1 Thursday, 6th April 2000 2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: May the registrar please call
6 the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case
8 IT-96-23-T, IT-96-23/1-T, the Prosecutor versus
9 Dragoljub Kunarac, Radomir Kovac, and Zoran.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution, please.
11 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Madam President and Your
12 Honours. There are a few matters we thought might be
13 appropriately dealt with at this point. I can tell you
14 that it is our intention to call Mr. Brett Simpson, who
15 was one of the investigators who did the interviews
16 with the accused Kunarac. Before I get into that
17 issue, however, my colleague, Ms. Kuo, who has had
18 conduct of the -- of a previous witness, has an issue
19 concerning the cross-examination and Rule 96, and
20 perhaps she might address the Chamber on that issue at
21 this point, if you would care to hear about that now.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
23 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
24 MS. KUO: Your Honours, this issue is
25 prompted by the cross-examination of Witness 87
1 yesterday by Mr. Kolesar, in which he asked Witness 87
2 questions regarding a letter that was allegedly sent
3 and signed with a heart. At the moment there is
4 nothing about that letter actually in evidence because
5 the witness simply denied any knowledge of it, but we
6 are concerned, if this question is to be raised in the
7 future, that the Rule 96(3) be observed, and that
8 states that any evidence of consent, and that appears
9 to be what the Defence is alleging here, be presented
10 to the Court in camera before it is entered in evidence
11 and the Court find that it is relevant and credible.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. I'm waiting for the
13 interpretation to be completed.
14 Yes. Mr. Kolesar, you understood the
15 concerns of the Prosecution regarding the procedure in
16 these cases and in Rule 96. I'm not expecting you to
17 say anything if you don't wish to. I just want to make
18 it clear to you that the Prosecution have raised these
19 concern regarding the matter they've talked about.
20 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
21 within the framework of the cross-examination, I did
22 put this question to the witness, and as I received a
23 negative response, I thought there was no need for me
24 to investigate any further. So regardless of Rule 96,
25 I see no reason for concern by the Prosecution.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much,
2 Mr. Kolesar. Yes, we'll proceed.
3 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Before I call the next witness, I should perhaps
5 indicate to the Court what our intention is with
6 respect to the calling of the evidence concerning the
7 statements. Part of it is a matter of timing. We
8 didn't want any witnesses from other countries here
9 prior to the break, so we thought that this was the
10 most appropriate time to play the videos.
11 I can tell you that there are some five
12 videotapes, copies of which have been distributed to
13 Defence counsel. They are five videotapes which deal
14 with the first interview which took place on the
15 13th of March, 1988 [sic], and then -- did I say
16 1988? 1998. Slip of the tongue -- and the remaining
17 four videotapes deal with the second interview taken a
18 year and a month later. That would be April 23rd and
19 24th of 1999.
20 Having said all of that, there are about
21 18 hours worth of tapes. Needless to say, it is not my
22 intention to play all 18 hours worth of tapes. That
23 would take well in excess of a full court week.
24 So what the proposal is is that I'm going to,
25 with the Court's consent -- we have excerpted
1 highlights of those statements which would take about
2 three and a half hours of playing time. In other
3 words, we can manage to accomplish that, I think, in
4 about one court day. There will be transcripts.
5 As you know, all the tapes and all the
6 transcripts are in evidence, so that is the complete
7 evidence. In other words, my friends and the Chamber
8 have the entire conversations. But whether you want me
9 to go through the process of playing all 18 hours and
10 watching the transcript, that might be not an effective
11 use of time and it might, in some instances, be of a
12 bit of a mind-numbing exercise. So I thought we would
13 do it this way.
14 The Defence, of course, can, on
15 cross-examination, highlight any portions of the tape
16 that they wish.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
18 MR. RYNEVELD: That brings us to the next
19 issue, and that is redaction. There are in these tapes
20 some names mentioned, and my friend, Mr. Prodanovic,
21 who is largely concerned, because of course it's his
22 client, has indicated that he would be bringing on an
23 application this morning -- he told me that at close of
24 business yesterday -- that these tapes be played, as I
25 understand it, either in closed or private session. I
1 will let him raise that issue.
2 My understanding is that the purpose of his
3 application is that in these tapes, names of some
4 witnesses that they may wish to call, he may be wanting
5 to bring on protective-measure application for those
6 people. I'll let him make his application.
7 I can tell you, however, that with respect to
8 the March 13th, 1998 interview, the first of the tapes
9 that we will be playing, we have redacted the names of
10 the presently protected witnesses; in other words, the
11 name will be cut out.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: That is the Prosecution
14 MR. RYNEVELD: That is the Prosecution
15 witness. And to my understanding, the only name that
16 my friend might be concerned about named in that
17 interview is an individual who is no longer alive.
18 When we get to the April interviews, there
19 are indeed -- at this point, Mr. Kunarac is naming
20 names. In the first statement he's careful not to name
21 names and says he doesn't want to name names and is
22 quite judicious in not doing so.
23 So I'll let my friend raise this issue, but I
24 thought I'd give you the big picture about the two
25 different statements and the two different concerns and
1 how we might meet those, but I shouldn't presuppose
2 what it is my friend wants.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Ryneveld, you did say that
4 the transcripts were in evidence. This may be a slip
5 of the tongue but, so far as I know, they haven't been
6 tendered, have they? They are in the books and they
7 are called an exhibit in the rather curious fashion
8 that's followed here, but they are not, as I understand
9 it, in evidence.
10 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honour is absolutely
11 right. What I ought to do is when I commence these
12 proceedings, is to make an application, with my
13 friend's consent, that the items that have been
14 pre-marked as intended exhibits go in by consent both
15 in terms of the tapes and in terms of the transcript in
16 their entirety, and that for the purpose of this
17 exercise, we are highlighting portions of the evidence
18 in accordance with what I understood the Chamber asked
19 us to do during a Pre-Trial Conference whereby we were
20 asked to highlight portions of evidence to which we
21 wished to draw your attention. This is in compliance
22 with that direction.
23 [Trial Chamber deliberates]
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. After our deliberations,
25 we are of the view that there is no need for the Trial
1 Chamber to view the tapes during the proceedings or
2 indeed to go through the transcripts during the
3 proceedings. We have got the tapes and the
4 transcripts, and if the Defence will consent to have
5 them produced or whatever they will say if the Trial
6 Chamber rules that they will be produced into evidence,
7 then that's okay, we can deal with them at our own
8 time, we can deal with the documentation at our own
10 Of course, the Defence will be given an
11 opportunity to express their views and deal with
12 potential witnesses. That will be a matter for them.
13 But for us, we are not interested in viewing the tapes
14 during the proceedings, going through the details.
15 The Prosecution may call their witness simply
16 to deal with the formalities that this happened on
17 such-and-such a date and that sort of thing, not
18 highlighting even in the tapes. That would take too
19 much time when, in fact, we shall have them.
20 MR. RYNEVELD: I understand. Just so I'm
21 clear about what you're saying, you wish me to call the
22 witness, go through some of the formalities of actually
23 entering the tapes and the transcript into evidence
24 should that be permitted. You do then not wish me to
25 call the witness's attention to the highlighted
1 portions of the evidence? You're not asking for that?
2 JUDGE MUMBA: No. He can describe without
3 viewing the tape, because he will say video number
4 so-and-so was taken during such-and-such a time. In
5 that videotape, this and that is shown or depicted.
6 MR. RYNEVELD: All right.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: That sort of description.
8 MR. RYNEVELD: I might just give the Court an
9 indication, however, that in terms of the scheduling of
10 witnesses, this will take considerably less time, and
11 I'm not sure we have any other witnesses in the wings.
12 So as long as you're aware that although this is an
13 extremely -- I think obviously it's welcome news.
14 Nevertheless, I want the Court to be aware that we had
15 anticipated that we would take all day with this
16 witness. We can probably do this in one session.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: The Court is very much aware of
19 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: In fact, the Judges are
21 overloaded with work in other Trial Chambers, as you
23 MR. RYNEVELD: Oh, I do. I just didn't want
24 to get your wrath by saying, "I'm sorry, I'm out of
25 witnesses for today."
1 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. We got the list
2 and we are aware of that. We are fully conscious of
3 what is going to transpire. We are fully conscious of
4 our duty to get the relevant evidence for these
6 Now I'll turn to the Defence. The Defence
7 have understood what the Prosecution have said, and I
8 do hope they have understood what the Bench has said.
9 We have said that we have no interest, at this time, to
10 view all the tapes during these proceedings, because if
11 you consent or if we rule, these tapes will be in our
12 custody, together with the transcripts. We will be
13 able to view them during our time. We will be able to
14 follow the transcripts during our time.
15 Now, I'm turning to you, the Defence
16 counsels. You have heard what the Prosecution has
17 said. You have the tapes. You have the transcripts.
18 Now, I'd like to find out from you whether you have any
19 objection to have these tapes and their transcripts
20 produced into evidence.
21 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
22 I believe that is the best solution that you have
23 suggested. We are not opposed to the tapes being
24 entered into evidence, especially as the accused
25 Kunarac does intend to testify in his own defence in
1 this case.
