Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5704

 1                          Monday, 18th September 2000 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 9.37 a.m.

 5            JUDGE MUMBA:  Would the registrar please call the case.

 6            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case IT-96-23-T, IT-96-23/1-T, the

 7    Prosecutor versus Dragoljub Kunarac, Radomir Kovac, and Zoran Vukovic.

 8            JUDGE MUMBA:  Good morning.  We are proceeding with the Defence

 9    case this morning, and can we have whichever counsel is on their feet this

10    morning.

11                          [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

12            JUDGE MUMBA:  As the court will notice, Judge Hunt is not here

13    today, so we are continuing our proceedings under Rule 15 bis.

14            Counsel?  Or we are waiting for the witness to come?

15                          [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

16            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  The Chamber has received a supplement for

17    protective measures for the rest of the Defence witnesses who are here in

18    The Hague, and there are eight of them, and the request is pseudonyms and

19    facial distortion.  I would like to find out from the Prosecution whether

20    there are any submissions.

21            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  No objection, Your Honour.

22            JUDGE MUMBA:  To both?

23            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

24            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you.

25            And the pseudonyms are DH for the first one, DI for the second,

Page 5705

 1    DN, DO, DP, DQ, DR.  And the other one has already been granted a

 2    pseudonym of DV.  Yes.  And the facial distortion.  So the motion is

 3    granted as prayed for pseudonyms as dictated and as well as facial

 4    distortion.  So can we have the first witness, please.

 5            We are having problems, I think, getting the blinds down and then

 6    the usher has to go and collect the witness.  It will take us ages.

 7                          [The witness entered court]

 8            JUDGE MUMBA:  Good morning, Witness.  Please make the solemn

 9    declaration.

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.  I solemnly declare

11    that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12                          WITNESS:  WITNESS DH

13                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

14            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you.  Please sit down.

15            Who is examining this witness?  Yes, Mr. Kolesar.  Please go

16    ahead.

17            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18                          Examined by Mr. Kolesar:

19       Q.   Witness, good morning.

20       A.   Good morning.

21       Q.   I would like to inform you that the Trial Chamber has granted your

22    request for facial distortion and for a pseudonym.

23       A.   Thank you.

24       Q.   Your pseudonym is going to be DH.

25            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Can I please ask the usher to place

Page 5706

 1    this piece of paper in front of the witness, and there are also sufficient

 2    copies for Their Honours and for the other parties.

 3       Q.   Can you please look at this piece of paper.  There is a name

 4    and -- the first name and the family name.  Is that your name?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Underneath is a date of birth.  Is that your date of birth?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   And then there is a place of birth.  Is this your place of birth?

 9       A.   Yes.

10            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Can this document please be tendered

11    into evidence under seal.

12            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes, Counsel.

13            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is document D160, Exhibit

14    D160, tendered under seal.

15            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I think we received a

16    misinterpretation in terms of the number, but I think we are all square on

17    it.

18       Q.   Can you please tell me, what is your profession?

19       A.   I am a typist.

20       Q.   Where did you live now?

21       A.   In Foca.

22       Q.   Where did you live before the war and during the war?

23       A.   I was born in a village, but even before the war and during the

24    war I lived in Foca town.

25       Q.   You said that throughout the war you lived in Foca.  Can you

Page 5707

 1    please tell me, what were the living conditions in Foca at the beginning

 2    of the war?  And I'm referring to the water and electricity supplies, food

 3    supplies, and in general.

 4       A.   The living conditions were very difficult.  There was no

 5    electricity, no water, no food, and it was very hard for us to find them.

 6    Very difficult.

 7       Q.   Do you know what the reason for this was?

 8       A.   The reason was the war.  We had no electricity because the

 9    electrical network, the system, had broken down because of the

10    hostilities, and there was -- and because of the Muslims, and because --

11    there was no food because all the roads were blocked.  Those of us who had

12    families, parents in villages, went there to get food.

13       Q.   Very well, but let me move immediately to what is relevant for the

14    proceedings here.  Do you know the person named Radomir Kovac?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q. (redacted)

17       A. (redacted)

18       Q. (redacted)

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   And who is older of the two of you?

21       A.   I am.

22       Q.   Did you exchange visits?  Did you socialise?

23       A. (redacted)

24       Q.   Yes.

25       A.   Yes, and we were especially close, he and I.  And we saw each

Page 5708

 1    other before the war and during the war.

 2       Q.   Do you know what his education was?

 3       A.   He graduated from the high school, and I know that he enrolled in

 4    the school of architecture in Sarajevo.

 5       Q.   Did he graduate?

 6       A.   I believe he did not, but I'm not -- I believe he did not because

 7    this was before the war, and we did not talk about that.

 8       Q. (redacted).  Before the war, do you know whether he did his

 9    regular military service in the former Yugoslavia?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Do you perhaps know when?

12       A.   I don't recall.  I don't know exactly.

13       Q.   Very well.  Can you tell me now how was he as a boy, as a young

14    man in relation to his schoolmates?  How was he in school?

15       A.   He was a good friend, (redacted).  He was

16    quite sociable.  He was sociable in relation to his friends and to his

17    family, and he was always a good friend.  And this is how people knew him,

18    and this is how they appreciated him.

19       Q.   How was -- what kind of a student was he?

20       A.   He was an A student, in high school, that is.  Both in the

21    elementary school and the high school.

22       Q.   In the -- how did, how did people call him, the family and among

23    his friends?

24       A.   He was called Raso.  It was a name that everybody used.  I used it

25    and others did.

Page 5709












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Page 5710

 1       Q.   Do you know whether he was also called Klanfa?

 2       A.   No.  Only after the war, it was only after the war that I heard

 3    about that nickname, and I don't know where that came from.

 4       Q.   You have no knowledge as to who gave him that nickname?

 5       A.   No, I don't.

 6       Q.   Would you be able to recognise him?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Will you please look around the courtroom and tell us who this --

 9    who it is.

10       A.   He is there behind.  He is the first --

11       Q.   Why don't you count from the, why don't you count from the door?

12       A.   He would be number third.  First the police officer, then Kunarac,

13    then he.

14            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Can the record please reflect that

15    the witness recognised the accused.

16            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.

17            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, was the identification

18    correct?

19            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.

20            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21       Q.   When the war broke out in Foca, when did you see him for the first

22    time, if you remember?

23       A.   Not immediately, perhaps 15 to 20 days into the hostilities.  I

24    saw him because he regularly came by my place.

25       Q.   You said about 15 days?

Page 5711

 1       A.   Fifteen, but with plus or minus two or three days.

 2       Q.   Did the situation calm down in Foca by that time?  Had Serbs taken

 3    control of it?

 4       A.   I believe so.  I don't know the exact date.  Perhaps in the town

 5    itself they did, yes.

 6       Q.   Yes, my question does refer to the town itself.

 7            How often would you see him during the war?

 8       A.   Fairly frequently because whenever there were power outages, I had

 9    a wood stove, and he would come by with his friends for me to cook some

10    food for them because there was no food at the time.

11       Q.   Well, if there was no food, if there were food shortages, how

12    could you feed him, both him and his friends?

13       A.   I was from a village, took me three or four hours to get there,

14    but my parents were there, so I brought food from there.  And whenever I

15    would bring food, I had some for him, his friends, and my children, and we

16    would share.  We tried to make do.

17       Q.   During the war, what was he wearing?

18       A.   At first he had the olive drab uniform, and later, later he had a

19    camouflage uniform.

20       Q.   Later?

21       A.   Later it was a camouflage uniform.

22       Q.   Did he wear any insignia on his uniform?

23       A.   No.  He had nothing.

24       Q.   Do you know when he joined the units of the army of the Republika

25    Srpska?

Page 5712

 1       A.   I don't know exactly.

 2       Q.   Very well.  If you don't know, you don't know.  It's nothing

 3    significant.  Do you know what unit he belonged to, he was a member of?

 4       A.   He was a member of the army of the Republika Srpska.

 5       Q.   But did you ever ask him about what specific unit he was a member

 6    of?

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   At that time, during that period of war, what was his mood, given

 9    that it was a mental strain for everyone?

10       A.   His mood was all right.  He was always in a good mood.  He always

11    made jokes, even when times were hard.  He would say something to put us

12    in a good mood, even in difficult situations.

13       Q.   You said that he frequently came with his friends and that you

14    would prepare some food for him.

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Did he come to visit you in early November 1992 and did he ask for

17    help?

18       A.   Yes.  He came by, as usual, and on that occasion he told

19    me -- because we sat down and my children were there.  He told me -- can I

20    go on?

21       Q.   Yes, please do.  I have a problem with the microphone.

22       A.   Yes.  He whispered something into my ears so that the children

23    would not hear it:  if he could take some food with him, because he had a

24    girlfriend in his apartment, for his girlfriend, and I packed some food,

25    the little bit that I had.

Page 5713

 1       Q.   Did you ever see this girl?

 2       A.   I saw her at a neighbour --

 3       Q.   Let me stop you here.  If you are going to refer to a person who

 4    is on the list that you have, please refer to them as -- by their names

 5    [as interpreted].

 6       A.   Can I go on?  I think this was the DM [Realtime transcript read in

 7    error "DN"], because she was also staying with her relatives in the area,

 8    and she had also brought something to eat and we would invite each other.

 9    And I believe that I may have been the first who had come there, and DI

10    was there, DK was there, and we were sitting, and then Raso also joined us

11    with his girlfriend.

12       Q.   And how do you know that she was his girlfriend?

13       A.   He had told me previously that he had a girlfriend.  We did not

14    talk anything more about it.  I just knew that he had a girlfriend.  I did

15    not even know her name -- this is what I wanted to add -- that is, at that

16    time.

17            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we correct the

18    transcript, please?

19            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.

20            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Line 8.  It says "DN," and it should

21    say "DM."

22            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  Actually, it should be DM.

23            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

24       Q.   Do you remember when you arrived, around what time?

25       A.   Well, it could have been 7.00.  I have no idea.  I was the first

Page 5714

 1    to arrive.  I arrived a bit earlier so that I could leave earlier, because

 2    my husband's parents are old and I knew that I could not stay very long in

 3    the evening.  And we sat there.  Perhaps I was there with Raso and that

 4    girlfriend of his only for about 40 minutes.  We talked a bit.  We had a

 5    bite to eat.  They danced a bit.  After that I went home and they stayed

 6    there at this neighbour, DM's place.

 7       Q.   Tell me, how much after you did they come?

 8       A.   Believe me, I don't know exactly.  Well, I left perhaps around

 9    8.00, quarter to 8.00.  I was there about 40 minutes while they were there

10    too.  I mean, I was still there.  Perhaps about 40 minutes.  Perhaps I was

11    with them for about 40 minutes and then I left.

12       Q.   Quite a bit of time has gone by since that event.  Do you remember

13    this girl's face?  Can you describe her?

14       A.   Well, you know what, she was young, brown hair, beautiful.  But

15    now I -- well, after all, it's been eight years, so I cannot remember her

16    features very distinctly.

17       Q.   That evening when you were at DM's place; right?

18       A.   Yes, that's right.

19       Q.   Did Raso tell you what her name was and what her ethnic background

20    was?

21       A.   No.  He said it, she said it, but it was a bit noisy.  And she

22    said her name, but at this first moment I did not realise

23    [name redacted] --

24       Q.   No, no.  I told you that all witnesses are protected.

25       A.   I do apologise.  I do apologise.  Eighty-seven, 87, 87.  I did not

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Page 5716

 1    understand her name at all then.  It's only later that I found out, after

 2    that.

 3       Q.   Let us go back to the beginning of November 1992.  You say that he

 4    was at your place and that he sought assistance in food for the girl who

 5    was staying with him.  You wrapped something for him, and he took it.  Did

 6    you continue to do him this particular favour?  Did you continue giving

 7    him food for this girl?

 8       A.   Yes.  Whenever I had something, whenever I could set something

 9    aside, I would pack it for them.  On a few occasions I would take it to

10    him, to the door, even when Raso was not there.  The girl would open the

11    door.  I would give it to her, but I wouldn't sit there because I didn't

12    have time to go in and sit there, so we were just there in the hallway.

13    And then I would go back home.

14       Q.   Tell me, where was this apartment?

15       A.   It was in the centre of Foca, a building that is called Lepa

16    Brena.

17            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I

18    would like to have a photograph shown to the witness.  I would like to ask

19    her whether she can recognise what's in the photograph.  I am showing D38

20    to the witness.  Please put it there.

21       Q.   Please take a look at this photograph.  Can you recognise the

22    building in question?

23       A.   That is Lepa Brena, that's the building.

24       Q.   Very well.  I'm going to show you another photograph, and then I'm

25    going to ask you something, if you recognise what it is.

Page 5717

 1            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I'm showing the witness photograph

 2    D39, Defence Exhibit D39.

 3       Q.   Please take a look.  Is that also the Lepa Brena building?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Is that the entranceway that leads to the apartment?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.  We no longer

 8    require the photographs.  You can take them back.

 9       Q.   If I understood you correctly, you entered the apartment only into

10    the hallway, as you said.  You did not go into the apartment further?

11       A.   No, I did not go in then.

12       Q.   Very well.  Tell me, please, do you know whether Kovac had been

13    wounded?

14       A.   Yes.  That was sometime -- well, after Saint Nikolas Day, perhaps

15    on the 24th of December.

16       Q.   Do you know if he was in hospital?

17       A.   Yes, yes.  He was in hospital for a few days.

18       Q.   Did you go to visit him in hospital?

19       A.   Yes, I did.

20       Q.   Do you know when he was discharged from the hospital?

21       A.   Well, it was before New Year, a day or two.  I'm not sure.  I'm

22    not sure of the exact day, but perhaps it was two or three days before the

23    New Year because he was at home for the New Year.

24       Q.   Did you come to see him while he lay at home?

25       A.   Yes, yes.  That's when I actually entered the apartment, when I

Page 5718

 1    came to visit him at home.

 2       Q.   Who was in the apartment?

 3       A.   He was there and that girl.

 4       Q.   Was there another girl there, too, on that occasion?

 5       A.   I did not see her.

 6       Q.   On that occasion when you were there, there was no one else there

 7    except for Raso and that girl?

 8       A.   Yes, that's right.

 9       Q.   In order to facilitate things for the interpreters, when I put a

10    question to you, don't answer straight away so that the interpreters have

11    time to interpret my question and then your answers.  We don't want to

12    have any overlapping between my questions and your answers.

13            What kind of a mood was Raso in then when you visited him after

14    the hospital?

15       A.   He was sad.  Then, he was sad.  We sat there, we had coffee, and

16    he was sad because that was the first New Year that he was supposed to

17    spend without his brother.  That is why he was sad, so we talked a bit

18    about that.  It was hard for him.

19       Q.   When you left after that visit, did somebody see you off?

20       A.   That girl set out with me, FWS-87, because nearby in Ribarska

21    Street, I don't know, there were one or two shops there.  Sometimes one

22    would be open and sometimes both.  She said that she needed to get some

23    wine, I think.

24       Q.   After that visit of yours, when did you see that girl again, and

25    did you see her again?

Page 5719

 1       A.   I did not.  I never saw her again.

 2       Q.   How many times were you at the apartment, regardless of whether

 3    you were actually paying a visit or whether you were just taking food

 4    there?

 5       A.   I said that I was there several times.  I can't say exactly now

 6    how many times, but I did not enter the apartment every time.

 7       Q.   I'm going to put a specific question to you:  Do you remember how

 8    many times you brought food to the apartment?

 9       A.   I don't know exactly how many times.  Several times for sure, but

10    I don't know how many.

11       Q.   Are you in a position to describe this apartment to us since quite

12    a bit of time has gone by?

