Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1116

          1                 Thursday, 27 August, 1998

          2                 (Open session)

          3                 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

          4            THE REGISTRAR:  Case number IT-95-16-T, the

          5  Prosecutor versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic,

          6  Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic,

          7  Vladimir Santic, also known as "Vlado."

          8            JUDGE CASSESE:  Good morning.  We may now

          9  start.

         10            Mr. Moskowitz?

         11            MR. MOSKOWITZ:  Thank you, Mr. President.

         12  While we're waiting for the witness, I might alert the

         13  Court to our next week's schedule, which has been

         14  handed out to Defence lawyers today, and also of a

         15  slight change with regard to a witness we had on our

         16  schedule for the second week of trial, which we

         17  notified Defence counsel about after session

         18  yesterday.

         19            Witness number 8 on the list of last week we

         20  have decided not to call and will not be testifying.

         21  That is, I think, consistent with our continuous

         22  evaluation of the state of the evidence in an attempt

         23  to streamline.

         24            Therefore, the witness following witness

         25  number 8 on that list, Payam Akhavan, will then be

Page 1117

          1  testifying, we hope, by later today.  And then we will

          2  continue on with the list that we have now provided to

          3  the Court and to Defence counsel for next week and

          4  later this week as well.

          5            JUDGE CASSESE:  But the first witness is the

          6  one who is now here giving evidence, and we may hope

          7  that he will finish today.  In this case, we will start

          8  tomorrow with number 2 on the new list.

          9            MR. MOSKOWITZ:  Actually, we hope to get to

         10  number 2 on the new list today.

         11            JUDGE CASSESE:  Today, wonderful.  Thank

         12  you.

         13            We have prepared a list of the dates of

         14  hearings, which has been distributed to the parties,

         15  and then we will raise a fairly important matter at the

         16  end of the cross-examination and re-examination of the

         17  present witness.

         18                 (The witness entered court)

         19            MR. PULISELIC:  Mr. President?

         20            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes, Mr. Puliselic?

         21            MR. PULISELIC:  It seems to me that yesterday

         22  a minor mistake was made in the transcript on page 130,

         23  line 11.  It says in the transcript that Dragan Papic

         24  said to the witness that it was a Croatian house.

         25  That's how it is said in the transcript.  But the

Page 1118

          1  witness said that Dragan Papic said to the soldiers,

          2  who were supposedly there, to not touch that house

          3  because that was a Croatian house.  So according to the

          4  witness, Dragan Papic was addressing the soldiers and

          5  not the witness himself.

          6            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes, I think you're right,

          7  absolutely right.  I thank you for your comment, and we

          8  will check and make the necessary change in the

          9  transcript.  Thank you.

         10            Mr. Moskowitz?

         11            MR. MOSKOWITZ:  Thank you, Mr. President.

         12                 WITNESS:  FAHRUDIN AHMIC

         13                 Examined by Mr. Moskowitz:

         14       Q.   Good morning, Mr. Ahmic.

         15       A.   Good morning.

         16       Q.   Yesterday, we stopped at about the point that

         17  we were going to begin with the events immediately

         18  preceding April 16, 1993.  Before we get there, I would

         19  like to show you a couple of photographs, just so we

         20  can better visualise where your house was and some of

         21  your neighbours' houses were that you mentioned in your

         22  testimony.

         23            At this point, I would ask the usher, if he

         24  would, to show the witness this exhibit, please.

         25            THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number 76.

Page 1119

          1            MR. MOSKOWITZ:

          2       Q.   Mr. Ahmic, do you see your house in that

          3  photograph or what remains of your house, and could you

          4  point it out if you do?

          5       A.   Yes, I do see it.  It is this one.

          6       Q.   That would be the house on the left-hand side

          7  of that photograph; is that correct?

          8       A.   Yes, on the left-hand side.  I'm pointing at

          9  it with my right hand.

         10       Q.   Thank you.  Do you see another house there

         11  that you can identify to the right of your house?

         12       A.   This is Pero Papic's house here.

         13       Q.   That would be to the extreme left on the

         14  photograph; is that correct?

         15       A.   Yes, that's correct.

         16       Q.   Now, looking at the other side of the

         17  photograph, in the distance to the right of your house,

         18  is there a house that you can identify?

         19       A.   Yes.  This is Sulejman Ahmic's house.

         20       Q.   Would that be the house that Abdulah Ahmic

         21  lived in?

         22       A.   No.

         23       Q.   Do you see Abdulah Ahmic's house in that

         24  photograph or is it hidden?

         25       A.   I cannot see it.  I cannot see it here.  It

Page 1120

          1  should be somewhere next to my house.

          2       Q.   Now, just so we can correlate the photograph

          3  to Exhibit 75, which was the aerial blow-up, perhaps if

          4  the usher could show the witness Exhibit 75, the blow-up

          5  so he can do that.  Your house is house number 37; is

          6  that correct?

          7       A.   Yes.

          8       Q.   The photograph, then, would show your house

          9  as house number 37?

         10       A.   Yes.

         11            MR. MOSKOWITZ:  May I have the usher show the

         12  next photograph, please?

         13            THE REGISTRAR:  Prosecution Exhibit number

         14  77.

         15            MR. MOSKOWITZ:

         16       Q.   Again, do you see the photograph of your

         17  house or a picture of your house in that photograph?

         18       A.   Yes, I do.  This is it.  (Indicating).

         19       Q.   Do you see two houses directly to the left of

         20  your house depicted in that photograph?

         21       A.   Yes, I do.  This is Pero Papic's house, and I

         22  can see Marija's house, Marija Papic's house.

         23       Q.   So you say Marija Papic's house is directly

         24  behind Pero's house?

         25       A.   Yes, that's correct.

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          1       Q.   If you could look at the blow-up, Exhibit 75,

          2  which the usher will assist you with in a moment, would

          3  it be correct to say that "H" and "I" are Pero and

          4  Marija's house as depicted in that photograph?

          5       A.   Yes, Marija's house under "I" and Pero's

          6  house here, letter "H."

          7            MR. RADOVIC:  Mr. President?

          8            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes, Mr. Radovic?

          9            MR. RADOVIC:  Mr. President, once again I

         10  don't think that this question has been put correctly.

         11  The Prosecutor cannot ask whether it is correct that

         12  these houses belong to those specific owners.  If the

         13  Prosecutor wants to know who these specific houses

         14  belong to, then he should ask, "Who do houses under

         15  number or letter so and so belong to," otherwise, the

         16  Prosecutor is telling the witness both the position and

         17  the marks of the houses, as well as the owners' names.

         18            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes, Mr. Moskowitz, I think

         19  you should kindly refrain from putting leading

         20  questions.

         21            MR. MOSKOWITZ:  They were leading questions,

         22  I certainly admit that, although yesterday we did go

         23  through that aerial map, and I believe I asked him

         24  whose house was "H" and whose house was "I."  He

         25  provided that information of his own accord yesterday.

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          1  This was merely an attempt, I think, to get through

          2  this as quickly as possible.

          3            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes.

          4            JUDGE MAY:  Perhaps I could raise this with

          5  the Defence.  As I understood it, there wasn't any

          6  dispute about whose house is which.  If there is a

          7  dispute, then we ought to know.  If there's no dispute,

          8  then, of course, counsel can lead about it because it's

          9  not a matter which is, in any way, contentious.  But if

         10  it is disputed as to whose house is which, it may be

         11  helpful if you would tell the Prosecution so that

         12  eventually the Court is going to have an idea of whose

         13  house is which and, if necessary, if there's a dispute

         14  about it, we would have to decide it, if it's an

         15  important matter.

         16            Perhaps the Defence might like to put some

         17  thought to that.

         18            MR. MOSKOWITZ:

         19       Q.   Now, Mr. Ahmic, looking again at Exhibit 75,

         20  once again, would you point out the little alleyway or

         21  street that you took when you were returning to your

         22  home following the October incident and met the Papics,

         23  including Dragan Papic, by the machine gun?

         24       A.   I took this direction, this alley.  Well, I

         25  didn't say that I met Papic with a machine gun.  Papic

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          1  was in the bunker with Simo Vidovic, while Vinko

          2  Vidovic and Dragan Papic, they were approaching me from

          3  the bunker, and they stopped me somewhere in the

          4  middle.

          5       Q.   Thank you.  I'm sorry for that misstatement.

          6  Could you, just for clarity's sake -- I would ask the

          7  usher if he would place Exhibit 76, the photograph, on

          8  the ELMO so that we can see where that little lane is.

          9  This is not a very excellent picture of this, but can

         10  you see in that photograph the lane that you were

         11  walking down that day, and point it out for us,

         12  please?

         13       A.   Yes, this is the lane, towards my house.

         14       Q.   I think you said yesterday that you noticed

         15  that there were some blocks that were being used for

         16  the bunker that you recognised as belonging to your

         17  house.  Where did those blocks come from?  Were they in

         18  front of your house or inside your house or where?

         19       A.   They were brought from in front of my house.

         20  The blocks were here in front of my house.  They were

         21  brought here to Papic's house where they had put up a

         22  bunker using the blocks.

         23       Q.   All right, thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Usher.

         24  Now, before proceeding on to the next events, I did

         25  want to clarify one thing with you that we talked about

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          1  yesterday, and that has to do with the incident in

          2  October '92 and about the barricade.

          3            You may have misunderstood my question when I

          4  asked you, "What did you know about that barricade

          5  situation," and my question specifically to you is, and

          6  I want to make it clear, not what did you know

          7  personally from what you saw that day, but what you

          8  found out about it, either that day or on subsequent

          9  days, from talking to people.

         10            What do you know about that barricade

         11  situation?  What had happened on October 20th, 1992?

         12       A.   I, myself, was not at the barricade; however,

         13  I heard from other people talking about it.  They said

         14  that the barricade was erected by the BiH army close to

         15  the cemetery.  It was erected by the BiH army, as I

         16  heard, because HVO were approaching Novi Travnik from

         17  Busovaca or from Kacuni or wherever, but they were told

         18  that many HVO troops were approaching because Novi

         19  Travnik had been attacked, and that that barricade was

         20  put up, yet we were attacked.

         21            We were dispersed, and this took only some 60

         22  minutes, 40 minutes.  We were dispersed.  We were

         23  beaten.  The HVO took over the whole area.  We withdrew

         24  and we fled to the upper Ahmici.  This is what I heard,

         25  but I was not there, and I saw nothing myself.

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          1       Q.   Do you know whether or not, following this

          2  incident in which the HVO broke through the barricade

          3  and essentially were victorious that day, do you know

          4  whether there was any requirement that Muslim citizens

          5  of Ahmici turn over their weapons?

          6       A.   I don't know when they were required to turn

          7  over the weapons, but I know that the population of

          8  Ahmici were required to turn over the weapons.

          9       Q.   Do you know who was requiring them to turn

         10  over the weapons?

         11       A.   Well, their commanders were requiring it.

         12  Nenad Santic and -- well, I don't know who else

         13  specifically.  I just know that the HVO commanders

         14  insisted that the weapons be turned over by the BiH

         15  army who, anyway, had very few weapons, only the

         16  weapons that were brought from Slimeha.  When Slimeha

         17  was mined at that time, the Territorial Defence went up

         18  there to fetch the weapons that were half burnt,

         19  destroyed, hardly functional, and they were

         20  subsequently repaired.  And that's the weapon that we

         21  had.

         22       Q.   Were there any threats about what would

         23  happen if weapons were not turned over that you are

         24  aware of?

         25       A.   There were threats personally.  Dragan, on

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          1  that day, when he was sitting at my table, he said to

          2  me, "Unless you turn over the weapons, you'll be

          3  shelled.  You'll be destroyed," simply, all of us up

          4  there.

          5       Q.   This would be Dragan Papic who said this to

          6  you?

          7       A.   Yes.  Dragan Papic told me this in the

          8  morning when I came back.  We were sitting at the

          9  table.  He, Vinko Vidovic, my wife, and myself were

         10  seated around the table.

         11       Q.   This is where Mr. Papic had that bomb fuse

         12  and Mr. Vidovic had the card?

         13       A.   Yes.  He was showing me the card indicating

         14  that he was a member of the special units of either the

         15  Jokers or the police down in the Bungalow.  I

         16  personally did not touch the card.  He would just show

         17  it to me, holding it in his hand.

         18       Q.   Now, following the conflict at the barricade

         19  in '92, did you have an opportunity to observe any

         20  damage done to the minaret of the mosque located in

         21  Ahmici, the lower mosque?

         22       A.   That morning when I took my wife and my

         23  children towards Ahmici, I noticed the upper part of

         24  the minaret being destroyed.  That's the very top of

         25  the mosque.

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          1       Q.   If I may impose on the usher again, could the

          2  witness be shown Exhibits 28 and 29, please?  Before

          3  you point, just tell us what that is, please.  This is

          4  Exhibit 28, which has already been admitted into

          5  evidence.

          6       A.   This was the mosque before.  That's the way

          7  we built it.  When the village was attacked, the upper

          8  part, the uppermost part of the mosque was hit, and

          9  there were holes caused by the bullets all over the

         10  minaret.

         11       Q.   The next exhibit, please, this would be 29

         12  already admitted into evidence.  What does this show,

         13  Mr. Ahmic?

         14       A.   Well, these are the holes, and the upper

         15  part -- well, probably it's missing because it was

         16  destroyed, not the whole minaret, but only the

         17  uppermost part that I had shown you on the earlier

         18  photograph.  This part was not destroyed entirely.  It

         19  was only the upper part.

         20       Q.   Does this picture accurately show at least

         21  part of the damage done to the minaret after the

         22  incident?

         23       A.   Yes.  This does show some of the damage, but

         24  further up, there was a part which was also only

         25  slightly damaged.

Page 1128

          1       Q.   Was the minaret repaired sometime after the

          2  October incident?

          3       A.   It was repaired.

          4       Q.   Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Usher.

          5       Q.   If I may, I would like to go back to one

          6  morning when my wife, when she got up.  She noticed

          7  through the window my neighbours, the Croats, they were

          8  all dressed in camouflage uniforms, and they had

          9  weapons with them.  At that time, she summoned me to

         10  come to the window and have a look.

         11            I got up too, and I saw this picture of my

         12  neighbours, in weapons, carrying out of Mario Papic's

         13  house certain crates, military boxes, crates.  What was

         14  inside, I do not know, but they were wearing camouflage

         15  uniforms, they had weapons.  And at that time I told my

         16  wife, "Get ready, you and the children, and let's all

         17  go to Upper Ahmici.  I will, however, stay here to see

         18  what was going on."

         19            At that time, I knew nothing about what was

         20  going to happen, but I noticed, when I went out, there

         21  were Ivo Papic, Dragan Papic, Mario Papic, Zoran Papic,

         22  all of them were there dressed, with weapons.

         23            I went there and I asked the neighbours,

         24  "What is going on?"  At that time Ivo Papic told me

         25  that the Bosnian army had attacked Busovaca, Rovna,

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          1  Kovacevic, and that a massacre is being committed

          2  there.  However, I told them that I had no knowledge of

          3  that, and I asked them, "What shall I do now?"  At that

          4  time Ivo Papic said, "There's no life together with you

          5  any more.  Get lost and beat it to your people up

          6  there, and tell Sakib Ahmic," and he was his very good

          7  friend, that, "He should never be coming back to me.

          8  He shouldn't come here and cry."

          9            My wife and my children had left for Upper

         10  Ahmici, and after this talk with my neighbours, I

         11  decided to go and visit Sakib Ahmic, and I had told him

         12  what Ivo had said to me.  He simply said, "Well,

         13  Fahrudin, I cannot believe this."  I turned around and

         14  went away, and went up to Urcevihe to stay with my

         15  people.

         16       Q.   Do you have an idea of when this incident

         17  took place?

         18       A.   I know they told me when Rovna, Busovaca and

         19  Kovacevic was attacked, but I really cannot recall the

         20  date.

         21       Q.   Can you say whether it was before or after

         22  the conflict in October?

         23       A.   That was after this first conflict, at the

         24  time when we were still living together.  At least

         25  that's how I can recall it.

Page 1130

          1       Q.   And just for clarity too, you mentioned Sakib

          2  Ahmic.  Which Sakib are you referring to?

          3       A.   I was referring to Bajricin's Sakib Ahmic,

          4  who was the best friend of Ivo Papic's.

          5       Q.   This is the Sakib who's related to Abdulah

          6  Ahmic, is that correct?

          7       A.   Yes.  He was Abdulah's uncle.

          8       Q.   Now, I want to focus your attention on the

          9  day before April 16, 1993.  Do you recall seeing

         10  anything unusual that day that raised your suspicions

         11  that something might happen the following day?

         12       A.   On the 15th of April, that day my

         13  mother-in-law visited me, with her daughter, and the

         14  daughter told me that she had seen two uniformed

         15  soldiers on a motorbike.  They had camouflage

         16  uniforms.  One of them had the BiH army flag fixed to

         17  the motorbike.  They would drive up and down the road.

         18  And she also said that they were yelling while driving

         19  up and down, and they yelled at her.

         20            That day, she went to fetch her other sister,

         21  who was married, at the station, in the upper part, and

         22  she brought her to my house, together with her child.

         23            On the eve, I went out to collect some wood,

         24  and my mother-in-law came out too.  Marija talked to

         25  her.  She asked her, "How are you," "What's going on,"

Page 1131

          1  things like that.

          2            After that we went back to the house, and we

          3  saw, both my wife, myself and all the others.  We saw

          4  through the window that Pero's wife had packed her

          5  luggage, a car came to fetch her, and she and her child

          6  were taking the luggage with them, left for Zenica.

          7  However, they couldn't get as far as Zenica because

          8  there was a block on the road.  Therefore, they had to

          9  turn towards Busovaca.

         10            My wife, at that time, said, "Something is in

         11  the offing, this is no good."  However, I told her that

         12  I would go up to the upper part of the village, to my

         13  commanding officers, and ask them what was the news.

         14  And that's what I did.

         15            I went up there to the mosque to pray, and on

         16  my way to the mosque I met Vinko Vidovic, and I saw him

         17  packing up the luggage, the belongings.  A car came and

         18  his wife and Vinko's children all left.

         19            In the mosque, I told my co-believers that

         20  the situation was not good.  My neighbours were

         21  fleeing.  They were simply going somewhere.  Where, I

         22  didn't know.  They responded by saying that I was

         23  panicking and that I shouldn't cause panic among the

         24  people, that I should go home and what did I fear.

         25  However, I told them, "I am not afraid, but I have a

Page 1132

          1  house full of children and women. I am alone.  I'm the

          2  only adult male in the house."  Their reply was, "If

          3  one has to defend one's house, it should be defended at

          4  the threshold."  When I asked these leaders of mine,

          5  they said if I was afraid to sleep down there, that I

          6  should go to the upper village.  And after prayers, I

          7  returned home.

