Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5837

1 Tuesday, 19 September 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Would the registrar please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case number IT-96-23-T and

8 IT-96-23/1-T, the Prosecutor versus Dragoljub Kunarac, Radomir Kovac, and

9 Zoran Vukovic.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness, we are continuing with

11 cross-examination this morning.

12 Counsel for the Prosecution, please.

13 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo: [Continued]

17 Q. Witness, yesterday afternoon before you left the courtroom, the

18 Court asked you to bring in the log book which you said contains the file

19 of Zoran Vukovic's health or injury. Have you brought that today?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could you please have it before you so you can read the relevant

22 entry for the Court.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, take her through -- we want to know the

24 official title, the period it covers, and then she'll go into the

25 particulars as you need.

Page 5838

1 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour.

2 Q. First we would like to have you identify this log book. What is

3 it?

4 A. It represents the register of a number of personnel of this

5 brigade. There are all kinds of numbers there which refers to the

6 brigade, and in the end, the time was entered and the date and the place

7 of the injury. And that was for their needs in the brigades, to be able

8 to track the sick leave, the leave, and so on.

9 Q. Who maintained this log book?

10 A. This was a woman who was in charge of that. I said that

11 yesterday. And her name is there, because she was there.

12 Q. Where was it maintained? In the brigade headquarters?

13 A. At the brigade, that brigade.

14 Q. So you need to take the Court through how this log book was

15 created. When somebody -- when a soldier comes in with an injury, it's

16 recorded?

17 A. No. It was their book. They were entering things there. But

18 when I came, I would enter and record the date and the time, because that

19 was important for them. I entered that because they needed it for their

20 use, to reflect why this person was not in the unit, why they were not in

21 the field, and so on.

22 Q. Is this exclusively a health log book or is it primarily an

23 attendance book?

24 A. No. No. That was a registry of both the attendance and the

25 injury and whatever each soldier needed to have, his particulars,

Page 5839












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 5840

1 specifically the item that you wanted photocopied. There are some

2 numbers, and I don't understand them, and then at the end is my entry,

3 where I recorded the injury and the time and the place where it happened.

4 Q. So the people authorised to make entries were the woman that you

5 mentioned and yourself; right?

6 A. I didn't get the interpretation.

7 Q. You mentioned that there was a woman who maintained the log, and

8 she could make entries in it; correct?

9 A. I didn't get the interpretation again.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: The interpretation for the witness, please, in

11 Serbo-Croat. Are counsel getting it? Maybe there's a problem. Counsel

12 are getting it. Can the usher please assist, see that she has the right

13 number?

14 MS. KUO:

15 Q. Can you hear me and understand me now?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. My question to you is: You mentioned that there was a woman who

18 maintained the log. She could make entries in it; right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. But someone like you could also make entries in it?

21 A. Yes. Yes. No, no, no; only the injuries and where those injuries

22 took place, so that they would have a picture of how many people they had

23 in the unit. This is all I was asked to do.

24 Q. But my question was: You were the one to make those kinds of

25 entries personally; right?

Page 5841

1 A. Yes. That was mine.

2 Q. What time period does this book cover?

3 A. The log book and everything else was kept more accurately while I

4 was there, when I was able to record. And the more it consolidated, the

5 less I was with them, the less I went out to the field, so I couldn't

6 really follow what went on later. In 1994 and 1995, for instance, I was

7 absent for extended periods of time.

8 Q. My only question is regarding the log book and what time the log

9 book covers. What's the first entry and what is the last entry? Please

10 give us the dates.

11 A. Early 1992 until 1993, and I really don't remember the dates, nor

12 did I look when which soldier was injured, nor did I enter --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: The witness can check the log book. She has it

14 there. She can check the first entry the date of the first entry, the

15 date of the last entry by checking the log book which you have in front of

16 you.

17 A. Yes, but they were entered by last name, so I would have to check

18 and --

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Just the date. Just the date I'm interested in.

20 Just the date of the first entry.

21 A. Yes, but as I said, it depended on who was injured when -- I don't

22 know if you understand me -- from the start until 1993.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to Judge Hunt, please.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Just ask what the date of the first entry is and the

25 date of the last entry, and then if she wants to add about when it relates

Page 5842

1 to, we can hear that; but let's get the entries straightened out.

2 MS. KUO: As I understand it, it's filed alphabetically, so she's

3 not able to say -- it is not chronological, is what she's been -- she has

4 told us, so it won't be easy for her. The first entry will be someone

5 with the last name A, so that's why she's having some difficulty with

6 that.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Then we can go to the particulars you

8 need.

9 MS. KUO: Yes.

10 Q. Then perhaps you can go directly to the entry for Zoran Vukovic,

11 which will be filed under V, correct? Could you give us the date for the

12 first entry there for Zoran Vukovic?

13 A. 15 June 1992, and the place is Okoliste.

14 Q. Could you give us the date of the last entry, please, for Zoran

15 Vukovic.

16 A. 27 January 1993, at Rogoj. You can photocopy this part, to take a

17 photocopy of this entry that refers to Zoran Vukovic.

18 Q. Is there information on that same page about some other person, or

19 is only pertaining to Zoran Vukovic, that page?

20 A. Yes. No, there are also other persons there. Yes, there are

21 another three persons there.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the page number? Is there a page

23 number?

24 A. There isn't. It's like this.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: I just wanted to find out, counsel, the particulars

Page 5843












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 5844

1 of the injuries are not recorded.

2 MS. KUO: I haven't gotten there yet.


4 MS. KUO:

5 Q. Returning to that page where the entry of Zoran Vukovic is, please

6 put it before you so you can read it.

7 A. Yes. Yes, can I explain? I told you everything.

8 Q. Could you please open the log book. It's in front of you. Just

9 open the page.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Please read for the Court the entry of June 15th, 1992, regarding

12 Zoran Vukovic. Just read it and it will be interpreted.

13 A. The time and place of the wounding, 15 June 1992, Okoliste; and

14 the second entry is 27 January 1993, Rogoj.

15 Q. That's all it says?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. There's no particular about what injury was sustained on 15 June?

18 A. No. They wanted this only to enter the data in order for them to

19 be able to further deal with it because then he was referred to a

20 physician, and from there on it was out of my hands.

21 Q. So there's nothing in that log book that shows that there was a

22 scrotum or testicle injury to Zoran Vukovic on 15 June, is there?

23 A. No. That is in the medical records. I was not competent to write

24 up such findings. At that time, I went to the physician, I explained what

25 it was, and then he recorded it, and he wrote the prescription field, and

Page 5845

1 my part was only to ensure that the treatment was implemented.

2 Q. So you, Witness, have no documentation of this particular injury

3 to Zoran Vukovic, do you?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Witness, the injury that you talked about is not an injury that

6 was sustained during battle or in the course of his official duties, was

7 it?

8 A. He was in the field, and I don't know whether this was in, in the

9 course of duty. That I don't know. We were all in the field. I was in a

10 tent, and I don't know whether -- what was going on up front in the head,

11 whether there was fighting going on or not.

12 Q. I would like to direct your attention to the statement which you

13 gave Defence investigators on June 1st of 2000 regarding Zoran Vukovic,

14 and you testified yesterday that when you gave the date of May 15th, 1992,

15 as the date of this particular injury, you gave that date --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. -- purely from memory, right?

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Jovanovic.

19 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I need to object to

20 this method of questioning. I followed the transcript yesterday, and I

21 believe that what is being put to the witness now, that it only -- that

22 she didn't say that she did it exclusively based on the memory. This is

23 also reflected in the statement that the witness has given.

24 I think that this is confusing the witness because the witness

25 said how she gave the statement, and there were questions asked. My

Page 5846

1 learned colleague asked whether this was her personal records or military

2 records that the witness later verified and checked, and that is how that

3 date was compared to the date provided here.

4 I think that 5779, lines 1 through 8 are the pertinent lines where

5 these questions were asked.

6 MS. KUO: Your Honours, we are checking the transcript right now

7 and we can actually quote from the transcript so we can be as accurate as

8 possible.

9 Q. Witness, yesterday you were asked by Mr. Jovanovic: "Let me ask

10 you this: When you were asked this question by the investigator and when

11 you were to give an answer to that question, before talking to him, did

12 you review those files to see when this happened, or did you just say

13 based on your memory?" And you answered, "No, this was purely on my

14 memory."

15 That's what you said, Witness, isn't it?

16 A. Now I am completely lost. I did not understand either you nor

17 Mr. Jovanovic on this.

18 Q. Let me just try to make this clear. I'll take you through it step

19 by step. I don't wish to confuse you. We only want everything to be

20 clear. Okay?

21 Now, when you --

22 A. I don't know if this is all later, but I'll wait till you

23 finished, and then maybe if I can, I can tell you what it was.

24 I'm a health worker. I'm for the first time in a situation like

25 this. I was asked whether I could as health worker to explain the type of

Page 5847

1 injury and what was done about it, but as regards dates and all -- I don't

2 know about this confusion that I gave in May, the first one. I don't even

3 know the date when I gave that statement, let alone other dates.

4 Q. Witness, if it would help, we can give you a copy of the

5 statement.

6 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I would like to have

7 this witness shown -- have the statement marked for identification and

8 have the witness shown the statement in B/C/S.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have a number for identification only of the

10 witness statement.

11 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] It will be marked 243, Prosecution

12 Exhibit 243, and it will be marked under seal.

13 MS. KUO:

14 Q. Now, Witness, looking at the last page of that statement, there's

15 a date, right? 1st of June, 2000, and your signature. Do you see it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. On that date you spoke to a Defence investigator who asked you

18 questions about Zoran Vukovic, right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You were asked questions about an injury to his scrotum that

21 was -- that occurred in 1992?

22 A. Yes. Correct.

23 Q. Turning to the second page of the statement, toward the end of

24 your statement, there's a paragraph that starts, "In my file for Zoran

25 Vukovic..." Do you see that?

Page 5848












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 5849

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And I'll just read it out loud: "In my file for Zoran Vukovic, I

3 have filed scrotum injury he got when he had fallen on the tree at the

4 position in the region of the village Okoliste on 15 May 1992."

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When you spoke with the Defence investigator, you told him that in

7 your file you had filed this injury and you gave the date of 15 May 1992;

8 right?

9 A. Now, whether this was mistyped or whether I said it that way in

10 error, I really don't know, because in my records I had -- you know, I

11 was -- I didn't -- when they first asked me whether I remember and I

12 entered those things in the book, I don't know whether this was a mistake

13 or whether that was something that I just entered it in error. I never

14 imagined that I would be asked about this, because I'm for the first time

15 in a situation like this. (redacted)

16 (redacted). This is

17 what I'm focused on. But it could have -- I don't know -- it could have

18 been in May [as interpreted]. I don't know about these dates.

19 Q. It could have been in May; you don't know?

20 A. No, it couldn't have been May.

21 Q. I'm sorry. It could not have been May or it could have been May?

22 A. No. No, it could not have been in May.

23 Q. Witness, when you gave this statement, part of the statement is

24 that you have -- and I'll just read it:

25 "It is everything I have to say for the time being. The

Page 5850

1 investigator read the statement to me, and the same I am ready to repeat

2 before the Tribunal in The Hague, so as such I personally sign it."

3 And then you signed it; right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So at the time you gave the statement and signed it, you knew that

6 you could be asked questions about this here in this very courtroom;

7 right?

8 A. I thought that I should say what I know about that. And as

9 regards the dates, if I were to read this statement five times, maybe; I

10 don't know. I read everything, both statements, at that time, and after

11 that I didn't read it anymore. Because I know -- I remember the date, I

12 remember the time which I spent there, I remember the situations I was in,

13 because so much was going on.

14 Q. In your statement you did not say, "I'm not sure of the date. I

15 need to check my file." You did not say that, did you?

16 A. But I said then that it was 15 June, because I did not record

17 everything at that time. I said that it was, but perhaps it was a

18 mistake. It was -- or maybe it was mistyped, 5 and 6.

19 Q. Mistyped?

20 A. Go ahead. Yes.

21 Q. So now you're telling the Court that you did tell the investigator

22 that it was June, that you did check the file before you gave this answer

23 to the investigator, but the only error is that it was mistyped?

24 A. Yes. Yes. And my mistake because I wasn't aware how much I

25 needed to focus on the dates, so my mistake is not to have looked at it.

Page 5851

1 Q. Your mistake was that you spoke before you had a chance to check

2 with all the other evidence so that you can change the date to June; isn't

3 that right? You know now why the dates are important, and that's why it's

4 suddenly June; isn't that right?

5 A. No. I don't know why these dates are so important even now. I'm

6 just here to say about these injuries and when they happened.

7 MS. KUO: Let's move on, and before we do, the Prosecution would

8 like to enter this exhibit in evidence so the Court can see for itself the

9 date that is contained there.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Under seal?

11 MS. KUO: Yes.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number, please.

13 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document will keep the same

14 number, 243, and it will be admitted under seal as a Prosecution Exhibit.

15 MS. KUO: And likewise, the Prosecution would like to have the log

16 book entry for Zoran Vukovic identified and entered into evidence, just

17 the entry on him, and of course preserving the --

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, I thought we -- we've got enough, because

19 we've got the particulars right and recorded, and there are no particulars

20 of injuries, so that would be irrelevant, really.

21 MS. KUO: Very well, Your Honour.

22 Q. Witness, you've testified that you -- just going back to something

23 you said yesterday, you said that there were no deliveries of fresh food

24 because the roads were blocked. Do you remember testifying about that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5852












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 5853

1 Q. But it was possible to go to Montenegro by bus to buy supplies;

2 isn't that right?

3 A. Very rarely.

4 Q. If somebody were selling fruits or vegetables or other things on

5 the market, that person could simply apply for a permit to go by bus to

6 Montenegro to buy supplies; right?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. You testified that you've known Zoran Vukovic for many years, and

9 I would like to ask you some questions about his background.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Zoran Vukovic was married; right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And his wife worked in a tobacco or news kiosk; is that right?

14 A. I don't know where she worked. She's a saleswoman, but where she

15 worked, I don't know.

16 Q. And Zoran Vukovic, during the war, had a daughter who -- or, I'm

17 sorry -- has a daughter who, during the war, was a teenager; is that

18 right?

19 A. I didn't understand that.

20 Q. Zoran Vukovic has a daughter; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In 1992 she was a teenager; right?

23 A. I don't understand the word.

24 Q. How old was his daughter in 1992?

25 A. I think she was under age; a child.

Page 5854

1 Q. How old was she?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. Could you please give us an approximate date, or an approximate

4 age? She wasn't 5 years old?

5 A. No.

6 Q. She was more like 15 years old; right?

7 A. I don't know. She was quite a big girl. I don't know her very

8 closely, especially before, so I really couldn't tell. All the children

9 were not even there at the beginning of the war, so I wouldn't see her

10 often at all.

11 Q. You did see her, though, at some point during the war?

12 A. Who?

13 Q. Zoran Vukovic's daughter.

14 A. I don't remember. I don't know.

15 Q. She was in high school; right?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. In any event, she wasn't a small child?

18 A. I think she was not. Among the members of that family, I knew

19 Zoran more than the others as they lived in a different part of town

20 altogether. So I knew Zoran most of all because he was more often in the

21 same company as I than the others.

22 Q. You saw girl 87, you've testified yesterday; right?

23 MS. KUO: If the witness could be shown the exhibit she had

24 yesterday to refresh her memory.

25 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] It is Prosecution Exhibit 242.

Page 5855

1 A. Yes.

2 MS. KUO:

3 Q. Zoran Vukovic's daughter was approximately the same age as girl

4 87; right?

