Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3755

1 Tuesday, 23 May 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Would the

7 registrar please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case

9 IT-96-23-T, IT-96-23/1-T, the Prosecutor versus

10 Dragoljub Kunarac, Radomir Kovac, and Zoran Vukovic.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness. The

12 proceedings continue.

13 Cross-examination, Mr. Prodanovic.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

15 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

16 Your Honour.

17 WITNESS: WITNESS 61 [Resumed]

18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Prodanovic:

20 [Cont'd]

21 Q. Good morning.

22 A. Good morning.

23 Q. Let me remind you. Yesterday we stopped at

24 the question I put to you, and I said, "When did you go

25 to Gorazde?" And you said it was the following day.

Page 3756

1 Was there any shooting in the town on the day you left

2 for Gorazde?

3 A. That night that -- the previous night they

4 kept on shooting all night, until the morning.

5 Q. Which route did you take to leave the town?

6 Was it through Donje Polje or was it near Opstina?

7 A. We passed by the SUP, over the bridge, the

8 Drina bridge.

9 Q. Was there a barricade? And when I finish my

10 question, would you please wait a little because of the

11 interpreters.

12 A. No, I didn't see any barricades.

13 Q. How long did you stay in Gorazde?

14 A. I stayed there for about 23 days.

15 Q. When you were leaving for Gorazde, did you go

16 to the Filipovici barracks or did you go there on your

17 return from Gorazde?

18 A. On my way to Gorazde I went to the Filipovici

19 barracks.

20 Q. And did you stay there throughout your time?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. Could you explain to us who was in charge of

23 the barracks?

24 A. Oh, I don't know. There were some soldiers

25 in the barracks.

Page 3757

1 Q. In your statement you said it was the JNA.

2 Is that correct?

3 A. Yes, it was the JNA then.

4 Q. And how did they treat you?

5 A. Normally.

6 Q. Did they help you?

7 A. There was nothing for them to do to help us.

8 There were a lot of refugees there.

9 Q. Did you eat with them?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you hear later what happened to the

12 barracks and who took it over?

13 A. Yes. Yes, I did. I heard -- I don't know

14 whether it was the following morning or two or three

15 days later. They came and they took over the barracks.

16 Q. Was Witness 183 with you the whole time?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Where did you meet Witness 183?

19 A. She came to fetch me so that we could go to

20 Foca together.

21 Q. Are you related to her in any way?

22 A. No.

23 Q. When did you come back to Foca?

24 A. On the 23rd of April, 1992, or at least I

25 think that's when it was. It's very hard to remember

Page 3758

1 all the dates.

2 Q. Yes, I understand. When was the first time

3 that Serb soldiers started entering people's flats in

4 relation to the time of your arrival?

5 A. Well, sometime after we came to Foca.

6 Q. What were they wearing?

7 A. Well, they wore camouflage uniforms. Some of

8 them were in civilian clothes, with leather vests, and

9 so on, but most of them were in camouflage uniform.

10 Q. Did they introduce themselves when they

11 entered the flats?

12 A. No, no. Well, we didn't ask them to, and

13 they didn't.

14 Q. Can you tell me when you heard the nickname

15 Zaga for the first time?

16 A. When he came to the flat of 183.

17 Q. From whom did you hear it?

18 A. Well, as I said yesterday, from soldier

19 Tadic.

20 Q. Was that the first time you saw Zaga?

21 A. Yes, it was the first time.

22 Q. Where were you when you saw Zaga?

23 A. I was opposite the flat of 183.

24 Q. Who was with you when Zaga turned up?

25 A. Witness 183, her child, my two sons, two

Page 3759

1 other women, and two other children.

2 Q. Were there any refugees with you?

3 A. Yes, the two women and the two children I

4 mentioned.

5 Q. Who was with Zaga?

6 A. There were two other soldiers.

7 Q. Can you describe the other two soldiers?

8 A. I can describe one of them, but not the other

9 one.

10 Q. So please describe the one you can describe.

11 A. Well, he was of medium height, dark-haired.

12 He had a pudgy face, and he had an accent. He used the

13 word "oli". It seemed to be a Montenegrin accent.

14 Q. When was the first time you learned Zaga's

15 full name?

16 A. Well, I learned it from that soldier.

17 Q. Did you all go to 183's flat?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Where did the soldier Tadic live?

20 A. I don't know where he lived, but he used to

21 come to the flat opposite the flat of 183.

22 Q. Did he help you in any way?

23 A. Well, yes. He was a good man. He was not

24 rough at all.

25 Q. In your statement, on the second page, last

Page 3760

1 paragraph, you said: "A soldier told us that this was

2 Zaga Kunarac. In fact, he had told us earlier that

3 Zaga Kunarac would come to the flat. The soldier who

4 told us this was Tadic, who often came to people's

5 flats. Tadic told me that Zaga Kunarac would come with

6 his soldiers, and that those were soldiers going around

7 looting."

8 Yesterday, you said something different. You

9 said that Tadic told you after they left, "I could not

10 oppose Zaga Kunarac." Which of these two statements is

11 correct?

12 A. Well, you know, it's all correct, because

13 it's been eight years since that happened. But believe

14 me, everything I have said is true.

15 Q. Do you know what happened to the soldier

16 Tadic afterwards?

17 A. I learned that he had been killed.

18 Q. Was that during your stay in Foca?

19 A. Yes, we were in Foca.

20 Q. Was there anybody else there when he told you

21 this? I mean about Zaga Kunarac.

22 A. What do you mean "was anybody else there"?

23 Q. Well, when he told you that Zaga Kunarac was

24 going to come.