          8       Q.   Did you go to the -- I'm sorry, go ahead.

          9       A.   When I came home, my wife asked me, "What's

         10  new?"  I didn't say anything.  I just said there's

         11  nothing.  No one knows anything about anything.  So we

         12  had a talk as to what we should do, because it was

         13  difficult for the eight of us to go anyplace.  If I

         14  didn't have my mother-in-law, and my sister-in-law and

         15  the children, I would have gone to the upper village,

         16  but as they were staying with us, I stayed at home.  We

         17  spent the night there, and for my own safety I went

         18  outside from 10.00 to 12.00, watching to see whether

         19  there were any suspicious movements, any signs that the

         20  situation was worsening.  I saw nothing.

         21            I went back into the house.  My wife packed a

         22  red bag.  I was a bit irritated.  I said, "What are you

         23  doing?  Why are you packing?  There's nothing."  And

         24  she said "Never mind, just in case."  And I went to

         25  bed.

Page 1133

          1            In the morning, I was awakened by the sound

          2  of fire.  I jumped out of bed, as did my mother-in-law

          3  and everyone else in the house.  "What is this," she

          4  asked.  I said, "I don't know what it can be."  And she

          5  said, "It's a war, children."

          6            I ran out to the veranda.  I looked around.

          7  There was no one.  I looked at my neighbours.  There

          8  was no one.  I felt shells falling, all kinds of

          9  weapons were being fired, then I went back inside and I

         10  said to my wife and children, that they should go into

         11  the cellar in case the house were to be shelled,

         12  because the upper floor had still not been completed.

         13  So to avoid any injury, I told them all to go into the

         14  basement where they would be safer.  My wife said, "No,

         15  we won't go into the cellar, we want to flee into Upper

         16  Ahmici."  The only thing I said was, "Get out of the

         17  house.  Don't carry anything, just run towards Upper

         18  Ahmici."  I stayed behind to lock the house, the

         19  cellar, and to look around to see whether there was

         20  anyone.

         21            While they were fleeing towards the road, I

         22  locked the cellar and the house, and I was standing

         23  around the corner of my house.  I didn't see anyone.

         24  And as I was running towards the road, I crossed the

         25  road, I turned to the left and to the right, and as I

Page 1134

          1  looked to the right, I noticed, next to Ivo's house,

          2  two soldiers bending down.

          3            I saw the glimmer of fire coming from a

          4  firearm from Dragan Papic's window.  Then I ran on from

          5  there.  I caught up with my wife, my mother-in-law, and

          6  the children and all the others who were fleeing.  When

          7  I caught up with my wife, she said, "Take the little

          8  girl's back, please."  I didn't manage to reach the

          9  little girl.  I was already hit.

         10            When I was hit, I thought -- I said, "Look,

         11  I've been wounded.  Lie down, everyone."  And then I

         12  saw, coming from Mehmed Ahmic's and Dragan Papic's

         13  house, the shooting was coming from there.  From around

         14  the corner of Mehmed Ahmic's house I also saw fire

         15  coming from a weapon.

         16            As I was running with my family, my wife,

         17  children, my mother-in-law.  We were running towards

         18  the upper mosque.  And I felt fire coming from up there

         19  somewhere, so I knew I couldn't go in that direction.

         20  So I ran into Hilmija Ahmic's house, carrying my arm

         21  because I thought that it had been broken.

         22            When I entered, I saw a house full of women

         23  and children.  Everybody was asking everybody else what

         24  was happening.  I laid down on a bench.  This was next

         25  to the road along which I had come.  No one dared help

Page 1135

          1  me.  I was asking for help, but no one dared to dress

          2  my wounds.  They were afraid.  They just tied up my

          3  hand so as to stop the flow of blood.

          4            I told them then, "We have no way out, but

          5  call UNPROFOR up.  They're the only ones that can up to

          6  us.  We have no other chance."  Then Hilmija's

          7  daughter-in-law called up Hilmija's daughter, who was a

          8  judge in Zenica, telling her to address the UNPROFOR

          9  for aid for Ahmici, and that's what indeed happened.

         10  She called up.  Whether she got her on the phone or

         11  not, I can't remember.

         12            Later on, my wife asked me whether I needed

         13  any assistance.  I told her, "Go -- you go and save

         14  yourself and the children, and leave me behind."

         15  However, she sent her sister to stay with me, and she

         16  stayed throughout until the UNPROFOR arrived.

         17            When the UNPROFOR arrived, they treated me.

         18  They put me on an infusion and they dressed my wounds,

         19  intravenous infusion.  I asked them to transfer me to

         20  the hospital.  And there was an interpreter with them.

         21  His answer was that they were not allowed to help

         22  anyone, because those were the orders they had received

         23  from the Croatian army, and they left.

         24            I don't know how much time went by.  I was

         25  lying there.  Hilmija's windows had been protected.

Page 1136

          1  The windows facing the street were protected with

          2  wooden planks five centimetres thick.  It was exposed

          3  to fire, and they were using incendiary bullets.

          4  Regardless of their protection, one of these bullets

          5  entered and set fire to a couch, not the one I was

          6  lying on, and it started burning.  I was alone just

          7  then in the room, so I cried out, "The house is on

          8  fire."  Hilmija and Ismet Pezer entered crawling,

          9  crawled in and put out the fire that had started

         10  burning.

         11            After a little while, the UNPROFOR arrived.

         12  This time they took me, and someone else was there, a

         13  woman, lying above me.  Allegedly it was Nedira Pezer.

         14  I didn't say that they took a photograph of me when

         15  UNPROFOR was treating me.  I forgot to mention that.

         16  They took a photograph of me then.

         17            And when they transported me to the hospital,

         18  they said to me everything would be okay.  And on the

         19  way there, I think that we were going through the town

         20  of Nova Bila, where we were stopped.  They wanted to

         21  take me to the hospital.  There was some kind of

         22  misunderstanding.  And then they took me to Stari

         23  Travnik, to the hospital there, that's where I was

         24  treated.

         25       Q.   I'll ask the usher to place 75 on the ELMO.

Page 1137

          1  Thank you.

          2            Just to clarify a few things, Mr. Ahmic,

          3  could you, with the pointer, demonstrate the route of

          4  travel you and your family took as you fled your house

          5  towards Upper Ahmici?

          6       A.   Along this road.

          7       Q.   And I believe you testified that you got to

          8  the road.  And did you cross that road, the main road,

          9  the Vitez/Bucovaca main road?

         10       A.   Yes, I crossed it.

         11       Q.   And is there an indication on the map, or can

         12  you indicate to us about where you think you were when

         13  you were hit with the bullet?

         14       A.   Here, between Omer's house and Sakib's

         15  stable.  Somewhere here between Sakib's stable and

         16  Omer's house.  That is where it happen.  I can't tell

         17  you exactly, but there.

         18       Q.   Approximately where that "X" and arrow is on

         19  the exhibit in front of you would be fairly accurate

         20  where you were -- accurately show where you were,

         21  approximately, where you were struck; is that right?

         22       A.   Yes, yes, somewhere just there.

         23       Q.   What side -- if you can recall, what side of

         24  your body was struck with the bullet, your left side or

         25  your right side?

Page 1138

          1       A.   My right arm.  This is where the bullet

          2  entered, and this is where it came out, and you see

          3  what my hand is like now.

          4       Q.   So you still --

          5       A.   This is where it entered, and this is where

          6  it exited.

          7       Q.   Were you struck in any other part of your

          8  body with gunfire at that time?

          9       A.   I was struck here in the right hip.

         10       Q.   Now, you said that you went to Hilmija's

         11  house.  Could you shows us where on this exhibit, after

         12  you were injured, where on this exhibit Hilmija's house

         13  is?

         14       A.   Here, here.

         15       Q.   And that would be house 15 on the blow-up; is

         16  that correct?

         17       A.   Yes, yes.

         18       Q.   Now, you also said that you saw firing coming

         19  from Mehmed's house.  Do you see that house on the

         20  blow-up in front of you, and if so, could you describe

         21  what number it is?

         22       A.   From here, number 3.

         23       Q.   And I believe you said you also saw flashes

         24  of fire coming from the Papic house.  Which Papic house

         25  were you referring to, if you could point to it,

Page 1139

          1  please?

          2       A.   This is Papic's house.

          3       Q.   That would be house marked "A".  That would

          4  be Ivo Papic's house; is that right?

          5       A.   Yes, Ivo Papic's.  Both Ivo and Dragan live

          6  there, Dragan Papic lives there.

          7       Q.   Were you armed on that day?

          8       A.   No, I never had a firearm.  I didn't have a

          9  uniform.  I felt so sure that I didn't need it, and

         10  that this would never happen.  At least as far as the

         11  Croatian side and the Muslim side were concerned, I

         12  could never imagine that this would happen between us.

         13       Q.   Who was near you when you were shot in the

         14  elbow and in your side?  Who were you close to?

         15       A.   I remember my wife, that she stopped me,

         16  saying, "Please carry this red bag," which the little

         17  girl was carrying, and that is when I was hit.  And

         18  then I said, "Lie down, I have been wounded, they are

         19  shooting."  And that is when I looked and saw the flash

         20  of fire coming from Mehmed's house, and we could hear

         21  the shrapnel hitting the iron door of Omer Pezer's

         22  house.  And they were shooting at me, so I immediately

         23  fled from there.

         24       Q.   Which house is Omer Pezer's house?

         25       A.   It is here, somewhere here.

Page 1140

          1       Q.   Now, you mentioned your wife was near you.

          2  Do you recall how she was dressed that day?

          3       A.   Believe me, I don't know.  I don't know.  I

          4  know from the photograph I was wearing a sweater, but I

          5  do not recall anything about the way people were

          6  dressed.

          7       Q.   Were there any children close by you and your

          8  wife when you were shot?

          9       A.   I don't remember anything, how far from me

         10  they were, but they were there, close by.  The

         11  children, and my wife, and mother-in-law and my

         12  sister-in-law, they were all close by.  I had reached

         13  them.  I had caught up with them and when I slowed

         14  down, when I reached them, that was when I was hit,

         15  when my woman told me to pick up the bag.  And before I

         16  managed to pick it up, I was hit.

         17            MR. MOSKOWITZ:  May I ask the usher at this

         18  point to show the witness the next photograph?

         19            THE REGISTRAR:  Prosecution Exhibit 78.

         20            MR. MOSKOWITZ:

         21       Q.   Mr. Ahmic, I believe this is Exhibit 78,

         22  which has been placed on the ELMO.

         23            THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, 78.

         24            MR. MOSKOWITZ:

         25       Q.   Do you recognise what that picture shows and,

Page 1141

          1  if so, please tell us?

          2       A.   I recognise that it was struck with firearms,

          3  that it had been burnt.  I know that I went inside into

          4  this house, and I lay here next to this window against

          5  this wall.  That is where the couch was, and it went in

          6  the shape of a letter "L."

          7       Q.   Do you see pockmarks outside that house?

          8       A.   Yes, I do.  I see earmarks left by firearms.

          9  Yes, I can see the pockmarks.

         10            MR. MOSKOWITZ:  May I ask the usher to show

         11  the next series of photographs?

         12            JUDGE CASSESE:  I'm sorry.  May I ask you to

         13  ask the witness whose house this was?

         14            MR. MOSKOWITZ:  Oh, I'm sorry.

         15       Q.   Again, whose house is this?

         16       A.   It is Hilmija Ahmic's house.

         17       Q.   You have the blow-up right in front of you,

         18  Mr. Ahmic, and if you can look at that for a second.

         19  Hilmija Ahmic's house, if you could point to it and

         20  give us the number on the blow-up?

         21       A.   It is number 15.  Here it is (indicating).

         22            MR. MOSKOWITZ:  Thank you.

         23            THE REGISTRAR:  Prosecution Exhibit 79.

         24            MR. MOSKOWITZ:

         25       Q.   I think you indicated that some photographs

Page 1142

          1  were taken in Hilmija's house.  What does this show?

          2       A.   This picture shows me when UNPROFOR came and

          3  gave me first aid.

          4       Q.   Do you have an idea approximately what time

          5  UNPROFOR came?

          6       A.   Approximately at about 11.00.

          7       Q.   And your family had already fled to upper

          8  Ahmici by the time UNPROFOR came; is that right?

          9       A.   They had fled to upper Ahmici thanks to

         10  UNPROFOR, because they gave them the chance to get

         11  there.

         12            MR. MOSKOWITZ:  Could we have the next

         13  exhibit, please?

         14            THE REGISTRAR:  Prosecution Exhibit 80.

         15            MR. MOSKOWITZ:

         16       Q.   Again, if you could tell us what this picture

         17  shows and, perhaps, tell us who these people are in the

         18  picture, if you know?

         19       A.   This was the owner of the house, Hilmija

         20  Ahmic.  This was his daughter-in-law.  This was a

         21  neighbour, Pezer, who lived across the road from

         22  Hilmija.  I don't remember her first name.  This is me,

         23  and I was being treated.  I think that this was the

         24  interpreter and, with him, an UNPROFOR officer.

         25       Q.   "The interpreter" meaning someone who could

Page 1143

          1  speak the Bosnian language with you and you could

          2  communicate with to UNPROFOR?

          3       A.   Yes, who came with the UNPROFOR.

          4       Q.   I see that in the photograph the interpreter

          5  is dressed like a soldier.  Is that how you remember it

          6  as well?

          7       A.   I don't remember him.

          8            MR. MOSKOWITZ:  Could we have the final

          9  picture, please?

         10            THE REGISTRAR:  Prosecution Exhibit 81.

         11       A.   This is the same owner, Hilmija Ahmic.  He

         12  was the owner of the house.  And as I just said, this

         13  was the, I think, interpreter with UNPROFOR.  This is

         14  Hilmija's daughter-in-law, and this, I don't know, I

         15  can't recognise her.

         16            MR. MOSKOWITZ:

         17       Q.   The woman who has her hands on her face, the

         18  daughter-in-law, was she the one who called Zenica?

         19       A.   Yes, she called Zlatija, Hilmija's daughter,

         20  asking her to call up UNPROFOR.

         21       Q.   Were you in a great deal of pain at that

         22  time?

         23       A.   Of course I was, because my hand was almost

         24  blown off.

         25       Q.   Did you remain conscious that day, all day?

Page 1144

          1       A.   I was conscious all the time, even in

          2  hospital.  I didn't lose consciousness at all.

          3       Q.   Do you know what kind of hospital you were

          4  taken to in Novi Travnik or in Travnik?

          5       A.   I was taken to Stari Travnik, the hospital

          6  there.  The hospital I was accommodated in, there were

          7  HVO soldiers, BiH army soldiers.  We were all in the

          8  same hospital.  We were all being treated there.

          9       Q.   When were you reunited with your family, if

         10  you could tell us quickly?

         11       A.   Twenty days later, roughly, I was transferred

         12  to Zenica, and when we were being transferred, they

         13  used small coaches.  I don't remember exactly how many

         14  of us there were.  The small bus was full.  We were

         15  stopped at Ovnak.  They held us there for an hour.  The

         16  HVO, their army, they eventually let us go to Zenica,

         17  but it was hard.

         18            When I was accommodated in the hospital in

         19  Zenica, only then did I learn about my wife and

         20  children.  And then they looked for me in the hospital,

         21  and they found me.

         22       Q.   Were they all right?  Did they survive, your

         23  wife and children?

         24       A.   They survived.  All of them are okay.

         25       Q.   I think you said that when you were placed in

Page 1145

          1  the ambulance, there was a woman in there already.  You

          2  thought her name was Nedira.  Did you have a chance or

          3  an ability to observe her injuries at all?

          4       A.   I couldn't see, but I heard that she had been

          5  hit in the head.  When I left the hospital, I learned

          6  that she had been hit in the head.

          7       Q.   Now, I just want to go back for a second to

          8  the day before and clarify a couple of things.  You

          9  talked about a motorcycle going up and down the road

         10  the day before.  Did you, yourself --

         11       A.   Yes.

         12       Q.   -- see the motorcycle?

         13       A.   No, I didn't see it myself.  It is my

         14  sister-in-law who told me about it when she arrived at

         15  my house.

         16       Q.   You also talked about meeting Vinko Vidovic

         17  on the way to the mosque that evening.

         18       A.   When I was heading for the mosque from the

         19  road, I saw Vinko Vidovic, his wife, and his children

         20  getting ready to leave, and a car was waiting for them

         21  to leave.  Where they were leaving for, I don't know,

         22  but I noticed that they were leaving in the direction

         23  of Zenica.  And since the road was blocked by stones,

         24  they couldn't go to Zenica, so they probably left for

         25  Busovaca.

Page 1146

          1       Q.   That's what you assume.  You don't know that

          2  for a fact, is that right, that they were blocked?

          3       A.   I don't know.  That's what I assume.

          4       Q.   When you say they left for Zenica, in what

          5  direction on the valley road would they have to go to

          6  go to Zenica, towards the cemetery or towards Vitez?

          7       A.   They started towards the cemetery.

          8       Q.   And that was the direction that you saw them

          9  travel, so you assume they were going to Zenica?

         10       A.   Yes.  I assumed that they then had to go to

         11  Busovaca because they couldn't go to Zenica.  You know,

         12  a lot of avalanches were there blocking the road, and

         13  they couldn't go as far as Zenica.

         14       Q.   Now, do you recall giving a statement to an

         15  investigator in 1995 about some of these things?

         16       A.   I recall a statement that I made.

         17       Q.   Do you remember whether you were spoken to

         18  for a long time during the time you gave the statement

         19  or were you spoken to for a short time or do you recall

         20  at all?

         21       A.   I can only recall that I was fetched by

         22  somebody asking me to make a statement in connection

         23  with Ahmici, and I went with them, not knowing what

         24  sort of a statement I was supposed to give and why I

         25  was supposed to give this statement.

Page 1147

          1            However, I went with them.  I gave this

          2  statement.  I cannot recall where I gave it, and I

          3  really cannot remember how long I was speaking, because

          4  my arm really hurt me.  I was in pain.  I wasn't

          5  focused really.  I had lost my house, all of my

          6  belongings, and I just couldn't concentrate at that

          7  time.  I was in pain.  As I said before, my arm was

          8  really hurting me, and I couldn't focus when I was

          9  making this statement.

         10       Q.   Did the investigator speak to you in your

         11  language or was he speaking English, as far as you

         12  could tell?

         13       A.   What language he spoke, I do not know, but

         14  there was an interpreter.  Whether a man or a woman, I

         15  cannot recall either, because I really didn't feel the

         16  need.  I wasn't focused while giving the statement.

         17       Q.   Do you recall, one way or the other, whether

         18  the statement was read over to you after you gave your

         19  statement?

         20       A.   I cannot recall that.  It may have been read

         21  to me, but I really cannot remember that.  I cannot

         22  remember anything about this.

         23       Q.   Have you now had a chance, in the last

         24  several days, to review and look at that statement?

         25       A.   Yes.  I have had an opportunity to do it.  I

Page 1148

          1  saw it.  I reviewed it, and I was shocked by the

          2  statement, because what is said in the statement, it

          3  really causes pain in me, because I have really had

          4  very many unpleasant experiences.

          5       Q.   Did you think that there were some mistakes

          6  in the statement, as you read it over recently?

