Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5599

1 Thursday, 14 September 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Would the registrar please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case IT-96-23-T, IT-96-23/1-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Dragoljub Kunarac, Radomir Kovac, and Zoran Vukovic.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. This morning we are sitting without

10 our colleague, Judge Hunt, due to urgent reasons, and we are proceeding

11 under Rule 15 bis.

12 The Prosecution were cross-examining, so counsel can go ahead.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo: [Continued]

17 Q. Witness, at the time that you moved into the Lepa Brena apartment,

18 in the same entryway as (redacted) Kovac, were you married?

19 A. Yes, I was.

20 Q. And your husband, where was he? Was he living in that apartment

21 also?

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?

24 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is an objection.

25 This is not a relevant fact and -- but the witness has answered, so my

Page 5600

1 objection, I think, has been, in a way, superseded.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Which one? Which question are you objecting to?

3 Whether the husband was living in the apartment with the witness?

4 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: That's perfectly okay, because the Prosecution are

6 trying to find out how many people were living in the apartment with the

7 witness, in view of the evidence from the witness as to how many people

8 she was able to detect living in the apartment (redacted)

9 (redacted). So it's perfectly normal. Your objection is overruled.

10 Counsel, please proceed.

11 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. And just to clarify, how many children were living with you as

13 well?

14 A. I had two children living with me.

15 Q. And both -- how old were they at that time?

16 A. One was 1 1/2 and the other one was between 5 and 6.

17 Q. Again just to clarify, what ethnicity are you?

18 A. I'm of Serbian ethnicity.

19 Q. You were asked some questions by Defence counsel about membership

20 of (redacted) in the SDS. Were you a member of the SDS?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You testified that you worked at (redacted). Was that in

23 the legal department?

24 A. My apologies. If I am a protected witness, I would prefer not to

25 say exactly where I worked. But yes, I was involved in legal affairs.

Page 5601

1 Q. At your workplace, were you familiar with a forestry engineer who

2 worked at that company for many, many years, by the name of Safet Avdic?

3 A. No, I did not know him personally.

4 Q. But you know who he is, that he worked there before the war?

5 A. I knew that he worked there.

6 Q. And you knew also that in May 1992 he was arrested and taken to KP

7 Dom simply for being a Muslim; isn't that right?

8 A. That is not true at all, and I did not know about that.

9 Q. You did not know that one of your co-workers by this name was

10 detained in KP Dom for two years, in the same town where you were living?

11 A. I did not know that. He was a colleague of mine. This is a large

12 company. I did not know that, just as I did not know many other things.

13 Q. When you returned to work at your company, there were only Serbs

14 working, isn't that right; there were no Muslims?

15 A. That is not correct. There were Muslims too. And I have also

16 heard people say around the company that Muslims were coming back to work

17 together with Serbs; in other words, they were responding to the call to

18 return to work duty.

19 Q. And as people returned to work, let's say in May of 1992, Muslims

20 were also being arrested all over Foca and taken away and detained, isn't

21 that right, or don't you know that?

22 A. I returned in May. Most of them returned earlier, in April, and

23 both Serbs and Muslims came back. And I came back in May.

24 Q. I understand that. My question is: Isn't it true that after they

25 came back, Muslims were arrested and detained?

Page 5602

1 A. That is not true, or I don't know.

2 Q. Which is it? It's not true? Do you know it to be a fact that

3 it's not true or are you saying you don't know?

4 A. I don't know. That is to say, I do not know.

5 Q. Yesterday you testified about Kovac, (redacted), having a brother

6 who looked like him. It wasn't his brother that moved into the flat

7 (redacted), was it? (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 A. That is correct, yes.

10 Q. You gave a statement on behalf of the Defence on the 20th of

11 January, 2000 about what you saw while you lived in that -- or what

12 happened while you lived in that Lepa Brena apartment; correct?

13 A. Yes, I did give a statement on the date that you quoted.

14 Q. You signed the statement; correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And in that statement you tried to be as thorough and accurate as

17 possible, because you understood that this was in the course of preparing

18 the defence (redacted); correct?

19 A. I only answered questions put to me by the investigator, and I

20 gave answers to them.

21 Q. Isn't it true that you, yourself, were already working as a

22 Defence investigator in January of this year?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And in fact you took at least two witness statements in December

25 of 1999 when you asked the questions; correct?

Page 5603












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 5604

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So you already knew what was important to this case, didn't you?

3 A. I did not know what was important.

4 Q. You did not know what was important even though you were

5 functioning already as a Defence investigator and had conducted at least

6 two interviews of witnesses; is that what you're saying?

7 A. I'm sorry, but I do not understand you.

8 Q. You made the statement that you did not know what was important in

9 this case, and I'm asking you whether you find it logical that you were

10 already working as a Defence investigator and still claim that you did not

11 know what was important to the case.

12 A. I knew that what needed to be said was what actually happened and

13 to seek answers from persons from whom I knew to take statements on the

14 relevant facts.

15 Q. Witness, when you gave your statement in January of 2000, you said

16 that in the autumn of 1992, you saw one girl on the terrace of your

17 cousin's flat. Not two, one. Isn't that right?

18 A. That is correct, but that was on one occasion. On another

19 occasion, I saw two of them. On one occasion -- that is, the first time I

20 only saw one, I believe, but occasionally I would see two. They were not

21 always together on the balcony. Sometimes there was one, sometimes there

22 were two.

23 Q. In your entire statement that you gave in January of this year,

24 more than two pages single spaced, not once did you mention the second

25 girl that you testified about yesterday in court, did you? You never even

Page 5605

1 mentioned her, did you?

2 A. I do not remember the statement, believe me, but I referred to

3 it. But it was always the girl whom we call 87 who spoke. So I only had

4 dealings with her. And the investigator asked me about her, the girl 87.

5 This is perhaps why I failed to mention the other one.

6 Q. Let's talk about 87. You saw her, right?

7 A. Yes, I did see her.

8 Q. She was 15 years old at the time and looked it, right?

9 A. I don't know how old she was -- I did not ask her -- but she was a

10 young girl.

11 Q. In fact, she was so young that you thought she was too young to be

12 with your (redacted), right?

13 A. It's relative that she was too young. I said when she said that

14 she loved him, that she wished to marry him, understanding the situation,

15 this was perhaps a way for me to put some distance between her and him.

16 Q. (redacted) Kovac was 31 years old at that time, wasn't he?

17 A. I don't know myself how old I was at the time. I did not think

18 about that, so I did not know how old I was or anyone else.

19 Q. You knew that he was at least 30 years old; a grown man?

20 A. Yes, something like that.

21 Q. And girl 87 was young enough still to be in school; isn't that

22 right? To be in high school.

23 A. As I've said, I did not think very much about her age. She was

24 about my height. And girls of that age do get married around that time.

25 They have been doing that forever, older and younger than that.

Page 5606

1 Q. And this girl who was young enough to be still in high school

2 never went to school, as far as you know, while she was in that apartment,

3 right? You said the schools were functioning, but she wasn't going to

4 school, was she?

5 A. At that time, I do not know whether she went to school or not. I

6 did not ask her that.

7 Q. The other girl that was staying with (redacted)

8 (redacted) was only a few years older than girl 87; isn't that right?

9 A. They were approximately the same age. Perhaps she was a bit

10 older.

11 Q. And you didn't find it odd that there were two young girls living

12 (redacted) You thought

13 that was normal, did you?

14 A. Believe me, I did not particularly think about this. These were

15 difficult times, wartime. I had small children. I had obligations.

16 There were shortages; there was no milk. So I did not give that much

17 thought to their situation, nor did I ask them very much about things when

18 they were at my place, especially the girl 87. They spoke only positively

19 about Radomir, that he was attentive, that she loved him, and I did not

20 ask much.

21 Q. These two girls were not the only two girls in your (redacted)

22 (redacted), were they? There were two other girls who were kept there in

23 the fall of 1992, right?

24 A. That is not so, because I am not aware of them being there.

25 Q. There was a girl about 24 or 25 and another girl about 12 or 13

Page 5607

1 years old who were being kept in that apartment in the fall of 1992; isn't

2 that right?

3 A. That is not true.

4 Q. You know that for a fact?

5 A. I did not see them, and I would have had to have seen them.

6 Q. You would have had to have seen them because everybody going in

7 and out the apartment, (redacted), would have to go

8 through the hallway or stairway by your apartment, right?

9 A. But I did not stand at my door watching who was passing by.

10 Q. You just said that you would have to have known --

11 A. I'm sorry.

12 Q. You said you would have had to have known if there were these

13 other girls staying there, and I'm asking you about that. You would have

14 had to have known?

15 A. These two girls, 87 and the other one, never mentioned that there

16 was anybody else in that apartment, two other girls that you just

17 mentioned.

18 Q. That's not my question. My question is: Did you know whether

19 there were two other girls, a 24- or 25-year-old and a very young girl of

20 12 or 13 who were also being kept in that apartment?

21 A. They were not there.

22 Q. And you're absolutely sure of that? You know for a fact that they

23 weren't there? Is that what you're saying?

24 A. That is the fact that I know, that they were not there.

25 Q. (redacted) never asked you to keep any girls in your flat, did

Page 5608

1 he?

2 A. He never did.

3 Q. He never asked you to protect any girls, did he?

4 A. I don't know what you mean by my protecting them.

5 Q. Take them into your apartment to stay with you and take care of

6 them. He didn't do that, did he?

7 A. He asked -- actually, he did not ask. They came to me alone the

8 first time, as I said, for coffee, (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted).

11 Q. Just going back to something you said yesterday. When you left

12 your apartment in the other entryway, in a different part of Lepa Brena,

13 did anyone else move into that apartment?

14 A. I don't know. For a while, there was no one.

15 Q. But you took all your belongings out and moved into the apartment

16 that your sister-in-law used to live in or were you only temporarily out

17 of that apartment?

18 A. I took my personal belongings but nothing else. And throughout

19 this time, I lived in my sister-in-law's apartment, and I never lived in

20 my own apartment.

21 Q. But you left things in your other apartment, the old apartment,

22 right? Yes?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you still had access to that apartment, right, because some of

25 your things were still there; right?

Page 5609

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And as far as you know, it was empty during that whole time;

3 right? No one else was using it.

4 A. There was a refugee from Sarajevo later on.

5 Q. Later on when?

6 A. Also in 1992, later on, sometime in the fall.

7 Q. After you -- (redacted)

8 A. I don't understand. What do you mean, "after he moved in"?

9 Q. In the fall -- when in the fall did the refugees move into your

10 old flat? After November; right?

11 A. Perhaps even earlier. I don't know. I don't remember that well.

12 Q. Yesterday I asked you whether you knew an individual who was on

13 the Prosecution Exhibit 239, the individual identified as DP1. You

14 indicated you don't know him; is that right?

15 A. That is correct. I do not know him.

16 Q. Did you know a person around Foca who was covered in tattoos? You

17 would recognise him immediately if you saw him. His whole body was

18 covered in tattoos. Did you know that person by sight?

19 A. In the war, I saw several such persons, but I don't know whether

20 they had tattoos all over their bodies.

21 Q. I'm talking about somebody with tattoos all over his body, his

22 face, his eyelids. That's a rather unusual appearance, and I'm asking you

23 whether you ever saw that person.

24 A. As I said, I saw several such persons who had tattoos.

25 Q. (redacted)

Page 5610

1 (redacted)

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And isn't it true that (redacted) often brought friends and

4 associates to visit him in his flat?

5 A. Probably his friends came to visit, just as friends were coming to

6 other people, to my place or other places in the neighbourhood, but he had

7 friends.

8 Q. Among the friends who visited him were several soldiers; correct?

9 A. You know, we were not the only tenants in this stairway or

10 entrance. There are a number of people there. So a number of people were

11 moving up and down the stairway. I did not pay much attention of who

12 these people were.

13 Q. How many flats were there on each floor?

14 A. There were two or one, because there were floors in the middle.

15 Q. How many flats were there on your floor?

16 A. Two.

17 Q. How many flats were there on the floor above you?

18 A. Directly speaking, two, but the in-between floor also had two

19 apartments. That is, on the staircase landing level there is an

20 in-between floor. There were also two flats there.