5 A. I don't know. I don't know.

6 Q. You don't know or you don't want to say?

7 A. I don't know. I don't know.

8 Q. Did they appear -- I'm not asking you now about the exact

9 date -- or the exact age. Did they look like they were the same age, just

10 by appearances?

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Kolesar.

12 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. I think

13 that the witness has answered this question, and it has been customary in

14 this courtroom for an answer "I don't know" to be accepted, and that at

15 least was the case whenever the Prosecution witnesses were cross-examined,

16 and this witness has said she doesn't know.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, the circumstances of the counsel's

18 questioning are different from those other instances, so counsel can

19 proceed and press for the truth. Your objection is overruled.

20 MS. KUO:

21 Q. Witness, I'm only asking about appearances. Isn't it true

22 that --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sorry. Mr. Jovanovic, can you counsel your

24 client to remain silent in Court, please; otherwise he will be put up for

25 contempt.

Page 5856

1 MS. KUO:

2 Q. Witness, Zoran Vukovic's daughter looked to be about the same age

3 as girl 87; right? I know you don't have the exact dates, but they looked

4 like they could be the same age; right? You saw them both.

5 A. Until recently, I didn't even know his daughter in person; that

6 is, I was not able to tell which one she was among all those children.

7 Q. So now you're saying to the Court that you did not see Zoran

8 Vukovic's daughter during the war? Is that what you're saying?

9 A. I didn't understand.

10 Q. Did you see Zoran Vukovic's daughter during the war? Yes or no.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. When you saw Zoran Vukovic's daughter during the war, did she look

13 like she was about the same age as girl 87? Yes or no.

14 A. I cannot tell you. If I had seen them together, perhaps I could

15 give you an answer, but one was quite different in build from the other.

16 I don't know how to explain that to you now.

17 Q. The question was about their age, not about their build. They

18 looked about the same age, right? Normal people can tell if people look

19 about the same age. Could you please tell the Court if they looked about

20 the same age or not. It's very simple.

21 A. I think that Zoran's daughter appeared to be younger, thinner,

22 less developed. I don't know how to put it. Smaller. And this person

23 under 87 looked more mature.

24 Q. But otherwise, their ages were approximately -- it wasn't a very

25 big difference in their ages, was there?

Page 5857

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Jovanovic.

2 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it seems to me that

3 the witness has said a number of times that she doesn't know how old they

4 were, and if she doesn't know how old they were, how can she compare their

5 ages? And I think that she just said that she seemed to be smaller,

6 slimmer, less developed, but she doesn't know how old either of them were.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Jovanovic. Yes, counsel, I think she has

8 answered the question sufficiently.

9 MS. KUO: Very well, Your Honour, I'll move on.

10 Q. Where did Zoran Vukovic live before the war?

11 A. With his mother.

12 Q. Where? What neighbourhood in Foca?

13 A. It's known as Donje Polje, the beginning of Donje Polje. Behind

14 the blue skyscraper, and then you turn left, and there's a building there,

15 and that's where he stayed with his mother.

16 Q. Do you know what colour Zoran Vukovic's eyes are?

17 A. Blue. Blue or green; I don't know.

18 Q. Now, you mentioned several instances where Zoran Vukovic helped

19 individuals in Foca, and that was during the period of May and June 1992,

20 right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Which means that he was physically present in Foca in May and June

23 of 1992, right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You don't happen to have any photographs of him during this time,

Page 5858












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 5859

1 do you, showing that he was, in fact, in Foca?

2 A. [No audible response].

3 MS. KUO: Perhaps we can ask the audiovisual director now to play

4 Prosecution Exhibit 217. It's a very short videotape, and I would like to

5 ask this witness if she can identify the person in the videotape.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Jovanovic.

7 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think the

8 Prosecutor is referring to a tape that we have had occasion to see a

9 number of times and from which the Prosecutor has made a still, enlarged

10 it, and distributed it to all of us for us to be able to say whether that

11 is the person the Prosecutor says it is or not. I think that this is a

12 matter that has been debated and settled in Court. We've all seen it

13 several times, even the photographs, the stills from that video.

14 If the Prosecution considers it very important for this witness to

15 see this film -- is that the video in which a person appears with a hat?

16 If we're talking about the same clip and the same photograph, I assume it

17 would be easier for the Prosecution to show that photograph to the witness

18 so that we don't have to see the video once again.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: What's your problem, Mr. Jovanovic, because we are

20 dealing with this witness this time. She hasn't been before the Tribunal

21 before, and she hasn't been asked questions about that video clip before.

22 It's the other witness we've been dealing with, the other witnesses, not

23 this witness. And she has said she knew Zoran Vukovic from before the

24 war.

25 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Maybe I misunderstood. I thought

Page 5860

1 the question of that tape -- I don't mind at all that the witness should

2 see it, but I personally thought that it has been shown to the Chamber a

3 number of times, and that the question of identification has been settled.

4 Maybe I am wrong, but we have no objection at all that the witness see it.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: There's no ruling by the Trial Chamber on the issue

6 of identification of Zoran Vukovic.

7 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, then that is my

8 mistake. We do not object at all for the witness to see that clip and to

9 be asked any questions about it that are necessary.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Jovanovic, by standing up and describing what's

11 in that tape, you have probably done the best way you could of destroying

12 the value of the evidence this witness could give.

13 May I suggest that if you want to make submissions about the tape,

14 if this is going to be shown to some other witness, you do not describe

15 what's going to be seen on it. That's for the witness to make her own

16 mind up after she's seen it. But that was a very irregular thing to have

17 done.

18 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand my mistake and I'm

19 sorry. Thank you.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, go ahead.

21 MS. KUO: Okay.

22 Q. We're going to ask that this videotape be played, and let me just

23 explain to you what we'd like you to do while it's being played. Please

24 pay attention to the person who is shown in the clip who is wearing a hat,

25 a kind of a cowboy hat, and just look closely at that person so you can

Page 5861

1 answer some questions about whether you recognise that person.

2 MS. KUO: May we have Exhibit 217 played, please. Wait a minute

3 while the witness's video screen is turned on. Okay. We're ready to

4 roll.

5 [Videotape played]

6 MS. KUO: Okay, thank you very much.

7 Q. Witness, were you able to identify who that person was with the

8 hat who was smoking in the videotape?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you need to see the videotape again, or you can't identify that

11 person at all?

12 A. No, I can't. I tried hard. I couldn't recognise this other

13 person there, either.

14 Q. Well, now, in your testimony, you described a few instances where

15 Zoran Vukovic helped out non-Serbs, and one of them was with regard to a

16 Muslim man whom he helped. Do you remember that?

17 A. You mean this person? I don't know whether we said we could use

18 the names --

19 Q. You may use the name.

20 A. -- of these Muslims. You mean Fada, you're referring to Fada, are

21 you? He is a man of Muslim ethnicity who was in the KP Dom. I met Zoran

22 on a number of occasions going to and from SUP.

23 Q. Okay. Let me just ask you some particular questions about that.

24 The KP Dom was used before the war as a prison for men, right;

25 that is, for criminals, people who had been convicted of crimes?

Page 5862

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. During the war, not everybody who was detained in KP Dom was a

3 criminal, right? There were other people detained at KP Dom?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. Now, the reason that this particular Muslim man was detained at KP

6 Dom was not because he committed a crime, but that because he was simply

7 Muslim, right? That's the only reason he was detained there?

8 A. I don't know that either. Why he was there, how much time he

9 spent there, or who was in the KP Dom in general, I don't know.

10 Q. But your understanding of what Zoran Vukovic did was that he

11 obtained some documentation and helped this man get out of KP Dom, right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And it wouldn't be heroic, would it, really helping anyone, if

14 indeed the person detained in the prison deserved to be there, was a

15 criminal?

16 A. I don't know. I don't know.

17 Q. Are you saying that the man that Zoran Vukovic helped to get out

18 of KP Dom was in fact a criminal? Is that what you're saying?

19 A. No.

20 Q. So he was not a criminal.

21 A. I don't know the circumstances under which he was there, for how

22 long, and all those things. I really don't know. Zoran didn't tell me,

23 nor did I ask him. I just met him in passing, running around, getting

24 documents for him. That's all.

25 Q. But you've testified about this incident to the Court because you

Page 5863












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 5864

1 believe that it shows that Zoran Vukovic is in some way heroic because he

2 helps people, right?

3 A. No, not a hero, just a man of good intentions. Why a hero?

4 Q. A man with good intentions who's helping somebody out who deserves

5 to be in prison because he's criminal? Is it good intentions to help

6 someone who is a criminal get out of prison?

7 A. I don't know whether he was. If he felt he needed to help

8 somebody just then because that person was a friend and he felt that

9 perhaps he could help him, why not?

10 Q. Isn't it true, Witness, that all over Foca in May and June of

11 1992, non-Serb men were being arrested and detained in KP Dom; isn't that

12 a fact?

13 A. I don't know. I don't know.

14 Q. Very well. Let's talk about Jelena Sokolovic, the Croat midwife

15 that you testified about. You said that Zoran Vukovic helped her, right,

16 because she had been --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Because she had been taken in by some gypsies; is that right?

19 A. I don't know whether they took her away or attacked her house, but

20 she told me in passing that she had lived through certain traumatic

21 experiences, that some unknown people had come and attacked her house.

22 Whether Zoran happened to pass by or whether she called him in, I don't

23 know, but she just said that Zoran had helped her, and that's all I know

24 about the whole case.

25 Q. Isn't it true that the people who attacked her were acting in an

Page 5865

1 official capacity, trying to detain her or to intimidate her?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. Zoran Vukovic, as far as you know, volunteered to be a soldier,

4 right?

5 A. It wasn't really volunteering, it was an obligation. There was a

6 war on.

7 Q. And at one point, please correct me if I'm incorrect about this,

8 did you say that he stopped being a soldier before the war ended, or was

9 he a soldier throughout the war?

10 A. No. Because of his injuries, he could no longer go to the front.

11 He couldn't take part in the fighting because of his injuries and, as a

12 result, he was assigned to other duties.

13 Q. But he remained actively involved in the military operations,

14 right? Just closer to home.

15 A. I don't understand.

16 Q. He was assigned by the military to duties in and around Foca, not

17 at the front; right?

18 A. After his injuries and after returning from sick leave, he drove

19 the ambulance and, if the need arose, to collect blood, to transport the

20 sick and that sort of thing, as far as I know, but I didn't go around

21 checking. But if somebody needed blood transfusion, I know that we looked

22 him up.

23 Q. Just to clarify, the injuries that you discussed which made it not

24 possible for him to go actually fight at the front, what injury is that?

25 Is that the injury to the scrotum that you talked about earlier or is that

Page 5866

1 some other injury?

2 A. The scrotum injury. And after that, in January, I think it was,

3 at the end of January, he had some other injuries, at Rogoj. I don't

4 think they were very serious injuries, but still everyone preferred not to

5 have to go to the front, and that was how he was assigned other duties.

6 Q. So in other words, the injury that he obtained to his scrotum did

7 not incapacitate him from fighting; right? He continued until January,

8 when he got this other injury; right?

9 A. No. No.

10 Q. And in January, this other injury was also not very serious but

11 was a good excuse, if you will, for not going to the front?

12 A. Yes. Yes.

13 Q. Now, you've told the Court that Zoran Vukovic was happiest when he

14 was helping people. He, as far as you know, did not help any of the women

15 or girls detained at Partizan Sports Hall in Foca, did he?

16 A. No.

17 Q. He also did not help any of the girls who were being kept in

18 Radomir Kovac's flat in Foca, did he?

19 A. I don't know anything about Partizan or whether he helped anyone

20 else except for those persons that I saw and that I personally had contact

21 with. I know nothing else.

22 Q. So in other words, Zoran Vukovic helped those people whom he felt

23 like helping; isn't that right?

24 A. I don't know who he helped. I know what I was told and what I

25 saw, and whether he helped anyone else or not, I really don't know.

Page 5867

1 MS. KUO: No further questions.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Re-examination, Mr. Kolesar?

3 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, but I'll be very

4 brief.

5 Re-examined by Mr. Kolesar:

6 Q. I would like to go back to your examination yesterday before the

7 Trial Chamber. If I remember correctly, at the time after the hospital,

8 after he got out of hospital and after his wounds from the front line were

9 treated, on two occasions you came to Radomir Kovac's apartment.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When you were there the first time, did you see only one girl or

12 did you see both girls, in terms of the girls you saw at the Cafe

13 Leonardo?

14 A. I saw one girl.

15 Q. Could you tell us which girl that was?

16 A. 87.

17 Q. When you were there the other time, was one girl present or two

18 girls?

19 A. One girl.

20 Q. Which one?

21 A. 87.

22 Q. Am I inferring a correct conclusion if I say that, after seeing

23 the other girl at the Cafe Leonardo, you never saw her again?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Something else: In your statement that you gave to the Defence

Page 5868












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 5869

1 investigator on the 22nd of May, you also mentioned that in your records

2 you have the illness and wound of the injured Kovac registered.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is that the same log book where Zoran Vukovic's injuries are

5 registered?

6 A. I think it is, but let me take a look. Yes.

7 Q. Is anything recorded next to Radomir Kovac's name? Please open

8 this book and take a look.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you tell us what is recorded there?

11 A. 25th of June, 1992; and the 24th of December, 1992.

12 Q. Is there anything else that is recorded in this book except for

13 that?

14 A. No.

15 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

16 questions.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic?

18 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. We have no

19 further questions.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Witness, for giving evidence to

21 the Tribunal. You are now free. You may leave the witness box.

22 MS. KUO: The witness seems to be a little bit confused about

23 whether she should take the log book with her.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: You should take the log book with you. The Trial

25 Chamber doesn't need it. You should take the log book with you. The

Page 5870

1 Trial Chamber does not need it.

2 [The witness withdrew]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness. Please make the solemn

5 declaration.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

7 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Do sit down.

11 Who is examining the witness? Mr. Kolesar, please go ahead.

12 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. It will be

13 me.

14 Examined by Mr. Kolesar:

15 Q. Good morning, Witness.

16 A. Good morning.

17 Q. Can you hear me well?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I shall tell you that the Honourable Trial Chamber has granted

20 your request for protective measures, so your face will not be displayed

21 on the screens and your name will not be disclosed. Instead, you will be

22 assigned a pseudonym, and that will be used during your questioning.

23 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher to put

24 one of these sheets of paper before the witness, and the other copies are

25 for the Trial Chamber, the registry, and the Prosecutors.

Page 5871

1 Q. Please take a look at this piece of paper. There is a name and

2 surname there. Is that your name and surname?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Date of birth. Is the date of birth on that piece of paper your

5 date of birth?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And what about the place of birth? Is that your place of birth?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I would like to have this document

10 admitted into evidence as a Defence Exhibit under seal, please.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can I have the number?

12 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The exhibit will be D164 of the

13 Defence and it will be registered under seal.

14 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

15 Q. There is something else that I would like to ask you. You and I

16 speak the same language; however, what we are saying is being

17 interpreted. So please, when I put a question to you, can you wait before

18 you answer so that the interpreters can interpret that and then slowly

19 give an answer so that the interpreters could interpret that.

20 A. Very well.

21 Q. Tell me, please: What kind of an education have you had?

22 A. Catering school. I'm a qualified waiter.

23 Q. What did you do before the war?

24 A. I worked as a waiter at motels, hotels, and finally in my own

25 business.

Page 5872

1 Q. And during the war?

2 A. During the war, I worked in my own business.

3 Q. Where was your own business and what was it called?

4 A. It was in Foca, Srbinje. (redacted).

5 Q. (redacted)

6 (redacted).

