca.

8 Q. Where were you taken in Foca? To which

9 place?

10 A. They took us to an apartment there in the

11 Ribarsko settlement in Foca.

12 Q. Were you raped in this apartment?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When did that happen?

15 A. Well, it was about -- I think that same night

16 when they took us there. I don't know what the exact

17 time was, but it was that same night.

18 Q. And who raped you on this occasion?

19 A. Tuta.

20 Q. And the other girls you mentioned, were they

21 raped as well?

22 A. Number 87 was raped by Zelenovic, and AB was

23 raped by Gojko Jankovic. Because he had previously

24 made us go into the bathroom and clean the bath and

25 fill it with water, and then he shut himself up there

Page 1445

1 with the little girl in the bathroom.

2 Q. Did you stay in this apartment for longer or

3 were you taken somewhere else?

4 A. No. We spent the whole night there; we slept

5 there. And then the next day, sometime in the afternoon,

6 Radomir Kovac, nicknamed Klanfa, turned up, and Jagos

7 Kostic, nicknamed Jadza, also came, and they took us

8 away from there to the Brena apartment, fourth floor.

9 That was also a Muslim-owned flat, although this person

10 Kovac had taken it over, and he wrote "Klanfa" with a

11 magic marker on the front door so that everybody knew

12 that he was living there.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the

14 usher, I would like to show a photo to the witness. It

15 is Exhibit 11, photo 7401. Can we turn it so that it

16 is -- yes, thank you.

17 Q. Witness, do you know this building?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. What is it?

20 A. That's the building, yes.

21 Q. You mean the Brena Block?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is the apartment you just mentioned, Klanfa's

24 apartment, is it on this very part of the building that

25 is shown now?

Page 1446

1 A. Yes, precisely in this part. One, two, three

2 -- it was the fourth floor here, about there. It was

3 on the fourth floor, this apartment.

4 Q. Before you were taken there, did anybody

5 explain to you why you were taken there and what was

6 going to happen?

7 A. Well, Klanfa told us, in no uncertain terms,

8 "We're taking you to us now. You'll be protected."

9 And all the ones before him said the same thing. They

10 would always say that nobody would touch us, nobody

11 else would come, that we would have a nice time, up

12 until one point, until we left, managed to get out.

13 Q. Did you ever feel protected?

14 A. No.

15 Q. What actually -- how did you actually feel?

16 A. How would one feel? We were very,

17 frightened, always in shock. I was just waiting,

18 waiting for them to say they would kill us or something

19 like that, because I never believed them for a moment.

20 Regardless of what they would say, I never believed

21 anything they said. Because they were very low-life

22 before the war and they would go around begging for

23 cigarettes. And I knew people like this, and once

24 they've got a rifle into their hands, they immediately

25 sort of became big. And Klanfa was one of these

Page 1447

1 low-life people, and Dragan Ginic as well. They were

2 very low-life people.

3 But when the war broke out, as soon as they

4 managed to get their hands on some rifles, they began

5 to feel big and strong. But they were only brave with

6 us women and children. Yes, they were really brave.

7 And when they killed all the people in my village,

8 women and children, they would celebrate this event.

9 It was a cause for great celebration. And of course

10 it's easy to kill someone unarmed, and that was their

11 bravery, against innocent, unarmed people.

12 Q. Witness, before you were taken away by Klanfa

13 and Jagos Kostic, did Gojko Jankovic tell you what was

14 going to happen, or did you see him and Klanfa discuss

15 about your fate?

16 A. No. In the morning when we got up, Gojko

17 Jankovic and Tuta left, and in the course of that night

18 this other one left. He didn't sleep in the apartment

19 at all. They went off and they said that two other men

20 would come to take us away and that we would have a

21 super time there and nobody would touch us there. And

22 they left and these others came in the afternoon.

23 Q. How long did you stay in Klanfa's apartment?

24 A. Well, about a month and a half. A month in

25 his apartment, more or less, and then he took us --

Page 1448

1 gave us to the Serbs and then took us back to his

2 place. So all this was about a month and a half in

3 all.

4 Q. When you refer to "us," do you mean all four

5 of you girls?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. While you were at Klanfa's apartment, were

8 you sexually assaulted?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were the other girls as well sexually

11 assaulted?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When were you raped for the first time in

14 this place, and by whom?

15 A. The first time in Klanfa's apartment I was

16 raped by Klanfa himself.

17 Q. Was it immediately after you arrived there,

18 or when did it happen?

19 A. Well, I don't think it was straight away. I

20 don't remember exactly. But the next night, certainly.

21 Q. And can you describe what exactly did he do

22 to you?

