1 Wednesday, 8th October 1997

2 (11.45 am)

3 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated. Mr Registrar, please have

4 the accused brought in and have them sit in the order

5 that was arranged for them to sit.

6 (Accused brought in)

7 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated. I would like the accused to

8 be helped with their headsets. Please be seated. Do

9 you hear me? Does everybody hear? Does the Defence

10 hear, the accused, do they hear? If you hear, please be

11 seated.

12 Registrar, would you please give us the references

13 for this case?

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this is case IT-95-16-I, the

15 Prosecutor of the Tribunal against Zoran Kupreskic,

16 Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko Kupreskic, Vladimir Santic,

17 also known as "Vlado", Stipo Alilovic, also known as

18 "Brko", Drago Josipovic, Marinko Katava, Dragan Papic.

19 JUDGE JORDA: First I would like to identify the different

20 parties. Prosecutor, what are the appearances for the

21 Prosecution, please?

22 MR HARMON: Good morning, Mr President and your Honours,

23 good morning counsel. My name is Mark Harmon, I will be

24 representing the Prosecutor's Office this morning.

25 Assisting me will be Mr Gregory Kehoe.

1 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Sir, would you please give us your

2 name, what bar you are a member of and tell us, since

3 you are the only one here, tell us whether you are

4 representing all six of the accused.

5 MR PAVKOVIC: Your Honour, Mr President, your Honours, good

6 day, my name is Petar Pavkovic, I am an attorney from

7 Zagreb, I am a member of the Croatian Bar Association.

8 In your brief, you have the documents confirming my

9 statement. I am Defence counsel for the accused Zoran

10 Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic, Vladimir Santic, also known

11 as "Vlado", Drago Josipovic, Marinko Katava and Dragan

12 Papic.

13 JUDGE JORDA: You may be seated. I will now turn to the

14 accused in the order that the security officers and the

15 Registrar placed them and I would ask that when each one

16 of the names is called that each person would rise, tell

17 us his name, family and given names, and his current

18 residence, as well as place and date of birth. I will

19 start with Dragan Papic.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

21 JUDGE JORDA: Do you hear me?

22 MR PAPIC: Yes, I hear. My name is Dragan Papic, I was born

23 on 15th July 1967, in the village of Santici, a locality

24 near Vitez.

25 JUDGE JORDA: Your attorney is Mr Pavkovic, is that

1 correct?

2 MR PAPIC: Yes.

3 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, you may be seated. I would like to

4 call Mr Marinko Katava.

5 MR KATAVA: My name --

6 JUDGE JORDA: Tell us your name, both first and last, the

7 date and place of birth, and your current domicile.

8 MR KATAVA: My name is Marinko Katava, I was born on

9 18th November 1952 in Busovaca. I am living in Vitez.

10 The attorney representing me is Mr Petar Pavkovic.

11 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Please be seated. I now call the

12 gentleman next to you, Mr Drago Josipovic. Would you

13 confirm that for us, please? Tell us your name, date

14 and place of birth and where you now have domicile.

15 MR JOSIPOVIC: My name is Drago Josipovic, I was born on

16 14th February 1955 in Santici near Vitez, and I am a

17 permanent resident of Santici where I am living now.

18 The attorney representing me is Petar Pavkovic.

19 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, you may be seated. Mr Santic,

20 Vladimir?

21 MR SANTIC: My name is Vladimir Santic, I was born on

22 1st April 1958, in Donja Veceriska, in the municipality

23 of Vitez. My residence is in Vitez, Kinkresmir,

24 4th Street. The attorney representing me is Mr Petar

25 Pavkovic.

1 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, you may be seated. The man next to

2 you, who should be Mr Mirjan Kupreskic.

3 MR MIRJAN KUPRESKIC: My name is Mirjan Kupreskic, I was

4 born on 21st October 1963 in Vitez, I am now living in

5 Pirici, a village near Vitez, and Mr Petar Pavkovic is

6 my attorney.

7 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, you may be seated. Now I call

8 Mr Zoran Kupreskic.

9 MR ZORAN KUPRESKIC: My name is Zoran Kupreskic, I was born

10 on 23rd September 1958 in Vitez, I am now living in

11 Vitez and the gentleman representing me is Petar

12 Pavkovic.

13 JUDGE JORDA: You may be seated.

14 You are appearing for the first time before the

15 International Criminal Tribunal, with the Prosecution

16 being represented by Mr Kehoe and Mr Harmon, who drafted

17 an indictment which will be read to you in a few

18 moments, for you to understand what is going on. I must

19 remind you of the text from the Statute which the

20 Security Council drafted and which constituted our

21 Tribunal, that is Articles 20 and 21 and Rule 62, which

22 provide for what is to be done and give you certain

23 advantages which are the rights of the accused and will

24 explain what is going to happen at this hearing.

25 Article 20 of the Statute states that a Trial Chamber

1 shall have the indictment read, satisfy that the rights

2 of the accused are respected, confirm that the accused

3 understands the indictment and instruct the accused to

4 enter a plea.

5 In this same Statute, in Article 21, there are a

6 series of rights that are given for you, including the

7 right to be informed promptly, in a language which you

8 understand, in detail, of the nature and the cause of

9 the charge or charges brought against you.

