Page 2342
1 Wednesday, 26
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Would the registrar
7 please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case
9 IT-96-23-T, IT-96-23/1-T, the Prosecutor versus
10 Dragoljub Kunarac, Radomir Kovac, and Zoran Vukovic.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness. You are
12 still under solemn declaration and the
13 cross-examination will continue.
14 Counsel, continuing cross-examination.
15 MR. RYNEVELD: If I may, just before my
16 learned friend starts the continuation of the cross --
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.
18 MR. RYNEVELD: I'd like to indicate that you
19 might find this morning before you a copy of a letter
20 that we have sent for the benefit of the Defence and
21 for the Court to the effect that, time permitting, we
22 will be adding Witness 96 to the potential line-up of
23 witnesses this week, time permitting.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
25 MR. RYNEVELD: We didn't want to be in a
Page 2343
1 situation running out of witnesses again.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
3 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That's a good
5 precaution. I hope the Defence counsel will take note
6 and prepare for cross-examination of FWS-96, should we
7 come to that this week.
8 Yes, Mr. Prodanovic.
9 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
10 we received through the interpretation number 87, but
11 we now see that it is 96, and that is where I had got
12 on my hind legs. But now that is all right and I see
13 that it is 96, because the translation I was getting
14 was number 87. But as it's 96, that's fine. Thank
15 you.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Before you start, I think it's
17 a precaution sometimes, innocent documents like these
18 could be given also to the interpreters. It would save
19 us a lot of interpretation problems.
20 MR. RYNEVELD: I see that, Your Honour, and
21 it's a point we'll take into consideration. Thank you.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
23 WITNESS: WITNESS 95 [Resumed]
24 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
25 [Cont'd]
Page 2344
1 Q. Good morning, witness.
2 A. Good morning.
3 Q. When you gave your statements to the
4 investigators of the Tribunal, you stressed that during
5 the time that you were in Partizan, a journalist came
6 to visit, a female journalist.
7 A. Yes, she did.
8 Q. How many times did she come?
9 A. Twice.
10 Q. Were you present when she arrived?
11 A. Once I was. The first time I was not, but
12 the second time I was.
13 Q. And that first time you weren't there, you
14 say?
15 A. No, I was not present.
16 Q. Were you in Gorazde at the time?
17 A. Yes, I was.
18 Q. When you returned from Gorazde, did somebody
19 tell you that a journalist had come?
20 A. Yes, they did.
21 Q. Who told you?
22 A. Well, I don't remember. Some of the people
23 who were there.
24 Q. Did they tell you what was discussed with the
25 journalist at the time?
Page 2345
1 A. Yes, they did. They told me that they asked
2 how the people were, whether they were abused, whether
3 they were raped. There were three girls who were taken
4 out later on that same day, I think. Yes, they were
5 taken away that same day, never to return. And these
6 young girls, if you want to know, I could tell you
7 their -- well, not names but their numbers. They were
8 75, 87, and -- just one moment, please -- and DB.
9 Q. So on that day, after the journalists were
10 there, when you returned from Gorazde, they were taken
11 away; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And they never returned?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Were you told who took them away?
16 A. I think that people did say, but I don't
17 remember who they said had taken them away.
18 Q. Do you remember who told you who took them
19 away?
20 A. No, I don't remember.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we just correct one thing?
22 When the witness -- when you say that they were never
23 returned, you mean up till the time you left that
24 place, you never saw them again?
25 A. I don't understand your question. Could you
Page 2346
1 repeat it, please?
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel was asking you about
3 some of the girls who were taken away after the
4 journalist had been to Partizan, and that they were
5 never brought back to Partizan. When you say they were
6 never brought back, do you mean that they were never
7 brought back during the time that you were there?
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please proceed.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Q. In 1993 were you 28 years old?
12 A. Sixty -- just one moment, please.
13 Q. In 1993, I'm asking.
14 A. Yes, 23.
15 Q. No. In 1993, does that mean 28?
16 A. Yes, 28. Not quite -- well, yes, yes, that's
17 right.
18 Q. In 1993 did you live on the territory of the
19 former Yugoslavia?
20 A. In 1993, no.
21 Q. Do you remember whether in 1993, in October,
22 you gave a statement in front of cameras?
23 A. As far as those statements are concerned, I
24 gave one in Pazar, but how many statements I actually
25 gave and where, I do not remember, because I made a lot
Page 2347
1 of statements, and I do not wish the truth to be
2 hidden.
3 Q. Do you remember who you gave the statement to
4 in front of cameras?
5 A. No, I don't remember, and I'm not interested
6 in that today at all.
7 Q. Do you happen to recall that to some of the
8 journalists, the people you talked to, you mentioned a
9 list of names of Chetniks?
10 A. Well, probably I did mention it, yes, but I
11 could probably not remember those names now.
12 Q. I am going to, with the Court's permission,
13 give you a translation of a statement that you made in
14 English and in Serbian --
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, can you please
16 describe the document sufficiently for everybody to be
17 able to follow which document we are discussing?
18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] It is the
19 document we received from the Prosecution, and it has
20 been assigned Number 815106, and that document contains
21 the name and surname of the witness, her age, her place
22 of birth, and her statement that she accepts making a
23 statement in front of cameras. The document exists in
24 English, and we received it from our learned colleague
25 yesterday, and I think it was tendered to the Registry
Page 2348
1 and the Trial Chamber.
2 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes, and it
3 will be marked D42.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: For identification only,
5 Counsel.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Have you got the statement in front of you?
8 A. Yes, I have.
9 Q. Take a look at page 3 of that statement.
10 I apologise. I read -- the particulars on
11 page 1, do they refer to you? You don't have to read
12 them out, but is it correct?
13 A. Yes, it says my name. That's correct. Yes,
14 yes.
15 Q. Your place of birth?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And the statement that you accept being
18 interviewed on camera?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now look at page 3 of that statement. On
21 page 3, the third paragraph, it begins with your name,
22 and you say that you have a list. Did you, in fact,
23 state that, and did you have a list?
24 A. Well, whether I had that list and whether I
25 still remembered that, I don't know, although it was
Page 2349
1 fresh in my mind at the time. So if I stated that I
2 did have it, then most probably they told me that they
3 would come, so I compiled a list of that kind, because
4 at that particular time when you make statements of any
5 kind, individuals who have lived through and
6 experienced everything wouldn't be able to remember all
7 the names. But probably they told me in advance that
8 they were coming. And, yes, I made a statement. I
9 don't want to say that I didn't. They probably told me
10 in advance, and then I was able to compile a list. And
11 I stand by everything I stated here, because I always
12 told the truth.
13 Q. In this statement, probably according to the
14 list that you yourself made, you enumerate many names
15 and surnames, and you stated that you know them all.
16 On page 1 -- I don't want to read them all out, but you
17 begin with Pero Elez and the others?
18 A. Not that I knew them before but that they
19 would come -- came by at that time, at that moment.
20 Q. What moment?
21 A. Well, the moment that we were at the
22 secondary school building or Partizan; I'm not quite
23 sure. But the fact is that they came there.
24 Q. You even mention here, for the individuals on
25 the first page, what they were and how they looked,
Page 2350
1 your description of them?
2 A. Yes, if that's what it says. I can't read
3 through it all now, because I was never in a court of
4 law. I'm very nervous to be here. But what I did
5 state then, it was fresh in my mind, and it's probably
6 more exact than when you ask me now. When I read
7 through the names, I do remember them. But if I were
8 to read through five minutes later and if you were to
9 ask me who all the names were, I probably couldn't
10 repeat them.
11 Q. On page 4 of your statement, you mention
12 Zaga; the second line.
13 A. Just one moment, please. Do you want me to
14 read it out?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. "A man described as Zaga was also a prominent
17 figure. He is said to be the leader of the group from
18 Montenegro."
19 Q. Who described Kunarac to you?
20 A. Well, probably I described him before. Now,
21 whether this is stated or not, I don't remember,
22 because as I say, I gave many statements. And if I
23 were to give you a figure, I would probably be wrong,
24 but many, many of them.
25 Q. What did you know about Zaga when you had
Page 2351
1 that interview?
2 A. What did I know? Well, quite simply, I knew
3 what I stated here, madam.
4 Q. Well, you stated that he was the leader of a
5 group?
6 A. Well, yes. Probably that was fresher in my
7 mind, because that was only a year after the event and
8 so my memory was far better then than it is now.
9 Q. Did you say anything else, apart from what
10 you said?
11 A. I don't know. I don't remember.
12 Q. Why, on that occasion when you said all this,
13 did you not say that Kunarac had raped you?
14 A. Why I didn't say that? Well, I think that
15 all the people that I mentioned, I spoke the truth, and
16 I don't know, I would have to read through all that.
17 That's the first point. I would have to read through
18 this document to know exactly what I said, what I
19 stated in it. But I do stand by everything that I
20 stated.
21 Q. Well, in your statement, just in this portion
22 of the statement, you mention in general terms that
23 Zaga was a prominent figure, and you say nothing else
24 about him?
25 A. Well, probably that was in the short
Page 2352
1 interview that I had with the journalist, because in
2 the 40 -- to recount everything that happened to me in
3 those 40 days while my memory is fresh, I would need at
4 least ten days to tell my story and I still wouldn't
5 tell it all.
6 Q. But you said that you gave many, many
7 interviews?
8 A. Yes. Why not?
9 Q. Now, in those interviews or in your
10 statements, did you go into the details that were
11 probably fresh in your mind at the time?
12 A. Well, I don't remember that I went into
13 detail, but I talked about it in general terms. Their
14 questions were general, and what they asked me, I
15 answered. Whether I went into details or not, I really
16 don't remember.
17 Q. Well, you told us here yesterday, during your
18 testimony, that Mr. Kunarac took you off to Osman
19 Dzikic's house?
20 A. I don't know whose house it was.
21 Q. But you said that. You said, "In the street
22 by the Aladza mosque." Is that that street?
23 A. To Aladza, yes. Now, what the name of the
24 street was, I really don't know, and I don't believe
25 that I stated that yesterday. I don't believe I gave
Page 2353
1 the name of the street yesterday.
2 Q. Do you know whether a street like that exists
3 in Foca?
4 A. I don't remember anymore.
5 Q. When you were in that house by Aladza, you
6 said yesterday that Kunarac raped you for the first
7 time?
8 A. The first and second time, yes, when he took
9 me there.
10 Q. And was it that first time when you were with
11 him, you said that there were two other people, 90 and
12 105, with you?
13 A. Just one moment, please. Let me check. Yes,
14 90 and 105, that's correct.
15 Q. When you were in that house, were you just
16 raped by Kunarac?
17 A. I don't remember.
18 Q. Did these other two individuals tell you who
19 raped them?
20 A. I don't remember that either.
21 Q. When you were there for the second time, when
22 was that?
23 A. I don't remember the date.
24 Q. You said yesterday that it was before -- that
25 is, that the first time you went, you saw the Aladza
Page 2354
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14 the French and English transcripts.
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18
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20
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22
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Page 2355
1 mosque?
2 A. Yes. But the second time I went, the Aladza
3 mosque wasn't standing.
4 Q. And how long after that -- how long was it
5 after you heard that the Aladza mosque had been
6 destroyed?
7 A. Well, I can't tell you exactly, but -- no,
8 I'm afraid I can't tell you the exact date;
9 unfortunately, I cannot.
10 Q. Who did you go to the house on that occasion
11 with?
12 A. I don't remember.
13 Q. Who took you there?
14 A. I don't remember that either.
15 Q. Did Kunarac take you there or some of the
16 other soldiers?
17 A. I don't remember.
18 Q. Who was with you on that occasion, that
19 second occasion?
20 A. I don't remember that either. I don't
21 remember who was with me then, because I said
22 everything -- everybody except number 51. All of them
23 were taken out with me, except that particular
24 individual. Where, when, what time, I no longer
25 remember any of that because I don't wish to think
Page 2356
1 about it, I don't wish to recollect it.
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you
3 very much. I have no further questions.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Counsel.
5 Mr. Kolesar, any questions?
6 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your
7 Honour.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic, any questions?
9 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence
10 of Mr. Vukovic does have questions.
11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not
12 hear the answer.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: The interpreters didn't hear
14 your answer. Your microphone, yes.
15 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I said, yes,
16 Your Honour, the Defence of Mr. Vukovic does have
17 questions for this witness.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please proceed.
19 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
20 Your Honour.
21 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic:
22 Q. Good morning.
23 A. Good morning.
24 Q. At the beginning of our conversation I have
25 to ask you: You have the list of the numbers and codes
Page 2357
1 in front of you. Do you know the persons marked as
2 FWS-50 and 51?
3 A. Which numbers?
4 Q. 50 and 51. Do you know them?
5 A. Yes, I know all these women.
6 Q. Can I ask you something, please. I'm going
7 to ask you questions, and you answer them for me,
8 please, as briefly as possible.
9 A. Okay.
10 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask
11 the usher for his assistance, please.
12 Your Honour, with your permission, I should
13 like to show the witness the code and name of one of
14 the protected witnesses to avoid mentioning the name
15 and in order to ask her whether she knows that person.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Are you related to these persons that I
18 referred to just now, these three persons?
19 A. I am not, but my husband is related to them.
20 Q. From your response, I assume one could say
21 you married into that family, as we like to put it.
22 A. Yes. Yes, I did.
23 Q. Therefore they are related to you as well as
24 to your husband, are they not?
25 A. Yes.
Page 2358
1 Q. Are you in touch with your family, with the
2 persons that I have just listed?
3 A. No, I am not, because of various shifts and
4 various other reasons that I don't want to go into, I
5 have not been in touch with them for more than two
6 years.
7 Q. Thank you. Theoretically speaking, if we
8 forget the period prior to the war in Foca, you might
9 have seen Zoran Vukovic from the moment you were taken
10 into custody until you were released from Foca, in that
11 period of time?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. How long was that period of time?
14 A. I have forgotten the dates.
15 Q. The morning you were attacked was --
16 A. The 3rd of July until the 13th of August.
17 Forty days.
18 Q. Fine, 40 days. Why do you link Zoran Vukovic
19 to the Partizan Sports Hall?
20 A. I'm afraid I don't understand the question.
21 Can you repeat it?
22 Q. Of course. If there is a theoretical
23 probability that you could have seen Zoran Vukovic in
24 this 40-day period, why do you associate his appearance
25 in your life with the events in the Partizan Sports
Page 2359
1 Hall?
2 A. Because I am sure that he took me out.
3 Where, when --
4 Q. Thank you. We'll come to that. Just a
5 moment, please. Slowly.
6 Are you quite sure that this was only in
7 Partizan?
8 A. No, I'm not sure that it was only in
9 Partizan, or whether it was also in the secondary
10 school, but I am quite sure that he did take me out.
11 Q. So now you're mentioning the secondary school
12 as well.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Any other place?
15 A. I don't know what you mean, what other place,
16 because --
17 Q. Let me try and help you. I have been
18 listening to various locations, and I will list some of
19 them, and when I mention them, please stop me. For
20 instance, Mjesaja.
21 A. No, not in Mjesaja.
22 Q. Trosanj?
23 A. I wasn't in Trosanj.
24 Q. Buk Bijela?
25 A. Buk Bijela, when they returned me from the
Page 2360
1 stadium to Buk Bijela, I don't remember, because --
2 Q. Very well. The house in Aladza?
3 A. I don't remember where it is.
4 Q. The Gornje Polje, Donje Polje house?
5 A. I don't remember at all.
6 Q. Just let's take it slowly, please. Do you
7 remember or do you not remember?
8 A. I do not remember.
9 Q. If I understand you properly, you remember
10 that he took you out from the secondary school and from
11 the Partizan Sports Hall.
