1. 1 Friday, 9th October, 1998

    2 (Open session)

    3 (The accused entered court)

    4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

    5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours,

    6 case number IT-95-16-T, the Prosecutor versus Zoran

    7 Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago

    8 Josipovic, Dragan Papic and Vladimir Santic, also known

    9 as "Vlado."

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Good morning.

    11 Mr. Smith?

    12 MR. SMITH: The Prosecutor wants to call

    13 three witnesses this morning, Mr. Lee Whitworth,

    14 Dr. Van der Peijl, and then Witness 8. I ask that

    15 Mr. Whitworth be called.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Krajina? It's not

    17 our fault. All the accused should be here on time. If

    18 they are not on time, we will start, as long as some of

    19 them are here.

    20 MR. SMITH: Are all the accused here, Your

    21 Honour?

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.

    23 MR. SMITH: I call Mr. Lee Whitworth.

    24 (The witness entered court)

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. Will you

  2. 1 please make the solemn declaration?

    2 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    3 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

    4 truth.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    6 seated.

    7 Mr. Smith?


    9 Examined by Mr. Smith:

    10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Whitworth. Can you hear

    11 me?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. You are currently a school teacher in

    14 England; is that correct?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Prior to that, you used to be in the British

    17 army?

    18 A. That's correct.

    19 Q. You served in Bosnia in 1993?

    20 A. I did, indeed, yes.

    21 Q. Which regiment did you serve with?

    22 A. I served with the 1st Battalion, the Prince

    23 of Wales' Own Regiment of Yorkshire.

    24 Q. How long had you been in the British army

    25 prior to that?

  3. 1 A. Approximately three years, sir.

    2 Q. Were you on any other operational tours in

    3 that time?

    4 A. Prior to deploying to Bosnia, I worked in

    5 Belfast for approximately seven months and was involved

    6 in the OP Granby building and training phases as well.

    7 Q. Can you explain what that is, please?

    8 A. That is the training and deployment for the

    9 Gulf, sir.

    10 Q. What period were you in Bosnia in 1993?

    11 A. From approximately the middle of May until, I

    12 think it was, the beginning of November, middle of

    13 November.

    14 Q. What was your rank?

    15 A. I was a captain.

    16 Q. Had you been to officer training school in

    17 Sandhurst, in England, when you first joined the

    18 British army?

    19 A. Yes, sir. That's correct.

    20 Q. Can you tell the Court your main job when you

    21 were in Bosnia and where you were based?

    22 A. Yes, sir. Initially, I was deployed as the

    23 regimental signals officer which was responsible for

    24 setting up and running the headquarters element. Very

    25 quickly after our arrival, Colonel Alastair started to

  4. 1 understand the need for good liaison on the ground, and

    2 so he tested myself and a few of the other officers as

    3 liaison officers in order to build a rapport with the

    4 locals in the Lasva Valley area. I was retasked from

    5 regimental signals officer as a liaison officer in the

    6 Lasva Valley.

    7 Q. You commenced your tour in May, and you took

    8 over from the Cheshire Regiment that had just completed

    9 theirs?

    10 A. That's correct.

    11 Q. What was the specific nature of your job in

    12 relation of liaison? What types of people were you

    13 aiming at liaising with and the purpose for that?

    14 A. We were really there to facilitate the UNHCR,

    15 the UN Mission in the Lasva Valley, and we really

    16 perceived that as taking form of establishing a rapport

    17 and relationship with all senior people on the ground

    18 in the Lasva Valley area; political, military, civilian

    19 leaders. Establishing a rapport and relationship with

    20 them would then allow us to support and facilitate the

    21 movement of UNHCR vehicles in and out of the area.

    22 Q. What was the area that you covered, what

    23 municipalities?

    24 A. There were four liaison officers. My area of

    25 responsibility was from Travnik through the Vitez Lasva

  5. 1 Valley as far as the Busovaca area.

    2 Q. You met and liaised with military leaders

    3 from the Bosnian army and the HVO; is that correct?

    4 A. Yes, that's correct, sir, civilian,

    5 political, and military leaders on both sides.

    6 Q. Whilst you were doing this during this time,

    7 did you come to meet and know Vladimir Santic?

    8 A. Yes. I think I met him on two occasions.

    9 Q. What was the first date that you met Vladimir

    10 Santic?

    11 A. It was quite early on in my tour, around the

    12 end of May, beginning of June, and I was trying to

    13 establish key personalities in the Lasva Valley area.

    14 On this particular occasion, I had gone looking for

    15 senior Military Police representatives in the Vitez

    16 area. I first met Mr. Santic under the guise of being

    17 a senior military policeman in Vitez.

    18 Q. Of which military group?

    19 A. He was lodged at 4th Battalion Military

    20 Police headquarters in the Hotel Vitez when I met him.

    21 Q. That was with the HVO?

    22 A. That's the HVO, yes, sir.

    23 Q. What gave you reason to go and meet him?

    24 What happened earlier that day that led you to go to

    25 the Hotel Vitez?

