1. 1Friday, 4th September 1998

    2 (The accused entered court)

    3 --- Upon commencing at 9.37 a.m.

    4 (Open session)

    5 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-16-T, the

    6 Prosecutor versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic,

    7 Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic and

    8 Vladimir Santic also know as Vlado.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Good morning.

    10 Before we start, let me turn to Mr. Zoran

    11 Kupreskic. I will ask you to stand and let us know

    12 whether yesterday evening you were given the

    13 opportunity to enjoy fresh air for one hour in the

    14 detention unit.

    15 THE ACCUSED: Yes, Your Honours, we did have

    16 that opportunity.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may sit. I'm

    18 very pleased that our request was complied with, and --

    19 because, of course, this is a basic right of detainees,

    20 particularly while they are standing trial, but I had

    21 been told yesterday that repairs were underway, so it

    22 was extremely difficult. I would like, therefore, to

    23 express publicly the gratitude of the court to two

    24 persons, Mr. Edgar Hoppe, the Deputy Commanding

    25 Officer, and Mr. Christian Rohde, a legal officer in

  2. 1the registry, who both made it possible for the accused

    2 to enjoy one hour of fresh air. I understand in the

    3 big courtyard, in a better location than usual, and the

    4 same will apply to them this evening.

    5 Of course, as I said before, this is a basic

    6 right, but not very often it's not a privilege or a

    7 concession but very often basic rights may not be

    8 implemented because of practical difficulties.

    9 Again, let me also take the opportunity to

    10 thank Mr. Radovic for raising this issue. We may now

    11 proceed. I will turn to the Prosecutor.

    12 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, Mr. President.

    13 Before we proceed to our next witness, I would like to

    14 update the Court on the recent development with a

    15 witness, and I would like to do that, if possible, in

    16 closed session.

    17 (Closed session)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  3. 1












    13 Pages 1855 to 1883 redacted - in closed session













  1. 1(redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (Open session)

    11 (The witness entered court)

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Mr. Sakib

    13 Ahmic. Could you please make the solemn declaration?

    14 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I shall

    15 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

    16 truth.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, you may be

    18 seated. Mr. Moskowitz?

    19 WITNESS: Sakib Ahmic

    20 Examined by Mr. Moskowitz:

    21 Q. Thank you, Mr. President.

    22 Good morning, Mr. Ahmic. And for the record,

    23 could you please state your name?

    24 A. Good morning. My name is Sakib Ahmic.

    25 Q. Mr. Ahmic, could you tell us how old you are,

  2. 1or if it's easier for you, tell us what year you were

    2 born?

    3 A. I was born on the 17th of January, 1933.

    4 Q. And in April of 1993, where did you live?

    5 A. In the village of Pirici.

    6 Q. Would that be a part of a village known as

    7 Ahmici?

    8 A. Yes, precisely. It is a part of Ahmici. All

    9 this comes under Ahmici, Pirici, a part of Zume, but as

    10 I was born in the village of Pirici, then I usually say

    11 Pirici, though it all belongs to Ahmici and it is, in

    12 fact, Ahmici.

    13 Q. Thank you. How long did you live in the

    14 village of Ahmici?

    15 A. You mean since my birth.

    16 Q. Exactly.

    17 A. I was born in the village of Pirici, and now

    18 I'm residing in the territory of Ahmici and Pirici. I

    19 have been living in the territory of Ahmici since 1957,

    20 when I built my house there.

    21 MR. MOSKOWITZ: At this point, may I ask the

    22 usher to show the Prosecution Exhibit next number?

    23 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 150.


    25 Q. Now, Mr. Ahmic, you see before you an exhibit

  3. 1that we've called Exhibit 150. You can feel free to

    2 move that exhibit around in any way that you like in

    3 order to better familiarise yourself to what that

    4 exhibit shows. And if you look at it, can you tell us

    5 what that exhibit shows?

    6 A. This exhibit shows my area, my

    7 neighbourhood.

    8 Q. Now, you mentioned that you built a house in

    9 the 1950's?

    10 A. 1957.

    11 Q. And before coming to court today, I believe

    12 you had a chance to look at that map and make some

    13 circles around houses that you recognise, and that then

    14 afterward we transferred those circles through the

    15 computer so that they would look neat. Do those

    16 circles correspond or match the circles you made on the

    17 map when you looked at it before coming to court?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Now, can you find your house on this Exhibit

    20 150, and if so, could you point to it with the pointer

    21 that you now have in your hand and tell us what number

    22 or letter is next to that circle?

    23 A. Yes. My house has been marked with the

    24 number 56.

    25 Q. Who were some of your closest neighbours,

  4. 1both Croatian and Muslim, in that neighbourhood that is

    2 displayed in that Exhibit 150?

    3 A. My neighbours had their houses nearby. They

    4 were Vlatko Kupreskic here. This is his house.

    5 Q. Could you read out -- as you point to these

    6 houses, could you read out the letter or number that

    7 they correspond to, so we can be clear in the record?

    8 A. The letter B.

    9 Q. Do you see any I other houses marked that you

    10 can identify as being your neighbours' or relatives'?

    11 A. Yes, I can. Letter L is Franjo Kupreskic's

    12 house. He is Vlatko's father. Number 56 -- 55 is

    13 Sukret Ahmic. He is next to 56. Then K is the

    14 warehouse of Vlatko Kupreskic. C is Zoran Kupreskic's

    15 house. D is Mirjan Kupreskic's house. J is Ivica

    16 Kupreskic's house.

    17 Q. Now, you mentioned Sukret's house. Could you

    18 tell us who Sukret is?

    19 A. Sukret. Sukret is my son.

    20 Q. Can you give us the composition of his

    21 family, without giving any names, please?

    22 A. I can. You mean his immediate family?

    23 Q. Yes, please.

    24 A. He had a wife and three daughters.

    25 Q. Now, you mentioned Vlatko Kupreskic's house.

  5. 1How long have you known Vlatko Kupreskic?

    2 A. I have known Vlatko Kupreskic since he was

    3 born. From his childhood to the present day.

    4 Q. And how long did you know Zoran Kupreskic?

    5 A. Likewise. I know him from his birth to the

    6 present.

    7 Q. And how well have you known Mirjan

    8 Kupreskic?

    9 A. Also the same. Since he was born until the

    10 present day.

    11 Q. Could you give us an idea of how often

    12 through the years, and under what situations through

    13 the years you would associate with, or see Vlatko

    14 Kupreskic, Zoran Kupreskic and Mirjan Kupresic.

    15 A. Yes, of course. We would see others in

    16 passing, as neighbours. They would be working in their

    17 garden, I would be working in mine, so we would see

    18 each other more or less every day because we are the

    19 closest neighbours. We are next-door neighbours. Our

    20 houses are next to one another.

    21 Q. Now, in 1993, were you working or were you on

    22 a retired status?

    23 A. I was retired.

    24 Q. Could you give us an idea of what you did

    25 when you were working, what your job was and where you

  6. 1were employed?

    2 A. I was a driver of passenger vehicles. I used

    3 to drive managers. I worked in a company called Sipad

    4 Sebesic, branch office Travnik, Department Impregnacija

    5 Vitez. I was always driving passenger vehicles,

    6 driving heads of the accounting service. I even drove

    7 the Minister of Fianance of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Drago

    8 Bilandjija.

    9 Q. And as part of your employment as a driver

    10 for the Impregnacija, did you receive regular medical

    11 examinations to determine your fitness to be a driver?

    12 A. Yes. Every year we had regular obligatory

    13 check-ups. This applied not only to me, but all of us

    14 who held responsible posts.

    15 Q. Would these check-ups include eye

    16 examinations?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Could you tell us if you recall how you did

    19 on those eye examinations?

    20 A. On the optical device, they ask you to

    21 recognise numbers and that's how they did the check-up.

    22 Q. Were you ever prescribed glasses?

    23 A. No.

    24 Q. Were your eyes in good shape? Could you see

    25 well enough to be a driver for these important people?

  7. 1A. Yes. Yes, good eyesight, and good hearing

    2 and great care are required.

    3 Q. Now, would I ask the usher at this point to

    4 show to the witness previously admitted Exhibit 138.

    5 Now, Mr. Ahmic, you described some of your

    6 neighbours, on that blow-up. Now I would like you to

    7 look at Exhibit 138 and tell us, first of all, what you

    8 see in the foreground of this photograph, the object --

    9 the biggest object at the foreground of this

    10 photograph. Tell us what that is, please.

    11 A. My house. This is my house.

    12 Q. This is not the way your house looked in

    13 1993, is it?

    14 A. No.

    15 Q. Now look behind your house. Can you identify

    16 any of the houses depicted in that photograph behind

    17 your house?

    18 A. Yes, I can.

    19 Q. Could you look at the house that has the 1 on

    20 it first and tell us what that is?

    21 A. House number 1 is Mirjan Kupreskic's house.

    22 Q. What about house number 2?

    23 A. House number 2 is Zoran Kupreskic's house.

    24 Q. And house number 3?

    25 A. House number 3 is Ivica Kupreskic's house.

  8. 1Q. Can you identify any of the other houses not

    2 numbered?

    3 A. I can. Just behind number 3 you see a roof,

    4 and that is the house of Ivo Kupreskic, Ivica's

    5 father. This one here is Jozo's house, and this one

    6 behind, his brother Ranko's house.

    7 Q. Could the witness be shown previously entered

    8 Exhibit 139?

    9 Now, Mr. Ahmic, could you look at Exhibit 139

    10 and see if you can identify any of the houses in this

    11 photograph? And if a house is numbered, could you

    12 refer to the number so we're clear for the record?

    13 A. Yes, I can. Yes, I can tell you exactly that

    14 house number 1 is Mirjan Kupreskic's house.

    15 Q. Do you see any other houses that you

    16 recognise from this photograph?

    17 A. Yes. Yes, I can. House number 2 is Zoran

    18 Kupreskic's.

    19 Q. Do you see any other houses?

    20 A. Yes. I see a house, the house of Sukrija,

    21 the late Sukrija Ahmic. I see the house of Vlatko

    22 Kupreskic.

    23 Q. Does the house of Vlatko Kupreskic have a

    24 number?

    25 A. Vlatko Kupreskic's? Does it have a number?

  9. 1Q. Yes, if you see on the photograph a number

    2 corresponding to Vlatko Kupreskic's house?

    3 A. Yes, I do. It's number 3.

    4 Q. You mentioned seeing the house of Sukrija.

    5 Could you point that out again using your pointer so we

    6 can see what that is?

    7 A. Yes, I can. I can show it to you. This is

    8 Sukrija's house, the late Sukrija.

    9 Q. Would that be the house that appears to be

    10 near that evergreen tree in the centre of the

    11 photograph?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Can you see your house --

    14 A. This part here is my field toilet, my outside

    15 toilet, and this is a fir tree behind it.

    16 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Can we show the next exhibit,

    17 which would be 140, please?

    18 Q. Please look at this exhibit, if you would,

    19 Mr. Ahmic, and tell us if you can identify any of the

    20 buildings in this photograph.

    21 A. Yes, I can. Number 4 is the house of Vlatko

    22 Kupreskic, number 3 is the Hrustanovic house, number 2

    23 is Sukrija Ahmic's house.

    24 Q. The first house you pointed to, you said it

    25 was number 4, and the marking on it is a little

  10. 1confused. Could you point to it again just so we can

    2 see which house you're referring to, using your

    3 pointer?

    4 A. You mean the house under number 4; is that

    5 what you're asking?

    6 Q. Yes, the one that looks like number 4 on that

    7 exhibit but which is, in fact, number 1.

    8 A. My apologies. It is my mistake then. But it

    9 is this house marked with 1 that is Vlatko Kupreskic's

    10 house. As I said, number 3 is Hrustanovic's house, and

    11 number 2 Sukrija Ahmic's house.

    12 Q. Thank you. Now, you've mentioned that some

    13 of your neighbours included Zoran, Mirjan, and Vlatko

    14 Kupreskic and that you've known them since they were

    15 born. Could you give us an idea what kind of relations

    16 you had with these three people and their families in

    17 the years before the attack in 1993? Were they good or

    18 bad?

    19 A. Good relations. I had nothing bad towards

    20 them, nor did I receive anything bad from their part.

    21 Q. Over the years, did you have an opportunity

    22 to observe Zoran, Mirjan, and Vlatko grow up into young

    23 men?

    24 A. Yes. And their growing up was fine, decent,

    25 well-behaved young men.

  11. 1Q. Could you tell us generally what the

    2 relations were between Muslims and Croats in Ahmici in

    3 the years before the trouble in '93 and '92?

    4 A. I can honestly say that they were very good

    5 relations, generally speaking, and on average,

    6 everybody was in a good relationship with everybody

    7 else, as far as I know.

    8 Q. Did you notice, though, that those relations

    9 tended, over time, to worsen, that there were

    10 problems? I am now trying to focus your attention on

    11 the period before the attack, in '92, '93.

    12 A. I don't know. There was nothing, really. We

    13 lived well.

    14 Q. Now, prior to the attack in '93, do you

    15 recall a situation that took place in Ahmici in '92

    16 over a barricade?

    17 A. Yes, I heard about it, but, frankly, I do not

    18 know anything about that.

    19 Q. Do you recall where you were during that

    20 period of time? Were you at your house in Ahmici or

    21 were you somewhere else?

    22 A. To be honest, I myself cannot really tell

    23 where I was at that time.

    24 Q. Now, could you tell us something a little bit

    25 about the village guard or the Territorial Defence?

