Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5516

1 Wednesday, 13 September 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Would the registrar please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] IT-96-23-T, IT-96-23/1-T, the

7 Prosecutor versus Kunarac, Kovac, and Vukovic.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Good morning. We are continuing with the

9 Defence case. I understand there are some applications for protective

10 measures. Can we please have them.

11 MS. LOPICIC: Good morning, Your Honours. I would like to

12 explain. As the Trial Chamber knows, four of the Defence witnesses came

13 last night to The Hague, and number 5 to 8 on the list that was filed on

14 30th of August. All four Defence witnesses requested late last night two

15 kinds of protective measures: That's facial distortion and pseudonym.

16 The reason that they requested those protective measures is because of the

17 nature of their work. They are afraid that if the public finds out that

18 they testified, they may be in danger, as well as their families, because

19 they live in Republika Srpska and, as you know, other ethnicities are

20 living there. So we suggest and propose the defence of co-accused

21 Mr. Kovac, Mr. Kunarac, and Mr. Vukovic, for first on the list to have a

22 pseudonym DJ, the second on the list DK, the third on the list DL, and the

23 fourth on the list DM. I would most like to ask, respectfully, to the

24 Trial Chamber to grant these protective measures.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

Page 5517

1 The Prosecution, can we have your submissions on these two

2 requests?

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The first request for the four witnesses, now

4 we don't have any objections.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Facial distortion and pseudonym?

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. No objection.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: For all the four?


9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Trial Chamber grants the four witnesses

10 protective measures in the form of pseudonyms as stated by the Defence,

11 and facial distortion. Can we go ahead and deal with facial distortion or

12 just the blinds? Yes. Can that be done?

13 MS. LOPICIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 [Trial Chamber confers with legal officer]

16 JUDGE MUMBA: I would like to verify with the Defence before the

17 witness comes in. We were told this morning that the first witness on the

18 list should be DG. Didn't we have DG yesterday?

19 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honours, I'm sorry. DJ.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Because I was looking on my list for -- yes.

21 DJ, DK, DL, DM. Yes. All right. So it's DJ. The first one is DJ.

22 MS. LOPICIC: The second one is DK, the third one is DL, and the

23 fourth one is DM.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 5518

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness. Please make the solemn

2 declaration.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Please sit down. Yes, Counsel, please go ahead.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

9 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

10 Q. Good morning, witness.

11 A. Good morning.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: You can start.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you.

14 Q. Witness, at your request, the Defence proposed protective measures

15 for you. The Trial Chamber accepted this proposal. And for the reasons

16 you mentioned, during the proceedings we will be addressing you as DJ.

17 A. Very well.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher to

19 show the witness a paper with his/her details so that he/she could confirm

20 whether that is his/her name and surname and date and place of birth.

21 Q. Please don't read it. Please don't read it out loud. Just say

22 yes or no.

23 A. It's all right.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number, please, and under seal.

25 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document will be D154 and it

Page 5519

1 will be under seal.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please proceed.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 Q. I would just like to ask Witness DJ to explain to us why he did

5 not come in June, why he did not appear as a witness before the Tribunal

6 in June.

7 A. The reason why I did not come in June was due to the fact that I

8 had surgery. I had appendicitis.

9 Q. Thank you. On the piece of paper that we showed you, your birth

10 place is written as well. Could you tell us how far away your village is

11 from Foca?

12 A. My village is 25 to 30 kilometres away from Foca.

13 Q. Have you always lived in that village?

14 A. I lived in my village until 1978.

15 Q. And after that, where did you live then?

16 A. I lived in Sarajevo.

17 Q. Until when did you live in Sarajevo?

18 A. I lived in Sarajevo until 1992, until the 6th of April.

19 Q. Where did you go then?

20 A. Then I went to my village, Podrid.

21 Q. Just a minute, please. Can you tell us: Your village, Podrid,

22 where is it in relation to the local commune of Jabuka and the

23 municipality in general?

24 A. The local commune of Jabuka, as I said, is 25 to 30 kilometres

25 away from Foca, and Podrid is a hamlet which is within this place called

Page 5520

1 Jabuka.

2 Q. Within this place called Jabuka, how many such villages are there?

3 A. In Jabuka there were about 30 villages, about 15 Serb and about 15

4 Muslim villages.

5 Q. What were the relations like between the Serbs and Muslims in the

6 territory of Jabuka at the time when you arrived on the 6th of April,

7 1992?

8 A. Well, the relations were already getting strained. War was in the

9 offing. Self-organisation had started. They had their village guards, we

10 had our village guards, and there were very few contacts.

11 Q. If I understood you correctly, when the war broke out, you

12 happened to be in Jabuka; is that right?

13 A. Yes, that's right.

14 Q. On the territory of your municipality, were there any conflicts

15 between Serbs and Muslims and when did they break out, if any?

16 A. I did not understand you. Could you please repeat this?

17 Q. On the territory of the municipality where you lived, were there

18 any conflicts between the Serbs and Muslims? You said that relations were

19 not good and that there were village guards.

20 A. As far as Jabuka itself is concerned, until 1992, there weren't

21 any conflicts except for minor provocations in the places where I lived.

22 Q. And when did the conflict break out on the territory of the

23 municipality of Foca?

24 A. The 6th of April, 1992.

25 Q. On this 23rd of July, 1992, would you explain how the conflict

Page 5521

1 broke out in your village?

2 A. On the 23rd of July, at daybreak, around 5.00 in the morning,

3 there was a sudden attack by the Muslims against all Serb villages at the

4 same time. It was an organised attack and it was carried out with strong

5 military forces.

6 Q. Did you, the villagers from your village and the villagers from

7 other villages -- do you know about that? Was any resistance put up?

8 A. It was impossible to offer any resistance because we were

9 outnumbered by far. We had very few forces. We had only village guards.

10 These were people who were ill-equipped. There were very few of us and

11 very few weapons, so it was impossible to offer any resistance.

12 Q. How did you, the locals, react to this attack?

13 A. It was a violent attack. We saw that there was no way we could

14 handle this, so we tried to get to Previla as soon as possible, where the

15 2nd Battalion was. That was the only place where we could seek shelter.

16 Q. As far as I understood you correctly, you were fleeing, right?

17 A. Yes, we were fleeing. In my group, there were about 30 persons,

18 women, old men, and children primarily. At any rate, we were fleeing

19 through the woods and places like that.

20 Q. Were you all fleeing in the same direction?

21 A. Half of the villages that were closer to Previla set out for

22 Previla. Whereas the villages that were closer to the municipality of

23 Pale, the population from these villages started withdrawing towards

24 Pale.

25 Q. Were there some people who stayed in these hamlets and villages?

Page 5522

1 A. Yes, there were some people who stayed, who were killed or

2 wounded, and who later came to Previla, et cetera.

3 Q. During your flight, as you had put it, did you encounter Muslim

4 ambushes?

5 A. Yes. In two places there were strong Muslim ambushes that we came

6 across.

7 Q. Can you tell us whether you knew Dragoljub Kunarac before the

8 war?

9 A. No.

10 Q. When did you meet him?

11 A. I met Dragoljub Kunarac on the 23rd of July, 1992, in the village

12 of Podstijena, in the morning hours, between 9.00 and 10.00.

13 Q. Did he tell you that he was Dragoljub Kunarac or did you find out

14 from someone else that he was Dragoljub Kunarac?

15 A. He introduced himself, saying that he was Dragoljub Kunarac.

16 Later, as we socialised, I heard that he had a nickname, Zaga.

17 Q. On that morning of the 23rd of July, around 9.00 or 10.00, when

18 you met Dragoljub Kunarac, who was with him?

19 A. There were five or six men with him as well. They came with the

20 intention of helping the population of these villages.

21 Q. Can you tell us, if you can remember, what did they look like?

22 What were they dressed like?

23 A. They wore different clothes. They had parts of military uniform

24 and civilian clothes, things like that.

25 Q. Do you remember what Dragoljub Kunarac wore?

Page 5523

1 A. He had part of a camouflage uniform on, and he also had a brown

2 leather jacket.

3 Q. The men who were there, like Dragoljub Kunarac was, were they

4 armed?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Were there other men there who were armed?

7 A. Yes. There were some locals from these villages. There were

8 different kinds of weapons. There were hunting guns, there were military

9 rifles, things like that. At any rate, it varied, the weaponry.

10 Q. On the 23rd of July, when you all met up with these locals who

11 were armed and Zaga and the men you saw there, what did you do on that

12 day?

13 A. On that day, our objective was to find the persons who were

14 missing, because a large number of people had not appeared at all. We did

15 not know what had happened to them. They were missing. We didn't know

16 whether they were killed or what had happened to them. So we got

17 organised to go and look for these people who were missing.

18 Q. During these events on that day, did you lose any family members

19 too?

20 A. Yes, I lost my brother.

21 Q. Did you find your brother?

22 A. We found my brother on the 26th of July, 1992, in the evening, in

23 the presence of Dragoljub Kunarac, nicknamed Zaga.

24 Q. If I understood you correctly, between the 23rd and 26th of July,

25 in that area, you were looking for the dead and missing; is that right?

Page 5524












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Page 5525

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. Can you tell us, on the 23rd of July, when you set out on that

3 day, how many corpses did you find?

4 A. On the first day, we found about 15 to 16 corpses.

5 Q. On that day, was Kunarac with you all the time?

6 A. Yes. Kunarac was with us all day. We were looking for the dead,

7 as I said already.

8 Q. On that day, in the area where you were searching for corpses,

9 were there any attacks by Muslims? Was there any fighting?

10 A. There were attacks. The fighting took place on the hill of

11 Kozalj, but this was very short. The 2nd Battalion was there too. They

12 came from Previla. However, the fighting did not last very long. It was

13 brief.

14 Q. You said to us that the area of the local commune of Jabuka or the

15 village of Jabuka includes about 15 villages on its territory. Can you

16 illustrate the configuration of the ground for us? Can you tell us, how

17 big is the area encompassed by these villages, in your opinion?

18 A. Well, these villages are spread out over about 15 kilometres. It

19 is difficult to access this terrain. There are streams and rocks and

20 hills, and it is hardly accessible. That's what the configuration of the

21 terrain up there is, in general.

