Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1903

          1                 Thursday, 6th April 2000          2                 [Open session]

          3                 [The accused entered court]

          4                 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

          5            JUDGE MUMBA:  May the registrar please call

          6  the case.

          7            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case

          8  IT-96-23-T, IT-96-23/1-T, the Prosecutor versus

          9  Dragoljub Kunarac, Radomir Kovac, and Zoran.

         10            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  The Prosecution, please.

         11            MR. RYNEVELD:  Yes, Madam President and Your

         12  Honours.  There are a few matters we thought might be

         13  appropriately dealt with at this point.  I can tell you

         14  that it is our intention to call Mr. Brett Simpson, who

         15  was one of the investigators who did the interviews

         16  with the accused Kunarac.  Before I get into that

         17  issue, however, my colleague, Ms. Kuo, who has had

         18  conduct of the -- of a previous witness, has an issue

         19  concerning the cross-examination and Rule 96, and

         20  perhaps she might address the Chamber on that issue at

         21  this point, if you would care to hear about that now.

         22            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.

         23            MR. RYNEVELD:  Thank you.

         24            MS. KUO:  Your Honours, this issue is

         25  prompted by the cross-examination of Witness 87

Page 1904

          1  yesterday by Mr. Kolesar, in which he asked Witness 87

          2  questions regarding a letter that was allegedly sent

          3  and signed with a heart.  At the moment there is

          4  nothing about that letter actually in evidence because

          5  the witness simply denied any knowledge of it, but we

          6  are concerned, if this question is to be raised in the

          7  future, that the Rule 96(3) be observed, and that

          8  states that any evidence of consent, and that appears

          9  to be what the Defence is alleging here, be presented

         10  to the Court in camera before it is entered in evidence

         11  and the Court find that it is relevant and credible.

         12            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you.  I'm waiting for the

         13  interpretation to be completed.

         14            Yes.  Mr. Kolesar, you understood the

         15  concerns of the Prosecution regarding the procedure in

         16  these cases and in Rule 96.  I'm not expecting you to

         17  say anything if you don't wish to.  I just want to make

         18  it clear to you that the Prosecution have raised these

         19  concern regarding the matter they've talked about.

         20            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

         21  within the framework of the cross-examination, I did

         22  put this question to the witness, and as I received a

         23  negative response, I thought there was no need for me

         24  to investigate any further.  So regardless of Rule 96,

         25  I see no reason for concern by the Prosecution.

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          1            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you very much,

          2  Mr. Kolesar.  Yes, we'll proceed.

          3            MR. RYNEVELD:  Thank you, Your Honour.

          4  Before I call the next witness, I should perhaps

          5  indicate to the Court what our intention is with

          6  respect to the calling of the evidence concerning the

          7  statements.  Part of it is a matter of timing.  We

          8  didn't want any witnesses from other countries here

          9  prior to the break, so we thought that this was the

         10  most appropriate time to play the videos.

         11            I can tell you that there are some five

         12  videotapes, copies of which have been distributed to

         13  Defence counsel.  They are five videotapes which deal

         14  with the first interview which took place on the

         15  13th of March, 1988 [sic], and then -- did I say

         16  1988?  1998.  Slip of the tongue -- and the remaining

         17  four videotapes deal with the second interview taken a

         18  year and a month later.  That would be April 23rd and

         19  24th of 1999.

         20            Having said all of that, there are about

         21  18 hours worth of tapes.  Needless to say, it is not my

         22  intention to play all 18 hours worth of tapes.  That

         23  would take well in excess of a full court week.

         24            So what the proposal is is that I'm going to,

         25  with the Court's consent -- we have excerpted

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          1  highlights of those statements which would take about

          2  three and a half hours of playing time.  In other

          3  words, we can manage to accomplish that, I think, in

          4  about one court day.  There will be transcripts.

          5            As you know, all the tapes and all the

          6  transcripts are in evidence, so that is the complete

          7  evidence.  In other words, my friends and the Chamber

          8  have the entire conversations.  But whether you want me

          9  to go through the process of playing all 18 hours and

         10  watching the transcript, that might be not an effective

         11  use of time and it might, in some instances, be of a

         12  bit of a mind-numbing exercise.  So I thought we would

         13  do it this way.

         14            The Defence, of course, can, on

         15  cross-examination, highlight any portions of the tape

         16  that they wish.

         17            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.

         18            MR. RYNEVELD:  That brings us to the next

         19  issue, and that is redaction.  There are in these tapes

         20  some names mentioned, and my friend, Mr. Prodanovic,

         21  who is largely concerned, because of course it's his

         22  client, has indicated that he would be bringing on an

         23  application this morning -- he told me that at close of

         24  business yesterday -- that these tapes be played, as I

         25  understand it, either in closed or private session.  I

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          1  will let him raise that issue.

          2            My understanding is that the purpose of his

          3  application is that in these tapes, names of some

          4  witnesses that they may wish to call, he may be wanting

          5  to bring on protective-measure application for those

          6  people.  I'll let him make his application.

          7            I can tell you, however, that with respect to

          8  the March 13th, 1998 interview, the first of the tapes

          9  that we will be playing, we have redacted the names of

         10  the presently protected witnesses; in other words, the

         11  name will be cut out.

         12            JUDGE MUMBA:  That is the Prosecution

         13  witness.

         14            MR. RYNEVELD:  That is the Prosecution

         15  witness.  And to my understanding, the only name that

         16  my friend might be concerned about named in that

         17  interview is an individual who is no longer alive.

         18            When we get to the April interviews, there

         19  are indeed -- at this point, Mr. Kunarac is naming

         20  names.  In the first statement he's careful not to name

         21  names and says he doesn't want to name names and is

         22  quite judicious in not doing so.

         23            So I'll let my friend raise this issue, but I

         24  thought I'd give you the big picture about the two

         25  different statements and the two different concerns and

Page 1908

          1  how we might meet those, but I shouldn't presuppose

          2  what it is my friend wants.

          3            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Ryneveld, you did say that

          4  the transcripts were in evidence.  This may be a slip

          5  of the tongue but, so far as I know, they haven't been

          6  tendered, have they?  They are in the books and they

          7  are called an exhibit in the rather curious fashion

          8  that's followed here, but they are not, as I understand

          9  it, in evidence.

         10            MR. RYNEVELD:  Your Honour is absolutely

         11  right.  What I ought to do is when I commence these

         12  proceedings, is to make an application, with my

         13  friend's consent, that the items that have been

         14  pre-marked as intended exhibits go in by consent both

         15  in terms of the tapes and in terms of the transcript in

         16  their entirety, and that for the purpose of this

         17  exercise, we are highlighting portions of the evidence

         18  in accordance with what I understood the Chamber asked

         19  us to do during a Pre-Trial Conference whereby we were

         20  asked to highlight portions of evidence to which we

         21  wished to draw your attention.  This is in compliance

         22  with that direction.

         23                 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

         24            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  After our deliberations,

         25  we are of the view that there is no need for the Trial

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          1  Chamber to view the tapes during the proceedings or

          2  indeed to go through the transcripts during the

          3  proceedings.  We have got the tapes and the

          4  transcripts, and if the Defence will consent to have

          5  them produced or whatever they will say if the Trial

          6  Chamber rules that they will be produced into evidence,

          7  then that's okay, we can deal with them at our own

          8  time, we can deal with the documentation at our own

          9  time.

         10            Of course, the Defence will be given an

         11  opportunity to express their views and deal with

         12  potential witnesses.  That will be a matter for them.

         13  But for us, we are not interested in viewing the tapes

         14  during the proceedings, going through the details.

         15            The Prosecution may call their witness simply

         16  to deal with the formalities that this happened on

         17  such-and-such a date and that sort of thing, not

         18  highlighting even in the tapes.  That would take too

         19  much time when, in fact, we shall have them.

         20            MR. RYNEVELD:  I understand.  Just so I'm

         21  clear about what you're saying, you wish me to call the

         22  witness, go through some of the formalities of actually

         23  entering the tapes and the transcript into evidence

         24  should that be permitted.  You do then not wish me to

         25  call the witness's attention to the highlighted

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          1  portions of the evidence?  You're not asking for that?

          2            JUDGE MUMBA:  No.  He can describe without

          3  viewing the tape, because he will say video number

          4  so-and-so was taken during such-and-such a time.  In

          5  that videotape, this and that is shown or depicted.

          6            MR. RYNEVELD:  All right.

          7            JUDGE MUMBA:  That sort of description.

          8            MR. RYNEVELD:  I might just give the Court an

          9  indication, however, that in terms of the scheduling of

         10  witnesses, this will take considerably less time, and

         11  I'm not sure we have any other witnesses in the wings.

         12  So as long as you're aware that although this is an

         13  extremely -- I think obviously it's welcome news.

         14  Nevertheless, I want the Court to be aware that we had

         15  anticipated that we would take all day with this

         16  witness.  We can probably do this in one session.

         17            JUDGE MUMBA:  The Court is very much aware of

         18  that.

         19            MR. RYNEVELD:  Thank you.

         20            JUDGE MUMBA:  In fact, the Judges are

         21  overloaded with work in other Trial Chambers, as you

         22  know.

         23            MR. RYNEVELD:  Oh, I do.  I just didn't want

         24  to get your wrath by saying, "I'm sorry, I'm out of

         25  witnesses for today."

Page 1911

          1            JUDGE MUMBA:  No, no, no.  We got the list

          2  and we are aware of that.  We are fully conscious of

          3  what is going to transpire.  We are fully conscious of

          4  our duty to get the relevant evidence for these

          5  proceedings.

          6            Now I'll turn to the Defence.  The Defence

          7  have understood what the Prosecution have said, and I

          8  do hope they have understood what the Bench has said.

          9  We have said that we have no interest, at this time, to

         10  view all the tapes during these proceedings, because if

         11  you consent or if we rule, these tapes will be in our

         12  custody, together with the transcripts.  We will be

         13  able to view them during our time.  We will be able to

         14  follow the transcripts during our time.

         15            Now, I'm turning to you, the Defence

         16  counsels.  You have heard what the Prosecution has

         17  said.  You have the tapes.  You have the transcripts.

         18  Now, I'd like to find out from you whether you have any

         19  objection to have these tapes and their transcripts

         20  produced into evidence.

         21            MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

         22  I believe that is the best solution that you have

         23  suggested.  We are not opposed to the tapes being

         24  entered into evidence, especially as the accused

         25  Kunarac does intend to testify in his own defence in

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          1  this case.

          2            So that I agree that it would be absolutely

          3  redundant to view all this when we will be hearing the

          4  accused as a witness.  In that situation, the Defence

          5  will have an opportunity put questions to the accused

          6  or witness.

          7            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  The other point, before

          8  we actually number them formally, is that when it comes

          9  to your turn to cross-examine, you are free to

         10  cross-examine the witness who introduced these tapes

         11  fully.  I take it you have viewed the tapes.  You can

         12  raise any issues you wish to raise in cross-examination

         13  of the Prosecution witnesses.