12 A. I am repeating again: I do not remember
13 whether he was in Buk Bijela on the 12th of August,
14 whether it was in the secondary school centre, or in
15 Partizan.
16 Q. If I am following what you are saying, you
17 don't remember where you saw Zoran Vukovic; you just
18 remember that you saw him.
19 A. Yes, I saw him, and I am quite sure that he
20 took me out and he raped me.
21 Q. But you don't know where that took place?
22 A. How can I know? I didn't know what day or
23 night it was, whether it was morning or what.
24 Q. But you told us yesterday that this happened,
25 or rather that Zoran Vukovic took you out from the
Page 2361
1 Partizan Sports Hall. Now you've told us that it also
2 occurred while you were in the secondary school centre,
3 and now you're telling us that you do not remember any
4 of those things. Please make up your mind.
5 A. I'm repeating: He took me out. Where from,
6 I don't remember. I am telling the truth. Whether it
7 was the secondary school centre, Partizan, or Buk
8 Bijela, I don't remember, but I am sure 100 per cent
9 that he did it.
10 Q. You're always telling the truth, and you
11 expect that by repeating that truth, that truth will be
12 spread in the world. That is what you have been
13 repeating yesterday and today innumerable times.
14 A. Yes. Why should the truth be covered up? I
15 agree with you. Whatever side committed crimes has to
16 be punished. I quite agree with you.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Please wait for the
18 interpretation.
19 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
20 Honour. I'm sorry. I get carried away.
21 Q. So there is only one truth; so we can agree
22 on that, can we not?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you ever tell anyone that Zoran Vukovic
25 took you out and raped you from the secondary school
Page 2362
1 centre?
2 A. Now, I do not remember.
3 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't hear you quite well.
4 You don't remember whether you told anyone or you --
5 A. No. I don't remember whether I told anyone,
6 but probably in those statements to the media, the
7 longer ones --
8 Q. Let me clarify the question. Did you ever
9 tell the Tribunal's investigators that Zoran Vukovic
10 had taken you while you were in the secondary school
11 centre and raped you?
12 A. You have in front of you, as I do, the
13 statements I made, the many things I said.
14 Q. Yes. You said a great many things. That's
15 why we're talking about it.
16 A. Whether they asked me that particular
17 question, I don't remember.
18 Q. So you think that perhaps you may have told
19 the investigators and they didn't take it down?
20 A. No, that's not what I mean. If I mentioned
21 it, and I think I did, I don't think I mentioned any
22 particular one in detail. I described things in
23 general terms.
24 Q. You see, I'm not asking you anything
25 generally; I'm asking you things very specifically.
Page 2363
1 A. I think I did mention his name.
2 Q. You see, we could slowly go through both your
3 statements to the investigators, your statement to the
4 journalists, but this would take a great deal of time.
5 But I can tell you that you did not mention him in any
6 of those statements.
7 A. Sir, after so many men, I simply could not
8 register all of them.
9 Q. I understand. We have heard your version of
10 the story. My question now is --
11 A. What is the question?
12 Q. The question is the following: The
13 indictment charges Zoran Vukovic of taking you out and
14 raping you in the secondary school centre. At the
15 beginning of trial this was given to us in the list.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution.
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, there is no
18 charge on this. There's no charge on this.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, I hope you have
20 heard -- you have the indictment. Why don't you quote
21 the count?
22 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
23 I had not intended to go through the indictment count
24 by count. I just wanted to say that in the document
25 that we were given by the Prosecution at the beginning
Page 2364
1 of trial, on a piece of paper, a map of events was
2 drawn, linked to the various locations and persons.
3 Mr. Zoran Vukovic, in relation to this witness who is
4 testifying today, is marked as a person who raped in
5 the secondary school centre. I'm talking about this
6 document, Your Honour. We have all received a copy at
7 the beginning of trial. The witness FWS-95, Vukovic,
8 Foca High School. I think that's how you pronounce it.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, but you know how to
10 interpret such documents. And look at the witness.
11 She is not the Prosecutor. So ask her questions,
12 factual questions, all right? Don't take the legal
13 interpretation of the Prosecutor and put it to the
14 witness. That is not how you do it.
15 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
16 I'm sorry if I did not phrase my question properly, but
17 let me try and rephrase it.
18 Q. Did the witness tell the investigators that
19 Zoran Vukovic had raped her in the secondary school
20 centre?
21 A. I don't know. I probably did, but when, I
22 don't know.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Let me explain the other
24 problem I think I'm noticing. You see, every
25 investigator, just like every journalist, has his own
Page 2365
1 or her own agenda, and when they're interviewing
2 anybody, they will ask questions elicited to produce
3 what they want for their own agenda. So even the
4 investigators who go to these witnesses have their own
5 agenda, and they only elicit from the witness what they
6 want to fulfil their own agenda, all right?
7 So it's totally different from the Court
8 situation, because we have an indictment before us and
9 we want only evidence to cover the indictment, that's
10 all. You've heard me so many times cautioning
11 witnesses: Only answer questions put to you by
12 counsel. All right? So when you are dealing with what
13 you said to this investigator, what you said to this
14 journalist, always remember that. The witness knows so
15 much about what happened to her, so much about what
16 happened during the war. And this was war time. So
17 everybody has their own agenda. So whatever is
18 elicited, signed by the witness, is according to that
19 agenda. Please remember that.
20 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
21 Your Honour. I shall strictly abide by your
22 instructions.
23 But as Defence counsel for Zoran Vukovic, I
24 have to put these questions to the witness, in view of
25 the fact that nowhere in the materials disclosed to us
Page 2366
1 is any mention made of Zoran Vukovic, never mind the
2 high school. That is why I'm asking the witness that
3 perhaps there may be a misunderstanding of some sort if
4 the investigator did not do his work properly. That's
5 why I'm asking the witness, did she say that, when she
6 said that, to clear this thing up, because as Defence
7 counsel, I do have an interest because, after all,
8 Zoran Vukovic has been charged with this.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Don't you think that you have
11 got an answer from her now? She says she may have, she
12 doesn't know. Now, you don't have to accept that and
13 you can challenge it. But by asking the same question
14 over and over again doesn't really help us, and I'm
15 sure it's not helping your client. That's what our
16 concern is. Let us get on with the matter. You've
17 made the point. It's not referred to in any of the
18 statements. You've asked her whether she may,
19 nevertheless, have said it. She said she may have, she
20 doesn't remember. Now, if you want to challenge that
21 last answer, do so, but don't keep asking the same and
22 other questions over and over again, please.
23 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will not,
24 Your Honour. If I may have a moment, please.
25 Q. If we assume that it is possible that you
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19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 2368
1 made such a statement, do you remember that statement?
2 A. No, I do not.
3 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't hear you.
4 A. No, I do not remember.
5 Q. Thank you. I should like to talk to you
6 about the Partizan Sports Hall.
7 At the beginning, let me ask you whether
8 yesterday, here in court and in front of all of us, did
9 you say for the first time that Zoran Vukovic took you
10 out of the Partizan Sports Hall and raped you?
11 A. I don't understand the question.
12 Q. My question is: Did you, for the first time
13 yesterday, state that Zoran Vukovic took you out of the
14 Partizan Sports Hall and rape you?
15 A. I'm sure that that was not the first time,
16 that I had mentioned his name previously.
17 Q. Can you tell us, when did you mention his
18 name earlier on in connection with Partizan, to whom
19 and when?
20 A. I don't remember to whom, where, or when. I
21 wasn't interested. All I know is that he did. But the
22 dates for me are not important.
23 Q. I'm not interested in dates either. I'm just
24 interested in what I have just asked you. Zoran
25 Vukovic is not mentioned in any of the statements at
Page 2369
1 our disposal in connection with Partizan. That's why
2 I'm asking you whether you said this for the first time
3 yesterday or not.
4 A. No, it wasn't the first time.
5 Q. You don't remember when you mentioned Zoran
6 Vukovic before yesterday?
7 A. No, I don't remember.
8 Q. I assume, and you have confirmed now, that
9 you remember the things you went through. Of course, I
10 understand that you cannot remember all the details of
11 the things that happened during that 40-day period
12 because it was eight years ago, but you remember the
13 events?
14 A. Not any one of us who went through this can
15 remember those events in detail.
16 Q. Yes. But you remember them in general terms,
17 not of the details?
18 A. It's almost eight years, isn't it.
19 Q. You don't remember the details?
20 A. No.
21 Q. But you do remember the events?
22 A. Not individually.
23 Q. I'm asking you specifically. Let me make
24 myself clear. All my questions refer exclusively to
25 Zoran Vukovic.
Page 2370
1 A. No, I don't remember.
2 Q. I'm sorry. I don't understand what it is you
3 don't remember.
4 A. I don't remember the details linked
5 specifically to him.
6 Q. Yes, you don't remember the details. But you
7 remember the event?
8 A. No, I don't remember the event either,
9 because I want to forget as soon as I possibly can.
10 Q. During the identification yesterday, you said
11 that you remember well the face -- page 50, lines 1 to
12 12 of the LiveNote -- and that he looked the same, only
13 his hair is a little longer. You mean now or before?
14 A. Before, it was longer.
15 Q. From that, I infer that you remember the face
16 well.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you know his name, the name of that
19 person?
20 A. Are we talking about Zoran Vukovic? At the
21 time, at first I didn't know, but somebody said that
22 that was his name. Who said it, I don't remember.
23 Q. Can you remember when you linked the face to
24 the name?
25 A. That face and that name, I linked the two
Page 2371
1 yesterday when I saw people who had known him.
2 Q. Just a moment, please. If I'm following
3 well, yesterday, when you entered the courtroom, you
4 linked that face to that name?
5 A. Yes, because I can't recollect those names
6 anymore, nor do I want to remember the names or the
7 faces.
8 Q. Very well. Yesterday, in your statement, you
9 said -- regarding the events in which you and Zoran
10 Vukovic were participants, I shall try to summarise,
11 but please correct me if I go wrong. You don't
12 remember how many times that happened?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You don't remember who Zoran Vukovic came
15 with, alone or with others?
16 A. No, I don't remember.
17 Q. You don't remember where he took you?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You don't remember whom he took you with?
20 A. I don't remember that either.
21 Q. You don't remember where he took you?
22 A. I don't remember that either.
23 Q. Well, then how can you be sure that it is
24 precisely Zoran Vukovic and that it happened precisely
25 in Partizan, when you can't remember anything else
Page 2372
1 apart from his face, with a slightly longer or shorter
2 hair?
3 A. I don't understand the question, sir. Can
4 you repeat it?
5 Q. I will. You have just confirmed that you
6 didn't remember the face, you don't remember all these
7 things?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. May I ask you the questions, please? You
10 have just confirmed that in relation to Zoran Vukovic,
11 you do not remember absolutely anything except Zoran
12 Vukovic, a person who looked in such and such a manner
13 and who had longer or shorter hair; you don't remember
14 anything else?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. My question is how, then, can you be sure
17 that that is the Zoran Vukovic who took you out from
18 Partizan, the high school, or from any other place when
19 you don't remember anything else?
20 A. I'm quite sure it is his face. I don't need
21 his name.
22 Q. I'm not denying that you may have seen him
23 somewhere. My question is quite a different one. Will
24 you please answer my question?
25 A. How can I be sure? I can be sure because of
Page 2373
1 his face.
2 Q. But, you see, that puts us in a rather
3 strange situation, if you see someone somewhere and, on
4 the basis of having seen him, you simply infer that
5 such and such a thing happened with that person.
6 A. No.
7 Q. Yes. But you don't remember anything except
8 for Zoran Vukovic?
9 A. I don't remember his name, I don't remember
10 his name just now. I just remember his face, sir.
11 Q. Tell me, please, as you have just said that
12 that happened yesterday when you came here into the
13 courtroom, that you linked up Zoran Vukovic, the name,
14 the face, and everything else, what happened when you
15 entered the courtroom? You remembered something; is
16 that right?
17 A. Yes. I remembered that because I was so
18 nervous, I was so tense, that I could have screamed.
19 Q. I'm interested in knowing what you remembered
20 exactly. This happened yesterday.
21 A. How do you mean, what I remembered? When I
22 saw his face, when I saw his face. I didn't know his
23 name, I didn't know his surname, nor am I interested in
24 that today either. But when I saw his face, I was so
25 angry, so terribly angry and nervous.
Page 2374
1 Q. So if I understand you correctly, when you
2 came in here, you recognised him, but you didn't
3 remember anything?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Very well.
6 A. Because of all the people that were there,
7 how could I remember all their names?
8 Q. Very well. You said several times here that
9 your memory, recollections -- and this is, of course,
10 quite natural -- were much better --
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, after the questions
12 you've just asked and the witness's answers, she has
13 rushed in, okay, so please proceed with your questions,
14 understanding that we've been through that.
15 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
16 Honour, and I am continuing with my questions. My next
17 question has nothing to do with the previous one.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
19 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] My question
20 is now as follows:
21 Q. Why -- let me put it this way: As you knew
22 that face so well and your memory was so good eight
23 years ago, why did you not at any time mention that
24 face to anybody, describe it, say what the man had done
25 to you, what you had experienced, because the truth
Page 2375
1 should be known?
2 A. Yes, that's true, that would have been very
3 easy, it would be easy for me to describe him. But how
4 could I describe him when I didn't know what his name
5 was? How could I describe him? What should I say? I
6 know all their faces, but I do not know their names.
7 Carry on, continue.
8 Q. I shall. Thank you. May we return -- we
9 could return and read through your statements again
10 here, but in your statements you describe other people
11 as well, people whose names you didn't know either.
12 You didn't only say names, and you didn't say that and
13 that individual did such and such a thing, but there
14 are a certain number -- I don't want to quote the exact
15 number -- there are a certain number of other people
16 for whom you say did such and such a thing, without
17 mentioning their names, whereas this individual did
18 serious harm to you?
19 A. Not only him but many others too, and
20 therefore I don't know how many of them there were.
21 Q. But you remember him?
22 A. Not only his face but all their faces. I
23 remember all their faces, but not their names; nor am I
24 interested in them.
25 Q. In my opinion, it is quite normal, when
Page 2376
1 somebody attacks somebody, that the victim need not
2 know the name of her aggressor, attacker, and that is
3 why I find it strange.
4 I have another set of questions to ask you
5 now.
6 Before your testimony yesterday here in the
7 courtroom, did you -- that is to say, did you talk to
8 anybody from the Prosecution before giving your
9 statement, that is to say, in the last four, or five,
10 or six days; a week, let's say?
11 A. How do you mean? I don't understand what you
12 mean.
13 Q. What I mean is this: Did you, before you
14 appeared to give your testimony here in court
15 yesterday, did you have a meeting with the Prosecution?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. On that occasion, did they tell you what they
18 were going to ask you, what photographs they were going
19 to show you, and things of that kind?
20 A. Well, no, they just -- not to tell me what
21 they would ask, they just said, "The papers you have
22 already given earlier, stated earlier, do you remember
23 that?" And I said that, "I remember all of that, but
24 to a lesser extent," which is normal in view of the
25 amount of time.
Page 2377
1 Q. I asked you that because something very
2 strange happened here in the courtroom yesterday, and
3 luckily everything is recorded here, and when the usher
4 came up to you to give you a photograph -- I don't
5 remember the exact number -- before he arrived, before
6 he actually reached you, you identified what was on the
7 photograph?
8 A. Yes, but the photograph is a big one, and I
9 know what it -- the secondary school looks like and the
10 Partizan looks like. I know that well enough and I'll
11 never forget it. And he was carrying it from there and
12 I could see it. It's not that you couldn't see it. I
13 could see it. And, sir, you can read names from there,
14 let alone see photographs.
15 Q. No, I can't, madam, but very well.
16 In your statement which was given number
17 75 -- it was Exhibit 75 -- on page 8, paragraph 6, you
18 said, "Some other men journalists I knew speak about
19 events from the Partizan Sports Hall and the arrival of
20 the journalists." If I understand you correctly, the
21 journalists came twice, did they not?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. The first time you were not present?
