1 Wednesday, 2nd September 1998
2 (The accused entered court)
3 (The witness entered court)
4 (Open session)
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-16-T, the
7 Prosecutor of the Tribunal versus Zoran Kupreskic,
8 Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic,
9 Dragan Papic and Vladimir Santic, also known
10 as "Vlado."
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Before we call
12 the witness, may I simply draw your attention to the
13 response from the Registrar to our request concerning
14 the possible provision of transcripts in Croatian to
15 the Defence. I'm afraid, as you may have seen, the
16 response is negative for reasons which are well set out
17 in the statement by the Registrar.
18 However, as we also had already pointed out
19 in our request to the Registrar, I think the Defence
20 counsel, and this is, again, stressed by the Registrar,
21 Defence counsel are welcome to consult the audio tapes
22 where you can hear the original of what was said in
23 Croatian in court, so just to check what was said, if
24 you have a doubt in your mind or if you don't want to
25 confine yourselves to the English transcript.
1 We also received a response regarding the
2 medical examination of one of the accused. I imagine
3 the relevant Defence counsel, Mr. Krajina, has also
4 received that document.
5 We may now move on to our closed session.
6 Mr. Moskowitz, do you think it is necessary
7 to go into closed session?
8 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I think, Mr. President, it
9 will be necessary only during a certain part of the
10 video where he will identify his house and some
11 surrounding areas around his house, but I think after
12 that, we don't need to be in closed session. We have a
13 couple of preliminary questions that I would like to
14 ask that will not need to be in closed session.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Right. So we are now in open
16 session, and you'll let us know when you request that
17 we should go into closed session.
18 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
20 WITNESS: WITNESS G
21 Examined by Mr. Moskowitz:
22 Q. Yesterday, you talked about seeing soldiers
23 with patches, and I would, at the start of this
24 session, show you some exhibits to see if you can
25 identify any of those patches.
1 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I would ask the usher first
2 to show the witness previously admitted Exhibits 103
3 and 104.
4 Q. Do you recognise that Exhibit 103?
5 A. Yes. I know this and I saw it.
6 Q. Did you see that on some of the soldiers you
7 saw on the 16th of April and on the days following
8 while you were in Ahmici?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. MOSKOWITZ: The next exhibit, 104,
11 please. Thank you.
12 Q. Would you look at Exhibit 104 and tell us if
13 that looks familiar to you.
14 A. Yes. I saw this insignia on certain soldiers
15 as well.
16 Q. And that would be during the period you
17 described yesterday, April 16th, 1993 and on the days
18 following?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Could we also show the
21 witness previously admitted Exhibit 45?
22 Q. Exhibit 45, now having been placed on the
23 ELMO, is that familiar to you?
24 A. This is similar to the insignia I saw, but
25 I'm not certain whether this was written, "Military
1 Police," and I'm not sure about this checkerboard
2 symbol. I recall seeing the Jokers, but I don't know
3 in which shape or form.
4 Q. Having recalled seeing a patch similar, but
5 not exactly like that, again, are we talking about the
6 time period of April 16, 1993 and the days following
7 while you were in Ahmici?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I have one more exhibit,
10 which is in a new one, that I would like to tender at
11 this point.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 118.
13 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Exhibit 118?
14 THE REGISTRAR: That is correct.
15 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
16 Q. Exhibit 118 has now been placed on the ELMO
17 next to you. Could you look at that and identify that,
18 if you can, please?
19 A. Yes. This is also an insignia I saw certain
20 soldiers wear.
21 Q. That, again, would be during the time period
22 we already mentioned?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you for that. You also testified
25 yesterday about the Bungalow.
1 MR. MOSKOWITZ: At this time, I would ask the
2 usher, again, I'm sorry, to display this exhibit to the
3 witness.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 119.
5 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
6 Q. Can you identify Exhibit 119, having now been
7 placed on the ELMO?
8 A. This is the Bungalow.
9 Q. Is this the same Bungalow you mentioned
10 yesterday in your testimony?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, behind you is a blow-up of the village of
13 Ahmici. Could you turn around and look at that for us,
14 please? Does that look familiar to you?
15 A. Yes. This is a map of Ahmici.
16 Q. Do you see in the centre of that map a large
17 white area?
18 A. You mean this?
19 Q. Yes. Now, I want you to think back to before
20 the attack in 1993. Was there a large white area like
21 that in Ahmici in the days and years and months before
22 April 1993?
23 A. No. It did not exist. This was some kind of
24 a mound and there was a depression there, and then
25 later on, it was all levelled.
1 Q. When you say "later on it was all levelled,"
2 do you mean after April 16, 1993, at some point it was
3 all levelled?
