Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2493

1 Thursday, 27 2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Madam Registrar, please call

7 the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case number

9 IT-96-23-T and IT-96-23/1-T, the Prosecutor versus

10 Dragoljub Kunarac, Radomir Kovac, and Zoran Vukovic.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness. Please

12 make the solemn declaration.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

14 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

15 and nothing but the truth.


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution, please.

19 Examined by Ms. Kuo:

20 Q. Good morning, Witness.

21 A. Good morning.

22 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I

23 would like to show the witness Exhibit 204 and ask that

24 this be entered into evidence.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prodanovic, yes.

Page 2494

1 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

2 I have been informed by my client that he is not

3 getting the interpretation in his headphones.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we try again? Let me greet

5 the witness.

6 Good morning, Witness. Can you respond? We

7 want to see whether one of the accused can hear.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear

9 you.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Not yet.

11 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

12 he is able to hear you, but not the witness.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the usher please try to

14 assist. The problem seems to be he can't hear the

15 witness. Can the witness say something, please?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What should I

17 say? Good morning.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Could you say it again?

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Could you say "good morning"

20 again, Witness, please?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think now we can

23 proceed.

24 MS. KUO:

25 Q. Witness, you have been shown what has been

Page 2495

1 marked as Exhibit 204 for identification. Could you

2 take a look at that, please, and tell me if you see

3 your name?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And is your name followed by the number "96",

6 "FWS 96"?

7 A. Yes. Yes, that's what it says.

8 Q. You should understand that during these

9 proceedings, you will be referred to by that number.

10 Do you understand that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Underneath your name, do you also see your

13 birth date?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And underneath that, do you also see the name

16 of your husband?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Below that is the name of your older son; is

19 that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. That's followed by the year that he was born;

22 is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And, finally, do you see the name of your

25 younger son and the year that he was born?

Page 2496

1 A. Yes.

2 MS. KUO: Your Honours, we would ask that

3 Exhibit 204 be entered in evidence.


5 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Exhibit 204

6 will be admitted under seal.

7 MS. KUO:

8 Q. Witness, in 1992, when the war was taking

9 place, how old were your sons?

10 A. My one son was 23 years old, and the other

11 was 22. The difference between them was about a year

12 and two months, something like that.

13 Q. Witness, how old are you?

14 A. Now?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. Fifty-two.

17 Q. During the war, how old were you?

18 A. Forty-three, when the war started.

19 Q. Where were you born?

20 A. In Purisi, Foca municipality.

21 Q. What ethnicity are you?

22 A. Muslim.

23 Q. In 1992, where did you live?

24 A. The village of Trosanj, Foca municipality.

25 Q. Who did you live with?

Page 2497

1 A. I lived with my husband and two sons.

2 Q. Where did your husband work?

3 A. My husband worked in Sipad Maglic.

4 Q. Did you work outside the home?

5 A. No, I did not. I was a housewife.

6 Q. Do you know when the war in Foca started?

7 A. On the 8th of April.

8 Q. That was 1992?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you see or hear anything relating to

11 the war, when it started?

12 A. We had a premonition that things were

13 different. Our neighbours or the others would not

14 allow us to meet with them, so the climate had changed

15 between us.

16 Q. When you say your neighbours would not allow

17 you to meet with them, what neighbours were you

18 referring to?

19 A. I'm referring to our closest neighbours in

20 Mjesaja, Trosanj, our close, next-door neighbours in my

21 village.

22 Q. Were those neighbours Serbs or Muslims?

23 A. Serbs.

24 Q. Did they give a reason why you were not

25 supposed to meet with them anymore?

Page 2498

1 A. No, they didn't give us any reason. They

2 just said that we shouldn't meet, but I don't know the

3 reason.

4 Q. Was your husband able to work right up until

5 the war started?

6 A. No, he couldn't work.

7 Q. Why not?

8 A. I don't know the reason either. People were

9 simply laid off.

10 Q. Was he told why he was laid off?

11 A. No, he wasn't told, except that he had to be

12 laid off. That was it.

13 Q. Do you know if Serbs and Muslims were laid

14 off?

15 A. Mostly the Muslims were laid off.

16 Q. Did you notice anything else around town

17 before the war started? Were there soldiers present?

18 A. Well, you see, there were, yes. We would

19 notice vehicles going by, going to Montenegro. But

20 just immediately prior to the war, we didn't dare move

21 around much.

22 Q. When the war started on April 8th, were you

23 able to hear shooting or anything like that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What did you hear, and where?

Page 2499

1 A. We heard shooting in Foca. We saw

2 surrounding Muslim villages burning. We also heard on

3 the radio that Foca was captured by the Serbs. That's

4 what we knew, nothing more.

5 Q. You mentioned that you saw Muslim villages

6 burning. Did you see Serb villages burning as well?

7 A. No, Serb villages were not burning. Only

8 Muslim ones.

9 Q. You mentioned listening to the radio. Who

10 was the radio controlled by?

11 A. The Serbs.

12 Q. Do you know when Foca actually fell?

13 A. As far as I know, eight days the struggle

14 lasted, the fighting.

15 Q. How did you know when Foca finally fell?

16 A. We knew, we heard on the Serb media. As many

17 people as could fled. We couldn't move around. We

18 couldn't even going to Mjesaja; we were not allowed to

19 go. That's as much as we could see.

20 Q. Did you hear anything about the name of Foca

21 changing at that time?

22 A. It is now called Srbinje. The name has been

23 changed.

24 Q. Do you know when it was changed?

25 A. During the war.

Page 2500

1 Q. Now, you mentioned that you weren't able to

2 go to Mjesaja. How far away was it from your village?

3 A. About two kilometres. One and a half to two,

4 roughly.

5 Q. Why weren't you able to go there?

6 A. Because it was prohibited.

7 Q. Who prohibited it?

8 A. The Serbs prohibited it.

9 Q. Did anyone order that weapons had to be

10 turned in by Muslims?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Who?

13 A. Jovan Vukovic, he came to see us and ordered

14 that the next day everyone had to surrender their

15 weapons.

16 Q. Did he say it was only the Muslims, or

17 everybody?

18 A. As far as I know, the Muslims.

19 Q. Did he give a reason?

20 A. No. That's all he said, that the order had

21 come for the weapons to be surrendered.

22 Q. Did your husband have any weapons?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What kind of weapons did he have?

25 A. My husband was a reserve policeman in MUP.

Page 2501

1 He had been issued an automatic rifle; he had a pistol

2 with a license, a DT pistol, and he surrendered both.

3 Q. Why did he surrender them?

4 A. Because he had to, because that was the

5 order.

6 Q. During this time, did you hear of the

7 existence of a Crisis Staff in Foca?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you know what they did?

10 A. I didn't know what they did. They were

11 planning things, I suppose. But I couldn't go there to

12 see what they were doing.

13 Q. Do you know who was in charge or who the

14 members were?

15 A. Serbs.

16 Q. Did you know what their stated goal was?

17 A. I did not know.

18 Q. Now, after the war started in Foca, were you

19 able to continue living in your house?

20 A. We lived there for a time, until they

21 attacked our village. At night we would go to sleep in

22 the woods, and then during the daytime we would return

23 to our homes.

24 Q. Why did you do that?

25 A. Because we were afraid. We had to.

Page 2502

1 Q. Are you able to describe what you were afraid

2 of?

3 A. We were afraid because we saw surrounding

4 villages burning, that there were no more Muslims left

5 there, as much as we could see, because we couldn't

6 move about. But that was all we could see from a

7 distance, and we were not allowed to move around.

8 Q. Did you feel targeted specifically because

9 you were Muslims?

10 A. Yes. Nothing else.

11 Q. Were there several groups also sleeping in

12 the woods at that time?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What family members were in your group?

15 A. My husband, my two sons, [redacted]

16 (redacted)

17 Q. I will show you an exhibit, Exhibit 205, with

18 the assistance of the usher.

19 I'm going to ask you not to use anybody's

20 names but the numbers that are assigned to that

21 person. Could you please let us know if you see --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. -- the names of other people --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. -- in your group, and just indicate them by

Page 2503













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14 the French and English transcripts.













Page 2504

1 the number.

2 A. Number 87, DB. Only these two names on the

3 list, 87 and DB.

4 Q. Were there also relatives of 87 and DB hiding

5 in your group? Don't use their names. Just tell us

6 their relationship.

7 A. Yes, their parents.

8 Q. Was their brother also with them?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You mentioned that your village was attacked

11 on the 3rd of July, 1992; is that right?

12 A. Yes. Yes.

13 Q. What time of day was your village attacked?

14 A. In the morning, at twenty past six.

15 Q. Could you tell us, please, what happened when

16 your village was attacked.

17 A. What happened was we heard shots. We started

18 running towards the hill, towards the woods. The

19 shooting went on, and fleeing, my husband got killed.

20 Two metres away from me [name redacted] was killed,

21 [name redacted] --

22 Q. When you say your husband -- did you actually

23 see your husband get killed?

24 A. He was shot in the chest. I didn't see it,

25 but I saw him shot with a bullet. He rolled down the

Page 2505

1 slope. He fell and rolled down.

2 Q. There were also two other women who were shot

3 and killed; right? Don't give us their names.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you also see them fall?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did one of them have a small child with her

8 who fell out of her arms?

9 A. Yes. The child was not even two years old.

10 Q. And did someone pick up the child and take

11 care of the child from then on?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you see who was shooting?

14 A. The Serb army was shooting.

15 Q. Could you see individuals?

16 A. I did.

17 Q. Could you describe what they were wearing?

18 A. They had bands across their sleeves, white

19 and yellow, black bandannas around their heads, and

20 gloves with the fingers cut off, and camouflage

21 uniforms.

22 Q. Were they also carrying weapons?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you tell what kind of weapons?

25 A. I don't know much about weapons, I'm afraid,

Page 2506

1 but it was something more than automatic rifles and

2 that sort of thing.

3 Q. How many of them were there?

4 A. As far as I could see, there was some 20 odd,

5 those that were closer.

6 Q. When you saw these individuals, these

7 soldiers, what did they do?

8 A. I don't understand the question. Could you

9 repeat it, please?

10 Q. What were you able to see these people do?

11 A. We could see, when they surrounded them, that

12 they started beating men, in particular. There were

13 also three women wounded and this small child, whose

14 mother had got killed.

15 Q. Were your sons beaten?

16 A. Yes, yes. They beat them badly. They beat

17 the older son so hard with a rifle butt on the head

18 that he was all covered in blood, and I think one eye

19 was injured. And then they would extinguish cigarettes

20 on the neck and beat him with some sort of sticks on

21 the shoulders and the neck.

22 Q. Were the soldiers saying anything while they

23 beat your older son?

24 A. Yes. One said -- he cursed them and didn't

25 know -- saying they didn't know what to do with them

Page 2507

1 when they were beaten up like that.

2 Q. Did the soldiers give any reason they were

3 beating your older son?

4 A. I just heard them saying to him, "You studied

5 well."

6 Q. Did the soldiers take anything from your

7 older son?

8 A. Yes. He had a black jacket on him. They

9 took it and threw it away. He had a purse, a driving

10 license, and an ID card. They tore it up and threw it

11 away.

12 Q. Did your older son say anything while this

13 was happening to him?

14 A. No, he didn't say anything.

15 Q. Did the soldiers also beat your younger son?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What did they do to him?

18 A. Again, they burned him with cigarettes on the

19 neck, they beat him with wooden sticks. They took away

20 his ID card, driving license, tore them up. Then they

21 demanded he give them his car keys, which he did.

22 Q. Did the soldiers say anything while they beat

23 your younger son?

24 A. I didn't hear anything.

25 Q. Did your son say anything?

Page 2508

1 A. He didn't say anything.

2 Q. Without giving the names of other men who

3 were beaten, could you describe what you saw happen to

4 them?