         14            So your cross-examination will not be

         15  limited.  If you want to view any parts, highlight

         16  them, it's up to you.  We can continue with this

         17  witness the next sitting time.  So I want you to

         18  understand that fully.

         19            Now I'll turn to the registrar.  With the

         20  assistance of the Prosecution, they know which tapes,

         21  which numbers, so to assist the registrar.

         22            MR. RYNEVELD:  My understanding, Your Honour,

         23  is that the transcript of the March 13, 1998 interview

         24  has been pre-marked as Exhibit 67, and the videotape

         25  that goes with it has been pre-marked as number 68.

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          1            The next day, which is a month and a year

          2  later, is the April 22nd interview, April 22nd, 1999

          3  interview.  The transcript is number 69, and the video

          4  is number 70.  They go in -- transcripts are the odd

          5  numbers and the videos are the even numbers.

          6            So that then brings us to the following day's

          7  interview, the 23rd of April, 1999, the transcript 71,

          8  the video 72.

          9            That is my understanding of the pre-marked

         10  numbers of the evidence which we would be putting into

         11  evidence.

         12            Now, although item number --  I'm sorry.  The

         13  video 68 is one tape and the video 70 and 72 comprise

         14  four tapes.

         15            JUDGE MUMBA:  So there are four segments in

         16  that exhibit.

         17            MR. RYNEVELD:  In those exhibits.  That's

         18  correct, yes.

         19            JUDGE MUMBA:  Okay.

         20            MR. RYNEVELD:  So there's a total of five

         21  tapes.

         22            JUDGE MUMBA:  So may we have numbers formally

         23  from the registrar?

         24            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] First of all,

         25  I have to check with you, and that is whether the video

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          1  cassette numbered V001314, does it indeed correspond to

          2  the video dated the 13th of March, 1998?  Because I

          3  don't have a number on that video cassette.

          4            MR. RYNEVELD:  I cannot speak from personal

          5  knowledge, but our case manager is nodding and assuring

          6  me that's so.

          7            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.

          8            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Very well.

          9  Thank you.  In that case, the transcript of the video

         10  of the 13th of March, 1998 will have the number 67,

         11  Prosecution Exhibit.  The tape of the 13th of March,

         12  1998 will be Prosecution Exhibit 68.

         13            The transcript of the video of the 22nd of

         14  April, 1999 will be Prosecution Exhibit 69.  As for the

         15  tapes of the 22nd of April, 1999, there are three

         16  tapes.  Therefore, I suggest that we give the first

         17  tape number 70/1; the second 70/2, Prosecution Exhibit;

         18  and the third tape 70/3 Prosecution Exhibit.

         19            The transcript of the interview of the 23rd

         20  of April, 1999 will be Prosecution Exhibit 71, and the

         21  videotape of the 23rd of April, 1999 will be

         22  Prosecution Exhibit 72.

         23            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  I

         24  would like to confirm with the Defence counsel again

         25  whether he has understood the numbering of the exhibits

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          1  and that he has got all these exhibits.

          2            MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

          3  Honour, we do have all these exhibits which have just

          4  been mentioned.

          5            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you.  Before I forget, I

          6  wanted to find out from you, Mr. Prodanovic, there was

          7  an expression by the Prosecution of your concerns

          8  regarding maybe some names mentioned in the tapes, that

          9  they may be witnesses for the Defence and maybe at the

         10  time you may wish to have protective measures, and

         11  maybe you would like, at this stage, to put it in

         12  writing what the names of these witnesses are so that

         13  the protective measures can be dealt with before we

         14  even start viewing the tapes.

         15            MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

         16  I'm afraid I wasn't correctly understood by the

         17  Prosecution when we had our conversation yesterday.  I

         18  wish to tell you that my client came here voluntarily,

         19  which created animosity in the environment from which

         20  he came, and he mentioned certain events and names

         21  linked to those events.  In Foca there is a sealed

         22  indictment in addition to this public indictment, (redacted)

         23  (redacted)

         24  (redacted)

         25  (redacted)

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          1  (redacted).  And in accordance with Rule 69, had the

          2  interview been public -- 79, I'm sorry -- we would have

          3  suggested a closed session for the hearing of those

          4  tapes.

          5                 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

          6            JUDGE MUMBA:  Mr. Prodanovic, we have

          7  deliberated on your concerns and would like to give a

          8  few guidelines.  When writing a judgement, it is

          9  necessary to mention people mentioned by the witnesses,

         10  the accused, if they give evidence, and things like

         11  that, and persons who may be in the tapes.  So if the

         12  protective measures are not given now, we may not know

         13  how to deal with that.  It's may lead to identification

         14  of people who should be protected.

         15            So what you should do is to work out through

         16  those tapes -- you work out a document for each step,

         17  the materials you would like to have redacted, the

         18  names you'd like to have redacted, and file it.  That

         19  way, the Prosecution, the Bench, will take care of that

         20  information.

         21            We know that you may not call those people in

         22  the end.  You may change your mind.  That's not a

         23  problem.  What we want is to protect them now so that

         24  even when we're viewing, we know that this information

         25  is under seal, this name should be redacted, and

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          1  everybody will be careful, and identifying features,

          2  identifying captions, names, will not be revealed to

          3  the public.

          4                 [Trial Chamber confers]

          5            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Prodanovic, as I understand

          6  it, your concern is also that you do not want revealed

          7  the names of persons your client may have mentioned in

          8  the second interview because, as you put it, a threat

          9  may be made to his family that he has identified these

         10  people in perhaps criminal circumstances.  Is that what

         11  you're concerned with, as well as the names of your own

         12  witnesses?

         13            MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] My main

         14  concern, exclusive concern, is the fact that he

         15  mentioned certain names, and in giving descriptions of

         16  certain events, I fear that certain persons who were

         17  involved and whom he didn't dare mention might

         18  recognise themselves as being involved, which would

         19  create a situation that his family might be endangered,

         20  especially, as I said, that his voluntary surrender

         21  here created a great deal of animosity and disapproval

         22  in the environment against his voluntary surrender.

         23            JUDGE HUNT:  It would probably be very

         24  unlikely that it would be necessary in the judgement to

         25  refer to that fact, except in the event that if he is

Page 1918

          1  convicted, it may be taken into account by you in

          2  mitigation.  But I think that that probably is not

          3  quite so difficult as we may have anticipated from what

          4  you said earlier.  So we're not concerned about the

          5  names of your witnesses, we're concerned only with the

          6  fact that your client has named people and he does not

          7  want the identity of those persons he's named made

          8  public.

          9            I still think it might be worthwhile if you

         10  would file the document that the Presiding Judge has

         11  suggested, pointing out those passages about which you

         12  have concern so that there is a record of it, and if

         13  there is any need for reference to those passages in

         14  the judgement, then we know not to identify persons by

         15  events or names in the way in which you suggest.

         16            So if I may put it on behalf of the Presiding

         17  Judge, you should still file that document, but we now

         18  understand, at least I understand, the purpose for

         19  which you want it.

         20            MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

         21  Your Honour.  I think that is the best solution and the

         22  Defence will act as advised by you.

         23            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you.

         24            MR. RYNEVELD:  I don't wish to unduly prolong

         25  this discussion, I should just indicate that from my

Page 1919

          1  reading of those statements, the list should be

          2  relatively short, because Mr. Kunarac was very careful

          3  to indicate when he didn't want to name names and the

          4  reasons why he didn't want to name names.  So he was on

          5  his guard, as it were, with respect to those issues,

          6  and that will become obvious.  So I think that the list

          7  of names is very short.

          8            JUDGE MUMBA:  Let Mr. Prodanovic do what

          9  he thinks is necessary for his defence.  The Trial

         10  Chamber will make a decision.

         11            MR. RYNEVELD:  Thank you, Your Honour.

         12            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The registrar

         13  would like to draw the attention of the Chamber that

         14  this tape was admitted in open session, so it is part

         15  of the public regard, and if there is any problem

         16  regarding confidentiality, perhaps it would be a good

         17  idea to admit these tapes under seal and for the

         18  Registry to wait for a ruling of the Chamber to lift

         19  the seal from these tapes.

         20            JUDGE MUMBA:  Oh, yes.  Thank you very much,

         21  Madam Registrar.  That should be the procedure,

         22  actually.  The tapes, the transcripts under seal.  When

         23  we get the filing from Mr. Prodanovic, we may change

         24  the rule, we may not.

         25            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you

Page 1920

          1  very much, Madam President.

          2            JUDGE MUMBA:  Perhaps before the Prosecution

          3  calls their witness, I wanted to clear with the defence

          4  the calling of Witness DB.  The documents were given to

          5  the defence earlier on, and I did indicate that I would

          6  like to know their views as to when they think they

          7  will be ready for Witness DB before the end of today.

          8            MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

          9  we were going to raise this question because our

         10  deadline was today.  Of course, we have no objection to

         11  the Witness DB appearing here in court.  Mr. Kunarac

         12  himself said that in his interview.  And we leave it up

         13  to the Prosecution and the Chamber to decide whether

         14  that is appropriate or not, but for our part, we have

         15  no objection either that she be called in 15 days or in

         16  a month's time.  I'm saying this exclusively as Defence

         17  counsel for Mr. Kunarac.  I don't know to what extent

         18  that witness is of interest to my learned colleagues on

         19  this side.  It is up to them to state their views.

         20  Therefore, I'm speaking only with respect to the

         21  accused Kunarac.

         22            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you, Mr. Prodanovic.

         23            Mr. Kolesar.

         24            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

         25  according to the materials at the disposal of the Kovac

Page 1921

          1  defence, this witness is of no interest to our client,

          2  nor has she said anything of relevance so far linked to

          3  our defence.  So I quite agree with the proposal by my

          4  learned friend Prodanovic.

          5            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you.  Mr. Jovanovic,

          6  Witness DB.

          7            MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

          8  I too fully agree with the positions taken by my

          9  colleagues Prodanovic and Kolesar, especially as

         10  regards the Kovac defence, and we are quite ready, when

         11  the Chamber and the Prosecution so decides, to hear

         12  that witness.  Thank you.

         13            JUDGE MUMBA:  The Prosecution, I take it,

         14  have understood?

         15            MR. RYNEVELD:  Indeed.

         16            JUDGE MUMBA:  And they will call Witness DB

         17  accordingly.

         18            MR. RYNEVELD:  Thank you, Your Honour.

         19            JUDGE MUMBA:  We may now proceed.

         20            MR. RYNEVELD:  Thank you.  We would call

         21  Brett Simpson.

         22            Now, just before I actually do that, do you

         23  wish me to ask questions of him without seeing the

         24  video about certain contents of the video or just put

         25  the formalities of entering the documents into

Page 1922

          1  evidence?  I know they've been formally entered, but

          2  some of the background, because my original intention

          3  and what he may be expecting is that I ask extensive

          4  questions throughout all three of these tapes.  And I'm

          5  not quite sure if I understand what guidance it is that

          6  you're seeking from the witness with respect to the

          7  tapes today.