4 A. Yes. After April of 1993, it was levelled and
5 turned into a parking lot.
6 Q. Could you describe what kind of road or path
7 went through that area before April 1993 and the
8 terrain that was there before April 1993? You can use
9 your pointer to help you illustrate.
10 A. Earlier, there was a road there, too, which
11 was used, but if we walked on foot, we would use a
12 shortcut, because that path was much closer, rather
13 than go all the way around here. So there was a path
14 of sorts. And on this kind of mound that used to be
15 there, we used to play there because it was good for
16 playing.
17 Q. Now, also I think yesterday you indicated
18 that you may have seen someone who resembled Dario
19 Kordic. Where was that person, if you can recall, that
20 you saw, using, again, your pointer to demonstrate?
21 A. There was a house there, and I noticed that
22 the jeep was coming from this direction. I saw the
23 driver and there was a man sitting next to him. The
24 jeep went there, and then it turned around and came
25 back. I did not know who it was. I could not guess.
1 But after awhile, I saw posters, pictures of Dario
2 Kordic which were posted there, and then I thought that
3 maybe Dario Kordic was in this jeep.
4 Q. Now, before coming into court today, have you
5 had an opportunity to view a videotape, actually, two
6 separate videotapes, but let's focus on the first one.
7 Did you have an opportunity to view a videotape that
8 showed various scenes in Ahmici?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Are you able to, at this time, recollecting
11 that videotape as best you can, demonstrate for the
12 Court the route that you feel the photographer took as
13 he or she videotaped Ahmici?
14 A. It went along the main road and past
15 somewhere down here. I don't know how far down it
16 went. I believe it may have turned around here and
17 then slowly, and I noted it was slowly, it started
18 coming back, very slowly.
19 Q. Did the photographer continue to travel down
20 that main road, if you recall?
21 A. Yes. I think that it went all the way up
22 here, and I don't know whether, on the second
23 videotape, they turned here or whether that was still
24 part of the first video.
25 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I'm going to ask, with the
1 permission of the Court, for the first videotape to be
2 played and, from time to time, ask that it be stopped
3 so that the witness will have time to show where he
4 feels the photographer was and the direction or angle
5 of the shots so that we can get our bearings.
6 It may be that this is an appropriate time,
7 at least for the first part of this videotape, to go
8 into closed session.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. We'll go into
10 closed session.
11 (Closed session)
12 (Videotape played)
13 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
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12 (Open session)
13 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you.
14 Q. Can you show us, by using your pointer and
15 pointing to the large blow-up, what you think the point
16 of you is of this particular video?
17 A. It is right here on the main road, between
18 Sakib's house and Mehmed's house.
19 Q. And what does this particular video shot
20 show?
21 A. It shows the house -- I think his name was
22 Suljo, Sakib's son, that is the first house you can see
23 on the screen, that is white with big, black clouds of
24 smoke coming from the windows. Behind it is Fehim's
25 house, the son of Hilmija. Behind it comes Hilmija's
1 house. Then a little to the right is Fikro and Sakib's
2 house, and you can also see the minaret which is the
3 minaret of the mosque.
4 Also, a little bit to the right of this white
5 house, from which this black smoke is coming, you can
6 see a bit of asphalt, a kind of road that led to the
7 village, and that is this road.
8 Q. Then in this video would it be right to say
9 that the Sakib house is immediately to the left, we
10 haven't quite reached it yet?
11 A. Yes. Sakib's house is to the left, not far
12 from this building material that we can see on the
13 fence. After that comes Hakib's house.
14 Q. Can we proceed, please?
15 (Videotape played)
16 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
17 Q. So this would be Sakib's house coming into
18 view now, is that right?
19 A. Yes, this is Sakib's house. Behind it, what
20 we just saw, was a kind of workshop, a carpenter's
21 workshop.
22 Q. And are we now coming up to the road that
23 leads into the village of Ahmici?
24 A. Yes. Just behind this fence we will see the
25 road. Here it is, the road leading to the village,
1 entering the village. This big house is Radzo Pezer's
2 house. Further up again we can see the mosque and the
3 minaret, and another big house opposite the mosque,
4 which is Kasim's house.
5 Q. We can proceed and maybe stop as we get a
6 view down the main road, or down the road into the
7 village, that would be useful.
8 (Videotape played)
9 MR. MOSKOWITZ: How about here?
10 Q. Anything new that you want to point out on
11 this shot?
12 A. From here we again see the road entering the
13 village, and from here we can see all the houses that I
14 have already pointed out, Suljo, Fehim's, Vehbija's,
15 the mosque and the other houses that I mentioned.
