1. 1 Monday, 21st September 1998

    2 (Open session)

    3 (The accused entered court)

    4 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

    5 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-16-T, the

    6 Prosecutor versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic,

    7 Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic,

    8 Vladimir Santic, also known as "Vlado."

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. Before I ask

    10 the Prosecutor to call in their next witness, let me

    11 draw your attention to a motion filed on the 17th of

    12 September by the accused Dario Kordic and Mario Cerkez

    13 for access to non-public materials in this case.

    14 I wonder whether the Prosecution or the

    15 Defence could give us their comments, their oral

    16 comments, say on Wednesday or Thursday before we

    17 decide? We would like to know what they think about

    18 this motion.

    19 Is it fine with you if we receive your

    20 comments on Wednesday morning? Yes. Wednesday

    21 morning? Yes. Good.

    22 So we can now proceed with the next witness.

    23 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Mr. President, with the

    24 permission of the Court, while we are waiting for the

    25 next witness, we filed today an order of witness

  2. 1 appearance for this week, and we wish to draw attention

    2 to a slight change in order.

    3 Witness No. 2 on our present list will now

    4 appear in place of Witness No. 4. So, in effect,

    5 Witness No. 2 becomes Witness No. 4 and Witness No. 3

    6 becomes Witness No. 2 and Witness No. 4 becomes Witness

    7 No. 3, if that's clear.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Since we are still waiting

    9 for the witness --

    10 (The witness entered court)

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: -- I wonder whether you have

    12 submitted to the Trial Chamber the statement of Witness

    13 No. 11 because -- probably this is because of my messy

    14 file, but I can't find, in my file, his or her

    15 statement, but this may be my own problem.

    16 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Our records show that the

    17 statement was filed and presented to the Court, but it

    18 may be that there was some confusion about the name,

    19 and what we will do, that is, if, in fact, the Court is

    20 having difficulty finding it, we will simply submit

    21 another statement today, if necessary.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Thank you. I

    23 understand we will use a pseudonym for the present

    24 witness. It will be Witness M.

    25 Witness M, may I ask you to stand up and read

  3. 1 the solemn declaration?

    2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. The

    3 microphone isn't switched on. Microphone, please. I'm

    4 afraid we can't hear the witness.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: I'm afraid the interpreters

    6 can't hear the witness. I wonder whether you could put

    7 the microphone in front of the witness?

    8 Could you please repeat your declaration,

    9 because we could not hear the translation?

    10 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    12 truth.

    13 THE INTERPRETER: But we still can't hear the

    14 witness very well.


    16 Examined by Mr. Moskowitz:

    17 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Mr. President, I am now

    18 requesting the usher to hand to the witness the

    19 Prosecutor's next exhibit, a piece of paper.

    20 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is.

    21 THE INTERPRETER: But I'm afraid we still

    22 can't hear the witness very well.

    23 THE REGISTRAR: Document is marked Exhibit

    24 178.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: May I ask the usher to make

  4. 1 sure that the witness speaks into the microphone

    2 because the interpreters said that they still can't

    3 hear the witness. Thank you.

    4 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, Mr. President.

    5 Q. Good morning, Witness M.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic?

    7 MR. RADOVIC: I think that is her real name

    8 because the first is "ch," not "sh." You know our ...

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Can you show it to Counsel

    10 Radovic (referring to Exhibit 178)? Thank you, Counsel

    11 Radovic, for drawing our attention to a slight misprint

    12 or typo or whatever.

    13 Yes, please.


    15 Q. Good morning, Witness M.

    16 A. (Interpretation inaudible)

    17 Q. I want to assure you that you have been

    18 granted by this Tribunal the protection measures that

    19 you have requested. Do you understand that?

    20 A. (Interpretation inaudible)

    21 Q. So you may feel confident to provide full and

    22 clear testimony here today.

    23 A. (Interpretation inaudible)

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: The answer was not

    25 translated. Can the interpreters hear the witness?

  5. 1 Yes. You may proceed. I hope we no longer

    2 have any problem.

    3 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you.

    4 Q. Witness M, could you tell us in what year you

    5 were born?

    6 A. (Interpretation inaudible)

    7 Q. Witness M, we're having a little technical

    8 difficulty with the translation, so that is why there

    9 is this delay, so please bear with us.

    10 THE INTERPRETER: A moment ago, we couldn't

    11 hear anything. Whether we can hear now, I don't know,

    12 because the microphone isn't being used.


    14 Q. Witness M, I'm going to have to ask you what

    15 year you were born again, ask you that question again,

    16 and then we will see if the microphone is working. I

    17 know this is probably the wrong question to have to

    18 repeat, but it seems like the logical one.

    19 Could you tell us again what year you were

    20 born in, and speak into the microphone, please?

    21 A. In 1940.

    22 Q. Now, without naming the members of your

    23 family, could you describe for us your family, the

    24 composition of your family, in 1993?

    25 A. I had three sons, two daughters, three

  6. 1 grandchildren, myself, and my husband.

    2 Q. Do you recall when you came to the village of

    3 Ahmici?

    4 A. I don't know.

    5 Q. Do you remember the year?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. Where was your home village?

    8 A. In Karaula.

    9 Q. Why didn't you stay in Karaula?

    10 A. We couldn't stay there.

    11 Q. What happened there?

    12 A. Well, what happened was that we had to

    13 evacuate to Travnik because of the war. I don't know,

    14 really. They took us down there to Travnik. That's

    15 what had to be.

    16 Q. Did you remain in Travnik, or did you have to

    17 leave Travnik as well?

    18 A. We were in Travnik for some time, and when

    19 Karaula fell, we left to Vitez to Dubravica.

    20 Q. About how long did you spend in Dubravica?

    21 A. Only three days.

    22 Q. Where did you go after you left Dubravica?

    23 A. To Ahmici.

    24 Q. Do you remember the place that you went to in

    25 Ahmici, the house you went to?

  7. 1 A. I remember. Of course, I remember. It's as

    2 if I saw the house now, but it doesn't exist anymore.

    3 It's sort of disappeared.

    4 Q. Who is the owner of that house?

    5 A. (redacted).

    6 Q. Are you related to (redacted).

    7 A. No. No, I'm not.

    8 Q. How did it come that you went to his house to

    9 live when you came to Ahmici?

    10 A. Through some friends of ours.

    11 Q. Were you living (redacted), you and your

    12 family, living with (redacted) just before the attack began

    13 in 1993?

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 A. Yes. I know that the closest neighbour was

    19 Vlatko Kupreskic.

    20 Q. Did you know Vlatko Kupreskic by sight?

    21 Could you recognise him?

    22 A. No. No. No, I couldn't.

    23 Q. Do you know where he lived and what his house

    24 looked like?

    25 A. Yes, the house wasn't far off (redacted) house.

  8. 1 Q. Could you see Vlatko Kupreskic's house from

    2 (redacted)?

    3 A. Yes, we could see it from the house through

    4 the window. We had a constant view of Vlatko's house;

    5 and when the light was on downstairs, you could see

    6 people moving about, the mother probably. I don't know

    7 who the father was. But it's not far.

    8 Q. Just perhaps to orient us a little more, do

    9 you recall who some of your closest Muslim neighbours

    10 were in that neighbourhood?

    11 A. Yes, I remember. There was Redzib Ahmic,

    12 Meho Hrustanovic, Krdzalic Huso, Sakib Ahmic and his

    13 two sons, Naser, Sukrija, Budo. Behind (redacted),

    14 I don't know the surname of those -- that man.

    15 Q. Now, outside of (redacted), was there some

    16 sort of water spout or water tap, and if there was,

    17 could you tell us where it was outside or in relation

    18 to (redacted)?

    19 A. Yes, I can. The next house to Vlatko's, up

    20 above towards (redacted) on the right-hand side, the

    21 corner of the house, the first corner as you look at

    22 the house from the bottom, there was a water tap.

    23 Q. Did you occasionally use that water tap while

    24 you were living in (redacted)?

    25 A. Yes, all the time. That's where we did the

  9. 1 washing.

    2 Q. Could you see Vlatko's house from that water

    3 tap?

    4 A. Yes, yes, I could. Of course, I could. How

    5 could we not see it, because it was close? I don't

    6 know the exact distance, though. But, of course,

    7 Vlatko's house is very close to (redacted).

    8 Q. Now, do you remember the day of the attack,

    9 and without describing what happened that day, my

    10 question is just: Do you remember that day?

    11 A. Yes, I do.

    12 Q. Now, I want to draw your attention to the day

    13 or evening before the attack. Do you recall being at

    14 the water tap on that day, the day before the attack?

    15 A. Yes, I do. It was a Thursday, the 15th of

    16 April.

    17 Q. While you were at the water tap on the 15th

    18 of April, did you happen to look at Vlatko Kupreskic's

    19 house?

    20 A. Yes. Perhaps I would not have looked at it,

    21 but I heard a vehicle of some kind, and I looked up and

    22 saw that a truck had come with the army, with

    23 soldiers. I would not have known that they were

    24 soldiers had I not seen them getting out below Vlatko's

    25 house, the basement, below Vlatko's house.

  10. 1 Q. Now, can you recall what kind of truck this

    2 was? Can you describe it in any way?

    3 A. No, I can't. I have forgotten what kind of

    4 truck. I can't tell you that. I don't know.

    5 Q. Now, you mentioned soldiers. Where did you

    6 see these soldiers coming from?

    7 A. Well, they came from down there, down the

    8 Makadim road surface, on the road, and they came to the

    9 basement below Vlatko's house.

    10 Q. Did you see the soldiers go into Vlatko's

    11 house?

    12 A. Not that. No, I didn't. The entrance to

    13 Vlatko's house is by the road, but they went below, in

    14 front of the basement, below his house.

    15 Q. Is this the basement of Vlatko's house that

    16 you're referring to?

    17 A. Well, there was a warehouse of some kind.

    18 What it was, I don't know. But that's where they

    19 were. It was something strange that he had down below,

    20 but it was like a basement, a sort of storage place.

    21 Q. Do you recall how many soldiers you saw?

    22 A. No. No, I don't. I didn't count them.

    23 Q. Could you give us an idea as to whether it

    24 was one or two or ten or more?

    25 A. I don't know. I can say perhaps five, five

  11. 1 or six. I stopped looking. I went away. I washed my

    2 shoes at the water tap and I went back home.

    3 Q. Now, you mentioned that these people that you

    4 saw, that they were soldiers. How did you know they

    5 were soldiers?

    6 A. Well, how wouldn't I know that they were

    7 soldiers? I saw all the equipment that an army

    8 carries, both ours and theirs. I saw the uniforms, I

    9 saw that they were soldiers. I recognised them.

    10 That's what they were. Exactly that. They were

    11 equipped with uniforms, they were military in

    12 appearance.

    13 MR. MOSKOWITZ: At this time, I would ask the

    14 usher to show to the witness previously entered Exhibit

    15 32, P32, yes.

    16 Q. Now, Witness M, could you look at your TV

    17 screen and tell us if you recognise what is shown

    18 there, and this is previously admitted Exhibit 32. Can

    19 you tell us what that shows?

    20 A. Yes, I can. I can say quite freely that on

    21 the picture you can see Vlatko Kupreskic's house.

    22 Q. Now, does this --

    23 A. That's it.

    24 Q. Does this picture show --

    25 A. Mm.

  12. 1 Q. -- where you saw the truck the day before the

    2 attack?

    3 A. No. It shows the entrance from the road into

    4 Vlatko's house. The road was down below, and that's

    5 Vlatko's house. I looked at that house for five

    6 months, just as I'm looking at it now. I passed by it

    7 several times, both down below and from the top part.

    8 I would return home using the top part.

    9 Q. Just to clarify something. You mentioned a

    10 basement a little while ago and that the soldiers went

    11 into a basement. Was the basement located in this

    12 house where you saw the soldiers go?

    13 A. Below. Down below the house, and the house

    14 is up above, above this level.

    15 Q. And when you saw the soldiers go into the

    16 basement, did you see the soldiers before they went

    17 into the basement? Did you see them coming out of the

    18 truck or were they already out of the truck when you

    19 first saw them?

    20 A. I saw them getting out, getting down from the

    21 truck. They probably couldn't -- could not have just

    22 disappeared into the ground. They entered somewhere

    23 down below. Whether it was a basement or a storage of

    24 some kind, a warehouse, that's where they went. They

    25 would go down towards that level.

  13. 1 Q. Now, did you tell anyone what you had seen

    2 that day, tell your husband or anyone else that you had

    3 seen some soldiers coming out of a truck and

    4 entering --

    5 A. No, no.

    6 Q. Why --

    7 A. I didn't think of doing that. I didn't think

    8 why they had come, what they were doing there, why they

    9 were there. This was something that I didn't think

    10 about at all, and I didn't think that I -- I didn't say

    11 anything, no.

    12 Q. Now, I want to focus your attention to the

    13 morning of the next day, the day of April 16, 1993.

    14 Could you tell us what you remember of that day?

    15 A. Yes, I can. On that day, I remember in the

    16 morning of the 16th of April, it was a Friday, I was

    17 sleeping up in Redzib's weekend house with his

    18 daughter. She had two children. She was alone.

    19 I slept there at their place.

    20 In the morning, about twenty or twenty-five

    21 minutes to six, there was gunfire around the weekend

    22 cottage, on the window panes and the doors, and we left

    23 the -- we went out of that weekend cottage and went up

    24 towards Redzib's house. It was raining.

    25 We stopped there a little while. We couldn't

  14. 1 stay, and we went towards the hill. We went up to

    2 Vrhovine. That is a village. We were told that we

    3 couldn't stay there either, because the village would

    4 be granaded. And we went further on, up to the village

    5 of Poculica. We came there. We spent ten days with a

    6 man there.

    7 On the eleventh day, they displaced us from

    8 there and sent us to a Croatian house. We spent only

    9 three days there, and then they moved us again to

    10 another Croatian house, and we stayed there until

    11 Slimena fell, near Travnik.

    12 Then from the command headquarters they gave

    13 us a car, a vehicle came to fetch us, and took us to

    14 Slimena, to a third Croatian house. We stayed there

    15 for two and a half years.

    16 When Karaula fell, when Karaula was liberated

    17 and when a Serb village named Varosluk fell up, up

    18 above Turbe, we went there to(redacted), and that

    19 was the seventh place we stayed at, our seventh

    20 homestead. And now we're nowhere actually, and we

    21 didn't go anywhere else.

    22 Q. Now, Witness M, I would like to ask just a

    23 couple of questions to clarify some of that.

    24 You said that on the 16th of April, in

    25 Ahmici, you spent the evening before the attack

  15. 1 sleeping at a weekend house. How close --

    2 A. Yes, just prior to the attack. I spent the

    3 time in this weekend cottage, Redzib's cottage.

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)?

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted).

    8 Q. Now, when you fled from Ahmici, from the

    9 weekend house, did you see any burning in the village?

    10 A. Yes, I did, and anybody could have seen that

    11 who was alive to see it. Everybody could see that.

    12 We didn't move away from Redzib's house much, some 50

    13 metres away, and the whole of the village was in

    14 flames. And we couldn't see anything else, just the

    15 fire, the flames, and we heard shooting, nothing else.

    16 And we just moved up, further up.

    17 Q. Do you recall any particular houses you can

    18 identify that you saw on fire as you fled from Ahmici?

    19 A. Yes, I remember the houses, but I don't know

    20 if I could recognise them now because they were

    21 alight. You know, when a house is on fire, the house

    22 is no longer -- no longer stands complete. I know all

    23 the houses, but once they're set afire to, I don't

    24 know. I don't know if I could recognise any of them

    25 now.

  16. 1 Q. And just one final question: Do you remember

    2 what time of day it was? And now I'm talking about the

    3 day before the attack when you saw the soldiers around

    4 Vlatko's house, about what time of day it was that you

    5 saw that.

    6 A. It was in the evening hours. I didn't look

    7 at my watch. My daughter had come back home from work,

    8 she went to work that day in Slimena in Olip. I don't

    9 know what the time was, but it was just before about

    10 dusk, roundabout dusk. It was still daylight, but I

    11 don't know the exact time. I didn't look to see.

    12 MR. MOSKOWITZ: May I have just a moment,

    13 Mr. President?

    14 We have no more questions for this witness,

    15 and request that Exhibit 178 be admitted under seal.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    17 A. Thank you and good-bye.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: No, no. Witness M, you must

    19 remain here, and I will turn to Counsel Pavkovic to

    20 ask --

    21 A. All right.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: -- which counsel are going to

    23 cross-examine the witness.

    24 MR. PAVKOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. I

    25 should like to inform you that the Counsel Krajina,

  17. 1 Ranko Radovic and, I believe, Ms. Slokovic-Glumac, will

    2 be interrogating the witness.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel Krajina?

    4 Cross-examined by Mr. Krajina:

    5 MR. KRAJINA: Good morning, Your Honours.

    6 Q. Please, Madam, I just have one question to

    7 ask of you. You said that you lived at the house of

    8 (redacted)?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Did you, on the 15th of April, 1993, see

    11 (redacted)?

    12 A. No, I didn't see that man at all. Whether

    13 he'd gone somewhere I don't know, but he wasn't there.

    14 Q. Who was with you in the house, do you

    15 remember?

    16 A. Yes, I do.

    17 Q. On that particular day, who was with you?

    18 A. (redacted) was with me, my daughter, my son

    19 was there, who had had an operation. He had his

    20 appendix out and he was at home.

    21 Q. Very well. Did (redacted) come to your house at

    22 all that day -- go home that day?

    23 A. I don't know. I just don't know.

    24 Q. You don't know? Did you see him at all that

    25 day?

  18. 1 A. Yes, I did. Of course, I did.

    2 Q. Where did you see him?

    3 A.(redacted) was at home, but at that particular

    4 time, during the time that I was at the water tap, I

    5 don't know. He spent the night in his house, and in

    6 the morning they fled as well.

    7 Q. No, I'm asking you about the day before the

    8 attack, on the 15th of April.

    9 A. On Thursday you mean. Yes, he was at home.

    10 (redacted) was at home.

    11 Q. He was at home?

    12 A. Yes, he was.

    13 Q. Did he go any somewhere, leave his home at

    14 all that day?

    15 A. I don't know. I can't say. I can't tell you

    16 what I didn't see.

    17 Q. Just a moment. Did you spend the whole day

    18 at home?

    19 A. Were you at home the whole day?

    20 A. No.

    21 Q. Where did you go when you were not at home?

    22 A. I wasn't at home the whole day.

    23 Q. Well, where were you that day? Where did you

    24 go?

    25 A. We went visiting to upper Ahmici.

  19. 1 Q. When did you go visiting?

    2 A. Well, in the morning, about lunch time.

    3 Q. Who went with you?

    4 A. (redacted) wife, I, myself, (redacted)

    5 (redacted). We went up there.

    6 Q. How long did you stay?

    7 A. Well, about two and a half hours.

    8 Q. Did you all come back together?

    9 A. Yes, we all came back together.

    10 Q. Where was (redacted) at that time?

    11 A. I don't know. Probably went somewhere. I

    12 don't know where he was.