  12. 1What do you know about that and were you part of that?

    2 A. Yes. There was the Territorial Defence which

    3 patrolled around the village at night so that nobody

    4 would bring in any extremists, or maybe set a barn on

    5 fire, or something like that.

    6 Q. Did you, as a retired person, have any

    7 particular role in that Territorial Defence or village

    8 guard?

    9 A. Yes, I did. I had watch duty in a school for

    10 this Territorial Defence and civilian protection, so to

    11 speak. In fact, it was civilian protection. I had a

    12 post in a school in Ahmici where we had a radio

    13 transmitter, and that is where I had my duty post.

    14 Q. Did you have a weapon?

    15 A. No.

    16 Q. Now, you mentioned a school. Is this that

    17 elementary school building in Ahmici that is across

    18 from the mosque with the minaret?

    19 A. Yes, exactly. That is that building, the

    20 school building.

    21 Q. How would you describe this village guard?

    22 Was this an army or was this something else?

    23 A. No, this was not an army. Let me describe it

    24 to you. It's very simple. These people were civilians

    25 who were on guard duties every night, and they had

  13. 1two-hour shifts on this night patrol. It was not a

    2 guard, it was a patrol. They would walk through the

    3 village from one end to the other, they would walk

    4 around, and in that sense, it was how this patrol

    5 functioned.

    6 Q. I want to focus your attention to the day

    7 before the attack in 1993. Do you recall seeing

    8 anything that aroused your suspicions, or was

    9 everything perfectly quiet, as far as you recall?

    10 A. Not everything was as usual. There were

    11 patrols in the village, and on the eve of the conflict,

    12 I went with my two sons to visit my sister who lived

    13 near Kaonik, and we were told that someone tried to get

    14 out on the main road, but the HVO apparently had put up

    15 a ramp there, so we couldn't leave.

    16 That day, sometime between 11.00 and 12.00,

    17 the three of us got into a car and went to the main

    18 road, and indeed, on the main road, I saw the HVO

    19 soldiers with rifles sitting there, and among them was

    20 Brcko Milicevic. I don't know his first name. His

    21 nickname is Brcko. And then a son of Simo Vidovic was

    22 there, then Vlatko Kupreskic was there with them and

    23 Ivo Kupreskic was there with them, and Ivo had a chair

    24 behind the school and he had a bottle of cognac in

    25 front of him. Nobody told us anything. We came down

  14. 1to the main road. We went to Kaonik, to my sister's,

    2 and we had no problems doing that. This is what I

    3 actually could see.

    4 Q. In the days prior to or before the attack,

    5 did you see anything that struck you as odd or

    6 suspicious with respect to Ivica Kupreskic?

    7 A. Yes, I did see Ivica Kupreskic wearing a

    8 military uniform, and I had also heard that he was

    9 giving orders to these men.

    10 Q. Were you able to notice any activity around

    11 Ivica Kupreskic's house that you found interesting or

    12 suspicious?

    13 A. Yes. I remember very well. This could have

    14 been on the 13th or 14th in the evening, around 9.00.

    15 A small tonne truck, 1.5 tonne truck, came in front of

    16 the Ivica Kupreskic's house, and that evening there was

    17 no outside light that was on in front of their houses,

    18 on their houses, and it was usual that every night they

    19 had those lights on.

    20 That truck was parked there for the night,

    21 and in the morning, around 7.00, this truck left Ivica

    22 Kupreskic's yard. As it passed Zoran's house, it

    23 honked. It went onto the main road and turned off and

    24 went to Vitez.

    25 Q. Despite these incidents, did you have any

  15. 1idea of what was about to happen on April 16, 1993?

    2 A. I did not expect what we then experienced.

    3 Q. Could you, at this time, tell us a little bit

    4 about your house? I believe you told us when it was

    5 built, but can you give us an idea of how big it is, or

    6 was, and how many rooms were in the house, and how many

    7 people were in the house so that we have an idea of

    8 what your house was like in 1993?

    9 A. Yes, I can describe it for you. This house

    10 was 8 by 9.3 metres in section. It had two rooms. On

    11 the lower part, there was a living room and a kitchen,

    12 and then we had a verandah with a small hallway and

    13 then there was a bathroom there and a small living room

    14 area and a little pantry. That was in that part of the

    15 house.

    16 Q. Is this a large house or a small house, or

    17 how would you describe it in terms of size?

    18 A. It's medium size, so to speak.

    19 MR. MOSKOWITZ: May I ask the usher to --

    20 A. I apologise. There was also a basement.

    21 Half of the section also had a lower level where there

    22 were two rooms.

    23 Q. So to be clear, the house was built on a kind

    24 of -- on a kind of a hill where part of the house had a

    25 basement and part of the house did not have a basement;

  16. 1would that be accurate?

    2 A. I do not understand. You mean there was a

    3 part with a basement, and what was the other part?

    4 Q. I'm sorry. It was probably not a very good

    5 question. But if you can describe the house as being

    6 built not on a flat piece of land, but on a land that

    7 sloped downward so that there could be lower floors

    8 only on part of the house, and no lower floor on the

    9 other part of the house?

    10 A. Yes, that is correct. There was a certain --

    11 the terrain was sloping, it was an incline -- or

    12 decline, so we used that decline to build two

    13 additional rooms under the main level.

    14 MR. MOSKOWITZ: May I ask the usher to show

    15 the next exhibit, please?

    16 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number

    17 151.


    19 Q. Mr. Ahmic, could you look at exhibit, what

    20 has been marked 151, and you can move it any way you

    21 want so that you can make the most sense out of it.

    22 Don't be afraid to turn it around so that it makes

    23 sense to you. Is that better?

    24 A. Yes, this is more convenient for me.

    25 Q. Would you tell us generally what that shows?

  17. 1A. This represents the foundations of the

    2 house. It represents the house.

    3 Q. Could you, with your pointer, take us through

    4 your house as if we were coming in through the front

    5 door and show us where the rooms are and tell us

    6 anything else of interest that you think of as you go

    7 through the house? Take us first through the front

    8 door and then show us your house, please.

    9 A. This is my house. This is the front entrance

    10 to the verandah. Here is a little bathroom and here is

    11 a pantry; three windows. The door to the living room;

    12 one window, the second window. This is the door to the

    13 room where I was staying, and this is the entrance to

    14 the second room, and there is one window and another

    15 window in the other room. So this would be my house.

    16 These are all the entrances to all the rooms

    17 (indicating).

    18 Here was a stove, around this area, here was

    19 a couch, here there was a sink, there was another couch

    20 here, here there was a little cabinet. There was a

    21 little side table with a television set. There was a

    22 table with chairs, and here was a small cot for a baby

    23 (indicating).

    24 Q. You mentioned a baby. On April 15, 1993, the

    25 day before the attack, could you tell us who was in the

  18. 1house that evening beside yourself?

    2 A. On 15 April, is that what you said?

    3 Q. Yes, Mr. Ahmic. The day before the attack.

    4 A. On 15 April, in the evening, we went to visit

    5 Redzib Ahmic; myself, the late Naser and his wife and

    6 the children. We stayed out till about 10.00, and

    7 thereupon we came back home and went to sleep.

    8 Q. Could you tell us who was in the house when

    9 you all went to sleep that night?

    10 A. In the house, there was the late Naser, his

    11 wife, my daughter-in-law, Elvis, his stepson and their

    12 son Sejo, also deceased now, and I was in my room here.

    13 Q. Now, you mentioned first Naser. He was your

    14 son; is that right?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. And then you mentioned his wife. That would

    17 be your daughter-in-law?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. And then Elvis. Who was Elvis again, please?

    20 A. Elvis was the son of Naser's wife. Naser's

    21 wife had been married before. She divorced and then

    22 she remarried my son Naser. Elvis is her son with her

    23 first husband who happened to be at our place. He was

    24 there for about 15 days, visiting.

    25 Q. Do you recall roughly how old Elvis was that

  19. 1day?

    2 A. I don't know exactly, but I thought he was

    3 six or seven. I always thought he was six or seven,

    4 whereas I do know about Sejad.

    5 Q. So Elvis was essentially a young boy?

    6 A. Yes, that's right.

    7 Q. Now, Sejo, tell us about Sejo. Who was he

    8 and about how old was he?

    9 A. Sejo was the new-born baby, he was three

    10 months old, and on the morning of the Friday of the

    11 16th of April, he was three months old.

    12 Q. How do you recall that so specifically, that

    13 on the morning of the 16th of April, he was three

    14 months old?

    15 A. You know how I know? Let me tell you. On

    16 the evening we went to Redzib Ahmic's house, he also

    17 has a male child, and he was to have the circumcision

    18 done, and on that particular night, we talked to them,

    19 and we agreed that I would go to Zenica, to the

    20 hospital there, to see when they had free time to

    21 perform the circumcision rite, and that is how I know

    22 exactly when he was born.

    23 MR. MOSKOWITZ: May I ask the usher to show

    24 the next exhibit, please?

    25 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 152.


    2 Q. Now, Mr. Ahmic, could you look at Exhibit 152

    3 and again tell us -- move it around any way you like so

    4 that you're comfortable with it, but tell us, once you

    5 are comfortable with it, what that shows?

    6 A. On this layout, you can see the furniture

    7 that was in the rooms. Let me describe it. This is

    8 the fixed couch along the wall. This is the body of my

    9 late daughter-in-law, this is the couch on which the

    10 late Elvis slept, this is the stove, this is a chair

    11 that was there by the door, and this is the cot in

    12 which Sejo, the late Sejo slept. This is the

    13 television table, and this is a little cabinet, a

    14 cupboard (indicating).

    15 Q. Now, could you tell us where you were

    16 sleeping that night, and use this diagram to display

    17 that?

    18 A. I slept in this room here, in this part of

    19 the room, and it says here exactly (indicating).

    20 Q. Now, looking at the bed where Elvis slept,

    21 could you point to that again?

    22 A. Yes, I can. This is Elvis's bed, the couch

    23 he slept on (indicating).

    24 Q. Could you describe that couch and tell us

    25 what that couch looked like and what kind of couch it

  21. 1was?

    2 A. This couch, you could pull it out to sleep

    3 on.

    4 Q. Do you recall whether the couch was pulled

    5 out that night to sleep on?

    6 A. Yes, it was.

    7 Q. What kind of arms did that couch have?

    8 A. The couch had arms like this, for example,

    9 like this chair, the arms of the couch were like this.

    10 It had an arm on one side and an arm on the other side.

    11 Q. Now, were these arms in the shape of the arms

    12 on that chair; that's what you're meaning when you're

    13 saying "similar," curved like that?

    14 A. Well, there was material there, they

    15 were upholstered, a lot of material on the arms. This

    16 thick. The arms were this thick with material,

    17 upholstered. That was the shape, more or less. And it

    18 had sponge inside, a foam interior.

    19 Q. Now, I want to focus your attention on the

    20 events of April 16, 1995 -- 1993, excuse me. Tell us

    21 where you were again that morning before the incident

    22 occurred, and use your pointer to show us.

    23 A. At that particular moment, I was here in this

    24 room, in the bed (indicating).

    25 Q. What is the first thing you recall happening

  22. 1that morning, the first thing you saw or heard that

    2 morning?

    3 A. That morning, I heard the morning

    4 call-to-prayer; and at the end of the prayer, I heard

    5 an explosion. First I heard a child who was awake, and

    6 I heard my daughter-in-law tell Naser to give him

    7 his pacifier. After that, I heard an explosion, and I

    8 jumped out of bed and went to the door. When I came to

    9 the door, I saw the light had been turned on, and I

    10 told Naser, "Turn the lights off."

    11 At that moment, when I said this, at the

    12 door, a soldier appeared. He had a black uniform on

    13 and he had black on his face, and Zoran Kupreskic

    14 entered through the door. Naser was somewhere around

    15 here, in front of the television set. He shot Naser.

    16 Mirjan had some liquid coming out of a bottle, some

    17 flam -- and the couch was set on fire. He shot at my

    18 daughter-in-law, fired at my daughter-in-law, and then

    19 went towards Elvis.

    20 At that time, I fell down and knocked my head

    21 against the wall. That was where my body was and he

    22 was standing here (indicating), and he shot at me.

    23 Through the arm of the couch, I heard a bullet, a shell

    24 falling. I went back. The child cried out. I heard

    25 the child again. And then there was shooting. They

  23. 1shot at the child and then left.

    2 At that moment, I got up, shot up, and went

    3 to the window. I opened the right-hand side of the

    4 window, looked through the curtains, and saw in front

    5 of Vlatko's house the Ustasha, members of the HVO. I

    6 did not dare go outside. I wanted to jump out of the

    7 window, but when I saw them, I did not dare jump out of

    8 the window to fall into their hands. So I just stayed

    9 there. I was beside myself.

    10 I saw a cable to the light bulb, I heard

    11 cries. They said, "Jure, Jure," and in my opinion,

    12 that was from Suhi Hrast, the cry came from Suhi Hrast,

    13 and he said, "Don't shoot, it's me." At that moment, I

    14 knew that it would be Gavrilo Vrebac and his brother

    15 Jure. Gavrilo, who was at the Urdelic house, and his

    16 brother, who was at Suhi Hrast's, more or less. At

    17 that moment, I knew that it must be them. I stood

    18 there, I waited for my fate. I was not able to jump

    19 out of the window. I did not dare jump through the

    20 window. The door was on fire. Part of the ceiling was

    21 on fire and fell down into the room. I could see that

    22 the window and the door had been burnt down.