13       A.   Yes, but I passed through this hallway, I passed this way into a

14    room that was connected to a niche.  I think it should be a dining room.

15    That's where we sat.  I didn't walk around the apartment; I have no idea

16    about the other rooms.

17       Q.   After Raso's wounding and after his recovery, do you know when he

18    went to the front line?

19       A.   Well, I don't know exactly when he went.

20       Q.   And when he came on leave, did he visit you, and did you and he

21    talk about Witness 87?  Did you ask whether she was there and how she was?

22       A.   It could have been the end of January, the beginning of February.

23    I don't know.  I'm not sure.  I asked him, and he said that he had seen

24    her off because he was supposed to stay longer at the front line, and he

25    was not sure whether she should stay in town for such long spells without

Page 5720

 1    him.

 2       Q.   Did he say where he had seen her off to?

 3       A.   He said that he had seen her off through some friends to

 4    Montenegro.  Niksic, I think.

 5       Q.   Did you talk about that girl some other time, or only that time?

 6       A.   Yes, yes, that he had heard from her.  I think he said that he had

 7    received a letter.  She thanked him.

 8       Q.   Did he show you that letter?

 9       A.   I can't remember.  We talked.  Perhaps he did, but I can't

10    remember.

11       Q.   Did Kovac have any brothers or sisters of his own?

12       A.   He had a brother.  He did not have a sister.

13       Q.   Was the brother older or younger?

14       A.   Older.

15       Q.   What was his name, do you know?

16       A.   Yes.  Milomir Kovac.  His nickname was Micko.

17       Q.   What did he do in Foca?

18       A.   Before the war, he was a taxi driver.

19       Q.   Did he also -- was he also a soldier in the army of Republika

20    Srpska?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Is he alive?

23       A.   No.  No, he is not alive.  He committed suicide.

24       Q.   Do you know when?

25       A.   This was in 1992, a few months after these war months; end of


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Page 5722

 1    July, August, something like that.

 2       Q.   Do you know the reason?

 3       A.   I don't know.  People talked that it was because of some event in

 4    Montenegro, but I don't know what actually happened.  That's what I heard.

 5       Q.   Tell me, please, finally:  On the basis of what you saw and on the

 6    basis of Raso told you, what can you infer; what kind of relationship did

 7    he have with this girl?

 8       A.   As far as I could see -- and he always said only the best about

 9    her -- I think that they were a boyfriend and a girlfriend.  I think she

10    was his girlfriend in the true meaning of the word, judging by her

11    behaviour and judging by what he always said to us after that, and judging

12    by the way he behaved towards her.

13            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just a second to

14    consult with my colleagues, please.

15            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes, please.

16                          [Defence counsel confer]

17            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, those would be all my

18    questions for this witness.

19            JUDGE MUMBA:  Any other counsel?  No?

20            MS. LOPICIC:  No, Your Honours.  We don't have any questions.

21            JUDGE MUMBA:  Cross-examination by the Prosecution?

22            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23                          Cross-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

24       Q.   Witness, what is your ethnicity?

25       A.   Serb.

Page 5723

 1       Q.   You are eight years older than (redacted) Radomir Kovac; right?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   And as you have told us, during the war you took care of him, you

 4    provided food to him, you helped him; right?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   On the 6th of December, 1999, you gave a statement to the --

 7            JUDGE MUMBA:  I'm sorry, Counsel.  Can we have this relationship

 8    correct? (redacted)

 9            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: (redacted).

10       Q. (redacted)

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   On 6th December 1999 you gave a statement to a Defence

13    investigator; right?  Do you recall that?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   And this Defence investigator was also (redacted)

16    (redacted); right?

17       A.   Yes.  Yes.  (redacted).

18       Q.   So you knew the investigator well and you socialised with her;

19    right?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   At some time before the war, you said, Mr. Kovac studied in

22    Sarajevo; right?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Did he also work there to earn his living?

25       A.   I think he did.

Page 5724

 1       Q.   What did he do?

 2       A.   He did something in the marketplace.  I think he sold something.

 3       Q.   Did he, for instance, sell vegetables?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   When the war started, did he volunteer or was he drafted?

 6       A.   He was mobilised.

 7       Q.   You said that you do not know in which unit he was.  Did you ever

 8    hear about the Dragan Nikolic Unit?

 9       A.   Yes, I did.

10       Q.   And was he a member of this unit?

11       A.   I heard about this unit very late, at the very end.  I didn't know

12    that he was in that unit.

13       Q.   Are you aware that this unit also had the name "Cosa's Guards"?

14       A.   No.  Cosa's Guards?  No.

15            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  With the help of the usher, I would like to

16    show the witness another list of names and pseudonyms.  In addition to the

17    names and pseudonyms she has already in front of her, there are a few

18    other names.  The Defence counsel have the list and the registrar as

19    well.

20            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  You can go ahead.  What number is it?

21            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would like to enter it as Prosecution

22    Exhibit 242.

23            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  Can we have the number, please.

24            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document will be marked

25    Prosecution Exhibit 242, tendered under seal.

Page 5725

 1            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you.

 2            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

 3       Q.   Witness, would you please have a look at the names and the

 4    pseudonyms, and can you tell us if you know the person DP2, without saying

 5    the name, please.  Do you know this person?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   He was the commander of the Dragan Nikolic Unit; right?

 8       A.   I'm not aware of that.

 9       Q. (redacted)

10       A.   No.

11       Q.   Please have a look again on the list.  There is also a person DP1

12    on the list.  Do you know this person?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   Would you please have a look around the courtroom and can you tell

15    me if you know the accused Zoran Vukovic.

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   And do you also know a person Zelja Zelenovic, Dragan Zelenovic?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   (redacted) Radomir Kovac used to hang out with DP1, Zoran

20    Vukovic; right?  They were together as soldiers and private persons;

21    right?

22       A.   Yes.  That was perhaps during the war, but I was not in town.

23    They didn't come to my place together.  I don't know.

24       Q.   What does it mean, you were not in town?  I understood that you

25    were in town.

Page 5726

 1       A.   No.  I mean, I did not go out into town at the time.  I had to try

 2    to get food, I had to take care of my children.

 3       Q.   But you said that Mr. Kovac used to be together with DP1 and Zoran

 4    Vukovic; right?

 5       A.   No, that's not what I said.  I just said that I knew DP1.  I did

 6    not see him socialising with him.

 7       Q.   And what about Mr. Kovac and Mr. Vukovic?  Did they used to see

 8    each other?  Did they go, for instance, into restaurants together or bars?

 9       A.   I don't know about that.  I don't know.

10       Q. (redacted)

11    (redacted).  Do you know Mr. Kunarac?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Did you see him during the war?

14       A.   I did not.

15       Q.   How do you know him, then?

16       A.   I know him from before.

17       Q.   You told us that Mr. Kovac lived in an apartment block in the Lepa

18    Brena; right?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   It was a rather nice apartment block, wasn't it?  As the name

21    says, Lepa Brena.

22       A.   A building like any other.  I didn't think of it as being anything

23    special.

24       Q.   And when did Mr. Kovac move into this apartment in the Brena

25    Block?

Page 5727












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Page 5728

 1       A.   I don't know exactly when he moved in.

 2       Q.   And approximately the month?

 3       A.   I don't know.  I know that he was there in the autumn, but when

 4    exactly, I don't know.

 5       Q.   Before he moved into the Lepa Brena building, he lived with his

 6    parents, didn't he?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   How, then, did the accused, an unmarried man with no children,

 9    come to get such an apartment?  Do you know that?

10       A.   I don't know.

11       Q.   The previous owner of this apartment was a Muslim, wasn't he?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Do you know his name?

14       A.   No.

15       Q.   What happened to this person, this previous owner?

16       A.   I don't know.

17       Q.   You know Mr. Zagos Kostic, don't you?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   You never saw him in the apartment when you went there?

20       A.   No.

21       Q.   Please have a look on the list again.  Did DP1 also have an

22    apartment in the Lepa Brena building?

23       A.   I don't know that.

24       Q.   You said that beginning November, Mr. Kovac asked you for food for

25    his girlfriend, right?

Page 5729

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   And you told us that the food situation was very difficult at that

 3    time, and you had to walk for hours to get food from your parents, right?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   So it was difficult for you to share the little food, wasn't it?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   Mr. Kovac received food from his unit, didn't he?

 8       A.   I don't know.  They did have their meals there.  He may have been

 9    able to bring something, some little back sometimes.

10       Q.   Let me remind you what you said to the Defence investigator when

11    you spoke about it in December 1999.  "On that occasion, he explained to

12    me that he sometimes brings food from his unit for this girl because he is

13    on good terms with their business manager."  That is what you said to the

14    investigator.  Do you recall that?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   So his access to food supplies from the army was rather good,

17    right?

18       A.   Yes, but he was a good man because he couldn't take too much for

19    himself, he had to leave enough for others as well.

20       Q.   But given his access to the food of the army, that was actually no

21    reason for him to ask food from you, food for which you had to go hours to

22    get it, right?

23       A.   Yes, I did.  But he is my brother, we consider -- we call each

24    other brothers, but we shared whatever we could.  And what I could bring

25    back from my parents were things that he could not obtain: meat or milk or

Page 5730

 1    cream cheese.  I was able to procure those foods of better quality.  These

 2    were things that he couldn't get or bring back.

 3       Q.   Witness, you described to us this little gathering at your

 4    neighbour's place, this neighbour DM, right?  She is also on the list.  On

 5    both lists, actually.

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   Do you know this neighbour well?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   You used to visit each other, didn't you?

10       A.   Not frequently.  When we had some food to share or a drink to have

11    together, and when there was electricity, but not so often.

12       Q.   But when this little gathering took place, it was not the first

13    time that you went there and not the last time, right?

14       A.   Yes, that is right.

15       Q.   You said that you arrived there at 7.00, around 7.00?

16       A.   I personally don't know exactly when I arrived, but I know I was

17    the first.  The others came after me.  And in the end, Kovac came with his

18    girlfriend.

19       Q.   But you told us when the Defence counsel asked you, you said you

20    arrived at about 7.00, and you left at about quarter to 8.  Right?

21       A.   I didn't say what time I arrived.  I said very approximately.  I

22    said I didn't remember what time it was.  But I know that they arrived

23    towards the end, and that I stayed for about 40 minutes, maybe an hour.

24    And I was the first who had to leave.

25       Q.   Let me clarify something.  You said that you arrived as the first,

Page 5731

 1    and you had to leave early, you said at about eight or quarter to eight.

 2    And in your previous statement you even said that you returned home at

 3    7.30.  Right?  So that --

 4       A.   I stayed with them for about 40 minutes, but I'm not sure about

 5    the time when I arrived or the time when I left.  I just don't remember.

 6       Q.   Do I understand you correctly, you stayed 40 minutes together with

 7    your (redacted), or 40 minutes at all on the party altogether?

 8       A.   No, no.  I was there when he arrived for another 40 minutes, and I

 9    had arrived before he came.

10       Q.   That's still not clear to me.  Were you together with him 40

11    minutes?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   So you don't know when you arrived exactly, you don't know when

14    you leave, but you know that you were together with him 40 minutes?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   When he came with the girl, did they eat?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   You said you saw them dance.  When did they dance?

19       A.   The neighbour, DM, she's a rather gay person, and she invited them

20    to dance after they had had a bite to eat.

21       Q.   You saw the girl dance, then?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   When did you learn the name of the girl?

24       A.   Then on that occasion.  I didn't quite understand the name, but

25    later on I remember that when I asked, Kovac told me what her name was.

Page 5732

 1       Q.   So that is, you heard the name on the party for the first time

 2    without registering properly?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   You did not talk with the girl, didn't you?

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   You did not ask her how she met Kovac; or you did not ask Kovac

 7    how he met her, right?

 8       A.   No.

 9       Q.   That means you were not curious at all how they met?

10       A.   We didn't talk about that.

11       Q.   You said that you went to the apartment on several occasions,

12    right?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   Did you see the name "Klanfa" on the door?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   On which floor was the apartment?

17       A.   If you count the ground floor, then the sixth floor.  The last

18    floor in that building.

19       Q.   When you went there, did you ever see another girl in the

20    apartment, or another soldier?

21       A.   No.

22       Q.   You said that you -- when the girl was alone, she opened the door

23    and you only went to the hallway, right?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   You said you never entered the apartment when the girl was alone.

Page 5733












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Page 5734

 1    Also you brought food; right?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Witness, you did not enter the apartment when the girl was there

 4    because you could not enter the apartment because she was locked in; isn't

 5    that right?

 6       A.   No.  She would unlock the door for me and I would enter the

 7    hallway and give her the food, but I didn't go any -- I didn't go inside.

 8    I would go back and she would lock the door when I left.

 9       Q.   Witness, you claim that by the end of December you met (redacted)

10    and the girl in the apartment and you spoke about the death of Radomir's

11    brother; right?

12       A.   Yes.  That was on the day before the New Year.  And that was the

13    first time I entered that apartment, in fact.

14       Q.   And you said that the girl then afterwards left together with you

15    to buy wine.

16       A.   She went out in front of the building.  She went in the direction

17    of the shops in Ribarsko Naselje, and I went to the left, because I live a

18    little further away.

19       Q.   And you said that she wanted to buy wine.

20       A.   That's what she said as we left.

21       Q.   For what reason did she want to buy wine?

22       A.   So that she and Raso could have a drink.  It was New Year's Eve,

23    and because he was wounded and everything.  They wanted to have a little

24    celebration.

25       Q.   And you said that was the last time that you actually saw the

Page 5735

 1    girl; right?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   In your previous statement, you described other opportunities when

 4    you saw the girl.  You said, especially after this buying of wine, "I went

 5    the other way and next time I saw this girl sometime about the day of

 6    St. John, when I brought food then, some more food."

 7            So what you told today is not the truth, isn't it?

 8       A.   That is correct.  I just didn't remember.  What I said was true,

 9    but it is also true that I saw her on one other occasion.  Yes, yes.  I'm

10    sorry.  I forgot.

11       Q.   Mr. Kovac was in prison also at that time for some time.  Do you

12    recall that?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   You claim that Mr. Kovac helped a girl out of Foca, right, and she

15    was thankful for this?

16       A.   Yes.  That's what he told me.  Raso told me that, that he had

17    helped her, that she had left, and he told me that she had been in touch

18    with him and that she had thanked him.

19       Q.   But that you know only from him; right?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Were there any rumours that the girl was killed instead?  Did you

22    hear about that?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   Why did Mr. Kovac help her out?  What was the reason?  What did he

25    tell you?

Page 5736

 1       A.   He told me then that she was his girlfriend and that that is why

 2    he helped her.

 3       Q.   Why did she not stay with him?  Why did he help her out?  What was

 4    the reason?

 5       A.   I don't know.

 6       Q.   When you talked to the investigator, you said the following:

 7      "Raso came on his leave, visited me, and told me he had the girl sent to

 8    Montenegro because he appraised she would be better off not to stay in

 9    Foca, as there was a chance he would be longer at the theatre of

10    operation, so he did not want some unpleasant things to happen to her."

11            Do you recall that he said that to you?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   What unpleasant things happened to Muslim girls in Foca?  What did

14    you mean, or what did you understand?

15       A.   I don't know, but we could all have experienced unpleasant things,

16    because a war was going on.

17       Q.   Unpleasant things for a girl, a Muslim girl in Foca.  That would

18    mean she could be raped; right?  Isn't that what you understood?

19       A.   No.

20            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  No further questions, Your Honour.