22 Q. On the 23rd of July, you said that you set out to search for the

23 dead. When did you finish searching the area on that day?

24 A. We searched the area the entire day, from the early morning hours

25 until the evening, until nightfall. We were in a hurry because we wanted

Page 5526

1 to find as many people as possible, and we also wanted to bury the dead as

2 soon as possible. It was summertime and it was very hot.

3 Q. On the 23rd of July, where did you spend the night? Did you get

4 any rest?

5 A. We spent the night in the village of Podstijena, in the house of

6 Mileva Simovic. We arrived in this house in the early evening [realtime

7 transcript read in error "morning"] hours, that is to say, as soon as

8 night fell, and that is where we spent the night.

9 Q. Who was with you in this house? Who spent the night at the house

10 with you?

11 A. I was there, Dragoljub Kunarac was there, a few of his men who

12 were with us, and some other local persons from the villages there.

13 Q. On the 24th of July, when did you set out and what were your

14 assignments like?

15 A. Well, our assignments were the same, searching for the dead. And

16 we left as early as possible again. Immediately at daybreak, we would

17 start our search.

18 Q. And do you remember -- let's go back to the 23rd of July. Which

19 is the area that you searched, which villages?

20 A. That was the area of the villages of Kolakovici, Rosulje, Kozalj,

21 and Podstijena.

22 Q. On the 24th of July --

23 MS. LOPICIC: I would like to tell you there is an error in the

24 typing. On page 11 of the transcript, on row number 23, "We searched the

25 area the entire day." It says here "early morning," but it's supposed to

Page 5527

1 be "early night." "We spent the night in the village of Podstijena."

2 That's row 10. I'm sorry. Row 4 on page 10. "We spent the night in the

3 village of Podstijena, in the house of Mileva. We arrived in this house

4 in the early morning hours." I heard the witness say "in the early night

5 hours." In the evening, not morning.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. He arrived at the house in the early evening

7 hours.

8 MS. LOPICIC: "Early evening hours." It says here "morning

9 hours." Thank you.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You may proceed.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 Q. On the 24th of July you said that you set out in the morning to

13 continue searching the ground for the dead. In which area were you then

14 and how many corpses did you find on that day?

15 A. On the second day we moved in the area of Rosulje and the other

16 side of the hill of Kozalj. On that day we found about four or five

17 corpses.

18 Q. Tell me: When you found these corpses, did you bury them

19 immediately?

20 A. Not on the first day, but we started on the 24th of July.

21 Q. While burying the corpses, was Dragoljub Kunarac with you?

22 A. Yes. He is the one who told us that if we were -- if we found a

23 dead body, we should not touch it, because it was possible that the dead

24 bodies were mined. And since he was very knowledgeable in this field,

25 these explosives and all that, we would always call him. He would always

Page 5528

1 be the first one to approach the corpse.

2 Q. Can you explain to us: During the course of the day, as you

3 towards the area [as interpreted], how many were you in this group? How

4 were you deployed? And as far as you are concerned, how close to you was

5 Dragoljub Kunarac?

6 A. Dragoljub Kunarac was always right next to me and we would always

7 subdivide the group so that we could look for the bodies more

8 successfully. The configuration of the terrain was very difficult. There

9 were woods and rocks and all that. So if any group were to find a corpse,

10 then we would call Kunarac and he would be the first person to touch the

11 dead body. It is precisely because of these mines and explosive devices

12 that we did that.

13 Q. On that 24th, do you remember how many corpses you buried?

14 A. On the 24th we buried all that we found. We could not wait,

15 because it was very hot and the bodies were already decaying.

16 Q. On that 24th of July, when did you finish searching the area and

17 where did you spend that night?

18 A. We finished the search late in the evening in the place of

19 Rosulje. That is where we spent the night as well.

20 Q. Who was with you that night as you slept?

21 A. The entire group that was involved in the search on that day was

22 there. We all spent the night there together.

23 Q. Was Dragoljub Kunarac with you there that night?

24 A. Yes. Yes. I can say that he was with me for sure.

25 Q. And that first night, on the 23rd of July, when you said that you

Page 5529

1 spent the night at Mileva's house, was Dragoljub Kunarac with you all the

2 time, throughout the night, or did he perhaps leave the house?

3 A. Since I was hurt by my brother's death -- in fact, I was in a

4 state of shock. I could not sleep -- I sat up all night so I could see

5 every move that he made. Dragoljub Kunarac did not leave the house at

6 all.

7 Q. Since you told me that you spent the night of the 24th in the area

8 of Rosulje, on the morning of the 25th you did what?

9 A. On the morning of the 25th we went further on. We continued

10 searching the ground in the area of the village of Jamici, in the

11 direction of Jamici.

12 Q. On that 25th, how many persons did you find, if any, and --

13 A. On the 25th we found about ten dead bodies in the villages between

14 Jamici and Previla.

15 Q. Did you bury the corpses on that day?

16 A. Yes. Whatever we would find during the course of the day we'd

17 bury, precisely for the reasons that I mentioned a few minutes ago, the

18 high temperatures and all that.

19 Q. When did you stop searching the ground on that day, the 25th?

20 A. We would finish at nightfall every day. Every day was the same.

21 Q. In view of the configuration of the terrain, how far could you go

22 every day? How many hamlets could you tour? You told us that this was an

23 area that stretched out over 15 kilometres.

24 A. We could not see very many. Three or four hamlets during the day,

25 that was our maximum.

Page 5530












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Page 5531

1 Q. During the course of the day, as you would tour the area, did you

2 take any breaks? Did you take lunch? Did you have something to eat?

3 A. Yes, there were breaks, but these were very short breaks. We

4 would usually eat tinned food, although there wasn't enough, and we also

5 had some food from the villagers who had remained in Milotina and

6 Podstijene, the villages near Previla.

7 Q. On that 25th, you said that you had toured part of the area.

8 Where did you spend the night of the 25th?

9 A. On the 25th, we also spent the night in that area.

10 Q. Do you remember perhaps which part of the area that is?

11 A. Well, that is a village, a hamlet of Podgradje. How can I explain

12 it to you?

13 Q. On the 26th you set out in the morning again to tour the area; is

14 that right?

15 A. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. In which area did you move then?

17 A. The direction in which we moved were the last villages, the

18 village of Jamici and its surroundings that I mentioned a few minutes

19 ago. That is the last village if you look from the direction of Previla.

20 Q. On that day did you find --

21 A. On that day we found seven or eight bodies, and as we were

22 returning towards Previla, we found the body of my brother in the village

23 of Rosulje, in the woods. We buried him in the evening hours, between

24 9.00 p.m. and 10.00 p.m.

25 Q. On that day, on the 26th, was Kunarac with you as well?

Page 5532

1 A. Yes, Kunarac was with me, and I really thank him, because he

2 helped me find my brother.

3 Q. You said that there were men with Kunarac. Did they have anything

4 characteristic on them that would single them out in relation to the other

5 people who were there with you? Did they have any insignia?

6 A. No, there weren't any insignia. I said already that they wore

7 different clothes. They had parts of military uniform, partly civilian

8 clothes, so there weren't any insignia.

9 Q. In relation to these men, was Dragoljub Kunarac something special

10 in any way?

11 A. No, nothing special. He was dressed like all the others.

12 Q. On the basis of these four days that you spent together, did you

13 get the impression that he was giving orders to these men and that he was

14 saying who should do what?

15 A. During those days I could not notice that he was more prominent

16 than anybody else. This was simply humanitarian assistance. Everybody

17 made the same effort to find the bodies.

18 Q. On the night of the 25th you say that Dragoljub Kunarac also spent

19 the night with you?

20 A. Yes, he also spent the night with us then.

21 Q. Could he have perhaps gone somewhere without you having seen him?

22 A. There was no possibility for him to go anywhere without me

23 noticing, because that -- during those nights I hardly got any sleep at

24 all, precisely because my brother was killed. I was very hurt by that.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Lopicic.

Page 5533

1 MS. LOPICIC: Yes. On page 15, row number 13, "On the night of

2 the 25th." I heard the witness said "On the night of the 26th." It's a

3 question, I'm sorry. "On the night of the 26th."

4 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel said 25th.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Let the counsel correct --

6 JUDGE HUNT: The interpreter says that the question --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: The counsel was 25th, yes.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. The night of the 25th, where did you spend the night?

10 A. In Podgradje, in the area of Podgradje.

11 Q. On that 26th, you were still searching the ground, were you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Which part of the area?

14 A. The last villages viewed from the direction of Previla.

15 Q. On this 26th, you said that you found your brother; right?

16 A. Yes, that's right; in the evening hours, between 9.00 p.m. and

17 10.00 p.m. He was buried then.

18 Q. You said that Dragoljub Kunarac was also with you.

19 A. Yes. I'm saying that with certainty.

20 Q. After you buried your brother on the 26th, you then said that it

21 was around 2200 hours. Where did you go then and where did Dragoljub

22 Kunarac go? In other words, did you complete with your search of the

23 terrain?

24 A. After we completed the search of terrain, we went to Previla.

25 Dragoljub Kunarac went back to Foca around 2400 hours that night.

Page 5534

1 Q. And those of you who were in Previla, where did you go?

2 A. We stayed at Previla another day, and after that we were taken to

3 Foca, to the secondary school centre, as refugees.

4 Q. In this period between 23rd and 26th, from when you started

5 this -- started this search until the evening on the 26th, around

6 2300 hours, how many dead bodies did you find and bury?

7 A. The final tally of all the victims found in the local commune of

8 Jabuka was 48.

9 Q. Did Dragoljub Kunarac and other people who were with you bury all

10 these bodies?

11 A. For the most part.

12 Q. What does that mean, "for the most part"?

13 A. We buried most of the bodies except some bodies which were

14 discovered later. Those that were not found in that period between the

15 23rd and the 26th of July.

16 Q. After that, did you see Dragoljub Kunarac?

17 A. No. After these events I did not see Dragoljub Kunarac because I

18 moved to Serbia, to my sister's, and I stayed there until the end of

19 October 1992.

20 Q. And from October 1992?

21 A. I came back to Foca, and I joined the police force and started

22 working on the border area between Serbia and Montenegro.