5 A. Yes. They beat this one man so badly that

6 blood started coming out of his mouth. They beat him

7 on the back, on the neck. Then another one, they hit

8 him with a rifle butt in the stomach, and another one

9 took off his wristwatch.

10 Q. Do you mean a soldier took the wristwatch

11 from a man?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. I'll ask you to look at Exhibit 205, the

14 piece of paper in front of you. The person who is

15 identified there as 91, was she also present?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was she also hit or beaten?

18 A. They beat her when she tried to protect my

19 son. She said, "What's he done? Why are you beating

20 him?"

21 Q. And how was she beaten?

22 A. They beat her on the head, and she was

23 wounded in the head and the arm.

24 Q. Were you also beaten?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2509

1 Q. How?

2 A. They hit me on the shoulder blade, and they

3 broke my collarbone, which I can prove.

4 Q. Did they say anything to you while you were

5 being beaten or give a reason?

6 A. No.

7 Q. How did the beatings stop? Did someone stop

8 it?

9 A. Yes, a young man of some 25 years old. He

10 had a ponytail. He said that the beatings should stop

11 and that the people should be taken to a meadow.

12 Q. Did he say -- this was a soldier as well;

13 right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did he say why the beatings should stop?

16 A. He didn't say anything.

17 Q. Did you recognise any of these soldiers?

18 A. No, I didn't recognise any of them there.

19 Q. Do you know any of their names?

20 A. I don't know -- didn't know any of them up

21 there until we went down to the meadow.

22 Q. When did you -- how did you get to the

23 meadow?

24 A. Well, he told us to go down there, and then

25 we stopped there. Some 50 metres we had to go to that

Page 2510

1 meadow.

2 Q. Who told you to go there?

3 A. The soldiers.

4 Q. Was everyone taken there or just a part of

5 the group?

6 A. You mean us civilians?

7 Q. Yes. I mean was it just the women and

8 children who were taken to the meadow or the men as

9 well?

10 A. The men, the women, all of us were taken to

11 the meadow.

12 Q. Was there somebody else in the meadow when

13 you arrived?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Who? Who was already in the meadow when you

16 arrived?

17 A. There was Gojko Jankovic, Neso Jankovic,

18 called Cicak, Slavo Ivanovic, a taxi driver whom I knew

19 well before the war.

20 Q. How were they dressed?

21 A. Slavo Ivanovic was wearing civilian

22 clothing. He had a rucksack on his back. The other

23 ones wore camouflage uniform.

24 Q. What happened to you civilians in the meadow?

25 A. They separated the men, seven of them. They

Page 2511

1 lined them up. I didn't know the name of the Vojvoda,

2 but I know that's how they referred to him. His hair

3 was well cut, he was clean shaven. He was a younger

4 man; about 40 years old, I would say. He tried

5 swearing at them. He took the cross from his neck and

6 made them kiss the cross.

7 Q. Made the seven men kiss the cross, you mean?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. When you say "Vojvoda", do you mean that he

10 seemed to be in charge?

11 A. I think he was there. Gojko Jankovic was the

12 boss there, I know that, but I suppose he was the next

13 in line.

14 Q. And what did the men do when they were forced

15 to do this?

16 A. They did what they were told to do.

17 Q. What happened next?

18 A. Then they told the women and children to go

19 on downwards, and we went off, about 100 metres. We

20 heard a shot from the direction of where the men had

21 stayed. They told us to lie down and that it was the

22 balijas that were shooting, and they cursed our balija

23 mothers.

24 Q. Did you hear anything else after you laid

25 down?

Page 2512

1 A. We didn't hear anything else.

2 Q. Did you hear only one shot, or did you hear

3 several shots?

4 A. Several.

5 Q. Do you know at that moment what happened?

6 A. I didn't see anything but I assumed that they

7 had killed them all, there and then.

8 Q. Did you ever see either of your two sons

9 again?

10 A. Never.

11 Q. Did anybody ever tell you that they saw your

12 sons' bodies?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Where were their bodies?

15 A. Their bodies were in the clearing, where the

16 people who had been killed behind us all stayed.

17 Q. Did anyone tell you that they saw the bodies

18 of the seven men in that clearing?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Were you taken some place after this?

21 A. Yes. They took us to Buk Bijela, Mjesaja.

22 Q. How did you get there?

23 A. Well, we went until we got to the workers

24 barracks at Buk Bijela, and that's where they worked.

25 They gathered us all together there, collected us up.

Page 2513

1 And there were a lot of soldiers there.

2 Q. Did you go by foot?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. How far did you have to walk? What was the

5 distance?

6 A. About two kilometres.

7 Q. How were you feeling at that moment?

8 A. How could I feel? The worst possible ever.

9 Q. When you arrived at Buk Bijela, you mentioned

10 that you saw soldiers there. What were they doing?

11 A. Yes. They were standing around with weapons,

12 and they started taking us off to the investigation

13 rooms.

14 Q. You say "investigation rooms". Can you

15 describe them, please.

16 A. Yes. They were workers barracks, which were

17 on the ground floor. They were small rooms. The room

18 that they took me to, there were two beds. And Janjic

19 Janko, Tuta, was there; he took me off personally to

20 question me.

21 Q. You called them "investigation rooms". Why

22 did you call them that?

23 A. Well, they told us that we would have to go

24 to those rooms for them to ask us something.

25 Q. When Janko Janjic took you to the room, what

Page 2514

1 did he do?

2 A. He asked me for my money and gold; I had none

3 of that. Then he made me take my clothes off. I

4 didn't want to. I tried to defend myself. He slapped

5 me; he swore at me. Then I took my clothes off. I was

6 menstruating at the time, and he saw that I was

7 bleeding heavily, so that he continued to curse me.

8 And then he went out after that and later on I went

9 out.

10 Q. Did he touch you in any way?

11 A. Yes, he slapped me.

12 Q. Did he say anything other than cursing you?

13 A. He didn't say anything but he told me to take

14 my clothes off. And I think it was clear to him when

15 he saw that I was menstruating, so he didn't say

16 anything after that.

17 Q. What happened after he left the room?

18 A. He went off to the soldiers. I don't know; I

19 went out after him. I put my clothes on and left the

20 room after him.

21 Q. Where did you go?

22 A. I went out to join the people who were

23 outside the barracks, the women who had not been taken

24 off to the rooms like I was for questioning.

25 Q. Were all the women and girls there when you

Page 2515













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Page 2516

1 arrived back?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did they all eventually return?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could you describe what the women and girls

6 looked like when they returned? And if you make

7 specific reference to an individual, please use their

8 number.

9 A. They would come back with their heads bowed

10 down, very sad looking. And 87, when she came back,

11 she wasn't able to walk. She was only 15 years old at

12 the time. Her mother screamed when she saw what her

13 daughter looked like. We helped her get into the bus

14 when they took us off to Foca because she couldn't get

15 on herself.

16 Number 75, the same thing happened -- she

17 looked the same way, her appearance was the same. They

18 were crying a lot. And we helped as far as we were

19 able to.

20 Q. Did any of the women or girls tell you what

21 had happened to them?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What did they tell you?

24 A. They told me that several of them had raped

25 them down there in Buk Bijela, in those rooms there.

Page 2517

1 Q. When you say "several of them", could you

2 tell us who you mean?

3 A. I mean the soldiers.

4 Q. So that each girl said that several soldiers

5 raped her; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was the uncle of Number 75 also at Buk

8 Bijela?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you see him when he was taken back?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How did he look?

13 A. He looked all bloody when they took him out

14 of the room. He was taken out by two soldiers with

15 weapons. They took him off towards the Drina River.

16 We heard a shot fired. And then they returned and they

17 said he tried to escape but he didn't get far. And I

18 saw that one of the soldiers had a bloody knife and he

19 washed it from a tap in front of the restaurant.

20 Q. Did you ever see 75's uncle again?

21 A. Never.

22 Q. You mentioned that Tuta, Janko Janjic, took

23 you into the room. Did you know him before the war?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How did you know him?

Page 2518

1 A. Well, lots of people knew Tuta, because even

2 before the war he was a serious criminal and always a

3 problem.

4 Q. Did you recognise any of the other soldiers

5 at Buk Bijela?

6 A. No. Just the civilians.

7 Q. How were you taken away from Buk Bijela?

8 A. About 3.00 in the afternoon, a bus arrived

9 and they told us to get in, and they took us away to

10 Foca.

11 Q. Were there soldiers on the bus with you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Where in Foca were you taken?

14 A. They took us to in front of the MUP building,

15 some 20 metres away. I'm not quite sure to the metre.

16 Q. When you say "MUP building", is that the same

17 as the SUP, the police headquarters?

18 A. Yes. Yes, it is.

19 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher,

20 I'd like to have this witness shown Exhibit 11,

21 photograph 7295.

22 Q. Witness, do you recognise this photograph?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you describe what's in it?

25 A. It's the MUP building. Yes, I can. This is

Page 2519

1 the MUP building [indicates]. The entrance is here

2 [indicates].

3 Q. Do you see other buildings that you recognise

4 in this photograph?

5 A. Yes, I do. This was the building beside the

6 MUP. It was the post office building.

7 Q. Could you indicate that for us?

8 A. Yes. Here [indicates], this one here was --

9 this was a supermarket, and a post office here

10 [indicates].

11 Q. And you're indicating the first building to

12 the left of this photograph; right?

13 A. Yes, that's right.

14 Q. And the MUP or SUP building is the white

15 building directly in the middle of that photograph; is

16 that correct?

17 A. Yes, this building here [indicates].

18 Q. To the right of that building on the

19 photograph, did you see another building that you might

20 recognise?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What is it?

23 A. I see the building, but I can't quite

24 recognise it. Up here [indicates], this is around the

25 Partizan.

Page 2520

1 Q. You're indicating to the right of the MUP

2 building?

3 A. Yes, yes, that's right [indicates].

4 Q. You just pointed to a building. Do you

5 recognise that to be the Partizan?

6 A. Yes, I do, as far as I can see, looking at it

7 from this angle.

8 MS. KUO: Could the usher maybe make it a

9 little bit easier for the witness to see?

10 A. Yes, I see it. It's quite clear. This is

11 the MUP building [indicates], and this is -- is this

12 Partizan or not? I can't quite find my way here. It's

13 a little too small for me.

14 MS. KUO: That's all right, Witness.

15 Thank you, usher. Could I ask that the light

16 on the ELMO be turned off so there's no glare on the

17 witness. Thank you.

18 Q. What happened when you were taken to the SUP

19 building?

20 A. They didn't take us to the SUP building, they

21 left us in the bus. And two soldiers went off into the

22 SUP building, whereas the others went towards the

23 Grille. I don't know why.

24 Q. Were there any soldiers left in that bus with

25 you?

Page 2521

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did anybody try to leave the bus?

3 A. No. Where would we go? We had no choice.

4 Q. Were you scared?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you see soldiers on the street?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What were the soldiers wearing?

9 A. They had weapons.

10 Q. Were they all in uniform?

11 A. Well, there were those who were in uniforms,

12 but there were some civilians as well, although not

13 very frequently. You couldn't see many civilians.

14 Q. Did you see any insignia on the uniforms or

15 on the civilians even?

16 A. No, not on the civilians, no.

17 Q. Could you see any insignia on the soldiers?

18 A. Well, they had the sort of insignia that they

19 had when our village was attacked. And some had the

20 JNA uniforms, others wore camouflage uniforms.

21 Q. Did anybody have anything on them that said

22 "SDS"?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you see any destruction in the town?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2522

1 Q. Could you describe that for us, please?

2 A. I did see, because I knew Donje Polje and the

3 Carsija and Gornje Polje. I knew a lot of these Muslim

4 houses, and I saw that they had been burnt down and

5 destroyed, devastated.

