1. 1 Wednesday, 23rd September, 1998

    2 (Open session)

    3 (The accused entered court)

    4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

    5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.

    6 Case number IT-95-16-T, the Prosecutor versus Zoran

    7 Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago

    8 Josipovic, Dragan Papic, Vladimir Santic, also known as

    9 "Vlado."

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Good morning.

    11 Before we start, may I say that yesterday, I realised

    12 that Mr. Josipovic had some difficulty in looking at

    13 the witness and had to move backwards, probably because

    14 of the pillar. I think it is a basic and fundamental

    15 right of the accused to take a look at the witness so

    16 that he can afterwards confer with his Defence

    17 counsel. So this morning I checked with an officer

    18 early in the morning, and we realised that actually

    19 from there, if you sit and want to take notes, you

    20 can't see the witness. So I asked whether arrangements

    21 could be made so that you can -- probably that table

    22 can be moved a little bit so you, Mr Josipovic, don't have any

    23 difficulty in looking at the witness. But I hope that

    24 at lunch time measures will be taken, and if you have

    25 any problem, please let me know.

  2. 1 Yes, Counsel Krajina?

    2 MR. KRAJINA: Good morning, Your Honours.

    3 Mr. President, yesterday I failed to give you a precise

    4 answer as to when the videotape was taken exactly, the

    5 videotape that was shown yesterday in the courtroom.

    6 The videotape was filmed on the 18th of

    7 March, 1998, in Ahmici, and we informed the Prosecutor

    8 of the date in the letter that we sent him accompanying

    9 the videotape.

    10 I have a written statement of the individual

    11 which appears on the videotape which was given on the

    12 same day that the tape was filmed. Thank you.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you so much, Counsel

    14 Krajina.

    15 Mr. Terrier?

    16 MR. TERRIER: Thank you very much. The Court

    17 expressed the wish to have the Prosecutor express her

    18 views in relation to a motion filed in relation to the

    19 Cerkez and Kordic proceedings. We were going to speak

    20 about that during the course of the day. We are ready

    21 to state our views to the Court.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Well, it depends on the time

    23 you need to do so. Could that be dealt with quite

    24 quickly? How long do you need?

    25 MR. TERRIER: Five minutes. It won't take

  3. 1 very long.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Well, go ahead.

    3 MR. TERRIER: I would like to state that this

    4 motion filed by counsel for Kordic and Cerkez requires

    5 disclosure of testimonies done in closed session before

    6 the Court and the filing of exhibits filed under seal.

    7 The Defence of both accused is based on Article 20 of

    8 the Statute which guarantees the rights, fundamental

    9 rights, of the Defence, it maintains the needs

    10 expressed by the Defence as well as an order for

    11 protective measures issued by the Trial Chamber on the

    12 27th of January which could be notified and extended to

    13 statements which would have to be filed pursuant to

    14 such a motion.

    15 We want to state that according to the

    16 practice established by this Trial Chamber, to the

    17 extent possible, the principle of the publicity of our

    18 hearings has been adhered to, has been respected. We

    19 only move to closed sessions when there was a problem

    20 related to the possible identification of a protected

    21 witness, so this is very restricted when you see

    22 everything that has been made available and everything

    23 that has been done during these hearings.

    24 The second argument I would like to put

    25 forward is as follows: As far as I know, in the

  4. 1 Kordic-Cerkez case, there has been no disclosure based

    2 on Rule 66; therefore, the request filed to you is of a

    3 very general nature. It relates to all statements or

    4 testimonies made in closed sessions and all statements

    5 under seal.

    6 The very general nature of this motion

    7 creates a problem; indeed, if such a motion was to be

    8 granted. Irrelevant testimonies, when it comes to the

    9 Defence of the accused Kordic and Cerkez, would be

    10 disclosed. Therefore, I have the feeling that today,

    11 given the state of the proceedings instituted against

    12 Kordic and Cerkez, this request is premature. If,

    13 later, in the course of the proceedings, the Defence

    14 was able to specify its request, I would have

    15 absolutely no objection. It would even be necessary

    16 for such statements under seal and such exhibits under

    17 seal to be disclosed. But given the very general

    18 nature of the present motion, it creates a problem. If

    19 it related to relevant testimonies for the Defence, it

    20 would not be a problem at all. But as it is, it seems

    21 to be premature.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you very much. If I

    23 could ask Counsel Pavkovic whether he is also in a

    24 position to set out the position of the Defence on this

    25 issue?