    23 I looked through the window again and I saw

    24 Vlatko Kupreskic going out of the yard from the late

    25 Sukrija's yard, from the top, across my garden and in

  24. 1front of his own house, down towards his house.

    2 He had a coat. He was carrying something

    3 under the coat. He was carrying a coat and he had

    4 something underneath in his arms. It was a blue coat.

    5 But I stayed there for as long as I could.

    6 And as everything began to fall down from the ceiling,

    7 I had no more -- I couldn't breathe, and then I ran

    8 through the fire.

    9 I braced the fire and I reached the shed. I

    10 opened the shed, got hold of the handle, ran up by the

    11 hay. And was hay in the stable, some 70 or 80

    12 centimetres high, all over the barn. I hid under the

    13 hay towards the wall, and that's where I hid, and

    14 that's where I watched what happened. And afterwards

    15 Flala Sukret (phoen) came out into the yard.

    16 Q. Before we go on to the barn, let's go back a

    17 little bit and clarify some things about what happened

    18 in the house?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Could you tell us where your son Naser was

    21 when you came to the door of your bedroom, using your

    22 pointer, where he was before the shooting started?

    23 A. Naser was standing about here.

    24 Q. Could you take that marker that's next to

    25 you, and with the help of the usher perhaps, and put an

  25. 1X so we can identify where Naser was when you saw him

    2 before the shooting started? Make an X there so we can

    3 really see it.

    4 And where was the light switch in the house?

    5 A. The light switch was here, here on the wall.

    6 Q. Could you just put a little mark next to that

    7 so we know where the light switch is? You don't need

    8 to put an X but maybe just a little dot with the

    9 marker.

    10 A. The light switch was there. We had two light

    11 bulbs in that room. One of them was on the ceiling

    12 above the table, and the second light bulb was about

    13 there, and the switches were where the dot is.

    14 Q. Can you draw little circles where the light

    15 bulbs were in that room, please?

    16 A. Yes. They were about here. Hereabouts.

    17 Q. Now, I perhaps forgot to ask you this earlier

    18 and I should have asked you this earlier, but could you

    19 describe the kind of bed your daughter-in-law was

    20 sleeping on that night?

    21 A. It was not a bed, in fact, it was a

    22 mattress. No bed. The floor, and on the floor there

    23 was just a mattress, and they slept on that mattress.

    24 Q. Now, on this drawing it looks like it's quite

    25 a distance from where Naser was to where the light

  26. 1switch is. Was it a long way in your room actually

    2 between Naser's position and the light switch?

    3 A. A metre and a half thereabouts. It's a

    4 small -- it's a small room, not a big room. Maybe a

    5 metre and a half. Maybe two metres, for example, from

    6 the switch. Two metres, let's say.

    7 Q. Can you show us again, with your pointer,

    8 where you were when you saw Naser before he was shot?

    9 A. Yes, I can. That was where I was. I was

    10 standing here at the doorway.

    11 Q. And could you put a little mark there,

    12 perhaps a circle?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. And could you tell us where the man who came

    15 into the door was when you first saw him, who you say

    16 is Zoran Kupreskic?

    17 A. Yes I can. He was here.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Radovic?

    19 MR. RADOVIC: The witness said that he first

    20 saw a soldier and that behind the soldier he saw Zoran

    21 Kupreskic.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: No, I can't remember, but we

    23 will check the transcript. In any case, I think the

    24 question was, "The man whom you saw."

    25 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I will certainly ask that

  27. 1question.

    2 MR. RADOVIC: Would you check, please,

    3 first?

    4 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps it could be clarified, in

    5 fact, with the witness. The witness referred to a

    6 soldier. He then referred to Zoran. He didn't say

    7 where they were.

    8 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I will be happy to clarify

    9 that.

    10 Q. Now, Mr. Ahmic, could you tell us where the

    11 soldier was when you first saw him enter the room?

    12 A. Yes, I can. It's this part when he entered

    13 the room. It was Zoran Kupreskic. Perhaps I was wrong

    14 in what I said, but -- I was wrong to use the term

    15 "soldier" instead of saying Zoran Kupreskic.

    16 Q. And could you put a mark there to show us

    17 where you first saw Zoran Kupreskic enter the room?

    18 A. Yes, I can. Here.

    19 Q. Now, from your position at the doorway of

    20 your room, did you have a clear and unobstructed view

    21 of the man, Zoran Kupreskic, as he entered your room --

    22 or entered the living-room?

    23 A. Yes, completely clear. No impediments. Just

    24 as we're sitting here and I can see you all. Quite

    25 clear air space. Nothing to cloud vision.

  28. 1Q. Did you look at this man's face as he entered

    2 the room?

    3 A. All -- I looked at him completely. I could

    4 see him all -- I could see the black where paint --

    5 with the marker across his forehead, his nose, his

    6 face, but I could see his eyes and I knew exactly that

    7 it was Zoran Kupreskic. His forehead, his hair, it was

    8 him, my neighbour.

    9 Q. How far away were you from him when you first

    10 saw him as he entered the room? And you can perhaps

    11 use me as a reference. If you look at me, and if you

    12 could tell us whether you were closer to him than I am

    13 to you or further away.

    14 A. A little further. About that far. Up by the

    15 table behind you, about there. The table behind you.

    16 About that far. Yes, that table. That was more or

    17 less the distance. That was the distance more or

    18 less.

    19 JUDGE MAY: We need to get that for the

    20 record.

    21 MR. MOSKOWITZ: For the record?

    22 JUDGE MAY: Yes, what that distance is.

    23 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I believe I was standing in

    24 front of the table now occupied by Mr. Pavkovic.

    25 JUDGE MAY: What's that in terms of metres?

  29. 1MR. MOSKOWITZ: I'm not very good in

    2 estimating metres.

    3 A. About four metres, in my opinion.

    4 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Now, you say that Zoran--

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Radovic? Sorry.

    6 MR. RADOVIC: Your Honour, perhaps we could

    7 measure in steps, measure the distance in steps so that

    8 we have a more exact notion, because we know how much a

    9 male step is, it is 75 centimetres.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. This can be done

    11 maybe later on.


    13 Q. Were the lights on in the room at the time

    14 you saw Zoran Kupreskic enter the room?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. You say that Zoran Kupreskic had some black

    17 paint on his face. Could you describe what that looked

    18 like?

    19 A. Yes, I can. Across his forehead here, as if

    20 somebody had drawn a line but with a black felt-tipped

    21 pen, over his nose, as well along his chin. He made

    22 himself look like that. He was masked in that way so

    23 that you couldn't notice immediately who somebody was

    24 if they had this paint.

    25 Q. Did you know immediately who this person was

  30. 1when you saw him?

    2 A. Yes, I did, immediately, from the very first

    3 time I laid eyes on him. I looked at him and I saw

    4 that it was Zoran and his brother Mirjan.

    5 Q. Let's stay with Zoran for a moment. How

    6 could you be so sure that this was Zoran when you first

    7 saw him as he came into the room?

    8 A. How could I not be sure. I know the child

    9 since his birth. I knew him even before he was born.

    10 I know his face, his shape, the shape of the man.

    11 Q. Now, tell us what you saw Zoran Kupreskic do

    12 after he entered the room?

    13 A. Well, his rifle was aimed. When he entered

    14 the room he saw Naser, and he shot Naser immediately.

    15 Q. Was Naser still standing, to the best of your

    16 recollection, by the table when he was shot?

    17 A. No. I apologise, but let me say this

    18 truthfully. A moment ago I described the same thing,

    19 the same situation when he entered the room and how he

    20 killed everybody in the room. And if I may say, I

    21 don't want to have to repeat this again, this incident

    22 again. I think I explained what he did and how he

    23 entered the room.

    24 If you want me to describe his entry into the

    25 room again and the killing of all of us; he entered, he

  31. 1was at the door, the lights were on at that moment. He

    2 saw Naser, immediately, standing up. He shot Naser

    3 down immediately. And at the same time he also shot my

    4 daughter-in-law Zehrudina, and at the same time went on

    5 to put some flammable liquid on the couch and there was

    6 a fire. He killed Elvis, at the same time, on the

    7 couch up here.

    8 I dropped down to the floor, and I knocked my

    9 head against the wall, and the lower part of my body

    10 was in front of him. He stood there and he shot at me

    11 through the arm of the couch, and luckily I was not

    12 hit. I think that the rifle butt was slightly up

    13 higher so that the bullets missed me and went behind my

    14 back.

    15 After that, they left --

    16 Q. Mr. Ahmic, may I interrupt? I know this is

    17 quite difficult for you to talk about it, but it is

    18 important for the Tribunal to hear what happened in

    19 some detail, and we need to, I'm afraid, take you

    20 through it slowly and carefully. And I know that is

    21 difficult. If you need a rest or some time, please say

    22 so and I will request the Tribunal if they would grant

    23 that for you. We are near the lunch-hour.

    24 A. No. I don't need a rest. Let us continue

    25 with our work. I don't know how clear everything has

  32. 1been to you from what I have said so far. Do I need to

    2 repeat anything, the same things all over again?

    3 Q. I will need to ask you some detailed

    4 questions about what you saw in the room that day, and

    5 I will have to ask you to repeat a little bit.

    6 A. Very well.

    7 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Mr. President, we're going to

    8 be going into some detail now and this may take a

    9 little while.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Let us adjourn now

    11 until 2.00.

    12 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.27 p.m.

    13 --- On resuming at 2.03 p.m.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon. While we are

    15 waiting for the witness, let me tell you that I have

    16 just received from Mr. Bauduin, the head of the Victims

    17 and Witnesses Unit, who has thus confirmed once again

    18 to be extremely competent and efficient, a copy of the

    19 medical report and a covering letter from Mr. Bauduin

    20 himself. I will now ask that photocopies should be

    21 made and a copy given to both parties, and then later

    22 on, we will come back to this issue.

    23 (The witness entered)

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon, Mr. Ahmic.

    25 You may be seated.

  33. 1THE WITNESS: Good afternoon. Thank you.

    2 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Mr. President, may I

    3 proceed?

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, please.


    6 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Ahmic. If --

    7 A. Good afternoon.

    8 Q. Yes. If, during the course of the afternoon,

    9 you feel the need for a rest, please let me know and I

    10 will ask the Tribunal if you can take a rest. I know

    11 this is tiring for you.

    12 A. Thank you.

    13 Q. Now, we left off this morning at the point of

    14 going in step-by-step detail, to the best of your

    15 recollection, of what happened in your house on April

    16 16, 1995. Just to retrace our steps a bit so we can

    17 begin, could you look at the exhibit in front of you,

    18 which is the schematic of your house, and tell us again

    19 where you were standing when you first saw Zoran

    20 Kupreskic come into the house? If you could use your

    21 pointer, please?

    22 A. Here. This is it. This is where I was at

    23 the moment that Zoran Kupreskic entered (indicating).

    24 Q. We're just going to stay now with Zoran

    25 Kupreskic and follow him the best we can through your

  34. 1testimony and your recollection. Where was Zoran

    2 Kupreskic when you first saw him enter the house?

    3 A. Here, at the door leading to the room

    4 (indicating).

    5 Q. Now, what did you see first Zoran Kupreskic

    6 do as he entered the room?

    7 A. He looked around the room, he saw Naser

    8 standing, and he opened fire at him.

    9 Q. Did you see this yourself?

    10 A. I myself saw that from here (indicating).

    11 Q. What did you see Zoran Kupreskic do after he

    12 fired at Naser, your son?

    13 A. I saw him turning towards my daughter-in-law

    14 and opening fire on my daughter-in-law.

    15 Q. Did you see that yourself?

    16 A. I myself saw that.

    17 Q. Tell us what then did you see Zoran Kupreskic

    18 do after he fired at your daughter-in-law?

    19 A. At that moment, he headed in this direction

    20 (indicating). I fell for a moment --

    21 Q. Let me stop you there before you describe

    22 what you did. Did you remain standing in the doorway

    23 while Zoran Kupreskic shot your son Naser?

    24 A. Yes, I was in the doorway.

    25 Q. Did you remain standing in the doorway when

  35. 1you saw Zoran Kupreskic shoot at your daughter-in-law?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Now, after you saw Zoran Kupreskic fire at

    4 your daughter-in-law, did you see Zoran Kupreskic make

    5 any move or movement?

    6 A. I saw him move towards me and Elvis.

    7 Q. Move towards you and Elvis?

    8 A. Yes, yes. And for a moment, I lost control

    9 and fell.

    10 Q. Let's stop there for a moment. Before you

    11 lost control and fell, I want you to now backtrack just

    12 a moment and tell us whether you saw another individual

    13 enter the room that day.

    14 A. Yes, yes. At the same time, when Zoran came

    15 in, immediately after him came Mirjan.

    16 Q. Were you able to observe and look at Mirjan

    17 Kupreskic's face as he came into the room?

    18 A. I looked at him in a haze because I was

    19 focusing on Zoran.

    20 Q. Did you recognise Mirjan Kupreskic when he

    21 came into the room?

    22 A. I did. Yes, I recognised him. I'm quite

    23 sure of that. I recognised both Zoran and Mirjan.

    24 Q. Could you tell what Mirjan did as he entered

    25 the room?

  36. 1A. He poured liquid from a small bottle onto

    2 this couch here (indicating) and he set it on fire.

    3 Q. Were Mirjan and Zoran close together in the

    4 room so that you could observe both of them at the same

    5 time?