    13 Q. Was he in the house when you returned?

    14 A. I don't know.

    15 Q. You don't know?

    16 A. I don't know. I can't say.

    17 Q. When you left for this visit?

    18 A. I don't know.

    19 Q. You don't know that either?

    20 A. I didn't pay any attention to that, because I

    21 was in one room, they were in the other room.

    22 Q. Did you see him at all that day?

    23 A. Yes, I did see (redacted) the morning and would

    24 I see him every morning. I had to see him every

    25 morning because he had breakfast with us every morning

  20. 1 and drank coffee with us.

    2 Q. Well, would he go out somewhere?

    3 A. Yes, he went out.

    4 Q. When would he return?

    5 A. Roundabout -- well, in the evening.

    6 Q. In the evening you say?

    7 A. Yes. (redacted) come back in the evening as

    8 it became dark. He would be working with the Croat

    9 neighbours, at the Croat neighbour's house.

    10 Q. Did you see him come back that particular day

    11 if he did come back from work that day?

    12 A. No, I didn't. Whether he went out anywhere

    13 to work that day I don't know. I just know that he was

    14 at home in the morning, and we went up to the village

    15 later on.

    16 Q. Thank you. Mr. President, I have no further

    17 questions.

    18 A. Thank you.

    19 JUDGE CASESSE: Thank you, Counsel Krajina.

    20 Counsel Radovic.

    21 Cross-examined by Mr. Radovic:

    22 Q. You said that you had three sons and a

    23 husband. I should like to know whether any of your

    24 sons had served the army or had joined the Territorial

    25 Defence Forces?

  21. 1 A. All three of them were with the army.

    2 Q. So they were not with you in the house?

    3 A. They would be in the house when they came

    4 from the so-called lines. They would come for a rest,

    5 for a night or two.

    6 Q. But on the 15th of April, the day prior to

    7 the attack, were they with you or were they at the

    8 frontlines?

    9 A. Two were not with me, they were at the

    10 frontlines.

    11 Q. And the third one?

    12 A. He had had an operation and was --

    13 Q. Was he in the house on that day?

    14 A. Yes, he was.

    15 Q. Tell me about the son who came from the

    16 front-line, and was he at the house on the eve of the

    17 attack. Did he have a uniform on?

    18 A. Yes, he was wearing a uniform. He came

    19 wearing a uniform, which is normal in the army.

    20 Q. And when you were fleeing from the house, was

    21 he fleeing wearing his uniform or in mufti?

    22 A. No, he was in his uniform.

    23 Q. And it was in the uniform that he was

    24 fleeing?

    25 A. Yes. He went out of the house in the

  22. 1 uniform. He was sick. He was due to appear before a

    2 medical board in three days and then after that to

    3 return to the front-line. He could not appear before

    4 that Commission, and the very third day he was

    5 returned.

    6 Q. No, no. You didn't understand what I asked.

    7 On that morning when your son was fleeing, was he

    8 fleeing in a uniform or civilian clothes?

    9 A. He was in a uniform.

    10 Q. And to Vrhovine he went with you, in the

    11 uniform?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Did he bring with him any weapons?

    14 A. No, he had not brought any weapons. They

    15 never did that. They would leave the arms in Travnik,

    16 up there in Travnik.

    17 Q. Why was that so?

    18 A. I don't know.

    19 Q. Didn't they tell you why that was so?

    20 A. No, they didn't. They just never brought

    21 anything home, they would just come bare armed, as it

    22 were.

    23 Q. And when your sons were at home, and this son

    24 when he was at home, did they take any part in the

    25 patrolling of the Territorial Defence Forces in the

  23. 1 area?

    2 A. Yes, they would go out overnight there. They

    3 would patrol the village, walk around the village.

    4 Q. Did they have any scheduled duty from the

    5 Territorial Defence, the actual scheduled hours when

    6 they were supposed to patrol the village?

    7 A. I presume they did, because they had to go

    8 out, and as they did go out, I presume that they did,

    9 but they didn't have any armaments.

    10 Q. But did anyone give them any weapons for the

    11 patrol duty?

    12 A. I don't know that. No one brought any

    13 weapons to the house, and I'm not sure whether somebody

    14 gave them any weapons out there, outside.

    15 Q. But do you know what the patrolling was

    16 like?

    17 A. No, I have no idea. They would leave at

    18 night, and we ourselves never left the house at night.

    19 Q. That's as far as the sons are concerned.

    20 What about your husband, was he involved in Territorial

    21 Defence activities?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Did he have any weapons?

    24 A. No.

    25 Q. What was he doing in the Territorial

  24. 1 Defence?

    2 A. Well, I really don't know.

    3 Q. Did he have any duty?

    4 A. No, I really don't know. I just know that

    5 they went with (redacted), and they would walk

    6 around.

    7 Q. Now, your husband who was just with the

    8 Territorial Defence force, did he have any uniform?

    9 A. No, no. He only had his civilian clothes

    10 which he wore.

    11 Q. When he patrolled he would also wear civilian

    12 clothes?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. And your sons, when they came from the

    15 front-line, when they went patrolling did they do so in

    16 uniforms or civilian clothes?

    17 A. It depended. Sometimes in civilian clothes.

    18 Q. It was not a definite apparel?

    19 A. No, no. Sometimes they would just wear

    20 whatever they had on, and sometimes they would put on

    21 civilian clothes because the uniforms had to be washed

    22 and they had to return to the frontlines in a couple of

    23 days, and it would only take a short while.

    24 Q. Now, that part is over. Can I ask you; when

    25 you fled, they put you up in Croatian houses, in two

  25. 1 Croatian houses, rather?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Tell me, did you know what had happened to

    4 the Croats who were the owners of those houses? Were

    5 they --

    6 A. No, we didn't know. I don't know anything.

    7 Q. But they must have been exiled. You came to

    8 empty houses.

    9 A. I don't know. We came there, we didn't see

    10 anything.

    11 Q. But what had happened to those people? Had

    12 they fled or where were the owners of those houses?

    13 A. I don't know. I have no idea. I had no way

    14 of knowing. We didn't see anyone there. They had

    15 left, I think. We didn't see anyone.

    16 Q. Did you talk to the owners of those houses?

    17 But various stories were bandied around the village, so

    18 the Muslims must have talked among themselves what had

    19 happened to the owners of those husbands. Did you talk

    20 to the Muslims what had happened to them?

    21 A. I was not interested in all of that. I had

    22 my own problems. I had had surgery. I had a fresh

    23 wound, a sutured wound, and I had just been discharged

    24 from the hospital. I really didn't care. I didn't see

    25 anyone. I only know that I kept walking and fleeing.

  26. 1 Q. I appreciate all of that. Yeah, I know, but

    2 I would like to know what happened to the owners of

    3 those Croatian houses. Were they also walking on and

    4 fleeing?

    5 A. Probably, yes, they were, of course. All of

    6 us were.

    7 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Mr. President, I would like

    8 to interpose an objection at this point, that these

    9 questions have now been asked multiple times and the

    10 answer has always been she doesn't know, and we would

    11 request that perhaps Defence attorney, Mr. Radovic,

    12 might move on to another topic.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Counsel Radovic, I

    14 wonder whether you could kindly move on to another

    15 question. It is true that you have already put this

    16 question many times.

    17 Sorry, there's no translation.

    18 THE INTERPRETER: I translated.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: We didn't hear any

    20 translation into English.

    21 THE INTERPRETER: There was a translation.

    22 MR. RADOVIC: I shall repeat. I shall repeat

    23 what I've just said. I've just said that the witness

    24 was just about to answer the question, and she started

    25 her story when Mr. Moskowitz interrupted, but never

  27. 1 mind, I shall continue.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: No. I had the feeling that

    3 the witness said that she did not know, and she was not

    4 interested in knowing where the Croatian owners of

    5 those houses were. I see -- of course, I do appreciate

    6 the relevance of your point, but I think the witness

    7 has already answered that she was not in a position to

    8 answer. She did not know.

    9 MR. RADOVIC: I believe that I have gathered

    10 more or less what it is about, so I shall not pursue

    11 this line of questioning anymore.

    12 Q. You said that you ended up in a village which

    13 was predominantly populated by Serbs.

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Will you now tell me what happened to the

    16 Serb owner of that house and what had happened to

    17 the Serbs of that village?

    18 A. The Serbs from that village had gone, and who

    19 was in the houses, I really don't know. Whether it was

    20 only the army or old people, I really don't know.

    21 Q. Do you know why they had left? Did they go

    22 at the moment when the B and H army had taken the

    23 village or at some other time, or do you not know at

    24 all why they had left, which is not all that important?

    25 A. They had gone. That's all I know.

  28. 1 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now let us go back to the

    2 16th of April, the day the attack started, where there

    3 were various statements for various witnesses. You

    4 said that it was raining. Are you certain that it was

    5 raining?

    6 A. Yes, I am certain it was raining. How would

    7 I not be certain? It was raining. And I had nothing

    8 on me; I was wearing nothing. I had just what I was

    9 wearing when we got up in the morning. We went out and

    10 we were barefoot and had no overcoats or anything.

    11 Q. Was it raining heavily? Were you wet when

    12 you went up?

    13 A. No. There was a drizzle. We did get up to

    14 the hill wet and hungry, but we dried off.

    15 Q. Can we say that there was just a drizzle, no

    16 heavy rainfall?

    17 A. That's right, there was a drizzle, light

    18 rain. I know that I was very muddy and that my

    19 children were muddy and my daughter, and we sat around

    20 in the house where they took us in from Friday to

    21 Sunday.

    22 Q. Well, I'm not interested in what happened

    23 later on, I'm just interested in that time. Very

    24 well. Thank you.

    25 Can you describe the uniforms that the

  29. 1 soldiers, you had seen the day before the attack, were

    2 wearing?

    3 A. Well, the uniforms were the kind of

    4 multi-coloured or HVO camouflage uniform.

    5 Q. You said that they were patterned. Is it

    6 what we call a camouflage uniform?

    7 A. Well, I don't know.

    8 Q. The pattern, different colours.

    9 A. Yes, that's right.

    10 MR. RADOVIC: Thank you very much.

    11 Mr. President, I have no further questions to

    12 ask the witness.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel Radovic.

    14 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac?

    15 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you,

    16 Mr. President. I have no questions of the witness. My

    17 colleague has exhausted them all.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Moskowitz,

    19 would you like to re-examine the witness?

    20 MR. MOSKOWITZ: We have no re-examination

    21 questions. Thank you.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I have one

    23 question which is a follow-up to what Counsel Radovic

    24 asked you.

    25 Witness M, you said that at one point, at

  30. 1 some stage after the 16th of April, you went to a

    2 village, and I can't remember the name of that village,

    3 but where you were put up in a Croatian house. My

    4 question is as follows: Were there any Croats in that

    5 village when you went there and were given --

    6 A. No.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Who was then --

    8 A. No, there was nobody. There were no Croats.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Only Muslims?

    10 A. Only Muslims.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    12 A. Thank you too.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: I think there is probably no

    14 objection to the witness being released.

    15 Witness M, thank you so much for coming here

    16 to give evidence in court. You may now be released.

    17 A. Thank you too.

    18 (The witness withdrew)

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: So we move on to the former

    20 Witness 4, which is now Witness 2?

    21 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Mr. President, this may be a

    22 good time to finish the unfinished business of Friday

    23 in which I think Defence counsel were going to make a

    24 presentation. I say this may be a good time because we

    25 are, I think, bringing some witnesses over, and we're

  31. 1 not exactly sure they're precisely here yet, but we

    2 know that they are coming, so this may be a good time

    3 for that.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Yes. I turn to

    5 Counsel Pavkovic to ask whether the Defence counsel are

    6 prepared to set out their views on the issue discussed

    7 on Friday, actually raised by the Defence; namely, the

    8 question of contacts between the Prosecution and their

    9 witnesses and, in future, the Defence and their

    10 witnesses.

    11 Have you reached a joint position so that one

    12 of you can speak on behalf of everybody?

    13 MR. PAVKOVIC: Yes, we have, Your Honours. I

    14 think that my colleague, Mr. Moskowitz, has made good

    15 use of the time. I will be fairly brief in presenting

    16 the stand of the Defence. It is a united stand, and I

    17 speak on behalf of all my colleagues.

    18 The Defence counsel reviewed the numerous

    19 aspects of this particular issue and have weighed many

    20 reasons, both for and against the motion that they put

    21 forward. They started out in their conclusions from

    22 the following premise: First of all, we are very

    23 grateful to the Trial Chamber for assessing this issue

    24 as an important one in the light that it was presented

    25 and for enabling us to present our views.

  32. 1 The Defence, first of all, assess that it is

    2 acceptable, that the thesis put forward by the

    3 Prosecutor is acceptable in the portion which he

    4 presented on Friday, the 18th of September, that the

    5 witness, having appeared before the Trial Chamber, is a

    6 court witness from that time on, regardless of the

    7 party that brought him to the courtroom and that he is

    8 duty-bound to speak the truth according to the oath

    9 that he has taken.

    10 However, the Defence take note of the

    11 following fact, and this came from amongst our ranks,

    12 that the question of prohibiting contacts with

    13 witnesses should be made when the Prosecutor has

    14 already listened to a considerable number of witnesses

    15 called by him, particularly the important ones, and in

    16 the proceedings so far, in the proceedings that have

    17 taken place, that he could have had an advantage.

    18 In this connection, the Defence would like to

    19 express our concern that this could lead to a

    20 imbalance in the parties, an unequal position for the

    21 two parties, if we were to accept another regime,

    22 another system, and thereby upset the right of the

    23 accused to a just and fair trial.

    24 The Defence further takes note that in this

    25 Trial Chamber, we have witnesses called with specific

  33. 1 characteristics; that is to say, they are also the

    2 victims of the events that took place or they are

    3 individuals who have suffered personal losses, so that

    4 witnesses of this kind are very sensitive in the areas

    5 they are questioned on and so their statements too

    6 could wield influence.

    7 Therefore, it would be a good idea if we were

    8 to bear in mind the fact that in these contacts, we

    9 have, in fact, before us situations where we encourage

    10 the witness to recall the events of the past when

    11 suggestions are made to him to recall the situation and

    12 the events.

    13 Before I present our views, our final views,

    14 I would like to say that Defence counsel bore in mind

    15 the legal understanding presented by Judge Mumba on

    16 Friday, and bearing in mind the Furundzija case and the

    17 initiative taken by the Defence counsel in that case to

    18 prohibit contact.

    19 On the basis of these views and situations,

    20 Defence counsel feel as follows: They feel that from

    21 the moment when the witness is brought before the Trial

    22 Chamber and makes the formal declaration that he will

    23 speak the truth when he takes the oath, from that

    24 moment on, he becomes a court witness. Therefore,

    25 there can be no further contacts with the witness by

  34. 1 anybody, regardless of who brought the witness to the

    2 courtroom, whether it was the Prosecution or the

    3 Defence, without, of course, a decision by the Trial

    4 Chamber.

    5 If this were to be the subject of discussion,

    6 Defence counsel consider that we should bear in mind an

    7 exception from this general view, and that is that at

    8 the proposal of the parties concerned, or the witness

    9 himself, and having received authorisation by the Trial

    10 Chamber and under its supervision, in special cases

    11 contacts could be allowed, in extraordinary cases.

    12 Defence counsel would like to remind the

    13 Trial Chamber that this view, presented by them, does

    14 not have any basis in rules of proceedings but that it

    15 can be in keeping with the spirit of the Statute and

    16 general legal proceedings which ensure that during a

    17 hearing we get as close to the truth and see the truth

    18 as it stands.

    19 Finally, we should like to request that the

    20 Trial Chamber bear in mind what we have just said and

    21 that it should consider all the different aspects of

    22 this issue and give a ruling in the matter. Thank you.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I wonder whether

    24 the Prosecution would like to comment? No. Not

    25 necessary.

  35. 1 Yes, your position was very clear.

    2 All right. Well, I would like to thank

    3 Counsel Pavkovic and all the other counsel for their

    4 position. Now it is very clear to us what the position

    5 of both the Defence and the Prosecution is, and we will

    6 rule on this matter probably by tomorrow morning.

    7 I suggest that we now should break and we

    8 will reconvene at quarter past eleven sharp.

    9 --- Recess taken at 10.47 a.m.

    10 --- On resuming at 11.18 a.m.

    11 (The witness entered court).

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: First of all, I will ask the

    13 witness to read out the solemn declaration. Could you

    14 please stand and read out the solemn declaration?

    15 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    17 truth.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    19 seated.


    21 Examined by Mr. Terrier:

    22 Q. Witness, would you care to give out your full

    23 identity and say when you were born and who you are?

    24 A. Certainly. I am Major Michael Dooley and I

    25 was born on the 15th of March, 1966.

  36. 1 Q. Could you state to the Tribunal what your

    2 present assignment is?

    3 A. I am the operations officer of One Brigade

    4 which forms a part of the Allied Rapid Reaction Corps

    5 in the NATO headquarters, joint headquarters in

    6 Rheindahlen.

    7 Q. Could you state what your professional

    8 background and experience is and what your training

    9 was?

    10 A. Certainly. I joined the army in 1990 and

    11 joined the Royal Corps Signals. In 1992, I was

    12 assigned as a platoon commander to the First Battalion,

    13 the Cheshire regiment, for a tour of about 18 months,

    14 and there I was a Warrior platoon commander. After

    15 that, I went to Catterick, where I was an infantry

    16 advisor to the Royal Signals, and my next assignment

    17 was to 20 Armoured Brigade as an operations officer. I

    18 was then sent to the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst,

    19 where I was an instructor there, and then recently, I

    20 have been posted to my current assignment, which is the

    21 operations officer within One Brigade.

    22 Q. When were you assigned or were you sent to

    23 Bosnia and Herzegovina?

    24 A. I was posted, what we call Operation

    25 Grapple 1, which was in October 1992, and we left in

  37. 1 May 1993.

    2 Q. What was your mission? What were you

    3 supposed to do in Bosnia during that time?

    4 A. Our initial mission was to protect UNHCR

    5 convoys providing humanitarian aid to victims of the

    6 area.

    7 Q. You were a platoon commander in Bosnia,

    8 weren't you?

    9 A. That is correct, yes.

    10 Q. Could you tell us how a platoon is made up?

    11 What is the composition of a platoon?

    12 A. Certainly. There were approximately 36

    13 soldiers in the platoon, and the platoon had four

    14 armoured vehicles called Warriors under command.

    15 Q. I would like us to turn to the period

    16 preceding April 1993. You were then an observer in

    17 that area. Could you tell us what you witnessed as to

    18 the forces present in the area of Vitez? Did you see

    19 forces from the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina? Did

    20 you see HVO forces? Could you tell this to the

    21 Tribunal?

    22 A. Certainly. Could I just clarify one point?

    23 Do you want me to go from the start of the tour, from

    24 October, or immediately preceding April?

    25 Q. Well, a period that stretches from October

  38. 1 '92 up to April 1993.

    2 A. Certainly. Initially, the area was divided

    3 into a number of localised groups of mainly Croatian

    4 and BiH troops. The general concentrations were:

    5 Travnik was strongly BiH, Vitez was mostly Croatian,

    6 although there were BiH there, and then it was a

    7 mixture as you went through the Lasva Valley between

    8 Croatian and BiH troops.

    9 Q. What did you think of the condition in which

    10 the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina was at that time?