21 Q. So the only flats that were above you where people would have had

22 to go up the stairs past yours, (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 A. Sorry, but I would -- it would take some calculation. Four, five,

25 six.

Page 5611

1 Q. Excuse me. You --

2 A. I apologise.

3 Q. (redacted)

4 A. That's true, but on that second photograph that I was shown, one

5 can see that the Lepa Brena apartment block as such is taller (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted).

9 Q. Witness, I'm not asking you about photographs; I'm asking you

10 about when you were living inside the apartment, okay? And I've asked you

11 what apartments were above yours, (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted) You don't need a calculator

14 for that. (redacted). Is that right?

15 A. I'm sorry, but I have just answered your question. Directly above

16 (redacted), and the -- and in between there (redacted)

17 (redacted). That's why I said it would take me some time to remember. I

18 don't need the calculator, of course.

19 Q. Two or three now, not just two. It's two or three; is that what

20 you're saying?

21 A. I apologise again. I don't know whether it's important whether

22 it's two or three. I can try to remember if it is important.

23 Q. Let's say there are three, Witness. (redacted)

24 (redacted), or at least he was staying

25 there, and there were often soldiers that would come past your apartment

Page 5612












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Page 5613

1 to go upstairs to visit him; right?

2 A. No. I'll say again: I don't know who is going to visit whom when

3 they are entering the building. I haven't seen any such people.

4 Q. Okay. (redacted) You saw him in

5 uniform.

6 A. Yes, I did see him in uniform.

7 Q. You knew he was fighting on occasion at the front; right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Soldiers wear boots, do they not, or heavy shoes?

10 A. Most of the time, yes.

11 Q. He lived directly above you; correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You could hear footsteps upstairs with these heavy boots; correct?

14 A. No, that's not true. I never heard any noise. I never heard any

15 particularly heavy footsteps. I didn't spend all the time in my own

16 flat. I went out to see my parents, I went out on other errands.

17 Q. When you were in your flat, you heard people walking around with

18 boots above your apartment; isn't that right?

19 A. No, that's not true.

20 Q. You never heard anybody walking around upstairs from you?

21 A. I don't know. One can hear shouting, for instance, raised voices,

22 but not heavy footsteps, I think. I never paid enough attention, perhaps.

23 Q. So you heard shouting upstairs and raised voices; yes?

24 A. No, that's not what I said. I did not hear shouting.

25 Q. You mentioned -- if you'd take a look at the paper in front of

Page 5614

1 you, Exhibit 239, there's a name next to DP6. Do you recognise that

2 person?

3 A. No, I don't know that person.

4 Q. You don't know who that person is by sight?

5 A. I don't believe I would recognise this person.

6 Q. I'll ask you, with the Court's permission, to look at the accused,

7 Zoran Vukovic, and I'm going to ask you if you saw him in the building.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The witness can go ahead and look at the

9 accused.

10 Yes, Mr. Kolesar.

11 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] How can the witness look at the

12 accused Zoran Vukovic if this accused has not been identified here in the

13 courtroom? The witness sees three accused. One of them is Radomir Kovac

14 and the other two have not been identified. So how can she identify him?

15 I don't think this question was properly phrased, and I don't

16 think the witness should be asked to do this.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, counsel has mentioned the name of the

18 accused and is simply asking the witness whether she ever saw him, and

19 there's nothing wrong with that.

20 MS. KUO: Just for the record, I'm not asking for her to identify

21 him, but to place the face, whether she had seen that face in the

22 building.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, counsel. Go ahead.

24 MS. KUO:

25 Q. Please look at the gentleman who's sitting from -- if you look

Page 5615

1 from the right-hand side there is a guard in a blue shirt, and sitting

2 directly next to him --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Jovanovic. Yes. I've given you

4 permission. You want to say something?

5 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just for the record,

6 the Defence of Zoran Vukovic also objects to this question, because if I'm

7 following the record, the transcript correctly, the witness was asked to

8 look at the accused Zoran Vukovic.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The witness has been asked to look at the

10 accused Zoran Vukovic.

11 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. But if I followed this

12 correctly, I don't think the witness was asked previously to say whether

13 she knows Zoran Vukovic and whether she can identify that person in the

14 courtroom. I believe we missed a step.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Jovanovic, if you followed what counsel

16 explained later, it is not a question of identifying the accused before

17 the Court, no. The question is not intended for that purpose. It's not

18 for identification purposes.

19 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. But it seems to

20 me that it is somehow implied that the witness knows Zoran Vukovic and

21 that she's asked to look at him, which I believe is an implication that

22 she knows him. She is not being asked to look around the courtroom and

23 say if a person that is present here has been seen by her earlier in this

24 building, but she's asked to look at specifically one person.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Jovanovic, I understand your concern, but

Page 5616

1 I'm explaining that the questions by counsel to this witness in asking her

2 to look at Mr. Zoran Vukovic in court today has nothing to do with

3 identification, and the Prosecution are not going to use whatever response

4 they will get from her towards identification of the accused Zoran

5 Vukovic, no. You can rest assured that it is not for purposes of

6 identification.

7 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, please go ahead.

9 MS. KUO:

10 Q. Witness, do you know the individual or do you understand the

11 individual I'm asking you to look at? From the right-hand side, the first

12 person in the back row is wearing a blue shirt. That's a guard. Sitting

13 directly next to him is an individual who has just raised his hands.

14 We're talking about the same person?

15 A. I know only Radomir Kovac, Raso.

16 Q. The person sitting next to Radomir Kovac, who is also wearing a

17 suit, do you see him?

18 A. I can see that person.

19 Q. Did you ever see that person in the apartment building where you

20 were living, in Lepa Brena?

21 A. I don't remember seeing him.

22 Q. Now, as part of your work as a Defence investigator, you brought

23 in or you were able to identify a certificate yesterday, identifying

24 Radomir Kovac as belonging to the independent Dragan Nikolic unit. Do you

25 remember that?

Page 5617

1 A. In the process of investigation, I did get this information that

2 he belonged to this unit.

3 Q. And you also had information, did you not, that Dragan Zelenovic,

4 Zoran Vukovic, and the person identified as DP1 on Exhibit 239 were also

5 members of the Dragan Nikolic unit?

6 A. No, that's not correct. I was only interested in whether Radomir

7 Kovac was a member of that unit.

8 Q. Did you also learn that the Dragan Nikolic unit is also known as

9 Cosa's Guards?

10 A. No, I don't know that.

11 Q. Now, let's go back to girl 87. You said that you, in fact,

12 learned her name. Don't say her name. But you did learn it, right? And

13 that is obviously a Muslim name; isn't that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You stated that girl 87 came to visit you several times because

16 you had a gas stove and there was often no electricity, correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. There were other people in that same entranceway who had a wood

19 stove, correct?

20 A. Yes, probably.

21 Q. In fact, there were (redacted) of Radomir Kovac living in

22 that entranceway as well; isn't that right? (redacted)

23 A. I think I was, but I'm not sure.

24 Q. One of the witnesses that you interviewed in December of 1999

25 was --

Page 5618












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Page 5619

1 MS. KUO: Excuse me. I beg the Court's indulgence. I withdraw

2 the question.

3 Q. When you saw girl 87, she appeared absent-minded, quiet, and

4 tense; isn't that right?

5 A. No, that's not true. We had a normal conversation.

6 Q. Did she seem happy to you?

7 A. I wasn't happy at the time either. We had a brief conversation.

8 The impression she made was that she was happy with Radomir, and she

9 expressed it by saying that she wished to marry him, that she wished him

10 to take care of her in that way.

11 Q. She didn't seem upset in any way, unhappy?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did she tell you that her father had been killed during a raid on

14 her village?

15 A. I don't remember her saying that, but it seems to me that she once

16 mentioned her mother had been killed in an accident during a Muslim raid

17 while she was going towards their village, something to that effect. I'm

18 not quite certain. And I won't know about the father.

19 Q. And you knew that she had a sister, right?

20 A. She did mention she had a sister on one occasion. I believe she

21 said that her sister was abroad somewhere, in France or something.

22 Q. She never asked you to call her sister in France for her, even

23 though you had a telephone, right?

24 A. No, she never asked that. I would have called if she had asked.

25 Q. You never volunteered, did you?

Page 5620

1 A. I don't know whether it was possible to make international or

2 intercity calls, because I know that for a while it was not possible.

3 Q. The fact is, you didn't try, did you? You didn't try; that's why

4 you don't know.

5 A. She didn't ask me to. Why would I try?

6 Q. Did girl 87 tell you that she and her sister had been detained in

7 a house where soldiers raped them over and over and over again? Did she

8 tell you that?

9 A. No, she didn't.

10 Q. You didn't ask her, did you, (redacted)

11 You never asked her that, did you?

12 A. Believe me, I didn't.

13 Q. (redacted)

14 A. I didn't ask him either. She [as interpreted] simply introduced

15 her as his girlfriend.

16 Q. And you didn't ask anybody how they met, did you?

17 A. That's true. I wasn't interested.

18 Q. Because you weren't giving much thought, as you said, to the

19 situation of that girl; right?

20 A. I wasn't interested.

21 Q. Let's go to Christmas Eve. Christmas Eve is a family holiday;

22 correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. On that evening, you were home with your family in your flat;

25 correct?

Page 5621

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. (redacted), was two or three hundred metres away

3 with his family, his parents; correct?

4 A. At that moment, yes.

5 Q. (redacted) You've

6 testified that his mother brought her food.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 A. That's what he said to me, that he was -- that she was his

11 girlfriend.

12 Q. Yet on Christmas Eve he left his so-called girlfriend alone in his

13 flat without her family while he was with his family; isn't that a fact?

14 A. I don't know for how long he was away at his parents'. Maybe he

15 went out briefly to take something. All I know is that he was upstairs.

16 He did come back when I called him. What were his intentions, I'm not

17 sure.

18 Q. You knew exactly where to telephone him, right, at his parents'

19 house? That's where he was while his girlfriend was alone home, or rather

20 in his flat.

21 A. I knew, because this girl told me he had gone out to his parents'

22 and that I should call him there.

23 Q. You said when you called (redacted) back that you felt almost

24 guilty and that you regretted calling him back because you were afraid

25 what might happen to him because this soldier was banging and had entered

Page 5622

1 his flat; right?

2 A. It was one man, one soldier, and it's true I was afraid about the

3 whole thing. I was afraid for Radomir, but I was also afraid for the

4 girls. If I hadn't been afraid for the girls, I wouldn't have called

5 Radomir in the first place.

6 Q. You said you felt guilty about calling your (redacted) back because

7 you were afraid about what would happen to him, not what happened to the

8 girls. Because if you cared about what happened to the girls, you

9 wouldn't feel bad about calling somebody back, correct, to protect them,

10 as you say?

11 A. I'm repeating again: I was worried about them as much as I was

12 worried about Radomir. I was afraid of anything that might happen,

13 because he cared about them, he was concerned about them, and I was

14 worried he might do something.

15 Q. And this time, this time when you heard banging, you knew it was a

16 soldier; right?

17 A. No, I didn't know that at that time. It's not true. Later,

18 when --

19 Q. You've testified, "It was one man, one soldier, and it's true I

20 was afraid about the whole thing." You knew it was a soldier at the time

21 it happened; right?

22 A. I knew he was a soldier when this girl, 87, came to me and to say

23 that everything was all right and that I should make coffee.

24 Q. Isn't it true that this incident never happened, that what really

25 happened was that an old lady broke down the door while (redacted)

Page 5623

1 was in the KP Dom? Isn't that right? It was no soldier; it was an old

2 lady. And that the person identified on Exhibit 239 as DP6 came and

3 chased her out, saying, "Do you think that Klanfa will never come out of

4 prison?" Isn't that what really happened?

5 A. It is completely untrue, and that is not what happened.

6 Q. It's true, though, isn't it -- it's true, it's a fact, that (redacted)

7 (redacted) was in KP Dom?

