980828ED

Page 1250

1 Friday, 28th August 1998

2 (Open session)

3 (The accused entered court)

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-16-T, the Prosecutor

6 versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko

7 Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic and Vladimir

8 Santic know as Vlado.

9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Good morning.

10 Before we move on to our next witness, may I discuss a

11 few housekeeping matters?

12 First of all, let me tell you that I have

13 already written and signed and even filed a request to

14 the President of our Tribunal concerning the visit to

15 Ahmici. You will find it in a few hours, because it's

16 being processed by the Registry.

17 Informally she is agreeable, but, of course

18 -- when I got in touch with her she said she was

19 agreeable, but, of course, she and the Registrar will

20 have to look at the financial and security

21 implications.

22 Now, if money is available and the security

23 problems are sorted out, we will have to propose

24 something specific to the Registrar, and so,

25 therefore -- about practical arrangements. I wonder if

Page 1251

1 we could know from the Defence and Prosecution how many

2 members of the two teams are prepared and willing to go

3 to Ahmici, and in particular, as far as the Defence is

4 concerned, whether they would leave from here, The

5 Hague, with the whole team, or whether they prefer to

6 go there from Croatia. So I wonder whether

7 Mr. Pavkovic could kindly get in touch with Mr. Terrier

8 later on today or Monday to sort out all these

9 practical arrangements and make a proposal to the

10 Registrar, or to the Court about the practical side of

11 this matter.

12 I see Mr. Pavkovic would like to say a few

13 things.

14 MR. PAVKOVIC: No, Your Honour. Really, we

15 will meet with the Prosecution after we have,

16 ourselves, coordinated the matter, and we will inform

17 you duly.

18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Pavkovic.

19 Now, the second point relates to the list of

20 Defence witnesses filed, by counsel for Vlatko

21 Kupreskic, a few days ago. I wonder whether the

22 Prosecution are prepared to tell us now about their

23 reaction to that list, whether they intend also to

24 call also some of the ten witnesses the Defence counsel

25 for Vlatko Kupreskic proposes to call. Mr. Terrier?

Page 1252

1 MR. TERRIER: Good morning, Your Honour.

2 Good morning, Your Honours. On that list of witnesses

3 which was submitted to us by the Defence for Vlatko

4 Kupreskic, we do not have any intention to call any of

5 those witnesses.

6 JUDGE CASSESE: Very well. Thank you.

7 Now, the third point, I gather that the

8 Prosecution have requested the postponement of

9 Mr. Akhavan's cross-examination. We have to accept

10 this postponement somewhat reluctantly, because, of

11 course, it's more efficient and judicially economical

12 to have the cross-examination after the examination.

13 But as the Romans used to say, "Ad impossibilia nemo

14 tenetur," so nobody is duty-bound to something which

15 that is totally impossible.

16 However, I would like to take this

17 opportunity to thank the Defence for kindly accepting

18 this postponement. I understand Mr. Akhavan will come

19 here on Monday.

20 Now, the final point is about the witnesses

21 for next week. You know, so far we, in the Court, we

22 have received the various witness statements in dribs

23 and drabs, and I've been trying to have a list of their

24 statements, as well as the actual text of the

25 statements. I wonder whether the Prosecution could be

Page 1253

1 so kind as to give us a sort of consolidated list of at

2 least the dates of the various statements made by each

3 witness, because I am a bit mystified about the -- how

4 many statements have been made by each witness. In one

5 case I counted almost five or six. I mean, in the case

6 of Witness 8. I don't know whether we can mention that

7 name, number 8 in the last -- is he a protected

8 witness, number 8?

9 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes.

10 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. So number 8, a lot of

11 statements. So if we could get a list -- at least a

12 list of their statements with the dates when they were

13 made. I have prepared my own list but I am not sure

14 whether it is correct.

15 MR. TERRIER: Yes, Mr. President, we will

16 make an effort to submit those documents. Please

17 understand that not all of these witness statements

18 were taken in the same manner by the same authorities,

19 and nor are all related to the same proceedings. Some

20 statements, for example, for Witness number 7 on that

21 list, was recorded on videotape and that was a

22 transcript that was submitted, of course, to the

23 Defence. So sometimes you must understand it is

24 difficult to submit that kind of list, but we will make

25 an effort to do so, nonetheless, this afternoon.

Page 1254

1 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. I think it will

2 be useful to receive that list as soon as possible,

3 because the weather here at The Hague is conducive to

4 much work even over the weekend. So we can take

5 advantage, at least, of the bad weather.