    11 How was it armed? What was its equipment?

    12 A. Certainly. They were weak in most areas with

    13 the exception of Travnik where they were well-armed

    14 with -- when I say "well-armed," they only had

    15 automatic weapons. I never saw anything of any

    16 reasonable calibre. Certainly in Vitez, all I saw were

    17 light automatic weapons and not very many of them. As

    18 you went out of Vitez, again small arms only for the

    19 ABiH. The Croatians had a number of heavier calibre

    20 weapons; for example, they had a .50 calibre automatic

    21 anti-aircraft gun mounted on top of a flatbed truck

    22 which they used occasionally.

    23 Q. In the weeks preceding the 16th of April,

    24 1993, let us say during the first two weeks of April

    25 1993, did you notice that there were forces of the army

  39. 1 of Bosnia and Herzegovina in the region of Ahmici?

    2 A. No, there were no BiH soldiers in the area of

    3 Ahmici. There were a few, and not very many -- I mean,

    4 hardly any at all -- in Vitez itself. The bulk of the

    5 soldiers were over towards Travnik.

    6 Q. In the weeks preceding the 16th of April,

    7 1993, did you sense that the situation was changing in

    8 terms of relations between the various communities?

    9 A. Yes. There was increased tensions, many

    10 instants of shooting in the whole of the valley,

    11 really, stretching from Travnik right through Vitez and

    12 down towards Kiseljak.

    13 Q. Could you tell us how that day of the 16th of

    14 April, 1993, was for you, to the best of your

    15 recollection? You were on duty, weren't you?

    16 A. Yes, I was. As it happens, I was the

    17 operations officer early in the morning, and then at

    18 6.00 in the morning -- I had gone to bed then maybe at

    19 2.00. At 6.00, I was working by one of my platoons and

    20 there was large explosions caused by a very large

    21 calibre mortar which had been firing on occasion

    22 throughout the tour, but those explosions caused me to

    23 get out of bed very quickly and move to the operations

    24 room.

    25 My battalion second-in-command, Major

  40. 1 Watters, then told me to go and investigate what was

    2 happening in Vitez town itself. I estimate the time I

    3 got to Vitez town would be about half past 6.00 maybe,

    4 in the morning.

    5 Vitez town, there was a lot of smoke from the

    6 initial buildings as you enter the town, and there was

    7 a lot of firing going on although, because of the

    8 echoes with the buildings, it was very difficult to

    9 trace where the firing was.

    10 So on our initial pass, we went through the

    11 centre of the town trying to identify where the firing

    12 was coming from. We then radioed in where we thought

    13 the firing was coming from, which was the area of the

    14 stadium in Vitez, and we went and investigated that

    15 area where indeed we saw troops shooting into houses

    16 and setting fire to houses using incendiary grenades.

    17 Do you want me to carry on through the day?

    18 Q. Well, could you specify which troops you saw

    19 on that morning in Vitez and which units did they

    20 belong to?

    21 A. I couldn't specify the exact units. I know

    22 they were Croatian troops. I recognised their

    23 uniforms, et cetera, and they were -- when I saw them,

    24 they were only shooting at civilians, and there were no

    25 BiH troops in Vitez. There were no BiH casualties in

  41. 1 uniform, they were all civilians.

    2 Q. Could you carry on that story of the day as

    3 it went?

    4 A. Certainly. I was then told to go north of

    5 Vitez to a village, the name escapes me, because there

    6 were threats or there was a chance of shooting going on

    7 up there.

    8 When I got to that village, everything seemed

    9 fine, although the villagers were hiding behind walls,

    10 but there was no signs of fighting that I could see.

    11 Meanwhile, the fighting was continuing in

    12 Vitez town, so we went back to Vitez.

    13 It is important to note that whenever we

    14 arrived in an area of Vitez, the fighting in that

    15 immediate area would stop. The troops, Croatian

    16 troops, would go to ground, would just wait until such

    17 a point as we left. And normally, when we went to

    18 ground or we stopped, the fighting would happen

    19 somewhere else in the town and we would hear that, so

    20 we would go elsewhere and it would start, maybe the

    21 area we just left.

    22 At some point around lunch time, it came over

    23 my radio to go to the village of Ahmici where there was

    24 reported instants of fighting there. So I drove to

    25 Ahmici from Vitez with the four Warriors and drove down

  42. 1 the main road -- maybe I can show you. Here

    2 (indicating). And I drove up to the car park, which is

    3 just north of the cemetery here, and then drove back

    4 again, and all I was doing at this point was seeing

    5 what was going on in this area here (indicating), only

    6 from the road.

    7 I then radioed in to my officer commanding,

    8 Major Martin Thomas, what was happening. I said there

    9 was a lot of dead people on the sides of the road near

    10 the houses, and as far as I could see, although there

    11 was the occasional shot coming down from the south-west,

    12 there was no resistance and nobody alive that I could

    13 see.

    14 There were some locals in this area here

    15 (indicating) who wanted to get to their dead, so I told

    16 my officer commanding this. He said to wait until he

    17 sent some reinforcements, which was a light cavalry

    18 troop of four scimitars and an armoured ambulance, and

    19 so I waited for them to the south-east here in a car

    20 park until the reinforcements arrived from Vitez camp.

    21 Q. So this was your first visit to Ahmici,

    22 wasn't it? What time was it when you first got to

    23 Ahmici?

    24 A. It was approximately noon.

    25 Q. So you were leading four armoured vehicles;

  43. 1 is that right?

    2 A. That's correct, yes.

    3 Q. You yourself, which vehicle were you in?

    4 A. I would always be in the forward most

    5 vehicle. The composition of the platoon, the four

    6 armoured vehicles, were such that there would always be

    7 me in the lead, followed by one of my corporals in a

    8 second Warrior, followed by my platoon sergeants --

    9 this is slightly confusing. I have two platoon

    10 sergeants: one is a Warrior platoon sergeant, he

    11 commands an armoured vehicle, he would be in the third

    12 vehicle, and then his corporal would be in the fourth

    13 vehicle, and that was always the format that we used.

    14 Q. During this first visit to Ahmici, did you

    15 notice that there was firing?

    16 A. Yes. On the initial visit, though, it wasn't

    17 great, but there was sufficient that we were unwilling

    18 to go investigating random shooting. But it wasn't a

    19 great deal of firing, it was just the occasional shot.

    20 Q. So it is during this initial visit that a

    21 video film was taken by one of your men; is that right?

    22 A. That is correct. It was on the initial pass,

    23 yes.

    24 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, is it possible

    25 to see this video clip? You are aware of it already

  44. 1 because it was seen during the testimony of Witness G,

    2 but since Major Dooley is here with us, I would like

    3 him to make comment, if any. This is Exhibit 120.

    4 Can we see this?

    5 (Videotape played)

    6 Q. Major Dooley, please go ahead with your

    7 comments, if you have any, when you wish to do so.

    8 A. Certainly. This is obviously the view from

    9 the road, and this is very much what we saw in the

    10 initial pass. As you can see, as far as we were aware,

    11 there was nobody alive at this point. There were a

    12 number of dead bodies, perhaps more than is shown on

    13 this video. We could see them through the doors and

    14 beside the housing, and all it seemed to us at this

    15 point was that it was a clean-up operation.

    16 There was occasional firing from the high

    17 ground behind you there, and perhaps -- it doesn't show

    18 so well in the video here, but there was a lot of smoke

    19 which obscured the view to the extreme north-west.

    20 In this particular scene, the very front

    21 vehicle that you just saw was where I was, and this

    22 would be my platoon sergeant who is videoing at the

    23 moment.

    24 I never saw anybody alive. My platoon

    25 sergeant obviously caught this on camera, but I never

  45. 1 actually saw anybody; otherwise, that would have

    2 influenced, perhaps, a few things I did later.

    3 This is later on the clean-up operation which

    4 would have probably been past number 2, and the reason

    5 I say that is we're not under fire here, which happens

    6 later on, and I would estimate that in this particular

    7 scene, I would be behind the building that's on the

    8 left-hand side of the screen.

    9 Q. Speaking of your second pass in Ahmici from

    10 the main road, do you remember whether there was a lot

    11 of firing?

    12 A. Yes. Each pass that happened, it became

    13 increasingly more violent. The first pass, not a great

    14 deal happened. We saw that from the video.

    15 The second pass -- I estimate this is

    16 probably the second pass because we're not under a

    17 great deal of fire here. We took -- I can show on the

    18 map. We took the dead, which I would probably estimate

    19 around six in number because that's all we could get in

    20 the ambulance, from this area here (indicating), which

    21 I think is what they're showing on the map -- on the

    22 video, to the car park here where we had seen some

    23 Muslims earlier trying to get to their dead, and line

    24 them up on the car park so that they could get to their

    25 dead.

  46. 1 And then we drove -- once we had done that,

    2 we drove back again to this area for a third time.

    3 Do you want to carry on?

    4 Q. Please do.

    5 A. On the third pass, we came back again with

    6 more bodies from roughly the same area, but the

    7 shooting was beginning to increase, and we had to form

    8 a wall using the Warriors lined up end to end, so that

    9 any bullets that were coming from this area here,

    10 firing down this way (indicating), wouldn't hit us. We

    11 formed a horizontal wall, I would say, using the

    12 Warriors, all facing up the hill, and then brought the

    13 ambulance in behind, and then we all moved the bodies

    14 into the ambulance, so that the armoured vehicle was

    15 between us and any shooting.

    16 Although it looks very clear here, the smoke

    17 was such that we couldn't see where the shooting was

    18 coming from. All we could tell was it was a very large

    19 calibre, I estimate about .50, and we can tell that by

    20 the size of the tracer round that was going through the

    21 smoke towards us. We couldn't engage it -- we would

    22 have engaged it if we had been fired at -- we couldn't

    23 engage it because we couldn't identify the target

    24 because of the smoke.

    25 On the third pass, we came back here,

  47. 1 unloaded the bodies, but there was beginning to be

    2 firing down here. There hadn't been firing down here

    3 before on our earlier passes. It was beginning to, but

    4 we lined up maybe another five to six casualties there,

    5 making somewhere between ten and twelve. I forget how

    6 many. But there was no sign of anybody around here at

    7 that point. The people who were waiting for the

    8 casualties before had gone.

    9 On our fourth pass, we came back to here --

    10 again, at this point, I had seen nobody alive. I

    11 hadn't seen what the platoon sergeant had seen on the

    12 video. On the fourth pass, the firing was becoming

    13 very intense and the soldiers were getting fired into

    14 the buildings near where they were evacuating dead

    15 people. So as far as I could see, there was no point

    16 in staying there and maybe getting one of my soldiers

    17 wounded because there was nobody alive to protect, so

    18 what was the point picking up casualties? You can do

    19 that any time. There was certainly nobody even

    20 wounded. They were all dead as far as I could see.

    21 We then took those people back to this area

    22 here (indicating), and we came under fire at this point

    23 from two directions, from this direction and from this

    24 direction (indicating), and it was sufficiently great

    25 for me not to unload any casualties there, to keep

  48. 1 everybody inside the Warriors, because, again, my

    2 soldiers would become injured for no reason.

    3 It was at this point that I made the decision

    4 to move those dead people back to Vitez town where I

    5 was told that there was a medical centre, and so I took

    6 them to the town itself.

    7 As it happens, I took them to a Croatian

    8 medical centre -- I didn't realise it was Croatian at

    9 the time -- I took them there, and we unloaded the dead

    10 people in a morgue that was beside a makeshift

    11 operating theatre.

    12 Q. Could one say that between the first and the

    13 fourth pass, the situation had worsened in Ahmici due

    14 to the firing that was more intense, more heavy firing

    15 then?

    16 A. Absolutely, yes, that's exactly what

    17 happened.

    18 Q. You also stated that on your third pass, you

    19 had seen heavy calibre firing coming from inside the

    20 village. Could you specify, be more precise, as to the

    21 areas from where the firing came?

    22 A. Within Ahmici itself on that day, there was

    23 only one area firing ever came from, although we could

    24 not see it, we knew the direction, and it was

    25 approximately here (indicating), and as I say, it was

  49. 1 about .50 calibre. You could tell by the sound that

    2 the weapon made and the size of the tracer round coming

    3 through the smoke.

    4 Sorry. There's one other piece I missed as

    5 well.

    6 Q. Could you tell us approximately what time it

    7 was when you noticed this big calibre?

    8 JUDGE MAY: Let me interrupt to clarify

    9 something. The witness has said that the firing came

    10 from a particular point, and that point was referred to

    11 earlier, in earlier evidence, as the turning circle,

    12 and I think the record should make that clear.

    13 MR. TERRIER: Absolutely, Judge. Also it is

    14 good to specify this for the transcript. Let us say

    15 that the witness stated as the area from where the

    16 heavy calibre firing was coming, which he noticed on

    17 his third passage, that he indicated the area close to

    18 the parking area designated as Grabovi Sutre where the

    19 houses of some of the accused, of the Kupreskic

    20 accused, are to be found.

    21 Q. Could you tell us what time it was when you

    22 noted this firing coming from the Sutre area?

    23 A. It's probably important to note that on all

    24 of the passing, there was shooting, but the specific

    25 heavy firing would have been maybe 13.30.

  50. 1 Q. When did you carry out your last visit to

    2 Ahmici?

    3 A. It's difficult to say, obviously, but I would

    4 say maybe 15.00, 15.30, because I had one more trip to

    5 do, and I remember getting back to the camp when it was

    6 dark, so ... When I say "one more trip," not to

    7 Ahmici, to the village north of Vitez.

    8 There was one important thing that I forgot

    9 to mention on my first run, and that was that we

    10 witnessed, in this ravine here (indicating), maybe

    11 ten -- I couldn't see beyond that because there was

    12 smoke -- maybe ten Croatian soldiers lying here facing

    13 this way. It seemed to me that that was a cut-off

    14 group. It was difficult to say.

    15 Q. How were the soldiers dressed that you saw in

    16 that ditch?

    17 A. They were in the standard Croatian,

    18 American-style camouflage uniforms.

    19 Q. For you, is there no doubt as their belonging

    20 to the Croatian army?

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. Could you once again show us on the map where

    23 those soldiers were?

    24 A. There's a very definite ravine here, and they

    25 were lying on this side of the bank and below the bank

  51. 1 and looking this way. They tried to hide as we went

    2 past in our Warriors, but because of the height of the

    3 Warrior we could see them down in the ravine.

    4 Q. For the sake of the transcript, we should

    5 state that this ravine or this ditch is parallel to the

    6 road leading to the Ahmici village, towards Vitez.

    7 This ravine is very visible on the map, on the aerial

    8 photograph.

    9 Mr. Witness, could you tell us how many

    10 bodies you were able to collect in Ahmici, numbers of

    11 bodies you found and collected on that day in Ahmici?

    12 A. Less than 20 we collected on the three

    13 passes. I maybe put -- I had seen 10 or 12 in this car

    14 park, and then maybe 6, maybe a few more in the

    15 morgue. And the number of bodies seen we could have

    16 gone all day, but had I seen anybody alive, that would

    17 have changed my whole perception, but because they

    18 were -- all looked dead, there was no point in

    19 staying.

    20 Q. In which area did you find all these bodies?

    21 A. They were from approximately here through to

    22 approximately here.

    23 Q. Were they male, female bodies, bodies of old

    24 people, of children?

    25 A. The ones that we collected were male and

  52. 1 female. All of them were in their civilian clothes.

    2 Most of whom weren't wearing shoes, because that was

    3 pointed out by one of my soldiers, which suggested that

    4 is they were surprised. I saw no children killed, but

    5 there were certainly male and female, and quite a few

    6 older people.

    7 Q. Did you see any weapons close to those

    8 bodies?

    9 A. They were all civilians. And perhaps an

    10 important point to note here was that the number of

    11 bullet wounds in each of the victims was great, which

    12 would suggest to me that the shooting was from a very

    13 close proximity. Obviously the greater the proximity,

    14 the wider the spread, the less the bullet numbers.

    15 Q. Which means that automatic guns were used at

    16 close range; is that right?

    17 A. That's correct, yes.

    18 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I'd like another

    19 video clip, a short video clip, to be displayed. It is

    20 a video clip coming from the Croatian television, from

    21 the Croatian community of ethnic Bosna, coming from the

    22 Zenica studio. I'd like the witness to make comments.

    23 (Videotape played)

    24 MR. TERRIER: It's important to have the

    25 soundtrack. Is it possible to have the soundtrack?

  53. 1 Because you can hear the shooting or the firing, and

    2 I'd like the witness to be able to identify the weapons

    3 used. Can we have it from the very beginning again?

    4 A man will be seen who's giving a comment. I

    5 have the English transcript of this commentary which

    6 was originally in Croatian. I'd like to hand this

    7 over.

    8 THE REGISTRAR: The video will be marked 179

    9 and the transcript 179-A.

    10 MR. TERRIER: I'm very sorry, Mr. President,

    11 but I think it's important to have the soundtrack of

    12 that video clip.

    13 (Videotape played)

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: I wonder whether we could ask

    15 the technicians to make sure that we can hear the

    16 sound.

    17 We need some time, so it seems. Could you

    18 move on to other questions, then we will be able to

    19 have the video clip and the soundtrack towards the

    20 end?

    21 MR. TERRIER:

    22 Q. Mr. Witness, could you state your view of

    23 what happened to Ahmici, say to the Tribunal what you

    24 think happened on that day? What do you think happened

    25 that day in Ahmici?

  54. 1 A. Obviously I know the early morning events

    2 through talking to friends from the same battalion who

    3 had been there earlier than I was, but it appears,

    4 certainly when I got there at 12.00, the initial attack

    5 had been -- was over.

    6 The people I picked up were all trying to go

    7 towards the road. They were all at the front of the

    8 houses and going this way, which again would coincide

    9 with the fire that we saw later coming from this point

    10 here, that they seemed to be fleeing in this

    11 direction. A lot of the bodies around here had a

    12 number of wounds coming in through their right-hand

    13 side as well as the front, which again would tie up to

    14 the fact that they were hit by cross-fire from this

    15 direction -- sorry, this direction, and indeed, from

    16 the front of them, because they were hit from this

    17 point. So where they were actually shot was different

    18 to the weapon that was up here, and indeed the calibre

    19 of weapon used was a much smaller, which suggests

    20 small-arms fire from the front and side. Certainly

    21 when I got there it looked like they'd all been killed

    22 from that point.

    23 I think later in the day, as we were

    24 gathering up the dead, they decided that they didn't

    25 want us there any more, which is why they were firing

  55. 1 upon us at that point, firing through the smoke at

    2 where they thought we were. Bear in mind we couldn't

    3 see them, and we had at times magnification sights on

    4 the Warriors, so they probably wouldn't be able to see

    5 us specifically, they'd just know by the noise of the

    6 vehicles roughly where we were. And I think that's

    7 probably why they train the fire on us in our area.

    8 Really, that's all I could say. It seemed to

    9 me that they pushed them down from here and were

    10 waiting for them on the road and from this direction

    11 here.

    12 Q. Do you think this was a military operation?

    13 Would you qualify this as being a military operation,

    14 meaning carried out by the Croats?