8 A. I don't know whether he was in KP Dom. I said he was later taken

9 to task at the command because he had disarmed that soldier or taken away

10 his gun or something like that. That's what I said.

11 Q. You knew that (redacted) was in detention and had been taken to

12 the military command; correct? He was in detention.

13 A. Yes. I'm sorry.

14 Q. And Serb soldiers who had committed or were accused of committing

15 crimes were detained in KP Dom at that time; correct? That's where they

16 were taken.

17 A. They probably were.

18 Q. You mentioned for the first time here yesterday that there was an

19 incident when you gave the girls some food through the window, but you

20 never gave a description of that incident in your statement of January

21 2000, did you?

22 A. Nobody asked me.

23 Q. You gave a description in your statement of January of how you

24 helped the girls by giving them coffee or tea or sugar; isn't that right?

25 A. Yes, and food, other supplies.

Page 5624

1 Q. But you never mentioned this incident which you mentioned in Court

2 about going through the window with the food, right, putting the food

3 through the window?

4 A. I don't remember other things which featured in my conversations

5 with them, but if somebody had asked me at that time, I would have

6 answered. Whereas, yesterday, I was asked by the counsel and I answered.

7 Q. You gave food to the girls because you felt sorry for them;

8 right? You were trying to help them.

9 A. I personally gave many people food, not only them. That is what

10 the times were like. Who had food, shared with others. Perhaps I was

11 given food by others as well.

12 Q. And the reason you had to give the girls the food through the

13 windows was there was no way for you to get inside the apartment and there

14 was certainly no way for them to get out of the apartment; isn't that

15 right?

16 A. At that moment they said that they had lost the key. I did not

17 think about breaking down the door or something like that. They asked me

18 to give them food that way, whereas on other occasions they would come and

19 get food from me or I would bring it to them.

20 Q. The fact is, the girls were locked into that apartment; isn't that

21 right?

22 A. That's not right.

23 Q. You mentioned yesterday about Montenegro and how the girls were

24 taken to Montenegro. Isn't it true that a soldier in the Serb army at

25 that time could go to Montenegro easily, without restrictions?

Page 5625

1 A. I don't think they could have. That's not true.

2 Q. If a soldier had an obligation, such as a trial in Niksic, are you

3 saying he wouldn't be able to go to Montenegro to attend it?

4 A. I don't know what kind of obligation this is all about, but it

5 would not be easy.

6 Q. So it wouldn't be possible to go to Montenegro as a Serb soldier.

7 Is that what you're saying?

8 A. I don't know what you mean by that. I'm sorry, I don't quite

9 understand.

10 Q. If a Serb soldier wanted or needed to go to Montenegro, isn't it

11 true that he could?

12 A. I don't know whether he could. I'm a civilian. I don't know.

13 Q. There's no need for (redacted) Radomir Kovac, who was a soldier

14 fighting with the Serb forces at that time, to pay someone else to take

15 these girls to Montenegro if what he was interested in was protecting

16 them, was there?

17 A. I'm sorry. Can you put your question a bit more precisely?

18 Q. If (redacted) Radomir Kovac were really interested in simply

19 taking the girls to Montenegro for their own protection, he could have

20 done that himself; isn't that right?

21 A. He probably could not have gone.

22 Q. And your reason for that? Why do you say that?

23 A. I'm telling you I don't know how. I'm a civilian.

24 Q. You said just now he probably couldn't have. You're very will to

25 take that guess, and I'm asking you on what you base that probability.

Page 5626

1 Why do you think he probably could not have when you don't know?

2 A. If you are referring specifically to this situation, the two

3 Montenegrins took them away for compensation, then I imagine he would have

4 taken them himself had he been able to do so. Why would he pay someone

5 else to do that? If that's the kind of trip you have in mind.

6 Q. Isn't it true that there was money paid for these Montenegrins to

7 take the girls to Montenegro but that it was the two Montenegrins that

8 (redacted), not the other way around?

9 A. I don't know. I don't know that it was that way. On several

10 occasions when we talked, the girls stated that fact to me, that Radomir

11 intended to get money by selling something so that some Montenegrins would

12 take them out, because nobody wanted to do it without a compensation.

13 That is what they told me about that possibility and that is what he told

14 me, that that was the way he got them out of town.

15 Q. You've confirmed that (redacted) Kovac himself started the rumour

16 that he killed the girls, if I heard your testimony correctly, right?

17 A. That is not right. He did not start these rumours personally, to

18 the best of my knowledge. There were rumours, but who started them, that

19 I don't know.

20 Q. He did not do anything to stop those rumours or to say publicly,

21 "I did not kill those girls. I know where they are. They're in

22 Montenegro." He didn't do that, did he?

23 A. I don't know whether he knew about these rumours and to what

24 extent and whether these were mass rumours or individual rumours. I don't

25 know whether he denied that or not or whether it was necessary to do so.

Page 5627

1 Q. Witness, in your testimony yesterday, you told us that you told

2 (redacted), "I've heard you killed the girls. Is that true? Look me in

3 the eyes." You remember saying that here in court, right?

4 A. I remember.

5 Q. And his reaction, when he heard this rumour, was not to get angry,

6 as a person accused of murder normally would, but he smiled, according to

7 you. Do you remember that? It's in the transcript.

8 A. I remember that. Probably he did not believe that story or what I

9 told him, that that was going on. That's the way it seemed to me, that he

10 did not believe it.

11 Q. So he knew that there was this rumour going around because his

12 reaction was not surprise but to smile when he was accused of murder.

13 A. I did not accuse him of murder.

14 Q. Are you implying, through your testimony, that this rumour about

15 killing the girls was used as a cover to protect them, the girls

16 themselves, to ensure their safe passage to Montenegro? Is that what

17 you're saying, what you understood?

18 A. I don't know. At that time, they were already in Montenegro. So

19 I don't know whether that was a way to protect them or ...

20 Q. Isn't it true, Witness, that the fact that (redacted) was not

21 surprised or angry at this rumour was that it was a very easy way for him

22 to hide the fact that he had sold the girls, that among his friends it was

23 better to have killed them than to have sold them for money? Isn't that

24 true?

25 A. That is not true.

Page 5628












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 5629

1 Q. You described in your testimony that there was a postcard which

2 was allegedly written by girl 87, sent from somewhere, that you saw,

3 correct?

4 A. That is correct. And it was not "allegedly" but it was actually

5 sent. I saw that postcard. And I heard about the letters from Radomir,

6 that he got them before the postcards.

7 Q. The letters. How many letters were there?

8 A. I said yesterday, and as far as I know, before he got married,

9 during one of our conversations, he said that girl 87 wrote him a letter

10 or a postcard. I think it was a letter the first time. And when he was

11 already married, on one occasion at his place, in his apartment, his wife

12 showed us who were present there a postcard and said, "Look. His 87 has

13 written to him."

14 Q. In your testimony yesterday, you were very clear that it was from

15 somewhere abroad. You don't know where. Correct?

16 A. I said that it seemed to me that it was from abroad.

17 Q. But you didn't know where?

18 A. I said that I do not remember. I still cannot remember. I think

19 the postcard might have been from France, but I don't remember exactly.

20 Q. In your statement, you said it was definitely from France. Isn't

21 that right? Didn't you say that in your statement?

22 A. I probably said that.

23 Q. The fact is, there was no postcard, was there, from France or

24 anywhere?

25 A. The fact is that there was a postcard, but I'm really not sure

Page 5630

1 where it was from. Perhaps -- I mean, I don't remember having said, but

2 perhaps because girl 87 told me that she had a sister in France and that

3 she would go to that sister, perhaps that remained in my subconscious,

4 that that is why the postcard was from France.

5 Q. Witness, the fact is, you knew exactly what was going on in (redacted)

6 (redacted) flat upstairs from you, didn't you?

7 A. I don't know what you're referring to. I didn't know anything

8 that was going on.

9 Q. You could hear yelling and banging and probably even the rapes,

10 couldn't you?

11 A. No, that is not correct. I did not hear any of that.

12 Q. You were in your apartment every afternoon and every evening. You

13 testified to that yesterday. You said "always." Not "usually,"

14 "always." You were always in your flat in the afternoons and evenings,

15 and you heard all this that was going on, didn't you?

16 A. I do apologise, but this word "always" is quite impossible. I had

17 young children. I went out into the yard with the children. But I meant

18 that I was there, that I lived there. It is impossible to be in one's

19 apartment all the time. One goes out into the yard, one goes shopping, to

20 see friends for a moment or two.

21 Q. You heard, and probably even saw, soldiers coming and going from

22 your (redacted) apartment directly upstairs from you, didn't you? You can

23 hear footsteps in the staircase, and the footsteps continue into the flat

24 above yours; isn't that right?

25 A. That is not right. I did not hear anything, nor did I pay any

Page 5631

1 attention to who was passing by. We're not the only people living in that

2 entranceway.

3 Q. When you heard the rumours that (redacted) had killed those two

4 girls, that didn't surprise you, did it?

5 A. That surprised me a great deal, and I did not believe it, and

6 that's why I asked him, because I know that he would tell me the truth.

7 Q. The fact is, you knew (redacted) Kovac and his associate, Jagos

8 Kostic, were keeping two young girls as sex slaves in the flat (redacted)

9 (redacted); isn't that right?

10 A. That is not correct. It is a fact that I did not know any such

11 thing.

12 Q. You knew that those girls were locked up and only the men decided

13 whether they can come or go; isn't that right?

14 A. That is not right.

15 Q. Those girls never came and just visited you on their own, did

16 they?

17 A. They did come on their own to visit me on several occasions, as I

18 already said. I do apologise. Radomir never came with them to my place.

19 They always came on their own.

20 Q. The fact is, the only time those girls were ever in your apartment

21 was one time when Kovac brought them there; isn't that right?

22 A. That is not right.

23 Q. You may have been trying to protect your children, and on occasion

24 you may have felt sorry for the girls and given them food, but the fact

25 is, you didn't do anything to protect or save those girls from what they

Page 5632

1 were going through, did you?

2 A. I don't know what they were going through, and I don't know how

3 else I could have protected them.

4 Q. You are the Defence investigator in this case, correct, or one of

5 the Defence investigators?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You know that (redacted) is facing very serious charges in this

8 Tribunal, don't you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You were asked by the Defence to work on behalf of (redacted) by

11 taking witness statements and doing other investigations; isn't that

12 right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And in fact, that's what you did; correct?

15 A. What do you mean, "And in fact, that's what you did"?

16 Q. You took statements from witnesses and investigated?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you were paid for this work; isn't that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And all this, your job, in fact, is to help (redacted), Radomir

21 Kovac; isn't that right?

22 A. This is not my job. I did not do that so that I would be paid,

23 but because I was asked to tell the truth as to what happened, and that

24 concerns my testimony both yesterday and today.

25 Q. The fact is, you have been paid to help (redacted), Radomir

Page 5633

1 Kovac; isn't that right?

2 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Kolesar.

4 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] The witness already answered this

5 question on several occasions, and I see no reason why to put this

6 question yet another time. The witness said that what she did as an

7 investigator was paid and that she is here for a different reason, and I

8 don't see why that question would be put to her over and over again.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Counsel?

10 MS. KUO: It appeared that the witness was backing off from that,

11 and I just wanted confirmation that she, in fact, has been paid.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: For working as an investigator?

13 MS. KUO: For working as an investigator on behalf of (redacted).

14 Q. The answer is yes, isn't it?

15 A. You did not say this precisely. I worked as an investigator and I

16 was paid for what I did. As concerns my testimony, what I'm saying

17 yesterday and today, that I'm not doing for money and I'm not paid for

18 doing that.

19 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour. No further questions.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination, Mr. Kolesar?

21 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Just one question, Your Honour.

22 Re-examined by Mr. Kolesar:

23 Q. As you worked as an investigator in the case of the accused

24 Radomir Kovac, who did you receive instructions from? Who would you hear,

25 and concerning what circumstances, and what would you do?

Page 5634

1 A. I received instructions concerning that from his Defence counsel,

2 from you, sir.