  6. 1 A. As I said, I think earlier, during the

    2 beginning of my tour, I was spending a lot of time

    3 driving around the area, introducing myself to people,

    4 just trying to become familiar with the circumstances

    5 and the situation that people were in and trying to

    6 identify who the key personalities were in the area.

    7 I'd happened along the road heading towards

    8 Zenica, and I came across a building that we came to

    9 know as the Swiss Cottage or the Bungalow. On the

    10 front porch of that building, there was a group of

    11 about eight to ten soldiers, quite distinctly dressed.

    12 So I took the opportunity to pull up and try to engage

    13 them in conversation. They were not very welcoming at

    14 first. They obviously weren't interested in speaking

    15 to me at the time.

    16 After about a 20-minute, 30-minute

    17 conversation, I said to them that it would be useful

    18 for me in my role as a liaison officer, in order to

    19 help the humanitarian mission, if I was to introduce

    20 myself to their commander.

    21 There was a gentleman who kept coming out the

    22 back of the Bungalow who was obviously more senior than

    23 the young gentlemen I was talking to in the front, and

    24 he was not very pleased about the fact that they were

    25 having a general conversation with me.

  7. 1 Nevertheless, they said, "You need to speak

    2 to our boss. He's a chap called Pasko. You'll find

    3 him down in Vitez." It was with that that I set off to

    4 Vitez looking for the leader of these group of

    5 gentlemen who had described themselves as an elite

    6 Military Police unit that had been active and involved

    7 in all the military successes in the Lasva Valley area.

    8 Q. Can you describe, more specifically, any type

    9 of weaponry that was at the Bungalow and the types of

    10 uniforms they were wearing?

    11 A. Yes. They were very distinctly dressed.

    12 They were all dressed in black. They were young,

    13 between the age, I would say, of 25, 26, fit,

    14 athletic-looking chaps, predominantly dressed in black,

    15 as opposed to the normals of Croatian-type, U.S.

    16 uniforms that were common. They were all wearing small

    17 arms, usually one or two large knives. There were

    18 plenty of weapons propped up in the doorway and on the

    19 inside of the building, wearing bandannas.

    20 They were proud of this elite Military Police

    21 status that they had. They were all very confidant at

    22 the time. They were proud of the fact that they had

    23 been involved in the military successes that they

    24 reiterated to me at the time that had taken place in

    25 the Lasva Valley area.

  8. 1 Q. Once that was explained to you, that they

    2 were proud of the fact that they were involved in the

    3 military successes in the Lasva Valley area, did you

    4 follow up on that comment?

    5 A. I attempted to do so, yes. It's obviously a

    6 difficult situation. It was quite clear to me that one

    7 of the gentleman there, who was obviously the senior

    8 rank present, wasn't happy about them disclosing any

    9 information to me. It was something that I approached

    10 very delicately, and I said to them, "You mean like

    11 operations like Ahmici?" They didn't deny or

    12 acknowledge that, but they said -- the phrase that they

    13 used was, "We said all the military successes." That

    14 intimated to me that that was an indirect

    15 acknowledgement of the fact that they had been involved

    16 in Ahmici.

    17 Q. Why did you mention Ahmici? What was your

    18 knowledge, just briefly, of what had occurred there?

    19 A. It was, I think, six weeks prior to that

    20 particular incident. It was an event that had,

    21 obviously, stuck in everybody's minds of the Cheshires

    22 and the Prince of Wales' Own. It was something we were

    23 all aware of in the background; that really was quite a

    24 key operation in the Lasva Valley. It was the most

    25 obvious one, the most striking one, to ask them about

  9. 1 at the time.

    2 Q. About how far was this Bungalow from Ahmici?

    3 A. Approximately 500, 600 metres. There's a

    4 wood that separates the area of Ahmici from the

    5 Bungalow area, so it was quite close.

    6 Q. Towards Vitez or away from Vitez?

    7 A. It was away from Vitez, if I remember

    8 correctly.

    9 Q. You said that these young men were wearing

    10 black uniforms. Did you notice whether they had any

    11 patches on?

    12 A. I didn't notice any insignia -- oh, I did,

    13 actually, report that some of them had what looked like

    14 basic insignia on their arms, and they referred to

    15 themselves as the Jokers. "The Jokeri" was the name

    16 that they gave to me at the time.

    17 Whilst I was there, I had a Muslim

    18 interpreter, and she was very fearful. She said,

    19 "These gentlemen were very dangerous." I think I

    20 mentioned earlier that when I initially tried to make

    21 conversation with them, they were quite aggressive and

    22 focused in on my Muslim interpreter at the time. It

    23 was only after I had gone to considerable lengths to

    24 put them at ease that they actually managed to converse

    25 with me. But she impressed upon me that she was

  10. 1 fearful of them and that she'd heard of this name

    2 before and that they were involved in several military

    3 operations in the Lasva Valley area.