21            JUDGE MUMBA:  Re-examination, Mr. Kolesar?

22            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

23                          Re-examined by Mr. Kolesar:

24       Q.   I should like us to clear up this question of why you took food to

25    this girl.  Is it true what you said in your statement, that the accused

Page 5737

 1    Kovac asked you to take some food to that girl because he had told you

 2    that he was going to the front and he asked you to be kind enough to take

 3    care of her while he was away?  That is what you said in your statement on

 4    the 6th of December, 1999 to the investigator.

 5       A.   Yes.  The two of us very close, the closest in the family, and he

 6    came to me because he knew that I would do as he asked and that I would

 7    take some food away from my children and take it to his apartment, to his

 8    girlfriend.

 9       Q.   But in answer to the Prosecutor, when she said, "Why would you

10    take food when he received food from his military unit?" but here you said

11    that you took this food while he was at the front mostly.  Is that

12    correct?

13       A.   Yes.

14            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] That would be all, Your Honour.

15    Thank you.

16            JUDGE MUMBA:  Any other counsel?

17            MS. LOPICIC:  Your Honours, we do not have any questions for this

18    witness.  Thank you.

19            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you very much, Witness, for giving evidence to

20    the Tribunal.  You are now released.  You may leave the witness box.

21                          [The witness withdrew]

22                          [The witness entered court]

23            JUDGE MUMBA:  Good morning, Witness.  Make your solemn

24    declaration.

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

Page 5738

 1    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 2                          WITNESS:  WITNESS DI

 3                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you.  You can sit down.

 5            The counsel examining this witness, please.

 6            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] It will be me, Your Honour, thank

 7    you.

 8                          Examined by Mr. Kolesar:

 9       Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, good morning.

10       A.   Good morning.

11       Q.   I should like to inform you that Their Honours have granted your

12    request for protection during your testimony, so that your image will not

13    appear on the monitor and a pseudonym will be used in these proceedings

14    which will be the letters DI.  We will use this pseudonym instead of your

15    name.

16            Though we understand one another as we speak the same language, I

17    would like to ask you to wait after my question before giving your answer,

18    and do so slowly so that the interpreters can follow what we are saying

19    and so that they can interpret.

20            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show the

21    witness this piece of paper, and there are copies for Their Honours and

22    the Prosecution.

23       Q.   Will you please take a look at what is written on that piece of

24    paper and tell us whether that is your first and last name.

25       A.   Yes.

Page 5739












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Page 5740

 1       Q.   The date of birth, is that your date of birth?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   And the place of birth, does that correspond to your place of

 4    birth?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Could this document be admitted as a

 7    Defence exhibit under seal, please.

 8            JUDGE MUMBA:  Can we have the number?

 9            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is Defence Exhibit 161D, 161,

10    tendered under seal.

11            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

12       Q.   May I make one further request.  In the course of our

13    conversation, should you need to mention any of the names in front of you,

14    please don't use their names but, rather, their pseudonyms which are

15    indicated next to their names.  Is that clear?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Please tell me what education you have, and what is your

18    occupation.

19       A.   I completed a school of commerce, and I'm a saleswoman.

20       Q.   What were you doing before the war, during the war, and what are

21    you doing now?

22       A.   Before the war, I worked in a shop (redacted), during the war

23    and after the war.

24       Q.   This store, do you know where the Lepa Brena building is in

25    relation to that shop?

Page 5741

 1       A. (redacted).  There is the court,

 2    and then my shop.

 3       Q.   How far would that be in metres?

 4       A. (redacted).

 5       Q.   Did you live in Foca all your life?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   When the war broke out, since you were working as a saleswoman in

 8    a store, could you tell us what the living conditions were like, and I

 9    mean primarily in relation to electricity and water supplies, and, of

10    course, food supplies, hygiene products, and so on.

11       A.   The living conditions were very hard.  As a saleswoman, in my

12    shop, everything was sold out within four days, ranging from food products

13    to toilet paper, soaps, sanitary napkins, detergents, so that we literally

14    have nothing in the shop.

15            As for electricity, it was in short supply, as was the water.  It

16    was difficult to cook because, in my apartment, I didn't have a wood

17    stove.  My parents don't live far away, so I had to take my children to my

18    parents' to cook some meals for them.  Also, as far as water is concerned,

19    I had to get water in a jerrycan for my children so as to have water to

20    drink.  As for food, too.  I was short of soap and detergent.  I had to

21    take the washing to my parents' place to wash.

22       Q.   One more thing, please.  All those goods were sold out in the

23    shops, and no new supplies arrived; is that true?

24       A.   Yes.  There were no new deliveries because all the roads were

25    blocked.

Page 5742

 1            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is 11.00.  Shall we

 2    have our customary break now?

 3            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes, we will break now and continue the proceedings

 4    at 11.30 hours.

 5                          --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

 6                          --- On resuming at 11.34 a.m.

 7            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes, Mr. Kolesar, we'll continue with the

 8    examination-in-chief.

 9            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10       Q.   Before breaking off, my last question to you was what the

11    situation in Foca was before the war, and you answered that question.  My

12    next question to you is whether you know the person named Radomir Kovac,

13    and since when?

14       A.   Yes, I have known him since before the war.

15       Q.   Did you socialise?

16       A.   I knew him.  We greeted each other, but we did not socialise.

17       Q.   During the war in Foca, have you -- were you in his company at any

18    point?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Can you describe that?

21       A.   That was at the person with the pseudonym DM.

22       Q.   Do you remember when that was?

23       A.   That was in wintertime, around a patron saint day.

24       Q.   Do you remember the patron saint day?

25       A.   Yes.  That was the day or two following the St. Archangel's Day.

Page 5743

 1       Q.   For those who are not orthodox, can you tell us the exact date of

 2    that patron saint day?

 3       A.   No, I cannot tell you the exact date.

 4            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] The patron saint, St. Archangel

 5    Michael, is the 21st of November.  This is just for the Trial Chamber and

 6    those who may not know this fact.

 7            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you.

 8            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

 9       Q.   Do you remember who was present on that occasion?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Could you please name some of the persons.

12       A.   Person DM, then DH, and myself.

13       Q.   Do you remember when you arrived there?

14       A.   I arrived there around 6.30.

15       Q.   You mean 6.30 p.m.?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Now, who arrived first, you or the person that we call DH?

18       A.   DH.

19       Q.   And when did the accused Kovac arrive?

20       A.   He arrived somewhere between 7 and 7.30.  Closer to seven.

21       Q.   Did he arrive alone?

22       A.   No.  He arrived in the company of a girl.

23       Q.   Did he introduce her?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Did he say who that was?

Page 5744

 1       A.   He introduced her as his girlfriend.

 2       Q.   Did he say her name?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Did you remember it?

 5       A.   I did not remember it, but I know that it was a Muslim name.

 6       Q.   Can you tell me what was the occasion for your gathering?

 7       A.   The person DM was -- had gone to the patron saint day celebration,

 8    and then she was given some food there, and she then threw a party to

 9    share this food with us.

10       Q.   The persons whom you mentioned in addition to Mr. Kovac were all

11    (redacted)

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Can you tell me, what mood was Radomir in that night?

14       A.   He was in a good mood.

15       Q.   Could you please slow down a little bit for the interpreters.

16       A.   He entertained us all night.  He told jokes.  We laughed.

17       Q.   And the girl who came with him?

18       A.   The girl was also in a very good mood, and she laughed with us and

19    listened to the accused.

20       Q.   Who left first, you or Kovac and this girl?

21       A.   It was first Kovac and his girlfriend who left.

22       Q.   Can you tell me now, did you see that girl again?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Do you remember when?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 5745












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Page 5746

 1       Q.   And how many times?

 2       A.   I saw her about four times.

 3       Q.   Can you tell us when and where you saw her?

 4       A.   Once she passed by my shop.  I don't know where she was going.

 5    Once I went to the coffee bar called Leonardo, (redacted),

 6    and there she was with her girlfriends who were around her age.  We

 7    greeted each other there.  I greeted her; she greeted me back.  Then I saw

 8    her again around the New Year's Eve 1993, and I also saw her around our

 9    Orthodox Christmas.  She was carrying some bags.

10       Q.   The Leonardo coffee shop, where is that in relation to the shop

11    where you worked?

12       A.   It depends on the side from which you look.  As you enter the

13    store, (redacted)

14    (redacted)

15       Q. (redacted)

16       A.   Yes, that is right.

17       Q.   Did you also see Kovac around that time?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Was he alone or with someone?

20       A.   I saw him once when I saw the girl; that is, he was with her.

21       Q.   Do you know whether he was wounded?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   When you saw him around the new 1993 year, could you still see any

24    signs of his wound?

25       A.   Yes, he used crutches, used a crutch to walk.

Page 5747

 1       Q.   After this meeting at your neighbour around St. Archangel's Day,

 2    did you ever talk to Kovac about this girl?  Did you ask any questions who

 3    she was, where she was from, how did she end up at his place?

 4       A.   No.

 5       Q.   Do you know whether Radomir had any siblings?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   Who did he have?

 8       A.   He had a brother.

 9       Q.   Do you know who was older?

10       A.   His brother was older.

11       Q.   Did they look alike?

12       A.   Well --

13       Q.   Do you know what happened this older brother?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Can you tell us, please?

16       A.   He committed suicide.

17       Q.   Have you ever heard about the reason for it?  Did anybody say

18    anything?

19       A.   I don't know much about it; only what I read in the newspaper.

20       Q.   Can you please tell me, on the basis of what you saw that night

21    concerning the relationship between Radomir and this girl, what did you

22    conclude?

23       A.   I concluded that she was his girlfriend, because he behaved very

24    nicely towards her.

25            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  This was

Page 5748

 1    my last question.

 2            JUDGE MUMBA:  Cross-examination by the Prosecution?

 3            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4                          Cross-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

 5       Q.   Witness, you know the Kovac family quite well, the family; right?

 6       A.   I know him, but -- I know them, but I don't know them that well.

 7       Q.   But you used to socialise with Mr. Kovac and the Witness DM;

 8    right?

 9       A.   I did not socialise with her.  We were just neighbours.

10       Q.   But you went to meet her occasionally, didn't you, have these

11    little parties; right?

12       A.   We had one party when she invited us.

13       Q.   That was the only time that you ever went to meet her in her home,

14    the only time; not before that and not afterwards?

15       A.   Before that, we were not that close and we did not socialise.

16       Q.   And afterwards?

17       A.   After that, we were in the neighbourhood.  We did not socialise

18    that much; only when we were invited to that party.

19       Q.   You mentioned, that after the outbreak of the war, you had

20    difficulties with goods in your store; right?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   But during the war you operated the store, so you received

23    supplies afterwards; right?

24       A.   My store had worked before the war, and after the conflict stopped

25    we did not receive any supplies because all the roads were blocked.

Page 5749

 1       Q.   But since when did you then start operating your store again after

 2    this initial fighting?

 3       A.   I don't recall.

 4       Q.   But in November 1992, around that time when you had more contact

 5    with Mr. Kovac, you operated your store again, did you?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   And from where did you receive your deliveries?  Was it from

 8    Montenegro?

 9       A.   We did not receive deliveries from anywhere.

10       Q.   But when you operated your shop, you said at a certain point in

11    time, after the outbreak of the war, it was empty, and then in November

12    you operated it again.  So you had to have some goods, didn't you?

13       A.   We did not have any merchandise.  We only had it before the

14    conflict.  And I told you that everything was sold in three or four days,

15    and after that, we did not receive any additional deliveries.

16       Q.   When did you start to sell again goods from your shop?

17       A.   I don't remember.

18       Q.   What about November 1992, autumn 1992?  Was the shop open or was

19    it not?

20       A.   Excuse me.  Can you please repeat the question?

21       Q.   In November 1992, at the time when the party was, was your shop

22    open or was it still closed due to lack of goods?

23       A.   It was not closed at that time because of the lack of goods.

24       Q.   So you had goods in autumn 1992?

25       A.   I told you:  We had goods for three or four days when we first

Page 5750

 1    opened.  After that, we did not have any anymore.

 2       Q.   That's understood.  But at a certain point in time you have opened

 3    the shop again and goods again to sell, isn't it, or did you leave it

 4    closed throughout the war, till 1995?

 5       A.   We did not receive any goods, any deliveries from anywhere, but we

 6    had to keep working.

 7       Q.   But what did you sell?  In a shop you have to sell goods, and if

 8    you don't have no goods, you cannot sell anything.

 9       A.   We had to stay open, regardless of whether there was any

10    merchandise in the store or not.  We had to keep the store open.

11       Q.   So you had your store open, but you didn't sell anything because

12    there was nothing there, as late as the end of 1992; is that what you say?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   You described this gathering at DM's place and you told us that

15    you arrived there at 6.30.  When did you leave?

16       A.   I don't remember.

17       Q.   And were you the last guest to leave?

18       A.   I don't remember.

19       Q.   You mentioned the other neighbours that were there, that is, DH,

20    but who else?

21       A.   DM and myself.

22       Q.   DK was not there?

23       A.   DK was not there.

24       Q.   Do you recall that you gave a statement to the Defence

25    investigator, that is, DK?  Do you recall that?

Page 5751












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Page 5752

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   In that statement, you also mention a person with the name Borka.

 3    Was she there?

 4       A.   I don't know this person, but I remember that there was a

 5    neighbour by the name of Borka.

 6       Q.   The neighbour DH, when did she leave?  Do you recall that?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   When did she leave?

 9       A.   She left around 7.30, half past 7.

10       Q.   Do you recall why she left early?

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   You said that, on this evening, Mr. Kovac and the girl was there.

13    Did they eat dinner with you?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   How long did they eat dinner?  How long did that take,

16    approximately?

17       A.   I don't know how long the dinner lasted.

18       Q.   Was it just a brief snack, or was it a real meal that would take

19    some time?

20       A.   There was roast meat, and there were desserts.

21       Q.   When did they start to dance?  Was it after dinner?

22       A.   After dinner.

23       Q.   And who danced?

24       A.   We all danced.

25       Q.   And who started the dance; do you recall that?

Page 5753

 1       A.   No.

 2       Q.   Did the girl dance?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Did Mr. Kovac and the girl dance together, something like a waltz

 5    or so that they touch each other?

 6       A.   They danced together.  They did not waltz.

 7       Q.   But they touched each other, this...

 8       A.   We did not dance.

 9       Q.   Who did not dance?

10       A.   We all danced.

11       Q.   Because in the transcript it says, "We did not dance," so that's a

12    mistake, then?  You all danced?

13       A.   I did not say we did not dance.  I said we all danced.

14            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness said that

15    -- there are two words to describe dance.  One can also mean to play

16    games.  It's the same word that can be used for one or the other.

17            JUDGE MUMBA:  Let us clear it with the witness.

18            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

19       Q.   What do you mean?  What exactly did everybody do?  Did you all get

20    up and dance together, move around and dance, or do you mean you played a

21    game?

22       A.   I don't understand your question.

23       Q.   What did the people do?  Can you remember and can you tell us what

24    the people did?

25       A.   I said we did not have a formal dance like a ballroom dance.  We

Page 5754

 1    just danced.

 2       Q.   Okay, that's now clarified.

 3            When did you hear the girl's name?  Was she introduced to you when

 4    they arrived, Kovac and the girl?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   That is when you heard her name?

 7       A.   I did not understand, I did not get it right away, but I know it

 8    was Muslim.

 9       Q.   Did you talk to the girl?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   What did you talk about?

12       A.   We just spoke, and it was a regular kind of conversation, and we

13    laughed because Raso was telling jokes.

14       Q.   Did she tell you where she came from?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   Did she tell you how she met Mr. Kovac, or did Mr. Kovac tell you

17    how they met?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   Did you ever ask them how they met, a Muslim girl and a Serb

20    soldier?