          8            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  I understand your

          9  concern.  You can ask the questions -- you go with your

         10  questions tape by tape.  I hope that the witness will

         11  be able to remember what is in a particular tape and to

         12  be able to simply describe and to simply state briefly

         13  whoever he interviewed appeared to be saying.

         14            MR. RYNEVELD:  So you would like us to

         15  briefly give you capsule highlights of what is in the

         16  tape.

         17            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.

         18            MR. RYNEVELD:  You do want me to go through

         19  that exercise.

         20            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  Without viewing the

         21  tapes.

         22            MR. RYNEVELD:  I think I now understand what

         23  you want.  Thank you.

         24                 [The witness entered court]

         25                 WITNESS:  BRETT SIMPSON

Page 1923

          1            JUDGE MUMBA:  Please make your solemn

          2  declaration, witness.

          3            THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will

          4  speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

          5  truth.

          6            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

          7                 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

          8       Q.   Mr. Simpson, I understand you are at present

          9  a team leader for one of the investigative teams here

         10  at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former

         11  Yugoslavia; is that correct?

         12       A.   That's correct.

         13       Q.   And as such, sir, you were in charge of a

         14  number of investigators related, among other things, to

         15  the investigation of the Foca files; is that correct?

         16       A.   That's correct.

         17       Q.   Sir, prior to your coming to the ICTY, do I

         18  understand correctly that you were a member of the

         19  Auckland, New Zealand police?

         20       A.   Yes.  I'm still a serving member of the New

         21  Zealand police, with 23 years experience.

         22       Q.   And --

         23            THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please

         24  make pauses between answer and question because of

         25  interpretation.  Thank you.

Page 1924

          1            MR. RYNEVELD:  Thank you for reminding me.

          2  I'll go slower.

          3       Q.   I'm sorry.  I introduced you as Brett

          4  Simpson.  Perhaps you could state your full name?

          5       A.   Yes.  My full name is Brett Gerard Simpson.

          6       Q.   I interrupted you at the point where you were

          7  about to give us some of your background with the

          8  Auckland, New Zealand police?

          9       A.   Yes.  I've been a member of the New Zealand

         10  police for 23 years.  I still am.  I arrived at the

         11  Tribunal as an investigator in October 1997.  In

         12  January 1999, I got the position as team leader of the

         13  team that I'm on currently, team 8.

         14       Q.   Thank you.  Now, sir, I should tell you,

         15  before we proceed, that we have adopted a slightly

         16  different game plan than you and I had initially

         17  assumed would be the case.  We are not going to be

         18  watching any videotapes today.  What I will be doing,

         19  however, is to ask you some questions and ask that you

         20  can perhaps assist us by referring to portions of the

         21  transcript and give a capsule comment or agree with a

         22  capsule comment that I might suggest to you in terms of

         23  what is contained between certain areas of footage for

         24  the guidance of the Court when the Court, at a later

         25  date, watches the videos.  You appreciate what I'm

Page 1925

          1  saying?

          2       A.   Yes, I understand.

          3       Q.   All right.  Now, I understand, sir, that what

          4  we have before us today are transcripts and videotapes

          5  of two interviews, the first of which was on the 13th

          6  of March, 1998, and the second two transcripts for each

          7  of the days of the 22nd and 23rd of April, 1999; is

          8  that correct?

          9       A.   That's correct.

         10       Q.   What I'm going to ask you to do first now,

         11  sir, is turn your mind to the interview of the 13th of

         12  March, 1998, if you would, please.  Perhaps you could

         13  give us some background there in terms of -- you've

         14  told us, I believe, that you were then an investigator

         15  with the ICTY; is that correct?

         16       A.   Yes, I was.  I was asked to do an interview

         17  with Mr. Kunarac on that date, to carry out an

         18  interview.

         19       Q.   All right.  And did you, in fact, carry out

         20  that interview somewhere on the premises at the ICTY or

         21  at another location?

         22       A.   At another location.

         23       Q.   And where was that?

         24       A.   At the detention unit.

         25       Q.   All right.  And I take it that the

Page 1926

          1  appropriate video equipment and recording devices were

          2  already there; is that correct?

          3       A.   Yes.  There was a portable video recording

          4  unit there, and we used that.

          5       Q.   All right.  And can you tell us, sir, who was

          6  present during that interview?

          7       A.   For the duration of the interview, those

          8  present were myself, Mr. Kunarac himself, his lawyer,

          9  Mr. Pantelic; the interpreter, Mr. Philipovic; and legal

         10  officers, Patricia Sellers and Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

         11       Q.   My co-counsel?

         12       A.   Yes.

         13       Q.   So we have all these people in a room with

         14  Mr. Kunarac at the detention centre?

         15       A.   Yes, six in total.

         16       Q.   All right.  I've asked you to bring with you

         17  a copy of the transcript of the March 13th, 1998

         18  interview.  Do I understand correctly, sir, that in

         19  addition to this video recording, there was also an

         20  audio recording going at the same time?

         21       A.   Yes.  It's a simultaneous video and audio

         22  recording.

         23       Q.   Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as I

         24  understand it, there is an audio tape made on a

         25  separate cassette which is then transcribed into a

Page 1927

          1  transcript; is that correct?

          2       A.   That's right.  An audio-only tape is made

          3  from the video and it is the audio tape that is used

          4  for the purposes of transcription.

          5       Q.   Just so that we're clear, when we're looking

          6  at the transcript, Exhibit 67, if you would, would you

          7  turn with me to the transcript of Exhibit 67, which is

          8  the 13th of March, 1998.  You will see it says

          9  "Dragolub Kunarac interview, 13 March 1998, tape 1,

         10  side A".  Now, are we talking there about the videotape

         11  or the audio tape that is created from the simultaneous

         12  recording?

         13       A.   We're talking about the audio tape that's

         14  created.

         15       Q.   I see.  So if at some point during the

         16  transcript of those proceedings we seem to switch to

         17  another tape, we're talking switching the audio tape,

         18  not the videotape; is that correct?

         19       A.   That's right.  As I understand it, there

         20  might have been four audiotapes produced from the one

         21  videotape.

         22       Q.   I understand.  Now, on the bottom right-hand

         23  corner of each of these pages in the document, we see,

         24  I suppose, what they call in computer language a

         25  footer, and it starts with "t:\team06", et cetera, and

Page 1928

          1  then the last words are "tape1a.doc".  Do you see that?

          2  Is that correct?

          3       A.   Yes.

          4       Q.   And if you flip through this document, you

          5  will see that it refers to different tape numbers such

          6  as "tape1b.doc" and "tape2a. doc,", et cetera.

          7       A.   Yes.

          8       Q.   Those don't refer to videotapes, they refer

          9  to the audiotapes from which this transcript is

         10  created; is that correct?

         11       A.   Yes, that's right.

         12       Q.   All right.  Now, sir, having got the

         13  technical questions out of the way, you've told us who

         14  was present.  Can you tell us, sir, where in this -- in

         15  this transcript, I understand that there was a process,

         16  starting at page 1 through to page 1 of tape1a.doc,

         17  which outlines who the people who were present during

         18  the course of this interview; is that right?

         19       A.   Yes.

         20       Q.   And you've already told us who they were?

         21       A.   Yes.

         22       Q.   On page 2 of this document, did you explain

         23  to the accused, Mr. Kunarac, why it was that he was

         24  being interviewed, sir?

         25       A.   Can you refer me to that page again, sir?

Page 1929

          1       Q.   All right.  Perhaps I should ask you to look

          2  to page 3.  I'm sorry.  I said page 2.  Page 3, about

          3  halfway through the page.  I believe it says -- you ask

          4  him if he's willing to participate in an interview?

          5       A.   Yes, I asked him that question.  Mr. Kunarac

          6  replied, "It is also my wish and this is a wish I had

          7  all along to have this interview, but because I did not

          8  know the procedure, we have not done this earlier."

          9  That was his response.

         10       Q.   I see.  Now, sir, did you, in fact, inform

         11  him of his various rights during the course of the

         12  interview, and I might refer you to the top of page 4

         13  of that document, under tape1a.doc.  The reason, just

         14  for the Court's information, unfortunately the

         15  numbering changes, so you get more than page 1, more

         16  than one page 2 when the tape changes.  That's why I

         17  have to refer the page number to the tape1a.doc or

         18  1b.doc.

         19            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes, that is understood because

         20  machines are not human beings.  They can't change

         21  according to the circumstances.  Thank you.

         22            MR. RYNEVELD:

         23       Q.   So on the first page 4, if I may call it

         24  that, did you indicate to him what his rights were?

         25       A.   Yes, I did, bearing in mind that we'd

Page 1930

          1  previously discussed the presence of his counsel and

          2  the interpreter.  At the top of page 4, the portion

          3  you're referring to, Mr. Kunarac acknowledged and he

          4  states:  "I was also told, I was also informed that at

          5  any point I can stop at any question and turn to my

          6  counsel and ask his legal advice," and at that point

          7  the taping will stop until we consult."

          8            I can also refer you, sir, back to page 2.

          9       Q.   Yes.

         10       A.   Where towards the bottom of the page I

         11  formally give him his rights in which I say, "You do

         12  not have to say anything or answer my questions unless

         13  you do so.  Anything that you say will be recorded and

         14  could be used in evidence against you in a later

         15  Tribunal proceeding, including a trial.  Do you

         16  understand that?"  Mr. Kunarac responded:  "Yes, I do,

         17  but I can also use any portion of this interview during

         18  the proceedings if it's in my interest."  And I told

         19  him, yes, and the fact that he and his counsel would be

         20  supplied with a copy of the tape, and he was happy with

         21  that.

         22       Q.   He understood, I take it, that if at any

         23  point he wanted to terminate the interview, he could do

         24  so?

         25       A.   Yes.  That was my understanding.

Page 1931

          1       Q.   All right.  And from his responses -- I don't

          2  need you necessarily to refer to the transcript -- were

          3  you satisfied that he understood the purpose of being

          4  there, that he understood his rights, that he had his

          5  lawyer there and was fully aware of proceedings?

          6       A.   Definitely.

          7       Q.   Thank you.  Now, if you could turn with me to

          8  page 7 under tape1a.doc.  Did you ask any questions of

          9  Mr. Kunarac about where he resided prior to the war?

         10       A.   Yes.  In response to a question where I put

         11  it to him that at some stage in his life he moved to

         12  Montenegro.  He replied:  "Before the outbreak of war

         13  in the former Yugoslavia, I lived in Montenegro and I

         14  was a citizen of Socialist Federal Republic of

         15  Yugoslavia, and I lived in Tivat with my wife and, at

         16  that time, my eldest daughter."

         17            Over the next two pages he elaborated on his

         18  movements between the years 1984 up until the time of

         19  the conflict, and much of that is recorded on page 8.