24 A. No, I was not present.
25 Q. On the second occasion you were present?
Page 2378
1 A. Yes, I was present, and they talked to me.
2 Q. In your statement you say that the
3 journalists were men.
4 A. The first time there was a woman who came,
5 and the second time there were two men.
6 Q. But you didn't see the female journalist?
7 A. No, I didn't see the female journalist,
8 because she came on the first occasion.
9 Q. Well, how would you recognise her in the
10 street, which you said yesterday? You said, "If I were
11 to see her in the street, I would recognise her."
12 That's what you said yesterday.
13 A. Well, she came.
14 Q. Who?
15 A. The journalist, the woman journalist.
16 Q. When?
17 A. In front of the Partizan. She didn't go into
18 the Partizan, because I was sitting by the door, and
19 two men were talking to me. She was not. She was in
20 front of the door, and this was at a distance of, say,
21 from here to where you're standing.
22 Q. So you remember that. You remember that
23 event and you have now recounted it to me.
24 A. Yes. I remember her face.
25 Q. Why did you never describe that in that way?
Page 2379
1 A. How do you mean, describe?
2 Q. Why did you never tell what you are telling
3 me here today to anybody before, that the journalist
4 was outside, that I --
5 A. Did I ever mention details here? No, I did
6 not. I speak in general terms.
7 Q. Well, very well. I'm asking you the details
8 now. We have to come to the details sometime.
9 A. Okay.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Counsel. She didn't give
11 details because she wasn't asked for details. So don't
12 say, "How come you never described this?"
13 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
14 with all due respect to the Court, and without any wish
15 to understand what I'm saying as any sort of criticism
16 or uncouthness on my part, we do not know what the
17 investigators asked her, and I am trying to get at
18 that, what it was.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, without repeating the same
20 questions.
21 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Listening to your testimony here yesterday, I
23 came to a conclusion, and that is that on the basis of
24 the appearance of an individual, you are able to -- on
25 the basis of somebody's appearance, that you know what
Page 2380
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8
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18
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20
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22
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Page 2381
1 happened to that individual immediately beforehand. We
2 have two examples of this. One example is Witness 48
3 and the events which -- the event which took place in
4 your presence but from another room. You know what I
5 mean?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. That is one occurrence. The second event was
8 linked to Witness 50. Her code number is 50. Very
9 well. Now, I'm interested in getting the following
10 explanation from you. You see Witness 50, for
11 example. You see her going out of the workers'
12 barracks in Buk Bijela, I think.
13 A. Yes, that's right.
14 Q. What happened to her?
15 A. I don't know in concrete terms specifically
16 what happened to her, but this girl -- she's now a
17 woman -- left all covered -- all red and crying. I
18 couldn't know that they would be -- that they would do
19 this to her, but later on I came to realise and
20 understood what was going on and what was happening.
21 Q. So at that particular moment you don't know
22 what had actually happened to her?
23 A. Well, how could I know exactly when I didn't
24 actually see it?
25 Q. Well, that's why I'm asking you, because you
Page 2382
1 said that you saw her and you knew what had happened.
2 A. Well, I saw what she looked like, but I
3 wasn't conscious of the fact that that was what they
4 were going to do to her and that was what they did to
5 her. But when it happened to me and when Tuta raped
6 me, then I knew what had happened to her.
7 Q. Very well. So your knowledge and realisation
8 came later on, not at that particular moment?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Very well. Now, these doubts of yours as to
11 the events that Witness 50 went through, did anybody
12 confirm this, confirm your doubts, anybody?
13 A. Well, it's like this: That young girl, after
14 she left the Partizan Sports Hall, she was not in Novi
15 Pazar, and I never saw her again. And it's stupid to
16 speak about it over the phone, particularly for a young
17 girl, an unmarried girl.
18 Q. I just asked you whether she or anybody else
19 confirmed your doubts as to what had happened to her.
20 A. I don't remember.
21 Q. Suspicions.
22 A. I don't remember.
23 Q. Do you know what happened to her?
24 A. Well, yes, I can assume, and I am 99 per cent
25 certain of what happened to her.
Page 2383
1 Q. Very well. Do you know whether Witness 50,
2 in the experience she had, the event that took place
3 and the incident she took part in, did she recount this
4 to anybody else?
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. Do you know whether that witness made
7 statements as well to the investigators of the Tribunal
8 and that she testified before this Trial Chamber?
9 A. I don't know, and I wasn't interested. And
10 it would be shameful if any of them were to cover the
11 truth, try to mask the truth.
12 Q. Well, yes. That is precisely why I am asking
13 you that question. If it is a shame not to tell the
14 truth and to hide the truth, and if you and all of us
15 here wish to learn the truth, then I'm interested in
16 knowing why you kept quiet for eight years.
17 A. I did not keep quiet, because I gave
18 statements. I gave statements both to the
19 investigators and to the journalists and to everybody
20 else. I went public on television even.
21 Q. Yesterday here for the first time you talked
22 about the event in Buk Bijela, and that is precisely
23 why I'm asking you my question.
24 A. No, that's not true. It's not true that I
25 did so the first time.
Page 2384
1 Q. I apologise for taking up everybody's time,
2 but I have to return --
3 A. Just one moment, please. Are you thinking
4 about number 50? Is that what you're asking about,
5 number 50? If you're asking about number 50, we didn't
6 like to talk about it, because she was not married.
7 She was a young girl. She is now a woman, married, and
8 has a child.
9 Q. Very well. We'll come to that in a moment.
10 A. And sir, I am not interested in any of the
11 other women. I'm interested in myself personally.
12 Q. But the truth should be known; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Very well, then. Let's go ahead. A moment
15 ago, towards the end of your questioning, you said,
16 when you took a look at the list in front of you, that
17 except for individual under number 51, that all the
18 others were taken out together with you in different --
19 at different times, and that they were all raped.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Right. Now I should like to ask you to
22 explain the difference to me between the events that
23 took place in Buk Bijela -- and I am exclusively
24 speaking about number 50. I'm speaking about number
25 50, just so we're clear on that. Now, you explain the
Page 2385
1 difference to me. There is an occurrence that takes
2 place in Buk Bijela, which you did not see, and you
3 conclude, assume something, because you see what the
4 person looks like, and you say that 99 per cent you're
5 sure of what that meant and you don't wish to speak
6 about that, for some -- let us say some reasons. That
7 is to say, you wish to protect that individual. But,
8 on the other hand, you can state that that particular
9 individual, and she is a young girl, because it all
10 happens in the space of 40 days, was raped afterwards,
11 I don't know how many times, by the Serbs. Now, where
12 is the difference there? Why can you say one thing and
13 not say another?
14 A. Well, I don't think I mention her name
15 anywhere. I just enumerate. But at that particular
16 moment, probably unconsciously I said later on that she
17 was later on raped, probably not consciously, because I
18 was very sorry for all the other girls and what
19 happened to them here on this list.
20 Q. Yes, I understand you. When you said -- when
21 you spoke a moment ago, you were saying it
22 unconsciously?
23 A. Yes, I unconsciously said that number 50 was
24 raped. If I stated later on -- I think because, as I
25 say, they are relatives of my husband, my husband's
Page 2386
1 family.
2 Q. So you're protecting her, are you?
3 A. Well, of course I'm protecting her.
4 Q. Why? Don't you wish the individuals to be
5 punished?
6 A. Yes, I do, and I want to state the truth.
7 She is now a married woman. She has her own family.
8 Q. Yes. That's very -- that's all right. We
9 don't want to go into what she is now. But explain
10 another point to me, please. Had this trial not come
11 about, and had you not been invited to attend here as a
12 witness, you would never have ever told anybody what
13 happened to Witness 50 in Buk Bijela, for example, and
14 what happened to her later on in the secondary school,
15 the Partizan Sports Hall, or wherever?
16 A. Well, I would have told somebody, as she had
17 married.
18 Q. I see. So we had to wait for her to get
19 married for you to be able to recount these things.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. When did she get married?
22 A. I don't know exactly, but she has a child.
23 She has -- perhaps two years. Two years ago.
24 Q. You mean she was married two years ago?
25 A. Yes.
Page 2387
1 Q. And you said nothing to anybody for two
2 years?
3 A. What do you mean, I didn't? In these last
4 two years, after these two years, yes, I did say.
5 Q. Very well.
6 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
7 I am drawing to the end of my questions, but may I just
8 have a minute to consult with my colleagues, please?
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please.
10 [Defence counsel confer]
11 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise,
12 but I shall need just a moment to find the portion of
13 the witness's statement, because my colleagues have
14 indicated it to me.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please. Go ahead.
16 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
17 Honour, I've found it, but I think that I would run the
18 risk of repetition, and my question would be why she
19 said in her testimony that nobody, et cetera,
20 et cetera, et cetera, and I don't wish to repeat
21 myself.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Do as you please,
23 Mr. Jovanovic. You know the case better.
24 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. I just want to ask you one further thing.
Page 2388
1 The other people here on the list that you have before
2 you, we know that number 51 was a slightly older
3 person, of course conditionally speaking. But out of
4 these others on the list, could you tell us who was the
5 same age as Witness 50?
6 A. Well, I don't know the exact date, but I
7 think -- their ages exactly, but I think she was about
8 16 years. She was first-form secondary school. She
9 was a minor.
10 Q. Who?
11 A. Number 50.
12 Q. Are you listening to me? Do you hear what
13 I'm asking you?
14 A. Do you mean 50 or 51?
15 Q. No, I'm not referring to 50 or 51, but all
16 the others, all the rest, except those two numbers.
17 A. You mean how old they were, roughly?
18 Q. Yes. My question is --
19 A. Could you repeat your question, please? I
20 didn't hear you properly.
21 Q. My question was the following: Of all the
22 individuals on the list, how many of them were of a
23 similar age to Witness 50?
24 A. 50, you say. I think two of them.
25 Q. Which two?
Page 2389
1 A. DB and 87.
2 Q. Were they married at that time?
3 A. No, they weren't.
4 Q. But you didn't protect them.
5 A. Because they were no relation to my husband.
6 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
7 Your Honours. I have no further questions.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Mr. Jovanovic.
9 Any re-examination by the Prosecution?
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. I
11 have a few questions.
12 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:
13 Q. Witness, yesterday and today you have
14 discussed your previous two statements you gave to the
15 Prosecutor's office, and in addition you also discussed
16 with the Defence counsel an interview that you gave in
17 what you think was Novi Pazar.
18 When you arrived in The Hague and when you
19 discussed the upcoming statement with the Prosecutor,
20 were you given these three statements for reading? Did
21 you read all this before?
22 A. These statements?
23 Q. Yes. Did you read these statements, all
24 these documents that you discussed?
25 A. No, I didn't. No, I didn't. They were not
Page 2390
1 given to me; nor did I read them.
2 Q. Yesterday, when you discussed your statement
3 from 1996, you said that you discussed all these rapes
4 in general terms with the investigators and you were
5 not focusing so much on specific perpetrators at that
6 time; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, correct. I did not go into details with
8 any of your investigators or the journalists. I have
9 to repeat, ten days wouldn't be long enough to tell the
10 whole statement.
11 Q. However, would you please look at the
12 statement you gave in 1996? Is it still with you? And
13 would you please look at page 7, paragraph 4 in the
14 B/C/S, and it's 6 in the English version. Page 7,
15 paragraph 3 and 4, actually, in your language.
16 In paragraph 3, you speak about the pattern
17 of rape that occurred in Partizan Sports Hall, and in
18 paragraph 4 -- and in English it's 6 -- you speak about
19 Dragan Kunarac, Zaga, who was part of this pattern and
20 who came to Partizan; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. On page 8, that is, the following page -- no,
23 in the B/C/S version, it's page 7, the last paragraph,
24 and in the English version, it's page 8, paragraph 4.
25 However, you describe that you were taken to the
Page 2391
1 tailor's house in Aladza and you were raped there,
2 isn't it?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In your statement from 1998, that is, the
5 other statement you gave to the Tribunal, would you
6 please look at page 3, and it is in your language and
7 also in the English language it's the paragraph 3 and
8 4. In these paragraphs, did you describe the rapes
9 that occurred in the tailor's house in more details?
10 A. Yes, because Kunarac had already been
11 arrested or he had arrived here. At the time, I was
12 asked to speak in greater detail about him, though I
13 didn't know enough. I had forgotten a lot.
14 Q. And will you now please have a look at the
15 last document you discussed with Defence counsel, Mrs.
16 Pilipovic; that is, the transcript of the interview you
17 gave to journalists. Would you please just have a look
18 at the English text and the B/C/S text, but the English
19 text is of more importance.
20 Do you see your signature anywhere on this
21 document? It's the Defence Exhibit 42. Do you see
22 your signature or were you ever shown this document by
23 the journalist?
24 A. As far as the signature is concerned, I don't
25 see it, though I'm a little nervous now. But what I
Page 2392
1 said, I abide by it. But journalists, like
2 journalists, tend to exaggerate a little, and I assume
3 this is exaggerated too.
4 Q. When you were interviewed by journalists, did
5 they ever afterwards show you a text or did they simply
6 make notes or tapes and you could not check it again,
7 so that you would not know what the journalist actually
8 has -- what notes he made for himself, or she?
9 A. I don't remember them giving me the statement
10 afterwards, but I wasn't interested. I know what
11 happened and I always told the truth. Whether they
12 added anything, I don't care.
13 Q. So you would not know what notes journalists
14 did, and if there is something which is not correct,
15 you would not know?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I again have to refer back to your first
18 statement you gave to the Tribunal in 1996, when you
19 described the rapes in more general terms. Did you
20 mention that you were raped by a lot of soldiers, some
21 of them known to you, others unknown to you?
22 A. As far as that is concerned, I hadn't known
23 them before the war, before I was taken into
24 detention. The only thing is that some of the people
25 who were there with me knew them and mentioned their
Page 2393
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Page 2394
1 names. But I do not remember those names now.
2 Q. But when you saw the accused Zoran Vukovic in
3 this courtroom, did you merely recognise him here as
4 one of them who raped you?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When you gave testimony yesterday, and
7 especially when Mrs. Pilipovic asked you about the
8 first rape in the high school, you referred to your jaw
9 and you mentioned a clicking sound that results, in a
10 way, from these rapes. What did you mean? Do you have
11 any problems with your jaw, or what were you referring
12 to?
13 A. When Tuta slapped me, it hurt me very much.
14 And since then, I have had these problems all the time.
15 Q. You mean that your jaw clicks when you speak,
16 or what problem?
17 A. Yes, yes, and it hurts me.
18 Q. When you gave your testimony yesterday, and
19 especially in the afternoon, I noticed that you had the
20 impression on your face that you were in pain. Is that
21 the wrong impression I got or were you in pain, and if
22 so, why?
23 A. It's painful to talk about.
24 Q. So it was not something physical?
25 A. Do you mean my jaw or generally, this trial?
Page 2395
1 Q. I meant if you have any physical pain at that
2 moment, from whatever source, or was it just the mental
3 stress that gave the impression you were in pain?
4 A. Both.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No further questions,
6 Your Honours.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Yes.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
9 I do apologise. I have no questions, but I would just
10 like to clear up a point.
11 My learned friend was saying that she was
12 having an interview with the journalist, but this
13 document is a transcript of her statement before the
14 cameras.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Which do you mean?
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] So it wasn't
17 a journalist taking notes. This is the Document D42,
18 Defence Exhibit D42, and the witness agreed with me
19 that it was a statement made for the cameras.
20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, I do not
21 think that this is, but I would have to check. My
22 opinion was and my knowledge is that this is the notes
23 a reporter made. There was a tape that was made, but
24 at the same time he made notes. And it's not a
25 transcript because -- it's not a transcript of a
Page 2396
1 running interview, because it sounds to me that it's
2 always like in the third person. So therefore it's
3 notes to an interview on a tape. So that is what I
4 meant. It's not actually the word-by-word statement of
5 the witness, it's notes.