  5. 1 MR. PAVKOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

    2 The Defence has reviewed the motion filed by the

    3 Defence counsel of Cerkez, and we agree that all the

    4 material from the sessions can be placed at the

    5 disposal of the Defence counsel if they feel that this

    6 is beneficial to them in preparing their Defence

    7 cases. Therefore, we are not opposed to their demand;

    8 we support it.

    9 Whether they need this material or not, that

    10 is up to them to assess. But as the Prosecution has

    11 stated, we don't think that anything need be specified,

    12 so whether they be informed of this today is a question

    13 of their Defence strategy. When we are talking about

    14 them, it is a very serious case, so I think that all

    15 the material should be sent to them on time, today.

    16 Because of the character of the hearings, because it

    17 was a public hearing, this was not accessible to them.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel Pavkovic.

    19 However, the Prosecutor made two points: First, the

    20 request is extremely general and sweeping; and second,

    21 it is premature. So therefore, the Prosecutor

    22 suggested that we might put off any decision on this

    23 matter to see how the proceedings are going on and so

    24 on.

    25 What is your stand on this particular point?

  6. 1 You may agree that the request is very general, of

    2 course, but what about the idea of it being premature?

    3 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, are you going

    4 to make a ruling now or are we going to put off this

    5 issue for some time? I think that the Defence position

    6 on this issue will always be the same. We don't want

    7 to enter into the question of whether it is premature

    8 or not. If the Defence counsel has asked for it, they

    9 probably have reasons for asking for it today, and I

    10 understand why they take this view.

    11 So whether it is general or not, that

    12 question I think can also be answered in the following

    13 way: We support the opinions of our colleagues. Thank

    14 you.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. So we will decide

    16 on this matter in due course, and in light of the views

    17 that have been set forth by the Prosecutor and the

    18 Defence, we can now -- we are grateful to you for being

    19 so concise and to-the-point, and let us now move on to

    20 our next witness.

    21 (The witness entered court)

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. Could you

    23 please stand and read the solemn declaration?

    24 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    25 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

  7. 1 truth.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    3 seated.

    4 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Your Honours, may I proceed?

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, please.

    6 MR. MOSKOWITZ: This witness has requested

    7 name, voice, and face protection, and at this time, I

    8 hand to the usher a slip of paper which is the

    9 Prosecution's next exhibit, 200, I believe.

    10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 200.

    11 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I would ask the witness to

    12 look at that slip of paper and, without reading it,

    13 indicate whether that is his name, and if it's

    14 misspelled or if it's not his correct name, to say so.

    15 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's all right.

    16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Moskowitz, could you let us

    17 know the name in each case, please? When we've got

    18 these pseudonyms, it's important to know.

    19 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes, Your Honour. This would

    20 be Witness Q. May I proceed?

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.


    23 Examined by Mr. Moskowitz:

    24 Q. Good morning, Witness Q.

    25 A. Good morning.

  8. 1 Q. I am going to ask, as you speak, to try to do

    2 so in that microphone and to do so as clearly as you

    3 can.

    4 Just to let you know, you have been granted

    5 the protection measures that you have requested and so

    6 you should know that your name, your face, and your

    7 voice have been protected, and therefore you can feel

    8 confident in providing full and complete testimony to

    9 this Tribunal today.

    10 Do you have any questions about what I have

    11 said so far?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. You should also know that if there comes a

    14 time during your testimony that we will need to discuss

    15 matters, such as the names of certain individuals or to

    16 discuss certain places on a map that might tend to give

    17 away your identity, that at that time we will ask the

    18 Tribunal to go into what is known as closed session,

    19 and what that means, as I have already explained to you

    20 previously, what that means is that your voice will not

    21 leave this room, and therefore you can, at those times,

    22 also feel confident to be very candid with the Tribunal

    23 and to give us the benefit of your memory in the most

    24 complete way that you can. Do you understand that?