          7       A.   When the attorney was reading this statement

          8  to me, I noticed mistakes, and there are things in the

          9  statement that I had never said.

         10       Q.   Are there some things you specifically recall

         11  now that you think were mistakes in the statement that

         12  you would like to clarify at this point?

         13       A.   Well, as far as the situation when I was

         14  wounded is concerned, that's where I was really

         15  confused.  I could never get to Hilmija's house with my

         16  family.  I couldn't get into the house.  I supposedly

         17  asked the commanding officer to give me a weapon or

         18  something.  I really cannot understand why this is in

         19  the statement, because I could never say this.  I was

         20  not wounded there.  I was not there with the family.  I

         21  ran into this house on my own.

         22       Q.   I think you're referring to a sentence in the

         23  statement that indicates that you had gone to Hilmija's

         24  house before you were wounded, left Hilmija's house and

         25  then were wounded after leaving Hilmija's house, and

Page 1149

          1  then returned again.  You're saying that that is just

          2  not accurate; is that right?

          3       A.   Yes.

          4            MR. MOSKOWITZ:  May I have just one second,

          5  Mr. President?

          6            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes, please.

          7            MR. MOSKOWITZ:  Those are all the questions I

          8  have.  At this point, we would offer into evidence

          9  Exhibits 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, and 81, I believe, are

         10  all of them.

         11            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  Mr. Pavkovic?

         12            MR. PAVKOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.

         13  Mr. President, I would like to put a few questions to

         14  this witness myself, and then Petar Puliselic will be

         15  cross-examining this witness.  However, it is about ten

         16  minutes until the break, and the ten minutes will not

         17  be enough for my questions.  Therefore, I would ask you

         18  to advise me on further deliberations.

         19            JUDGE CASSESE:  All right.  We will rise now

         20  so that we will resume at twenty past eleven, and you

         21  will start with the cross-examination.  It's better for

         22  you and, of course, for the proceedings.

         23                 --- Recess taken at 10.55 a.m.

         24                 --- On resuming at 11.25 a.m.

         25            JUDGE CASSESE:  Mr. Pavkovic.

Page 1150

          1                 Cross-examined by Mr. Pavkovic:

          2            MR. PAVKOVIC:

          3       Q.   Good morning, sir.

          4       A.   Good morning.

          5       Q.   My name is Petar Pavkovic.  I'm an attorney.

          6       A.   Pleased to meet you.

          7       Q.   I would like to put a few questions to you.

          8            Yesterday in your testimony you said that you

          9  were born in 1953 in Ahmici?

         10       A.   Yes.

         11       Q.   You said that you spent all your life there?

         12       A.   Yes, except when I was working for three

         13  years and a half in Rijeka on a construction job.

         14       Q.   Can you tell us something about the relations

         15  among the different ethnicities and neighbours, or

         16  rather, more specifically, the first question, what

         17  ethnicities were living in Ahmici?

         18       A.   As far as ethnicity is concerned, I was

         19  really not thinking a lot about it.  I was not paying a

         20  great deal of attention to that fact.  There was no

         21  need for me to do that.  We lived together very well.

         22  I was not interested in the ethnicity, I just took a

         23  person at face value.

         24            We lived together -- I mean, I can't imagine

         25  any community to living a better life.  I know that we

Page 1151

          1  would marry with people from other ethnicities, and I

          2  never really noticed who is who and who was who.

          3       Q.   So if I understand you well, you and the

          4  other citizens were in good relations?

          5       A.   Yes.  With all of them.  With Croats, with

          6  all the others.

          7       Q.   As you said it yesterday, this went on until

          8  1992?

          9       A.   Yes.

         10       Q.   What was actually going on at that time?

         11  What did you notice?

         12       A.   I noticed something I never saw before.  I

         13  saw for the first time these camouflage uniforms with

         14  my neighbours, and I noticed that they were procuring

         15  weapons.

         16       Q.   But at that time you were at war with the

         17  Serbs.  What was unusual about it?

         18       A.   I know that there was a war going on at that

         19  time, but -- how to put it.  I didn't understand it as

         20  a war.  I was simply not interested, because I was

         21  against any war.

         22       Q.   At that time had you recognised that there

         23  had been a war in the former Yugoslavia, in Slovenia

         24  and Croatia?

         25       A.   Yes, I knew that.  I knew a war was waged.

Page 1152

          1  How and why, however, I didn't know why.  I was not

          2  interested in that.

          3       Q.   Did you ask anyone living together in a good

          4  life what was going on?

          5       A.   Of course, I was asking them.  I would ask my

          6  neighbours, "What is going on.  Why is there a war?"

          7  And they would simply say, "The Serbs had attacked."

          8       Q.   Very well.  And on one day you were told to

          9  join your people, to beat it, as you said yesterday.

         10  How did you understand that?  Before that you had joint

         11  duty guards and everything, and then all of a sudden

         12  you were told to go and join your people.

         13       A.   Yes, that's what they told me, but I didn't

         14  understand it.  I just went up to join my people.  I

         15  would join them, and we would then organise duty guards

         16  which were not really very specific.  It was not really

         17  duty guard.  We would sit down, we would play cards, we

         18  would play chess.  We actually were just together to

         19  prevent a possible incident, an unusual situation.

         20       Q.   Tell me, since when had you been a member of

         21  the BiH army in relation to the events in 1992?

         22       A.   In April, 1992, I would join the defence, the

         23  Territorial Defence, because I was put on a waiting

         24  list by my employer, and I had to bring to my company

         25  certain certificates to show them that I was

Page 1153

          1  incorporated into an organised unit and that I would

          2  get salary from there.

          3       Q.   I understand you.  You said you went up there

          4  with your people.  Where was that?

          5       A.   That was up there in Krcevine.

          6       Q.   Where did you report at that time?

          7       A.   Bilic Hidzo was there.

          8       Q.   Who was there?

          9       A.   Well, he was sort of a commander.

         10       Q.   What sort after commander?

         11       A.   I don't know.  I wasn't interested in that.

         12  There was some sort of commanders in charge of guards

         13  and I was a member of that guard.

         14       Q.   How many commanders of this sort were there?

         15       A.   At the beginning, I know there was Pjanic,

         16  then there was Hidzo Bilic and Ahmic Muris.  I can

         17  recall these commanders.  When they were there and how

         18  long, I don't know.

         19       Q.   So they were the commanders.  Whose

         20  commanders?  Who did they command to?

         21       A.   I don't know.  I know they were in contact

         22  with Vitez.

         23       Q.   But in Krcevine how many other people were

         24  there that they were in contact with?

         25       A.   I don't know.

Page 1154

          1       Q.   Do you understand me?  You are talking about

          2  a commander.  Well, if you are a commander, then you

          3  have certain people to command to.  Who were they

          4  commanding?

          5       A.   Well, these were actually not commanders.

          6  These people were in charge of deploying the guards.

          7       Q.   Did you notice them having any weapon when

          8  you came there?

          9       A.   No, they had no weapons.

         10       Q.   No weapons?

         11       A.   No weapons whatsoever.

         12       Q.   What about the weapons that were collected at

         13  Slimena and were brought in?

         14       A.   This were burnt up weapons that were sent to

         15  Grabovi and Upper Ahmici.  The people who went up to

         16  Slimena, they brought the weapons back.  They would

         17  repair the weapons so that they can be functional.

         18       Q.   Can you tell me a name of these people who

         19  went and fetched the weapons, repaired them?

         20       A.   Suad Ahmic was one of them that I know.

         21  I know he went up there and brought the weapons back.

         22       Q.   Can you describe the weapons?

         23       A.   I don't know.  I didn't see the weapons at

         24  all.

         25       Q.   You never saw a single piece of the weapons?

Page 1155

          1       A.   No, I didn't see any weapons.

          2       Q.   Let us now go back to the situation prior to

          3  the first conflict.  You told us how this first

          4  conflict took place.  I'm referring to the October,

          5  1992 conflict.

          6       A.   Yes.

          7       Q.   You told us that you were given orders by the

          8  BiH army to put up a barricade.  Well, not you

          9  personally, but that the order was issued by the BiH

         10  army.

         11       A.   As far as this barricade is concerned, I told

         12  you before that I received no orders.  I knew nothing

         13  about a barricade being erected.  I was not on the

         14  barricade.  I heard from other people talking about the

         15  barricade, when it had already been put up, when this

         16  was all over, and they told me that Novi Tavnik was

         17  attacked, that many troops would have to go there to

         18  attack.

         19       Q.   Who then received this order?

         20       A.   I know that it was issued -- sorry, that the

         21  barricade was erected by the BiH army, that's what I

         22  heard, but I specifically know nothing about this

         23  barricade.

         24       Q.   Do you remember who you heard this from?

         25       A.   I cannot recall this.  This was a story that

Page 1156

          1  went on.  I heard it.  By whom and when, I don't really

          2  know.

          3       Q.   Who exactly, according to your knowledge, put

          4  up this barricade?

          5       A.   As far as I know, it was the BiH army that

          6  put it up.

          7       Q.   Well, were these people from Ahmici?

          8       A.   I heard that two of them were from Ahmici,

          9  Zado Ahmic (phoen) and another Ahmic.  Well, these two,

         10  but nobody else, I heard, was participating in the

         11  erection of the barricade.  And I heard that they took

         12  weapons from somebody at the barricade, but what

         13  specifically happened I really do not know.

         14       Q.   You mentioned that later this barricade was

         15  removed in about an hour's time.

         16       A.   Well, as far as I heard, the barricade was

         17  removed rather quickly, in an hour or an hour and a

         18  half, as I heard it.

         19       Q.   After the removal of the barricade, did you

         20  go there?

         21       A.   No, I never went to that site ever.  I don't

         22  know where the barricade was put up.

         23       Q.   So you don't know how it looked like?

         24       A.   No, I don't know how it looked like.  I had

         25  nothing to do with it.

Page 1157

          1       Q.   Yesterday you mentioned that on the 20th of

          2  October, 1992, Halid Pezer was killed and that you

          3  transferred his body to his mother.

          4       A.   Yes.  I don't know exactly the date when it

          5  was, but I can recall coming down there.  Whether it

          6  was a day or two after the attack, I don't know, but I

          7  know that I went down there with Mirsad Ahmic, who was

          8  my uncle, a relative.  I heard there that this man was

          9  killed, and that his mother was asking for the body to

         10  be discovered.  I don't know where the body was.

         11  Mirsad told me where it was, and we went there

         12  together.

         13            We took the body out and transported him to

         14  the mosque.  We left it there and this is where the

         15  mother collected him.

         16       Q.   I think you mentioned a name Ahmic.  Are you

         17  referring to the same person?  Now, earlier ago you

         18  talked about Halid Pezer?

         19       A.   Halid Pezer was killed, but Mirsad Ahmic was

         20  with me.  He was with me transporting the body.

         21       Q.   Where was the body of Halid Pezer at that

         22  time?

         23       A.   It was behind Pjanic's house.

         24       Q.   Is this where he was killed?

         25       A.   Yes, this is where he was killed.

Page 1158

          1       Q.   Are you sure that this is where he was

          2  killed?

          3       A.   I'm not sure but this is where we found him.

          4       Q.   Have you seen him being killed?

          5       A.   No, I didn't see that.

          6       Q.   After the first conflict -- I think it is

          7  better for me to use that term than to mention dates.

          8       A.   Yes.

          9       Q.   After this first conflict, you said that the

         10  Bosniaks were requested to surrender their weapons?

         11       A.   Yes.

         12       Q.   Who made this demand?  Did anybody ask you to

         13  surrender your weapons?

         14       A.   It was the HVO that demanded it.

         15       Q.   The HVO, yes, but a person, a person you

         16  know?

         17       A.   No, I don't know.  I heard this from our

         18  leader Muris Ahmic, who was there where we kept watch

         19  duty.  And when we were attacked, I think this was on

         20  the next day, he asked that our weapons be surrendered

         21  to the Croats because they had threatened to destroy us

         22  all.

         23       Q.   Where were you then keeping watch duty?

         24       A.   At that time I was in Gornji Ahmici, Upper

         25  Ahmici.  I don't remember for how long.

Page 1159

          1       Q.   How many of you were there?

          2       A.   Not many.  We were just local, 10 or 15 local

          3  inhabitants, because some people were fighting the

          4  Serbs on the front, some were working.  There weren't

          5  many of us.

          6       Q.   Was that some sort of a front-line, a combat

          7  line?

          8       A.   No, we didn't have any combat lines

          9  anywhere.

         10       Q.   Would you please refer back to the events on

         11  the eve of the second conflict, when you were wounded,

         12  as you just explained.  You said you were woken up in

         13  the morning by the sound of gunfire, and that then you

         14  were getting ready with your family.  I'm summarising

         15  what you said, of course.

         16       A.   Yes.

         17       Q.   That with your family you headed towards the

         18  house of Hilmija Ahmic.  Tell me, you explained to us

         19  today that while you were going towards Hilmija Ahmic's

         20  house and when you caught up with your family, which

         21  went ahead of you, and when your wife told you to pick

         22  up a red bag from the little girl, as you've said, that

         23  you were hit then and wounded.  Did I understand you

         24  well that your wife was there as well?

         25       A.   They were all nearby, my wife, my family, my

Page 1160

          1  mother-in-law, my sister-in-law.  They were all going

          2  in front ahead of me, and I caught up with them.

          3       Q.   About what time could this have been?

          4       A.   About 5.20, 5.30.  This was at the time of

          5  the morning prayers, when we go to prayer, when we do

          6  our religious rights.

          7       Q.   You showed Their Honours the injury you

          8  sustained on that occasion.  After being taken by

          9  UNPROFOR on that same day for treatment, where did they

         10  take you?

         11       A.   I was in a personnel carrier.  I didn't know

         12  where they were taking me.

         13       Q.   Yes, but in the end where did they take you?

         14       A.   I assumed it was Nova Bila, where they took

         15  me inside -- or rather, they opened the personnel

         16  carrier.  There was a misunderstanding.  I don't know

         17  what happened.  Then they shut the door again and then

         18  continued on.  However, when we reached this spot where

         19  they opened the carrier again, realised that I had

         20  got -- I had reached Stari Travnik, in front of the

         21  hospital.

         22       Q.   And you were accommodated there?

         23       A.   Yes.

         24       Q.   How much time did you spend there?

         25       A.   Roughly 20 days.

Page 1161

          1       Q.   And what happened then?

          2       A.   After that they didn't do anything to me.

          3  They didn't treat my arm.  They just put a splint on

          4  it, because the hospital had been looted, there were no

          5  plates, no spoons.  I ate from cardboard containers

          6  with my hands.  There were no spoons, no plates, no

          7  pyjamas.  For six days I laid there with nothing on

          8  me.  I had nothing on me.

          9            And I spent about 20 days there.  They

         10  couldn't do anything for me.  And then they said they

         11  would transfer me to Zenica, and that's what they did.

         12  A small bus collected us and took us, via Han Bila, to

         13  Obloke, where again we were stopped by Croatian HVO

         14  soldiers.

         15       Q.   Tell us when you reach the Zenica hospital.

         16       A.   In the afternoon.

         17       Q.   Did they admit you immediately into

         18  hospital?

         19       A.   Yes, they did, immediately.

         20       Q.   How long did you stay there?

         21       A.   I don't remember exactly.

         22       Q.   Never mind, just roughly?

         23       A.   Approximately a month.

         24       Q.   And did they do surgery?

         25       A.   No.  My arm was infected, because in Travnik

Page 1162

          1  they didn't have the necessary bandages.  They didn't

          2  have the medicines.  And when I got to Zenica,

          3  Mr. Sabic, the doctor, told me that my arm was infected

          4  and that they couldn't help me either.

          5       Q.   What happened next?

          6       A.   Well, my hand remained stiff.  I had terrible

          7  pains for two or three months after that.  I had

          8  constant pain because everything was broken there in my

          9  elbow.

         10       Q.   Tell me, please, when were you discharged

         11  from the hospital?

         12       A.   I left the hospital.  I went to the

         13  infirmary, outpatient's department.  I did exercises

         14  and thermal treatment.  Then I went to the medical

         15  school.  I don't remember how long I stayed there.

         16  After that, I asked them to give me an apartment where

         17  I could stay with my family.

         18       Q.   My question only has to do with the time you

         19  spent in various medical institutions.

         20       A.   I can't remember, but there is the evidence.

         21  There is my file, my documents, showing how much time I

         22  spent in hospitals.  All that is in the documents.  I

         23  can't remember the dates.

         24       Q.   No.  We were talking in general terms.  I'm

         25  asking you about the approximate period.  Did you say

Page 1163

          1  that you had very severe pains for another two or three

          2  months?

          3       A.   Yes, I did.  I had severe pains.

          4       Q.   Tell me, when was your treatment completed?

          5  When did you go home?

          6       A.   I can't remember when it was all over.  I

          7  can't remember all that, but there are the documents.

          8  There are the medical records to show that.

          9       Q.   I'm just asking you if you remember without

         10  the documents.  Tell me, after those three months,

         11  shall we say, that you had severe pains, did you

         12  continue to have pain?

         13       A.   Yes.  My arm hurt for three years until it

         14  all healed, because nothing was really undertaken, and

         15  I still have problems with that arm.

         16       Q.   Thank you, sir.  Would you please now answer

         17  this question, and, Mr. President, this will be my last

         18  question.

         19            Today you have already partly answered this

         20  question, but tell me, apart from your testimony

         21  yesterday and today in this honourable Trial Chamber,

         22  how many times and with whom did you discuss these

         23  events in Ahmici of the 16th of April, 1993, the second

         24  conflict?

         25       A.   I don't remember.  Of course we talked about

Page 1164

          1  it.

          2       Q.   My question is how many times and with whom?

          3  I do not mean with your neighbours, but with persons

          4  who introduced themselves as representing a certain

          5  institution or a body, with official persons?

          6       A.   I remember talking twice to representatives

          7  of our own authorities who asked me to make a

          8  statement.

          9       Q.   Do you remember when you spoke to people who

         10  told you that they had come on behalf of the

         11  International Tribunal, the Prosecutor's office?

         12       A.   I do remember that they came, but I don't

         13  remember when, because I was traumatised.  I was

         14  wounded.  Everything I owned had been destroyed.  My

         15  arm was bothering me, so I really can't remember.

         16  I wasn't always very willing to talk about it.

         17       Q.   I assume, Mr. Ahmic, that you still feel

         18  traumatised to this day, even today?

         19       A.   Of course.  I don't like talking about it,

         20  because it upsets me every time I talk about it.

         21       Q.   I understand that, Mr. Ahmic, but as you said

         22  at the beginning of your testimony, we need to learn

         23  what you saw, what you experienced, what you heard.  So

         24  I hope you will understand us and me personally when

         25  I'm questioning you about these details which are still

Page 1165

          1  upsetting you.

          2            Will you tell me, please, do you remember --

          3  maybe I could refresh your memory.  Did you, two years

          4  after the event, that is, in 1995, did you make a

          5  statement to a person who said that he was an

          6  investigator of the Prosecution?

