1. 1 Thursday, 20th August 1998

    2 (Open session)

    3 (The accused entered court)

    4 (The witness entered court)

    5 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

    6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-16-T, the

    7 Prosecutor versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic,

    8 Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic, and

    9 Vladimir Santic, also known as "Vlado."

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning.

    11 Mr. Moskowitz?

    12 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, Mr. President. I

    13 believe, in the last day or two, there was some

    14 discussion about the admissibility of some photographic

    15 exhibits and also a directive from the Chamber to

    16 produce a list of those photographic exhibits and the

    17 dates or approximate dates when they were taken, and

    18 then a suggestion to get together with coordinating

    19 counsel, Mr. Pavkovic, and see if we could narrow the

    20 issues.

    21 We have done that, Mr. Pavkovic and I have

    22 met this morning and have narrowed the issues, and we

    23 wanted to simply announce that to the Court and to seek

    24 the Court's guidance as to when would be an appropriate

    25 time to deal with those issues.

  2. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: May I ask you, so how many

    2 photographs are still not agreed upon?

    3 MR. MOSKOWITZ: If the Court has in front of

    4 it --


    6 MR. MOSKOWITZ: -- the index, I can read out

    7 the numbers.


    9 MR. MOSKOWITZ: P-15 through P-22, all of

    10 those inclusive, and then one more, P-24, and I

    11 believe, and Mr. Pavkovic can confirm that or correct

    12 me if I'm wrong, that would be the extent of the

    13 photographs at issue.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Pavkovic?

    15 MR. PAVKOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. I

    16 can only confirm what the Prosecutor has said, and it

    17 is the Defence counsel's standpoint that these

    18 photographs, these exhibits, are to be contested.

    19 We consider that these exhibits, if you will

    20 allow me to summarise our standpoint -- Your Honour,

    21 may I proceed? The Defence maintains that these

    22 exhibits cannot be connected either by time or by place

    23 with the events pertaining to the indictment.

    24 As we know, these photographs might have been

    25 taken, unfortunately, at any place in Bosnia during

  3. 1 this war. These are the reasons why the Defence cannot

    2 accept what the Prosecutor considers to be evidence and

    3 something that, according to the Prosecutor, should

    4 confirm his statements.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I think most of

    6 these photographs, or probably all of them, were taken

    7 by Colonel Watters; is that correct? Or produced but

    8 also -- yes, produced by him --

    9 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: But taken -- I thought he had

    11 himself taken or some of his soldiers had taken those

    12 photographs.

    13 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes, either he or his

    14 soldiers had taken the photographs on the date

    15 specified in the index. I believe he said he may have

    16 taken the photograph number 24, the one of the

    17 anti-aircraft gun, but my recollection is that he said,

    18 if he didn't, it was common practice for his soldiers

    19 to take photographs of big weapons in the area during

    20 that time period. I believe he also testified that he

    21 was in Bosnia from the period of February through May

    22 of '93, and all these photographs at issue were taken

    23 during that time period, and therefore, we believe are

    24 quite relevant to the issues in this case.

    25 I might also add that it appears to me that

  4. 1 the primary objection of the Defence is not necessarily

    2 the admissibility of these photographs, that is,

    3 whether they were properly identified by a competent

    4 witness as being fair and accurate, but a broader

    5 objection as to their pertinence to the legal or

    6 factual issues of this case, and I think that is an

    7 argument that is premature since the evidence in this

    8 case is still at the preliminary stage and, in any

    9 event, I think that's something the Court can take into

    10 consideration at the end of the case, to determine what

    11 evidence, if any, it should consider in determining the

    12 guilt or innocence of any of the accused.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: We have just decided that all

    14 of them will be admitted into evidence. They were

    15 taken either by Colonel Watters or his soldiers, and he

    16 testified in court to this effect, so we don't have any

    17 doubt about their authenticity.

    18 As to the direct relevance, if any, to the

    19 facts which are in issue here, then we will, of course,

    20 decide on this matter later on. But for the time

    21 being, they are admitted into evidence.

    22 So we may now move on to the

    23 cross-examination of our witness, and I would like to

    24 turn to Mr. Pavkovic to ask him whether he could

    25 briefly indicate to us who is going to cross-examine

  5. 1 the witness.

    2 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, Petar Puliselic

    3 will be the first Defence counsel to cross-examine the

    4 witness. He will be followed by Ranko Radovic and then

    5 by Mrs. Jandranka Slokovic-Glumac and the others will

    6 then see whether all the essential questions have been

    7 asked.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Puliselic?


    10 Cross-examined by Mr. Puliselic:

    11 Q. Mr. Rizvanovic, do you know to whom you made

    12 statements before arriving at the International

    13 Tribunal in connection with the events in Ahmici?

    14 A. I don't understand the question.

    15 Q. I'm asking you whether you know to what

    16 organisation or to what service you made a statement or

    17 statements in connection with the events in Ahmici.

    18 You made a statement this year, which we have in our

    19 files, so, please, can you tell us to whom you made

    20 this statement, if you know?

    21 A. At my police station to the investigators

    22 investigating war crimes.

    23 Q. Where?

    24 A. In Prijedor.

    25 Q. Were you perhaps told what you were supposed

  6. 1 to say and what persons you were supposed to mention?

    2 A. I was not told who I should mention. I know

    3 who I should mention, and I went through hell, and

    4 that's what I talked about.

    5 Q. Do you know what AID is, A-I-D, what this

    6 stands for?

    7 A. I don't understand this well.

    8 Q. I wanted to ask you why your statement was

    9 made as late as 1998, that is, five years after the

    10 event?

    11 A. I can't answer that.

    12 Q. You said that, as a refugee, you arrived in

    13 Ahmici from Prijedor?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Who drove you away from your house?

    16 A. We were driven away by the Serbs.

    17 Q. At about what time did you arrive in Ahmici?

    18 A. I left Prijedor on the 22nd of August. We

    19 spent some time in Travnik. And then I went to Vitez

    20 where I spent some time in a children's holiday centre,

    21 two nights, and then, sometime in early September --

    22 Q. That's when you arrived in Ahmici?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Did you arrive in Ahmici by yourself?

    25 A. I had a wife and a daughter.

  7. 1 Q. What was your intention? Was it your

    2 intention to remain in Ahmici permanently or was it

    3 only a temporary solution?

    4 A. I considered it a temporary solution because

    5 I wanted to go back where I had come from.

    6 Q. Do you know perhaps how many other refugees

    7 from Prijedor arrived in Ahmici?

    8 A. I don't know the exact number, but there were

    9 quite a few.

    10 Q. Can you make an estimate?

    11 A. A few families, but some of them went abroad

    12 and some stayed.

    13 Q. Did other refugees from other places arrive

    14 in Ahmici?

    15 A. Yes. There were people from Jajce, from

    16 Tjentiste, from eastern Bosnia, people from Karaule,

    17 from Visegrad, and some other places.