21       A.   No.

22       Q.   Were you not curious, during the war?

23       A.   No, no.

24       Q.   Nobody on the party was curious?

25       A.   No.

Page 5755

 1       Q.   Witness, you claim that you saw this girl on some more occasions

 2    in town, right?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   You did not talk to her on these occasions, did you?

 5       A.   I only met her once in the coffee bar, and we greeted each other.

 6       Q.   What were you doing in Cafe Leonardo?

 7       A.   I stopped by to take some coffee.

 8       Q.   And what was she doing when you saw her there?

 9       A.   She was drinking coffee.

10       Q.   Was Kovac around on that occasion?  Was he also there?

11       A.   No, no.

12       Q.   Were any other soldiers there at that time?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   How many girls were there?

15       A.   About two or three girls were with her, more or less the same age.

16       Q.   Were they also Muslim girls?

17       A.   I don't know.

18       Q.   You said that Cafe Leonardo is very close to your store, right?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Cafe Leonardo is a place where Serb soldiers met, right?

21       A.   No.

22       Q.   No?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   Didn't the soldiers meet there during the war, having coffee?

25       A.   No, no.

Page 5756

 1       Q.   The soldiers belonging to the Dragan Nikolic Detachment met there,

 2    right?

 3       A.   No.

 4       Q.   You never saw them?

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   You know what Dragan Nikolic Detachment is?  It's a unit of the

 7    Bosnian army.

 8       A.   No.

 9       Q.   You don't know this unit?

10       A.   No, I don't.  I don't know about it, no.

11       Q.   Let me clarify something. (redacted)

12    (redacted)

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   From your shop, you can see who is going in and out, right?

15       A.   I could not see.

16       Q.   You cannot see who is -- you couldn't see, (redacted)

17    (redacted)  How does that come?

18       A.   I did not look because I was working.

19       Q.   And you claim that the Cafe Leonardo is not a place where soldiers

20    met; is that what you say?

21       A.   Yes, yes.  It's not a place where soldiers met.

22       Q.   Do you know the Brena Block?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Did you live close to the Brena Block?

25       A.   I did not, I did not.  I only worked nearby.

Page 5757












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Page 5758

 1       Q.   Did you know that Mr. Kovac had an apartment there?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   Do you know a soldier with the name Jagos Kostic?

 4       A.   No.

 5       Q.   You mentioned that Mr. Kovac was wounded at a certain point in

 6    time.  Do you also know that he was in prison at some time?

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   Witness, you mentioned Mr. Kovac's brother, and you said that he

 9    committed suicide and you read about it in the newspaper.  What did you

10    read?

11       A.   I do not remember a lot of this, but I know it said that there was

12    some kind of killing that was committed outside our town, and that he took

13    part in it, and that he therefore committed suicide.

14       Q.   Was Mr. Kovac also involved in this?  Did you read about that?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   Witness, you gave a statement, we have already mentioned it, to

17    the Defence investigator, the Witness DK, right?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q. (redacted)

20       A.   I don't know.

21       Q.   Did you know her from before the war?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   Until that time in December 1999, you did not have a particular

24    reason to focus on this little party, right?

25       A.   I do not understand what you are asking me at all.

Page 5759

 1       Q.   This little party in 1992 was not of importance for you

 2    personally, right?  It was just a little party.

 3       A.   I don't know what you're asking me.

 4       Q.   This party you took -- participated in was not an event you would

 5    never forget, right; it was just a normal little gathering, right?

 6            THE INTERPRETER:  There was no audible answer from the witness.

 7            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

 8       Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... say yes?  It was -- we

 9    couldn't hear you.

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   And until this interview, this interview in December 1999, you did

12    not have a reason to remember this party at all; right?  You have to speak

13    into the microphone.

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   And you also had no reason to observe the girl, the girl you saw

16    on this single event; you did not have a reason to observe her, what she

17    was doing in Foca, right?

18       A.   Why would I observe her when she behaved just like the rest of

19    us?

20       Q.   Exactly.  Exactly.  But you claim you know, after eight years, you

21    know something, with exact dates and exact times even, although it didn't

22    concern you at all.

23       A.   I did not say that.

24       Q.   Yes, you did.  You described to us an, for you, unimportant event

25    eight years ago, and you gave us exact dates and times.

Page 5760

 1       A.   I don't understand.

 2            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  No further questions, Your Honour.

 3            JUDGE MUMBA:  Any re-examination?

 4            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

 5            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you very much, Witness, for giving evidence to

 6    the Tribunal.  You may leave the witness box.

 7                          [The witness withdrew]

 8                          [The witness entered court]

 9            JUDGE MUMBA:  Good morning, Witness, and please make the solemn

10    declaration.

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.  I solemnly declare

12    that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13                          WITNESS:  WITNESS DV

14                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

15            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you.  Please sit down.

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17            JUDGE MUMBA:  Counsel?

18            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19                          Examined by Mr. Kolesar:

20       Q.   Good day, Witness.

21       A.   Good day.

22       Q.   Are you prepared to answer the questions that I have for you, both

23    physically and mentally?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   I should like to inform you that the Court has granted your

Page 5761

 1    request to be given protective measures.  Your face will not be displayed

 2    on the monitor and your name and surname will not be pronounced.  You will

 3    have a certain pseudonym assigned to you consisting of two certain

 4    letters.  What I would like to ask you straight away is to wait for me to

 5    finish my questions and then pause briefly for the interpreters to

 6    interpret them, and then answer.  Please speak slowly so that the

 7    interpreters could also interpret what you are saying.

 8            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher to

 9    show this document, this piece of paper, to the witness, and I would also

10    like the Trial Chamber and the registry and the Office of the Prosecutor

11    to receive their own copies.

12       Q.   Please take a look at this piece of paper that is in front of you

13    and tell us whether this is your name and surname.

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Is that your date of birth?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Is that your place of birth?

18       A.   Yes.

19            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I would like this document to be

20    admitted as a Defence Exhibit under seal, please.

21            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  Can we have the number?

22            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document will be marked D162

23    and will be admitted under seal.

24            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

25       Q.   There are certain names and surnames, or just names, on this piece

Page 5762

 1    of paper.  These are also persons whose identity is protected, just like

 2    yours is, so if you are supposed to mention one of these names, please do

 3    not mention the actual name; just mention the pseudonym that is there.  I

 4    hope that this is clear.

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Tell me, please:  What kind of education have you got?

 7       A.   I completed secondary medical school.

 8       Q.   What did you do before the war?

 9       A.   I worked in the (redacted) at the ward of internal

10    medicine.

11       Q.   Very well.  Tell me, what were relations like in the hospital that

12    you worked in before the war?

13       A.   Well, good, as far as I could notice.

14       Q.   Very well.  Can you tell us something about the composition of the

15    medical staff there, how many Serbs and how many Muslims were there?

16       A.   No, not really.  I don't know about that and I can't really say

17    anything about the proportions concerned.  The head of the ward of

18    internal medicine was a Serb, an ethnic Serb, and my immediate superior,

19    the head nurse, was a Muslim.

20       Q.   If I understood you correctly, you are saying that the staff

21    employed at the hospital included both Serbs and Muslims but that you are

22    not aware of the exact proportions.

23       A.   Yes.  Yes.

24       Q.   Did you notice among the medical staff some kind of divisions

25    between Serbs and Muslims?

Page 5763












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Page 5764

 1       A.   No, I did not notice any such thing.

 2       Q.   You know that the multiparty elections took place in 1990.  Were

 3    there any divisions along ethnic lines during these multiparty elections?

 4    I'm talking about the hospital staff.

 5       A.   No.  I really did not notice anything like that.  I do apologise,

 6    but you have to understand that, in that period of time, I had two very

 7    young children.  I took a car to work, I took the car back, and working at

 8    the ward of internal medicine is a very difficult job, and I really spent

 9    all my working hours working with my patients only.

10       Q.   Let me remind you of something.  Did you perhaps hear or see about

11    military trucks of the Yugoslav People's Army taking some kind of medical

12    equipment or material from the hospital?

13       A.   No.  The internal medicine ward is at the outskirts of the

14    compound of the hospital, and since I was there in hospital and I did move

15    about, I probably would have noticed.

16       Q.   Tell me, after the conflict broke out in Foca, where did you work,

17    and what did you do?

18       A.   At the very beginning when the war broke out, I was in hospital

19    because that's where my place was at the time.  After the first few days,

20    due to war operations, my colleagues could not report in for work.  And we

21    were in hospital throughout that time, during those first few days of the

22    war, until there was normal communication that was established between

23    town and hospital, that is to say, so that the staff could come to work

24    and go back home normally.

25       Q.   When the situation was more or less normalised, what did you do

Page 5765

 1    then?  Did you remain in this civilian general hospital, or did you do

 2    something else?

 3       A.   For a certain period of time, I worked both in the hospital and

 4    from time to time I worked at the garrison clinic where that was

 5    established because there wasn't enough personnel there.

 6       Q.   What do you mean when you say garrison clinic?  Is that a military

 7    clinic?

 8       A.   Yes, yes.  That is a clinic that was being established at that

 9    time, alongside with the war operations that were taking place.  It wasn't

10    a real clinic.  All of it improvised.  As for medical materials --

11       Q.   I understand that, but I'm asking you, who did it cater to,

12    civilians or soldiers, the military, or both?

13       A.   Both, both, according to what was needed.

14       Q.   And after that?  What happened after that?  Did you continue

15    working both in the hospital and at this clinic?

16       A.   No, no.  After a certain amount of time, since personnel were

17    coming in to the hospital, I spent more of my time at the garrison clinic

18    rather than go to the hospital.  But as I stayed there, I would go out

19    into the field from time to time when necessary.

20       Q.   Can you tell us, when you were out in the field, with which unit

21    did you spend most of your time?

22       A.   Since there weren't any units then, I mean particular units, I

23    went wherever it was necessary.  I spent most of my time with this unit

24    that was, that was supposed to assist those areas that were weaker.

25       Q.   Did it later get a name?

Page 5766

 1       A.   It was named after its then -- I mean, after the man who was in

 2    charge of that unit.

 3       Q.   If you know, you can tell us the name.

 4       A.   You will take into account what I'm saying, for safety reasons,

 5    for the sake of my own family's safety, I cannot say the name.  If that

 6    means anything to you, I can describe it to you, but I would not want to

 7    have any problems when I return.

 8            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be given a

 9    piece of paper and a pen so that she could write down the name of this

10    unit.

11       A.   Thank you.

12            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to have

13    this document admitted into evidence as a Defence exhibit under seal,

14    please.

15            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  Can we have the number, please.

16            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The document will be marked D163,

17    Defence Exhibit 163, and it will be admitted under seal.

18            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

19       Q.   Tell me, please, in the field and also during your free time, what

20    kind of rapport did you have with the members of this unit?

21       A.   Good rapport, both in the field and apart from that.

22       Q.   Was this to mutual satisfaction, yours and theirs?

23       A.   Well, mine, yes, and I can't say about them.

24       Q.   Do you know Radomir Kovac?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 5767

 1       Q.   How did you meet him, and when?

 2       A.   When I arrived to the garrison clinic, when I first came there, I

 3    met him.  I personally knew him before the war.  He graduated from high

 4    school in our town.  It so happened that he went to school together with

 5    my sister.

 6       Q.   Do you know what his friends and acquaintances called him?

 7       A.   Raso.

 8       Q.   Can you tell us about him as a boy and as a young man in terms of

 9    his behaviour and general disposition?

10       A.   He was always in a good mood, a vivacious person, always ready to

11    crack a joke, perhaps at his own expense, for the most part.

12       Q.   Please take a look around the courtroom and see if whether you can

13    recognise Radomir Kovac among those who are present.

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Tell me, which person is that?

16       A.   That is the person sitting behind you wearing a suit and a tie.

17       Q.   Madam, all three persons have a coat and tie.

18       A.   I do not see the others.

19       Q.   Starting counting from the door, please.  That's the easiest.

20       A.   The third person.

21       Q.   The third person from which door?

22       A.   From this door.

23            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] May the record reflect that the

24    witness has identified the accused Radomir Kovac.

25            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.

Page 5768

 1            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

 2       Q.   Since you saw him during the war, what did he wear at the time?

 3       A.   During the first days he wore that SNB uniform, a green one.

 4    Everybody wore that.  And only after a longer period of time -- I cannot

 5    tell you exactly how long this was, but this was in the beginning.  After

 6    that they got some kind of camouflage uniforms that they wore out in the

 7    field.

 8       Q.   Did he have any insignia, something to show his rank, or was he a

 9    plain soldier?

10       A.   No, no, no.  No rank, no insignia.

11       Q.   Since you say that you went out into the field with different

12    units, when you were in the field with his unit, did you see him issuing

13    orders to people or --

14       A.   No.

15       Q.   During the war, was he perhaps a member of the police or deputy

16    commander of the police?

17       A.   What kind of police?

18       Q.   Military police.

19       A.   No, no.  The military police had insignia of their own.  They were

20    primarily in town.  They had white belts and also some insignia on their

21    shoulders -- on their arms, rather.  I can't really say exactly now.

22       Q.   Today you said that you had a good rapport with all the members of

23    the units and also with the accused Kovac.  Tell me, did he sometimes

24    require some help from you; if so, when, and what was this all about?

25       A.   Well, more or less everyone sought some kind of help, but Raso on

Page 5769












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Page 5770

 1    a few occasions, perhaps in November, mid-November, asked me somewhere in

 2    the field -- they would come to my tent.  It wasn't a real tent.  It was

 3    sort of an improvised thing.  Others came to ask me for medicines, but he

 4    came to ask me for some antibiotics and for some sanitary materials.

 5       Q.   What did you say in response to that?  Did you give this to him?

 6    Did you ask him what he needed it for?

 7       A.   No, I did not give it to him then, because I did not have enough

 8    medical materials there in the field.  And I asked him what he needed it

 9    for, and he said to me that he needed this for home, for his girlfriend,

10    and that he would tell me about that later when we came back from the

11    field.

12       Q.   Upon returning from the field, did you grant that request of his?

13       A.   Yes.  Yes.  The next day, or rather upon our return from the

14    field, I took this to the cafe where we would meet and I left this with

15    the waiter when he told me that he needed this for his girlfriend.  Then I

16    got for him what I had for myself as well, so I also brought him sanitary

17    napkins for women from home.

18       Q.   He said that he needed all of that for his girlfriend, if I

19    understood you correctly.

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Did you meet that girlfriend at some point?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Can you describe this to us a bit; when and where?

24       A.   The first time was in the Leonardo coffee bar, where in the late

25    afternoon or early evening I was sitting with a man from my unit who also

Page 5771

 1    had a girlfriend of the same ethnic group, he under number 191.  And I was

 2    sitting with them, and Raso entered Leonardo in a white coat, with two

 3    girls.  He came up to our table, said hello to us, and asked me to come

 4    over to his table to meet his girlfriend, and he went and sat down at

 5    their table next to the bar.

 6       Q.   It was a long time ago, but could you describe those three girls?

 7       A.   Well, it would be rather difficult, and if I were to try to

 8    describe them, I'm afraid it would not be correct.  I know they were

 9    attractive, and I think that this one under 191 was extremely attractive,

10    beautiful and appealing.

11       Q.   But she wasn't with them, was she?

12       A.   No.  I'm sorry.  This one was sitting with me -- I'm so sorry.  I

13    beg your pardon.  I mixed up the names.  Eighty-seven.  And the girl under

14    number 191 was sitting with us at our table.

15       Q.   What was the mood of Kovac's friend, and did you go to their table

16    after they had asked you to?

17       A.   I said good-bye to my friends at the table and I went over to

18    their table.  They were in an extremely good mood.  And Raso is such a

19    person; he's so cheerful that he cheers up every company.