2 So that I agree that it would be absolutely
3 redundant to view all this when we will be hearing the
4 accused as a witness. In that situation, the Defence
5 will have an opportunity put questions to the accused
6 or witness.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The other point, before
8 we actually number them formally, is that when it comes
9 to your turn to cross-examine, you are free to
10 cross-examine the witness who introduced these tapes
11 fully. I take it you have viewed the tapes. You can
12 raise any issues you wish to raise in cross-examination
13 of the Prosecution witnesses.
14 So your cross-examination will not be
15 limited. If you want to view any parts, highlight
16 them, it's up to you. We can continue with this
17 witness the next sitting time. So I want you to
18 understand that fully.
19 Now I'll turn to the registrar. With the
20 assistance of the Prosecution, they know which tapes,
21 which numbers, so to assist the registrar.
22 MR. RYNEVELD: My understanding, Your Honour,
23 is that the transcript of the March 13, 1998 interview
24 has been pre-marked as Exhibit 67, and the videotape
25 that goes with it has been pre-marked as number 68.
1 The next day, which is a month and a year
2 later, is the April 22nd interview, April 22nd, 1999
3 interview. The transcript is number 69, and the video
4 is number 70. They go in -- transcripts are the odd
5 numbers and the videos are the even numbers.
6 So that then brings us to the following day's
7 interview, the 23rd of April, 1999, the transcript 71,
8 the video 72.
9 That is my understanding of the pre-marked
10 numbers of the evidence which we would be putting into
12 Now, although item number -- I'm sorry. The
13 video 68 is one tape and the video 70 and 72 comprise
14 four tapes.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: So there are four segments in
16 that exhibit.
17 MR. RYNEVELD: In those exhibits. That's
18 correct, yes.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.
20 MR. RYNEVELD: So there's a total of five
22 JUDGE MUMBA: So may we have numbers formally
23 from the registrar?
24 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] First of all,
25 I have to check with you, and that is whether the video
1 cassette numbered V001314, does it indeed correspond to
2 the video dated the 13th of March, 1998? Because I
3 don't have a number on that video cassette.
4 MR. RYNEVELD: I cannot speak from personal
5 knowledge, but our case manager is nodding and assuring
6 me that's so.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Very well.
9 Thank you. In that case, the transcript of the video
10 of the 13th of March, 1998 will have the number 67,
11 Prosecution Exhibit. The tape of the 13th of March,
12 1998 will be Prosecution Exhibit 68.
13 The transcript of the video of the 22nd of
14 April, 1999 will be Prosecution Exhibit 69. As for the
15 tapes of the 22nd of April, 1999, there are three
16 tapes. Therefore, I suggest that we give the first
17 tape number 70/1; the second 70/2, Prosecution Exhibit;
18 and the third tape 70/3 Prosecution Exhibit.
19 The transcript of the interview of the 23rd
20 of April, 1999 will be Prosecution Exhibit 71, and the
21 videotape of the 23rd of April, 1999 will be
22 Prosecution Exhibit 72.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Madam Registrar. I
24 would like to confirm with the Defence counsel again
25 whether he has understood the numbering of the exhibits
1 and that he has got all these exhibits.
2 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
3 Honour, we do have all these exhibits which have just
4 been mentioned.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Before I forget, I
6 wanted to find out from you, Mr. Prodanovic, there was
7 an expression by the Prosecution of your concerns
8 regarding maybe some names mentioned in the tapes, that
9 they may be witnesses for the Defence and maybe at the
10 time you may wish to have protective measures, and
11 maybe you would like, at this stage, to put it in
12 writing what the names of these witnesses are so that
13 the protective measures can be dealt with before we
14 even start viewing the tapes.
15 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
16 I'm afraid I wasn't correctly understood by the
17 Prosecution when we had our conversation yesterday. I
18 wish to tell you that my client came here voluntarily,
19 which created animosity in the environment from which
20 he came, and he mentioned certain events and names
21 linked to those events. In Foca there is a sealed
22 indictment in addition to this public indictment, (redacted)
1 (redacted). And in accordance with Rule 69, had the
2 interview been public -- 79, I'm sorry -- we would have
3 suggested a closed session for the hearing of those
5 [Trial Chamber deliberates]
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prodanovic, we have
7 deliberated on your concerns and would like to give a
8 few guidelines. When writing a judgement, it is
9 necessary to mention people mentioned by the witnesses,
10 the accused, if they give evidence, and things like
11 that, and persons who may be in the tapes. So if the
12 protective measures are not given now, we may not know
13 how to deal with that. It's may lead to identification
14 of people who should be protected.
15 So what you should do is to work out through
16 those tapes -- you work out a document for each step,
17 the materials you would like to have redacted, the
18 names you'd like to have redacted, and file it. That
19 way, the Prosecution, the Bench, will take care of that
21 We know that you may not call those people in
22 the end. You may change your mind. That's not a
23 problem. What we want is to protect them now so that
24 even when we're viewing, we know that this information
25 is under seal, this name should be redacted, and
1 everybody will be careful, and identifying features,
2 identifying captions, names, will not be revealed to
3 the public.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Prodanovic, as I understand
6 it, your concern is also that you do not want revealed
7 the names of persons your client may have mentioned in
8 the second interview because, as you put it, a threat
9 may be made to his family that he has identified these
10 people in perhaps criminal circumstances. Is that what
11 you're concerned with, as well as the names of your own
13 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] My main
14 concern, exclusive concern, is the fact that he
15 mentioned certain names, and in giving descriptions of
16 certain events, I fear that certain persons who were
17 involved and whom he didn't dare mention might
18 recognise themselves as being involved, which would
19 create a situation that his family might be endangered,
20 especially, as I said, that his voluntary surrender
21 here created a great deal of animosity and disapproval
22 in the environment against his voluntary surrender.
23 JUDGE HUNT: It would probably be very
24 unlikely that it would be necessary in the judgement to
25 refer to that fact, except in the event that if he is
1 convicted, it may be taken into account by you in
2 mitigation. But I think that that probably is not
3 quite so difficult as we may have anticipated from what
4 you said earlier. So we're not concerned about the
5 names of your witnesses, we're concerned only with the
6 fact that your client has named people and he does not
7 want the identity of those persons he's named made
9 I still think it might be worthwhile if you
10 would file the document that the Presiding Judge has
11 suggested, pointing out those passages about which you
12 have concern so that there is a record of it, and if
13 there is any need for reference to those passages in
14 the judgement, then we know not to identify persons by
15 events or names in the way in which you suggest.
16 So if I may put it on behalf of the Presiding
17 Judge, you should still file that document, but we now
18 understand, at least I understand, the purpose for
19 which you want it.
20 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
21 Your Honour. I think that is the best solution and the
22 Defence will act as advised by you.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
24 MR. RYNEVELD: I don't wish to unduly prolong
25 this discussion, I should just indicate that from my
1 reading of those statements, the list should be
2 relatively short, because Mr. Kunarac was very careful
3 to indicate when he didn't want to name names and the
4 reasons why he didn't want to name names. So he was on
5 his guard, as it were, with respect to those issues,
6 and that will become obvious. So I think that the list
7 of names is very short.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Let Mr. Prodanovic do what
9 he thinks is necessary for his defence. The Trial
10 Chamber will make a decision.
11 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The registrar
13 would like to draw the attention of the Chamber that
14 this tape was admitted in open session, so it is part
15 of the public regard, and if there is any problem
16 regarding confidentiality, perhaps it would be a good
17 idea to admit these tapes under seal and for the
18 Registry to wait for a ruling of the Chamber to lift
19 the seal from these tapes.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, yes. Thank you very much,
21 Madam Registrar. That should be the procedure,
22 actually. The tapes, the transcripts under seal. When
23 we get the filing from Mr. Prodanovic, we may change
24 the rule, we may not.
25 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you
1 very much, Madam President.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Perhaps before the Prosecution
3 calls their witness, I wanted to clear with the defence
4 the calling of Witness DB. The documents were given to
5 the defence earlier on, and I did indicate that I would
6 like to know their views as to when they think they
7 will be ready for Witness DB before the end of today.
8 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
9 we were going to raise this question because our
10 deadline was today. Of course, we have no objection to
11 the Witness DB appearing here in court. Mr. Kunarac
12 himself said that in his interview. And we leave it up
13 to the Prosecution and the Chamber to decide whether
14 that is appropriate or not, but for our part, we have
15 no objection either that she be called in 15 days or in
16 a month's time. I'm saying this exclusively as Defence
17 counsel for Mr. Kunarac. I don't know to what extent
18 that witness is of interest to my learned colleagues on
19 this side. It is up to them to state their views.
20 Therefore, I'm speaking only with respect to the
21 accused Kunarac.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Mr. Prodanovic.
23 Mr. Kolesar.
24 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
25 according to the materials at the disposal of the Kovac
1 defence, this witness is of no interest to our client,
2 nor has she said anything of relevance so far linked to
3 our defence. So I quite agree with the proposal by my
4 learned friend Prodanovic.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Mr. Jovanovic,
6 Witness DB.
7 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
8 I too fully agree with the positions taken by my
9 colleagues Prodanovic and Kolesar, especially as
10 regards the Kovac defence, and we are quite ready, when
11 the Chamber and the Prosecution so decides, to hear
12 that witness. Thank you.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution, I take it,
14 have understood?
15 MR. RYNEVELD: Indeed.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: And they will call Witness DB
18 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: We may now proceed.