    18 Q. You said that you did not consider staying in

    19 Ahmici to be a long-term solution, that you intended to

    20 go back to the place of your birth?

    21 A. Of course.

    22 Q. However, in the statement you made to AID,

    23 which is the Muslim Intelligence, you said that it was

    24 your intention to leave Bosnia and Herzegovina?

    25 A. Well, yes, but I couldn't get the necessary

  8. 1 documents to leave.

    2 Q. What was the obstacle to your getting these

    3 documents?

    4 A. You needed a lot of documents, a lot of

    5 things, and I didn't have anything with me.

    6 Q. You said in your statement that you had not

    7 joined the Territorial Defence.

    8 A. No, I hadn't.

    9 Q. Why?

    10 A. Well, I didn't.

    11 Q. Did anyone promise to give you documents if

    12 you did them a favour?

    13 A. No, nobody promised me anything, nor did I

    14 ask for anything of that sort.

    15 Q. You mentioned in this court that you were

    16 familiar with the location of the Papic house.

    17 A. Yes, I passed by quite a few times as I was

    18 going toward Vitez.

    19 Q. Do you know who inhabited the house?

    20 A. I couldn't say.

    21 Q. Did you know Ivo Papic?

    22 A. I knew him by sight. I knew Dragan best.

    23 Q. How did you know him? Did you ever talk to

    24 him?

    25 A. No, no, I only knew him by sight.

  9. 1 Q. How did you know this was Dragan Papic?

    2 A. I know because other people saw him as I did.

    3 Q. You said in this court that you had met

    4 Dragan Papic on two occasions several days before the

    5 main conflict and that he was wearing a black uniform?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. And that you had also seen him previously in

    8 that black uniform?

    9 A. Yes, that was before the beginning of the

    10 aggression.

    11 Q. You also said that you had once seen him

    12 carrying a sniper?

    13 A. Yes, I did.

    14 Q. I would like to ask you whether you know

    15 something about weapons.

    16 A. I know what a sniper is, I know what an

    17 automatic rifle is.

    18 Q. How do you know it was a sniper? Can you

    19 describe it?

    20 A. Because it has an optical device on it.

    21 Q. Do you know what an Ustasha flag looks like?

    22 A. I saw that it was something black, a black

    23 flag.

    24 Q. In Croatia, they put black flags on the house

    25 of a deceased. What kind of flags did you see? You

  10. 1 mentioned it. Can you describe it?

    2 A. I saw a big checkerboard flag flying from the

    3 house.

    4 Q. Was that flag always there, the checkerboard

    5 flag, or was it there only when they were celebrating a

    6 holiday on feast days and so on?

    7 A. I couldn't say that. But when I passed by, I

    8 saw it, and that's how I described it.

    9 Q. Have you ever seen any Muslim inhabitants of

    10 Ahmici wearing a uniform?

    11 A. No, none of them, because they were all

    12 civilians and none of them were in the army where I

    13 was.

    14 Q. But didn't you go further abroad from your

    15 neighbourhood?

    16 A. Well, a little, but I was full of fear. I

    17 didn't like moving about a lot.

    18 Q. Did you see any of the Muslims carrying

    19 weapons?

    20 A. No, I didn't.

    21 Q. Do you know Mehrudin Bilic, nicknamed Mehro?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Do you know if he had a weapon in his house?

    24 A. I couldn't notice.

    25 Q. Do you know Hazrudin Bilic?

  11. 1 A. Yes, I know him too.

    2 Q. Do you happen to know whether he had a

    3 weapon?

    4 A. No, I couldn't see anything of that kind.

    5 MR. PULISELIC: Thank you. There are no more

    6 questions.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Puliselic.

    8 Mr. Radovic?

    9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

    10 Microphone, please.

    11 Cross-examined by Mr. Radovic:

    12 Q. The Prosecutor showed you a photograph

    13 yesterday, and when your finger happened to stop at a

    14 place which you could not identify, he told you to put

    15 a circle around it and that you would be doing a good

    16 deed. I'm asking you, do you know what it is that you

    17 put a circle around?

    18 A. I don't understand the question.

    19 Q. Allow me to repeat it. What is it that you

    20 encircled in response to a request from the Prosecutor?

    21 A. I was asked to encircle the house in which I

    22 stayed.

    23 Q. And you did?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 MR. RADOVIC: I'm asking because that was

  12. 1 something else that he said yesterday.

    2 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, in order to make

    3 things easier, would it be possible to have the exhibit

    4 again, to show the photograph again?

    5 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, before the

    6 photograph is shown again to Mr. Rizvanovic, may I ask

    7 him whether, in the meantime, that is, since

    8 yesterday's testimony, he discussed this point with the

    9 Prosecutor?

    10 A. No, I did not.

    11 MR. RADOVIC: Very well. Then let him show

    12 on this photograph the Papic house and then let him

    13 show the house where he was staying.

    14 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, we can't hear

    15 the witness. He's not speaking into the microphone.

    16 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, often it is

    17 difficult to orient yourself in this photograph. The

    18 best way to see it is to turn it around for

    19 Mr. Rizvanovic. It may be strange to us, but he can

    20 orient himself much better on this photograph if it's

    21 turned around. That's the only explanation I can give

    22 you.

    23 MR. RADOVIC: Can we see the witness

    24 pointing, please, on the monitor?

    25 A. This is where I stayed, this is where you

  13. 1 have to go forward. Somewhere here. Here somewhere.

    2 Somewhere here.

    3 Q. What is that? What is that?

    4 A. The Papic house. If you go this way --

    5 Q. Will you show it to us exactly, please?

    6 A. This is the path, isn't it, going to Vitez,

    7 isn't it? Here.

    8 MR. RADOVIC: I can't see. Could the

    9 technical booth please show us what the witness is

    10 pointing to because I can't see what it is that he is

    11 showing.

    12 A. Here it is, it is this house. This house.

    13 Q. What is that?

    14 A. I passed along this road many times and I saw

    15 his house here.

    16 Q. Where is his house?

    17 A. Here it is.

    18 Q. Will you put a circle around it with a red

    19 marker?

    20 A. This is it.

    21 Q. Please use a red marker to put a circle

    22 around it.

    23 A. Just a moment. Just a moment, please.

    24 Q. Maybe a blue marker would be better so that

    25 we can see the difference?

  14. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Could you have a blue

    2 marker?

    3 A. It should be here somewhere.

    4 MR. RADOVIC:

    5 Q. Put a circle, please, a circle. A cross.

    6 All right.

    7 A. These were these houses. It should be here

    8 somewhere. And up here is the road going --

    9 Q. Ahmici.

    10 A. Yes, Ahmici.

    11 Q. Don't put a cross but put a circle around the

    12 cross. Fine. Thank you.

    13 You were saying something about black

    14 uniforms and a black flag. My learned colleague

    15 started asking you questions about that, but let me

    16 continue.