7 A. (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 Q. Do you know a person called Radomir Kovac?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Please look around the courtroom and try to identify him.

13 A. He's sitting at my left.

14 Q. Viewed from the door through which you entered the courtroom on

15 the left-hand side, where is he?

16 A. He is the fourth person from that door.

17 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] May the record reflect that the

18 witness identified the accused Kovac.

19 Q. Since when have the two of you known each other? Could you

20 describe this for us a bit, please.

21 A. We've known each other since we were young children. We spent our

22 childhood together in the Brod neighbourhood. We completed elementary

23 school together except that he was a class ahead of me. Later on, he

24 would come to my catering establishment, both before the war and after the

25 war.

Page 5873












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 5874

1 Q. Did he often come to your cafe?

2 A. After completing school, he worked in Sarajevo. He would come

3 over the weekend, so we would see each other during the weekend.

4 Q. And during the war, when your cafe was open, did he come then; and

5 if so, how often?

6 A. He did come to my cafe. He would stop by. Yes, yes, he would

7 come to the cafe.

8 Q. You said that you've known each other since childhood. What was

9 he like as a boy and later on as a young man? You did not go to the same

10 grade and you were not in the same classroom, but do you know what kind of

11 a pupil he was? Can you describe him a bit?

12 A. I know that as young children we were good friends, and I know he

13 was a good student. As far as I know him, I can say only the best about

14 him.

15 Q. When the war started, when did you open your cafe?

16 A. At the beginning of September 1992.

17 Q. Do you remember when the accused Kovac first came to your cafe

18 during the war?

19 A. Since I made a statement eight years later, on the basis of my

20 memory, I think it was the end of 1992. In my statement I said it was

21 October, but I think I made a mistake -- I think it was mid-November

22 1992 -- precisely because so much time has gone by. I think it was the

23 month of November.

24 Q. On the basis of what do you think it was mid-November rather than

25 mid-October, as you say yourself that you had stated earlier?

Page 5875

1 A. Later on, when I thought about this and when I talked to my

2 sister, when we analysed the situation in greater detail, I came to the

3 conclusion that it was cold, that the cafe was full. Usually when it's

4 cold, my cafe is full as opposed to situations when it's not that cold.

5 Q. You mentioned your sister. What's her name, and how come that she

6 knows about all of this?

7 A. She worked with me in the cafe, and she knows about all of this.

8 Q. Do you remember who he came with that evening, the first time?

9 A. When I made that statement, I made a mistake in that respect, too.

10 I said that he came with DO, but it was another person, actually. I don't

11 know, perhaps I should write down this person's name and surname. This

12 was a gentleman.

13 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I don't know, Your Honours. I don't

14 know who this is. I don't know whether this person is a witness. I don't

15 know whether this person is under protection, but perhaps to be on the

16 safe side, he should write down the name rather than saying it, or perhaps

17 he can say it.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: He can write it down on a piece of paper and show

19 you, see if it's a protected witness.

20 Is it a protected witness?

21 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] As far as I know, no.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Then we can have the name mentioned, 'cause this

23 name was mentioned, particularly during cross-examination, so you can go

24 ahead and mention the name.

25 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

Page 5876

1 Q. With the approval of the Court, you can give the name and surname

2 of this person.

3 A. Together with Radomir, together with Radomir Kovac, it was Jagos

4 Kostic.

5 Q. Who else?

6 A. Two girls.

7 Q. Do you remember where they sat and who served them?

8 A. They sat at the first table left of the bar. They were served by

9 the waiters who were working that evening in the cafe. They're mentioned

10 in my statement.

11 Q. Tell me the following: I have to ask you once again, in your

12 statement you said a different name, a name of a witness who was a

13 protected witness and whose name is on your list under the initials DO,

14 and now you say it is Jagos Kostic. How come? How come there is this

15 difference between what you're telling us now and what you said during

16 your interview with the investigator?

17 A. When I gave this statement, I did not pay much attention to it.

18 When I was called as a witness to testify before this Court, I thought

19 about this a lot. I consulted my sister, and I came to the conclusion

20 that Witness DO was not there, that it was Jagos Kostic, precisely because

21 they're very similar. That's why I made a mistake. This time it was

22 Jagos Kostic; it was not DO.

23 Q. Do I understand you correctly, you also know this person with the

24 initials DO?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5877

1 Q. Do you perhaps know the time when they came to the cafe?

2 A. They came approximately around 8.00 in the evening.

3 Q. While they were there, did Radomir Kovac walk up to you at the

4 bar?

5 A. Sometime between 10 and 10.30 he came up to the bar. He walked up

6 to me, and he offered me a drink. I refused, though. I asked whether

7 they would like to have a drink on the house, which they accepted on the

8 condition that I sit with them at their table. That's what I did.

9 Q. How long did you sit with them?

10 A. About ten minutes. I couldn't stay any longer because I was very

11 busy that evening. I was working with my sister at the bar, so it was

12 about ten minutes.

13 Q. Can you describe these girls?

14 A. Well, quite a bit of time has gone by, so I can only remember that

15 they were very good looking, medium height. One was shorter than the

16 other one. Then --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Sorry, Ms. Lopicic.

18 MS. LOPICIC: On page 32 of my laptop, row 14, sometimes between

19 10 and 10.30. I heard the witness said 2000 hours to 20.30, actually 8,

20 8.30 in the evening.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, let's correct it. Counsel can ask the question

22 again to correct it, to say what time it was.

23 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

24 Q. I'm asking you again, when did Kovac and his company come to your

25 place, and when did Kovac walk up to you at the bar?

Page 5878












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 5879

1 A. The company arrived around 2000 hours, and Kovac walked up to me

2 around 20 to 3000 [sic] hours.

3 Q. Thank you. I think we have clarified that now.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, it is 2230 hours, meaning

5 10.30 p.m., for the record.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Between 20 hours and 10.30 p.m. Can you verify with

7 the witness, please, because if he means between 20 hours and 20.30, it's

8 different.

9 JUDGE HUNT: The translation is correct, the typing is wrong.

10 It's been -- an error has been repeated in the transcript.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we just have it corrected because it seems what

12 the interpreter said and what is in the transcript are not the same.

13 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

14 Q. I'm going to put two questions to you. When did Kovac and his

15 company arrive at the cafe?

16 A. 2000 hours, 8 p.m.

17 Q. My other question is, when did Kovac walk up to you at the bar?

18 A. At 10.30 p.m.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, please proceed.

20 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

21 Q. You started describing the way these girls looked, but you were

22 interrupted. Can you tell us something else in terms of what they looked

23 like?

24 A. I think I already said that, that they were very good looking,

25 that the taller one had short hair, blond. That's it.

Page 5880

1 Q. Did the accused Kovac introduce them to you then?

2 A. He introduced the girl who was next to him saying that this was

3 his girlfriend. We said hello to each other. She told me her name. I

4 didn't really pay much attention to that. It seemed incredible. The

5 other girl said hello to me. So I did not talk very much after that.

6 Q. How did these people behave that evening? Especially how did

7 Kovac behave towards this girl whom he introduced as his girlfriend?

8 A. Very nicely, like a true gentleman.

9 Q. When did they leave the cafe?

10 A. Around 11 p.m., 2300 hours.

11 Q. When did you see the accused Kovac again?

12 A. After two days, in my cafe.

13 Q. Who was he with?

14 A. He was alone. He was having coffee.

15 Q. Did you talk, the two of you?

16 A. We talked precisely about the girl he was with the other evening

17 and the people he was with. I asked him whether it was normal in that

18 kind of a situation at that time to have that kind of a girlfriend like

19 FWS-87. He said, "That's my affair," and we did not discuss that any

20 more.

21 Q. Excuse me, what was wrong with the girl?

22 A. Well, nothing, but because of the situation, the war operations --

23 nothing, nothing, nothing was wrong with her. She had a different ethnic

24 background.

25 Q. Did those girls stop by your cafe some other time, either on their

Page 5881

1 own or with Kovac or with some other company?

2 A. Yes. They did stop by my cafe regularly, sometime in the

3 afternoon, sometimes in the evening, sometimes on their own, sometimes

4 with other company.

5 Q. In the statement you gave to the Defence investigators, you

6 mentioned that Raso and they were in the cafe for the New Year. Are you

7 referring to the official New Year, so to speak, or the Orthodox New

8 Year? I'm asking you because I know that, in that area, people celebrate

9 the Orthodox New Year more than the official New Year.

10 A. It is the evening of the 13th of January. That is the Orthodox

11 New Year's Eve. As far as international New Year's Eve is concerned, we

12 celebrate it just like that.

13 Q. Can you remember in greater detail who was there and how they were

14 celebrating the New Year?

15 A. That evening, Mr. Kovac was there with Witness FWS-87. They were

16 celebrating in my cafe. They were dancing. It was a normal party.

17 Q. You said to me that you spent your childhood with Kovac, so I

18 presume that you know, and if you do know, please tell me whether he had

19 any siblings.

20 A. I know that he had a brother.

21 Q. Older or younger?

22 A. He was older than him.

23 Q. Do you know his name?

24 A. Milomir, I think. His nickname was Micko.

25 Q. What did he do?

Page 5882

1 A. Before the war broke out, he was a taxi driver, as far as I can

2 remember.

3 Q. Did Micko and Radomir look like -- resemble each other?

4 A. Well, they were similar.

5 Q. Did Micko also take part in the war operations on the side of the

6 army of Republika Srpska?

7 A. Well, at the very outset, he committed suicide. I don't know

8 why. I don't know what the reasons are. I wouldn't like to go into that.

9 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no

10 further questions of this witness.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: We will take our break now and the witness will have

12 to come back for cross-examination at 11.30 hours.

13 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, before the Prosecution, I wondered whether

16 Mr. Jovanovic would have questions for this witness.

17 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Thank you.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll proceed with cross-examination, then.

19 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo:

21 Q. Good morning, Witness.

22 A. Good morning.

23 Q. Witness, are you familiar with the Lepa Brena apartment buildings?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. (redacted) How

Page 5883












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 5884

1 far away?

2 A. (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 Q. And what kind of neighbourhood was your cafe located in? And by

6 that, I mean what was the ethnic composition before the war?

7 A. That area was predominantly inhabited by the Serbs, but the area

8 where I was in was ethnically mixed, where my coffee bar was. That was

9 mixed Serbian and Muslim population.

10 Q. And shortly before the war, your cafe was still open; right? Let

11 me rephrase it. When did your cafe close?

12 A. When the fighting started, it was closed temporarily, not

13 officially, because I had the permit which was -- I had a lawful permit to

14 operate.

15 Q. And why was the cafe closed?

16 A. Because the war had broken out. There was fighting going on

17 during a period of time.

18 Q. So it was your decision to close the cafe; right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And when you reopened the cafe at the beginning of September 1992,

21 did you need special permission to reopen it?

22 A. The certificate which I had was still valid. I did not have to go

23 and get any additional documents.

24 Q. In the statement that you gave to the Defence investigator in

25 April of this year, you said that, "When the war conflict broke out in

Page 5885

1 Foca, I closed my cafe and the same was opened again by the approval of

2 Foca community authorised organ by the beginning of September 1992." So

3 you did need permission, didn't you?

4 A. The permit was needed, but I had one which was still valid, which

5 was still not -- which had not expired yet.

6 Q. So the approval of the Foca community authorised organ, you're

7 saying, was not something to reopen the cafe but something that preexisted

8 the war; is that what you're saying?

9 A. At that time, there were temporary provisional certificates

10 issued. That was a document and that was not in any conflict with my

11 keeping it open and operating it.

12 Q. So you had a provisional certificate as well?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, Witness, you mentioned that the incident when you saw Radomir

15 Kovac, Jagos Kostic and two girls enter your cafe took place in November

16 of 1992, not in October; right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And although you stated in your statement of April of this year

19 that it was October 10th, 1992, upon reflection, you've revised it to

20 November, mid-November 1992, right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And the reason for that was that it -- you remembered it was cold

23 that day, and that's why the cafe was full, and therefore it had to be

24 November, right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5886












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 5887

1 Q. And you remember for a fact that it was never cold, not even one

2 night, in October 1992? You remember that clearly?

3 A. The time has gone by, but when I sat down with my sister, I gave

4 it good thought, and jointly we reached a conclusion that it could have

5 been November. And I gave you the reasons: It was cold, and you don't

6 have such cold in October; and it's busiest, my business is at its busiest

7 at wintertime. So I came to a conclusion that it could have been in

8 November, mid-November, approximately.

9 Q. But you're not sure of that, are you?

10 A. To be certain after eight years have passed, I don't know about

11 that.

12 Q. But you do remember that it was Radomir Kovac and Jagos Kostic

13 that came in with two girls. You're very clear about that, right? You

14 remember that? It could not have been anyone else?

15 A. No.

16 Q. You were asked a question about Radomir Kovac's brother being very

17 similar to him. It wasn't his brother; it was actually Radomir Kovac,

18 right?

19 A. Can you please repeat the question?

20 Q. The person you saw walk into your cafe with Jagos Kostic and the

21 two girls was not Radomir Kovac's brother, but Radomir Kovac himself,

22 right?

23 A. Yes, it was Radomir Kovac.

24 Q. And as you say, it's been eight years, but you still remember that

25 it was precisely 8.00 in the evening when they came in, right? You

Page 5888

1 remember the time.

2 A. Most of my guests, my patrons, arrive around 8.00 in my cafe, and

3 that party arrived there. And also, it is open till 11, so this is how I

4 gauge the time.

5 Q. And so you also remember now, eight years later, that it was 10.30

6 when he came over to talk to you that night, right?

7 A. That is an approximate time based on the, on the memory. I cannot

8 give -- I cannot say specifically it was at that time or half an hour

9 minus.

10 Q. You also remember now, eight years later, that you stayed with

11 them for ten minutes, right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you also remember now, eight years later, that they left at

14 11.00 that night?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you also remember now, eight years later, that two days after

17 this, Radomir Kovac came to your cafe, and you had the conversation about

18 the girl he introduced as his girlfriend, right? Just two days later.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In fact, you even remember it was at around noontime that this

21 happened; isn't that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, you've told us that you asked Radomir Kovac if it was normal

24 at that time to have that kind of girlfriend, and by that you meant she

25 was from a different ethnic background, so during the war that's something

Page 5889

1 that was highly unusual, right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Because in fact, the conflict that was happening in Foca was

4 between the Serbs and the Muslims primarily, right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And in fact, at about that time, there were hardly any Muslims

7 left in Foca, were there?

8 A. I don't know exactly. There were some.

9 Q. You did not have Muslims among your patrons at (redacted),

10 did you?

11 A. No, not during the fighting. Except for these two girls who came

12 with Klanfa, I did not have others.

13 Q. In fact, just referring to the statement you gave in April, you

14 stated then, "I told him that he was crazy having at that time a

15 girlfriend, a Muslim girl." Did you use that word, "crazy"?

16 A. Something like that. I said what I said in my statement.

17 Q. Now, you've testified that you saw these two girls regularly

18 because they stopped by in the afternoons to your cafe; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In your statement of April of this year, you were asked and you

21 answered, I'll quote, "When you ask me whether those girls were coming to

22 my cafe later on, I claim they were. I will not tell they were regular

23 guests, but they were in my cafe at least 15 to 20 times."

24 A. Yes, they were in my cafe.

25 Q. But they were not regular customers at your cafe?

Page 5890

1 A. From what I remember, they came between 15 and 20 times to

2 my cafe.

3 Q. And each of those 15 to 20 times, you were present in your cafe?

4 A. I said how many times I saw them. Maybe they were there more

5 frequently.