6 Q. How long did you stay in front of the SUP

7 building?

8 A. Well, I think it was about 20 minutes to half

9 an hour. I'm not quite sure how long we stayed there.

10 I can't tell you exactly.

11 Q. Where were you taken after that?

12 A. After that, they took us to the secondary

13 school at Aladza.

14 Q. And could you describe the secondary school,

15 what it looked like when you arrived?

16 A. When we arrived, they told us to get off the

17 bus, and we saw a lot of soldiers there. The building

18 had a ground floor and an upper storey where the

19 classrooms were. They took us into one of the

20 classrooms, so that they brought us some sort of foam

21 mattresses afterwards and some blankets.

22 Q. Were you given anything to eat?

23 A. They gave us something to eat. We did eat

24 there while we were at the secondary school. We had

25 soup, macaroni. Well, that sort of thing, but we did

Page 2523

1 have something to eat.

2 Q. Was it enough food for everybody?

3 A. Well, what can I tell you? For me, it was

4 enough, because I didn't eat even what I was given. I

5 would just eat once a day.

6 Q. Could you describe what the hygienic

7 conditions were like at the high school?

8 A. They were non-existent. We didn't have

9 anything. We had a WC toilet and that was all, and

10 cold water.

11 Q. Were you at the high school voluntarily or

12 did you have a choice?

13 A. I don't know what the choice would be. Of

14 course nobody was there voluntarily; all forcibly.

15 Q. Were you being guarded while you were at the

16 high school?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Who was guarding you?

19 A. We were guarded by soldiers. Some of them

20 wore police uniforms of the reserve police force, like

21 the uniform my husband used to wear. They had insignia

22 on their arms, three colours, in three colours, the

23 colour of the flag, and under that it said, in big,

24 large, white letters, it said "Police".

25 Q. You mentioned that your husband used to wear

Page 2524

1 a uniform like that. When he was shot and killed, was

2 he in uniform or in civilian clothes?

3 A. No, civilians clothes.

4 Q. The first night that you were in the high

5 school, did any soldiers come in and take girls out?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you recognise who those soldiers were?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who were they?

10 A. I recognised Janko Janjic, Tuta, Slavo

11 Ivanovic, and Gojko Jankovic.

12 Q. What did they do when they came in?

13 A. When they came, they told the girls and women

14 to go out. And they took them into another room,

15 whereas this one girl, Janko Janjic, Tuta, took her

16 off, and she didn't return the whole night.

17 Q. Looking at the sheet of paper before you,

18 could you tell us the numbers or the initials of the

19 girls who were taken out that first night?

20 A. 75, 87, 74, 95. That's it.

21 Q. And this was still July 3rd, right, the same

22 day the village was attacked in the morning?

23 A. Yes, but the evening, in the evening.

24 Q. Now, you mentioned the numbers of the four

25 girls who were taken out. Do you know where they were

Page 2525

1 taken?

2 A. When they came back, they told us they had

3 taken them to the adjacent room in the school building

4 and that they were raped there.

5 Q. Could you describe how these girls and women

6 looked when they were returned?

7 A. They looked sad. Some of them were crying.

8 Some of them, I don't know, they went all sort of rigid

9 and stony.

10 Q. And you mentioned that there was one in

11 particular that Tuta took and kept all night. What

12 number is she?

13 A. Yes. She's not on this list. Yes, 88. I

14 apologise. Number 88.

15 Q. How long were the other women and girls kept

16 away?

17 A. Well, it depended. Some one hour, some

18 longer. We didn't have any watches to be able to tell

19 exactly, but I know that they were not kept for long.

20 Q. How many days were you all kept at the high

21 school?

22 A. I don't know exactly. Something between

23 seven and ten days.

24 Q. During that time, did soldiers come again to

25 the high school?

Page 2526













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14 the French and English transcripts.













Page 2527

1 A. Less frequently afterwards. They would come,

2 but they didn't take out the women so frequently.

3 Q. Did they take out girls?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How frequently did they come? Was it every

6 night, every other night, during the day?

7 A. Number 87 and 88 were taken out frequently.

8 If not every day, then every other day.

9 Q. Who took them out?

10 A. Tuta was the one who took these two girls out

11 most often.

12 Q. Who were the other girls who were taken out

13 after the first night? Just give us their numbers,

14 please.

15 A. What do you mean? Numbers 87 and 88, as I

16 just told you.

17 Q. Were they the only girls who were ever taken

18 out after the first day, or were others taken out as

19 well?

20 A. While we were in the secondary school centre,

21 these two were taken out most often.

22 Q. Did any of the women or girls say that they

23 were ever hit for trying to refuse being forced to have

24 sex?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2528

1 Q. Could you give us the numbers of those girls?

2 A. Numbers 95, 75, 48.

3 Q. Was 105 also at the high school?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was she taken out?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was 74 also at the high school and taken out

8 by soldiers?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What did the girls tell you happened to them

11 if they tried to refuse?

12 A. What happened to them? They would be

13 beaten. Until they finally realised that they had to

14 accept, they had to be beaten.

15 Q. When these women and girls were returned to

16 the high school, how did they appear?

17 A. They were suffering; they were crying; they

18 were helpless.

19 Q. How did this make you feel?

20 A. I don't know how to describe it, how I felt.

21 It can't be described, how I felt. It was so hard for

22 me to watch all that.

23 Q. Did you also suffer?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you see any other physical abuse while

Page 2529

1 you were at the high school?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What did you see? And you don't need to give

4 us the name of anybody.

5 A. I saw, when this Vojvoda came, the one who

6 was forcing the men to kiss the cross, he beat an

7 elderly man, who was about 65. He kicked him in the

8 head, in the nose, in the chest, so that the man was

9 all bloody.

10 Q. Did this happen in the high school itself?

11 A. This was in the secondary school centre.

12 Q. Did you see it yourself?

13 A. Yes, I saw it myself because it was in the

14 room where all of us were, in our presence.

15 Q. Were you taken any place after this?

16 A. From the secondary school centre, do you

17 mean? Could you repeat the question, please.

18 Q. After the secondary school centre, where were

19 you taken?

20 A. To the Partizan Sports Hall.

21 Q. How were you taken there?

22 A. Two men in civilian clothes came and told us

23 that we should go outside. We went through the back

24 door, through the kitchen, not through the main door,

25 and we saw a truck covered with a canvas outside the

Page 2530

1 kitchen. They told us to get into that truck and they

2 drove us off to Partizan.

3 Q. Were you given a choice where to go?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did soldiers also come to Partizan and take

6 out women and girls?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How often?

9 A. Very often. Every day, every night.

10 Q. Did anybody ever try to stop them?

11 A. Yes, a man did try. I won't name him here.

12 But no one else.

13 Q. That man, was he a guard?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did any of the other guards try to stop the

16 soldiers from coming in?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Were you allowed to leave Partizan freely, on

19 your own?

20 A. Where would we go?

21 Q. Were you scared of leaving?

22 A. We were scared. We had no where to go. When

23 there were troops everywhere, there was no where to

24 go.

25 Q. Which women and girls were taken out during

Page 2531

1 the time you were in Partizan? Please just give us

2 their numbers.

3 A. Numbers 75, 87, DB, 50, 51, 95, 88, 105, 48,

4 74, 90, 189, and ZG.

5 Q. Now, you mentioned Number 51. Were there two

6 people by that name at Partizan with you?

7 A. Yes, the same first and last name. There

8 were two people with the same first and last name.

9 Q. The person who was taken out, was that the

10 mother of 50 or the other person with that name?

11 A. The mother.

12 Q. Did you recognise the soldiers who took them

13 out?

14 A. Some I recognised. I knew Janko Janjic,

15 Tuta; Gojko Jankovic; Zaga. But I didn't know all of

16 them.

17 Q. You mentioned Zaga. Do you know Zaga's full

18 name?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What is it?

21 A. Dragoljub Kunarac.

22 Q. How did you learn his name?

23 A. We learned his name because the women told us

24 that when they were taken away that he had his

25 soldiers, and I learned his name when he came to

Page 2532

1 Partizan because he introduced himself as such.

2 Q. How often did Zaga come to Partizan and take

3 women and girls out?

4 A. I saw Zaga several times, three or four

5 times. Not more than that.

6 Q. Do you remember a specific incident when Zaga

7 took girls out?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When was it?

10 A. This was when he took these four girls away

11 who did not come back again to Partizan. One came back

12 as we were about to leave, Number 50.

13 Q. Who were the other three girls who were taken

14 out by Zaga on that occasion?

15 A. Numbers 87, 75, and DB.

16 Q. When he took them out, was this around the

17 time that the Aladza mosque was destroyed?

18 A. As far as I could remember, that happened the

19 day after. That was when the girls were taken away.

20 Q. The day before Zaga took the girls away --

21 I'm sorry. Just going back to your answer previously.

22 Do you remember that precisely, or you only think that

23 it was around that time?

24 A. It was then.

25 Q. The day before Zaga took the girls away, did

Page 2533

1 anybody come to Partizan?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Who was it?

4 A. A reporter came from Brod. I had known her

5 from before. I can't remember her name now. She asked

6 us how we were, how we were being treated. Then these

7 girls got up and told her about their suffering. At

8 the end, she told them to keep quiet, because if they

9 speak about it, that they would be fucked and killed.

10 Q. Could you describe what this journalist

11 looked like?

12 A. Yes. She was of medium height, long fair

13 hair, a lot of make-up, high heels.

14 Q. And you said the next day, Zaga came. What

15 did he do?

16 A. Yes. Zaga came the next day and asked who

17 were the girls who had complained to this reporter that

18 they were being raped, that they were being beaten.

19 And then he approached -- while I was sitting next to

20 this person, 95, we were next to one another, she was

21 holding a baby in her lap of about a year and a half.

22 He slapped her. And then the person under 95, he took

23 out a knife and he pointed it at her daughter's neck,

24 and he said, "I'll slaughter you all." Then he got up

25 and called out, by name, Numbers 75, 87, DB, and 50,

Page 2534

1 and he took them away from Partizan.

2 After that, I don't know. I know that this

3 one person returned when we were about to leave on the

4 13th of August. She returned that day, she joined us.

5 Q. And that was 50; is that right?

6 A. Yes, yes, I said Number 50.

7 Q. When Zaga came to Partizan on that day, did

8 he use his name?

9 A. Zaga, yes. He said, "You will see who Zaga

10 is."

11 Q. Are you able to recognise Zaga today?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Would you please look around the courtroom

14 and let us know if you see him?

15 A. That one there [indicates]. Yes, I see him.

16 Q. Could you describe where he is sitting?

17 A. He's sitting -- how can I put it? As I am

18 looking, from the left, he is the second from the

19 left.

20 MS. KUO: May the record reflect that the

21 witness has identified the accused Dragan Kunarac.


23 MS. KUO:

24 Q. In March of 1998, did investigators from the

25 Tribunal ask you if you could identify Zaga?

Page 2535

1 A. I wasn't capable of identifying him then.

2 You know why? I was sick, I couldn't see too well, I

3 had high blood pressure. But I see him quite well

4 today. I see better now.

5 Q. Why do you see better now?

6 A. Because the doctors have helped me.

7 Q. In what way?

8 A. Because I am being treated. They prescribed

9 two pairs of glasses; one for reading, one for looking

10 at a distance. And I'm using them now and so I can see

11 better now.

12 Q. At the time that the investigators approached

13 you for a possible identification, had you seen Zaga on

14 television or in the newspaper?

15 A. No, no. I didn't watch. I didn't see him.

16 Q. Were you shown any photographs or were your

17 eyes too bad at that time?