    17 What does a black flag mean to you? Will you

    18 please explain to us whether it was all black, plain

    19 black, or had some other indicators on it?

    20 A. When I looked at it from the road, I couldn't

    21 notice the details except that it was quite long and it

    22 was black, but the checkerboard --

    23 Q. Leave aside the checkerboard. I'm asking you

    24 about the black flag. Did it have any signs on it

    25 except being a piece of black cloth?

  15. 1 A. I couldn't notice that from the road.

    2 Q. What was your association when you saw this

    3 black flag? What did it mean to you in your mind?

    4 A. First of all, I didn't even know what it

    5 meant, but later, I learnt it was the Ustasha flag.

    6 Q. So it is a Ustasha flag, according to you.

    7 Do you know what a Ustasha flag looked like?

    8 A. That's what I saw.

    9 Q. I'm asking you, do you know what an Ustasha

    10 flag looks like? Do you or do you not know? Answer

    11 that question.

    12 A. It had symbols, but I couldn't see that. I

    13 could just see that it was black.

    14 Q. My question is: Does a black flag mean an

    15 Ustasha flag to you?

    16 A. All I can say is what I saw.

    17 Q. If you're talking about an Ustasha flag, I'm

    18 asking you, can you tell us what an Ustasha flag looks

    19 like? Do you know what it looks like or not? I think

    20 the majority of people in this hall don't know what it

    21 looks like.

    22 A. I'm not old enough to know.

    23 Q. But an Ustasha flag was never a black flag.

    24 You said that Papic had a black uniform on.

    25 What, in your mind, did that black uniform represent?

  16. 1 A. I think that the Ustashas wore black flags.

    2 Q. Well, you see, they didn't. Was it all

    3 Ustashas or just a separate unit of Ustashas?

    4 A. I can't answer that. I don't know.

    5 Q. Five years after the events, you made the

    6 statement to the AID agency. How actually did you get

    7 in touch with AID? Did they come to look for you or

    8 did you yourself report or how was this contact

    9 established? How did they learn about you five years

    10 after the events? And you were questioned at a time

    11 when a whole team of investigators of the International

    12 Tribunal was there, so how come they didn't interview

    13 you but, rather, the AID agency?

    14 A. I don't know how they found me.

    15 Q. Will you tell me how it went? Did they call

    16 you or did you go yourself?

    17 A. Could you repeat that question?

    18 Q. Did you go to the AID office yourself or did

    19 somebody come to fetch you?

    20 A. They came home to my house, they knew I had

    21 been there and that I had survived the genocide.

    22 Q. Did they tell you how they learned about it?

    23 A. I was registered with the Red Cross and then

    24 they inquired where people had been.

    25 Q. Where was this?

  17. 1 A. That was some time ago, but quite recently,

    2 they came to my house. I can't remember the date

    3 because my brain is not really working properly.

    4 Q. But we are still fresh. This is only the

    5 morning. What will happen in the afternoon?

    6 A. Considering what I went through, even this is

    7 a wonder.

    8 Q. I am not asking you about that. I just want

    9 to know what happened.

    10 You said that in the month of October, the

    11 inhabitants of Ahmici put up a barricade on the road

    12 and would not allow HVO soldiers to pass. What can you

    13 tell us about that? Why did they build a barricade?

    14 Did they do this on their own initiative or did they

    15 receive an order to erect this barricade?

    16 A. I don't know on whose initiative it was

    17 done. I just know that it was because when there was

    18 that clash in Novi Travnik.

    19 MR. RADOVIC: It's a slang word the witness

    20 is using which we in Zagreb also use to mean "clash" or

    21 "chaos."

    22 A. They didn't allow them to pass. Then they

    23 crossed to the hill of Hrasno and then they attacked

    24 Ahmici. But this was a smaller-scale conflict.

    25 Q. You said that at the time a Muslim young man

  18. 1 was killed. Do you know whether any Croats were killed

    2 on that day?

    3 A. No, I don't know, but I know that a

    4 16-year-old Muslim was killed.

    5 Q. You said that no one introduced you to Croats

    6 and that you didn't have any particular contact with

    7 Croats.

    8 A. I didn't.

    9 Q. When you mentioned the name of Dragan Papic

    10 in AID, did you yourself provide the name or did the

    11 people from AID suggest it to you?

    12 A. No, no. I knew him.

    13 Q. How did you link the name to the person?

    14 A. I don't understand what you're asking me.

    15 Q. For instance, my name is Ranko Radovic. How

    16 did you learn what my name was? Did somebody point me

    17 to you or what?

    18 A. When I first came, I was staying with Bilic

    19 Hijadet, and Bilic's house and Papic's house are very

    20 close, and this is how I learned that that was Papic's

    21 house.

    22 Q. When you were in AID and interviewed about

    23 Papic Dragan, were any photographs shown to you on the

    24 basis of which you might be able to identify the person

    25 that you considered to be Papic Dragan?

  19. 1 A. No, they didn't give me anything.

    2 Q. So you just mentioned the name and they

    3 didn't ask you to point to the person you considered to

    4 be Papic Dragan on the basis of photographs?

    5 A. But why should they when I knew him?

    6 Q. I am just asking you whether you were shown

    7 any photographs for identification purposes.

    8 A. No, I wasn't.

    9 Q. You were one of the more cautious people, and

    10 you said that on the 15th of April, 1993 -- there's a

    11 misprint here. It says '92. I suppose it should be

    12 '93 -- that you reached the mosque and that you warned

    13 them that you had seen Croats moving out. Another

    14 friend told you that?

    15 A. That's right.

    16 Q. You noticed something yourself and another

    17 friend told you something. My question is: Which

    18 people did you warn near the mosque?

    19 A. People were walking around. I suppose we had

    20 agreed that we should let each other know as soon as we

    21 noticed anything.

    22 Q. Roughly about what time of day was this on

    23 the 15th of April when you told people about the

    24 danger? I know that you weren't wearing a watch, but

    25 roughly what time was it?

  20. 1 A. It was just before dark fell.

    2 Q. Very well. You also said that the local

    3 people didn't believe, didn't believe you. And how did

    4 they explain this lack of belief in your warnings?

    5 A. Before all these things had happened,

    6 relations were good among them. They had nice

    7 relations among the people, in between the period of

    8 the first aggression and this one.

    9 Q. I'm sorry, I can't understand anything you're

    10 saying. You came to warn these people around the

    11 mosque of danger signals?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Can you name any of the persons that you

    14 talked to about what you had noticed and that there was

    15 a danger sign? Will you please remember the surnames

    16 too?

    17 A. Senko, I can't remember his surname, his

    18 house is right next to the mosque, and Vehbija, I can't

    19 remember his name. He was there too. His house is

    20 also next to the mosque.

    21 Q. So they made light of what you were saying to

    22 them?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Did they discuss what you had told them with

    25 others?