6 Final point, and here, of course, I don't

7 want to interfere with the discretionary power of the

8 Prosecution to decide upon their own strategy

9 concerning the order of appearance of witnesses, but I

10 was wondering whether, having read carefully, I think,

11 the statements of -- nine, the next witnesses for next

12 week, I was wondering whether there's a particular

13 reason why you have, for instance, separated number 7

14 from number 10. If I am not wrong, they deal with the

15 same episode and might prove useful for the Court to

16 hear these witnesses one after the other, As for

17 number 8, of course, this is going to be a crucial

18 witness, and I wonder whether you realistically plan to

19 call him next week, because judging from the pace of

20 our proceedings, it is likely that this would be put

21 off until after the break, the one-week break.

22 But as I say, it is for you. We fully

23 respect your discretionary power, your right to decide

24 upon the order. But just to make our proceedings more

25 efficient, and also to get a better picture, I thought

Page 1255

1 you might wish to reconsider the order in which you

2 intend to call those witnesses.

3 For instance, I take the liberty of humbly

4 suggesting that, for instance, number 8 might be

5 brought forward so that we know whether he will be

6 heard next week or after the break, and then number 7

7 and number 10 could be put together. It's for you to

8 decide.

9 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, yes, indeed, we

10 will reflect on the issue you've just raised.

11 Nonetheless, I would like to remind the Court that

12 sometimes we might deal with very difficult logistical

13 matters. These people are coming from far away, and

14 sometimes we must follow these wishes they express,

15 which are legitimate, and we must try to satisfy these

16 wishes, and which means that at times, indeed, and we

17 have spoken with this Tribunal about this matter in the

18 beginning of this trial, that at times we'll be

19 required to interrupt some of the logical order in

20 which these witnesses may appear. We regret this will

21 be the case, but sometimes we cannot do otherwise.

22 Today, indeed, I do share your sentiments and

23 sentiments of the court. I believe that there is a

24 legitimate observation made, that the

25 examination-in-chief of Mr. Akhavan and -- the

Page 1260

1 A. My father, my mother, my sister and myself.

2 Q. How old was your sister in 1993?

3 A. In 1993 she was 17.

4 Q. From what area or city are you originally

5 from?

6 A. From Travnik.

7 Q. On what date and for what reason did you

8 arrive in Ahmici?

9 A. Between 20th and 25 November. We came to

10 Ahmici because we were expelled from the place where we

11 lived by the Serbian army.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the

13 Prosecutor.

14 MR. TERRIER: We would like to submit to the

15 witness an aerial photo. This will show the

16 neighbourhood -- this will enable the witness to

17 indicate in which neighbourhood he was living in Ahmici

18 in 1992.

19 JUDGE CASSESE: The Registrar has rightly

20 pointed out that we should probably go into closed

21 session now because of the picture, the photograph

22 you're going to show. So we go into closed session.

23 (Closed session)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1261

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (Open session)

16 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Radovic?

17 MR. RADOVIC: The Prosecutor just asked the

18 witness to identify the -- his house on the basis of

19 the aerial photograph. I personally believe that to

20 make such identification on the basis of a house

21 already encircled on a photograph does not really

22 constitute a real identification. It is simply showing

23 a location that the witness is advised ahead of time.

24 MR. TERRIER: Yes, indeed, this is an

25 indication made by the witness of where he was living.

Page 1262

1 I believe it is indisputable that it is the house which

2 he was living in with his family. I do not believe

3 that there is any real question in dispute.

4 JUDGE CASSESE: I agree with the Prosecutor.

5 It is not in dispute. If you start objecting even to

6 minor things, such as the photograph and the picture of

7 the house where he was living, then the trial will end

8 maybe in two years' time. This is really a question

9 which is not in dispute. If you have any objection on

10 the merits, then you can put your objection to the

11 Court.

12 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, I agree with you

13 with respect to this witness. He did live in this

14 house. However, I have noticed that on a number of

15 aerial photographs which were shown to other witnesses

16 previously where it was very crucial that a witness

17 recognises or identifies it, they were already

18 pre-marked.

19 So in this particular case, I agree with

20 you. But in principle, I disagree with the method

21 where the witness is shown pre-marked photographs. As

22 far as this particular photograph is concerned, we

23 really can go on.

24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. But also in

25 future, as I say, if the Prosecutor prefers to present

Page 1263

1 pre-marked photographs with a circle around a house,

2 you are most welcome to object if you find that the

3 indication of that house is in dispute, if you dispute

4 the indication of that house. But as far as the

5 method, the approach is concerned, I don't think it is

6 questionable.