6 Q. You also described in your statement this incident on New Year's

7 Eve of 1993, and you claimed that you saw Radomir Kovac and girl 87

8 there. In fact, you described that they were celebrating and dancing;

9 right?

10 A. Yes.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, when you call it "New Year's Eve," can you

12 explain more; that is, the eve of 13th January? Because otherwise, if you

13 leave it like that, it will look like the official New Year's Eve.

14 MS. KUO: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. And when I say "New Year's Eve," I'm referring to 13th of January

16 of 1993; you understand that?

17 A. I was referring to the 13 January 1993. This is what we celebrate

18 as the Orthodox New Year.

19 Q. Whenever I say "New Year's Eve," that's what I also mean, just so

20 there's no confusion on the record.

21 Now, you remember that -- it sounds like, from your description,

22 that you remember that evening very well; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You remember who was in your cafe and what they were doing; right?

25 A. There were a lot of patrons. Mr. Kovac was there with this

Page 5891












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 5892

1 person, FWS-87.

2 Q. There was no reason for you to pay special attention to them;

3 right? I mean, they were acting, according to you, just like everyone

4 else; normal.

5 A. I paid attention because of one thing. This young woman was

6 there, and I paid attention so that nobody would bother them, so I did pay

7 extra attention to that couple.

8 Q. You knew that the other girl whom you saw was a Muslim, right; the

9 first incident when Jagos Kostic, Radomir Kovac, 87, and the other girl

10 were there, that other girl is also Muslim. You knew that; right?

11 A. I learnt that, that she was a Muslim, yes.

12 Q. By the time of New Year's Eve, you knew that that girl was Muslim;

13 right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And yet in your statement to the investigator in April of this

16 year, you stated, "Now I cannot remember whether the shorter one," meaning

17 the shorter girl, the one that was not 87, "I cannot now remember whether

18 she was in Raso's company at my cafe when celebrating New Year 1993." So

19 you weren't paying attention, were you, to this other Muslim girl, whether

20 she was there or not, were you?

21 A. I think she was not there for the New Year's Eve.

22 Q. But you stated in your statement you cannot now remember. Are you

23 saying now you remember very well that she was not there?

24 A. I think that she did not come back to my cafe after December,

25 while the other one did come, the one whom Kovac introduced as his

Page 5893

1 girlfriend. But the other one did not come after December.

2 Q. So the 15 or 20 times that you're describing when you saw the

3 girls in your cafe, was that before this New Year's celebration, or are

4 you talking about times when only one girl came?

5 A. I'm referring to overall, both of these girls and their coming to

6 the cafe.

7 Q. I'm a little bit confused. You're saying that the girl who was

8 not introduced as Kovac's girlfriend stopped coming to your cafe at the

9 end of December 1992? Did I get that right?

10 A. He kept coming until the end of December. I saw her through the

11 end of December in my cafe.

12 Q. And after December, you did continue to see girl 87, the one that

13 was -- you said was introduced as Kovac's girlfriend, after December 1992;

14 right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. My question to you is: When she came after December 1992, did she

17 come by herself to your cafe?

18 A. She would come by by herself or with Kovac.

19 Q. You don't know -- you weren't in your cafe all the time during

20 this -- these months, were you?

21 A. I live -- my residence is right above my cafe, so I'm around all

22 the time.

23 Q. But there is a lot about the comings and goings of your patrons

24 that you don't know, that you can't actually tell us about; right?

25 A. People come and go to any such establishment. One would have to

Page 5894

1 be almost like a computer in order to register it all.

2 Q. You're not keeping track of people coming and going, are you?

3 A. Of course not.

4 Q. And anyway, it was your sister who was running the cafe during the

5 whole time of the war; isn't that right? Not you; it was your sister.

6 A. She was there around with me.

7 Q. In your statement of April, you stated, "My sister could tell you

8 better, who was anyway running my cafe during the whole time of the war."

9 Isn't that right?

10 A. She was there. The establishment is in my name, but I authorised

11 her when I was not around that she substitute for me.

12 MS. KUO: No further questions.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination, Mr. Kolesar?

14 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Witness, for giving evidence to

16 the Trial Chamber. You are free now. You may go.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness. Please make the solemn

20 declaration.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

22 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, please sit down.

Page 5895

1 A. Thank you.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Kolesar.

3 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Examined by Mr. Kolesar:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

6 A. Good morning, sir.

7 Q. I would like to inform you that the Trial Chamber has granted your

8 request for the protection of your identity, and your face will not be

9 seen on the screen, and we will not use your full name when addressing you

10 but initials which are written on a piece of paper which I'm going to give

11 you with the help of the usher.

12 I would also like to ask you to pause when I ask a question before

13 giving an answer so that the interpreters could interpret, and I would

14 please like you to talk slowly so that it can be interpreted.

15 Did you understand what I have just requested?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Can the usher please lay this

18 document before the witness, and I have provided a sufficient number of

19 copies for everyone in the courtroom.

20 Q. Will you please look at the piece of the paper. There is a first

21 name, last name, and a nickname there. Are they yours?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. There is also a date there. Is that your date of birth?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And lastly, there is a place. Is this your place of birth?

Page 5896












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 5897

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. As I said, we will not use your full name, but we will use the

3 pseudonym which is DO. In case you need to mention any of the names

4 listed below, please do not use their full names because they, too, are

5 protected witnesses, but please use the initials that have been designated

6 for them.

7 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Now that we're done with this

8 preliminaries, I would like to tender this into evidence under seal,

9 please.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number.

11 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is D165, Defence Exhibit 165,

12 tendered under seal.

13 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Tell me, please, what is your educational background?

15 A. I completed secondary school for metal workers.

16 Q. What did you do before the war, during the war, and what are you

17 doing now?

18 A. Before the war, I was a metal worker; during the war, I was in the

19 army of the Republika Srpska; and after the war, I went back to my former

20 occupation.

21 Q. Throughout that period, before the war and during the war and now,

22 where were you living?

23 A. I lived throughout in the territory of Foca municipality, before

24 the war, during the war, and now.

25 Q. Do you know a person called Radomir Kovac?

Page 5898

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Will you look around the courtroom and see whether among those

3 present you can recognise Radomir Kovac?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Will you please tell us which one he is.

6 A. He is the fourth to the right.

7 Q. You mean from the door, the door you walked through when you

8 entered the courtroom?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Can it be noted for the record that

11 the witness has identified the accused, Radomir Kovac.

12 Q. How long have the two of you known each other?

13 A. We've known each other since our early childhood.

14 Q. How close were you? Were you friends? Did you socialise?

15 A. Yes, yes. We were very close friends.

16 Q. How did you address him, and how -- his relatives and friends and

17 acquaintances, how did they call him?

18 A. We all called him Raso. That was his nickname.

19 Q. Did he have another nickname called Klanfa?

20 A. He got that one later, I think, after secondary school.

21 Q. Do you know what was the immediate cause?

22 A. Because he had a special style of diving into the water which was

23 reminiscent of this object that we call a klanfa.

24 Q. In view of the closeness of relationships between the two of you,

25 what was he like as a young man? How did he behave? What was he like as

Page 5899

1 a student? How did he treat his friends, his acquaintances, people who

2 were his senior and those younger than he?

3 A. He was always cheerful, smiling. He was communicative. As a

4 student, he was an excellent student. He competed in various subjects at

5 the level of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. He took part in various

6 competitions.

7 Q. Did his behaviour change during the war? Did he continue to be

8 gay, cheerful, or was ready to crack a joke and so on?

9 A. No. His behaviour didn't change at all during the war. He

10 continued to be the same person.

11 Q. Tell me, when the war broke out, what did you do, and do you know

12 what Kovac did?

13 A. Very soon after the outbreak of the war, we were engaged in the

14 Territorial Defence and were members of units of the Territorial Defence

15 at the time. Both Raso and I reported to the Territorial Defence and were

16 given assignments.

17 Q. Did you get uniforms?

18 A. Yes, we did.

19 Q. What kind of uniform?

20 A. These were old uniforms from the 1950s, olive-grey in colour.

21 Very old uniforms.

22 Q. And later on, did you wear those uniforms all the time?

23 A. No, no. Later, three or four months later, we received camouflage

24 uniforms.

25 Q. You said you received the uniforms. You mean you and Kovac?

Page 5900

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So Kovac wore the same uniform as you at the beginning and later?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. At first it was olive-grey and later camouflage?

5 A. Yes. At first we all wore SMB uniforms, but these old uniforms

6 became torn very quickly. And anyway, there weren't any other uniforms

7 available, so everyone got these olive-grey uniforms at first.

8 Q. Tell me, please: Were there any rank insignia on Kovac's uniform?

9 A. No. There were no insignia on Kovac's uniform. Kovac was an

10 ordinary foot soldier, like myself.

11 Q. Throughout?

12 A. Yes, throughout.

13 Q. Did he carry a pistol or a knife in his belt when he wore a

14 uniform?

15 A. As far as I can remember, no. There was no need to carry a

16 knife. We were not issued knives. And I didn't notice that he had a

17 pistol. Anyway, he didn't wear it at his belt.

18 Q. So you're claiming that he was not the deputy commander but that

19 he was a regular foot soldier?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know the name of the unit of which Radomir Kovac was a

22 member?

23 A. It was called SO Dragan Nikolic.

24 Q. Was that a military formation or a police formation?

25 A. A purely military formation. The police units could easily be

Page 5901












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 5902

1 distinguished by their insignia, white belt, and a patch on their sleeve

2 indicating military police.

3 Q. This SO, or Independent Detachment Dragan Nikolic, was it a

4 component part of a larger unit?

5 A. It was a component part of the tactical group of the army of

6 Republika Srpska, the tactical group for Foca. At first it was part of

7 the Territorial Defence and then later a part of the tactical group for

8 Foca.

9 Q. When did you join that unit?

10 A. Sometime in August I was reassigned to that unit.

11 Q. Though the reasons are not usually given, do you know the reason

12 for this assignment?

13 A. Because I am a qualified metal worker, and in the former army of

14 Yugoslavia I worked in weapons depots as a maintenance person for

15 weapons. So I was familiar with infantry weapons and I could do minor

16 repairs on the spot, so I was drafted as a member of the technical staff.

17 Q. Could you tell us, on condition that that does not cause any risk

18 to your security, how many soldiers did that unit number, and roughly the

19 age group that they belonged to.

20 A. Some 100 persons passed through this unit, but there were never

21 more than 50 on the front. These were mostly younger men.

22 Q. The same question, or rather under the same caveat of no risks to

23 your security, could you tell us who was the commander of your unit?

24 A. For security reasons, I cannot give you the name of the commander,

25 but if the Court insists, I can write it down on a piece of paper.

Page 5903

1 Q. I would like to insist that you write down that name.

2 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I'm not mistaken, I

3 think this is a protected witness. May I just check? Yes. The witness

4 is a protected witness. His pseudonym is DP2. So I would like this piece

5 of paper to be tendered into evidence as a Defence Exhibit.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Can you tell us where that order was made, DP2?

7 We've got DP. Where was DP2 assigned as a -- I just want a

8 cross-reference, that's all.

9 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Witnesses under DP consist of

10 several persons who were protected before the testimony of the accused

11 Kunarac by a decision of the Chamber. I'm sorry, I really don't have that

12 decision in front of me right now.

13 JUDGE HUNT: I have it now. Thank you. It's Exhibit 242.

14 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] From the 28th of April.

15 Q. Another question linked to the commander. Was he the commander

16 throughout the time you were a member of that unit?

17 A. Yes. While I was in the unit, he was the commander.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Do we have the number?

19 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, actually. Sorry.

20 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document will be tendered as

21 a Defence Exhibit, and the number is D166 and it is tendered under seal.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

23 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Do you want me to repeat the question?

25 A. No, there's no need. While I was in the unit, he was the

Page 5904

1 commander throughout. But he was not at the beginning, but then I wasn't

2 in the unit.

3 Q. No, but my question was while you were in the unit.

4 A. Yes, while I was in the unit he was the commander.

5 Q. For that same period of time, who was the deputy commander, if

6 there was any such person?

7 A. Yes, of course there was a deputy commander. The deputy commander

8 was a certain Mitar.

9 Q. Do you know the surname?

10 A. Yes. Mitar Filipovic.

11 Q. Was that unit perhaps called Cosa's Guards?

12 A. No, it was never called Cosa's Guards.

13 Q. But its name was an independent detachment, but from whom did he

14 get orders or instructions for combat operations and everything else?

15 A. It came under the direct responsibility of the Foca Tactical Group

16 and it received orders directly from the Foca Tactical Group, that is,

17 from the main command.

18 Q. During the day we heard a witness who exists on your list with the

19 initials DV. Was this person a member of your detachment or was this

20 person assigned to you only occasionally to carry out certain tasks within

21 her speciality?

22 A. She was not a regular member of the unit, but she was attached to

23 us when there were any large-scale tasks. It depended on the nature of

24 the task. Though we had been trained to extend first aid to ourselves,

25 there were quite a number of medical persons in the unit.

Page 5905

1 Q. Do you know a person known as Zelja, the nickname Zelja?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Was he a member of this detachment?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you know Zoran Vukovic?

6 A. I do know Zoran Vukovic.

7 Q. Was he a member of this detachment?

8 A. Yes, he was. He was a member of the detachment.

9 Q. You were going to add something.

10 A. He was a driver, because he's a professional driver. He was by

11 occupation a driver in a company before the war, and we had heavy-duty

12 vehicles, and he was qualified to drive them.

13 Q. Did Kovac have a brother?

14 A. Yes, he did. His name was Micko -- or rather, that was his

15 nickname.

16 Q. Was he older or younger than he?

17 A. He was older than Radomir.

18 Q. What was his occupation before the war?

19 A. Before the war, he was a taxi driver.

20 Q. What I meant was, was he a member of this detachment as well?

21 A. Well, he was, though when I joined he wasn't there anymore. He

22 had committed suicide before I joined.

23 Q. Do you know why?

24 A. I heard -- the rumour in town was that he participated somewhere

25 in the liquidation of a family on the territory of Montenegro, and he

Page 5906












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 5907

1 couldn't bear the tension any longer, and he killed himself. That was the

2 official story.

3 Q. Do you perhaps know when this occurred?

4 A. In any case, before I joined, which means before August. Maybe it

5 was in the month of July. I never wanted to ask Raso much about that

6 because, after all, it was his brother and it was a delicate issue.

7 Q. Did you know him?

8 A. Yes, of course.

9 Q. Did the two of them look alike?

10 A. Yes. At first glance, people who didn't know them well could

11 easily confuse them. They were brothers. Of course, I distinguished the

12 two.

13 Q. How long did you stay in the unit?

14 A. I stayed in the unit until 1994 when, again, I got new orders and

15 was reassigned. Perhaps in August.

16 Q. When you were together in that unit, you said you were close, but

17 did you get even closer? Did you confide in one another?

18 A. Yes. We became even closer because conditions were such that we

19 were very frequently right next to one another on the front. We shared

20 everything we had, what little food we had.

21 Q. Did you confide in each other about girlfriends?

22 A. Yes, we talked about those things, too, normally. Sometimes we

23 had time for conversations of that kind.

24 Q. Did he tell you at that time about a particular girl?

25 A. Yes. I noticed on him that when he started talking about a girl

Page 5908

1 he had met, I could see that he had quite deep feelings for her. I didn't

2 want to probe too much. He confided in me of his own accord. He said he

3 had met a girl, and that he would introduce me to her later.