  21. 1 A. Perhaps. We stayed there talking for a while

    2 and then each one went to his own home to see what he

    3 should do.

    4 Q. You said two things that were contradictory

    5 yesterday, so let's clarify that. You said yesterday

    6 that you didn't sleep all night, but you also said that

    7 you were awakened by the first shot. When sleeping,

    8 how could you be awakened?

    9 A. I was lying down. I was dozing. I wasn't

    10 sleeping properly.

    11 Q. So you were half awake, so to speak. Half

    12 awake, half asleep. Is that acceptable as a

    13 definition?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. If you were neither awake nor asleep, how

    16 then could you identify the position from which the

    17 first shot came when it actually woke you up?

    18 A. I heard the shot and I jumped up immediately

    19 and I knew where it was coming from.

    20 Q. By the sound, you identified it by the sound;

    21 do you agree with me?

    22 A. Yes, I'm just saying --

    23 Q. You didn't see the bullet?

    24 A. No, you can't see a bullet. How can you see

    25 a bullet?

  22. 1 Q. So according to the sound?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Tell us, did you ever go to Grabovi?

    4 A. I'm not a local inhabitant, so I don't really

    5 know what you're referring to.

    6 Q. It is the central part of the village?

    7 A. I went through the woods, if that is what is

    8 called Grabovi.

    9 Q. Do you know who owns which house among the

    10 Croats and Muslims in Grabovi?

    11 A. I went there rarely, but I knew roughly who

    12 were the Croats and who were the Muslims.

    13 Q. By the roofs?

    14 A. Not really.

    15 Q. Well then, how did you know?

    16 A. Well, the neighbours would say these are

    17 Catholic homes and these are Muslim homes.

    18 Q. Did they tell you the names, or did they just

    19 tell you these were Catholic and these were Muslim?

    20 A. Sometimes they would give me the names, but

    21 that wasn't of any interest to me because I was a

    22 refugee.

    23 Q. So you didn't intend to stay anyway, so that

    24 didn't interest you.

    25 Could you give us the name of any individual

  23. 1 Croat whose house you remember up there in the central

    2 part of the village?

    3 A. I know the house of the person who had a

    4 shop. What was his name? Kupreskic, yes. We would go

    5 to buy something there, the man who had the shop.

    6 Q. Any other house?

    7 A. There were several of their houses there

    8 around the shop.

    9 Q. Do you know the names of the owners of the

    10 houses near the shop?

    11 A. Vlatko, Zoran, and Mirjan. Those were those

    12 houses there.

    13 Q. So you remember them.

    14 A. Yes, I remember it from the stories, from the

    15 conversations that we had when we went to the shop.

    16 Q. Can you tell us how far the Kupreskic house

    17 is from the place where you were that morning; that is,

    18 to be more precise, from the Bilic house as the crow

    19 flies?

    20 A. It's not far, but I'm not very good at

    21 measurement.

    22 Q. If you went on foot, how many minutes would

    23 it take you?

    24 A. It's not far to go to the shop.

    25 Q. It's not far, but it needs some time.

  24. 1 A. I didn't have a watch to measure, so I don't

    2 know how to answer that question.

    3 Q. Did you ever pass by those other houses apart

    4 from the one in which the shop was?

    5 A. I did sometimes go to Upper Ahmici, but I

    6 moved around very little, very little.

    7 Q. If you're going to Upper Ahmici, do you pass

    8 by those houses? Are you sure of that?

    9 A. Yes, that's how -- what I was told when I

    10 passed by.

    11 Q. Could you name the person in Upper Ahmici

    12 that you went to visit when you went along that road?

    13 A. I had a friend.

    14 Q. What was his name?

    15 (redacted).

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry to interrupt you,

    17 Mr. Radovic. Again, the interpreters are asking

    18 whether you could make a break, have a break between

    19 questions and answers so that we can follow the

    20 interpretation. Otherwise, the transcript will not be

    21 accurate and we can't follow. Thank you.

    22 MR. RADOVIC:

    23 Q. Tell us the first and last name of the man

    24 that you went to visit in upper Ahmici?

    25 A. I went to visit (redacted).

  25. 1 Q. I'm asking you again, are you sure that when

    2 you went to Upper Ahmici, you passed by the Kupreskic

    3 house?

    4 A. When you're going up, you go a bit to the

    5 left, and I was told that those were the Kupreskic

    6 houses.

    7 Q. Unfortunately, we don't have a map now for me

    8 to show you so that you could show us, but we will show

    9 the Trial Chamber the photograph or the map which will

    10 show that you do not pass by the Kupreskic houses to go

    11 to Upper Ahmici.

    12 Tell us, (redacted) have a house in

    13 Upper Ahmici? Was he living there?

    14 A. He was staying with someone. I didn't ask

    15 him whether that was his house or not. I just stopped

    16 by.

    17 Q. When you went to Upper Ahmici, you went to

    18 (redacted)?

    19 A. I suppose it was his house. I had a coffee

    20 with him.

    21 Q. So you went to a particular place to see

    22 (redacted). What would you say if we told you that

    23 (redacted) is not in Upper Ahmici?

    24 A. He is. He's there.

    25 Q. Well, let us say that is so. Tell me now, in

  26. 1 connection with the unit which was allegedly attacking,

    2 what did you hear about it? Who among the Croats

    3 attacked Ahmici?

    4 A. I think it was the Croatian Defence Council,

    5 the Croatian army.

    6 Q. Yes, but when you were interviewed in AID,

    7 you said something special. Do you know or don't you

    8 know which unit was attacking?

    9 A. HVO.

    10 Q. Nothing more than that. All you know is that

    11 it was the HVO?

    12 A. Yes, some Jokers were participating too.

    13 Q. And how do you know that they were

    14 participating?

    15 A. I heard it.

    16 Q. From whom?

    17 A. From the local people. That a unit from

    18 Busovaca had come and some other people from

    19 Herzegovina when there was the attack at Novi Travnik.

    20 Q. Who did you hear that from?

    21 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel make a pause,

    22 please?

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: You should slow down.

    24 Otherwise, we can't follow.

    25 MR. RADOVIC: Sorry.

  27. 1 Q. Could you please identify the person that you

    2 heard this from?

    3 A. I heard it from the local inhabitants. I

    4 didn't take note of their names. The people were

    5 talking about it, the locals.

    6 Q. You don't know the locals by name, but you do

    7 know the names of the Croats with whom you had no

    8 contact.

    9 A. But I was walking around.

    10 Q. But surely you were walking around near the

    11 Croats too, surely.

    12 A. I was there in Ahmici that night.

    13 Q. Then tell me the name of the local who told

    14 you, who identified the unit that was attacking.

    15 Because, you see, it's a bit strange to me, because in

    16 your statement, you name the Croats with whom you did

    17 not socialise and you can't name the locals with whom

    18 you did socialise.