18 A. My eyesight was bad. They did show me some

19 photographs, but it looked dark to me.

20 Q. You mentioned that you have glasses now, both

21 for reading and for looking at a distance. I notice

22 that you're not wearing your glasses right now.

23 A. I do wear them. They are in my pocket, but I

24 don't need them today. I really do see exceptionally

25 well today.

Page 2536

1 Q. So even without the aid of your glasses, you

2 are able to identify the person you knew as Zaga in

3 court?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you know a Dragan Gagovic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did he take women out of Partizan?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who did he take out?

10 A. Number 48 and Number 95.

11 Q. Do you know what happened to them?

12 A. Number 48, she told us that he had raped her,

13 whereas Number 95, she didn't say.

14 Q. Now, just going back for a moment to Zaga,

15 aside from the four girls that you mentioned him taking

16 out on one occasion, can you remember anyone else

17 specifically that he took out?

18 A. Well, you see, let these witnesses tell you

19 about that. I know that they were taken away.

20 However, I do not know specifically that Zaga took from

21 Partizan any single one that I personally saw, except

22 these four.

23 Q. But you did see him take people out on three

24 or four occasions; is that right?

25 A. Yes, yes. I saw him taking them out, but I

Page 2537













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14 the French and English transcripts.













Page 2538

1 don't know what he did to them over there. I saw him

2 come.

3 Q. Was there a time when you were ever told that

4 you were going to be taken for an exchange?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you recall when that was?

7 A. This was in mid-July.

8 Q. And who was being taken for exchange?

9 A. Before me, they took 16 men from the KP Dom

10 and 38 women, whereas the next day two cars came,

11 Dragan Gagovic and another policeman with cars with MUP

12 license plates. And in the first car, they took Number

13 75, 87 -- no, sorry, 87, DB, and their brother and

14 their mother.

15 Q. And you were in the second car?

16 A. Yes. In the second car there was me, a

17 person marked here as 74, her son, and a woman whose

18 name I don't know -- she had been with us in

19 Partizan -- and a journalist of the BBC. That's what

20 she said she was.

21 Q. Did that journalist speak your language?

22 A. No. She just said, "BBC", so we gathered

23 from that that she was a reporter for the BBC.

24 Q. Where were you taken in the two cars?

25 A. They took us to Cajnice.

Page 2539

1 Q. Where in Cajnice?

2 A. When we reached the mosque in Cajnice, there

3 were -- it was about nine or ten at night. When we

4 arrived in those cars, they told us to get out and to

5 get into another Kombi van that was full of tyres. We

6 did so, and then this reporter got on with us. They

7 came to tell her to get off. She wouldn't. She just

8 kept saying, "Foca, Gorazde." That is all she could

9 say. Then some others came to try and take her off,

10 and she had to get off and she went away. We didn't

11 see her again that night. And they took us to the

12 school in Cajnice.

13 Q. What did you do at the school?

14 A. When we arrived at the school, it was quite

15 late. We found the women who had been taken there the

16 day before, as well as the men from the KP Dom, 16 of

17 them. And we spent that night there.

18 Q. Without mentioning the names of the men you

19 saw from KP Dom, could you tell us how they looked?

20 A. They were skinny; they were quiet. One could

21 tell that they had suffered a lot.

22 Q. The next day what happened?

23 A. The next day, when we got up, two Serb women

24 came, in the morning. They brought us two pots of milk

25 and they gave everyone a glassful. Then they brought

Page 2540

1 us coffee, and to the older people, of course, they

2 gave coffee. Then they brought sweets, sacks of

3 sweets, boxes of cigarettes. We were really hungry and

4 we had a good meal then.

5 After that this journalist came and she was

6 crying. She kept stroking the children on their

7 heads. All this was filmed. I don't think that the

8 journalist was doing the filming. She didn't have any

9 equipment on her.

10 After that a man appeared in the door with a

11 Subara and a cockade on it, that is, a large fur cap.

12 His name was Kornjaca; he was a doctor. He greeted

13 us. He climbed up on a bench and he said, "I had

14 brought you here to exchange you and to send you to

15 your own territory but your Muslims don't want you.

16 They say they don't need you." He said, "You have to

17 go back to Foca again," and that's what happened.

18 Q. You mentioned that when you were eating this

19 was being filmed. Who was filming you?

20 A. Yes. The Serbs. I don't know who they were;

21 I don't know their names.

22 Q. Was this the first real meal you had since

23 being captured?

24 A. Yes. A real meal, yes.

25 Q. What did you think was happening that day?

Page 2541

1 A. First we thought we would be exchanged, and

2 we were expecting some good fortune. Then this man

3 came, and it became clear to us when they took off the

4 journalist, when they wouldn't let her go with us, we

5 assumed that nothing would come of it.

6 Q. Do you know why they gave you such a good

7 meal and sacks of candy and cigarettes?

8 A. I don't know. I think that this was meant

9 for the public, to show them how well we were.

10 Q. Where did you go when you were taken back

11 from Cajnice?

12 A. On the way back from Cajnice, we all got into

13 a bus and we reached the KP Dom in Donje Polje. The

14 bus stopped, and then a man appeared who was in charge

15 of the KP Dom in Foca, in the doorway, and he said,

16 "You see, nothing's wrong with you. I have been

17 accused of having my hands bloodstained up to

18 the elbows." He had a piece of paper in his hand. He

19 called out the names of men two by two. They got off

20 the bus. Other people were taking them to the KP Dom.

21 Then after some 20 minutes or half an hour,

22 they would come to fetch the next two, until all of the

23 men were taken into the KP Dom. We were driven by bus

24 back to Partizan again.

25 Q. You mentioned that you saw the man who was in

Page 2542

1 charge of KP Dom. Did you know who that was?

2 A. I do know. I can't remember his name just

3 now. I know he comes from Belene. He's quite a close

4 neighbour.

5 Q. So you know his name.

6 A. The surname is Krnojelac. I can't remember

7 the name just now.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, break time.

9 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will have our break

11 now and resume the proceedings at 1130 hours.

12 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution is continuing

15 with examination-in-chief.

16 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Witness, before the break, we had discussed

18 your eyesight very briefly, and you mentioned that your

19 eyesight was good today, you could see without your

20 glasses. Is that right?

21 A. Yes, especially today.

22 Q. Why especially today?

23 A. I don't really know why. I can't say

24 myself. But I just see well.

25 Q. In fact, when you were reading from the piece

Page 2543

1 of paper in front of you, you didn't have to use your

2 reading glasses, as you normally would; is that right?

3 A. Yes, that's right. But I've taken them with

4 me because I didn't think I'd be able to see without

5 them but ...

6 Q. You mentioned that you had high blood

7 pressure. What relationship is there between your high

8 blood pressure and your eyesight?

9 A. Yes, I do. When my blood pressure is high, I

10 don't see very well because it's my fundus pressure in

11 the eyes, and that is why I was prescribed glasses for

12 reading and -- two pairs of glasses; one for reading,

13 one for distance.

14 Q. Were you also prescribed medicine to reduce

15 your blood pressure?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So when you take your blood pressure

18 medicine, does your eyesight get better?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I'm going to ask you to look in the courtroom

21 and point out anyone else, other than Zaga, whom you've

22 already identified, if you see anybody in the courtroom

23 that you saw during the war.

24 A. I can't see. I didn't know anybody else

25 except Zaga.

Page 2544

1 Q. Now, returning very briefly to the high

2 school. You mentioned that your group was taken to the

3 high school on the 3rd of July, the same day you were

4 captured; right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Was there another group that was brought to

7 the high school a few days later, on the 5th of July?

8 A. Yes. Yes, there was.

9 Q. How big was that group?

10 A. Well, I couldn't give you a precise answer,

11 but there were about ten people including children.

12 Q. Referring to the list before you, do you

13 remember who was in that second group?

14 A. Yes. Number 50, and then there were two

15 other individuals; 51, she has the same name and

16 surname, 51, and 95. That's all.

17 Q. And then other people whose names are not on

18 the list; is that right?

19 A. Yes. Yes.

20 Q. Did you know who was in charge of the high

21 school when you were there?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Who was it?

24 A. I knew him from before the war. It was --

25 let me just have a look. I think I've got his name.

Page 2545

1 Mitar Sipcic.

2 Q. What did you see him do at the high school?

3 A. I saw him representing himself as being in

4 front of all the army that was there.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic.

6 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

7 I should like to ask -- I'm not quite sure, but did the

8 witness take a piece of paper out of her pocket and

9 read out the name of the individual she has just told

10 us? I couldn't see from here.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

12 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Would you like to have a look

14 at the piece of paper?

15 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your

16 Honour. I was just interested whether this actually

17 truly did happen, because how did the witness know to

18 take a piece of paper with her?

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecutor.

20 MS. KUO:

21 Q. Witness, why did you look at a piece of paper

22 in your pocket?

23 A. Well, you know, I looked because I often

24 forget. I often forget a name. And I know the

25 journalist's name as well, but I just can't remember it

Page 2546

1 at present, and that's why I took it with me.

2 Q. And the piece of paper that you looked at,

3 did you write the name on that paper?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. When did you do that?

6 A. I did that this morning, on my way here.

7 Q. Why, in particular, did you put his name

8 down?

9 A. Because I forget it. I don't always think of

10 it. That's the only reason.

11 Q. Did we meet very briefly in preparation for

12 your testimony today? Did we meet yesterday?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did I ask you this person's name yesterday?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were you able to remember it yesterday?

17 A. I wasn't able to immediately, but I

18 remembered afterwards, after a little time had gone by.

19 Q. And did you think you would forget it today?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is that why you wrote the name down on the

22 paper?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What did you see Mitar Sipcic do at the high

25 school?

Page 2547

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Since we have a piece of paper

2 to which the witness referred to, can we have it

3 produced?

4 MS. KUO: Very well, Your Honour. Could we

5 have the usher take the piece of paper and have it

6 produced. I'm not sure if the Court is asking for it

7 to be entered into evidence or just shown.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Just identify it.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Usher, could you get the paper

10 from the witness. Give it to counsel to look at it.

11 Can you show it to the Defence counsel as well.

12 Can it be numbered for identification

13 purposes only. I would also like to see it, Madam

14 Registrar.

15 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] For

16 identification purposes, this will be marked D206.

17 Sorry, P206.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we proceed, please.

19 MS. KUO: Perhaps that paper can be returned

20 to the witness for a moment.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Yes, it can be returned

22 to the witness for the moment, but it will be retained

23 by the registrar.

24 Prosecution counsel, we've dealt with that

25 paper. It's got an ID number. Would you like her to

Page 2548













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Page 2549

1 continue referring to it whilst she's giving evidence?

2 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour, I will.


4 MS. KUO:

5 Q. Witness, in addition to Mitar Sipcic's name,

6 what other names did you write on that paper?

7 A. I noted down the journalist's name whom I

8 knew before the war, because as I say, I forget names

9 very quickly and that's why I made a note of them. And

10 as far as Mitar Sipcic is concerned, I knew him before

11 the war. He worked in the Sipad Maglic factory, in the

12 laboratory for blood samples and so on. So this is not

13 something I don't know. It's just that I -- it slips

14 my mind.

15 Q. And looking at the paper now, do you remember

16 the name of the female journalist who came to Partizan?

17 A. Tanja Vreco.

18 Q. And to return to Mitar Sipcic, what did you

19 see him do at the high school?

20 A. When we came to the secondary school centre,

21 they all told us to go down to the ground-floor level

22 where there was a big hall with lots of chairs in it,

23 and they held a sort of speech there. I didn't

24 understand any of that because I wasn't really

25 interested; that we had to listen, that we had to

Page 2550

1 respect what was said. That's what I saw of him in the

2 secondary school centre.