6 JUDGE HUNT: It could be somebody's notes,
7 having seen the transcript; I don't know. But it's
8 certainly all in the third person. It does not purport
9 to be a transcript of the actual words used.
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This is also what my
11 knowledge is.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Witness,
13 for giving evidence. You are free now to go.
14 Yes, Madam Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The Registry
16 would like to know what to do with D42 as an exhibit,
17 because it is marked for identification only for the
18 time being. Is it going to be admitted? On the other
19 hand, the document shown by Mr. Jovanovic, shown the
20 witness, about that one I would like to know whether
21 Mr. Jovanovic wants to tender that into evidence.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. On D42, do you wish it
23 tendered into evidence? You see, what you must
24 understand that the process is, at the moment a
25 document is shown to the witness, it has to be marked
Page 2397
1 for identification only. Now, if you want it to be
2 part of the evidence, then you ask for it to be
3 admitted into evidence. So there are two stages with
4 documents.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
6 Honour, thank you. You have already told us that
7 once. The Defence would like to tender this interview,
8 if I can call it that, or transcript of a conversation
9 with the witness as a Defence exhibit.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution, any
11 objection?
12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No objections, Your
13 Honours.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number
15 formally, Madam Registrar?
16 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document
17 will be marked D42 as a Defence exhibit and will be
18 tendered under seal.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic.
20 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
21 I don't wish, nor is there any need, for that document
22 to be tendered into evidence. It was only meant for
23 identification purposes.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We have five minutes to
25 go. Yes, Madam Prosecutor.
Page 2398
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the next
2 witness, we need to arrange some technical problems due
3 to the voice and image alteration. Therefore, my
4 suggestion would be to have the break now.
5 And in addition, so that we do not have to
6 deal with that when we start with the next witness, the
7 witness was granted to testify while being shielded
8 from the accused. The Prosecution had discussed this
9 matter with the witness, and she does not need this
10 protection any longer. So it would be the normal
11 protection, voice and image alteration, and nothing
12 else.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: I hope the Defence have
14 understood that. The protective measures for this
15 witness are varied. It's only voice and face
16 distortion. She will be in view of the accused
17 persons.
18 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No
19 objection, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar.
21 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] We are fully in
22 agreement, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic.
24 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] We agree,
25 Your Honour.
Page 2399
1 JUDGE MUMBA: The motion is granted and the
2 protective measures are varied accordingly.
3 We now take our break. We'll resume at 1130
4 hours. We are giving extra minutes for the protective
5 measures to be varied.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 --- Recess taken at 10.55 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness. Please
11 make the solemn declaration.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly
13 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
14 and nothing but the truth.
15 WITNESS: WITNESS 132
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution, please.
18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Before I start, with the
19 help of the usher, would you please give this to the
20 witness, and would this please be marked as the
21 Prosecution Exhibit 201. It should be in front of
22 everybody. It's a list with the names.
23 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] It is
24 Prosecution Exhibit 201, and it is being admitted under
25 seal.
Page 2400
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
2 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:
3 Q. Good morning, Witness.
4 A. Good morning.
5 Q. We have to avoid to say names, and therefore
6 you have now this list in front of you. The name next
7 to the number 132, is that your name?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And the date next to the number, is that your
10 birthday?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Where were you born?
13 A. I was born in Foca.
14 Q. In a particular neighbourhood in Foca?
15 A. No. In the Foca hospital.
16 Q. And what is your ethnicity?
17 A. I'm a Muslim.
18 Q. Where did you live in Foca before the war?
19 A. I lived at Rataja, which is a village in the
20 surroundings of Foca.
21 Q. What is the next neighbourhood, the bigger
22 neighbourhood to Rataja?
23 A. Miljevina. That's a local community which
24 belonged to the Foca municipality.
25 Q. Miljevina, before the war, was that a mixed
Page 2401
1 neighbourhood, that is, Serbs and Muslims living there?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you say how many Serbs, the percentage of
4 Serbs and Muslims? Were any of them dominant? Was it
5 dominantly?
6 A. Well, in my free assessment, I think it was a
7 50/50 ratio, approximately.
8 Q. And your village, Rataja, what about this?
9 Was that also a mixed neighbourhood, and was there any
10 ethnicity that was a majority?
11 A. It was a mixed region, but I think it was
12 predominantly Serb.
13 Q. What did you do before the war?
14 A. Before the war, I went to the first form of
15 secondary school. I was a pupil.
16 Q. How old were you when the war started?
17 A. Fifteen.
18 Q. When did the war start?
19 A. I think the war in the Foca municipality
20 began at the beginning of April, about the 8th of
21 April, I think.
22 Q. And did you hear anything about the war? I
23 mean, did you hear shooting or shelling? Or did the
24 war even start in your area?
25 A. I think that there weren't any major armed
Page 2402
1 conflicts at that time in Miljevina and Rataja, but
2 from the neighbouring hills around Miljevina, you could
3 hear gunfire, and I think that the village of Putanj
4 where there was an open-cast mine at one time -- this
5 is my assessment and what I have come to realise was
6 that there must have been guns up there and that shells
7 were shot from there and the target was Foca.
8 Q. Were the Muslim villagers in your village,
9 that is, Miljevina and Rataja, were they armed at that
10 time and did they have units?
11 A. No. In that village -- the village was
12 inhabited by mostly elderly people and a few children,
13 and I don't think they were armed. That is to say,
14 they were not armed.
15 Q. And what about the Serb neighbours? Were
16 they armed and did they wear uniforms?
17 A. Yes. From that first day, when the blockade
18 was set up -- I don't know the definition, actually, of
19 that, but it would appear that the war began from that
20 day in April, so from April they were armed and
21 uniformed, mostly.
22 Q. You speak about the blockade. Where was this
23 blockade and who has erected it?
24 A. The Serbian population of Miljevina, because
25 suddenly -- I didn't see that. It was those who
Page 2403
1 tried -- because the Muslim population didn't know what
2 was going on, so many went out to get bread, because
3 there were many of the locals who sold milk and milk
4 produces, and they would supply people with these
5 produces of theirs. And they saw what was called these
6 hedgehogs on the road. They were called hedgehogs.
7 And, for example, my brother saw them on his way to
8 school.
9 Q. And where were -- do you know where this
10 blockade was?
11 A. I can't remember. I think it was by the
12 petrol pump at Miljevina, somewhere there.
13 Q. And did you continue to go to school to Foca?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Why not?
16 A. Well, because before that you used public
17 transport and the bus going to Foca, but I don't think
18 the bus ran anymore towards Foca, it didn't go towards
19 Foca.
20 Q. In April and the following months, you and
21 your family, were you bothered in any way by soldiers?
22 A. Yes. I don't know exactly whether that was
23 at the very beginning of April, but in the months to
24 come in 1992, we were bothered. That is to say, the
25 Serbian soldiers and the units who were in the region
Page 2404
1 would try to check -- that is to say, they wanted to
2 see if we were armed.
3 Q. And did soldiers come to your house?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What did these soldiers look like? What kind
6 of uniforms did they have?
7 A. I think there was a minority who wore the
8 uniform of the former Yugoslav People's Army, but there
9 were other soldiers who wore camouflage uniforms.
10 Q. Did you see any special insignia?
11 A. Yes. I think that most of those people who
12 came at the time had -- I don't know whether on their
13 left or right arm, but they had a tricolour insignia
14 like a sort of national Serbian insignia, and I think
15 they had in that emblem that it said "Gingilo Guard".
16 Q. Did that mean anything to you or did you
17 later learn what "Gingilo Guard" was?
18 A. Yes. The people who came at that time, of
19 course after everything I have seen, they were actually
20 people who were subordinate to Pero Elez, and I think
21 that Pero Elez had this nickname, Gingilo, that his
22 nickname was Vojvoda Gingilo.
23 Q. Did you know Pero Elez before the war?
24 A. No.
25 Q. When did you learn his name, and when did you
Page 2405
1 meet him first?
2 A. I learned his name in August, I believe. And
3 when he came -- that is to say, when they took my
4 father and neighbours prisoner, they took me off too
5 that day, and I think that it was on that day that I
6 learned his name. I think he even introduced himself
7 as being who he was.
8 Q. How big was the group of soldiers who
9 belonged to this Pero Elez?
10 A. Well, once again this is my free assessment,
11 but I think there were about 20 or 30 people in all.
12 Q. Were they armed?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You have already mentioned August, but the
15 time between April and August, did you ever leave the
16 house, or Miljevina, or Rataja?
17 A. Yes. I had two younger brothers, and the
18 three of us, with some of our relatives, went to a
19 village which was located between Miljevina and
20 Sarajevo, and we were there for three or four days.
21 And as my parents stayed, we returned because of them,
22 because we didn't want to go any further without them.
23 Q. And when you returned to your parents' house,
24 did you stay in the house?
25 A. Yes.
Page 2406
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Page 2407
1 Q. What about your father; did he move around in
2 the village?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Why not?
5 A. Because these were the recommendations made
6 by some Serb neighbours. We were told by them that it
7 was better that way. They said that people from other
8 parts, Montenegrins, from Serbia, and people came into
9 those parts, so to avoid any incidents, it would be
10 safer for him to stay at home.
11 Q. And what about you yourself?
12 A. For me too, that was true for me too.
13 Q. Why was it dangerous for you to go out, while
14 let's say your mother, could she go out?
15 A. Yes, because we had some cattle, some
16 livestock, so they didn't prevent my mother from going
17 to tend to the livestock. But I didn't dare -- I
18 wasn't allowed to go. Why not? I'll never actually
19 understand that.
20 Q. On that first occasion that you think you met
21 Pero Elez, do you know when that was exactly?
22 A. I can't give you an exact date, but quite
23 certainly it is one of these two. It is either the
24 18th or 19th of August, 1992.
25 Q. And why do you remember this date so well?
Page 2408
1 A. Well, because it was, I think, the first of a
2 series of terrible dates for my life.
3 Q. What happened on that day?
4 A. Well, on that day these people, the soldiers
5 I mentioned earlier on, came. They searched our house,
6 took my father away and took me away.
7 Q. Do you recall how many soldiers came to your
8 house, and did you recognise any of them?
9 A. They were very difficult moments for me, and
10 I was terribly afraid for -- in order to be able to
11 recognise anybody. But I think that five or six
12 soldiers entered the house. But otherwise in the
13 village, I think there were about 30 of them.
14 Q. Did anything happen in the house on that day?
15 A. In the house. Well, as I said, nothing,
16 except that they took my father and me away.
17 Q. Did they beat your father?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When did this happen, and were you present?
20 A. They came on that occasion, and me and my
21 mother and two brothers were in the basement of the
22 house. But they took my father up on the floor above,
23 and from that floor we could hear him moaning and
24 screaming. And afterwards, when we were together
25 again, he told us that they had tied him up and beaten
Page 2409
1 him with an electric cable, extension cable as we call
2 it.
3 Q. Why did the soldiers come to your house and
4 why did they mistreat your father this way? Did they
5 say anything?
6 A. Well, once again, I can't remember because it
7 was a long time ago and it is difficult for me to
8 remember all the details. But I do know -- that is to
9 say, I don't know whether they said that, but I think
10 it was them who said this, that a truck which was going
11 to a hill somewhere should have brought some -- was to
12 bring some hay with some Serbian -- whether civilians
13 or soldiers, I don't know, but I think that one of them
14 among them did go to the front. And on that occasion,
15 they were injured because the truck went off the road.
16 And they said that the truck had gone off the road
17 because there was an explosive device or a mine, and
18 they accused my father and our other Muslim neighbours
19 of having done that.
20 Q. You said that your father was taken away.
21 Where was he taken; do you know that?
22 A. Well, after everything, I do know now that he
23 was taken to Miljevina, to the police station there.
24 Q. Did he stay there for some time?
25 A. Yes. He stayed there for 15 days.
Page 2410
1 Q. And what became of him afterwards? Where was
2 he taken then?
3 A. After that, they took him away to the
4 correction centre in Foca.
5 Q. How long did he stay there?
6 A. He stayed there -- if that was August, that
7 would make it -- he stayed there from the beginning of
8 September to the 19th of January. It was January, at
9 any rate, January 1993.
10 Q. When did you see him again?
11 A. I saw him again -- it was April, but I've
12 mixed up all the years. It was in 1995. Yes, 1995.
13 Q. What happened to you on that day in August?
14 A. On that day they took me off to a house and I
15 stayed there for a time.
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the
17 usher, I would like to show the witness two photos.
18 The first photo is Exhibit 11, photo number 7355.
19 Q. Would you please look on this photo and tell
20 us what you see.
21 A. I see a building, or house, which is very
22 well known to me. The photograph has taken from the
23 road. That is the entrance gate and the entrance to
24 the house, which was the property of Nusret Karaman.
25 And I think it has now come to be known as Karaman's
Page 2411
1 House.
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Would the usher now show
3 the photo Exhibit 11, photo 7358.
4 Q. What do you see on this photo?
5 A. I see the same house, but the photograph has
6 been taken from the other side, from a different
7 aspect, angle.
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, thank you. It can
9 be taken away, the photo.
10 Q. Did you know this house from before the war?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And did you know the Karaman family?
13 A. Not the elderly members, but I did know the
14 two younger daughters, yes.
15 Q. How were you taken to this house, and why?
16 A. Of course, I could not seek for an
17 explanation, nor did I do so, and I don't know, but
18 they took me -- I was taken by Pero Elez -- no.
19 Predrag Trifkovic, Pedo, Zoran Samardzic and Nedjo
20 Samardzic; they took me.
21 Q. Did you know these people from before the
22 war?
23 A. No.
24 Q. How, then, did you learn their names?
25 A. Well, quite simply, they would not refer to
Page 2412
1 each other in any way by nickname or code or anything,
2 but as I was there for some time, I think some of them
3 even introduced themselves and gave their full name and
4 surname.
5 Q. When you first were taken to this house, how
6 long did you stay in there?
7 A. Several hours.
8 Q. During this several hours, were you
9 mistreated in any way?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Where were you taken then?
12 A. After that they took me to the police station
13 at Miljevina.
14 Q. When you say "they," do you mean these three
15 soldiers you just mentioned?
16 A. No. I think there was -- Pero Elez was
17 there, quite certainly, but who was with him -- let me
18 repeat: Eight years is a very long period for a
19 witness to be able to remember all the details, and
20 especially as in my particular case there were a lot of
21 people who were mentioned. A lot of people crop up, so
22 my memory -- but I'm quite sure that Pero Elez was one
23 of them, but I'm not certain of the others, so I don't
24 want to say anything that I'm not certain of.
25 Q. When you were at the police station, what
Page 2413
1 happened there?
2 A. At the police station, the sort of
3 investigator there was my teacher, Risto Trifkovic, and
4 he questioned me. He asked me about a black box, some
5 kind of black box that I'd never heard of. And I have
6 never discovered to this day what that was.
7 Q. Did you know anything about a black box,
8 whatever that is?
9 A. No.
10 Q. How long did the questioning last?
11 A. Not very long. An hour, perhaps.
12 Q. Were you abused in any way during this
13 questioning?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Were you taken home afterwards?
16 A. No. That is to say, not at first, not right
17 away. I was returned to Karaman's House.
18 Q. Why were you returned to Karaman's House and
19 not taken home?
20 A. Because they told me that I know what that
21 black box is and that I didn't want to own up to that.
22 Q. To be taken to Karaman's House, then, was
23 that kind of a punishment or was it a threat to you?
24 A. I understood that to be a threat.
25 Q. Why? Did you know anything about this house
Page 2414
1 at that time already?