          7       A.   Sir, I really do not remember.  I know I made

          8  statements, but I cannot fix it in time.  I didn't

          9  consider this.  I did make statements, but I didn't

         10  think that it would come to this in concrete terms.

         11       Q.   But when you learned that all of this would

         12  take place, did you then talk to anyone?

         13       A.   No.  I never talked, nor did I write

         14  anything.  I'm saying what I experienced, what I

         15  remember, and this is the truth.  What I know and what

         16  is in my head, that is what I'm telling you.

         17       Q.   If I were to remind you of some statements

         18  that you made earlier on, and we have those statements

         19  in writing, signed by you, to remind you of some of the

         20  things you said, would that refresh your memory?

         21       A.   I'll do my best.

         22            MR. PAVKOVIC:  Mr. President, if necessary, I

         23  should like to tell you where I'm quoting from, even

         24  though I have the Croatian version here, but I can

         25  refer you to the English text.

Page 1166

          1       Q.   I'm referring to the part where you mention

          2  Halid Pezer, that you wanted to carry his body to his

          3  mother, that you were picking him up from a trench?

          4       A.   I didn't see a trench, nor was there a

          5  trench.  Halid was lying on the ground.  Two soldiers

          6  were present there.  I don't know them.  I don't know

          7  who they were.  We were in fear.  We feared they would

          8  do something to us.  I simply said that we picked him

          9  up.  And there was no trench, nor did I see any trench.

         10       Q.   May I just remind you that in this statement,

         11  maybe I should have done that at the beginning, this

         12  statement from the 7th of February, 1995, you say that

         13  this is your only statement.  Now you've told me that

         14  you made several statements.

         15       A.   I don't understand you.  You used the

         16  Croatian word "vejlaca" for February.

         17       Q.   It's the second month, February.

         18       A.   I understand now.

         19       Q.   Let me repeat:  On the 7th of February, 1995,

         20  you told the investigator of the Office of the

         21  Prosecution that this was the only statement that you

         22  had provided up to then, but you have just told me that

         23  you made several statements.  What is correct?

         24       A.   I remember very well that I came once or

         25  twice to the security office or to Metalurg Company and

Page 1167

          1  that I was questioned, and that is the truth, but I

          2  don't know when that was.  But I was interviewed.  Why

          3  I was interviewed, I don't know.

          4            MR. PAVKOVIC:  Just a moment, please.  I beg

          5  the Court for indulgence.  I apologise.

          6       Q.   Could you explain, I didn't quite understand

          7  what you meant when you said "CSB"?

          8       A.   It is our police down there.

          9       Q.   What did they do?

         10       A.   They took me there.  Where they came from, I

         11  don't know who it was, and they took me there to make a

         12  statement to those people.

         13       Q.   After making that statement, you read it?

         14       A.   I didn't read it.  I don't remember them

         15  reading it to me either.

         16       Q.   Did you sign it?

         17       A.   I signed it.  I saw that I had signed it, but

         18  I really do not remember anything.  I was depressed.

         19  My arm was hurting, and when I talked about it, it

         20  upset me, and I simply don't remember.

         21       Q.   Sir, this was two years after the event when

         22  you were wounded.  You said that your pain lasted for

         23  three months, but this was two years later when you

         24  made this statement?

         25       A.   I had constant pain for three months, day and

Page 1168

          1  night.  I couldn't sleep during the day or the night.

          2       Q.   But, sir, you made the statement two years

          3  after you were wounded?

          4       A.   Yes, I did, but I don't remember.

          5       Q.   What don't you remember?

          6       A.   I don't remember them reading the statement

          7  to me.  I don't remember them translating it into

          8  Bosnian for me.

          9       Q.   Let me remind you.  If I remind you, perhaps

         10  you will remember.  You said today and yesterday that

         11  you were wounded going to Halid's house.  When you and

         12  your wife, after the second conflict, went towards

         13  Halid's house to accommodate your family there, that

         14  you were wounded then.  That is what you said today.

         15       A.   No, I didn't say that.

         16       Q.   I think we are not understanding one

         17  another.  I'm talking about the second conflict.  Early

         18  in the morning of the 16th, you were taking your

         19  family, your mother-in-law and the children, to Halid's

         20  house?

         21       A.   No, not to Halid's house, Hilmija's house.

         22       Q.   And that is when you were wounded?

         23       A.   Yes, when we were trying to escape from my

         24  house.

         25       Q.   Do you know what you said in 1995?  May I

Page 1169

          1  read it out to you?  You said, and I quote:  "When my

          2  family was put up in this house, I decided to look for

          3  my leader, my commander.  I did not have a weapon with

          4  me, so I thought maybe he could give me a weapon.  I

          5  was wounded as I was leaving Hilmija Ahmic's house, and

          6  I was hit in the right elbow."

          7            Today you explained that you were also hit in

          8  another part of your body?

          9       A.   Yes.

         10       Q.   Do you see the difference between what you

         11  said here in court and what is written down here?

         12       A.   I do see the difference, and this has upset

         13  me a lot.

         14       Q.   What has upset you?

         15       A.   This has upset me because that is not what I

         16  said under any circumstances, and I do not remember

         17  that at all.

         18       Q.   When did you remember that?

         19       A.   Only when I came here and when my attorney

         20  showed me this statement.

         21       Q.   When you said you came here, what do you

         22  mean?

         23       A.   When I came here to the Tribunal.

         24       Q.   And what attorney?

         25       A.   My Alberto.  He showed me that statement.

Page 1170

          1       Q.   This statement from 1995?

          2       A.   Yes.  The statement that you are quoting

          3  from, he showed me that statement.

          4       Q.   How did he show it to you?  Did he read it

          5  out to you?

          6       A.   I asked him to read it out to me.

          7       Q.   Did an interpreter read it for you?

          8       A.   He read it and the interpreter translated.

          9       Q.   What happened then?

         10       A.   What happened was that I said, and that is

         11  true, that I do not remember any of that.

         12       Q.   I don't understand that.  I'm sorry.

         13       A.   I said that I do not remember anything from

         14  that statement.  I do not remember saying that.

         15       Q.   Then what you have told us here in court, how

         16  come you remember that?

         17       A.   I remember that because that is the truth.  I

         18  told you the truth.

         19       Q.   You told the Tribunal things that mostly

         20  figure also in this statement.  I have just drawn

         21  attention to certain differences.  So my question is

         22  how come there is this difference and why is this not

         23  correct?

         24       A.   I really don't know how this happened.  I

         25  don't remember how it happened.

Page 1171

          1       Q.   What else did the person whom you call your

          2  attorney tell you?  What else did he say to you?

          3       A.   He told me just to tell the truth and the

          4  things I saw.  "Don't say anything else."

          5       Q.   Did he show you any photographs?

          6       A.   Yes.  He showed me the photographs on which I

          7  was wounded and the maps and things.  He did show me

          8  that.

          9            MR. PAVKOVIC:  Thank you very much.  Thank

         10  you, Mr. President.  I have no further questions.

         11            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you, Mr. Pavkovic.

         12            Mr. Puliselic?

         13                 Cross-examined by Mr. Puliselic:

         14       Q.   Good day, sir.  I'm attorney Petar

         15  Puliselic.

         16       A.   Good day.

         17       Q.   In your statement, you said that the Bosniaks

         18  and the Croats, at first, held joint guard duty?

         19       A.   Yes, they did.

         20       Q.   Do you remember, approximately, when the

         21  Bosniaks and Croats started holding separate guard

         22  duty, roughly?

         23       A.   Roughly, I really don't know.  I know that,

         24  with my neighbours, I held guard duty below the road.

         25  We never crossed the road.  And I know that on one

Page 1172

          1  occasion, Rafael Skoro told me, "I'm really sorry, but

          2  we can't keep watch duty together anymore.  Go and join

          3  your people."

          4       Q.   You mentioned the event when a barricade was

          5  put up in Ahmici in 1992.  You said that you were not

          6  present there.

          7       A.   Yes.

          8       Q.   Do you, perhaps, know that in the area of

          9  Jajce, there was a battle between the Serbian forces

         10  and the HVO, that is, between the Serb army and the

         11  HVO?  Do you also know that the HVO needed assistance

         12  in men because Jajce was about to fall?

         13       A.   I am not aware of that because the war

         14  simply -- I didn't realise that the war was coming,

         15  that there would be a war.

         16       Q.   Are you familiar with the road that leads to

         17  Jajce, because apparently HVO units were moving in the

         18  direction of Novi Travnik.  Do you know anything about

         19  that?

         20       A.   No.  I know nothing about that.

         21       Q.   Did you have any prior knowledge to the

         22  effect that the Bosniaks or the Muslims would be

         23  putting up that barricade in October 1992?

         24       A.   I'm sorry.  You're speaking in Croatian.  I

         25  don't understand.

Page 1173

          1       Q.   Did anyone inform you?  Did you hear anything

          2  about it, that this barricade would be put up?

          3       A.   I said that after all this, after this

          4  barricade, I was not informed.  I didn't know there was

          5  a barricade, because later when I went to the village,

          6  I heard that there was a barricade and that it had been

          7  put up by the BiH army.  Because they apparently had

          8  heard that Novi Travnik had been attacked, and that

          9  large numbers of HVO troops were coming from Busovaca,

         10  Kacuni, and I don't know from where else, but that a

         11  very strong army was heading for Novi Travnik.  And

         12  that the barricade had been put up by the BiH army to

         13  stop those soldiers.

         14            That is what I heard.  So that within one

         15  hour or an hour and a half, they had captured this

         16  village afterwards and passed through unimpeded.

         17       Q.   Do you remember exactly when it was you took

         18  your family to upper Ahmici?  You said that this was in

         19  the morning when the shooting started.  Could it have

         20  been the evening before?

         21       A.   I remember both conflicts occurred just when

         22  we were praying.  Both conflicts started at the time of

         23  the morning prayer.

         24       Q.   That's fine, but I'm asking you whether,

         25  perhaps, your family had been taken away the evening

Page 1174

          1  before, before the shooting started early in the

          2  morning?

          3       A.   No.  I was with my family at home when both

          4  conflicts broke out.

          5       Q.   You said that your closest neighbour was

          6  Alija Ahmic?

          7       A.   Among the Muslims, yes.

          8       Q.   Is he the closest among the Muslims or is he

          9  the closest generally?

         10       A.   Among the Muslims, he's the closest, and

         11  Marija is the closest among the Croats, and Pero.

         12       Q.   You said that his son was Abdulah?

         13       A.   Yes, the son of Alija Ahmic.

         14       Q.   Does he have any other son?

         15       A.   He had Muris and Munir, both of whom were

         16  killed.

         17       Q.   What was Muris?

         18       A.   Muris, at the time of the first attack, was

         19  the leader, the leader of our guards.

         20       Q.   Can you remember exactly, was it Muris who

         21  actually informed you that the barricade would be put

         22  up?

         23       A.   No, nobody informed me.  I didn't even know

         24  anything about it.  I just told you.  I don't know

         25  anything about the barricade.  I only could have heard

Page 1175

          1  about it from others.

          2       Q.   You said that at the time of the first

          3  conflict, Halid Pezer had been killed.  And you said in

          4  the statement you gave to the investigator that he was

          5  hit by a sniper.  My question is:  How do you know that

          6  it was a sniper that had killed him?

          7       A.   I assume, because he was hit by a single

          8  bullet, single shot, but I don't know what weapon was

          9  used.

         10       Q.   So you're only assuming that it was a sniper?

         11       A.   Yes, yes.

         12       Q.   Do you know that any Croat was killed on that

         13  occasion?

         14       A.   I don't remember.  I don't remember any Croat

         15  having been killed.  I don't know.  I never heard that

         16  any Croatian soldier had been killed on that day.

         17       Q.   In the statement you made to the

         18  investigator, you spoke about burnt houses, and, among

         19  other things, you said that Mehmed Ahmic's house,

         20  Hajrudin Pjanic's, Sakir Pezer's and Mehmed Ahmic's

         21  house had been burnt.  You also mentioned four stables,

         22  and you listed the owners of those stables that had

         23  burnt during the first conflict.  Was that just so?

         24       A.   It is true that I said that Alija's stable,

         25  Mehmed's house, Bilic's stable, and I don't remember

Page 1176

          1  those others that I listed.  I know that Alija Ahmic's,

          2  Mehmed Ahmic's, Hidzro Bilic's house, I certainly

          3  listed them, but I don't remember.

          4       Q.   According to the information available to the

          5  Defence, it was only one house that burnt, the house of

          6  Mehmed Ahmic, known as Sudzuka, and partly Hajrudin

          7  Pjanic's and Sakir Pezer's stable.  A witness has also

          8  testified to that here in the courtroom during the

          9  hearings.  What do you think is correct?

         10       A.   What I just said is correct.  I listed the

         11  houses that were burnt, but I don't remember exactly

         12  all the houses that I listed.

         13       Q.   But you remember fully your statement

         14  regarding the number of houses and stables that were

         15  burnt?

         16       A.   No.  I don't remember the number of houses

         17  and stables.

         18       Q.   Fine.  Thank you.  Can you, perhaps, answer

         19  the following question:  How many members of the BiH

         20  army were there in Ahmici, approximately?

         21       A.   Approximately, I don't know.  There weren't

         22  any members of the army.  This was no army.  There was

         23  no command.  According to my understanding, people just

         24  acted as they wanted on a voluntary basis.

         25       Q.   Was the situation similar with the Croats?

Page 1177

          1       A.   As far as I know, it was not.  They had a

          2  command, and they acted strictly in accordance with

          3  their orders, as far as I could notice.

          4       Q.   But you also followed certain orders as to

          5  who should go where for which duty?

          6       A.   Yes.  The leader of the guard duty did make a

          7  timetable as to when we should keep watch.

          8       Q.   In a statement to the investigator, you said

          9  that Dragan Papic came to see you one day in order to

         10  inform you that you should contact Slavko Skoro.

         11  Yesterday during the hearing, you said something else.

         12  You said that Vinko Vidovic and Dragan Papic stopped

         13  you when you were returning home, and that they told

         14  you on that occasion that you should contact Slavko

         15  Skoro.  Which of the two is correct?

         16       A.   It is true that they stopped me right next to

         17  the bunker built with my building blocks, and there was

         18  a light machine gun there, which could be put on a

         19  support and which could also be used without this

         20  support.  I also saw Simo Vidovic there, Dragan Papic.

         21  And Vinko Vidovic came up to me when I was passing with

         22  my family and told me that I had to ask permission from

         23  Slavko Skoro to return to my home for reasons of

         24  security.

         25       Q.   Do you see that that is different from what

Page 1178

          1  you told the investigators?

          2       A.   This is what I said, and this is the truth.

          3       Q.   Can you tell me, who is Vinko Skoro?

          4       A.   Vinko Skoro, it's not Vinko Skoro.  It's

          5  Vinko Vidovic.

          6       Q.   You said that Dragan Papic said that you

          7  should contact Vinko Skoro?

          8       A.   No, Slavko Skoro.

          9       Q.   I apologise.  Who is Slavko Skoro?

         10       A.   Slavko Skoro was one of their leaders, a

         11  commander.  I don't know who was under his command or

         12  leadership, but I know that he was there in that

         13  capacity.

         14       Q.   Yesterday you mentioned that Mehmed Ahmic's

         15  house was shot at from Dragan Papic's house, but then

         16  you said you didn't see it.  You heard about it?

         17       A.   Yes.  I was behind Sakib Bajric's stable on

         18  the road.  The two of them, I don't know who exactly

         19  was with me, but they told me that Mehmed Ahmic is in

         20  his house with a family, that shots are being fired

         21  from both the forest and Dragan's house at his house.

         22       Q.   May I remind you that this is also something

         23  that you did not make in your statement you gave to the

         24  investigator in 1995, these details.

         25       A.   I don't remember that.

Page 1179

          1       Q.   You have also mentioned yesterday in this

          2  court an M-53 machine gun, and you also mentioned a

          3  bunker that was put up from concrete blocks that had

          4  belonged to you and that had been around your house.

          5       A.   Yes.

          6       Q.   Let me emphasise on this occasion again that

          7  this was not mentioned by you in your statement to the

          8  investigator in 1995.

          9       A.   Well, I guess not.  I don't remember.

         10       Q.   Can you perhaps tell us what did this machine

         11  gun look like, what is the size of the bullets, the

         12  calibre?

         13       A.   This is the machine gun I was given in the

         14  army.  It is a machine gun you could use with a support

         15  and without it.  When you use the support, you need

         16  three gunners.  I was one of the three while I was at

         17  the army.  And when you use it with a support, it can

         18  be an anti-aircraft gun.  It is also possible to be --

         19  well, it has to be operated by one person.  It has to

         20  be carried out by another person.  Well, anyway, that's

         21  how I -- what I thought was the type of the weapon.

         22       Q.   In terms of metres, how far was the machine

         23  gun away from you?

         24       A.   I saw it from the road, about 30 metres

         25  away.  Well, roughly, of course.  I don't know exactly

Page 1180

          1  how far away it was from me.

          2       Q.   Was this machine gun surrounded by the

          3  concrete blocks, by the bunker?  Was it put up outside

          4  the bunker?

          5       A.   Well, the bunker was in a semicircle.  The

          6  machine gun was located down here.  So I could see it

          7  in front of the bunker.

          8       Q.   What time of the day was it approximately,

          9  can you tell us?

         10       A.   I don't know exactly.  It may have been

         11  around noon.

         12       Q.   Can you answer the following question:  At

         13  that time, and I'm referring to 1992, did the Muslims

         14  in Ahmici set up a combat line?  To be more specific,

         15  you used this very term, the "combat line", in the

         16  statement you gave to the investigator of the

         17  International Tribunal, so tell me, what is a combat

         18  line?  What was this combat line?

         19       A.   I don't remember that.  I just know that

         20  there were no combat lines in Ahmici.

         21       Q.   In your statement to the investigator, you

         22  said that Muris Ahmic, the commander, came to the

         23  combat line and asked from those who were located at

         24  the combat line something.  Can you recall this?  Can

         25  you recall Muris Ahmic coming there?

Page 1181

          1       A.   Well, I can remember the watch guard.  We

          2  were just watching there.  It was not a combat line.

          3  And he came there when he insisted that we surrender

          4  the weapons.

          5       Q.   What sort of weapons did you have at that

          6  time?

          7       A.   I had no weapons whatsoever.  I never had a

          8  weapon.  I never had a uniform.

          9       Q.   Well, I'm just asking you about the weapon.

         10  Did you have the weapon then?

         11       A.   No.

         12       Q.   So what is the point in you being watch guard

         13  without a weapon?

         14       A.   With Hajrudin Pjanic, I told him that I will

         15  have no weapon.  And actually, I didn't want to join

         16  the watch guard because I had no weapons.  Usually the

         17  people would not use the weapon on watch guard, they

         18  would just keep them in their houses.