23 A. Well, he said he would sort of protect me and

24 that I would be only with him and that he wouldn't

25 bring anybody else to me and that nobody else would

Page 1449

1 rape me. And this went on for about five or six days,

2 perhaps a week; I'm not quite sure. And then he turned

3 to other girls, to girl number 87 and AB. He raped

4 them. And then he would bring others to rape me. And

5 I didn't -- when I didn't agree, he would beat me, slap

6 my face, and ask me why I didn't want to go off with

7 anybody else into the room.

8 Q. When Klanfa raped you, did he rape you

9 vaginally?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Anally?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Orally?

14 A. No.

15 Q. How often did he rape you in this first -- I

16 think you said five or six days?

17 A. Every evening, I think. He raped me and

18 number 85 together in the same bed, with music playing;

19 Swan Lake, actually. He did that sort of thing. And

20 he told me, "I killed your brother. What do you want?

21 What can you do about it?" That's what he said. And I

22 sort of swallowed that and I said, "Well, bully for

23 you."

24 Q. Witness, you just said "85," but that is

25 probably a mistake.

Page 1450

1 A. 87.

2 Q. Did you see that Klanfa also raped the other

3 girls, except for the two of you you have already

4 mentioned: you and 87?

5 A. I didn't see that, but I'm sure about AB.

6 I'm sure he raped AB.

7 Q. You said that after a certain period of time

8 he brought in others to rape you. Could you tell me

9 whom he brought in?

10 A. On one occasion he brought Zoran Vukovic to

11 me.

12 Q. Do you recall when that was?

13 A. Well, I don't remember exactly, but ...

14 Q. Was it in the period before you were

15 transferred to some soldiers from Serbia?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When you say Zoran Vukovic came to you, is

18 that the Zoran Vukovic who was together with your --

19 you saw with your uncle, and is that the Zoran Vukovic

20 you pointed out to us after the lunch break?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you describe what happened exactly?

23 A. He shut me up in the kitchen with him and we

24 sat and talked there: who was killed, who was not

25 killed. And then he said that he had killed my uncle,

Page 1451

1 that he had been allegedly forced -- that is to say

2 that he started fleeing across the River Drina and that

3 then they shot him. But I don't believe him. I'm sure

4 they slit his throat first and then threw him into the

5 river. I'm 100 per cent certain that that's how it

6 happened, because all the screaming that was heard.

7 He could have said anything he liked, but

8 they had ordered us -- they had ordered Brano Cosovic

9 to kill us out because we had been there a long time

10 and that we knew a lot of things and that we weren't

11 allowed to leave the place alive, because otherwise we

12 would have been able to tell people about all these

13 things.

14 Q. How do you know that?

15 A. Well, I know because I learnt about this

16 later on from the Serbs, a Serb who told me that.

17 Q. On that occasion when Zoran Vukovic came into

18 the Klanfa apartment and you were in the kitchen, did

19 he sexually assault you; and if so, in which way? What

20 exactly did he do?

21 A. First of all he forced me -- I don't know how

22 to express myself -- to excite him, because after

23 everything we talked about, he couldn't get an

24 erection. Then he took his penis out and made me get

25 him excited so that he could rape me then.

Page 1452

1 Q. Does that mean you had to put his penis into

2 your mouth?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And when he had an erection, what did he do

5 then? Did he rape you vaginally?

6 A. No. I don't remember.

7 Q. Before this happened, did you see him talk

8 with Klanfa?

9 A. I don't remember.

10 Q. You said he forced you to excite him. What

11 do you mean by "force"?

12 A. Well, that I had to -- I don't know how to

13 explain this.

14 Q. Did he threaten you or did he point a gun at

15 you?

16 A. No. No. He just said that he couldn't get

17 an erection after everything. And then I had to use my

18 hand and mouth to stimulate him so that he could get an

19 erection to rape me.

20 Q. Were you frightened when that happened?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You said that you stayed there in this Klanfa

23 apartment for about a month and then you were taken to

24 another group of soldiers. How did that happen?

25 A. No. Vojkan Jadzic came to the house, from

Page 1453

1 Serbia, from Titovo Uzice, although we weren't allowed

2 to say Titovo Uzice, because it was no longer Tito's

3 Uzice; it was renamed Serbian Uzice.

4 He came, and Klanfa would bring me, Tarza,

5 Slavo Ivanovic. And I didn't want to go into the room

6 with them, and then he slapped me and said -- asked me

7 why I didn't want to go. And then what would happen

8 was he would send AB, a 12-year-old child, to be raped

9 by an old man of 50.