3 I saw him on a number of occasions. I saw

4 that he was the number one man there. That's what I

5 personally assumed.

6 Q. Do you know what kind of official position he

7 held, if any?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Now, returning to Partizan, you mentioned

10 that there was a night when the Aladza mosque was blown

11 up. Do you remember the exact date that was?

12 A. It was on the 2nd of August.

13 Q. Were you able to feel an explosion?

14 A. Yes. The ceiling started falling on top of

15 us and the children started screaming, and we were

16 afraid too.

17 Q. And when this happened, the four girls, DB,

18 75, 87, and 50, were they with you in Partizan or had

19 they already been taken out?

20 A. They were taken out afterwards, after that,

21 but I don't know the exact date and I don't suppose

22 they do either.

23 Q. Do you remember specifically that they were

24 inside the Partizan with you, or could they have been

25 somewhere else when the mosque was blown up?

Page 2551

1 A. Well, it's like this: I'm not sure whether

2 they were taken away anywhere, but they hadn't been

3 taken out by Zaga on that occasion. They would be

4 taken out, brought back, and so on. This was a regular

5 occurrence. It occurred every day, through the night.

6 Q. Could you describe the living conditions at

7 Partizan, what you had to eat, the hygienic conditions

8 and so forth?

9 A. As far as hygiene is concerned, there weren't

10 any hygienic conditions. We didn't have anything. We

11 just had cold water in the toilet. And we had some

12 mattresses, but they were very short and hard and we

13 lay on them. We didn't have any blankets, we didn't

14 have anything else. And as far as the food is

15 concerned, we did have food but it had gone bad. It

16 was all mixed up. It was beans and rice and macaroni,

17 which you couldn't really use as food properly, and we

18 didn't even have that sometimes. Once, we would get

19 one meal in two days, so it was really terrible.

20 Q. Aside from the women and girls being taken

21 out, where there other incidents of violence that

22 occurred inside Partizan?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Without mentioning names, could you describe

25 them for us, please?

Page 2552

1 A. I can describe this incident, but I don't

2 know the date again, I don't remember, I don't know

3 when it was. We heard shooting down around the SUP, or

4 MUP, or whatever you want to call it. It was the

5 police station. We heard a shot there. And a man of

6 medium height came, carrying a rifle. He went into the

7 Partizan and said that if any of us moved, he would

8 kill us all. He threatened us, so that he was there

9 for a short time.

10 And the individual who helped us came. Along

11 with threats that they would kill them, that she

12 shouldn't go up to him -- to her, and she managed to

13 convince him and went up to him and took him off for a

14 cup of coffee. And she said to him, "They won't go

15 anywhere. Where would she go? They haven't got

16 anywhere to go or to go out. Let's go and have a cup

17 of coffee and then we'll come back." So she managed to

18 take him away, and he didn't return. But I personally

19 didn't know that man. I saw that his hand was bloody.

20 Q. You said a person was protecting you. Was

21 that a woman?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What did you know about her?

24 A. I know that she was fairly good to us while

25 we were in Partizan. She was helpful.

Page 2553

1 Q. Was she a Serb woman?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did she live near Partizan?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did she know any of the people detained in

6 Partizan or was she simply helping you as strangers?

7 A. I don't know that she knew anyone, but all of

8 us there came to understand that she was a good human

9 being, good heart.

10 Q. In what way did she help you and protect you?

11 A. First of all, she helped us. In Partizan, we

12 did have some light, but she told us not to switch the

13 lights on, that we weren't allowed to switch the lights

14 on. And then she would come in the evening on several

15 occasions to sit with us when these people came to take

16 away the women. And I remember one point in particular

17 when he said, "Where are you, you balija women?" He

18 swore at us in that way, and she would respond with the

19 same swear words that he used for me. And he -- and

20 then they swore at her and told her to get up, and when

21 she came in front of him, when she stood before him and

22 he saw who she was, then she said, "Why, why have you

23 come? What do you want with these women here, with

24 these people here? It's not -- nothing is their

25 fault."

Page 2554

1 And so after that incident, that person went

2 off, and he left us in peace that night. And this

3 happened on several occasions. She helped us in that

4 sort of way on a number of occasions.

5 Q. The person you're referring to as "he", do

6 you know who that person was?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Was that the same -- that was not the same

9 person as the one who came in shooting; is that right?

10 A. No. No.

11 Q. When the man came in with the gun shooting,

12 did any of the guards come and protect you or try to

13 get him to leave?

14 A. No. Just that person, this woman.

15 Q. Did any of the guards help you women at all?

16 A. No. No. Just one, and I don't want to

17 mention his name now. But the others didn't.

18 Q. The person who did help you, what kinds of

19 things did he do to help you?

20 A. Well, you know what he did? We noticed on

21 him that whatever he could do to help, he helped. He

22 would stand at the door and when he was able to turn

23 away some of the men who had come to get the girls, he

24 would turn them away. He helped us personally to leave

25 as well.

Page 2555

1 Q. Did you ever go to complain to anybody about

2 what was happening to you in Partizan?

3 A. Yes. We went to MUP, to the police station,

4 to complain. We went there. They didn't allow us to

5 enter. There were benches in front of the MUP and they

6 told us to sit and wait there. We sat there for a long

7 time, they wouldn't let us go inside, and then a

8 policeman finally came out and told us that we would

9 have to leave.

10 Q. So were you able to actually complain to

11 anyone at the police station?

12 A. No.

13 Q. But were you able to tell anyone at the

14 police station where you had come from and your purpose

15 for being there?

16 A. No.

17 Q. When were you finally released from

18 Partizan?

19 A. On the 13th of August, 1992.

20 Q. How were you able to leave?

21 A. He told us, the man I spoke about earlier

22 on --

23 Q. The guard, you mean?

24 A. -- that the children should be washed. Yes,

25 I'm thinking of the guard who helped us. He told us to

Page 2556

1 get the children clean and that we would be leaving the

2 next morning, but we didn't go early the next morning.

3 We saw the buses leave; we saw them because that's

4 where the main road is. It passes by the Partizan

5 building. Four buses left, and they collected the

6 people from Donje Polje, from the Grille, in front of

7 the Zelengora Hotel, there were people there. So we

8 stayed again, we stayed on.

9 Then the guard came and told us to go outside

10 and that nobody was to return into the Partizan Sports

11 Hall, but that we mustn't tell anybody that we had been

12 allowed to go out. So he went to MUP and asked for a

13 bus for us, to transport us from that place, and they

14 told him at the police station that there was no

15 driver, that they didn't have a bus available. So he

16 came back to us. He checked whether we had gone back

17 into the Partizan Sports Hall or not.

18 We saw that he wanted to help us, so we

19 listened to him. We did everything he told us to do

20 because he was that kind of man. He was very humane.

21 Then he himself went back to the police station, to the

22 MUP, and they promised to give him a driver; they

23 promised to provide him with a bus. He came back to

24 the Partizan to tell us this, to say that he had found

25 a bus and a driver but that they didn't have any fuel.

Page 2557

1 Then he went down to the MUP again. And

2 that's what he told us, that from the Sipad Maglic

3 Factory, they promised to give them fuel and to tank up

4 for us to be able to be transported. And that's what

5 happened.

6 We stood in front of the Partizan Sports Hall

7 all the time, until two men arrived. They gave us the

8 permits, and I think the Tribunal has these permits and

9 the papers I gave, copies of them.

10 Later on, I think it was about 1.00 or 1.30,

11 the bus arrived, we all got in, and they took us off to

12 Montenegro, to Scepan Polje. We were escorted by the

13 police. Then they came back from the border and we

14 crossed over to Titograd, where we were put up in a

15 mosque that night. We spent the night there, and the

16 next day they gathered us up again and transported us

17 to Novi Pazar.

18 Q. You mentioned that you had an exit permit.

19 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I

20 would like to have the witness shown what was marked

21 for identification as Exhibit 74, showing her the

22 second page, which is the B/C/S version.

23 Q. Witness, are you able to see this? I

24 understand the copying is not 100 per cent good.

25 A. Yes. Yes.

Page 2558

1 Q. What is that? What is that that you were

2 just shown?

3 A. This document said that we were leaving Foca

4 of our own free will, and you can see that written on

5 the document.

6 Q. The document has your name on it; is that

7 right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The date is August 13th, 1992 and it's signed

10 by Dragan Gagovic; right?

11 A. Yes.

12 MS. KUO: The Prosecution enters into

13 evidence Exhibit 74.


15 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes. It is

16 Exhibit P74, and it is tendered under seal.

17 MS. KUO:

18 Q. Witness, as a result of everything you

19 endured from July 3rd until August 13th, 1992, how did

20 you suffer physically?

21 A. Well, I had a lot wrong with me, and I was

22 given a lot. My blood vessels are disturbed; I have

23 blood pressure; I have heart troubles. When they hit

24 me, my collarbone was broken. You can see this with

25 the naked eye. So that my health -- were it not for

Page 2559













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Page 2560

1 the doctors, I don't know what I'd do.

2 Q. How did you suffer emotionally?

3 A. Well, I suffered -- I went through a great

4 deal, and it's very difficult for me to even describe

5 what I felt and all the things that I went through and

6 suffered.

7 Q. As you watched the women and girls being

8 taken out from the high school and from Partizan and

9 the state in which they were returned, how did that

10 make you feel?

11 A. We all felt bad. I felt very bad, seeing how

12 they would come in helpless. And we sort of shared

13 this sorrow and the tragedy with them.

14 Q. Were you also scared?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. While you were at the high school and at

17 Partizan, did you consider them to be detention centres

18 or collection centres?

19 A. Well, I don't know how to describe them. It

20 was a collection centre where we were mistreated, where

21 women were raped, where you didn't have any hygienic

22 conditions, you didn't have any food. Well, I can't

23 imagine that it was a collection centre of any kind.

24 All it was was a camp.

25 Q. Did you feel like it was a detention centre?

Page 2561

1 A. Yes.

2 MS. KUO: Your Honours, I don't know whether

3 I had entered Exhibit 205 formally in evidence. But if

4 not, I wish to do that now.

5 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes. It is

6 Exhibit P205, and it has been tendered under seal.

7 MS. KUO: The Prosecution has no further

8 questions.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination by the

10 Defence. Yes. I don't know who wants to begin. It's

11 up to you.

12 Mr. Kolesar.

13 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

14 with your permission, we should like to change the

15 order of the cross-examination.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

17 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] So that I would

18 begin, and then Mr. Jovanovic, and finally

19 Ms. Pilipovic. I hope that this is acceptable.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: As you please. It is

21 acceptable. Please go ahead.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Kolesar:

23 Q. Good day to you, madam.

24 A. Good day.

25 Q. I should like to ask you how many times you

Page 2562

1 gave statements to the investigators of the

2 International Tribunal.

3 A. I gave them, as far as I know, once.

4 Q. And this was in February 1996.

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Could the

7 witness be shown her statement in

8 Serbo-Croatian/Bosnian, and the English version, so

9 that the witness may identify those statements. We

10 have copies and the Trial Chamber also has copies.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have them marked for

12 identification, please.

13 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] It will be

14 marked D45, and it would be tendered under seal or

15 marked under seal.

16 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Is that your statement?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I didn't quite

21 understand Madam Registrar. Is that now just marked as

22 an exhibit, or has it been tendered into evidence? I

23 would submit that it be tendered. I should like to

24 tender it.

25 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Well, it is

Page 2563

1 up to the Chamber to decide whether this exhibit is

2 admitted as an exhibit.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection from the

4 Prosecution to the admission of this statement as part

5 of the evidence, of the record?

6 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, it will be tendered into

8 evidence.

9 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you very

10 much.

11 Q. In your statement, and also today, you said

12 that before the war you noticed that relations between

13 neighbours, Serbs and Muslims, had become strained.