2 A. No, but quite simply, to take me away from my
3 family, that was punishment enough for me.
4 Q. How long did you stay at Karaman's House when
5 you were returned there on that day?
6 A. I stayed the next day, to the afternoon of
7 the following day.
8 Q. Who was present in the house at that time?
9 A. In the house there were seven girls. Do you
10 want me to give you their names?
11 Q. Not the names, but would you please have a
12 look at the list and give us either their initials or
13 the number.
14 A. Yes. Very well. That's what I meant,
15 actually. So DB was there, FWS-87, FWS-75, AS, AB, JB,
16 80, and JB [sic]. No. No. I misspoke. 80 was not in
17 the house. So seven girls. Let me repeat: DB,
18 FWS-87, 75, AS, AB, JG, and JB.
19 Q. Yes. Thank you. And these girls, did they
20 speak to you?
21 A. A couple of words only. They told me their
22 names, but not more than that at that first encounter.
23 Q. And did they tell you where they come from
24 and how they got to the house?
25 A. Most of them did.
Page 2415
1 Q. And where did they come from? Do you recall
2 that?
3 A. Probably I will not remember for all of
4 them. I know that JG was born and lived in Gacko, that
5 they were captured as they were fleeing, that they were
6 in Kalinovik and that they had brought her from
7 Kalinovik. Also, I know that DB, FWS-87, and FWS-75
8 were born -- actually, I don't know where they were
9 born, but they lived in a village called Mjesaja and
10 they were also captured somewhere in the woods. And I
11 think that they were kept in the Partizan Sports Hall
12 and then from there they went to various other places.
13 Q. Did you know any of these girls from before
14 the war?
15 A. Yes. I knew AS and AB, because they also
16 lived in Miljevina.
17 Q. Were there soldiers at the house at that day
18 or night?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. One, or two, or more soldiers; how many?
21 A. Several soldiers. They would come and go
22 quite frequently. How many there were, I really don't
23 know, because they kept changing. One group would
24 come, another would go, so I wouldn't take the liberty
25 to make an estimate.
Page 2416
1 Q. Did you know any of them or did you learn
2 their names later on that were there on that same day?
3 I don't mean that entire time, but just that same day
4 in August.
5 A. Yes. I personally knew one soldier who also
6 lived in Miljevina. His name is Radovan Stankovic.
7 And also that day I think I learned quite a number of
8 names. There was, for instance, Nedjo Samardzic, Zoran
9 Samardzic.
10 Q. On that day, what did the soldiers do?
11 A. They had come back from a successful
12 operation where they had captured old people and
13 children. I'm talking about Rataja again.
14 Q. Did they themselves speak about that?
15 A. No.
16 Q. How, then, do you know?
17 A. Because satisfaction could be seen, because
18 it was a kind of celebration, and they had just come
19 from that village.
20 Q. What did the girls do at that day?
21 A. They were engaged in normal housework,
22 satisfying their requests. If they wanted to drink,
23 they would bring them drinks. If they wanted to have a
24 cup of coffee, they would prepare the coffee and serve
25 it to the soldiers.
Page 2417
1 Q. Were you abused on that night?
2 A. No.
3 Q. On that occasion, the other girls or women,
4 did they mention that they were abused, or did that
5 actually happen on that night that you saw it?
6 A. I didn't see it, but they did tell me, and
7 they told me that by the time I had got there, they had
8 already experienced very many horrors, mistreatment,
9 humiliations and so on.
10 Q. Do you recall who told you that, who of the
11 girls?
12 A. No, but I think that all of them shared the
13 same opinion and they all said. Of course, these are
14 not stories that are identical in terms of detail, but
15 they all had something in common.
16 Q. What impression did these girls and women
17 make on you on that day as to in what state they were?
18 A. I think that all of them, like me, were
19 terrified. And the worst part was that they were all
20 separated from their families, and most of them didn't
21 know where their parents were and the other members of
22 their immediate family.
23 Q. You said that you stayed there only one
24 night. Where were you taken the next day?
25 A. The next day, Nedjo Samardzic took me back to
Page 2418
1 my home and my mother.
2 Q. When you came home, had anything happened to
3 your family or your family's house?
4 A. The family, no, but they didn't spend that
5 night in the house. They were too afraid. But the
6 house was burgled. They had taken away some technical
7 appliances.
8 Q. How long did you stay in your house?
9 A. In my house, I stayed -- that was either the
10 19th or the 20th of August when I was brought back, and
11 I stayed until the beginning of September. But I do
12 not remember the exact date.
13 Q. Why did you leave the house?
14 A. I didn't leave the house. I was taken out of
15 the house.
16 Q. Who took you out of the house?
17 A. Predrag Trifkovic, Pedo, and Zoran
18 Samardzic. And I have to mention that I am not quite
19 sure whether both Samardzic brothers were there or only
20 one of them, but I am sure that Pedo Trifkovic was one
21 of them.
22 Q. And do you recall when that was, the date?
23 A. No, not the date.
24 Q. Was it in -- what month was it in, and at the
25 beginning or the end of the month?
Page 2419
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Page 2420
1 A. It was at the beginning of the month, and the
2 month was September.
3 Q. '92?
4 A. Yes, of course.
5 Q. Did anything happen before you were taken
6 away that caused unrest?
7 A. Yes. From that village or, rather, from
8 Rataja, 13 men, young men, had been killed of Serb
9 ethnicity. I think I will be right in saying Serb
10 soldiers.
11 Q. And how do you know that?
12 A. Because I saw the sorrow. These were
13 neighbours, houses that were very close to ours, and
14 one could hear the crying. We saw the funeral of those
15 soldiers when they were being buried.
16 Q. And when these soldiers who took you out came
17 to your house, what did they say?
18 A. They said that those neighbours, Serbs, were
19 of course naturally deeply hurt, that they were very
20 indignant, and that they feared that they could provoke
21 an incident, and that it would be safer for me to go
22 with them and they would put me up somewhere. Of
23 course, I didn't know where.
24 Q. Why did they then not take the entire family
25 away; why only you? Did they explain that?
Page 2421
1 A. No.
2 Q. Where were you taken?
3 A. They took me again to Karaman's House.
4 Q. How long did you stay this time?
5 A. I stayed there, let me see, from the
6 beginning of September until the 21st of March, 1993.
7 Q. What happened to your family when you were
8 taken away; what happened to your mother and your
9 family?
10 A. Of course, this was information that reached
11 me much later when I was at liberty, when I finally
12 rejoined my mother. They stayed on sometime until the
13 month of October in their own house. Actually, when
14 they took me, I wasn't in my house. We were staying in
15 a relative's house, where they had moved us to to put
16 up a Serb family in our house. And from this
17 relative's house, they deported them to the Partizan
18 Sports Hall, my mother, my two brothers, and my
19 father's mother, that is, my grandmother.
20 Q. When you came to Karaman's House this time,
21 who was staying there? Would you please name the
22 soldiers first?
23 A. The names of the soldiers? Again, there were
24 people passing through, members of the Guards, and the
25 soldiers who would stay on and spend the night there
Page 2422
1 were Nikola Brcic and Radovan Stankovic.
2 Q. You mentioned the Guards. Is that the Pero
3 Elez group that you referred to before?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. And how many girls were in the house at that
6 time, and will you please look at the sheet, who?
7 A. Yes. Again, the same girls were there that I
8 had seen the first time, which means DB, FWS 87,
9 FWS 75, AS, AB, JG and JB.
10 Q. Who was the youngest, and how old was she?
11 A. The youngest was AB, and she said that she
12 was 12, that she was 12 then.
13 Q. What about the others; do you happen to know
14 their ages?
15 A. I don't know now with precision, but they
16 were all very young and they were all unmarried. And I
17 think the oldest was about 26 or 27.
18 Q. And were they all Muslims?
19 A. Yes, only I think that JB was from a mixed
20 marriage. Her mother was either a Serb or a Croat; I'm
21 not sure. But her father was a Muslim.
22 Q. What happened to you while you were in
23 Karaman's House?
24 A. Rape happened, humiliation, mistreatment.
25 Q. When you say "rape", what exactly do you
Page 2423
1 mean?
2 A. In the Yugoslav language in those days, which
3 is now Bosnian, there is a word, "silo", which means
4 power, strength. To me, that very word, "silovanje",
5 because I was a child of 15. So they used force,
6 power, strength to bring me there, and that means
7 everything. Everything I went through, as well as the
8 other girls, occurred not through my will or my
9 acquiescence but by the use of force, power and
10 strength.
11 Q. But for what did they use the power and
12 strength and force, for what?
13 A. To bring us there and to do everything they
14 did.
15 Q. Does that mean to put their penises into your
16 mouth, or vagina, or anus?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How often did that happen? Was it a daily
19 occurrence?
20 A. For me, no. Of course, all of us who were
21 there didn't -- were not given the same treatment. The
22 intensity of the forcible behaviour towards us varied.
23 Q. How often were you raped?
24 A. These are things that I have always wanted to
25 forget. So not so frequently, but I can't tell you
Page 2424
1 with precision.
2 Q. Who raped you; do you remember anyone
3 specifically?
4 A. Yes. The first to do it was Pero Elez, Nedjo
5 Samardzic, also a man who came and said he was Captain
6 Dragan, that he was a Montenegrin, Zoran Samardzic.
7 Now I simply -- I could not name any others.
8 Q. How did this make you feel while you were in
9 Karaman's House?
10 A. Awful, dreadful, helpless. But at the same
11 time I felt dignified and proud.
12 Q. Of what?
13 A. I didn't understand the question.
14 Q. You said at the same time you felt dignified
15 and proud, and what do you mean? What made you feel
16 this way?
17 A. Yes. We girls, children, were hopeless.
18 They were men under arms and they used force. But
19 simply I did not want to be subdued. They would often
20 describe us as slaves, but I wouldn't accept that,
21 though I couldn't say it often. But intimately I would
22 refuse to accept it, though it was the truth.
23 Q. You said that the other girls, that the
24 amount of rapes they suffered varied. Who was raped
25 the most?
Page 2425
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. Were all of them raped, and did they all
3 experience the same that you did?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you ever experience a gang-rape while you
6 were in the house?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you describe this?
9 A. One night, since the above-mentioned Radovan
10 Stankovic and Nikola Brcic, who were in that house,
11 they had the right to open the door and let in all
12 those who wanted to enjoy themselves with the Bosniak
13 girls. And then someone I didn't know, they said, as
14 we often slept in the same room -- they brought them,
15 three or four men, so we were exposed to this
16 gang-rape.
17 Q. While you were at the house, were you beaten?
18 A. There weren't any -- there wasn't any major
19 physical abuse except for slapping and things like
20 that, but nothing more substantial.
21 Q. Were you threatened?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What was used as a threat?
24 A. A big knife, which they called the kama, and
25 firearms: a pistol, a rifle.
Page 2426
1 Q. Were the other girls also slapped and
2 threatened occasionally?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. When this happened, was there any reason?
5 Did you provoke this to happen, or why did the soldiers
6 do that?
7 A. No. I think that this usually happened
8 because these people were -- let me use the term not
9 alcoholics, but people who liked to drink, who liked to
10 have a drink, and through the effects of that, we were
11 most frequently abused and beaten.
12 Q. Those soldiers who came to the house, were
13 they -- did they all belong to Pero Elez's group of
14 soldiers or were there also others?
15 A. No, they didn't all belong to him. There
16 were others as well.
17 Q. Where did the others come from?
18 A. As I mentioned a moment ago, that man who
19 introduced himself as Captain Dragan, he said he was a
20 Montenegrin, and people would come also who were from
21 Foca.
22 Q. Do you happen to know any names or any
23 nicknames of soldiers who came from Foca?
24 A. Once again, I have to say that I did not know
25 any of people who came from Foca, but the girls who
Page 2427
1 were already in that house, they had already gone
2 through that terrible Partizan Sports Hall, infamous
3 sports hall, and from their stories I learnt that when
4 they had gone, they said that that night a man came --
5 I think his name was Dragan Zelenovic, Zelja -- and
6 that another man who used to come by was Gojko
7 Jankovic. And I know that on several occasions, in
8 passing, a man called Dragoljub Kunarac, Zaga. I also
9 know a man who -- I don't think I'll be able to
10 remember his name -- Gagovic, Gaga. These were all
11 people who probably had the same attitude towards
12 Bosnian women and girls and Bosnian children.
13 Q. You mentioned Zaga. Can you describe this
14 Zaga?
15 A. Another thing which I have to repeat, keep
16 repeating, is, first of all, that it was a very long
17 time ago -- eight years is the period -- and I was a
18 child at the time. Now I am a serious woman. And
19 those people were, let me say, middle-aged. Of course,
20 people change in the course of eight years. But there
21 is a high degree of fear and trepidation that was
22 present. But the man whom I saw then and who I think
23 was Zaga was tall, well built. He had a bony face,
24 with high cheekbones, prominent cheekbones. The colour
25 of his hair and eyes, I just cannot remember.
Page 2428
1 Q. How did you learn his nickname or his name?
2 Did he introduce himself or did you hear others?
3 A. He did not introduce himself, and I think
4 I've already said this. I heard it from the girls who
5 had already experienced that infamous Partizan Sports
6 Hall.
7 Q. How often did you see him in Karaman's House?
8 A. During my stay there, a couple of times, I
9 think.
10 Q. And what did he do in the house?
11 A. In a house in which there was a Bosnian
12 family for a long time, Alija Hrbinic, and there they
13 had a place where they kept livestock and brought in
14 cattle. And I think that several times he came
15 there -- from Karaman's House, he would go down there
16 to that cattle shed and would take some cattle for
17 their needs. And also -- I think this was the last
18 time that I saw that particular man -- that this was
19 when a group of girls were taken away from the house.
20 Q. Did you see this Zaga discuss with Pero Elez
21 or did you see them together?
22 A. Yes. And on that particular day, there were
23 a lot of those people we knew and many people we didn't
24 know, who talked to Pero Elez. Amongst them was -- and
25 this is my assumption once again -- was that man Zaga.
Page 2429
1 Q. Did Pero Elez ever mention Zaga to you and
2 what kind of a soldier he was?
3 A. No, not up until that day when they took the
4 girls away somewhere; I didn't know where.
5 Q. What did Pero Elez tell you about Zaga?
6 A. As I was sitting on the terrace, I was not
7 only afraid; I was beside myself, at the very edge.
8 And he said that I should be grateful to him for not
9 having allowed me to be taken off with Zaga. And he
10 said that I did not know what pain and suffering was
11 until I had experienced what those men in Foca did to
12 those girls, so that I had in some way remained
13 protected. That's what he wanted to say.
14 Q. Did you ever see a female soldier in the
15 house?
16 A. I don't know whether she was a soldier, but I
17 think she personally, or the people who came with her,
18 introduced her as a journalist, and her name was
19 Gordana Draskovic.
20 Q. When did she come to the house and what did
21 she do there?
22 A. I don't know when she came or what she
23 wanted.
24 Q. Was she present when you or any of the other
25 girls were abused?
Page 2430
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you see Zaga abuse any girl in the house?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Would you please have a look around in this
5 courtroom and can you tell us if the person you were
6 talking about is in this courtroom?
7 A. I think the first man.
8 Q. When you count starting on the left-hand
9 door, which person is it?
10 A. Yes. The first.
11 Q. The first without uniform, you mean?
12 A. Yes. Yes.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: For the record, the
14 witness has indicated the accused, Dragoljub Kunarac.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
17 Q. Speaking about Karaman's House, were you
18 locked in this house?
19 A. Yes, we were locked, but what I would like to
20 stress was that we had the key, and we would close the
21 door from the inside.
22 Q. Did you stay in the house voluntarily?
23 A. I think it was enough when I said what I
24 imply by the word "sila," which means that we were not
25 there of our own free will.