         20       Q.   On page 8.  Before we turn to page 8, at the

         21  bottom of page 7, where Mr. Kunarac is being quoted,

         22  did he indicate to you then when he returned to Foca?

         23       A.   Yes.  In answer to my question, he said:  "I

         24  returned to Foca during the war, for the first time on

         25  27 May, 1992.  I learned that on the 26th, my father

Page 1932

          1  was wounded."  And he carried on.

          2       Q.   Now, sir, you brought us to page 8 of tape1a,

          3  and I understood, sir, that it was originally our

          4  intension to start playing the tape at the very bottom

          5  of that page where you ask a question concerning the

          6  accused Dragolub Kunarac's nickname.

          7       A.   Yes.

          8       Q.   That portion, sir, would it be fair to say

          9  that from page 8 through to page -- excuse me, I have

         10  to count the pages -- well, to page 14 which is the end

         11  of the first tape, and then starting at the second page

         12  1 of tape1b through to about halfway to page 2 of

         13  tape1b, Mr. Kunarac told you about such things as what

         14  his nickname was.  He discussed his role as a commander

         15  of a special unit, what his unit was, where his

         16  headquarters were, and gave you some details about

         17  Ulica Osmana Djikica 16, the house near the mosque in

         18  Foca.

         19            Is that a fair summary or is there something

         20  you might wish to elaborate on in that area?

         21       A.   That's a fair summary.

         22       Q.   So that for the Court's benefit, I don't know

         23  whether the counters that you will have would assist.

         24  We had originally intended to start playing at 10:50:38

         25  and stopping at 11:18:06.  I don't know if that is of

Page 1933

          1  assistance to you or not?

          2            JUDGE MUMBA:  It is, counsel.

          3            MR. RYNEVELD:  Sometimes the counters from

          4  machine to machine differ somewhat too, but that's a

          5  guideline since you've asked us to highlight.

          6       Q.   Now, sir, turning with me I'm going to skip

          7  to page 4 of tape1b, which is the second page 4 in this

          8  document.  Was there a discussion with Mr. Kunarac

          9  about fighting in the vicinity of Foca?

         10       A.   He refers to activity which occurred in the

         11  village of Suba and his account of that is contained at

         12  the bottom of page 4 in a reasonably lengthy dialogue

         13  there or what he is saying about it.

         14       Q.   If you were to describe the effect of that

         15  dialogue, did it have any bearing of any interest to

         16  you on the issue of ethnic cleansing?

         17       A.   It certainly referred to what could be

         18  described as ethnic cleansing, although in fairness to

         19  Mr. Kunarac, clearly he was putting, you know, a

         20  different interpretation on it.

         21       Q.   Yes.  So that would be that portion of his

         22  answer at the bottom of the second page 4, tape1b?

         23       A.   That's right.

         24       Q.   Now, just for clarification, sir, during the

         25  course of this interview I understand that at some

Page 1934

          1  points Mr. Kunarac had a copy of an indictment with him

          2  and actually referred to certain paragraph numbers in

          3  the indictment; is that correct?

          4       A.   Yes, he did.  I can't recall if he actually

          5  had possession of it or his counsel, but I'm reasonably

          6  sure that one or other of them had it, yes.

          7       Q.   And if on the videotape he's seen to have a

          8  copy of the indictment in his hand, that would be of

          9  assistance to be able to answer that question I take

         10  it?

         11       A.   Yes.

         12       Q.   Yes.  Which version of the indictment was

         13  then available to you and to Mr. Kunarac as of the 13th

         14  of March, 1998?  Was that the original indictment?

         15       A.   Yes, I understood it was the original

         16  indictment, yes.

         17       Q.   Are you aware, sir, that a subsequent

         18  indictment has been filed in which paragraph numbers

         19  have changed?

         20       A.   Yes.  I'm aware of that.

         21       Q.   So where, for example -- I'm going to suggest

         22  this for the benefit of the Court and the witness --

         23            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.

         24            MR. RYNEVELD:  I may be here giving evidence,

         25  but for the assistance of the Court, my understanding

Page 1935

          1  is that where the witness -- where the accused makes

          2  reference to the indictment, where he talks about

          3  paragraph 9.21, that is now paragraph 7.1 in the

          4  existing indictment upon which he is now charged.

          5            Similarly, where he makes reference to 9.10,

          6  and this is the accused himself and his response

          7  referring to that paragraph, my understanding is that

          8  that is now contained in Count 5.3 of the current

          9  indictment upon which he is facing charges.  So 9.21 is

         10  7.1.  9.10 is 5.3.

         11       Q.   Now, sir, if you could turn with me now to

         12  page 5 of tape1b.  Do I understand correctly that --

         13  and I'm referring now to the area right where there is

         14  a caption which there is an exchange between

         15  Mr. Kunarac and Mr. Pantelic.  In other words, he is

         16  consulting with his counsel, is that correct, at that

         17  point?

         18       A.   Yes.

         19       Q.   I had intended, with your assistance, to play

         20  starting at that point on page 5 through page 6, 7, 8,

         21  9, 10, and 11, to the end of tape1b.  That's the audio

         22  tape.  And continuing on tape 2, side a, on the new --

         23  so the third page 1, 2, 3, all the way to page 10.

         24            So if we're using the counters, we would

         25  start on that tape at 11:30:51, and concluding at the

Page 1936

          1  bottom of page 10 at 12:38:07.  That's what you had

          2  intended to play for us?

          3       A.   Yes.

          4       Q.   I know this might be a bit a challenge to ask

          5  you this question in the sense that you're not now

          6  being assisted by the videotape, but in that portion of

          7  tape to which we were wanting to draw the court's

          8  attention, is it fair to say that that portion of tape

          9  covers your discussion with him about what occurred at

         10  Partizan, Ulica Osmana Djikica 16, that was the house

         11  near the mosque, his encounter with an individual

         12  referred to in these proceedings as DB, but referred by

         13  him by her full first name, and the general topic of

         14  women being in detention?  Is that fair to say, that

         15  that whole portion deals with discussions of those

         16  nature?

         17       A.   Yes.  That's a general summary of what's

         18  contend in these pages, yes.

         19       Q.   If I'm being too general, let me know?

         20            JUDGE MUMBA:  No, Mr. Ryneveld, you're doing

         21  it very well, because right now we don't know yet what

         22  Mr. Prodanovic will file, so it is better to go into

         23  the details.

         24            MR. RYNEVELD:  Thank you.

         25       Q.   Now, sir, immediately thereafter, I was going

Page 1937

          1  to ask you to turn to page 11 of tape 2a.  There's only

          2  a very brief break in the action before we recommence,

          3  and we start playing -- we were to start playing again

          4  at 12:39:49, and that's just a very short passage to

          5  the end of that page, about half a page, stopping at

          6  12:41:59.

          7            Now, if you just look at that half page,

          8  would it be fair to say, sir, that I had intended to

          9  ask you there about the accused's discussion, what

         10  occurred with the witness who has now become known to

         11  this Court as number 87?

         12       A.   That's right.

         13       Q.   Thank you.  Turning next, if I may, to the

         14  next portion of tape that I intended to have you assist

         15  us with.  That would be on now the fourth side of the

         16  tape, so that would be tape 2b, at the fourth page 2 in

         17  this document.  And near the bottom of the page, I

         18  believe that one of the participants in the interview

         19  who you identified as Patricia Sellers asks a question,

         20  and that starts on the videotape at 12:46:52.

         21       A.   Yes.

         22       Q.   And goes the remainder of that page and about

         23  halfway on page 3, the next page, and stops at

         24  12:50:01.  And would it be fair to say, sir, that in

         25  that exchange, there is a discussion about an

Page 1938

          1  individual who has since died, the allegations of

          2  gang-rape and Mr. Kunarac's concerns about some of his

          3  previous associates in relation to his personal safety?

          4       A.   Yes, that's right.

          5       Q.   This may well be, for the Court's benefit,

          6  part of the portion that my learned friend has referred

          7  to.

          8            Now, sir, I believe I am finished with the

          9  March 13th, 1998 interview, Exhibit 67.  If I can ask

         10  you to turn with me to the first of the two next

         11  transcripts, which is, for the Court's purposes, the

         12  transcript Exhibit 69.  And before I ask you the

         13  contents of this particular document, I'm going to ask

         14  you some preliminary questions about your different

         15  role with respect to the next two transcripts.

         16            Do I understand, sir, that by the 22nd of

         17  April, 1999, you were no longer merely an investigator

         18  but you were, in fact, the team leader for this

         19  particular team, part of whose duties were the Foca

         20  files?

         21       A.   That's right.

         22       Q.   And in that capacity, you were, as it were,

         23  in charge of individuals whose particular

         24  responsibility it was to continue with these

         25  investigations?

Page 1939

          1       A.   Yes.  I assigned people to particular

          2  functions, yes.

          3       Q.   Were one of those people a gentleman called

          4  Robert Kempf?

          5       A.   That's right.

          6       Q.   With the interview of April 22, 1999, did you

          7  give instructions to Mr. Kempf in regard to the taking

          8  of a further statement with respect to Mr. Kunarac?

          9       A.   Yes, I did.  Mr. Kempf had, by that stage,

         10  joined the team and was assigned to this case.  He was

         11  the investigator on the case and he was then assigned

         12  to conduct the interview of Mr. Kunarac.

         13       Q.   Is Mr. Kempf still an employee of the ICTY

         14  today?

         15       A.   No, he's not.

         16       Q.   So he's not with the ICTY at the moment?

         17  He's not here?

         18       A.   That's right.  He resigned towards the end of

         19  1999.

         20       Q.   All right.  As his supervisor, did he make a

         21  report to you concerning what went on, with respect to

         22  other matters I'm sure, but in particular with respect

         23  to the interviews of the 22nd and 28th and 23rd of

         24  April 1999?

         25       A.   Yes.

Page 1940

          1       Q.   And have you had an opportunity to review, in

          2  brief, or cursorily review the contents of the

          3  interview conducted by Mr. Kempf?

          4       A.   Yes.  I certainly don't have the in-depth

          5  knowledge of that interview as I have of the one that I

          6  personally conducted, but I've certainly had a look at

          7  the transcripts, yes.

          8       Q.   And perhaps you can assist us, to your

          9  understanding, which is perhaps similar to ours in that

         10  you too have had an opportunity of looking at the

         11  transcripts and have an opportunity to look at the

         12  videos, who was present at that particular interview?

         13       A.   If I could refer to the transcript, please.

         14       Q.   Please, if you would and maybe we should just

         15  start on page 1 of the transcript under -- this is now

         16  22ap1. doc.  Again, it was the same process, I take it,

         17  an audio tape is made from the simultaneous videotape;

         18  is that correct?

         19       A.   Yes, that's right.

         20       Q.   And before you even answer that question, do

         21  you know where this interview took place?

         22       A.   I understand that it happened here.

         23       Q.   And "here" meaning in a room at the ICTY?

         24       A.   Yes.

         25       Q.   Sorry.  Answer my first question if you

Page 1941

          1  remember it.  Who was there?