    6 A. At the same time came Mirjan, just after

    7 Zoran. One after the other they entered.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Radovic?

    9 MR. RADOVIC: We are again on the verge of

    10 leading questions because the question was whether the

    11 two of them were close enough for the witness to be

    12 able to observe them at the same time. This means

    13 suggesting the answer to the witness to say, yes, they

    14 were close to one another. The real question would

    15 have been: Where were the two of them in the room, if

    16 I may put it that way? So I would suggest that the

    17 Prosecutor be asked to rephrase the question.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Thank you,

    19 Mr. Radovic.

    20 Yes, Mr. Moskowitz, could you please rephrase

    21 your question?

    22 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes, Your Honour.

    23 Q. I believe you have already indicated, with

    24 your pointer, where Mirjan was as you observed him, but

    25 could you do that again for us so we can have an idea

  37. 1of his, that is Mirjan's, presence in the room, as you

    2 observed it?

    3 A. Yes, I can. At the same time as Zoran

    4 entered the house, at the same time Mirjan followed him

    5 in, which means that Zoran, seeing Naser standing,

    6 fired at him immediately. At the same time, Mirjan was

    7 throwing or pouring this liquid over this couch and

    8 setting it on fire. So that I could easily see both of

    9 them from my vantage point.

    10 Q. Do you have any doubt whatsoever that the

    11 people you saw in your house that day were Zoran and

    12 Mirjan Kupreskic?

    13 A. They were those persons, 100 per cent.

    14 Q. Now, you told us that after Zoran shot your

    15 daughter-in-law, he made a move towards you and Elvis.

    16 Could you tell us what happened to you as Zoran came

    17 towards you?

    18 A. At that moment, I lost control and I fell and

    19 hit my head against the wall.

    20 Q. I can see you're pointing with the pointer,

    21 but for the record, could you tell us where you recall

    22 falling and hitting your head?

    23 A. Right here (indicating), next to the couch

    24 and the wall. Right here in this corner.

    25 Q. Could you put a line where you fell so that

  38. 1we can refer to it later in the record, using that

    2 marker in front of you with the assistance of the

    3 usher?

    4 A. (Marks)

    5 Q. While you have the marker in your hand, for

    6 clarity, could you put the letter Z where Zoran was

    7 when you saw him first enter the room?

    8 A. (Marks)

    9 Q. And could you put the letter M where you

    10 observed Mirjan Kupreskic lighting a fire?

    11 A. Yes. Here, roughly. (Marks)

    12 Q. Now, you indicated you fell against or near

    13 the bed that Elvis was sleeping in. Where was your

    14 head and where were your feet?

    15 A. Yes. Shall I mark it with the marker?

    16 Q. I think you can use the pointer and just

    17 describe.

    18 A. This is where my head was and my legs were

    19 here (indicating).

    20 Q. So your head was near the wall and your legs

    21 were closer to the table?

    22 A. Yes, my head was right against the wall, yes.

    23 Q. Now, when you fell, I think you said you lost

    24 control. What do you mean by that?

    25 A. I think that very moment I had a heart

  39. 1attack, that second between life and death. I don't

    2 know myself how to put it.

    3 Q. Do you think you lost consciousness for a

    4 moment?

    5 A. For a moment, I'm sure I lost everything.

    6 Q. Once you fell, could you see anything at that

    7 point?

    8 A. No.

    9 Q. Could you hear anything?

    10 A. Yes. I heard shots.

    11 Q. Could you tell where those shots, whether

    12 they were near you or far away from you?

    13 A. Closer to me, and I could feel the casings

    14 falling on my right arm.

    15 Q. What do you remember hearing next?

    16 A. I heard shots.

    17 Q. And then what did you hear?

    18 A. I heard the baby crying.

    19 Q. Is this Sejo?

    20 A. Yes, the late Sejo. He was crying. I heard

    21 him and I heard a burst of fire after that, and then it

    22 was all over.

    23 Q. Did you hear the baby crying after the shots

    24 stopped?

    25 A. No. I heard -- the last thing I heard was a

  40. 1sigh by my late daughter-in-law in that room while the

    2 house was in flames.

    3 Q. Could you tell us what you remember doing

    4 after you heard the baby cry, then the shots, and then

    5 silence? What is the next thing you did?

    6 A. I got up, I got to my feet. Once I got up, I

    7 cast a glance at late Naser, who was lying here

    8 (indicating). I saw a big pool of blood in front of

    9 his chest.

    10 Q. Did you go to him? Did you go to your son?

    11 A. No, no. When I got to my feet, I saw Naser

    12 lying in this pool of blood around his chest, and then

    13 I went to my room, to this window (indicating).

    14 Q. Now, while you were lying behind the couch,

    15 did you get the feeling or the sense that shots were

    16 being fired at you?

    17 A. Yes, yes, precisely. There were shots,

    18 bursts of fire, one, two, three bursts, I could feel

    19 that they were in my direction, and I felt the casings

    20 hitting my right arm. I didn't see that, but that is

    21 what I felt.

    22 Q. How, in your view, was it possible for you

    23 not to have been struck by any of those bullets?

    24 A. My assumption is that this was because I was

    25 leaning against the couch, my head was turned this way,

  41. 1and so I assumed that the barrel of his rifle was not

    2 pointed accurately so that the bullets went over my

    3 back, which means -- and that is what I always

    4 thought -- that if only his barrel had been pointed

    5 further down, he would have hit me. Those are my

    6 assumptions. That was what I assumed then and later,

    7 and to this day, that is my conviction, that that is

    8 how it happened.

    9 MR. MOSKOWITZ: May I ask the usher to show

    10 the next exhibit, please?

    11 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 153.


    13 Q. Now, Mr. Ahmic --

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. -- depicted in this photograph is a sofa or a

    16 couch.

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Now, this is not the couch that was in your

    19 house at that time, is it?

    20 A. No, no, no. That is not the couch that was

    21 in my house, but it was rather like the couch I had in

    22 my house.

    23 Q. How is it similar and how is it different?

    24 A. The difference is that this couch that you

    25 see now, it is lying on the floor. The couch we had,

  42. 1it had legs. So that is one difference. And also my

    2 couch was a folding one. I don't know whether this one

    3 unfolds or not. I don't know.

    4 Q. I think you testified earlier that the couch

    5 in your house was actually folded out into a bed, and

    6 this one isn't, so that would be another difference?

    7 A. I didn't quite understand your question, I

    8 think. At that moment, the couch was folded out

    9 because the child was sleeping on it.

    10 Q. Could you look at the arm of this couch and

    11 tell us whether that was similar to the couch you had

    12 in your house?

    13 A. Similar, yes, it is similar to the one we had

    14 in our house. This too has an armrest like ours had.

    15 Q. There's a person lying there. Was that

    16 similar to the way you were lying beside the couch in

    17 April of '93?

    18 A. Yes, it's similar.

    19 Q. Could you explain, using this photograph

    20 perhaps to illustrate your testimony, how you believe

    21 the machine gun bullets missed you that day?

    22 A. They missed me because of the reasons I

    23 mentioned a moment ago. He was shooting through the

    24 armrest, but I assume that his rifle was tilted and the

    25 bullets went over me. If it had been lower down, it

  43. 1would have killed me and I wouldn't be here today.

    2 Q. Thank you. Now, do you recall how Mirjan and

    3 Zoran Kupreskic were dressed that morning when they

    4 were in your house?

    5 A. In black uniforms.

    6 Q. Do you recall seeing any weapons?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Who had the weapon? Zoran, Mirjan, or did

    9 they both have weapons?

    10 A. I saw the weapon in Zoran's hands. I didn't

    11 really pay attention to Mirjan. I saw him come in, but

    12 I didn't pay attention to him so much. I was focusing

    13 my view on Zoran.

    14 Q. Did you focus on the kind of weapon that

    15 Zoran had?

    16 A. At that moment, I saw that it was a smaller

    17 rifle with a transparent drum with bullets inside.

    18 That is the impression I had that moment.

    19 Q. Are you certain that that was the kind of

    20 rifle he had?

    21 A. I'm not sure because I wasn't really

    22 looking. I wasn't interested in the weapon. I was

    23 interested in the person that I was looking at, the

    24 perpetrators who were doing this.

    25 Q. Now, you said that after you got up from the

  44. 1area near Elvis's bed, you did not go to your son's

    2 body. Where did you go?

    3 A. I went to my room, to the window of my room.

    4 Q. Why did you go there?

    5 A. I thought to myself that I should try and

    6 jump out. I opened the right-hand pane of the window

    7 and I thought I should jump out and look for a way to

    8 save my life. However, when I saw Vlatko Kupreskic in

    9 the yard, a HVO fighter, combatant, I was afraid to

    10 jump out because I thought they'd catch me alive.

    11 MR. MOSKOWITZ: May I ask the usher to show

    12 the witness the next exhibit, please.

    13 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 154.


    15 Q. Now, Mr. Ahmic, could you look at the

    16 photograph placed on the ELMO machine next to you,

    17 Exhibit 154? Could you tell us what that photograph

    18 shows?

    19 A. Yes, I can. This is the house -- this is my

    20 house, and here is shown the lower level, and here on

    21 the upper level there's one room and the other room.

    22 That is the windows of one and then the other rooms.

    23 Q. Now, you said that you re-entered your room

    24 and looked out of the window. Does this photograph

    25 show at least part of the window that you're referring

  45. 1to?

    2 A. Yes. It is this window and this part of the

    3 window, to the right.

    4 Q. What does that window overlook?

    5 A. It looks over to the house of both Vlatko and

    6 Zoran Kupreskic. And I can also see Mirjan's house

    7 over there.

    8 Q. Could you tell us what you saw when you

    9 re-entered your room and looked out of that window?

    10 A. I saw a soldier in Vlatko Kupreskic's yard.

    11 Q. Did you then proceed to climb out of the

    12 window to make your escape, or did you remain in the

    13 room?

    14 A. No. When I saw the soldier there, I stayed

    15 in this room because I did not dare. I was afraid that

    16 they would see me, that they would catch me alive, and

    17 then that they would torture me, they would then burn

    18 me like they burned my entire family. That was going

    19 through my mind.

    20 Q. What was going on in the rest of your house

    21 while you stood at the window and had to decide how to

    22 escape?

    23 A. I heard a deep sigh of my daughter-in-law,

    24 and that was her last moment. And she was burning, she

    25 was engulfed in flames. Everything was in flames. The

  46. 1hall, living-room where all of them were lying, those

    2 members of my family who were killed.

    3 Q. Could you feel the heat from those flames

    4 while you were in your room?

    5 A. I felt tremendous heat and fire. My only --

    6 the only thing that was helping was that the window had

    7 been open and so there was some air, but I constantly

    8 was thinking whether to jump out. But what I thought is

    9 if I jumped out and I would be killed that would be

    10 fine, but I did not want them to capture me and torture

    11 me. So what I eventually decided to do was to move

    12 from the house to the barn.

    13 And then I heard somebody shouting, "Jure,

    14 Jure." This was coming from Hrast's house, I assumed

    15 that Jure was calling back from the old oak tree which

    16 was dead, and he was saying, "Don't shoot, it's me." I

    17 assumed and I still think now that these were the two

    18 bothers, Gavrilo Verbac and his brother Jure, which

    19 means that Gavrilo was near Cico Hirica's house near my

    20 house, and that his brother was over at the Suhi

    21 Hrast.

    22 Q. Now, Mr. Ahmic, you heard this while you were

    23 in your room?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Now, could you tell us at what point you

  47. 1decided to make your escape from the house?

    2 A. I made the decision when I could no longer

    3 stand the heat of the flames and fire. The flames were

    4 going towards the lighting fixture, and it was as if

    5 somebody was sawing it through the ceiling. It started

    6 caving in, and the door from my room to the living-room

    7 was already burned through, and as well as the flames

    8 started coming through the window. So I could not

    9 stand that any more.

    10 I decided to run out of the house. I still

    11 had it if my mind that they may not see me. There was

    12 a Cypress tree in front of my house which blocked the

    13 view to Vlatko's house, and then I also had some

    14 construction supplies, I had cinder blocks, and that

    15 was also protecting me from view from Vlatko's house.

    16 There was also a barn there.

    17 So I managed to get to the door of the barn.

    18 I climbed up the ladder, I went to the far end of the

    19 barn, and I went and stayed against the wall of this

    20 barn or hayloft.

    21 Q. Mr. Ahmic, before we get to the barn --

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. -- could you tell us what exit you used to

    24 leave the house?

    25 A. Through the flames. Through the kitchen to

  48. 1the veranda, the front door and in the direction of the

    2 barn.

    3 Q. Am I right then in assuming that you ran

    4 through the fire in the living-room, or in the main

    5 room in the house?

    6 A. That's how I said. Maybe you didn't

    7 understand me. That's how I said. From my room I ran

    8 through the living-room where all the children were

    9 killed. I went through the living-room to the door

    10 where Zoran first appeared, and then through the

    11 veranda, main -- front door and to the barn. So I did

    12 run through the whole house. You may not have

    13 understood me.

    14 Q. Did you suffer any injuries by running

    15 through the fire?

    16 A. It was already in -- back in the room where I

    17 sustained burns, terrible burns, because I was there as

    18 long as I could withstand. But when it was a question

    19 of life or death, I decided to run through the fire and

    20 seek shelter up in the barn.

    21 Q. Could you describe for us, as best you can

    22 now, what kind of injuries and where those injuries

    23 were on your body?

    24 A. I was singed all over, my head, my arms, my

    25 hands, my face. I was exhausted.