23 Q. Did you see Dragoljub Kunarac during that period?

24 A. Yes. I saw him in Foca, because he lived in Foca.

25 Q. Did you know whether he was still involved in combat operations

Page 5535












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Page 5536

1 and whether he participated in the war?

2 A. During the war, Dragoljub Kunarac was mostly involved in

3 reconnaissance. In 1994, I think he stepped on a mine while involved in

4 reconnoitring.

5 Q. Did he tell you this personally, or did you find that out from

6 other people?

7 A. I found this out from other people, but I could notice it myself

8 because he had lost his arm.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I can take a

10 minute to consult with my counsel.

11 [Defence counsel consult]

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. This concludes my

13 examination of this witness.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, do you have any questions for the

15 witness?

16 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Lopicic.

18 MS. LOPICIC: No, Your Honour, we do not have any questions for

19 this witness. Thank you.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution, cross-examination.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Cross-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

23 Q. Good morning, Witness.

24 A. Good morning.

25 Q. Witness, you have described to us the search for bodies, and you

Page 5537

1 told us that, altogether, 48 bodies were found, right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. That means 48 persons were killed, right?

4 A. Yes. Forty-eight persons in Jabuka.

5 Q. Do you recall that you gave a statement to the Defence

6 investigator in November 1998?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In this statement, you mentioned that 37 persons were killed.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And now you say 48.

11 A. You know what it was? There were 37 civilian victims and the rest

12 were soldiers. So the total number is 48, that is, altogether.

13 Q. And your brother, was he a civilian or was he a soldier?

14 A. Civilian.

15 Q. When the war started, you were 29 years of age, right?

16 A. I was born in 1963. So it is not a problem to calculate.

17 Q. So it's "yes" to my question?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You were fit for military service, right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you were mobilised when the war started, were you not?

22 A. No. As I said before, I was part of the village guards. That was

23 not a formation. That was merely protection of the village.

24 Q. But there was a mobilisation call when the war started, wasn't

25 there?

Page 5538

1 A. No. We were not included. In Previla, as I said, was the

2 2nd Battalion command. We were in the villages beyond them and we

3 self-organised, and I don't know what they did there.

4 Q. But in June 1992, the Bosnian Serb army was established and the

5 Tactical Group Foca was established, and you were a person of military age

6 and fit for military service, were you not?

7 A. That was no real mobilisation. It was self-organisation. The

8 Foca Tactical Group was not a real formation. This is my opinion.

9 Because we were not still fully mobilised then at that time. What

10 happened to us would not have happened had we been mobilised and had we

11 become a formation.

12 Q. So you claim by the end of July 1992, you were still a civilian

13 and you were not mobilised? You claim that?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. You told us how you met the accused Mr. Kunarac on the 23rd of

16 July, 1992, and you said that he was with five or six men, right?

17 A. Yes. He had five or six men with him.

18 Q. And these men were soldiers from Montenegro, weren't they?

19 A. I don't know where they were from, and I did not know them.

20 Whether they were Montenegrins or Bosnians, I don't know that.

21 Q. Did you ever speak with them?

22 A. No. I was with these people for those four days. I watched them,

23 but I did not talk to them.

24 Q. So you spent with them four days and nights, as you say, but you

25 do not speak to them, and you did not hear them speak with Montenegrin

Page 5539

1 accent?

2 A. I did not notice a Montenegrin accent while we were together at

3 any time.

4 Q. You said that you learned the name of Mr. Kunarac, he introduced

5 himself, and you also learned his nickname. What about the nicknames of

6 the others? You learned that the names -- nicknames were Gagi and Miga,

7 right?

8 A. Yes. They called each other by nickname, Gagi, Konta, and so on.

9 Q. Was there also a soldier with the nickname Bane? Do you recall

10 that?

11 A. Yes. Yes.

12 Q. Mr. Kunarac was in charge of this group, wasn't he?

13 A. No, he was not in charge, nor could I notice that he was in

14 charge. He only stood out because he knew about mines and explosives. So

15 he was the first to approach bodies.

16 Q. To which unit did those soldiers belong?

17 A. I did not understand.

18 Q. These soldiers, Kunarac himself and the soldiers who came with

19 him, they belonged to the Bosnian Serb army, didn't they?

20 A. These were volunteers. They had volunteered to help out. This

21 was not a formation. They came to assist the local population. I could

22 not notice in any way that this was a formation. It didn't look like a

23 formation, and five, six men is no formation.

24 Q. But these five, six soldiers who joined the people from Jabuka,

25 they were not the only soldiers on the scene, were they? There were other

Page 5540

1 soldiers as well coming to help, right?

2 A. Later on, the 2nd Battalion soldiers arrived from the area of

3 Previla, as I said.

4 Q. Mr. Kunarac and the few soldiers who came with him, they had cars,

5 didn't they?

6 A. They had a car called Fica, and a Zastava 101 model that they left

7 at Previla. This is what I heard.

8 Q. You didn't see the cars?

9 A. No.

10 Q. You described how they were dressed, and you mentioned that they

11 had weapons. They had automatic rifles, didn't they?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Mr. Kunarac had a radio transmitter to keep in contact with higher

14 authorities, right?

15 A. I did not notice a radio transmitter that would have been in

16 Mr. Kunarac's possession.

17 Q. Witness, your brother was killed during the attack, you told us,

18 right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And he was killed while the group of people were fleeing to

21 Previla, right?

22 A. Yes, he was killed. He was ambushed at a place called Rosulje,

23 and that's where he was killed.

24 Q. But you didn't see that happen. You only found the body later,

25 right?

Page 5541

1 A. Yes, that is correct.

2 Q. But all the time while you were searching for the body, you were

3 quite -- you were afraid that he was killed, right?

4 A. Yes. I assumed that he had either been killed or captured and

5 taken, because we could not find him.

6 Q. That means you were quite under a shock, right? And you were

7 afraid all the time to find your dead brother?

8 A. Yes, that is correct. I was in a shock throughout that time.

9 Q. And you did not register all details because of this state of

10 shock you were in, right?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. But today you claim that despite your shock, you registered where

13 Mr. Kunarac was all the time beginning from the morning of the 23rd of

14 July to midnight the 26th of July?

15 A. Yes, because I barely slept throughout that period because of this

16 shock I was in.

17 Q. You did not claim this constantly being together with him when you

18 gave your statement to Defence counsel. Let me cite from -- let me just

19 say what you said at that time. You simply mentioned that after this

20 attack on your village, Dragoljub Kunarac came to the area and was among

21 you. You did not mention that you were constantly together with him

22 actually all the time, during day and night.

23 A. You know what it was? When I gave the statement, I thought it was

24 just a pure formality, and no details were mentioned. But when I was

25 asked for details, then I mentioned all the details as they happened.

Page 5542

1 Q. You claim that you were searching together with him and other

2 persons for the dead bodies and buried them; right?

3 A. Yes, that is correct.

4 Q. After the initial attack on the 23rd of July, the Muslims had

5 retreated; right? There was no fighting at that time anymore.

6 A. Yes. They retreated towards Grebak and there was no more combat

7 after the 23rd of July.

8 Q. So that means all you did was searching and burying dead bodies

9 during four days?

10 A. Yes, all four days. It was a humanitarian search. We were just

11 looking for dead bodies in order to bury them.

12 Q. And you described to us that it is a rather huge, hilly terrain

13 with a lot of woods; right?

14 A. That is correct, yes.

15 Q. And you subdivided the group of searchers to be able to search

16 this difficult terrain; right?

17 A. Yes. We split up into smaller groups, but the distances were not

18 great because of the configuration of the terrain. All the groups were

19 within the earshot of one another.

20 Q. And Mr. Kunarac and his men moved from group to group, as you told

21 us, when a body was found; right?

22 A. Yes. We were all split into groups and his men were not all

23 together. They were mixed in with the groups of locals.

24 Q. When Mr. Kunarac went to different groups because a body was

25 found, you did not go with him, did you? You continued to search in your

Page 5543

1 group, didn't you?

2 A. I was in the presence of Kunarac. And if a body was found, they

3 would call for Kunarac to approach the body first.

4 Q. And you did not go with him, because you are not a specialist on

5 mines; right?

6 A. I'm not a mine specialist, but I was in his immediate vicinity,

7 because we didn't know where we would find bodies and who would find them.

8 Q. Can you give me just a direct answer: When Mr. Kunarac moved to

9 another group of people searching, you did not go with him, right; you

10 stayed in your search group?

11 A. No. We would go over there because of the burial, because we had

12 to bury a body. We had to dig and bury the body as fast as possible, so

13 we would all go there together.

14 Q. When you slept -- you told us where you slept during these four

15 days and you mentioned that once you slept in a house. And the other

16 days, where did you sleep? Did you sleep in tents or just under the sky?

17 A. Wherever we would find ourselves at night. Under the open sky, as

18 you said. We had no tents or any other equipment for that. We were lucky

19 to have had good weather.

20 Q. According to your account, you met Mr. Kunarac on the 23rd July

21 for the first time; right?

22 A. Yes, on the 23rd of July, between 9.00 and 10.00, in the village

23 of Podstijena.

24 Q. And you said that after the 26th of July you went to Serbia and

25 returned only after a few months; right?

Page 5544

1 A. That is correct.

2 Q. And after your return, you were a policeman and spent most of the

3 war as a border guard; right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. That means you do not know which position the accused Kunarac had

6 in the military system, right, because you didn't see him; right?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Nevertheless, when you -- do you recall that you were interviewed

9 by staff from the Prosecutor's office in February 2000, that is, this

10 year? Do you recall this?

11 A. I remember it very well. It was in Srpsko Sarajevo.

12 Q. And when you gave this statement, you said you knew that

13 Mr. Kunarac did not have any military unit.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How could you know? You just told us that you did not observe him

16 during the war because you were a border guard and you were partly not in

17 Foca municipality at all. How could you then make such a statement?

18 A. I must have heard from other people, for instance, that Kunarac

19 had his own unit or that he was -- that he was a commanding officer of

20 some kind, because that would have been -- that would not have been a

21 small matter.

22 Q. Did you never hear about the Zaga Detachment being very brave,

23 liberating Rogoj Pass?