    15 A. I didn't see evidence of Croat soldiers that

    16 would help me make that impression, but also it was a

    17 very well-coordinated attack. The whole day was very

    18 cleverly coordinated. Wherever we were with our

    19 Warriors the fighting would die down, and so they

    20 clearly had radio communications they started somewhere

    21 else, and so we were constantly chasing round.

    22 So it was very clear to me the whole

    23 operation was conducted by the military, and with

    24 cut-off groups here, firing points on the hard standing

    25 up there. It seemed reasonably well put together by

  56. 1 somebody who had a good grasp of tactics.

    2 MR. TERRIER: With your leave, Mr. President,

    3 I would like to ask the view of the witness on a

    4 statement made by Mr. Hayman in another case presently

    5 being heard before another trial Chamber in the Blaskic

    6 case. This is a public document. The initial

    7 statements by -- opening statement by Mr. Hayman -- let

    8 me, please, finish before -- allow me to conclude my

    9 sentence.

    10 Yes. This is the only statement by

    11 Mr. Hayman on behalf of Mr. Blaskic, who, at a given

    12 point in time, supplied information as to what, in his

    13 view, happened on the 16th of April, 1993 in Ahmici.

    14 This is a public document, the statement was made

    15 publicly, and I'd like to submit this to the witness,

    16 to show him the contents of this opening statement

    17 regarding Ahmici. This is half a page long, so as to

    18 have his comment. Thank you, I've finished.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel Radovic.

    20 MR. RADOVIC: Your Honour, we object to the

    21 use and presentation in this particular case of

    22 statements made by witnesses in another case, actually,

    23 the statements of Defence counsel appearing on behalf

    24 of another client in another case. I believe that is

    25 totally irrelevant. The more so as none of the accused

  57. 1 in the Blaskic case could have had any influence

    2 whatsoever on the statement in question. So I believe

    3 that that statement is not involved and of relevance in

    4 this particular case, that we are here on today.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Terrier, could you

    6 possibly sum up in a few words what the opening

    7 statement is, so as to give us the gist of it? I

    8 believe this opening statement was delivered by

    9 Mr. Hayman, and if I understood it properly, this

    10 reflects the position adopted by General Blaskic, but

    11 you could, perhaps, sum up in a few words the gist of

    12 the statement and then ask a question. I suppose

    13 you're going to ask this witness what he thinks of it

    14 as a military expert.

    15 MR. TERRIER: Yes, as a military expert but

    16 also as a factual witness as he was in Ahmici on the

    17 16th of April, 1993 towards noon and towards 3.30,

    18 approximately, in the afternoon.

    19 This statement was made by Mr. Hayman on the

    20 7th of September in another case before another Trial

    21 Chamber of this Tribunal, and I suppose his opinion

    22 reflects that of General Blaskic, but I believe this

    23 is -- I take it a statement by Mr. Hayman.

    24 This is what he says -- so I'm giving you the

    25 basic meaning of it, but I do have the full statement

  58. 1 for you, Judges, and for the Defence counsel, the

    2 entire statement made by Mr. Hayman. He said that

    3 there was, indeed, the massacre of Muslim civilians in

    4 Ahmici; that all the Muslim houses were burned down in

    5 Ahmici; that, however, according to Mr. Hayman, this

    6 massacre is to be seen within the framework of a

    7 military operation, because there was organised

    8 resistance and major organised resistance in Ahmici on

    9 the 16th of April, 1993.

    10 Here is my first question to the witness:

    11 Did you notice that on the 16th of April, 1993, in

    12 Ahmici, there was a major organised resistance in the

    13 face of an attack launch on the village?

    14 A. There was absolutely no resistance

    15 whatsoever, and there were no signs at all of ABiH

    16 troops.

    17 Q. The second question: Mr. Hayman stated that

    18 this massacre was completed around noon or towards the

    19 end of the late morning on the 16th of April, 1993. Is

    20 this what you also think?

    21 A. That would be my opinion, yes.

    22 MR. TERRIER: I think that we're now in a

    23 position to see the short video clip.

    24 (Videotape played)

    25 THE INTERPRETER: (Interpreting commentary

  59. 1 from video tape) ... "We are two kilometres away from

    2 Vitez, but we shall probably not be able to go on. We

    3 have mines in the area and you can see for yourself

    4 that the fighting is going on here."

    5 MR. TERRIER:

    6 Q. Yes, I would like to ask a few questions

    7 following this video clip.

    8 What we have just seen on this clip, does

    9 that match your recollection of Ahmici?

    10 A. Yes. You can see from the video that there

    11 was heavy smoke which obscured our view of the hill,

    12 which is probably where he was filming from, but at a

    13 lower level we couldn't see it. And also, you could

    14 hear the high-calibre weapon which was making the

    15 pronounced cracks. A small-arms weapon wouldn't make

    16 that noise.

    17 Q. The heavy-calibre weapons, could you specify

    18 the type of weapons at all?

    19 A. That would match the sort of weapon I

    20 described before, which would be approximately a .50

    21 calibre weapon.

    22 Q. Had you, prior to the 16th of April, had the

    23 opportunity of seeing that type of weapons in the area?

    24 A. Yes. I had seen such a weapon mounted on a

    25 truck, a flatbed truck, and they used to use it to

  60. 1 intimidate the ABiH in the villages around Vitez.

    2 MR. TERRIER: I have no further questions for

    3 this witness. Thank you very much, Mr. President.

    4 The only thing is that I shall ask that

    5 Exhibit 179 and its annex, 179-A, be tendered into

    6 exhibit. As to the statement, the opening statement by

    7 Mr. Hayman, the gist of which I just gave to you, just

    8 to make sure that this also -- in conformity with the

    9 actual opening statement, I wonder whether it might be

    10 useful to tender an excerpt from that statement.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: No, it doesn't seem to be

    12 necessary. It is not an exhibit as such, and you

    13 fairly adequately summarised the contents of that

    14 statement. Thank you.

    15 I would now turn to Counsel Pavkovic and ask

    16 him who is going to cross-examine the witness.

    17 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I'm

    18 not quite sure. It is now 12.10. Would perhaps it be

    19 not the appropriate time for a break so that the

    20 Defence counsel could then cross-examine the witness

    21 thereafter? I believe that Mr. Radovic will be

    22 questioning the witness, our colleague Puliselic, and

    23 I, myself, also have a question for this witness.

    24 Perhaps some other of the colleagues also, we shall

    25 see.

  61. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: May I suggest we start then

    2 with Counsel Radovic, who can be so kind as to

    3 volunteer as the first one? Thank you.

    4 MR. RADOVIC: Well, then if it does take me

    5 more than 20 minutes, then -- perhaps then I shall,

    6 myself, propose a break in that case.

    7 Cross-examined by Mr. Radovic:

    8 Q. Major Dooley, you were trained as a soldier

    9 in the infantry, you were trained as an infantry

    10 officer in the British Army, if I understood you well?

    11 A. At Royal Military Academy Sandhurst, all

    12 officers are trained the same. It's only after you

    13 leave Sandhurst that you specialise in a skill, and

    14 indeed my skill was Corps of Signals, so I was a

    15 Signals Officer.

    16 Q. But in infantry training, did that encompass

    17 only strategy but tactics also?

    18 A. That is correct.

    19 Q. Then answer my question. Did your training

    20 include both strategy apart from tactics? Was it only

    21 tactics or strategy and tactics?

    22 A. Both.

    23 Q. Your training encompassed both these skills,

    24 then I shall ask you about some strategic perceptions.

    25 Would you please take a look at that photograph behind

  62. 1 you, the road, and tell me whether controlling that

    2 particular road was of strategic importance for the

    3 HVO?

    4 A. There were Mujahedin troops trying to get to

    5 Travnik to reinforce the ABiH brigade out there, and

    6 they would have used this road as a main supply road to

    7 get to Travnik, and so it would have been important,

    8 strategically, to control this road.

    9 Q. Thank you for the reply, because with the

    10 reply of Colonel Watters, who claimed -- I didn't like

    11 his answer. He claimed that actually, it was not of

    12 strategic importance for the HVO, that particular

    13 road.

    14 You have passed through this road, you passed

    15 through this road a number of times, and you had a full

    16 situation in the Lasva Valley -- full insight into the

    17 situation in the Lasva Valley.

    18 When it comes to actual war operations and

    19 the area controlled by the HVO in the Lasva Valley

    20 region, do you agree with me that the HVO forces were,

    21 in a sense, separated from the Muslims -- surrounded by

    22 the Muslims?

    23 A. I think you probably realise that it was

    24 almost like a target board, whereby there would be one

    25 group of people, may have been the centre, surrounded

  63. 1 by --

    2 Q. Like an enclave.

    3 A. -- a group of people, followed by another

    4 group, say. There was concentric rings.

    5 Q. The HVO was in control of certain towns to a

    6 greater extent, for instance, Vitez, Busovaca, and some

    7 other ones. The army that wanted to conquer, to take

    8 an area, what is the first objective that it pursues in

    9 order to conquer an area, to take an area? To put it

    10 even more directly so that you do not have to read

    11 between the lines what the purport of my question is,

    12 namely: Does an army which wishes to conquer a certain

    13 area, does it endeavour, irrespective of the defence

    14 forces, irrespective of whether that is the right term

    15 to use, does it attempt to separate the army of the

    16 enemy, for instance, to separate the army stationed in

    17 Vitez from the army forces stationed in Busovaca,

    18 Kiseljak, and other places?

    19 A. I think what you're trying to say is: Do you

    20 cut the lines of communication to stop reinforcement?

    21 And the answer is, of course, "Yes."

    22 Q. To prevent them from manoeuvring. So we

    23 agree that an army pursuing this particular objective

    24 wants to break into smaller fragments, smaller groups,

    25 the other army, so as to exclude the possibility of its

  64. 1 manoeuvring, namely, of a unit from a place coming to

    2 the rescue or aid of another unit in another place, for

    3 which manoeuvre, of course, you need excellent

    4 communication, so -- and we have also assessed jointly

    5 and agree that this particular route was of strategic

    6 importance for the HVO; is that not so?

    7 A. Yes, that could be perceived as being so.

    8 Q. I should now like to ask you something in

    9 connection with your claim that there were no members

    10 of the B and H army in Ahmici. How do you conclude

    11 that, and with such certainty at that? Is it because

    12 you did not come across any people in uniform, any men

    13 in uniform, or because there were no military

    14 installations in Ahmici or on the basis of some other

    15 different circumstances?

    16 A. When we came upon Ahmici, we clearly

    17 surprised the attacking forces because they wouldn't

    18 have made themselves visible to us if they expected us

    19 to be there. If we surprised the attacking forces, we

    20 would have surprised any defensive forces. I saw

    21 Croatians in uniform, I saw no ABiH at all, and all of

    22 the casualties were civilians with no signs of weapons

    23 near them.

    24 Q. You said that among the civilians, there were

    25 also males, men, among the corpses which you saw. Of

  65. 1 course, I fully appreciate your assessment as to who is

    2 a soldier and who is not a soldier because you are

    3 looking at it with the eyes of an English officer who

    4 is used to a soldier who was wearing a uniform. But I

    5 should like to ask you whether you have ever, in your

    6 practice as a soldier, as a military, have you been in

    7 countries, seen people which were members of an armed

    8 group who were not wearing uniforms but they were

    9 combatants anyway?

    10 A. If you're referring to the British

    11 involvement in Northern Ireland, I lived there for five

    12 years. Although I never saw a terrorist, I've seen

    13 a lot of video footage of civilians who are terrorists,

    14 and, yes.

    15 Q. No, I was not actually referring to Ireland,

    16 I was, rather, thinking of these countries in Africa

    17 where things have happened, but Ireland is also a good

    18 example where not every soldier has to wear a uniform.

    19 Was it not also possible for such a situation

    20 to have occurred in Bosnia too, that not every

    21 combatant had a uniform, or that a fighter wearing a

    22 uniform, seeing that he was in a hopeless defensive

    23 situation, would have perhaps shed off his uniform,

    24 because in Ahmici there were no barracks or facilities

    25 in which a larger military group would be or could be

  66. 1 stationed?

    2 A. These people were not only dressed in

    3 civilians -- yes, I can take your point. However, they

    4 didn't have time to put their shoes on, by and large,

    5 and I thought it was very gracious of whoever killed

    6 them to have hidden their weapons.

    7 Q. That is your opinion based on what you saw at

    8 the time, at the moment when you came there. But we

    9 have a witness here who said that a son or, rather, a

    10 brother of a person, whose name I should not mention,

    11 first wanted to put his uniform on and then, when he

    12 saw that it was getting bumpy, he took the uniform off

    13 and put on his civilian clothes and left the house

    14 in mufti. Do you allow such a possibility? Could that

    15 have happened there?

    16 A. I could never, obviously, account for every

    17 individual carrying out such a practice, but none of

    18 them had any weapons.

    19 Q. I can, in fact, list persons who themselves

    20 have admitted to the possession of weapons and they

    21 were in Ahmici at the time and they even confessed to

    22 having opened fire.

    23 Apart from that, you also yourself say that

    24 when you came to Ahmici, there was fighting going on.

    25 What do you understand the fighting --

  67. 1 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Radovic, this witness has

    2 given evidence of what he saw. He can't comment on

    3 what information you might have. This is what he said

    4 he saw at the time. He saw civilians and no weapons.

    5 Now, if you've got some other evidence, you can produce

    6 it, but there's no point asking him about things which

    7 he knows nothing about.

    8 MR. RADOVIC: Your Honours, the witness spoke

    9 a lot about what he thought, his opinions, and so it

    10 was my opinion that there were no soldiers. But let it

    11 pass. The witness said that there was fighting at the

    12 time that he made the initial pass or pass number 2 or

    13 on the third pass going into Ahmici.

    14 Q. What do you mean when you say "fighting"?

    15 Was there fighting or was there not fighting?

    16 A. Perhaps a better choice of words would be

    17 there was shooting into the village, from the area to

    18 the north-west into the village, so it was one way.

    19 Q. What is the north-eastern region of the

    20 village? Could you show us on the map, on the

    21 photograph? Would you show us the region you have in

    22 mind?

    23 A. Do you mean where I saw the shooting coming

    24 from?

    25 Q. Yes, the direction of the shooting. From

  68. 1 where and to where?

    2 A. Initially? In fact, throughout the whole

    3 time it was from roughly this area in the direction of

    4 the road. However, later, as we dropped off the bodies

    5 in this car park, there was shooting from both this

    6 direction here and this direction but over our heads in

    7 the car park here (indicating).

    8 Q. You said that there was shooting from heavy

    9 arms. Do you mean that this was shooting from heavy

    10 arms on Ahmici itself, Ahmici itself?

    11 A. Yeah, the .5 calibre was from the area of the

    12 car park, which I just showed you, towards where we

    13 were on the road, but it was at a height of maybe sort

    14 of 15 to 20 feet. It was over our heads.

    15 Q. I'm not quite clear on the arms when you

    16 say .50. Is that a mortar? Is it a recoilless gun?

    17 Is it a rocket? What kind of weapon?

    18 A. It's the heaviest calibre machine gun you can

    19 get with a bullet round, which is half an inch wide.

    20 Q. As we would say, an anti-aircraft gun,

    21 speaking as a layman, of course?

    22 A. It would be a very light anti-aircraft gun

    23 but a very heavy machine gun. It could be used in

    24 either role, more usually as a machine gun for ground

    25 troops than an anti-aircraft gun, but it could be used

  69. 1 as an anti-aircraft gun.

    2 Q. Tell me whether that calibre leaves a trace

    3 of any kind on the target which it has hit.

    4 A. No. It would leave a substantial hole. The

    5 tracer is the bright red round which you would see

    6 through the air. It wouldn't leave a mark on anything

    7 it hit, only the hole, obviously, the impact of the

    8 round.

    9 Q. Like a -- red bullet. While you were doing

    10 a patrol around Ahmici, did you find traces of this?

    11 A. Yes, we saw large holes in the buildings,

    12 obviously made by such a weapon, and on later patrols,

    13 we found shells of that calibre. Indeed, we saw them

    14 quite often in the whole valley around that evening.

    15 Q. Tell me whether you found any traces of any

    16 artillery weapons being used. You spoke of large

    17 calibre, and I thought you were speaking about a gun

    18 whereas you were speaking about a machine gun. Now I'm

    19 interested in knowing whether you found any traces of

    20 artillery weapons or mortars or rockets or anything

    21 like that. When I say "large calibre" and "heavy

    22 weapons," I have that in mind.

    23 A. No. In Ahmici itself, no, there wasn't.

    24 Obviously, in other villages, for example Travnik,

    25 et cetera, there were signs of --

  70. 1 Q. No. We are limiting ourselves to Ahmici

    2 because the accused stand accused exclusively for

    3 Ahmici, so what happened further afield is not of

    4 interest to us. But the first thing I asked you was

    5 just to see whether the road was of strategic

    6 importance, but very well. Thank you.

    7 You said at one point that the victims you

    8 saw were hit from close to -- the ten or so

    9 individuals, some of which you carried off with you.

    10 Tell me, please, on the basis of which material facts

    11 were you able to conclude that the victims were hit

    12 from short range, from close to, and what does "close

    13 to" or "short range" mean? Could you tell us in feet

    14 or in metres?

    15 A. Certainly. Obviously, a great deal of our

    16 training is shooting at wooden targets and so you get a

    17 feel for grouping for shooting. These victims all had

    18 maybe half a dozen rounds in each and the bullet wounds

    19 were maybe two to three inches apart straddling their

    20 bodies. Now, to get such a grouping in one area, as a

    21 line, you would have to be very close, and I would say

    22 "very close" would be maybe within ten feet of them.

    23 You'd be very close, as close as maybe you and I are

    24 together, in order to do that.

    25 Q. What would you say the exactitude of your

  71. 1 assessment there is, because there are some scientific

    2 methods which, up to a certain range, leave some

    3 material traces, whereas beyond that range, all

    4 estimates are ad hoc? So I am interested in knowing

    5 with what percentage of exactitude you're speaking when

    6 you're speaking about this five-metre distance.

    7 A. Are you trying to say, how do I know it's

    8 that close?

    9 Q. Yes, you said that. But I'm interested in

    10 knowing whether you can say how exact your assessment

    11 is in percentages, per cent-wise. Would you say that

    12 this -- well, you weren't exact -- 80 per cent, 60

    13 per cent? Because I assume that it's not 100 per cent

    14 certainty on your part.

    15 A. If it was just one victim, then I would agree

    16 with you, you could not be that certain. Since all of

    17 the victims were shot in such a manner, then I would

    18 say that I was pretty exact, that it's got to be

    19 close. If I were to set a target on that pillar and I

    20 were to shoot at it with an automatic weapon, I would

    21 re-enact similar results. If I were to go another ten

    22 metres back from this, I wouldn't be able to get that

    23 grouping with an automatic weapon.

    24 Q. Density.

    25 A. That's correct.

  72. 1 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, I think that

    2 this is a good opportunity for a break.

    3 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.30 p.m.























  73. 1 --- On resuming at 2.02 p.m.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Krajina?

    3 MR. KRAJINA: Mr. President, as far as I can

    4 see, some of the accused have not been brought in.