20 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. We would call
21 Brett Simpson.
22 Now, just before I actually do that, do you
23 wish me to ask questions of him without seeing the
24 video about certain contents of the video or just put
25 the formalities of entering the documents into
1 evidence? I know they've been formally entered, but
2 some of the background, because my original intention
3 and what he may be expecting is that I ask extensive
4 questions throughout all three of these tapes. And I'm
5 not quite sure if I understand what guidance it is that
6 you're seeking from the witness with respect to the
7 tapes today.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I understand your
9 concern. You can ask the questions -- you go with your
10 questions tape by tape. I hope that the witness will
11 be able to remember what is in a particular tape and to
12 be able to simply describe and to simply state briefly
13 whoever he interviewed appeared to be saying.
14 MR. RYNEVELD: So you would like us to
15 briefly give you capsule highlights of what is in the
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
18 MR. RYNEVELD: You do want me to go through
19 that exercise.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Without viewing the
22 MR. RYNEVELD: I think I now understand what
23 you want. Thank you.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 WITNESS: BRETT SIMPSON
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Please make your solemn
2 declaration, witness.
3 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
4 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please be seated.
7 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:
8 Q. Mr. Simpson, I understand you are at present
9 a team leader for one of the investigative teams here
10 at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former
11 Yugoslavia; is that correct?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. And as such, sir, you were in charge of a
14 number of investigators related, among other things, to
15 the investigation of the Foca files; is that correct?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. Sir, prior to your coming to the ICTY, do I
18 understand correctly that you were a member of the
19 Auckland, New Zealand police?
20 A. Yes. I'm still a serving member of the New
21 Zealand police, with 23 years experience.
22 Q. And --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please
24 make pauses between answer and question because of
25 interpretation. Thank you.
1 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you for reminding me.
2 I'll go slower.
3 Q. I'm sorry. I introduced you as Brett
4 Simpson. Perhaps you could state your full name?
5 A. Yes. My full name is Brett Gerard Simpson.
6 Q. I interrupted you at the point where you were
7 about to give us some of your background with the
8 Auckland, New Zealand police?
9 A. Yes. I've been a member of the New Zealand
10 police for 23 years. I still am. I arrived at the
11 Tribunal as an investigator in October 1997. In
12 January 1999, I got the position as team leader of the
13 team that I'm on currently, team 8.
14 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, I should tell you,
15 before we proceed, that we have adopted a slightly
16 different game plan than you and I had initially
17 assumed would be the case. We are not going to be
18 watching any videotapes today. What I will be doing,
19 however, is to ask you some questions and ask that you
20 can perhaps assist us by referring to portions of the
21 transcript and give a capsule comment or agree with a
22 capsule comment that I might suggest to you in terms of
23 what is contained between certain areas of footage for
24 the guidance of the Court when the Court, at a later
25 date, watches the videos. You appreciate what I'm
2 A. Yes, I understand.
3 Q. All right. Now, I understand, sir, that what
4 we have before us today are transcripts and videotapes
5 of two interviews, the first of which was on the 13th
6 of March, 1998, and the second two transcripts for each
7 of the days of the 22nd and 23rd of April, 1999; is
8 that correct?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. What I'm going to ask you to do first now,
11 sir, is turn your mind to the interview of the 13th of
12 March, 1998, if you would, please. Perhaps you could
13 give us some background there in terms of -- you've
14 told us, I believe, that you were then an investigator
15 with the ICTY; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, I was. I was asked to do an interview
17 with Mr. Kunarac on that date, to carry out an
19 Q. All right. And did you, in fact, carry out
20 that interview somewhere on the premises at the ICTY or
21 at another location?
22 A. At another location.
23 Q. And where was that?
24 A. At the detention unit.
25 Q. All right. And I take it that the
1 appropriate video equipment and recording devices were
2 already there; is that correct?
3 A. Yes. There was a portable video recording
4 unit there, and we used that.
5 Q. All right. And can you tell us, sir, who was
6 present during that interview?
7 A. For the duration of the interview, those
8 present were myself, Mr. Kunarac himself, his lawyer,
9 Mr. Pantelic; the interpreter, Mr. Philipovic; and legal
10 officers, Patricia Sellers and Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
11 Q. My co-counsel?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So we have all these people in a room with
14 Mr. Kunarac at the detention centre?
15 A. Yes, six in total.
16 Q. All right. I've asked you to bring with you
17 a copy of the transcript of the March 13th, 1998
18 interview. Do I understand correctly, sir, that in
19 addition to this video recording, there was also an
20 audio recording going at the same time?
21 A. Yes. It's a simultaneous video and audio
23 Q. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as I
24 understand it, there is an audio tape made on a
25 separate cassette which is then transcribed into a
1 transcript; is that correct?
2 A. That's right. An audio-only tape is made
3 from the video and it is the audio tape that is used
4 for the purposes of transcription.
5 Q. Just so that we're clear, when we're looking
6 at the transcript, Exhibit 67, if you would, would you
7 turn with me to the transcript of Exhibit 67, which is
8 the 13th of March, 1998. You will see it says
9 "Dragolub Kunarac interview, 13 March 1998, tape 1,
10 side A". Now, are we talking there about the videotape
11 or the audio tape that is created from the simultaneous
13 A. We're talking about the audio tape that's
15 Q. I see. So if at some point during the
16 transcript of those proceedings we seem to switch to
17 another tape, we're talking switching the audio tape,
18 not the videotape; is that correct?
19 A. That's right. As I understand it, there
20 might have been four audiotapes produced from the one
22 Q. I understand. Now, on the bottom right-hand
23 corner of each of these pages in the document, we see,
24 I suppose, what they call in computer language a
25 footer, and it starts with "t:\team06", et cetera, and
1 then the last words are "tape1a.doc". Do you see that?
2 Is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And if you flip through this document, you
5 will see that it refers to different tape numbers such
6 as "tape1b.doc" and "tape2a. doc,", et cetera.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Those don't refer to videotapes, they refer
9 to the audiotapes from which this transcript is
10 created; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, that's right.
12 Q. All right. Now, sir, having got the
13 technical questions out of the way, you've told us who
14 was present. Can you tell us, sir, where in this -- in
15 this transcript, I understand that there was a process,
16 starting at page 1 through to page 1 of tape1a.doc,
17 which outlines who the people who were present during
18 the course of this interview; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you've already told us who they were?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. On page 2 of this document, did you explain
23 to the accused, Mr. Kunarac, why it was that he was
24 being interviewed, sir?
25 A. Can you refer me to that page again, sir?
1 Q. All right. Perhaps I should ask you to look
2 to page 3. I'm sorry. I said page 2. Page 3, about
3 halfway through the page. I believe it says -- you ask
4 him if he's willing to participate in an interview?
5 A. Yes, I asked him that question. Mr. Kunarac
6 replied, "It is also my wish and this is a wish I had
7 all along to have this interview, but because I did not
8 know the procedure, we have not done this earlier."
9 That was his response.
10 Q. I see. Now, sir, did you, in fact, inform
11 him of his various rights during the course of the
12 interview, and I might refer you to the top of page 4
13 of that document, under tape1a.doc. The reason, just
14 for the Court's information, unfortunately the
15 numbering changes, so you get more than page 1, more
16 than one page 2 when the tape changes. That's why I
17 have to refer the page number to the tape1a.doc or
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that is understood because
20 machines are not human beings. They can't change
21 according to the circumstances. Thank you.
22 MR. RYNEVELD:
23 Q. So on the first page 4, if I may call it
24 that, did you indicate to him what his rights were?
25 A. Yes, I did, bearing in mind that we'd
1 previously discussed the presence of his counsel and
2 the interpreter. At the top of page 4, the portion
3 you're referring to, Mr. Kunarac acknowledged and he
4 states: "I was also told, I was also informed that at
5 any point I can stop at any question and turn to my
6 counsel and ask his legal advice," and at that point
7 the taping will stop until we consult."
8 I can also refer you, sir, back to page 2.
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. Where towards the bottom of the page I
11 formally give him his rights in which I say, "You do
12 not have to say anything or answer my questions unless
13 you do so. Anything that you say will be recorded and
14 could be used in evidence against you in a later
15 Tribunal proceeding, including a trial. Do you
16 understand that?" Mr. Kunarac responded: "Yes, I do,
17 but I can also use any portion of this interview during
18 the proceedings if it's in my interest." And I told
19 him, yes, and the fact that he and his counsel would be
20 supplied with a copy of the tape, and he was happy with
22 Q. He understood, I take it, that if at any
23 point he wanted to terminate the interview, he could do
25 A. Yes. That was my understanding.
1 Q. All right. And from his responses -- I don't
2 need you necessarily to refer to the transcript -- were
3 you satisfied that he understood the purpose of being
4 there, that he understood his rights, that he had his
5 lawyer there and was fully aware of proceedings?
6 A. Definitely.
7 Q. Thank you. Now, if you could turn with me to
8 page 7 under tape1a.doc. Did you ask any questions of
9 Mr. Kunarac about where he resided prior to the war?
10 A. Yes. In response to a question where I put
11 it to him that at some stage in his life he moved to
12 Montenegro. He replied: "Before the outbreak of war
13 in the former Yugoslavia, I lived in Montenegro and I
14 was a citizen of Socialist Federal Republic of
15 Yugoslavia, and I lived in Tivat with my wife and, at
16 that time, my eldest daughter."