  49. 1Q. Now, before you made your escape from the

    2 house, while you were still in your room, I believe you

    3 told us you heard a conversation, and you also saw a

    4 HVO soldier. Do you recall seeing anything or anyone

    5 else at that time?

    6 A. I heard the conversation while I was in the

    7 barn when they were letting out the livestock from the

    8 barn, the HVO soldiers did not have any conversation in

    9 the house. There was nothing except for the exchange

    10 between Zoran and Mirjan.

    11 It was when I was in the barn, when two

    12 soldiers came whom I had not seen when they entered the

    13 barn, but I just heard their conversation. He said

    14 this, when they were letting out the cows, he said,

    15 "Don't let the cows go into the garden, let them go

    16 down towards the road." So they broke the fence to my

    17 property, and they went into Vlatko Kupreskic's yard.

    18 But I really did not see who those soldiers were

    19 because they had their backs to me. So I could not see

    20 them.

    21 Q. Now, you mentioned the barn.

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Whose barn was that and where was that it

    24 located in relation to your house?

    25 A. At the entrance to my yard, in front of the

  50. 1late Sukrija's house, and it was to the right when you

    2 entered my yard. So it was the right in my yard, and

    3 to the right of my house.

    4 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I would at this time ask the

    5 usher to show the next exhibit, please.

    6 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 155.

    7 MR. MOSKOWITZ: And for information for the

    8 Court, this exhibit was also taken by British soldiers

    9 on the day of the event.

    10 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Moskowitz, do you know when

    11 these photographs were taken?

    12 MR. MOSKOWITZ: We will have a British

    13 witness come in and give you the precise time or as

    14 best as he can estimate, but my recollection, standing

    15 here now, that it was sometime in the early afternoon,

    16 perhaps 1.00 or 2.00, maybe a little later, maybe

    17 earlier. It's not totally clear.

    18 Q. Now, Mr. Ahmic, could you look at the Exhibit

    19 155, which is a photograph in front of you, and could

    20 you tell us what that shows?

    21 A. Yes, I can. This here shows the house of the

    22 late Sukrija Ahmic. Here is the construction supplies,

    23 the roof tiles, then the firewood. Also, chopped wood

    24 pile here. This is the barn where I was staying, and

    25 it was here where I was staying, and then farther down

  51. 1is the house. This is the house, part of it.

    2 Q. Now, you pointed, I think, quite briefly to

    3 where you were staying, or where you were on April 16,

    4 '93 when you left your house. Could you point again

    5 for us where you recall being on that day?

    6 A. Yes, of course. I can do it 100 per cent. I

    7 know exactly what I know. I was here exactly. This is

    8 the wall, and it was against this wall. You see that

    9 there's some netting here. This is the protective

    10 netting for the construction material. What you see

    11 red and yellow, that's the flames.

    12 I was here at this corner exactly. And you

    13 see that right at this time that the barn is still on

    14 fire. At this time I was here.

    15 Q. Could you describe how you placed yourself in

    16 that barn?

    17 A. Yes, I can. When I entered the barn, I was

    18 here under the hay. I was lying there. And from there

    19 I really did have a good view both down and over to one

    20 side, the other side, everywhere. There were boards

    21 and there were cracks between boards. And from the

    22 barn -- while I was there in the barn, the soldiers

    23 arrive. They let the cows out, then they left after

    24 them. They went to Vlatko's yard.

    25 While I was in the barn (redacted). I

  52. 1was looking from here. He was carrying someone, but

    2 there was a stretcher. He was in front and two persons

    3 in the back, and there was a wounded person on the

    4 stretcher. They went down -- they went up to the

    5 mosque in Upper Ahmici. That was one.

    6 And then secondly, Eso Ahmic's wife passed

    7 through with three children, with a bag on her -- slung

    8 over her back, and then in the direction of Sukrija's

    9 house, this is where Sukrija was killed. She was

    10 pointing to the children to look at Sukrija as they

    11 were going up there, and then I was observing from the

    12 same position.

    13 Franjo Kupreskic came. He came out to the

    14 yard and he was letting the chickens out. And then

    15 Nikica Safradin, called Cico, arrived, and this was

    16 towards Franjo, below my house. And Franjo stopped him

    17 and said, "Go over and see what happened in Sakib's

    18 house." And I was listening to all of that from

    19 there.

    20 Cico went back to the entrance of my house.

    21 He couldn't see anything. He could just see -- just a

    22 big fire burning there. Then Cico went back to Franjo,

    23 and Franjo he said, "What did you see there?" He said

    24 in raised voice, "There's nothing. Everybody's

    25 croaked." And I'm thinking to myself not everybody's

  53. 1croaked. You don't know that Sakib is watching you. I

    2 was listening with my own ears, but I was not in a

    3 position to do anything there.

    4 Four or five young men came up the path while

    5 I was still there. They came(redacted)

    6 (redacted) and they went through this

    7 thicket or grove, and as they passed through there was

    8 a burst of fire and these young men were just mowed

    9 down by it. Three soldiers came out of Vlatko's

    10 house. They came to the asphalt road, to those young

    11 men over there. They looked -- they patted them over

    12 and then all three soldiers went down back towards

    13 Vlatko's house.

    14 Following that --

    15 Q. Mr. Ahmic, before you continue, let me ask a

    16 couple of clarification questions and then you may

    17 continue.

    18 A. Very well.

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 Q. And you mentioned that he was carrying

  54. 1something. I wasn't all that clear on what you were

    2 saying. Could you describe what you (redacted)

    3 carrying?

    4 A. Oh, that's right. Now I understood your

    5 question. First I did not understand it.

    6 I saw (redacted), from the barn,

    7 as he was walking down the road and was carrying a

    8 stretcher. He was in front and he was carrying the

    9 stretcher, and there were two persons behind him, and

    10 each of these two persons were holding one of the

    11 handles of the stretcher, and they were carrying a

    12 wounded person. I don't know who this person was. I

    13 don't even know who those two persons were in the back,

    14 but I recognised (redacted)

    15 And they went in the direction of the mosque

    16 in upper Ahmici.

    17 Q. All right. Now, you also mentioned someone

    18 pointing at Sukrija's house. First of all, could you

    19 see, from --

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. -- your position in the barn, Sukrija's

    22 house?

    23 A. Yes. It was right in front of me. Sukrija's

    24 house was right there. Sukrija's house is right next

    25 to the barn. See, this is Sukrija's house, and this is

  55. 1the barn in which I was. I was here at this corner. I

    2 could see everything. Of course, I could see all of

    3 this.

    4 Q. Could you see --

    5 A. I could see up front and to all sides I could

    6 see from this barn.

    7 Q. Could you see any bodies nearby?

    8 A. Near the barn?

    9 Q. From your position in the barn, looking out,

    10 near your son's home, could you see any bodies?

    11 A. No. From the barn, from here, I could not

    12 see the body -- the late Sukrija's body. I didn't even

    13 know that he was lying there, that he had been killed

    14 there. It was only the following day when I was

    15 fleeing for my life that I saw him there. And I

    16 tried -- he was sort of bent, and I tried to straighten

    17 him out. But then I realised that I could not do it,

    18 and -- because I needed to save my life. I went on in

    19 the direction of Pirici.

    20 Q. Now, Mr. Ahmic. You indicated that you saw

    21 someone looking at or pointing at the house of

    22 Sukrija. Could you tell us who that was if you know?

    23 A. Yes, yes. I know exactly. It is my nephew's

    24 Eso's wife. She came from up there by Vlatko's house,

    25 then by Sukrija and my house, and at Sukrija's house

  56. 1she saw the late Sukrija's body and she was pointing it

    2 to the children. She was pointing at the body to

    3 them. This is what I could see.

    4 Q. At the time you saw her pointing at a body or

    5 somebody, you did not know at that time that she was

    6 looking at the body of your son, Sukrija?

    7 A. No, no, I did not know what she was pointing

    8 at, what she was observing there. I did not know what

    9 she was pointing at. But later on, when I saw the dead

    10 body of Sukrija, then I put these two things together.

    11 Q. Now, I think you also said that you saw or

    12 heard a burst of fire that appeared to strike some

    13 men. Could you tell us where that fire came from, if

    14 you can?

    15 A. Yes, I can. When the young men came from

    16 Vlatko's house, the shot rang from that area of

    17 Vlatko's house, and those three Croat soldiers went

    18 from Vlatko's house to where those young men were

    19 killed and then later on went back to Vlatko's house.

    20 Q. Could you recognise any of those soldiers

    21 that came from Vlatko's house?

    22 A. No, no, I could not.

    23 Q. What do you recall happening in addition,

    24 while you were in the barn?

    25 A. Two armoured vehicles came, two tanks. They

  57. 1came from the main road up to Ahmici. One tank went in

    2 front of the house of Ivica Kupreskic, into his yard,

    3 and the other one came to the entrance -- to the gate

    4 of my yard, and it came to a stop here (indicating).

    5 So this tank came to a stop here. It was sitting right

    6 there, where this sand is, and I was here behind this

    7 wall. I may have been four to five metres away from

    8 it, from this tank which was standing there.

    9 When the tank came to a stop there, the

    10 turret lid opened and a soldier emerged from the tank.

    11 He looked around and went back down in. He lowered the

    12 lid. The tank, which was in Ivica Kupreskic's yard,

    13 joined him, and started in the direction of Ahmici.

    14 This tank followed it, and they went in the direction

    15 of Gornji Ahmici, Upper Ahmici.

    16 Q. Mr. Ahmic, while the tank was parked in front

    17 of your barn, did you give some thought to perhaps

    18 leaving the barn and going to the tank and being

    19 rescued?

    20 A. Yes, I did think about that, but I wasn't 100

    21 per cent sure that they would take me in, that they

    22 would take me into the tank, and so I was afraid that

    23 they wouldn't take me into the vehicle and that the

    24 people around Vlatko's house would see me, or from any

    25 other side, and that they would kill me. I did not

  58. 1have the strength to make up my mind and so I stayed.

    2 I had to rely on myself.

    3 The tanks left Upper Ahmici. They did not

    4 stay in the yard a long time. They returned. But at

    5 that time, while the tanks were here, everything was

    6 calm. There was no shooting whatsoever during that

    7 time. I couldn't hear any firing.

    8 When the tank went back to Ahmici and towards

    9 the main road and went along to Vitez and came in the

    10 vicinity of Pican's cafe, then firing began from all

    11 types of weapons, and then it was calm again. So it

    12 was a sort of platoon -- a gun blast, and then there

    13 was silence again, and nothing else could be heard. No

    14 gunfire could be heard after that burst, outburst.

    15 I heard the honk of a horn in front of Vlatko

    16 Kupreskic's house, and I also heard the siren from

    17 Ivica Kupreskic's car, and then the municipal siren

    18 could be heard, the fire alarm siren, and at that time,

    19 I thought to myself that the emergency warning siren

    20 was going on because of the successful action drive to

    21 kill and massacre the people in the vicinity of Ahmici.

    22 Q. Now, you said that while the tanks were there

    23 or while you had them in sight, the shooting had

    24 stopped. Had you heard any kind of --

    25 A. Yes, that's right.

  59. 1Q. Had you heard any kind of shooting or firing

    2 before the tanks arrived?

    3 A. Yes, yes, there was shooting before that.

    4 Until the tanks arrived, shooting could be heard

    5 sporadically, but once the tanks got there,

    6 silence reigned and no gunfire was heard anywhere.

    7 When the tanks returned, as I described earlier on,

    8 when they were near Pican's cafe, in my opinion there

    9 was a general burst of gunfire from all types of

    10 weaponry, and then once again silence reigned.

    11 The siren could be heard from Vlatko

    12 Kupreskic's house and Ivica Kupreskic's house and the

    13 emergency warning siren from the municipality could be

    14 heard for the fire brigade in the municipality of

    15 Vitez, and what I thought at that moment, that this was

    16 probably to celebrate the successful drive of the

    17 massacre in the Ahmici region. That is what I think

    18 today that it was. It was a celebration.

    19 Q. Now, after the tanks left, were you able to

    20 observe or see anyone that you could recognise?

    21 A. I can't quite remember at this moment.

    22 Q. Let me ask you this: Do you recall at what

    23 point you left the barn and why you left the barn?

    24 A. I can't say when I left the barn, at what

    25 particular moment I left the barn, but I can say why I

  60. 1left the barn.

    2 I did not see but I felt in the barn that

    3 something hit, the sound of a hit. I had in the barn

    4 two tyres, two tyres belonging to a passenger vehicle

    5 at the entrance to the barn, and I heard this tyre hit

    6 the ground, and so I thought that somebody was in the

    7 barn, so I was even afraid to draw a breath and I

    8 couldn't see, but that's what I felt, that somebody was

    9 there. I heard some crackling, a crackling noise, and

    10 I felt that something had been set alight to. And that

    11 was what happened, in fact. I could smell the smell of

    12 smoke, and it was the barn crackling, and I had to

    13 think quickly what to do because the barn would go up

    14 in flames.

    15 I tried very slowly, very silently, to creep

    16 up and look above the surface of the hay, beyond the

    17 hay, to see if there was anybody inside. I did not see

    18 anybody. I just even -- above or below the barn, and

    19 then I thought, what shall I do next? Shall I go

    20 through the barn and then down to take the forks, the

    21 hay forks, for manure and so on and then get out that

    22 way and to sort of make a hole, burrow a hole through

    23 that fertiliser and to mask myself, to camouflage

    24 myself with the manure there, with the fertiliser. I

    25 had to think quickly. I thought that while I would be

  61. 1doing this and getting out of the barn and downwards,

    2 that a soldier would appear, Croatian soldier might

    3 appear, so that I felt it safer not to disclose my

    4 whereabouts, that there was somebody there.