    5 MR. RADOVIC: I did not finish.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: First of all, good

    7 afternoon. I understand that the Defence agreed to the

    8 absence of two accused, Mirjan -- sorry, Zoran --

    9 sorry, I apologise. Zoran and Vlatko Kupreskic. Is

    10 that correct?

    11 MR. KRAJINA: We have no knowledge of that

    12 whatsoever, Your Honour.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: I'm sorry. I understand that

    14 they have been taken to a doctor, medical -- a hospital

    15 for some treatment. There was an appointment with

    16 their doctor. We did not know. We have just been

    17 told, and I was told that, actually, the Defence

    18 counsel had agreed to the absence. There was an

    19 appointment for 2.00.

    20 MR. KRAJINA: Your Honour, we have not been

    21 informed of this, and of course, if that is correct, we

    22 have no objection.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So I understand

    24 that although, to my regret, you had not been informed,

    25 you do agree to the absence of the two accused due to

  74. 1 the need for them to be visited by a medical doctor.

    2 All right. So we may proceed.

    3 Now, I wonder whether Counsel Radovic had

    4 finished his cross-examination or he would like to go

    5 on.

    6 MR. RADOVIC: Your Honour, I have some four

    7 questions more, questions more of a general nature

    8 rather than related to the specific events. If I may

    9 proceed, Your Honour?

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, please.

    11 Cross-examined by Mr. Radovic:

    12 Q. Major, as far as I could gather, you came to

    13 the scene of the events somewhere around 11.00 a.m.

    14 What was the exact time that you arrived at Ahmici?

    15 A. It's very difficult for me to say because I

    16 never looked at my watch. I estimate though, it's

    17 around noon, around 12.00.

    18 Q. So you have no personal observation of what

    19 had been going on in Ahmici before you came, before

    20 that time?

    21 A. No, I only had a radio report. That's all I

    22 had.

    23 Q. Now we're talking about what you had seen

    24 with your own eyes and what you had heard with your own

    25 ears from that point in the morning on. Some more

  75. 1 military theoretical questions.

    2 The fact of surprise, the fact of surprise is

    3 within -- is it within something which is comprised

    4 within the art of military skill, or is it something

    5 which is in contravention of the rules of warfare, in

    6 your opinion, Mr. Dooley?

    7 A. Surprise is the name of the game. It's

    8 always condemned.

    9 Q. I agree completely, but I wanted to hear it

    10 coming from you.

    11 Is it possible to surprise the enemy so much

    12 that he is unable to organise a defence at all?

    13 A. Yes, it is.

    14 Q. Thank you. And now even the British army in

    15 which you serve is technologically far superior to all

    16 the armies which you saw on both sides there. You have

    17 seen what combat inhabited places looks like, when in

    18 villages house by house taken without the use of tanks

    19 and other armoured vehicles and weapons.

    20 A. I'm sorry, I'm not actually clear what the

    21 question is there.

    22 Q. I will describe what I have learned on that

    23 score, and will you please say whether that is correct,

    24 the way I perceive that sort of combat?

    25 First, in principle, one comes to a window or

  76. 1 similar opening, throws a hand grenade inside, and then

    2 one kicks the door down and opens fire from automatic

    3 weapons; is that correct? This is something that I was

    4 taught.

    5 A. That's one way. We try not to use the doors,

    6 but okay.

    7 Q. Okay. But this procedure is, in principle, a

    8 way for the infantry to conquer to, take house by

    9 house, do you not agree?

    10 A. I do agree with you.

    11 Q. In principle, when such fighting goes on, do

    12 you use specially trained units?

    13 A. I do. However, most infantry units are

    14 trained in this skill.

    15 Q. Of course, we must make the distinction

    16 because the British army is a professional army, and

    17 the one in the field in which you were, they were not

    18 professionals, they were just people who had just

    19 learned something in the JNA when they were serving as

    20 conscripts, and they just found themselves engulfed by

    21 the winds of war. So that's a distinction to be made.

    22 And the last question: You said that it was

    23 a synchronised operation which did not encompass only

    24 Ahmici but also covered the broader area of the Lasva

    25 River Valley; is that correct?

  77. 1 A. (No audible answer).

    2 Now, in your assessment, at what level was

    3 the planning made for such a synchronised operation?

    4 Of course, at that time you were a Lieutenant, but now

    5 from the aspect of a higher officer, you're quite able

    6 to estimate what level it had to take, what planning

    7 level it had to be to plan such an operation of that

    8 scope?

    9 A. I think I have to say if I were to refer to a

    10 brigade in the British sense that that would mean four

    11 large formations of battalion size. In the former

    12 Yugoslavia, a brigade, of course, would be much

    13 smaller. However, the number of troops involved would

    14 have been the equivalent of a Croatian brigade.

    15 Q. So the lowest level at which planning for

    16 that operation that you registered had to be a

    17 brigade. Do you agree with that?

    18 A. To cover that area, yes, I do.

    19 MR. RADOVIC: Thank you. I have no further

    20 questions.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel Krajina?

    22 I don't remember who. Counsel Puliselic and then you.

    23 MR. PAVKOVIC: Oh, I can question the

    24 witness, or my colleague Puliselic. I'm not aware of

    25 what the list -- or order, rather, you have noted

  78. 1 down.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: I noted down that after

    3 Counsel Radovic, Counsel Puliselic would cross-examine

    4 the witness and you would be the last one. But I mean,

    5 it's for you to -- you can swap.

    6 MR. PAVKOVIC: All right. Thank you. Then

    7 colleague Puliselic can have the floor.

    8 MR. PULISELIC: Your Honour, I only have a

    9 couple of questions, because colleague Radovic has

    10 mostly covered my own topics of interest.

    11 Cross-examined by Mr. Puliselic:

    12 Q. I would like to ask the major this: You said

    13 in Ahmici you passed through Ahmici along the road in

    14 four APCs, and that you were in the first APC, if I

    15 recall correctly?

    16 A. That is correct.

    17 Q. You said that near a ravine in Ahmici you saw

    18 nine soldiers lying?

    19 A. That is correct.

    20 Q. How do you know that those were HVO

    21 soldiers?

    22 A. I could tell by their uniforms.

    23 Q. I should like to say -- ask you: What is the

    24 difference in uniforms? If you do not see the

    25 insignia, what is the difference in uniforms between

  79. 1 HVO uniforms and those of the B and H army, the army of

    2 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    3 A. In that particular area, the HVO wore an

    4 American-based uniform, and the Bosnia army wore a

    5 different type of camouflage. It was more in line with

    6 a Malaysian uniform, although I realise that's not the

    7 sort of it.

    8 Q. Yes, but you were looking at all this from

    9 the APC. Could you see quite clearly?

    10 A. Yes. Obviously from the turret I'm looking

    11 down from a height of maybe two and a half metres, and

    12 you can see quite clearly downwards.

    13 Q. How far was it, approximately, from the road

    14 to the position of the soldiers?

    15 A. The ravine is right on the very edge of the

    16 road if you were to look at the picture, and so the

    17 first soldier would have been no more than ten feet

    18 away from me.

    19 Q. As regards the first videotape which was

    20 shown today, you said that it had been filmed from,

    21 I believe, the third or fourth APC, I do not recall

    22 exactly. Do you know who was the actual cameraman?

    23 A. Yes, it was the third Warrior, and it was

    24 Sergeant Ryan.

    25 Q. Do you recall, and I don't know whether you

  80. 1 have seen this tape before, whether this which we saw

    2 today, this footage which we saw today, is the complete

    3 footage or some excerpts?

    4 A. I think it's all. I certainly never saw that

    5 video before yesterday, so I don't know of any other

    6 videos that exists.

    7 MR. KRAJINA: Thank you. Thank you, Your

    8 Honour. I have no further questions.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel

    10 Pavkovic.

    11 Cross-examined by Mr. Pavkovic:

    12 Q. Mr. Major, I'm Defence Petar Pavkovic, and I

    13 should like to put to you three questions.

    14 Before your statement of today, have you ever

    15 given any statements to the Tribunal staff ever

    16 before?

    17 A. Do you mean, have I ever testified in court

    18 before?

    19 Q. Not testify. Did you talk to the

    20 investigators of the Prosecutor, for instance?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. How many such talks have you had?

    23 A. For this particular case, two. Although, for

    24 Colonel Blaskic I was interviewed some time ago, maybe

    25 two years ago.

  81. 1 Q. I did not understand you exactly. For this

    2 particular case, how many statements did you make? How

    3 many conversations, how many talks did you have?

    4 A. I've had two talks for this particular case.

    5 Q. Tell me when was that.

    6 A. The first was in Camberley in England, and

    7 maybe that was -- I can't be precise, but somewhere

    8 between six months and a year ago. I think nearer six

    9 months and the second was yesterday.

    10 Q. If I understood you well, was it not in

    11 November 1996?

    12 A. That would be the first witness statement,

    13 and that was ready to do with the Blaskic case, but I

    14 just --

    15 Q. Major, today while you were describing these

    16 dead bodies of men and women, you said inter alia that

    17 they were barefoot, and that a comment your colleague

    18 had to that was that they had been taken by surprise.

    19 Did I understand you well?

    20 A. Almost. I said some of them were barefoot,

    21 and, yes, the comment was correct.

    22 Q. So you said, if I'm not wrong, you didn't say

    23 some of them were barefoot, you said they were

    24 barefoot?

    25 A. In that case, I correct what I said before.

  82. 1 Some of them were barefoot.

    2 Q. Or the majority of them, most of them were

    3 barefoot?

    4 A. Some of them were barefoot.

    5 Q. To the question of my distinguished colleague

    6 Radovic today, you replied, in connection with a

    7 question related to the factor of surprise as an

    8 important, let us say, tactical factor, it appears that

    9 as far as this question is concerned, the Prosecutor

    10 has also devoted special attention to that question in

    11 his own statements. That is why I'm asking you whether

    12 they were barefoot or not.

    13 If you will allow me, I should like to remind

    14 you, Your Honours, of the statement made by this

    15 witness to the investigators on December 25 and 26,

    16 1996, page 9, section 2, and the third sentence

    17 from the top. The witness said and I quote: "The

    18 victims which I saw had shoes on, meaning that they had

    19 to be warned of the attack."

    20 THE INTERPRETER: End of quote. The

    21 interpreter is not quoting exactly.

    22 MR. PAVKOVIC:

    23 Q. Can you perceive a difference, and if you do

    24 perceive a difference between these two statements, can

    25 you give us a brief comment?

  83. 1 A. Of course, there is a difference between the

    2 two. The majority did have shoes on, there were some

    3 that did not. The fact that some had shoes on would

    4 suggest that they had time to put their shoes on, and

    5 those who did not would suggest that they did not.

    6 Q. That is correct what you are saying, but I'm

    7 asking about the difference in the statement which you

    8 made then and the statement which you made here in

    9 court?

    10 A. I can only tell you what I know now, which is

    11 that some of them did not have shoes on.

    12 Q. Your Honours, I shall not pursue this point.

    13 I shall not insist on a further clarification of this

    14 question. I just thought it expedient to point to the

    15 difference and to underline the point.

    16 My second question: Today you said that you

    17 were gathering the dead bodies and that you deposited

    18 them at a certain place, and that then you again went

    19 to get them. In that particular spot, do you remember

    20 how many dead bodies were there before you took them

    21 from that particular spot in the direction of Vitez?

    22 A. If, and I think this is what you mean, how

    23 many did I see who were dead, I never counted them,

    24 ever corpse, but my perception --

    25 Q. Approximately, of course.

  84. 1 A. Maybe 50. I mean, I collected two-fifths of

    2 those I could see.

    3 Q. I believe that you said that you had

    4 collected less than 20 men.

    5 A. Yes. I couldn't be specific. I put about,

    6 somewhere between 10 and 12 at the car park by the

    7 cemetery, and then I took another load to a temporary

    8 morgue in Vitez. So that could be anywhere between,

    9 you know -- I would say it was less than 20, maybe

    10 about 18 or something like that.

    11 Q. So if I understand you correctly, you did not

    12 find them all in a single spot but you actually brought

    13 them there and assembled the bodies on that spot?

    14 A. That is correct.

    15 Q. Thank you. My third question: You said at a

    16 certain point that, according to your own judgement, in

    17 April 1993, there could be felt a certain tension

    18 rising. "Tensions were mounting"; that is how you

    19 described it. On what basis did you reach that

    20 particular conclusion? Tensions between the sides, of

    21 course, I meant the Croatian and the Bosnian sides.

    22 A. That is correct, there was -- we would go out

    23 daily on patrols. There was shooting in Travnik, there

    24 was shooting in the whole valley going towards

    25 Kiseljak, and there was some shooting in Vitez, and

  85. 1 these added to make the tension I talked about.

    2 Q. Tell me, please, does the name Zivko Totic

    3 mean anything to you? Zivko Totic?

    4 A. Absolutely nothing.

    5 Q. "Absolutely nothing," you say. Did you hear

    6 about an incident which took place in Zenica when an

    7 individual, an officer of the Croatian Defence Council,

    8 was taken prisoner and when those accompanying him were

    9 killed?

    10 A. Not in Zenica, no. I know of a similar

    11 incident in Vitez but not in Zenica.

    12 MR. PAVKOVIC: No. Very well.

    13 Mr. President, I have no further questions.

    14 Thank you. Thank you, Major.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Counsel

    16 Slokovic-Glumac?

    17 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you,

    18 Mr. President. I have two questions, if I may? Thank

    19 you.

    20 Cross-examined by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac:

    21 Q. Tell me, please, when you came from the

    22 direction of Vitez, you said that you passed that road

    23 four times on that day from Vitez to Ahmici; is that

    24 correct?

    25 A. That is correct.

  86. 1 Q. Where did you move? Did you move along the

    2 main road alone or did you use other ways?

    3 A. We used the main road and then, obviously, to

    4 collect the dead, we used the gardens of the houses

    5 adjacent to the road.

    6 Q. Did you, at any point, enter Ahmici on that

    7 particular road, the road you pointed out to us? Did

    8 you enter Ahmici?

    9 A. If you mean the area near the minaret, no, I

    10 did not.

    11 Q. That is, you remained along the outskirts, if

    12 I understood you correctly, when you left. You did not

    13 move towards the section that you pointed out as the

    14 parking lot, the white area that you pointed out to

    15 us.

    16 A. Not on that day, no.

    17 Q. Where did you turn your vehicles when you

    18 went back to Vitez? You went from Vitez to Ahmici.

    19 Which road did you take?

    20 A. It varied. I'm not exactly sure what you

    21 mean. The first time, we turned round in the car park

    22 here and came back. After that, on the last trip,

    23 which is the time we went to Vitez school, we merely

    24 just drove around the village itself and came out

    25 adjacent to the road.

  87. 1 Q. So at no point, in practical terms, did you

    2 enter the village because you stuck to the main road;

    3 is that correct?

    4 A. Within 100 metres of the main road only, yes.

    5 Q. How many times did you leave the vehicle; can

    6 you remember? Every time you entered, moved along the

    7 road, did you get out of the vehicle every time, or was

    8 this only on the two occasions when you collected the

    9 bodies?

    10 A. We collected bodies on three occasions, and

    11 only on those three occasions did I actually get out of

    12 the vehicle. The first time, which is the drive up and

    13 down, I was merely standing in the turret.

    14 Q. How long did this take you, this getting out

    15 of the vehicle? Did it last five minutes, ten

    16 minutes? How long did it take you to get out? How

    17 long were you out of the vehicle?

    18 A. Maybe -- it's difficult to say, of course --

    19 but I would say somewhere between ten and fifteen

    20 minutes. It was difficult for us to get the bodies

    21 into the ambulance because, unfortunately, the way they

    22 were, we had to stack them on top of each other.

    23 Q. The bodies that you found and that you

    24 collected, they were the bodies which were on the

    25 left-hand side of the road, that is how I understood

  88. 1 it, coming from Vitez; is that correct?

    2 A. That is right.

    3 Q. In the section -- would you please show us on

    4 the photograph, so that we can have precisely defined

    5 it for our records, is that before or after the road

    6 leading into Ahmici? Where did it begin, the

    7 borderline?

    8 A. I would say only -- probably the road going

    9 to Ahmici itself is a good start point, so it was

    10 around from there through here (indicating).

    11 Q. You said that the shooting at one point, when

    12 you came on your second pass, was much stronger. Can

    13 you tell us what time that was? You first entered

    14 about noon and the last time about 4.00. When was the

    15 time in between? How long did it take you to go in and

    16 out on the second pass?

    17 A. The first time, yeah, it was about noon.

    18 However, then I waited in the car park, off the map

    19 here, for the reinforcements, and I had to brief them

    20 on what was happening, and so it could be -- it's

    21 difficult for me to say -- but maybe quarter to 1.00,

    22 1.00.

    23 Q. How do you explain the fact that the shooting

    24 was stronger at that time? Can you explain this? Was

    25 that independent of your arrival or was it linked to

  89. 1 your arrival?

    2 A. I would say it was independent. Again, it's

    3 difficult. Obviously, when we're out of the -- because

    4 the road drops down, you lose sound. I had a

    5 perception of it increasing and it increased more and

    6 more the longer we were there, so by 3.30, it was quite

    7 strong.

    8 Q. Very well. Thank you. The last time that

    9 you entered, there was also shooting around 4.00 p.m.,

    10 was there?

    11 A. That would be approximately right, and it was

    12 quite strong in the area standing near the cemetery.

    13 Q. Could you locate whether there was any strong

    14 shooting near the mosque? You can see the mosque from

    15 the road. It is the road leading towards Ahmici.

    16 Could you see the mosque from that point?

    17 A. I wasn't looking for it at the time and so,

    18 no, I don't know that.

    19 Q. Tell us, please, the shooting that you heard

    20 from the white area that you indicated on the map, the

    21 larger white area, you were certain that the shooting

    22 came from that direction, from that spot?

    23 A. Yes, only because after this incident --

    24 because we knew the direction, roughly, of the fire.

    25 We didn't know that spot existed at the time. But

  90. 1 after the incident, we saw the lay of the ground, and

    2 it would be the most suitable place to fire such a

    3 calibre weapon.

    4 Q. That is how you were able to assess this.

    5 The lay of the ground, as you say, and you thought that

    6 the shooting was probably coming from that spot; that

    7 is what you mean.

    8 A. Yes. I mean, the Warriors had the firing,

    9 they had the tracer in their sights, but they couldn't

    10 tell where it was coming from, so they merely pointed

    11 their turrets through the smoke in the general area of

    12 that. The next day or the day after, when we were

    13 there again, we knew where we were, we knew where they

    14 were looking, and that pointed at that place.

    15 Q. When did you go to Ahmici after that? Did

    16 you go on the second day, on the day after, or six days

    17 later with Colonel Stewart?

    18 A. I did go again with Colonel Stewart, but the

    19 next time -- yes, it was probably maybe then

    20 specifically to Ahmici and into Ahmici, although that

    21 road we used was the day after -- two days after,

    22 sorry, so it would be the 18th was the next time we

    23 drove down that road.

    24 Q. On that occasion, you did not go into Ahmici

    25 once again; you just passed by along the road. You

  91. 1 went into Ahmici for the first time on the 22nd with

    2 Colonel Stewart?

    3 A. That's correct.

    4 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, as far as the

    5 soldier in Vitez is concerned, you said that in Vitez,

    6 there could have been several soldiers of the BiH army,

    7 a small number. You did not specify the exact number,

    8 but you said several.