         19       Q.   Yesterday you said you were somewhere around

         20  Sakib Ahmic's stable, and that two neighbours told you

         21  that shots being fired from the forest and from Papic's

         22  house.  You didn't mention this to the investigator

         23  either.  How can you explain that.

         24       A.   I can't remember that at all.

         25       Q.   It turns out that your recollection now is

Page 1182

          1  much better than it was in 1995.  Yesterday you also

          2  said that on one morning Dragan Papic and Vinko Vidovic

          3  came to your house, and that Dragan Papic was holding

          4  in his hand some sort of bomb fuse?

          5       A.   Yes.

          6       Q.   This, again, is a new detail that you

          7  mentioned -- did not mention in your statement to the

          8  investigator.  How come?

          9       A.   Well, I don't remember that.  I felt the need

         10  now to tell to this Tribunal everything that I can

         11  remember, all the details I can recall in order to be

         12  able to tell the truth and the whole truth here.

         13       Q.   Let me draw your attention to another

         14  distinction.  Earlier ago, you did not, in a single

         15  word, say that Dragan Papic threatened saying that the

         16  Croats would destroy the other part of Ahmici, while

         17  you said this yesterday.

         18       A.   Yes, that is what I say yesterday.

         19       Q.   In your statement to the investigator, you

         20  said that when you left Hilmija Ahmic's house you were

         21  wounded?

         22       A.   No, I don't remember that.

         23       Q.   And you said that when you were hit, you saw

         24  a flash of a rifle shot from a window of Ivo Papic's

         25  house?

Page 1183

          1       A.   No, I can't remember that.  Well, you can't

          2  see a flash from there really.

          3       Q.   But that is what you said in your statement.

          4       A.   I can't recall this.

          5       Q.   Can you tell me what is the distance between

          6  Hilmija Ahmic's house and Ivo Papic's house?

          7       A.   Well, I don't know.  I can guess.

          8       Q.   Well, try to give me an approximate figure.

          9       A.   Well, about 200 metres.

         10       Q.   Yes, I think you are right.  However, in your

         11  statement to the investigator, you mentioned 100

         12  metres.  What is the distance between Ivo Papic's house

         13  and the site where you were wounded, approximately?

         14       A.   Well, approximately I can perhaps say that it

         15  is some 40, 50 metres.

         16       Q.   You also said that upon being wounded you

         17  were resting in Hilmija Ahmic's house, and you said

         18  that the windows of the house were protected?

         19       A.   Yes.

         20       Q.   On the other hand, however, in your statement

         21  to the investigator, you said that from Hilmija Ahmic's

         22  house you could see soldiers running around Ivo Papic's

         23  house, and you described them, the soldiers.  You said

         24  that they had camouflage uniforms, you said that they

         25  had some socks on their head, with openings for eyes

Page 1184

          1  and mouths.

          2       A.   I do not remember that.  I was wounded.  I

          3  was lying down.  I couldn't see that in any way.  I was

          4  lying down.  I was wounded in my arm and my thigh.

          5       Q.   Well, I'm just drawing your attention to the

          6  differences between the statements you made here in the

          7  Court and the statement you gave to the investigator.

          8            After Hilmija Ahmic's house, what were the

          9  other houses close to your house, and I'm referring to

         10  the Muslim houses only.

         11       A.   Only Alija Ahmic's and Sulejman Ahmic's.  And

         12  further up towards the road there was Salih Ahmic's

         13  brother's house, and Salih Ahmic's house and Mirnes

         14  Ahmic's, who were the brothers.

         15       Q.   So there was a number of Muslim houses

         16  together.

         17            I will go back with one question to 1992.

         18  Can you answer the following question:  On October 20,

         19  1992, near your house were there any soldiers that were

         20  shooting at Pero Papic's house?

         21       A.   That's true.  In the morning when the attack

         22  was launched, when I went out with my wife and my

         23  children, when we were heading towards Upper Ahmici,

         24  Pero and Vinko told me that their windows had been shot

         25  at.  And it's true that one could see traces of shots

Page 1185

          1  on Pero Papic's windows.

          2       Q.   So you could see the damage?

          3       A.   Yes, I saw it.   Who was shooting, where from

          4  and how, I do not know.

          5       Q.   Today, in your testimony, you said that when

          6  you had given the statement to the investigator of the

          7  International Tribunal, you felt some pain in your arm

          8  and that you were not focused?

          9       A.   Yes.

         10       Q.   Well, these details that I reminded you of

         11  that were mentioned in your statement were now denied

         12  by you.  You said that what is in this statement and

         13  these differences that I've been pointed at, you said

         14  that you did not make this -- these statements to the

         15  investigator.

         16       A.   I can't remember it.  Maybe I gave the

         17  statement, but I can't remember it.

         18       Q.   You said you were not concentrated.  Why

         19  didn't you tell the investigator about it, this fact,

         20  if that was true?

         21       A.   I can't remember.  I would just answer the

         22  questions that were put to me specifically.  Whatever

         23  was asked of me, I answered.

         24       Q.   I will read to you a text at the end of the

         25  statement you gave to the investigator.  It reads as

Page 1186

          1  follows:  "This statement has been read over to me in

          2  the Bosnian language and is true to the best of my

          3  knowledge and recollection."

          4            This is a statement you signed?

          5       A.   Yes.  I saw that I had signed it, but I

          6  really do not remember it.

          7            MR. PULISELIC:  Your Honours, I have no

          8  further questions for this witness, and I would like to

          9  submit this statement as evidence, the statement made

         10  by the witness to the investigator of the International

         11  Tribunal.

         12            JUDGE CASSESE:  Any objection from the

         13  Prosecution?

         14            MR. MOSKOWITZ:  We have no objection.

         15            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  It is admitted

         16  into evidence.

         17            THE REGISTRAR:  Defence Exhibit 2/5.

         18            JUDGE CASSESE:  I assume the Defence are

         19  through with their cross-examination, and I wonder

         20  whether the Prosecutor -- yes, Mr. Radovic?

         21            MR. RADOVIC:  I shall be very brief, as my

         22  learned colleagues have covered almost all the

         23  questions I had.  May I mention the name now?  Is it an

         24  open or a closed session.

         25            JUDGE CASSESE:  It's an open session.

Page 1187

          1            MR. RADOVIC:  Nevertheless, in that case I

          2  will not mention the name.

          3                 Cross-examined by Mr. Radovic:

          4            MR. RADOVIC:

          5       Q.   Tell me, sir, what your signature on this

          6  statement you gave to the investigator meant to you?

          7  The fact that you signed this piece of paper, what did

          8  it mean to you?

          9       A.   I really don't know.  I made that statement.

         10  I don't remember, because I was upset by that war.  I

         11  was hurt.  I made a statement, but I simply don't

         12  remember anything.

         13       Q.   Yes, but my question is:  Could you explain

         14  to the Court what the fact of signing that paper meant

         15  to you.  What went through your mind when you signed

         16  that paper?

         17       A.   Nothing.  I simply don't know.  I simply

         18  signed it, because they brought me there to make the

         19  statement.  I made the statement and I signed it.

         20       Q.   But what did that mean?

         21       A.   I don't know what it means.  I signed it.  It

         22  means that I made a statement, that I signed it, but

         23  why, I don't know.

         24       Q.   The interpreter explained to you that what

         25  you signed meant that what is in that statement was

Page 1188

          1  yours?

          2       A.   I don't remember the translator explaining

          3  that to me, nor do I remember him translating that into

          4  Bosnian.

          5       Q.   Do you have any medical documentation about

          6  your treatment?

          7       A.   I think I do.  I think that the attorney has

          8  all the medical reports.  He showed me them.

          9       Q.   I'm asking you that because these documents

         10  were not disclosed to us?

         11       A.   No, I didn't give them anything.  They

         12  themselves got it.  How they got it, I don't know.

         13       Q.   But they showed you that it was in their

         14  possession?

         15       A.   Yes.

         16       Q.   Which means that they have something that

         17  they haven't disclosed to us.  You're quite sure that

         18  they showed it to you?

         19       A.   Yes.  They do have it and they showed it to

         20  me.

         21       Q.   The doctors who were treating you, when did

         22  they tell you that they had done everything that they

         23  could, and that they could not achieve any further

         24  improvement with your arm?  When did they tell you

         25  that?  Yes, that they wouldn't treat you any further.

Page 1189

          1       A.   When I reached the hospital in Zenica.  Then

          2  Dr. Sabic told me that.

          3       Q.    Yes, but you were still treated for a time?

          4       A.   Yes, I was, for a long time.  I don't

          5  remember exactly.  I know that I was in the hospital in

          6  Zenica, then in the outpatients department, then also

          7  in the medical school, but for how long I don't know.

          8       Q.   But when did you leave the last medical

          9  institution in which you were treated?

         10       A.   I don't remember when I left the medical

         11  school, because I stayed there too.  I don't remember

         12  when I left.

         13       Q.   What was the therapy they gave you?

         14       A.   I went for heat treatment, exercises,

         15  electricity, ice and that sort of thing.

         16       Q.   Were you ever treated for depression?

         17       A.   No, never.

         18       Q.   Because you just told the Court that you were

         19  depressed, but you were never treated for depression?

         20       A.   No.  I was deeply affected by the war, by

         21  having lost everything, and for a long time I was

         22  fearful as a result of the war.

         23       Q.   You never went for psychiatric treatment?

         24       A.   No, I didn't need that.

         25       Q.   I didn't understand in your statement that

Page 1190

          1  you gave to the investigator, the Prosecution, you said

          2  that, "During the attack I was a member of the BiH

          3  army," without saying whether you were referring to the

          4  first attack on the 20th of October, '92, or the second

          5  on the 16th of April, '93.  As of when did you consider

          6  yourself to be a member of the BiH army?

          7       A.   I considered myself to be a member from April

          8  1992.  That is when I joined, because of the

          9  certificates I carried to my company to be able to

         10  certificate the fact.

         11       Q.   Yes, we've heard all that.  You need not

         12  repeat that.  We know that and it is already in the

         13  transcript.  So if I understood you well, you

         14  considered yourself to be a member of the army from

         15  April '92?

         16       A.   A member of what we had, this defence.  That

         17  is what it was.  This watch duty that we kept, that is

         18  what it was.

         19       Q.   Yes, but from when did you consider yourself

         20  to be a member of the army?

         21       A.   That is when I joined.

         22       Q.   So you put an equation sign between

         23  membership in the Territorial Defence and membership in

         24  the army, as far as I understand.

         25       A.   Well, that was something like that.  It was

Page 1191

          1  called the Territorial Defence.

          2       Q.   So we've cleared that up now.  When you use

          3  the pronoun "we," you said, "We put up the barricade on

          4  the main road in Ahmici," and it follows from this

          5  statement that you participated in putting up the

          6  barricade.

          7       A.   I did not.  I did not participate, I only

          8  heard about it.

          9       Q.   Why then did you use the pronoun "we"?  Were

         10  you thinking of the Bosniak side without your

         11  participation, or were you implying that you too

         12  participated?

         13       A.   I know that the BiH army had put it there.

         14       Q.   So you considered this having been done by

         15  the party -- by the side you belonged to, but you were

         16  not present.  I apologise, Your Honours, but I feel

         17  that it is necessary to clear these points up.

         18            Then you said, "We were supposed to prevent

         19  the passage of Croatian soldiers through Ahmici."

         20  Again you use the word "we."  I assume you mean your

         21  Bosniak side was to prevent the passage of Croatian

         22  soldiers through Ahmici, but you personally did not

         23  participate; is that correct?

         24       A.   Correct.

         25       Q.   Further on, you said that you were told to

Page 1192

          1  report to Slavko Skoro, and you didn't report to Slavko

          2  Skoro?

          3       A.   I did not.

          4       Q.   Did you suffer any consequences for not

          5  reporting to Slavko Skoro?

          6       A.   No, I did not.

          7       Q.   You went on to say that you saw Hakija Trako?

          8       A.   No, no, no, I didn't mention him.  Not

          9  Hakija, Jahija.  Jahija Trako.  Jahija Trako.

         10       Q.   I'm sorry, witness, you said Hajika.  I

         11  apologise.  Jahija Trako said that they were collecting

         12  rifles and handing them over to the Croatian side.

         13  Then you went on to say, "I know the main people who

         14  surrendered their weapons were killed in the second

         15  conflict."  Is that correct?

         16       A.   The people that you were down there next to

         17  the road, below the road.

         18       Q.   What about Jahija Trako?  Was he below the

         19  road?

         20       A.   No, he was not.  He was in Upper Ahmici and

         21  he's alive.

         22       Q.   Very well.  You also said that on the eve of

         23  the conflict, we're talking about the 15th of April

         24  now, that you first went to see your commander,

         25  Hajrudin Bilic, nicknamed Hadzija and you told him and

Page 1193

          1  warned him of the danger that was coming that you

          2  yourself had seen?

          3       A.   Yes.

          4       Q.   Did he take your warning seriously?

          5       A.   No.  No one knew anything about anything.  No

          6  one knew anything.

          7       Q.   After that you went to the mosque and you

          8  told everyone what you had seen; is that correct?

          9       A.   Yes, correct.

         10       Q.   So you went to two places and you made these

         11  warnings in two places?

         12       A.   Yes.

         13       Q.   And what was the reaction of the people in

         14  the mosque?

         15       A.   No one knew anything.  In fact, they attacked

         16  me and said I shouldn't cause panic.

         17       Q.   Who were the people in the mosque?

         18       A.   There was the Hadzija who was killed.  I know

         19  the person who built the mosque.  Then there was Ahmic

         20  who was killed, Abdulah Ahmic who was killed.

         21       Q.   I don't mind about the names, I just want to

         22  know whether there were any people who had come from

         23  Krajina?

         24       A.   No, I didn't notice any outsiders there, not

         25  a single one.

Page 1194

          1       Q.   Roughly how many people were there around the

          2  mosque at the time?

          3       A.   At the time mostly elderly people, five or

          4  six of them.

          5       Q.   Altogether?

          6       A.   Altogether.

          7       Q.   You were speaking about the camouflage

          8  uniforms that individual Croats were wearing?

          9       A.   Yes.

         10       Q.   Tell me, what was the uniform worn by the BiH

         11  army?

         12       A.   The BiH army, as far as I recollect, did not

         13  have uniforms, but what they would bring from Slimena,

         14  canvas from the Yugoslav army, the JNA, and then they

         15  made uniforms from that material, but they didn't have

         16  any uniforms.

         17       Q.   Very well.  But what they made from that

         18  material, what colour was it?

         19       A.   It was camouflage.

         20       Q.   So there was no distinction between them in

         21  terms of the colours?

         22       A.   No, this material was different.  It was

         23  different in colour from the camouflage uniform.  There

         24  was a difference.

         25            MR. RADOVIC:  I won't ask you anything about

Page 1195

          1  the machine gun, because you explained it very well.

          2  You're the only one among all those who spoke about a

          3  machine gun so far.  Now, let me go on.

          4            JUDGE CASSESE:  Sorry to interrupt you, but

          5  we feel that you are counsel for Zoran Kupreskic, and

          6  we don't see the relevance of all the questions you are

          7  putting to the witness.  If you go on putting a lot of

          8  detailed questions concerning matters which are of

          9  relevance to those accused who have been mentioned by

         10  the witness, then, as I say, it is a Pandora's box.  We

         11  will never come to an end of this trial.

         12            I wonder whether you could exercise some

         13  restraint and refrain from putting questions -- we have

         14  already allowed Mr. Pavkovic to ask questions, although

         15  his client, Vladimir Santic, to the best of my

         16  understanding, has not been mentioned by the witness.

         17  But as I say, we can't allow all counsel to put a lot

         18  of questions.  The more so, because some counsel have

         19  already questioned or put in doubt the credibility of

         20  the witness, and have put a lot of questions about the

         21  written statement.

         22            I wonder whether it is of some utility.  I

         23  mean, whether it is useful for this trial to keep

         24  insisting on some points.  Although you don't repeat

         25  the same points made by your colleagues, you go on

Page 1196

          1  insisting on the same matters.

          2            May I suggest that we break now for lunch and

          3  we resume in two hours, and then I hope that you

          4  will -- if you wish to go on you will go on, but we

          5  will now, over the weekend, think of some sort of

          6  regulation to be looked at.  Something to be issued so

          7  that we -- without restricting in any way the right of

          8  the Defence to cross-examine the witnesses, whether we

          9  can come to some sort of balanced and sensible solution

         10  so as to avoid protracted proceedings, which in the

         11  event may not prove useful.

         12            I wonder whether after that the Prosecutor

         13  wishes also to re-examine the witness, so we can make

         14  some plans for the afternoon.  Mr. Moskowitz, do you

         15  intend to re-examine at the end of -- well, of course

         16  you can't say now, you are not sure, a hundred per cent

         17  sure, but --

         18            MR. MOSKOWITZ:  I had two short

         19  clarifications I want to make.

         20            JUDGE CASSESE:  So you also intend to

         21  re-examine.  So that's why it's better to rise now, and

         22  we will reconvene at what, quarter to three, I think,

         23  so we have two full hours.

         24            MR. RADOVIC:  Yes.  Your Honour, I have come

         25  to the end of my cross-examination, but before the

Page 1197

          1  Prosecutor starts with the re-examination, I should

          2  like to explain why all Defence counsel are

          3  cross-examining.

          4            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes.  All right.  So you'll

          5  do so this afternoon.  Thank you.

          6                 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.47 p.m.

          7  .

          8  .

          9  .

         10  .

         11  .

         12  .

         13  .

         14  .

         15  .

         16  .

         17  .

         18  .

         19  .

         20  .

         21  .

         22  .

         23  .

         24  .

         25  .

Page 1198

          1                 --- On resuming at 2.45 p.m.

          2            JUDGE CASSESE:  Good afternoon.  Before I

          3  call upon Mr. Radovic, let me tell him that I owe him

          4  an apology for speaking in a slightly impatient tone

          5  before lunch when commenting on his cross-examination.

          6  I, however, stick to the substance of what I said, and

          7  we may probably have an exchange of views or a

          8  discussion on this point.

          9            I wonder whether Mr. Radovic would now like

         10  to address this particular point, as he announced

         11  before lunch.

         12            MR. RADOVIC:  Well, I'm referring to two

         13  matters.  As far as the Defence counsel's questions are

         14  concerned, we decided that Mr. Petar Pavkovic, who is

         15  our coordinator, will raise this issue.

         16            However, there is another problem.  The

         17  problem that as far as the last witness is concerned,

         18  the Prosecution's office never submitted to us their

         19  medical records.  We would ask the Court to request the

         20  Prosecutor to submit these medical records to us for

         21  the following reason:  The witness said that, given the

         22  pain suffered two years after the wounding, due to the

         23  wounds that were inflicted on him, he was not in a

         24  position to make a correct statement, if you will, to

         25  the investigators of the OTP.

Page 1199

          1            Given the fact that two years is a very long

          2  period of time, we would like to submit these medical

          3  records to a forensic medical expert so as to establish

          4  the authenticity of the records concerned.  This is why

          5  we would need the medical records concerned.