Page 2431
1 Q. But you said you had a key. Why didn't you
2 then flee and run away from the house? Did you have a
3 choice?
4 A. I think -- I don't think we had a choice, no,
5 because, quite simply, it was absurd to go anywhere,
6 because what I wish to emphasise again was that we were
7 all very young and everywhere we would move around we
8 were taken by car, vehicles, either public transport or
9 other vehicles, so that it was absolutely absurd to go
10 anywhere. And everything was a long distance away and
11 the Muslim positions were far off. So we had no
12 choice. We couldn't go anywhere or reach any point,
13 because all around us was the Serbian population and
14 Serb soldiers.
15 Q. You said that you were taken away on the 21st
16 of March. What about the other girls? Did they all
17 stay as long as you did?
18 A. No. A group -- we have already said that a
19 group of girls was taken away in an unknown direction,
20 and in that house the ones that stayed after those had
21 been taken off was JB and FWS 132. And after they were
22 taken off, a girl was brought to the house, and she was
23 AT, whereas DB was taken away by Radovan Stankovic
24 without any explanation given to us. So for us, she
25 went off in some unknown direction.
Page 2432
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3
4
5
6
7
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14 the French and English transcripts.
15
16
17
18
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20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 2433
1 Q. DB, when was she taken away? Was she taken
2 away before the other girls?
3 A. No. She was taken away afterwards, after the
4 other girls.
5 Q. And do you know when that was about, at least
6 the season of the year?
7 A. Yes. It was autumn.
8 Q. Did she leave voluntarily, together with
9 Stankovic?
10 A. I don't think so, no, just like I consider --
11 no.
12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like to refer to
13 one of your previous statements you have given. I
14 would like to enter another document into evidence
15 which is not part of the exhibits binder, but it was
16 given in advance to Defence counsel. It would then be
17 Prosecution Exhibit 202, and it's a statement of the
18 witness given to the Bosnian police.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: What is the date?
20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The date of the document
21 is 27th March 1993, although in the translation there
22 is a mistake. It says, in the translation, "7 March
23 1993." That's a mistake. It's obviously, from the
24 B/C/S, that it's the 27th of March.
25 Would the usher please give this document to
Page 2434
1 the witness. And also I think it has been distributed
2 already to the registrar, and I would like to enter
3 this into evidence.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection to the motion by
5 the Prosecution to have it entered into evidence?
6 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No
7 objections, Your Honour. We have already received
8 those statements.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar.
10 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No objections,
11 Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic.
13 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] None, Your
14 Honour.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have a formal number of
16 the exhibit, please.
17 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] It is
18 Document 202 of the Prosecution, and it is entered
19 under seal.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please proceed.
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Witness, would you please have a look at the
23 version of this document in your language, and do you
24 see your signature on the document?
25 A. Yes.
Page 2435
1 Q. Do you recall that you once gave a statement,
2 after your release, to the Bosnian authorities?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In this, I will read a part of this document
5 to you. In the English version of this document --
6 it's not numbered, sorry. On page 7 of the English
7 version, it says: "I also know that DB fell in love
8 with Radovan Stankovic, and he transferred D to
9 Montenegro." There is a mentioning of "love" in this
10 previous statement. Did you give this statement, and
11 what did it mean?
12 A. I think that either when I gave my statement
13 or the person who recorded that statement, that there
14 was a very big misunderstanding, because I always
15 thought -- and I always stand by it -- that none of us
16 could ever have thought of something like that, because
17 I think that DB, first of all, experienced a great loss
18 in her family and that everything happened before her
19 very eyes, that she witnessed everything. So I think
20 that this is absurd, anything like this is absurd,
21 although once again I don't remember but -- I think it
22 is a great mistake, and I don't think I could have said
23 that or even thought that.
24 Q. What was Dragan Stankovic's attitude to DB?
25 May he have fallen in love or felt something for her?
Page 2436
1 A. Let me correct you. It wasn't Dragan
2 Stankovic, it was Radovan Stankovic.
3 Q. Sorry, yes.
4 A. I don't know. But he did not allow the other
5 soldiers to have sexual intercourse with DB. Now, I
6 don't want to comment on that, but I think that this is
7 a sign that she was in some way protected. Whether you
8 can call that love or not, I don't know.
9 Q. You mentioned the other girls who were taken
10 away before DB. Who, who was taken away, and what were
11 the circumstances?
12 A. They couldn't change anything, so this was
13 under orders. And I think, as the most responsible
14 person in the house was Pero Elez, this occurred under
15 his orders, maybe perhaps in agreement with those
16 people who came. And I think that at the time they
17 were saying once the girls were taken away, then they
18 would bring others from Foca, like some sort of an
19 exchange. So those that were taken away were FWS 87,
20 FWS 75, AS and AB.
21 Q. Do you happen to know what became of them?
22 A. What do you mean? Do I know now or did I
23 know then, what happened to them?
24 Q. Did you learn anything about them while you
25 were in Karaman's House?
Page 2437
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you learn afterwards, after your release?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What did you learn, and how did you learn it?
5 A. As we are all from one area, from one
6 municipality, so that more or less each one of us has a
7 member of the family in Sarajevo, and I think we went
8 through a very difficult period of our lives together.
9 I was interested, so enquiring around, I learned about
10 some of them. About others, I learned that when these
11 proceedings were instituted, because I see here some
12 names.
13 Q. Do you know what happened to the four girls
14 who you just mentioned? Where did they end up?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Who took them away, and when was that?
17 A. I don't know the exact date. People I didn't
18 know went as well as Pero Elez. He was a man whom they
19 addressed with a rank of the Yugoslav Army, and they
20 would address him with the surname "Kovac". I've
21 already mentioned that Zaga was there, then Jankovic,
22 Janko Jankovic, Tuta. I think that also present was --
23 I'm afraid I don't seem to be able to remember the
24 name. Everything is getting mixed up. I can't
25 recollect the name.
Page 2438
1 Q. However, the girls were taken away, and you
2 saw that?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. After also DB was taken away, who was left
5 behind in Karaman's House except for you?
6 A. JB stayed behind.
7 Q. And you also have mentioned already that a
8 third girl came then afterwards? You said that AT also
9 came to the house afterwards?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. These three of you, what happened to you?
12 A. After those four girls were taken away, DB
13 was, of course, taken away as well, so the three of us
14 stayed there for a while. AT joined us. I think that
15 by then -- I can't call it normal, but life had become
16 more peaceful. And among the soldiers in the house,
17 the only one that remained was Nikola Brcic. And we
18 continued living, waiting for some kind of a final
19 outcome.
20 Q. Did your family at a certain point find out
21 where you were?
22 A. My father -- perhaps not straight away, but
23 they did, yes. During the winter, they did; that is,
24 sometime in December, January. December '92, January
25 '93, they learned where I was.
Page 2439
1 Q. You've already mentioned that your father was
2 released in January '93. Was there also an attempt to
3 release you at the same time?
4 A. Yes. Those soldiers who came there told me
5 about that, and Nikola Brcic also told me, and he said
6 that my father -- he wanted to put my mind at ease. He
7 said, "Don't worry. He's left, and you should have
8 gone too." And again he mentioned somebody by the name
9 of Kovac. He often would say that this Kovac had a lot
10 of influence and that he didn't allow my departure;
11 that is, for me to be exchanged at the same time as my
12 father.
13 Q. I would like to refer you again to that
14 statement that you gave to the Bosnian authorities on
15 the 27th of March, 1993.
16 On page 7 of the English version, I will read
17 a sentence to you: "Someone called Mirko Kovac, also
18 known as Klanfa, did not allow it but rather asked that
19 I be taken for an exchange to Sarajevo."
20 You mentioned Milko Kovac. Is that the
21 person with influence you were talking about?
22 A. I don't know now whether that is the person,
23 because I didn't know that person.
24 Q. But in the sentence I just read to you, there
25 is also mentioned "also known as Klanfa." Do you know
Page 2440
1 any person with the name "Klanfa", and is that the
2 high-ranking soldier or high-ranking person who had
3 anything to do with exchange?
4 A. I personally didn't see him, but I know that
5 he was mentioned. And something that has remained
6 deeply embedded in my memory and my thoughts is the
7 surname "Kovac" and this nickname "Klanfa". Now,
8 whether that is the influential person, I really
9 couldn't say.
10 Q. Would you please describe your release to us
11 on the 21st of March, '93?
12 A. I reached freedom on the 24th of March,
13 1993. And on the 21st of March, we left that house in
14 Miljevina. A civilian car, a Golf, came to fetch us,
15 and a police car. I don't remember whether it belonged
16 to the Miljevina police station or not. But I know
17 that two other men were exchanged with us who had been
18 released from the KP Dom in Foca. They are Celik -- I
19 can't remember the first name. They are all rather
20 similar, so I may make a mistake. But what is
21 important is his surname "Celik", and my neighbour,
22 Sukrija Softic.
23 And JG, AT and I were exchanged. We set
24 off. As I can remember with certainty, that Pedo was
25 there, Predrag Trifkovic, Pedo, Zoran Samardzic, Tomo
Page 2441
1 Ostojic. Again, I don't know why we didn't go along
2 the road running through Miljevina, Dobro Polje,
3 Trnovo, to Sarajevo but rather along the road via
4 Montenegro, Celebici, Vajta, then through Montenegro,
5 and then turning back to the area of the town of
6 Rogatica. Then finally we reached Pale. From Pale, we
7 passed Lukavica, Vojkovici, and then the prison at
8 Kula, where we stayed until the actual exchange on the
9 24th.
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the
11 usher, I would like to put a document. It's another
12 exhibit which is not in the binder that you have, but
13 it should be in front of you. It was also given to
14 Defence in advance. It's Prosecution Exhibit 203.
15 It's both in English and in B/C/S.
16 Q. Witness, would you please look at the B/C/S
17 version of this document. Is it a report on an
18 exchange?
19 A. You mean my approval?
20 Q. No. I only ask you: When you look at the
21 document, it says "report on the exchange," and then we
22 have a date and then we have names. Is that a report
23 about your exchange and the exchange of the two other
24 girls and the other people you just mentioned?
25 A. Yes, it is certainly a report, and they are
Page 2442
1 the persons who were exchanged and they are the Muslims
2 who went for exchange together with me.
3 Q. And you were exchanged for whom? Who was
4 from the other side?
5 A. Of course, persons we didn't know, but after
6 our release, I knew that one person was a brother of
7 Tomo Ostojic's, and now I see that his name was
8 Nikola. I, of course, didn't know who he was or what
9 he was. But he addressed words of gratitude to us,
10 because it turned out that we owe each other our lives
11 and our freedom as we were being exchanged.
12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The Prosecution would
13 like to enter this document into evidence.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: I would like to find out from
15 the Defence whether there is an objection.
16 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No
17 objection, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?
19 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No objection,
20 Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic?
22 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No objection,
23 Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. May we have the
25 formal number?
Page 2443
1 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] It was
2 admitted under seal, Prosecution Exhibit 202 [sic].
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
5 Q. Given the time you survived in Karaman's
6 House, what effect did that have on your physical and
7 mental health, if any?
8 A. As I have said, we were very young and were
9 hardly conscious of some things. And we Muslims,
10 Bosniaks, would like to thank dear God, dear Allah, for
11 surviving. We didn't have any physical consequences,
12 but I, as a member of an old Bosniak family, I think
13 that no major traces have been left on our mental
14 state, but the wounds and scars remain and I'm trying
15 to overcome them. And in spite of everything, I have
16 managed to remain proud and dignified; and proud, in
17 the first place, of my name, my belonging to that
18 ethnic group.
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This was my last
20 question. I'm finished with this.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Since we have only
22 three minutes to lunch hour, we shall take our lunch
23 break now and cross-examination will start in the
24 afternoon at 1430 hours. We shall break off until 1430
25 hours.
Page 2444
1 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.57 p.m.
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Page 2445
1 --- On resuming at 2.31 p.m.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Good afternoon, Witness. We
3 are continuing with -- will start cross-examination,
4 actually, this afternoon.
5 Yes, Mr. Prodanovic.
6 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
7 Your Honour.
8 Cross-examined by Mr. Prodanovic:
9 Q. Before I ask you any questions, I would like
10 to say good afternoon to the witness. Do you remember
11 how many statements you gave to the representatives of
12 the International Tribunal?
13 A. One.
14 Q. Do you remember when you gave that statement?
15 A. I think it was in the summer of 1995.
16 Q. Was it 1995, or 1996 perhaps? Take a look at
17 your statement. You have it in front of you. Not that
18 one; the other one.
19 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I should
20 like to ask the usher to show the witness the statement
21 that she gave to the representatives of the Tribunal,
22 because we're going to ask her some questions with
23 respect to that statement.
24 Q. It is the statement that you gave to the
25 Security Services Centre of Sarajevo, if I'm correct.
Page 2446
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: What is the date of the
3 statement?
4 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
5 the date is the 14th of June, 1996.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: We don't seem to have it. Yes,
7 the Prosecution, maybe you can assist.
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: What we discussed with
9 the witness during the case in chief was her statement
10 given to the Bosnian authorities. The statement given
11 to the Tribunal has not yet been addressed, so you
12 would have to address it first. And it's part of the
13 binders, the binders, and I don't have now the binders
14 with me, but, it's --
15 MR. RYNEVELD: Exhibit 86.
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's Prosecution Exhibit
17 86.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: It's numbered 86. It's not yet
19 been released, I mean been discussed, so you are the
20 first one to discuss this.
21 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
22 Honour. I know that that statement has not been
23 introduced into evidence, but I wanted the witness to
24 be shown the statement so that the Defence could tender
25 it into evidence.
Page 2447
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Go ahead.
2 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
3 Your Honour.
4 Q. In addition to these statements, did you give
5 any other statements to anyone?
6 A. You mean the representatives of the
7 International Tribunal?
8 Q. No, I didn't only mean them.
9 A. I don't think so. The media, you mean? No.
10 Q. Did you give a statement to the Security
11 Services Centre of Sarajevo several days after you gave
12 your first statement?
13 A. Once again you mean the Tribunal, do you?
14 Q. No, not the Tribunal, but the Security
15 Services Centre Sarajevo. The first you made on the
16 27th of March. That was the first statement. And the
17 second on the 1st of April; is that correct?
18 A. Well, I can't remember now. So the question
19 is whether I gave two statements in Sarajevo; is that
20 your question?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. I can't remember, I really can't.
23 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I should
24 like to ask the usher once again for his assistance.
25 Could he hand some documents to the Trial Chamber and
Page 2448
1 the registrar and a copy to the witness?
2 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] To avoid any
3 confusion about the marking of documents, the statement
4 dated 14th of June, 1996, numbered -- or marked by the
5 Prosecutor under number 86, is now marked for
6 identification as Exhibit D43.
7 With regard to the witness statement dated
8 1st of April, 1993, it will be marked D44 for
9 identification purposes. These two documents are being
10 admitted under seal, or tendered under seal.
11 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] We should
12 like to ask that the statement given on the 27th of
13 March, 1993 to the Security Services of Sarajevo be
14 introduced into evidence as a Defence Exhibit. You
15 received a copy of the statement a moment ago when the
16 distinguished colleague of the Prosecution asked her
17 question.
18 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The witness
19 statement dated 27th of March, 1993 was marked 202, as
20 a Prosecution Exhibit.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, it was produced.
22 JUDGE HUNT: It was produced, but is it in
23 evidence?
24 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] May I
25 continue, Your Honour?
Page 2449
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please, as long as each
2 time you want to refer your questions to a particular
3 statement, you please describe it sufficiently, giving
4 it the number.
5 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well,
6 Your Honour. Yes.
7 Q. Do you remember giving those statements to
8 the Security Services of Sarajevo?
9 A. The first, yes, but the other one, I can't.
10 Q. You gave the statements in a brief period of
11 time. Why?