24 A. No. So far as I know, Mr. Kunarac did not have his own detachment

25 or any kind of formation.

Page 5545

1 Q. Witness, Mr. Kunarac helped you and other people in Jabuka a great

2 deal; right?

3 A. Yes, that is correct.

4 Q. And he helped you, in particular, to find your brother; right?

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. That means you are thankful; right?

7 A. Yes.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No more questions, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination?

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

11 Re-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

12 Q. You said that the conflict in the territory of Foca municipality

13 broke down on the 6th of April?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You said the village of Jabuka was attacked on the 23rd of July?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you tell us: In the village of Jabuka in that period, until

18 the 23rd, were there communications? Did you have running of water,

19 electricity? What were the conditions like?

20 A. The power and telephone were cut immediately, but we did have

21 water.

22 Q. Does that mean that you did not have communications with the

23 outside world?

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. When you gave your statements to Mr. Kunarac's investigator, were

Page 5546

1 you asked whether you were with Kunarac all the time or whether you were

2 with Kunarac in July? In other words, were you asked to explain in detail

3 how much and when you saw Kunarac?

4 A. I believe that I have explained exactly how those four days went

5 by.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. No more questions.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Witness, for giving evidence to

8 the Tribunal. You will be led out of the witness box.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 MS. KUO: Your Honours, for the following witness the Prosecution

11 wanted to make sure a protective measure was in place with regard to an

12 individual that this witness is likely to mention, at least by first name.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Is that individual -- does the individual have a

14 pseudonym?

15 MS. KUO: Yes. We believe that this is in reference to Witness

16 87, and we are willing to stipulate that, in fact, that is the theory of

17 the Defence.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the answer from the Defence, if the

19 named individual in the evidence of this witness is 87? And the Defence

20 should make sure that they refer to -- they mention the pseudonym to the

21 witness so that no mistakes are made.

22 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. On several

23 occasions the name of Witness 87 will be mentioned, and the Defence has

24 prepared a document which will be shown to the witness and it will be

25 asked that the witness not mention this person by name but by pseudonym.

Page 5547

1 And I think that should be enough. And we would also like to -- we will

2 also ask that it be entered into evidence.


4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness, and please make the solemn

6 declaration.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please sit down.

12 Yes, counsel.

13 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Examined by Mr. Kolesar:

15 Q. Good morning, Witness.

16 A. Good morning.

17 Q. First of all, I would like to inform you that the Trial Chamber

18 has agreed to provide you with protective measures so that your name will

19 not be mentioned. You will also get face distortion and you will be given

20 a pseudonym, and that pseudonym will be DK.

21 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Can the usher please show the

22 witness this piece of paper and confirm that this is her name and her

23 personal data?

24 A. Yes, these are my personal data.

25 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the Trial

Page 5548

1 Chamber that this document be entered into evidence under seal.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number, please?

3 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is going to be Defence

4 Exhibit D155 under seal. I repeat, this exhibit will be marked as D155,

5 and it will be under seal.

6 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation].

7 Q. In the course of our exchange, we probably will be in a situation

8 to mention a witness' name. We cannot mention the name of this witness

9 but a pseudonym.

10 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher to

11 please show the witness this piece of paper.

12 MS. KUO: Your Honour, if we could ask the witness not be shown

13 this piece of paper because the piece of paper, in fact, shows the full

14 names of the witness and that is not the information the witness has. The

15 witness only knows the first name, and we don't want this person to be

16 revealed the full identity of the person she's about to refer to. All

17 the --


19 MS. KUO: Yes.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. In which case, the counsel has to direct the

21 witness that only the first name -- only the first name should be shown

22 and the pseudonym.

23 If the usher can go back to counsel. Counsel can simply write in

24 longhand just the first name and put the number. That can be done very

25 easily. So that the witness is informed that -- yes.

Page 5549

1 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] The only problem is that it is not

2 identical to the copies that you have in your possession now, and my

3 apologies to both the Trial Chamber and the Prosecutors' bench for this

4 mistake.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the piece of paper numbered? Because as

6 you say, the name is not spelled the way it is on this other one. Can we

7 have the number, Madam Registrar?

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document will be marked as

9 D156, and it will be placed under seal.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

11 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

12 Q. So you told me that the personal data that were provided to you on

13 that piece of paper I had given you were correct?

14 A. Yes. My personal data are the same as the ones that were shown to

15 me.

16 Q. Can you show me what -- can you tell me what education you have?

17 A. I graduated from law school.

18 Q. Where did you work before the war, during the war, and what do you

19 do today?

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5550

1 Q. I omitted to say something in the beginning. When I ask you

2 something, my question needs to be interpreted, so please do not answer

3 right away. We need to give the interpreters time to interpret it, so

4 please pause before giving your answer.

5 Can you tell me, where did you live during the war?

6 A. (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Can I now please ask the usher to

9 show the witness a photograph. This is a photograph which we had seen

10 before, and it has been exhibited as D38.

11 Q. Have you seen the photograph and can you recognise it?

12 A. Yes, I see it. (redacted). This is

13 the building where I lived during the war.

14 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Can I please have the witness be

15 shown another photograph which has not been presented before. It is -- it

16 was -- this picture was taken at the same time when the other picture was

17 taken. This was in the spring of this year, spring of 2000. There are

18 copies for Your Honours and for the Prosecution as well.

19 Q. Can you tell me, is this the same building?

20 A. Yes, this is the same building.

21 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This photograph will be marked as

22 Exhibit D157 of the Defence.

23 A. This is the same building, that is, part of the same building,

24 showing the entrance where my apartment was.

25 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

Page 5551

1 Q. And now I'm going to show you a third photograph.

2 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] This photograph has been exhibited

3 before. This was -- it was exhibited as D38 -- 39.

4 Q. Will you please comment on this photograph too? Is this a more

5 detailed photograph of the entrance to your building?

6 A. Yes. This is a picture of the entrance to where I lived.

7 Q. Can you tell me, on which floor did you live?

8 A. (redacted).

9 Q. Perhaps it is easier if we count down from the top of the

10 building. What floor would that be? How many floors were there above

11 you?

12 A. (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 Q. (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 A. Yes, they do.

17 Q. You said that during the war, throughout the war, you lived in

18 Foca.

19 A. That is correct. During the war, throughout that period, I lived

20 in Foca.

21 Q. What were the living conditions, given that there was a wartime

22 situation?

23 A. The living conditions were wartime conditions. They were

24 difficult. There were shortages of practically everything.

25 Q. How about electricity? Were there shortages there too?

Page 5552

1 A. The situation with electricity was very bad.

2 Q. Why?

3 A. There were periods when we did not have any power for seven days

4 in a row.

5 Q. Why were these disruptions? What caused them?

6 A. It was due to war operations. The power lines and whole network

7 were damaged.

8 Q. What was the situation like with the supplies of water?

9 A. The situation was similar to the situation with the power supply.

10 Q. And were there shortages?

11 A. Yes. For several days in a row or in certain periods of time,

12 several hours at a time during the day, we did not have running water.

13 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have a slightly

14 different schedule today. I don't know whether that means that we would

15 take a break at 11.00.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The break will be normally at 11.00 and

17 continue at 1130 hours. The lunch break will be shorter today. The lunch

18 break will be 1300 just up to -- just before 1400. The afternoon session

19 will begin at 1400 hours because the Judges have a Plenary at 1500 hours

20 today. So we will have a one-hour sitting in the afternoon, or close to a

21 one-hour sitting in the afternoon. So the break will be at 11.00.

22 Before we adjourn, I just wanted to just correct the record, that

23 Exhibit D155 and D156, both under seal, pertain to one and the same

24 person, Witness 87.

25 We'll break off now and continue our proceedings at 1130 hours.

Page 5553

1 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Before we proceed, I just -- I was informed by the

4 registry assistant that there is a mistake in the transcript. I referred

5 to 155 and 156 as -- which are under seal, as referring to one and the

6 same person, Witness 87. 157 is not under seal and it doesn't refer to

7 Witness 87.

8 I'm sorry. Mr. Kolesar, please continue.

9 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. My last question before the break was: What was the situation

11 with water supply? Since you were born in Foca and you have lived there

12 all your life, do you know where the source of the water supply is in

13 Foca? I'm speaking about the period of the war.

14 A. The source of the water supply is located outside the town,

15 somewhere before the -- behind the settlement of Brod, not far from the

16 place called Mjesaja.

17 Q. Please tell me: At that time was there any rumour around the

18 town -- was there any fear among the population that this water supply

19 network might be damaged?

20 A. Yes, there were rumours that the water supply network could be

21 damaged and that the water could be polluted.

22 Q. Did the municipal and military authorities take any measures with

23 regard to that? Do you know anything about this?

24 A. Well, I heard, that is, rumour had it around town, that the

25 municipal and military authorities would work to secure the source, that

Page 5554

1 is, the place where the water supply network originates.

2 Q. What was the supply of fruit, vegetables, fresh meat?

3 A. Well, I can say that in that period there was no such supply to

4 speak of, because these foodstuffs were virtually non-existent.

5 Q. And as for cosmetic articles for personal hygiene, can you say

6 anything about that?

7 A. There were great shortages of such articles. Some basic articles

8 which are indispensable every day were totally lacking.

9 Q. What was the reason for this shortage, in your opinion?

10 A. I think the reasons were combat operations, blockades of roads,

11 disrupted communications with neighbouring towns from which these articles

12 could be brought.

13 Q. Do you know a person named Radomir Kovac?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 A. (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 Q. Who is older, you or him?

20 A. I am older.

21 Q. Did you visit each other? Did you socialise?

22 A. Certainly. We called on each other, we socialised since we were

23 children.

24 Q. Do you know what kind of education he has?

25 A. Radomir graduated from the secondary school, the high school.

Page 5555

1 Q. And after that?

2 A. After high school he enrolled in the university to study

3 architecture, I believe.

4 Q. In which town, in which city did he study, and did he ever

5 graduate?

6 A. He was a student in Sarajevo, and as far as I can remember, he

7 never graduated from the university.

8 Q. Do you know, while he was studying in Sarajevo, did he do anything

9 else?

10 A. As most students at that time, if I remember correctly, he had

11 some side jobs. As far as I know, he worked in trade of some kind.