17 Over the next two pages he elaborated on his
18 movements between the years 1984 up until the time of
19 the conflict, and much of that is recorded on page 8.
20 Q. On page 8. Before we turn to page 8, at the
21 bottom of page 7, where Mr. Kunarac is being quoted,
22 did he indicate to you then when he returned to Foca?
23 A. Yes. In answer to my question, he said: "I
24 returned to Foca during the war, for the first time on
25 27 May, 1992. I learned that on the 26th, my father
1 was wounded." And he carried on.
2 Q. Now, sir, you brought us to page 8 of tape1a,
3 and I understood, sir, that it was originally our
4 intension to start playing the tape at the very bottom
5 of that page where you ask a question concerning the
6 accused Dragolub Kunarac's nickname.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. That portion, sir, would it be fair to say
9 that from page 8 through to page -- excuse me, I have
10 to count the pages -- well, to page 14 which is the end
11 of the first tape, and then starting at the second page
12 1 of tape1b through to about halfway to page 2 of
13 tape1b, Mr. Kunarac told you about such things as what
14 his nickname was. He discussed his role as a commander
15 of a special unit, what his unit was, where his
16 headquarters were, and gave you some details about
17 Ulica Osmana Djikica 16, the house near the mosque in
19 Is that a fair summary or is there something
20 you might wish to elaborate on in that area?
21 A. That's a fair summary.
22 Q. So that for the Court's benefit, I don't know
23 whether the counters that you will have would assist.
24 We had originally intended to start playing at 10:50:38
25 and stopping at 11:18:06. I don't know if that is of
1 assistance to you or not?
2 JUDGE MUMBA: It is, counsel.
3 MR. RYNEVELD: Sometimes the counters from
4 machine to machine differ somewhat too, but that's a
5 guideline since you've asked us to highlight.
6 Q. Now, sir, turning with me I'm going to skip
7 to page 4 of tape1b, which is the second page 4 in this
8 document. Was there a discussion with Mr. Kunarac
9 about fighting in the vicinity of Foca?
10 A. He refers to activity which occurred in the
11 village of Suba and his account of that is contained at
12 the bottom of page 4 in a reasonably lengthy dialogue
13 there or what he is saying about it.
14 Q. If you were to describe the effect of that
15 dialogue, did it have any bearing of any interest to
16 you on the issue of ethnic cleansing?
17 A. It certainly referred to what could be
18 described as ethnic cleansing, although in fairness to
19 Mr. Kunarac, clearly he was putting, you know, a
20 different interpretation on it.
21 Q. Yes. So that would be that portion of his
22 answer at the bottom of the second page 4, tape1b?
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. Now, just for clarification, sir, during the
25 course of this interview I understand that at some
1 points Mr. Kunarac had a copy of an indictment with him
2 and actually referred to certain paragraph numbers in
3 the indictment; is that correct?
4 A. Yes, he did. I can't recall if he actually
5 had possession of it or his counsel, but I'm reasonably
6 sure that one or other of them had it, yes.
7 Q. And if on the videotape he's seen to have a
8 copy of the indictment in his hand, that would be of
9 assistance to be able to answer that question I take
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Yes. Which version of the indictment was
13 then available to you and to Mr. Kunarac as of the 13th
14 of March, 1998? Was that the original indictment?
15 A. Yes, I understood it was the original
16 indictment, yes.
17 Q. Are you aware, sir, that a subsequent
18 indictment has been filed in which paragraph numbers
19 have changed?
20 A. Yes. I'm aware of that.
21 Q. So where, for example -- I'm going to suggest
22 this for the benefit of the Court and the witness --
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
24 MR. RYNEVELD: I may be here giving evidence,
25 but for the assistance of the Court, my understanding
1 is that where the witness -- where the accused makes
2 reference to the indictment, where he talks about
3 paragraph 9.21, that is now paragraph 7.1 in the
4 existing indictment upon which he is now charged.
5 Similarly, where he makes reference to 9.10,
6 and this is the accused himself and his response
7 referring to that paragraph, my understanding is that
8 that is now contained in Count 5.3 of the current
9 indictment upon which he is facing charges. So 9.21 is
10 7.1. 9.10 is 5.3.
11 Q. Now, sir, if you could turn with me now to
12 page 5 of tape1b. Do I understand correctly that --
13 and I'm referring now to the area right where there is
14 a caption which there is an exchange between
15 Mr. Kunarac and Mr. Pantelic. In other words, he is
16 consulting with his counsel, is that correct, at that
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I had intended, with your assistance, to play
20 starting at that point on page 5 through page 6, 7, 8,
21 9, 10, and 11, to the end of tape1b. That's the audio
22 tape. And continuing on tape 2, side a, on the new --
23 so the third page 1, 2, 3, all the way to page 10.
24 So if we're using the counters, we would
25 start on that tape at 11:30:51, and concluding at the
1 bottom of page 10 at 12:38:07. That's what you had
2 intended to play for us?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I know this might be a bit a challenge to ask
5 you this question in the sense that you're not now
6 being assisted by the videotape, but in that portion of
7 tape to which we were wanting to draw the court's
8 attention, is it fair to say that that portion of tape
9 covers your discussion with him about what occurred at
10 Partizan, Ulica Osmana Djikica 16, that was the house
11 near the mosque, his encounter with an individual
12 referred to in these proceedings as DB, but referred by
13 him by her full first name, and the general topic of
14 women being in detention? Is that fair to say, that
15 that whole portion deals with discussions of those
17 A. Yes. That's a general summary of what's
18 contend in these pages, yes.
19 Q. If I'm being too general, let me know?
20 JUDGE MUMBA: No, Mr. Ryneveld, you're doing
21 it very well, because right now we don't know yet what
22 Mr. Prodanovic will file, so it is better to go into
23 the details.
24 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
25 Q. Now, sir, immediately thereafter, I was going
1 to ask you to turn to page 11 of tape 2a. There's only
2 a very brief break in the action before we recommence,
3 and we start playing -- we were to start playing again
4 at 12:39:49, and that's just a very short passage to
5 the end of that page, about half a page, stopping at
7 Now, if you just look at that half page,
8 would it be fair to say, sir, that I had intended to
9 ask you there about the accused's discussion, what
10 occurred with the witness who has now become known to
11 this Court as number 87?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. Thank you. Turning next, if I may, to the
14 next portion of tape that I intended to have you assist
15 us with. That would be on now the fourth side of the
16 tape, so that would be tape 2b, at the fourth page 2 in
17 this document. And near the bottom of the page, I
18 believe that one of the participants in the interview
19 who you identified as Patricia Sellers asks a question,
20 and that starts on the videotape at 12:46:52.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And goes the remainder of that page and about
23 halfway on page 3, the next page, and stops at
24 12:50:01. And would it be fair to say, sir, that in
25 that exchange, there is a discussion about an
1 individual who has since died, the allegations of
2 gang-rape and Mr. Kunarac's concerns about some of his
3 previous associates in relation to his personal safety?
4 A. Yes, that's right.
5 Q. This may well be, for the Court's benefit,
6 part of the portion that my learned friend has referred
8 Now, sir, I believe I am finished with the
9 March 13th, 1998 interview, Exhibit 67. If I can ask
10 you to turn with me to the first of the two next
11 transcripts, which is, for the Court's purposes, the
12 transcript Exhibit 69. And before I ask you the
13 contents of this particular document, I'm going to ask
14 you some preliminary questions about your different
15 role with respect to the next two transcripts.
16 Do I understand, sir, that by the 22nd of
17 April, 1999, you were no longer merely an investigator
18 but you were, in fact, the team leader for this
19 particular team, part of whose duties were the Foca
21 A. That's right.
22 Q. And in that capacity, you were, as it were,
23 in charge of individuals whose particular
24 responsibility it was to continue with these
1 A. Yes. I assigned people to particular
2 functions, yes.
3 Q. Were one of those people a gentleman called
4 Robert Kempf?
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. With the interview of April 22, 1999, did you
7 give instructions to Mr. Kempf in regard to the taking
8 of a further statement with respect to Mr. Kunarac?
9 A. Yes, I did. Mr. Kempf had, by that stage,
10 joined the team and was assigned to this case. He was
11 the investigator on the case and he was then assigned
12 to conduct the interview of Mr. Kunarac.
13 Q. Is Mr. Kempf still an employee of the ICTY
15 A. No, he's not.
16 Q. So he's not with the ICTY at the moment?
17 He's not here?
18 A. That's right. He resigned towards the end of
20 Q. All right. As his supervisor, did he make a
21 report to you concerning what went on, with respect to
22 other matters I'm sure, but in particular with respect
23 to the interviews of the 22nd and 28th and 23rd of
24 April 1999?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And have you had an opportunity to review, in
2 brief, or cursorily review the contents of the
3 interview conducted by Mr. Kempf?
4 A. Yes. I certainly don't have the in-depth
5 knowledge of that interview as I have of the one that I
6 personally conducted, but I've certainly had a look at
7 the transcripts, yes.
8 Q. And perhaps you can assist us, to your
9 understanding, which is perhaps similar to ours in that
10 you too have had an opportunity of looking at the
11 transcripts and have an opportunity to look at the
12 videos, who was present at that particular interview?