    9 How many soldiers would you say there were in

    10 Vitez at that time before the conflicts broke out, and

    11 I'm thinking of the BiH army?

    12 A. On the 16th, do you mean?

    13 Q. Yes.

    14 A. On the 16th. I don't really recall seeing

    15 any on the 16th, but I do know historically that there

    16 were one or two soldiers in Vitez centre. The people I

    17 saw on the 16th and the people that we tried to protect

    18 on the 16th were civilians, although one of the

    19 civilians did have a hunting rifle.

    20 Q. You mean one of the people who were fighting,

    21 one of the soldiers. You saw two soldiers of the BiH

    22 army, is that what you said, on the 16th?

    23 A. I don't recall seeing any now. It's

    24 obviously some time since. But it was an old man I saw

    25 with a weapon, he was the only resistance I saw to

  92. 1 anything, and he was protecting his family who were

    2 about to be overrun.

    3 Q. Did you go to Vitez before the morning of the

    4 16th? You probably did.

    5 A. You mean before this day?

    6 Q. Yes.

    7 A. Yes, I did.

    8 Q. Did you notice some ditches around the Old

    9 Vitez, Stari Vitez area?

    10 A. Yes, I did.

    11 Q. Did you see any bunkers?

    12 A. There were trenches, if you're wanting to

    13 call them that, maybe 3 feet deep linking the houses so

    14 they could move from one house to another without being

    15 shot by snipers, I believe.

    16 Q. What about bunkers? Did you notice any real

    17 bunkers, not just trenches, around Stari Vitez?

    18 A. No, but I know, obviously, the way they would

    19 have been built, would have been hidden inside

    20 buildings, so you wouldn't really see them. So, no, I

    21 didn't.

    22 Q. Did you know anything about the concentration

    23 of the BiH army in Stari Vitez, that is to say, before

    24 the 16th?

    25 A. Well, this is where I get a little confused

  93. 1 between seeing soldiers or not because before the 16th,

    2 there were some, although not many, BiH soldiers. The

    3 BiH soldiers' stronghold, as you well know, was in

    4 Travnik. But on the 16th, I don't recall seeing any,

    5 really.

    6 Q. The commander of the BiH army in Vitez was

    7 Sefkija Dzidic, (redacted)

    8 (redacted) and he said that there

    9 were about 200 to 250 soldiers of the BiH army in Stari

    10 Vitez. Can you confirm that fact or not?

    11 A. If they were there on the 16th, they were

    12 very well-hidden and they weren't defending the

    13 civilians who were being attacked.

    14 Q. Did the HVO take control of Stari Vitez on

    15 the 16th? Did it enter Stari Vitez?

    16 A. When I saw them, which was before Ahmici,

    17 they were maybe one-third through what I perceived to

    18 be Stari Vitez, which was just to the western side of

    19 the Croatian or Catholic church, and they were moving

    20 through that area. We then put our Warriors where the

    21 civilians were who were being attacked, and they

    22 stopped at that point. As soon as they saw us facing

    23 up to them, they stopped. If I had a map of Stari

    24 Vitez, I could show you where that was.

    25 Q. I asked whether Stari Vitez was taken control

  94. 1 of on the 16th and afterwards by the BiH army -- by the

    2 HVO. Did they take control of Stari Vitez?

    3 A. I don't know if they did it on the 16th. I

    4 know ultimately they did, although there were Muslims

    5 still residing there in small numbers.

    6 Q. That's the wrong piece of information because

    7 all throughout the war, Stari Vitez was isolated. It

    8 was not taken control of. Perhaps you don't know these

    9 places so well. But that is not the correct

    10 information.

    11 Have you any knowledge about the

    12 concentration of the BiH army in Kruscica prior to the

    13 16th?

    14 A. Can you just remind me where Kruscica is?

    15 Q. Kruscica is near Vitez, closer to Vitez from

    16 Ahmici, than Ahmici. Southeast, in fact, of Vitez.

    17 A. No, I don't.

    18 Q. Let me ask you, you mention that a

    19 concentration of the BiH army existed in Travnik at the

    20 time; is that what you said? Yes? And that there was

    21 a little between Busovaca and Kiseljak; is that

    22 correct? I think you said that.

    23 A. Yeah, there was -- certainly Travnik had a

    24 large concentration. I think it was called six corps

    25 but I'm sure -- probably something like that. There

  95. 1 were, as you know, a small strong point of BiH because

    2 we had to escort Croatian officers from Busovaca to

    3 Kiseljak, and obviously on that road, that main road,

    4 there was BiH checkpoints which we had to take them

    5 through.

    6 Q. I would like to ask you just one more thing.

    7 In view of the fact that you were in the region from

    8 the end of 1992, somewhere thereabouts, do you know

    9 anything about the conflict between the BiH army and HVO

    10 in the Busovaca region, and this follows on to what you

    11 said that the HVO had to be escorted in a section of

    12 the way. Were there any war operations in January 1993

    13 between the army of the BiH and the HVO?

    14 A. Yes, yes, there were. There were some

    15 trenches that belonged to the BiH on the hill, I can't

    16 tell you where that was, but it was on the turnoff.

    17 I'll show you.

    18 If you go up this road here, probably just

    19 off the map, there's a turnoff to the right which goes

    20 down the Kiseljak Valley road. Obviously, there were

    21 some BiH positions, and we had a checkpoint at a

    22 place -- the name escapes me at the moment -- further

    23 down that road towards Kiseljak, and in the evenings or

    24 whatever you could hear fighting between the two

    25 forces.

  96. 1 Q. Do you have any knowledge on the fact that

    2 the first killings that took place were done at that

    3 particular time, that is to say, in January 1993, and

    4 that that is where the first massacre of civilians took

    5 place, in villages such as Oseliste, Dusina, Grabovi?

    6 Do you know anything about that?

    7 A. No. Obviously, I saw the after events. Bear

    8 in mind, in about January, we were in Tuzla. It was --

    9 I forget when -- February, maybe March, that we went

    10 back to Vitez.

    11 Q. Very well. Thank you. I just have one more

    12 thing to ask you. In your statement, you said that the

    13 army, this is on the last page of your statement, where

    14 you say that the BiH army, for the most part, wore

    15 civilian clothes, and you state that in the section

    16 where you said that you regularly saw large movements

    17 of troops of the HVO and the BiH army and that the BiH

    18 army generally wore civilian clothing. I can show you

    19 that part of the statement.

    20 A. I'm surprised I signed that, in that

    21 certainly in Travnik, they all wore uniform and I have

    22 photographs showing them wearing uniform. All I can

    23 only presume there was that, on checkpoints, they maybe

    24 more militia type whereby they would wear a jacket and

    25 some military clothing, but I would not say that they

  97. 1 wore civilian clothing. I'm surprised I've signed

    2 that.

    3 Q. One further question, something that my

    4 colleague already asked you, about the increase in

    5 tensions on the 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, and 15th of

    6 April, 1993, and I would like to ask you whether you

    7 know anything about the events that happened in Travnik

    8 on those days, the fact that Croatian officers were

    9 seized and the attack of the BiH army on the forces of

    10 the HVO in Kuber. These were events which took place

    11 immediately before the events of the 16th.

    12 A. Yes, I was on patrol on a couple of the

    13 nights in Travnik, and I witnessed some of these events

    14 that you talk about, although I never saw any duty

    15 officers, but there was general fighting between ABiH

    16 and HVO in Travnik, yeah.

    17 Q. Do you know anything about the attack by the

    18 BiH army on the HVO at Kuber on the 15th of April, 1993?

    19 A. You will have to remind me where Kuber is

    20 first.

    21 Q. Kuber is the mountain immediately above

    22 Vitez, rising up above Vitez, and these were positions

    23 held by the HVO the entire time up to the 15th.

    24 A. We could hear fighting. I don't know

    25 anything specifically about that, but we could hear

  98. 1 fighting.

    2 Q. That means that on the 15th, you heard

    3 fighting around Vitez.

    4 A. Yes.

    5 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you very much.

    6 Thank you.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel Susak.

    8 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I have two

    9 questions to ask the witness, if I may?

    10 Cross-examined by Mr. Susak:

    11 Q. The first question is the following: The

    12 witness said -- you said, sir, that there was shooting

    13 before the 16th of April, 1993.

    14 A. That's correct, yes.

    15 Q. Was this shooting from light arms or heavy

    16 weaponry?

    17 A. Now, where are we talking about

    18 specifically?

    19 Q. Let me remind you. You said that you were in

    20 Vitez and along the Lasva River Valley before the 16th,

    21 and then you said today that there was shooting before

    22 the 16th of April, 1993. Now, I am asking you,

    23 regarding the shooting, was this from light weapons or

    24 heavy artillery weapons, mortars and so on?

    25 A. There was a mixture. In Travnik, it was

  99. 1 heavy machine guns; down towards Kiseljak, on one

    2 occasion, I heard a multi-barrelled rocket launcher but

    3 never saw it; and there was evidence of recoilless

    4 rifles, which are a small canon. Most of the weaponry,

    5 however, was small arms.

    6 Q. I asked about the area of Vitez and Ahmici.

    7 Do you know anything about that? You've just told me

    8 about Travnik.

    9 A. I'd ask you to be more specific. Okay. When

    10 in the area of Vitez, the only shooting there was small

    11 arms, machine guns, that sort of thing.

    12 Q. You said today, when asked by my colleague,

    13 Mr. Radovic, that there was shooting on the 16th of

    14 April, 1993. Could you tell me whether there was

    15 cross-fire from all sides or not?

    16 A. The first three times I was there, the only

    17 fire that was coming in was from the area I indicated

    18 before. On the final attempt, which was when we moved

    19 up to here (indicating), we got fire from this location

    20 and this location but both coming in this direction

    21 (indicating). So, no, there was no cross-fire. The

    22 only time there was any form of cross-fire was that

    23 final move, but that seemed to be directed over our

    24 heads in our direction.

    25 Q. I'm now going to ask you your opinion, not

  100. 1 what you saw but your opinion. When there is firing,

    2 is it dangerous to move across the terrain for anybody

    3 on foot? Is it dangerous?

    4 A. Yes, it is.

    5 Q. Thank you. And another question: When you

    6 go house by house to seize one house after another, you

    7 said that one way was to throw a bomb and enter the

    8 house. Now I would like to ask you your opinion again,

    9 not what you saw but your opinion: Is it possible for

    10 somebody on foot to move up to a house and shoot from

    11 20 metres away and to go up to the house standing up

    12 straight even if he knows that there's somebody in the

    13 house? A trained soldier, for example.

    14 A. It would be very foolish if the people that

    15 you were trying to shoot had any form of weapon.

    16 MR. SUSAK: Thank you. I have no further

    17 questions, Your Honours.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Terrier?

    19 MR. TERRIER: Just a few questions,

    20 Mr. President.

    21 Re-examined by Mr. Terrier:

    22 Q. Major Dooley, you said early on that as of

    23 your second trip to Ahmici and in the following passes,

    24 you saw from which general direction there was intense

    25 firing. I think that you mentioned a large machine

  101. 1 gun, if I may say so. If you had been able to see

    2 where it was precisely located, would you have returned

    3 fire with your own equipment?

    4 A. (Answer cut off by previous translation)

    5 ... on that occasion. We would have probably fired

    6 over their heads initially. If they continued to fire,

    7 then we would have engaged it, yes.

    8 Q. So on board your vehicles, did you have

    9 enough weaponry to represent any serious and dangerous

    10 resistance or opposition for the HVO forces and

    11 presence?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Earlier on, when answering a question raised

    14 by Mr. Radovic, you stated that the road from Busovaca

    15 to Vitez could indeed be regarded as important,

    16 strategically important for the HVO. Would you say the

    17 same for the road which is particular to the first road

    18 which goes to Upper Ahmici passing by the mosque?

    19 Would you say that that smaller road also had some kind

    20 of strategic interest for the HVO?

    21 A. Not really, no.

    22 Q. Speaking of roads presenting a strategic

    23 interest such as this, how would a regular army go

    24 about it, an army which only would have legitimate war

    25 goals, if it wanted to ensure the safety of the

  102. 1 strategic road? How would it go about it, technically

    2 speaking?

    3 A. We actually carried out this -- actually,

    4 what we did is we set up a checkpoint with our Warriors

    5 and we stopped all armed troops moving up and down of

    6 this road, and it was just -- the checkpoint was just

    7 off the map here (indicating).

    8 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I have no

    9 further questions. Thank you very much.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I have one

    11 question. I wonder whether the witness would be so

    12 kind as to elaborate on a point he made here in his

    13 written statement and again today in court.

    14 You said that the HVO operation, including

    15 the attack on Ahmici, was a well-planned and executed

    16 operation.

    17 A. It seemed very clear to me that it was, yes.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: My question is as follows:

    19 What particular elements can you point to which led you

    20 to this conclusion?

    21 A. Because they had a simultaneous, sequential

    22 attack on more than one occasion with obviously the

    23 same "H" Hour. We could tell that by the amount

    24 of fighting that had occurred. Also, as we, as a

    25 platoon, moved from one area to the next, the fighting

  103. 1 would immediately stop and would start somewhere well

    2 out of earshot which we would only discover by other

    3 reports or by coming upon it. So clearly they were

    4 switching the attack from one place to another upon

    5 orders.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: But then as a follow-up to

    7 your answer: Would you say that, as far as Ahmici was

    8 concerned, this operation, military operation,

    9 whatever, attack, was carried out by professional

    10 soldiers?

    11 A. Very definitely.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I assume there is

    13 no objection to the witness being released?

    14 Major, thank you so much for giving evidence

    15 in court. You may be released.

    16 (The witness withdrew)

    17 THE COURT: Number 4? (No translation)

    18 MR. TERRIER: It would be Witness N. The use

    19 of a pseudonym in terms of protective measures.

    20 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry. The interpretation

    21 didn't go through for a while. Change of channel.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Would you mind repeating what

    23 you said in terms of the use of a pseudonym?

    24 MR. TERRIER: Yes. The witness asked for the

    25 protective measures being the use of a pseudonym,

  104. 1 pseudonym N. It was the only protective measure the

    2 witness required.

    3 (The witness entered court)

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon. Would you

    5 please read the solemn declaration?

    6 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    7 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

    8 truth.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    10 seated.

    11 THE REGISTRAR: Document is marked Exhibit

    12 180.

    13 MR. TERRIER: May I proceed?

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Please go ahead. I'm sorry,

    15 but we could, from the outset, see whether there is,

    16 indeed, a mistake in the document that we have in front

    17 of us.

    18 MR. TERRIER: Yes. Don't read 1992, read

    19 1998.

    20 Examined by Mr. Terrier:

    21 Q. Witness N, you asked for protective measures,

    22 more specifically the use of a pseudonym. This was

    23 granted by the Tribunal. Therefore, your name will not

    24 be disclosed to anybody other than the members of the

    25 Trial Chamber and to the attorneys, to the counsel

  105. 1 present here today.

    2 To start with, could you tell us where you

    3 were born and when you were born?

    4 A. I was born on the 29th of January, 1957, in

    5 Prijedor, Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    6 Q. When and which circumstances did you arrive

    7 in Ahmici?

    8 A. I came from the Keraterm Camp, room number 3,

    9 cell number 3, the famous cell number 3, if you've

    10 heard of it.

    11 Q. Yes. This will be dealt with in another

    12 case, I believe.

    13 A. We were deported there. They were expelled,

    14 and to find some sort of peace after everything that

    15 had happened.

    16 Q. When exactly did you arrive in Ahmici, or at

    17 which time did you arrive?

    18 A. It was somewhere around the 20th of August, I

    19 think, in the morning, somewhere thereabouts.

    20 Q. Were you together with your relatives, with

    21 your family?

    22 A. (No audible response).

    23 Q. Without disclosing any names, without being

    24 too precise, in which area of Ahmici did you eventually

    25 settle?

  106. 1 A. In the upper part. That's the village. By

    2 the road next to the mosque, 20 metres from the mosque,

    3 about 40 metres from the road leading upwards from the

    4 main road.

    5 Q. Mr. President, could we move to closed

    6 session for just a few minutes, so that I should be

    7 able to show a photograph which will give more

    8 precision as to the place where the witness used to

    9 reside? I'll show this as soon as we are in closed

    10 session.

    11 (Closed session)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  107. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (Open session)

    7 MR. TERRIER: Are we back in public hearing?

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, we are.

    9 MR. TERRIER:

    10 Q. Let us first talk about the period stretching

    11 from August 1992, which is the time when you settled in

    12 Ahmici together with your family, until April 1993.

    13 First of all, did your family remain in

    14 Ahmici all that time?

    15 A. No. After 20 days they went to Austria.

    16 Q. So you remained in Ahmici but without your

    17 family; is that right?

    18 A. My sister-in-law there did not have enough

    19 space where they were living, so she could not -- first

    20 of all, they didn't have enough space and they didn't

    21 have enough money, finance, so I sent my wife and my

    22 children, and she supported them.

    23 Q. So during this time which goes from August

    24 '92 to April '93, were you part of the Territorial

    25 Defence?

  108. 1 A. I was not a member, but we have some sort of

    2 duty when the prayer to God was being held or something

    3 similar, so that the people could pray in peace in the

    4 mosque, something like that.

    5 Q. And during those patrols when you were on

    6 duty, were you, you personally, armed at all?

    7 A. No, I was not armed. I did not have any

    8 arms, I only had a short-barrelled, personal weapon.

    9 Q. Did you carry that weapon outside the house

    10 in which you were or did the weapon stay in the

    11 house?

    12 A. I carried it with me on my person.

    13 Q. During that time, from August '92 to April

    14 1993, what were your relationships with the Croatian

    15 inhabitants in Ahmici?

    16 A. We had normal relations with them. How shall

    17 I put it? There was nothing distinctive, there was

    18 nothing special. We greeted each other, we even did

    19 our shopping in their store nearby, Kupreskic's store,

    20 that is.

    21 Q. Did you personally know the owner of that

    22 shop?

    23 A. I did not know him personally, I just knew

    24 him, you know, like that, for the needs of the shopping

    25 which we did there.

  109. 1 Q. During that time, a few months before April

    2 1993, did you have any problems with a Croatian

    3 inhabitant in Ahmici?

    4 A. Yes, yes, yes. One day, I cannot remember, I

    5 cannot recall the exact date, I believe it was the

    6 Bajram feast, and they were praying to Allah, and

    7 Dragan Papic then threatened me, complete with uniform

    8 and the emblems of his unit, and -- you know. Of his

    9 formation.

    10 Q. That formation, that unit. Which were those

    11 insignia?

    12 A. I think that it was an insignia with a

    13 chequered flag and a horseshoe, and it was a black

    14 uniform. I believe it was the HOS. I'm not quite

    15 sure. I'm not initiated.

    16 Q. Was he carrying a weapon?

    17 A. No, did he not show any weapons. Perhaps

    18 under the jacket of his uniform. He was not armed

    19 then.

    20 Q. Did you know him well? Did you know Dragan

    21 Papic well?

    22 A. I did not know him when I saw him -- I just

    23 knew that he was -- how he looked like, a tall,

    24 slender, skinny man, a dark man, dark complexion also.