4 Q. Do you remember when that was?

5 A. When he told me he had met this girl, this must have been sometime

6 in November, and we met later on in December. Maybe mid-November, end of

7 November when he talked about her, and we met later.

8 Q. When he confided in you that he had a girlfriend in mid-November,

9 did he tell you her name and ethnicity?

10 A. Yes, she told me -- he told me her name and that she was a Muslim

11 by ethnicity.

12 Q. Does her name figure on this list you have in front of you?

13 A. Yes, under the pseudonym 87, FWS-87.

14 Q. Since you were close and of similar age, did you give him any

15 advice when he told you about this, in view of the ethnicity of this girl

16 and the fact that she was a non-Serb?

17 A. Yes, we talked, and I did say if he had feelings for her, that

18 love knows no bounds, that it goes across ethnic boundaries; and that

19 whatever he decides about that, if necessary, I was ready to be a witness

20 at his wedding. Because I had already been a witness in two -- at two

21 mixed weddings, I wouldn't find it unusual should he decide to take such a

22 step.

23 Q. Those were difficult times in terms of food. You were short of

24 food in the army, even. Did you talk about the ways people found enough

25 food?

Page 5909

1 A. Yes, it was difficult. Sometimes when he managed to put aside a

2 can, a tin of something, and then -- or if his mother would prepare some

3 food for him, then the tin he had left aside on the front he could take to

4 his girlfriend. And also an aunt helped him, an aunt called (redacted)

5 who loved him dearly, and she was able to give him a kilogram of

6 cheese, a bit of milk, some potatoes.

7 Q. Could you please look at that list once again, that piece of

8 paper, and tell us whether you find the name of that woman on the list.

9 A. Yes. Her pseudonym is --

10 THE INTERPRETER: I'm afraid the interpreter didn't hear this

11 pseudonym.

12 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] The witness did mention a name, but

13 as the witness is protected, could that name be redacted from the

14 transcript, please, the mention of the name of this witness, because I

15 wasn't expecting this answer from the witness.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Was that DH?

17 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, it will be redacted, yes.

19 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 Q. When you spoke for the first time about this girl, did he tell you

21 what he felt for her and did he perhaps mention whether she was alone or

22 there was someone else with her?

23 A. As far as his feelings for her are concerned, I could tell by

24 looking at him, as I know him so well, I could tell that he was -- felt

25 deeply for her, and she told me -- he told me that she -- that he loved

Page 5910

1 her very much. And he also said that there was a girlfriend with her, and

2 that he couldn't separate the two, and that the two of them were together.

3 Q. Did you ask, or did he perhaps tell you, why the two of them were

4 in his apartment?

5 A. I didn't ask him about that. They were probably refugees.

6 Q. And he didn't tell you anything in particular about that either?

7 A. No, he didn't. Actually, he was sorry for them. It was dangerous

8 in those days for them to walk the streets. It was dangerous for Serb

9 girls, never mind Muslim and Croat girls, and he wanted to give them

10 shelter.

11 Q. So if I understand correctly, these were your own conclusions.

12 Did he tell you how come those girls were staying with him?

13 A. No, he didn't.

14 Q. Do you know whether, apart from those two girls, there were any

15 others in the apartment?

16 A. No, I do not know that there were any other girls there. I didn't

17 go to the apartment.

18 Q. Do you know where that apartment is situated?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. Will you tell us, please.

21 A. It is in a building that we down there call the Lepa Brena, or the

22 beautiful Brena. It's more or less the main street.

23 Q. Did you visit him in his apartment?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Never?

Page 5911












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 5912

1 A. Later, maybe when they had left, then I did go. A couple of times

2 I brought him things outside the door, and then I went to my own house.

3 So I didn't go in, I didn't have time to stay.

4 Q. Could you recognise that building?

5 A. Of course.

6 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Could I ask the usher for his

7 assistance to show the witness this photograph, please. I'm showing the

8 witness photograph marked as Defence Exhibit D38.

9 A. Yes, that is the building.

10 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown the

13 second photograph as well marked as Defence Exhibit D39.

14 A. Yes, that is the same building.

15 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Is that the entrance leading to Kovac's apartment?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You told us just now that, while the girls were there, you didn't

19 go to the apartment, but later. But do you know on which floor the

20 apartment is?

21 A. On the top floor, the fifth floor.

22 Q. Do you perhaps know how Kovac came to occupy that apartment? Did

23 he tell you?

24 A. I don't know. You couldn't enter an apartment without the

25 permission of a commission for refugee housing, so he must have had some

Page 5913

1 kind of a permission from that commission. Nobody could break into an

2 apartment, and he didn't break into it.

3 Q. Do you perhaps know, before Kovac moved in, who lived in that

4 apartment? Who did it belong to? Was it a Muslim or a Serb?

5 A. I really don't know. There were some abandoned Serb apartments.

6 At the time, I didn't know. Later on, I learnt that the previous tenant

7 was of Muslim ethnicity.

8 Q. Tell me, please: When did you see that young woman that Kovac

9 told you about as his girlfriend for the first time?

10 A. We met in a coffee bar where only light drinks were served and

11 there were billiard tables. This was in the month of December.

12 Q. And tell me, how did that happen?

13 A. Well, we agreed to meet there, and I said it was time for me to

14 meet this girl. And I came from my house and we met in the Leonardo

15 coffee bar, and that is where I met his girlfriend.

16 Q. Who did Kovac come with?

17 A. He came with that girl and her girlfriend.

18 Q. How did he introduce them?

19 A. He introduced them by name, the girl that was next to him, and I

20 do not recall the other young woman's name. She was shorter than this

21 one. And he introduced his girlfriend by name.

22 Q. I know it was a long time ago, but could you please describe

23 them? That would be good. But if not, never mind.

24 A. I do remember the young woman. She was attractive, with blue

25 eyes, light hair, light-coloured hair, not very long, straight cut, maybe

Page 5914

1 as far as her shoulders, quite slim.

2 Q. Do you remember where you sat?

3 A. Yes. We sat at the bar. That is where we had coffee. And we

4 were all there at the bar.

5 Q. How much time did you spend in that coffee bar?

6 A. Well, perhaps an hour or two, on the outside.

7 Q. And what did you do during that time?

8 A. Well, we were joking a bit, playing pool, drinking coffee,

9 laughing.

10 Q. Did you leave the coffee bar together -- you, Kovac, and the

11 girls -- or did you do it some other way?

12 A. We did not leave together.

13 Q. How did you leave the cafe?

14 A. First Kovac left.

15 Q. Alone or with the girls?

16 A. With the girls. He went home.

17 Q. What kind of a mood were the girls in?

18 A. They were very obviously in a good mood. They did not differ in

19 any way from the other girls who were in the cafe, and there were quite a

20 few of them, because that was the only cafe that was open at the time, and

21 another one at another part of town. So during these war operations,

22 during the first year, that is the place where young people would meet.

23 Q. That evening when you were in the cafe, did you perhaps notice in

24 the cafe a person with the initials DV? Please take a look at that piece

25 of paper.

Page 5915

1 A. I'm not very good at this, but the person did stop by quite often.

2 Q. Did you notice that person that evening?

3 A. I don't remember. I don't remember. Possibly. At any rate, this

4 person was not sitting with us. Well, maybe this person was sitting with

5 us. I can't remember.

6 Q. Since you belong to the same unit, tell me: Do you know that

7 Kovac was wounded?

8 A. Yes, he was wounded.

9 Q. When, and could you describe the event for us a bit?

10 A. This was in the month of December.

11 Q. Yes?

12 A. In December 1992, while a big Muslim offensive was taking place in

13 our territory. Many civilians lost their lives at that time in the

14 village of Josanica, and also our lines moved for four kilometres to the

15 other side of the village. At that time, we were stationed in the area of

16 the village of Okoliste, which did not have any protection whatsoever.

17 That is where we were deployed by the Tactical Group Foca, by the command

18 directly.

19 Q. When did you arrive at your positions?

20 A. We arrived during the first days, or rather, the first day of the

21 attack. We were there during the war operations, during the Muslim

22 offensive. The next day, we were transferred to the area of Osanice,

23 where Kovac was wounded.

24 Q. I'm asking you when you were transferred because I was wondering

25 whether you knew what date, what month it was, when this happened.

Page 5916












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 5917

1 A. Well, the month was December, naturally.

2 Q. Do you know which day?

3 A. Well, I know when he was wounded. He was wounded on the 24th.

4 That is to say that we were transferred two days before that, like, the

5 22nd. Perhaps until the 22nd we were at Okoliste, and a day or two later

6 we were transferred to the left-hand side, to the other area of defence,

7 because the lines were moved by four kilometres. That's when he was

8 wounded, on the 24th.

9 Q. You were transferred from Okoliste on the 22nd?

10 A. Yes, on the 22nd.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please stop overlapping the

12 witness. We did not hear the question.

13 A. We arrived in Okoliste a few days earlier, perhaps.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Kolesar, there's a complaint then. You are not

15 complying with your own admonition for the witness. You must wait until

16 the translation of his answer has finished before you ask the question.

17 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I do apologise to the Trial Chamber

18 and to the interpreters.

19 Q. Could you describe to us in a bit more detail the wounding of the

20 accused Kovac.

21 A. Yes. We were in the area of Osanice. Rather, it's not a village;

22 it is a mountain pass which is actually a natural boundary between our

23 municipality and the municipality of Gorazde, and that is where the line

24 of delineation was. The Muslim units attacked then that part of the area

25 from Drina up to some village, Kovaci. I don't know exactly. This was a

Page 5918

1 span of four kilometres.

2 There were many dead on our side. We were told -- we received a

3 task to go to the other side to consolidate the line. Amidst the

4 fighting, Kovac was on my left, near an oak tree which seemed rather

5 wide. It was wide, but it was hollow. It was an old tree.

6 He was hit by a bullet through this oak tree. He cried out and

7 fell. I realised that he had been wounded. I waited for a few minutes,

8 because I was two or three metres away from him, at a maximum. I asked

9 him where he was hit. He said that it was not bad, that he was hit in the

10 leg. I asked him whether he could get out, whether he could crawl away to

11 some other place. He said that it hurt him.

12 I walked up to him and I dragged him out of that place, perhaps

13 two metres back. That is where he was taken by the medical people, and

14 they took him away from the front line, the line where there was direct

15 contact with enemy units.

16 Q. Do you know whether he was transferred to hospital immediately or

17 afterwards?

18 A. Well, he was not transferred immediately because there were some

19 complications. His wound was not a deadly wound; it wasn't a very serious

20 wound. There was a vehicle that came to help. It was an ambulance. The

21 Muslim soldiers had hit it with anti-armour guns, and that slowed down the

22 whole thing. Also, night was beginning to fall, so it was not safe to

23 take him away, because it was not certain who was where and which way he

24 could be taken. So he was transferred to hospital only the next day.

25 Q. Did I understand you correctly? You said that he was hit in the

Page 5919

1 leg?

2 A. Yes, yes, the lower part of his leg. His foot, rather.

3 Q. Do you know how long he was in hospital?

4 A. Well, he did not stay in hospital long. I remember he said to me

5 then that if I returned before him, that I should not tell (redacted)

6 anything, so that she would not worry.

7 Q. Please, please. I asked you to be careful. So could we please

8 have an intervention of the transcript? Could we have this name struck

9 from the record?

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Kolesar.

11 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. After he got out of hospital, how did he move about?

13 A. After he got out of hospital, he moved with crutches, of course.

14 He could not lean on that foot because it was swollen afterwards. The

15 bullet had passed through.

16 Q. Tell me, when did you first see him after he left hospital?

17 A. After he left the hospital, we -- actually, I was on leave. This

18 was already at the time of the New Year holidays and our Christmas as

19 well. I saw him perhaps on the second day of Christmas, that is, the 8th.

20 Q. The 8th of what?

21 A. The 8th of January, of course.

22 Q. Did you talk about something?

23 A. Yes, we did talk, and he told me that he had problems because he

24 had gone to his parents' for Christmas, and he told me that then some

25 lady's neighbours from his building called him and said that some soldier

Page 5920

1 had broken into the place where he lived. And he said to me that he then

2 came on crutches, and he found a soldier breaking down the door, and he

3 had problems with this soldier who was armed with a pistol. He managed to

4 overcome him and to take his pistol away from him.

5 Q. Did he tell you afterwards that he had some trouble in

6 headquarters because of that?

7 A. Yes, yes. He was asked to report to headquarters, which he

8 refused, saying that it was not necessary for them to ask him to report

9 but, rather, the soldier who tried to break into the apartment armed.

10 Q. I did not understand you, whether he reported to your commander or

11 whether he reported to headquarters.

12 A. He reported to -- he was asked to report to headquarters, to the

13 command of the tactical group.

14 Q. I omitted to ask you something else. You wrote down the name and

15 surname of your commander?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What was he like as a commander?

18 A. He was a good commander. He was very strict. He required the

19 troops to be disciplined. As a unit, this was the most disciplined unit

20 at the front line.

21 Q. Were there regular troop reviews?

22 A. Yes. Every morning, there were regular reviews of the troops and

23 also to see whether all the weapons were cleaned and in proper order, and

24 to see whether anything had happened in the meantime. He was a very

25 strict commander.

Page 5921

1 Q. Did he also mete out punishment?

2 A. Oh, yes, indeed, he would.

3 Q. All right, we'll go back to the event that Kovac told you about in

4 relation to Christmas Eve. He told you about that incident. He told you

5 about disarming that soldier. Was that a soldier or an officer?

6 A. Later on I found out it was an officer and that that is probably

7 why he was asked to report to headquarters, because had it been only a

8 soldier, perhaps they would not have asked him to report.

9 Q. In relation to this incident, did he tell you that he was afraid

10 for these girls, about what could happen to them?

11 A. Well, yes. At that time he started thinking about this because

12 the unit was increasingly out of town for longer spells. He started

13 thinking about this, how he could get the girls out. He did not feel sure

14 after this event that this would not be repeated. He was afraid that this

15 could be repeated when he would not be there, when he could not do

16 anything, so he already started thinking about that, how to transfer them

17 to a safe place.

18 Q. When did he return back to the unit after he was wounded?

19 A. He returned to the unit already in the month of February, after

20 having spent time on sick leave.

21 Q. How long did he stay at the front line?

22 A. Well, perhaps two weeks or something like that, two or three

23 weeks. Two weeks. Then he asked for leave from the commander so that he

24 could go and take care of the girls, so that he could try to transfer them

25 to a safe place because he had not been home for already two weeks, and he

Page 5922












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 5923

1 was very worried about them.

2 Q. Did he get this leave?

3 A. Yes, he did.

4 Q. When did he return to the front line?

5 A. Well, we returned after that, and later on we met up in town. I

6 don't know how much later. But soon he returned to the front line.

7 Actually, he returned to the front line, but he was obviously in a good

8 mood. He brought a bottle of brandy to treat us. I remember that well.

9 Q. What was that?

10 A. Well, it seems that then he had accomplished what he had wanted to

11 do, why he asked for a leave. He managed to find men who would transfer

12 these two girls to a safe place. Since it was not possible at all to

13 transfer them through our lines, during his stay in town he managed to

14 find some people who would transfer the girls to a safe place.

15 Q. Did he tell you who these people were?

16 A. Yes. He said that these were some Montenegrins who were freely

17 moving about town who were not engaged in our units.

18 Q. I'm going to ask you, why didn't he do it himself? Why didn't he

19 take them out to Montenegro? Why did he entrust this task to someone

20 else?