3 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

4 questions.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination? None.

6 Thank you very much, Witness, for giving evidence to the

7 Tribunal. You are released. You may leave the witness box. But wait

8 until you are guided.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 [Trial Chamber confers with legal officer]

12 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm wondering what's happening with the next

13 witness.

14 [Trial Chamber confers with registrar]

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness. Please make your solemn

17 declaration.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please sit down.

23 Yes, Counsel.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel's microphone is not on.

25 Examined by Mr. Kolesar:

Page 5635

1 Q. Good morning. Since my microphone was not on, I'll have to say it

2 once again. Good morning.

3 A. Good morning.

4 Q. First of all, I wish to inform you that the Court has granted your

5 request for being a protected witness. Your facial image has been

6 distorted. Your real name and surname are not going to be spoken. When

7 necessary, we will use your pseudonym, which is DL.

8 I'm going to give you a piece of paper now and then you are going

9 to answer my questions.

10 A. Yes, I confirm this.

11 Q. The name that is written here, is that your name and surname?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is the date of birth, the date of your birth?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And is that place of birth, your place of birth?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I would like to ask that this be

18 admitted into evidence, and I would like the Court and the Prosecution to

19 see this, and, of course, I would like for it to remain under seal.

20 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document will be marked D158,

21 Defence Exhibit D158, and tendered under seal.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, counsel, you may proceed.

23 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have just looked at

24 my watch and I've seen what time it is. It's break time. So shall we

25 start now or shall we start after the break?

Page 5636

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I suppose we'll start after the break. I have

2 to explain to the witness that we've just called her and we have to have a

3 break. It is not easy in these proceedings to change the times because of

4 the many, many supporting services. So we will have our break now and

5 continue at 11.30.

6 I would like to point out that this afternoon we are pressed for

7 courtrooms. We may have to shorten our lunch break again, depending on

8 what information we get later. We may have to start the afternoon session

9 at 1415 today in order to go through our witnesses.

10 We'll break now until 1130 hours.

11 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Kolesar. We will proceed with

14 examination-in-chief of the witness.

15 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Witness, can you hear me?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now that we have confirmed your identity, can we please have the

19 witness see Exhibit number 156. We may be in a position to mention a

20 protected witness' name, and we would not want to reveal the witness'

21 identity. I have a piece of paper.

22 Before I start asking you questions, let me point out two things

23 to you. First of all, we both speak the same language and it is easy for

24 us to communicate, but my questions and your answers are being

25 interpreted. So please do slow down when answering my questions. So

Page 5637












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 5638

1 first wait until my question is interpreted and then proceed with your

2 answer. Second, I know that you're in poor health, that you have a heart

3 condition. So should anything happen to you, should you feel unwell,

4 please do tell us immediately so that we can take appropriate steps.

5 Will you please tell me something about your education?

6 A. I graduated from the elementary school.

7 Q. Where did you live before, during, and after the war?

8 A. In Foca.

9 Q. Throughout this time?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Which means that you continue to live there today?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What is your profession?

14 A. I work as a waitress.

15 Q. Where did you work?

16 A. In the hospital.

17 Q. Where do you work now?

18 A. In the building, Lepa Brena.

19 Q. Where did you live during the war?

20 A. Also in Foca.

21 Q. Did you live in the same apartment where you live now?

22 A. No. It was another apartment.

23 Q. And during the war you also lived in the Lepa Brena building?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I'm going to show you a photograph. Please try to recognise it if

Page 5639

1 you can.

2 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Can the usher please show it to the

3 witness.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Is it an exhibit already or is it a new photograph?

5 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. My apologies.

6 This is the Exhibit D38, which has been used previously in the

7 proceeding.

8 Q. Were you able to identify it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What is the picture of?

11 A. This is a picture of the Lepa Brena building.

12 Q. I'm going to show you another photograph, please.

13 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] This is the exhibit which has

14 previously been introduced as D39.

15 Q. Can you identify it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What is this?

18 A. This is the Lepa Brena building.

19 Q. Can you tell me where your apartment was, which entrance?

20 A. On this entrance but on the opposite side.

21 Q. Can you please lay the picture on the ELMO? Please show us the

22 exact entrance.

23 A. [Indicates]

24 Q. This is the lower end of the building; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5640

1 Q. On which floor was your apartment?

2 A. (redacted).

3 Q. Was it overlooking the street or the backyard?

4 A. (redacted).

5 Q. Can you tell me what the design of the floors was? Were all

6 floors at the same level or was it split-level?

7 A. One part was lower.

8 Q. So if I understood you correctly, between the floors there was a

9 so-called in-between floor?

10 A. There was a lower one, yes.

11 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I would like to show the witness

12 another photograph. It's Prosecution Exhibit 11, photograph 407401.

13 Q. Can you see what this photograph is showing?

14 A. This is also the Lepa Brena building.

15 Q. Where do you enter to come to the apartments that you see on this

16 photograph?

17 A. (redacted).

18 Q. Are you sure?

19 A. Yes, I am sure.

20 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you. We don't need to use the

21 photographs anymore. They can be returned.

22 Q. Before the war, did you know the accused Radomir Kovac?

23 A. No, I did not.

24 Q. When did you meet him? Have you met him, and when did you meet

25 him? Where did you meet him and when?

Page 5641

1 A. When he moved into this building.

2 Q. And when did he move in?

3 A. In late summer of 1992.

4 Q. Did he move into an apartment in the same entrance where your

5 apartment was?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. On which floor was his apartment?

8 A. On the sixth.

9 Q. Let me try to be more specific. Above his apartment were there

10 any other apartments?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And how were the windows of his apartment oriented? To the street

13 or the backyard?

14 A. The street.

15 Q. Did you ever enter that apartment?

16 A. No, I did not.

17 Q. And do you know with whom he lived there in that apartment?

18 A. There were some girls there.

19 Q. How many? How many girls?

20 A. There were two.

21 Q. Only two, no more?

22 A. Only two.

23 Q. Do you know whether the accused Kovac took part in the armed

24 conflict as a member of the army of Republika Srpska?

25 A. No. He was there just as a regular soldier.

Page 5642

1 Q. Does that mean that you saw him wearing a uniform?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How often did you see him?

4 A. Well, not too often.

5 Q. You said that he was a regular soldier. How was he dressed?

6 A. He was wearing an SMB uniform.

7 Q. Did he have any military insignia on that uniform?

8 A. No, I did not see any.

9 Q. And was he armed? Did he carry a knife, a pistol, a rifle?

10 A. No, I did not notice anything.

11 Q. According to you, in your opinion, was he a regular soldier or was

12 he perhaps a military policeman?

13 A. In my opinion, he was a regular soldier.

14 Q. In your opinion, could you tell the difference between the regular

15 soldier, regular army members, and military police?

16 A. I could not notice any difference.

17 Q. I don't mean so much in reference to him, but when, for instance,

18 in town, when you would see uniformed people, could you distinguish

19 between the military police and the regular army soldiers?

20 A. I did not pay very much attention to that.

21 Q. Can you tell me whether in November 1992 Mr. Kovac came to your

22 apartment and asked you for a favour?

23 A. Yes, he did.

24 Q. What type of favour was in question?

25 A. I used a stove that was using wood. He asked for coffee.

Page 5643

1 Q. Can you describe a little bit?

2 A. There were girls there, so he asked if the girls could make coffee

3 when I was not around.

4 Q. When did you see these girls for the first time?

5 A. Sometime around that period, in November.

6 Q. Would they frequently come to your place?

7 A. No, not very frequently.

8 Q. Can you tell us approximately how many times?

9 A. Perhaps five or six times.

10 Q. I know that quite a bit of time has passed since November of 1992,

11 but could you perhaps describe these girls? How did they look?

12 A. Well, they were medium height, dark-brown hair, bob. One was a

13 bit heavier set.

14 Q. Did you know their names?

15 A. No, I did not.

16 Q. So how did you address one another?

17 A. Just saying "you."

18 Q. Did you know that one of them was Kovac's girlfriend?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. And did you perhaps know their ethnic background? Did you know

21 that they were Muslims?

22 A. Yes, we did.

23 Q. You mentioned that they came to make coffee. Did they say

24 anything about their relationship with Radomir Kovac?

25 A. Yes. One of them said that she had fallen in love with Radomir.

Page 5644

1 Q. Excuse me. I don't know which one you're referring to.

2 A. The one with brown hair, who had a bob haircut.

3 Q. Your apartments were separated by several floors. Do you know

4 anything about an incident on the Christmas Eve of 1993?

5 A. No, I don't. I heard some noise.

6 Q. And did you step outside to see what was going on?

7 A. No, I did not.

8 Q. But did people in the building talk about this?

9 A. Yes, people were saying that somebody had come and banged on the

10 door.

11 Q. Whose apartment?

12 A. Radomir's.

13 Q. And did you ask him later on what had happened?

14 A. Well, later on, there was a story that somebody had come and

15 banged on the door of the apartment where the girls were.

16 Q. No further details?

17 A. No further details.

18 Q. Since you were neighbours, did you know at some point that

19 Mr. Kovac was wounded?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you place it in time?

22 A. That was December, around St. Nikolas Day.

23 Q. Did you see him wounded?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Where was the wound, and how did he move about?

Page 5645

1 A. He used crutches to move about.

2 Q. And where was the wound?

3 A. It was a leg wound.

4 Q. What happened later with these girls? Do you know anything about

5 it? Did he tell you something about it?

6 A. Later, the girls left. On one occasion I asked him about them,

7 and he told me that they had gone to Montenegro.

8 Q. Until when did he stay in this apartment?

9 A. I think until 1994, 1995.

10 Q. During the period of time when he lived there, what impression did

11 you gain of him?

12 A. He was a good neighbour.

13 Q. What did he do in that apartment? Did he use it as all other

14 residents? Was there anything special about it? Was there any noise,

15 raised voices coming from it?

16 A. I did not notice anything.

17 Q. Can you tell me this, please: While these girls were there, did

18 you see him leaving the building with them to go to town or just to leave

19 the building?

20 A. Yes. I met them and they were leaving the building.

21 Q. Did you also meet him in the hallway?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you notice him carrying food in shopping bags or something

24 else?

25 A. Yes. I saw him carrying bags.

Page 5646

1 Q. Can you look around in the courtroom and tell me if you can

2 identify someone as Radomir Kovac, (redacted)? Did you

3 identify him?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could you tell me who it is?

6 A. He is number four.

7 Q. Fourth from which side?

8 A. From the right-hand side.

9 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Can the record please reflect that

10 the witness recognised the accused Radomir Kovac. Your Honours, this

11 concludes my questioning.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, we're just wondering, when she said the

13 fourth from the right, from her right hand or from the right side in

14 relation to the witness or -- can we just have a little explanation?

15 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I understood because she also

16 pointed with her hand, but ...

17 Q. Can you please tell us, is it the fourth from the door or from the

18 window?

19 A. Fourth from the door, second from the police officer.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The witness has identified the accused Radomir

21 Kovac.

22 Cross-examination. Maybe other counsel wanted to ask questions.

23 Any questions?

24 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honours, we do not have any questions for this

25 witness. Thank you.

Page 5647












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Page 5648

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination, please.

2 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo:

3 Q. Good morning, Witness.

4 A. Good morning.

5 Q. Witness, the apartment in Lepa Brena that you've been describing

6 to us, when did you move into that?

7 A. 1992.

8 Q. It was in the summer of 1992; wasn't it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What precisely? What month?

11 A. Sometime in August.

12 Q. Where were you living before that?

13 A. I lived in Foca.

14 Q. But not in the same building; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What was the reason for your moving?

17 A. (redacted)

18 Q. And when you moved into that apartment, were there belongings of

19 the previous residents still in the apartment?

20 A. No.

21 Q. In that same entranceway where you lived and Mr. Kovac lived, also

22 there lived (redacted) of Mr. Kovac; isn't that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were there other family members of Mr. Kovac in that apartment

25 entranceway, in the building, rather?