14 Could you explain a little when in time did you begin

15 to notice that, and if you could elaborate on that a

16 little. When you said that you didn't visit one

17 another, was that the change that occurred, or did the

18 change take any other form?

19 A. Well, you see, we noticed, towards the end of

20 1991, that something strange was happening, that there

21 were no contacts. I had Serb neighbours who never had

22 any celebration without us being present. But I

23 noticed that we avoided one another, that there were no

24 contacts, and everything became clear. Later on they

25 told us that they didn't dare come and visit us, and

Page 2564

1 everything became clear to us then.

2 Q. I understood that part of what you said

3 earlier on. But I'm asking did the changes manifest

4 themselves in any other ways? Were national parties

5 formed, like the SDS and the SDA? And did those

6 relations begin to be strained even before the

7 formation of those parties, or later?

8 A. You see, I don't understand political

9 things. There was the SDS and the SDA, that is

10 understandable, and probably things started with that.

11 Why didn't it begin earlier? We were good neighbours

12 with the Serbs and I thought they were my friends, as

13 close as a brother of mine, the only one I have. And

14 I'm sure it's politics that was behind it all. But I

15 wasn't involved in politics, so I'm unable to tell

16 you.

17 Q. Well, of course you will tell me as much as

18 you know?

19 A. I am telling the truth. As I said about this

20 man who helped me, I want to testify correctly. And I

21 wouldn't say anything about Mr. Zaga if I didn't know.

22 Only what I know, and I'm telling the truth.

23 Q. One further point in this context. How did

24 you come to the conclusion, when workers started to be

25 laid off, it wasn't a termination of employment but

Page 2565

1 people stopped working and they didn't receive their

2 salaries? And you said there were more Muslims laid

3 off than Serbs. How did you come to that conclusion?

4 A. I know personally from my neighbourhood no

5 one was working. There wasn't any work. Now, why and

6 who did this, I can't give you an answer.

7 Q. Will you please wait a moment after you hear

8 my question, because I have to switch off my

9 microphone. This is also in your interest, because if

10 I don't switch off the microphone, then your voice will

11 not be distorted, and we don't want that to happen.

12 A. I'm not afraid of the truth, let me tell

13 you. I wanted to be protected, but I could have just

14 as easily not have been protected.

15 Q. It is my duty to tell you this because it is

16 in your interest.

17 A. Thank you anyway.

18 Q. You said that the war in Foca started on the

19 8th of February and you heard the shooting and

20 shelling? No, I meant the 8th of April. That was a

21 slip of the tongue.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can Foca or Brod on the Drina be seen from

24 your village?

25 A. Yes, it can be seen, because we weren't -- I

Page 2566

1 don't know how familiar you are with my village, but I

2 know that we could see it.

3 Q. In view of the distance, it's some ten

4 kilometres, isn't it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you hear the shooting?

7 A. Yes. When the houses were burning, also you

8 can see it, you can see the flame.

9 Q. The houses in Foca?

10 A. In the surrounding villages. In Foca too.

11 Q. What kind of shooting was it? Who was

12 shooting at who?

13 A. How do I know, when I wasn't in Foca?

14 Q. Could you hear, on the mass media, who was

15 fighting who?

16 A. We heard on the media, on Serb Radio, when

17 Foca fell and that Srbinje was under the Serb's

18 control. That is what we heard. We couldn't hear

19 anything else.

20 Q. But in the course of the fighting, until the

21 radio was taken over, who had control of the radio?

22 A. What do you mean?

23 Q. Who had control of the radio?

24 A. Well, everybody. How long did the war

25 last? Eight days. After eight days, Foca fell.

Page 2567

1 Q. Very well. But until the radio fell, what

2 kind of programme could you listen to?

3 A. Well, the Bosnian and the Yugoslav. It was

4 the former Yugoslavia until Foca fell, until the war

5 started.

6 Q. When was the news carried that the young

7 policeman was killed? Was this before the radio was

8 taken over by the Serbs or after it?

9 A. Before.

10 Q. Do you know how he was killed?

11 A. I didn't see it, but I heard that when he was

12 trying to save a Serb woman, that he was hit and killed

13 on the bridge.

14 Q. Do you know who was here with him on patrol?

15 A. I don't know.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, could you restrict

17 your cross-examination to what is relevant to the

18 indictment. The armed conflict is admitted, so we're

19 not interested in the details of the armed conflict.

20 Please stick to what is relevant to the indictment,

21 will you?

22 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

23 Honour, I will do as you suggest. But I must point out

24 that the armed conflict was an undisputed fact between

25 ethnic Serbs and ethnic Muslims, but until now that

Page 2568

1 entire armed conflict is being depicted in a one-sided

2 way; that on the one side, we have the Serb aggressors,

3 and on the other, the Bosniaks or Muslims

4 empty-handed. And through the cross-examination, I'm

5 trying to correct that impression. If that is not

6 allowed, I will not continue my questions along those

7 lines.

8 JUDGE HUNT: We're not here to determine who

9 started it. We're not here to determine who is at

10 fault. We are here to determine what happened in the

11 course of this armed conflict, which has been

12 admitted. What is the point of all of this that you're

13 cross-examining on?

14 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] The point of my

15 cross-examination, apart from -- trying to call in

16 question the credibility of the witness, who is talking

17 about the parties to the conflict in a one-sided

18 manner.

19 JUDGE HUNT: That's a completely different

20 issue to the one you raised earlier, Mr. Kolesar. But

21 so far as it goes to the ethnicity of this particular

22 witness, I think that you may proceed upon the

23 assumption that we will assume that she has got a

24 one-sided view of it. Does it matter?

25 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, of

Page 2569

1 course it is up to you to judge the credibility of the

2 witness, but on the basis of the facts and evidence

3 produced. But I do not wish to pursue the matter

4 further. If I may, I should like to continue with the

5 cross.

6 JUDGE HUNT: As long as you understand this,

7 Mr. Kolesar: Certainly, the motives of a witness are

8 relevant, but the material you have been raising in

9 cross-examination goes beyond the reasonable limits of

10 any cross-examination directed to credit. So let's get

11 on with the facts of the case that are alleged against

12 your client and deal with those.

13 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Very well, Your

14 Honour, though in addition to the actual charges

15 against my client, there are general allegations in the

16 indictment which are part of the indictment as a

17 whole. But if I may, I shall move on.

18 Q. You said that the Serbs came to your village

19 in June and asked you to surrender your weapons?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know how many pieces of weapons were

22 surrendered?

23 A. No.

24 Q. You said that your husband was a reserve

25 policeman and that he surrendered his automatic rifle

Page 2570













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14 the French and English transcripts.













Page 2571

1 and a pistol for which he had a license?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. According to data at our disposal and on the

4 basis of testimony of other witnesses, it emerges that

5 both uniforms and weapons had been taken away from the

6 reserve police and the reserve military men.

7 A. No, that is not true. The reserve policemen

8 still had their weapons, so my husband's weapon was not

9 seized from him earlier.

10 Q. Are you aware who is Senad Hasimpasic, known

11 as Seja?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Your house, how far is it from the road, as

14 you told us today that you would see those trucks with

15 soldiers passing by?

16 A. I didn't say that they passed below my house,

17 but I saw them when they went towards Scepan Polje. We

18 could watch the column. We could easily see them.

19 Q. I didn't quite understand. Did you see that

20 from in front of your house or from some other spot?

21 A. No, no, in front of my house, one could

22 clearly see them. Buk Bijela. There's a bridge being

23 built from Sutelovo [phoen]. Then there was a bridge,

24 and we could watch these columns of trucks going in

25 that direction.

Page 2572

1 Q. Please don't misunderstand me. I do not wish

2 to hurt you or to remind you of painful events, but I

3 would like to ask you about something that is not very

4 logical in your statement linked to the event of the

5 3rd. When you said that your husband was hit in the

6 chest, but you don't know exactly when because you were

7 behind him.

8 A. Yes, I was two metres behind him.

9 Q. If we resort to logic, you were fleeing, he

10 was in front of you, you were behind him?

11 A. You see, we were all fleeing, not just my

12 husband and I. We were surrounded. My husband was

13 hit. We all stopped. He was killed. We saw him roll

14 down the slope. It was steep. We stayed there. After

15 that, this other person was hit, who also fell down.

16 But I didn't see with precision the spot where he was

17 hit. I can't analyse this in detail. When I saw he

18 was hit, I could hardly see him roll down. I was --

19 Q. I apologise. That was not my question. If

20 one is fleeing, then it is logical that he should be

21 hit in the back and not in the chest.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: No, Mr. Kolesar, don't confuse

23 the witness. She has said they were surrounded, so

24 don't confuse the witness.

25 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I apologise.

Page 2573

1 That was not my intention, to confuse the witness. I

2 find it very hard even to put such a question,

3 especially. I had not intended to confuse the witness

4 or to insist on a fact which is, after all, not all

5 that relevant.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: You can now see that some of

7 your questions are irrelevant.

8 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your

9 Honour.

10 Q. Shall we go on with the questions related to

11 the road and the passing of troops. As the road was

12 close to your house, did you know that in the period of

13 the end of May and June, there were certain incidents

14 on the road, that people ran into mines and so on?

15 A. No, I don't know that.

16 Q. That on one occasion, a large number of

17 soldiers were killed, among whom a certain number of

18 Serbs from your own village of Mjesaja?

19 A. Let me answer that question too. We were

20 closer down. Our men were not involved in the fighting

21 or in any operations, and this was near Prajdelo.

22 Q. And I just have a few more questions. How

23 many houses were there in your village, and families?

24 A. Thirty-five houses, households, and about 150

25 members of the households; not exactly, of course, but

Page 2574

1 thereabouts. Thirty-five houses exactly, and about 150

2 family members of those people in those houses

3 altogether.

4 Q. [No interpretation]

5 A. As far as our village is concerned, the

6 nearest house was a house owned by a Serb. (redacted)

7 (redacted). His name was (redacted).

8 And further off, there was Belene, Mjesaja,

9 Prijedrozlje [phoen]. These were the surrounding ones,

10 but our particular village was in the middle of all

11 these others.

12 Q. [No interpretation]

13 A. How do you mean? In my village personally?

14 Q. Yes, in your village.

15 A. Well, in my particular village, and there

16 were hamlets round about, it was all very near, there

17 was just this [name redacted],

18 (redacted). And further off,

19 not very far off, but if we look at Sino Kos [phoen],

20 that was not very far off from the Muslim houses, about

21 100 or 200 metres away. If I look at Prijedrozlje,

22 Mjesaja, it was always -- it was near. But there

23 wasn't a house right next to mine.

24 Q. Well, let's look at Mjesaja and Trosanj and

25 all these hamlets round about. How many were Muslim

Page 2575

1 houses; how many Serb?

2 A. Well, I don't really know, I couldn't tell

3 you. But in my village, there were 35 houses. From

4 Mjesaja, from the road, the Muslim houses, right up to

5 the top of Trosanj, there were 35 houses. And the

6 Serbs, well, I didn't really count them. I couldn't

7 really say. I do apologise, but I can't give you an

8 exact number.

9 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I have no

10 further questions. Thank you.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: The next counsel, please.

12 Mr. Jovanovic, go ahead.

13 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

14 Honour. Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic:

16 Q. Good morning, madam.

17 A. Good morning.

18 Q. On the morning you were in the woods and you

19 were attacked, do you remember how you were dressed?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you describe that for us, please.

22 A. Well, I had a tracksuit that belonged to my

23 son. I had jeans on --

24 Q. I apologise for interrupting but I just want

25 to know what you were wearing.

Page 2576

1 A. A tracksuit belonging to my son, and I had a

2 sort of black jumper on, pullover.