    4 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I would ask that

    5 Exhibit 119 be produced to the witness.

    6 Q. Can you tell the Court whether you can

    7 identify that building in the photograph?

    8 A. I can, indeed, yes, and the gentlemen out

    9 front. That was the building we referred to as the

    10 Swiss Cottage or the Swiss Bungalow. The balcony on

    11 the front there is where I had the conversation with

    12 the chaps. There's a large square door there.

    13 Q. Could you see inside the square door when you

    14 had the conversation with these men?

    15 A. It was dark inside, but it just had wooden

    16 furniture and benches lining the sides and weapons

    17 propped up. It was quite a spacious building. I don't

    18 think there was anything else on the ground floor.

    19 Q. This conversation went for about 20 minutes;

    20 is that correct?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Did you notice whether there was any damage

    23 to the building when you arrived?

    24 A. No. That didn't appear to be the case. I

    25 saw no signs of small arms or any other damage there on

  11. 1 the building.

    2 Q. After you left this group and went to Hotel

    3 Vitez, what was your impression of the group? What

    4 type of group, in military terms, would you classify

    5 them as?

    6 A. They seemed very well-motivated. They were

    7 very well-equipped. They were very confidant in the

    8 fact that -- they were very confidant in their own

    9 ability. I'd come away with an impression that this

    10 was a group of chaps who were, actually, involved in

    11 offensive action in the Lasva Valley area, that they

    12 were directly responsible, or I was assuming they were

    13 directly responsible for the offensive action in that

    14 area.

    15 Q. You were told that their commander was Pasko,

    16 and you went to Vitez. What was your aim at that

    17 stage?

    18 A. Simply to introduce myself to their

    19 commander. They had told me they were an elite

    20 Military Police unit, and I'd said to them that it

    21 would be useful, therefore, if I was to introduce

    22 myself to their commander. They had reluctantly given

    23 me this name, and I set off into the Vitez area looking

    24 for a senior military policeman, this chap called

    25 Pasko.

  12. 1 I went to the Hotel Vitez, and I spoke to a

    2 couple of members of the HVO there. I told them I had

    3 this conversation with the Jokeri. It was still during

    4 the early days of my role as a liaison officer, so I

    5 sort of talked them around to the idea that it was in

    6 the interests of everybody in the Lasva Valley area

    7 that I meet all the key personnel. I said, "Could I

    8 speak to the senior Military Police commander?"

    9 I sat down. After awhile, a gentleman came

    10 out who introduced himself to me as Vlado. He was

    11 introduced to me as the senior Military Police

    12 commander in the area, but no specific title was given

    13 to me at that time. He just came out in response to my

    14 request for a senior military policeman.

    15 Q. Stopping there. Why did you go to Hotel

    16 Vitez? What did you believe Hotel Vitez to be?

    17 A. Well, I had already been introduced to one or

    18 two characters in the Hotel Vitez. I was aware that

    19 that's where the HVO military command was situated, and

    20 I was looking for a Military Police commander. It

    21 seemed common sense to go to the hotel.

    22 There is, actually, a big sign above the door

    23 that says "4th Battalion Military Police Headquarters,"

    24 so it was just common sense, really.

    25 Q. Do you remember the first person who you

  13. 1 first asked at Hotel Vitez in relation to your request

    2 to see the commander of the Jokers?

    3 A. I think it was a chap called Darko Gelic, who

    4 was later tasked as Colonel Blaskic's personal liaison

    5 officer. I got to know Darko throughout the following

    6 months quite well, in fact.

    7 Q. When you met this man that came out in

    8 response to your request, can you give a description of

    9 him?

    10 A. Yes. Stockily built, going very thin on the

    11 top, white-greyish hair, about 5'10".

    12 Q. Do you remember what he was wearing?

    13 A. If I remember correctly, he was wearing a

    14 Military Police -- he had combat trousers, a green

    15 shirt on. My memory is a little bit hazy of such

    16 details. I have no reason to think that he wasn't the

    17 military policeman that I'd asked for at the time.

    18 Q. Did he introduce himself?

    19 A. In a very cursory manner. He was very

    20 disinterested in me. I did try and win him over. I

    21 sort of chatted to him. I did most of the talking. He

    22 was very incommunicative, didn't really see me as

    23 anybody of any importance and didn't really see the

    24 need for him to establish a rapport with me.

    25 For the 10 minutes, 15 minutes that I was

  14. 1 talking to him, I did most of the talking and I was

    2 trying to explain the situation and the merits of the

    3 UN and my role in that and how I might be able to

    4 assist him, as a policeman, in observing and

    5 facilitating the UN mission in the area. He sat and

    6 listened, was pretty unforthcoming.