13 A. If I could refer to the transcript, please.
14 Q. Please, if you would and maybe we should just
15 start on page 1 of the transcript under -- this is now
16 22ap1. doc. Again, it was the same process, I take it,
17 an audio tape is made from the simultaneous videotape;
18 is that correct?
19 A. Yes, that's right.
20 Q. And before you even answer that question, do
21 you know where this interview took place?
22 A. I understand that it happened here.
23 Q. And "here" meaning in a room at the ICTY?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Sorry. Answer my first question if you
1 remember it. Who was there?
2 A. Mr. Kempf; Mr. Kunarac; Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff;
3 Barbara Hanel, who was an investigator; Mr. Slavisa
4 Prodanovic, who is the accused's or Mr. Kunarac's
6 Q. I understand his co-counsel Ms. Pilipovic was
7 there as well?
8 A. Yes, that's correct. And the interpreter was
9 a Ms. Pitesa.
10 Q. And all that is highlighted for us, I take it
11 in the first half of page 1 of the April 22nd
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. Do I understand correctly, sir, that in the
15 balance of those pages, Mr. Kempf again gave the
16 accused his rights and told him that everything was
17 being recorded, that an interpreter was being supplied;
18 is that correct?
19 A. Yes. The rights are given.
20 Q. And satisfied himself that they were was able
21 to communicate in a language that the accused
22 understood? I'm over on page 2 of that document now?
23 A. Yes, that's the case.
24 Q. At the bottom of page 2, do you know what
25 rights Mr. Kempf gave to the accused?
1 A. Yes. Mr. Kempf states: "You do not have to
2 say anything or answer my questions unless you want to
3 do so. Anything you say will be recorded and could be
4 used as evidence against later in the Tribunal
5 proceedings, including your trial. Do you
6 understand?" Mr. Kunarac respond, "Yes, I do."
7 Q. All right. And as you've already indicated
8 who was present, you're aware that his current counsel,
9 both his current counsel who are present in the
10 courtroom today were present during that interview?
11 A. That's my understanding, yes.
12 Q. Now, sir, I'd like you to turn with me,
13 because I'm going to start highlighting this, if I may,
14 to page 8 of the first tape, which should be 22ap1.doc
15 the very bottom of the page.
16 Was there a conversation had between your
17 investigators and Mr. Kunarac concerning some car
18 accidents that he was involved in?
19 A. Yes. In a response to suggestions from Mr.
20 Kempf, Mr. Kunarac responded: "There were two car
21 accidents during this critical period. The first one
22 occurred on the 8th of August between 0700 and 0730.
23 On the road Brijoni-Foca I was in a VW Golf car and I
24 had a head-on collision with a Magirus Deutz truck.
25 That's when I had the fractures on two ribs and my toes
1 and I had a number of contusions. And the second
2 accident took place."
3 Q. All right. Then there is some clarification
4 of about which year in August. Then there's August
5 1992, and then was there a discussion about a second
7 A. Yes. Mr. Kunarac states: "And about 20 days
8 later," so the 25th or the 26th of August, "then there
9 was a second accident. We were in the Armoured
10 Personnel Carrier which I returned. So actually then I
11 suffered a fracture of the right arm; that is to say,
12 the clip of rifle went into my wrist. Then I suffered
13 again the injury on my already broken ribs. This time
14 I was not alone in the vehicle. Three men were killed
15 and nine were injured."
16 Q. All right. The next highlighted area that I
17 was going to ask you to turn to would be on page 10 of
18 that first tape of the 22nd of April document. The
19 very top of the page, sir, did he indicate to you the
20 nature of the injuries he sustained in his arm in that
21 second car accident to which he made earlier
23 A. He states: "That after this accident, I
24 spent two or three days in the hospital, but on the
25 first accident I left the hospital the very same day.
1 I was just examined and plastered and then they let me
3 Q. And then there's a -- okay, that's fine. So
4 he was plastered at some point?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Excuse me. Turning, if I may, next to page
7 15 of that first tape. Was there a discussion to your
8 understanding about Kunarac's basic training and his
9 specialised military training, and in particular, I'm
10 now looking at -- did I say 15? I meant 14. My
11 apology. About halfway -- or a third of the way down
12 the page. After he is asked: "Did you perform
13 military compulsory service?" and the reply was yes and
14 there was a question about when and where. What was
15 the response?
16 A. Mr. Kunarac respond: "From 1980 to 1981 I
17 followed the training in Travnik, and the rest of my
18 compulsory service I served in Mostar. I was in the
19 engineering unit. I was a mechanic for mines and
20 explosives. So this is the abbreviation MIMEF, mines
21 and explosive mechanic for."
22 Q. And then I understand, at the bottom of that
23 page, he goes into further details about his uniform
24 and when he got certain military equipment and matters
25 of that nature; is that correct?
1 A. Yes. In the course of the discussion, he
2 says: "I was mobilised on the 21st for the first
3 time. I got the uniform and the rifle. This was in
4 former Yugoslavia. I was in a reserve unit for four
5 months. For four months until the 21st or the 25th of
6 December, 1991, then I was mobilised for the second
7 time on the 8th of April, 1992, until the 15th of May,
8 1992. I was demobbed from the Yugoslav army. On the
9 6th of June I came as a volunteer, as a person from
10 Republika Srpska, from the municipality of Foca, and I
11 joined the military units that actually had been in the
12 course of their formation, the military units of the
13 VRS." This is the shortest.
14 Q. All right. There are obviously other areas,
15 but I want to just highlight some of these. Let me ask
16 you next to turn with me to what I intended to play as
17 excerpt 5, and that would be -- that's from the
18 videotape. That would be page 18 of again that first
19 audio tape.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And it's, sir, the question starting with
22 "Robert," after the first paragraph.
23 MR. RYNEVELD: And for the Court's benefit,
24 the play on this tape is at 11:30:46, and I had
25 intended to play for -- it looks like two pages, to the
1 top of page 20 of the transcript, where he completes
2 his reply before Robert says, "Okay." That would be at
3 11:40:35. Again, this may only be helpful if your
4 counters match. If not, it's of no use to you at all,
5 but it's two pages.
6 Q. Now, sir, is it fair to say that in that
7 excerpt, the accused discusses that special
8 reconnaissance unit and the number of men in his unit,
9 among some other things?
10 A. Yes, that's right.
11 Q. And these videotape highlights that we have
12 selected, those are areas that we wish to draw to the
13 particular attention to the Court as they relate to
14 issues that we feel are relevant to the indictment.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Yes. On that same page, sir, i.e. 20, where
17 we had stopped, the last three sort of annotated
18 paragraphs where it starts with "Robert," we would have
19 started playing at 11:43:19, and that refers to
20 injuries to his father and his return to Foca; is that
21 correct? And that goes -- basically his response stops
22 about a third of way on the next page, 21?
23 A. Yes, that's correct.
24 Q. And the video counter number would have been
25 stopped at 11:46:11; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you a couple of
3 questions about that general area, sir. And to assist
4 both the Court and the witness, if you could turn to
5 page 24 of the first tape, about halfway down the
7 I'm going to ask you, sir: Did Mr. Kunarac
8 make any responses to the question of how his unit was
10 A. Yes. Can I have that reference to the
11 transcript again, sir.
12 Q. Yes. Page 24, about halfway through the
14 A. Of which document?
15 Q. We're still talking about the 22nd of April
16 1999 interview, and it still looks like tape 1 of the
17 audio tape. As a matter of fact, for that whole
18 interview, we only seem to have one audio tape, so we
19 don't have to worry about that?
20 A. Okay. That's in respond to Mr. Kempf's
21 question: "Where did the initiative to form a
22 reconnaissance unit come from?"
23 Q. That's correct, sir.
24 A. In response to that question, Mr. Kunarac
25 said: "The first time I received an order it was from
1 the brigade command. Actually, the brigade itself was
2 in the process of formation at that time, and I was
3 informed that the village of Jabuka was attacked.
4 Actually, the village of Jabuka is sort of a complex of
5 eight or nine smaller villages. So I was sent there to
6 see what was going on, and I had like ten men with me.
7 Actually, there were ten men who were at disposal at
8 that time who were free."
9 Q. All right. And over to page 25. Was there a
10 discussion with Mr. Kunarac concerning where weapons
11 and uniforms, et cetera, came from that were provided
12 for his men?
13 A. In response to the question from Mr. Kempf to
14 that effect, Mr. Kunarac said: "Myself and a lot of
15 people who came and who reported, we got the weapons
16 from the Livade warehouse in Foca. We got them from
17 the Serb forces in Foca municipalities, either from
18 civilian defence or Territorial Defence." He then
19 caries on discussing something else.
20 Q. All right. Did he describe his uniform or
21 any of the insignia? Again on that page.
22 A. Yes. When asked that question Mr. Kempf, he
23 said: "It was a two-part camouflage uniform. Okay.
24 We didn't have any insignia at the beginning, but later
25 on during the war, we had a round sign with
1 three-coloured flag with the inscription 'VRS' or the
2 'Army Republika Srpska'."
3 Q. All right. Turning me with you would,
4 please, to page 26, the bottom third of that page. I
5 believe my co-counsel Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff asked a
6 question. It had to do with the types of weapons that
7 were involved.
