Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1250

          1                 Friday, 28th August 1998

          2                 (Open session)

          3                 (The accused entered court)

          4                 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

          5  THE REGISTRAR:  Case number IT-95-16-T, the Prosecutor

          6  versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko

          7  Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic and Vladimir

          8  Santic know as Vlado.

          9            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  Good morning.

         10  Before we move on to our next witness, may I discuss a

         11  few housekeeping matters?

         12            First of all, let me tell you that I have

         13  already written and signed and even filed a request to

         14  the President of our Tribunal concerning the visit to

         15  Ahmici.  You will find it in a few hours, because it's

         16  being processed by the Registry.

         17            Informally she is agreeable, but, of course

         18   -- when I got in touch with her she said she was

         19  agreeable, but, of course, she and the Registrar will

         20  have to look at the financial and security

         21  implications.

         22            Now, if money is available and the security

         23  problems are sorted out, we will have to propose

         24  something specific to the Registrar, and so,

         25  therefore -- about practical arrangements.  I wonder if

Page 1251

          1  we could know from the Defence and Prosecution how many

          2  members of the two teams are prepared and willing to go

          3  to Ahmici, and in particular, as far as the Defence is

          4  concerned, whether they would leave from here, The

          5  Hague, with the whole team, or whether they prefer to

          6  go there from Croatia.  So I wonder whether

          7  Mr. Pavkovic could kindly get in touch with Mr. Terrier

          8  later on today or Monday to sort out all these

          9  practical arrangements and make a proposal to the

         10  Registrar, or to the Court about the practical side of

         11  this matter.

         12            I see Mr. Pavkovic would like to say a few

         13  things.

         14            MR. PAVKOVIC:  No, Your Honour.  Really, we

         15  will meet with the Prosecution after we have,

         16  ourselves, coordinated the matter, and we will inform

         17  you duly.

         18            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you, Mr. Pavkovic.

         19            Now, the second point relates to the list of

         20  Defence witnesses filed, by counsel for Vlatko

         21  Kupreskic, a few days ago.  I wonder whether the

         22  Prosecution are prepared to tell us now about their

         23  reaction to that list, whether they intend also to

         24  call also some of the ten witnesses the Defence counsel

         25  for Vlatko Kupreskic proposes to call.  Mr. Terrier?

Page 1252

          1            MR. TERRIER:  Good morning, Your Honour.

          2  Good morning, Your Honours.  On that list of witnesses

          3  which was submitted to us by the Defence for Vlatko

          4  Kupreskic, we do not have any intention to call any of

          5  those witnesses.

          6            JUDGE CASSESE:  Very well.  Thank you.

          7            Now, the third point, I gather that the

          8  Prosecution have requested the postponement of

          9  Mr. Akhavan's cross-examination.  We have to accept

         10  this postponement somewhat reluctantly, because, of

         11  course, it's more efficient and judicially economical

         12  to have the cross-examination after the examination.

         13  But as the Romans used to say, "Ad impossibilia nemo

         14  tenetur," so nobody is duty-bound to something which

         15  that is totally impossible.

         16            However, I would like to take this

         17  opportunity to thank the Defence for kindly accepting

         18  this postponement.  I understand Mr. Akhavan will come

         19  here on Monday.

         20            Now, the final point is about the witnesses

         21  for next week.  You know, so far we, in the Court, we

         22  have received the various witness statements in dribs

         23  and drabs, and I've been trying to have a list of their

         24  statements, as well as the actual text of the

         25  statements.  I wonder whether the Prosecution could be

Page 1253

          1  so kind as to give us a sort of consolidated list of at

          2  least the dates of the various statements made by each

          3  witness, because I am a bit mystified about the -- how

          4  many statements have been made by each witness.  In one

          5  case I counted almost five or six.  I mean, in the case

          6  of Witness 8.  I don't know whether we can mention that

          7  name, number 8 in the last -- is he a protected

          8  witness, number 8?

          9            MR. MOSKOWITZ:  Yes.

         10            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes.  So number 8, a lot of

         11  statements.  So if we could get a list -- at least a

         12  list of their statements with the dates when they were

         13  made.  I have prepared my own list but I am not sure

         14  whether it is correct.

         15            MR. TERRIER:  Yes, Mr. President, we will

         16  make an effort to submit those documents.  Please

         17  understand that not all of these witness statements

         18  were taken in the same manner by the same authorities,

         19  and nor are all related to the same proceedings.  Some

         20  statements, for example, for Witness number 7 on that

         21  list, was recorded on videotape and that was a

         22  transcript that was submitted, of course, to the

         23  Defence.  So sometimes you must understand it is

         24  difficult to submit that kind of list, but we will make

         25  an effort to do so, nonetheless, this afternoon.

Page 1254

          1            JUDGE CASSESE:  All right.  I think it will

          2  be useful to receive that list as soon as possible,

          3  because the weather here at The Hague is conducive to

          4  much work even over the weekend.  So we can take

          5  advantage, at least, of the bad weather.

          6            Final point, and here, of course, I don't

          7  want to interfere with the discretionary power of the

          8  Prosecution to decide upon their own strategy

          9  concerning the order of appearance of witnesses, but I

         10  was wondering whether, having read carefully, I think,

         11  the statements of -- nine, the next witnesses for next

         12  week, I was wondering whether there's a particular

         13  reason why you have, for instance, separated number 7

         14  from number 10.  If I am not wrong, they deal with the

         15  same episode and might prove useful for the Court to

         16  hear these witnesses one after the other, As for

         17  number 8, of course, this is going to be a crucial

         18  witness, and I wonder whether you realistically plan to

         19  call him next week, because judging from the pace of

         20  our proceedings, it is likely that this would be put

         21  off until after the break, the one-week break.