12 Q. Did he do his military service?

13 A. No, he didn't.

14 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I would like the Trial Chamber to

15 allow me to enter into evidence the report and opinion of the military

16 commission, number 10 to 18, of 19th April 1994, finding Radomir Kovac

17 unfit for military service, and this was marked as Exhibit 109. This

18 finding is in the possession of both the Trial Chamber and the

19 Prosecution.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: You mean it was one of the documents filed by the

21 Defence?

22 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct. And it was

23 marked as Exhibit -- Defence Exhibit 109 during the testimony of

24 Mr. Radovic -- I'm sorry, Radomir Cvetkovic.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I understand that it was one of the documents

Page 5556

1 filed by the Prosecution, but it hasn't been admitted into evidence yet.

2 So if you are asking that it be admitted into evidence, let's hear what

3 the Prosecutor has to say.

4 Any submission from the Prosecution? Maybe, for the sake of

5 clarity, maybe you'd -- can the man -- can the usher please assist? Can

6 you just take that document and show it to the Prosecutor just to make

7 sure it's the same and correct one.

8 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, I have only a copy in

9 B/C/S.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: What does the document show, Mr. Kolesar?

11 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] We can see from this document that

12 based on the findings, opinion, and report of the military commission,

13 accused Kovac is unfit for military service.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Any submissions by the Prosecution?

15 MS. KUO: Your Honour, we do not object to the admission of this

16 document except to point out to the Court that it's dated 1995, and so

17 we're a little bit dubious of its relevance.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, is it the same date, dated 1995, the

19 one -- the document that you are applying to have admitted?

20 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, it is, Your Honour. The date

21 is 24th of May, 1995.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And the Prosecution were wondering what the

23 relevance is. It's after the material period. He was certified,

24 according to that document, unfit for military service in 1995.

25 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. It says that he

Page 5557












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 5558

1 is unfit for military service, and he did not serve, and he is no longer

2 on military records.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. But all that happened in 1995, and this case

4 is about 1992. So if he was found unfit, if he was no longer in the

5 military -- because that was 1995, long after the conflict we are

6 discussing in this Trial Chamber. So it's not relevant.

7 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] If you deem it irrelevant, I will

8 withdraw my motion, but in the opinion of the Defence, whether somebody's

9 fit for military service is relevant from the moment when he becomes bound

10 to serve in the army until the moment when he's relieved of that duty. We

11 believe it's a significant document. If you find it irrelevant, I will

12 withdraw it.

13 JUDGE HUNT: The document does not suggest that it was directed

14 back to 1992, does it?

15 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No.

16 JUDGE HUNT: It's directed -- sorry. Go ahead. I'm sorry. Go

17 ahead.

18 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Your Honour. But under

19 current military rules, after a certain age, you become bound to serve in

20 the army. The man goes before a military commission, who finds him fit or

21 unfit. If he is found unfit, his duty is postponed and a new date of

22 physical examination is set.

23 JUDGE HUNT: But what is the -- let me just ask you this

24 question: What is the relevance of a finding in 1995 which could have

25 been created by any number of events which occurred after the events we're

Page 5559

1 concerned with? What's that got to do with this case? That's the point

2 the Prosecution is taking.

3 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] If the date is controversial and if

4 this document is irrelevant, in your opinion, we will withdraw it, but our

5 logic is that if he was found unfit in 1995, then he was unfit also in

6 1992. Otherwise, he would have been recruited into the army once he

7 turned 18. But I say again, I do not insist on this, and I withdraw the

8 document.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please go ahead.

10 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Since you are relatives and, as you said, you socialised and

12 visited each other, can you tell us what kind of person he was as a boy?

13 What was his demeanour, what he was like in school, and what were his

14 relationships with his friends and schoolmates?

15 A. Radomir was a good child, well behaved. He was always ready to

16 play. He was popular among his friends. He was popular and well loved in

17 his family. He was an excellent pupil. He was well behaved in school

18 too. There were no incidents in school. And later, as a young man, he

19 was also very decent.

20 Q. Do you know perhaps did he have any conflicts with the law? Was

21 he ever convicted?

22 A. I have no such knowledge. I don't know that he had ever been

23 convicted.

24 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] By certificate of the Ministry of

25 the Interior of the 13th of April, 2000, certifying that Radomir Kovac,

Page 5560

1 son of Milenko, has never been convicted. This document was marked D --

2 or just marked D134. I would like to tender this document into evidence.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution?

4 MS. KUO: We're searching for the document. If it's available

5 from Defence counsel, that might be a faster way to proceed.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Usher, please can you get the document and show

7 it to the Prosecution.

8 Yes. Any submission?

9 MS. KUO: Your Honour, the Prosecution does not object to this.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Yes, it will be admitted. Can we have a

11 number, Madam Registrar, please?

12 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document will keep the number

13 D134, and it was admitted [sic] on the 17th of July, 2000.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Proceed.

15 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 Q. Will you please tell me, how did you, in the family and in the

17 circle of your friends in town, how did you address the accused Kovac?

18 A. We in the family and in the circle of his friends, since early

19 childhood, we called him Raso.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: The Registrar would like to correct some information

21 regarding the exhibit.

22 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Regarding document D134, this

23 document was "presented," not "admitted" into evidence on the 17th of

24 July. It was presented as a Defence Exhibit. It will now, when it is

25 entered into evidence, keep the same number, that is, D134.

Page 5561

1 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 Q. You said you called him Raso.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. He is not referred to here under this nickname. He's referred to

5 as Klanfa. What do you know about that, Klanfa? What do you know about

6 that nickname and when did he get it?

7 A. I wouldn't know who gave him that nickname nor since when he has

8 been called that.

9 Q. Do you know, after parties, political parties, were established

10 somewhere in the 1990s, did he belong to any of the parties which were

11 formed in Foca or in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

12 A. As far as I know, Radomir was not a member of any political party,

13 and when I talked to him, I never felt that he felt an affiliation to any

14 of the parties.

15 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have here a

16 certificate of the municipal board of SDS party of Srbinje, of the 20th of

17 January, 1991 -- sorry, year 2000, certifying that Radomir Kovac has never

18 been a member of the SDS of Republika Srpska. This was just presented as

19 an exhibit, and I would like to tender it into evidence.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Prosecution?

21 MS. KUO: The Prosecution does not object.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number? It is tendered into

23 evidence. Can we have the number, please?

24 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document will keep the same

25 number, D132, as Defence Exhibit.

Page 5562

1 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Also, within the context of this

2 question, I have a certificate of the local board of the Serbian Radical

3 Party, certifying that it has not established in the records that Radomir

4 Kovac is or has ever been a member of the Serbian Radical Party. It is

5 dated 11 February, 2000. It has also been marked for identification as

6 D133, and I would also like to tender it into evidence.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection?

8 MS. KUO: No objection.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will have it received into evidence as an

10 exhibit. And number, please?

11 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The document will keep the number

12 D133 as the Defence Exhibit.

13 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Will you please look around the courtroom and tell us if you can

15 recognise the accused Radomir Kovac among those present.

16 A. Yes. Radomir is behind you, in the middle.

17 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I would like the record to show that

18 the witness identified the accused Radomir Kovac.


20 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

21 Q. When the armed conflict in Foca broke out, when did you see him

22 for the first time?

23 A. I saw him late that summer of 1992, when he moved into a flat in a

24 building where I lived, in the building where I lived.

25 Q. That, as I can see, is a large building with several entrances.

Page 5563

1 In which entrance did he live?

2 A. (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 Q. Do you know on which floor?

5 A. (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I do apologise, but I can hear this

8 noise in my headphones.

9 Q. Tell me, how often did you see each other during this war

10 conflict?

11 A. It depends. Sometimes we would see each other every day and

12 sometimes there would be intervals from five to seven days.

13 Q. Tell me, please: What kind of clothes did he wear?

14 A. Well, Radomir, like most soldiers, at the beginning had

15 olive-green/grey trousers and that kind of a shirt as well. And later I

16 saw him in camouflage uniform.

17 Q. Tell me, please: Except when he went out on assignment, did he

18 have weapons, a rifle, a gun, a knife?

19 A. No. No, I did not notice either a knife or a pistol. I did not

20 see him carrying any weapons.

21 Q. Were there any military insignia, anything that would show rank on

22 his military uniform?

23 A. On Radomir's uniform there were no insignia, anything to show rank

24 or something like that, because he was an ordinary soldier.

25 Q. Did he perhaps belong to the military police?

Page 5564

1 A. Well, no, he did not belong to the military police. He was an

2 ordinary soldier. Because the military police had some insignia, I don't

3 know exactly which kind, but they had white belts around their waists and

4 similar insignia.

5 Q. Did he have a white belt around his waist?

6 A. No. No. Radomir did not have a white belt around his waist.

7 Ordinary soldiers did not wear anything like that.

8 Q. Do you know since when he took part in military operations within

9 armed units in Foca?

10 A. I did not know exactly from when Radomir started participating in

11 armed units, but having worked as an investigator, I found out that he

12 took part from the 17th of April, 1992.

13 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do have a

14 certificate issued by military post code 7141, dated the 2nd of February,

15 2000, certifying that the accused Radomir Kovac did take part in military

16 operations from the 17th of April, 1992 within an armed unit which later

17 got the name the Independent Detachment of Dragan Nikolic. This was also

18 presented here to the Court and to the Office of the Prosecutor and it was

19 marked as D112, and I would like to have it admitted into evidence.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The date is the 2nd of

21 June, 2000. Sorry.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: What is the correct date of that document,

23 Mr. Kolesar?

24 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] The 2nd of June, 2000.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Any submission from the Prosecution?

Page 5565

1 MS. KUO: No objection, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have it -- it's admitted into evidence. Can

3 we have the number, Madam Registrar, please?

4 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document will retain number

5 D112 and it will be a Defence Exhibit.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please go ahead.

7 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I also have a certificate of this

8 same military post code, now dated the 4th of July, 2000, which shows that

9 on the basis of existing documentation, the Independent Detachment Dragan

10 Nikolic worked within the tactical group Foca. And there are two more

11 paragraphs, but I don't want to use more of the Court's time. This same

12 document was given to the Prosecutor and the Court and it was marked as

13 D135, so I would like to tender it into evidence now, please.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution?