          6            The other issue will be taken up by attorney

          7  Pavkovic.

          8            JUDGE CASSESE:  On this particular point, the

          9  Court considers that this is a small, unimportant

         10  issue, not relevant to the question of credibility of

         11  the witness.  So we don't even need to ask the

         12  Prosecutor to comment, and we will move on to other

         13  matters.

         14            I would turn to Mr. Pavkovic to raise the

         15  issue of cross-examination, the general issue.

         16            MR. PAVKOVIC:  Thank you, Mr. President, for

         17  allowing us to raise these issues too.  The question

         18  you raised today, provided the Defence understands it

         19  very well, namely, that the Defence counsel should, in

         20  their cross-examination, limit themselves to the

         21  Defence counsel only whose accused are being mentioned

         22  by the witness with a view of a speedy and efficient

         23  trial.

         24            With your permission, Mr. President, let me

         25  link very briefly this issue with an issue you

Page 1200

          1  mentioned last week, for we believe that these two are

          2  very closely linked issues.  I'm referring to the need

          3  for the indictment to be structured very well and very

          4  precisely.  If we understood you well, at that time,

          5  you were addressing the Prosecution, and you emphasised

          6  that this also applies to the Defence.  And when

          7  mentioning the Tadic case, you said that the Defence

          8  should be very precise as far as the questions of

          9  persecution are concerned.  It seems to me that you

         10  said on that occasion that even in the event of a

         11  murder as an element of persecution, that it should

         12  also be very clearly defined as such in the

         13  indictment.

         14            Your Honours, we are now facing an indictment

         15  that has not been structured accordingly, which was

         16  very well observed by you, Mr. President.  And as long

         17  as the indictment is structured in this way, the

         18  Defence and the Defence counsel, specifically, since we

         19  have the indictment, including Count 1, where the

         20  plural is used where the accused are indicted together

         21  with a number of other persons, we have to resist this

         22  sort of indictment as it is.

         23            We, therefore, take it that this indictment

         24  refers to everyone and to all of them.  We believe that

         25  this stems from Rules of Procedures and Evidence,

Page 1201

          1  Article 82A, which indicates that in joint trials, each

          2  accused shall be accorded the same rights as if such

          3  accused were being tried separately.

          4            This is why we would urge you, Your Honours,

          5  to request the Prosecution to restructure the

          6  indictment.  Here, we are speaking about very serious

          7  charges with very serious punishment implied, and we

          8  believe that those rules, which are relevant to very

          9  serious charges and punishment, these should be

         10  considered restrictively, and they should only apply to

         11  the facts that are very clearly specified.  Where the

         12  indictments are not individualised, we believe our

         13  rights should remain such as they are, namely, that the

         14  Defence, indeed, insists upon the rights of the

         15  accused.

         16            Thank you, Your Honours.

         17            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  I wonder whether

         18  the Prosecutor would like to comment on these remarks?

         19            MR. TERRIER:  Mr. President, the Prosecution

         20  does not share the views that have just been voiced by

         21  the Defence counsel.  Would you like us to express

         22  ourselves this very afternoon on these, rather, general

         23  matters, or should we have a special hearing on these

         24  matters?

         25            I just wish it to be noted that we do not

Page 1202

          1  share these views, that we are at Your Honours'

          2  disposal to express our position, and if you wish us to

          3  do so now, we will be glad to do so.  But we would like

          4  to hear your further guidance on this matter.

          5            JUDGE CASSESE:  We feel it would not be

          6  advisable to deal with this problem this afternoon,

          7  perhaps next Monday or Tuesday before beginning with a

          8  new witness.  Therefore, I think it is better to

          9  postpone the debate on this matter, but in the

         10  meantime, the Prosecutor could, perhaps, consider its

         11  positions on the matter.

         12            First of all, I would like to thank

         13  Mr. Pavkovic for his comments.  Let me make, in a

         14  tentative way, very tentatively, because what I'm going

         15  to say will, in no way, prejudge the final position of

         16  the Court after hearing both the Prosecution and the

         17  Defence, just two points as follows:  The first point,

         18  actually, when I asked the Prosecution and the Defence

         19  to try to file a supplementary brief, supplementary in

         20  the case of the Prosecution, on the notion of

         21  persecution, I merely expressed doubts.  I didn't set

         22  out a definite position of the Court on the notion of

         23  persecution.

         24            I said that this is a difficult area, a new

         25  area where we have to break new ground, and it will be

Page 1203

          1  very important for the Defence and the Court to be

          2  aware of the position taken on this important legal

          3  issue by the Prosecution.  By the same token, we would

          4  also welcome any legal brief from the Defence.

          5            The second point is, just expressing now my

          6  own view, I would say that I think at this stage it is

          7  impossible to ask or it is very difficult to ask the

          8  Prosecution to restructure the indictment, as you

          9  suggested.  They may probably cast light on some points

         10  which are now being discussed and better define their

         11  position, in particular, the notion of persecution.

         12            I would agree with you.  I don't have the

         13  indictment here close at hand, but I think that Count 1

         14  relates to all indictees.  To the best of my

         15  recollection, as you rightly pointed out, it does

         16  relate to all indictees.  To this extent, of course,

         17  you're right to say that you have a right to

         18  cross-examine witnesses with particular respect to that

         19  count.

         20            In light of Rule 82A, again, I agree with you

         21  that this is the relevant provision, but let me sum up

         22  the discussion by saying that we are aware that we have

         23  to strike a balance between two notions or two

         24  requirements, the requirement of fairness and the

         25  requirement of expeditiousness of proceedings.  Now,

Page 1204

          1  fairness means that we have to safeguard, by all means,

          2  the rights of the accused, particularly in light of

          3  Rule 82A.

          4            On the other hand, we should be mindful of

          5  this other basic requirement of expeditiousness, and

          6  that means that we want to avoid any unduly protracted

          7  proceedings.  If the proceedings are too protracted, I

          8  think this is against the basic right of the accused to

          9  have a quick trial.

         10            Therefore, we wonder whether Defence counsel,

         11  when they feel that they have to ask questions in the

         12  cross-examination of witnesses, they could confine

         13  themselves to relevant questions, to questions which

         14  are relevant and not repetitive.  My feeling has been

         15  so far that on many occasions, many questions put by

         16  legal counsel while cross-examining the witness were

         17  repetitive, were actually variations on the same theme,

         18  as it were, sometimes, say, on the discrepancy between

         19  the written statement and the statement made here in

         20  court by the witness.

         21            We don't need to hear about this theme ten times.

         22  I mean, we are a court of professional Judges.  We do

         23  understand the points made so ably by legal counsel,

         24  and we, of course, as I say, don't need to -- we can't

         25  accept a sort of harping about the same theme in a

Page 1205

          1  repetitive manner.

          2            We would also like to ask, and these are two

          3  minor practical points, when you, Mr. Pavkovic, give us

          4  the list of legal counsel wishing to cross-examine the

          5  witness, could we say that the list should be, in a

          6  way, a final list?  I do understand that you may have,

          7  at the last minute, one of the counsel who wants to put

          8  a question, but if possible, we would like to have a

          9  list which is complete without any last-minute

         10  additions.

         11            Also, I wonder whether you could stick to a

         12  principle that you yourself set out and proposed, and I

         13  think it's quite sensible, namely, that the witness

         14  should be first cross-examined by the legal counsel

         15  whose client is concerned by the testimony given by the

         16  witness.  I think it's a more rational and logical

         17  principle, but on some occasions, I have realised that

         18  you have not followed this principle, as I say,

         19  enunciated by yourself.

         20            Having said so, we decided in a discussion at

         21  lunch time, that in future, we will try to be absolutely

         22  sensitive to the rights of the Defence and, on the

         23  other hand, also, however, be rather strict, and we may

         24  stop and ask you whether a particular question is

         25  relevant, so that you have to show why the question is

Page 1206

          1  relevant.  This is sort of a practical arrangement, but

          2  let us see whether we can proceed in a more expeditious

          3  manner in the future.

          4            We also feel that, on some occasions,

          5  probably the Prosecutor should direct the witness, in a

          6  sense, to shorten the exposition of the witness.  We do

          7  understand there are psychological reasons why some

          8  witnesses tend to talk at length because there is also,

          9  of course, a -- we all understand for what reasons.

         10  Probably one of the raison d’être of our Tribunal is

         11  also to enable witnesses to recount their own dramatic

         12  experiences.  However, sometimes probably the

         13  Prosecutor may feel it opportune and advisable to try

         14  to lead, in this sense, the witness.

         15            Let us continue and hope that this afternoon

         16  we may move on to our next witness.  I wonder whether

         17  there are other questions by Defence counsel.  If not,

         18  I assume Mr. Radovic was the last one.

         19            MR. PAVKOVIC:  As far as I know, we have no

         20  further questions.  Mr. President, we will certainly

         21  abide by your comments and suggestions.

         22            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  That's most

         23  helpful and kind of you.

         24            I would like to ask the Prosecutor whether he

         25  would like to re-examine the witness.

Page 1207

          1            MR. MOSKOWITZ:  Just briefly, Your Honour.

          2            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes.

          3                 Re-examined by Mr. Moskowitz:

          4       Q.   Mr. Ahmic, just a couple of matters I would

          5  like to clarify with you.  You were asked about the

          6  machine gun in front of the Papic house when you

          7  returned following the October '92 incident.  You

          8  talked about a machine gun that could have a platform,

          9  in which case it would be an anti-aircraft gun, or this

         10  is a machine gun that could be used without a platform,

         11  in which case it would not be an anti-aircraft gun.

         12            Do you recall whether the machine gun you saw

         13  in front of the Papic house on the day you described

         14  had a platform or did not have a platform?

         15            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.  The

         16  microphone is not on.

         17            JUDGE CASSESE:  Mr. Radovic?

         18            MR. RADOVIC:  Mr. President, the Prosecutor

         19  is actually misleading the witness by putting these

         20  questions, because in his statement, the witness stated

         21  that the machine gun consists of the part which is used

         22  for shooting and the platform.  And when it is used as

         23  an anti-aircraft gun, then another support is being

         24  used.

         25       A.   Yes.

Page 1208

          1            MR. RADOVIC:  Well, we know this specific

          2  machine gun.  This is why it is not correct to say that

          3  the machine gun is used with a platform only when used

          4  as an anti-aircraft carrier or machine gun.

          5            JUDGE CASSESE:  Sorry.  Can you stop?  I

          6  think the question was whether the machine gun he saw

          7  on that particular day did have a platform or did not.

          8  I think it's quite appropriate, that particular day.

          9            Yes, Mr. Radovic?

         10            MR. RADOVIC:  No, because the Prosecutor

         11  said, "This is a machine gun only when used with a

         12  platform."  A special support has to be used as an

         13  anti-aircraft weapon.  Without this special support, it

         14  is a simple machine gun that can be served and operated

         15  by only one person.

         16            JUDGE CASSESE:  All right.  Can you rephrase

         17  it, Mr. Prosecutor?

         18            JUDGE MAY:  What I suggest is that the

         19  witness describes the gun.

         20            MR. MOSKOWITZ:

         21       Q.   Could you, Mr. Ahmic, describe the weapon

         22  that you saw that day?

         23       A.   The weapon that I saw that day was a machine

         24  gun which can be fired by a single person.  A single

         25  person can use this light machine gun.  It can be

Page 1209

          1  operated by only one person.  There was no platform.  I

          2  saw no platform.  That's it.

          3       Q.   You say it can be operated by one person.

          4  Can one person carry it easily?

          5       A.   Yes.  One person can carry it easily and can

          6  fire with it very easily.  Because I was the person in

          7  charge of firing when using these machine guns in my

          8  military service with the JNA.  But, of course, if it

          9  is used with a platform, you need three persons.  The

         10  machine gun would be operated by the person who

         11  operates it and by somebody who helps him in firing,

         12  but it can also be operated by one person only.

         13       Q.   You also were asked about whether or not you

         14  saw a flash of firing coming from the Ivo/Dragan Papic

         15  house.  I want to clarify that, if we can.  As you were

         16  fleeing from your house and before you were injured or

         17  shot in the elbow and in your side, did you see flashes

         18  coming from the Dragan Papic house or did you not?

         19       A.   When I was crossing the road, I turned left

         20  and I turned right.  When turning right, I noticed two

         21  soldiers bending close to Dragan Papic's house.  At

         22  that time, I saw a flash from Dragan Papic's house, and

         23  then I continued running away.

         24       Q.   Did that flash appear to be coming from

         25  inside the house through one of the windows or from

Page 1210

          1  outside the house where the soldiers were?

          2       A.   It appeared to be coming from the window.  I

          3  saw, actually, a shape behind the window.

          4       Q.   When you were inside Hilmija's house, having

          5  been injured, were you able to see any flashes or any

          6  kind of firing coming from the Papic house?

          7       A.   No, I didn't see it.  I was wounded.  I was

          8  lying down, and I didn't see anything.  I, actually,

          9  couldn't see anything.  I was lying down until UNPROFOR

         10  took me out on a stretcher.

         11            MR. MOSKOWITZ:  Your Honours, that ends my

         12  redirect, but I have a request at this moment to make

         13  of the Court and to ask the Court's indulgence on a

         14  third topic which would not, in my view, be proper

         15  redirect in that it was not raised on

         16  cross-examination.

         17            It is, however, I think, a point of

         18  clarification that may be helpful to the Court.  There

         19  was some testimony briefly, I think, on direct about a

         20  sister-in-law who claimed to have seen a motorcycle

         21  with a BiH flag driving by.  I think that was in

         22  response to a question about, "Did you see anything

         23  unusual on the 15th that made you suspicious that

         24  something was afoot," and I think that was one of the

         25  things that he mentioned.  This is not a big point in

Page 1211

          1  the case.

          2            However, I have been informed by the witness

          3  that that is, in fact, not what he intended to convey.

          4  Rather than make a proffer in front of him as to what

          5  he intended to convey, he was quite adamant with me

          6  that having come all the way from Bosnia, he wants the

          7  record to be straight on what he intended to say.

          8            This is not, I think, narrowly redirect.  So

          9  I raise it with the Court and seek the Court's advice

         10  about it.  It don't think it's a major point.

         11  Although, you never know.  As the evidence comes in, it

         12  may make some difference.  In any event, he feels

         13  strongly that he wants to make it clear to the Court

         14  what he meant by that.

         15            JUDGE CASSESE:  First of all, let me ask

         16  Mr. Radovic.  No comment?

         17            MR. RADOVIC:  Your Honour, I understand that

         18  this is re-examination, so I'm wondering why this

         19  addition to the cross-examination, because if the

         20  Prosecutor intends to continue with the re-examination,

         21  let him continue without telling the witness what he

         22  intends to question him about in continuation of his

         23  re-examination.

         24            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes.  We have decided that

         25  Mr. Moskowitz may ask this question of the witness in

Page 1212

          1  re-examination.  However, I think it is only proper for

          2  the Defence, if they feel the need to put questions on

          3  this very point, to ask questions of the witness in

          4  cross-examination.

          5            Please, ask the question of the witness.

          6            MR. MOSKOWITZ:

          7       Q.   Would you clarify, if you will at this time,

          8  what your, I believe it was, sister-in-law told you she

          9  saw?  I'm now talking about that motorcycle on the 15th

         10  with, you say, the BiH flag on it.

         11       A.   Yes.  When my sister-in-law came to my house,

         12  she explained to me that she had seen two HV soldiers

         13  on motorcycles carrying around a Bosnian flag, the flag

         14  of the BiH army that was attached to the motorcycles.

         15       Q.   Did she tell you whether this flag was on the

         16  motorcycle or was it being dragged behind the

         17  motorcycle, or was it affixed in some other way?

         18       A.   They were dragging it behind the motorcycle,

         19  along the road.  It was being dragged along the road.

         20            MR. MOSKOWITZ:  I think that's the

         21  clarification.  Thank you.

         22            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  Mr. Pavkovic,

         23  does any Defence counsel wish to cross-examine on this

         24  particular point?

         25            MR. PAVKOVIC:  Mr. Radovic.

Page 1213

          1            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  Mr. Radovic?

          2                 Cross-examined by Mr. Radovic:

          3            MR. RADOVIC:

          4       Q.   Here we are again the two of us, but I have

          5  just one question for you.

          6            These two who were pulling the Bosnian flag

          7  along the ground, have they got any connection with any

          8  one of the accused?  Did you see any one of the accused

          9  doing such a thing?

         10       A.   No, no.

         11            MR. RADOVIC:  Thank you.

         12            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you, Mr. Radovic.

         13            I have only one question.  This morning,

         14  Mr. Ahmic, this morning you said when -- and I have the

         15  transcript in front of me -- that when you were wounded

         16  and then treated by the UNPROFOR soldiers who came to

         17  see you, and they dressed your wounds and gave you an

         18  intravenous infusion, you asked them to be transferred

         19  to the hospital.  And then you said there was an

         20  interpreter with them, and this interpreter said that

         21  they were not allowed to help anyone because those were

         22  the orders they had received from the Croatian army,

         23  and then they left.

         24            So my question is:  Who told you that the

         25  Croatian army had issued orders to the effect that

Page 1214

          1  nobody should be treated in this hospital, if this is

          2  what you meant?  You said, "helped."  Who said so to you?

          3  Was the interpreter -- the interpreter said to you that

          4  the orders were that the -- from the Croatian army was

          5  that nobody should be helped in the hospital?

          6       A.   Yes.  It was the interpreter who told me that

          7  they mustn't assist our people, our wounded, that they

          8  mustn't do that.

          9            JUDGE CASSESE:  Assist in the hospital?

         10       A.   No, no.  This was when he was giving me

         11  first-aid, when he was dressing the wound.  This

         12  UNPROFOR officer and the interpreter in this house when

         13  they treated me for the first time, that is what they

         14  said.

         15            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes.  But to which particular

         16  hospital were they referring?  When you said, "Take me

         17  to a hospital," and they said "No, because we know of

         18  orders from the Croatian army."  Were you thinking of a

         19  particular hospital?

         20       A.   No, no, I wasn't thinking of anything in

         21  particular, I was just trying to get saved.  I was

         22  wounded and all I wanted was to be taken away, because

         23  there was no help coming from any side.  There was no

         24  one who could help us except for the UNPROFOR.  And

         25  what they did was to halt the shooting and take the

Page 1215

          1  women and children towards the upper village.  We had

          2  no other aid coming from any other side.

          3            JUDGE CASSESE:  Now, if the Registrar could

          4  be so kind, or the usher, as to give the witness

          5  Prosecution Exhibit number 80.  I wonder -- this is a

          6  picture showing you in the house of Mr. Hilmija Ahmic.

          7  I wonder whether -- yes, it should be put on the ELMO.

          8            Could you please indicate who of these two

          9  UNPROFOR soldiers, I don't know whether they are both

         10  soldiers, one is interpreter, who told you that you

         11  could not be taken to the hospital because of the

         12  orders received from the Croatian army?

         13       A.   I know that the interpreter said this to me,

         14  and I think that this is the interpreter.

         15            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  Sorry.