    5 I knew that I could take a log off here from

    6 the barn, and I decided to take a log away, a board, a

    7 plank, and to place it on the hay but very, very

    8 silently, no noise, because I didn't know if anybody

    9 was in the barn or out around the barn. I had rubber

    10 soles and so on.

    11 What I did was I took off one of the planks.

    12 I got hold -- I jumped down into the fertiliser,

    13 manure, and then I went to this stack of logs here,

    14 this log pile, firewood, and this particular stack here

    15 (indicating) goes right up towards -- right up one

    16 metre up by Sukrija's house, and in that space with the

    17 stack of firewood, during the winter when they would

    18 take firewood into the house for heating, there was a

    19 hole left from the wood they had taken. I sat there, I

    20 hid myself there, and there were two parts of -- top

    21 parts of vehicles, passenger cars, the hub, and I took

    22 away some of the logs so I had -- on three sides I was

    23 protected by the logs and the firewood and on one side

    24 I was protected by the bonnet of these cars, and that's

    25 where I spent the whole day and the whole night, up

  62. 1until about 4.00 in the morning.

    2 During that time, if I can continue? Do you

    3 want me to continue my story, my recollection of what

    4 happened?

    5 Q. Yes, but can I ask a couple of clarification

    6 questions first?

    7 A. Yes, you can.

    8 Q. Could you see, once you left the barn, the

    9 body of your son Sukrija?

    10 A. No, I did not. Well -- no, because I went to

    11 hide myself amongst the wood, the logs. No, I did not

    12 see his body.

    13 Q. Do you recall how long you stayed in the

    14 woodpile hiding?

    15 A. Yes. The whole day. I was there the whole

    16 day and the whole night.

    17 Q. Could you describe for us what your physical

    18 condition was during that time period?

    19 A. I was in a terrible state, it was terrible,

    20 because I was all burnt, I had no socks on, I had not

    21 much clothing. I was in my pyjamas. It's difficult to

    22 describe. I was almost naked. Only in my pyjamas, no

    23 socks on my feet. I just had a sort of raincoat to

    24 protect myself from the fire and from the heat. That's

    25 all I had on me.

  63. 1Q. When did you leave the pile, the woodpile?

    2 A. I left the woodpile in the morning, sometime

    3 in the morning on the 17th of April. About 4.00 in the

    4 morning.

    5 Q. As you left the woodpile, could you see

    6 anything, any bodies?

    7 A. Yes. When I decided to move and that I

    8 couldn't stay in the woodpile any longer, that I

    9 couldn't make any presence known and that I had to do

    10 this during the night, during the dark. When I left

    11 the woodpile, I saw the car of Sukrija, the late

    12 Sukrija, in front of his workshop, and his body was

    13 lying in front of the car, somewhere here (indicating),

    14 in the direction of that tree. That is where the road

    15 is. He was lying there near the tree, near the fir

    16 tree.

    17 When I saw him, I saw that his body was

    18 turned over. There was a ditch. I passed by from the

    19 front part by his head and tried to take him up and to

    20 pull him away so that he could lie straight, but I did

    21 not have the strength to do this. I wasn't strong

    22 enough to move him, so I left him lying the way he was.

    23 Q. Could you tell us what you mean by not having

    24 the strength and tell us how you tried to move him and

    25 why it was so difficult for you?

  64. 1A. No, I couldn't move him. I wasn't able to.

    2 It was difficult because he was lying -- he wasn't

    3 lying straight. He was lying on his back. I wanted to

    4 turn him over onto his back, but my hands were burnt

    5 and I just couldn't do it, so I left him lying there as

    6 he was and continued in the direction that I have

    7 already described, that I already told you that I went,

    8 the direction that I had told myself that I would take,

    9 and this took me up to the main road and towards Redzib

    10 Ahmic's house. I passed by Redzib Ahmic's and Suad's

    11 house. When I found myself there amongst the houses,

    12 the cattle smelled me and they knew that somebody was

    13 there and they made some noise, and I think that in the

    14 barracks, the HVO barracks, they thought that this was

    15 just cattle moving about and in front of Andza

    16 Kasakic's (phoen) house, the HVO soldiers -- and when I

    17 passed through the thicket, I thought that they would

    18 fire, but as the cattle moved about throughout the

    19 night, this was better for me because they heard the

    20 livestock and the cattle and they couldn't hear me

    21 passing so I was able to pass through the thicket and

    22 emerge towards Caza on the other side.

    23 I sat down there; I had no more strength. I

    24 sat down to rest a while, and then went on some 20 or

    25 30 metres and had another rest, and once again, I

  65. 1emerged up on the plateau where there was a lot of hay,

    2 where the hay was being stacked, and I sat there and

    3 thought that I had made it because I had succeeded in

    4 emerging from the HVO encirclement.

    5 There is a little path linking up the village

    6 of Ahmici and Pirici, and I went along that path which

    7 took me to the house of my mother. I knocked on the

    8 window, and she was there, and I said, "Mother, open

    9 the door, but don't turn on the lights." My mother

    10 opened the door. I went inside. I sat down on her

    11 bed. I asked her, "Could you please light a fire as

    12 soon as possible because I'm freezing?" My mother did

    13 that; she lit a fire quickly. She made me a cup of

    14 tea. I asked her whether she had any cigarettes. She

    15 said, yes, she did, and took out a box of cigarettes

    16 and some matches and lit a cigarette for me, gave it to

    17 me, gave me a glass of tea to drink. I drank the tea,

    18 I smoked the cigarette. I don't know whether I drank

    19 all the tea or not.

    20 And then I heard a burst of gunfire. I just

    21 put the glass down on the cupboard. I went towards the

    22 window. I heard another burst of fire west of the

    23 house, some 250 metres away perhaps, and I went back

    24 into the kitchen. My mother heard the firing. "Did

    25 you hear the firing?" my mother said, "Yes. You must

  66. 1escape. If they catch you, they'll kill you," she

    2 said. She took off her socks from her own feet. I

    3 took the sock and put them on one foot and put the sock

    4 on my other foot and I left through the door and went

    5 up, upwards, and I went up towards Rifet's house, there

    6 was nobody there, and I went through the garden towards

    7 Barin Gaj, and when I went up onto the plateau in front

    8 of Barin Gaj, away from the electricity lines, poles, I

    9 stopped and turned to face Ahmici.

    10 I turned towards Zume -- the woods. I turned

    11 towards Zume, and I saw that everything that was Muslim

    12 had been burnt to the ground, and I imagined that

    13 everything below that had happened and everything that

    14 happened in my own house down there -- I had two

    15 brothers, I had a brother-in-law, my daughter, family,

    16 relatives, everybody down there; and when I saw that, I

    17 saw that there was nothing left, that there was nobody

    18 left, and I continued along the road towards Vrhovine

    19 upwards, towards Vrhovine, and upon leaving Barin Gaj,

    20 I met four or five young men, they entered Barin Gaj.

    21 They had rifles. And Vehbija Ahmic and behind them --

    22 Vehbija looked at me and he said, "Is that you,

    23 Sakib?" And I said, "Yes, it's me." "What's happening

    24 down there?" they asked. I said, "Well, the HVO

    25 soldiers came to Pirici and there was a burst of

  67. 1gunfire below my mother's house, another burst of

    2 gunfire could be heard some 200, 250 metres away, and

    3 you must go to Redzi Grehab (phoen) and one to Gavro's

    4 house, Thurma's (phoen) house, and if you can, tell

    5 them that -- to stop them, not to go up towards

    6 Vrhovine.

    7 I continued and reached the village of

    8 Vrhovine. There was nobody in the houses. I entered

    9 three houses, and there was nobody there. I went to

    10 Hadzinica and Blahum (phoen). He was called Kustre.

    11 The house was open, and there was nobody in his house

    12 either. I went to Esfre Mujezinovic. His house was

    13 open too, but there was nobody in the house either. I

    14 couldn't go any further. I just could not.

    15 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Mr. Ahmic, let me stop you

    16 there for a moment and ask the usher at this time to

    17 show the witness the next Prosecution Exhibit?

    18 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 156.


    20 Q. Now, Mr. Ahmic, could you look at the --

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Could you look at this Exhibit 156 and see if

    23 you can tell us what that shows. If you have

    24 difficulty orienting yourself, just let me know.

    25 A. I didn't understand the question.

  68. 1Q. Could you look at the exhibit in front of you

    2 on the machine and see if you can tell what that shows.

    3 A. Yes. It shows the territory around Pirici

    4 and Ahmici.

    5 Q. Do you see that circle with the 56 next to

    6 it?

    7 A. Yes, I can see the circle. I see the little

    8 circle.

    9 Q. Are you having trouble recognising that?

    10 A. No, no trouble. It's quite a clear picture.

    11 Q. Could you tell us, is that your house circled

    12 number 56?

    13 A. Yes, it is.

    14 Q. Does that white line that zigzags through

    15 that map, does that indicate the route that you took

    16 when you left Ahmici to your mother's house?

    17 A. Yes, that's precisely it.

    18 MR. RADOVIC: Your Honours, another leading

    19 question. The first is: Is the house noted number 56

    20 your house? The second leading question was: Does

    21 this route on the map, does it represent your route,

    22 the route you took? They are leading questions. The

    23 right question would be: What does circle 56

    24 represent, and can you tell us what the line, the white

    25 line represents, rather than asking leading questions.

  69. 1This is a little too much.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Radovic, I think it is

    3 very clear that the witness had already indicated on

    4 this other picture where his house was located and, of

    5 course, as for the line, I assume the Prosecutor has

    6 made this line on the picture on the basis of what the

    7 witness told him before. I don't think it's worth

    8 going into minute details. Yes, it is to some extent a

    9 leading question, but I would move on.

    10 Mr. Moskowitz?

    11 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, Mr. President.

    12 Q. Now, you mentioned Barin Gaj in your last

    13 narrative. Could you tell us what Barin Gaj is?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Not where it is, but what is it?

    16 A. It's a sort of plateau, some high ground from

    17 whence you can see the valley of Vitez below, the

    18 territory of Ahmici, Santici, and so on; and Barin Gaj,

    19 when you say Barin Gaj, it is a forest, in fact, a

    20 wood, woodland.

    21 Q. What was your physical condition as you

    22 stopped at Barin Gaj and overlooked the village of

    23 Ahmici? Had you eaten?

    24 A. No. It was a terrible experience

    25 altogether. I was quite lost. I was completely beside

  70. 1myself, and as I say, I was almost 70 per cent killed.

    2 When I looked at the territory of Ahmici and everything

    3 and when I saw what had happened and what had been

    4 done, I was quite beside myself, and that is where I

    5 looked down into the valley. From this vantage point

    6 here, that's Barin Gaj. That's the plateau, the high

    7 ground, and from there, I could view this entire area

    8 here, and when I saw everything, I was quite beside

    9 myself.

    10 Q. Now, you've indicated Barin Gaj with the

    11 pointer. Is there some sort of a letter or marker on

    12 this map --

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. -- that indicates generally where Barin Gaj

    15 is? Could you read out the marker or the letter?

    16 A. This. Here it is. That's it (indicating).

    17 That is my route, the route I took. My house is there;

    18 that's the exit to my house. This is between Suad's

    19 and Ejeba's (phoen) house. This is the thicket. I

    20 came out here onto this clearing. This is the wood.

    21 When I got up onto the clearing, I felt that I had

    22 managed to escape from the encirclement of the HVO down

    23 there.

    24 This is the path which links up Pirici and

    25 the village of Ahmici, which is over here, and I took

  71. 1this path which led me to my mother's house. That's

    2 where my mother's house is located (indicating). This

    3 is my neighbour's house, Hazim's, and from there, from

    4 my mother's house, I went across -- this is the village

    5 of Pirici, all this here (indicating), and I continued

    6 via Bace and came to the village of Vidovici, through

    7 the garden, and across -- along the path which led to

    8 Barin Gaj. This is the path leading straight to Barin

    9 Gaj; and when I got here, I went this way (indicating),

    10 to this field which gave me a view of everything down

    11 below.

    12 When I finished all that, and I was

    13 completely lost and beside myself, I went back to

    14 Vrhovine, up there, and came to the village of

    15 Vrhovine; and when I got there, they took me in. A

    16 young man -- all the village -- there were no

    17 inhabitants in the village because the HVO soldiers

    18 shelled Vrhovine and so the women and children left

    19 their homes and went up above the village. And when I

    20 came, I went out onto the road, and a man came towards

    21 me out of the mass that was standing there, the mass of

    22 people standing there, he came up to me and said,

    23 "Sakib, well, why didn't somebody see to your

    24 wounds?" And I said, I told him the truth, I said,

    25 "You're the first people that I have encountered

  72. 1because there's no living soul down there in the

    2 valley." And he did take out a sort of bandage and

    3 bandage one hand and then the other hand, and he said,

    4 "We have two more injured people. You're the third.

    5 You have a vehicle up by the crossroads, and you will

    6 be taken by car, all three of you injured, will be

    7 taken to the hospital in Zenica." And that's what

    8 happened. The ambulance came, the car came, the

    9 vehicle came, and they took us off to Zenica. We went

    10 via the Dobriljeno village and then down towards the

    11 town, towards-- past Mokosnjice, and a car, an

    12 ambulance was waiting for us there and took us over and

    13 took us to the hospital where they took us in and where

    14 they gave us first aid. Our treatment, our medical

    15 treatment was continued there. My entry into hospital

    16 took place on the 17th of April, 1993. I left the

    17 hospital on the 1st of May, 1994.