         22            But as I say, it is for you.  We fully

         23  respect your discretionary power, your right to decide

         24  upon the order.  But just to make our proceedings more

         25  efficient, and also to get a better picture, I thought

Page 1255

          1  you might wish to reconsider the order in which you

          2  intend to call those witnesses.

          3            For instance, I take the liberty of humbly

          4  suggesting that, for instance, number 8 might be

          5  brought forward so that we know whether he will be

          6  heard next week or after the break, and then number 7

          7  and number 10 could be put together.  It's for you to

          8  decide.

          9            MR. TERRIER:  Mr. President, yes, indeed, we

         10  will reflect on the issue you've just raised.

         11  Nonetheless, I would like to remind  the Court that

         12  sometimes we might deal with very difficult logistical

         13  matters.  These people are coming from far away, and

         14  sometimes we must follow these wishes they express,

         15  which are legitimate, and we must try to satisfy these

         16  wishes, and which means that at times, indeed, and we

         17  have spoken with this Tribunal about this matter in the

         18  beginning of this trial, that at times we'll be

         19  required to interrupt some of the logical order in

         20  which these witnesses may appear.  We regret this will

         21  be the case, but sometimes we cannot do otherwise.

         22            Today, indeed, I do share your sentiments and

         23  sentiments of the court.  I believe that there is a

         24  legitimate observation made, that the

         25  examination-in-chief of Mr. Akhavan and -- the

Page 1256

          1  cross-examination, rather, be postponed until Monday.

          2  I think, yes, indeed, that is something that shows the

          3  flexibility of the Defence.  It shows also the proper

          4  conduct of the proceedings here before this Tribunal.

          5  We are thankful for that, but we hope that this mix up

          6  in the order of witnesses does not present itself

          7  again.

          8            JUDGE CASSESE:  Very well.  Let us now then

          9  proceed to the testimony of witness number 3.

         10            MR. TERRIER:  Number 3.

         11            JUDGE CASSESE:  Here again, I see  -- I

         12  imagine we will not have the possibility of having

         13  cross-examination.

         14            MR. TERRIER:  It will be ideal, yes, indeed,

         15  Your Honour, it would be ideal to have it at the same

         16  time.

         17                 (The witness entered court).

         18            JUDGE CASSESE:  Good morning Witness E.

         19  Could you please read the solemn declaration?

         20            WITNESS:  Witness E.

         21            THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I shall

         22  speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

         23  truth.

         24            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone to the witness,

         25  please.

Page 1257

          1            JUDGE CASSESE:  Microphone.  There's no

          2  microphone.  There was no translation.  Could you

          3  please repeat your declaration?

          4            THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I shall

          5  speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

          6  truth.

          7            THE INTERPRETER:  There is no sound coming.

          8  I apologise.

          9            JUDGE CASSESE:  There is no sound.

         10            THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I shall

         11  speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

         12  truth.

         13            THE INTERPRETER:  Sorry, still no sound

         14  coming.

         15            JUDGE CASSESE:  May we consider that -- but

         16  on the other hand there must be, afterwards, a

         17  translation, otherwise we could move forward.

         18            Mr. Terrier, were you able to receive

         19  anything in French?  Was there a French

         20  interpretation?

         21            MR. TERRIER:  No.

         22            JUDGE CASSESE:  I see.  Very well.

         23            Shall we try again?

         24            THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I shall

         25  speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

Page 1258

          1  truth.

          2            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  You may be

          3  seated.

          4            THE REGISTRAR:  Prosecution Exhibit 97.

          5            JUDGE CASSESE:  Show it to the witness.

          6            I'm sorry.  Please go ahead.

          7                 Examined by Mr. Terrier:

          8       Q.   Witness, you are a protected witness in this

          9  courtroom.  Therefore, you may express yourself as you

         10  wish in serenity, with no fear whatsoever.  All I ask

         11  is that you do not state any names, and that you not

         12  give any identifying information about yourself or your

         13  family unless we go into closed session, in which case

         14  that may be possible.

         15            MR. RADOVIC:  No translation.

         16            MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:  We can't hear.

         17            JUDGE CASSESE:  You can't hear.  Even on 7?

         18            MR. TERRIER:

         19       Q.   Witness, I was simply stating that you are

         20  here as a protected witness.  You're benefiting from

         21  protective measures, and that your identity will not be

         22  known outside of this courtroom.  Therefore, you may

         23  express yourself with serenity and fully.  I simply

         24  would like to ask that during the course of your

         25  testimony that no names, nor any information which may

Page 1259

          1  identify yourself or your family be made.  We are

          2  asking if we need information of this type, then we

          3  will go into closed session to obtain that type of

          4  information.

          5            Witness, could you please indicate to us what

          6  your -- your age and the age that you had in the

          7  beginning of 1993?

          8       A.   In early 1993, I was 15 years old, and now

          9  I'm 21.

         10            MR. TERRIER:  Mr. President, the interpreters

         11  do not hear the witness.

         12            JUDGE CASSESE:  It is on, yes.

         13            MR. TERRIER:

         14       Q.   Witness, would you please describe the

         15  composition of your family?

         16            Mr. President, I did not receive

         17  interpretation.

         18            JUDGE CASSESE:  Mr. Terrier, would you please

         19  repeat your question, because perhaps now the system is

         20  working and the interpretation into French may be

         21  working.

         22            MR. TERRIER:

         23       Q.   Witness, would you please tell us what the

         24  composition of your family was in early 1993, without

         25  giving any names, of course.

Page 1260

          1       A.   My father, my mother, my sister and myself.

          2       Q.   How old was your sister in 1993?

          3       A.   In 1993 she was 17.

          4       Q.   From what area or city are you originally

          5  from?

          6       A.   From Travnik.

          7       Q.   On what date and for what reason did you

          8  arrive in Ahmici?