10 As regards this hearing, this is covered by Rule

11 62 of the Rules, which state that the Trial Chamber

12 first will satisfy that the right of the accused to

13 counsel is respected, which is the case, by the fact

14 that we have Mr Pavkovic here; then reads or has the

15 indictment read to the accused, in a language they speak

16 and understand, which we will do in a few moments; and

17 then calls upon the accused to state whether they

18 understand the indictment, after which the accused are

19 called upon to enter a plea of guilty or not guilty on

20 each count in the indictment which has just been read

21 for them. Should the accused fail to do so, the Trial

22 Chamber will enter a plea of not guilty on his behalf.

23 In case of a plea of not guilty, he will instruct the

24 Registrar to set a date for trial. In case there is a

25 plea of guilty, instruct the Registrar to set a date for

1 the pre-sentencing hearing.

2 All of these formalities, which are very

3 important, both for you and for the work of the

4 Tribunal, govern what we will do. I now turn to your

5 Defence attorney and ask whether he was in a position to

6 give each of his clients a copy of the indictment in

7 their own language and I ask whether they have

8 understood the contents, even though we are going to

9 re-read it. Mr Pavkovic?

10 MR PAVKOVIC: Mr President, my clients have received the

11 indictment, they have read it, and understood the

12 charges against them.

13 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Thank you, please be seated.

14 I will now ask the Registrar to read the entire

15 indictment.

16 Registrar, would you please read the indictment

17 which was drafted by the Prosecutor at a date which you

18 will state to us. Go ahead.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Mr President, it is the indictment dated

20 2nd November 1995. The Prosecutor against Zoran

21 Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko Kupreskic, Vladimir

22 Santic, also known as "Vlado", Stipo Alilovic, also

23 known as "Brko", Drago Josipovic, Marinko Katava, Dragan

24 Papic.

25 Indictment. Richard J Goldstone, Prosecutor of

1 the International Criminal Tribunal for the former

2 Yugoslavia, pursuant to his authority under Article 18

3 of the Statute of the International Criminal Tribunal

4 for the former Yugoslavia (Tribunal Statute) alleges

5 that:

6 1. On 6 March 1992, the Republic of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina (BiH) declared its independence.

8 2. From at least 3 July 1992, the Croatian

9 community of Herceg-Bosna (HZ-BH) considered itself an

10 independent political entity inside the Republic of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12 3. From at least January 1993 until at least the

13 end of May 1993, the HZ-HB armed forces, known as the

14 Croatian Defence Council (HVO) were engaged in an

15 international armed conflict with the armed forces of

16 the government of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17 4. From the outset of hostilities in January

18 1993, the HVO systematically attacked villages chiefly

19 inhabited by Bosnian Muslims in the Lasva River Valley

20 Region in Central Bosnia-Herzegovina. These attacks

21 resulted in the death and wounding of numerous

22 civilians.

23 5. The persecution of Bosnian Muslim civilians

24 escalated in frequency throughout the early part of

25 1993, culminating in simultaneous attacks throughout the

1 Lasva Valley region on 16 April 1993.

2 6. On 16 April 1993, at approximately 5.30 am,

3 HVO forces attacked the town of Vitez and the nearby

4 villages of Donje Veceriska, Sivrino Selo, Santici,

5 Ahmici, Nadioci, Stari Bila, Gacice, Pirici and

6 Preocica. All the villages are within a 10 kilometre

7 radius from the village of Ahmici.

8 7. The pattern of attack was the same across the

9 area. The villages were first shelled with an

10 assortment of weaponry including mortars, rockets and

11 anti-aircraft guns. Groups of HVO soldiers then went

12 from house to house killing and wounding Muslim

13 civilians and finally burning houses, barns and

14 livestock. After the attacks subsided, large numbers of

15 civilians were detained. The offensive which lasted

16 several days was a highly co-ordinated military

17 operation involving hundreds of HVO troops.

18 8. After the villages were attacked, Bosnian

19 Muslim civilians were arrested and taken to various

20 detention centres. While imprisoned, the HVO brought

21 Bosnian Muslim male detainees to the frontlines to dig

22 trenches, subjecting those detainees to the cross fire

23 between the HVO and the BiH armies.

24 9. One of the villages where Bosnian Muslim

25 detainees were forced to dig trenches in the midst of

1 sniper fire was at Pirici, a small hamlet adjacent to

2 Ahmici, Vitez.

3 The accused.

4 10. Zoran Kupreskic, son of Anto and brother of

5 Mirjan, was born on 23 September 1958 in the village of

6 Pirici. He was an HVO soldier in the Ahmici area.

7 Before the war, he operated a business in Ahmici with

8 his cousin Vlatko Kupreskic.

9 11. Mirjan Kupreskic, son of Anto, was born on

10 21 October 1963 in the town of Vitez. With his brother

11 Zoran and cousin Vlatko Kupreskic, he was a HVO soldier

12 in Ahmici.

13 12. Vlatko Kupreskic, son of Franjo, was born on

14 1 January 1958 in the village of Pirici. He lived and

15 worked in Ahmici where he owned a business with his

16 cousin Zoran Kupreskic before the war. He and his

17 cousins, Zoran and Mirjan Kupreskic, were HVO soldiers.

18 13. Vladimir Santic also known as "Vlado" was

19 born on 1 April 1958 in Donja Veceriska. Prior to the

20 war he lived in Vitez and was a policeman by

21 profession. He was an HVO soldier in Vitez.

22 14. Stipo Alilovic also known as "Brko" was born

23 in Nadioci. He lived in Vitez and was an HVO soldier in

24 Vitez.

25 15. Drago Josipovic, son of Niko, was born on

1 14 February 1955 in Santici. Before the war, he was a

2 chemical worker by profession. He was an HVO soldier in

3 Santici.

4 16. Marinko Katava, a member of the HVO in

5 Vitez. He also lived in Vitez and his wife was a

6 pharmacist.