    7 Q. Did you mention to him why you were there,

    8 the fact that you had been to the Bungalow earlier?

    9 A. I did, indeed. I said that I'd spoke to a

    10 Military Police group. That was always a way of

    11 brokering a conversation with people, in that people

    12 were always very distrustful of why you wanted to

    13 know. So it was always useful to have a name to be

    14 able to say, "I have already spoken to so and so."

    15 Yes, I did mention that at the time.

    16 Q. Did you mention the name "The Jokers" at the

    17 time?

    18 A. If I remember correctly, I did so, yes.

    19 Q. What did he say in response to that?

    20 A. I don't remember him saying anything, if I

    21 was to be honest.

    22 Q. He was fairly reluctant to speak to you for

    23 that ten minutes?

    24 A. Yes, he was. I would say he was very

    25 unforthcoming, didn't really want to make conversation

  15. 1 with me.

    2 Q. After you left that meeting, were you

    3 subsequently introduced to a person called Pasko?

    4 A. Yes. I think it was a month, two months

    5 later, I was formally introduced to a man called Pasko

    6 Ljubicic by Darko Gelic, the liaison officer, who

    7 introduced him as head of the 4th Military Police

    8 Battalion.

    9 Q. From your experience and observations in the

    10 Lasva Valley over that six months, where did Santic sit

    11 in comparison to Pasko Ljubicic? Where did Vladimir

    12 Santic sit?

    13 A. At the time when I initially met Mr. Santic,

    14 it seemed obvious to me that he was subordinate to

    15 Pasko, this chief of the Military Police Battalion. We

    16 weren't exactly sure in what role he was subordinate,

    17 whether he was within the 4th Military Battalion or

    18 maybe commanding one of the sub-units within the 4th

    19 Military Battalion.

    20 I was aware, speaking to people at the time,

    21 that Mr. Santic was a local man, local to Vitez, but at

    22 that particular time, we didn't really know where he

    23 was, other than being, say, somewhere underneath the

    24 command structure -- within the command structure of

    25 Pasko Ljubicic.

  16. 1 Q. Can you explain the structure of the Military

    2 Police Battalion, the units that it was divided up

    3 into, and the general area that you believed it to

    4 cover, the 4th Military Police Battalion?

    5 A. This is information that became apparent to

    6 us throughout the tour. It wasn't initially apparent

    7 on my first meeting with Mr. Santic, but it became

    8 obvious that the Military Police sub-units, as we

    9 referred to them, were based on municipalities, and

    10 that the 4th Military Police battalion actually covered

    11 a large area. The area it covered, I think,

    12 corresponded with the op zone, the HVO Operational

    13 Zone, included places like Vares, Zepce, Busovaca,

    14 Travnik, Novi Travnik, Vitez.

    15 The information and conversations that I had

    16 throughout suggested that the 4th Military Battalion

    17 was also spread out over a similar area. In each of

    18 those municipalities, there would be a sub-unit, a

    19 company group, we would call them, in each of those.

    20 So there would be a company group within Vitez, a

    21 company group of the 4th Battalion within Vares, within

    22 Zepce, within Travnik.

    23 Q. Pasko Ljubicic was introduced to you as the

    24 commander of that whole area?

    25 A. He was, indeed, sir, yes. At the time when I

  17. 1 met the Jokeri, he was just introduced to me by the

    2 Jokeri as their commander. That was all they said. Of

    3 course, that's an assumption that the Pasko that they

    4 were referring to, because they didn't give me a second

    5 name, was the Pasko Ljubicic who was commander of the

    6 4th Battalion.

    7 Q. In the Military Police company that was

    8 located in the Vitez municipality, from your

    9 observations and your dealings with the HVO in '92,

    10 '93, where would you put Vladimir Santic?

    11 A. Well, it's commonplace for a headquarters

    12 unit, for a battalion headquarters, to be co-located

    13 with one of the company groups for its own protection

    14 and the facilities that are, therefore, provided. I

    15 was aware that Mr. Santic was within the HVO structure

    16 in the hotel.

    17 At the time when I actually met him, it

    18 wasn't clear whether he was a company commander of the

    19 local Vitez Military Police situated in the hotel or

    20 whether he was actually part of Pasko Ljubicic's

    21 battalion headquarters staff and subordinate to him in

    22 that way, located in the Hotel Vitez. But knowing that

    23 he was a local Vitez man, I wouldn't like to say,

    24 really.

    25 Q. You mentioned each municipality had a

  18. 1 company-sized unit of the Military Police based there.

    2 About what size would that be in relation to the Vitez

    3 Military Police?

    4 A. A company group normally would be,

    5 approximately, 120, 140 soldiers in a conventional army

    6 grouping, but, obviously, circumstances are very

    7 different. From what I saw, driving up and down 12, 14

    8 hours a day in the Lasva Valley, I would say the

    9 numbers of a Military Police company compared

    10 favourably with that. So you were looking at 100-plus

    11 troops within a Military Police company.