Page 5649

1 A. I don't know that.

2 Q. You knew your neighbours, right, who lived in that entranceway?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. There were no Muslims living in that entryway, aside from the two

5 girls you mentioned; isn't that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Yes, that's correct; or yes, there were Muslims?

8 A. No, there were no Muslims.

9 Q. In the same apartment where Mr. Kovac was living, there was also

10 another soldier living there, right, named Jagos Kostic?

11 A. I don't know that. I did not see him there.

12 Q. Do you know who he is?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. So whether you saw him or not, you couldn't tell, could you? You

15 may have seen him, you just didn't know that was him?

16 A. I did not know who that person was.

17 Q. So as far as you understood, there was Radomir Kovac living in

18 that apartment and two young girls; correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And it was Mr. Kovac who told you that one of the girls, the one

21 with the page haircut, was his girlfriend?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, today you've testified that you knew the two girls were

24 Muslim; right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5650

1 Q. You knew that at the time they were living there in that same

2 apartment building; right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You gave a statement to a defence investigator in December of

5 1999. Do you recall that?

6 A. Yes.

7 MS. KUO: And if I could have the witness shown Defence Exhibit

8 155, entered in evidence yesterday. It's a sheet of paper with a single

9 name on it. It has the name, birth date, and place of birth. And for the

10 record, it is the name of the person identified as DK.

11 Q. Don't read the name out loud, but the name that you see on Exhibit

12 D155 is the name of the Defence investigator, the person who asked you

13 questions in December of 1999; correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, when you gave that statement to that person, you said, "I did

16 not talk much with those girls, and truly to say, I even did not know they

17 were Muslim girls." Didn't you say that? Is that a "yes" or a "no,"

18 Witness? That's what you said; right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When you mentioned today that there were times when the girls came

21 to get coffee from your apartment, you had no idea whether they were sent

22 there by Mr. Kovac, right, rather than on their own?

23 A. I was asked by Mr. Kovac for a favour. He asked me to allow them

24 to make coffee.

25 Q. My question is: When the girls, according to your testimony,

Page 5651

1 appeared to make coffee, you don't know how they came to be there, right,

2 whether they came because they wanted to or because Mr. Kovac in each

3 particular incident told them to do it? You don't know that, what the

4 circumstances were, do you?

5 A. Well, they asked me to do them a favour. I allowed them to come

6 in, make coffee. They came and went.

7 Q. Witness, you described an incident where you heard noise and

8 banging at Mr. Kovac's apartment; right? Yes?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. But you don't know exactly what happened; right?

11 A. No, I don't know.

12 Q. Whether it was a soldier who came or an old woman making all that

13 noise, you don't know that, do you?

14 A. I don't know. I didn't go out of my flat.

15 Q. You also don't know how it ended, whether Mr. Kovac came or

16 whether another soldier came to stop that, to throw the person out;

17 right? You don't know.

18 A. I don't know. There were rumours later that Radomir had come,

19 that he had been thrown out.

20 Q. You testified today that the girl with the brown hair stated she

21 was in love with Mr. Kovac; correct? She told you that.

22 A. Yes. She did say that.

23 Q. When you gave your statement in December of 1999, you did not

24 mention that, did you?

25 A. Well, I don't know anymore. I don't remember. I don't even

Page 5652

1 remember whether I was asked.

2 Q. So you're saying that you may not have been asked about this

3 statement of the girl; is that right? You're saying you were not asked

4 about the girl and that's why you did not answer? Witness, a "yes" or

5 "no" answer is required. Were you asked about this girl when you were

6 interviewed in 1999, December?

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness --

8 Yes, Mr. Jovanovic.

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I object.

11 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry. Interpreter's mistake.

12 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I do not object. I would just

13 like to say now that we have heard what kind of education the witness had,

14 et cetera, et cetera. I would like the questions to be more precise. I

15 don't think, if the question is complicated, that the witness can follow

16 the question. I am not objecting; I'm just saying that perhaps more

17 specific questions would help the witness give more precise answers.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Mr. Jovanovic, for your observation.

19 Counsel, I'm sure you have understood.

20 MS. KUO: Yes, I have, Your Honour. Let me then pursue this line

21 of questioning as simply as possible.

22 Q. Witness, you gave a statement to a Defence investigator in

23 December 1999; correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In that statement you did not say that the girl who was staying in

Page 5653

1 Mr. Kovac's apartment told you she was in love with him, or did you?

2 A. We stated that.

3 MS. KUO: Your Honours, I would like to have an exhibit marked as

4 a Prosecution Exhibit. The registrar has it, and it can be identified as

5 the statement of this witness dated 6th December 1999, in both English and

6 B/C/S.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Before we have it, Mr. Kolesar, any objection?

8 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

9 MS. KUO: May we have this entered into evidence?

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It is admitted into evidence. Counsel, have

11 you checked whether there is any name of the witness so that it's under

12 seal or --

13 MS. KUO: The name of the witness is there, and we --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: So we will have it under seal?

15 MS. KUO: Yes. Thank you.


17 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is Prosecution Exhibit 240,

18 2-4-0, and it is tendered under seal.

19 MS. KUO:

20 Q. Witness, I'll ask you to look at the last page of that statement.

21 It's page 2. Do you see your signature?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And do you also see the signature of the person whose name you saw

24 on that piece of paper, D155?

25 A. Yes, I can see it.

Page 5654

1 Q. Nowhere in that statement -- and you can take as much time as you

2 need to read it -- nowhere in that statement do you say that this girl

3 said she was in love with Radomir Kovac, do you?

4 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm wondering, Mr. Kolesar, is your witness able to

5 read? Because if she is not able to read, she cannot be expected to

6 read. Can you ask her?

7 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Witness, are you finishing and are

8 you able to read it?

9 A. Yes. I'm almost finished.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

11 MS. KUO:

12 Q. Witness, you're done reading your full statement, correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. There's nothing in your statement about this girl saying she was

15 in love with Radomir Kovac, is there?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Yes there's something in the statement or it's not in the

18 statement?

19 A. There is nothing like that in the statement.

20 Q. And there's nothing in the statement about that because the girl

21 never told you she was in love with Radomir Kovac; isn't that right?

22 A. Right.

23 Q. She never said that to you? That's the truth, isn't it?

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Perhaps we can ask the witness this way: Did the

25 girl tell you that she was in love with Radomir Kovac or she didn't tell

Page 5655

1 you that herself?

2 A. We didn't talk much anyway. We just heard that she was his

3 girlfriend.

4 MS. KUO: Thank you. No further questions.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination, Mr. Kolesar?

6 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Anybody else? Any other counsel?

8 MS. LOPICIC: No, Your Honours. We do not have any questions for

9 this witness. Thank you.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, madam, for giving evidence to

11 the Tribunal. You are free. You may leave the witness box, but wait

12 until you are guided outside.

13 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE MUMBA: While we are waiting for the witness, the

16 Prosecution have got all statements for the witnesses for next week?

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we did not get the statements.

18 It's still the same like yesterday. We did not get the statements from

19 Mr. Kolesar.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, Defence witness statements for next

21 week for the Prosecution, if any? In case you won't call them maybe.

22 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] There are witnesses and there are

23 witness statements, and I still haven't given them. I still adhere to our

24 good cooperation, although I emphasise, according to the decision of the

25 Appeals Chamber in the Tadic case, that they are to be provided in due

Page 5656












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 5657

1 time and I intend to give them soon, but I do not want to be manipulated

2 during the hearing, during the trial.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: When do you intend to give them? I quite understand

4 your inference to the Appeals Chamber decision. I quite understand that.

5 All I want to know is what day are you going to give them to the

6 Prosecution?

7 [The witness entered court]

8 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Before the end of this day, after

9 the lunch break.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

11 Good afternoon, Witness. Please make your solemn declaration.

12 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

13 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please sit down.

17 Yes, counsel.

18 Examined by Mr. Kolesar:

19 Q. Good morning, Witness. I want to inform you that the Trial

20 Chamber accepted, approved, your request for protection and there will be

21 facial distortion and name protection. So here in the courtroom we will

22 not mention your full name but instead we'll use your pseudonym, which

23 is ....

24 I will show you a sheet of paper where there is your name, date

25 and place of birth indicated. So please confirm whether that is your name

Page 5658

1 indeed.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is that your date of birth?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Place of birth?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this into

9 evidence under seal and to be made available to the Prosecution.

10 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is Defence Exhibit D159,

11 tendered under seal.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, counsel. You may proceed.

13 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

14 Q. I would also like to ask you, when I ask you a question, please

15 wait a little with your answer because my question has to be interpreted,

16 and then answer slowly so your answer to be interpreted too.

17 A. I understand.

18 Q. Please tell me what your education is and your occupation.

19 A. I finished a typewriting course, and I'm a housewife. I have my

20 own shop at the green market.

21 Q. You have a shop now?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. But what did you do during the war and before the war?

24 A. Before the war I did nothing, and during the war I started selling

25 fruits and vegetables.

Page 5659

1 Q. During the war did you live in Foca the whole time?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Since you lived in Foca the whole time, please tell us, what were

4 the living conditions?

5 A. They were very hard during the war.

6 Q. Yes, that is what I mean, during the war. Please tell us more

7 about it. How was it with electricity, with food supply?

8 A. There was no electricity for a time. There was no water

9 sometimes.

10 Q. What was the availability of food?

11 A. It was very difficult to get food.

12 Q. What about cosmetics?

13 A. The same. It was very difficult to get them. People managed,

14 everyone in their own way.

15 Q. I understand there was a war going on, but what, in your opinion,

16 was the reason for this very poor supply?

17 A. Well, there were blockades, there were disrupted communications.

18 You couldn't get out of the city.

19 Q. Do you know a person named Radomir Kovac?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How did you, friends and acquaintances, call him?

22 A. Raso.

23 Q. Are you related to him?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How closely?

Page 5660

1 A. (redacted).

2 Q. Which one of you is older?

3 A. I am.

4 Q. By how many years?

5 A. I believe I'm four or five years older.

6 Q. Did you visit each other, and if you did, how often?

7 A. Yes, we did. Well, we would see each other all the time, more or

8 less. We lived nearby, and his father and mother live there too, and

9 that's the kind of job I had as well. I would see him passing by and he

10 would stop by to see me often.

11 Q. You say that you are related and that you visited each other. Can

12 you tell us what he was like as a little boy and later on as a young man?

13 A. He was very good as a young boy, and later on as a young man.

14 Q. Do you know what kind of a student he was?

15 A. Yes, I know about that. He was a good student. He attended high

16 school. He studied well. Later on he enrolled in the university to study

17 architecture. He was a good student.

18 Q. Do you know when he returned to Sarajevo and whether he took part

19 in this war as a soldier or as a member of the army of Republika Srpska?

20 A. He returned from Sarajevo just before the war. Yes, he was

21 mobilised as an ordinary soldier.

22 Q. Ordinary soldier. How was he dressed?

23 A. Well, an olive-green/grey uniform. That's what he wore. Later on

24 I think they were given camouflage uniforms, after some time.

25 Q. In situations when he was not going out for an assignment, was he

Page 5661

1 unarmed?

2 A. He was never armed.

3 Q. Did he have any insignia on his uniform?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Are you saying that he was an ordinary soldier because he wore no

6 insignia?

7 A. Well, I didn't notice anything except that probably he had some

8 kind of insignia on his shoulders, but I can't remember what it was like

9 now. But no, he didn't have anything. Those camouflage uniforms.

10 Q. Do you know specifically which unit he belonged to?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. You never asked him about that?

13 A. No, I didn't.

14 Q. During the war, did his behaviour and his disposition in general

15 change?

16 A. No, never.

17 Q. Did he have an apartment before the war or did he live with his

18 parents?

19 A. He lived with his parents.

20 Q. Do you know whether he had an apartment during the war?

21 A. During the war he told me that he had some kind of an apartment.

22 Q. Did you ever go to that apartment?

23 A. No, no, because he would come to see me more often.

24 Q. Do you remember an event related to the patron saints day of the

25 St. Archangel? That's towards the end of November.

Page 5662












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 5663

1 A. Yes, I remember. I remember.

2 Q. Can you tell us something about that?

3 A. Yes, I can. That was a day or two after the day of the St.

4 Archangel. Is that what you're asking me about, when Raso came to see me

5 with a girl?