7 17. Dragan Papic was born in the village of

8 Santici on 15 July 1967. He lived in Ahmici, Vitez and

9 was an HVO soldier.

10 General allegations.

11 18. At all times relevant to this indictment, the

12 acts and omissions alleged in this indictment took place

13 during April 1993 in the Lasva River Valley Region in

14 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the territory of

15 the former Yugoslavia.

16 19. At all times relevant to this indictment, a

17 state of international armed conflict and partial

18 occupation existed in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina

19 in the territory of the former Yugoslavia.

20 20. All acts or omissions set forth herein as

21 grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of 1949 (grave

22 breaches) and recognised by Article 2 of the Tribunal

23 Statute occurred during that armed conflict and partial

24 occupation.

25 21. At all times relevant to this indictment, the

1 victims referred to in the charges contained herein were

2 persons protected by the Geneva Conventions of 1949.

3 22. At all times relevant to this indictment, the

4 accused were required to abide by the laws and customs

5 governing the conduct of war.

6 23. Each of the accused is individually

7 responsible for the crimes alleged against him in this

8 indictment, pursuant to Article 7(1) of the Tribunal

9 Statute. Individual criminal responsibility includes

10 committing, planning, instigating, ordering or otherwise

11 aiding and abetting in the planning, preparation or

12 execution of any crimes referred to in Articles 2 to 5

13 of the Tribunal Statute.

14 24. The general allegations contained in

15 paragraphs 1 through 9 and 18 through 23 are realleged

16 and incorporated into each of the charges set forth

17 below.

18 Charges.

19 25. When HVO forces attacked villages and towns

20 in the Lasva Valley Region on 16 April 1993, the village

21 of Ahmici experienced the most significant killing and

22 destruction. Located approximately 5 kilometres east of

23 Vitez, Ahmici had a population of approximately 466

24 inhabitants, with 356 being of Muslim ethnicity and 87

25 of Croat ethnicity prior to April 16 1993. After the

1 attack, there were no Bosnia Muslims still living in

2 Ahmici.

3 26. Using a similar pattern of attack used for

4 other villages, the HVO attack on Ahmici targeted

5 houses, stables, sheds and livestock owned by Muslim

6 civilians. The HVO first shelled Ahmici from a

7 distance, then groups of soldiers went from house to

8 house, attacking civilians and their properties using

9 flammable tracer rounds and explosives. Several houses

10 were destroyed by pouring inflammable liquid on the

11 outside or inside and setting it on fire. Every Muslim

12 owned house in Ahmici was burned, and many unarmed

13 Muslim civilians were deliberately and systematically

14 shot. At least 41 civilians were killed and numerous

15 others were wounded.

16 27. In the neighbourhood of Zume, in Ahmici,

17 witnesses observed approximately 100 HVO soldiers on

18 their way to the village, and ten minutes later on their

19 way back from the village. In the interim, numerous

20 houses in Zume were set on fire and a large proportion

21 of the Muslim inhabitants were killed.

22 28. Between 150 and 200 Muslim civilians sought

23 refuge in the house of a Muslim civilian in Gornji

24 Ahmici. When UNPROFOR forces of the British Battalion

25 came to the village at about 12.00 hours the HVO stopped

1 shooting, but the shooting immediately resumed when

2 British battalion left. The HVO forces then fired

3 directly at the house where the civilians were hiding,

4 both with an anti-aircraft gun and other artillery. At

5 about 20.00 hours, the 150 to 200 civilians were able to

6 evacuate the house and fled to the mosque in Vrhovine,

7 two kilometres north of Ahmici.

8 29. Numerous Bosnian Muslim civilians were

9 arrested and were taken to detention centres. The

10 detainees were told they were being held for exchange,

11 but also as hostages if the HVO was defeated by the BiH

12 armies on the frontlines. Many detainees were taken to

13 the frontlines near Ahmici, to the village of Pirici, to

14 dig protective trenches.

15 30. A minimum of 103 Muslim civilians were killed

16 in and around Ahmici. Of the 103 persons killed, 33

17 were women and children. All 176 Muslim houses in

18 Ahmici, along with the mosque, were destroyed.

19 Counts 1-2.

20 31. Between 16 April 1993 on or about until 25

21 April 1993, all of the accused were HVO soldiers who

22 participated in an unlawful attack against the civilian

23 population and individual citizens of the village of

24 Ahmici causing death and injury to that civilian

25 population and individual citizens and the total

1 destruction of the Muslim homes in the village.

2 By the foregoing acts and omissions the accused

3 individually and in concert with others committed the

4 following crimes:

5 Count 1: Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko

6 Kupreskic, Vladimir Santic, Stipo Alilovic, Drago

7 Josipovic, Marinko Katava and Dragan Papic participated

8 in the unlawful and wanton destruction of property not

9 justified by military necessity, a grave breach

10 recognised by Article 2(d) of the Tribunal Statute; and

11 Count 2: Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko

12 Kupreskic, Vlado Santic, Stipo Alilovic, Drago

13 Josipovic, Marinko Katava and Dragan Papic participated

14 in the deliberate attack on the civilian population and

15 the wanton destruction of a village, a violation of the

16 laws and customs of war recognised by Article 3 of the

17 Tribunal Statute.

18 Counts 3-8.

19 32. When the attack on Ahmici commenced in the

20 early morning hours of 16 April 1993, Sakib Ahmic was

21 residing with his son, Naser Ahmic, Naser's wife,

22 Zehrudina, and his two children Elvis (four years of

23 age) and Sejad (three months of age).