8 A. Yes. Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff asked the question:
9 "What kind of a weapon did you get?" Mr. Kunarac
10 responded: "I've had an automatic rifle with a
11 collapsible metal butt. This is all I needed for
12 weapons. I have never had any other firearm, not a
13 pistol or any other type of rifle. About four months I
14 had only this automatic rifle. While I was in the
15 field, I frequently had a knife because I needed to
16 extract the mines, to clear the area around the
18 Mr. Kempf then asked: "What was the calibre
19 of the automatic rifle?" Mr. Kunarac responded: "7.6
20 millimetres. This was an automatic rifle of a
21 Kalashnikov type, 7.6, an assault rifle that
22 the Yugoslav army had."
23 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The registrar
24 would like to ask the Prosecutor to slow down and to
25 make a breaks between the questions and answers because
1 it is really too fast, and this would assist the
2 interpreters in their work; otherwise, they will not
4 MR. RYNEVELD: My apologies.
5 The danger when interviewing a witness in
6 English is to forget all about translation, and I do
7 apologise to the interpreters for that. It's not that
8 I don't have enough time to finish this witness today.
9 Q. Would you turn with me please, sir, to
10 page 35 of this transcript. I'm skipping some now.
11 Was there a discussion, starting at the top
12 of the page, about the means by which Mr. Kunarac
13 communicated with his superiors? And you can pause in
14 your response, if you wish.
15 A. In response to a question from Mr. Kempf,
16 which was: "How do you communicate with your
17 superior?" Mr. Kunarac responded: "While I was in the
18 field, personally I had a radio transmitter, because
19 such a task, a completion of such a task is not even
20 conceivable without any means of communication. In the
21 beginning we had our RUP stations, RUP 3 and RUP 12,
22 and we later on we had smaller radio transmitters."
23 Q. Thank you. Would you turn with me next to
24 page 37. Oh, wait a minute. I may be wrong here.
25 Thirty -- my tab is on the wrong page. Thirty-six. My
2 Did he indicate to your investigator, sir,
3 where the brigade headquarters were located?
4 A. Yes. Mr. Kempf puts the question: "You
5 mentioned that there was a brigade command post in the
6 building which is now a religious academy. Is this the
7 former prison for females at Velecevo?" Mr. Kunarac
8 responded: "Yes."
9 Q. Then, as I understand it, he went on to
10 describe details of those premises. Is that correct?
11 A. Yes, he does.
12 Q. Turning next, if we could, please, to
13 page 39. Was there an ongoing discussion here about
14 the brigade headquarters building? About halfway
15 through the page, sir.
16 A. Yes. Mr. Kunarac says: "So this is the
17 complex of female prison." Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff asks:
18 "Were there any soldiers housed there or was it just
19 purely the command post?" Mr. Kunarac said: "This was
20 purely military command of the brigade. There were
21 actually located all the time, 10 to 15 military police
22 officers that I mentioned before, and also about
23 20 security guards for the premises itself. This is
24 the place what I was told it was, and this is the place
25 I was meeting with brigade commanders. I am not aware
1 of any other function of that place. It was not used
2 as either prison or any other form of a detention
4 Q. Turning next, if you would, with me, to the
5 very bottom of page 40. Was there some discussion
6 about a different command post at Buk Bijela?
7 A. Yes. Mr. Kempf asks: "Can you tell me
8 anything about the command post at Buk Bijela?"
9 Mr. Kunarac responded: "In the shortest, this was the
10 command of the 4th Battalion."
11 Q. And over the page, sir, top of page 41, did
12 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff ask anything about the Foca
14 A. Yes. She asks: "'Of the Foca Brigade' is
15 the question." Mr. Kunarac responded: "Yes, of the
16 Foca Brigade. As I said before, the brigade consisted
17 of five battalions. So this is the command post for
18 one of those battalions."
19 Q. All right. Now, sir, we had intended, at
20 that point, to turn next to the transcript page 43 and
21 start the video at 14:40:05, where there is discussion
22 about the command post at the Miljevina Hotel. Is that
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. And we had intended to play the balance of
1 43, 44, right through to -- do you know the number?
2 I've got it here -- page 51, halfway through the page,
3 with the video stop number at 15:16:34.
4 Now, please correct me if I'm wrong, sir, but
5 as I understand it, the purpose of playing that area
6 was to bring to the Chamber's attention the discussions
7 about the command post at Miljevina Hotel, the chain of
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. The command post at Velecevo.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. His various missions.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And his ability to select members for his
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. All right. Now, even though I'm glossing
18 over this in this way, these are areas of obvious --
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Importance.
20 MR. RYNEVELD: -- importance in the view of
21 the Prosecution.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes.
23 MR. RYNEVELD:
24 Q. We had intended next, sir, if I remember
25 correctly, to turn to -- I seem to have lost the tab
1 stop here. Page 54. Thank you. I have still stickies
2 here but -- no, I'm missing one.
3 I see that it's about three minutes to
4 eleven. There is a video excerpt about fighting at
5 Rogoj and the Kalinovik Brigade that I wanted to find,
6 and I seem to have lost my tab in terms of what page
7 that is.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Perhaps we can rise early and
9 give you an opportunity to rearrange your documents. I
10 realise that we changed the procedure suddenly.
11 MR. RYNEVELD: I've just lost the sticky.
12 That's what's happened. Thank you.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: So maybe we can rise now. It's
14 three minutes, but we will resume at 1130 hours.
15 --- Recess taken at 10.58 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 11.28 a.m.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll proceed.
18 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Before I ask the next question of the witness, I might
20 say that the reason I couldn't find my next start is
21 because it was subsumed in the pages that I had
22 earlier given a reference to.
23 So I think I told you that we were going to
24 play all the way to page 51. Actually, I meant to stop
25 at halfway on page 48, at tab 15 -- not tab. Well,
1 counter 15:04:23, and then skip through to the bottom
2 of page 49 where we intended to start again.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
4 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
5 Q. Thank you. If I can then would draw the
6 witness's attention to the bottom of 49. And we would
7 have normally started playing at 15:08:18.
8 Witness, I need to remind both you and I that
9 although you and I are speaking truly simultaneously,
10 apparently the translation takes a little while in
11 between so that other people can hear. So if you would
12 pause after I finish speaking, and I will try to
13 remember to do the same.
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. Bottom of page 49, sir. Was there a
16 discussion between your investigator and Mr. Kunarac
17 about basically his role in Rogoj?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is it fair to say, sir, that in that excerpt
20 which starts at the bottom of page 49 through page 50
21 and to halfway through page 51, he discusses basically
22 the fighting at Rogoj between the parties to the armed
23 conflict and discusses as well the Kalinovik Brigade?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... mentions
1 dates and times and certain details about that
2 incident; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, that's correct.
4 Q. We would have played until halfway through
5 page 51 and stopped the tape at 15:16:34; is that
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. We were next going to turn to our ninth video
9 excerpt, which was to be located at page 54, the bottom
10 two responses basically at the bottom of page 54, the
11 question by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, and start the play at
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Would it be fair to say, sir, that this
15 extract discusses in some detail who the accused refer
16 to in his previous comments as "his men," more details
17 about the premises and what went on at Ulica Osmana
18 Djikica 16, the involvement of the Montenegrins from
19 Niksic, and the discussion about the witness referred
20 to by the pseudonym FWS-75 and his comments about her?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Sir, if you would turn with me to page -- I'm
23 sorry. Did I indicate that we would stop at the bottom
24 of -- I'm sorry, a third of the way down 56 and stop at
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Might we now turn to the following page, page
3 57, about halfway through the page. Is there a
4 discussion there, in response to a question from my
5 co-counsel, about the night the mosque, the Aladza
6 mosque, was blown up? Can you tell us about that?
7 A. Yes. Mr. Kunarac was asked: "Do you recall
8 when this mosque was blown up?" He said: "At the
9 moment it was blown up, I was on the Velecevo-Foca
10 road. I was close to the school centre, education
11 centre. I was in a car coming back from Velecevo. It
12 was on the 2nd of August, about half past eleven or
13 about midnight or the time between. We were coming
14 back because we left the vehicle with the anti-aircraft
15 machine gun, and I was travelling back towards Foca
16 when that happened. I don't know who did it, but I
17 went to the brigade commander after that, and I know
18 for sure that this was not done by the Engineering
19 Unit, which had already been created and was the part
20 of the brigade. This was a unit of about ten men, and
21 I found all of them there. I spent" --
22 Q. Now, following that there is a further
23 discussion about clarification of that statement. Then
24 I would like you to turn, if you would, with me,
25 please, to page 63. Again in response to my
1 co-counsel's question -- it's about halfway down the
2 page -- it indicates, "Hildegard: Let me ask you
3 another question." Start playing -- we would start
4 playing at 16:00:29, for the balance of that page and
5 the next page about halfway, stopping at 16:05:36.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. In that excerpt, sir, was there a discussion
8 with Mr. Kunarac about the Independent Zaga Detachment
9 and again further involvement about Montenegrins?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. The bottom of that same page, was there a
12 discussion about a group known as (redacted)?
13 A. Yes, there was.
14 Q. Can you briefly summarise what that
15 discussion was about? It's the bottom of that page and
16 over the top of the next page.
17 A. In summary, Mr. Kunarac talks about the man
18 (redacted), gives his assessment of this man.