6 Q. Yes, I'm asking you.

7 A. Yes. Actually, I went to visit my friends who were celebrating as

8 their patron saint, St. Archangel, and they gave me a bit more food,

9 because the situation was very difficult in our parts. And then a day or

10 two later I invited my neighbours, some women over, so that we could sort

11 of sit together. This is what we often do. And that same day Raso came

12 with his girlfriend.

13 Q. I have to stop you at this point. Who was there amongst your

14 neighbours?

15 A. There was Radmila, Zora Misic, and Borka Vukovic. We were sitting

16 there, we were having coffee, having a treat, and then Raso came with a

17 girlfriend of his.

18 Q. When did he come? Around what time?

19 A. Well, sort of in the early evening, approximately. Perhaps 7.30

20 or 8.00, something like that. He came. I was not surprised, because he

21 would come by often. He said to me, "Aunty, this is my girlfriend." We

22 offered them something as well. We played some music later and danced.

23 And since this was a special occasion, we had food and everything. We

24 were celebrating. He stayed there until about 10.30 or something and then

25 he went to his parents' place to spend the night there. He went with his

Page 5664

1 girlfriend, because the building is very close to my building.

2 Q. What did this girl look like? Can you describe her?

3 A. Well, she looked very pretty. She was young and she was very

4 beautiful. A normal girl. Really beautiful.

5 Q. How did she behave that evening?

6 A. Wonderfully, beautifully. Nicely, like all of us.

7 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Before I put another question to the

8 witness, could the witness please be shown Defence Exhibit 155.

9 Q. The girl that we are talking about now was also a protected

10 witness, so her name will not be said out loud.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I'm going to ask you the following now: What did you find out

13 about that girl that evening? Did you hear what her name was and what she

14 was in terms of ethnicity? If you know that, do not tell us her name. If

15 that is that person, give us the number, please.

16 A. Are you referring to the evening of St. Archangel's Day?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. What I found out about that person? Nothing.

19 Q. Did you find out what her name was? Did you find out what this

20 girl's name was that evening?

21 A. Are you referring to the girl whose name is down here? Oh, yes,

22 yes. I'm sorry. Yes. But this wasn't clear to me. This wasn't my name

23 and surname, so I didn't figure it out. This is not my name and surname,

24 so I don't know what you were asking me.

25 Q. It's not the name and surname that's important.

Page 5665

1 MS. KUO: I'm afraid there might be some confusion if indeed what

2 the witness has been handed is D155. D155 is not the name that I think

3 he's trying to get at. It should be 156, D156.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel?

5 Can the usher just show the counsel? Get the paper from the

6 witness and show counsel, see whether or not that's the name the counsel

7 wants the witness to look at.

8 Is that it?

9 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, my colleague the Prosecutor is

10 right. There has been some confusion. That is not the exhibit

11 concerned. The exhibit needed is 156. We used it already today.

12 I do apologise, Your Honours, for this mistake.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We have too many exhibits. Go ahead,

14 counsel.

15 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

16 Q. And to repeat my question: Did you find anything out about that

17 girl that evening?

18 A. Yes. I found out that her name was as it says here.

19 Q. Give us the number that is next to her name.

20 A. 87.

21 Q. And what else did you find out?

22 A. Well, nothing specifically. Raso told me she was his girlfriend.

23 When we were sitting there he addressed her by name, so I figured out she

24 is this 87. Well, it was a bit embarrassing for me that at that time he

25 had a relationship with her, but we didn't insist on it, nothing.

Page 5666

1 Q. Did you -- let's use your words -- figure out she was a Muslim.

2 A. Yes, that's what I figured out. But nothing. She behaved

3 nicely. There were relationships between Muslims and Serbs before the war

4 and now, but nothing.

5 Q. Did you see that girl after that event also?

6 A. Yes. Yes. She came to my place at the market. She bought

7 cigarettes from me. We talked. One day I saw her at the Leonardo Cafe as

8 I was taking cigarettes to the owner. We just nodded to one another. She

9 was sitting and talking to other people and I was on my own business.

10 So ...

11 Q. You said that you talked. Do you remember what you talked about?

12 A. Of course I remember what we talked about. Whenever she would

13 stop by to buy cigarettes, I would always ask her, "Where's Raso?" and all

14 this. And I said, "Why don't you stop by again for coffee?" and all that.

15 So we talked normally.

16 Q. What did she look like, physically and mentally?

17 A. She was very beautiful. She had a pageboy haircut, hair like

18 that. Very, very beautiful, and young.

19 Q. Did Kovac tell you anything about his relationship with this

20 girl?

21 A. Yes, he did. He came to see me sometime in the spring, and I

22 hadn't seen her in about 20 days, and I said, "Raso, where's your girl?"

23 And he said to me that she had left for Montenegro. He said, "I had to

24 get her out. You see what the times are like."

25 After about a month, he came to see me again, and I again asked

Page 5667

1 about her, and he said, "(redacted), I got a letter from number 77 [sic].

2 She is happy and satisfied, and she will be eternally grateful to me for

3 having saved her." And he told me that she was working in Podgorica, in a

4 cafe, and he was pleased that it was so.

5 Q. How often did you see her at the market?

6 A. Well, I saw her about ten times for sure, when she would sit with

7 me, and also that one time at the Leonardo Cafe. She would always say

8 hello nicely. When she had an opportunity to talk to me, when I did not

9 have a customer or something, she would always stop and talk.

10 Q. So you heard from him where she had gone.

11 A. Yes. Yes. Raso had that letter too. I don't know where he's got

12 it now.

13 Q. Did you read that letter?

14 A. No. I'm sorry I didn't. He told me that he would bring the

15 letter to me so that I could read it, but he didn't bring it.

16 Q. (redacted), do you know whether he was wounded during the

17 war?

18 A. Yes, he was wounded during the war, but I cannot remember exactly

19 where now. But, yes, he was wounded.

20 Q. Did he have a brother or a sister?

21 A. He had a brother.

22 Q. So he had a brother. Older or younger, and what was his name?

23 A. Milomir. Micko they called him.

24 Q. Was he also a participant?

25 A. Well, you know, he was a taxi driver by profession -- yes, but for

Page 5668

1 a very short time. He committed suicide.

2 Q. Do you remember when this was?

3 A. Well, I can't remember exactly, but at the beginning. It didn't

4 last very long. I don't know the date exactly.

5 Q. Did people talk about that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. About what the reason was?

8 A. Yes, about some incident in Montenegro, that he took part in

9 something and that he couldn't stand it any more, and then he committed

10 suicide. He actually committed suicide in his apartment.

11 Q. Could you recognise Radomir Kovac?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Take a look around the courtroom and tell us who he is.

14 A. The fourth one from over there.

15 Q. From the door?

16 A. From the door.

17 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] For the record, let us state that

18 the witness recognised the accused Radomir Kovac.


20 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. I would like

21 to consult with the accused to see whether there are any other questions.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please go ahead.

23 [Defence counsel and the accused confer]

24 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] That would be all, Your Honour. I

25 have concluded my examination.

Page 5669












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Page 5670

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Any other counsel?

2 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honours, we do not have any questions for this

3 witness. Thank you.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Prosecution, cross-examination.

5 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo:

7 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. Witness, you gave a statement to a

8 Defence investigator on 6th December, 1999; isn't that right? You need to

9 say "yes" or "no."

10 A. Yes. Yes.

11 Q. And that Defence investigator is, in fact, (redacted)

12 of Radomir Kovac; isn't that right?

13 A. I don't know.

14 MS. KUO: May I request that the witness now be shown D155.

15 Q. Witness, you see a name on D155, correct?

16 A. I see it. I see it.

17 Q. That is the name of the person who interviewed you in December

18 1999, to take your statement, right?

19 A. Right. That's right.

20 Q. You know that person is also (redacted) of Radomir Kovac, right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In that statement which you gave, you mentioned that you knew

23 Radomir Kovac had two or three girlfriends as his dates, because he used

24 to drop by your place, right?

25 A. Correct.

Page 5671

1 Q. So at the time that he told you that this particular girl was his

2 girlfriend, he had other girlfriends as well, right?

3 A. No. No. He had other girls before this girl, the one I talked

4 about.

5 Q. Very well. When you saw that girl in the Leonardo Cafe, Radomir

6 Kovac was with her, right?

7 A. No. No. No. He lived with her, but he was not at Leonardo's.

8 She was sitting with two other girls, but Radomir was not there.

9 Q. She was sitting with two other girls?

10 A. Yes. Yes.

11 Q. And there were soldiers with them, were there not?

12 A. No. No. They were sitting on their own, two girls, and this

13 third girl, 87.

14 Q. Did you recognise those two other girls?

15 A. I didn't pay any attention. As far as these two girls are

16 concerned, I met this person at my place, so I nodded to her, I nodded my

17 head, and I walked up to the bar, and I got the cigarettes, and I walked

18 away. I was also in a hurry and she had company, so ...

19 Q. Those other girls were girls you saw around Foca before or was

20 that the only time you ever saw them?

21 A. I really cannot remember now. I didn't really pay any attention

22 really to who it was then.

23 Q. How old were those other girls?

24 A. Well, let me tell you: I didn't really pay attention, but they

25 looked nice too. Young, good-looking, perhaps about 20. I just glanced

Page 5672

1 at them and I passed by. I said hello to this girl because I knew her,

2 but not these two other girls, so I didn't really pay attention to them.

3 That was it. But I saw that they were young. I saw that they were young.

4 Q. In fact, girl 87 herself was only about 15 years old; right?

5 A. Approximately. I'm not sure. I didn't ask her how old she was.

6 But she really was young and really beautiful.

7 Q. Now, you described this party that you had with your neighbours

8 and you described that 87 behaved nicely. Yes?

9 A. Yes. Yes.

10 Q. And by "nicely," you mean that she was polite; right?

11 A. Polite, polite.

12 Q. She didn't know anyone at that party, did she?

13 A. No, no one, except for Raso.

14 Q. And would you say she was quiet?

15 A. No. No. She danced. We played music on the cassette recorder.

16 She danced. She was having a good time. A normal girl, a really normal

17 girl. She behaved like all of us: nicely, normally.

18 Q. So you're saying that she fit right in, even though she didn't

19 know anybody before coming to the party?

20 A. Yes. Yes. She fit in immediately. Since she knew that Raso and

21 I were related, that I was his aunt, it was only natural that she should

22 fit in. We behaved nicely to her as well. We made her feel at home, we

23 treated her.

24 Q. Did you ask her where she came from?

25 A. No.

Page 5673

1 Q. Did you ask her how she met Radomir Kovac?

2 A. I did not.

3 Q. Did you ask her where her family was?

4 A. No. No. I did not ask her anything. Actually, none of the

5 guests asked either.

6 Q. During your conversations -- let me strike that. You mentioned in

7 your testimony that you were embarrassed when you learned about the

8 relationship between Mr. Kovac and this girl. Do you remember using that

9 word, "embarrassed"?

10 A. I was not confused. I was just a bit surprised, because I didn't

11 know then that Raso, at that time, had a relationship with a girl who was

12 a Muslim. So just as you said, she was in such a good mood. She was

13 having a good time. And we didn't find out almost until the end that she

14 was a Muslim. When Raso addressed her by name, then we realised she was a

15 Muslim, and then I was a bit surprised, because I didn't know that, at

16 that time, he had a relationship with a girl who was a Muslim, until that

17 evening.

18 Q. Perhaps this was a mistake with the translation. The English

19 transcript shows the word "embarrassed," and I'd like to know whether

20 that's the word you used.

21 A. Well, no, it's not that I was embarrassed. I'm telling you: I

22 didn't know, at the time, that he was having a relationship with her at

23 the time, so I was just a bit surprised. She was a nice girl, a beautiful

24 girl. We all liked her. I was even sorry when she left, because she was

25 such a good person and so beautiful.