10 And then Klanfa brought Vojkan Jadzic, from

11 Serbia, a Serbian. And he told us previously, me and

12 AB, that we would go down to a house near the hotel,

13 where these Serbs were, and that we would have a nice

14 time there, that nobody would touch us; the same old

15 story: that we would have everything; just to clean

16 for them and wash for them and cook for them, that sort

17 of thing, when they came in from wherever they were.

18 Q. Did you ever see that any soldier paid Klanfa

19 for abusing you?

20 A. Yes, but later on.

21 Q. But at that time during this period in

22 Klanfa's apartment, did you ever notice something like

23 this, or did you see anything else that made you think

24 that this had happened?

25 A. No, I didn't.

Page 1454

1 Q. Besides the persons you have already

2 mentioned as having raped you in Klanfa's apartment,

3 were you also raped by more men in this apartment?

4 A. No, not there.

5 Q. You spoke of the house near the Hotel

6 Zelengora. Who took you there?

7 A. This Serb man, Vojkan Jadzic, nicknamed

8 Jadza.

9 Q. How long did you stay in this place?

10 A. Well, we stayed there for about 15 days as

11 well.

12 Q. You and AB?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What happened in this house to the two of

15 you? Were you raped?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Only once, or constantly?

18 A. Constantly.

19 Q. Did you see Klanfa Kovac at that house?

20 A. Well, he would come by frequently to see what

21 was happening, how we were, allegedly, and whether

22 anybody was touching us. He sort of was allegedly

23 sorry for us.

24 Q. Did he say something like this, or how do you

25 come to say this?

Page 1455

1 A. Well, he would come into the house, and he'd

2 say, "What are you doing, my girls? How are you

3 today? Anybody abusing you? How are you?" He would

4 say that kind of thing and then go off.

5 Q. These soldiers from Serbia, how many were

6 they?

7 A. I can't remember them all, but there were

8 quite a number of them; ten, fifteen, at least.

9 Q. Did they belong to a certain unit?

10 A. I don't really remember.

11 Q. Where were you taken after this house near

12 the Hotel Zelengora?

13 A. After the Zelengora Hotel we would be taken

14 to an apartment near Masala, the other part of Foca.

15 Q. Who took you there?

16 A. The Serbs: Vojkan Jadzic, Zeljko, Dzole, and

17 then there was also -- I don't remember the names.

18 Q. And how long did you stay in this place?

19 A. Well, I think about seven days. Seven to ten

20 days.

21 Q. Were you taken there together with AB?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were you sexually assaulted in this place as

24 well?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1456

1 Q. Did Klanfa Kovac come to this place as well?

2 A. No.

3 Q. When did you see him for the next time?

4 A. About seven to ten days later, when I was in

5 Masala, in that apartment there, one evening Jadzic

6 took me and AB to Klanfa's apartment again in the Brena

7 Block, and we met up with the girls there again, the

8 girls that had stayed on there; that is to say, 87 and

9 AS, they were still there. And they brought a 25-litre

10 cannister of brandy and they left us there and said

11 that they would go off drinking somewhere, to a cafe

12 somewhere.

13 And then when they returned from the cafe,

14 there was chaos. Vojkan Jadzic wanted to rape number

15 87, because Klanfa had promised him that. And he went

16 into the room with her, but -- and where they were

17 sitting, they were firing -- shooting out of the

18 windows, and they broke the glass on all the windows

19 with the shooting.

20 Zeljko couldn't listen to all of this, and he

21 took off AB to the apartment at Masala, whereas this

22 other one -- what was his name? Let me just think.

23 Jagos Kostic took AS away to Donje Polje, to an

24 apartment there, so it was only myself and AB who

25 remained there.

Page 1457

1 And while they were sitting around and

2 drinking and shooting, Klanfa promised Jadzic that he

3 would let number 87 sleep with him. And when this man

4 went into the room with her, he came in after him and

5 told her to get out. She went out. I was made to go

6 and sleep, but Klanfa came in and told me to get up and

7 said, "Who ordered you to go to sleep?"

8 And this went on the whole night. Every five

9 minutes Jadzic would make me lie down and sleep, and

10 this other one would tell me to get up: "Who told you

11 to sleep?" So this went on and on until 9.00 in the

12 morning, until they fell down unconscious from the

13 alcohol, and Klanfa went to sleep.

14 But then Tuta arrived. Jadzic and Klanfa

15 were sleeping by this time, and myself and number 87

16 went into the other room to get a bit of sleep because

17 we were so exhausted; we couldn't stand on our feet

18 anymore. And just as we laid down to go to sleep,

19 somebody knocked on the door. I went to open the door

20 and it was Tuta. And Tuta came in and started cursing

21 and swearing at them and making a noise generally.