20       Q.   Perhaps see him again tomorrow [as interpreted]?

21       A.   Yes.  The next day I went shopping and I dropped in at Leonardo to

22    see what's new, and I saw Raso there.  And he asked me whether I thought

23    his girlfriend, or "the little one," as he called her, whether I found her

24    attractive.  And then I asked him who she was, because I know that he

25    doesn't fall in love easily, but he seemed to be in love then.  He told me

Page 5772

 1    that she was of the same ethnic group as Djura's.  He told me her name,

 2    and I joked with him and this other friend of mine, teasing them that they

 3    had really fallen in love this time and that their young girlfriends were

 4    really sweet.

 5       Q.   After that evening when you saw that girl with Kovac, did you see

 6    her any other time?

 7       A.   Yes, I did.  I saw her in passing in front of the building where

 8    they lived.  She was going shopping, to buy some food for herself and

 9    Raso.

10       Q.   Did you see her again in the Leonardo coffee bar?

11       A.   I really don't know.  It was all such a long time ago that I

12    really cannot recollect all those details.

13       Q.   I understand that.  Tell me, please:  Did you go to the apartment

14    used by Kovac?

15       A.   Yes.  This was in December, actually, mid-December, after Raso had

16    been wounded.  I went to take some medicine for him.  I went there twice.

17    On one occasion, the person number 87 made coffee.  She was sitting

18    there.  And the second time, I didn't see her.  She went off to prepare

19    lunch.  I didn't inquire into any of those details.

20       Q.   On those two occasions when you went there to take those

21    medicines, Raso and this young girl, were they alone or was someone else

22    there?

23       A.   No.  There was this other girl who was with them whom I had seen

24    at Leonardo.  She didn't have any close contact with Raso, so I didn't

25    really pay much attention to her as compared to 87.

Page 5773

 1       Q.   Could you perhaps tell us in which building that apartment was?

 2       A.   Of course I can.

 3       Q.   Tell us, please.  Tell me, what building is it?

 4       A.   It's a building in the centre of town.  It's a new building.  We

 5    call it the Lepa Brena.  I don't know how else to describe it for you.

 6       Q.   That is sufficient.  Thank you.  Do you remember on what floor

 7    that apartment was, as you went there twice?

 8       A.   Which floor?

 9       Q.   Yes.

10       A.   It was the top floor.

11       Q.   If I understood you correctly, you mentioned a moment ago that the

12    accused Kovac was wounded at the end of December.  Do you know anything

13    more about that?  Was he in hospital where he was wounded, and so on?

14       A.   Yes.  He was wounded, I think, in his right ankle.  I don't know

15    how that area is called.  There's a relay station, I think, there:

16    Repetitor.  He went to hospital.  A swelling started.  I gave him

17    antibiotics.  I bandaged the wound.  And because of this swelling, I sent

18    him to a medical institution to be treated.

19       Q.   Since you told us that you had known him from before the war, you

20    were with him in the field, tell me:  What kind of person was he as a man,

21    as a young man?  What kind of a temperament he had, how he behaved?

22       A.   I think I already told you.  He was always gay.  He was always in

23    a good mood, always ready to crack a good joke, as I said.

24       Q.   Let us go back to this young woman.  When did you see her for the

25    last time?

Page 5774

 1       A.   After that, I think I saw her perhaps one more time.  It was so

 2    long ago, as I said, that I cannot now really recollect all the details,

 3    but I know it was sometime in the spring that I met Raso, because he was

 4    away from the unit for a long time.  And I asked him about his girlfriend,

 5    and he told me that, with the help of some Montenegrins, he had had her

 6    transported to Montenegro because he has to go to the front and doesn't

 7    dare leave her alone, and that he had received a letter from her in which

 8    she thanked him for all the assistance, love, and attention he had shown

 9    her, and for enabling her to leave town.

10       Q.   Apart from taking medicines and visiting his home when he left

11    hospital towards the end of the year, did you, as a nurse, provide any

12    other medical treatment to him during the war operations?

13       A.   I think this was sometime at the beginning of war, maybe in June.

14    He had the beginning of pneumonia.  He had come back from the front.  As

15    we didn't have any room or conditions for treating him in hospital, he

16    stayed home at his parents' place with his mother and father.

17       Q.   Did you give him any kind of medical aid?

18       A.   Yes.  When he called me to come and see him, I was able -- I

19    consulted a doctor working in our dispensary.  He prescribed antibiotics

20    and rest.  And as in the garrison clinic, a nurse wasn't regularly on

21    duty, and they trusted me, so I was able to leave when necessary for

22    medical purposes, and I would be the one to provide that medical aid.

23       Q.   Let me repeat:  I know this was more than eight years ago.  Do you

24    remember the kind of therapy you administered and for how long he had to

25    rest, how many penicillin shots he had to have?

Page 5775












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Page 5776

 1       A.   He was prescribed ten shots as his condition -- but because his

 2    condition was improving, I think he was administered five or six, and he

 3    wouldn't take any more.  He said it was painful; he couldn't be bothered.

 4    He would prefer to have capsules rather than injections, even though the

 5    physician had prescribed those injections for him.

 6       Q.   You told us that you lived in Foca throughout the war.  Could you

 7    tell me briefly what the general situation was like in 1992 regarding

 8    supplies, electricity, food, hygiene, goods for personal hygiene, water,

 9    and so on?

10       A.   You can imagine what it was like in wartime.  It was terrible.  No

11    water, no electricity.  There was even a shortage of candles.  So when

12    there was no electricity, we used oil for lighting, and we hardly had any

13    water.  Also, we were rather scared to use the water for drinking because

14    we were afraid that the drainage system had been hit.  You know what it

15    can be like in wartime.

16       Q.   Was fresh food somehow procured?

17       A.   No.  There were no deliveries.

18       Q.   Why?

19       A.   Because all the roads for a long time were blocked, and wherever

20    anyone tried to go, there were mines and ambushes.  There was a great

21    number of accidents in transport, so no one dared to try and deliver any

22    food.

23       Q.   And finally, tell me, please, do you know whether Radomir had any

24    siblings?

25       A.   Yes, he had a brother.  I think he was older than he because he

Page 5777

 1    already had a family in town.  And he resembled him a great deal.  They

 2    resembled one another like twins, but I think this other one was older

 3    because he had already established a family whereas Raso had not.

 4       Q.   Do you know the name of that brother and what his occupation was

 5    before the war?

 6       A.   I know they called him Misko.  That is how I know him, by this

 7    nickname, as a citizen.  What he did, I don't know.  I know he had two

 8    children, that he lived in town.

 9       Q.   Was he also a participant in the war?

10       A.   Yes, he was, together with Raso.

11       Q.   Is he alive?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   Do you know what fate befell him?

14       A.   I heard, at least that is what I think, and that is what it says

15    in the documents, that he committed suicide.

16       Q.   Do you know why?

17       A.   I do not know because what I didn't see I cannot tell you about,

18    but the rumour was in our circles that because of something that had

19    happened in Montenegro.  I really cannot tell you because I simply don't

20    know.

21       Q.   And my last question for you, you saw this young woman on a number

22    of occasions.  You heard what Radomir had told you and the confessions he

23    made to you.  So could you tell us what kind of relationship they had, in

24    your opinion, that is, Radomir and this young woman under 87?

25       A.   What kind of relationship?

Page 5778

 1       Q.   In your opinion, yes.

 2       A.   It was a good one, as the relationship between 191 and the man she

 3    had children with.  It was an extremely good, close relationship.

 4            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, those were my

 5    questions.

 6            JUDGE MUMBA:  Any other counsel?  Yes, Mr. Jovanovic.

 7            MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I would like to

 8    ask a few questions of this witness.

 9            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes, go ahead.

10            MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before I begin with

11    my questions, I have a slight problem, if I can call it that.  In the

12    testimony of this witness and in her statement, persons have been

13    mentioned, names have been mentioned, who are not protected witnesses.  We

14    assume that most those persons are now in the federation of

15    Bosnia-Herzegovina, and we are wondering whether the mention of those

16    names could perhaps cause some problems for those persons, and therefore,

17    the suggestion of the Defence would be that those names should not be

18    mentioned in public.

19            And we have already prepared a list which we would like to provide

20    to you and the Prosecution.  Those are the same persons whose names are

21    mentioned in the statement of this witness.  I thought perhaps it would be

22    advisable not to mention them in public.

23            JUDGE MUMBA:  Mr. Jovanovic, you haven't given us actual reasons

24    why there are to be problems in mentioning those names; and when

25    Mr. Kolesar was examining the witness in chief, there wasn't such a

Page 5779

 1    concern at all.  You are simply putting something which you are not even

 2    certain of yourself.  You are saying "perhaps."  I mean, why?  What are

 3    the actual reasons why those names already mentioned should now have

 4    pseudonyms?

 5            MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, these names have not

 6    been mentioned.  These are quite different names.  They are names of

 7    persons about which I shall ask the witness and which Zoran Vukovic helped

 8    in one way or another.  Those persons are now in the federation.  In view

 9    of the situation in Bosnia now, I don't know whether the mention of these

10    names who were assisted by a Serb soldier and who had contact with a Serb

11    soldier, whether this could cause unpleasantness to those persons.  I

12    don't mind reading out those names and saying them in public.

13            JUDGE MUMBA:  Okay.  What you're saying is these people haven't

14    yet been mentioned so far in evidence in this trial.

15            MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, that's what I'm

16    saying.

17            JUDGE MUMBA:  What ethnic group do they belong to?

18            MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] They are Muslims and Croats.

19            JUDGE HUNT:  When you say the situation in Bosnia now, why would a

20    Muslim or a Croat be embarrassed by the fact that they have been helped

21    during the war by a Serb soldier?

22            MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Let me try and explain, Your

23    Honour.  The war in Bosnia ended thanks to the intervention of the

24    International Community; however, internal relationships between the

25    ethnic communities are still not what we would like them to be, and that

Page 5780

 1    is why I'm suggesting this.

 2            I don't mind reading out their names in full in public, but I fear

 3    that possibly some of them might have problems as a result of this.  That

 4    is my only concern.

 5                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 6            JUDGE MUMBA:  The Trial Chamber would like to hear from the

 7    Prosecution on this motion.

 8            MS. KUO:  Your Honours, these are not Prosecution witnesses, so we

 9    don't really have any particular position on their security.  However,

10    based on what Mr. Jovanovic has said, it doesn't really make sense to us

11    why there should be any concerns at all.  These are Muslims who were

12    helped by Serbs.  We've had many witnesses come forward and say that they

13    were helped by Serbs, and that does not appear to be a problem at all.

14                          [Trial Chamber confers]

15            JUDGE MUMBA:  Mr. Jovanovic, the Trial Chamber denies the motion.

16    There are no specific reasons given with regard to any of those persons,

17    so their normal names will be used.

18            MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

19                          Examined by Mr. Jovanovic:

20       Q.   [Interpretation] Good day.

21       A.   Good day.

22            MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise.  I'm

23    just told that my client has something to tell me.  May I have your

24    permission to speak to him?

25            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes, please.  Go ahead.

Page 5781












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Page 5782

 1            MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 2       Q.   Do you know Zoran Vukovic?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Do you know Zoran Vukovic who is here in this courtroom?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Will you tell us who he is.

 7       A.   He's behind your back, wearing glasses, second from the right-hand

 8    side.

 9            MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think, for the

10    record, the witness has recognised Zoran Vukovic.

11            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes, she has.

12            MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13       Q.   You made a statement to the investigator of the Defence.  Do you

14    remember that?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Do you still abide by that statement?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   I will now ask you a few questions to clear up a few points from

19    that statement.  Tell me, please:  How long have you known the accused

20    Zoran Vukovic?

21       A.   For quite a long time.  Before the war, a bit better than Raso,

22    because he lived and worked in that town.  For a time I think he worked as

23    a driver, then in another period as a waiter.  He was a very popular

24    person among athletes.  He was a sports referee, he spent a lot of time in

25    sports grounds; he was a sociable person.

Page 5783

 1       Q.   Does Zoran Vukovic have a family, and if he does, do you know what

 2    it consists of?

 3       A.   Yes.  He has a wife, a daughter, and a son.  He has a brother, a

 4    mother.  That is as much as I know.

 5       Q.   After the outbreak of the war and hostilities in the area of Foca,

 6    do you know whether Zoran Vukovic assisted some members of non-Serb ethnic

 7    groups?

 8       A.   I have to tell you that Zoran is a person who is happiest when he

 9    can help someone, and that's what made him happy, when he helped someone,

10    and especially then.  I know that I met him on one occasion in town.  He

11    said he had been running around for a couple of days, looking for certain

12    documents for a man of Muslim ethnicity, to help him get out of the KP

13    Dom, and how could he transport him out of the Foca municipality.

14       Q.   I have to interrupt you.  As we have been given permission by the

15    Court to use names, are you talking about Nihad Pasovic?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Does the name Jelena Sokolovic mean anything to you?

18       A.   Yes.  She's a nurse -- a midwife, actually.  She was my

19    colleague.  She's of Croat ethnicity.  And she told me, as there was a

20    war -- you see, people hardly knew anyone.  A war is the worst possible

21    thing that could happen in our part of the world, so people simply did not

22    recognise each other anymore.  Somebody said that she was Croat and they

23    attacked her, and she said:  If it hadn't been for Zoran Vukovic, who

24    knows what would have happened to her.

25            JUDGE MUMBA:  Counsel, we will take our lunch break and we will

Page 5784

 1    continue the proceedings at 1430 hours this afternoon.

 2                     --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.01 p.m.
























Page 5785


 2                     --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.

 3            JUDGE MUMBA:  Good afternoon, Witness.

 4            Yes, Mr. Jovanovic, you are were asking the witness some

 5    questions.

 6            MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 7       Q.   Witness, my last question before the recess to you was regarding a

 8    person named Jelena Sokolovic.

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Let me ask you whether the following names also mean anything to

11    you, and if they do, what do you know about them:  Rasema Klinac, and the

12    Cardar family.

13       A.   This family lived near the health centre.  Zoran helped them to

14    leave the territory of Foca at that time.

15       Q.   How do you know about this?

16       A.   I sort of met him a couple of times, and he complained to me that

17    he had problems with the crossings into Montenegro.

18       Q.   Let me ask you this:  The names that I just mentioned here, were

19    any of them members of the Serbian ethnic group?

20       A.   No.  My apologies, the last person you mentioned, I know that he

21    took to the doctor's.  I met him, saw him when I went to get some supplies

22    to the health centre, and I saw him in the hallway.

23       Q.   Previously when answering my colleague Mr. Kolesar, you said that

24    you often went with a unit, and I'm not going to mention any names here,

25    but did Zoran Vukovic in those situations wear a uniform when they went to

Page 5786

 1    the front lines?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Were any special insignia that you could see on his uniform, or

 4    could you see any insignia, for that matter?

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   Do you know whether he was a member of the military police, that

 7    is, the deputy commander of the military police?

 8       A.   No.

 9       Q.   In your statement, you also mentioned an event which resulted in

10    Zoran Vukovic's being injured?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   I assume that because the statement was taken on 1 June 2000 and

13    it relates to an event from 1992, could you please tell us how you are

14    able to tell the investigator the time when this injury was sustained and

15    its nature.

16       A.   Because of such a long period, I hardly recall any specific dates,

17    sometimes not even a year, but I believe that this was in June.  Maybe it

18    was late June.  Now, please, don't hold this against me, that I don't know

19    the date.

20            Once when he was out in the field, he slid off a slope, and it

21    resulted in an injury, in an injury which was an injury of his testicles.