          9       A.   Between 20th and 25 November.  We came to

         10  Ahmici because we were expelled from the place where we

         11  lived by the Serbian army.

         12            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone to the

         13  Prosecutor.

         14            MR. TERRIER:  We would like to submit to the

         15  witness an aerial photo.  This will show the

         16  neighbourhood -- this will enable the witness to

         17  indicate in which neighbourhood he was living in Ahmici

         18  in 1992.

         19            JUDGE CASSESE:  The Registrar has rightly

         20  pointed out that we should probably go into closed

         21  session now because of the picture, the photograph

         22  you're going to show.  So we go into closed session.

         23                 (Closed session)

         24  (redacted)

         25  (redacted)

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          1  (redacted)

          2  (redacted)

          3  (redacted)

          4  (redacted)

          5  (redacted)

          6  (redacted)

          7  (redacted)

          8  (redacted)

          9  (redacted)

         10  (redacted)

         11  (redacted)

         12  (redacted)

         13  (redacted)

         14  (redacted)

         15                 (Open session)

         16            JUDGE CASSESE:  Mr. Radovic?

         17            MR. RADOVIC:  The Prosecutor just asked the

         18  witness to identify the -- his house on the basis of

         19  the aerial photograph.  I personally believe that to

         20  make such identification on the basis of a house

         21  already encircled on a photograph does not really

         22  constitute a real identification.  It is simply showing

         23  a location that the witness is advised ahead of time.

         24            MR. TERRIER:  Yes, indeed, this is an

         25  indication made by the witness of where he was living.

Page 1262

          1  I believe it is indisputable that it is the house which

          2  he was living in with his family.  I do not believe

          3  that there is any real question in dispute.

          4            JUDGE CASSESE:  I agree with the Prosecutor.

          5  It is not in dispute.  If you start objecting even to

          6  minor things, such as the photograph and the picture of

          7  the house where he was living, then the trial will end

          8  maybe in two years' time.  This is really a question

          9  which is not in dispute.  If you have any objection on

         10  the merits, then you can put your objection to the

         11  Court.

         12            MR. RADOVIC:  Mr. President, I agree with you

         13  with respect to this witness.  He did live in this

         14  house.  However, I have noticed that on a number of

         15  aerial photographs which were shown to other witnesses

         16  previously where it was very crucial that a witness

         17  recognises or identifies it, they were already

         18  pre-marked.

         19            So in this particular case, I agree with

         20  you.  But in principle, I disagree with the method

         21  where the witness is shown pre-marked photographs.  As

         22  far as this particular photograph is concerned, we

         23  really can go on.

         24            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  But also in

         25  future, as I say, if the Prosecutor prefers to present

Page 1263

          1  pre-marked photographs with a circle around a house,

          2  you are most welcome to object if you find that the

          3  indication of that house is in dispute, if you dispute

          4  the indication of that house.  But as far as the

          5  method, the approach is concerned, I don't think it is

          6  questionable.

          7            Let us leave it for the future.

          8            You may proceed, Mr. Terrier.

          9            MR. TERRIER:  Mr. President, I believe there

         10  are no objections with regards that witness and the

         11  indication made by the witness as to the location of

         12  his house.  I would also like to make an observation

         13  that the circle is fairly large, and within that

         14  circle, there are several houses, and that the witness

         15  indicated or pointed out one of the houses within that

         16  circle marked 1.

         17            I would like to continue with my questions.

         18       Q.   Witness, do you remember the day of the 15th

         19  of April, 1993?

         20       A.   Yes, I do remember it.

         21       Q.   Can you please explain to this Court the days

         22  that preceded the attack on Ahmici?

         23       A.   On the 15th of April, 1993, I was in the

         24  house almost the whole day.  I was watching television,

         25  Busovaca TV, and there was some kind of a parade of the

Page 1264

          1  Croatian army.  I did not pay that much attention to

          2  it, but I recall a detail.  It was a commander, whom I

          3  did not know, and he said, "Tomorrow, we are going to

          4  attack Jajce," even though we all knew that Jajce had

          5  fallen about two or three months earlier, sometime in

          6  October.

          7       Q.   Jajce fell into the hands of the forces in

          8  the western part of Bosnia, above Travnik, and it fell

          9  into which hands?

         10       A.   It fell to the Serbian army.

         11       Q.   Is what you heard on television reports about

         12  the war against the Serbs?

         13       A.   I don't know that.  But we all knew that at

         14  that time, it was very difficult given the numbers of

         15  them at that parade.  It was incomprehensible, almost,

         16  to see all these people going to Jajce.

         17       Q.   Witness, would you please go back to what you

         18  recall about the 16th of April, 1993, in the morning?

         19       A.   Yes.  On 16 April, 1993, at 5.50, we were

         20  awakened by shooting.  We got up.  I was the first to

         21  get up and open the window in the hallway of the

         22  house.  I saw two soldiers in front of our house, that

         23  is, the house where we were staying, who were standing

         24  near the house of Husein Ahmic, and they called him out

         25  and they ordered him to stand against a wall.

Page 1265

          1            I closed the window and returned to my family

          2  and told them that these HVO soldiers had passed over

          3  our house, that we could not go out, that we had to

          4  wait to see what would happen next.

          5            We waited in the bedroom until ten past six.

          6  You could hear the soldiers walking about.  There were

          7  some bars on our windows.  First we heard a kick and

          8  then, with their rifle butts, they smashed the windows,

          9  and I told my family that we should go because they

         10  would throw in a hand grenade.  So we went to the

         11  kitchen, and as I was closing the door, a hand grenade

         12  exploded in the room.

         13            I told them to move to the hallway, and as we

         14  went there, the second hand grenade exploded in the

         15  kitchen.  Then we knew that we had to leave there.  My

         16  mother went out first, followed by my sister, my

         17  father, and then I came out of the house last.