    12 There were similar sized groups within each

    13 area; Busovaca, Travnik, Novi Travnik. It also

    14 appeared, but it's difficult to put an exact figure on

    15 it because, of course, all the troops are on duty, and

    16 very rarely would you see groups of more than two or

    17 three together at a time, but, obviously, driving up

    18 and down the valley every day, you're sampling or

    19 you're seeing small groups here and there, and they

    20 are, obviously, representative of those who are on duty

    21 for that particular time of day.

    22 There were instances when I saw 30-plus

    23 together when senior dignitaries were visiting, like

    24 Cedric Thornbird, at the Nova Bila Hospital. It was

    25 obvious that they were a quite sizeable number, and it

  19. 1 was reasonably comparable to that 100-plus that you

    2 would see in a normal company group.

    3 Q. What size was the Jokers, the special elite

    4 Military Police unit that you were told about?

    5 A. From the initial conversation I'd had with

    6 them, they said they were of a number of approximately

    7 30-plus, that there were quite a number of them. That

    8 would be a platoon, small sub-unit size, a sub-unit of a

    9 company. In a company group, you would find four of

    10 those grouped under a company commander. They were,

    11 obviously, a small unit within the Military Police

    12 structure.

    13 Q. When you spoke to the group of men that

    14 claimed that they were the Jokers, they boasted about

    15 the fact that they were involved in all the successful

    16 military operations in the Lasva Valley. Can you tell

    17 the Court, based on your observations in Bosnia for

    18 that six months, whether or not a person in Pasko

    19 Ljubicic's position, and also Vladimir Santic's

    20 position, would have necessarily needed to be involved

    21 in the planning and organising of those operations?

    22 A. Can you make specific reference to -- could

    23 you ask the question again, please?

    24 Q. You said that the Jokers were an active

    25 military unit, you thought, and they claimed that

  20. 1 they -- in fact, they were involved in all the

    2 successful military operations in the Lasva Valley.

    3 Can you tell the Court, based on your opinion

    4 down there, whether or not it would be necessary for a

    5 person at the level of Vladimir Santic or Pasko

    6 Ljubicic to be involved in the planning and organising

    7 of any of the significant military operations?

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Pavkovic?

    9 MR. PAVKOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

    10 Mr. President, I have an objection to make with regard

    11 to this examination. From the direct answer given by

    12 this witness, he did not differentiate between the

    13 relationship of Vlado Santic and Pasko Ljubicic. He

    14 did not bring Vlado Santic into any relationship with

    15 the latter, and he said that he belonged to the local

    16 structures within the HVO, the command of which was

    17 located at the Hotel Vitez.

    18 Therefore, a question of this nature suggests

    19 that between these two individuals there was a

    20 necessary link which, in that case, makes up a chain.

    21 I think that by saying so, the witness is being

    22 suggested something which he did not previously state

    23 when speaking about the relationship between the two

    24 individuals mentioned.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Thank you. I wonder

  21. 1 whether, Mr. Smith, you could rephrase your question.

    2 I see a lot of merit in the objection of Counsel

    3 Pavkovic.

    4 MR. SMITH: Perhaps if I can try and ask the

    5 witness if he could establish that relation between

    6 Pasko Ljubicic and Vladimir Santic.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Try it and refrain from

    8 asking hypothetical questions. Thank you.

    9 MR. SMITH:

    10 Q. You said that Darko Gelic was the liaison

    11 officer for Mr. Blaskic; is that correct?

    12 A. That's correct, sir, yes.

    13 Q. And Mr. Blaskic was the commander of the

    14 third operative zone of the HVO in Central Bosnia; is

    15 that correct?

    16 A. That's correct, sir, yes.

    17 Q. Had you dealt with Darko Gelic on a fairly

    18 frequent basis as a liaison officer?

    19 A. Three, four times a day on most days.

    20 Q. Did he inform you of the relationship between

    21 Pasko Ljubicic and Vladimir Santic?

    22 A. His words were, that it was from him that he

    23 said that Mr. Santic was the senior Military Police

    24 commander in the Vitez area, and no specifics were

    25 given other than Pasko Ljubicic was his commander as in

  22. 1 terms of the battalion commander.

    2 So I think, as I said earlier, its's very

    3 difficult to push for specifics, but in any normal

    4 change of command in the military, there will be direct

    5 communication. I think to answer the question you said

    6 earlier about Jokeri involvement and any connection

    7 between the two, it would be very difficult not to see

    8 a connection in terms of any military operations that

    9 took place in the Lasva Valley, would have been

    10 strategically directed and would have had to have local

    11 command involved in their occurrence in the Lasva

    12 Valley area.

    13 So I think -- I'm going around a long way of

    14 saying I saw no direct, specific connection between the

    15 two, other than to say that it was -- I was told at the

    16 time that one was subordinate to the other, but how --

    17 the specifics of that subordination was not made clear

    18 to me at the time.