7 Let us leave it for the future.

8 You may proceed, Mr. Terrier.

9 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I believe there

10 are no objections with regards that witness and the

11 indication made by the witness as to the location of

12 his house. I would also like to make an observation

13 that the circle is fairly large, and within that

14 circle, there are several houses, and that the witness

15 indicated or pointed out one of the houses within that

16 circle marked 1.

17 I would like to continue with my questions.

18 Q. Witness, do you remember the day of the 15th

19 of April, 1993?

20 A. Yes, I do remember it.

21 Q. Can you please explain to this Court the days

22 that preceded the attack on Ahmici?

23 A. On the 15th of April, 1993, I was in the

24 house almost the whole day. I was watching television,

25 Busovaca TV, and there was some kind of a parade of the

Page 1264

1 Croatian army. I did not pay that much attention to

2 it, but I recall a detail. It was a commander, whom I

3 did not know, and he said, "Tomorrow, we are going to

4 attack Jajce," even though we all knew that Jajce had

5 fallen about two or three months earlier, sometime in

6 October.

7 Q. Jajce fell into the hands of the forces in

8 the western part of Bosnia, above Travnik, and it fell

9 into which hands?

10 A. It fell to the Serbian army.

11 Q. Is what you heard on television reports about

12 the war against the Serbs?

13 A. I don't know that. But we all knew that at

14 that time, it was very difficult given the numbers of

15 them at that parade. It was incomprehensible, almost,

16 to see all these people going to Jajce.

17 Q. Witness, would you please go back to what you

18 recall about the 16th of April, 1993, in the morning?

19 A. Yes. On 16 April, 1993, at 5.50, we were

20 awakened by shooting. We got up. I was the first to

21 get up and open the window in the hallway of the

22 house. I saw two soldiers in front of our house, that

23 is, the house where we were staying, who were standing

24 near the house of Husein Ahmic, and they called him out

25 and they ordered him to stand against a wall.

Page 1265

1 I closed the window and returned to my family

2 and told them that these HVO soldiers had passed over

3 our house, that we could not go out, that we had to

4 wait to see what would happen next.

5 We waited in the bedroom until ten past six.

6 You could hear the soldiers walking about. There were

7 some bars on our windows. First we heard a kick and

8 then, with their rifle butts, they smashed the windows,

9 and I told my family that we should go because they

10 would throw in a hand grenade. So we went to the

11 kitchen, and as I was closing the door, a hand grenade

12 exploded in the room.

13 I told them to move to the hallway, and as we

14 went there, the second hand grenade exploded in the

15 kitchen. Then we knew that we had to leave there. My

16 mother went out first, followed by my sister, my

17 father, and then I came out of the house last.

18 As soon as we came out, there was a fence at

19 the end of the property, and just on the other side of

20 the fence, we saw two dead bodies.

21 There were two soldiers who were on the road

22 in front of our house, about 10 metres away. They told

23 us, "Hands up and bow your heads and run uphill."

24 We started walking towards them. My father

25 was the last. He was the fourth. However, two

Page 1266

1 additional soldiers stood at the corner of the house,

2 to the right of us, and one of them said, "You, the

3 tall one. Come over here." The three of us, my

4 mother, my sister, and myself went towards the two

5 soldiers who were standing on the road. As we were

6 passing them, I saw two additional dead bodies there.

7 I turned around and my sister also turned

8 around to see where my father was going, and the

9 soldier who was on the road said, "Don't turn around.

10 Keep going. Keep moving." I sort of showed with my

11 head to my sister that she should run. I also turned

12 around once, and I saw my father walking with his hands

13 up. He was walking towards them. The same soldier who

14 was on the road, who had already told us not to turn

15 around, said again, "Don't turn around." I saw that my

16 mother couldn't walk, she was too excited, and I helped

17 her.

18 We moved away maybe 10, 15 metres away from

19 the soldiers, and we heard shots. We did not dare turn

20 around. I did not know whether they had killed my

21 father or whether they had killed the landlord with

22 whom we were staying.

23 Q. Witness, I must interrupt you one moment and

24 ask for a number of clarifications at this time about

25 what you stated.

Page 1267

1 With regards to those two soldiers that you

2 saw from your window, the window of your house and who

3 were stopping the person who you named as Husein Ahmic,

4 can you please describe how those two soldiers were

5 dressed?

6 A. Yes, I do remember. Camouflage uniforms,

7 multi-coloured, automatic rifles. They had anti-tank

8 rocket launchers which they carried over their

9 shoulders, slung. So that is the description of the

10 ones who were in front of his house. That is what I

11 saw.

12 Q. Were they wearing any masks or were their

13 faces painted?