Page 5674

1 MS. KUO: Your Honour, I have a few more questions, but it's 1.00,

2 so perhaps we should break.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll adjourn for the lunch break and we will

5 keep the normal time. We shall proceed in the afternoon at 1430 hours.

6 --- Recess taken at 1.00 p.m.




















Page 5675


2 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Good afternoon, Witness. We continue with

4 cross-examination by the Prosecution.

5 MS. KUO:

6 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. Witness, could you tell us, please,

7 where you had this market that you were selling cigarettes and food?

8 A. In town. I don't know how to explain it to you. Downtown, in the

9 centre.

10 Q. Was it a kiosk or a stand or a store?

11 A. A stall.

12 Q. Was it a permanent stall or was it one of these temporary stalls?

13 A. At that time it was a temporary, but now it is permanent. At

14 first, everybody just started this. They could -- they started out with

15 cigarettes, then with detergents, soaps, oil. At that time, there were no

16 permanent stalls. Now it's become more regular.

17 Q. At that time, you didn't take over somebody else's business; is

18 that right? You simply had access to supplies and were selling them; is

19 that right?

20 A. No, I did not take over anybody's business. I was buying and

21 selling my own stuff. I needed to take care of my family.

22 Q. You mentioned that during the war there were severe shortages of

23 food; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Could you tell us, please, where you got your supplies?

Page 5676

1 A. I got my supplies from Montenegro when I could get permits to get

2 out of town, because you needed permits. So when I could get one, we

3 would take a bus over to Montenegro and that's where we would get the

4 supplies.

5 Q. Whom did you have to get the permits from?

6 A. You mean from the municipality? A permit to get out to go to

7 Montenegro, is that what you're referring to?

8 Q. Yes. What authority did you have to apply to for a permit?

9 A. The municipality in our town. I don't know who exactly worked in

10 that position, but we went to them and they would issue us permits for

11 that day, and we would come back the same day.

12 Q. What kind of reasons did you have to give in order to get a permit

13 to go to Montenegro?

14 A. I did not hide the reason. They knew why I was going there

15 because I already had a stall. I told them that I was going to buy

16 foodstuffs and other supplies. They knew about it.

17 Q. Did you need -- as part of the permit, did you have to promise to

18 come back or was it a permit to leave, and if you wanted to stay in

19 Montenegro, you could?

20 A. I could. Had I wanted to stay, I could have stayed.

21 Q. And you said you were granted this permit many times. That's how

22 you got your regular supply of food, right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And it was a very simple procedure, wasn't it?

25 A. Yes. Anybody could get this permit to leave.

Page 5677

1 Q. Witness, isn't it true that you were very friendly with your

2 customers; you would talk with them?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you tell us, please, were many of your customers Muslim?

5 A. There were Muslims. There were Muslims whom I knew to be Muslims

6 and there may have been others whom I did not know to be Muslims, but

7 there were many customers. There were, for instance, my neighbours. I

8 knew them. There were others, but I don't know all people. I don't know

9 whether they were Muslim or of another ethnic background. They were all

10 customers.

11 Q. By November 1992, isn't it true that all the people you knew to be

12 Muslim had left Foca?

13 A. I don't believe that everybody left. There are Muslims there

14 now. There are those who never left Foca. They still live with us. I

15 don't think that everybody wanted to leave, so they were there.

16 Q. The number of Muslims went down very drastically by November of

17 1992; isn't that true?

18 A. Yes. Both the Muslims and Serbs were leaving. Whoever wanted to

19 leave, they would get these permits. The authorities were giving them

20 permits, and whoever wanted to leave was able to leave.

21 Q. So -- okay. Now, you described a party that you gave in November

22 of 1992, and you've told us that at the end of the party, at around 10.30,

23 Kovac left to go home, and you said "home" was his parents' house. Do you

24 remember that?

25 A. I remember around 11.00. I think it was around 11.00 when he

Page 5678

1 left. He went to his parents' place with his girlfriend.

2 Q. And you know for sure that it was 11.00?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You are a fairly social person, right?

5 A. I don't know. I like to communicate with people. I share things

6 with people. I am outgoing and I like all people.

7 Q. The party that you described was not the first party you ever

8 gave, right?

9 A. No. Not the first; not the last. There were other parties.

10 Q. And the particular party you're describing occurred eight years

11 ago; isn't that right?

12 A. In 1992, in November. Yes, I guess it's that long. Now it's

13 2000, isn't it.

14 Q. You had no reason to think about that party, did you, until

15 December 1999, when the Defence investigator came to ask you some

16 questions, right?

17 A. Yes. No, I never thought about it, but the investigator asked me

18 because of these girls. She asked me whether I knew her, and I told her

19 that I had met her at that party. She asked me where I had met her and

20 that's when I described that evening and what went on.

21 Q. Today in court, you can testify with absolute certainty about the

22 times that Mr. Kovac was at your party, that he arrived at 7.30 and left

23 at 11.00, right?

24 A. Yes, because I remember that it was late, and I asked him not to

25 go back to the apartment but rather to his mother's because that was

Page 5679

1 nearby. And I even saw them off to the entrance of the building because

2 there was no light in the hallway, in the stairwell. So I accompanied

3 them with a flashlight out to the entrance.

4 Q. Are you saying that you told them to go to Kovac's parents' house

5 rather than to his own apartment? That was your idea?

6 A. Both mine and his. He said that he was going -- he said that they

7 were going and they didn't want to spend the night at my place. And I

8 said, "Well, why don't you just go over to your mother's, because it's

9 closer," and he agreed with that. But first of all, I suggested that they

10 stay and spend the night at my place, because there were also curfews in

11 those days, and the curfew was around 10.00, so it was also for their own

12 safety. So I asked them that perhaps it would be best if they slept over

13 at my place.

14 Q. (redacted)

15 A. (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 Q. (redacted)

19 A. (redacted)

20 Q. Isn't it true that Kovac's parents lived only about two or three

21 hundred metres away from his own apartment?

22 A. I think it's a little bit more than two to three hundred metres.

23 I don't know how to measure that, by taking a street or taking a shortcut,

24 but I think it's a bit more than 300 metres. I don't know exactly.

25 Q. It's not far to walk, is it?

Page 5680

1 A. No, not far.

2 Q. Now, you answered previously that you didn't ask this girl 87 how

3 she and Kovac met; correct?

4 A. I did not ask her at that time, but later on she told me about it,

5 and she told me all good things about him. And he also talked to her

6 about someone that he had fallen in love with, and so did she.

7 Q. How did you -- what did she say about how they met?

8 A. I don't know exactly whether she ever said how they met. I'm not

9 sure about that night, but not even later. But then she did talk about

10 him. I would always ask, "How is Raso? What is he doing," was she happy

11 with him, was she happy to be living with him, that she was his

12 girlfriend? And then he said the same thing about her. And that night I

13 could see that they really liked each other. They talked together. It

14 was -- they were nice to see. And because -- like, so that I said, "Well,

15 why don't you stay the night here?" I thought that she was a wonderful

16 girl.

17 Q. You yourself said when you found out this girl was Muslim, you

18 were surprised, because it was unusual; right?

19 A. It was not unusual, but at that time I did not know that Raso had

20 a girlfriend who was Muslim. I was a bit surprised. It wasn't anything

21 bad. And also I was surprised by her good behaviour and how well they got

22 along. They got along really well. And I was unaware of that

23 relationship existing at that time.

24 Q. (redacted), Radomir Kovac, was fighting in the Serb

25 army at that time against Muslims; right?

Page 5681












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 5682

1 A. Yes, I knew that he was in the army, because I saw him in

2 uniform. I knew that he was fighting. Yes, that is true. Well, perhaps

3 that was part of the reason why I was a bit surprised. It wasn't bad. I

4 was glad that they were in love with one another.

5 Q. But you never asked how it was that a Serb soldier actively

6 fighting against Muslim soldiers was able to meet a Muslim girl and bring

7 her in as a girlfriend? It didn't occur to you to ask that, did it?

8 A. Indeed, I didn't ask, and it was not the only case. Even now some

9 girls go out with Muslim young men, and vice versa. We had so many mixed

10 marriages, so that it wasn't a big surprise. It was normal, whatever one

11 says about it.

12 Q. So you're saying today that the reason you didn't ask about how

13 they met was that it seemed normal to you?

14 A. As far as the two of them were concerned, it was quite normal,

15 regular. And I did not ask them. At first, I didn't even know that she

16 was a Muslim. Perhaps when he first addressed her by her name is when I

17 first realised.

18 Q. Now, when you gave the statement to the Defence investigator in

19 December 1999, you told -- you said in your statement that on one occasion

20 when you spoke with girl 87, she -- and I quote now, "She told me she was

21 happy to meet Radomir because he saved her." Do you remember that?

22 A. I remember. I do.

23 Q. Then you go on to say, "Knowing about international conflicts, I

24 did not speak with her about what she was thinking of when saying he saved

25 her." Do you remember saying that?

Page 5683

1 A. I remember. I do.

2 Q. So the reason you didn't go -- you didn't ask her about how they

3 met isn't because you thought it was normal but because of some concern

4 you had about international conflicts; isn't that right?

5 A. Well, there was a conflict then.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Sorry, Witness. Counsel is on his feet.

7 Mr. Jovanovic, please.

8 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection to this

9 line of questioning. This is a matter of speculation and using what the

10 witness said in regard of one situation and using it for a different

11 situation. Perhaps a direct question should be asked rather than you

12 taking words out of context to rephrase the question. We can check the

13 record. We can see that it's the same question, just slightly rephrased,

14 except that certain passages from the statements were taken out of

15 context. So in my submission, there should be a very concrete question

16 asked, since the witness answered on two or three occasions. I think this

17 is speculative, because linking the international conflict and her concern

18 about the international conflict as part of what the answer to that

19 question is supposed to elicit.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic, the Trial Chamber doesn't find any

22 substance in your objection, and if that will satisfy you, maybe counsel

23 can ask the witness what she means by "international conflict." Otherwise

24 the objection is overruled.

25 Counsel, please proceed.

Page 5684

1 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Witness, let me first establish that, in fact, you did make --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, double trouble?

4 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the original

5 statement taken by the Defence investigator, it doesn't say

6 "international," but "inter-ethnic conflict," and in our submission, that

7 is a very substantive difference, international and inter-ethnic conflict.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: So you are saying in the Serbo-Croat version it's

9 inter-ethnic conflict?

10 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes. The last sentence in the

11 paragraph: "Being aware of the inter-ethnic conflict, I did not want to

12 talk to her about it. That is what she meant when she said that he had

13 saved her, especially since she looked quite content and satisfied."

14 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm wondering, counsel, whose interpretation is -- I

15 mean, translation of the statement?

16 MS. KUO: This was a translation provided by the Defence, Your

17 Honour.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe we can give the statement in Serbo-Croat to

19 the interpreters and have this cleared.

20 MS. KUO: Your Honour, I actually wouldn't even mind if the

21 witness were given the statement and she could tell us what she said,

22 either "international" or "inter-ethnic." It wouldn't matter to the

23 question.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Okay. Maybe she can be shown the statement in

25 Serbo-Croat. But I still feel the interpreters should help us out. You

Page 5685

1 can go ahead with the witness, and let's see if we can get the statement

2 to the interpreters so that they can help us out.

3 MS. KUO: Your Honour, the Prosecution wishes to enter or have the

4 witness shown a statement by this witness signed 6th December, 1999, in

5 English and Serbo-Croat.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: I take it she can only read Serbo-Croat. And show

7 her the correct paragraph or the line, please, so that we don't waste

8 time.

9 MS. KUO:

10 Q. I can direct your attention, Witness, to the paragraph.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we wait? Has it been marked for

12 identification? Not yet. Madam Registrar, not yet? Can we have it

13 marked, just numbered for identification purposes, please?

14 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document will be marked

15 Prosecution Exhibit 241 for identification purposes.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel for the Prosecution, it's just marked for

17 identification purposes.