    19 Q. Now I would like a video to be played,

    20 Prosecution Exhibit 253. On this video, can you tell

    21 the Court whether you can recognise the location and

    22 any figures that appear within it?

    23 A. Would you like me to ask for video to be

    24 stopped?

    25 Q. If you recognise anything in the video, the

  23. 1 location or the personalities within it, if you could

    2 ask for the video to be stopped. I'll just ask that

    3 the usher could organise that the video appears on the

    4 witness's screen. Thank you.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Pavkovic.

    6 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, perhaps my

    7 intervention has come too early, but would it be a good

    8 idea for the Prosecutor to tell us where the tape is

    9 from and how he came by it before we see the actual

    10 tape?

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. I mean, this was

    12 already explained by the Prosecutor on a previous

    13 occasion. This is already an exhibit, a Prosecution

    14 Exhibit. Do you remember? You will see. If you wait

    15 a few seconds, you will see.

    16 MR. PAVKOVIC: Yes. Thank you. I apologise

    17 then.

    18 (Videotape played)

    19 THE WITNESS: Stop it there.

    20 MR. SMITH:

    21 Q. Who is that person in the frame?

    22 A. That was a man who was formally introduced to

    23 me by Darko Gelic as Pasko Ljubicic, commander of the

    24 4th Battalion Military Police.

    25 MR. SMITH: Could we continue with the tape,

  24. 1 please?

    2 (Videotape played)

    3 THE WITNESS: Could you stop it there,

    4 please?


    6 Q. Do you recognise anyone in that frame?

    7 A. Bearing in mind the quality of the picture,

    8 that -- I'm not as sure as I can be. That would be

    9 Vladimir Santic, with his hand on his head.

    10 Q. That was the person who was introduced to you

    11 at the Hotel Vitez?

    12 A. He was indeed, yes.

    13 MR. SMITH: If you could continue the tape,

    14 please, and I'll ask you a few questions after that.

    15 (Videotape played)

    16 MR. SMITH: If you can stop the tape now,

    17 thank you.

    18 Q. Could you recognise the location of where

    19 that footage was taken?

    20 A. Very difficult. It could possibly have been

    21 in the cottage by the nature of the vertical slat

    22 walls, but the quality is obviously very poor. I

    23 wouldn't swear on oath to that at all, but it could

    24 possibly have been inside the cottage.

    25 Q. Is that because of the nature of the frame

  25. 1 within the video clip?

    2 A. Yeah. It was almost vertically sided. There

    3 were benches pushed up against the side. Large chunky

    4 wooden furniture inside, that type of thing.

    5 Q. If you could take a look around the courtroom

    6 and tell the Court whether or not you could recognise

    7 Vladimir Santic?

    8 A. I can indeed, sir, yes.

    9 Q. Could you point him out to the Court?

    10 A. He's sat over there smiling at me.

    11 Q. I ask the Court to accept that --

    12 A. He's wearing a subtle lilac shirt with a

    13 striped tie and a dark blue blazer.

    14 MR. SMITH: For the record, I ask the Court

    15 that the witness had identified the accused Vladimir

    16 Santic.

    17 I have no further questions, Your Honour.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Smith.

    19 Mr. Pavkovic?

    20 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I have no

    21 questions.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. No questions from

    23 any legal Defence counsel? All right. So there will

    24 be no re-examination?

    25 MR. SMITH: That's correct.

  26. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So I think

    2 there's no objection to the witness being released.

    3 Thank you so much for coming here to give

    4 evidence in court. You may now be released.

    5 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, sir.

    6 (The witness withdrew)

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: I assume we are now moving on

    8 to the Dutch -- it will be even shorter.

    9 MR. TERRIER: Exactly, Mr. President.

    10 (The witness entered court)

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. I would like

    12 to ask you to read the solemn declaration.

    13 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    14 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

    15 truth.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    17 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Your Honour.


    19 Examined by Mr. Terrier:

    20 Q. Good morning, witness. Could you tell the

    21 court what your name is and what your occupation is?

    22 A. My name is Gerhard van der Piejl. I'm a

    23 forensic scientist at the forensic science laboratory

    24 of the Ministry of the Netherlands -- Ministry of

    25 Justice of the Netherlands.

  27. 1 Q. Thank you. In June 1998, you carried out a

    2 number of tests on items and samples that had been

    3 collected in a Bosnian village, and they had been

    4 transmitted to you by Mr. Prudon; is that right?

    5 A. That's correct.

    6 Q. You signed an analysis report dated 29th of

    7 July, 1998. This report has been tendered as Exhibit

    8 169, and I shall ask the witness that the Dutch version

    9 and its translation in English be submitted to the

    10 court.