21 A. He could not have done that. He would have had to ask the command

22 for permission to leave the theatre of war operations. And there were

23 rigorous controls on the border with Montenegro. There were several

24 checkpoints and controls, and one had to have different permits and

25 certificates. It was easy, apparently, for these Montenegrins to move

Page 5924

1 about. They had channels of their own. So he entrusted them to them. Of

2 course, it involved a compensation.

3 Q. Tell me, while you were in this unit, were there any cases that

4 some soldiers would get permission to go to Montenegro legally, with the

5 permission of the commander?

6 A. There were such cases, although people from rapid deployment units

7 found it very difficult to obtain permission. People who were in work

8 duty units, not exactly combat units, found it easier to get permission

9 rather than people who were actually at the front line.

10 Q. I asked you specifically whether any of the soldiers of the

11 independent detachment Dragan Nikolic received permission from your

12 commander to go to Montenegro.

13 A. At that time, or generally speaking?

14 Q. At that time.

15 A. I do not recall.

16 Q. Did you and Kovac talk about the departure of these girls? Did

17 they receive approval, permission from the authorities of Republika Srpska

18 to leave?

19 A. Yes, they had to receive this kind of permission from the

20 authorities of Republika Srpska.

21 Q. Did they have this kind of permission?

22 A. Yes, they certainly had to have it; otherwise, they could not have

23 left.

24 Q. You mentioned a few minutes ago that these Montenegrins did this

25 for compensation?

Page 5925

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What were you referring to?

3 A. They had to be paid for this kind of service. Of course, they

4 asked for the payment to be made per person.

5 Q. Do you know how much, and do you know how come he had the money?

6 A. Raso told me that they asked for 200 to 300 Deutschemark per

7 person. It seems that they were involved in such transfers otherwise as

8 well. He did not have the money. He didn't have cash. He had to sell

9 some things from his house in order to obtain that money.

10 Q. Do you remember what things he had to sell?

11 A. Yes. This was a TV set and some kind of ski equipment, ski boots,

12 shoes, something like that.

13 Q. After this event when he told you that he managed to get these two

14 girls to Montenegro, did the two of you ever discuss the girls again after

15 that?

16 A. Yes, yes. He told me on one occasion very happily that he had

17 received a letter from one of them.

18 Q. Did he show you that letter?

19 A. I did not insist on that, that he show me the letter. He told me.

20 He told me what the letter said.

21 Q. What did he tell you?

22 A. He said that they sent him a letter and that they were employed in

23 a cafe in Montenegro, that they were thanking him a lot for everything

24 that he had done for them, that he had saved them, and that they were very

25 grateful to him.

Page 5926

1 And he also told me that they drew a heart at the end of the

2 letter, and that they wrote their names on it and his name, too; and that

3 they would never forget that, this service, the fact that he saved them.

4 Q. Bearing in mind what Kovac told you and bearing in mind what you

5 saw in view of the relationship between him and that girl, what can you

6 conclude on that basis? What kind of relationship did they have?

7 A. I think that they were very close, that it was a very close

8 relationship. I can say quite freely that he was in love with her, and

9 she was in love with him, too. One could see it by the looks they

10 exchanged and the way they talked to one another.

11 Q. My last question, since you've known each other since childhood,

12 and since you socialised intensively as young men and boys, can you

13 believe that Kovac would have been capable of raping someone?

14 A. No, no, no. He was never rough with girls, even when he was very

15 young, he was a student, a young boy.

16 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this was my last

17 question.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic, any questions?

19 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, thank you.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination by the Prosecution.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

22 Cross-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

23 Q. Witness, you have described to us that when the war start, when

24 you were in this -- when the war started, you received uniforms, and I

25 would like to know from you what weapons did you receive?

Page 5927












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 5928

1 A. I said that we got old SMB uniforms. That is an abbreviation for

2 olive-grey. The weapons we received then were some old Thompsons from the

3 aid that was received from Americans during the Second World War, and they

4 were from Territorial Defence warehouses, and uniforms were also from

5 Territorial Defence warehouses which were there from 'way back, for a

6 long, long time.

7 Q. Witness, I'm not so familiar with weapons. An old Thompson, is

8 that a rifle, an automatic rifle, or what is it?

9 A. It's not an automatic rifle. It is an automatic weapon that uses

10 pistol ammunition. It's an old type of weapon. Later, different weapons

11 were distributed.

12 Q. What weapons were when distributed?

13 A. Then semiautomatic rifles were distributed and automatic rifles.

14 Q. And when was that? At the same time as the uniforms, the new

15 uniforms?

16 A. Yes. Yes, approximately.

17 Q. And you received these old weapons first and later the better

18 ones, and Mr. Kovac as well; right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And also the other members of your unit; right?

21 A. That's right.

22 Q. When you received these new weapons and the new uniform, were you

23 already in the Dragan Nikolic Detachment?

24 A. When we received the new weapons and the new uniforms, I was

25 already transferred, so it was three months. It was the month of August.

Page 5929

1 That's when I got new weapons, in the Dragan Nikolic Unit. Until then, I

2 did not have new weapons.

3 Q. I would like to clarify something that was not really clear to me

4 when my colleague asked you. Why did you go to the Dragan Nikolic Unit?

5 Why were you transferred?

6 A. Well, I said already that I'm a metal worker by profession, and in

7 the Yugoslav People's Army during the 1980s, I worked on the conservation

8 and deconservation of weapons and the maintenance and repair of weapons.

9 So I was a person who was technically qualified to repair weapons,

10 personal weapons, and that is why I was transferred to the Dragan Nikolic

11 Unit.

12 Q. So after you were transferred to the Dragan Nikolic Unit, you did

13 these weapon repairs; is that what you say?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And before, what did you do before that?

16 A. Before that, I was in the units of the Territorial Defence.

17 Q. Yes, and what did you do there?

18 A. Well, with the other territorial people, we were preparing

19 defence, the lines of delineation. We were digging trenches, things like

20 that. Until then, there had not been any combat operations that we were

21 involved in, so in fact we were behind, we were sheltered.

22 Q. And when you joined the Dragan Nikolic Unit, was Mr. Kovac already

23 a member of the unit or did he join with you at the same time?

24 A. He was already a member of that unit, except that that unit during

25 the first period of time was also under the Territorial Defence. When he

Page 5930

1 received weapons, he also received old weapons and an old uniform. It was

2 only later that new uniforms and new equipment arrived. Because at that

3 time we were separated. We did not see each other. We did not

4 socialise. I was on the other side and I was involved in other tasks in a

5 different unit.

6 Q. So you do not know what the Dragan Nikolic Detachment did actually

7 before August 1992; right?

8 A. I don't understand. What they did? They took orders from the

9 command and they did what they were supposed to do.

10 Q. That is what you think, but you do not know that from your own

11 experience, because you, as you just said, were somewhere else; right?

12 A. Yes. Then I was not in the unit; I was in a different place. And

13 I cannot say what their assignments were at the time, the detachment of

14 Dragan Nikolic, that is. From the moment when I arrived in the unit, I

15 was aware of certain things.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, can we have a break?

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, of course, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll continue the proceedings at 1430 hours.

19 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.02 p.m.







Page 5931

1 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Good afternoon. We are continuing with

3 cross-examination of the witness by the Prosecution.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

6 A. Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Before the break, we spoke about the Dragan Nikolic unit. You do

8 not know their particular assignments before you joined them, right?

9 A. Not specifically.

10 Q. You gave out the name of the commander of this unit. This

11 commander also had a nickname, right?

12 A. Dragan Nikolic. I never met him in person. He was already -- he

13 had been killed before I arrived there.

14 Q. I mean the commander, the commander whose name you wrote down, the

15 commander who was the commander when you joined it, this commander had a

16 nickname, right?

17 A. Yes, he did have a nickname.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

19 give the witness a name list with additional names on it and additional

20 pseudonyms. It should be available to everybody already. It was

21 provided. It's the list starting with Dragan Nikolic unit, and the

22 Prosecution would like to enter it as another exhibit under seal.

23 Witness, you see the name next to DP2, and there is a nickname.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number first, please, counsel.

25 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is document 244, exhibit of

Page 5932

1 the Prosecution, and it will be tendered under seal.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.


4 Q. Witness, there is next to DP2, there is the name of this commander

5 and his nickname, right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And before you joined the unit, you would not know if this

8 particular Dragan Nikolic unit would be referred to with the same

9 nickname, right?

10 A. How do you mean? What do you mean? I don't understand that

11 question. Under what nickname?

12 Q. On the list you see first the name "Dragan Nikolic unit," and then

13 you see a different name. I don't want to name it because it makes --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Yes? So before you joined the unit, you would not be able to say

16 if they would also be like this?

17 A. Yes. No, they were not called this, by this other name. It was

18 the Dragan Nikolic unit.

19 Q. How would you know when you were not there? I'm only talking

20 about the time before you joined. Before you joined, you would not know

21 if they were referred to also as this nickname, right?

22 A. The commander of this unit, after the Dragan Nikolic was killed,

23 was DP2, and the unit was not called after him but after Dragan Nikolic.

24 That is, officially.

25 Q. Yes, that's officially. But unofficially, I mean unofficially you

Page 5933

1 would not know that, before August 1992, they sometimes were referred to

2 with this unofficial nickname-nickname, more or less?

3 A. If they were unofficially called that way before August, they

4 would have been called that same unofficial name after August. But it was

5 not so because this, this unit was not called after this person, DP2. It

6 was not his personal unit, so it couldn't have been named after him. The

7 unit had its own name, and -- but I don't know what it -- someone may have

8 referred to it as.

9 Q. You have given us the names of several members of this unit. I

10 would like to ask you about some other persons. What about Dragan

11 Djurovic, was he a member of the Dragan Nikolic unit?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What was his position? Was he an ordinary member, or had he some

14 authority?

15 A. In the beginning he was just a regular member, and then he was

16 also wounded at the very beginning of the war, and for a very long time he

17 was not with the unit.

18 Q. Yes. And did he later on rejoin it and get position?

19 A. Yes, but at that time I had already left the unit when he went

20 back there, and I was not with the unit at that time.

21 Q. But you know Mr. Djurovic, right?

22 A. I do know Mr. Djurovic. I know him.

23 Q. Would you please look at the list again, and there is a person

24 listed as DP1. Was that a member of the Dragan Nikolic unit?

25 A. During the time when I was there, he was not.

Page 5934

1 Q. Do you know if he ever was?

2 A. Later on, he occasionally joined it as a volunteer. If there were

3 some larger-scale combat operations, then he would go there.

4 Q. In which unit was he regularly, then, which other unit?

5 A. He was, he was not fit for the military service. He had a health

6 condition. In the former Yugoslavia he, did not do his military service,

7 so I don't believe that he had any assignment. It is possible that he

8 would go to the unit, to various units, on his own initiative, such as the

9 Dragan Nikolic unit.

10 Q. You mentioned that Mr. Zoran Vukovic also was a member, and he was

11 a driver. You mean Mr. Vukovic who is in the courtroom, right?

12 A. Yes, I do refer to that -- to this Zoran Vukovic.

13 Q. What vehicles did he drive?

14 A. It was a jeep-type vehicle, off-road vehicle, and occasionally

15 trucks, military trucks.

16 Q. Do you know him well?

17 A. I do know him, but before the war, we were not very close. I do

18 know him.

19 Q. So from your unit, from the unit, basically, you know him?

20 A. For the most part from the unit, but we did not socialise before

21 the war.

22 Q. Where did he live in Foca, do you know that, during the war?

23 A. With his mother, I believe.

24 Q. Jagos Kostic, was he also a member of the Dragan Nikolic unit?

25 A. Yes, he was.

Page 5935

1 Q. And Mr. Kovac used to spend time with all these persons I've

2 mentioned before, in the field and also in Foca town, right?

3 A. No, he did not socialise with everyone in Foca town. In the

4 field, on the front line, he may have been put in a position to socialise

5 with everyone because it was wartime; but in the town, you picked your own

6 company. Do you have anybody specific in mind?

7 Q. I would like to know, did he spend time with DP1, Zoran Vukovic,

8 Dragan Zelenovic, Jagos Kostic?

9 A. He did not socialise with Zelenovic very much. They were not

10 close friends at all. With Kostic, maybe he occasionally met with him.

11 Anyone else?

12 Q. Zoran Vukovic?

13 A. They did not have many things in common. They did not socialise

14 very much in the town.

15 Q. Do you know, if you please look at sheet again, do you know DP6?

16 A. Yes, I did meet this person DP6 at the front line.

17 Q. What was his position in the army?

18 A. I don't know. I believe that he was some kind of a commanding

19 officer.

20 Q. But he was not in the Dragan Nikolic Detachment?

21 A. No, he was not. It was some other unit. He definitely was not

22 with the Dragan Nikolic unit.

23 Q. But you had combined assignments in the field, the Dragan Nikolic

24 unit and the unit DP6 was in; right?

25 A. Joint? Maybe two kilometres apart. If there was a joint

Page 5936

1 operation, we could have been a couple of kilometres apart. But let's say

2 in that sense we were part of the same operation, but we were never mixed

3 together. We were part of the same tactical operations.

4 Q. Did you meet him occasionally in cafes in town?

5 A. Not really. He was a bit older. He did not frequent cafes. I

6 think he was mostly visiting his family, his relatives, which would have

7 been the outskirts of town and the surrounding villages, because he

8 himself was from a village.

9 Q. Did Mr. Kovac know him?

10 A. No. They were not present. There was a difference in age too,

11 and probably in their outlooks.

12 Q. You mentioned the suicide of the brother of Mr. Kovac and his

13 participation in what you call the liquidation of a family in Montenegro;

14 right?

15 A. I did not call it liquidation. That is what the newspaper stories

16 said. But this is what -- the word was that the late Micko could not

17 stand it anymore and that he committed suicide.

18 Q. The victims were the Klapo family from Foca, right, Muslims from

19 Foca? Isn't that what was reported?

20 A. I did not read official reports and I did not follow it very

21 closely, and I never talked about this with Kovac.

22 Q. From your own knowledge, what you read in the newspapers, was it a

23 Muslim family from Foca that was murdered and the brother was involved in

24 whatever way?

25 A. I did not say that I read in the newspaper. We heard these

Page 5937

1 stories, because those stories circulated. There were no newspapers at

2 the time. This was wartime. There were no newspapers, at least not in

3 our town, the newspapers that would publish this. There were no

4 newspapers at the time, so it was mostly word of mouth.

5 Q. Through word of mouth did you hear that it was a Muslim family

6 from Foca that was murdered?

7 A. Yes. Those were the stories.

8 Q. And wasn't there also the story that Mr. Radomir Kovac was

9 involved as well in this incident?

10 A. No. The rumours had it that the late Micko did this. No one in

11 town directly implicated Radomir in this.

12 Q. You told us that Mr. Kovac lived in the Brena Block in an

13 apartment; right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. He moved in this apartment in summer 1992, didn't he?

16 A. I don't know exactly when he moved in. There probably is a

17 document issued by the commission which allotted him this apartment, if it

18 does exist, but I don't know exactly when it was.

19 Q. Let me clarify a matter in regard of this apartment. In your

20 previous statement to the Defence investigator, you did not mention that

21 you ever went to this apartment; correct?

22 A. I said that I did not go to the apartment when the girls were

23 there and before that, but perhaps in 1994, 1995, 1996, much later, later

24 than the relevant events. Because I helped him move things out, but that

25 was later, not in that period when those events took place.

Page 5938

1 Q. Jagos Kostic lived in that same apartment, did he not?

2 A. I was not close with Jagos Kostic, because he was younger than I.

3 We did not socialise that much. But I am not aware of the fact that Jagos

4 Kostic lived in this apartment. I never talked to him about it either.

5 Q. You said that in November 1992, Mr. Kovac told you that he had

6 fallen in love with a Muslim girl; right? Middle or end of November, you

7 said.