3 Q. Thank you. If I understand you correctly,

4 and I think I listened to what you said carefully, when

5 you were taken prisoner, you and the members of your

6 family and your sons were seriously injured, beaten.

7 And on the occasion your collarbone was broken.

8 A. Yes, and you can see that with your own

9 eyes.

10 Q. Yes. Thank you. Can you give us a time

11 frame, that is to say, the time from the moment you

12 were hit, when your collarbone was broken, up until the

13 moment you reached Buk Bijela? How much time elapsed?

14 A. Yes, I can tell you that. I can determine

15 that very well. It was up there, when they beat us,

16 and when this individual said, "Why are you beating my

17 younger son --"

18 Q. Could you just tell us how much time went

19 by. Half an hour, one hour?

20 A. About 20 minutes. It was at that same place

21 up there.

22 Q. Do we understand each other: From the moment

23 you were hit, up until the moment you arrived in Buk

24 Bijela, 20 minutes went by.

25 A. No. From the time that I -- I apologise. I

Page 2577

1 didn't understand your question. I thought you were

2 asking me when I was hit up there, when they were

3 there. But I was hit, I was beaten, I think it was --

4 we arrived in Buk Bijela an hour later. From that

5 place, one hour later.

6 Q. How much time went by from the moment you

7 arrived in Buk Bijela up until the time you were called

8 by Janko Janjic to be interviewed, questioned?

9 A. I didn't look at --

10 Q. I know you didn't look at your watch, yes, I

11 know that very well. But could you just give us a

12 rough idea?

13 A. Well, when we arrived in Buk Bijela, about 20

14 minutes went by, and then they started calling us out

15 to be questioned.

16 Q. Did anybody give you any assistance of any

17 kind?

18 A. No.

19 Q. When Janko Janjic called you out and when you

20 entered the room, what did you have to take off

21 yourself?

22 A. I had to take everything off, all my

23 clothing.

24 Q. I'm interested in hearing how you were able

25 to do this if your collarbone had been broken.

Page 2578

1 A. Well, I did it any way I could. There were

2 injured people there who were not wounded in the head,

3 but they nevertheless had to do what they were

4 ordered.

5 Q. So was your collarbone actually fractured?

6 A. Yes, and you can see with the -- it can be

7 seen with the naked eye. And I took my clothes off

8 with my other hand.

9 Q. You took your pullover off over your head.

10 A. Well, yes, it was a black jumper that was

11 buttoned up. So I unbuttoned it and took it off this

12 way [indicates] and used my hand, and that's what I did

13 when I went into that room.

14 Q. When were you given first aid treatment for

15 your collarbone?

16 A. Never, for all the time I was there, until I

17 returned, until I went to Pazar.

18 Q. So the bone grew back together again on its

19 own.

20 A. Yes, and you can see that. Nobody helped me,

21 and you can still see the way it's grown back together

22 on its own.

23 Q. I now have another question for you. Today,

24 when you gave your testimony here, you said that you

25 went from Buk Bijela to Foca by bus.

Page 2579

1 A. One bus, yes.

2 Q. One bus. I see. When you arrived in Foca,

3 you went to stand in front of the SUP building; is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. And you were in the bus all the time

7 otherwise.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. On that occasion, you said that you were able

10 to see the extent to which Foca had been destroyed. It

11 is page 27 of the LiveNote. We can check it.

12 A. Not while I was standing there. We also

13 looked out of the window while we were in the bus, how

14 it was destroyed. We also saw this when we went to

15 Cajnice for the exchange and when we were returned and

16 when we were in front of the KP Dom. We saw all the

17 ruins. And at night we saw them burning the Muslim

18 houses and so on.

19 Q. I'm just asking you this because you said

20 something else today. You're now changing your

21 testimony, today's testimony. I don't mind, you can

22 change it, but I was interested in this part.

23 A. No, I did not change anything. I said that I

24 saw the ruins. I saw it on the way there. Of course,

25 I didn't get out of the bus for me to be able to see

Page 2580

1 outside the bus. I understand why you're asking the

2 question.

3 Q. Well, yes, thank you, madam, for your

4 understanding.

5 When you identified the individual whom, if I

6 have noted it down correctly, was named Krnojelac --

7 and he was in charge of the KP Dom, was he not? Is

8 that correct? Am I right?

9 A. Yes. Yes, but I couldn't remember the name.

10 Q. Well, nor could I. You said you knew him

11 very well.

12 A. Yes, I knew him before the war.

13 Q. I think that you said that he was from a

14 village close by to yours and that that's why you knew

15 him.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Are we speaking about the same place which is

18 called Belene?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Are you sure that he is from that village?

21 A. Yes. Yes, his origins are from that

22 village.

23 Q. Are you sure that he lived in that village?

24 A. Well, it's like this: I don't know where he

25 went to live afterwards, but I know that that was

Page 2581

1 where -- that he was born in Belene and that his people

2 were from Belene.

3 Q. This particular Krnojelac that we're talking

4 about.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I have information that there are two houses

7 belonging to a family named Krnojelac there.

8 A. Well, I don't know how many Krnojelacs there

9 are, but I do know him personally.

10 Q. If I were to tell you that the Krnojelac we

11 are talking about is from another village which is

12 across the River Drina, on the other bank, and I've

13 jotted down that name as well --

14 A. Well, I doubt that.

15 Q. You doubt or you're sure?

16 A. I'm sure.

17 Q. Very well. Thank you.

18 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] With the

19 Trial Chamber's permission, I should now like to ask

20 two questions which are not directly linked to these

21 events, but I consider that with two or three answers

22 from the witness we could gain an impression of the

23 situation which took place after the beginning of the

24 war, on that territory. And it is linked to the area,

25 the region, around the village where the witness was

Page 2582













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between

14 the French and English transcripts.













Page 2583

1 born.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Counsel, you can go

3 ahead.

4 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I

5 should like to ask for the usher's assistance, if I

6 may. Would you please show the witness this piece of

7 paper?

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Can it be marked for

9 identification only, please.

10 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

11 on the piece of paper is written the name of the

12 village in which the witness is born. I do not wish to

13 say it outloud because of the protection measures, but

14 I should just like the witness to confirm whether that

15 is her native village or not. I don't wish to tender

16 it into evidence. It is just for identification

17 purposes and to facilitate communication.


19 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] It will be

20 marked, for identification purposes, D46.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: I thought the witness had

22 informed the Court where she was born at the very

23 beginning of her evidence, and it's already on the

24 record.

25 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

Page 2584

1 I apologise, but I did not receive any interpretation

2 of what you have just said.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is

4 where I was born. That's quite right.

5 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Do you know whether, after the beginning of

7 the war --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel switch his

9 microphone on, please.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: You should speak nearer your

11 microphone. Your microphone is on, is it? It's on,

12 yes. Can you just speak into the microphone, because

13 it seems we are having problems with the interpreters

14 not hearing counsel.

15 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

16 I am still not getting the interpretation, so I still

17 do not know what you have just told me. I'm not

18 getting the interpretation.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: What is happening? Can you

20 hear?

21 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

22 Honour.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: You can hear the interpretation

24 now?

25 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

Page 2585

1 Honour, I can hear.

2 JUDGE HUNT: If it assists you, the witness

3 did name where she was born at page 4 of the LiveNote.

4 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

5 Your Honour. I omitted to note that, and so out of an

6 abundance of caution, I used the piece of paper.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please proceed.

8 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Next to your village, there were some other

10 hamlets, were there not?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. These hamlets were predominantly

13 Serb-inhabited, some of them, and others were

14 predominantly Muslim; is that right? I'm going to read

15 several names. Vrajici, Vukosici, Grubojovici,

16 Humsko.

17 A. Yes, that's where I was born. Yes.

18 Q. So those were predominantly Muslim hamlets.

19 A. Yes, that's right.

20 Q. And then there were some other ones. For

21 example, Kozarevo, Sile, Vine, all these villages.

22 A. Yes, I know those too.

23 Q. And they were predominantly Serb-populated,

24 were they not?

25 A. Yes, that's right.

Page 2586

1 Q. Do you happen to know what happened in the

2 area where you were born, after the beginning of the

3 war?

4 A. No, I wasn't there.

5 Q. So you have learnt nothing to the present day

6 as to what went on there.

7 A. Well, I had my own problems. I wasn't

8 interested in what happened in those parts. (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 Q. Please don't say where you were.

12 A. Don't ask me the questions that you're not

13 supposed to ask me, then, please.

14 Q. Well, I don't know what I'm supposed to ask

15 you or not supposed to ask you. All I asked you was

16 whether you remembered. You said you didn't know.

17 A. Well, ask me what happened here and where I

18 lived as a married woman and where I lived during the

19 war. From 1967 onwards, you can ask me that.

20 Q. Well, I'm going to ask you everything that

21 the Trial Chamber lets me ask you.

22 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] But I have no

23 further questions anyway, Your Honours. Thank you.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: All right, Mr. Jovanovic.

25 The next counsel, please.

Page 2587

1 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

2 Q. Good day.

3 A. Good day, madam.

4 Q. You said that on the 3rd of July you reached

5 the secondary school centre.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Among the persons who arrived there with you,

8 were there any injured people?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were those people given any medical

11 assistance?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. During your stay in the high school, did

14 Dr. Smrekic come to visit and examine the patients?

15 A. Once, when he took three persons for

16 treatment.

17 Q. Where did he take them?

18 A. He took them somewhere to treat them.

19 Whether it is in the medical centre or the hospital, I

20 really don't know. I can tell you what I know. So I

21 saw them leave.

22 Q. Thank you. During your stay in the high

23 school, did you personally have any problems in the

24 sense of physical abuse or mistreatment or

25 psychological mistreatment?

Page 2588

1 A. Psychologically, yes. People were cursing

2 and swearing at us.

3 Q. And physically?

4 A. No, not physically. Psychologically they

5 mistreated, they cursed at us.

6 Q. Did anyone physically abuse you in Partizan?

7 A. No. Physically, no. But psychologically,

8 yes.

9 Q. Today, in answer to a question from my

10 learned friend, you said that the soldiers, that same

11 night, on the 3rd of July, came to take girls out.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You said that on that occasion they took out

14 75. So look at the list, please. Numbers 87, 74.

15 A. Yes. Yes.

16 Q. And 95.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you. In your statement, on page 8 of

19 that statement, you said, "The Serb soldiers started

20 coming and taking girls away several days after our

21 arrival in the secondary school."

22 A. Yes, they took them but in smaller numbers.

23 This was on the first day, that same night when we

24 arrived. Afterwards it happened again but not as

25 frequently as in Partizan. One or two women, but it

Page 2589

1 wasn't as frequent.

2 Q. You said "several women"?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. How many times during your 10- or 15-day stay

5 there?

6 A. I was there between seven and ten days, so

7 I'm not quite sure about that. But I know that Janjic,

8 Tuta, took one of our girls; this one, 88. I know he

9 took her away, and kept her there all night, and

10 brought her back the next day. This happened several

11 times. Also, 75 was taken out; not the others. Only

12 that first night.

13 Q. Thank you. So you came to Partizan when; can

14 you remember?

15 A. No, I can't remember the exact date.

16 Q. But let me try and remind you. In your

17 statement, on page 11, let me read out what you said.

18 "On one occasion, I was taken to be exchanged in

19 Cajnice. This was on the 15th of July, 1992."

20 THE INTERPRETER: Can we ask counsel to slow

21 down, please.

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you slow down for the

24 interpreters, please.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

Page 2590

1 Honour.

2 Q. So this was on the 15th of July. How many

3 persons went to be exchanged with you?

4 A. With me, eight of us. And before us, 38

5 women and 16 men from the KP Dom, a day before us.

6 Q. So one day before you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you know who those 38 women were? Women

9 with children?