19 Q. All right. And how about the group itself?
20 I'm now, in particular, referring to page 65, the
21 group. The question from Mr. Kempf was: "Was it a
22 military formation similar to yours?" Perhaps you
23 could just read that answer.
24 A. The answer of Mr. Kunarac was: "Well, he was
25 a member of a military unit that was a little bit wider
1 and bigger than mine, and they had some special
2 purposes. It was one of the Intervention Units. Each
3 battalion had one Intervention Unit, and such a unit
4 was built up usually from 15 to 30 men. They were
5 selected from the battalion among 350 or 400 men, and
6 as the name suggests, the Intervention Unit was used to
7 intervene in a case of attack, to be the first one to
8 try to prevent the army, because at that time the Serb
9 side was completely on the defensive. We call it, in
10 military terms, we call it the active defence. We were
11 observing the movements of the enemy, and we were
12 getting ready for a possible attack. So in case of
13 attack, those units were meant to take the first impact
14 on them. Quite often those units were free or they
15 were on standby to take the first. To respond first in
16 a case of an attack. Other units had a sort of shift
17 organisation. They were like five days in the field
18 and five days at home."
19 Q. Thank you. Coming to, I think, the last
20 reference in this transcript, sir, at page 67, about
21 the top third of the page, Mr. Kempf asked about an
22 individual referred to as DP3. Can you indicate
23 whether or not Mr. Kunarac responded and perhaps just
24 the four lines of response for us?
25 A. Yes. He responded: "He was – DP3 was
3 (redacted). After
4 him, there were other people, other men who led the
5 group, but I would ask you not to speak too much about
6 that group."
7 Q. Although I indicated, sir, that was the last
8 reference, I have skipped a page. I'm sorry. Would
9 you go back to page 66 with me. You see the top of
10 that page there is a -- well, just the top of that
11 page. There is a discussion there. The first half of
12 that talks about DP1 and (redacted).
13 Can you just summarise -- or rather than
14 summarise, can you just give that portion halfway
15 through the page for us, please?
16 A. Mr. Kempf asks Mr. Kunarac about (redacted)
17 (redacted). Mr. Kunarac said: "Yes. This was also a
18 group. DP1 was in a group." He went on to say:
19 "They called themselves Guard, and the Guard would be
20 the Elite Unit."
21 Q. Was there a clarification by
22 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff about what (redacted)
24 A. Yes. She draws Mr. Kunarac to the fact:
25 "Some people referred to (redacted) as military
1 police. Is that correct?" Mr. Kunarac responded:
2 "They called themselves military police, but as far as
3 I know, they have never been a part of the military
4 police." Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff went on: "So the military
5 policemen you mentioned this morning, they have nothing
6 to do with these people?" Mr. Kunarac replied: "No.
7 This was a completely different group. They were very
8 correct and very nice people."
9 Q. I see. At the bottom of at that page as
10 well, there's a reference to White Eagles. Do you know
11 anything about that or was there a response to that?
12 A. Yes. Mr. Kempf asked Mr. Kunarac did he,
13 Mr. Kunarac, ever work with that group the White
14 Eagles. Mr. Kunarac responded: "Well, the term 'White
15 Eagles' was used, but there was a Reserve Battalion
16 composed, built up of retired men, elderly men retired,
17 and we called them White Eagles balls of their white
19 Q. And just to back up one more page to 65.
20 There was a discussion at the bottom of that page about
21 where DP1 belonged to, and over the top of the page --
22 I guess I started at the top of 66. I should have
23 started at the bottom of 65. Can you just read those
24 two lines to us as well?
25 A. Sorry, from the bottom of 65?
1 Q. Sixty-five. We've already done top of 66,
2 but I didn't back you up far enough.
3 A. Mr. Kempf asks about the DP6 group.
4 Mr. Kunarac responded: "DP6 is a man I
5 know. He was in Foca with a number of men, (redacted)
8 Q. And the question was about whether DP1
9 belonged there, and then the clarification was that he
10 was with (redacted), is that right, and we've
11 already read that?
12 A. Yes, that's correct.
13 Q. All right. Thank you very much. Might we
14 now turn to a very few selections from the April 23rd
15 interview. That would be transcript Exhibit
16 number 71.
17 MR. RYNEVELD: For the Court's benefit, I
18 have only four references in this whole transcript.
19 Q. First of all, sir, if you would turn --
20 again, this is the following day. The same
21 participants, I take it?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. At the bottom of -- sorry. The participants
24 of the following day's interview start at page 1, and I
25 believe Mr. Kempf again is introducing himself.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And at the top of page 2 he introduces the
3 balance of the people in the room which will be seen
4 actually on this video; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And they include -- perhaps you can just tell
7 us who was there.
8 A. All right. Mr. Kunarac, Mr. Kempf,
9 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, Barbara Hanel, Slavisa Prodanovic.
10 Q. And I see Ms. Pilipovic and the interpreter
11 are both there as well?
12 A. And the interpreter as well. The same group
13 of people, yes.
14 Q. All right. And they continue on basically in
15 the discussions on the following day; is that correct?
16 A. That's right.
17 Q. All right. If I may turn first, if I would,
18 please, to page 21 of this -- this one starts a new
19 numbering with 1. So page 21, please. And the video
20 would start playing at the counter 11:59:43, and it
21 continues to the following page, about two-thirds of
22 the way down, stopping with the words: "In a house in
23 Foca ...", stop at 12:02:06.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In that brief video extract, sir, do I
1 understand correctly that there is a discussion by
2 Mr. Kunarac concerning the Kalinovik primary school,
3 reference to people who are referred to in these
4 proceedings are FWS-191 and FWS-192, and messages that
5 were passed between these individuals?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. Skipping a few pages then to
8 page 24. We had intended to play at counter 12:07:53,
9 which is at the bottom of the page, with Mr. Kunarac's
10 reply starting with the words: "So when I came to Foca
11 about 2300 hours on the 2nd of August ...", through to
12 a number of pages to page 28, about halfway through the
13 page, where the last phrase is: "I don't know who
14 brought them." No. I'm sorry. Stop it at: "I needed
15 to check the information she gave me." Is that
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. And that is at counter number 12:24:00.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, is it fair to say, sir, that what we
21 attempted to highlight in that excerpt is more
22 information concerning the person referred to in these
23 proceedings as FWS-191, a traffic accident, the house
24 in Trnovace, and Witness FWS-86, among other things?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Those would be the highlights that we would
2 wish to draw to the Court's attention from those pages?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you. Now, immediately after that
5 video, at about halfway on page 28, did the accused
6 Mr. Kunarac say when and where the women came from?
7 A. Yes. He states: "They were brought from the
8 school, from the school building on the 2nd of August.
9 I wasn't there when they were brought. I don't know
10 who brought them."
11 Q. All right. And then I have one more video
12 reference and one more question for you with respect to
13 the transcripts. At page 29, halfway the page, my
14 co-counsel asks a question about, "Let's just return to
15 that first occasion when you met her." That, my
16 understanding is, refers to FWS-86. That starts --
17 that video starts at 12:27:32, and would go the balance
18 of that page for a few pages until two-thirds of the
19 way down page 32, with the -- conclude with the words,
20 "This is what I can say about this matter so far,"
21 uttered by Mr. Kunarac?
22 A. Yes, that's right.
23 Q. And we would stop the video at 12:38:33?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Having said, that sir, is it safe to say that
1 a very general description of what that talks about is
2 DP6 and a person referred to by the nickname
3 of (redacted) and discussions had with Witness FWS-86?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Finally, sir, with respect to this matter,
6 would you turn with me to page 42? About halfway the
7 page, Mr. Kempf asks a question about other people in
8 Partizan, and it refers to -- in context of the
9 previous exchange that went on about the village. I
10 believe there is a reference to an individual coming
11 from Trosanj and there is a discussion about other
13 Was there a discussion about where the other
14 women in Partizan were from, about halfway the page?
15 Now, when you read that response, would you take care
16 not to read the names. The initials of the first
17 person referred to is DB, and the second person
18 referred to is 87. Do you see that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Keeping those guidelines, would you please
21 just read that response, that one paragraph. And that
22 DB is referred to twice, sir.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 A. Mr. Kunarac's response was, "I don't know. I
1 spoke to DB but to nobody else. I think that most of
2 them were from that village. There was approximately
3 50 in there, mostly women, children. So when I went to
4 Partizan, I didn't know anybody over there, and then I
5 asked for the people, for women who spoke to the
6 journalist, and then as nobody replied, I took my
7 notebook from my pocket and I said I need to talk to
8 DB, 87, and two other names. I need to talk to those
9 who say that Zaga and Zaga's men took them out. I
10 stepped into the hall. I may have taken three or four
11 steps inside and that's when I called the names."
12 Q. Unless my co-counsel have anything else,
13 those are the selected portions of the three
14 transcripts that I wish to draw to the Court's
16 May I just check with my colleagues. I have
17 just a couple of other questions for this witness in
18 general, not relating to these transcripts.
19 Sir, do I also understand that in your
20 capacity as team leader of this file, that you also
21 participated in attempted photo board identification of
22 some of the witnesses with respect to photo line-ups of
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And, sir, because you would have names, do I
1 understand correctly that you participated in some five
2 of these photo board line-ups?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. And please correct me if I'm wrong, my
5 understanding of the people -- do you have the numbers,
6 by any chance, so that you can check? I'm going to put
7 a suggestion to you, unless my friends disagree. Do I
8 understand correctly that you were involved in Witness
9 number 50?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Fifty-one?