8 A. Late November. Mid to -- actually, late, towards the end of

9 November.

10 Q. And you said that the two of you were friends and you confided,

11 even in most intimate matters; correct?

12 A. Yes. I said that, yes, intimate matters were also addressed, up

13 to a point, within certain limits of decorum. We did not go into every

14 single detail.

15 Q. You actually knew everything about each other; right?

16 A. No one knows everything about a person. I knew comparatively more

17 than some other persons. But everything? I don't think that everybody

18 knows everything about someone else.

19 Q. But that's exactly your words, your words quoted in the statement

20 you gave to the Defence investigator. I was just quoting your words. You

21 said, "And we knew everything about one another."

22 A. Yes, but "everything" is sort of an all-encompassing term. What

23 does it mean, "everything"? I knew more than others, more than many

24 others, but the very word "everything" is a bit too all-encompassing. I

25 knew certain intimate details of his life that other people did not know,

Page 5939

1 of course.

2 Q. But you claim that he did not tell you how he met his girlfriend

3 and you did not ask; is that your testimony?

4 A. He said that he had met her in the street and that -- at that time

5 it was already wartime and I guess they got in touch. He asked her what

6 she was doing there. And when he learned that they were Muslim, he

7 probably offered them protection, because at that time, to walk about town

8 was not easy even for the Serbian women, let alone Muslim, because the war

9 was going on in town.

10 Q. Where in the street did he meet them?

11 A. I did not ask him where, in what section he found them, in what

12 street he found them.

13 Q. Witness, it's the first time that you ever mention that he told

14 you he met the girls in the street. In your previous statement to the

15 Defence investigator, and also today, you said you did not know how he met

16 his girlfriend.

17 A. He probably found them walking in the street. I don't know where

18 else he could have found them, because at that time he was in town.

19 Q. Do I have to understand that it's your assumption that he met them

20 in the street; you just -- it's now something you thought about?

21 A. Of course. He couldn't have met them anywhere out of town. He

22 could have only met them in the street. I don't know where else.

23 Q. Witness, you claim that you talked in quite some details about the

24 food situation of the girls and who helped Mr. Kovac to feed the girls;

25 right? That's what you told us this morning, details about this.

Page 5940

1 A. Yes, I did tell you some details about it.

2 Q. Mr. Kovac was on good terms with the food -- with the unit's food

3 supply, or with the quartermaster, was he not?

4 A. Mr. Kovac was on no better terms with the quartermaster than

5 anyone else among us. There shouldn't have been any special privileges in

6 that regard.

7 Q. So he did not receive anything in addition from the quartermaster

8 to feed his girlfriend?

9 A. I'm not aware of that. I know how he collected food and who

10 assisted him in this from the family, but I don't know about his

11 relationship with the quartermaster.

12 Q. Did you learn that the girls were from Mjesaja, at least one of

13 them, and the other Miljevina?

14 A. I don't believe there was one from Miljevina. Trnovaca or a

15 certain part, I don't know how to explain it to you. Miljevina and

16 Mjesaja are two separate villages, and they have no points in common, the

17 two of them. If they were friends, they were probably from the same

18 village.

19 Q. Witness, I do not want you to draw assumptions from whatever

20 question is raised or whatever fact you hear, I just want to know, did you

21 learn that one of them was from Miljevina, and you said no, it was not;

22 and one of them was from Mjesaja, you did not know, right?

23 A. Mjesaja is a name for a group of villages. Mjesaja is not a

24 village; a group of villages.

25 Q. Did you hear that 87 was from Mjesaja, the Witness 87?

Page 5941

1 A. No, not Mjesaja.

2 Q. Did you hear that the girls were first kept in Partizan and later

3 in Karaman's House and raped there?

4 A. I don't know anything about that.

5 Q. But Mr. Kovac told you that this girl, 87, and the other girl

6 stayed with him in his apartment, right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And did you mention that Mr. Jagos Kostic was also there, being

9 the boyfriend, for instance, from the other girl?

10 A. I don't know whether he stayed there all the time or came

11 occasionally. He may have been the boyfriend of the other girl, but in

12 answer to your question, I don't know whether he stayed there all the

13 time.

14 Q. But you know that he stayed there and came, or is that also

15 something that's just an assumption now right on the spot?

16 A. That he came occasionally to the apartment.

17 Q. That you know?

18 A. I know that. Everyone knows that.

19 Q. "Everyone knows that." From whom? How? How does everybody know?

20 A. The same as the other question you asked me a moment ago.

21 Q. You mean Mr. Kovac told you?

22 A. When you asked me whether I knew everything about Mr. Kovac, it's

23 a game, a play on words, so I didn't quite understand your next question.

24 Q. Let me clarify, let me clarify. You know that Mr. Kostic also

25 came and used this apartment, either as a visitor or living there?

Page 5942

1 A. Whether I know that? I do, yes.

2 Q. And how do you know that? Who told you?

3 A. Mr. Kostic was also in that unit, and, of course, it was normal

4 among 30 or 40 men that we get talking, and that is how I learned that he,

5 too, had been in that apartment with this other girl of whom he said that

6 she was his girlfriend.

7 Q. Who else? Who else of the soldiers was in this apartment; do you

8 know that?

9 A. I don't know that. I didn't hear that any of the other soldiers

10 went there, except for that drunk one who came on the day after Christmas

11 Day.

12 Q. The drunk one, you said he was an officer. Do you know the name

13 of this drunk soldier?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Who was it? Is it someone from the list here or --

16 A. No. That man is not on this list.

17 Q. Who, then, is the man?

18 A. I think the man was later killed in combat after a certain period

19 of time.

20 Q. If he is dead, then you can tell us the name. There is no harm of

21 telling the name of a dead person.

22 A. I'm not quite sure. I think it was Cicmil; I don't remember his

23 first name. But he was an officer, I know that, but we didn't have any

24 close contact with him in our military operations.

25 Q. So Mr. --

Page 5943

1 A. And I didn't know him personally.

2 Q. So he was not a member of the Dragan Nikolic unit?

3 A. No, no. No, no. He was an officer in another unit, but he never

4 belonged to the Dragan Nikolic Detachment.

5 Q. And you heard from Mr. Kovac that this Mr. Cicmil tried to break

6 into the apartment or actually did, right?

7 A. Yes, I heard it from Mr. Kovac.

8 Q. You said that you first met the witness FWS-87 at the Cafe

9 Leonardo, and you said that it was in December, right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Let me clarify a matter which wasn't clear to me. Did I

12 understand correctly that you even went there on this occasion to meet the

13 witness?

14 A. No, no. I never went there. I was in the Leonard [sic] cafe. I

15 was in the coffee bar. I didn't go out to meet them.

16 Q. You misunderstood my question. Yes, you misunderstood my

17 question. When you went there on that occasion to the Cafe Leonardo, did

18 you go there particularly to meet Mr. Kovac with the girlfriend?

19 A. Yes. I wanted to meet the girl.

20 Q. That wasn't clear to me, and therefore I wanted to clarify it.

21 Cafe Leonardo, you said that is a place where the young people

22 meet -- met at that time in Foca, right?

23 A. Young and the soldiers, among others, yes, young people. Younger

24 men. Older people didn't go there.

25 Q. The soldiers of the Dragan Nikolic unit used to meet there when

Page 5944

1 they were off the field, right?

2 A. All the soldiers of the tactical group for Foca would come there,

3 not just the soldiers of the Dragan Nikolic. It was a large

4 establishment, larger than this courtroom, so a lot of people could go

5 there.

6 Q. So it was usually full of soldiers, then, in the evening, right?

7 A. It was not customary to wear a uniform off-duty in the evening, so

8 we mostly went in civilian clothes, and weapons were not allowed inside.

9 Q. And when you went to this place on that evening to meet Mr. Kovac

10 and the girls, you were in civilian clothing?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And Mr. Kovac, what did he wear?

13 A. He, too, was in civilian clothing.

14 Q. Did you come together with Mr. Kovac and the girls, or were you

15 already in the cafe when they arrived?

16 A. I've already said that I didn't come together with them.

17 Q. You were there first?

18 A. Yes, I arrived first.

19 Q. Can you describe -- you have already described the Witness 87.

20 Can you describe the other girl?

21 A. She was slightly darker coloured hair than the first one and a

22 little shorter. I didn't really look hard. She may have been a little

23 thinner, too. Brown eyes, I think, but I'm not sure. I didn't pay much

24 attention to the other young woman because I wanted to meet the first one

25 because he told me that he was in love with her.

Page 5945

1 Q. In your statement you gave to the investigator, you said about the

2 other girl, "She was more plump than 87." What do you mean by "plump"? I

3 understood it to be heavier, but now you say it's thinner.

4 A. She was smaller by a whole head, but I'm not so sure because I

5 only saw her once, and I wasn't really interested in learning more details

6 about her. She was standing behind her. I was to the right, next to

7 Witness 87.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Kolesar.

9 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could the witness not

10 be misled, because in his statement it says that another girl came who was

11 somewhat of smaller constitution than 87. It does not say that she was

12 plumper than the other one, as my learned friend has said.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we have only the translation

14 that we got from Mr. Kolesar, and here it says, I mean, it says, "She was

15 more plump." And I cannot, of course, check the B/C/S because I don't

16 speak it, but maybe Mr. Kolesar reads this little half sentence so that

17 here the translator in the courtroom can make it clear.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, maybe you can read the description of the other

19 girl as in the statement.

20 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] With pleasure, Your Honour. It is,

21 the sixth paragraph, and it starts, "On that occasion we were on leave,

22 and Raso and I had agreed to meet at the Leonardo. And I remember well

23 that Raso came with that girl, that he introduced her to me as 87, and

24 with him another girl came who was somewhat smaller than 87, but whose

25 name I do not remember."

Page 5946

1 That is what is stated in the original statement of this witness

2 in the Serbo-Croat language.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think that clarifies the matter.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Mr. Kolesar.


6 Q. Were you sitting at a table or were you standing at the bar?

7 A. I was standing next to the bar, at the bar.

8 Q. And Mr. Kovac and the two girls, were they also standing together

9 with you?

10 A. Mr. Kovac, for a brief while, walked around the tables. They

11 remained at the bar drinking coffee or a juice -- I can't remember exactly

12 -- and they were laughing, talking.

13 Q. And was there anybody else in the cafe that you knew well at that

14 time, that you remember being there?

15 A. People would come and go to that coffee bar in large numbers. I

16 really don't know if I could now mention someone in particular.

17 Q. What about Mr. Dragan Djurovic? Was he there on that evening?

18 A. I don't remember seeing Mr. Dragan Djurovic. It was a long time

19 ago. At least, he wasn't standing at the bar or anywhere close by while I

20 was there. I don't remember him being there at all.

21 Q. It's quite understandable that you do not recall who was in this

22 restaurant -- in this bar, and you also did not mention anybody in

23 particular in this -- in your previous statement. But when you were asked

24 today if the person DV was present, you said that you would not remember

25 and you said she did not sit at your table. But then you corrected

Page 5947

1 yourself and said, "Maybe she was sitting at the table." Now we hear that

2 you were not sitting at all. So what about DV?

3 A. I didn't say that. DV may have come in and gone out. I just

4 simply don't remember her. I wasn't sitting at a table at all; therefore,

5 she couldn't have been sitting with me at a table.

6 Q. You did not talk to her that evening, not that you recall; right?

7 DV, I mean. You did not talk to DV.

8 A. I don't remember talking to DV.

9 Q. Did you talk to the girls on that evening?

10 A. With FWS-87 we exchanged a few words perhaps, very insignificant

11 comments, not much of a conversation.

12 Q. And this was the only evening that you spent with the two girls in

13 Cafe Leonardo or at any other cafe; right?

14 A. The only evening. I didn't meet them again.

15 Q. You described to us in quite great details your conversation about

16 the incident with the drunken soldier on Christmas. How did you find out

17 who that person actually was?

18 A. Because Kovac had had some problems with the command, and they

19 summoned him to come and make a statement about that incident because he

20 had seized the weapon from an officer. Because after all, Kovac was an

21 ordinary soldier, and an officer is an officer. And it was on that

22 occasion that I learnt the name of this officer.

23 Q. So you heard it from Mr. Kovac?

24 A. From Mr. Kovac and from other people in town. It was known. It

25 was common knowledge.

Page 5948

1 Q. Was Mr. Kovac ever in the KP Dom, not as a soldier on duty, but

2 detained?

3 A. I do not remember that. While I was there, no.

4 Q. You told us that Mr. Kovac helped the girl 87 and this other girl

5 to leave Foca, and you told us a lot of details about how that went;

6 right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In your previous statement, you had even more details. You knew

9 that he sold his TV set, and brand Ambassador; right?

10 A. That's what I said, that he had sold his TV set and his skis, in

11 Court too.

12 Q. And you still remember that it was the TV set Ambassador that he

13 sold; right?

14 A. The brand was Ambassador. It was quite an old one. Such TV sets

15 were no longer in use, and that is why I remembered. Because I too had a

16 similar set, and I sold it and I bought myself a new one. I had an

17 identical one at home in my apartment.

18 Q. How much did you get for your TV set? Not 400 marks, did you?

19 A. No, of course not.

20 Q. Wasn't there some rumour that the girls had been killed?

21 A. I didn't hear any such rumours, because I knew what had happened

22 to them.

23 Q. You said that when the transfer of the girls had occurred,

24 Mr. Kovac was in a good mood and even celebrated this with brandy; right?

25 A. Yes. He was visibly glad and happy, and we all had a drink of

Page 5949

1 that brandy, whoever was there that moment. It is not customary for us to

2 drink alone, so he treated all of us.

3 Q. That means he was not really sad to lose his girlfriend; right?

4 A. He was sad and happy, and he told me that in a sense he was very

5 glad that these girls would go to safety, because he could no longer

6 guarantee their safety. And of course he was sad because a girl had left

7 whom he had fallen in love with, so his feelings were mixed.

8 Q. You said that Mr. Kovac told you about the letter that he received

9 from the girls; right?

10 A. Yes, I said that.

11 Q. You said that you did not see it, but he told you about the heart

12 being drawn on it; right?

13 A. Yes. He told me about the heart drawn on it and his name and

14 their names written inside that heart.

15 Q. In your previous statement to the investigator, you also referred

16 to this letter, and let me quote:

17 "I know that Raso, sometime early in April, told he received a

18 letter from the girl, 87, and he showed me that letter, and I remember it

19 was written on a sheet pulled out from notebook."

20 That sounds now quite different; right?

21 A. He told me that the letter had been written on a piece of paper

22 torn out of a notebook, and I just saw the envelope, actually. I wasn't

23 very specific about that on that occasion, but I can explain it now.

24 Q. But you said that, what I just quoted; you said that to the

25 investigator, right?

Page 5950

1 A. I didn't say that I read the letter and held it in my hands, that

2 I actually read the letter, but I did hold the envelope in my hand.

3 Q. This is not written here. I just have quoted to you from your

4 statement, and it says, "He showed me that letter and I remember it was

5 written on a sheet pulled out from notebook." That sounds different from

6 what you say today.

7 A. Yes, but I didn't read the letter.

8 Q. In your previous statement you also mentioned that Mr. Kovac told

9 you on a later point in time that the girl was in France or in Austria;

10 right?

11 A. I can't remember whether it was France or some other country, but

12 in any event, no longer in our part of the world. She had gone to a

13 foreign country. Whether it was France, I -- or some other country, I

14 don't know. I didn't inquire about any further details.