16 Q. Can we proceed, please?
17 (Videotape played)
18 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
19 Q. Now we're proceeding down the main road
20 towards Vitez?
21 A. Yes, we're going down the main road in the
22 direction of Vitez. This is Redzo's stable that we're
23 losing from sight, then comes Vidovic's house.
24 Q. Yes. Do you recognise that house?
25 A. Yes, I do recognise it. This is also a
1 Muslim house, but I don't know exactly the name of the
2 owner, but it is next to some timber that didn't used
3 to be there before. It is right here. And this house
4 is this one.
5 Q. Now, you're pointing now on the exhibit of
6 the blow-up of Ahmici, and near your pointer there seems
7 to be a white area next to the main road. Do you know
8 what that white area is or was?
9 A. Yes. Before there was nothing, it was the
10 entrance to a shop, but now some building material is
11 stored there, something like that.
12 Q. Was that place called the Ogrjev by local
13 people in Ahmici? You're familiar with that, Ogrjev?
14 A. No. This didn't exist before. It was built
15 after the 16th of April.
16 Q. And the house depicted in this video you
17 believe is next to that white area?
18 A. Yes, it is this house, this one here.
19 Q. Can we proceed, please?
20 (Videotape played)
21 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
22 Q. Still continuing down the main road there's
23 a --
24 A. Yes. We're going along the main road towards
25 Vitez, and now towards the other side. It is showing
1 these other houses.
2 Q. Can we stop there, please? Can we back up
3 just for a second if we might? Back up to the previous
4 shot of those two houses. Right there. Yes. Do you
5 know those two houses?
6 A. Yes. These two houses. They are these two
7 houses, as I already mentioned, on the other side.
8 Q. Do you know who those houses belong to, if
9 you can recall?
10 A. I think that Suhreta lived in one of the two
11 houses, and I don't know who lived in the other one. I
12 think it was her sister or another relative who lived
13 in the house next door.
14 Q. Can we continue, please?
15 (Videotape played)
16 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Can we stop there, please, so
17 we can get it in focus maybe a couple of frames.
18 Good. Not so good.
19 Q. Now, do you have any idea where this was
20 taken?
21 A. I would like to ask if we could perhaps go
22 back a little --
23 THE INTERPRETER: -- I think the witness
24 means.
25 A. I think it is between this house and this
1 house. Between these two houses. I think it is
2 Zemko's house -- we've lost it again.
3 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
4 Q. We need to go ahead to that --
5 A. Yes. You can just see the corner of the
6 house on the screen. It is this house, Zemko's house.
7 And next to it was Azra's house. We still can't see it
8 on the monitor. Behind this haystack and behind the
9 stable was Zemko's house. And behind Zemko's house you
10 can see another house, which is this house here. It is
11 this house, which was behind Zemko's house. And the
12 body that we see and the path -- one may perhaps notice
13 on the blow-up this path. You can see it on this aerial
14 photograph, that there is a kind of path here. It's
15 very faint.
16 Q. Can we back up a little bit so we can get a
17 close-up of the object in the centre of the screen?
18 (Videotape played)
19 MR. MOSKOWITZ: That's good. I think that's
20 good.
21 Q. Do you think that's a human body or is it an
22 animal?
23 A. This is certainly a human body. It is a
24 woman. You can see the head and the hair, you can see
25 the hands and the legs. You can even see that she's
1 wearing some sort of shoes on her feet. You can even
2 see an ear and a nose on her head.
3 Q. Can you recognise who this person is, or
4 was?
5 A. No, I cannot recognise it because I can't see
6 the face. It could have been one of the inhabitants of
7 the surrounding houses.
8 Q. Can we proceed, please?
9 (Videotape played)
10 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
11 Q. Are we still proceeding towards Vitez looking
12 in a particular direction, or can you tell here?
13 A. Yes. No. We're still going towards Vitez.
14 This is Dubravica, at the cross-roads. This is where --
15 Q. Can we stop here, please?
16 A. -- where the turning point is.
17 Q. The film jumps around a little bit. The
18 previous section you recall is the Dubravica area right
19 here.
20 A. Can we stop there?
21 Q. Yes. What do you see here?
22 A. This, I think, quite a long time ago, maybe
23 20 years ago, this big building used to be, I think, a
24 school, and now something was being made there,
25 manufactured there. It was no longer a school. The
1 school I went to was not far from here.
2 This was the main road going towards Ahmici,
3 Santici and then further on, and this was a road
4 leading to Zenica. Turning off from this road was a
5 road going to Zenica. Perhaps to the right one could
6 see the edge of the road turning slightly.