22    He complained of great pain, and there was very marked redness.  I took

23    the bandage, I put -- I bandaged him and sent him off to the nearest

24    medical institution.

25       Q.   In your statement that you gave to the investigators of Zoran

Page 5787












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Page 5788

 1    Vukovic, you said that you were able to determine the date based on your

 2    own personal log.

 3       A.   This log was kept -- there was this room in the town, the log

 4    where -- with -- where all the files of the soldiers of the members of the

 5    army were kept, and there was a file for him, and I entered all the

 6    injuries and the times and place of the injury.

 7       Q.   In your statement, a date was given.  The date mentioned was 15

 8    May, but now you say that this was in June 1992.  How do you explain that?

 9       A.   Well, you see, the period -- the time when this happened was so

10    long ago that when I was asked to remember the date and the injuries of

11    those two persons, I said that I could remember, that I can confirm it,

12    but I could not be precise.  I don't know if there was a mistake there,

13    but I hope that it will not be held against me now.

14       Q.   Let me ask you this:  When you were asked this question by the

15    investigator and when you were to give an answer to that question, before

16    talking to him, did you review those files to see when this happened, or

17    did you just say based on your memory?

18       A.   No, this was purely on my memory, and even what I am saying now,

19    except for the dates for which you insisted that I should double-check.

20    But please allow me, I'm -- I am for the first time in such an eminent

21    place, and I've never been in a situation like this, so please, I would

22    like to ask that this not be held against me.

23       Q.   Please tell me, after Zoran Vukovic was transported to Foca, do

24    you know what happened next?  Was he examined by physicians?  Was any

25    treatment prescribed?

Page 5789

 1       A.   Yes.  There was a physician on duty in this garrison, this health

 2    centre.  He was examined.  The physician determined that he, that he

 3    should not be hospitalised, but, rather, he gave him a particular therapy.

 4            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Jovanovic, it's very equivocal as to whether this

 5    is something she knows herself, whether she's been told by your client

 6    about it.  The value of this is going -- of this evidence is going to

 7    depend upon whether it's hearsay, or hearsay upon hearsay.  You better

 8    just get it clear.  Is this something she knows herself?  If so, she

 9    better say so.

10       A.   Yes, I know this personally because I was personally there, and

11    the only thing that I am doubtful about is the date.  I later looked for

12    that file in order to confirm the date, only the date.

13            MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14       Q.   Do you personally know that Mr. Cancar conducted this examination?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   In your statement, from what I can see, you also said that on two

17    occasions -- excuse me -- you took medication to Vukovic on two occasions?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Was this in respect of this injury?  Was that medication for those

20    injuries?  And let me refresh your memory.  I'll remind you of what you

21    stated:

22            "Due to this injury and on the recommendation of the urologist in

23    the general hospital in Foca, Dr. Nebojsa Cancar, the physician,

24    prescribed rest for 15 days and therapy, and I know that I took medication

25    to him on two occasions and I visited him."

Page 5790

 1            Now, this may be equivocal.  Does your visiting him and your

 2    taking medication to him refer to those injuries?

 3       A.   Yes.  It had to do with that case.

 4       Q.   After that, do you know, when Zoran Vukovic went back to his unit

 5    and when he rejoined his unit, was he on a special regime or did he have a

 6    special status in the unit because of this?  Was he given lighter

 7    assignments because of this, and what do you know about that?

 8       A.   He no longer went out in the field.  I don't know how much damage

 9    he had as a lasting damage.  And what he did later was he drove an

10    ambulance.

11       Q.   After the end of war, you continued to live in Foca?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   During that period, from the end of the war until his arrest, did

14    you see Zoran Vukovic?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   In your opinion, did Zoran Vukovic in any way try to hide or

17    somehow try to cover his tracks because of the indictment that was

18    published against him?

19       A.   No.  He was -- he lived openly.  I could see him in cafes and

20    elsewhere, at least as I -- from my experience.

21            MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this concludes my

22    part of the questioning, and I would just like to consult with my

23    colleagues to see if anybody else has anything.

24            JUDGE MUMBA:  Go ahead.

25                          [Defence counsel confer]

Page 5791

 1            MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is all I have

 2    for this witness.  Thank you.

 3            JUDGE MUMBA:  Cross-examination?

 4            MS. KUO:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5                          Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo:

 6       Q.   Good afternoon, Witness.

 7       A.   Good afternoon.

 8       Q.   Witness, are you still practising as a nurse?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   And you still work with the (redacted) hospital; is that right?

11       A.   Yes [as interpreted].

12       Q.   And the files that you refer to, are they contained in the Foca

13    hospital?

14       A.   I don't know what files you're referring to, because --

15            MS. LOPICIC:  Yes.  On page 73, row 2, the witness, as I heard,

16    she said "no" on the answer, and in the transcript is "yes."

17            JUDGE MUMBA:  The question as to whether she's still working

18    with --

19            MS. LOPICIC:  With -- Yes.

20            JUDGE MUMBA:  (redacted) hospital.  Yes.  We can clear that with

21    the witness.

22            MS. KUO:

23       Q.   Witness, do you still work with (redacted) hospital?

24       A. (redacted).

25       Q.   My question pertains to the present day.  Are you currently

Page 5792

 1    working as a nurse with the (redacted) hospital?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   The files that you refer to that you checked before coming to

 4    testify today, where are they contained?

 5       A.   What files?  What files are you referring to?  You mean for those

 6    findings?  You mean the files which I had where that unit was stationed?

 7    You mean when -- those files reflecting the injury?

 8       Q.   Witness, you were asked some questions by Mr. Jovanovic about an

 9    inconsistency in your statement that you gave in June of this year

10    regarding a date.

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   And you stated that, when you gave the statement, you did not

13    check a file.

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   And that today, having -- before you testified, you did check a

16    file; right?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   That's the file I'm asking you about.  Where is it?

19       A.   Yes.  I was told to bring this file.  It's a log book and it's in

20    my hotel.  I forgot to bring it now, but I asked him then not to show it

21    in order to protect privacy of other persons whose names were also there.

22    But this log book is in my hotel room and there is no dispute about this.

23       Q.   Witness, you're claiming that in this log book there is an entry

24    that states that Zoran Vukovic had this injury on the 15th of June, 1992;

25    is that right?

Page 5793












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Page 5794

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Is this a log book that you personally maintained or that belongs

 3    to a hospital or military unit?

 4       A.   To the military unit.  It belongs to the military unit.

 5       Q.   This is the military unit that you refer to, which is the name on

 6    Exhibit D163; correct?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   You personally had access to this log book so that you could bring

 9    it with you to The Hague; is that what you're saying?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   And if we were to look at this log book, we would see there,

12    without any question, that it was 15th of June, 1992, Zoran Vukovic had a

13    scrotum injury and was treated; correct?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   And this log book would also show that he was told to have -- to

16    rest for ten days; is that right?

17       A.   No.  This is -- there was a person in charge of entering this

18    information, and among other entries, at the end of the entry, there is a

19    date and place where the injury was sustained.  And for the rest there are

20    some numbers.  They are just registration numbers and some data.  And then

21    on the edge, that was entered.  And that's all.

22            MS. KUO:  Your Honour, I don't know quite what the procedure would

23    be for having this witness bring this log.  It seems to be a very

24    important piece of evidence and readily available.

25            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  What can happen is you can deal with other

Page 5795

 1    questions, finish, you can adjourn for her tomorrow to bring the log book.

 2            MS. KUO:  Very well, Your Honour.

 3       Q.   Now, Witness, you stated that you worked with unit -- the unit

 4    that's named in D163 in the field; is that right?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Were you the only nurse working with that particular unit?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   And you worked very closely with all the members of that unit;

 9    right?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   In fact, you were in a position to do personal favours for them,

12    such as give them supplies for their girlfriends; correct?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   When you discuss -- when you mention "field," could you tell us

15    where that is?  What place are you referring to?

16       A.   Which field?  In reference to what question is this?  Who are you

17    asking me about?  For the first -- are you asking me about the first one

18    or the second one?

19       Q.   In answer to some questions posed by Defence counsel, you

20    mentioned that there were times when you were out in the field, and my

21    question is:  Where is the field?

22       A.   Yes.  Where is the field?  This unit occasionally went where

23    assistance was needed, to reinforce others wherever on the front line was

24    needed, so they went wherever they were asked to go.

25       Q.   So the unit itself did not stay in one particular place; it went

Page 5796

 1    to many different places?

 2       A.   Yes.  They were always sent as a reinforcement for the defence.

 3       Q.   You did not go with them to all these different places; right?

 4       A.   No.  Only when it was needed, which was occasionally.

 5       Q.   When you talked about people going to your tent, where was your

 6    tent?

 7       A.   Behind their line.  Let's say if the line is there, the medical

 8    corps was behind, within that area.

 9       Q.   You were stationed, more or less, in this tent at a place called

10    Okoliste; is that right?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   And that's near Cerova Ravan; correct?

13       A.   What Ravan?

14       Q.   Cerova Ravan.  Could you describe where this place is, then,

15    Okoliste?

16       A.   Okoliste.  That is on the road in direction of Pljevlja, that is,

17    Montenegro.  And Cerova Ravan is quite in the opposite direction.

18       Q.   How far was this place from Foca?

19       A.   It's about seven, eight kilometres.  I'm really not sure.  I can't

20    tell you.

21       Q.   When you were working there, did you spend evenings there?  Did

22    you sleep there, or did you go home to Foca?

23       A.   No, that was not on a regular work.  That was just as needed.  If

24    there were any injuries, then I would go there, you see, but it wasn't as

25    if I worked at that place.  I don't know if you understand me.

Page 5797

 1       Q.   Were you paid?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   You were volunteering, is that right, to help the army?

 4       A.   We were mobilised.

 5       Q.   You were mobilised?

 6       A.   That was our job.

 7       Q.   You personally were mobilised as well; is that what you're saying?

 8       A.   Yes, yes.

 9       Q.   Were women mobilised as well as men?

10       A.   Because I was a health worker, and there was shortage of those

11    professions, I was mobilised.

12       Q.   Now, you described how you remained with the military unit because

13    you actually weren't needed at (redacted) hospital any more, right?

14       A.   Or when the war broke out, I was down there because the road to

15    the hospital was not safe and the colleagues were not coming.  And the

16    medical professionals who were men who were all drafted to fight, so

17    somebody had to step in and do this.

18       Q.   I need some clarification.  You worked at the hospital before the

19    war, right?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   When the war broke out, you stayed at the hospital very briefly

22    but then were needed to help the army; is that right?

23       A.   For a period I worked both in the hospital and in this clinic.

24    That was not my regular job.  This is a place where there was some medical

25    supplies, and those medical supplies had to be sent to the front line, or

Page 5798

 1    if there were any assistance needed.  But it was -- there were bandages,

 2    there were syringes.  Only something that would really be first aid was

 3    kept there.

 4       Q.   After some time, you no longer worked at the hospital, right?

 5       A.   Yes, because physically, and also due to the family concerns.  I

 6    am a mother; I was a mother of two small children at the time.  I could

 7    not do both.

 8       Q.   Where did the supplies for the army come from, the medical

 9    supplies, do you know?  The bandages, the medicine.

10       A.   That -- there was a chief of medical affairs, and he was in charge

11    of all the supplies.  I had nothing to do with that.  I don't know where

12    anything came from.

13       Q.   Were there many medical personnel able to help the soldiers in the

14    field?

15       A.   I didn't quite understand your question.

16       Q.   Were there many medical personnel, such as yourself and other

17    nurses, available to help soldiers?

18            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

19            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes, Mr. Kolesar.

20            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] The Defence of the accused Kovac

21    doesn't see the relevance of this at all, whether there were many or few

22    medical personnel and all these general questions about medical personnel.

23            JUDGE MUMBA:  Mr. Kolesar, there is no substance in your

24    objection.  Counsel should be given room to find out whether the witness

25    was alone or there were others during that period, during the war period.

Page 5799












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Page 5800

 1            MS. KUO:

 2       Q.   Would you please answer the question.

 3       A.   I think I told you.  Some were in the field.  Mostly the men in

 4    the medical professionals were drafted as fighters, as soldiers.  I wasn't

 5    stationed in the field on the front line.  I was in this clinic, makeshift

 6    clinic, and went there occasionally.  At the very beginning, there were a

 7    couple of other nurses who were there with me in this clinic, and later on

 8    they went back to work in the hospital.  And the other...

 9       Q.   You mentioned some other nurses.  Were you familiar with nurses

10    who worked with other military units?

11       A.   They were not units.  It was the clinic belonging to the garrison,

12    and in that clinic we went to work.  Since the nurses who worked with me

13    were older women, when assistance was needed in the field, I went.  I hope

14    you understand me now.

15       Q.   Are you familiar with a unit that was called the Zaga --

16    Independent Zaga Detachment?

17       A.   No.

18       Q.   Did you ever have any dealings with medical personnel from the 5th

19    Battalion?  You were in the 2nd Battalion, right?

20       A.   I was in the clinic of the garrison.  It was the main clinic

21    there.  It was a clinic that catered to the whole brigade.

22       Q.   So that would include the 2nd and the 5th Battalions; is that

23    right?

24       A.   Yes, yes.

25       Q.   That was a fairly small group of nurses that worked in the

Page 5801

 1    garrison, correct?

 2       A.   Yes, yes.

 3       Q.   You would know all of them, wouldn't you?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Did you know a nurse named Jadranka Zdralo or Jadranka Dilberovic?

 6       A.   No.

 7       Q.   Never heard of her?

 8       A.   No.  I hear the name for the first time.

 9       Q.   No such nurse working with the military unit?

10       A.   No.  I don't know whether such a nurse by that name exists at all,

11    not just in the clinic, but generally.  Foca is a small town.  I know all

12    my colleagues there.

13       Q.   So there was no nurse by the name of Jadranka, was there?

14       A.   No.

15       Q.   Now, getting back to the unit that you worked with, you identified

16    Radovan Kovac as being a member of that unit.  I'm going to ask you about

17    some other people.

18            MS. KUO:  With the assistance of the usher, can the witness be

19    shown Exhibit 242, please.

20       Q.   I'm going to ask you to pay special attention to the name that

21    precedes DP1.  Do you see that name?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   That person was a member of the unit, wasn't he?

24       A.   He was and he wasn't.  He was a man who wandered from one brigade

25    to another, something like that.  He wasn't permanently located there.  I

Page 5802

 1    don't think anyone could do anything with him or give him any orders or

 2    put him in one particular place.

 3       Q.   And during his wanderings about the military, he spent some time

 4    in the unit that you worked with, right?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Zoran Vukovic, whom you've identified in the courtroom, was also a

 7    member of this unit, right?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Dragan Zelenovic was also a member, right?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Jagos Kostic was also a member of this unit, right?

12       A.   Yes and no.  He was also like that; he would come and go.  He

13    wasn't there permanently.

14       Q.   But at some point he was a member of this unit and worked with

15    Radomir Kovac, right?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Slavo Ivanovic was also a member of this unit, right?

18       A.   I didn't hear the name.

19       Q.   Slavo Ivanovic.

20       A.   No, I don't know that.

21       Q.   Do you know the name?

22       A.   Yes.  The name?

23       Q.   Are you familiar with a person by the name Slavo Ivanovic?

24       A.   No, I don't know.  There were Ivanovics, but this particular name

25    is one I hear for the first time.

Page 5803

 1       Q.   There was an Ivanovic who was a member of this unit, was there?

 2       A.   I think there were a couple because it is a very big family in

 3    town, so I don't know that in particular.  It wasn't a unit that you see.