          2       A.   Mr. Kempf; Mr. Kunarac; Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff;

          3  Barbara Hanel, who was an investigator; Mr. Slavisa

          4  Prodanovic, who is the accused's or Mr. Kunarac's

          5  counsel.

          6       Q.   I understand his co-counsel Ms. Pilipovic was

          7  there as well?

          8       A.   Yes, that's correct.  And the interpreter was

          9  a Ms. Pitesa.

         10       Q.   And all that is highlighted for us, I take it

         11  in the first half of page 1 of the April 22nd

         12  transcript?

         13       A.   Yes, it is.

         14       Q.   Do I understand correctly, sir, that in the

         15  balance of those pages, Mr. Kempf again gave the

         16  accused his rights and told him that everything was

         17  being recorded, that an interpreter was being supplied;

         18  is that correct?

         19       A.   Yes.  The rights are given.

         20       Q.   And satisfied himself that they were was able

         21  to communicate in a language that the accused

         22  understood?  I'm over on page 2 of that document now?

         23       A.   Yes, that's the case.

         24       Q.   At the bottom of page 2, do you know what

         25  rights Mr. Kempf gave to the accused?

Page 1942

          1       A.   Yes.  Mr. Kempf states:  "You do not have to

          2  say anything or answer my questions unless you want to

          3  do so.  Anything you say will be recorded and could be

          4  used as evidence against later in the Tribunal

          5  proceedings, including your trial.  Do you

          6  understand?"  Mr. Kunarac respond, "Yes, I do."

          7       Q.   All right.  And as you've already indicated

          8  who was present, you're aware that his current counsel,

          9  both his current counsel who are present in the

         10  courtroom today were present during that interview?

         11       A.   That's my understanding, yes.

         12       Q.   Now, sir, I'd like you to turn with me,

         13  because I'm going to start highlighting this, if I may,

         14  to page 8 of the first tape, which should be 22ap1.doc

         15  the very bottom of the page.

         16            Was there a conversation had between your

         17  investigators and Mr. Kunarac concerning some car

         18  accidents that he was involved in?

         19       A.   Yes.  In a response to suggestions from Mr.

         20  Kempf, Mr. Kunarac responded:  "There were two car

         21  accidents during this critical period.  The first one

         22  occurred on the 8th of August between 0700 and 0730.

         23  On the road Brijoni-Foca I was in a VW Golf car and I

         24  had a head-on collision with a Magirus Deutz truck.

         25  That's when I had the fractures on two ribs and my toes

Page 1943

          1  and I had a number of contusions.  And the second

          2  accident took place."

          3       Q.   All right.  Then there is some clarification

          4  of about which year in August.  Then there's August

          5  1992, and then was there a discussion about a second

          6  accident?

          7       A.   Yes.  Mr. Kunarac states:  "And about 20 days

          8  later," so the 25th or the 26th of August, "then there

          9  was a second accident.  We were in the Armoured

         10  Personnel Carrier which I returned.  So actually then I

         11  suffered a fracture of the right arm; that is to say,

         12  the clip of rifle went into my wrist.  Then I suffered

         13  again the injury on my already broken ribs.  This time

         14  I was not alone in the vehicle.  Three men were killed

         15  and nine were injured."

         16       Q.   All right.  The next highlighted area that I

         17  was going to ask you to turn to would be on page 10 of

         18  that first tape of the 22nd of April document.  The

         19  very top of the page, sir, did he indicate to you the

         20  nature of the injuries he sustained in his arm in that

         21  second car accident to which he made earlier

         22  reference?

         23       A.   He states:  "That after this accident, I

         24  spent two or three days in the hospital, but on the

         25  first accident I left the hospital the very same day.

Page 1944

          1  I was just examined and plastered and then they let me

          2  go."

          3       Q.   And then there's a -- okay, that's fine.  So

          4  he was plastered at some point?

          5       A.   Yes.

          6       Q.   Excuse me.  Turning, if I may, next to page

          7  15 of that first tape.  Was there a discussion to your

          8  understanding about Kunarac's basic training and his

          9  specialised military training, and in particular, I'm

         10  now looking at -- did I say 15?  I meant 14.  My

         11  apology.  About halfway -- or a third of the way down

         12  the page.  After he is asked:  "Did you perform

         13  military compulsory service?" and the reply was yes and

         14  there was a question about when and where.  What was

         15  the response?

         16       A.   Mr. Kunarac respond:  "From 1980 to 1981 I

         17  followed the training in Travnik, and the rest of my

         18  compulsory service I served in Mostar.  I was in the

         19  engineering unit.  I was a mechanic for mines and

         20  explosives.  So this is the abbreviation MIMEF, mines

         21  and explosive mechanic for."

         22       Q.   And then I understand, at the bottom of that

         23  page, he goes into further details about his uniform

         24  and when he got certain military equipment and matters

         25  of that nature; is that correct?

Page 1945

          1       A.   Yes.  In the course of the discussion, he

          2  says:  "I was mobilised on the 21st for the first

          3  time.  I got the uniform and the rifle.  This was in

          4  former Yugoslavia.  I was in a reserve unit for four

          5  months.  For four months until the 21st or the 25th of

          6  December, 1991, then I was mobilised for the second

          7  time on the 8th of April, 1992, until the 15th of May,

          8  1992.  I was demobbed from the Yugoslav army.  On the

          9  6th of June I came as a volunteer, as a person from

         10  Republika Srpska, from the municipality of Foca, and I

         11  joined the military units that actually had been in the

         12  course of their formation, the military units of the

         13  VRS."  This is the shortest.

         14       Q.   All right.  There are obviously other areas,

         15  but I want to just highlight some of these.  Let me ask

         16  you next to turn with me to what I intended to play as

         17  excerpt 5, and that would be -- that's from the

         18  videotape.  That would be page 18 of again that first

         19  audio tape.

         20       A.   Yes.

         21       Q.   And it's, sir, the question starting with

         22  "Robert," after the first paragraph.

         23            MR. RYNEVELD:  And for the Court's benefit,

         24  the play on this tape is at 11:30:46, and I had

         25  intended to play for -- it looks like two pages, to the

Page 1946

          1  top of page 20 of the transcript, where he completes

          2  his reply before Robert says, "Okay."  That would be at

          3  11:40:35.  Again, this may only be helpful if your

          4  counters match.  If not, it's of no use to you at all,

          5  but it's two pages.

          6       Q.   Now, sir, is it fair to say that in that

          7  excerpt, the accused discusses that special

          8  reconnaissance unit and the number of men in his unit,

          9  among some other things?

         10       A.   Yes, that's right.

         11       Q.   And these videotape highlights that we have

         12  selected, those are areas that we wish to draw to the

         13  particular attention to the Court as they relate to

         14  issues that we feel are relevant to the indictment.

         15       A.   Yes.

         16       Q.   Yes.  On that same page, sir, i.e. 20, where

         17  we had stopped, the last three sort of annotated

         18  paragraphs where it starts with "Robert," we would have

         19  started playing at 11:43:19, and that refers to

         20  injuries to his father and his return to Foca; is that

         21  correct?  And that goes -- basically his response stops

         22  about a third of way on the next page, 21?

         23       A.   Yes, that's correct.

         24       Q.   And the video counter number would have been

         25  stopped at 11:46:11; is that correct?

Page 1947

          1       A.   Yes.

          2       Q.   Now, I'm going to ask you a couple of

          3  questions about that general area, sir.  And to assist

          4  both the Court and the witness, if you could turn to

          5  page 24 of the first tape, about halfway down the

          6  page.

          7            I'm going to ask you, sir:  Did Mr. Kunarac

          8  make any responses to the question of how his unit was

          9  formed?

         10       A.   Yes.  Can I have that reference to the

         11  transcript again, sir.

         12       Q.   Yes.  Page 24, about halfway through the

         13  page?

         14       A.   Of which document?

         15       Q.   We're still talking about the 22nd of April

         16  1999 interview, and it still looks like tape 1 of the

         17  audio tape.  As a matter of fact, for that whole

         18  interview, we only seem to have one audio tape, so we

         19  don't have to worry about that?

         20       A.   Okay.  That's in respond to Mr. Kempf's

         21  question:  "Where did the initiative to form a

         22  reconnaissance unit come from?"

         23       Q.   That's correct, sir.

         24       A.   In response to that question, Mr. Kunarac

         25  said:  "The first time I received an order it was from

Page 1948

          1  the brigade command.  Actually, the brigade itself was

          2  in the process of formation at that time, and I was

          3  informed that the village of Jabuka was attacked.

          4  Actually, the village of Jabuka is sort of a complex of

          5  eight or nine smaller villages.  So I was sent there to

          6  see what was going on, and I had like ten men with me.

          7  Actually, there were ten men who were at disposal at

          8  that time who were free."

          9       Q.   All right.  And over to page 25.  Was there a

         10  discussion with Mr. Kunarac concerning where weapons

         11  and uniforms, et cetera, came from that were provided

         12  for his men?

         13       A.   In response to the question from Mr. Kempf to

         14  that effect, Mr. Kunarac said:  "Myself and a lot of

         15  people who came and who reported, we got the weapons

         16  from the Livade warehouse in Foca.  We got them from

         17  the Serb forces in Foca municipalities, either from

         18  civilian defence or Territorial Defence."  He then

         19  caries on discussing something else.

         20       Q.   All right.  Did he describe his uniform or

         21  any of the insignia?  Again on that page.

         22       A.   Yes.  When asked that question Mr. Kempf, he

         23  said:  "It was a two-part camouflage uniform.  Okay.

         24  We didn't have any insignia at the beginning, but later

         25  on during the war, we had a round sign with

Page 1949

          1  three-coloured flag with the inscription 'VRS' or the

          2  'Army Republika Srpska'."

          3       Q.   All right.  Turning me with you would,

          4  please, to page 26, the bottom third of that page.  I

          5  believe my co-counsel Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff asked a

          6  question.  It had to do with the types of weapons that

          7  were involved.

          8       A.   Yes.  Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff asked the question:

          9  "What kind of a weapon did you get?"  Mr. Kunarac

         10  responded:  "I've had an automatic rifle with a

         11  collapsible metal butt.  This is all I needed for

         12  weapons.  I have never had any other firearm, not a

         13  pistol or any other type of rifle.  About four months I

         14  had only this automatic rifle.  While I was in the

         15  field, I frequently had a knife because I needed to

         16  extract the mines, to clear the area around the

         17  mines."

         18            Mr. Kempf then asked:  "What was the calibre

         19  of the automatic rifle?"  Mr. Kunarac responded:  "7.6

         20  millimetres.  This was an automatic rifle of a

         21  Kalashnikov type, 7.6, an assault rifle that

         22  the Yugoslav army had."

         23            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The registrar

         24  would like to ask the Prosecutor to slow down and to

         25  make a breaks between the questions and answers because

Page 1950

          1  it is really too fast, and this would assist the

          2  interpreters in their work; otherwise, they will not

          3  manage.