14 A. They had their backs turned to me, and this

15 is why I saw that they had this anti-tank rocket

16 launchers, and I could not see them because I just gave

17 them sort of a cursory look.

18 Q. You mentioned that these two soldiers stopped

19 your neighbour, Husein Ahmic. Would you please explain

20 what happened later?

21 A. They were in front of the house, and they

22 called him out, said, "The old one, come out." And his

23 wife said, "Please don't. Don't. He's an elderly

24 man." However, they did not respond to that.

25 I saw that he walked past them along the

Page 1268

1 wall. It was some kind of a shed or garage, and he was

2 against that wall. I could not see whether they killed

3 him or not because I could not see it from the window,

4 but I recall them putting him against a wall. I don't

5 know what happened after that.

6 Q. Did you see him again after that time,

7 Mr. Husein Ahmic?

8 A. No, we never saw him again.

9 Q. Do you remember how Mr. Husein Ahmic was

10 dressed?

11 A. He had on a pair of trousers and shoes, and

12 now I cannot recall -- there was a shirt. I don't know

13 whether he had a jacket on or whether he carried it

14 over his arm. That, I do not recall.

15 Q. Did he have a weapon?

16 A. No. The man was somewhere between 55 and 60

17 years of age. He was an elderly man.

18 Q. Witness, let us now talk about the two

19 soldiers you saw on the road at the time you left your

20 house with your family. You indicated that two

21 soldiers stopped you and they asked you to raise your

22 hands. Do you remember how these two soldiers were

23 dressed?

24 A. I do remember. The two soldiers who stopped

25 us on the road, one of them was wearing a mask. You

Page 1269

1 could only see his eyes and mouth. The other one had

2 his face painted in black. They were wearing

3 camouflage uniforms and they had automatic rifles on

4 the left -- maybe I'm wrong. But in any event, they

5 did have insignia of the military police which are

6 usually placed on the left or right arm, I don't know.

7 But at any rate, they had the military police insignia.

8 Q. Do you recall the faces of these soldiers, or

9 at least the soldier who was not wearing any type of

10 mask?

11 A. The one who did not have a mask, because his

12 face was really painted fully, so I could not recognise

13 him, but I described him as somebody who was lean and

14 his height was somewhere between 1.80 to 1.85 metres,

15 he had somewhat receding hair and he parted it to the

16 side and that's all I remember. I have no further

17 description of him.

18 Q. At that time, did you feel that you knew this

19 person, that soldier?

20 A. Could you please repeat the question?

21 Q. The soldier you just described, did you have

22 the feeling that you knew him, that you recognised

23 him? Was his face familiar to you?

24 A. I could not tell you because his face was

25 really painted. It's more his height and his being

Page 1270

1 very lanky and his hair, but the face itself I could

2 not recognise because it was all painted in black.

3 Q. So some of his physical appearances were

4 familiar to you. What did that tell you?

5 A. Perhaps I had seen this person once or twice,

6 but there were a lot of persons who looked alike, so I

7 don't know.

8 Q. So you had the feeling that you had already

9 seen that person before. Can you please tell this

10 Court where you felt you had seen that person before?

11 In what circumstances?

12 A. Well, this person that I have just described,

13 I went to the Sutre shop cellar twice, three times, and

14 there I met a similar person. Whether this person was

15 working there in that cellar or not, I really cannot

16 tell, because I would not go there very frequently. I

17 would also go in there for just a short time to buy

18 cigarettes, to buy some provisions like oil or sugar,

19 for a very short time anyway.

20 Q. Let us now talk about the store which is

21 located -- the store called Sutre. Can you please

22 describe it for us? What did the inside of that store

23 look like? How did it look at that time?

24 A. Yes, I can. I cannot tell you specifically

25 the size, the dimensions, but it was about ten times

Page 1271

1 ten or twelve metres, it looked like it had two, two

2 and a half metre high walls, it had a storeroom, it had

3 a ceiling on top. Inside, there were pallets with

4 provisions like flour, and I presume there was cooking

5 oil, sugar there. Then there was a counter, and behind

6 the counter, there were shelves on which you could see

7 bottles of alcohol or cooking oil or provisions. This

8 is it.

9 Q. Do you know who was the owner of that shop?

10 A. The owner was Vlatko Kupreskic.

11 Q. The person who you're referring to, when you

12 saw him in that store, what was he doing? Was that

13 person there as a client or for something else?

14 JUDGE CASSESE: Mrs. Glumac?

15 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, I have

16 an objection to raise. The witness had already stated

17 that he did not know whether this person was working

18 there or not. He said that he saw in the shop a

19 similar-looking person, but he did not know whether

20 this person was working there or not, and I really do

21 not see why he is repeating this question to which

22 actually the witness already answered.