24 33. Armed with an automatic weapon, Zoran

25 Kupreskic, entered the house and shot and killed Naser

1 Ahmic. Zoran Kupreskic then shot and wounded Zehrudina.

2 34. When Mirjan Kupreskic entered the Ahmic

3 house, he poured flammable liquid onto the furniture to

4 set the house on fire. Gunfire was then directed toward

5 the two children, Elvis and Sejad Ahmic. When Sakib

6 Ahmic fled the burning residence, Zehrudina, who was

7 wounded, was still alive, but ultimately perished in the

8 fire.

9 35. Naser Ahmic, Zehrudina Ahmic, Elvis Ahmic and

10 Sejad Ahmic all died and Sakib Ahmic received burns over

11 his head, face and hands.

12 By the foregoing acts and omissions, the accused

13 individually and in concert with others committed the

14 following crimes:

15 Count 3: Zoran Kupreskic participated in the

16 wilful killing of Naser Ahmic, a grave breach,

17 recognised by Articles 2(a) of the Tribunal Statute;

18 Count 4: Zoran Kupreskic participated in the

19 murder of Naser Ahmic, a violation of the laws or

20 customs of war recognised by Article 3 of the Tribunal

21 Statute;

22 Count 5: Zoran Kupreskic and Mirjan Kupreskic

23 participated in the wilful killing of Zehrudina Ahmic,

24 Elvis Ahmic and Sejad Ahmic, a grave breach recognised

25 by Article 2(a) of the Tribunal Statute;

1 Count 6: Zoran Kupreskic and Mirjan Kupreskic

2 participated in the murder of Zehrudina Ahmic, Elvis

3 Ahmic and Sejad Ahmic, a violation of the laws or

4 customs of war recognised by Article 3 of the Tribunal

5 Statute;

6 Count 7: Zoran Kupreskic and Mirjan Kupreskic

7 participated in wilfully causing Sakib Ahmic great

8 suffering or serious injury to body or health, a grave

9 breach recognised by Article 2(c) of the Tribunal

10 Statute; and

11 Count 8: Zoran Kupreskic and Mirjan Kupreskic

12 participated in wilfully subjecting Sakib Ahmic to cruel

13 treatment, a violation of the laws or customs of war

14 recognised by Article 3 of the Tribunal's Statute.

15 Counts 9-12.

16 36: Prior to the 16 April attack, HVO soldiers

17 armed with automatic rifles congregated at the residence

18 of Vlatko Kupreskic in Ahmici. When the attack

19 commenced, HVO units departed from Vlatko Kupreskic's

20 residence. Other HVO soldiers shot at Bosnian Muslim

21 civilians from Vlatko's house throughout the attack.

22 37. As the shooting continued, members of the

23 Pezer family, who were Bosnian Muslims, gathered in

24 their shelter to hide from HVO soldiers. Shortly

25 thereafter, the Pezer family, along with other Bosnian

1 Muslims who had also taken refuge in the shelter,

2 decided to escape through the forest.

3 38. As the Pezer family ran toward the forest

4 with the other Bosnian Muslims, past Vlatko Kupreskic's

5 house, Vlatko Kupreskic and other HVO soldiers in the

6 house began to shoot at the group. Fata Pezer, the wife

7 of Ismail Pezer, was shot and killed while their

8 daughter Dzenana Pezer and another Bosnian Muslim

9 civilian were shot and wounded.

10 As a result of the foregoing acts and omissions,

11 the accused committed individually and in concert with

12 others committed the following crimes:

13 Count 9: Vlatko Kupreskic participated in the

14 wilful killing of Fata Pezer, a grave breach recognised

15 by Article 2(a) of the Tribunal Statute;

16 Count 10: Vlatko Kupreskic participated in the

17 murder of Fata Pezer, a violation of the laws and

18 customs of war recognised by Article 3 of the Tribunal

19 Statute;

20 Count 11: Vlatko Kupreskic participated in

21 wilfully causing Dzenana Pezer and a Bosnian Muslim

22 civilian great suffering or serious injury to body or

23 health, a grave breach recognised by Article 2(c) of the

24 Tribunal Statute;

25 Count 12: Vlatko Kupreskic subjected Dzenana Pezer

1 and a Bosnian Muslim civilian to cruel treatment, a

2 violation of the laws or customs of war, recognised by

3 Article 3 of the Tribunal Statute.

4 Counts 13-14.

5 39. In another part of Ahmici, the home of Musafer

6 and Suhreta Puscul was attacked by numerous HVO soldiers

7 while the family slept.

8 40. Several HVO soldiers who participated in the

9 attacks were neighbours of the Puscul family such as

10 Zeljko Livancic (deceased). Other HVO soldiers who

11 participated in the attack and were known to the Puscul

12 family include the following accused: Vladimir Santic,

13 Stipo Alilovic, Drago Josipovic and Marinko Katava.

14 41. After an unidentified HVO soldier ordered

15 Musafer Puscul and his family from their home, Zeljo

16 Livancic (deceased), Vladimir Santic, Drago Josipovic

17 and Marinko Katava, took Musafer Puscul behind a nearby

18 shed, and shot and killed him while Stipo Alilovic held

19 Mustafa's family at gunpoint.

20 42. Thereafter all of the HVO soldiers including

21 Vladimir Santic, the group's commander, went into the

22 Puscul's home, vandalised it, and set it ablaze. Upon

23 leaving the premises, HVO soldiers shot flammable

24 bullets into the residence, starting additional fires at

25 various locations in the home.