7 Q. This road to Zenica was the mountain road to
8 Zenica, the Vjetrenica road?
9 A. Yes. Yes, it was the road via Vjetrenica.
10 It is quite a high hill.
11 Q. Can we proceed, please?
12 (Videotape played)
13 A. Here you can see the road turning off.
14 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
15 Q. Can we stop here for a moment. If you could
16 orient us now on this video, tell us where you think we
17 are.
18 A. This is viewed from the main road. The
19 personnel carrier is partly on the road and partly on
20 the grass bank. This is Sakib's house, which was at
21 the very point where the road branches off for Ahmici.
22 The small house that you can see to the right at the
23 edge of the monitor, with some bricks and building
24 blocks, is Mehmed's house, which was destroyed in
25 October and it is actually situated here.
1 Q. Can we proceed, please?
2 (Videotape played)
3 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Can we stop there?
4 Q. Do you know who this person is being carried
5 out on the stretcher?
6 A. In my opinion, this could be Merdanka,
7 Sakib's wife who lived in Sakib's house. It could be a
8 woman. You can see that she's rather fat and she has
9 breasts, and she could be wearing pyjamas. I think it
10 could be her.
11 Q. But you don't know for certain who that is?
12 A. No, I don't know for certain.
13 Q. Can we proceed?
14 (Videotape played)
15 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
16 Q. Yes. Is it possible to identify that
17 person?
18 A. No, I cannot.
19 Q. Do you have any sense of where this was
20 taken?
21 A. This could be -- you can see a part of a
22 small car, rather the lights, and this open door
23 reminds me of the door of Zijad's garage, which was
24 right of the road. He died, yes. This is this other
25 house on the map.
1 Q. Now we're panning back, and maybe this will
2 give us more -- no, go ahead. Go forward, please.
3 (Videotape played)
4 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
5 Q. As the camera pans back, there will be more
6 information. You can go at a faster speed.
7 (Videotape played)
8 A. This is not the garage that I had in mind.
9 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
10 Q. Do you have any idea where it is now?
11 A. Yes, yes. Could we go back a little,
12 please?
13 (Videotape played)
14 A. Perhaps we can stop there. This is here,
15 between these houses, close to the body that was lying
16 on the road that was shown a moment ago, because a
17 moment ago, we saw this big house which was behind,
18 with the bricks and with the roof. And this small
19 garage, and this, actually, to the right, I think, is a
20 stable made out of blocks, and I think that is here.
21 And this is the little path that led from Zemko's house
22 to Azra's house. You would pass between the stable,
23 the garage. And in between was the path going towards
24 Azra's house which was right behind.
25 MR. MOSKOWITZ: May we proceed, please?
1 (Videotape played)
2 A. It's a big house, this house.
3 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
4 Q. Proceed, please.
5 A. The one facing us.
6 Q. You may proceed, please.
7 (Videotape played)
8 A. I think perhaps behind the fence we can see
9 this part here.
10 Q. Perhaps we can proceed at normal speed now.
11 (Videotape played)
12 A. The corner that we saw a moment ago next to
13 the tank, that was Zemko's house. This edge of the
14 wall that we just saw.
15 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
16 Q. Thank you. You also talked about yesterday
17 being picked up by UNPROFOR. And I would ask at this
18 time before we turn the lights back on -- perhaps
19 that's too late to request -- to play the second part
20 of this video, and again, Witness G, if you could
21 narrate for us, this is quite a bit shorter, and tell
22 us what we're viewing.
23 A. As I have already said, as I said yesterday,
24 I left this house here. Actually, I noticed from that
25 house that UNPROFOR was somewhere here in Pirici, and I
1 saw them moving in this direction, reaching this road
2 and going down towards the mosque, past the mosque, and
3 then it stopped somewhere here. One of them stopped
4 next to Hadzija's house, one PC, and another one was
5 right close by, and the other three or four stopped
6 here next to Sakib's house, along the main road.
7 As I said yesterday, when I saw them stopping
8 there and coming out and looking around and taking
9 photographs of I don't know what, I slowly got out of
10 the house and headed along this road towards them to
11 call out to them or do something like that. And so I
12 went slowly, because I could only walk on one leg. At
13 times I would rely on the other one with my toes,
14 because I didn't dare lean on it fully. And holding on
15 to a fence, I limped along slowly and reached Hidjet's
16 house, and from there I still couldn't see them. So I
17 went on, I passed Hidjet's house and reached roughly
18 this point, this clearing here, and from there I could
19 see them. They were, as I said already, near Hadzija's
20 house and near Sakib's house, and there was another PC
21 here. The others were on the main road.