23 JUDGE CASSESE: But I think, judging from the

24 transcript, I think the question put by the Prosecutor

25 was whether the witness knew who was the owner of that

Page 1272

1 shop, and then he said the person you are referring to,

2 when you saw him in that store, what was he doing?

3 He's speaking of the owner of the shop. So probably --

4 yes. Thank you.

5 You may go on, Mr. Terrier. There was

6 probably a problem of translation.

7 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I would like to

8 go on to another question.

9 Q. Witness, do you remember, after your arrival

10 in The Hague, whether a number of photographs were

11 shown to you?

12 A. Yes, I do remember it.

13 Q. Do you remember a photo album representing

14 various persons of the male sex all around the same

15 age, and in all, there were some 24 photographs?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you recognised no one in this album?

18 A. No, I recognised no one on these photographs.

19 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, to completely

20 keep this Court informed, we have a record of the

21 statements made by this witness, information which he

22 will repeat here during his testimony. We have the

23 album of these 24 photographs, and among these 24

24 photographs, there are two of the accused. The witness

25 recognised none of the persons in this photograph

Page 1273

1 album. We would like to make this clear immediately

2 and inform the Defence under Rule 68.

3 I would also like to attach to the case file

4 before this Court, unless there is an objection from

5 the Defence -- I don't believe there would be an

6 objection -- the written statement signed by the

7 witness during this operation which took place on the

8 17th of August, and attached to this statement, we have

9 a photocopy -- you may also have the original, if you

10 wish -- but there is the series of photographs which we

11 showed so that this Tribunal will have a very clear

12 idea of how this operation was carried out.

13 I would then ask the usher ...

14 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Your Honours, we were

15 not able to see what the Prosecutor would like to

16 submit as evidence. We were only provided with a very

17 short notice consisting of one sentence; therefore, we

18 really do not know what is included in this statement

19 and, hence, do not consider this to be admissible as

20 evidence.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 99.

22 JUDGE CASSESE: Why don't you first take a

23 look?

24 Let us leave then this question of

25 admissibility in abeyance, and then after you have had

Page 1274

1 the opportunity to take a look at this statement, you

2 will let us know whether or not you still object.

3 Judging from what Mr. Terrier said a few seconds ago, I

4 think it would be quite admissible, but let us put it

5 off until a bit later.

6 All right. Mr. Terrier, you may go on.

7 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Mr. President. With

8 the authorisation of this Tribunal, I would like to

9 request the witness to do the following: We know from

10 experience that it is at times difficult to recognise

11 someone on a photograph, but that when one is in the

12 physical presence of that person, the conditions may be

13 different and one's memory may be better at that time.

14 I know that the witness was 15 years of age at that

15 time. I also know very well that the witness has lived

16 for a maximum of five months in Ahmici and that five

17 years has gone by.

18 Nonetheless, I feel that it is necessary to

19 ask this witness to determine whether or not, in this

20 courtroom, he is able to recognise --

21 JUDGE MAY: No. If there is an application

22 of this sort, it must be made to the Court, and for

23 myself, I would wish to consider it very carefully in

24 the circumstances of this case.

25 JUDGE CASSESE: That is what Mr. Terrier was

Page 1275

1 going to do.

2 JUDGE MAY: It may be. It may be. But I

3 would find it helpful to know, before we go to this,

4 what it is proposed that the witness is going to say

5 about the evidence, and I would propose that he

6 completes his evidence and then we consider this

7 question of further identification so that we know what

8 the background is against which any identification is

9 purported to be made.

10 MR. TERRIER: Indeed, I was going to request

11 leave of this Court to have this done because perhaps

12 this has been an unusual procedure to carry out and

13 perhaps the Court might reflect on that proposal.

14 Q. Witness, I would like now to ask you a number

15 of questions regarding the third group of soldiers

16 which you saw near your house; you stated that there

17 were soldiers near the corner of your house. Would you

18 please describe them?

19 A. The description, on the basis of a very brief

20 glimpse of them, would be the following: One of them

21 had a mask with only eyes open, another one was painted

22 with black paint on his face, they were wearing

23 camouflage uniforms, they had automatic machine rifles,

24 and that's all I could see because, as I said before,

25 the other guys, the other two soldiers, would not let

Page 1276

1 us turn around, so I was not allowed to do that.

2 Q. Did you see your father again later?

3 A. Since that very day, the 16th of April, 6.15

4 hours, until today, I never learned about the fate of

5 my father.

6 Q. No one indicated to you, for example, where

7 he was buried?