25 A. Yes, 183 was there, and the owner of the

Page 3761

1 flat.

2 Q. What do you think? How could he have told

3 you that Zaga Kunarac was going to come if he had never

4 come before?

5 A. Well, probably he heard that Zaga Kunarac was

6 going around the town, and so he told us. He probably

7 heard that it had already started, that they had

8 started going around flats, looting and maltreating

9 families.

10 Q. And he just mentioned that name?

11 A. Yes. He said that soldiers would come, that

12 is, Zaga, that he was dangerous, and that no one could

13 stand up to him.

14 Q. Were you with 183 the whole time while Zaga

15 was in the flat?

16 A. Yes, I was.

17 Q. Were you physically mistreated?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Where was 183 when they entered the room?

20 Was she apart from you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you tell us where she was?

23 A. She was in the children's room.

24 Q. Who was she with at the time?

25 A. Zaga took her to the children's room alone.

Page 3762

1 Q. When the soldiers took 183 away, what time

2 was it; do you remember?

3 A. It was about 1.00 a.m.

4 Q. At that moment, were all three of them there?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When the third soldier came who stayed in

7 (redacted), do you know when that was?

8 A. Well, that was the same time.

9 Q. How long did 183 stay outside after they took

10 her away?

11 A. About an hour or an hour and a half,

12 approximately.

13 Q. Can you tell us at what time she came back?

14 Do you remember?

15 A. It was around 2.30 or 3.00.

16 Q. In 183's absence, did you discuss this

17 incident with anyone?

18 A. Yes, I discussed it with Tadic.

19 Q. What did you talk about?

20 A. I asked him what would happen to 183.

21 Q. When the soldiers came back, how long did

22 they stay in the flat that time?

23 A. About 20 minutes or half an hour at the most.

24 Q. On their return, did they physically maltreat

25 you?

Page 3763

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did 183 tell you she had been raped that

3 night?

4 A. She told me that she had barely survived,

5 that she had been maltreated, and that they had forced

6 her to do impossible things, things that are difficult

7 to do.

8 Q. How much time elapsed from that incident

9 until the time you left Foca?

10 A. Well, between 15 and 20 days.

11 Q. You mentioned Dragan Gagovic. Tell me, did

12 you know him personally?

13 A. I didn't know him before the war.

14 Q. You said that he became the chief of police

15 only during the war. Do you still say that?

16 A. Yes. When we were going to get our passes, I

17 saw on the door that it said that he was the chief of

18 police.

19 Q. Do you know who was the chief of police

20 before him?

21 A. No, I have no idea. In fact, I can't

22 remember.

23 Q. Do you remember when you gave a statement to

24 investigators of the Tribunal?

25 A. What investigator?

Page 3764

1 Q. Investigators of The Hague Tribunal.

2 A. I made the first statement in 1996.

3 Q. That was an interview. But when did you make

4 a statement?

5 A. Well, it was in 1998.

6 Q. Do you remember whether the accused had

7 already given himself up to the Tribunal when you made

8 this statement?

9 A. No, I don't know anything.

10 Q. At whose initiative did you make this

11 statement?

12 A. On my own initiative.

13 Q. Did you make the statement in a foreign

14 country?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Do you remember whether it was the time when

17 refugees were returning to Bosnia and Herzegovina?

18 A. It had nothing to do with that.

19 Q. Did you talk to the investigators or, rather,

20 when you talked, did they offer you any benefits

21 regarding your stay in that country?

22 A. No. I never asked for anything.

23 Q. After making that statement, did you stay in

24 that country?

25 A. Yes, I did.

Page 3765

1 Q. Did you make the statement at the same time

2 as Witness 183?

3 A. No.

4 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] And finally

5 I would like to tender into evidence a report on the

6 procedure of identification by way of a photo board,

7 where the witness did not recognise the accused.

8 That would be my last question.

9 With your permission, I would have one last

10 question for this witness.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you just hold on?

12 Can we have a formal number, please.

13 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is

14 Exhibit D68, under seal.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection from the

16 Prosecution for this document to be tendered into

17 evidence?

18 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no

19 objection, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Yes. It's tendered

21 under seal. You can go ahead, Counsel.

22 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

23 Your Honour.

24 Q. Can you tell us where Tadic lived, in whose

25 apartment? Do you remember who lived in that apartment

Page 3766

1 before him? Do you remember?

2 A. (redacted).

3 Q. Was she in that apartment?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was Tadic in her apartment with her?

6 A. He would come to that apartment.

7 Q. On that critical evening, was he in (redacted)

8 (redacted)?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How come he was there?

11 A. Well, he would come there.

12 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no

13 further questions, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?

15 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

16 the Defence for the accused Radomir Kovac has no

17 questions for this witness.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic?

19 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

20 we have no questions. Thank you.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic, if you have so

22 much pain, Ms. Lopicic can do the formalities for you.

23 She's co-counsel.

24 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

25 thank you very much.

Page 3767

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination?

2 MR. MUNDIS: No, Your Honour. The

3 Prosecution has no re-examination for this witness.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Witness,

5 for giving evidence. You are now released.

6 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution, please.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The next witness will

10 testify in closed session. I don't know if the

11 registrar needs to fix anything because of the voice

12 alteration for this other witness.

13 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We don't need

14 to have a break to have the courtroom ready for the

15 next witness.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. We'll proceed.

17 This will be a closed session.

18 [Closed session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3768













13 pages 3768-3900 redacted closed session








21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

22 at 4.02 p.m., to be reconvened on

23 Wednesday, the 24th day of May, 2000,

24 at 9.30 a.m.