    11 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 278,

    12 278A for the English version.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    14 MR. TERRIER: Mr. Van der Peijl, while I'm

    15 showing this to you, I would like to ask you whether

    16 the English translation of your conclusions, to be more

    17 specific, seems to be an accurate one?

    18 A. In the conclusion it says, in the English

    19 version, that there were no combustion enhancing

    20 substances in fire samples et cetera. Actually, in the

    21 Dutch version it says no accelerants were detected in

    22 the samples, et cetera. That's in the conclusion.

    23 Q. So you concluded that you did not find any

    24 accelerants in the test?

    25 A. That's the main difference. There are some

  28. 1 other smaller ones, but I don't think they are

    2 relevant.

    3 Q. Well, we won't go into them then. I have

    4 only one question, but it is a major one for you. It

    5 is as follows: The fact that you did not detect any

    6 inflammable substance during the test, does that mean

    7 that no inflammable substance had been used in order to

    8 fire, or to burn the place where the samples were

    9 found, were collected?

    10 You may not know this, and there was no

    11 reason for telling you that then, but the fire took

    12 place on the 16th of April, 1993. The samples were

    13 collected in July, 1998. The site on which the samples

    14 were collected was open -- was an open space and was

    15 weather-beaten all these years.

    16 A. From my -- especially from my own experience

    17 but also from literature, I don't know any studies

    18 about what will happen to accelerants if they are in

    19 open weather places, perhaps in the ground for such a

    20 long time.

    21 There have been some studies, for example, on

    22 microbacterial degradation of gasoline, especially in

    23 Australia, and they have demonstrated that in some

    24 cases there could be major degradation, but that's only

    25 shorter-term studies. So I cannot say what could

  29. 1 happen with an accelerant in so long a time.

    2 The thing is, though, that although I don't

    3 have any studies -- or I should say I don't know, but I

    4 think I -- still from my experience and my chemical

    5 knowledge, I can make a conclusion.

    6 There are three possibilities that I can

    7 imagine where we would not find any traces of

    8 accelerants today, even though they might have been

    9 used five years ago for arson, and that would be for

    10 the first reason -- the first reason will be that the

    11 samples that have been taken were not actually samples

    12 where accelerant has been present at the start. Like

    13 the name says, an accelerant is used to accelerate the

    14 fire. But when the fire has started, of course it can

    15 go burn further on if you have wood and some our

    16 combustible material. You may have even charred or

    17 burned material where no accelerant is present. So

    18 that depends whether people have been able to take the

    19 accelerants at the place where the fire really

    20 started.

    21 The second possibility is that -- that's all

    22 assuming an accelerant was used in the first place, of

    23 course.

    24 The second possibility is that an accelerant

    25 has been used which consists of very volatile

  30. 1 components. For example, in the Netherlands we would

    2 think then about mixture of alcohol. In Dutch we call

    3 it bronspiritus. It's very common in the household.

    4 You could have a mixture of paint thinner, some paint

    5 thinners. They are very volatile. I would not expect,

    6 after so long a time, that we would find any trace of

    7 them.

    8 Normally, even after a shorter time, we find

    9 traces of more -- of liquids which have less volatile

    10 components in them. For example, for gasoline, over 99

    11 per cent of gasoline would be evaporated after a few

    12 days, but 1 per cent remaining may still lead us to

    13 conclude that there has been gasoline in the sample.

    14 Or with diesel fuel, that's another possibility.

    15 So when I was originally asked the question

    16 to look for accelerants in these samples, I said

    17 already I can only find accelerants if it has been some

    18 of this group. That means that if I don't find any

    19 accelerants, one of the possibilities, of course, then,

    20 that it's from outside of this group.

    21 The third possibility, I already touched on

    22 it, is there has been such heavy microbacterial

    23 degradation over this long period of time, that that is

    24 the reason we don't find anything.

    25 So to conclude again, there are three main

  31. 1 possibilities. One is that the samples were taken not

    2 at the place where the accelerant was originally used.

    3 The second is that an accelerant has been used which

    4 consisted of very volatile components and no less

    5 volatile components have remained. The third

    6 possibility is that there has been microbacterial

    7 deterioration.

    8 So in these three cases and perhaps more

    9 but -- that's, I think what I want to say.

    10 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, I don't want the

    11 interpreter service to be angry at me, but I'm afraid

    12 we cannot understand the interpretation. And if

    13 possible, we would like another interpreter to replace

    14 the present one who is interpreting.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: This is the interpretation

    16 from English into Croatian.

    17 MR. RADOVIC: Yes, into Croatian.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: I hope somebody in the booth

    19 can replace the present interpreter. Counsel Radovic,

    20 do you want now -- do you want Mr. Terrier to ask again

    21 the last question?