8 A. Nobody told me that.

9 Q. Witness, I would now request that we return

10 to the time at which you were separated from your

11 father.

12 May we please show the aerial photograph,

13 which I believe is Prosecution Exhibit 98? I do not

14 believe it is necessary that we go back into closed

15 session because the information which I am going to ask

16 him now will not reveal his identity.

17 Witness, would you please look at this aerial

18 photograph? When we met before this hearing, I asked

19 that you indicate for me what path you took with your

20 mother and your sister on this photograph, after your

21 separation from your father, during the course of that

22 day, and you drew out that path. Is that indeed the

23 path which is indicated with a white line on this

24 aerial photograph?

25 A. Yes. This is the track.

Page 1277

1 Q. Would you please then tell us what this path

2 was?

3 A. Could you please repeat the question?

4 Q. The path that you followed with your mother

5 and sister, it is indicated, as you just stated, on

6 this photograph. Can you please explain to us where

7 you went, what type of path you took?

8 A. Yes, I can tell you that. The path we were

9 going along from the house where we resided to this

10 point and from here onward we were accompanied by the

11 two soldiers that were on the road. They could see us

12 as far as this house here.

13 We passed by this house, and then there was

14 some brushes. We had to walk slowly because shooting

15 could be heard here on this site under Roman II. We

16 had to walk the slowest, because there was severe

17 shooting that we could hear and observe from both our

18 left-hand side and our right-hand side.

19 We, I repeat again, were walking very slowly

20 until we arrived at Kermo's house. Here we stayed

21 about 30 minutes or an hour perhaps.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the

23 Prosecutor, please.

24 MR. TERRIER:

25 Q. Witness, when you talked about the gunfire

Page 1278

1 or, rather, the fire which was coming to your direction

2 from the left and from the right, could you please

3 indicate exactly where that was?

4 A. When we were walking along this path here

5 encircled and marked with Roman II, this is the way we

6 were walking along. It is from this side, that is from

7 our left-hand side. As we were moving upward, we

8 noticed shots being fired. Actually, there were shots

9 fired from the lower side as well, from the road

10 Zenica/Vitez. And also from this hill as well but I

11 don't know the name of this feature. I know, however,

12 that an 84 machine gun and a sniper were located here

13 on this hill. I saw this very clearly, because it's

14 not that far.

15 Once I arrived in Upper Ahmici, I could see

16 it, because it's only about 200, 250 metres airline,

17 and I could see very well what was located there.

18 Q. Witness, you indicated that the gunfire was

19 coming from several directions. You indicated, with

20 your pointer, the hill from which fire was coming in

21 your direction. Would you please indicate, in the same

22 way, from which other directions you saw fire coming

23 from?

24 A. From this direction. However, I couldn't see

25 it. I heard fire coming from this direction, because

Page 1279

1 this part up here, encircled part, is a little lower

2 than the lower part where the shots were fired from.

3 However, it's not very far away; therefore, you could

4 hear shots being fired. There's only perhaps a

5 hundred, a hundred and fifty metres distance here, not

6 more than that. So from this direction.

7 Q. Would you please indicate the direction? You

8 indicated this on the aerial photograph. Would you

9 please point that out for us? Could you please give it

10 a name?

11 A. I cannot give you a name. I can only tell

12 you the houses and the owners of the houses in this

13 area. That's what I can tell you.

14 Q. And to who do they belong?

15 A. One of these houses here belonged to Vlatko

16 Kupreskic. The others, I don't know, because let me

17 recall that I wasn't living there for a long time, and

18 I don't know the owners of the other houses who were of

19 Croatian ethnicity. I just know that his house was

20 located here, because it is a big and very solid

21 house.

22 Q. And when you arrived in Upper Ahmici, what

23 happened then?

24 A. When we arrived in Upper Ahmici, we stayed

25 there in a house from about 10.30 p.m. At that time,

Page 1280

1 from other houses, from the summer houses, people would

2 come and gather. So a group of women and children

3 would gather there. So those who survived of the men

4 as well would come and gather here. Then the group

5 headed towards the village of Vhrovine and Zenica.

6 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, subject to that

7 issue with regards to the identification of some of the

8 accused, I have no further questions.

9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

10 We have decided not to grant the request of

11 the Prosecutor. In this particular case, we think that

12 “dock identification” is not appropriate. So, therefore,

13 we may now move on to the cross-examination.

14 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I request that

15 Prosecution Exhibits 97 and 98 be tendered, and, of

16 course, we still have to suspend the issue of document

17 99. Thank you.