 4    People would say that they were there, and then after some time and after

 5    the war, they would say that they belonged to that unit, yet I never saw

 6    them, believe me, yet they would say that they were there.  Whether

 7    perhaps in the field they were together, you know, it was -- nothing was

 8    very strict.  We didn't know who was with whom, so I really don't know

 9    those details.

10       Q.   So there could have been soldiers who were a member of the unit

11    that you didn't know about; is that what you're saying, in the field that

12    you didn't know?

13       A.   Yes, because I didn't keep any records of who was a member of the

14    unit and who was not.

15       Q.   Witness, looking again at Exhibit 242, the name that precedes DP2,

16    you're familiar with that person, aren't you?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   In fact, he was the leader of that unit, right?

19       A.   No.  The leader was the man after whom this unit was named.  He

20    was the leader.

21       Q.   And that man was killed very early on in the conflict, right?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   After he died, DP2 became the leader, isn't that right?

24       A.   You know what the situation was at the time.  It wasn't really

25    compulsory for people to listen to somebody else.  I was there because one

Page 5804

 1    had to be somewhere.  You couldn't not be somewhere, anywhere.  So nobody

 2    could force somebody to be something.

 3       Q.   Witness, my question was whether this individual was a leader of

 4    this unit.  The answer is either "yes" or "no."

 5       A.   I'm telling you again:  It wasn't strictly fixed.  There wasn't a

 6    particular leader after the death of this main person.  People were doing

 7    more or less what they wanted.  Nobody could obey others, because this

 8    wasn't an employment that somebody would tell you you have to come to the

 9    unit at such-and-such a time, nor were there people who followed orders.

10    This was at the very beginning.  This man, he was the leader.  After him,

11    it was rather chaotic.

12       Q.   Witness, you would agree that there was a war going on in Foca at

13    this time; right?  This was war.

14       A.   Yes.  Yes.

15       Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... that you've been talking

16    about was a military unit; right?

17       A.   No.  Yes, it was a military unit.  I'm sorry.  I was -- I was -- I

18    was thinking of something else.

19       Q.   And the unit worked with the garrison; right?

20       A.   Yes.  It came under the command of the garrison, and all

21    assignments and leadership duties were assigned by the garrison, from that

22    leading brigade, the base.

23       Q.   And after the name [sic] whom this unit was originally named after

24    died -- he was the leader of this unit, right; that's why it was named

25    after him?

Page 5805












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Page 5806

 1       A.   The one who died, yes.

 2       Q.   And so a leader was necessary to the unit; right?

 3       A.   Yes.  And this was this small nucleus.  But afterwards, no one --

 4       Q.   After the leader died, you're saying, no one was in charge of this

 5    unit of men whose names you have listed, and more whom you haven't listed,

 6    that this unit had no leader whatsoever; is that what you're saying?

 7       A.   The main leader.  And all assignments came to a base which was

 8    situated in the hotel.  A woman was working there who kept the log book,

 9    and the assignments came from there.  All orders were received there

10    regarding what was going on, and then that woman and those who didn't go

11    to the field for disabilities or sick leave had to report there, because

12    the soldiers of that unit -- so it didn't matter who would receive the

13    orders from the superior command.  That's how it was.

14       Q.   Witness, isn't it true that another name for this unit you've been

15    talking about is the Guards, named with the name DP2?  Isn't that right?

16    That's how they were known after the first leader died.

17       A.   No.

18       Q.   DP2's Guards:  That was the other name for this same unit; isn't

19    that right?

20       A.   No.

21       Q.   You described in your testimony a soldier named Dragan Djurovic.

22    He was a member of this unit also, wasn't he?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   In fact, he was the deputy leader of that unit, right, second in

25    charge?

Page 5807

 1       A.   No.  No.

 2       Q.   Witness, the Cafe Leonardo was the gathering point for this unit;

 3    isn't that right?

 4       A.   It was the only establishment that was working.  It was in the

 5    very centre of town and there was another coffee bar.  So it wasn't really

 6    the gathering place; it was just the place where people went to.

 7       Q.   You said it was the only one.  There were no other cafes

 8    functioning at this time in Foca?

 9       A.   Even this one was not officially open, but occasionally, as

10    nothing else existed for young people to go to, then Leonardo would open

11    and some other private cafe owners would open their bars on their own

12    initiative.  Even that wasn't really permitted.

13       Q.   Was the Cafe Linea also open during this time, or functioning?

14       A.   I didn't quite understand.

15       Q.   Was there a cafe called the Cafe Linea in Foca?

16       A.   Yes, it does exist.  It is privately owned and probably it would

17    open when the young men who ran that coffee bar came.  It's a privately

18    owned bar.

19       Q.   So the Cafe Leonardo was not the only cafe open during this time;

20    right?

21       A.   No.

22       Q.   But it was the place where members of this unit gathered or

23    associated when they weren't in the field; right?  It was the Cafe

24    Leonardo where you knew you could find the soldiers of this unit?

25       A.   Please excuse me about that question.

Page 5808

 1       Q.   I'm sorry.  Was the answer yes?

 2       A.   Could you please repeat the question?  Was Leonardo the only cafe

 3    bar that was open; is that what you're asking me?

 4       Q.   No.  The last question was:  The Cafe Leonardo was where you knew

 5    you could find soldiers of this unit when they were not in the field;

 6    right?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   And when members of this unit visited the cafe, they were both in

 9    uniform sometimes and also sometimes out of uniform, in civilian clothes;

10    right?

11       A.   Well, you see, I didn't go much to Leonardo or any other coffee

12    bar.  I may have seen them when I went by, or if I needed somebody I would

13    drop in, because I had my family obligations and I spent all my free

14    time -- most of my free time at home.

15       Q.   Witness, you gave a statement on 22nd of May this year to a

16    Defence investigator; is that right?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Her name is listed on Exhibit 242 under the initials DK; right?

19       A.   I don't understand.

20       Q.   There's a piece of paper in front of you with some names and

21    numbers.

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Do you see the initials DK?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   In front of the initials DK is a name, and that's the name of the

Page 5809

 1    Defence investigator; right?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   When you gave your --

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   When you gave your statement on 22nd of May of this year to DK,

 6    didn't you say, "I was in good relationship with all members of that unit,

 7    and when we were not in the field, we associated in the Cafe Leonardo in

 8    Srbinje."  Did you say that?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   So you did associate with them in that cafe; right?

11       A.   I can tell you how much we associated:  If I came by and dropped

12    in for a couple of minutes.  That was all.  That was the association we

13    had.  Because, as I said, this would usually be in the evening, when

14    everything I had to do at home I had done.  I would drop in if I really

15    needed somebody or something.  I would visit.  But this was just in the

16    evenings, because the office that was there only worked until 5.00.

17       Q.   I'm sorry.  What office?

18       A.   Opposite from Leonardo would be a place where we left messages.

19    There was this woman who would receive messages from the main command.

20       Q.   Now, you said you would go to the Cafe Leonardo if you needed

21    someone.  What would you need someone from the Cafe Leonardo for?

22       A.   This cafe is in the very centre of town, and if I had some family

23    obligations, if I had to go somewhere and to stay there for some time, so

24    I would tell them where I was, should they need my assistance, so they

25    would know where I was.

Page 5810

 1       Q.   So you were assisting even when you were not in the field, right,

 2    in your capacity as a nurse?

 3       A.   Yes.  Yes.

 4       Q.   Are you able to say exactly how many times you were in the Cafe

 5    Leonardo?

 6       A.   No.

 7       Q.   Countless times; right?

 8       A.   I really don't know how many and when and how much it was open and

 9    when I had to go there.  This just happened sometimes when I would come

10    by.  And as I lived nearby, and if the light was on, I would drop in.  Not

11    innumerable times.

12       Q.   How many times did you see Radomir Kovac at the Cafe Leonardo?

13    Are you able to say that?

14       A.   When they were there and when Leonardo was open -- and it wasn't

15    always open -- I would see him.  I saw him a couple of times.  I can't

16    tell you more precisely than that.  It was such a long time ago.  It's

17    such a terrible and difficult period in our lives that even the statement

18    I made then, I didn't read it again.  Because I know what I know, and if

19    you really take it against me that I forget certain details, I hope not.

20  (redacted-reference given to DK) asked me whether I remembered and whether I

21 could give that statement, and I said immediately that I was not a witness.  

22 I can talk about what I know.  How you will interpret that,that is up to you.

23       Q.   If I understand you correctly, Witness, you're saying that this

24    happened so long ago, you don't remember exact dates; right?

25       A.   I remember roughly, but all those dates and events, believe me,

Page 5811












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Page 5812

 1    when they asked me whether I remembered the wounding, whether I could

 2    testify, whether I could recount to this lofty Tribunal what I know, I

 3    said yes.

 4       Q.   When you were asked by DK about the particular event in the Cafe

 5    Leonardo about which you have testified in great detail today, you did not

 6    say, "I don't remember the date," did you?

 7       A.   No, no.  I didn't say I didn't remember the date.

 8       Q.   In fact, your statement of May of this very year, you said that it

 9    was around the 15th of November, 1992.  You gave a very particular date.

10    Do you remember that?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   You don't know what you were doing about the 14th of November,

13    1992, do you?

14       A.   I didn't understand you.

15       Q.   If I were to ask you what were you doing on the 14th of November,

16    1992, you wouldn't be able to answer that, would you?  You can't

17    remember.

18       A.   I was probably reminded of that whole period, because I'm telling

19    you now:  So many things happened.  When she asked me whether I could

20    remember and recall things, then I had to dig around in my memory to

21    remember these things and those dates.

22       Q.   If I were to ask you what you were doing on the 16th of November,

23    1992, you can't remember that, can you?

24       A.   If you would let me think about it, because November is privately

25    for me an important month.  Maybe I could remember, because in that month

Page 5813

 1    there are some important dates in my family.

 2       Q.   But when you were asked by the Defence investigator to give a date

 3    when you saw certain people in the Cafe Leonardo, you gave the date 15th

 4    November.  That date is not important to you, is it?  It's not, is it?

 5       A.   Yes, but a date prior to that is important to me, the date one or

 6    two days prior to that.

 7       Q.   Witness, you gave in your statement to the Defence investigator

 8    very specific dates and very specific times for when you saw Radomir Kovac

 9    in the Cafe Leonardo with this girl, 87.

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   You stated in your statement in May of this year that it was

12    precisely at about 2100 hours, that's 9.00 in the evening, when you

13    entered the cafe.  That's the time you gave, right, 9.00 in the evening?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   You also gave a time, said 15 minutes later, Kovac came to talk to

16    you, 15 minutes.  You remember saying that?

17       A.   Yes, but --

18       Q.   Then later you said ten minutes later, you spent ten minutes with

19    him drinking coffee, and the girls.  Do you remember giving that precise

20    time?

21       A.   Never for a moment -- if I had known that you would insist on this

22    question of five, ten, or 15 minutes, I wouldn't have said that.  I was

23    talking very approximately.  I wouldn't have said those things because I

24    wasn't watching the clock to be able to check after ten or 15 minutes I

25    left -- I went -- sorry.  I went to say hello, to sit down with them.  If

Page 5814

 1    I had known that those ten or 15 minutes would be so important, I really

 2    don't know, I wouldn't have mentioned a single date or any precise hour.

 3       Q.   Isn't it true that this particular date and these particular times

 4    made no impression on your memory, and yet you said in your statement, you

 5    gave very precise times.  Today in court you can't remember the exact date

 6    or the exact time, can you?

 7       A.   At the time, because I told you, November is - for me is an

 8    important month.  And when that person gave me time to think about it and

 9    to write it down, I gave the matter a little more thought.  And I came

10    here -- I tell you, this is the first time for me to be to court.  If you

11    were to ask me what I did five minutes ago, it would be hard for me to

12    concentrate now.  Because I saw Raso then, and it is the first time I saw

13    those persons, and I remember now the way he walked in, in a white coat

14    with these young girls.

15            As for me and my personality, you could have inquired about me.

16    You could have asked the person under 191 to tell you about me as a

17    person.  That person could tell you everything.

18       Q.   If we were to ask the person listed under 191, she would tell us

19    the truth, right?

20       A.   Yes.  I think as far as our acquaintance is concerned, but I'm

21    saying to you now, I don't know.  If thousands of circumstances were to

22    change and to influence her to say something against -- I don't know.  And

23    this person also, 87.  I really don't know how or why, but as I said, if

24    they want to say the truth, because I came here to tell the truth, I came

25    here to talk about what I know, and how people are going to interpret

Page 5815

 1    that...

 2       Q.   You have told us that if 191 were to be asked questions about what

 3    happened that day in the cafe, she would confirm what you said, right?

 4    You said that in your statement, that she would confirm what you said?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   You have no reason to believe that 191 would lie, right?

 7       A.   I told you now, I don't know how or why -- how anyone could say

 8    something different, especially that person, not only about that time at

 9    Leonardo, but about me personally, about my personality, but the

10    authenticity of what --

11       Q.   Thank you, Witness.

12            Just because I didn't get an answer to the question, today, in

13    September of 2000, you don't remember the exact date that this event

14    happened, do you?

15       A.   I do remember, yes.

16       Q.   What date was it?

17       A.   It was my daughter's birthday, the 14th.  I'm telling you.

18       Q.   14th of November?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   That's all I need to know.

21            And are you saying that you remember that precisely on the 14th of

22    November at 9.00 in the evening, you walked into the Cafe Leonardo; is

23    that right?  Yes?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   And precisely 15 minutes later, Radomir Kovac came to talk to you;

Page 5816

 1    is that right?

 2       A.   Well, I told you just now, these ten or 15 minutes -- he did not

 3    walk up to talk to me.  He walked into Leonardo's, and he said hello to

 4    us, and he went to another table to sit there.

 5       Q.   That was precisely 15 minutes later; is that what you're saying?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   And after he invited you over to his table, it was again exactly

 8    ten minutes that you sat there and drank coffee with him, right?  Yes?  I

 9    think the answer was "yes."  You need to speak more loudly.

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   And exactly the next day, which would have been the 15th of

12    November, 1992, you saw Radomir Kovac again in Cafe Leonardo, right?

13       A.   The next day, yes.

14       Q.   And that was at precisely 10.00 in the morning; is that what

15    you're saying?

16       A.   Well, I don't know now whether that time had to be specified very

17    exactly, or was it said in this statement that at 10.00 or at five minutes

18    to ten, or ten minutes to ten I left the house; but let's say it was

19    exactly at 10.00.

20       Q.   You remember today, not at time of the statement, but you remember

21    today that it was exactly 10.00, give or take five minutes?  Is that what

22    you're saying?

23       A.   Now, now.  I'm telling you that now.

24       Q.   That is my question.  Is that what you remember?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 5817












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Page 5818

 1       Q.   And when you were in the Cafe Leonardo on the 14th of November,

 2    1992, you saw Dragan Djurovic and 191, right?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   And you remember that there were two other men at that table; is

 5    that right?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   You saw Radomir Kovac and 87, and another man named (redacted -

 8   reference given to DO), two other girls, and two other guys; is that right?

 9       A.   Yes, yes.

10            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

11            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes, Mr. Kolesar?

12            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] My learned colleague has mentioned a

13    name and surname unwittingly that is not supposed to be mentioned.

14            MS. KUO:  Your Honour, there is no protective measure regarding

15    this particular person.

16            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] But there is, Your Honour.

17            JUDGE MUMBA:  What is the pseudonym?  What is the pseudonym?

18            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] The pseudonym is DO.

19            MS. KUO:  Your Honour, I apologise.  I did not realise this was

20    the name of the person because we were given a different name, and my

21    colleagues point out that a statement that was given to us this morning

22    has the nickname, so I do apologise.  I was not aware that in fact this

23    was the same person.  The name I mentioned was in the statement of this

24    particular witness, and the protective measure gives quite a different

25    name.