    18 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Mr. President, I note the

    19 time, and this maybe a good place to break.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. We rise now. Thirty

    21 minutes.

    22 --- Recess taken at 3.34 p.m.

    23 --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.

    24 (The witness entered court)

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Mr. Moskowitz?

  73. 1MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, Mr. President.

    2 Q. Mr. Ahmic, we left off with your having been

    3 taken to the hospital. What city was this in that you

    4 went to the hospital?

    5 A. The town of Zenica.

    6 Q. And again, will you tell us how long you were

    7 in the hospital?

    8 A. I was admitted to hospital on the 17th of

    9 April, 1993, and I left the hospital on the 1st of May,

    10 1994.

    11 Q. Are you aware of some inaccuracy in your

    12 release date as noted in a report?

    13 A. Yes, yes. There is an inaccuracy. They said

    14 that I had been discharged on the 26th, according to

    15 their date. And there's a difference also in the

    16 month, there's a small error. Yes, there is an

    17 inaccuracy, but minor inaccuracy. It's a difference of

    18 a couple of days.

    19 Q. Did you remain in the same hospital for that

    20 whole period of time or were you transferred from one

    21 hospital to another?

    22 A. No, I wasn't in the same hospital all that

    23 time. I was moved from the main hospital to the

    24 medical school, as there were a large number of wounded

    25 arriving and all the beds were occupied. There were

  74. 1people lying in the corridors. And so as to free some

    2 beds for the heavily wounded, those who had recovered

    3 to some extent were transferred to the medical school

    4 where their treatment was continued in the same way as

    5 in the hospital. We continued to receive the same

    6 therapy, X-rays, check-ups of the heart function, et

    7 cetera.

    8 Q. Could you briefly describe, to the best your

    9 recollection, the kind of treatment that you received

    10 when you arrived at the main hospital in Zenica?

    11 A. I'm afraid I don't understand the question.

    12 Immediately I was given first-aid treatment, and then

    13 treatment was continued in hospital.

    14 Q. How did they treat your burn wounds?

    15 A. They treated them with some lotions, creams,

    16 sprays.

    17 Q. Did you receive any medication, any pills?

    18 A. Yes, yes, I did. We were given pills, and

    19 shots and all kinds of things.

    20 Q. Can you describe whether you were in any pain

    21 at this time and tell us how severe that pain was?

    22 A. I felt very strong pain at the very beginning

    23 when they were giving me first-aid. I think the pain

    24 was worse than while I was actually burning. The pain

    25 was bad. My heart was examined many times. I was

  75. 1under constant medical control regarding the heart

    2 function. I was never left unattended by a nurse in

    3 the hospital.

    4 Q. How long did the pain last?

    5 A. For a long time. I had pain -- I felt pain

    6 for almost three or four months. The treatment was

    7 slow. It took time to heal. I had terrible problems

    8 with these burns and wounds. My fingers were totally

    9 stiff. I couldn't move any of them. All this is new

    10 skin. I had lost all my nails from my fingers.

    11 There was a shortage of medicines too. I had

    12 a friend in the town of Zenica who managed to find

    13 special lily oil which I used to massage my fingers,

    14 except for this finger, which remains stiff. I don't

    15 have any strength in that finger. You see, the finger

    16 remains fixed. There is no strength in it. As for the

    17 rest of my fingers, they're working well now.

    18 Q. What about your face? Was that also injured,

    19 and if so, what did they do to treat that?

    20 A. My face was terrible. It was also badly

    21 burned and scorched. It was treated in the same way,

    22 with sprays. When I say "sprays," these were to fill

    23 in the gaps so as to prevent infection. But the pain

    24 was very bad. It is hard to describe.

    25 Q. While you were in the hospital at this time

  76. 1period, do you recall giving two statements to

    2 investigators?

    3 A. Yes, I do.

    4 Q. Did you tell those investigators everything

    5 you knew about what had happened in your house?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. What didn't you tell them?

    8 A. What I didn't tell them or why I didn't tell

    9 them?

    10 Q. What you didn't tell them.

    11 A. First of all, in that statement I didn't dare

    12 name the killers of my children. I didn't dare name

    13 Zoran Kupreskic, I didn't dare name Mirjan Kupreskic in

    14 that statement.

    15 Q. Why didn't you dare name the killers of your

    16 children?

    17 A. I didn't dare name them because the war was

    18 in full swing in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I couldn't

    19 know at the time how the war would end and how it would

    20 come to a stop, and that is the reason why I didn't

    21 have the courage to name anyone at that time.

    22 Q. Now, in later statements you did name Zoran

    23 and Mirjan as the killers of your children and your

    24 family. Why did you do it in later statements? What

    25 had happened?

  77. 1A. I came to a decision in my thoughts, and I

    2 said to myself, why? Why should I protect the people

    3 who killed my dearest ones, when they had the strength

    4 to carry out this massacre, these murders, these evil

    5 things they did? Who should I fear to tell the truth?

    6 I'm not afraid of anyone any more. And I

    7 shall never be afraid of anyone any more. All those

    8 who did that, let them look after -- let them fear me.

    9 They are the criminals and not me. That is one

    10 reason.

    11 And secondly, I always want the truth. I

    12 always want to tell the truth. Each individual, each

    13 person on this earth, my opinion that whatever he does,

    14 he should suffer the consequences. If I work in a

    15 company for a month, the company is obliged to pay me

    16 for the labour I have invested in that company.

    17 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Mr. Ahmic, at this time I

    18 would like to show you a brief video and show the Court

    19 a brief video, and as we look at it, it's a short one,

    20 and after it's played I would like you to comment on

    21 it, please.

    22 With the permission of the court, I would at

    23 this time ask for the video to be played.

    24 (Videotape played)

    25 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Mr. Ahmic --

  78. 1JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry. Mr. Radovic is

    2 asking--

    3 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, we would be

    4 grateful to the Prosecutor if he could tell us when

    5 this tape was taken and where it was shown, because

    6 this was obviously for a TV programme.


    8 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I will ask the witness if he

    9 recalls.

    10 Q. Mr. Ahmic, was that you on the tape?

    11 A. Yes, it was.

    12 Q. Do you recall where that interview took

    13 place?

    14 A. In Zenica, in the hospital at Crkvice. I

    15 think this took place on the 18th or the 19th of April,

    16 I'm not quite sure. But it was with -- one of those

    17 two days, right after the event.

    18 MR. RADOVIC: One further question. Which TV

    19 company shot this?

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Moskowitz?


    22 Q. Do you know which TV company shot this? Do

    23 you recall that?

    24 A. I think it was Radio Zenica. Zenica.

    25 Q. Now, we could see from that tape that -- we

  79. 1could see from that tape that there was some injuries.

    2 Could you tell us if you can recall how you were

    3 feeling on the day you gave that tape -- that taped

    4 interview?

    5 A. I was in a very bad condition. I was not

    6 feeling well at all.

    7 It is hard to describe. I was still beside

    8 myself. I felt lost. I had lost everything. And to

    9 this day I feel awful. I was sick. I was in a shock,

    10 in a state of shock for days, because I had lost all

    11 that was dear to me. You can imagine how I could have

    12 felt.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Moskowitz, sorry to

    14 interrupt you. I imagine you're going to provide the

    15 Court with a transcript of that videotape.

    16 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes, we will, and we have

    17 transcripts prepared. Yes, Your Honour.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    19 MR. MOSKOWITZ: It may be, Your Honour, that

    20 these transcripts have already been provided to the

    21 Court as well as to Defence counsel, but we are happy

    22 to provide another set of copies. In any event, we are

    23 prepared to provide copies.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.


  80. 1Q. At the time you made this videotape,

    2 Mr. Ahmic, had you yet decided to come forward and

    3 reveal the killers of your family?

    4 A. At that time, at the time that this was

    5 filmed, I don't know what I had in mind. At the time I

    6 certainly was undecided whether to name those people or

    7 not.

    8 Q. I think you indicated earlier that there was

    9 a war going on. At the time that the war was going on,

    10 did you know who was going to win that war?

    11 A. No. No.

    12 Q. Were you in the Zenica hospital when the city

    13 of Zenica was shelled?

    14 A. Yes, I was.

    15 Q. At the time you gave this interview, did you

    16 know where your family members were?

    17 A. I didn't know. I didn't know where they

    18 were.

    19 Q. Did you come to find out what had happened to

    20 the bodies of your family members in that house?

    21 A. Yes. Yes, I was informed about it. They

    22 came to the hospital, and they told me about all these

    23 killed members of my family in the house, that for each

    24 person a coffin had been provided, a Muslim priest, a

    25 Hajra, for the religious burial rights.

  81. 1They wanted to hear what my wish was

    2 regarding where they should be buried, my children. I

    3 told them we have two cemeteries in the area of Ahmici,

    4 which were inaccessible at the time, both of them, so I

    5 asked them to check and see whether it was possible in

    6 Stari Vitez, and if possible, in Stari Vitez, they

    7 should be buried there. And if that was not possible,

    8 if not in Stari Vitez, if it was impossible to reach

    9 it, then I asked them to bring them to Zenica. And if

    10 they were to be buried in Zenica, that they should come

    11 for me so that I should be present at the time my

    12 children were buried. However, nobody came back

    13 again. I heard that they had been buried in Stari

    14 Vitez, and that is how it was.

    15 Q. Do you recall the name of the person you were

    16 talking to about the bodies of your family?

    17 A. I think it was Thomas, Mr. Thomas.

    18 Q. Can you tell us, if you can recall, the

    19 number of your house as it was numbered in 1993?

    20 A. Yes. It was number 5. Number 5 was the

    21 number of the house.

    22 MR. MOSKOWITZ: At this time, Mr. Usher, I

    23 would ask the witness be shown this exhibit.

    24 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 158. The

    25 videotape has been marked 157.


    2 Q. Mr. Ahmic, could you please look at the

    3 Exhibit 158 and identify that, please?

    4 A. This is my son Naser. Please, don't mind

    5 me. Please don't.

    6 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Perhaps we should take a

    7 brief recess.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: We'll adjourn for ten

    9 minutes.

    10 A. Those are my eyes.

    11 --- Recess taken at 4.26 p.m.

    12 --- On resuming at 4.39 p.m.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Moskowitz, the Court

    14 considers that it is not necessary to show the witness

    15 all those pictures. The fact that his relatives were

    16 killed is not in dispute. Defence counsel, I imagine,

    17 will not dispute that, and I don't see why he should go

    18 through a most excruciating, terrible experience. So I

    19 wonder whether we could move on to other matters?

    20 (The witness entered)

    21 MR. MOSKOWITZ: He indicated to me,

    22 Mr. President, that he wanted that opportunity to show

    23 his son. We have no other pictures of that nature.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.


  83. 1Q. Mr. Ahmic, are you now capable of proceeding

    2 just a little while longer?

    3 A. I'll try.

    4 Q. I only have just two or three questions now,

    5 and they're also difficult questions.

    6 A. All right.

    7 Q. Could you please look around the courtroom

    8 and see if you can identify Zoran Kupreskic?

    9 A. Yes, I can. Zoran Kupreskic is to the right.

    10 Q. Is he in the front row or the next row behind

    11 it?

    12 A. In the front row.

    13 MR. MOSKOWITZ: May the record reflect he's

    14 identified Zoran Kupreskic.

    15 Q. Could you look around the room and see if you

    16 can identify Mirjan Kupreskic?

    17 A. Yes, I can. Mirjan Kupreskic is next to

    18 Zoran.

    19 MR. MOSKOWITZ: May the record reflect he's

    20 identified Mirjan Kupreskic.

    21 Q. Were these the two men who were in your house

    22 on April 16, 1993, while your family was killed before

    23 your eyes?

    24 A. Yes. Yes.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Ahmic, you may sit.

  84. 1Please be seated.

    2 A. Thank you.


    4 Q. Can you also look around the room and

    5 identify Vlatko Kupreskic?

    6 A. Yes, I can.

    7 Q. And where is he sitting, please?

    8 A. To the left, left of Zoran and Mirjan is

    9 Vlatko Kupreskic.

    10 Q. Could you tell me what colour of clothing he

    11 is wearing?

    12 A. Vlatko is wearing a white shirt and a dark

    13 tie, a blue tie.

    14 MR. MOSKOWITZ: May the record reflect that

    15 he has identified Vlatko Kupreskic.

    16 Your Honours, I have no more questions except

    17 to formally offer the exhibits that we have entered.

    18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibits from 150 to 158.

    19 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you. Those exhibits.

    20 I note that there is time left in the day; however, I

    21 wonder if, after this exhausting experience, Mr. Ahmic

    22 is willing or capable to begin cross-examination today,

    23 a process that undoubtedly will not finish today in any

    24 event, and he needs to come back the week after next.

    25 I think he is quite exhausted, but perhaps the Court

  85. 1can question him to see if he is able to proceed.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Thank you,

    3 Mr. Moskowitz. First of all, let me turn to counsel

    4 for Zoran and Mirjan Kupreskic to ask them whether they

    5 would like to start cross-examining the witness today.

    6 Mr. Radovic, you say no.

    7 MR. RADOVIC: No, Your Honour, because when

    8 we first learned that Mr. Sakib Ahmic was going to

    9 substitute for the witness who was supposed to be

    10 testifying, you yourself stated, and we also were made

    11 to believe, that he was not going to be cross-examined,

    12 so we would like to keep it that way.