15 MS. KUO: We have no objection, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: It's tendered into evidence. Can we have the

17 number, please?

18 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document will retain number

19 D135 and it will be a Defence Exhibit.

20 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

21 Q. In response to one of my previous questions, you described his

22 behaviour to us as a boy and as a young man before the war. I would now

23 like to ask you kindly to tell us about his behaviour, his general

24 disposition, everything that characterises a person, during the war

25 operations.

Page 5566

1 A. During the war operations as well, Raso kept the same kind of

2 behaviour, just like before. He was sociable, cheerful, always ready to

3 crack a joke, even in those difficult times. He encouraged us in the

4 family with his optimism that this state of war would be over soon and

5 that things would be as they were before.

6 Q. (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. With the assistance of the usher, I'm going to show you yet

11 another photograph. Would you please look at it and tell us whether that

12 is also part of the Lepa Brena Block and whether that is the entrance --

13 whether that is your entrance?

14 A. This is the Lepa Brena Block of flats but this is a different part

15 of the building or, rather, this is the middle part of the building. This

16 is not the entrance where we lived.

17 Q. As for these apartments that can be seen on this photograph, how

18 does one enter them, from the yard or from the street?

19 A. These are apartments that are entered from the other side or,

20 rather, from the yard because only our entrance faced the street, on this

21 side, like where this photograph is.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, we won't be needing the

24 photograph any more, so could you please give it back to me.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Is it one of the exhibits, Mr. Kolesar?

Page 5567

1 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I do apologise.

2 I forgot. I omitted to say that this is a Prosecution Exhibit, registered

3 as number 11. This is photograph 407/401, and it was already admitted

4 into evidence.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. You may proceed.

6 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 Q. (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 A. Yes, I did. I was in his apartment a couple of times.

10 Q. (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Your apartment and the apartment that was used by the accused

14 Kovac, are they identical apartments? Do they have the same structure and

15 the same number of square metres in terms of area?

16 A. Yes. Those are identical apartments, both in terms of area and in

17 terms of the layout of the different rooms.

18 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, do you know who he used this

19 apartment with?

20 A. He used this apartment, as far as I know, with some girls.

21 Q. Do you know how many girls there were?

22 A. Well, there was his girlfriend and another girl.

23 Q. Do you know whether he used that apartment only or whether he

24 lived elsewhere too, like at his parents' place and somewhere else?

25 A. Yes. In addition to this apartment, Radomir also stayed at his

Page 5568

1 parents'. He had lived with them before.

2 Q. You say that he used this apartment with some girls, and you say

3 that there were two of them. When did you first see them?

4 A. I can't remember exactly when, but this was towards the end of the

5 summer of 1992 when Radomir moved into that apartment. During those days,

6 I noticed two girls on the terrace, and I would see them later.

7 Q. Could you describe them a bit more? Can you describe what they

8 looked like?

9 A. One girl -- and Radomir told me that she was his girlfriend -- was

10 tall. She had dark brown hair with her hair cut in a bob. If I may say

11 so, she's about as tall as I am, and her build is similar to mine, while

12 the other girl was shorter. She was smaller in build, more petit. She

13 had blonde hair, with a short haircut, light-coloured eyes.

14 Q. You said that you saw them then on the balcony. Did you see them

15 later, and if you did, where did you see them and how often did you see

16 them?

17 A. I would see them later, too. Like the other people who lived in

18 the building, at that entrance, I would meet them in the hall, in front of

19 the building, on the way to the store. They would come to my apartment.

20 Things like that.

21 Q. Who would come to your apartment?

22 A. Both of them would come. The girl whose details are here on this

23 piece of paper would come more often.

24 Q. Tell us the number.

25 A. The number is 87.

Page 5569

1 Q. Tell me, why did they come?

2 A. Well, you know, there was a war going on. There was no

3 electricity for seven-day spans. Hardly anyone had a coal-fired stove.

4 In this particular building, no one did or almost no one, because before

5 the war, there was central heating in the building. So the tenants had no

6 place to cook. These two girls would come in order to prepare coffee for

7 themselves or for Radomir, or tea, or some food.

8 Also, since basic supplies were limited, they would come to borrow

9 something or -- so that I would give them some food, coffee, sugar, salt,

10 and the like.

11 Q. I did not fully understand what they could use for heating up food

12 or whatever at your place.

13 A. I forgot. I had a stove that was a gas stove, and later on, I had

14 a solid-fuel stove.

15 Q. I see. How often did they come? And it was my understanding that

16 both of them would come.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How often?

19 A. Well, they did not come every day. Probably when they needed to.

20 Sometimes two or three days in a row and sometimes a few days would go by

21 in between. Mostly when Radomir would go somewhere.

22 Q. You are closely related and you lived at the same entrance to this

23 building. Do you know whether the accused Kovac was wounded during the

24 armed conflict?

25 A. Yes, I know that. Radomir was wounded. This was sometime in

Page 5570

1 November or December 1992.

2 Q. Do you know whether he was in hospital?

3 A. Yes. Radomir was in hospital. He was hospitalised because of

4 that wound.

5 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have the letter of

6 discharge, number 4549, of the regional medical centre in the street of

7 Proleterskih Brigada in Foca, the surgery ward, which shows that the

8 accused Radomir Kovac was in hospital from the 25th of December until the

9 29th of December, 1992, and that he reported for a check-up on the 11th of

10 January, 1993. These are documents that were already presented to the

11 Court and were marked as D110, and I would like to have them tendered into

12 evidence now, please.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution, any submission?

14 MS. KUO: No objection.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. They will be tendered into evidence. Can we

16 have the numbers, please?

17 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document will be number D110

18 and it is the Defence Exhibit.

19 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I also have a certificate of

20 military post code 7041, Foca, of the 2nd of September, 1993, which shows

21 that the accused Radomir Kovac, as a member of the army of Republika

22 Srpska, in the wartime unit of Dragan Nikolic, the Serb army of Foca, was

23 wounded on the 24th of December, 1992 in Repetitor Rosanica. That is also

24 a document that was presented to the Prosecution and to the Court and it

25 was marked as number 111, so I would like to have it admitted into

Page 5571

1 evidence, please.

2 MS. KUO: No objection.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the numbering? It's admitted into

4 evidence.

5 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The document will retain number

6 D111 as a Defence Exhibit.

7 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Tell me, please: During his stay in hospital, did those girls

9 whom you said you saw continue using that apartment?

10 A. Yes, they continued using that apartment.

11 Q. In that same period, that is to say, during the period while he

12 was in hospital, did you notice or did you see Kovac's mother coming to

13 the apartment?

14 A. Yes, I did. I would see Radomir's mother. She did come during

15 that period. She would bring them some food supplies. And I also saw her

16 before that.

17 Q. After Radomir left the hospital, how did he move about?

18 A. For the most part, he was not allowed to move and he walked on

19 crutches, and he favoured one of his legs.

20 Q. (redacted). Do you

21 recall an event of 6 January 1993? For the Orthodox Christians, this is

22 an important date. This is Christmas Eve. And I'm referring to the

23 apartment that Kovac was using at the time.

24 A. I remember that date very well, because Radomir had been at his

25 parents. That was on the Christmas Eve. And a custom is that after the

Page 5572

1 Christmas wreath is brought home, people come out of their homes. That

2 night we had no electricity. I was in the apartment with my children and

3 with several other children who lived in the same entrance. They were my

4 friends' children.

5 Suddenly, I could hear noise and voices in the hallway or in the

6 stairwell on the floor above me. There was some banging on the door,

7 banging on the door of the apartment. I was scared. I did not know what

8 was going on. I was alone with children. And at that moment I heard, in

9 the room where I was staying at the time, banging that came down the

10 radiator pipe, the central heating pipe. I knew that those girls were

11 alone in the apartment and I thought that they were in some kind of a

12 danger.

13 I opened the window, and the girl whom we are calling 87 told me

14 that I should call Radomir to come because somebody wanted to break in the

15 door, that is, to forcibly enter their apartment, and she was panicked. I

16 told her that I would do so and I called -- I made a call to Radomir's

17 apartment, that is, the apartment of his parents. And I told him that the

18 girl, 87, had asked me to call him, that they were in danger because

19 somebody was trying to break into their apartment. He replied to me that

20 he was on his way.

21 When I hung up, the noise continued. I don't know how much or how

22 little time passed, but I heard someone running or jumping up the

23 staircase. He was hobbling on his crutches. And I forgot to say that I

24 could hear that somebody had already broken into the apartment.

25 I was afraid that some tragedy might occur. I was afraid for

Page 5573












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 5574

1 Radomir as well, because I knew that he had been wounded and I did not

2 know what was going on in the apartment above. At any moment I expected

3 some kind of a shot or something like that. I must say, that for a

4 moment, I regretted having called him, because I would have felt

5 responsible had something happened to him.

6 Soon after his arrival in the apartment, the girl 87 came to me.

7 She was upset, and when I asked her what was going on, she told me that

8 everything was all right. Radomir disarmed this soldier, because there

9 was one soldier there, and they are now verbally discussing something.

10 And Radomir had sent her -- had sent me to make some coffee for him. I

11 asked her, "How much coffee?" --

12 Q. Very well. I'm sorry that we are not going to go into that. When

13 did you first see the accused Kovac after this incident on Christmas Eve?

14 A. I saw him several days later, perhaps a week later.

15 Q. Did you talk to him about this event, this incident? And what did

16 he tell you?

17 A. Yes, we talked about it, for the most part what I have already

18 said about my fear for him, and he told me, "Don't worry." He said that

19 he had problems at the headquarters because of this, because he had

20 disarmed this soldier.

21 Q. What happened next to Radomir, when his wounds healed?

22 A. As before, he went on duty.

23 Q. Do you perhaps know whether he was kept in detention?

24 A. I did hear that he -- that is, people said that he had been in

25 detention.

Page 5575

1 Q. In connection with this incident?

2 A. I believe that it had to do with this event, because he had taken

3 away a pistol from this soldier and apparently never returned it.