12 A. Excuse me. I'll just check if I have the
13 numbers, if I could. 50, 51, yes.
14 Q. Sixty-one?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Sixty-two?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And 183.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you, sir. I have no further questions
21 of you at this time.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Mr. Kunarac, any
23 cross-examination -- I'm sorry, Mr. Prodanovic.
24 Cross-examination, please.
25 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
1 Your Honour.
2 Cross-examined by Mr. Prodanovic:
3 Q. I am interested, sir, at whose initiative
4 this first interview was given? Who initiated it?
5 A. I understood that it was initiated or
6 requested by the Office of the Prosecutor. That was my
7 understanding, and agreed to by Defence.
8 Q. And my second question is the following: Can
9 you tell me why the second interview came about? At
10 whose initiative?
11 A. I don't know the answer to that question. I
12 believe it would be the Office of the Prosecutor also,
13 but really, I don't know. I don't know. Not for the
14 second interview.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no
17 further questions, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Just to be complete;
19 Mr. Kolesar?
20 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I have no
21 questions, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic.
23 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your
24 permission, Your Honours, I have several short
25 questions of this witness.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can go ahead.
2 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
3 Your Honour.
4 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic:
5 Q. Good morning, sir. You said, at the
6 beginning of your testimony, that you have served in
7 the police force for 23 years. Is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I do apologise. Unless this is confidential,
10 can you tell us your rank?
11 A. Yes, my rank when I left New Zealand was
12 Detective Senior Sergeant.
13 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, during those 23
14 years of service in the police force, what jobs did you
15 perform? Let me make this clearer. Did you work in
16 the traffic department, in the crime squad, crime
17 department, that kind of thing?
18 A. Most of my service was in connection with
19 criminal investigation, which generally involved the
20 investigation of serious crime.
21 Q. Within the frameworks of your work in the
22 police force, did your work include the identification
23 of criminals via photo boards or photo line-ups?
24 A. Yes, it did.
25 Q. I don't need a detailed answer to my next
1 question, but I would be interested in knowing whether
2 for that type of identification there are any rules and
3 regulations which you adhere to. Let me make myself
4 clearer. Are there any rules which state, for example,
5 the following: That a certain witness will be shown a
6 series of different photographs or has to be shown a
7 series of different photographs? Do you try and take
8 these photographs from the same angle? Are there any
9 rules as to how this is conducted, this photo board and
10 photo line-up is conducted when you wish to get a
11 positive identification?
12 A. Yes, there are certainly rules, both where I
13 come from and here, and those rules generally are very
14 similar and most of it's common sense, really. There
15 normally has to be a certain number of photographs.
16 The photographs can't be too dissimilar. When the
17 photographs are shown to a particular witness, you
18 cannot invite any comment one way or the other. You
19 clearly have to accurately record the identification if
20 it occurs or the non-identification if it occurs.
21 Generally, if you're showing photo boards to a number
22 of witnesses, if there is any chance that those
23 witnesses would have contact in between times, you
24 would normally show a different set of photographs.
25 Those generally are the rules that I'm certainly used
2 Q. Very well. If I understand you correctly,
3 then those rules, in principle, and their basic premise
4 are used in your work here at the Tribunal; is that
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you?
8 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
9 I now have a somewhat lengthy question, but with your
10 permission, I should like to go ahead and ask it of the
11 witness, if I may.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please. Go ahead.
13 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Q. Bearing in mind everything that we have heard
15 in your testimony so far, your experience, the rules
16 that exist in that sphere of work, let us take a
17 hypothetical situation. Individual A has the task of
18 identifying person B. Person A is shown three
19 photographs. On all three photographs, we have the
20 same individual who is there to be identified.
21 Would you consider that kind of
22 identification valid?
23 A. The same person and three photographs, is
24 that what you're saying?
25 Q. Yes. And only those three photographs are
2 A. No. I wouldn't consider that valid
4 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I
5 have no further questions.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination,
7 Mr. Ryneveld?
8 MR. RYNEVELD: Following from that last
10 Re-examined by Mr. Ryneveld:
11 Q. Sir, in this hypothetical situation, is there
12 a difference in procedure between an identification
13 process and a recognition process? In other words,
14 asking a witness to identify someone that they may
15 recognise from a series of, say, hypothetically 12
16 photographs or a different process known as a
17 recognition process? Is there a difference?
18 A. Yes. Well, I understand there is a
19 difference. The circumstances I was discussing with
20 counsel, I was referring to a clear identification
21 process where a witness is endeavouring to identify
22 somebody who committed some crime. As I understand, a
23 recognition process, as opposed to an identification
24 process, is where the person shown in the photo is
25 known to the person you were showing the photos to.
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. That's my understanding of the situation.
3 Q. Yes. And in the same hypothetical situation,
4 assuming that the person had indicated that they knew
5 an individual A, putting the same hypothetical my
6 friend put to you, i.e. the person is then shown three
7 different photographs of a person to see whether or not
8 she recognises that person as the one that she has
9 identified as someone she knew, what can you say about
10 to process in those circumstances?
11 A. Well, those circumstances are different. If
12 the witness has said and the evidence is clear that the
13 person in the photos is known to the person viewing the
14 photos, I would regard that process as being quite
16 Q. Thank you.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much,
18 Mr. Simpson. We are through with you. You are free to
20 THE WITNESS: Thank you, ma'am.
21 MR. RYNEVELD: As intimated, I am out of
22 witnesses at this point, having calculate we would have
23 taken the balance of the day with a slightly different
24 process that was actually adopted. My apologies to the
1 JUDGE MUMBA: No, Mr. Ryneveld, you don't
2 have to apologise. The Judges are very happy to go and
3 read other briefs.
4 Thank you. So we've come to the end of these
5 proceedings. You have something else?
6 MR. RYNEVELD: I've just been reminded by
7 co-counsel that there is an issue she would like to
8 raise concerning protective measures for a witness.
9 Might we just take a moment to deal with that?
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Simpson can go.
11 [The witness withdrew]
12 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
13 MS. KUO: Your Honours, on April 18th, we or,
14 rather, the 19th, when we come back from the Plenary
15 Session and our break, we intend to call Witness AS.
16 And as she was added to the witness list after trial
17 began, we did not formally request the specific
18 protective measures for her testimony, and so at this
19 point we would like to orally move this Court to grant
20 her the protective measures that she has requested,
21 which is voice and image alteration. So that would be
22 identical to the other protected rape victims.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Voice and image alteration
25 MS. KUO: Yes, in addition to the
2 JUDGE MUMBA: I would like to hear from the
3 Defence counsels whether there is any objection.
4 Witness AS, who is the next witness the next
5 time we sit, is seeking voice and image alteration in
6 addition to the confidentiality.
7 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
8 as far as the Defence for Mr. Kunarac is concerned, we
9 have no objections to make. As far as I was able to
10 understand the proceedings, Witness AS does not have
11 anything to do with my client actually, but I leave my
12 colleagues to speak for themselves.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Mr. Kolesar.
14 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
15 the Kovac defence has nothing against the necessary
16 protective measures to be taken in respect of this
17 witness because that has become standard practice.
18 However, as I am on my feet, may I add asking
19 else as well, please? When during the examination of
20 Witness 75 and cross-examination, there was an incident
21 that took place because those of us who know the
22 Serbo-Croatian language and Bosnian language, we know
23 that the witness answered, "I do not know," to the
24 question posed her. My legal colleagues of the
25 Prosecution intervened and said that the witness had
1 answered, "No," rather than, "I do not know," and we
2 were promised that by the end of this session we would
3 receive the audio tape and the videotape as to what was
4 actually recorded.
5 According to the oral information we received
6 from the Registry, we are expecting to get a written
7 note from the interpreters and translators. This was
8 not what the Defence had asked for, and we should like
9 to overcome this problem, and perhaps we could do this
10 before the 19th when we go on to examine the witness.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: To do "this." To do what? I
12 don't think I get you. To do what before the 19th?
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Maybe I can ask the
15 registrar's assistance.
16 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The registrar
17 would like to state that on the day of -- on that
18 particular day, the audio cassette in B/C/S and the
19 English transcript were submitted to the Translation
20 Service in order to get any comments from the head of
21 the Interpretation Service.
22 This morning, orally, that particular person
23 confirmed to me that Witness 75 had answered, "I don't
24 know," to the question asked to her, and that we would
25 soon receive, in the afternoon actually, we would
1 receive an official memo from the Interpretation
2 Service in order to confirm what I've just told you.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?
4 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I'm satisfied
5 with that answer. Thank you.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic, on AS protective
7 measures, any comments?
8 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No comments
9 or objections, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Anything else?
11 MR. RYNEVELD: No thank you.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: So we've come to the end of our
13 proceedings for this week. Our next sitting is on the
14 19th and 20th of April, and the sittings will be at the
15 same times, 0930 hours in the morning.
16 My understanding on the protective measures,
17 when there are no objections, are that they are
18 granted. So I just have to make it formally clear.
19 All right. The Court will adjourn.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
21 12.10 p.m., to be reconvened on
22 Wednesday, the 19th day of April, 2000
23 at 9.30 a.m.