         16  Prosecutor?

         17            MR. MOSKOWITZ:  We have another photograph

         18  which we didn't introduce, only because we didn't want

         19  to be duplicative, that, I think, shows the two men

         20  more clearly if it would be of assistance to the Court.

         21            JUDGE CASSESE:  No.  Thank you.  It's

         22  sufficient, because clearly one -- their uniform is

         23  slightly different.

         24            Anyway, so this young man, the interpreter,

         25  who you called the interpreter, told you about the

Page 1216

          1  Croatian orders.  Thank you.

          2            Thank you, Mr. Ahmic.  I assume there's no

          3  objection to the witness being released?

          4            Mr. Ahmic, thank you for coming here to

          5  testify in court.  You may now be released.  Thank

          6  you.

          7       A.   Thank you, you too.  Thank you very much.

          8                 (The witness withdrew)

          9            JUDGE CASSESE:  Now, the while the Prosecutor

         10  is calling the next witness, may I raise, very quickly,

         11  an issue to which we would like to draw the attention

         12  of both parties?  The important remark and request made

         13  yesterday in court by Judge May about the need to see,

         14  to be aware and have a clear perception of the

         15  distances between the various buildings, houses, the

         16  mosques, the cemetery, the Catholic cemetery and so on,

         17  set us thinking of the problem of whether it would be

         18  feasible for the Court to do what we call a visit to the

         19  site of the alleged crime, which is provided for in

         20  many International Tribunals, including the

         21  International Court of Justice, and we came to the

         22  conclusion that this would be extremely useful to the

         23  Court to have an idea of the village, the small

         24  village.

         25            This is provided for in our Rules of

Page 1217

          1  Procedure and Evidence, Rule 4, which states as

          2  follows:  "A Chamber may exercise its functions at a

          3  place other than the seat of the Tribunal, if so

          4  authorised by the President, in the interests of

          5  justice."

          6            I have also looked up the relevant rules of

          7  the Statue and Rules of Procedure of the International

          8  Court of Justice.  They also provide for the same

          9  possibility and give some guidance.

         10            We strongly feel that it would be important

         11  for the Court to go there.  However, we feel that it

         12  will be good to go with the Defence counsel and the

         13  Prosecutors, and without the accused, because this may

         14  create problems for the accused to go there, quite a

         15  few problems.  But probably the presence of Defence

         16  counsel, all Defence counsel, will be sufficient.  And

         17  we could try to see whether we could spend this one

         18  day, one full day, moving around, checking the various

         19  buildings and so on.

         20            Of course, we know there are two problems.

         21  One problem is security for those people, say, Defence

         22  counsel, the Prosecutor and the Court to go in there,

         23  plus members of the Registry, security and financial

         24  implications, which is always a huge problem.

         25            Before, however, formally sending a request

Page 1218

          1  to the President and the Registrar, we would like to

          2  have your views and know whether you, in principle,

          3  would be in favour.  If so, we could send, as I say, a

          4  request to the President and the Registrar, more so because

          5  I think the area is under control of the Dutch/American

          6  forces, members of UNPROFOR, and probably the Dutch

          7  army or whatever forces could provide for

          8  transportation from here, and maybe a military

          9  aeroplane with all the Court, including, of course, the

         10  parties and so on.  And probably one full day there

         11  would be sufficient.

         12            This would, of course, in a way, make also

         13  the financial implications acceptable, and they or the

         14  other forces of UNPROFOR should provide security to all

         15  of us.

         16            What is the position of the Prosecutor first,

         17  and then the --

         18            MR. TERRIER:  Mr. President, we would most

         19  sincerely applaud the idea that you just proposed.  We

         20  believe that it is, indeed, very important for this

         21  trial in particular to know exactly the site.  I went

         22  on several occasions and saw that for myself, how

         23  important it was, after reading the documents.  So I do

         24  indeed think it is very important, that it is an

         25  excellent idea in principle.

Page 1219

          1            As for the practical aspect of the matter

          2  that you referred to, I think there is no doubt that

          3  your Court will receive the full co-operation and

          4  support of the Dutch battalion SFOR, which is

          5  responsible for the Vitez region.

          6            There will certainly be a number of practical

          7  problems to deal with, security problems, for example,

          8  the mine -- problem with the mines, to make sure that

          9  the mines have been removed, but I think that not one

         10  of those problems is insoluble and they can all be

         11  overcome.

         12            As for the legal formalities, the legal

         13  aspect of this move, as far as I am concerned, and

         14  according to my experience, it is something that is

         15  done very frequently and doesn't pose any problems, and

         16  one has to ensure the contradictory aspect of the

         17  trial, that is that the Defence should be present, and

         18  I see no major obstacles.  Therefore, the position of

         19  the Prosecution is very favourable regarding your

         20  proposal, despite the absence of the accused.  As far

         21  as I know, there is nothing about that in the rules,

         22  but I think the contradictory nature of the trial will

         23  be ensured by the presence of Defence counsel of each

         24  of the accused.

         25            JUDGE CASSESE:  Mr. Radovic.

Page 1220

          1            MR. RADOVIC:  As far as we are concerned, we

          2  also agree with this proposal and we feel it would be

          3  useful.  As far as your security is concerned, from the

          4  Croatian side, we can assure you that there is

          5  absolutely no danger, as far as we are familiar at

          6  least, with the mentality of the people living in Vitez

          7  and in the environs.  Therefore, we accept and we do

          8  believe that this will contribute to an objective

          9  assessment of the events in that area for what is

         10  happening in this trial.

         11            In this trial, we had already, in the

         12  investigation stage, asked the investigators to come to

         13  Vitez, and not to interview only one side and not to

         14  only indict on one side.  You have an indictment that

         15  is absolutely one-sided.  Not a single person from the

         16  Croatian side was heard.  So this will be the first

         17  step towards establishing a balance.  And the next

         18  step, of course, will be, when you hear the second

         19  group of witnesses, that is the Defence witnesses.

         20            I must say, unfortunately, that for the first

         21  time in my career as an attorney, before I was a

         22  Judge, it was the first time that I come across the

         23  problem of, "My witnesses and your witnesses," because

         24  in the area in which we worked, we usually had

         25  witnesses of the Court, a person who has to tell the

Page 1221

          1  truth regardless of whether he is speaking in favour of

          2  the Defence or the Prosecution.  He conveys what he saw

          3  and what he heard.

          4            We realise that this system was established

          5  when the International Court of Justice -- no, I'm

          6  sorry, not the Court of Justice, for the crimes in the

          7  former Yugoslavia was established.  But in any event,

          8  we applaud this step which will ensure that things are

          9  viewed not in a one-sided manner only.  Thank you.

         10            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  As for the point

         11  of, "Our witnesses, their witnesses," I'm afraid this

         12  is the procedure.  And this is, of course, as you know,

         13  Mr. Radovic, better than me, it is the adversarial

         14  system, which is totally different from the

         15  inquisitorial system with which you are familiar in your

         16  country and also other European persons from

         17  Continental Europe are also familiar with namely the

         18  inquisitorial system where you have a totally different

         19  approach, but we have to stick to our rules.

         20  Therefore, we have the Prosecution witnesses and then

         21  in a few weeks time we will have the Defence

         22  witnesses.

         23            Mr. Pavkovic?

         24            MR. PAVKOVIC:  Mr. President, of course, this

         25  is up to you to decide when we'll be going on this trip

Page 1222

          1  to visit the site, but it seems to me that I can speak

          2  of behalf of my colleagues in the Defence, that after

          3  the presentation of the Prosecution evidence, that

          4  would perhaps would be the most convenient moment to

          5  visit Ahmici.  That is, between the Prosecution and the

          6  Defence case.  At the end of the Prosecution case and

          7  before the beginning of the Defence case.  That would

          8  be my suggestion, Your Honour.

          9            JUDGE CASSESE:  Mr. Radovic?

         10            MR. RADOVIC:  I do apologise for asking for

         11  the floor again, but when deciding on the date of this

         12  visit, one must bear in mind that this is Central

         13  Bosnia, and that the weather in the later autumn is

         14  quite harsh, and already in December it can snow

         15  because the altitude is quite high.  I'm just drawing

         16  your attention to this technical point.

         17            JUDGE CASSESE:  But I think Mr. Pavkovic made

         18  a very good point.  The best period would be after the

         19  Prosecution case, the end of the Prosecution case, and

         20  before the Defence start with their own case, namely in

         21  October.  And October is the period of the first

         22  episode, the first attack, so, therefore, it would be

         23  quite appropriate.  So we would also be aware of --

         24  become aware of the weather in October.

         25            All right.  Well, I thank you for your

Page 1223

          1  comments, and, of course, on the basis of your

          2  position, which is in favour of our suggestion, we will

          3  send a formal letter, a request to the President and

          4  the Registrar.

          5            We will now move on to the next Prosecution

          6  witness.

          7                 (The witness entered court).

          8            JUDGE CASSESE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Akhavan.

          9  Could you make the solemn declaration?

         10            THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I shall

         11  speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

         12  truth.

         13            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  You may be

         14  seated.

         15            Now, this is typical witness where probably

         16  the Prosecution could focus on a few major points.

         17  Also, because we have the statement.

         18            May I ask, Mr. Terrier, do you regard

         19  Mr. Akhavan as an expert witness or as a fact witness?

         20            MR. TERRIER:  Mr. President, the Prosecution

         21  considers Mr. Akhavan as a fact witness, which means he

         22  will be cross-examined by representatives of the

         23  Defence.

         24                 WITNESS: PAYAM AKHAVAN

         25                 Examined by Mr. Terrier:

Page 1224

          1       Q.   Mr. Akhavan could you tell the Court your

          2  name and date of birth?

          3       A.   I name is Payam Akhavan.  I was born on April

          4  11, 1966.

          5       Q.   Today you're working with the Office of the

          6  Prosecutor for the International Tribunal?

          7       A.   Correct.

          8       Q.   Would you tell the Court about your education

          9  and experience in the area of International

         10  Humanitarian Law?

         11       A.   I have obtained a law degree and a

         12  post-graduate law degree in the field of International

         13  Human Rights Law.  Prior to joining the Tribunal, I had

         14  worked with the Norwegian and Danish Human Rights

         15  Institutes respectively in Oslo and Copenhagen, after

         16  which I joined the United Nations Centre for Human

         17  Rights, where I worked with Tadeusz Mazowiecki.  Prior

         18  to that I'd been involved in the missions of the

         19  Conference of Security and Cooperation in Europe, both

         20  of which were related to humanitarian law violations in

         21  the former Yugoslavia.

         22       Q.   Mr. Akhavan, you participated in the

         23  preparation and drafting of a report of the Human

         24  Rights Commission, dated 19th May, 1993, under the

         25  heading, "The Situation Regarding Human Rights on the

Page 1225

          1  Territory of the Former Yugoslavia"; is that correct?

          2       A.   Correct.

          3            MR. TERRIER:  I would like to tender into

          4  evidence a copy of this report.  I wish to say, Mr.

          5  President, that this is a public document that, of

          6  course, the witness is not a signatory of it.  It is a

          7  report of the Commission for Human Rights, of which

          8  Mr. Tadeusz Mazowiecki was the head as the former Prime

          9  Minister of Poland.

         10            We have communicated through a representative

         11  of the Defence and tendered a copy of this report,

         12  though it is not, strictly speaking, a statement of the

         13  witness, but we have given a copy of this report to

         14  each of the Defence counsel.

         15            If they wish, I can give them additional

         16  copies if they need them.  In any event, I am at the

         17  disposal of the attorneys.

         18            THE REGISTRAR:  Prosecution Exhibit 82.

         19            MR. TERRIER:

         20       Q.   Mr. Akhavan, could you explain under which

         21  circumstances you participated in the drafting of this

         22  report?

         23       A.   I was a member of the staff of the Special

         24  Rapporteur for the former Yugoslavia, Prime Minister

         25  Mazowiecki, and was deployed in Zagreb together with a

Page 1226

          1  college, (redacted).

          2            We were approached during the middle of April

          3  by the members of the European Community Monitoring

          4  Mission regarding allegations that humanitarian law

          5  violations had taken place in the Lasva Valley region

          6  of Central Bosnia and, in particular, in the village of

          7  Ahmici.  Both of us had also seen television footage of

          8  atrocities which had been committed in this village.

          9            At that point, we decided to obtain approval

         10  from the United Nations Centre for Human Rights in

         11  Geneva in order to conduct an on-site investigation.

         12  After which we arranged, through the United Nations

         13  Protection Force, to travel to the Lasva Valley region,

         14  upon which we conducted extensive interviews with

         15  members of the British battalion, with members of other

         16  international agencies such as the U.N. High

         17  Commissioner for Refugees, the ECMM, as well as those

         18  who had survived the events in Ahmici.

         19            This report reflects the findings of that

         20  mission, in addition to information coming from other

         21  sources, relating, for example, to the city of Mostar

         22  and other events which we did not directly

         23  investigate.

         24       Q.   Regarding the facts on Ahmici, which you did

         25  investigate, could you tell us, roughly, what was the

Page 1227

          1  date, if you remember, or how many times you went to

          2  Ahmici?

          3       A.   We arrived in the town of Vitez on the 30th

          4  of April and left on the 7th of May.  So we were there

          5  approximately one week.  During this period, we visited

          6  Ahmici on three occasions, I believe, on May 1st, 2nd

          7  and 6th.  During this period, we also once visited the

          8  survivors of the attack on Ahmici in the neighbouring

          9  city of Zenica, in addition to conducting interviews

         10  with some of the commanders who may have been involved

         11  in that attack.

         12       Q.   Let us comment on your visit to Ahmici,

         13  please.  Could you tell us what struck you, in

         14  particular, in this village of Ahmici?

         15       A.   The scale of destruction was quite

         16  extensive.  I believe that from approximately 150 to

         17  200 homes in the village, there were fewer than 20

         18  which had not been destroyed.  The scale of destruction

         19  was extensive.  There were homes which, some two weeks

         20  after the attack, were still smouldering.

         21            There was also a real, what would I describe

         22  as, smell of death in the village.  One could sense

         23  that there were still many bodies which had not been

         24  recovered from underneath the rubble.  There was

         25  virtually not a living creature in the village.  Even

Page 1228

          1  dogs, cats, and cattle had been killed and were lying

          2  all over the roads.

          3            So I think on the whole, what struck me was

          4  the total and all-embracing form of the destruction of

          5  this village and its inhabitants.

          6       Q.   Could you, with the permission of the

          7  President, approach this aerial photograph showing the

          8  village of Ahmici, and with the pointer on your left,

          9  indicate the area of the village which you specifically

         10  visited during the several visits that you made to

         11  Ahmici?

         12       A.   I will simply describe the various locations

         13  which we visited on the three occasions, not

         14  necessarily indicating the order in which they were

         15  seen.

         16            This, I believe, is the road from which we

         17  arrived.  We visited the area immediately adjacent to

         18  the Catholic cemetery, because according to some of the

         19  members of the British battalion who had escorted us to

         20  this region, this field right here was an area in which

         21  several bodies, up to 20 bodies, had been recovered.

         22  Their impression was that this so-called "killing

         23  field" was where a number of people who were escaping

         24  in a southerly direction from the north of the village

         25  may have been ambushed.

Page 1229

          1            We checked this small hollow, which is

          2  adjacent to the field, and noticed that there were a

          3  large number of spent shell casings, indicating that

          4  this area may have been used as a staging area for the

          5  ambush by the snipers.

          6            We travelled up this road to the area where

          7  the mosque had been destroyed.  This is the mosque with

          8  the minaret, because there were two mosques, one

          9  further up the road, I believe, in this area.  Here we

         10  inspected the damage to the mosque and the destroyed

         11  minaret and did a small survey of the neighbouring

         12  homes in order to appraise the extent of the damage.

         13            We also went further up the road, as I

         14  explained, to the upper mosque, which had been gutted

         15  by fire, and on another occasion inspected some of the

         16  homes in this area, as well as a bit further up the

         17  road.

         18            That, I think, is more or less the areas of

         19  the village which we visited.

         20       Q.   Regarding what the members of the British

         21  battalion called the "killing fields," it is the field

         22  that you pointed to adjacent to the Catholic cemetery;

         23  isn't it?

         24       A.   Adjacent to the Catholic cemetery.

         25       Q.   Do you remember what the members of the

Page 1230

          1  British battalion told you regarding the bodies that

          2  they found in that field?  Were they combatants,

          3  civilians, men, women or children?

          4       A.   According to the members of the British

          5  battalion, the 20 people who were found in this

          6  so-called "killing field" were almost exclusively women

          7  and children, with possibly also some elderly

          8  individuals.

          9       Q.   Close to this "killing field," to use the

         10  term coined, you found traces of ammunition, ammunition

         11  shells, shell cases.  Can you tell me what kind of

         12  weapons were in question?

         13       A.   When we did the survey of the various homes,

         14  we counted, on average, anywhere from 30 to 50 spent

         15  shell casings around the homes, indicating that a

         16  considerable amount of ammunition had been used in the

         17  attack, also indicating that much of the ammunition was

         18  used in the immediate proximity of the home rather than

         19  at some distance.

         20            The ammunition included the spent shell

         21  casings of bullets which would ordinarily be used in

         22  machine guns, but we found also some spent shell

         23  casings which, according to the British battalion,

         24  belonged to anti-aircraft guns.  These weapons were

         25  used, on occasion, in attacks on personnel, although

Page 1231

          1  they were not intended for that purpose.

          2            We also found remnants of what I would call

          3  grenades which are shot from -- I forget the name of

          4  the weapon.  Well, they're grenade launchers, and they

          5  have rather big shell casings.  We also found some of

          6  those.

          7            I believe that there were also, in certain

          8  cases, empty or broken bottles which were apparently

          9  used to carry petrol or gasoline or other flammable

         10  liquid.

         11       Q.   Did you examine the insides of some of the

         12  houses to have as detailed an idea as possible of how

         13  these homes were incinerated?

         14       A.   We inspected a number of homes.  The

         15  impression which we gathered is -- well, clearly that

         16  the homes were set on fire.  There were various reasons

         17  why we came to that conclusion.  For one thing, the

         18  nature of the combat was not such that homes would

         19  catch on fire, let's say, because of cross-fire or the

         20  use of heavy weaponry.  The attack was predominantly by

         21  means of guns, which would normally not result in homes

         22  going on fire.

         23            But what impressed us the most was the

         24  intensity of some of the fires and the manner in which

         25  certain parts of the home were burnt, to the point

Page 1232

          1  where there was a black shine on the wood, suggesting

          2  that the fire was one set by the use of gasoline or

          3  some other flammable liquid.

          4            As I said, virtually every home, with the

          5  exception of maybe 15 or 20, had been destroyed by

          6  means of fire.

          7       Q.   During your various visits to Ahmici, you

          8  accompanied representatives of the British battalion of

          9  UNPROFOR.  Did you encounter inhabitants of Ahmici in

         10  Ahmici during the course of that visit to Ahmici?

         11       A.   Yes.  We encountered an elderly woman with

         12  two young children, who could have been her

         13  grandchildren, possibly, walking through the village.