4 Q. Can you tell me, when did you stop seeing these girls?

5 A. I don't know exactly the date, but this was some time in the

6 spring. February or March 1993.

7 Q. Did you hear what people were saying around Foca, what had

8 happened to them?

9 A. I remember because several -- I was gone for several days, and

10 after my return, I heard stories in the neighbourhood and in town that

11 these girls had been killed, that is, that Radomir had killed them.

12 I saw Radomir during that period and asked him whether this was

13 true. He told me that it was, and then I asked him to look me in the eyes

14 and tell me, and he said, "Well, of course I did not kill them." I asked

15 him where they were, and he replied that some Montenegrins had taken them

16 out of town. That is, that he had to pay them a certain amount of money

17 for this service.

18 Q. While we're at it, this woman whom we're referring to as Witness

19 87, during your stay with you, and you explained why she was coming and

20 what she was doing, why was she mentioning Montenegro?

21 A. Yes. Once, in a conversation, she told me that Radomir was going

22 to move them to Montenegro, as she put it. That Radomir was supposed to

23 establish contact with some Montenegrins who were asking for money, and as

24 soon as he finds this money, he would take them out of town.

25 Q. You told us that you saw the mother of Mr. Kovac, who was bringing

Page 5576

1 food to these girls. Did you also give food to these girls?

2 A. I did. I believe that I have said so, that I was giving them food

3 whenever they asked, and a few times I sent them some food by my child. I

4 sent my child up to the apartment to give them some food.

5 Q. (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 A. (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 This girl called me up and told me that Radomir had gone to the

11 front and that she and her friend had misplaced the key to the apartment,

12 that this girlfriend of hers was also sick, and they had no medicine. She

13 asked me to get some for them. So we improvised.

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted) a bag in which I placed some metal boxes of tea, soup, and

16 some syrup I think I had that my children were using or -- and some

17 tablets and some other food.

18 Q. (redacted). Can you tell me, how did

19 they behave in this apartment? Were they noisy? Were they bothering

20 other residents? Were they creating incidents or anything?

21 A. No. They behaved like everyone else. I don't know in what way --

22 what they were doing there, but there was no unusual noise or raised

23 voices or anything.

24 Q. You know quite well, being a native of Foca, that there were a

25 number of mosques in Foca. What do you know about the destruction of

Page 5577

1 mosques in Foca, if you know anything, and what do you know?

2 A. I don't know much about that. I know that during the combat

3 operations, like many other structures in the town, they were destroyed,

4 but I don't know anything specific about the destruction of mosques.

5 Q. Let me follow that up. Do you know anything about the burning

6 down of houses during the war operations in Foca in April 1992 and

7 subsequently?

8 A. As I said, most of the structures were burned down during the

9 operations at the very beginning, in the initial months, April and May,

10 during the combat operations and fighting in the town. And I don't know

11 much, because for a month during that period, I was away from Foca with my

12 children, and after I came back, I saw houses burnt down. And in my

13 parents' neighbourhood, I heard stories that some Serbian houses had been

14 burnt down and that later on the Muslim ones were burnt down as well.

15 Q. If I understood you correctly, you were away for a month?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Does that mean that when you came back, the combat, the fighting

18 in Foca had stopped?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you have any knowledge about the accommodation of refugees in

21 Foca?

22 A. There were refugees. I don't know much. There were refugees from

23 the surrounding villages, both Serbs and Muslims. They were put up in the

24 hotel and in some other facilities. I don't know which ones.

25 Q. You said you know a little about that. Did you know anything

Page 5578

1 about the conditions under which they lived?

2 A. Well, you see, we all lived under difficult conditions. I assumed

3 that it was hard for them too.

4 Q. Let me ask you something specific in regard of the refugees. Do

5 you know whether in that period, among the refugees who were Muslim, were

6 there people from Mjesaja and Trosanj, men, women, children? Do you know

7 anything about that?

8 A. I remember that in town, people were saying that there were

9 refugees from that area too, that is, from that village.

10 Q. At that time, did you hear that anything unusual was going on in

11 those facilities or specifically were there instances of rape of women who

12 were accommodated in these centres?

13 A. Personally, I did not hear. That is, at that time, I had small

14 children and I was caring for them. As I said, it was a wartime

15 situation. There were shortages of all kinds. And I was focused on

16 providing for the children somewhat normal living conditions, if you can

17 say such a thing in the wartime situation.

18 Q. Do you know anything about the corrections centre in Foca, what it

19 was used for during the war?

20 A. The corrections centre existed even before the armed conflict in

21 Foca, and I assumed that it had the same use as it had before the war. I

22 don't know any details.

23 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have another four or

24 five questions, and I see that we have reached the point when we usually

25 break.

Page 5579

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Because today we'll have a short lunch break,

2 we'll continue our proceedings at 1400 hours this afternoon.

3 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.























Page 5580


2 --- On resuming at 2.07 p.m.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Good afternoon, Witness.

4 We'll continue, Mr. Kolesar, with the examination-in-chief. You

5 did say you have only four questions.

6 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Another four, after consultation

7 with the accused.

8 Q. The last thing I asked you was whether you knew what was happening

9 in the penal and correction centre, Foca. As I said, after consultation

10 with the accused, I will have to come back to this period and these girls

11 with a few more questions.

12 Do you know where they were from and how it came about that they

13 resided at the apartment of the accused Kovac?

14 A. Well, from my conversations with these girls, they told me on one

15 occasion -- specifically, the girl number 87 told me that she was from

16 Mjesaja, or the environs, whereas her friend was from Miljevina, or the

17 area around Miljevina, from one of those villages. They moved into this

18 apartment with Radomir. Radomir brought them.

19 Q. If I understood you correctly, that's what they told you.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, let me tie up your two answers. In your previous answer you

22 told me that you saw Kovac's mother bringing food and you said you gave

23 them food sometimes as well. Would I be right in concluding that Kovac

24 did not supply them all with food, or he did that too?

25 A. You should not conclude that, because he brought food as well. I

Page 5581

1 used to see him in front of the building, because I was often outdoors

2 with my children. I often saw him carrying plastic bags with groceries,

3 with tinned food.

4 Q. Thank you. After that conversation with Kovac when he first said

5 he had killed them and then he said he hadn't, that they had left for

6 Montenegro, did you discuss this with him on another occasion?

7 A. I did once, before he got married. I couldn't say exactly when.

8 He told me, in response to my question where they were, that the girl

9 number 87 had written him a postcard or even a letter. I think it was a

10 letter. I don't remember from where, whether it was from abroad or not.

11 I can't remember. And on another occasion after he got married, sometime

12 in 1994, I believe, or around the New Year, I was at his place, and his

13 wife, who is still his wife, said, jokingly, displaying that postcard,

14 "Here is his girl 87 writing to him."

15 Q. Please tell me: Did the accused Kovac have brothers or sisters?

16 A. Yes. He had one brother, an elder brother.

17 Q. What was the occupation of his brother?

18 A. I can't remember exactly what his job was when the war broke out,

19 but he was a taxi driver.

20 Q. What was his name?

21 A. His name was Milomir. We used to call him Micko.

22 Q. Was he older or younger than Radomir?

23 A. I have said this already, I believe. He was older than Radomir.

24 Q. Did they look alike, as they were brothers?

25 A. Yes, they looked very much alike, and the people who didn't know

Page 5582

1 them very well would often confuse them.

2 Q. Did Radomir take active part -- did he serve actively in the army

3 of Republika Srpska? I'm sorry. Not Radomir. I mean Micko.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is he still alive?

6 A. No. Milomir committed suicide. I can't remember when that

7 happened exactly.

8 Q. Were there any rumours? Did anyone know why he did that?

9 A. That happened after an incident, after the murder of one family in

10 Montenegro, and immediately after that he committed suicide. And some

11 people in our town seemed to correlate these two events, his suicide and

12 the murder of the family.

13 Q. Will you please tell me, in conclusion, since these two girls used

14 to visit you, do you know whether there were any other girls, apart from

15 them, in that apartment?

16 A. I don't know that there were any other girls in the apartment with

17 them, at least none that they -- none that lived there. But I heard, in

18 my conversations with them, that they were visited by a girlfriend.

19 Q. I don't understand what "visited" means. Does it mean she used to

20 spend the night or several nights, or she just made social calls or what?

21 A. She made social calls. She would come for a cup of coffee.

22 Q. And finally, since these girls used to come to your place often

23 and all the other things you described, was it your impression that their

24 movement was restricted and that they were held captive?

25 A. No, that was not my impression nor do I think that their movement

Page 5583

1 was restricted. They moved around freely.

2 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, while presenting

3 evidence, I made a mistake, and I would not like my client to suffer the

4 consequences. When I presented the opinion report and findings of the

5 military commission, admitted under number 109, D109, certifying that the

6 accused was unfit for military service, that was a mistake. Because

7 during the break, when I consulted my client, I found out that in 1980, he

8 served in the army in Novo Mesto, that after doing his military service he

9 was a member of the Territorial Defence in the reserve, and that he was

10 mobilised in 1992 as a member of the Territorial Defence, and as the

11 report which I refer to certifies, he was later found unfit for military

12 service in 1995.

13 I apologise for my mistake, and if you believe that this document

14 is valid and could be relevant to sentencing, I now kindly ask that it be

15 admitted into evidence.

16 Practically, I would like to add, he has been unfit for military

17 service from the date of this report, which is the 24th of May, 1995.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution, what's your submission?

20 MS. KUO: Your Honours, the Prosecution is of the position that

21 this is not exactly relevant for sentencing. On the other hand, if the

22 Defence wishes to make those arguments and that this is admitted solely

23 for that purpose, we wouldn't object. However, we would also like to get

24 some clarification about the representations just made by Mr. Kolesar

25 about the involvement of his client in the activities in 1992. Are those

Page 5584

1 to be taken now as admissions that, in fact, he was involved and so forth

2 on those particular dates?

3 JUDGE HUNT: I thought that the witness has given some evidence

4 about that in 1992 already, after Mr. Kolesar had attempted to put this in

5 before, the witness gave evidence that he was involved in the army in

6 1992.