18 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Pavkovic, could you be so

19 kind as to let us know who is going to cross-examine

20 this witness?

21 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Honours, I can inform you

22 that the witness will be examined by our colleague

23 Madam Jadranka Slokovic-Glumac, followed by Mr.

24 Radovic, in closing, Defence counsel Braislav Krajina.

25 Just one correction. The first witness is going to be

Page 1281

1 examined by Mr. Radovic.

2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Thank you.

3 Mr. Radovic?

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Radovic:

5 Q. Could you please tell us when exactly did you

6 come to The Hague, just now before this trial?

7 A. Several days ago.

8 MR. RADOVIC: Not much time has elapsed.

9 Could you give us a precise day, please? Did you

10 arrive prior to 17 August? Can you tell us how many

11 days?

12 (No audible answer)

13 I'm sorry, the witness has only nodded, which

14 cannot be taken down. Could you please give us verbal

15 answers?

16 A. I arrived before 17 August.

17 MR. RADOVIC: How many days before 17

18 August?

19 A. Couple of days before that.

20 Q. When you arrived in The Hague, how many days

21 prior to 17 August did you first get in touch with the

22 investigators of the Tribunal?

23 A. When I arrived, I had contact on the first

24 day.

25 Q. On that first day when you had contact with

Page 1282

1 the Tribunal investigators, did you sign anything?

2 A. No, I did not sign anything.

3 Q. Did you have any contact on the following

4 days?

5 A. Not the very next day, but I did have.

6 Q. Did you have any additional contacts before

7 17th of August?

8 A. No.

9 Q. During the first contact, what did the

10 contact consist of? Did you give any statements or did

11 you just discuss weather in The Hague?

12 A. We talked about my statement.

13 Q. Could you tell us what you talked about?

14 A. About the statement which I'd given, whether

15 I had misstated something, whether I had omitted

16 anything.

17 Q. Let me ask you something in that regard. Did

18 the investigator point out anything that you may have

19 misstated?

20 A. When I had given that statement, I did not

21 believe that I had misstated anything.

22 MR. RADOVIC: So in which direction did this

23 conversation go regarding whether you'd misstated

24 anything?

25 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry for the interruption.

Page 1283

1 Could you point out to us, to the court, the

2 relevance. Tell us what the relevance of your

3 questions is. To what extent what you are asking is

4 relevant to this particular case.

5 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Honours, the Prosecutor

6 requested that the witness statement be entered into

7 evidence. We believe that this witness was influenced

8 to identify one of the accused, and since the --

9 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry to interrupt you. If

10 you read this statement, you will see that at the end

11 the witness clearly states that he is unable to

12 identify any of the 20 photographs. So he does not

13 recognise anybody. I don't see why you are putting all

14 these questions, because this is --

15 MR. RADOVIC: I know. Just to show that an

16 attempt was made to influence this witness to make an

17 identification, but if you believe --

18 JUDGE CASSESE: Move on to other questions,

19 please. This is not acceptable. It is clearly

20 inconsistent with what the Prosecutor did with this

21 document, in producing this document, which shows that

22 the Prosecutor did not attempt to influence the

23 witness, and this is the clear evidence. Please move

24 on to other questions.

25 MR. RADOVIC: Very well. I withdraw this

Page 1284

1 question.

2 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I have just a

3 small, brief comment to make. I understand the

4 difficulties that the Defence has in this particular

5 issue. We both come from different systems than the

6 ones used by this court. We both come from very

7 similar systems, in fact. In fact, in our own systems

8 it is completely unusual, and sometimes forbidden, for

9 a witness to meet with the counsel ahead of time,

10 particularly with regards to witnesses for either

11 parties.

12 But in this case, the Defence, I hope, will

13 understand that indeed when the witness comes to The

14 Hague, we go over the witness's testimony, we sometimes

15 submit to this witness photographs, which, of course,

16 about which we will be able to discuss in court. But

17 it should be understood, and I hope that Mr. Radovic

18 understands and does not put into question the morality

19 of the Prosecution. He should understand that we are

20 not trying to influence this witness's testimony. We

21 understand that the witness is testifying under oath,

22 and we are here to look for the complete truth.

23 We simply wish to know what occurred and we

24 wish to cover the facts and this is how we proceed.

25 And, Mr. Radovic, I hope you understand this and do not

Page 1285

1 be surprised if each witness will have already been met

2 with representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor

3 beforehand.

4 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Terrier, for

5 reminding this court that indeed, and as you stated,

6 the legal traditions of the various parties may indeed

7 change the approach one may have. And I do indeed

8 share of view of Mr. Terrier that since you come from a

9 country in which you have a civil law tradition, such

10 as in Croatia, in France, in Germany and the former

11 Yugoslavia, I understand that the approach would be

12 very different, and in that case one might be very

13 surprised about what one sees here.