    25 A. Yes.

  9. 1 Q. Or do you have any questions?

    2 A. No, I have no questions.

    3 Q. Are you ready to begin your testimony?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Just to begin, could you tell us what year

    6 you were born in or what your age is?

    7 A. I was born in 1945. I am 53 years old.

    8 Q. Up to 1993, where did you live?

    9 A. In Ahmici.

    10 Q. How long had you lived in Ahmici?

    11 A. I was born in Ahmici.

    12 Q. Could you give us a little bit of an idea of

    13 how much education you've had?

    14 A. I am a chemical worker.

    15 Q. Where did you work back in those days in 1993

    16 and before?

    17 A. In the Vitezit work organisation.

    18 Q. How much schooling have you had? How many

    19 years of school?

    20 A. I have completed eight years of primary

    21 school and three years of a craft school.

    22 Q. Could you tell us generally what part of the

    23 village of Ahmici you lived in in the years before

    24 1993?

    25 A. I lived in the lower part in Ahmici, in front

  10. 1 of the school.

    2 Q. Can you tell us, if you can, who some of your

    3 closest Croatian neighbours were during those times?

    4 A. Yes, I can. There was Dragan Vidovic, Milka

    5 Vidovic, Mirko Vidovic, Vlatko Kupreskic. Those were

    6 my closest neighbours.

    7 Q. Now, without naming any names, could you tell

    8 us --

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry, Mr. Moskowitz.

    10 Counsel Puliselic would like to --

    11 MR. PULISELIC: If the witness could move

    12 closer to the microphone so we could hear him better?

    13 If he could move closer to the microphone, please?

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: The witness may wish to speak

    15 a little bit louder. Thank you.


    17 Q. Yes. Witness Q, if you could speak up just a

    18 little bit so that everyone here in the room can hear

    19 you?

    20 Without naming any names, tell us generally

    21 the composition of your own immediate family during the

    22 time period of 1992 and 1993?

    23 A. My family was as follows: I had four

    24 children and a wife and myself and a mother and father

    25 and three brothers and two sisters.

  11. 1 Q. Could you tell us --

    2 MR. PAVKOVIC: We apologise, Mr. President,

    3 but we can't hear anything again.

    4 (Discussion with registrar about technical problems)

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: I understand because of voice

    6 distortion it's very difficult to -- I mean, adjust the

    7 technical equipment, but probably the witness should

    8 try to speak up and speak a bit louder.

    9 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, on Channel 6,

    10 we have no transmission. We hear nothing on Channel 6.

    11 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Perhaps Channel 7 might work

    12 better. Have you tried that?

    13 MR. PAVKOVIC: Then on Channel 7, we don't

    14 hear the witness.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: I understand you should try

    16 Channel 7. Let us hope that you can hear the witness.


    18 Q. I apologise, Witness Q. There have been some

    19 technical problems with the microphone, but I think now

    20 we can proceed.

    21 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: We don't have

    22 translation on Channel 7. We don't have translation

    23 into Croatian.

    24 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I hesitate to make this

    25 suggestion because I think we've had too many, perhaps,

  12. 1 closed sessions, but much of this testimony may have to

    2 be in closed session because it deals with houses. I

    3 think maybe afterward we can see how much really can be

    4 released to the public in terms of a transcript, but if

    5 we go into closed session, then I think that would take

    6 care of the problem.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: No voice distortion.

    8 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Then we don't need voice

    9 distortion.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: I think it is a very good

    11 suggestion. So we will move into closed session so

    12 that we have no voice distortion. Probably you can

    13 hear better. And on what Channel?

    14 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Channel 6, if

    15 Your Honour ...

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Channel 6. So we move into

    17 closed session.

    18 (Closed session)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  13. 1












    13 Page 2745 to 2862 redacted - in closed session









    22 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at

    23 5.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

    24 the 24th day of September, 1998, at

    25 9.30 a.m.