         18            As soon as we came out, there was a fence at

         19  the end of the property, and just on the other side of

         20  the fence, we saw two dead bodies.

         21            There were two soldiers who were on the road

         22  in front of our house, about 10 metres away.  They told

         23  us, "Hands up and bow your heads and run uphill."

         24            We started walking towards them.  My father

         25  was the last.  He was the fourth.  However, two

Page 1266

          1  additional soldiers stood at the corner of the house,

          2  to the right of us, and one of them said, "You, the

          3  tall one.  Come over here."  The three of us, my

          4  mother, my sister, and myself went towards the two

          5  soldiers who were standing on the road.  As we were

          6  passing them, I saw two additional dead bodies there.

          7            I turned around and my sister also turned

          8  around to see where my father was going, and the

          9  soldier who was on the road said, "Don't turn around.

         10  Keep going.  Keep moving."  I sort of showed with my

         11  head to my sister that she should run.  I also turned

         12  around once, and I saw my father walking with his hands

         13  up.  He was walking towards them.  The same soldier who

         14  was on the road, who had already told us not to turn

         15  around, said again, "Don't turn around."  I saw that my

         16  mother couldn't walk, she was too excited, and I helped

         17  her.

         18            We moved away maybe 10, 15 metres away from

         19  the soldiers, and we heard shots.  We did not dare turn

         20  around.  I did not know whether they had killed my

         21  father or whether they had killed the landlord with

         22  whom we were staying.

         23       Q.   Witness, I must interrupt you one moment and

         24  ask for a number of clarifications at this time about

         25  what you stated.

Page 1267

          1            With regards to those two soldiers that you

          2  saw from your window, the window of your house and who

          3  were stopping the person who you named as Husein Ahmic,

          4  can you please describe how those two soldiers were

          5  dressed?

          6       A.   Yes, I do remember.  Camouflage uniforms,

          7  multi-coloured, automatic rifles.  They had anti-tank

          8  rocket launchers which they carried over their

          9  shoulders, slung.  So that is the description of the

         10  ones who were in front of his house.  That is what I

         11  saw.

         12       Q.   Were they wearing any masks or were their

         13  faces painted?

         14       A.   They had their backs turned to me, and this

         15  is why I saw that they had this anti-tank rocket

         16  launchers, and I could not see them because I just gave

         17  them sort of a cursory look.

         18       Q.   You mentioned that these two soldiers stopped

         19  your neighbour, Husein Ahmic.  Would you please explain

         20  what happened later?

         21       A.   They were in front of the house, and they

         22  called him out, said, "The old one, come out."  And his

         23  wife said, "Please don't.  Don't.  He's an elderly

         24  man."  However, they did not respond to that.

         25            I saw that he walked past them along the

Page 1268

          1  wall.  It was some kind of a shed or garage, and he was

          2  against that wall.  I could not see whether they killed

          3  him or not because I could not see it from the window,

          4  but I recall them putting him against a wall.  I don't

          5  know what happened after that.

          6       Q.   Did you see him again after that time,

          7  Mr. Husein Ahmic?

          8       A.   No, we never saw him again.

          9       Q.   Do you remember how Mr. Husein Ahmic was

         10  dressed?

         11       A.   He had on a pair of trousers and shoes, and

         12  now I cannot recall -- there was a shirt.  I don't know

         13  whether he had a jacket on or whether he carried it

         14  over his arm.  That, I do not recall.

         15       Q.   Did he have a weapon?

         16       A.   No.  The man was somewhere between 55 and 60

         17  years of age.  He was an elderly man.

         18       Q.   Witness, let us now talk about the two

         19  soldiers you saw on the road at the time you left your

         20  house with your family.  You indicated that two

         21  soldiers stopped you and they asked you to raise your

         22  hands.  Do you remember how these two soldiers were

         23  dressed?

         24       A.   I do remember.  The two soldiers who stopped

         25  us on the road, one of them was wearing a mask.  You

Page 1269

          1  could only see his eyes and mouth.  The other one had

          2  his face painted in black.  They were wearing

          3  camouflage uniforms and they had automatic rifles on

          4  the left -- maybe I'm wrong.  But in any event, they

          5  did have insignia of the military police which are

          6  usually placed on the left or right arm, I don't know.

          7  But at any rate, they had the military police insignia.

          8       Q.   Do you recall the faces of these soldiers, or

          9  at least the soldier who was not wearing any type of

         10  mask?

         11       A.   The one who did not have a mask, because his

         12  face was really painted fully, so I could not recognise

         13  him, but I described him as somebody who was lean and

         14  his height was somewhere between 1.80 to 1.85 metres,

         15  he had somewhat receding hair and he parted it to the

         16  side and that's all I remember.  I have no further

         17  description of him.

         18       Q.   At that time, did you feel that you knew this

         19  person, that soldier?

         20       A.   Could you please repeat the question?

         21       Q.   The soldier you just described, did you have

         22  the feeling that you knew him, that you recognised

         23  him?  Was his face familiar to you?

         24       A.   I could not tell you because his face was

         25  really painted.  It's more his height and his being

Page 1270

          1  very lanky and his hair, but the face itself I could

          2  not recognise because it was all painted in black.

          3       Q.   So some of his physical appearances were

          4  familiar to you.  What did that tell you?

          5       A.   Perhaps I had seen this person once or twice,

          6  but there were a lot of persons who looked alike, so I

          7  don't know.

          8       Q.   So you had the feeling that you had already

          9  seen that person before.  Can you please tell this

         10  Court where you felt you had seen that person before?

         11  In what circumstances?

         12       A.   Well, this person that I have just described,

         13  I went to the Sutre shop cellar twice, three times, and

         14  there I met a similar person.  Whether this person was

         15  working there in that cellar or not, I really cannot

         16  tell, because I would not go there very frequently.  I

         17  would also go in there for just a short time to buy

         18  cigarettes, to buy some provisions like oil or sugar,

         19  for a very short time anyway.