Page 5819

 1            JUDGE MUMBA:  Can we be clear on whether that is the same name as

 2    shown in the protective witnesses?  Mr. Kolesar, is it the same person?

 3    DO has two names?

 4            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] DO has a name and a surname and a

 5    nickname.  The nickname is --

 6            JUDGE MUMBA:  Is the one that was mentioned?

 7            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes.

 8                          [The Trial Chamber confers]

 9            JUDGE MUMBA:  Maybe to clear this problem, can you put the names

10    on a piece of paper, Mr. Kolesar, and the full name, the nickname, and DO,

11    if that is correct, so that we know from the transcript which name is

12    supposed to be DO.

13            Mr. Kolesar, I see you writing.  Could you please do it quickly.

14            Can the usher please assist, get the paper from counsel.

15            Unfortunately, Mr. Kolesar, we can't read this.  We need it in the

16    other alphabet.

17                          [Trial Chamber confers with the registrar]

18            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes, it's clear now, so we'll have the name

19    redacted.

20            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] However, I would like to tell the

21    Trial Chamber the following:  In the statement that we presented to the

22    OTP, it does say name, surname, nickname, very precisely.  So the

23    Prosecutor could have identified that.

24            MS. KUO: Your Honour, just to respond to that.  We just received

25    this statement this morning while we were in court, so I simply did not

Page 5820

 1    have a chance to look at it, let alone to coordinate the names that were

 2    completely different.

 3            JUDGE MUMBA:  All right.  The names will be redacted from the

 4    transcript.

 5            JUDGE HUNT:  It might be a good idea, Mr. Kolesar, if you did give

 6    the Prosecution the statements just a little earlier.  They have

 7    complained previously about this, and this is a very easy consequence for

 8    anybody to fall into if you do not give them the statements more in

 9    advance than you have been giving them.

10            JUDGE MUMBA:  Mr. Kolesar, last week before we adjourned, you had

11    promised to give them Thursday last week, so I notice that you didn't.

12            Anyway, we'll stick to DO, the other names mentioned will be

13    redacted.

14            Yes, Mr. Kolesar?

15            MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, on Thursday, towards

16    the end of working hours, I did give my learned colleagues from the Office

17    of the Prosecutor four witness statements.  However, I said that I could

18    not give this fifth witness statement to them because we were not sure yet

19    whether that witness would come or not.  I asked whether it would be a

20    problem if we gave that witness statement to them only on Monday, and the

21    answer I received was that it would not be a problem, because that witness

22    would not be heard today but only tomorrow, and that is the truth.

23            JUDGE MUMBA:  All right, then.  Please go ahead, counsel.

24            MS. KUO:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25       Q.   Witness, you are telling us today in Court, eight years later,

Page 5821

 1    that you remember just who the people were sitting at which table in the

 2    Cafe Leonardo; correct?  You remember that very precisely; right?

 3            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters cannot hear the witness.

 4            MS. KUO:  The witness needs to --

 5            JUDGE MUMBA:  The response was not understood.  Please speak into

 6    your microphone.

 7       A.   Yes.

 8            MS. KUO:

 9       Q.   Now, today in Court you said you could not give a description of

10    the two girls that were with Radomir Kovac except that one was very

11    beautiful; right?

12       A.   Yes.  Both were good-looking.  One was even better looking,

13    beautiful; 191, that is.

14       Q.   And just focusing on the two girls sitting with Radomir Kovac, you

15    are not able in Court today to give us any more description of them, what

16    their hair looked like, how tall they were?

17       A.   They were not short.  They had light blond hair.  I think that the

18    one who was fairer was 191.  Well, I'm not saying anything special.

19       Q.   I'm not asking you about 191; I'm asking you about 87 and the

20    other girl that was with Radomir Kovac.  That was not 191; right?

21       A.   I do apologise, really.  I'm a bit upset and I got a bit

22    confused.  These two lists are in front of me.  Yes, I'm talking about 87,

23    person 87.

24       Q.   You are not able to tell us more about their description, are you?

25       A.   I was with them then.  I stopped by to say hello, I had a drink

Page 5822

 1    with them, and I left.  Once when Raso was wounded, I went to take

 2    medicine to him.  Person 87 prepared some coffee, brought it into the

 3    living-room, spent some time with us, and then walked out.  As I said,

 4    nothing special.

 5       Q.   Could you please tell us -- tell the Court what 87 looked like;

 6    what her hair looked like, how tall she was, her age approximately.

 7       A.   She was young.  She was beautiful.  She had brown hair, light

 8    brown hair.  She was medium height.

 9       Q.   In your statement to the investigator, didn't you say her hair was

10    blond?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   And today you remember it to be light brown; is that right?

13       A.   Well, these shades of the brown colour, I mean.

14       Q.   Very well.  Could you please give us a description of the other

15    girl, the one with 87.

16       A.   She also had sort of brown hair.  She was good-looking.

17       Q.   In comparison to girl 87, was she taller or shorter?

18       A.   Now, after all this time, to remember that -- I think that she was

19    a bit shorter than the other one.

20       Q.   Was she thinner or heavier?

21       A.   I don't know.  She was wearing something, but I didn't really pay

22    attention to it at the time.  I mean, how people looked in that period, I

23    mean, I would have to pay close attention to what their figure was like,

24    and I was really looking into their faces.

25       Q.   So you weren't paying attention when you saw that girl; is that

Page 5823











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Page 5824

 1    what you're saying?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   Or 87, for that matter.

 4       A.   I didn't understand really.

 5       Q.   Let me put it to you this way:  When you gave your statement in

 6    May of this year, which was --

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   -- less than four months ago, you stated: "One of them," meaning

 9    the girls, "was sitting next to Raso and was extremely beautiful, with a

10    short haircut ..."

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   "... blond, and introduced herself by name.  And the other ..."

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   "... was shorter and thinner than the first one ..."

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   "... with shorter, blond haircut."  You said this just four months

17    ago.  You remember that, don't you?

18       A.   Yes.  Yes.  Oh, I remember that just in terms of entering the

19    Leonardo Cafe, I mean their build.

20       Q.   But you weren't paying attention to those small details, you've

21    just testified; isn't that right?

22       A.   I don't understand what you're saying.

23       Q.   You've testified in Court today that you were not paying attention

24    to those small details.  You're not changing your mind now, are you?

25       A.   Which details?  This is my first impression when I saw them, at

Page 5825

 1    that moment, that that's what they looked like, that one was taller, this

 2    one, 87, and she had brown hair, and the other one was perhaps a bit

 3    smaller than her.  That's the statement I made, and I abide by that

 4    statement.

 5       Q.   Witness, when you gave your statement to DK in May of this year,

 6    you tried to answer her questions very carefully; right?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   If you didn't understand a question, you might ask her -- you were

 9    given the opportunity to ask for a clarification; right?

10       A.   I talked about what I knew, and she asked me specifically whether

11    I could remember some of these dates.  I just talked about what I knew,

12    except for that date when I had to be reminded in terms of the log book.

13       Q.   You tried to be very accurate and truthful in your statement; is

14    that right?

15       A.   It's not that I tried only.  I think that my entire statement is

16    correct.

17       Q.   When you finished giving the statement, you were given an

18    opportunity to read it, and after you read it, you signed it as being

19    true; right?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   And let me just ask you about a statement you made earlier in

22    Court.  You said that you -- regarding this other girl, the one with

23    87 -- not 191, but the other girl whose name you were not able to give

24    us --

25       A.   Yes.

Page 5826

 1       Q.   You said you saw her again --

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   -- in Kovac's apartment; right?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   And this was the time you came by to give him medicine because of

 6    his wound; right?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   And you remember that incident very well, well enough to tell the

 9    Court about it today; right?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   That was an incident that you remembered also in May, when you

12    talked to the Defence investigator; right?  You mentioned that in your

13    statement.

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   In your statement of May, I'm going to quote from you, and you can

16    tell me if this is what you said:  "When you ask me for another girl, I

17    did not see her later and I cannot say anything about her."  Do you

18    remember making that statement?

19       A.   Yes.  Yes.

20       Q.   So at the time you made the statement, you were specifically asked

21    about this other girl, and you specifically said you did not see her

22    later; isn't that right?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Yet today in Court you say you did see her later; right?

25       A.   I saw person 87.

Page 5827

 1       Q.   I'm asking you about the other girl.  Today in Court, when you

 2    were asked, "Did you ever see that other girl again?" you mentioned that

 3    you went to Radomir Kovac's flat to give him medicine and that you saw 87,

 4    and in addition to 87, you saw this other girl; right?

 5       A.   No.  That other girl --

 6       Q.   Yes?

 7       A.   I don't even know what I said now.  When did I say that I did not

 8    see this other girl?

 9       Q.   Let me ask it to you this way, Witness:  When you went to Radomir

10    Kovac's apartment and you saw Witness 87 there, either of the two times

11    that you've told the Court today, did you see another girl there?

12       A.   I went to the apartment twice to take those medicines.  Once I did

13    see her, but she did not sit with us.  And this other time, 87 did sit

14    with us.  This other person did not.

15       Q.   I just want to be very clear about the question.  Was there

16    another girl present, whether she sat with you or not?  Was she present in

17    the flat either of those two times; yes or no?  It's very simple, isn't

18    it?  Did you see her?

19       A.   The other girl, you mean?

20       Q.   Yes.  Not 87; the other girl.

21       A.   The first time, I did; the second time, I didn't.

22       Q.   So the first time when you went to Kovac's apartment, you did see

23    this other girl?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   When you went to Kovac's apartment, it was after the incident that

Page 5828

 1    you described in the Cafe Leonardo; right?

 2       A.   No -- yes.  Yes.  After the incident at Leonardo.

 3       Q.   So the statement you gave in May of 2000 when you said you did not

 4    see this other girl later is incorrect; right?

 5       A.   This other girl did not sit there.

 6       Q.   My question was --

 7       A.   I'm telling you --

 8       Q.   Witness, I'm not asking about where she sat, I'm not asking if she

 9    drank coffee with you; I'm asking about your statement.  Your statement

10    when you said you did not see this girl after the Cafe Leonardo is

11    incorrect.  You must agree with that, right, because that's --

12       A.   Yes, but I was in Raso's apartment, and this 87 did prepare

13    coffee.  During the first time, she sat with us.  And the second time she

14    did not.  She just brought in the coffee and she left.

15       Q.   Witness, you know that I'm asking you about the girl, not 87, and

16    if you don't want to answer that question, I think the Court understands

17    what you mean.

18            When Kovac was wounded, this was the end of December 1992 --

19       A.   Yes.  Yes.

20       Q.   -- in the hospital for only a few days in December 1992; right?

21       A.   Yes.

22            JUDGE MUMBA:  Counsel, it's time.

23            MS. KUO:  Thank you.

24            JUDGE MUMBA:  Counsel, you wanted the witness to bring the log

25    book, whatever it's called?

Page 5829

 1            MS. KUO:  Yes, Your Honour, the log book that she described during

 2    her testimony.

 3            JUDGE MUMBA:  In which the entries about Vukovic's injuries are?

 4            MS. KUO:  Yes.  And I note also that the witness said there are

 5    personal information of other people she doesn't want to divulge, and

 6    that's perfectly understandable.  I would ask that this log book be turned

 7    over to the Court so the Court can make the redaction, or that if there's

 8    a redaction made, that at least -- not that we're second guessing the

 9    ability of the Defence to redact, but I think, since we do have the entire

10    document, in the interests of fairness and justice, that log book be made

11    available, at least to the Court, in its entirety.

12            JUDGE MUMBA:  I would like to ask the witness:  What is the

13    official title of this document?  Is it called a log book?  What is the

14    official title of this document?

15       A.   Yes.  It's the log book.

16            JUDGE MUMBA:  What period does it cover?

17       A.   Well, it's the very beginning.  This was at the very beginning.

18    These were records that were kept at the very beginning.  Afterwards,

19    nobody really kept these records, and they found it somewhere down there

20    in the warehouse.  I wondered whether some of these military documents

21    could be found.

22            JUDGE MUMBA:  I just wanted to know the years, just the years it

23    covered.

24       A.   1992 and perhaps 1993.

25            JUDGE MUMBA:  Mr. Jovanovic, you're on your feet.

Page 5830

 1            MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence is not

 2    opposed to having the book shown to the Trial Chamber; however, what does

 3    concern the Defence is precisely what the witness said.  In it, there are

 4    names of other persons, and there are other events that are registered.

 5    If these other names and events lead to proceedings being initiated

 6    against these persons, or if these persons undergo any unpleasantness due

 7    to the fact that they happen to be in that book and that that is a source

 8    of information for something else, the safety of this witness, the safety

 9    of the family of the accused, will be seriously jeopardised.  That is our

10    concern.

11            We are not against the Court seeing this at all, and to have the

12    page where Zoran Vukovic is registered photocopied, and this can remain in

13    Court under any conditions; however, we are extremely concerned about all

14    the other information contained therein.  We don't want any of it to be

15    published, and we don't want anyone who is not supposed to know about

16    this, to know about this.  We don't want this to be used as grounds for

17    any possible proceedings.

18                          [Trial Chamber confers]

19            JUDGE MUMBA:  Mr. Jovanovic, are you still making submissions?

20            MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I'm just

21    waiting for your answer.

22            JUDGE MUMBA:  What the Trial Chamber will do is to ask the witness

23    to bring this log book with her tomorrow, and we'll deal with it first

24    thing, and then we'll have her identify the places.  We'll go into private

25    session for this.  We'll have her identify the places and read out

Page 5831

 1    whatever is recorded, that which is relevant.  The interpreters, of

 2    course, will assist.

 3            Thereafter, we will have the actual information photocopied.  If

 4    any extra information is there on the photocopy, it will be redacted so

 5    that what will remain with the Court is only what is relevant and not

 6    descriptions of other people, either names or whatever information is in

 7    the log book.

 8            MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence of Zoran

 9    Vukovic thanks you for your understanding.

10            JUDGE MUMBA:  I'm sorry, I'm asking the interpreters to bear with

11    the Trial Chamber for a few more minutes.  We have to deal with a

12    videolink problem.  We were supposed to have videolink, witnesses heard by

13    videolink tomorrow.

14            Before we deal with that, can we have the witness escorted out,

15    and can we go into private session, please.

16            Witness, you have understood, you have to come tomorrow morning

17    with the log book, and you'll continue to be in the witness box.

18            I understand the witness didn't have the earphones on.  You are

19    coming back tomorrow to continue with cross-examination, and you must

20    bring the log book with you.

21            She can't understand?  What has gone wrong?  Is the interpretation

22    still on for the witness?

23       A.   Yes.

24            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes, what I'm saying is that you will continue your

25    evidence tomorrow morning, and you must come with the log book where the

Page 5832

 1    entries regarding the injuries of Zoran Vukovic are.

 2       A.   Does that mean that I'm free to go now?

 3            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes, you may leave the witness box now.

 4            Are we in private session?

 5                          [Private session]

 6    (redacted)

 7    (redacted)

 8    (redacted)

 9    (redacted)

10    (redacted)

11    (redacted)

12    (redacted)

13    (redacted)

14    (redacted)

15    (redacted)

16    (redacted)

17    (redacted)

18    (redacted)

19    (redacted)

20    (redacted)

21    (redacted)

22    (redacted)

23    (redacted)

24    (redacted)

25    (redacted)

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Page 5836

 1    (redacted)

 2    (redacted)

 3    (redacted)

 4    (redacted)

 5    (redacted)

 6    (redacted)

 7    (redacted)

 8                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.20 p.m., to

 9                          be reconvened on Tuesday, the 19th day of September,

10                          2000, at 9.30 a.m.