    13 Let me just add something else, if I may? I

    14 see that we have had identification of the accused

    15 here, but we believe that it, as a rule, is done when

    16 the witness knows the accused. In this case, it is

    17 not -- it is not -- there is no controversy there

    18 because they were neighbours, so I see no particular

    19 point in having this witness identify the accused who

    20 were his neighbours. Thank you.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: The point is not that he

    22 identified them as neighbours but as persons whom he

    23 claims saw killing his relatives, so it is a different

    24 point.

    25 Mr. Pavkovic?

  86. 1THE WITNESS: Yes. The dearest people to my

    2 heart.

    3 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, if you intend

    4 to go on with the proceedings and if the witness is

    5 able and is willing to accept cross-examination, our

    6 colleague Krajina may have one or two relatively easy

    7 questions for him, and if the witness is agreeable, I

    8 would then turn the floor over to my colleague,

    9 Mr. Krajina.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you so much,

    11 Mr. Pavkovic.

    12 Let me turn to Mr. Ahmic and ask him:

    13 Mr. Ahmic, do you want to stop now and go back home

    14 because you are exhausted, or do you want us to

    15 continue, and in this case, counsel for one of the

    16 accused will ask you questions. If you feel tired, you

    17 are entitled to withdraw now.

    18 THE WITNESS: To be honest and frank with

    19 you, I am not just exhausted, I am really exhausted,

    20 and I don't think that I have the strength to continue

    21 now.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. All right. So you may

    23 leave the courtroom now and we will continue with

    24 procedural matters. You will come back when we resume

    25 our --

  87. 1THE WITNESS: Thank you.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may go.

    3 Thank you.

    4 THE WITNESS: Thank you too and good-bye.

    5 (The witness withdrew)

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Let us discuss a few matters

    7 relating to some matters of relevance to our

    8 proceedings. First of all, the question of Witness

    9 number 6, the lady we mentioned this morning. Now, our

    10 position is that we will request the physicians here in

    11 The Hague to provide us with further medical reports

    12 after the check-up, and we understand you have probably

    13 seen the report which was circulated this afternoon.

    14 The check-up was at lunch time. I assume probably by

    15 Monday we will receive a detailed report from the

    16 doctors. Meanwhile, she will be allowed to leave. I

    17 understand she is very keen to go back to her house.

    18 In light of the report, we will decide what to do, but

    19 our intention is that she should be called back and

    20 give evidence in court.

    21 We are acting under Rule 89 -- sorry. I

    22 think 98, it must be. Yes, 98, to be read in

    23 conjunction with Rule 89, and on the strength of those

    24 Rules, we intend to call back the witness. We will

    25 take all the necessary steps short of, of course,

  88. 1forcing the witness to come back to The Hague. If, as

    2 I hope, she is better, she will be given, at our

    3 request, psychological support, she should be treated

    4 while at home, if possible, and when she comes back, I

    5 hope that the Witness and Victims Unit will provide

    6 psychological support to her while she will be in The

    7 Hague, and I think that she should testify, say, one or

    8 two days, at the latest, after her return to The Hague,

    9 because we understand from the persons working for the

    10 Victims and Witnesses Unit that for the witnesses

    11 spending a few days here, a lot of time here, is quite

    12 taxing and they become exhausted and, of course, also

    13 this becomes very difficult. So as soon as she gets

    14 here, as soon as possible she should be called to

    15 testify. But, as I say, we will let you know. We are

    16 taking this matter in hand.

    17 As for the other witnesses, I wonder whether

    18 the Prosecution could provide both the Court and the

    19 Defence with a list of the witnesses to be heard as

    20 soon as we resume our proceedings, a list and the

    21 order, and also I wonder whether the Prosecution at

    22 this stage can give a rough idea of the number, the

    23 total number of witnesses they intend to call so that

    24 we can make plans to see whether we may finish by

    25 mid-October, as we hope.

  89. 1In this connection, we feel now that we have

    2 to go back to our old timetable. We can't afford to,

    3 in a way, work for about four hours fifteen minutes?

    4 No, we have to go back to the old schedule whereby we

    5 spend about, I think, five hours, working hours, per

    6 day, so we propose that when we resume our proceedings

    7 on the 15th of September, we will sit from 9.30 to

    8 12.30 and again from 2.00 to 5.00. So longer hours.

    9 Friday afternoons will be off, but at some stage, if

    10 need be, we may have to go back to longer hours as we

    11 have done yesterday and today. But let us avoid that

    12 because it is, of course, difficult and awkward for

    13 everybody.

    14 I wonder whether the Prosecutor has some

    15 information to provide at this stage? Mr. Terrier?

    16 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, regarding the

    17 first question, regarding the order of appearance of

    18 witnesses for the week beginning the 15th of September,

    19 we have prepared the names of witnesses, and I think

    20 that in view of the fact that the cross-examination of

    21 Mr. Sakib Ahmic will certainly take several hours of

    22 hearing, we have to review this order of appearance of

    23 witnesses, and perhaps, at the beginning of next week,

    24 we can fax to the Defence and the Court a list of

    25 witnesses that will be properly corrected.

  90. 1As for the continuation of our proceedings,

    2 right through until the month of October, we intend to

    3 consult on these three weeks of hearings and prepare

    4 for them, and I think that we will provide to your

    5 Court an overview of the number of witnesses.

    6 I wish just to say that our considerations

    7 are the same as yours, that is, that we will do our

    8 best to present the evidence within the time period

    9 required by the Tribunal.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: When do you think you could

    11 give us a transcript of the videotape? Is it ready?

    12 Probably. It is ready. So if we could get it even

    13 this afternoon? Yes. Thank you.

    14 Well, I owe an apology to the Prosecution,

    15 actually, now that I have got it, I realise, somewhere

    16 in my file. This document was already to be found and

    17 actually it had already been given to the Court, and I

    18 imagine the Defence as well has got an original

    19 transcript in Croatian.

    20 Any matter? I wonder whether the Defence

    21 wish -- oh, yes, Mr. Terrier?

    22 MR. TERRIER: A question, a legal question.

    23 We envisage the week from the 15th to the 18th of

    24 September to call as witnesses police officers, Dutch

    25 police officers, who accompanied us in Bosnia for some

  91. 1of our examinations on the spot, and the Court has at

    2 its disposal the reports submitted by these police

    3 officers. We are calling them, let that be clear, as

    4 witnesses of fact, and therefore, they will be subject

    5 to cross-examination. We have disclosed to the Defence

    6 their names and the area, the substance of their

    7 testimony in August 1998. That is in line with the

    8 order that you gave. I think three or four days are

    9 lacking, but I wonder whether, in accordance with Rule,

    10 I think it is 127, you can allow this reduction of the

    11 time required? We are not even quite sure that they

    12 will be able to testify next week because of other

    13 circumstances.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Radovic?

    15 MR. RADOVIC: Regarding the videotape which

    16 we viewed today, we have an objection. This videotape,

    17 in fact, shows an excerpt from the interview of Sakib

    18 Ahmic with either the journalist or whoever filmed

    19 this. When videotapes are used, we cannot be sure

    20 whether this videotape contains everything that Sakib

    21 Ahmic said during this television programme. We have

    22 certain information regarding this broadcast, and we

    23 ourselves attempted to get a copy of it, but we see

    24 that the Prosecution was able to do so.

    25 We would like you to advise the Prosecution

  92. 1to show us the entire videotape containing the

    2 interview with Sakib Ahmic so that we can see whether

    3 the excerpt that we have seen contains everything that

    4 he had stated in the hospital or whether this was just

    5 an excerpt which would tend to support the case that

    6 the Prosecution is trying to offer.

    7 We believe that there may be other elements

    8 in there, and I don't think that we need to go into

    9 detail about that now here.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, Mr. Radovic, I think

    11 your request is quite reasonable, and I wonder whether

    12 the Prosecutor -- I see Mr. Moskowitz. Could you

    13 provide the whole text -- the whole videotape?

    14 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I'm not aware that there is

    15 another one in our possession, but I will undertake

    16 another search to see if there's a longer videotape

    17 somewhere in the building, but it's my understanding

    18 that this is the videotape that we have and that there

    19 is not another one. There are other witnesses who are

    20 on the videotape being interviewed in what we have.

    21 I'm not aware, however, that we have a longer one of

    22 Mr. Ahmic. But we will look again and see if we can

    23 find it.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Also because we understand

    25 from the witness that it was made by the Zenica TV.

  93. 1Probably you could ask the company in Zenica to provide

    2 you a copy of the full tape, the whole interview.

    3 MR. MOSKOWITZ: We will try.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Because I think that

    5 Mr. Radovic is absolutely right.

    6 MR. MOSKOWITZ: We will try.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: However, Mr. Terrier had

    8 raised the issue of the -- what we felt were expert

    9 witnesses, but the Prosecution would like to call those

    10 police officers as fact witnesses, I understand.

    11 I wonder whether the Defence are ready to

    12 waive their right of having 30 days? It is the new

    13 Rule which we adopted about the expert witnesses. Do

    14 you remember the number of the -- I don't have it

    15 here. Thirty days. I remember there was 30 days. If

    16 you don't waive this right, I mean, the witness could

    17 be called a bit later, but really ...

    18 Mr. Pavkovic, are you able to set out your

    19 position?

    20 MR. PAVKOVIC: It seems to me, Mr. President,

    21 that the Defence would be agreeable that these expert

    22 witnesses be heard within a time frame; in other words,

    23 we do not need 30 days' notice on the names of these

    24 witnesses and their statements.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Also because I think Rule 94

  94. 1bis actually does not apply because you don't intend to

    2 call them as expert witnesses. They are fact

    3 witnesses, so the normal rules on the disclosure of

    4 their statements apply, and I wonder whether, under

    5 those Rules, the necessary time limit is met.

    6 MR. TERRIER: Quite, Mr. President. The list

    7 that I am referring to, this guideline envisages 30

    8 days, but this has not elapsed, only 25 or 26 or 27

    9 days have elapsed. That is the only problem that I was

    10 referring to.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Am I correct in

    12 understanding, Mr. Pavkovic, that you will not object

    13 to the calling of those witnesses by the Prosecution

    14 two or three days before the expiry of the delay time

    15 limit of 30 days?

    16 MR. PAVKOVIC: That is correct, Your Honour.

    17 We do not object that these witnesses be called and

    18 their testimony be heard within this time period.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Any other

    20 matter? Mr. Moskowitz?

    21 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes, Mr. President, just

    22 briefly. I would like to make the record absolutely

    23 clear with regard to this videotape.

    24 The videotape that we played today was shown

    25 to Defence counsel I think a week ago Friday and they

  95. 1were fully aware of the videotape that we had in our

    2 possession, and we have not heard, until this very

    3 moment, that they are aware of another longer

    4 videotape, so I am, first of all, a little bit

    5 surprised that this was not raised sooner, and had it

    6 been raised sooner, we would have done the search, and

    7 if we had found a longer videotape, we would have

    8 played it.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, but they have a right to

    10 raise objections at any time, and probably after seeing

    11 the videotape, they realise that this might be just a

    12 little bit of the whole videotape. Probably the

    13 interview with the witness was much longer, and they're

    14 entitled to see whether or not it was longer. So

    15 whether or not they were right in raising this issue

    16 today, I think they are right to do so, and therefore,

    17 let us check. I mean, please --

    18 MR. MOSKOWITZ: No, I --

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: To check, in particular, in

    20 Zenica. I wonder whether you could ask them to be

    21 careful and to send you the -- if not the original --

    22 ideally, we should get the original.

    23 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I will speak to the

    24 investigator this afternoon about that very matter.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, the original. If we

  96. 1could get the original, if not, a copy certified by the

    2 relevant people in Zenica, and if possible, the whole

    3 interview. Thank you.

    4 Mr. Radovic?

    5 MR. RADOVIC: During the war, there was this

    6 TV organisation called ZETEL. Apparently now it has

    7 become part of the Bosnia and Herzegovina Television

    8 organisation. So maybe this search may not now be

    9 limited to Zenica alone but maybe to Sarajevo as well.

    10 We would like if the entire programme would be shown

    11 here for the Tribunal so that this would save us

    12 calling several witnesses who have seen the entire

    13 programme and have been aware of it for some time.

    14 Thank you.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. This is what I

    16 intended, what I had in mind, namely, to try to have

    17 the videotape with the whole programme, and I agree

    18 with Mr. Radovic, probably since now the original copy

    19 of that videotape might be in Sarajevo, I wonder

    20 whether the Prosecution could carry out research,

    21 undertake some sort of research even there, in

    22 Sarajevo.

    23 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I will ask the investigator

    24 to do that.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Are there other

  97. 1matters?

    2 If there are no other matters, before rising,

    3 I would like to take this opportunity to thank the

    4 interpreters. You probably don't know that the

    5 interpreters who, as we all know, are excellent, and

    6 they yesterday came to see me to ask whether they could

    7 have longer breaks because they normally work for an

    8 hour and a half and then there is a break, and I

    9 insisted, "No, we have to work for two hours without

    10 any break," and they accepted, they were extremely

    11 friendly and kind, and I would like to thank them most

    12 warmly for being so understanding.

    13 There are no other matters, so we will now

    14 adjourn until Tuesday -- I think it's Tuesday, 15th of

    15 September, 9.30 sharp.

    16 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at

    17 5.08 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

    18 the 15th day of September, 1998, at

    19 9.30 a.m.