          4            MR. RYNEVELD:  My apologies.

          5            The danger when interviewing a witness in

          6  English is to forget all about translation, and I do

          7  apologise to the interpreters for that.  It's not that

          8  I don't have enough time to finish this witness today.

          9       Q.   Would you turn with me please, sir, to

         10  page 35 of this transcript.  I'm skipping some now.

         11            Was there a discussion, starting at the top

         12  of the page, about the means by which Mr. Kunarac

         13  communicated with his superiors?  And you can pause in

         14  your response, if you wish.

         15       A.   In response to a question from Mr. Kempf,

         16  which was:  "How do you communicate with your

         17  superior?" Mr. Kunarac responded:  "While I was in the

         18  field, personally I had a radio transmitter, because

         19  such a task, a completion of such a task is not even

         20  conceivable without any means of communication.  In the

         21  beginning we had our RUP stations, RUP 3 and RUP 12,

         22  and we later on we had smaller radio transmitters."

         23       Q.   Thank you.  Would you turn with me next to

         24  page 37.  Oh, wait a minute.  I may be wrong here.

         25  Thirty -- my tab is on the wrong page.  Thirty-six.  My

Page 1951

          1  apology.

          2            Did he indicate to your investigator, sir,

          3  where the brigade headquarters were located?

          4       A.   Yes.  Mr. Kempf puts the question:  "You

          5  mentioned that there was a brigade command post in the

          6  building which is now a religious academy.  Is this the

          7  former prison for females at Velecevo?"  Mr. Kunarac

          8  responded:  "Yes."

          9       Q.   Then, as I understand it, he went on to

         10  describe details of those premises.  Is that correct?

         11       A.   Yes, he does.

         12       Q.   Turning next, if we could, please, to

         13  page 39.  Was there an ongoing discussion here about

         14  the brigade headquarters building?  About halfway

         15  through the page, sir.

         16       A.   Yes.  Mr. Kunarac says:  "So this is the

         17  complex of female prison."  Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff asks:

         18  "Were there any soldiers housed there or was it just

         19  purely the command post?"  Mr. Kunarac said:  "This was

         20  purely military command of the brigade.  There were

         21  actually located all the time, 10 to 15 military police

         22  officers that I mentioned before, and also about

         23  20 security guards for the premises itself.  This is

         24  the place what I was told it was, and this is the place

         25  I was meeting with brigade commanders.  I am not aware

Page 1952

          1  of any other function of that place.  It was not used

          2  as either prison or any other form of a detention

          3  facility."

          4       Q.   Turning next, if you would, with me, to the

          5  very bottom of page 40.  Was there some discussion

          6  about a different command post at Buk Bijela?

          7       A.   Yes.  Mr. Kempf asks:  "Can you tell me

          8  anything about the command post at Buk Bijela?"

          9  Mr. Kunarac responded:  "In the shortest, this was the

         10  command of the 4th Battalion."

         11       Q.   And over the page, sir, top of page 41, did

         12  Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff ask anything about the Foca

         13  Brigade?

         14       A.   Yes.  She asks:  "'Of the Foca Brigade' is

         15  the question."  Mr. Kunarac responded:  "Yes, of the

         16  Foca Brigade.  As I said before, the brigade consisted

         17  of five battalions.  So this is the command post for

         18  one of those battalions."

         19       Q.   All right.  Now, sir, we had intended, at

         20  that point, to turn next to the transcript page 43 and

         21  start the video at 14:40:05, where there is discussion

         22  about the command post at the Miljevina Hotel.  Is that

         23  correct?

         24       A.   That's right.

         25       Q.   And we had intended to play the balance of

Page 1953

          1  43, 44, right through to -- do you know the number?

          2  I've got it here -- page 51, halfway through the page,

          3  with the video stop number at 15:16:34.

          4            Now, please correct me if I'm wrong, sir, but

          5  as I understand it, the purpose of playing that area

          6  was to bring to the Chamber's attention the discussions

          7  about the command post at Miljevina Hotel, the chain of

          8  command.

          9       A.   Yes.

         10       Q.   The command post at Velecevo.

         11       A.   Yes.

         12       Q.   His various missions.

         13       A.   Yes.

         14       Q.   And his ability to select members for his

         15  unit.

         16       A.   Yes.

         17       Q.   All right.  Now, even though I'm glossing

         18  over this in this way, these are areas of obvious --

         19            JUDGE MUMBA:  Importance.

         20            MR. RYNEVELD:  -- importance in the view of

         21  the Prosecution.

         22            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  Yes.

         23            MR. RYNEVELD:

         24       Q.   We had intended next, sir, if I remember

         25  correctly, to turn to -- I seem to have lost the tab

Page 1954

          1  stop here.  Page 54.  Thank you.  I have still stickies

          2  here but -- no, I'm missing one.

          3            I see that it's about three minutes to

          4  eleven.  There is a video excerpt about fighting at

          5  Rogoj and the Kalinovik Brigade that I wanted to find,

          6  and I seem to have lost my tab in terms of what page

          7  that is.

          8            JUDGE MUMBA:  Perhaps we can rise early and

          9  give you an opportunity to rearrange your documents.  I

         10  realise that we changed the procedure suddenly.

         11            MR. RYNEVELD:  I've just lost the sticky.

         12  That's what's happened.  Thank you.

         13            JUDGE MUMBA:  So maybe we can rise now.  It's

         14  three minutes, but we will resume at 1130 hours.

         15                 --- Recess taken at 10.58 a.m.

         16                 --- On resuming at 11.28 a.m.

         17            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  We'll proceed.

         18            MR. RYNEVELD:  Thank you, Your Honour.

         19  Before I ask the next question of the witness, I might

         20  say that the reason I couldn't find my next start is

         21  because it was subsumed in the pages that I had

         22  earlier given a reference to.

         23            So I think I told you that we were going to

         24  play all the way to page 51.  Actually, I meant to stop

         25  at halfway on page 48, at tab 15 -- not tab.  Well,

Page 1955

          1  counter 15:04:23, and then skip through to the bottom

          2  of page 49 where we intended to start again.

          3            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.

          4            MR. RYNEVELD:  Thank you.

          5       Q.   Thank you.  If I can then would draw the

          6  witness's attention to the bottom of 49.  And we would

          7  have normally started playing at 15:08:18.

          8            Witness, I need to remind both you and I that

          9  although you and I are speaking truly simultaneously,

         10  apparently the translation takes a little while in

         11  between so that other people can hear.  So if you would

         12  pause after I finish speaking, and I will try to

         13  remember to do the same.

         14       A.   Okay.

         15       Q.   Bottom of page 49, sir.  Was there a

         16  discussion between your investigator and Mr. Kunarac

         17  about basically his role in Rogoj?

         18       A.   Yes.

         19       Q.   Is it fair to say, sir, that in that excerpt

         20  which starts at the bottom of page 49 through page 50

         21  and to halfway through page 51, he discusses basically

         22  the fighting at Rogoj between the parties to the armed

         23  conflict and discusses as well the Kalinovik Brigade?

         24       A.   Yes.

         25       Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... mentions

Page 1956

          1  dates and times and certain details about that

          2  incident; is that correct?

          3       A.   Yes, that's correct.

          4       Q.   We would have played until halfway through

          5  page 51 and stopped the tape at 15:16:34; is that

          6  correct?

          7       A.   Yes, that's correct.

          8       Q.   We were next going to turn to our ninth video

          9  excerpt, which was to be located at page 54, the bottom

         10  two responses basically at the bottom of page 54, the

         11  question by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, and start the play at

         12  15:28:02.

         13       A.   Yes.

         14       Q.   Would it be fair to say, sir, that this

         15  extract discusses in some detail who the accused refer

         16  to in his previous comments as "his men," more details

         17  about the premises and what went on at Ulica Osmana

         18  Djikica 16, the involvement of the Montenegrins from

         19  Niksic, and the discussion about the witness referred

         20  to by the pseudonym FWS-75 and his comments about her?

         21       A.   Yes.

         22       Q.   Sir, if you would turn with me to page -- I'm

         23  sorry.  Did I indicate that we would stop at the bottom

         24  of -- I'm sorry, a third of the way down 56 and stop at

         25  15:33:56.

Page 1957

          1       A.   Yes.

          2       Q.   Might we now turn to the following page, page

          3  57, about halfway through the page.  Is there a

          4  discussion there, in response to a question from my

          5  co-counsel, about the night the mosque, the Aladza

          6  mosque, was blown up?  Can you tell us about that?

          7       A.   Yes.  Mr. Kunarac was asked:  "Do you recall

          8  when this mosque was blown up?"  He said:  "At the

          9  moment it was blown up, I was on the Velecevo-Foca

         10  road.  I was close to the school centre, education

         11  centre.  I was in a car coming back from Velecevo.  It

         12  was on the 2nd of August, about half past eleven or

         13  about midnight or the time between.  We were coming

         14  back because we left the vehicle with the anti-aircraft

         15  machine gun, and I was travelling back towards Foca

         16  when that happened.  I don't know who did it, but I

         17  went to the brigade commander after that, and I know

         18  for sure that this was not done by the Engineering

         19  Unit, which had already been created and was the part

         20  of the brigade.  This was a unit of about ten men, and

         21  I found all of them there.  I spent" --

         22       Q.   Now, following that there is a further

         23  discussion about clarification of that statement.  Then

         24  I would like you to turn, if you would, with me,

         25  please, to page 63.  Again in response to my

Page 1958

          1  co-counsel's question -- it's about halfway down the

          2  page -- it indicates, "Hildegard:  Let me ask you

          3  another question."  Start playing -- we would start

          4  playing at 16:00:29, for the balance of that page and

          5  the next page about halfway, stopping at 16:05:36.

          6       A.   Yes.

          7       Q.   In that excerpt, sir, was there a discussion

          8  with Mr. Kunarac about the Independent Zaga Detachment

          9  and again further involvement about Montenegrins?

         10       A.   Yes.

         11       Q.   The bottom of that same page, was there a

         12  discussion about a group known as (redacted)?

         13       A.   Yes, there was.

         14       Q.   Can you briefly summarise what that

         15  discussion was about?  It's the bottom of that page and

         16  over the top of the next page.

         17       A.   In summary, Mr. Kunarac talks about the man

         18  (redacted), gives his assessment of this man.

         19       Q.   All right.  And how about the group itself?

         20  I'm now, in particular, referring to page 65, the

         21  group.  The question from Mr. Kempf was:  "Was it a

         22  military formation similar to yours?"  Perhaps you

         23  could just read that answer.