22 Nobody was able to sleep all around. So he wanted to

23 come in the night and kill them all for having fired

24 the gunshots. And he made me and number 87 collect up

25 our things and go to his place. He said that we would

Page 1458

1 be okay there and that nobody would -- that we would be

2 protected there and that nobody would touch us there.

3 In the meantime, Vojkan Jadzic got up and

4 they took us all away from there and took us to the

5 Brena building, but the other side; the same apartment

6 block, but the other side. The entrance was the other

7 side, on the third floor, which was Tuta's apartment.

8 And we stayed there until noon, and Jadzic was

9 persistent in raping number 87.

10 So I sat there and Tuta gave us some cheese

11 to eat because we were hungry. And then Klanfa came in

12 holding a knife in his hand. And he just pointed at us

13 with his finger. He said, "You and you, you get up."

14 But Tuta didn't get up at any time to say anything, or

15 Vojkan Jadzic. So we had to get up and follow him

16 downstairs. And he said, "Bullet is gold. This is

17 what is going to decide your fate." Why, I don't

18 know.

19 And he took us to the Masala area. We passed

20 by the municipality building, on the bank, but I kept

21 my head down and couldn't see anything. At one point I

22 just felt how hard he hit me in the face. He hit me

23 with his fist hard in the face and I fell down.

24 AB, that is, number 87, took me up by the arm

25 and helped me get up, and she showed me her face, which

Page 1459

1 was already swollen and her nose bleeding. She was all

2 swollen in the face.

3 And going toward Masala, he made us go there

4 with this knife in his hand, and he turned the knife

5 around and hit me on the head with it. And I had a

6 bump on my head from the blow. And I was completely

7 exhausted and afraid, and my knees just wouldn't hold

8 me up. I had no strength whatsoever.

9 But we got to the apartment at Masala and we

10 found AB there, and she had been beaten up. She was

11 crying and screaming, and said, "Where have you been?"

12 Because before he went to her flat, he beat her up,

13 asking her where we were. But she didn't know where we

14 were. She couldn't tell him, because we had been taken

15 off by Zeljko. And so he beat her up and then came to

16 Tuta's place.

17 And then he forced all three of us to strip,

18 always with this knife in his hand. He always had this

19 knife. And so he made us take our clothes off and then

20 he made us get up onto the table, and it was cold. It

21 was winter. There was no heating. And for about half

22 an hour or an hour we had to stand up naked on the

23 table, all three of us, and while he was lying down on

24 the sofa.

25 And then he said, "You are now going to go

Page 1460

1 naked down to the Drina River," and that he would slit

2 our throats there and throw us into the river. He made

3 us go outside naked. We just collected up our clothes

4 in our hands. We carried our things. He made us get

5 out of there and made us go down towards the

6 municipality building.

7 In the meantime, Kostic Jagos ran towards

8 him. What they said I couldn't hear. The two of them,

9 they talked, and then he made us go back to the

10 apartment and get dressed again. We went into the

11 apartment, put our clothes on again.

12 Then he forced us out again and made us go

13 down to the municipality building and further down

14 towards the bridge on the river. But he couldn't get

15 down some steps that were there by the bridge, so he

16 made us go back by the municipality building and down

17 the Ribarsko settlement, and there was a cafe there

18 called Ribarsko. And then he brought us to where the

19 Cehotina and Drina Rivers meet. And I just looked back

20 at him, because I wasn't able to go forward. But I

21 always thought, "You're not going to slit my throat.

22 You're not going to slaughter me alive."

23 And as the Drina River was -- the tide was

24 high, and I thought that I would throw myself into the

25 Drina, that I'd rather drown than have my throat slit

Page 1461

1 by him. And I kept saying to myself, "I won't let him

2 slaughter me. I won't." That was the one thought that

3 I had.

4 And as he was taking us down to the Drina

5 and Cehotina confluence, Jagos Kostic ran behind us and

6 he told him to stop. Klanfa did stop, and he went back

7 up towards him and they carried on with this

8 conversation. They said -- they were talking, and then

9 he threw me the keys at one point and told us to go up

10 to the apartment in the Brena Block. This was not far

11 from the apartment block. They told me to clear up all

12 the shattered glass and the ammunition that they had

13 been firing the previous night. And then we all went

14 to the Brena Block together.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel --

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll have to continue on

18 Monday at 0930 hours.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

20 at 4:10 p.m., to be reconvened on

21 Monday, the 3rd day of April 2000, at

22 9.30 a.m.




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