    19 A. For instance, there was Senko there, and

    20 there were others, Edzo, I heard this from them.

    21 Q. When you were making the statement in AID,

    22 were you shown anybody's photograph, the photograph of

    23 any Croat for the purposes of identification?

    24 A. No, no.

    25 Q. Does the name Mirjan mean anything to you?

  28. 1 A. Mirjan? He's Kupreskic.

    2 Q. From whom did you hear his name?

    3 A. I heard it when I came to the shop. They

    4 referred to the Kupreskics, and that's all.

    5 Q. What has Vlatko Kupreskic's shop have to do

    6 with Mirjan?

    7 A. I was told that Mirjan was living just

    8 behind.

    9 Q. Who told you?

    10 A. Well, the peasants, the farmers, they know

    11 their names.

    12 Q. Can you recognise Mirjan in person?

    13 A. No.

    14 Q. Could you recognise Zoran?

    15 A. No.

    16 Q. Did you ever see them in your life?

    17 A. I may have passed by them, but I didn't know

    18 who they were.

    19 Q. Do you know anything from personal experience

    20 what they were doing on the 16th of April?

    21 A. The 16th of April? I heard what I have

    22 already told you about, who had participated in that

    23 attack.

    24 Q. I'm not interested in what you said, I'm

    25 interested in what you saw and what you heard?

  29. 1 A. I didn't see anything. I didn't see.

    2 Q. Do you know Sakib Ahmic?

    3 A. I do, but not well.

    4 Q. Did you ever see him on television?

    5 A. I have no TV set, so I couldn't watch.

    6 MR. RADOVIC: Thank you. Thank you. That

    7 ends my cross-examination.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Radovic.

    9 Before -- yes?

    10 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President --

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: If you will allow me one

    12 second. Before we move on to other legal counsel, may

    13 I call upon all legal counsel, Defence counsel, to

    14 refrain from any ironical comments or remarks. This is

    15 not proper in court. We will no longer allow any

    16 counsel of Prosecution to make such comments about

    17 witnesses. This is quite unacceptable.

    18 Yes, Mr. Terrier?

    19 MR. TERRIER: Thank you very much for these

    20 words, Mr. President. I would like to ask for some

    21 clarification as to the order in the proceedings.

    22 Yesterday, when I was carrying out the

    23 examination-in-chief of Mr. Rizvanovic, I limited

    24 myself to three items in the written statements. They

    25 were points which seemed very important to me. And I

  30. 1 didn't want to waste the Tribunal's time with other

    2 elements that were of minor relevance.

    3 I do not query the relevance of the questions

    4 raised by the two Defence counsel, but I have the

    5 feeling that many of the questions raised were outside

    6 the scope of the questions I put yesterday during the

    7 examination-in-chief.

    8 I also had the feeling that, especially

    9 Mr. Radovic, put a lot of questions related to Dragan

    10 Papic, although he's not Dragan Papic's counsel. I am

    11 aware of Rule 90(H) of the Rules and I had the feelings

    12 that the principle expressed in that rule is that the

    13 cross-examination should remain within the scope of the

    14 examination-in-chief.

    15 You pointed out in these last few days that

    16 there are also exceptions indicated in the Rules, but

    17 it is important for us, when we prepare and carry out

    18 examination-in-chief, it is important for us to know

    19 whether the witness is going to be questioned on all of

    20 the elements to be found in written statements

    21 disclosed to the Defence.

    22 In this case, in this instance, I wonder

    23 whether we should limit ourselves to those points which

    24 are relevant to us. This is the very issue I wanted to

    25 put to you. I was seeking some clarification from the

  31. 1 Court because I had some questions as to the way this

    2 Rule was implemented.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: As far as I'm concerned, but

    4 I'm going to discuss this with my colleagues, the

    5 Defence is allowed to put questions related to the

    6 credibility of the witness, and that is a wide scope.

    7 MR. TERRIER: Quite.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: So they are entitled to check

    9 whether the witness is credible so they're allowed to

    10 go beyond the questions you raised.

    11 MR. TERRIER: Yes. Many questions were put

    12 as to the credibility of the witness. That's fine. I

    13 have no objection to that. That's quite legitimate for

    14 Defence counsel to do so. But I had the feeling,

    15 especially listening to the questions raised by

    16 Mr. Radovic, more so at the beginning of his

    17 cross-examination, that many areas were broached which

    18 were not areas that I had gone into in

    19 examination-in-chief. I'm wondering whether that is

    20 the rule, but I'm also wondering as to the scope of

    21 implementation and the use the Court intends to make of

    22 that.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: I personally feel that when

    24 there is a doubt, we must take the rights of the

    25 Defence into account. So if there is any doubt, the

  32. 1 advantage should go to the Defence which would raise

    2 relevant questions. But, of course, if you have the

    3 feeling that a question is being raised which is of no

    4 relevance because it goes beyond the scope of the

    5 examination-in-chief to start with, and also beyond the

    6 scope of credibility, then you are allowed to raise

    7 objections. But I personally would be more inclined to

    8 give the advantage to the Defence because they are

    9 allowed to test the statements made by the witness, and

    10 I think that can't be established just in abstract

    11 terms.

    12 My colleagues agree with me so much more so

    13 that we could add as an argument, as a further

    14 argument, that at this stage, the Court is not in a

    15 position to assess the relevance of a question. There

    16 may be questions put by the Defence for reasons that

    17 we're not aware of. So it may be that the Defence

    18 might want to raise questions which are relevant for

    19 the Defence of their client.

    20 However, in the future, if there are

    21 objections raised by the Prosecution, we could see

    22 whether there are any doubts as to the relevance of

    23 questions raised by the Defence when the Court would be

    24 entitled to ask the Defence why they think that the

    25 question is relevant for them.

  33. 1 That's the method we could decide to have.

    2 But in principle, we would be rather inclined to take

    3 due account of the rights of the Defence.

    4 MR. TERRIER: We shall indeed comply with

    5 your views, but I had another question. Mr. Radovic

    6 raised many questions related to Dragan Papic, although

    7 he's not Dragan Papic's counsel. I didn't want to butt

    8 in, but questions might be of relevance, questions he

    9 asked, but it was not up to Mr. Radovic to put them.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Mr. Radovic?

    11 MR. RADOVIC: Your Honour, the questioning

    12 was performed by Mr. Papic -- the first

    13 cross-examination was done by Mr. Papic's counsel. The

    14 question of the black flag and the black uniform is not

    15 just a question that refers to Mr. Papic but Ustasha

    16 uniforms and Ustasha symbols do not refer only to

    17 Papic. The issue of Ustasha insignia will turn up

    18 quite often during the proceedings, and as I said, most

    19 of the people involved in these proceedings do not know

    20 what Ustasha uniforms and insignia looked like.