12 A. Because the Bosnian-Herzegovinian authorities
13 wanted to have them that way, probably to amass data on
14 the movement of the population.
15 Q. Can I conclude that it was at their
16 initiative, then?
17 A. Well, of course. Everything that took place
18 and everything I experienced was not something that I
19 instigated, or the statements that I gave, or the ones
20 I gave to this Tribunal. I didn't say myself, "I'm
21 going to make a statement," so all of those statements
22 were given in that light, whenever I was asked to do so
23 by anyone.
24 Q. Can you explain to us in which way you gave
25 the statements, the first and second? Did you dictate
Page 2450
1 it to a record keeper directly, did you write them out
2 in your own handwriting, or in another way?
3 A. I think it was all on the basis of a talk, a
4 discussion. That's how the statements were made, just
5 like the Court here is working. I gave answers to
6 questions asked me, which were then introduced into the
7 minutes or recorded.
8 Q. Did you hear the dictation of the statement
9 into the records?
10 A. Well, I can't remember that now. I don't
11 really know.
12 Q. Underneath your statements, we see your
13 signature; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did they ask you, when you gave your
16 statements, whether you wanted to have your statement
17 read back to you, what you stated?
18 A. I'm sorry, I didn't understand your question.
19 Q. When you gave your statements, were they --
20 did they ask you, the investigators, whether you wanted
21 your statements to be read back to you, or did you
22 listen to them being dictated into the record?
23 A. They asked me whether I wanted to read them
24 and whether I stand by that statement of mine.
25 Q. Did they read the statement out to you?
Page 2451
1 A. Well, quite simply, I don't remember. But at
2 any event, I think that I did read them before I
3 signed.
4 Q. Your signature means that you give
5 agreement -- that you agree that what is written in the
6 statement is what you actually said?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Why, then, did you not object to the portion
9 of the statement which speaks about Stankovic, Radovan
10 Stankovic, and the DB person about what you were asked
11 here today by the Prosecutor?
12 A. Well, quite simply, I don't know. Perhaps I
13 was -- well, a short space of time, it was all very
14 short, brief. Perhaps I was more interested in getting
15 away from that, rather than returning to all that
16 chaos.
17 Q. I understand you. But you went for a talk
18 only several days later. Why didn't you react then and
19 object to the statement that you had signed earlier on?
20 A. Because on the second occasion, I probably
21 didn't read that same statement out.
22 Q. Well, very well. Let's move forward.
23 Could you tell us, please, how the conflict
24 came about in Miljevina?
25 A. How the conflict came about. Well, first of
Page 2452
1 all, I can't say that an actual conflict did break
2 out. That is my vision of events. I think that the
3 Serbian people quite simply imposed its authority, its
4 law, in the region, because as far as I know and as far
5 as I'm aware, there was no struggle there, there was no
6 shooting, there was no kind of resistance on the part
7 of the Muslim population vis-a-vis those authorities
8 and that law.
9 Q. Could you tell us, before the conflict broke
10 out, what kind of relations did you have with your
11 neighbours?
12 A. Very good relations and very friendly
13 relations.
14 Q. Could you tell us, please, when these
15 relationships started to cool, were there any events
16 which took place which, in a way, contributed to the
17 fact that relations became cooler?
18 A. You mean -- in the settlement, in the village
19 where I lived, I don't think so up until that
20 particular moment, until there began to enter unknown
21 people, that is, began to search our houses. I think
22 that it was only at that point that we gained an
23 awareness -- the Bosniaks gained an awareness of what
24 was actually happening. In their own minds, they
25 gained this awareness.
Page 2453
1 Q. And in the territory of Foca, do you know if
2 there were any situations which led to this cooling of
3 relations? Were there any rallies of any kind?
4 A. Of course, that is common knowledge. Both
5 parties held rallies, the Democratic Action Party and
6 the SDS. But I should like to make it understood once
7 and for all that I was a child at the time. I was 15
8 years old.
9 Q. Yes, I'm quite well aware of that. In
10 Miljevina, was there a Muslim youth alliance which
11 rallied the youth?
12 A. I don't know that either because, as I say
13 quite simply, I didn't attend things like that, so I
14 didn't have time or any need to go to things like that,
15 nor was I interested in them.
16 Q. When the conflict came about, were there any
17 Serbs who assisted you and your family after the
18 outbreak of the conflict?
19 A. Well, not any special assistance, but there
20 were people who condemned it, who condemned what was
21 happening, and we considered that to be assistance.
22 So, yes, they did.
23 Q. Did this assistance happen at various times,
24 on several occasions?
25 A. Yes, of course.
Page 2454
1 Q. You described the situation today with
2 respect to the searches made of your home?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you tell us whether there was an incident
5 or incidents prior to these house searches?
6 A. Well, I said that on one occasion the truck
7 had gone off the road, and the very beginnings,
8 actually. That is to say, there was no cause for it.
9 It was just because we were members of another group,
10 nation.
11 Q. Can you tell us something about that incident
12 in a little more detail, please?
13 A. You mean when the truck went off the road?
14 Q. Yes, because I understood you to say that the
15 houses were searched after that.
16 A. Yes, this was one instance when the houses
17 were searched. But once again, this was something I
18 didn't see from my own eyes, but from what people said,
19 that is to say, from what my neighbours said, it turned
20 out that when they were coming back along a macadamised
21 road service, the truck went off the road, and they
22 said they had, in fact, encountered a mine. But we
23 didn't hear an explosion, nor did we see an explosion
24 of any kind, so ...
25 Q. Do you know an incident when 42 Serbs were
Page 2455
1 killed in a vehicle?
2 A. Yes, and I said a moment ago we were terribly
3 sorry to see all the sorrow and the crying and the
4 sadness, because it was our neighbours who had fallen
5 victim.
6 Q. Do you know what they were victims of, fell
7 victim to?
8 A. No. Something exploded. Now, what exploded
9 and why, once again, I heard from my neighbours who had
10 lost their nearest and dearest, but again I didn't see
11 the actual event.
12 Q. You said today that the Muslims weren't
13 armed, and the Serbs did nonetheless die; they were
14 nonetheless killed. How do you explain that?
15 A. Well, I didn't talk about the Muslims in a
16 broader area; I was talking about the local inhabitants
17 of my own village.
18 Q. The incidents we mentioned, that is to say,
19 most of them, took place near Miljevina.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And that's why I asked you for your
22 comments. How do you comment the fact that the
23 Muslims -- you say the Muslims weren't armed, whereas
24 the Serbs around Miljevina lost their lives?
25 A. Quite simply, I can't answer that question.
Page 2456
1 I state once again that I think it was once again not
2 at the very beginning, but seeing what was going on and
3 what was happening, that the people gained awareness of
4 the situation, and after that I think everything
5 happened in the summer months, after April. And we
6 know that the war began in the spring, which means that
7 they didn't just stand there and say, "Go on, kill me,"
8 but they started to set up a resistance themselves.
9 Q. Yes, that is quite clear to me, but where did
10 they get their weapons from?
11 A. Well, I don't know that.
12 Q. Do you know whether there was any BH army
13 stationed around Miljevina?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you remember when the first Serb refugees
16 came to Miljevina?
17 A. The Serb refugees in Miljevina? Well, I
18 think --
19 Q. Let me remind you, if I may.
20 A. Please go ahead, yes.
21 Q. In the statement you gave to the Security
22 Services of Sarajevo, the first statement, you said
23 that the Muslims were evicted from their homes and that
24 those homes were taken over by Serb refugees.
25 A. Yes. I'm going to ask you something now. In
Page 2457
1
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3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
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12
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14 the French and English transcripts.
15
16
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20
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22
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25
Page 2458
1 fact, can we define this more precisely? If somebody
2 lived some 15 minutes away from Miljevina and out of
3 fear withdrew into the interior, can he be termed a
4 refugee? Can you call him a refugee?
5 Q. But in your statement, your first
6 statement --
7 A. Yes. Very well. Yes.
8 Q. You say in your first statement -- and I can
9 show you the page. It is page 3. You say that the
10 first refugees arrived from Trnovo and Jabuka.
11 A. Well, I think that from Trnovo -- I don't
12 know, but I think there was fighting there and that
13 those people -- and I think that that was at the end of
14 April/beginning of May as well when these refugees
15 came, because there was fighting in the area between
16 Foca and Sarajevo, and Trnovo is on that road. That's
17 so, isn't it?
18 Q. Yes, yes. Does that mean that the Serbs had
19 to flee from their own homes?
20 A. Of course. Of course.
21 Q. When did you hear of Zaga for the first time?
22 A. Zaga. Well, when I came to Karaman's House,
23 after a certain amount of time went by, say two days.
24 Q. You said today that you went to the house on
25 two occasions.
Page 2459
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And the last time was on the 18th or 19th of
3 September, if I remember correctly.
4 A. That was the first time. The second time I
5 came to the house at the beginning of September.
6 Q. Does that mean that in between those two
7 dates --
8 A. No. I think I heard all the stories about
9 Zaga -- and I said this -- that the girls I mentioned
10 had already gone from Kalinovik and the sports hall,
11 the Partizan Sports Hall, and they talked about it.
12 They knew this story.
13 Q. Could you give us a rough idea of when you
14 heard about him for the first time?
15 A. I thought it was that first time, which means
16 on the 18th or 19th of August that I first heard about
17 him.
18 Q. You said that you heard about it from the
19 girls in the house.
20 A. Yes, that's right.
21 Q. Was there one particular girl who told you
22 about this? And don't mention names, please. If there
23 was, then give us her initials.
24 A. I really can't remember, but I think that
25 several of them talked about Zaga and that a number of
Page 2460
1 the girls mentioned him.
2 Q. What was said about him on that occasion?
3 A. Well, lots of terrible things, which sound
4 terrible to me even to this day: that he would take
5 people away, that he would divide them up, separate
6 them, that he brought his sort of army -- well, not his
7 army, but his people, and that they did what they liked
8 with the Bosniak women and girls.
9 Q. Did you know Zaga before the war?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did they then describe Zaga to you?
12 A. No.
13 Q. When you saw Zaga for the first time, did you
14 recognise him?
15 A. When do you mean?
16 Q. I apologise. When you saw him the first.
17 A. You mean over there, while I was there?
18 Q. Well, you were told that a certain Zaga
19 existed, and when you saw him the first time, did you
20 recognise him as Zaga?
21 A. No. I didn't have his physical description;
22 just what he did, his acts.
23 Q. When you saw him first, did somebody say,
24 "That's Zaga"?
25 A. No. No. Because they would come in groups,
Page 2461
1 and I think that nobody was there to explain who was
2 who. We just did what we could.
3 Q. Did you ever talk to him?
4 A. No.
5 Q. When you saw him for the first time, how was
6 he dressed?
7 A. As far as I am able to remember, I don't
8 think he was wearing an army uniform. I think he was
9 wearing civilian clothing, but I really don't
10 remember. And once again, let me repeat: I was very
11 afraid, and that upsets my recollections.
12 Q. Yes, I agree with you fully. When he came on
13 that first occasion, who was he with?
14 A. I think he might have been alone, actually.
15 The first time he came, that is.
16 Q. Did you remember when that first time was,
17 perhaps? Because you have now remembered that he was
18 maybe wearing civilian clothes. Do you happen to
19 remember when he came first?
20 A. I can't remember.
21 Q. How did he come? By car or on foot?
22 A. For our safety, we did not leave the house,
23 and the rooms we were in were facing the meadow and not
24 the entrance door, so the cars didn't come up to that
25 house, which means that he came to the door on foot.
Page 2462
1 But probably he came by car otherwise, because I don't
2 think he came on foot.
3 Q. I absolutely agree when you say that it is
4 difficult to remember all the details. I fully agree
5 with you there. But do you not allow for the
6 possibility that you saw him for the first time when he
7 came to the funeral of those people who had been
8 killed?
9 A. No, because I didn't see the funeral myself
10 or the people that went, because this was for security
11 reasons that we should go as far away from the window
12 as possible, and the street and everything else, to
13 keep away.
14 Q. No. You didn't understand me. Yes, I know
15 you couldn't see him directly, but did he come to the
16 house after the funeral?
17 A. To my house or Karaman's House?
18 Q. No. Karaman's House.
19 A. When the tragedy took place, I was in my own
20 house, my own home. When those 48 people were killed,
21 I was still in my own house, my own home.
22 Q. Very well. Well, there were several
23 incidents, so it is difficult to determine when each of
24 them took place.
25 Could you tell us who said, without listing
Page 2463
1 those persons -- you mentioned four of them today --
2 that they could go and leave Karaman's House.
3 A. Of course, I said that all of us who were
4 there, that during that time Pero Elez was in charge.
5 And I repeat: There was a group of them, so I assume
6 that Pero Elez must have given permission to somebody
7 to take those girls away from there.
8 Q. I understood that you were present also.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did anyone say where they were taking them?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did they say why they were taking them?
13 A. Not to us.
14 Q. Could you tell us when this happened?
15 A. Again, I cannot give you the exact date, but
16 it was the end of September or the beginning of
17 October.
18 Q. So you still maintain that in addition to the
19 persons that you listed today, Dragan Kunarac was also
20 present when these four persons were taken away?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What can you tell us in response to my
23 assertion that there are statements in the record who
24 give opposite statements to yours regarding Zaga's
25 presence when these girls were taken away?
Page 2464
1 A. Could you please repeat the question?
2 Q. What would be your response to my assertion
3 that in the brief there are allegations by other
4 witnesses who claim that Kunarac was not present with
5 these persons who took away the girls?
6 A. All I can say is that I didn't know him. But
7 if I recognised the face now and saw him here, it is up
8 to someone else to judge whether I was wrong or right.
9 Simply, some details one remembers better than others,
10 that face.
11 Q. I agree with you that you cannot remember all
12 the details. But would you allow for the possibility
13 that that may not have been so?
14 A. Yes, possibly.
15 Q. Why didn't you mention this detail in your
16 statement of 1993 to the Security Services in Sarajevo?
17 A. You mean the detail excluding the
18 possibility?
19 Q. You said today in your testimony that you saw
20 Zaga a couple of times in passing. I remember that.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Could you explain what that means?
23 A. I think that I explained to the Prosecutors.
24 In front of the house was a Muslim house where Alija
25 Hrbinic lived, and in that area there was a large
Page 2465
1 meadow and there was livestock there. And they
2 probably came -- I don't know whether it was for
3 themselves personally or for their unit -- to collect
4 some of the livestock for food, and as the road passed
5 by.
6 Q. I understand what you're saying. You mean he
7 would drop in as he passed by?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I'm not quite sure whether this was
10 translated well. The point is that he didn't come
11 there intentionally, that his aim was not to come
12 there, but he just dropped in on his way as he was
13 passing by. That is how I understood what you said.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. While you were in Karaman's House, did you
16 have regular meals and were you able to keep clean?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. We come to the incident when you went to
19 speak to your family by phone at the motel and you
20 didn't see any military equipment in front of the
21 hotel. That is what you said on the 11th page of your
22 statement. You just saw some telecommunications
23 equipment?
24 A. Yes, because those people who had brought me
25 there were very much afraid that something could happen
Page 2466
1 to me. So it was like in the movies. An armed man
2 would run up the steps and then I would pass quickly,
3 so I didn't really have time to take stock of anything.
4 Q. Did you have a telephone in Karaman's House?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Who could you call from that phone?
7 A. We never even tried, except the people who
8 were from that house. But in the motel, because that
9 was the order we had been given, should anybody disturb
10 us, that we could call them.
11 Q. You mentioned that while you were in
12 Karaman's House, a Montenegrin would come called
13 Dragan. Could you describe that person for us?
14 A. He came in the evening, but again he was a
15 man of 45, 50, very big, heavy. I can't remember -- I
16 didn't see the colour of his eyes or hair, I didn't
17 observe that.