15 Q. But to the investigator you said France or Austria; right?

16 A. France or Austria or maybe Belgium. I just don't know exactly.

17 Q. But then why did you say to the investigator France or Austria?

18 That's the question.

19 A. I remember mentioning France and not really about Austria. Those

20 are foreign countries to me. Whether it was France or Austria or some

21 other country, it didn't make much difference to me.

22 Q. What do you remember what Mr. Kovac told you about where the girls

23 ended up? Do you recall anything at all?

24 A. I said I remember they had left and gone abroad, that they were

25 somewhere abroad. I didn't think that was so important, which particular

Page 5951

1 country. Maybe France, among others.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I have no further questions.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination, Mr. Kolesar?

4 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further

5 questions.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic, any?

7 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, we have no

8 questions for this witness.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prodanovic?

10 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. With your

11 leave, just a couple of questions.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]


14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prodanovic, the Trial Chamber is wondering what

16 it is that you want to do, because you didn't examine in chief. And do

17 you want to cross-examine the witness, or what type of questioning?

18 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, that is true,

19 but my learned friend the Prosecutor gave me an idea by her questions as

20 to what I should ask, and it has to do specifically with my client.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the Trial Chamber is of the view that if it's

23 examination-in-chief of whatever you want to clear with the witness, then

24 on condition that the Prosecution can have an opportunity to cross-examine

25 again.

Page 5952

1 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: You can go ahead, and then the Prosecution, if they

3 so wish, can cross-examine.

4 Examined by Mr. Prodanovic:

5 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. My first question is whether you know

6 Dragoljub Kunarac, known as Zaga?

7 A. Good afternoon. Yes, I do know Dragoljub Kunarac.

8 Q. Could you please look around the courtroom, and if you recognise

9 him, tell us where he is seated.

10 A. Just behind you, the second from the door.

11 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, may it be noted

12 that the witness has recognised the accused Kunarac.


14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. What was Dragoljub Kunarac's assignment? Was he a member of a

16 unit, as far as you know, if you know?

17 A. As far as I know, he was a scout attached to the tactical group

18 for Foca, and that is where I would meet him, in the field.

19 Q. Can I take it that he didn't have any independent, independent

20 unit?

21 A. No, he didn't have an independent unit. He was a scout, and

22 during larger-scale operations or combat activities, volunteers would

23 join. He was no commander of any sort. He was just a regular soldier,

24 and, depending on the assignment, other guys would come from different

25 units on a voluntary basis to join in these operations.

Page 5953

1 Q. You said he was a scout. Could you tell me what would that --

2 what duties he would have as a scout?

3 A. He had to go ahead of others to check whether there were any

4 minefields, ambushes, the normal duties of reconnoitring the terrain.

5 Q. And my last question, did you see him in the field?

6 A. Yes. We would meet during operations because he was a scout, so

7 it would be -- it's only normal that we would come across one another.

8 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your

9 Honour.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Does the Prosecution wish to cross-examine as a

11 result of what counsel has asked?

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

13 Cross-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

14 Q. Witness, you are an ordinary soldier, aren't you? You were,

15 sorry. You were an ordinary soldier of the Dragan Nikolic unit, right?

16 A. Yes. Yes, of the technical services.

17 Q. You were not in the command centre in Velecevo, were you?

18 A. I was not in the centre. I was assigned to the unit. I was

19 reassigned from my unit to this other unit because, in the field, a

20 servicing man was needed for small arms because a lot of the operations

21 took place in bad weather, rain and mud. So I had some spare parts, some

22 equipment, so I could repair some smaller snags.

23 Q. But you were never involved in the planning of attacks or in

24 shifting around soldiers, assigning soldiers, assigning tasks, right?

25 A. Well, I told you I was an ordinary soldier of the technical

Page 5954

1 services.

2 Q. So you would not know if the commander in Velecevo would give

3 assignments to groups of soldiers or units, right? You would only see

4 what happens around you yourself in the fields, right?

5 A. I could see things with my own eyes in the field, of course.

6 Could you be more specific in your question? I don't find it very clear.

7 Q. Did you ever hear about the Independent Zaga Detachment?

8 A. I already told you that he did not have any detachment. He was an

9 ordinary scout. From time to time he would have volunteers assigned to

10 him so that they could reconnoitre in the area. He did not have any rank

11 insignia; he did not have any insignia at all. He was no commander.

12 Q. Witness, you asked me to be very precise in my questions, and I

13 would like to have a precise answer. Did you ever hear of the Independent

14 Zaga Detachment?

15 A. I never heard of the Independent Zaga Detachment, so-called Zaga.

16 Q. But when I tell you that this Independent Zaga Detachment existed,

17 and it was even addressed in a combat order and subordinated, according to

18 this combat order, to the commander in Velecevo, what would you say to

19 this?

20 A. I'm not aware of any such thing.

21 Q. So --

22 A. I did not have any contact with the commander at Velecevo, and I

23 could not see any of their orders. Not even my own commander's orders,

24 let alone someone else's.

25 I do apologise. I could only meet the gentleman in the field

Page 5955

1 occasionally by chance, because it was a very large area.

2 Q. So then it's only your assumption that Mr. Kunarac was not a

3 commander, your assumption from what you saw when you saw him in the

4 field. You would not know his exact position, right? Especially not in

5 the command structure.

6 A. He did not have any position in the command structure because he

7 was not a commander. He did not have any insignia. He could not have

8 been a commander. He could not have been in the command structure.

9 Q. Can you tell me when you saw him in the field?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. On what occasion did you see him? Can you describe when you met

12 him and where?

13 A. Well, perhaps I saw him -- I would see him during the offensive

14 against the Serb village of Josanica, for instance. That's when I would

15 see him.

16 Q. When was that?

17 A. That was in the month of December, in mid-December.

18 Q. When did you meet him before December, on which battlefield?

19 A. Before December? I don't know that I saw him many times before

20 December, especially not somewhere in the war theatre. That's it, the

21 Foca war theatre. All of that was the war theatre in our municipality. I

22 did not see him in any other theatre of war because I left in 1994. I had

23 no further contacts with Kunarac in the field.

24 Until 1994, I saw him in the area of Josanica and in those parts.

25 This is a large mountain area.

Page 5956

1 Q. That is, you saw him only in December 1992 in the area of

2 Josanica, right?

3 A. Well, sometimes I would see him in town, too. Well, I can't

4 remember now specifically. At any rate, I knew the gentleman.

5 Q. That's not in question, that's not in question. But from your

6 experience with him in the battlefield, you only saw him in December 1992

7 in Josanica, right?

8 A. Well, I saw him in other places in the field, in the area of

9 Repetitor, Osanice. That is on the other side. I did not encounter him

10 during every single combat operation, but I would see him from time to

11 time, so I got to know him. I would see him.

12 Q. When was it that you saw him in Osanice, which month?

13 A. At Osanice, I saw him on one occasion in 1992, perhaps. At that

14 time I was not in the Dragan Nikolic unit yet. I belonged to another unit

15 in the municipality. The Territorial Defence, actually. We were brought

16 to the lines between our municipality and the municipality of Gorazde.

17 That's where we were supposed to dig our defence trenches, trenches for

18 defending our town. He was a scout, so naturally he had to come before

19 us.

20 At that time we were Territorial Defence men, so we were not

21 supposed to be in front. So that is probably the first time I saw him,

22 around that time.

23 Q. That was then in June, that was then in June 1992, right?

24 A. July, June, I can't remember now. Something like that. When we

25 took those positions, he had to come, according to the duty he had of

Page 5957

1 scout, to go and to see whether there were mines there. And it was only

2 later that the Territorial Defence came in to dig trenches.

3 Q. But you, when you speak of the Territorial Defence, the

4 tactical -- the Foca Tactical Group was established in June 1992, so it

5 must have been before that, right?

6 A. Maybe. June, July. For me it was the Territorial Defence, and

7 later the tactical group was established. Yes, perhaps in July, but I'm

8 not sure. These are affairs pertaining to the command. I didn't give

9 them much thought.

10 Q. But you only saw him very rarely, right, in the field,

11 Mr. Kunarac?

12 A. Rarely. A few times I saw him. It's not that I saw him that

13 often that I can say that I know him well. At any rate, I knew that he

14 was a scout and that that was his task, generally speaking, and I knew he

15 was an ordinary soldier.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No further questions.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prodanovic, any re-examination?

18 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Witness, for giving evidence to

20 this Tribunal. You are now free. You may leave the box.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Good afternoon, Witness. Please make the solemn

25 declaration.

Page 5958

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Please sit down.

6 Yes, Mr. Jovanovic. Yes, go ahead.

7 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I would

8 kindly -- Your Honour, these are the details of this witness, together

9 with his pseudonym, so that we could ...

10 Examined by Mr. Jovanovic:

11 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

12 A. Good afternoon.

13 Q. In front of you is a piece of paper on which there are some basic

14 details. Do these details correspond to the truth?

15 A. Yes, they do.

16 Q. Are these your details?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. If you look at the last line there, that is your pseudonym, the

19 one that's going to be used during your examination.

20 A. Yes, I understand that.

21 Q. The Trial Chamber has granted your request for protective

22 measures, so your face will not be shown and your name will not be

23 disclosed.

24 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Again I would like to ask the

25 usher to assist us so that we could give the witness a copy of his

Page 5959

1 statement.

2 Your Honour, I think that all of us have this statement. I

3 believe that it was provided in a timely fashion both to the Trial Chamber

4 and to the Prosecutor.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we also have the paper with the particulars of

6 the witness given a number, admitted into evidence, under seal, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The document with the particulars

8 of the witness will be entered as Exhibit number D167 and it will be

9 registered under seal.

10 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Witness, is this the statement that you gave to the investigator

12 in the Zoran Vukovic case?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Is that your signature?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, since the witness

17 gave an affirmative answer in relation to this statement, I would like to

18 have it admitted into evidence as a Defence Exhibit, please.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Jovanovic, you've probably noticed that every

21 other witness that's been called by the Defence has given their evidence

22 orally. Are you going to get the evidence -- are you going to get the

23 witness to give his evidence orally?

24 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I'm getting

25 ready to do that now.

Page 5960

1 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then why do we need the written document?

2 Either we have his evidence orally or we have it in writing. The usual

3 practice of this Tribunal is for the evidence to be given orally. Why do

4 you need the statement in as well?

5 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was just guided by

6 that part of the proceedings when the Prosecution witnesses were here,

7 when their statements were tendered and when they were examined

8 subsequently. If this is a problem of procedure, I shall withdraw my

9 proposal to have this document admitted into evidence and I shall examine

10 the witness here directly before the Tribunal. I did not understand this

11 to be a problem of procedure, indeed.

12 JUDGE HUNT: I think you'll find that every Prosecution witness

13 gave their evidence orally. Their statements got in only because the

14 Defence counsel tendered them, for what purpose has not yet been made

15 clear.

16 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there's no problem

17 whatsoever. I withdraw my request to have the statement that was

18 identified by the witness as his own admitted into evidence. Let it

19 perhaps be marked for identification purposes only but not admitted into

20 evidence. Thank you.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll have it marked for identification.

22 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document will be marked D168,

23 Defence Exhibit.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: That is not an exhibit. It's just marked for

25 identification only.

Page 5961

1 Yes, Mr. Jovanovic. Please go ahead.

2 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Witness, tell us, please: What do you do?

4 A. (redacted).

5 Q. (redacted)

6 A. (redacted)

7 Q. (redacted)

8 A. It was open before the war, in 1985, and it did not work for less

9 than a year during the war operations in 1992, of course. All such

10 establishments were closed, and I would only open the cafe for my friends,

11 a small circle of my friends. I personally did not do my military service

12 in the army, because I was not in the military.

13 Q. So you did not do your military service in the JNA?

14 A. No, no, because my eyesight is very poor. I even underwent

15 surgery before the war and later on, in 1995, 1996.

16 Q. So you were not an active participant in the war either?

17 A. No. No. I just had work duty within the civil defence.

18 Q. Do you know Zoran Vukovic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Please take a look at all these persons here. Do you recognise

21 among them a person whom you know as Zoran Vukovic?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. Can you say who that person is?

24 A. The last person on the right, next to the policeman.

25 Q. Viewed from which side?

Page 5962

1 A. Here, on the right, on my right.

2 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may we establish that

3 the witness did recognise the accused Zoran Vukovic.


5 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. How long have you and Zoran Vukovic known each other?

7 A. I've known him for at least 20 years. (redacted)

8 (redacted), and we would often see each other when he would come back

9 from work and when he would go to work, because I would open the cafe

10 earlier. And later, when we got to know each other better, he would help

11 me with the work at the restaurant. He would come after his work. I had

12 a grill also during the summer, when I had tables outdoors, and then he

13 would help out. Later on, during the war, also he continued, because I

14 was also engaged in the production and selling of ice cream. He was very

15 good at this and he really helped me a lot.

16 Q. Since you said that you've known him for a long time, can you tell

17 us something about his marital status, whether he's married, whether he

18 has any children, how many, et cetera?

19 A. Yes. While he still lived in my neighbourhood, I got to know his

20 wife and his children a bit more. I think that later he lived with his

21 mother, that he did not live with his wife. And in 1988, 1989, when he

22 worked at my place, we socialised a bit more. Then we talked about all

23 sorts of things.

24 Q. In the period just before the war and, generally speaking, during

25 this period during which you've known him, was Zoran Vukovic a person who

Page 5963

1 made any differences among people on any basis?

2 A. Yes, I understand. I can give you examples of -- I can give you

3 names. Perhaps he had more friends among our neighbours, the Muslims,

4 than among the Serbs. That would be the truth. And there were a lot of

5 people then who socialised with the -- with members of other groups. Now

6 we live in a town that has practically only one ethnic group, but at that

7 time he was such a likeable man. Everybody liked him, and girls and --

8 Q. I have to interrupt you at this point. After the war broke out,

9 do you know: Did Zoran Vukovic take part, active part, in the war?

10 A. Yes, yes. Like all others, he reported for the defence of towns,

11 so to speak, because at that time there was fighting in town. If he was

12 not among the first, he was there from the beginning. He was an active,

13 exemplary soldier. He was not any different from others. He was not away

14 from the front line, and I heard about that from others at the restaurant

15 as well.

16 Q. In the initial period, in the initial period of the armed

17 conflict, can you tell us something about this initial period of the armed

18 conflict? In that period, to the best of your knowledge, did the accused

19 Zoran Vukovic help anyone who was not of Serb ethnicity? Do you know

20 whether he helped anyone?

21 A. Yes. I mention that in my statement, that he helped Muslims a

22 lot, our neighbours and friends. He helped those he knew and those he did

23 not know, especially in the neighbourhood. I know specifically a few

24 families. If necessary, I can give their last names. Is that all right?

25 Q. We have the permission of the Trial Chamber --

Page 5964

1 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Or actually, Your Honours, I would

2 just like to draw your attention to one thing. In this statement also

3 several Muslim names are mentioned of entire families. Since we have

4 already received your approval, I think that there is no problem

5 whatsoever, that I can freely question the witness now and that he can

6 mention all these names. Not a single name is the name of a protected

7 witness. None of these names were used beforehand, and I think that he

8 can speak freely now.

9 Q. So please tell us the names of these families.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Jovanovic, yes. All those names that are

11 not protected can be mentioned during the proceedings, during the evidence

12 of this witness.

13 We've reached our time for breaking this afternoon. We'll

14 continue the proceedings tomorrow morning at 0930 hours, and the witness

15 will continue giving evidence in-chief.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.02 p.m., to

17 be reconvened on Wednesday, the 20th day of

18 September, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.