22 And from there I waved my hand and I called
23 out to them. And when I said, "Come on, help me," they
24 heard me and turned around. I called out another one
25 or two times, and then lay down in the grass, because I
1 was afraid that somebody from Papic's house or anyone
2 else might see me. And as I was lying in the grass, I
3 heard the PCs start but I thought they were leaving,
4 because I couldn't see where they were going and I
5 thought they were going to leave, thinking that perhaps
6 this was some sort of ambush, and already I was
7 thinking which house I should go to hide.
8 Q. Witness G, could I interrupt you for a
9 moment? Could I direct your attention to the video in
10 front of you, and if we can play that, perhaps that
11 will illustrate your testimony more vividly.
12 (Videotape played)
13 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
14 Q. Is that the school?
15 A. Yes. The right-hand side was the school, and
16 they were there. They were going from the upper part
17 and they were at the mosque already.
18 Q. If we could stop there for a moment, just so
19 that we can get our bearings. Could you show us on the
20 aerial map the point of view of this particular shot,
21 if you can?
22 A. It was filmed from here. You can see
23 Hadzija's house a little bit. Then you can see the
24 school yard, a part of it, over on the other side. And
25 here was the mosque, which, by now, had been
1 destroyed. This was the eighth day. This was where
2 the bus, the commuter bus, would stop. Below, you can
3 see two chimneys. That was Hilmo's house, which was
4 right across from the mosque.
5 Q. So you're pointing on the road that leads
6 into Ahmici looking from above the mosque in the
7 direction of the main road; would that be right?
8 A. Yes, from this vantage point.
9 Q. Can we continue, please?
10 (Videotape played)
11 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
12 Q. The school yard would be to the right and
13 that would be the mosque?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Still proceeding down the road.
16 A. Yes. Now we have passed this point here, and
17 they are now at Redzo Pezer's house. I don't know.
18 They must have filmed something or it is from an APC,
19 and this is Redzo's house to the side. It's hard for
20 me to explain exactly where I was at that time when
21 they were around here.
22 Q. Let's stop there for a moment, please. Do
23 you see anything in the centre of the screen that can
24 give you bearings and give us bearings as to where we
25 are?
1 A. Yes. This is Fehima's house. It is this
2 house here, and it is viewed from here. So this is
3 where Redzo's house was, where this APC was. From
4 there, you could see Fehima's house, and across from
5 it, this was Hilmo's son, Fehim. In the distance, you
6 can see the minaret which had fallen over the roof of
7 the mosque.
8 Q. Can we continue, please?
9 (Videotape played)
10 A. This is Fehima's stable which was behind the
11 house.
12 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
13 Q. What do you see in this photograph?
14 A. Can we back up a little bit?
15 Q. Can we back up a little bit, please, to the
16 previous shot?
17 A. No, no, no, just this. This may be enough.
18 Q. Could you tell us what we're looking at,
19 please?
20 A. This big house is Hidajet's house which is
21 located here. The fence remained intact throughout
22 this period, and it still exists. It was running
23 alongside the house. I am the boy who is lying down
24 here on the grass in the dark clothing, and right now
25 there's one UNPROFOR soldier there. Maybe you can see
1 how he has split open the leg of my pants and he is
2 dressing my wound, and you can see a portion of the
3 skin, but it was just a cursory dressing that he gave
4 me at that time.
5 In the background, you can see Elvir's house
6 and his barn with a white roof.
7 Q. Can we continue, please, at normal speed?
8 (Videotape played)
9 A. Yes. Those are the two vehicles that came
10 for me, and this is while they were working on my
11 wound. While they were doing this, there was no
12 interpreter there, there was no one there. So they
13 asked me something, and as far as I could understand,
14 which was just a few words, they asked me whether I was
15 by myself and where I was, and they told me that they
16 would take me to Zenica to the hospital.
17 See, now I'm showing them that I was over
18 there, that I was in this house here, that I had come
19 to this place. Now the APCs went and turned around.
20 Then I was put in the vehicle and I was taken to the
21 hospital in Travnik. This is the road on which I had
22 come. It's right here behind Hidajet's house.
23 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
24 Q. Does that road look like that today or has it
25 changed?
1 A. The road looks the same today. It is a dirt
2 road and it is mixed in with gravel.
3 Q. Has it become somewhat overgrown, or do you
4 know, from lack of use?
5 A. Yes. It was quite overgrown, but I believe
6 that now it's been cleaned up and it looks as it used
7 to look before.
8 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I think the final series of
9 questions, Mr. President, might be better done in
10 closed session.
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
12 (Closed session)
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