    25 Q. How can you be sure that the person who

  110. 1 threatened you was indeed also Dragan Papic?

    2 A. I believe that that person is there, as far

    3 as I can recall.

    4 Q. Witness N, I'll repeat my question: How can

    5 you be sure that the person who then threatened you was

    6 indeed the person named Dragan Papic? Indeed, you've

    7 just said that you knew Dragan Papic, but that you

    8 didn't know him that well, that you hadn't seen him

    9 that often. How can you be sure it was him who

    10 threatened you?

    11 A. I didn't know him before. I asked the local

    12 people who he was, what did he want, and they told me,

    13 "He's so and so," as we have already said. And on

    14 that same day, when I was asking why he was threatening

    15 me and showing me these badges and things, he was

    16 trying to frighten me. And he asked me where I was

    17 living. I didn't want to tell him. That was that.

    18 Q. But he didn't threaten you with a weapon?

    19 A. No, he was not threatening me with arms, but

    20 we could understand what it meant, such an introduction

    21 on his part. It was quite simple to understand.

    22 Q. With the leave of the court, I'd like to ask

    23 the witness whether he recognises the person he's just

    24 been speaking about, in this room.

    25 Witness N, do you recognise the person that

  111. 1 you have just spoken about, in this room?

    2 A. I think he is there. If I can point to him,

    3 I can.

    4 Q. Well, if you do recognise him, please

    5 indicate where he's sitting.

    6 A. Next to the door. The dark one with the

    7 moustache and the beard.

    8 Q. And how is he dressed?

    9 A. He has a white collar, suit jacket.

    10 MR. TERRIER: Is this identification enough

    11 for the court?

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, it is.

    13 MR. TERRIER:

    14 Q. For the sake of the transcript, we have to

    15 indicate that the witness did point to Dragan Papic.

    16 Witness N, what is your recollection of the

    17 16th of April, 1993?

    18 A. I remember just like I remember this

    19 Mr. Dragan here. I saw him then, and the impression

    20 has remained stuck in my mind for six years. The image

    21 hasn't changed.

    22 As for the 16th of April, there was an attack

    23 on the village, which had been planned. And on the

    24 15th, in the morning, the attack started by a direct

    25 hit on the minaret, if you know what that is, the

  112. 1 minaret of the mosque, which is actually the very

    2 skeleton of -- the skeleton, which was not a concrete

    3 framework, but it was only copper sheet, and it was --

    4 it took a direct hit. I believe that it was directly

    5 targeted and that it had been targeted the day before,

    6 because as the day in question was foggy, they could

    7 not have hit it so directly unless they had planned it

    8 before.

    9 I had gone out to the water fountain to wash

    10 my face, in front of the house, then things started to

    11 happen the way I described it. And they were shooting

    12 from all quarters, and an infantry attack came from the

    13 direction of the Catholic cemetery.

    14 Q. According to you, when was the minaret hit?

    15 A. 6.15; I looked at my watch at that precise

    16 moment.

    17 Q. Was it still dark or had dawn broken

    18 already?

    19 A. It was dawn, it was daylight, but it was

    20 foggy, misty.

    21 Q. Are you in a position to tell us where the

    22 fire, directed to the minaret, came from?

    23 A. The first shot that could be heard, I

    24 believe, was from the direction of Zume, but up towards

    25 the hill, not down there where the houses are in a sort

  113. 1 of lowland, but the upper part, so to speak, of the

    2 settlement.

    3 Q. Using the pointer which is on the table,

    4 could you indicate on the photograph, which is behind

    5 you, where this initial fire came from? You can take

    6 the pointer, turn towards the photograph which is

    7 behind you.

    8 Now, can you find your bearings on this map?

    9 Can you see where the minaret is? The minaret?

    10 A. The minaret was hit from this direction, I

    11 believe, Santici. It was hit from somewhere there

    12 directly, and the first shot could be heard from this

    13 side or thereabouts. It was some sort of a guiding

    14 missile, a guiding rocket.

    15 Q. And following that initial fire, what did you

    16 do?

    17 A. Out of the house of this landlord where I

    18 lived, there were many children in that house, and we

    19 were supposed to evacuate the children, the old and the

    20 infirm. And there were also animals. There was cattle

    21 in the barns. The cattle were supposed to be -- we had

    22 to let it out because it was already on fire. There

    23 were many people wounded, many people killed. We had

    24 had a lot of things to look after.

    25 Q. And so where did you go from there? Did you

  114. 1 leave the house at all?

    2 A. No, I didn't go out of the house. I went to

    3 the house of Vehbija, and Fahro was there very severely

    4 wounded, and we helped to dress his wounds. Ahmic is

    5 the surname. And we thought he needed to be evacuated,

    6 Fahro Ahmic, but we didn't know how to evacuate him in

    7 view of the fact that we came under fire.

    8 Q. Where did you see fire come from?

    9 A. I was passing between the kitchen, the

    10 summer -- the outside kitchen, which is a detached

    11 unit, and the house proper, and I personally was opened

    12 fire at from the direction of the Kupreskic's house.

    13 So that is directly down the road which leads from the

    14 mosque to the Kupreskic's place.

    15 Q. When you speak of the Kupreskic house, what

    16 do you precisely have in mind? Do you have the house

    17 in mind or other buildings, and of which Kupreskic are

    18 you speaking?

    19 A. Buildings, as far as I recall. First of all,

    20 they had their store, the shop, on which was the first

    21 concrete slab erected. And it was from that house that

    22 they opened fire at me personally.

    23 Q. Mentioning that house, and you said that

    24 there was firing in front of that house, what do you

    25 have in mind? We want things to be extremely clear.

  115. 1 You said that there was shooting coming from in front

    2 of the house, but which house do you speak about, do

    3 you have in mind?

    4 A. I can only show you on the picture, the

    5 photograph.

    6 Q. And so which photograph should I show you?

    7 A. Where the store was.

    8 MR. KRAJINA: Your Honours, we have an

    9 objection to this procedure and to the question. The

    10 witness should be allowed to say orally what the place

    11 was from which the fire came and not to show it on the

    12 photograph -- or rather, show him the photograph and

    13 let him say.

    14 A. May I say something to this gentleman who

    15 just spoke? Everything there has been turned

    16 upside-down, and excavated, and dug and reconstructed.

    17 It is enough to say that there was the store, and that

    18 the first concrete slab was on the store. It was a

    19 so-called liquor cellar or something like that, that

    20 store.

    21 MR. TERRIER: I was trying to be as supple as

    22 possible, but I think that there this is a problem that

    23 crops up with this type of witnesses, especially

    24 witnesses who were refugees in the village of Ahmici.

    25 When we mention this group of houses in Sutra, that

  116. 1 group of houses is usually known as the Kupreskic

    2 houses and only rarely are they singled out. The

    3 witness did not know Kupreskic personally, even though

    4 he knew that Kupreskic had a shop. As a result, it's

    5 very difficult for witnesses to specify which building

    6 in particular they have in mind.

    7 I do regret not having a very specific map in

    8 front of me of the those few houses, of that grouping

    9 of houses that belong to the Kupreskics, so I would

    10 like to show photographs to the witness. Those

    11 photographs have already been tendered, they are

    12 exhibits, and I would like to seek information using

    13 those photographs if you do allow me so.

    14 MR. KRAJINA: Your Honours, to the question

    15 of the Prosecutor, the witness clearly said that the

    16 shots were in front of the store which is under the

    17 concrete slab. I believe that that is a very clearly

    18 defined location, and that there is no need whatsoever

    19 for any other buildings to be shown in connection with

    20 that question. Thank you.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: I wonder whether we could ask

    22 the witness to provide further information without a

    23 photograph being shown to him. It is true that if he's

    24 shown a photograph where there's already a circle being

    25 drawn around the house, that would be easy.

  117. 1 MR. TERRIER: That was not my intention,

    2 Mr. President. Maybe the following question could be

    3 asked: The witness has just described a building, in

    4 front of which there was a weapon which he saw.

    5 Q. Witness N, would you be in a position to give

    6 the most precise description of the building in front

    7 of which you saw a weapon, something being used to

    8 fire?

    9 MR. KRAJINA: Mr. President, we object. As

    10 far as I recall, the witness did not mention any arms

    11 in his statement. He only spoke of the direction from

    12 which shooting could be heard. Thank you.

    13 MR. TERRIER: Well, I thought that if there

    14 was firing, there should be a weapon.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. You can't have firing

    16 without a weapon. It was implicit, wasn't it?

    17 MR. KRAJINA: The witness need not see the

    18 arm in question.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: That is true.

    20 MR. TERRIER: Let's ask the question.

    21 Q. Witness N, did you see the weapon used to

    22 fire in your direction or to fire at you? Were you

    23 able to see that weapon?

    24 A. I apologise. Can I show on this picture, if

    25 everything is clear enough to everybody? Can I show it

  118. 1 on the photograph? I know geography very well. I had

    2 5, the top mark, in geography at school. I was

    3 interested in geography as a science.

    4 Q. Yes, do that. But prior to that, please

    5 answer a couple of questions. First question: Did you

    6 see the weapon that was used to fire at you? You said

    7 a few moments ago that you were being fired on. Did

    8 you see the weapon that was used on that occasion?

    9 A. Well, this is what I saw. The bunker was

    10 there in front of the shop, in the direction of the

    11 road, leading towards the main road, and direct control

    12 of the road so that if you even so much as put your

    13 nose out, you would be certainly dead; and if you were

    14 not fast enough and ran across this space fast enough,

    15 you were in danger of your life.

    16 Q. You mention a bunker. Did you see the weapon

    17 which was then used to fire?

    18 A. A weapon -- I think that it was a large

    19 calibre, not a small arm. It was some sort of Browing,

    20 anti-aircraft, a small Browing anti-aircraft weapon.

    21 Q. You have just mentioned a bunker. What do

    22 you have in mind? What is, according to you, a bunker?

    23 A. Well, sandbags, in fact, piled up one above

    24 the other to protect the individual shooting. He would

    25 hide behind the sandbags.

  119. 1 Q. How high would those sandbags be piled up?

    2 A. Well, they were just the right height so that

    3 they could sit down and shoot in chairs.

    4 Q. As you suggested, you have behind you an

    5 aerial photograph of the village of Ahmici. Would you

    6 mind using the pointer to show us where those sandbags,

    7 the bunker was, together with the weapon?

    8 A. Well, as I showed you -- let me show you

    9 exactly so that it's clear to one and all. Look at

    10 this. Take a look at this. The road is straight, and

    11 only from this point was gunfire able to protect this

    12 road and to shoot straight up to this intersection.

    13 There is a curvature down here and some houses, but

    14 that's not essential. So that is the control point.

    15 There is a canal here and a forest there, a thicket.

    16 These are the woods, this is the canal (indicating).

    17 Is that enough for you?

    18 MR. TERRIER: I think that it can be noted

    19 for the transcript that the witness pointed to the shop

    20 in Sutre as being the place the shooting originated

    21 from.

    22 Q. What time did this firing take place?

    23 A. The shooting was about 10.00 in the morning

    24 for the most part.

    25 Q. Please wait a moment.

  120. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: It seems to be rather

    2 important for you to have the witness indicate from

    3 which house the firing was coming. I wonder whether,

    4 during the break, you could use the time to present an

    5 enlarged photograph without the circles being put on

    6 it. So a larger photograph which might be more

    7 specific, give us more detail, than this one, which is

    8 too big, so that the witness could indicate where the

    9 house was. Is that possible during the break?

    10 MR. TERRIER: I shall look into this.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: So we will have the break for

    12 30 minutes, as usual.

    13 --- Recess taken at 3.35 p.m.

    14 --- On resuming at 4.10 p.m.

    15 MR. TERRIER: Mr. Usher, would you mind

    16 showing this photograph, this aerial photograph, to the

    17 witness?

    18 I shall mention to the Court that I did not

    19 meet up with the witness during the break, anticipating

    20 what might be raised as an objection.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, we have just handed in

    22 our decision to the registry - you shall receive it

    23 either today or tomorrow morning - a ruling regarding

    24 any contacts between one party and its witnesses.

    25 THE REGISTRAR: The photograph is marked

  121. 1 Exhibit 182.

    2 MR. TERRIER:

    3 Q. Witness N, prior to the break, you stated

    4 having seen a high-calibre weapon that was behind

    5 sandbags. You now see a photograph. Could you, using

    6 the pointer, indicate where exactly that weapon was

    7 located which was used?

    8 A. Here in front of this facility (indicating).

    9 Q. Thank you very much. Could you take one of

    10 the pens lying on the table and could you draw a circle

    11 around that location?

    12 A. (Marks)

    13 MR. TERRIER: Thank you. Could the witness

    14 be shown Prosecution Exhibit 33?

    15 Q. Witness N, do you recognise and can you

    16 identify what is being shown on this photograph?

    17 A. Yes. On the left-hand side, this building is

    18 what I've been talking about, in front of the car. Is

    19 that sufficient?

    20 Q. Well, it is enough for me. But one more

    21 thing to specify. You may have said so already, in

    22 which case, please say it again. What time was it when

    23 you saw that weapon being used, being fired?

    24 A. It was about 10.00, and it was precisely then

    25 that I was to pass by, going up towards the hill. I

  122. 1 carried a small child. In passing, in the ditch I saw

    2 a woman lying who lived behind. I can show you the

    3 house in which the woman lived. She was killed. Her

    4 daughter was wounded and a relation of mine as well was

    5 seriously injured.

    6 Q. Do you know how long the firing, originating

    7 from that location which you've just shown, how long

    8 the firing lasted?

    9 A. Yes. They didn't last very long, but they

    10 did what they set out to do, they fulfilled the task

    11 that they had.

    12 Q. Do you have any other recollection from that

    13 day, the 16th of April, 1993?

    14 A. Well, it was hell. The village was

    15 encircled, almost under an encirclement. You could

    16 only leave from one side but you couldn't during the

    17 day. They fired with heavy guns and different

    18 ammunition and mortars, fragmentation, weapons,

    19 snipers, and so on.

    20 Q. When and under which circumstances were you

    21 able to leave Ahmici?

    22 A. We succeeded in leaving at about 2.00 p.m.

    23 Armoured vehicles came, UN APC vehicles, at 2.00 p.m.

    24 came and that was when it was all over, when that hell

    25 came to an end, ceased.

  123. 1 Q. So at the very beginning of the afternoon,

    2 you were able to leave Ahmici; is that right?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Where did you go? In which direction did you

    5 go?

    6 A. Zenica.

    7 MR. TERRIER: Thank you very much,

    8 Witness N.

    9 I have no further questions for this

    10 witness. The only thing I shall ask is that Exhibits

    11 180, 181, and 182 be tendered into evidence.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Pavkovic?

    13 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Honours, I can inform you

    14 that the witness will be questioned by Counsel Borislav

    15 Krajina, Petar Puliselic, Ranko Radovic, and Jadranka

    16 Slokovic-Glumac.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel Krajina?

    18 MR. KRAJINA: Thank you, Mr. President.

    19 Cross-examined by Mr. Krajina:

    20 Q. Witness, I have three questions to ask you.

    21 As they're not long questions, I hope the answers won't

    22 be long either.

    23 Did I understand you correctly when you said

    24 that there was shooting from the bunker that you

    25 mentioned and you said that it was located in front of

  124. 1 the shop and that this shooting controlled the road

    2 from the point where the bunker was located up to the

    3 mosque? Did I understand you properly?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Thank you. My second question: Did you

    6 state that from that particular point, they were not

    7 able to control the direction towards the forest, the

    8 shooting direction towards the forest, and you showed

    9 us that on the photograph, on the map?

    10 A. Well, not with the weapons that were used to

    11 guard the road.

    12 Q. Very well. Thank you. That's enough. My

    13 third and last question: Would you take this exhibit,

    14 Prosecution Exhibit 182 -- could you show this exhibit

    15 to the witness, please? -- and could you, Witness,

    16 indicate, say place the letter "sh," the suma, the

    17 forest that you mentioned and that you said the area

    18 which could not be controlled, so a letter "sh,"

    19 please?

    20 A. I apologise. You understood me to say that

    21 there was just one barrel.

    22 Q. No, that's not essential. It's not

    23 important. We're not interested in that at the

    24 moment. What I'm interested in is for you to show us

    25 where the forest is.

  125. 1 A. That is the forest, these are the houses

    2 along the road, and behind the houses was the forest

    3 and the canal (indicating).

    4 Q. What is this to the left-hand side? You went

    5 from the mosque downwards. A move forward to the left,

    6 what is to the left of the bunker here, in this

    7 direction? There is the white surface, and you marked

    8 it with a red marker. And then to the left, up above,

    9 to the left, there, is that a forest as well? Down

    10 below, lower down, two or three centimetres lower down,

    11 please. Not up, down, in the opposite direction

    12 another centimetre. That. Is that the forest? Don't

    13 go up. Stay where I indicated, one centimetre

    14 downwards, please. No, you're going up. Down on the

    15 photograph.

    16 A. It is difficult to say on this particular

    17 photograph what the forest is.

    18 Q. I apologise, but if you want to --

    19 A. You're not going to get an answer if you want

    20 to trick me.

    21 Q. Why should I trick you? I'm not here to

    22 trick you.

    23 A. I am not a minor, I am an adult.

    24 MR. TERRIER: Perhaps counsel could simply

    25 ask the witness where the forest is. It seems to be a

  126. 1 simpler question, a simpler way of going about it.

    2 MR. KRAJINA:

    3 Q. We're going to mark the forest --

    4 A. It's not all a forest, one length of forest,

    5 but there are some fields and hills and a ditch, a

    6 canal, and so on, so it's not one length of forest.

    7 MR. KRAJINA: Mr. President, please. On this

    8 photograph, we have marked the location of the forest.

    9 Can we show this to the witness so that he can tell us

    10 whether that is the location of the forest or not? I

    11 think that is the simplest method.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Could you please --

    13 THE WITNESS: Can I say something for -- let

    14 me say something. The forest was cut down later on, so

    15 that is something that you must take into account.

    16 MR. KRAJINA:

    17 Q. We're talking, sir, about the 16th of April,

    18 1993.

    19 A. Yes. There was a forest there then.

    20 Q. Well, then there's no misunderstanding. So

    21 I'm going to show you this photograph.

    22 A. On the photograph, I can't show you the

    23 forest now.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Why not?

    25 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President --

  127. 1 A. Because the forest isn't on the photograph

    2 any longer. There were trees.

    3 MR. KRAJINA:

    4 Q. I'm going to give you a photograph, and with

    5 this circle, we marked the spot which we considered was

    6 the forest, and you will tell us whether, on the 16th

    7 of April, 1993, there was a forest actually there.

    8 MR. TERRIER: Mr. Krajina, explain to us what

    9 a forest is, because in French, a forest is a cluster,

    10 quite a solid cluster of trees closely put together.

    11 It is quite a large patch of vegetation. So it's very

    12 extensive.

    13 Is that what Mr. Krajina has in mind? I

    14 don't know. There seems to be a misunderstanding. If

    15 he would specify what a forest is, maybe that could be

    16 resolved.