18 MS. KUO: Yes. Understood, Your Honour.

19 If the witness could be directed to page 2 in the B/C/S version.

20 It appears to be the fifth paragraph.

21 Q. Witness, have you read that paragraph?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The last sentence in that paragraph, beginning "Knowing about,"

24 and then the word that we're concerned about.

25 A. "Inter-ethnic." "Knowing of inter-ethnic conflicts, I did not

Page 5686

1 want to talk to her about it. That is, what she was referring to when she

2 said that he had saved her, especially since she looked quite calm and

3 content."

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

5 MS. KUO:

6 Q. Witness, could you explain to us what you mean by that, "Knowing

7 about inter-ethnic conflicts," you didn't wish to speak to her about --

8 A. "Inter-ethnic." Well, I knew that there was fighting between the

9 Serbs and Muslims, and knowing that she was a Muslim, I did not want to

10 ask her anything about it. For me, that was normal. I did not want to

11 hurt anyone's feelings by that.

12 Q. You didn't want to know; isn't that right?

13 A. No. Why? I knew that she was a Muslim. I did not want to ask

14 her. I just told you that. Because she could have interpreted it in

15 another way. My intentions were the best, but she could have

16 misinterpreted why I was asking this.

17 Q. According to your testimony and the descriptions of the

18 interactions you've had with this girl, there would have been no reason

19 for her to doubt your goodwill, right? You've told us that she that was

20 so --

21 A. No, no, no. Definitely there was no reasons for her to doubt, but

22 I really did not ask her anything. I did not ask her how she met Raso,

23 why she was with him. I didn't ask anything.

24 Q. And I'm putting to you that the reason that you didn't ask her was

25 because you didn't want to hear from her about the things that had

Page 5687

1 happened to her as a Muslim; isn't that right?

2 A. No. That is not correct. I don't even know whether she had gone

3 through anything. To me, it was quite normal that he would come to me

4 with a girlfriend because he had come to me with other girlfriends before

5 her. Only when they wanted to go home I learned her name, and even then I

6 did not ask anything.

7 Q. So a young girl of about 15, a Muslim girl who is, according to

8 you, with a Serb soldier much older than her, tells you that she has been

9 saved by him and you don't ask any further questions about that. Is that

10 what you're saying?

11 A. She told me that he had saved her. And again let me repeat, I did

12 not want to ask her what she meant by it. I did not ask her.

13 Q. Witness, (redacted) Radomir Kovac; isn't that

14 right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You felt he confided his feelings to you, right? He told you how

17 he was feeling?

18 A. He said that he loved her, that he had fallen in love with her.

19 He did not hide his feelings. And that evening, one could see that he had

20 feelings of love for her. They were very joyful. He did not hide his

21 feelings.

22 Q. Radomir Kovac called you (redacted) right?

23 A. Yes, he did.

24 Q. And you felt a need to take care of him and help him as his (redacted);

25 isn't that right? To the extent you could.

Page 5688












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 5689

1 A. Well, I didn't feel any such need because he had his own parents.

2 I honestly didn't feel any need to take care of him. He just visited me

3 like all the family did. We would have coffee, listen to music, have

4 whatever treats we could afford at the time, but he had his own father and

5 mother.

6 Q. When you were asked about this letter that supposedly Radomir

7 Kovac received from girl 87, you stated here in court, "I'm sorry I did

8 not read that letter." Do you remember saying that?

9 A. Yes, I remember.

10 Q. And you were sorry that you didn't read the letter because you

11 wanted to help him more than you could, right?

12 A. No. But when Radomir told me that she was expressing her

13 gratitude in that letter, he was crying when she had left because he had

14 loved her, and he told her [sic],(redacted) you would cry too if you could

15 read that," and that's why I'm sorry I didn't read that. He had promised

16 to bring it, and I don't know how it came about, but he never actually

17 brought it. He just told me that he had received that letter. He just

18 said on that occasion that she wrote exactly she would be grateful to him

19 for life.

20 Q. So the only reason you believe this letter exists is because

21 (redacted) Radomir Kovac told you that, right?

22 A. Well, I still believe she really has written that letter. I don't

23 see any reason why he would invent that. I don't know what he did with

24 the letter though. She did write him that letter.

25 Q. You never saw that letter, did you?

Page 5690

1 A. No. No.

2 Q. I just want to clarify something you said just a few moments ago

3 when you were describing this. This is the first time where you've said

4 that Radomir Kovac cried when the girl left or wrote him a letter. You've

5 never said that in your previous statement or in your direct testimony.

6 A. Well, I don't know why I didn't, but it's the truth. When he

7 received the letter he was glad, and he cried over her because he loved

8 her. I don't know why I didn't mention it before. I don't think anybody

9 asked.

10 Q. So you got the impression that this letter was very dear to him

11 and meant a lot to him, right?

12 A. Yes. Yes.

13 Q. As far as you know, this letter doesn't exist any more, does it?

14 A. Honestly, I don't know. I never asked about it later. I never

15 asked Radomir what he did with the letter.

16 MS. KUO: No further questions.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Re-examination, Mr. Kolesar?

18 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I do have one

19 question and one clarification after that.

20 Re-examined by Mr. Kolesar:

21 Q. You said that between the -- from the house of Radomir Kovac's

22 parents and his apartment there are about 300, 400 metres.

23 A. I didn't say that. I said it depended on what you measured, the

24 shortcut or the full length of the street.

25 Q. What is the distance between your flat and the flat of Radomir's

Page 5691

1 parents'?

2 A. About 100, 150 metres, not more. That would be approximately the

3 distance. It's very close by. That's why I recommended him to go there.

4 It all depends on which path you take. I don't know exactly the

5 distance in metres. I can't say that. If you took the car, I think it

6 would be longer.

7 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in this morning's

8 session, in the second part, during cross-examination, when the discussion

9 focused on whether the witness' reaction to finding out the name and

10 surname, there transpired something that is not quite correct. Shall I

11 read out the witness' original statement or shall we ask the witness to

12 read her own words?

13 JUDGE MUMBA: You can take which course will satisfy what you want

14 to clarify.

15 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation].

16 Q. On page 2, paragraph 3, close to the end there is a sentence

17 beginning with "I remembered that name very well." Did you find it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Please read it.

20 A. It says: "I remembered that name very well because it came as a

21 surprise to me. Not because I am against Muslims, but because I didn't

22 know at the time that Radomir was having a relationship with a Muslim

23 girl."

24 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Please. We have the word "surprise"

25 here, and in the translation we provided there is also the same word. In

Page 5692

1 the transcript, the Prosecutor says -- uses the word "embarrassment" or

2 "embarrassed." I would like to have this clarified now because there is

3 no [sic] discrepancy between the original and the translation.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: The viva voce evidence, that's the interpretation we

5 got. That's where counsel got the word "embarrassed" from, is from her

6 viva voce evidence. That was the interpretation.

7 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] What got into the transcript today I

8 didn't really notice, because I -- my English is not good. But in the

9 original -- and we can hear the tapes, if necessary -- the witness

10 mentioned the word "surprised" several times but did not use the word

11 "embarrassed" or "embarrassment" at any point.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note. The witness did use a

13 different word from "surprise" once.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Could we get a copy of the transcript? You mean

15 this morning's part of the cross-examination?

16 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Page 136, line 7,

17 in the Prosecutor's question, there is the word "embarrassment" -- page

18 66, line 7.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe counsel from the Prosecution --

20 MS. KUO: Your Honour, in fact, I did use the word "embarrassment"

21 because that was the word that showed up on the transcript at page 59,

22 line 21, during the direct examination, and perhaps that is the portion of

23 the tape that should be reviewed.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe we can get the transcript from the registrar,

25 if you can go back.

Page 5693

1 MS. KUO: And I might also note that it was precisely to be

2 certain that I asked the witness to clarify that word, whether in fact she

3 used it, and I believe she did adopt it.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because that was what we understood. That was

5 the interpretation given. The word was -- she did say she was

6 embarrassed.

7 THE INTERPRETER: If the interpreters may say so, there was the

8 word which sounds like nezgodno in B/C/S and can be translated as

9 "embarrassing" or "awkward" in English.

10 THE INTERPRETER: That is what the witness used once this

11 morning. She said "surprised" several times.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have a search of the transcript, I think of

14 the examination-in-chief?

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we get the page number of the transcript,

17 because it's only line 21 I can detect. What was the page number?

18 Fifty --

19 LEGAL OFFICER: Fifty-nine.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you.

21 Mr. Kolesar, have you checked that, transcript page 59, line 21?

22 It was actually examination-in-chief when the word was used. You asked,

23 "And what else did you find out?" and the answer here is, "Well, nothing

24 specifically. Raso told me she was his girlfriend. When we were sitting

25 there we [as read] addressed her by name, so I figured out that she is

Page 5694

1 this 87. Well, it was a bit embarrassing for me that at that time he had

2 a relationship with her, but we didn't insist on it, nothing."

3 So that's a correct transcript. Is that a problem for you, the

4 word "embarrassing"? Maybe you can explain to the Trial Chamber what you

5 think the implications are, and maybe we can clarify that with the witness

6 before the witness is released.

7 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I only meant to say

8 that in the written statement, in the original version, the word used was

9 not "embarrassing," but "surprised." As far as I remember the direct --

10 the examination-in-chief, the witness said she was surprised, not

11 embarrassed. But I can, with your permission, ask this witness again

12 whether she felt embarrassed or surprised over this.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Well, you see, asking her the question the second

14 time really won't mean much, because the interpreters have already told

15 the Trial Chamber that the word that was used could mean both embarrassing

16 or feeling awkward about it, but not surprised. So asking her again won't

17 really mean anything.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The only recourse we have now is to ask the

20 registry to check the tape against the interpretation; that's all. We can

21 have that done later.

22 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, although

23 ultimately I don't think it makes a lot of difference. I don't know

24 whether we should burden the supporting services with this. It doesn't

25 really matter to me that much. I just wanted to point it out.

Page 5695












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 5696

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you. Yes, but the Trial Chamber will

2 still insist on having the audiotape checked against the translation, just

3 to make sure the record is correct, because this is a criminal trial, as

4 you know. Any other questions?

5 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. Thank you very

6 much.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Any questions from --

8 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honours, we do not have any questions for this

9 witness. Thank you.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Nothing, Mr. Prodanovic, I take it?

11 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, thank you.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Witness, for giving evidence to the

13 Tribunal. You are now released. You may go. And wait for the usher to

14 escort you out of the courtroom.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 JUDGE MUMBA: This is the last witness this week? I take it from

18 the list that is the position.

19 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: So now next week we have -- we are beginning from

21 Monday. Tuesday we have videolink witnesses, and the Trial Chamber is

22 waiting for the certificate as requested for the other witness,

23 Mr. Kolesar's consent. If the document does come in, you can file it

24 before the end of today or even tomorrow, but we would appreciate quick

25 action, because the technical staff would like to be ready by Monday for

Page 5697

1 the videolink proceedings on Tuesday, to avoid having breakdowns and

2 delays.

3 Mr. Jovanovic, you are on your feet, or you just wanted to consult

4 your colleagues?

5 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll consult with my colleagues,

6 Your Honour. Thank you.


8 [Defence counsel confer]

9 [Trial Chamber confers with registrar]

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Jovanovic.

11 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. As I

12 promised yesterday, the Defence tried to present, within the shortest time

13 possible, the certificate that was the concern of our colleagues from the

14 Prosecution. I have a certificate now issued by the health centre in

15 Foca, where the person concerned is employed, with regard to the videolink

16 testimony. Unfortunately, I have it only in the B/C/S version. I don't

17 have the translation. But if the Trial Chamber allows me, I will read out

18 only two sentences from this certificate. And I can provide a copy of

19 this to the Prosecution so that one of us can have it translated.

20 "This certificate is to certify that Dr. So-and-so" --

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you just wait? We'll go into private session,

22 since this was a confidential motion. Just wait for private session.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5703













13 pages 5698-5703 redacted private session








21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.37 p.m., to

22 be reconvened on Monday, the 18th day of

23 September, 2000 at 9.30 a.m.