    21 In Zagreb, we will get a book which shows

    22 what these uniforms and insignia look like, but I

    23 declare here that a black uniform was the uniform of a

    24 special unit of the Ustasha army which was called the

    25 Black Legion, and the Ustasha flag was never black, it

  34. 1 was red, white, and blue with a letter "U" and the

    2 Croatian coat of arms. So one story is being told

    3 here, but the reality is different, so I'm just trying

    4 to show that people are talking about things which they

    5 do not know anything about.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, I see. I think you made

    7 a good point. I think you're right in saying that this

    8 question was indeed relevant to the credibility of the

    9 witness and did not merely refer to Papic, to accused

    10 Dragan Papic.

    11 Yes, please.

    12 JUDGE MAY: It may be that Mr. Moskowitz can

    13 help as far as this is concerned because the common law

    14 rule, at least in the United Kingdom, is that counsel

    15 is not prevented from asking questions about another

    16 co-defendant. Whether it's wise to ask questions

    17 involving a co-defendant of course is another matter.

    18 But I don't think there can be a rule which prevents

    19 counsel as it were encroaching on another counsel's

    20 case and on what may involve a co-defendant, and the

    21 example which was just given is one which may be of

    22 general relevance, although in this particular part of

    23 the evidence, it related to one witness.

    24 MR. MOSKOWITZ: If I may respond, Your

    25 Honour?

  35. 1 I agree, in the American system, there is no

    2 rule that would prohibit co-counsel from asking

    3 questions, even if unwise questions, that would pertain

    4 to a co-defendant. I think our concern here is having

    5 six Defence attorneys in this case asking a witness the

    6 same series of questions, perhaps from a slightly

    7 different angle, regarding the same accused. It

    8 appears to me that we would risk having essentially

    9 ganging up on a witness on a particular issue.

    10 I think the example that Mr. Radovic gave

    11 about the black flag was a very legitimate line of

    12 questioning. We don't doubt that. But I do recall him

    13 asking a series of questions dealing only with whether

    14 or not this -- how this witness new Papic, how this

    15 witness could identify Papic. These questions, it

    16 seems to me, are more appropriately given by the

    17 counsel representing Papic and I think they were, and

    18 then from a different angle, counsel number 2 does the

    19 same thing and from a third angle counsel number 3 does

    20 it again, and I think our concern, while we don't want

    21 to unduly limit legitimate cross-examination, and I

    22 think it is important for credibility of witnesses to

    23 be adequately and thoroughly tested, there's no doubt

    24 about that, but I think there comes a point or a line

    25 beyond that that I think it becomes -- I won't say

  36. 1 witness harassment, but it just goes on too long and it

    2 becomes unfair to some of these witnesses who have to

    3 sit here for sometimes hours enduring it.

    4 I am looking for some way, I think, to have a

    5 legitimate balance between the witness's -- frankly,

    6 the witness's rights not to be harangued by one Defence

    7 attorney after another coming from different angles on

    8 essentially the same topic and the legitimate rights of

    9 the accused to have credibility tested. It seems to me

    10 that that line might legitimately be drawn in this case

    11 with making some sort of a rule that would limit

    12 questions that solely pertained to a Defendant to the

    13 lawyer representing that accused and, of course, there

    14 would be some flexibility because sometimes that line

    15 isn't so clear, as in the black flag example, but we do

    16 request that the Court give some consideration to

    17 establishing some limitation; otherwise, I fear that

    18 we're going to have some problems with witnesses being

    19 harassed and feeling that they're being harassed.

    20 JUDGE MAY: The danger of a rule is that you

    21 do injustice in the particular case, and I would have

    22 thought, with respect, that the right answer is that

    23 it's for the Court to determine in each case where the

    24 line is drawn between legitimate cross-examination and

    25 what becomes repetitive and oppressive to the witness,

  37. 1 and in each case, that will have to be judged.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Here I would take a different

    3 approach from my colleague, but you see here, this

    4 reflects the approach, the common law approach, and the

    5 typical continental European approach where we like

    6 principles, rules, and I think this also applies to

    7 Croatia, former Yugoslavia, where we have different

    8 legal training.

    9 I wonder whether we could probably try to

    10 think of a solution. We are here -- we are breaking

    11 new ground, of course, again. We can't apply either

    12 Croatian or British or Italian or French or Zambian law

    13 or American law, we have to think of law, a set of

    14 rules to be applied in the light of the basic

    15 principles of our Statute, namely, the right of the

    16 accused to a fair and expeditious trial.

    17 So therefore, we probably could think of some

    18 sort of broad guidelines and then, within those

    19 guidelines, which we would try to offer maybe next

    20 week, we could, on a case-by-case basis then decide if

    21 and when objections are raised according to the

    22 pragmatic approach suggested by Judge May. I wonder

    23 whether we could combine those two approaches, a sort

    24 of principled and pragmatic approach, but I agree with

    25 the Prosecution, that this is a difficult area. We

  38. 1 will try to come to some sort of wise and balanced

    2 solution which, of course, should never affect or

    3 curtail the rights of the Defence.

    4 May I suggest we now move on to our next

    5 legal counsel, Mrs. Glumac?

    6 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, thank

    7 you. I have no further questions, not because of the

    8 Prosecutor's remark, but because we have truly

    9 exhausted all the questions I was going to ask.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Any other

    11 counsel? No other counsel is going to ask questions?

    12 I wonder whether the Prosecutor would like to

    13 re-examine the witness?

    14 Re-examined by Mr. Terrier:

    15 Q. Mr. Rizvanovic, you were questioned a moment

    16 ago as to your knowledge of the Ustashe. Could you

    17 specify to the Court what this word "Ustashe" stands

    18 for for you, what it means?

    19 A. For me, these are criminals. That's what the

    20 word means.

    21 Q. Through whom or how did you get to hear about

    22 the Ustashe?

    23 A. I heard from the former war, the Second World

    24 War, I read in books what they had done, how they had

    25 done it, and so on.

  39. 1 Q. You were born in 1943, so you're too young to

    2 have experienced that time. Did you hear about the

    3 Ustashe through your parents?

    4 A. I read history when I went to school.

    5 Q. So when you saw this black flag flying from

    6 Dragan Papic's house, you associated that flag with

    7 what you knew about the Ustashe, didn't you?

    8 A. Something like that.

    9 MR. TERRIER: I have no further questions.

    10 Thank you very much, Mr. President. My apologies,

    11 Mr. President, two further questions, two additional

    12 questions. I'm sorry.

    13 Q. Mr. Radovic asked a question of

    14 Mr. Rizvanovic, and in answer to it, you said that you

    15 didn't meet with any representative of the Office of

    16 the Prosecutor between yesterday's hearing and this

    17 morning. I would like to clarify this. I don't know

    18 whether the transcript or the translation that I

    19 received was absolutely faithful. But I had the

    20 feeling that you said "No," that you didn't meet

    21 anybody in between. That's not right, is it, because

    22 you did meet with somebody, didn't you?