         20       Q.   Let us now talk about the store which is

         21  located -- the store called Sutre.  Can you please

         22  describe it for us?  What did the inside of that store

         23  look like?  How did it look at that time?

         24       A.   Yes, I can.  I cannot tell you specifically

         25  the size, the dimensions, but it was about ten times

Page 1271

          1  ten or twelve metres, it looked like it had two, two

          2  and a half metre high walls, it had a storeroom, it had

          3  a ceiling on top.  Inside, there were pallets with

          4  provisions like flour, and I presume there was cooking

          5  oil, sugar there.  Then there was a counter, and behind

          6  the counter, there were shelves on which you could see

          7  bottles of alcohol or cooking oil or provisions.  This

          8  is it.

          9       Q.   Do you know who was the owner of that shop?

         10       A.   The owner was Vlatko Kupreskic.

         11       Q.   The person who you're referring to, when you

         12  saw him in that store, what was he doing?  Was that

         13  person there as a client or for something else?

         14            JUDGE CASSESE:  Mrs. Glumac?

         15            MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:  Mr. President, I have

         16  an objection to raise.  The witness had already stated

         17  that he did not know whether this person was working

         18  there or not.  He said that he saw in the shop a

         19  similar-looking person, but he did not know whether

         20  this person was working there or not, and I really do

         21  not see why he is repeating this question to which

         22  actually the witness already answered.

         23            JUDGE CASSESE:  But I think, judging from the

         24  transcript, I think the question put by the Prosecutor

         25  was whether the witness knew who was the owner of that

Page 1272

          1  shop, and then he said the person you are referring to,

          2  when you saw him in that store, what was he doing?

          3  He's speaking of the owner of the shop.  So probably --

          4  yes.  Thank you.

          5            You may go on, Mr. Terrier.  There was

          6  probably a problem of translation.

          7            MR. TERRIER:  Mr. President, I would like to

          8  go on to another question.

          9       Q.   Witness, do you remember, after your arrival

         10  in The Hague, whether a number of photographs were

         11  shown to you?

         12       A.   Yes, I do remember it.

         13       Q.   Do you remember a photo album representing

         14  various persons of the male sex all around the same

         15  age, and in all, there were some 24 photographs?

         16       A.   Yes.

         17       Q.   And you recognised no one in this album?

         18       A.   No, I recognised no one on these photographs.

         19            MR. TERRIER:  Mr. President, to completely

         20  keep this Court informed, we have a record of the

         21  statements made by this witness, information which he

         22  will repeat here during his testimony.  We have the

         23  album of these 24 photographs, and among these 24

         24  photographs, there are two of the accused.  The witness

         25  recognised none of the persons in this photograph

Page 1273

          1  album.  We would like to make this clear immediately

          2  and inform the Defence under Rule 68.

          3            I would also like to attach to the case file

          4  before this Court, unless there is an objection from

          5  the Defence -- I don't believe there would be an

          6  objection -- the written statement signed by the

          7  witness during this operation which took place on the

          8  17th of August, and attached to this statement, we have

          9  a photocopy -- you may also have the original, if you

         10  wish -- but there is the series of photographs which we

         11  showed so that this Tribunal will have a very clear

         12  idea of how this operation was carried out.

         13            I would then ask the usher ...

         14            MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:  Your Honours, we were

         15  not able to see what the Prosecutor would like to

         16  submit as evidence.  We were only provided with a very

         17  short notice consisting of one sentence; therefore, we

         18  really do not know what is included in this statement

         19  and, hence, do not consider this to be admissible as

         20  evidence.

         21            THE REGISTRAR:  Prosecution Exhibit 99.

         22            JUDGE CASSESE:  Why don't you first take a

         23  look?

         24            Let us leave then this question of

         25  admissibility in abeyance, and then after you have had

Page 1274

          1  the opportunity to take a look at this statement, you

          2  will let us know whether or not you still object.

          3  Judging from what Mr. Terrier said a few seconds ago, I

          4  think it would be quite admissible, but let us put it

          5  off until a bit later.

          6            All right.  Mr. Terrier, you may go on.

          7            MR. TERRIER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  With

          8  the authorisation of this Tribunal, I would like to

          9  request the witness to do the following:  We know from

         10  experience that it is at times difficult to recognise

         11  someone on a photograph, but that when one is in the

         12  physical presence of that person, the conditions may be

         13  different and one's memory may be better at that time.

         14  I know that the witness was 15 years of age at that

         15  time.  I also know very well that the witness has lived

         16  for a maximum of five months in Ahmici and that five

         17  years has gone by.

         18            Nonetheless, I feel that it is necessary to

         19  ask this witness to determine whether or not, in this

         20  courtroom, he is able to recognise --

         21            JUDGE MAY:  No.  If there is an application

         22  of this sort, it must be made to the Court, and for

         23  myself, I would wish to consider it very carefully in

         24  the circumstances of this case.

         25            JUDGE CASSESE:  That is what Mr. Terrier was

Page 1275

          1  going to do.

          2            JUDGE MAY:  It may be.  It may be.  But I

          3  would find it helpful to know, before we go to this,

          4  what it is proposed that the witness is going to say

          5  about the evidence, and I would propose that he

          6  completes his evidence and then we consider this

          7  question of further identification so that we know what

          8  the background is against which any identification is

          9  purported to be made.

         10            MR. TERRIER:  Indeed, I was going to request

         11  leave of this Court to have this done because perhaps

         12  this has been an unusual procedure to carry out and

         13  perhaps the Court might reflect on that proposal.

         14       Q.   Witness, I would like now to ask you a number

         15  of questions regarding the third group of soldiers

         16  which you saw near your house; you stated that there

         17  were soldiers near the corner of your house.  Would you

         18  please describe them?