7 MS. KUO: Very well. Then if that's taken to be true, we have no

8 objections.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Kolesar. To be admitted into evidence, the

10 Trial Chamber will decide on the weight to be attached to it.

11 Can we have the number?

12 It may be relevant for sentencing, Mr. Kolesar, as you said.

13 Can we have the number?

14 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is document D109, as a

15 Defence Exhibit.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please proceed.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

18 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have already asked

19 my last question. Thank you. I have no more questions.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Any other counsel? No?

21 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honours, we do not have any questions of this

22 witness.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Prosecution, cross-examination.

24 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo:

Page 5585

1 Q. Witness, you have known Radomir Kovac since childhood; isn't that

2 right? (redacted).

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 Q. (redacted)

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. And you knew that he had the nickname Klanfa or Klamfa, correct?

7 A. No, that is not correct. I did not know that he had the nickname

8 Klanfa. I said that we called him Raso.

9 Q. (redacted), you

10 learned that he had this nickname, correct?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. Could you just clarify whether it's Klamfa with an "M" or Klanfa

13 with a "N", or were both used?

14 A. I could not clarify that, whether it is a "N" or an "M". I did

15 not think about it.

16 Q. Where did Radomir Kovac's parents live?

17 A. His parents lived in Foca, in the street called Samoborska.

18 Q. (redacted)

19 A. I do could apologise indeed to you and to the Court. I'm not very

20 good at this kind of thing, distances, I mean. But between 300 and 500

21 metres, perhaps.

22 Q. (redacted)

23 A. (redacted)

24 Q. (redacted)

25 A. (redacted)

Page 5586

1 Q. So you moved in -- I'm sorry.

2 A. Yes?

3 Q. You testified earlier that you had left Foca at about the time

4 that the fighting broke out, right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So you left Foca before the 6th of April, 1992, correct?

7 A. I left Foca just before the 6th of April. A few days before.

8 Q. The reason you left Foca is that you knew that it would be

9 dangerous to stay, correct?

10 A. That is not correct. I said that I had small children, and I

11 noticed during those days that there were no children in the yard, no

12 children of my Muslim neighbours, and that is the reason why I left town

13 for a brief period of time.

14 Q. Are you saying that there were children of your Serb neighbours

15 around but no Muslim children? Is that what you're saying?

16 A. Both. Both the Muslims and then also the Serbs, not all of them

17 though, took their children out of town.

18 Q. So the Serbs -- you would agree that Serbs were taking their

19 children out of town before the 6th of April, 1992? Yes?

20 A. No. No. I said both.

21 Q. There were no Serb children -- let me leave that then.

22 Where were you living before you left Foca in April of -- when

23 exactly did you leave Foca? What date?

24 A. I wanted to add something. A few minutes ago when you asked me

25 whether I lived in the Lepa Brena building, I did live in the Lepa Brena

Page 5587

1 building, but in a different entrance before the war. As for this

2 apartment, I moved into that at the time that I already mentioned.

3 Q. So you were already living in the Lepa Brena building when you

4 left Foca, correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What date did you leave Foca?

7 A. I can't remember exactly.

8 Q. When did you return to Foca?

9 A. At the beginning of May. At the beginning of the month of May,

10 1992.

11 Q. And you returned to Foca because you knew that the fighting was

12 over and you felt it was safe to return; correct?

13 A. I returned because we were asked to come in the company where we

14 worked. We had a work obligation.

15 Q. When you returned to Foca in the beginning of May 1992, did you

16 return to your previous apartment, the one you had left?

17 A. Yes, I did return to my apartment.

18 Q. Was that apartment damaged by the war activities?

19 A. I don't understand.

20 Q. When you returned to your apartment, was there damage to your

21 apartment?

22 A. It was not damaged.

23 Q. How long did you stay in that apartment before you moved to

24 another apartment, to the Lepa Brena building?

25 A. I don't know exactly. Not long. The apartment that I moved into

Page 5588

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 Q. So when you moved into that apartment, you didn't actually take

5 over the apartment; (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 A. I lived in that apartment. I left my apartment.

8 Q. Were any of the apartments in the Lepa Brena building damaged by

9 the war, as far as you can tell?

10 A. They were damaged, but one could hardly notice.

11 Q. They were modern apartments; correct?

12 A. I don't know what you mean by that, "modern apartments."

13 Q. They were nice apartments, right? In fact, (redacted)

14 means pretty. That is not the formal name of the building, but a name

15 that people gave it because it was considered to be a nice building, good

16 to live in; wouldn't you agree?

17 A. In that sense, yes, they were nice.

18 Q. (redacted) lived in that apartment, you visited her,

19 did you not?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. Did you know who lived upstairs from her?

22 A. I did.

23 Q. Who lived in that apartment directly above (redacted)

24 apartment?

25 A. A family lived there. I don't know their last name, but they were

Page 5589

1 Muslims.

2 Q. And what happened to that family, do you know, that they were no

3 longer living there?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. Isn't it true that when you came back from Foca -- I'm

6 sorry -- came back to Foca, that the Muslims in Foca had either been

7 expelled, left, or arrested? Isn't that right?

8 A. That is not correct, because many Serbs had left town as well.

9 Q. I'm not asking you about the Serbs, Witness; I'm asking you about

10 the Muslims. Were there Muslims left in Foca during the fall of 1992?

11 A. Yes, there were.

12 Q. Were there Muslims living in your apartment building, in your

13 entrance, at any rate?

14 A. I can't remember exactly.

15 Q. (redacted), Radomir Kovac moved into that apartment

16 that used to belong or was inhabited by the Muslim family, you -- nobody

17 expected that family to return, did they?

18 A. No. No, it's not that way.

19 Q. (redacted), Radomir Kovac simply moved in, didn't he?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In fact, he put his name "Klanfa" in Magic Marker right on the

22 door to show that he lived there, did he not?

23 A. It is only later, right after he moved into the apartment, that I

24 saw that sign on his door, "Klanfa."

25 Q. Now, you mentioned that you came back to Foca because of work

Page 5590

1 obligations. Does this mean that you were working through the summer and

2 the fall of 1992?

3 A. Yes, I did work.

4 Q. Were your children in school?

5 A. No, they were not in school, because they were very young.

6 Q. Were the schools operating, though, in Foca?

7 A. Yes, they were operating.

8 Q. Who took care of your children during the daytime when you were at

9 work?

10 A. My mother.

11 Q. Did your mother live with you in that flat?

12 A. No. I took my children to my mother's place.

13 Q. How many days a week did you work?

14 A. I worked throughout the week, for five or six days. It depended

15 on whether the sixth day was a work day or not.

16 Q. And in the evenings you were home in your flat, generally, with

17 your children; right?

18 A. Yes. In the afternoon, after work, I was at my home; not

19 generally, but all the time.

20 Q. After Kovac moved into the flat (redacted), you saw him

21 often; correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 A. (redacted)

Page 5591

1 Q. In early July of 1992, do you know whether (redacted) Kovac wore

2 a black eye patch over one eye?

3 A. I don't remember.

4 Q. When you saw (redacted) Kovac and you mentioned that you were

5 wearing a uniform, he was also armed; isn't that right?

6 A. That is not right. I did not see him armed.

7 Q. You don't know what kinds of weapons he kept in his apartment, do

8 you?

9 A. I don't know whether he kept any.

10 Q. Did you know whether (redacted) Kovac had a telephone in his

11 flat, the flat he was using?

12 A. I don't know. Even if he had one, it was not connected, it was

13 not working.

14 Q. And you also knew that the door to that flat could be locked from

15 the outside, and if you were inside without a key, you couldn't get out;

16 correct?

17 A. If you did not have the key.

18 Q. (redacted) Kovac was not the only soldier who took up residence

19 in the Lepa Brena buildings, was he? There were other soldiers who moved

20 into formerly Muslim flats.

21 A. I don't know that there were other apartments.

22 MS. KUO: If we could have, with the assistance of the usher, this

23 witness shown what should be marked as Prosecution Exhibit 239. This was

24 previously shown to Defence and they've agreed that it is acceptable to

25 show this to the witness. We have copies as well for the Chamber.

Page 5592

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Can I have it numbered, please?

2 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] It is document 239, Prosecutor's

3 Exhibit 239, and it is under seal.

4 MS. KUO:

5 Q. I'm asking you now to look at the name directly before the

6 initials and number DP 1. Don't say the name, but just read it. Are you

7 familiar with that person?

8 A. I'm sorry. Is it the last DP or -- actually, I don't know.

9 Q. The last name on the list.

10 A. No, I don't know her.

11 Q. Isn't it true that there was another soldier that lived in the

12 same flat with (redacted) Kovac, named Jagos Kostic?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. You are testifying here today that there was no other soldier that

15 lived in that flat with Kovac (redacted)

16 A. I don't know that there was.

17 Q. (redacted)

18 (redacted), and over the course of several months while

19 he was there and you were there, you're saying that you have no idea

20 whether there was another soldier living there? Is that your testimony?

21 A. I did not understand you. I'm sorry.

22 Q. Witness, there was another soldier living in that same apartment

23 with (redacted), right, in addition to the two girls you mentioned?

24 A. I did not see him.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, I'm afraid we have to stop. We will

Page 5593

1 continue tomorrow at 0930 hours. As I said, we have our plenary to attend

2 to. We have, I think, two matters to raise. Judge Hunt would like to

3 raise two questions with Mr. Kolesar on the witness for videolink.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Kolesar, this witness that we discussed

5 yesterday, you've referred to again in this confidential request for a

6 videolink conference which was dated yesterday, and it's not clear to me

7 whether the expression "He is having a specialist examination during the

8 relevant time of the trial" means he is being examined or he is examining

9 somebody else. Do you know -- can you answer which it is?

10 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, last night, sometime

11 after 8.00 p.m., I managed, at long last -- it was not easy at all -- to

12 speak to this witness over the telephone, and he mentioned both of those

13 reasons why he could not come, and --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, before you continue, I'm reminded that

15 we should go into private session, because this is a matter which is

16 marked confidential. And maybe in the meantime the blinds can be drawn

17 and the witness can be released, please. We'll move into private session

18 to continue.

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5594













13 pages 5594-5598 redacted private session









22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.55 p.m., to

23 be reconvened on Thursday the 14th day of

24 September 2000, at 9.30 a.m.