    17 MR. KRAJINA: There is no misunderstanding.

    18 We're both Bosnians, myself and the witness, and we

    19 understand each other 100 per cent. He is not a

    20 Frenchman nor am I a Frenchman. That's as clear as

    21 day. So, Mr. President, I'm asking the witness whether

    22 that particular place is the forest that we're talking

    23 about.

    24 Q. So will you give us an answer, please? Have

    25 you had a look?

  128. 1 A. Yes. That is your second photograph.

    2 Q. It's not our photograph, it is the

    3 Prosecution's photograph.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Witness N, do cooperate with

    5 the Tribunal and tell Counsel Krajina whether this is

    6 the right place, whether the forest is located there.

    7 I see you marked -- yes.

    8 A. I'm going to tell you that it is not one

    9 length of uninterrupted forest but that there are

    10 trees, there is a forest, and then fields and then

    11 trees again.

    12 MR. KRAJINA:

    13 Q. Well, I know Ahmici, I've known Ahmici longer

    14 than you have, so would you please show us whether the

    15 mark we have made, whether that particular place was a

    16 forest or not?

    17 A. You want to mislead me, you want to trick me,

    18 but you are mistaken if you think you're going to be

    19 able to do that.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Krajina is not trying

    21 to mislead you. He has just put to you a question, and

    22 you should give a straightforward answer. Just tell us

    23 whether this is the appropriate mark, whether this mark

    24 designates a forest, indicates the forest.

    25 A. Can I show you on the big picture, on the big

  129. 1 photograph, where the forest was and where the fields

    2 were, so that everybody can see? Because this is

    3 rather dark. Can I, on the big one?

    4 MR. KRAJINA: Mr. President --

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: First on the big one and then

    6 on the small one.

    7 MR. KRAJINA: Mr. President, I think that we

    8 can make this, what appears to be a misunderstanding, a

    9 little easier.

    10 Q. Could the witness say whether the spot we

    11 have marked with the letter X, to tell us, regardless

    12 of whether it's a forest or not, whether, from where

    13 the bunker was located, could you control the range of

    14 shooting from that point, to control that point?

    15 A. Will you repeat, please?

    16 Q. Yes. You saw on the photograph what we

    17 marked with the X, that particular position, and we

    18 said that that was a sort of forest. Now, let's leave

    19 the forest alone. What I'm asking you now is, that

    20 from the spot where the bunker was located and from the

    21 spot that the shooting came from, could this particular

    22 spot be controlled, the spot marked with X?

    23 A. Do you mean the road?

    24 Q. No, not the road. That particular point

    25 which is marked X on the photograph.

  130. 1 A. Well, the picture is not very clear. It's

    2 unclear.

    3 MR. KRAJINA: Mr. President, I withdraw my

    4 question. I can't carry on with this.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. I would like to warn

    6 you, Witness N, you have to say the truth and cooperate

    7 with the Tribunal, so would you please answer the

    8 question put to you by Counsel Krajina?

    9 THE WITNESS: I said that I would like to

    10 show where the forest was and where the meadow was on

    11 the big photograph, and that will be enough for this

    12 question.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: No, no, because Counsel

    14 Krajina also put to you a second question.

    15 THE WITNESS: The second question. Well,

    16 yes, I'll get to the second question too. I will say

    17 the following: Later on, they discovered that I was in

    18 the former JNA, Yugoslav People's Army. I was doing

    19 maintenance and repair work for artillery weapons, and

    20 I am quite clear, and the gentleman is quite wrong, if

    21 I don't know what can be done with that kind of

    22 weaponry from that particular spot. It is special --

    23 they are special weapons which are effective in all

    24 directions, a Browing, a Swedish Browing, or something

    25 of the kind, a similar name.

  131. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Do you mean to say that from

    2 that spot with that particular gun, one could control

    3 also the area which has been marked by Counsel Krajina

    4 with an X?

    5 THE WITNESS: Not all of it. Not the whole

    6 area on the left. It was the intention that this

    7 particular weapon should fire at the road, from which

    8 direction civilians were to be taken from the school.

    9 One civilian was seriously injured, and somebody will

    10 have to pay for that bodily injury, and those kinds of

    11 wounds can only be sustained by a heavy weapon, not

    12 just a small gun or pistol.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Krajina?

    14 MR. KRAJINA: Please, Your Honours,

    15 Mr. President, again, photograph number 182 be tendered

    16 as an exhibit with the mark X which we put on it and

    17 nothing more. It was all reduced to a soil

    18 configuration, et cetera. We have nothing more to

    19 add.

    20 A. Can I say something? These photographs are

    21 different, and why are they different? Why are they

    22 different, I ask, this one and that one there? As far

    23 as clarity's concerned. As far as clarity's

    24 concerned. Well, as far as I can see, they are

    25 different.

  132. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Does the Prosecution object

    2 to tendering this document into evidence? No

    3 objection?

    4 MR. TERRIER: Well, Mr. President, the

    5 witness mentions a difference. I didn't quite gather

    6 what difference it was. He said the difference between

    7 two photographs or the difference between the

    8 photograph and reality that he was able to witness.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: He said the one was clearer

    10 than the other, the other one is darker.

    11 MR. TERRIER: That's what the witness said?

    12 A. I can show on this photograph in front of me

    13 where the forest is and approximately the other

    14 configuration, elements, as the other gentleman asked

    15 me to.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: I'm sorry, I didn't

    17 understand. Do you mean that on the other photographs,

    18 you would be able to mark the particular spot, the

    19 forest?

    20 A. On the large photograph the forest has been

    21 felled, and there are only some branches on the spot

    22 which can be seen.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Let's go back to this

    24 document, and I wonder once again, does the Prosecution

    25 have any objection to the tendering of that document

  133. 1 into evidence? With the mark, I mean, the photograph

    2 marked by --

    3 MR. TERRIER: No objection, Mr. President.

    4 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit is marked D3/3.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel Krajina.

    6 We move on to Counsel Puliselic.

    7 Cross-examined by Mr. Puliselic:

    8 Q. Witness, I would like to ask you whether you

    9 had made any statements before to anyone else regarding

    10 the events in Ahmici. Do you remember that you have

    11 given any such statements to anyone else?

    12 A. No, I never wanted to give any statements,

    13 because people ask for money -- rather, they offer

    14 money for that, and I did not think myself entitled to

    15 something like that, to earn money because of somebody

    16 else's misfortune.

    17 Q. But did you make any such statements to any

    18 official institutions, to any official bodies?

    19 A. No, to no one.

    20 Q. We do have a statement here which you gave to

    21 AID. Are you aware of what AID, A-I-D, is, what kind

    22 of an organisation?

    23 A. No, I do not know. They should have

    24 addressed me. They addressed me and told me what they

    25 wanted, and I said no dice, no way.

  134. 1 Q. Yes, but this is your signature here. Do you

    2 recall that? Do you recall having made any statement?

    3 A. No, I do not, no.

    4 Q. You don't. Okay. You said that you came to

    5 Ahmici from a camp. Were you in this camp alone or

    6 with your family?

    7 A. I was there, as well as, normally, the

    8 others. And as you are aware, there were seven camps.

    9 Q. You said that your family had gone to

    10 Austria, and that there had been no room for you

    11 there. Was that the only reason why you yourself did

    12 not go to Austria, or was there perhaps another

    13 reason?

    14 A. We talked on the phone, and my sister-in-law

    15 said that she was unable to accommodate us all for lack

    16 of space, and that she could take in the children, the

    17 women and the elderly, and could the not take in the

    18 others because she herself was living in another man's

    19 house, in somebody else's house, she did not have a

    20 flat of her own.

    21 Q. Today here in court, you said that on one

    22 occasion you were threatened by Dragan Papic, that you

    23 saw him in a black uniform and that on that occasion he

    24 threatened you. Can you tell us what was it exactly

    25 that he was saying to you while he was threatening

  135. 1 you?

    2 A. He came up to me wearing this uniform and a

    3 badge, showed me the badge.

    4 Q. But he didn't say anything to you?

    5 A. Yes, he did. He asked me what my address

    6 was, where I was residing, and I didn't want to tell

    7 him.

    8 Q. So you construe that his appearing in that

    9 black uniform as a threat?

    10 A. Yes, certainly, but you know why. We, the

    11 wretched exiles that we were, we were all down there in

    12 the Milicevici's house, and if we were not in that

    13 house, we would have ended up like those people who had

    14 been expelled from in Foca. And we know how they ended

    15 up, they were all killed off. And at the Milicevici's

    16 house, they were in charge of that, of executing those

    17 people. Only three managed to save their lives -- to

    18 flee, rather, because one person who had the necessary

    19 paper to be able to move about, the necessary permit,

    20 he worked at the bakery in Vitez, he came and told

    21 these people to retreat, to pull out, to go away from

    22 the cottages, the vacationing cottages where these

    23 misfortunate people were killed.

    24 Q. I only asked you where this meeting took

    25 place, this encounter, when you met with this person

  136. 1 that other people told you was called Dragan Papic.

    2 A. That encounter took place -- there was a

    3 prayer going on in front of the mosque. The people go

    4 to the mosque in the afternoon and pray to God.

    5 Mr. Dragan was then there. I had not seen him ever

    6 before that, until today, of course, and since.

    7 Q. So you had never seen him before that and you

    8 haven't seen him since until today?

    9 A. Right.

    10 Q. Was anyone else present when you met him?

    11 A. No, no one else was there, because at that

    12 time everybody was in the mosque. There were not any

    13 people passing by. There were no passers-by, there were

    14 no other citizens present.

    15 Q. Are you quite sure that the person that you

    16 indicated here today is the person that you met on that

    17 occasion?

    18 A. I am a hundred per cent sure, and I know the

    19 people that he killed, and he should carry them on his

    20 conscience.

    21 Q. Did you see him?

    22 A. He killed Rasim Pezer, and I knew that man.

    23 I let him in Vehbija Ahmic's kitchen.

    24 Q. But did you see him kill him?

    25 A. And later his father was also killed, and I

  137. 1 believe that was also by Dragan.

    2 Q. Why do you believe that? On the basis of

    3 which?

    4 A. Because I saw him when he was hit. I saw

    5 them both when they were hit.

    6 Q. But in your previous statement you said that

    7 you didn't see that, but that you had heard about it,

    8 but now you claim that you saw it?

    9 A. I saw them dead. In front of the house where

    10 they had been hit I saw some neighbours, I believe they

    11 were the Vidovics. They had no weapons, they were just

    12 walking in front in the courtyard. And as the shooting

    13 died down --

    14 Q. But how old was this Kasim Pezer?

    15 A. He was an elderly man. He was around 60 or

    16 so.

    17 Q. Can you say that -- whether on the occasion

    18 of that meeting with the person who you claim others

    19 told you was Dragan Papic, did you see anything

    20 conspicuous standing out on his face for instance? Did

    21 you see any particular mark on his face which one would

    22 normally observe as conspicuous?

    23 A. Yes, I did. I believe that that is a person

    24 who is easily induced to do things. I believe that

    25 there is something wrong in his behaviour. He sort of

  138. 1 winked and there were some tics.

    2 Q. Did you notice something on his face?

    3 A. He didn't look you straight in the eye.

    4 Q. Yes, but did he wear a beard?

    5 A. I don't recall whether then he wore a beard.

    6 Q. But you said that you saw some insignia on

    7 his uniform, so that you concluded that he was a member

    8 of the H-O-S, of the HOS. I believe that's what you

    9 said.

    10 A. Yes. It was hard to distinguish and decide

    11 who belonged to whom at that time, to what ranks, to

    12 what formations.

    13 Q. Yes, but judging by the uniform you said that

    14 you concluded that he belonged to the HOS.

    15 A. It was difficult to say why, because no one

    16 knew who was in command, who was giving the orders.

    17 Had that been known, perhaps no such things would have

    18 happened, would have been done arbitrarily by people

    19 without any commands.

    20 Q. Do you know that the army of Bosnia and

    21 Herzegovina, and the HOS cooperated and had joint

    22 operations?

    23 A. Yes, but that was only a cunning trick. The

    24 only thing which mattered was to get the necessary

    25 troops. And of course, normally they bought soldiers

  139. 1 for money because they also needed to earn a living.

    2 Q. Can you recall where this meeting took place

    3 and what time it was exactly?

    4 A. It was noon. It was 12.00. I cannot exactly

    5 recall the date.

    6 Q. Can you recall the month?

    7 A. No, I cannot even recall the month, because

    8 you know what, if I were able to tell you everything

    9 which took place then, I would already be a deranged

    10 person.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Puliselic. We

    12 have two more Defence counsel who wish to cross-examine

    13 the witness. We have to stop at five to five.

    14 I wonder whether we can finish or probably one of you

    15 could probably now go on until five to five? Is that

    16 fine? Counsel Radovic, do you think you could -- ten

    17 minutes would be sufficient?

    18 MR. RADOVIC: I'll try. I don't think that I

    19 have many questions to ask, just en passant.

    20 Cross-examined by Mr. Radovic:

    21 Q. You said today that you were not included in

    22 the Territorial Defence, but that you were on guard

    23 duty in front of the mosque; is that correct?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. In the statement that you gave to AID on the

  140. 1 6th of May '98, you said, "I was included in the

    2 Territorial Defence in Ahmici."

    3 A. I apologise. It was not Territorial

    4 Defence.

    5 Q. That's what it states in the statement, TO in

    6 Ahmici?

    7 A. Well, it was a sort of preventative group.

    8 It was nothing in comparison to what they were

    9 preparing.

    10 Q. I didn't ask you that. I just asked whether

    11 what you told AID was correct, whether you were

    12 included in the Territorial Defence in Ahmici.

    13 A. Well, you should know what Territorial

    14 Defence means.

    15 Q. Yes, I know full well what it means because I

    16 come from the same area from which you come, and as far

    17 as Territorial Defence and the organisation of

    18 Territorial Defence, I know everything about it. So

    19 please tell me whether you became a member of the

    20 Territorial Defence or not, or perhaps you don't

    21 remember whether you did or did not.

    22 A. Well, there must be guard duty for every

    23 facility on every territory, and Territorial Defence,

    24 as far as I know, does not win over something belonging

    25 to somebody else, but just defends what is theirs.

  141. 1 Q. Well, were you included in the Territorial

    2 Defence to defend what was yours?

    3 A. Is that important? Is that very important to

    4 you?

    5 MR. RADOVIC: Well, Mr. President, I don't

    6 know what to do with this witness. If he doesn't wish

    7 to answer this particular question, let me go on to my

    8 next question.

    9 Q. Did you have any function, any position in

    10 the system of defence and social self-protection, which

    11 is the term used to refer to that particular job, on

    12 the basis of which you would have information as to

    13 facts outside your range of vision?

    14 A. Absolutely nothing. I'll tell you exactly.

    15 What was important for me at the time was that my

    16 children were safe and for me to reach safety, and that

    17 was not possible at the time. Do you understand me?

    18 Q. I asked you whether you held any function

    19 which would enable you to speak about the facts outside

    20 your range of vision.

    21 A. Nothing, no.

    22 Q. That's what I'm asking you, because you spoke

    23 about matters that you could not have seen yourself,

    24 but it doesn't matter.

    25 You spoke about the month of October 1992,

  142. 1 and you said that members of the HVO from Busovaca

    2 moved towards -- from Busovaca towards Travnik to help

    3 the forces at Novi Travnik. How do you know that these

    4 individuals who set out on that road were from

    5 Busovaca, and how do you know that they were going in

    6 the direction of Novi Travnik?

    7 A. This is not an important point.

    8 Q. I'm not asking you to assess what is

    9 essential and what isn't, I'm just asking you how you

    10 know this.

    11 A. Right. I'll answer you then.

    12 Q. Well, go on then, answer.

    13 A. I was present when the first conflict broke

    14 out. They said that they could not pass and said that

    15 we would return from Busovaca, and they returned the

    16 next morning with the artillery --

    17 Q. They told you that they had come from

    18 Busovaca. So you were at the barricades there. Very

    19 well. Finally I have found somebody who was at the

    20 barricades. Where were you at the barricades?

    21 A. Well, the barricade was around the cemetery.

    22 Q. And where were you personally located on this

    23 barricade?

    24 A. Well, we were --

    25 Q. Don't say "we", because it means more of us.

  143. 1 When I'm asking you, I'm asking you personally.

    2 A. Well, I was there 30 metres from the

    3 barricade where, if you recall, there were entrenched

    4 positions, and later on it was decided to destroy

    5 these. There was a control and everything was all

    6 right.

    7 Q. And who made up these fortifications?

    8 A. The TO, as you say, the TO which was to

    9 defend the village.

    10 Q. Well, while you were 30 metres from the road

    11 in the fortified position of the TO, did you have any

    12 weapons?

    13 A. No, we didn't.

    14 Q. Did anybody at the barricade have weapons?

    15 A. Some of the young men who were included into

    16 the army, were members of the army of

    17 Bosnia-Herzegovina beforehand, they were already

    18 experienced.

    19 Q. Well, how many of these experienced young men

    20 were there who had weapons and who already knew what

    21 war was?

    22 A. Well, four from the village.

    23 Q. And tell me, please, whether a group from

    24 another village came to help you out.

    25 A. No, no help arrived. And when you know

  144. 1 everything, then everything becomes quite clear as to

    2 the outcome.

    3 Q. Yes, we know the outcome, but I'm interested

    4 to know how it started.

    5 A. Well, it started because we had one miner

    6 killed and several houses burnt, and, therefore, the

    7 depression that set in. This person was killed after

    8 the barricade had been set up.

    9 Q. No. You mean he was killed before the

    10 barricade was set up.

    11 A. No, not before.

    12 Q. When then?

    13 I apologise, Mr. President, but I didn't

    14 think that I would take up so much time to go into

    15 detail.

    16 A. He was killed during the attack from the

    17 hill, from the positions there.

    18 Q. And tell me how the barricades came to be set

    19 up? Was it on orders from somebody or was that the

    20 will of the people, spontaneously to go down to the

    21 road and set up a barricade there?

    22 A. It is common knowledge that in Novi Travnik

    23 the war had already began. Everybody knew this. We

    24 knew it from the news bulletins and so on.

    25 Q. I'm asking you directly. How was the

  145. 1 barricade set up? Was there an order from a higher

    2 command or not?

    3 A. I think that an order came from the higher

    4 command.

    5 Q. And where was this command, from Zenica or

    6 from Sarajevo?

    7 A. I don't know. I don't know where from,

    8 because I was not an officer among the ranks of

    9 officers for me to know this.

    10 Q. Well, tell me, when you found yourself there

    11 you said you were 30 metres away from the road. What

    12 were you, in fact, doing there? You said that you did

    13 not have any weapons, that you did not have any

    14 function to perform, so as you went to this position

    15 which was in the trenches on the barricade --

    16 Mr. President, I apologise but I won't be

    17 able to complete my questioning because we've just

    18 started. So should we leave it for tomorrow? I didn't

    19 think it would take as long as this?

    20 A. Can I answer?

    21 MR. RADOVIC: No, we've finished. Thank

    22 you. We'll continue tomorrow.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: So we resume tomorrow at 9.30

    24 sharp.

    25 --- Whereupon hearing adjourned at 4.55 p.m.

  146. 1 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 22nd

    2 day of September, 1998 at 9.30 a.m.