         19       A.   The description, on the basis of a very brief

         20  glimpse of them, would be the following:  One of them

         21  had a mask with only eyes open, another one was painted

         22  with black paint on his face, they were wearing

         23  camouflage uniforms, they had automatic machine rifles,

         24  and that's all I could see because, as I said before,

         25  the other guys, the other two soldiers, would not let

Page 1276

          1  us turn around, so I was not allowed to do that.

          2       Q.   Did you see your father again later?

          3       A.   Since that very day, the 16th of April, 6.15

          4  hours, until today, I never learned about the fate of

          5  my father.

          6       Q.   No one indicated to you, for example, where

          7  he was buried?

          8       A.   Nobody told me that.

          9       Q.   Witness, I would now request that we return

         10  to the time at which you were separated from your

         11  father.

         12            May we please show the aerial photograph,

         13  which I believe is Prosecution Exhibit 98?  I do not

         14  believe it is necessary that we go back into closed

         15  session because the information which I am going to ask

         16  him now will not reveal his identity.

         17            Witness, would you please look at this aerial

         18  photograph?  When we met before this hearing, I asked

         19  that you indicate for me what path you took with your

         20  mother and your sister on this photograph, after your

         21  separation from your father, during the course of that

         22  day, and you drew out that path.  Is that indeed the

         23  path which is indicated with a white line on this

         24  aerial photograph?

         25       A.   Yes.  This is the track.

Page 1277

          1       Q.   Would you please then tell us what this path

          2  was?

          3       A.   Could you please repeat the question?

          4       Q.   The path that you followed with your mother

          5  and sister, it is indicated, as you just stated, on

          6  this photograph.  Can you please explain to us where

          7  you went, what type of path you took?

          8       A.   Yes, I can tell you that.  The path we were

          9  going along from the house where we resided to this

         10  point and from here onward we were accompanied by the

         11  two soldiers that were on the road.  They could see us

         12  as far as this house here.

         13            We passed by this house, and then there was

         14  some brushes.  We had to walk slowly because shooting

         15  could be heard here on this site under Roman II.  We

         16  had to walk the slowest, because there was severe

         17  shooting that we could hear and observe from both our

         18  left-hand side and our right-hand side.

         19            We, I repeat again, were walking very slowly

         20  until we arrived at Kermo's house.  Here we stayed

         21  about 30 minutes or an hour perhaps.

         22            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone to the

         23  Prosecutor, please.

         24            MR. TERRIER:

         25       Q.   Witness, when you talked about the gunfire

Page 1278

          1  or, rather, the fire which was coming to your direction

          2  from the left and from the right, could you please

          3  indicate exactly where that was?

          4       A.   When we were walking along this path here

          5  encircled and marked with Roman II, this is the way we

          6  were walking along.  It is from this side, that is from

          7  our left-hand side.  As we were moving upward, we

          8  noticed shots being fired.  Actually, there were shots

          9  fired from the lower side as well, from the road

         10  Zenica/Vitez.  And also from this hill as well but I

         11  don't know the name of this feature.  I know, however,

         12  that an 84 machine gun and a sniper were located here

         13  on this hill.  I saw this very clearly, because it's

         14  not that far.

         15            Once I arrived in Upper Ahmici, I could see

         16  it, because it's only about 200, 250 metres airline,

         17  and I could see very well what was located there.

         18       Q.   Witness, you indicated that the gunfire was

         19  coming from several directions.  You indicated, with

         20  your pointer, the hill from which fire was coming in

         21  your direction.  Would you please indicate, in the same

         22  way, from which other directions you saw fire coming

         23  from?

         24       A.   From this direction.  However, I couldn't see

         25  it.  I heard fire coming from this direction, because

Page 1279

          1  this part up here, encircled part, is a little lower

          2  than the lower part where the shots were fired from.

          3  However, it's not very far away; therefore, you could

          4  hear shots being fired.  There's only perhaps a

          5  hundred, a hundred and fifty metres distance here, not

          6  more than that.  So from this direction.

          7       Q.   Would you please indicate the direction?  You

          8  indicated this on the aerial photograph.  Would you

          9  please point that out for us?  Could you please give it

         10  a name?

         11       A.   I cannot give you a name.  I can only tell

         12  you the houses and the owners of the houses in this

         13  area.  That's what I can tell you.

         14       Q.   And to who do they belong?

         15       A.   One of these houses here belonged to Vlatko

         16  Kupreskic.  The others, I don't know, because let me

         17  recall that I wasn't living there for a long time, and

         18  I don't know the owners of the other houses who were of

         19  Croatian ethnicity.  I just know that his house was

         20  located here, because it is a big and very solid

         21  house.

         22       Q.   And when you arrived in Upper Ahmici, what

         23  happened then?

         24       A.   When we arrived in Upper Ahmici, we stayed

         25  there in a house from about 10.30 p.m.  At that time,

Page 1280

          1  from other houses, from the summer houses, people would

          2  come and gather.  So a group of women and children

          3  would gather there.  So those who survived of the men

          4  as well would come and gather here.  Then the group

          5  headed towards the village of Vhrovine and Zenica.

          6            MR. TERRIER:  Mr. President, subject to that

          7  issue with regards to the identification of some of the

          8  accused, I have no further questions.

          9            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.

         10            We have decided not to grant the request of

         11  the Prosecutor.  In this particular case, we think that

         12  “dock identification” is not appropriate.  So, therefore,

         13  we may now move on to the cross-examination.

         14            MR. TERRIER:  Mr. President, I request that

         15  Prosecution Exhibits 97 and 98 be tendered, and, of

         16  course, we still have to suspend the issue of document

         17  99.  Thank you.