    23 A. Could you repeat the question?

    24 Q. The question is as follows: This morning,

    25 before the hearing began, did you meet with a

  40. 1 representative of the Office of the Prosecutor?

    2 A. I don't know how to say that. When I was

    3 coming here, you mean?

    4 Q. Indeed, when you were coming here this

    5 morning.

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Mr. Rizvanovic, would you mind looking at the

    8 photograph again? Could you once again, so as to avoid

    9 any ambiguity or any problem, any further problems,

    10 could you tell us in which house you were staying with

    11 your family prior to the 16th of April, 1993? Could

    12 you show it using the pointer?

    13 A. Before the 16th of April?

    14 Q. Yes.

    15 A. This is the cemetery, this is this house,

    16 this is that house. I was in this house next to the

    17 wood, on the left side. Here (indicating).

    18 Q. So this is the house which stands closest to

    19 the woods. Were there any other houses between yours

    20 and the forest?

    21 A. There was a house here, next to ours

    22 (indicating).

    23 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, he's not

    24 speaking into the microphone.

    25 MR. TERRIER: Thank you very much,

  41. 1 Mr. Rizvanovic. I have no further questions. Thank

    2 you.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Terrier, allow me one

    4 question. Do you intend to ask the witness whether he

    5 can identify any accused? I was thinking of Dragan

    6 Papic because he spoke about Dragan Papic. It's up to

    7 you.

    8 MR. TERRIER: Yes, we could ask this of the

    9 witness. Of course, the Tribunal will be able to

    10 ascertain to which extent -- the witness is full of

    11 emotions and has problems in identifying people.

    12 Q. Mr. Rizvanovic, can you hear me? Do you know

    13 where the accused are sitting in this courtroom?

    14 It might be necessary to locate everything.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, I'm aware. It might be

    16 better not to put the question that way. Do not ask

    17 where the accused are.

    18 MR. TERRIER: No, I didn't specify, I asked

    19 Mr. Rizvanovic whether he knew where the accused were.

    20 I do want to make sure that there is no confusion.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: You could ask whether he

    22 recognises anyone in this courtroom no matter where

    23 that person may sit or stand.

    24 MR. TERRIER:

    25 Q. Mr. Rizvanovic, do you recognise anybody in

  42. 1 this courtroom?

    2 A. Yes. Yes, yes, I do.

    3 Q. Could you name the person you recognise?

    4 A. Dragan Papic.

    5 Q. Would you mind pointing him to us?

    6 A. I'm looking at him. Over there.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: That's not enough.

    8 MR. TERRIER:

    9 Q. Please, you said that you were looking at

    10 him. But could you use your finger, point to him?

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: And say where he's sitting or

    12 standing.

    13 A. He's sitting, he's sitting.

    14 MR. TERRIER:

    15 Q. And where is he sitting in the courtroom?

    16 A. Next to the door.

    17 Q. Would you be able to describe his physical

    18 aspect?

    19 A. He has a beard, he had a beard before, and a

    20 little moustache.

    21 MR. TERRIER: I have no further questions.

    22 Thank you, Mr. President.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: No questions from the Court.

    24 I assume there's no objection to the witness being

    25 released. I see no objection.

  43. 1 Mr. Rizvanovic, you may now be released.

    2 (The witness withdrew)

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Terrier, we have another

    4 15 minutes. We could possibly use them to let the next

    5 witness in, or we're going to have a break now? What

    6 do you suggest?

    7 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Mr. President, our next

    8 witness is listed as Witness No. 3 on page 6 of our

    9 filing entitled "Prosecution Submission of Information

    10 Helpful for Trial," dated August 19, and this is a

    11 protected witness.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Number 3.

    13 MR. MOSKOWITZ: On page 6.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.

    15 MR. MOSKOWITZ: This is a protected witness

    16 who has requested face protection, voice protection,

    17 and pseudonym protection. We have discussed this

    18 matter with the Defence counsel, and they do not oppose

    19 this request. So at this time, we would request that

    20 those protective measures be granted for this witness.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: And it would be Witness A?

    22 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Witness A.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: I understand from the

    24 technicians they would prefer to ask to take a break

    25 now. It would facilitate the taking of the necessary

  44. 1 measures for the protection of the witness.

    2 So I suggest that we now break, and we come

    3 back in 30 minutes. So a quarter past eleven sharp

    4 with the witness in here. Thank you

    5 --- Recess taken at 10.46 a.m.

    6 --- On resuming at 11.27 a.m.

    7 (The witness entered court)

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. Could you

    9 please stand and read the solemn declaration?

    10 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone wasn't on.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Is it on now? Could you

    12 please read it again?

    13 THE INTERPRETER: But we can't hear him.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: The interpreters can't hear

    15 him.

    16 Maybe, meanwhile, the Prosecutor could show

    17 us his name on a slip of paper?

    18 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes, Your Honour. I'll

    19 tender this to the witness, to the usher.

    20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel,

    21 please.

    22 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes. I'm now tendering a

    23 slip of paper with the witness's name on it to the

    24 usher for showing.

    25 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number

  45. 1 42.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Does the microphone work

    3 now?

    4 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, yes. Yes, the

    5 technician has come and fixed the --

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry, Witness A. I would

    7 like, again, to ask you to stand and read once again

    8 the solemn declaration because we don't have it on our

    9 transcripts.

    10 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    12 truth.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Moskowitz?

    14 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, Mr. President.

    15 WITNESS A

    16 Examined by Mr. Moskowitz:

    17 Q. Good morning.

    18 A. Good morning.

    19 Q. I want to inform you again that you have been

    20 granted the protective measures that you have

    21 requested. I'll be asking you a series of questions,

    22 and I would like to ask you that if a response to any

    23 of my questions would, in any way, you feel, tend to

    24 identify you in some way, please feel free to say that

    25 before responding. Will you do that?

  46. 1 A. Yes, I will.

    2 Q. Would you tell the Court how old you are,

    3 please?

    4 A. Twenty-seven.

    5 Q. Now, you and your family are not originally

    6 from Ahmici; isn't that right?

    7 A. No, we're not. We're from eastern Bosnia.

    8 Q. When did you family settle in the village of

    9 Ahmici? Could you tell us that date?

    10 A. I don't know the exact date, but it was in

    11 the month of November 1992.

    12 Q. And your family, at that time, were refugees

    13 from the Foca area?

    14 A. Yes, my wife's family was from Foca, and my

    15 family originated from a place which I can't tell you

    16 the name of now.

    17 Q. Could you just tell us briefly what was

    18 happening in Foca that rendered your family refugees

    19 from that area?

    20 A. Well, after the houses of my family in

    21 eastern Bosnia were burned down due to the Chetnik

    22 Serbian aggression, my family was driven away and they

    23 had to seek refuge in the area of Central Bosnia.