14 Nonetheless, Mr. Radovic, please understand

15 that as Mr. Terrier has underlined, rightly so, that

16 you are in a different legal framework today, and so

17 you must please try to adapt to this new framework.

18 You are now working in a system which is not a civil

19 law system as we are used to practising in our own

20 respective countries.

21 In this case, the procedures do indeed allow

22 for contact between the Prosecution and witness, and

23 this also goes for the Defence. This is the principle

24 of the equality of arms which comes into play here, so

25 this gives this right to the Prosecutor. So we will

Page 1286

1 indeed have witnesses here, witnesses from the Defence,

2 in which you yourself will have the same rights, the

3 rights to interview the witnesses for the Defence

4 beforehand.

5 What the Prosecutor has done in this

6 particular case, in fact, they wrote this document,

7 this shows that they have acted in good faith and in a

8 very professional manner. Therefore, I think one

9 should take note of that particular attitude, and I

10 also would be appreciative if you would move on to your

11 next question.

12 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, we have become

13 familiar with the rules. Mr. President, again let me

14 repeat. We are familiar with the rules regarding this

15 procedure, and we know that the Prosecution has the

16 right to talk to the witnesses, as we do. And we

17 realise and appreciate that the procedure here is

18 different from the, let's say, Germanic type of

19 procedure to which we are used. However, we believe

20 that not all the statements which the Prosecution has

21 taken of witnesses have been provided to us, or at

22 least not in a timely manner.

23 This particular statement bears the date of

24 17 August. It was only provided to us today, just

25 prior to this witness's testimony. So we had no

Page 1287

1 opportunity to study it, and now we are asked to say

2 whether we agree that it is -- whether we had any

3 objections to this statement.

4 We would just like to make sure that there

5 are no other written statements of their -- or records

6 of their conversations, but we would like to stick to

7 the rules that guide this Tribunal, and if you allow

8 me, I will go on with my questions.

9 Q. Sir, you said that you were a displaced

10 person and that you came to Vitez as a displaced

11 person. Do you know, were there many displaced

12 persons, Bosniaks, in that area?

13 A. I don't know, but they were from different

14 areas.

15 Q. From which areas did they come?

16 A. They came from Jajce. They were from

17 Krajina, from Jajce, from Travnik.

18 Q. Do you know approximately the number of the

19 expelled Bosniaks?

20 A. I do not know the exact number.

21 Q. As a displaced person or refugee, did you

22 receive any assistance in -- such as in clothing, food

23 and other items?

24 A. I don't know what you mean.

25 Q. Do you know what Merhamet means?

Page 1288

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. Did you receive any assistance through

3 Merhamet?

4 A. In a span of four months we received ten

5 kilograms of flour.

6 Q. Did you personally go to collect that

7 assistance?

8 A. No, I did not.

9 Q. This is a closed session Your Honours, or is

10 it open? Very well, then you don't need to tell me who

11 went to collect it. Please don't tell me the name,

12 just "father," "mother," or something like that.

13 A. It was my mother who went there.

14 MR. RADOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours, I have

15 no further questions.

16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Radovic. I

17 think Mrs. Glumac is next.

18 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, is it

19 possible for me to do the examination in one go or if

20 we're going to make a break now?

21 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So we'll resume

22 at twenty-five past eleven.

23 --- Recess taken at 10.56 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

25 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, will you allow

Page 1289

1 me to say a few words because, having looked at the

2 transcript, it seems that Mr. Radovic put into question

3 the way in which the Prosecutor and the Office of the

4 Prosecutor has proceeded with the witness which we are

5 now hearing.

6 I would simply like to state and to remind

7 the Defence in particular that the interview was on the

8 17th of August that we had with this witness and that

9 immediately thereafter, we sent a notice to the

10 Defence, based on Rule 68 of the Rules, indicating that

11 there was exculpatory evidence, and this notice was, of

12 course, signed for and given on the 19th of August to a

13 representative of the Defence, and indeed today we

14 produced that document which we then submitted to the

15 Tribunal, and so we would prefer this also be entered

16 into evidence.

17 So on the 19th of August, the Defence knew

18 that the witness had been shown the photographs. Thank

19 you.

20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. To avoid any loss

21 of time, Mr. Radovic, you may make a few brief remarks,

22 if you wish.

23 MR. RADOVIC: I can only confirm that we have

24 received this from the OTP. We have, however, not

25 received the supplementary minutes or statement.