         18            JUDGE CASSESE:  Mr. Pavkovic, could you be so

         19  kind as to let us know who is going to cross-examine

         20  this witness?

         21            MR. PAVKOVIC:  Your Honours, I can inform you

         22  that the witness will be examined by our colleague

         23  Madam Jadranka Slokovic-Glumac, followed by Mr.

         24  Radovic, in closing, Defence counsel Braislav Krajina.

         25  Just one correction.  The first witness is going to be

Page 1281

          1  examined by Mr. Radovic.

          2            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  Thank you.

          3  Mr. Radovic?

          4                 Cross-examined by Mr. Radovic:

          5       Q.   Could you please tell us when exactly did you

          6  come to The Hague, just now before this trial?

          7       A.   Several days ago.

          8            MR. RADOVIC:  Not much time has elapsed.

          9  Could you give us a precise day, please?  Did you

         10  arrive prior to 17 August?  Can you tell us how many

         11  days?

         12                 (No audible answer)

         13            I'm sorry, the witness has only nodded, which

         14  cannot be taken down.  Could you please give us verbal

         15  answers?

         16       A.   I arrived before 17 August.

         17            MR. RADOVIC:  How many days before 17

         18  August?

         19       A.   Couple of days before that.

         20       Q.   When you arrived in The Hague, how many days

         21  prior to 17 August did you first get in touch with the

         22  investigators of the Tribunal?

         23       A.   When I arrived, I had contact on the first

         24  day.

         25       Q.   On that first day when you had contact with

Page 1282

          1  the Tribunal investigators, did you sign anything?

          2       A.   No, I did not sign anything.

          3       Q.   Did you have any contact on the following

          4  days?

          5       A.   Not the very next day, but I did have.

          6       Q.   Did you have any additional contacts before

          7  17th of August?

          8       A.   No.

          9       Q.   During the first contact, what did the

         10  contact consist of?  Did you give any statements or did

         11  you just discuss weather in The Hague?

         12       A.   We talked about my statement.

         13       Q.   Could you tell us what you talked about?

         14       A.   About the statement which I'd given, whether

         15  I had misstated something, whether I had omitted

         16  anything.

         17       Q.   Let me ask you something in that regard.  Did

         18  the investigator point out anything that you may have

         19  misstated?

         20       A.   When I had given that statement, I did not

         21  believe that I had misstated anything.

         22            MR. RADOVIC:  So in which direction did this

         23  conversation go regarding whether you'd misstated

         24  anything?

         25            JUDGE CASSESE:  Sorry for the interruption.

Page 1283

          1  Could you point out to us, to the court, the

          2  relevance.  Tell us what the relevance of your

          3  questions is.  To what extent what you are asking is

          4  relevant to this particular case.

          5            MR. PAVKOVIC:  Your Honours, the Prosecutor

          6  requested that the witness statement be entered into

          7  evidence.  We believe that this witness was influenced

          8  to identify one of the accused, and since the --

          9            JUDGE CASSESE:  Sorry to interrupt you.  If

         10  you read this statement, you will see that at the end

         11  the witness clearly states that he is unable to

         12  identify any of the 20 photographs.  So he does not

         13  recognise anybody.  I don't see why you are putting all

         14  these questions, because this is --

         15            MR. RADOVIC:  I know.  Just to show that an

         16  attempt was made to influence this witness to make an

         17  identification, but if you believe --

         18            JUDGE CASSESE:  Move on to other questions,

         19  please.  This is not acceptable.  It is clearly

         20  inconsistent with what the Prosecutor did with this

         21  document, in producing this document, which shows that

         22  the Prosecutor did not attempt to influence the

         23  witness, and this is the clear evidence.  Please move

         24  on to other questions.

         25            MR. RADOVIC:  Very well.  I withdraw this

Page 1284

          1  question.

          2            MR. TERRIER:  Mr. President, I have just a

          3  small, brief comment to make.  I understand the

          4  difficulties that the Defence has in this particular

          5  issue.  We both come from different systems than the

          6  ones used by this court.  We both come from very

          7  similar systems, in fact.  In fact, in our own systems

          8  it is completely unusual, and sometimes forbidden, for

          9  a witness to meet with the counsel ahead of time,

         10  particularly with regards to witnesses for either

         11  parties.

         12            But in this case, the Defence, I hope, will

         13  understand that indeed when the witness comes to The

         14  Hague, we go over the witness's testimony, we sometimes

         15  submit to this witness photographs, which, of course,

         16  about which we will be able to discuss in court.  But

         17  it should be understood, and I hope that Mr. Radovic

         18  understands and does not put into question the morality

         19  of the Prosecution.  He should understand that we are

         20  not trying to influence this witness's testimony.  We

         21  understand that the witness is testifying under oath,

         22  and we are here to look for the complete truth.

         23            We simply wish to know what occurred and we

         24  wish to cover the facts and this is how we proceed.

         25  And, Mr. Radovic, I hope you understand this and do not

Page 1285

          1  be surprised if each witness will have already been met

          2  with representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor

          3  beforehand.

          4            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you, Mr. Terrier, for

          5  reminding this court that indeed, and as you stated,

          6  the legal traditions of the various parties may indeed

          7  change the approach one may have.  And I do indeed

          8  share of view of Mr. Terrier that since you come from a

          9  country in which you have a civil law tradition, such

         10  as in Croatia, in France, in Germany and the former

         11  Yugoslavia, I understand that the approach would be

         12  very different, and in that case one might be very

         13  surprised about what one sees here.

         14            Nonetheless, Mr. Radovic, please understand

         15  that as Mr. Terrier has underlined, rightly so, that

         16  you are in a different legal framework today, and so

         17  you must please try to adapt to this new framework.

         18  You are now working in a system which is not a civil

         19  law system as we are used to practising in our own

         20  respective countries.