         24       A.   The answer of Mr. Kunarac was:  "Well, he was

         25  a member of a military unit that was a little bit wider

Page 1959

          1  and bigger than mine, and they had some special

          2  purposes.  It was one of the Intervention Units.  Each

          3  battalion had one Intervention Unit, and such a unit

          4  was built up usually from 15 to 30 men.  They were

          5  selected from the battalion among 350 or 400 men, and

          6  as the name suggests, the Intervention Unit was used to

          7  intervene in a case of attack, to be the first one to

          8  try to prevent the army, because at that time the Serb

          9  side was completely on the defensive.  We call it, in

         10  military terms, we call it the active defence.  We were

         11  observing the movements of the enemy, and we were

         12  getting ready for a possible attack.  So in case of

         13  attack, those units were meant to take the first impact

         14  on them.  Quite often those units were free or they

         15  were on standby to take the first.  To respond first in

         16  a case of an attack.  Other units had a sort of shift

         17  organisation.  They were like five days in the field

         18  and five days at home."

         19       Q.   Thank you.  Coming to, I think, the last

         20  reference in this transcript, sir, at page 67, about

         21  the top third of the page, Mr. Kempf asked about an

         22  individual referred to as DP3.  Can you indicate

         23  whether or not Mr. Kunarac responded and perhaps just

         24  the four lines of response for us?

         25       A.   Yes.  He responded:  "He was – DP3 was

Page 1960

          1  (redacted)

          2  (redacted)

          3  (redacted).  After

          4  him, there were other people, other men who led the

          5  group, but I would ask you not to speak too much about

          6  that group."

          7       Q.   Although I indicated, sir, that was the last

          8  reference, I have skipped a page.  I'm sorry.  Would

          9  you go back to page 66 with me.  You see the top of

         10  that page there is a -- well, just the top of that

         11  page.  There is a discussion there.  The first half of

         12  that talks about DP1 and (redacted).

         13            Can you just summarise -- or rather than

         14  summarise, can you just give that portion halfway

         15  through the page for us, please?

         16       A.   Mr. Kempf asks Mr. Kunarac about (redacted)

         17  (redacted).  Mr. Kunarac said:  "Yes.  This was also a

         18  group.  DP1 was in a group."  He went on to say:

         19  "They called themselves Guard, and the Guard would be

         20  the Elite Unit."

         21       Q.   Was there a clarification by

         22  Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff about what (redacted)

         23  (redacted)

         24       A.   Yes.  She draws Mr. Kunarac to the fact:

         25  "Some people referred to (redacted) as military

Page 1961

          1  police.  Is that correct?"  Mr. Kunarac responded:

          2  "They called themselves military police, but as far as

          3  I know, they have never been a part of the military

          4  police."  Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff went on:  "So the military

          5  policemen you mentioned this morning, they have nothing

          6  to do with these people?"  Mr. Kunarac replied:  "No.

          7  This was a completely different group.  They were very

          8  correct and very nice people."

          9       Q.   I see.  At the bottom of at that page as

         10  well, there's a reference to White Eagles.  Do you know

         11  anything about that or was there a response to that?

         12       A.   Yes.  Mr. Kempf asked Mr. Kunarac did he,

         13  Mr. Kunarac, ever work with that group the White

         14  Eagles.  Mr. Kunarac responded:  "Well, the term 'White

         15  Eagles' was used, but there was a Reserve Battalion

         16  composed, built up of retired men, elderly men retired,

         17  and we called them White Eagles balls of their white

         18  hair."

         19       Q.   And just to back up one more page to 65.

         20  There was a discussion at the bottom of that page about

         21  where DP1 belonged to, and over the top of the page --

         22  I guess I started at the top of 66.  I should have

         23  started at the bottom of 65.  Can you just read those

         24  two lines to us as well?

         25       A.   Sorry, from the bottom of 65?

Page 1962

          1       Q.   Sixty-five.  We've already done top of 66,

          2  but I didn't back you up far enough.

          3       A.   Mr. Kempf asks about the DP6 group.

          4  Mr. Kunarac responded:  "DP6 is a man I

          5  know.  He was in Foca with a number of men, (redacted)

          6  (redacted)

          7  (redacted)

          8       Q.   And the question was about whether DP1

          9  belonged there, and then the clarification was that he

         10  was with (redacted), is that right, and we've

         11  already read that?

         12       A.   Yes, that's correct.

         13       Q.   All right.  Thank you very much.  Might we

         14  now turn to a very few selections from the April 23rd

         15  interview.  That would be transcript Exhibit

         16  number 71.

         17            MR. RYNEVELD:  For the Court's benefit, I

         18  have only four references in this whole transcript.

         19       Q.   First of all, sir, if you would turn --

         20  again, this is the following day.  The same

         21  participants, I take it?

         22       A.   Yes.

         23       Q.   At the bottom of -- sorry.  The participants

         24  of the following day's interview start at page 1, and I

         25  believe Mr. Kempf again is introducing himself.

Page 1963

          1       A.   Yes.

          2       Q.   And at the top of page 2 he introduces the

          3  balance of the people in the room which will be seen

          4  actually on this video; is that correct?

          5       A.   Yes.

          6       Q.   And they include -- perhaps you can just tell

          7  us who was there.

          8       A.   All right.  Mr. Kunarac, Mr. Kempf,

          9  Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, Barbara Hanel, Slavisa Prodanovic.

         10       Q.   And I see Ms. Pilipovic and the interpreter

         11  are both there as well?

         12       A.   And the interpreter as well.  The same group

         13  of people, yes.

         14       Q.   All right.  And they continue on basically in

         15  the discussions on the following day; is that correct?

         16       A.   That's right.

         17       Q.   All right.  If I may turn first, if I would,

         18  please, to page 21 of this -- this one starts a new

         19  numbering with 1.  So page 21, please.  And the video

         20  would start playing at the counter 11:59:43, and it

         21  continues to the following page, about two-thirds of

         22  the way down, stopping with the words:  "In a house in

         23  Foca ...", stop at 12:02:06.

         24       A.   Yes.

         25       Q.   In that brief video extract, sir, do I

Page 1964

          1  understand correctly that there is a discussion by

          2  Mr. Kunarac concerning the Kalinovik primary school,

          3  reference to people who are referred to in these

          4  proceedings are FWS-191 and FWS-192, and messages that

          5  were passed between these individuals?

          6       A.   Yes.

          7       Q.   Thank you.  Skipping a few pages then to

          8  page 24.  We had intended to play at counter 12:07:53,

          9  which is at the bottom of the page, with Mr. Kunarac's

         10  reply starting with the words:  "So when I came to Foca

         11  about 2300 hours on the 2nd of August ...", through to

         12  a number of pages to page 28, about halfway through the

         13  page, where the last phrase is:  "I don't know who

         14  brought them."  No.  I'm sorry.  Stop it at:  "I needed

         15  to check the information she gave me."  Is that

         16  correct?

         17       A.   That's correct.

         18       Q.   And that is at counter number 12:24:00.

         19       A.   Yes.

         20       Q.   Now, is it fair to say, sir, that what we

         21  attempted to highlight in that excerpt is more

         22  information concerning the person referred to in these

         23  proceedings as FWS-191, a traffic accident, the house

         24  in Trnovace, and Witness FWS-86, among other things?

         25       A.   Yes.

Page 1965

          1       Q.   Those would be the highlights that we would

          2  wish to draw to the Court's attention from those pages?

          3       A.   Yes.

          4       Q.   Thank you.  Now, immediately after that

          5  video, at about halfway on page 28, did the accused

          6  Mr. Kunarac say when and where the women came from?

          7       A.   Yes.  He states:  "They were brought from the

          8  school, from the school building on the 2nd of August.

          9  I wasn't there when they were brought.  I don't know

         10  who brought them."

         11       Q.   All right.  And then I have one more video

         12  reference and one more question for you with respect to

         13  the transcripts.  At page 29, halfway the page, my

         14  co-counsel asks a question about, "Let's just return to

         15  that first occasion when you met her."  That, my

         16  understanding is, refers to FWS-86.  That starts --

         17  that video starts at 12:27:32, and would go the balance

         18  of that page for a few pages until two-thirds of the

         19  way down page 32, with the -- conclude with the words,

         20  "This is what I can say about this matter so far,"

         21  uttered by Mr. Kunarac?

         22       A.   Yes, that's right.

         23       Q.   And we would stop the video at 12:38:33?

         24       A.   Yes.

         25       Q.   Having said, that sir, is it safe to say that

Page 1966

          1  a very general description of what that talks about is

          2  DP6 and a person referred to by the nickname

          3  of (redacted) and discussions had with Witness FWS-86?

          4       A.   Yes.

          5       Q.   Finally, sir, with respect to this matter,

          6  would you turn with me to page 42?  About halfway the

          7  page, Mr. Kempf asks a question about other people in

          8  Partizan, and it refers to -- in context of the

          9  previous exchange that went on about the village.  I

         10  believe there is a reference to an individual coming

         11  from Trosanj and there is a discussion about other

         12  villages.

         13            Was there a discussion about where the other

         14  women in Partizan were from, about halfway the page?

         15  Now, when you read that response, would you take care

         16  not to read the names.  The initials of the first

         17  person referred to is DB, and the second person

         18  referred to is 87.  Do you see that?

         19       A.   Yes.

         20       Q.   Keeping those guidelines, would you please

         21  just read that response, that one paragraph.  And that

         22  DB is referred to twice, sir.

         23       A.   Yes.

         24       Q.   Thank you.

         25       A.   Mr. Kunarac's response was, "I don't know.  I

Page 1967

          1  spoke to DB but to nobody else.  I think that most of

          2  them were from that village.  There was approximately

          3  50 in there, mostly women, children.  So when I went to

          4  Partizan, I didn't know anybody over there, and then I

          5  asked for the people, for women who spoke to the

          6  journalist, and then as nobody replied, I took my

          7  notebook from my pocket and I said I need to talk to

          8  DB, 87, and two other names.  I need to talk to those

          9  who say that Zaga and Zaga's men took them out.  I

         10  stepped into the hall.  I may have taken three or four

         11  steps inside and that's when I called the names."

         12       Q.   Unless my co-counsel have anything else,

         13  those are the selected portions of the three

         14  transcripts that I wish to draw to the Court's

         15  attention.

         16            May I just check with my colleagues.  I have

         17  just a couple of other questions for this witness in

         18  general, not relating to these transcripts.

         19            Sir, do I also understand that in your

         20  capacity as team leader of this file, that you also

         21  participated in attempted photo board identification of

         22  some of the witnesses with respect to photo line-ups of

         23  suspects?

         24       A.   Yes.

         25       Q.   And, sir, because you would have names, do I

Page 1968

          1  understand correctly that you participated in some five

          2  of these photo board line-ups?

          3       A.   Yes, I did.

          4       Q.   And please correct me if I'm wrong, my

          5  understanding of the people -- do you have the numbers,

          6  by any chance, so that you can check?  I'm going to put

          7  a suggestion to you, unless my friends disagree.  Do I

          8  understand correctly that you were involved in Witness

          9  number 50?

         10       A.   Yes.

         11       Q.   Fifty-one?

         12       A.   Excuse me.  I'll just check if I have the

         13  numbers, if I could.  50, 51, yes.