1 By the foregoing acts and omissions, the accused

2 individually and in concert with others committed the

3 following crimes:

4 Count 13: Vladimir Santic, Drago Josipovic,

5 Marinko Katava and Stipo Alilovic participated in the

6 wilful killing of Musafer Puscul, a grave breach

7 recognised by Article 2(a) of the Tribunal Statute;

8 Count 14: Vladimir Santic, Drago Josipovic,

9 Marinko Katava and Stipo Alilovic participated in the

10 murder of Musafer Puscul, a violation of the laws and

11 custom of war recognised by Article 3 of the Tribunal

12 Statute.

13 Counts 15-16.

14 43. After the Ahmici attack on 16 April, Bosnian

15 Muslims were taken into custody and were used as forced

16 labour. Specifically, they were compelled to dig

17 protective trenches at Pirici, a village adjacent to

18 Ahmici, by Dragan Papic and other HVO soldiers. While

19 digging trenches, the detainees were fed only one meal

20 per day and were frequently exposed to the cross fire

21 between the HVO and BiH armies. At least one Bosnian

22 Muslim male was shot by an unknown sniper while digging

23 trenches at Pirici.

24 By the following acts and omissions, the accused

25 individually and in concert with others committed the

1 following crimes:

2 Count 15: Dragan Papic participated in the

3 unlawful confinement of civilians, a grave breach

4 recognised by Article 2(g) of the Tribunal's Statute;

5 and

6 Count 16: Dragan Papic participated in outrages

7 upon the personal dignity of another, a violation of the

8 laws or customs of war recognised by Article 3 of the

9 Tribunal's Statute.

10 Counts 17-18.

11 44. The accused Dragan Papic and other HVO

12 soldiers continued to force Bosnian Muslim prisoners to

13 dig trenches from approximately 16 April 1993 until

14 approximately 25 April 1993.

15 45. During this period of time, one of the

16 Bosnian Muslim detainees named Jusuf Ibrakovic, also

17 known as "Jusa", attempted to escape. He was recaptured

18 and beaten by Dragan Papic and other HVO soldiers. The

19 accused Dragan Papic and another HVO soldier then shot

20 and killed Jusuf Ibrakovic while he lay unconscious on

21 the ground.

22 By the foregoing acts and omissions, the accused

23 individually and in concert with others committed the

24 following crimes:

25 Count 17: Dragan Papic participated in the

1 unlawful killing of Jusuf Ibrakovic, a grave breach

2 recognised by Article 2(a) of the Tribunal's Statute;

3 and

4 Count 18: Dragan Papic participated in the murder

5 of Jusuf Ibrakovic, a violation of the laws or customs

6 or war recognised by Article 3 of the Tribunal's

7 Statute.

8 2 November 1995, The Hague, The Netherlands,

9 signed Richard J Goldstone, Prosecutor.

10 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Mr Registrar.

11 First I would like to turn to the Defence and ask

12 the attorney the following so that it is understood.

13 The entire indictment was just read and you have seen

14 that two names relate to people who are not here among

15 the accused, that is Vlatko Kupreskic and Stipo

16 Alilovic. In a moment, on behalf of the Tribunal,

17 I will make sure that the accused understood the

18 indictment, and then we will ask them whether they plead

19 guilty or not guilty. I wanted to be very clear that

20 the accused present for those parts of the indictment

21 that concern them will answer for those parts. Is that

22 clear?

23 MR PAVKOVIC: Yes, it is clear, Mr President. They have

24 read this and they have understood everything. You have

25 indicated correctly the two persons listed in the

1 indictment are not present here.

2 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Mr Pavkovic. I would now like to

3 turn to the Prosecutor, to say that in the French

4 version, everything that involves Count 2 is translated

5 as "violations graves". I would like this -- that is

6 "infractions graves" in french, not "violations

7 graves". "Violations des lois ou coutumes de guerre",

8 but "infractions graves" for Article 2. I think this

9 affects the French text only in the indictment.

10 MR HARMON: Yes, I agree, Mr President.

11 JUDGE JORDA: I will now ask each accused to rise when his

12 name is called and ask whether he understood the

13 contents of the indictment in the language that he

14 understands and then ask him to state to the Tribunal

15 whether he pleads guilty or not guilty. I insist upon

16 this notion which is part of our Rules of procedure and

17 evidence which I call to you and which I reread to you.

18 You must state for each of the counts against you

19 whether you have chosen to plead guilty or not guilty.

20 I will ask you to rise, I will first ask Mr Zoran

21 Kupreskic to rise.

22 Mr Zoran Kupreskic, did you hear the indictment

23 and did you understand it?

24 MR ZORAN KUPRESKIC: I heard the indictment and I understood

25 it well.

1 JUDGE JORDA: Specifically those parts that concern you.

2 I will recall the counts one by one and ask you to state

3 whether you plead guilty or not guilty. Count 1,

4 unlawful and wanton destruction of property not

5 justified by military necessity, which is a grave breach

6 of Article 2(d) of the Tribunal Statute. Do you plead

7 or not guilty?

8 MR ZORAN KUPRESKIC: I am fully innocent as regards this

9 count.