         21            In this case, the procedures do indeed allow

         22  for contact between the Prosecution and witness, and

         23  this also goes for the Defence.  This is the principle

         24  of the equality of arms which comes into play here, so

         25  this gives this right to the Prosecutor.  So we will

Page 1286

          1  indeed have witnesses here, witnesses from the Defence,

          2  in which you yourself will have the same rights, the

          3  rights to interview the witnesses for the Defence

          4  beforehand.

          5            What the Prosecutor has done in this

          6  particular case, in fact, they wrote this document,

          7  this shows that they have acted in good faith and in a

          8  very professional manner.  Therefore, I think one

          9  should take note of that particular attitude, and I

         10  also would be appreciative if you would move on to your

         11  next question.

         12            MR. RADOVIC:  Mr. President, we have become

         13  familiar with the rules.  Mr. President, again let me

         14  repeat.  We are familiar with the rules regarding this

         15  procedure, and we know that the Prosecution has the

         16  right to talk to the witnesses, as we do.  And we

         17  realise and appreciate that the procedure here is

         18  different from the, let's say, Germanic type of

         19  procedure to which we are used.  However, we believe

         20  that not all the statements which the Prosecution has

         21  taken of witnesses have been provided to us, or at

         22  least not in a timely manner.

         23            This particular statement bears the date of

         24  17 August.  It was only provided to us today, just

         25  prior to this witness's testimony.  So we had no

Page 1287

          1  opportunity to study it, and now we are asked to say

          2  whether we agree that it is -- whether we had any

          3  objections to this statement.

          4            We would just like to make sure that there

          5  are no other written statements of their -- or records

          6  of their conversations, but we would like to stick to

          7  the rules that guide this Tribunal, and if you allow

          8  me, I will go on with my questions.

          9       Q.   Sir, you said that you were a displaced

         10  person and that you came to Vitez as a displaced

         11  person.  Do you know, were there many displaced

         12  persons, Bosniaks, in that area?

         13       A.   I don't know, but they were from different

         14  areas.

         15       Q.   From which areas did they come?

         16       A.   They came from Jajce.  They were from

         17  Krajina, from Jajce, from Travnik.

         18       Q.   Do you know approximately the number of the

         19  expelled Bosniaks?

         20       A.   I do not know the exact number.

         21       Q.   As a displaced person or refugee, did you

         22  receive any assistance in -- such as in clothing, food

         23  and other items?

         24       A.   I don't know what you mean.

         25       Q.   Do you know what Merhamet means?

Page 1288

          1       A.   Yes, I do.

          2       Q.   Did you receive any assistance through

          3  Merhamet?

          4       A.   In a span of four months we received ten

          5  kilograms of flour.

          6       Q.   Did you personally go to collect that

          7  assistance?

          8       A.   No, I did not.

          9       Q.   This is a closed session Your Honours, or is

         10  it open?  Very well, then you don't need to tell me who

         11  went to collect it.  Please don't tell me the name,

         12  just "father," "mother," or something like that.

         13       A.   It was my mother who went there.

         14            MR. RADOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours, I have

         15  no further questions.

         16            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you, Mr. Radovic.  I

         17  think Mrs. Glumac is next.

         18            MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:  Mr. President, is it

         19  possible for me to do the examination in one go or if

         20  we're going to make a break now?

         21            JUDGE CASSESE:  All right.  So we'll resume

         22  at twenty-five past eleven.

         23                 --- Recess taken at 10.56 a.m.

         24                 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

         25            MR. TERRIER:  Mr. President, will you allow

Page 1289

          1  me to say a few words because, having looked at the

          2  transcript, it seems that Mr. Radovic put into question

          3  the way in which the Prosecutor and the Office of the

          4  Prosecutor has proceeded with the witness which we are

          5  now hearing.

          6            I would simply like to state and to remind

          7  the Defence in particular that the interview was on the

          8  17th of August that we had with this witness and that

          9  immediately thereafter, we sent a notice to the

         10  Defence, based on Rule 68 of the Rules, indicating that

         11  there was exculpatory evidence, and this notice was, of

         12  course, signed for and given on the 19th of August to a

         13  representative of the Defence, and indeed today we

         14  produced that document which we then submitted to the

         15  Tribunal, and so we would prefer this also be entered

         16  into evidence.

         17            So on the 19th of August, the Defence knew

         18  that the witness had been shown the photographs.  Thank

         19  you.

         20            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  To avoid any loss

         21  of time, Mr. Radovic, you may make a few brief remarks,

         22  if you wish.

         23            MR. RADOVIC:  I can only confirm that we have

         24  received this from the OTP.  We have, however, not

         25  received the supplementary minutes or statement.

Page 1290

          1            JUDGE CASSESE:  All right.  Probably, at the

          2  end of this hearing, you will be able to state whether

          3  or not you are objecting to the admission of this

          4  document into evidence.

          5            I would like now to ask Mrs. Glumac to start

          6  cross-examining the witness.  However, we have no

          7  witness.

          8                 (The witness entered)

          9            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes?

         10            MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:  Thank you.  I would

         11  request Your Honour to go into closed session because

         12  we will try to identify the location, the site, and the

         13  houses in this area.  Thank you.

         14            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  Yes.  We are now

         15  in closed session.

         16                 (Closed session)

         17  (redacted)

         18  (redacted)

         19  (redacted)

         20  (redacted)

         21  (redacted)

         22  (redacted)

         23  (redacted)

         24  (redacted)

         25  (redacted)

Page 1291

          1  .

          2  .

          3  .

          4  .

          5  .

          6  .

          7  .

          8  .

          9  .

         10  .

         11  Pages 1291 to 1303 redacted - in closed session

         12  .

         13  .

         14                 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at

         15                 11.56 a.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

         16                 the 31st day of August, 1998, at

         17                 9.30 a.m.