         14       Q.   Sixty-one?

         15       A.   Yes.

         16       Q.   Sixty-two?

         17       A.   Yes.

         18       Q.   And 183.

         19       A.   Yes.

         20       Q.   Thank you, sir.  I have no further questions

         21  of you at this time.

         22            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you.  Mr. Kunarac, any

         23  cross-examination -- I'm sorry, Mr. Prodanovic.

         24  Cross-examination, please.

         25            MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

Page 1969

          1  Your Honour.

          2                 Cross-examined by Mr. Prodanovic:

          3       Q.   I am interested, sir, at whose initiative

          4  this first interview was given?  Who initiated it?

          5       A.   I understood that it was initiated or

          6  requested by the Office of the Prosecutor.  That was my

          7  understanding, and agreed to by Defence.

          8       Q.   And my second question is the following:  Can

          9  you tell me why the second interview came about?  At

         10  whose initiative?

         11       A.   I don't know the answer to that question.  I

         12  believe it would be the Office of the Prosecutor also,

         13  but really, I don't know.  I don't know.  Not for the

         14  second interview.

         15       Q.   Thank you.

         16            MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no

         17  further questions, Your Honours.

         18            JUDGE MUMBA:  Just to be complete;

         19  Mr. Kolesar?

         20            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I have no

         21  questions, Your Honours.

         22            JUDGE MUMBA:  Mr. Jovanovic.

         23            MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your

         24  permission, Your Honours, I have several short

         25  questions of this witness.

Page 1970

          1            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  You can go ahead.

          2            MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

          3  Your Honour.

          4                 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic:

          5       Q.   Good morning, sir.  You said, at the

          6  beginning of your testimony, that you have served in

          7  the police force for 23 years.  Is that correct?

          8       A.   Yes.

          9       Q.   I do apologise.  Unless this is confidential,

         10  can you tell us your rank?

         11       A.   Yes, my rank when I left New Zealand was

         12  Detective Senior Sergeant.

         13       Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us, during those 23

         14  years of service in the police force, what jobs did you

         15  perform?  Let me make this clearer.  Did you work in

         16  the traffic department, in the crime squad, crime

         17  department, that kind of thing?

         18       A.   Most of my service was in connection with

         19  criminal investigation, which generally involved the

         20  investigation of serious crime.

         21       Q.   Within the frameworks of your work in the

         22  police force, did your work include the identification

         23  of criminals via photo boards or photo line-ups?

         24       A.   Yes, it did.

         25       Q.   I don't need a detailed answer to my next

Page 1971

          1  question, but I would be interested in knowing whether

          2  for that type of identification there are any rules and

          3  regulations which you adhere to.  Let me make myself

          4  clearer.  Are there any rules which state, for example,

          5  the following:  That a certain witness will be shown a

          6  series of different photographs or has to be shown a

          7  series of different photographs?  Do you try and take

          8  these photographs from the same angle?  Are there any

          9  rules as to how this is conducted, this photo board and

         10  photo line-up is conducted when you wish to get a

         11  positive identification?

         12       A.   Yes, there are certainly rules, both where I

         13  come from and here, and those rules generally are very

         14  similar and most of it's common sense, really.  There

         15  normally has to be a certain number of photographs.

         16  The photographs can't be too dissimilar.  When the

         17  photographs are shown to a particular witness, you

         18  cannot invite any comment one way or the other.  You

         19  clearly have to accurately record the identification if

         20  it occurs or the non-identification if it occurs.

         21  Generally, if you're showing photo boards to a number

         22  of witnesses, if there is any chance that those

         23  witnesses would have contact in between times, you

         24  would normally show a different set of photographs.

         25  Those generally are the rules that I'm certainly used

Page 1972

          1  to.

          2       Q.   Very well.  If I understand you correctly,

          3  then those rules, in principle, and their basic premise

          4  are used in your work here at the Tribunal; is that

          5  correct?

          6       A.   Yes.

          7       Q.   Thank you?

          8            MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

          9  I now have a somewhat lengthy question, but with your

         10  permission, I should like to go ahead and ask it of the

         11  witness, if I may.

         12            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes, please.  Go ahead.

         13            MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

         14       Q.   Bearing in mind everything that we have heard

         15  in your testimony so far, your experience, the rules

         16  that exist in that sphere of work, let us take a

         17  hypothetical situation.  Individual A has the task of

         18  identifying person B.  Person A is shown three

         19  photographs.  On all three photographs, we have the

         20  same individual who is there to be identified.

         21            Would you consider that kind of

         22  identification valid?

         23       A.   The same person and three photographs, is

         24  that what you're saying?

         25       Q.   Yes.  And only those three photographs are

Page 1973

          1  shown.

          2       A.   No.  I wouldn't consider that valid

          3  identification.

          4            MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I

          5  have no further questions.

          6            JUDGE MUMBA:  Any re-examination,

          7  Mr. Ryneveld?

          8            MR. RYNEVELD:  Following from that last

          9  question.

         10                 Re-examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

         11       Q.   Sir, in this hypothetical situation, is there

         12  a difference in procedure between an identification

         13  process and a recognition process?  In other words,

         14  asking a witness to identify someone that they may

         15  recognise from a series of, say, hypothetically 12

         16  photographs or a different process known as a

         17  recognition process?  Is there a difference?

         18       A.   Yes.  Well, I understand there is a

         19  difference.  The circumstances I was discussing with

         20  counsel, I was referring to a clear identification

         21  process where a witness is endeavouring to identify

         22  somebody who committed some crime.  As I understand, a

         23  recognition process, as opposed to an identification

         24  process, is where the person shown in the photo is

         25  known to the person you were showing the photos to.

Page 1974

          1       Q.   Yes.

          2       A.   That's my understanding of the situation.

          3       Q.   Yes.  And in the same hypothetical situation,

          4  assuming that the person had indicated that they knew

          5  an individual A, putting the same hypothetical my

          6  friend put to you, i.e. the person is then shown three

          7  different photographs of a person to see whether or not

          8  she recognises that person as the one that she has

          9  identified as someone she knew, what can you say about

         10  to process in those circumstances?

         11       A.   Well, those circumstances are different.  If

         12  the witness has said and the evidence is clear that the

         13  person in the photos is known to the person viewing the

         14  photos, I would regard that process as being quite

         15  proper.

         16       Q.   Thank you.

         17            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you very much,

         18  Mr. Simpson.  We are through with you.  You are free to

         19  go.

         20            THE WITNESS:  Thank you, ma'am.

         21            MR. RYNEVELD:  As intimated, I am out of

         22  witnesses at this point, having calculate we would have

         23  taken the balance of the day with a slightly different

         24  process that was actually adopted.  My apologies to the

         25  Court.

Page 1975

          1            JUDGE MUMBA:  No, Mr. Ryneveld, you don't

          2  have to apologise.  The Judges are very happy to go and

          3  read other briefs.

          4            Thank you.  So we've come to the end of these

          5  proceedings.  You have something else?

          6            MR. RYNEVELD:  I've just been reminded by

          7  co-counsel that there is an issue she would like to

          8  raise concerning protective measures for a witness.

          9  Might we just take a moment to deal with that?

         10            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  Mr. Simpson can go.

         11                 [The witness withdrew]

         12            MR. RYNEVELD:  Thank you.

         13            MS. KUO:  Your Honours, on April 18th, we or,

         14  rather, the 19th, when we come back from the Plenary

         15  Session and our break, we intend to call Witness AS.

         16  And as she was added to the witness list after trial

         17  began, we did not formally request the specific

         18  protective measures for her testimony, and so at this

         19  point we would like to orally move this Court to grant

         20  her the protective measures that she has requested,

         21  which is voice and image alteration.  So that would be

         22  identical to the other protected rape victims.

         23            JUDGE MUMBA:  Voice and image alteration

         24  only.

         25            MS. KUO:  Yes, in addition to the

Page 1976

          1  confidentiality.

          2            JUDGE MUMBA:  I would like to hear from the

          3  Defence counsels whether there is any objection.

          4            Witness AS, who is the next witness the next

          5  time we sit, is seeking voice and image alteration in

          6  addition to the confidentiality.

          7            MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

          8  as far as the Defence for Mr. Kunarac is concerned, we

          9  have no objections to make.  As far as I was able to

         10  understand the proceedings, Witness AS does not have

         11  anything to do with my client actually, but I leave my

         12  colleagues to speak for themselves.

         13            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you.  Mr. Kolesar.

         14            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

         15  the Kovac defence has nothing against the necessary

         16  protective measures to be taken in respect of this

         17  witness because that has become standard practice.

         18            However, as I am on my feet, may I add asking

         19  else as well, please?  When during the examination of

         20  Witness 75 and cross-examination, there was an incident

         21  that took place because those of us who know the

         22  Serbo-Croatian language and Bosnian language, we know

         23  that the witness answered, "I do not know," to the

         24  question posed her.  My legal colleagues of the

         25  Prosecution intervened and said that the witness had

Page 1977

          1  answered, "No," rather than, "I do not know," and we

          2  were promised that by the end of this session we would

          3  receive the audio tape and the videotape as to what was

          4  actually recorded.

          5            According to the oral information we received

          6  from the Registry, we are expecting to get a written

          7  note from the interpreters and translators.  This was

          8  not what the Defence had asked for, and we should like

          9  to overcome this problem, and perhaps we could do this

         10  before the 19th when we go on to examine the witness.

         11            JUDGE MUMBA:  To do "this."  To do what?  I

         12  don't think I get you.  To do what before the 19th?

         13                 [Trial Chamber confers]

         14            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  Maybe I can ask the

         15  registrar's assistance.

         16            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The registrar

         17  would like to state that on the day of -- on that

         18  particular day, the audio cassette in B/C/S and the

         19  English transcript were submitted to the Translation

         20  Service in order to get any comments from the head of

         21  the Interpretation Service.

         22            This morning, orally, that particular person

         23  confirmed to me that Witness 75 had answered, "I don't

         24  know," to the question asked to her, and that we would

         25  soon receive, in the afternoon actually, we would

Page 1978

          1  receive an official memo from the Interpretation

          2  Service in order to confirm what I've just told you.

          3            JUDGE MUMBA:  Mr. Kolesar?

          4            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I'm satisfied

          5  with that answer.  Thank you.

          6            JUDGE MUMBA:  Mr. Jovanovic, on AS protective

          7  measures, any comments?

          8            MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No comments

          9  or objections, Your Honour.

         10            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you.  Anything else?

         11            MR. RYNEVELD:  No thank you.

         12            JUDGE MUMBA:  So we've come to the end of our

         13  proceedings for this week.  Our next sitting is on the

         14  19th and 20th of April, and the sittings will be at the

         15  same times, 0930 hours in the morning.

         16            My understanding on the protective measures,

         17  when there are no objections, are that they are

         18  granted.  So I just have to make it formally clear.

         19            All right.  The Court will adjourn.

         20                 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

         21                 12.10 p.m., to be reconvened on

         22                 Wednesday, the 19th day of April, 2000

         23                 at 9.30 a.m.