10 A. Yes, women from Partizan.

11 Q. Could you write down their names?

12 A. Yes, I mean I could. Only women from

13 Partizan. They will tell you, they will tell you,

14 those who came here.

15 Q. But tell me, from this list, who went with

16 you on that occasion? The list that you have in front

17 of you, it's probably easier for you to give us the

18 numbers.

19 A. With me in the car was 87, DB, and their

20 mother and brother, and me, and this woman whose name I

21 don't know, and the reporter that said, "BBC", who

22 didn't speak our language, so I don't know anything

23 more about her.

24 Q. During your stay in the secondary school and

25 Partizan, did certain people come and visit you who

Page 2591

1 were politicians, if I can put it that way?

2 A. No.

3 Q. On page 13 of your statement, you mention

4 names of a number of politicians, as you described

5 them?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Of Serb ethnicity?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did any one of them come to the secondary

10 school?

11 A. No, no.

12 Q. Did any one of them come to Partizan?

13 A. No, no.

14 Q. You said that you were not involved in

15 politics, and yet you know the names of these

16 politicians?

17 A. I knew from before the war, the end of 1991,

18 what functions people had, and I knew them personally.

19 Until the war, we knew each other well. My

20 mother-in-law lived in the same house. I know Jelena.

21 She was a judge in court. I know -- what's his name?

22 He had a white strand of hair here. I know them all,

23 but I can't remember their names now.

24 Q. Do you know any of the politicians of Muslim

25 ethnicity?

Page 2592

1 A. I do, of course I do. I watched on

2 television, if you mean them.

3 Q. Could you give us a few names, the

4 politicians who were prominent at the same time as

5 these that you have listed?

6 A. You mean in Foca?

7 Q. Yes, in Foca.

8 A. No, I don't know, I really don't know. I

9 don't know anyone who was a politician there and then.

10 Q. Who was the president of the municipality in

11 Foca?

12 A. He was a Muslim. I don't know, I don't

13 know. I know he was a Muslim.

14 Q. Could it have been Voja Thapa?

15 A. Yes. My problem is I can't remember names

16 because I've gone through all this.

17 Q. You said today, in answer to a question from

18 my learned friend -- let me find it, please -- that

19 when Zaga came to Partizan, this was after the Aladza

20 had been destroyed, and after that, he took four girls

21 out?

22 A. No, not after that. It was the day before

23 the Aladza was destroyed. Then the day later, this

24 journalist came. And then after the journalist, Zaga

25 came to take away these four girls. I really don't

Page 2593













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14 the French and English transcripts.













Page 2594

1 remember the date.

2 Q. When was the Aladza destroyed?

3 A. On the 2nd.

4 Q. And when did the journalist come?

5 A. A day later after that.

6 Q. After the Aladza was destroyed?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So that must have been the 3rd?

9 A. Yes. I know the Aladza was destroyed on the

10 2nd, and I know when these soldiers came, because they

11 said that Aladza was destroyed on St. Ilija's Day, so

12 they were making fun of things.

13 Q. So the journalist came on the 3rd to

14 Partizan?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So who spoke to the journalist on that day

17 when she came?

18 A. 75, 87, DB, and 50.

19 Q. What did they talk about with the reporter?

20 A. As far as I could hear, and we were close by,

21 they complained to her how they were being taken out

22 and raped and mistreated, psychologically and

23 physically, that they were mistreated. The journalist

24 listened to it all, and then they said it would be

25 better for them to keep quiet, because otherwise they

Page 2595

1 would be both beaten and fucked.

2 Q. So after this conversation with the

3 journalist, Kunarac came after that?

4 A. The next day, in the morning. I don't know

5 exactly the time.

6 Q. In the morning?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you remember who he came with?

9 A. Three other soldiers were with him. There

10 was some civilians too. I don't know who they were. I

11 personally knew Zaga. He introduced himself as such.

12 And I didn't know the others. I don't know their

13 names.

14 Q. Do you remember what Kunarac said on that

15 occasion?

16 A. I do. He said -- first he started cursing.

17 He approached 95, threatening, and saying, "Who said

18 these things?" And he slapped her, and then he pointed

19 a knife at her little girl of one and a half,

20 threatening to slaughter her. We were sitting down.

21 He was kneeling down. Then he got up and called out,

22 by name and surname, the girl number 75, 87, DB, and

23 50, and he took them away. Where he took them, I don't

24 know.

25 Q. Did you see him again in Partizan?

Page 2596

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. After that event?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Let me remind you. In your statement, on

5 page 11 -- will you please look at your statement.

6 It's in front of you to the left, on the table in front

7 of you. Page 11, please. The second paragraph, it

8 starts -- will you read it, please?

9 A. You want me to read it?

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, it's much faster if

11 counsel reads the passages from the documents. Will

12 you please do the reading yourself.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel slow down.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Could you please read slowly?

15 The interpreters haven't got a copy.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. "The next day in the morning, Zaga came with

18 another three Serbs."

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And then at the end of the paragraph, you

21 say: "I didn't see Zaga in the secondary school.

22 After this day, I did not see Zaga again."

23 A. No, I did see him a couple of times, that he

24 would come with another couple of soldiers. They would

25 take women out. Whether Zaga took them for himself or

Page 2597

1 for somebody else, let them tell you.

2 Q. So what you said in this statement is not

3 true?

4 A. It is true. I said I had seen him. When I

5 was asked whether I had seen him again, I said, "Yes, I

6 had seen him again, that he took women out, whether he

7 took them out for someone else."

8 Q. I'm asking you about this sentence. You

9 said: "I didn't see Zaga again."

10 A. I did see him.

11 Q. So my question is: This is not true?

12 A. I don't know how this could have crept in. I

13 know that I did see him and that he came a couple of

14 times, but not as often as others came. There would be

15 two or three soldiers. Whether they took them for Zaga

16 or for someone else, I don't know.

17 Q. When did you see Zaga for the first time in

18 Partizan?

19 A. I saw him for the first time maybe a couple

20 of days before that when he came, when he personally

21 took women to his troops, and he knows that very well.

22 They were in some burned-down Muslim houses. The women

23 told about that. Then I saw him a second time when

24 they took them out, then again when he took these women

25 away. Let the women tell you where he took them.

Page 2598

1 Q. On page 14, under point 4, you said: "I am

2 giving this statement according to my best

3 recollection. Everything that I have said is true."

4 A. What I'm saying now, yes. I don't know what

5 they typed down there. Everything I have said is

6 true. I know I've said the truth. There's not a

7 millimetre that could be wrong. Zaga didn't do me

8 personally any harm. I have no reason to charge him of

9 anything.

10 Q. Did you see these girls again afterwards?

11 A. No, no, just this one under number 50 the

12 last day when we were going to leave Partizan, and I

13 didn't see the others again.

14 Q. How was Zaga dressed that day?

15 A. He was in uniform that day he took the girls

16 out.

17 Q. Did he have anything characteristic on him?

18 A. I didn't notice anything.

19 Q. Did he have any insignia on his uniforms?

20 A. I didn't see any.

21 Q. Did you speak to him?

22 A. No, but we were right close by because Number

23 95 was sitting next to me, so we were maybe ten

24 centimetres away from one another.

25 Q. Did you notice anything specific in the way

Page 2599

1 he spoke?

2 A. He had an accent.

3 Q. What kind of an accent?

4 A. Something like Montenegrin. He had an

5 accent.

6 Q. According to your statement, on page 10 you

7 said: "Everything I know about Zaga is that he had a

8 Montenegrin accent. I don't know his first or last

9 names."

10 A. Zaga, I know the nickname Zaga. That is how

11 he introduced himself. I knew that, hearing it from

12 him directly, but I knew from the other women that his

13 name was Kunarac.

14 Q. Why, in that statement, as this was four

15 years after the event, why didn't you say that you knew

16 his name?

17 A. Why? He said he was Zaga. And in all my

18 statements, I refer to him as Zaga, as far as I know.

19 Q. In the course of that morning when he came,

20 did he come in at the door and say, "I am Zaga"?

21 A. No, not at the doorway, but he came inside.

22 And when he was mistreating this woman, he said,

23 "You'll see who Zaga is." And he called out 75, 87,

24 DB, and 51 -- no, no, and 50, and he said, "You will

25 see who Zaga is and why you complained." That is what

Page 2600

1 I personally heard him say.

2 Q. So you understood that he called out the

3 names of those women who had spoken to the journalist?

4 A. Yes, exactly, precisely those.

5 Q. Did he say to them then, "I'm calling out

6 those of them who spoke to the journalist," and who

7 said that Zaga and his soldiers were raping them?

8 A. Yes. First he said, "Where are the women who

9 complained to the journalist that they were being taken

10 to be raped?" That is what he said.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry. We didn't get that

12 last sentence.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. The journalist whose name you've written

15 down, you said you know her?

16 A. I knew her from before the war. She lived at

17 Brod.

18 Q. During your stay in Partizan, were you able

19 to move around freely around the building or to go

20 outside?

21 A. We could move within the compound, within the

22 fence.

23 Q. Did you know that some women could go out to

24 buy supplies for the children?

25 A. Yes, I did know that, but they had to ask the

Page 2601

1 guard for permission. And then the woman who went to

2 buy something for the children, she would have to go

3 and come back, but after asking permission from the

4 guard.

5 Q. You mentioned today the person under 95?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you know that during your stay in

8 Partizan, she went to negotiate an exchange?

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 Q. Do you remember how many times she went?

11 A. As far as I can remember, two or three times

12 I think she went. I know she went twice. I'm not sure

13 about the third time.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Just a minute. A few moments

15 ago, you asked a question: "Did he say to them then,

16 'I'm calling out those of them who spoke to the

17 journalist,' and who said that Zaga and his soldiers

18 were raping them?" And the witness is recorded as

19 having answered that: "Yes. First he said, 'Where are

20 the women who complained to the journalist that they

21 were being raped,' that is what he said." And the

22 interpreters then said: "We didn't get the next

23 sentence."

24 Now, it might be important or it may not -- I

25 don't know, you would have heard it -- that we should

Page 2602

1 get somewhere recorded on the transcript what that last

2 sentence she said was. Do you remember what it was?

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The last

4 sentence was: "Zaga and his men."

5 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. When she went for an exchange, how long did

8 she stay away for?

9 A. She would come back the same day. I don't

10 know at what time. I don't know who took her there.

11 They went to the confrontation line. I don't know what

12 happened there. Then they probably waited for her and

13 brought her back. How long she stayed, I really can't

14 tell.

15 Q. When she wasn't there, who took care of her

16 children?

17 A. When she wasn't there, her mother-in-law took

18 care of them. I don't think it's her real

19 mother-in-law because her father-in-law married twice,

20 so this was his second wife, and she took care of the

21 children.

22 Q. Can you tell us whether she went for this

23 exchange negotiations to Gorazde both times prior to

24 the destruction of the mosque?

25 A. I don't know. I know that she went and that

Page 2603

1 Dragan Gagovic was the organiser of those negotiations,

2 and he would select women with small children to make

3 sure that they would come back.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no

5 further questions, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination?

7 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Witness,

9 for giving evidence to the Tribunal. You are now free

10 to go.

11 Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

12 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour. You will

13 note, perhaps, that we had passed up an indication as

14 to the witnesses we anticipate will be called next

15 week. We did not, could not, of course, forecast how

16 long this witness would last today.

17 Witness 48 will be a somewhat lengthy

18 witness, and rather than have her start today and be

19 kept over a lengthy period, we propose to start her on

20 Tuesday, if that meets with the Court's --

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that is okay. That is all

22 right.

23 So we've come to the end of today's

24 proceedings. We shall adjourn until Tuesday, 0930

25 hours.

Page 2604

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

2 1.03 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

3 the 2nd day of May, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.























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