    24 Q. Now, you've mentioned your family, and I

    25 don't want you to mention any names, but can you give

  47. 1 us an idea of what your family consisted of at that

    2 time, the relationships?

    3 A. You mean where we lived in the village of

    4 Ahmici?

    5 Q. I guess I'm asking you to give us an idea of

    6 what your family consisted of at that time. Did it

    7 consist of a father, a mother, a wife, and that kind of

    8 thing?

    9 A. Yes. I had a father, a mother, and three

    10 brothers. I also had a wife and a child, and my wife

    11 had her father, her mother, and two brothers.

    12 Q. Now, was this the family you were referring

    13 to, these group of people who settled in Ahmici as

    14 refugees in or about November of 1992?

    15 A. Yes. In November 1992, my mother and my two

    16 younger brothers, who were twins, arrived, and in the

    17 other house, my mother-in-law, my father-in-law and my

    18 wife, with our small child, settled, and one of their

    19 youngest sons; and in a house nearby, my wife's

    20 brother, with his wife and child, settled.

    21 Q. So your family settled basically in two

    22 separate houses in the Ahmici area in '92; would that

    23 be a fair statement?

    24 A. Yes, yes.

    25 Q. Were these houses close together, or were

  48. 1 they in different parts of the village?

    2 A. No, they were close to one another, some 40

    3 metres away from each other.

    4 Q. Now, at this time, where were you and what

    5 were you doing?

    6 A. I was in eastern Bosnia, in the area of

    7 eastern Bosnia on the mountain of Grebak near eastern

    8 Vojvodina. I was in the war theatre. I was a member

    9 of the army.

    10 Q. So you were fighting for the Bosnia army on

    11 the Serbian front.

    12 A. Yes, that's right.

    13 Q. Now, was there a time that you, I suppose

    14 like many other soldiers, were given permission to go

    15 and have some rest and relaxation or take some leave

    16 from the front and visit the family? Did that occur

    17 during this time period?

    18 A. Yes. I was in the war theatre for a long

    19 time. I hadn't been in Central Bosnia; I didn't know

    20 where my family was. First, they were somewhere near

    21 Sivrino Selo. When I arrived there, they had gone, and

    22 I learned that they had moved to the hamlet of Ahmici,

    23 and I found them there. That was in 1993, in February,

    24 towards the end of February, because when I arrived

    25 there, I found them there in the village of Ahmici.

  49. 1 Q. You mentioned the village of Sivrino Selo.

    2 That's a small village right outside Vitez, between

    3 Vitez and Ahmici on the valley road; is that right, if

    4 you know?

    5 A. Yes, I was in that village for the first time

    6 then. I'd never been to Vitez. I came there for the

    7 first time. I asked people where Sivrino Selo was;

    8 they told me. And when I arrived there, they said that

    9 my family had moved to the village of Ahmici.

    10 Q. Do you recall about what time of year this

    11 was or what year this was when you were granted leave

    12 from the front to go and visit your family? Do you

    13 remember when that was?

    14 A. Well, it was in the month of February. It

    15 was cold, there was snow. At least there was snow on

    16 the front. It was cold, it was winter.

    17 Q. Would this be in the year 1993?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Now, let's talk a little bit, if we could,

    20 about the technicalities of leaving a war front in

    21 Bosnia in 1992 or 1993 for a Bosnian soldier at that

    22 time.

    23 I take it that while you were at the front,

    24 you had a weapon that you were provided for use in

    25 defending the Bosnia territories from the Serbs. Would

  50. 1 that be a good assumption, you did have a weapon?

    2 A. Yes, that's correct. I had weapons, I had an

    3 automatic gun which I had there, and I had to leave

    4 there when I had -- when I went home. It was more

    5 needed on the front-line. We were not allowed to take

    6 our weapons with us.

    7 Q. So when you left to go on home leave sometime

    8 in February of '93, you had to leave your weapon behind

    9 you at the front; is that what you're saying?

    10 A. Yes, that's correct.

    11 Q. Was that normal practice in the army at that

    12 time, for soldiers going home on leave to go home

    13 without their weapons?

    14 A. Yes, it was the usual practice, because the

    15 army did not have enough weapons, so no one could take

    16 their weapons with them. This was the period when the

    17 army had more soldiers than weapons.

    18 Q. At that time, was there any concern as well

    19 that if soldiers took their weapons home with them,

    20 they might be stopped at checkpoints along the way and

    21 their weapons taken from them?

    22 A. Yes. There were some cases. Some of my

    23 fellow fighters from our unit had complained earlier

    24 that at the checkpoints near Kiseljak, their weapons

    25 had been taken away, pistols, guns, when they carried

  51. 1 them with them. Especially in January 1993, if they

    2 went, there were allegedly some clashes in Central

    3 Bosnia, and everybody said that weapons shouldn't be

    4 carried and that it's very hard to pass through in a

    5 uniform.

    6 Q. And when we talk about these checkpoints, was

    7 it your -- what was your understanding as to who was

    8 manning these checkpoints where weapons were being

    9 removed from soldiers returning from the front?

    10 A. The HVO police.

    11 Q. Earlier you mentioned that your family had,

    12 in fact, moved into two different houses. Close

    13 together but, nevertheless, two different houses in

    14 Ahmici.

    15 When you went to Ahmici and found your

    16 family, which house did you stay at? Maybe you can

    17 identify that by describing the family members you were

    18 with, not by name but just by relationship.

    19 A. I apologise. I forgot to tell you earlier

    20 that there were actually three houses, not two, because

    21 my wife's brother was in the third house, and I arrived

    22 in a house which was owned by a certain Enver Ahmic,

    23 and that house was inhabited by my wife with her child,

    24 my father-in-law, my mother-in-law, and their son.

    25 Q. And I take it your father and mother were in

  52. 1 a different house close by?

    2 A. Yes, they were nearby in a house close to the

    3 nearby woods. I don't know who the owner of the house

    4 was.

    5 MR. MOSKOWITZ: At this time, Your Honour, I

    6 would ask the usher to place on the ELMO an exhibit,

    7 which I'm sure the Court is familiar with; it is the

    8 blow-up of that part of the village of Ahmici. I guess

    9 my concern a little bit is whether this will compromise

    10 his protection and seek the guidance of the Court as to

    11 best to do this without compromising protective

    12 measures.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Are you going to ask the

    14 witness to identify his house?

    15 MR. MOSKOWITZ: It will be necessary for me

    16 to have him identify several houses.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. But since the

    18 transcripts are confidential.


    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. The registrar has

    21 suggested that we should go into a closed session for a

    22 few minutes so that the public gallery will not see

    23 anything, not even this photograph.

    24 (Closed session)

    25 (redacted)

  53. 1












    13 Pages 531 to 632 redacted - in closed session




    17 Whereupon proceedings adjourned at

    18 5.07 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

    19 the 21st day of August, 1998, at

    20 9.00 a.m.