         14  We approached her in order to see if she would be

         15  willing to speak to us about the events which

         16  transpired in Ahmici on April the 16th and if she could

         17  possibly help us identify some of the perpetrators.

         18            At this point, we noticed that there was

         19  sniper fire coming in our direction, indicating that

         20  someone was not happy with us speaking with this lady.

         21  So we had to leave that area and go immediately back to

         22  the armoured personnel carrier.

         23       Q.   I would now like for us to talk about the

         24  encounters you had with some of the survivors who were

         25  chased out of Ahmici and whom you met with in Zenica.

Page 1233

          1  Could you tell this Tribunal where these survivors were

          2  located from Ahmici?

          3       A.   The survivors were located through the

          4  assistance of an institution in Zenica which, I

          5  believe, was the centre for the collection of evidence

          6  on genocide and war crimes.  I believe that this was a

          7  governmental agency, although I'm not sure.

          8            They identified the location where 150

          9  survivors of Ahmici, who had been detained in a school

         10  in Dubravica, I believe, by the HVO, were located.  I

         11  believe the location was possibly a cinema or some

         12  other large community centre which was being used

         13  temporarily as a refugee centre.

         14            We met there with about 50 or 60 of the

         15  survivors of the Ahmici attack.  Almost all of them

         16  were women or young children, with a few elderly males

         17  in their midst.  We asked them about the events which

         18  had transpired on that date, having spent several hours

         19  speaking with them, trying to see whether the stories

         20  coming from the different individuals were consistent

         21  or not.

         22            Almost all of them gave roughly the same

         23  description of the attack, suggesting that it had

         24  commenced very early in the morning around the time

         25  when the morning call to prayer had taken place at the

Page 1234

          1  minaret, that the attack had begun through explosions

          2  towards the north of the village which, presumably, was

          3  the result of a mortar attack, and that subsequent to

          4  that, there had been heavy gunfire, soldiers going from

          5  door to door indiscriminately shooting at buildings.

          6  Very often there were stories, accounts, of people

          7  being taken out of homes and executed.  There were

          8  accounts of petrol being poured in the floor of homes

          9  or being thrown through windows and homes set on fire.

         10            One small girl recounted how her father had

         11  been lured out of their home on the promise that he

         12  would not be harmed and how he had been shot as soon as

         13  he left his home.  There were accounts of various

         14  instances of killing.  I think that I remember only one

         15  or two cases where people managed to escape because a

         16  member of the HVO decided not to kill them.  There was

         17  one lady whose husband had been killed, and apparently

         18  the perpetrator knew her from before and had decided to

         19  spare her life, and he had simply told her that she

         20  should rush off and save her life, and that he would

         21  not harm her.

         22            We wanted to make sure that we would know the

         23  identity of the perpetrators.  Of course, we were not

         24  involved with a criminal investigation.  We were human

         25  rights investigators.  We were involved in the

Page 1235

          1  attribution of liability to a state or, where a state

          2  does not exist in the context of such an armed

          3  conflict, the de facto authorities which exercised

          4  authority over that region.

          5            Almost all the survivors, without exception,

          6  told us that the soldiers were wearing HVO uniforms

          7  with the distinctive insignia of those armed forces.

          8  We tried to make sure that the soldiers were not

          9  members of another paramilitary formation, such as HOS

         10  or the others who were operating through the region.

         11            What convinced us that this attack was,

         12  indeed, committed by the HVO was the fact that, even in

         13  the short amount of time that we had, the witnesses

         14  came up with the names of 18 perpetrators, all of whom

         15  they knew by name, because they were either their own

         16  neighbours or people whom they knew from neighbouring

         17  villages.  At that point, we were convinced that the

         18  HVO, indeed, had been responsible for the attack.

         19       Q.   Do you remember a man whose name was Sakib

         20  Ahmic?

         21       A.   Sakib Ahmic, correct.  The gentleman in

         22  question was interviewed by my colleague, (redacted)

         23  (redacted), on the following day, I believe, in a hospital

         24  in Zenica where he was recovering from burns which he

         25  had sustained on his body.  According to the testimony

Page 1236

          1  of Sakib Ahmic, he had been hiding in the back of a

          2  couch when the HVO units had attacked the home of

          3  either his son or daughter, I don't recall, but he was

          4  staying at the home of one of his children.

          5            He had heard gunshots, after which he saw the

          6  man and woman of the house fall to the ground.  There

          7  were also two children in this home, according to him,

          8  one an infant of less than six months, and another a

          9  child of three to four years.  He said that after

         10  hearing the gunshots, and while he was not certain if

         11  the people had actually been killed by the gunfire or

         12  not, that the HVO soldiers began to pour petrol over

         13  the home, after which he set the home on fire, not

         14  knowing that he was hiding behind the couch.

         15            He managed somehow to escape through a window

         16  and to arrive at Zenica where he was treated for very

         17  bad burns which he had sustained on his hands and feet

         18  and the side of his body.  Based on his testimony, we

         19  revisited Ahmici, I believe, on the 6th of May,

         20  together with three European Community ambassadors from

         21  Spain, France, and Britain respectively, who were on a

         22  diplomatic mission to try and stabilise the situation

         23  in the Lasva Valley region.

         24            We went to the home which Sakib Ahmic had

         25  described, based on a crude map which he had drawn on a

Page 1237

          1  piece of paper, and we found the home, and indeed, we

          2  also found the bodies of the four individuals.  There

          3  were clearly two adults.  One of the bodies was simply

          4  a vertebra and a skull.  Another body still had the rib

          5  cage attached, but the bodies, in general, were not

          6  complete.  But one could tell that there were two

          7  adults.

          8            Then there were the remains of what appeared

          9  to be an infant and a child, although they were so

         10  badly burned, that only with great care was it possible

         11  to understand that they were actually human beings.  At

         12  first, we thought maybe they were some fabric or

         13  something else which had been burnt.

         14            I believe that after our visit, members of

         15  the British battalion took these bodies and gave them a

         16  proper burial.

         17            MR. TERRIER:  Mr. President, I request that

         18  we be able to show a video, which is a news real made

         19  by Scan News made on 6 May, 1993 during the time of the

         20  visit which Mr. Akhavan and (redacted) made to Ahmici.

         21  This was, of course, with the British battalion, a film

         22  which this Tribunal has not had the opportunity yet to

         23  see, but this is something that we would like to show

         24  Mr. Akhavan now.

         25            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes.

Page 1238

          1                 (Videotape played)

          2            MR. TERRIER:  This brief film was not shown

          3  at that particular time, but I hope, nonetheless, that

          4  this video will be tendered as a Prosecution exhibit,

          5  and the Trial Chamber, of course, have the opportunity

          6  to see that.

          7            THE REGISTRAR:  Prosecution Exhibit 83.

          8            MR. TERRIER:

          9       Q.   Mr. Akhavan, during that mission in Central

         10  Bosnia, in order to clarify what exactly happened, did

         11  you meet with the political authorities or military

         12  authorities from the Bosnian Croats?

         13       A.   Yes, we did.  During the day that my

         14  colleague went to meet Sakib Ahmic in Zenica, I went to

         15  meet with the leading authorities of the HVO in the

         16  Lasva Valley region.  I met first with then Colonel

         17  Blaskic at his headquarters in Vitez, after which I met

         18  with Mario Cerkez, who, I believe, was the head of the

         19  HVO in Vitez.  After that, I met with Dario Kordic, who

         20  was the vice-president of the HVO and the HDZ political

         21  party, I believe, in the Herceg-Bosna community.

         22       Q.   Among these various political and military

         23  authorities, did you ask of them what might have

         24  happened in their own assessment in Ahmici?

         25       A.   Yes.  The purpose of the meetings was to try

Page 1239

          1  and see whether there were any plausible alternate

          2  theories or explanations as to what may have transpired

          3  in Ahmici.

          4            None of the people with whom we spoke

          5  admitted that the HVO were involved in these crimes.

          6  To the contrary, they insisted that the HVO, being

          7  professional soldiers of high rectitude and conduct,

          8  could not be involved in such terrible actions, but

          9  there were no plausible alternative explanations

         10  offered.

         11            Dario Kordic, at one point, tried to suggest

         12  that the Serbs may have committed this crime or that

         13  Muslim extremists themselves may have committed the

         14  crime in order to gain international sympathy.  None of

         15  those theories were plausible, in light of the

         16  consistent and overwhelming testimony of the witnesses

         17  with whom we had spoken, and in light of the fact that

         18  Ahmici was, perhaps, only two kilometres away from the

         19  HVO military headquarters in Vitez.

         20            It would have been exceptionally difficult,

         21  for example, for a group of Serbs to cross the lines

         22  undetected, numbering in the vicinity of 50 to 100

         23  soldiers, and to commit such an attack undetected.

         24            So after those meetings, we were further

         25  confirmed in our conclusion that this was an attack

Page 1240

          1  perpetrated by the HVO forces.

          2       Q.   Did you advise those Croatian authorities

          3  with whom you met of any conclusions from your own

          4  report?

          5       A.   We had not yet prepared the report.

          6  Naturally, we were still in the course of gathering the

          7  necessary facts.  After the report was issued, I

          8  believe that it was circulated to all the appropriate

          9  sources, including, for example, the government of the

         10  Republic of Croatia, the government of

         11  Bosnia-Herzegovina.

         12            We did not formally give this report to the

         13  authorities in the Lasva Valley region, since it was

         14  not really our mandate to do so.  We submit these

         15  reports to Geneva.  After an editing process, they

         16  become official documents of the Commission for Human

         17  Rights.  At that point, there is a standard

         18  distribution of these documents to the member states of

         19  the Commission for Human Rights, and so on and so

         20  forth.

         21            But I do know that the authorities in

         22  Herceg-Bosna did ultimately receive this report, and I

         23  know this because they sent a letter, a long letter, to

         24  Tadeusz Mazowiecki criticising the report, suggesting

         25  that it was one-sided, suggesting that it was

Page 1241

          1  inaccurate.

          2       Q.   To your knowledge, did these Bosnian Croat

          3  authorities conduct an investigation regarding what

          4  happened in Ahmici in April 1993?

          5       A.   I was aware that there was discussion of an

          6  agreement between the Bosnian government side and the

          7  Bosnian Croat side suggesting that they were willing to

          8  undertake an investigation.  To the best of my

          9  knowledge, no such investigation ever took place.

         10  Certainly, we did not hear of any individual being

         11  prosecuted or punished for the events in Ahmici.

         12       Q.   Did any of the Croat contacts make mention of

         13  any loss of life among the Croats or damage to any

         14  property owned by Croats in the Lasva Valley on that

         15  date of the 16th of April, 1993?

         16       A.   With respect to the village of Ahmici, no.

         17  None of the authorities which we met suggested that

         18  there was any sort of property damage or casualties

         19  among the HVO units.

         20       Q.   Outside the village of Ahmici, did you learn

         21  of any other losses suffered by Croat inhabitants,

         22  outside the village of Ahmici in the Lasva Valley?

         23       A.   There were two occasions where we came across

         24  Croatian casualties.  In the city of Vitez, we were

         25  told by the padre of the British battalion that a few

Page 1242

          1  days ago they had buried 101 individuals who had been

          2  killed in the fighting in Vitez.  Of those 101 people,

          3  96 were Muslims and five were Croats.

          4            In the case of a small hamlet called

          5  Miletici, which was a few kilometres away from Vitez,

          6  we came across evidence that certain renegade elements,

          7  popularly referred to as the Mujahedin, had come to

          8  this village and apparently beheaded three or four

          9  young Croatian men of fighting age in that village.

         10            So the evidence which we had is that, for

         11  example, in the case of Vitez, that some Croats may

         12  have been killed in the cross-fire or in the actual

         13  fighting that was occurring in Vitez because, indeed,

         14  the Muslims did control one part of the city.

         15            In the case of Miletici, we saw what appeared

         16  to be a random act of violence by criminal elements,

         17  but the case of Ahmici, I think, could be

         18  distinguished.  There was very little evidence, if any,

         19  that there was any sustained or organised military

         20  resistance in Ahmici, as distinguished, for example, in

         21  Vitez, where even two weeks after the events of April

         22  the 16th, the Bosnian Muslims still controlled part of

         23  the city.

         24       Q.   What happened in Ahmici, as you described,

         25  did this occur after the 16th of April, 1993?  Did that

Page 1243

          1  happen later in Ahmici?

          2       A.   I'm sorry.  Did what happen after April

          3  16th?  The visit to Miletici or the events in

          4  Miletici?

          5       Q.   The events which took place in Miletici, did

          6  they take place after the events in Ahmici?

          7       A.   Yes.  Our impression was that the killings

          8  were in retaliation.  I believe that it was after April

          9  the 16th that the killings in Miletici took place, but

         10  the killings in Vitez took place during the fighting, I

         11  believe, on and after April the 16th.

         12       Q.   In order to be very clear and to be clear

         13  about your personal intervention and also the meaning

         14  and significance of your report, your objective, I'm

         15  speaking now about the human rights report, was it

         16  designed then to find out who was responsible,

         17  individual responsibility, or to just make a report

         18  about what had happened?

         19       A.   The report, as I had explained earlier, was

         20  not to attribute individual criminal liability, but was

         21  to establish the responsibility of the entity which

         22  should bear liability under international law for those

         23  human rights violations.  The mandate of the human

         24  rights special rapporteur in such a situation is to

         25  determine the responsibility of state authorities for

Page 1244

          1  particular violations.

          2            In the case of an internal armed conflict or

          3  an international armed conflict where there is a

          4  disintegration of state authorities, and it's not

          5  possible to attribute liability to a state in the

          6  ordinary sense, then one looks at those authorities

          7  which exercise a de facto control over a given area,

          8  irrespective of their status as a state or other

          9  entity.

         10            In this case, the entity which we were

         11  involved with was the Croatian community of

         12  Herceg-Bosna which exercised the de facto powers of a

         13  government or state in that territory.

         14       Q.   To place this into a certain context, on the

         15  date of that report, when it came out, this Tribunal

         16  did not yet exist; is that right?

         17       A.   Correct.

         18            MR. TERRIER:  Mr. President, I have no

         19  further questions.  I would simply wish to submit or

         20  tender a number of documents to the witness and also to

         21  this Court.  These were taken on the 6th of May or

         22  during the days that followed, perhaps the 7th of May.

         23  These photographs were taken by the members of the

         24  BRITBAT from UNPROFOR, and these are photographs taken

         25  in the house of Sakib Ahmic.  These are photographs

Page 1245

          1  taken of the cadavers found in those houses.

          2            Some of these photographs will, perhaps, call

          3  for a commentary from the witness, but perhaps a brief

          4  commentary.

          5            THE REGISTRAR:  Prosecution Exhibit 84.

          6            MR. TERRIER:

          7       Q.   Could you please look at these photographs

          8  that are going to be shown to you rather quickly and

          9  comment on those which you think deserve commenting?

         10  Do you recognise the things that you were able to see

         11  with your own eyes when you visited that house of Sakib

         12  Ahmic?

         13       A.   Yes.  This is the body of one of the adults

         14  which we found in the home which Sakib Ahmic had

         15  described in an area which was probably the living room

         16  or a bedroom.  I'm not sure.  All the walls had

         17  collapsed in the home.  It was difficult to tell.  This

         18  was the body which, as I explained, still had the rib

         19  cage intact, whereas the other body still only had the

         20  vertebra and the skull.  It seemed as if the body had

         21  not yet fully decomposed.

         22       Q.   If the photographs that are being shown to

         23  you require no commentary, please just confirm that

         24  they were all taken in Sakib Ahmic's house.

         25            THE REGISTRAR:  Prosecution Exhibit 85.

Page 1246

          1       A.   This is probably the body of either the

          2  infant or the child, based on its size and the fact

          3  that it was burned very badly.

          4            THE REGISTRAR:  Prosecution Exhibit 86.

          5            MR. TERRIER:

          6       Q.   Is this still another photograph taken in the

          7  home of Sakib Ahmic?

          8       A.   Yes.  I believe that that is the room in

          9  which we found all of the bodies.

         10       Q.   What are all the objects that we see on the

         11  floor there?

         12       A.   I believe that those were the shingles which

         13  were used on the roof of the house.

         14       Q.   The next photograph, please?

         15            THE REGISTRAR:  Prosecution Exhibit 87.

         16       A.   I believe that that is the same rib cage of

         17  the adult which we had seen earlier.  I presume these

         18  were the members of the British battalion that came

         19  after our departure in order to take the bodies away

         20  and to give them a burial.

         21            Once again, the body of one of the adults.

         22  These, I suppose, as I explained, are the British

         23  battalion members putting the bodies in nylon bags so

         24  that they could be taken away and buried, still in the

         25  same home as I described earlier.

Page 1247

          1            I think we've already viewed this picture.

          2            MR. TERRIER:

          3       Q.   Do you know where the bodies that were found

          4  in this house were taken by the British battalion,

          5  where they were transported and buried?

          6       A.   I'm not certain in this particular case, but,

          7  in general, bodies were taken to Zenica where autopsies

          8  were performed in the morgue.  I'm not sure in this

          9  particular case where they were taken.

         10            This, once again, I believe, is one of the

         11  bodies of the children.  This is probably the body of

         12  the infant, given the size.

         13       Q.   When you speak of the smallest child, you

         14  mean an infant, the child of the age of an infant, a

         15  baby.  Does that conform with what Mr. Sakib Ahmic had

         16  told you previously?

         17       A.   That's correct.  Once again, by the size, I

         18  believe that this should be probably the infant, given

         19  the size.  Of course, it's very difficult to tell,

         20  because the bodies were burnt so badly, and in many

         21  cases, bits and pieces of the body were missing.  So

         22  the size can sometimes be misleading.

         23       Q.   And the object on the photograph, at the same

         24  time as the human remains, allows us to judge the size

         25  of the remains.

Page 1248

          1            Next photograph, please.

          2       A.   If my memory serves me correctly, we entered

          3  this room from this door here, and the bodies of the

          4  adults were towards this end of the room, and the body

          5  of the infant and the child towards this end.

          6       Q.   Is the threshold that we see at the top of

          7  the photograph, is that the entrance into the house?

          8       A.   I believe it's the entrance into this room of

          9  the house.  My impression was that the actual entrance

         10  was located somewhere here, but I'm not entirely sure

         11  of that.

         12            Once again, I'm assuming this is remnants of

         13  the child, probably not the infant.

         14            MR. TERRIER:  We have no more photographs?

         15            THE REGISTRAR:  No, that was the last, and

         16  the number is 69.

         17            MR. TERRIER:  Mr. President, could 82 to 96

         18  be admitted into evidence?  And I have no further

         19  questions.

         20            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  I think it is too

         21  late for the cross-examination, so we will now adjourn

         22  and resume work tomorrow at 9.30.

         23                 --- Whereupon hearing adjourned at

         24                 4.25 p.m. to be reconvened on Friday,

         25                 the 28th day of August, 1998 at

Page 1249

          1                 9.30 a.m.