10 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, but we use the notion of pleading guilty

11 or not guilty. I do not know whether the interpreters

12 are interpreting it properly. In the Rules it states

13 that you must say -- if you feel guilty, you can state

14 that at the proper time through your attorney, but for

15 the time being, we are asking you to make a choice of

16 one or the other, please. You can plead guilty, say

17 I am guilty, I can claim that there were mitigating

18 circumstances, or I can plead not guilty. I ask the

19 interpreters to be careful who translates the

20 interpretation of this nuance.

21 MR ZORAN KUPRESKIC: I plead not guilty.

22 JUDGE JORDA: Fine. Count 2, deliberate attack on the

23 civilian population and wanton destruction of a village,

24 which are violations of the laws and customs of war

25 recognised by Article 3 of the Statute.

1 MR ZORAN KUPRESKIC: I plead not guilty.

2 JUDGE JORDA: Count 3, the killing of Naser Ahmic, which is

3 a grave breach of the Geneva Convention, 2(a) of the

4 Tribunal Statute.

5 MR ZORAN KUPRESKIC: I plead not guilty.

6 JUDGE JORDA: Count 4, murder of Naser Ahmic, which would be

7 a violation of the laws and customs of war for the

8 Prosecutor recognised by Article 3 of the Statute.

9 MR ZORAN KUPRESKIC: I plead not guilty.

10 JUDGE JORDA: Count 5, wilful killing of Zehrudina Ahmic,

11 Elvis Ahmic and Sejad Ahmic, a grave breach recognised

12 by Article 2(a) of the Statute.

13 MR ZORAN KUPRESKIC: I plead not guilty.

14 JUDGE JORDA: Count 6, the murder of Zehrudina Ahmic, Elvis

15 Ahmic and Sejad Ahmic, which would be a violation of the

16 laws or customs of war, pursuant to Article 3 of the

17 Tribunal Statute.

18 MR ZORAN KUPRESKIC: I plead not guilty.

19 JUDGE JORDA: Count 7, wilfully causing great suffering or

20 serious injury to body or health or Sakib Ahmic, which

21 would be a grave breach, recognised by Article 2(c) of

22 the Statute.

23 MR ZORAN KUPRESKIC: I plead not guilty.

24 JUDGE JORDA: Count 8, wilfully subjecting cruel treatment

25 on Sakib Ahmic which would be a violation of the laws or

1 customs of war, recognised by Article 3 of the Statute.

2 MR ZORAN KUPRESKIC: I plead not guilty.

3 JUDGE JORDA: Mr Zoran Kupreskic, you may be seated.

4 I now call Mr Mirjan Kupreskic, and ask the same

5 questions. Did you hear those parts of the indictment

6 specifically that concern you and did you understand

7 it?

8 MR MIRJAN KUPRESKIC: Yes, I have understood.

9 JUDGE JORDA: We will now do the same as we did before. For

10 Count 1, wanton destruction of property not justified by

11 military means, Article 2(d) of the Statute. Do you

12 plead guilty?

13 MR MIRJAN KUPRESKIC: I feel not guilty.

14 JUDGE JORDA: Count 2, deliberate attack on the civilian

15 population and wanton destruction of a village which

16 would be a violation of the laws or customs of war,

17 recognised by Article 3 of the Statute.

18 MR MIRJAN KUPRESKIC: I feel not guilty.

19 JUDGE JORDA: Count 5.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He says he feels not guilty. Is that

21 his plea? That is the interpretation.

22 JUDGE JORDA: This may be an interpretation problem. I will

23 now say to Mr Pavkovic, to make sure one can understand

24 the procedure, one can feel innocent, but one must plead

25 guilty or not guilty. You see the nuance there, do you

1 not?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

3 MR PAVKOVIC: The pleading of this accused person

4 corresponds to his attitude towards the counts, the

5 charges, therefore it may be accepted if he pleads in

6 this manner. In essence it is one and the same thing.

7 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Judge Karibi-Whyte. This is a

8 point which had to be clarified. We can now continue.

9 Count 5. Wilful killing of Zehrudina Ahmic, Elvis Ahmic

10 and Sejad Ahmic, a grave breach recognised by Article

11 2(a) of the Statute.

12 MR MIRJAN KUPRESKIC: I plead not guilty.

13 JUDGE JORDA: Count 6, murder of Zehrudina Ahmic, Elvis

14 Ahmic and Sejad Ahmic, which would be a violation of the

15 laws or customs of war, recognised by Article 3 of the

16 Statute.

17 MR MIRJAN KUPRESKIC: I plead not guilty.

18 JUDGE JORDA: Count 7, wilfully causing great suffering or

19 serious injury to body or health on Sakib Ahmic, which

20 would be a grave breach recognised by Article 2(c) of

21 the Statute.

22 MR MIRJAN KUPRESKIC: I plead not guilty.

23 JUDGE JORDA: Count 8, wilfully subjecting cruel treatment

24 on Sakib Ahmic, according to Article 3, would be a

25 violation of the laws or customs of war.

1 MR MIRJAN KUPRESKIC: I plead not guilty.

2 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated, Mr Mirjan Kupreskic.

3 I will now ask Mr Vladimir Santic to rise. Did

4 you hear the indictment, did you understand its

5 contents, Mr Vladimir Santic?

6 MR SANTIC: Yes, I have understood the indictment referring

7 to me in full.

8 JUDGE JORDA: I will proceed the same way as I have just

9 done for the two before you. For Count 1, unlawful and

10 wanton destruction of property not justified by military

11 necessity, a grave breach of the general is a convention

12 and Article 2(d) of the Tribunal Statute. Do you plead

13 guilty or not guilty?