18 Q. Does that mean that that person has nothing
19 in common with Dragan Kunarac, Zaga? You mean that it
20 was him?
21 A. No.
22 Q. In your statement, you mentioned that there
23 were other Montenegrins who came. Could you tell us
24 whether they were Montenegrins belonging to Pero Elez's
25 unit?
Page 2467
1 A. That man introduced himself. He gave his
2 name and surname, and he said, "I am Misko Savic, the
3 son of Cedo. My mother's name is Dusanka, from the
4 village of Sule," which is somewhere in Montenegro, so
5 he was a member of Pero Elez's guards.
6 Q. Do you know how DB left and who helped her to
7 get out?
8 A. As far as I can tell, I know she left the
9 house with Radovan Stankovic. What happened after
10 that, I don't know.
11 Q. Today, you allowed for the possibility that
12 perhaps Kunarac was not present when these four girls
13 were taken away. Let me remind you that on page 10 of
14 your statement, you said: "I had the feeling that
15 Jankovic, Kunarac, and Janjic had the same position as
16 Elez."
17 A. That is my opinion to this day, because,
18 after all, this was a small place, and this Pero Elez,
19 according to certain rumours, was a local Serb leader
20 in the area of Miljevina. And it is my opinion even
21 now that there were old parts of Foca, and each of
22 those mahalas or neighbourhoods had their own persons
23 in charge like Pero Elez. A village like Mjesaja, I
24 don't know where it is, but I know from the story that
25 Gojko Jankovic was in charge up there. For Tuta, of
Page 2468
1 course, also the rumour was that he engaged in crime.
2 So I think they had the same sort of positions, only
3 for different parts of Foca.
4 Q. Yes, I understand what you're saying. But
5 when describing this, you said: "I had the impression,
6 because of the way in which they communicated amongst
7 themselves, the way in which they spoke to one another,
8 as if they were equals." But today you had some doubts
9 as to whether they were all together at the same time.
10 So my question is: does this conclusion emanate from
11 the explanation that you gave now, rather than what I
12 have just read out to you?
13 A. I'm afraid I didn't understand you.
14 Q. I understood you to say that they were sort
15 of leaders, because in Foca everyone knows everyone
16 else, people knew who Pero was before the war, who Tuta
17 was, and you came to the conclusion on the basis of
18 their prewar biographies. That is how I understood
19 what you said.
20 In this statement that you gave, you
21 described a detail which you now have some doubts
22 about; that is, that both Zaga and Pero and Jankovic
23 and Tuta and Zelja were all present simultaneously, and
24 that then you came to the conclusion that they were
25 equals in rank, judging by the way they communicated?
Page 2469
1 A. Yes, that is when I came to that conclusion,
2 and not on the basis of any rumours.
3 Q. But today you also told us that you saw Zaga
4 only in passing?
5 A. I said in passing before that. But on that
6 day, he came specially with that group. I said I had
7 seen him a couple of times in passing, but that one day
8 he was there on purpose, together with the other
9 members of the group that took away those girls.
10 Q. I'm afraid I am still not quite clear about
11 this. A couple of moments ago, you said that you allow
12 for the possibility that Zaga was not with them when
13 those four girls were taken away, because I told you
14 that in the record, there is evidence provided by other
15 witnesses who deny Zaga's presence there and then.
16 In view of the fact that quite some time has
17 gone by, you allowed for the possibility that that may
18 have been so, but now you're somehow contradicting what
19 you said?
20 A. I don't know what to say.
21 Q. Did representatives of the Tribunal visit you
22 after Zaga voluntarily surrendered?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Let me refresh your memory. I have a
25 document which I received from the Prosecution, which
Page 2470
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Page 2471
1 says that on the 13th of March, 1998, Ms. Manke and
2 Thapa came to talk to you, so this was after Kunarac
3 had surrendered. Do you remember that?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did they show you any photographs?
6 A. No.
7 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
8 we have received these documents. Will you let me read
9 it, please?
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Which documents?
11 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
12 this is an internal memorandum which I didn't bring
13 with me because I assumed that the witness would
14 remember those details. I think the Prosecution has
15 that document. I can read out the contents of that
16 document, and if there are any objections --
17 JUDGE MUMBA: What you can do, Counsel, is
18 simply put the questions from what you've learned of
19 those documents to the witness, and then she can
20 answer.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Let me read out the contents, and maybe you
24 will remember then.
25 On the 13th of March, 1998, Mrs. Manke and
Page 2472
1 Mrs. Thapa from the Office of the Prosecutor visited
2 132, and the investigators, in their report, stated the
3 following:
4 "The witness stated that she had heard about
5 Kunarac's arrest on television but that she hadn't
6 recognised him. She said that the face of the man
7 arrested does not seem familiar. She also stated that
8 she didn't know him from before the war and that she
9 learned his proper name from other women who were
10 detained with her. She was not able to describe
11 Kunarac. She said that she did not believe that
12 Captain Dragan, who is mentioned, was actually Dragan
13 Kunarac."
14 Do you remember that now?
15 A. No.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: You appreciate, Counsel, that
17 those are notes by the Prosecution investigators. You
18 appreciate that?
19 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
20 Honour, but I am trying to refresh the witness's
21 memory.
22 JUDGE HUNT: You can't refresh her
23 recollection from a document which is not hers. May I
24 suggest you simply put to her, "Did you not say to
25 somebody from the Prosecution that you did not
Page 2473
1 recognise Mr. Kunarac at the time of his arrest," and
2 she saw him on television. That's the way to
3 cross-examine on this. It's not her document. You
4 can't ask her whether it's correct or not, but you can
5 use the material in it and ask her those things. If
6 she denies them, then there's a matter that you could
7 arrange with the Prosecution, if they will agree that's
8 what she did say. But you can't get it from the
9 witness. That's all.
10 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I take note
11 of your observation, Your Honour.
12 Q. You mentioned the exchange today, and at one
13 point in time you mentioned Ostojic and what he said
14 when he was exchanged with you?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were you able to conclude from that that in a
17 way, they had experienced some sort of tortures in
18 Sarajevo, as you had in Miljevina?
19 A. No, because it was not the place and time for
20 a conversation. The man was maybe too well aware. He
21 saw young girls of 14 and 15, and he saw himself. So
22 automatically we were not equal, and he felt the need
23 to express his gratitude.
24 Q. Can I infer from that that he couldn't wait
25 to leave Sarajevo?
Page 2474
1 A. Probably, yes. Everyone loves freedom and
2 his own people.
3 Q. Let me remind you again of the event when
4 these four girls were taken away. Did a person with a
5 surname Cicmil come on that occasion?
6 A. I didn't register it, and it doesn't seem to
7 ring a bell.
8 Q. Do you remember whether someone forced you to
9 make the sign of the cross?
10 A. No. No.
11 Q. In your statement given to the Security
12 Services in Sarajevo, you described Zaga in an entirely
13 different manner. Page 3 of your statement. Can you
14 find it, perhaps? Can you read it? It's hardly
15 legible. I have a better copy, so if I may, I'd like
16 to read it to you.
17 "At the end of September, two Samardzics came
18 for me. They are brothers. Their names are Nedjo and
19 Zoran, as I have said, and they are from Bileca, and
20 Pedo. They said that they were preparing me for an
21 exchange. They wanted to protect me from Zaga.
22 "Zaga was allegedly Dragoljub Kunarac, who,
23 as I heard, was by birth from Montenegro. He's about
24 180 to 190 centimetres tall, has very long hands, and
25 wears his hair long. It is brown and straight."
Page 2475
1 You made this statement in 1993, after the
2 exchange. When was your memory better, in 1993 or in
3 1996, when you made the statement to the investigators?
4 A. Of course in 1993.
5 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] We're almost
6 done, Your Honour.
7 Q. Today you mentioned a person called Gagovic,
8 Gaga.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Could you tell us something about him? When
11 did you first hear about this person?
12 A. I think that was during that same period,
13 that is, the 18th or 19th of August, when I visited the
14 house for the first time, when the girls were talking
15 about their capture, where they had come from. As I
16 knew who had brought me to that house, they knew who
17 had brought them, who had separated them from their
18 mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters. So I heard
19 that name for the first time from their stories.
20 Q. Did you ever see this person, Gagovic, Gaga?
21 A. As I didn't know him, no. Actually, I don't
22 know whether I saw him.
23 Q. You said you spent some time with these other
24 girls in the house. Were you close to any one of
25 them? Did you confide in one another?
Page 2476
1 A. No. No one trusted anyone. At least I
2 thought it was best to keep these things quiet, because
3 every trust could be abused, and I kept it deep within
4 me.
5 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] This was my
6 last question, Your Honour. Thank you.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?
8 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may
9 consult with my colleagues.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please. Go ahead.
11 [Defence counsel confer]
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prodanovic, if you need to
13 briefly discuss with your client right now, you can do
14 that before you proceed; if it's necessary, if you
15 think it's necessary.
16 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No need,
17 Your Honour. Thank you very much.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Go ahead.
19 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Did you mention today that Gaga came on a
21 number of occasions?
22 A. I think they mentioned him, that he was also
23 with that group. I can't remember all the names now,
24 but I think all these that I have mentioned often came
25 together, and as I didn't know the man, I cannot say
Page 2477
1 yes or no for certain.
2 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no
3 further questions, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, any questions?
5 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
6 Honour, I have a few questions to ask the witness.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Please go ahead.
8 Cross-examined by Mr. Kolesar:
9 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
10 A. Good afternoon.
11 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I
12 am going to base my cross-examination exclusively on
13 today's testimony and linked to the statement that she
14 made in Sarajevo on the 27th of March, 1993, and the
15 statement has been marked as Prosecution Exhibit 202.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
17 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]
18 Q. At the beginning of the statement, I read
19 that you gave the statement in the presence of your
20 guardian. And I'm not going to state his name, and
21 don't you say it either. The only thing I'm interested
22 in is whether this individual was a close or distant
23 relative of yours.
24 A. Yes. It is the son of my uncle.
25 Q. Thank you. And then I shall refer back to
Page 2478
1 the following briefly: When my learned colleague
2 questioned you today from -- my learned colleague of
3 the Prosecution, you said that when these four girls
4 were taken away, certain individuals were present -- I
5 don't want to enumerate them all -- and that among them
6 was also present a man with a high rank in the Yugoslav
7 army and that his surname was Kovac.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you know which rank he was addressed by
10 these group of people?
11 A. No. Quite simply, I don't know -- I'm not
12 acquainted with ranks, so although I do know that it
13 was a rank of the Yugoslav People's Army, but exactly
14 what rank, I don't know.
15 Q. Was it lieutenant colonel or colonel,
16 perhaps?
17 A. I don't know really.
18 Q. What I'm interested in next is the appearance
19 of this man. Was it a younger man or an elderly man?
20 A. Well, as I saw him them, I think he had a
21 black beret, that he was wearing a camouflage uniform,
22 that he was short, that he was rather on the thin side.
23 Q. How old would you say he was, and what was
24 the colour of his hair?
25 A. He was wearing a black beret, but I don't
Page 2479
1 notice details like that usually, particularly not in
2 circumstances of these kind. But he could have been
3 between 45 and 50. That's how I saw him. That's how I
4 experienced him.
5 Q. So he was a middle-aged man, would you say?
6 A. Well, I don't know whether he's middle-aged
7 or not, but yes.
8 Q. At the end of your statement, you say the
9 following. And this is a very bad photocopy, but
10 please put me right if I read something out wrongly.
11 A. Just a minute, please. May I take a look?
12 Q. It is the one-but-last line of your
13 statement, on the last page: "We continued our journey
14 towards Foca and we stopped off at Velecevo, where
15 there was a women's penitentiary, a house of correction
16 at one time." Have you found that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now I should like to ask you, while you were
19 there -- I see some papers -- did you perhaps see this
20 Kovac there, happen to see him there?
21 A. Well, quite simply, I wasn't looking at that
22 moment, and I didn't see him.
23 Q. Thank you. I have one more matter to clear
24 up. Once again, the photocopy is a very bad one. It
25 is the last page again of your statement, where you
Page 2480
1 say:
2 "I knew nothing of my family, apart from the
3 fact that my father was at the KP Dom in Foca, and when
4 he was transported to Belgrade, Predrag Trifkovic told
5 me this. And he also said that they were looking for
6 me, but that a certain Mirko Kovac, nicknamed Klanfa,
7 wanted me to go to Sarajevo for an exchange."
8 Was that entered into the statement
9 correctly, as I have read it out?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you the following:
12 Were you -- did you mean Mirko Kovac, perhaps? Did you
13 mean Marko Kovac and not Mirko Kovac? Did you
14 misspeak, perhaps?
15 A. Well, I'd like to stress that I know the
16 surname was Kovac, certainly, I know he had a rank, but
17 possibly I did misspeak when it came to his Christian
18 name. So the surname I'm certain of, and his rank, I
19 know he had a rank, but quite possibly I was mistaken
20 in his name.
21 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you,
22 Witness.
23 Your Honours, those were my questions. I
24 have no further questions.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic?
Page 2481
1 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your
2 Honours, Mr. Vukovic's Defence has no questions of this
3 witness. Thank you.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Re-examination?
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. I
6 have a few questions.
7 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:
8 Q. Do you recall when the accused Dragoljub
9 Kunarac was arrested or surrendered?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Do you recall that you ever saw him on TV or
12 in newspaper?
13 A. Yes, because in the Bosnian-Herzegovinian --
14 the Bosnian and Herzegovinian public did follow the
15 event. So yes, I did, because we always follow all the
16 trials, and all the trials are televised.
17 Q. And did you see a picture of him, either on
18 TV or in a newspaper? Do you recall that?
19 A. Quite simply, these are matters that I wanted
20 to skip over. I didn't pay attention to them. And
21 quite simply, I don't know. I didn't want to look at
22 them. And I very often make a mistake when it comes to
23 names, so I really don't know whether the person I saw
24 was the person of that particular name.
25 Q. When you looked here through the courtroom,
Page 2482
1 you pointed out Dragoljub Kunarac and you said that he
2 is Zaga, whom you saw at Karaman's House. Are you
3 sure, and how can you be sure? What is it you
4 recognise?
5 A. I recognised his very marked bones here, and
6 all the people looked different. He was very tall and
7 he had these very prominent cheekbones, and that is
8 something which has stayed with me and for me is a part
9 of my recollection.
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No further questions,
11 Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Witness,
13 for giving evidence to the Tribunal. You are now
14 free. You can go. Can you just wait?
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Do we have another witness from
17 the Prosecution?
18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we did not
19 anticipate that it would be that short, and therefore
20 the witness is not in the house. She is here in The
21 Hague, but she's not in the house. And it's also a
22 point that only today we gave the information to the
23 Defence counsel that we would have the Witness 96, so I
24 assume they're also not prepared to have her today. So
25 I would rather suggest not to bring her here right now,
Page 2483
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Page 2484
1 which would take some time, but put her on tomorrow.
2 But we may have -- we may discuss the Defence
3 motion for protective measures, which we received today
4 and we would like some clarification on.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We have heard what the
6 Prosecution have said about the next witness. Probably
7 we will start with the next witness tomorrow morning at
8 0930.
9 The Prosecution can proceed with Defence
10 motion on protective measures, and you indicated that
11 you wish to seek clarification.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE MUMBA: We are wondering whether we
14 should hold this in public, in a public session,
15 because I saw the motion is confidential, so it's
16 between the parties and Trial Chamber.
17 MR. RYNEVELD: I think perhaps it would be
18 wise if we did this in-camera at the moment, and
19 whatever your decision may be, of course, can be made.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Out of caution, let's
21 have it in closed session. Private session, yes.
22 [Private session]
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
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21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
22 3.47 p.m., to be reconvened on
23 Thursday, the 27th day of April, 2000,
24 at 9.30 a.m.
25