14 MR SANTIC: I plead not guilty.

15 JUDGE JORDA: Count 2, deliberate attack on the civilian

16 population and wanton destruction of a village, which

17 would be a violation of the laws or customs of war,

18 pursuant to Article 3 of the Tribunal Statute. Do you

19 plead guilty or not guilty?

20 MR SANTIC: I plead not guilty.

21 JUDGE JORDA: Count 13, wilful killing of Musafer Puscul, a

22 grave breach covered by Article 2(a) of the Statute.

23 MR SANTIC: I plead not guilty.

24 JUDGE JORDA: Count 14, the murder of Musafer Puscul, which

25 would be a violation of the laws or customs of war,

1 recognised by Article 3 of the Statute; do you plead

2 guilty or not guilty?

3 MR SANTIC: I plead not guilty.

4 JUDGE JORDA: You may be seated. I will now ask Mr Drago

5 Josipovic to rise.

6 First of all, did you hear the indictment in its

7 entirety and did you understand those parts concerning

8 yourself?

9 MR JOSIPOVIC: I have understood it fully.

10 JUDGE JORDA: I will call out each count and ask you to

11 state whether you plead guilty or not guilty. For Count

12 1, unlawful and wanton destruction of property not

13 justified by military necessity, recognised by Article

14 2(d) of our Statute, and would therefore be a grave

15 breach of the Geneva Convention. Do you plead guilty or

16 not guilty?

17 MR JOSIPOVIC: Not guilty.

18 JUDGE JORDA: Count 2, deliberate attack on the civilian

19 population and wanton destruction of a village pursuant

20 to Article 3 would be a violation of the laws and

21 customs of war. Do you plead guilty or not guilty?

22 MR JOSIPOVIC: Not guilty.

23 JUDGE JORDA: Count 13, the wilful killing of Musafer

24 Puscul, a grave breach recognised by Article 2(a) of the

25 Statute; do you plead guilty or not guilty.

1 MR JOSIPOVIC: Not guilty.

2 JUDGE JORDA: Count 14, the murder of Musafer Puscul, which

3 would be a violation of the laws or customs of war,

4 recognised by Article 3 of the Statute.

5 MR JOSIPOVIC: Not guilty.

6 JUDGE JORDA: You may be seated.

7 Mr Marinko Katava, would you rise, please? Did

8 you hear the indictment and did you understand it,

9 especially those parts which refer to yourself?

10 MR KATAVA: I heard it and I understood it.

11 JUDGE JORDA: For Count 1, unlawful and wanton destruction

12 of property not justified by military necessity, which

13 would be a grave breach of the Geneva Convention

14 recognised by Article 2(d) of the Tribunal Statute; do

15 you plead guilty or not guilty?

16 MR KATAVA: Not guilty.

17 JUDGE JORDA: For Count 2, the deliberate attack on the

18 civilian population and wanton destruction of a village,

19 which would be a violation of the laws or customs of

20 war, pursuant to Article 3 of the International Criminal

21 Tribunal's Statute, do you plead guilty or not guilty?

22 MR KATAVA: Not guilty.

23 JUDGE JORDA: Count 13, wilful killing of Musafer Puscul,

24 which would be a grave breach recognised by Article 2(a)

25 of the Statute; do you plead guilty or not guilty?

1 MR KATAVA: Not guilty.

2 JUDGE JORDA: For Count 14, the murder of Musafer Puscul, a

3 violation of the wars and customs of war, recognised by

4 Article 3 of our Statute; do you plead guilty or not

5 guilty?

6 MR KATAVA: Not guilty.

7 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated.

8 Mr Dragan Papic, did you hear the indictment and

9 did you understand it, those parts concerning yourself?

10 MR PAPIC: I have heard the indictment and I understood it

11 fully.

12 JUDGE JORDA: For Count 1 in this indictment, unlawful and

13 wanton destruction of property not justified by military

14 necessity, which would be a grave breach of the Geneva

15 Conventions recognised by Article 2(d) of the Tribunal's

16 Statute, do you plead guilty or not guilty?

17 MR PAPIC: I plead not guilty.

18 JUDGE JORDA: For Count 2, the deliberate attack on the

19 civilian population and wanton destruction of a village,

20 which would be a violation of the laws and customs of

21 war, recognised by Article 3 of the Tribunal's Statute,

22 do you plead guilty or not guilty?

23 MR PAPIC: I plead not guilty.

24 JUDGE JORDA: For Count 15, unlawful confinement of

25 civilians, a grave breach recognised by 2(g) of our

1 Statute, do you plead guilty or not guilty?

2 MR PAPIC: I plead not guilty.

3 JUDGE JORDA: For Count 16, participation in outrages upon

4 the personal dignity of another, the violation of the

5 laws or customs of war recognised by Article 3 of the

6 Tribunal Statute, do you plead guilty or not guilty?

7 MR PAPIC: I plead not guilty.

8 JUDGE JORDA: For Count 17, unlawful killing of Jusuf

9 Ibrakovic, which would be a grave breach recognised by

10 Article 2(a) of the Tribunal Statute, do you plead

11 guilty or not guilty?

12 MR PAPIC: I plead not guilty.

13 JUDGE JORDA: And for Count 18, the murder of Jusuf

14 Ibrakovic, a violation of the laws or customs of war

15 recognised by Article 3 of the Tribunal Statute, do you

16 plead guilty or not guilty?

17 MR PAPIC: I plead not guilty.

18 JUDGE JORDA: You may be seated. I now again turn to

19 Mr Pavkovic and say that we consider that this

20 declaration by which the accused state that they feel

21 not guilty is the same thing as being statements of --

22 pleas of not guilty for procedural matters, which allows

23 you therefore to plead not guilty before this Tribunal.

24 Do we agree to that, Mr Pavkovic?

25 MR PAVKOVIC: Mr President, I have understood you and

1 I agree with your interpretation of this issue. So if

2 you will allow me, if I may say a few words in

3 conclusion, all the accused present here --

4 JUDGE JORDA: Excuse me, the hearing is not completed yet.

5 MR PAVKOVIC: My apologies.

6 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated. I will ask the Registrar to

7 note all of the pleas of not guilty. Before giving you

8 back the floor Mr Pavkovic, I would like to speak about

9 the organisation of the Trial Chamber's work. I would

10 like to turn to the Prosecutor and recall his

11 obligations which are covered by Rule 66 of the

12 Tribunal, which say that he shall make available to the

13 Defence as soon as practicable all copies of the

14 supporting material which accompanied the indictment

15 when confirmation was sought, as well as all prior

16 statements obtained by the Prosecutor from the accused

17 or from Prosecution witnesses. Where are we as far as

18 this goes? What have you done as far as this is

19 concerned, Mr Prosecutor?

20 MR HARMON: Mr President, we are gathering those materials

21 and we will provide them to the Defence within two

22 weeks.

23 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. The Tribunal notes that in two

24 weeks Mr Pavkovic should receive all of the supporting

25 material for the indictment when confirmation was being

1 sought, as well as prior statements of the accused and

2 the statements of any witnesses which were taken.

3 I also point out to you and recall that according to the

4 text in force at this Tribunal that, starting from

5 today, that is the day of the initial appearance of the

6 accused, that is October 8th 1997, we have 60 days in

7 order to file any preliminary motions which are provided

8 for under Rules 72 and 73 of the Rules of Procedure and

9 Evidence.

10 We should set the date for a status conference in

11 order to review the status of the work, but perhaps this

12 is premature to set the date for the status conference.

13 What is your opinion about this, Mr Pavkovic? After

14 that I will ask for the Prosecutor's opinion.

15 Mr Pavkovic?

16 MR PAVKOVIC: Your Honour, I must say first of all that I as

17 the Defence counsel accept this deadline of two weeks

18 for the submission of the supporting material attached

19 to the indictment. As for the status conference, we

20 would be grateful if that would be held as soon as

21 possible and we the Defence counsel will make every

22 effort to contribute to that. Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Mr Pavkovic. I would like to

24 point -- Mr Harmon? You heard what Mr Pavkovic said.

25 MR HARMON: Mr President, I believe that the setting of a

1 date for the status conference is premature at this

2 point in time. I note that counsel represents six

3 accused and until the issues of multiple representation

4 are clarified, I do not think we can have a meaningful

5 status conference.

6 JUDGE JORDA: Mr Pavkovic, the Prosecutor has just raised an

7 issue, a question which we would have asked. You are

8 the single Defence for the six accused. Would it be

9 indiscreet to ask you whether you will be alone in the

10 future or whether you have thought about the possible

11 conflicts of interest, whether there are other people

12 who will work with you, or are you only alone for

13 today? You can answer that as you like.

14 MR PAVKOVIC: Your Honour, I have already said that we as

15 the Defence counsel will do everything in our power and

16 I do not think that the Prosecutor should be concerned

17 with the position of the Defence counsel. I am here

18 today representing all the accused, but as the trial

19 progresses, I will only be defending the accused Marinko

20 Katava, and you have in the court record the powers of

21 attorney of other Defence counsel for the other

22 accused. So just a minor correction, except for I will

23 also be defending Drago Josipovic, and you have my power

24 of attorney in the court record. I have submitted it to

25 the Registry. Thank you very much.

1 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you for these clarifications, which were

2 noted by the Registrar. I would like, however, to raise

3 two issues. The first is a material question, but which

4 has an effect on our work. We have only one courtroom,

5 and therefore would be even premature to set a trial

6 date. In addition to that, you realise that the judges

7 of this Tribunal, at least some of them, are reaching

8 the end of their mandate which will expire on

9 17th November. Others were elected by the General

10 Assembly of the United Nations. It may be that after

11 17th November there will be a change in the composition

12 of this Trial Chamber. There may be a change in the

13 Defence composition and therefore in the Trial Chamber

14 as well, but all of this will be made clear.

15 I would like to ask whether Mr Pavkovic has any

16 other comments he would like to make. You may speak

17 before we adjourn the hearing.

18 MR PAVKOVIC: Thank you very much. I have no other comments

19 to make. Thank you.

20 JUDGE JORDA: Mr Prosecutor?

21 MR HARMON: Mr President, I have no additional comments.

22 Thank you.

23 JUDGE JORDA: I turn to my colleagues; have you any

24 comments, Judge Karibi-Whyte?

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No, I have not.

1 JUDGE JORDA: Judge Shahabuddeen?

2 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: No comments at this time.

3 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Judge Shahabuddeen. I would like

4 to conclude. In order to implement the texts in their

5 entirety -- it is difficult to set a trial date, but

6 I would like to hear your opinion about this,

7 Mr Registrar, so that the transcript will express

8 officially what is happening.

9 THE REGISTRAR: It would be difficult for us to suggest a

10 trial date at this point.

11 JUDGE JORDA: Since there are no other comments, this

12 hearing stands adjourned.

13 (1.00 pm)

14 (Hearing adjourned)

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