    22 MR. RADOVIC: We are investing great efforts

    23 to understand and follow what has been said. What we

    24 did not understand, we shall clarify later on in the

    25 cross-examination.

  32. 1 MR. TERRIER: At any rate, I want to thank

    2 the witness for what he has said. I have no further

    3 questions for him.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Cross-examination of the

    5 witness.

    6 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I have one

    7 question, and Mr. Ranko Radovic and Ms. Jadranka

    8 Slokovic-Glumac have questions.

    9 Cross-examined by Mr. Pavkovic:

    10 Q. Sir, I have one question for you and it is

    11 the following: In the samples that you were given, and

    12 which you, therefore, analysed, did you find the

    13 presence of any accelerators of any kind or combustion

    14 enhancing substances?

    15 A. No, I did not find any presence of what we

    16 call an accelerant.

    17 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel Pavkovic.

    19 Counsel Radovic?

    20 Cross-examined by Mr. Radovic:

    21 Q. I shall continue the topic that my learned

    22 colleague Mr. Pavkovic started.

    23 The Prosecutor asked you, sir, how is it

    24 possible that no combustion enhancing substances were

    25 detected? As a forensic scientist, is it usual for you

  33. 1 to explain why these substances were not found, or is

    2 it the job of a forensic scientist just to determine

    3 whether these substances exist or not? What is the

    4 basic task of a forensic scientist of your kind?

    5 A. Okay. The last word in the English

    6 translation is "of your kind," and that will give what

    7 is my expertise. In the Netherlands we have different

    8 expertise for the people who do chemical

    9 investigations, that's people like me, and people who

    10 do technical investigations and the investigations at

    11 the scene of a possible crime.

    12 In other countries, this job can be combined

    13 in one person, but in the Netherlands we have decided

    14 to split it up. Does that answer your question?

    15 Q. No. In my country, the system is similar.

    16 My question was: Is it the basic task of a forensic

    17 scientist to determine whether the combustion enhancing

    18 substances exist, or accelerants, or whether it is his

    19 task to explain why he did not find elements of this

    20 kind in the samples received?

    21 A. Okay. Normally I would just make out report

    22 as I have done it over here, and in the Dutch court our

    23 Judges, and advocates and Prosecutors, they are aware

    24 of what that means, that no -- if no accelerant has

    25 been found, it definitely does not mean that no

  34. 1 accelerant has been used.

    2 In this case, for this International Court, I

    3 have been asked by the Prosecutor to come over here and

    4 to expand on my report, to clarify that even though we

    5 did not find -- we did not detect any accelerant, any

    6 trace of accelerant, it definitely does not mean that

    7 no accelerant has been used at the fire in the past.

    8 Q. One of the reasons for which this kind of

    9 conclusion is possible, and your finding is possible as

    10 it stands, is that the individual taking the samples

    11 might not have taken the samples from the right place.

    12 Is my understanding correct?

    13 A. That is correct. It could mean, for example,

    14 that he could not take the samples from the right

    15 place, because if the right place would have been

    16 burned out completely, if there would have been a major

    17 fire, that also can happen in Dutch, we might not even

    18 find anything.

    19 Q. Now, the individual taking the samples,

    20 according to the proceedings so far, is an individual

    21 who is the supreme investigator on the part of the

    22 Dutch police who went on the spot, and he was informed

    23 of the witness testimony when the witness said --

    24 stated the spot where the burning took place.

    25 In a situation of this kind, is there very

  35. 1 little probability that the sample sent to you for

    2 expertise was not taken from the proper place?

    3 A. This -- this person, this Mr. Prudon, is of a

    4 good reputation to me from the past. As far as I know,

    5 he has also been certified for the technical police to

    6 do these arson investigations, and I would expect that

    7 he would be able to get the most out of it. But if no

    8 sample is left over from -- from an accelerant because

    9 everything has been burned out, then, of course, he

    10 could not have taken the sample which contains the

    11 accelerant.

    12 Another possibility is -- I have not seen

    13 photographs of the situation -- I'll wait for a

    14 moment.

    15 I have not seen photographs of the situation

    16 at the point, but I have understood that there has

    17 been -- I think you call it a cave-in of the building.

    18 There's a lot of rubble. In that situation that may

    19 present some problems.

    20 Normally what an investigator would look for

    21 in the Dutch case where he normally comes in after only

    22 a few days, he would look for -- for example, for

    23 cardboard, or a desk office or for something else which

    24 has not been burnt out completely. If that is in the

    25 neighbourhood of the fire, he would look underneath,

  36. 1 for example, a table leg or something like that,

    2 because there you have the best chance to find any

    3 residues of an accelerant because it has been sort of

    4 shielded from the heat of the fire. That's what you

    5 would do in a normal situation.

    6 As far as I understand, but you have here the

    7 witness, I think, there was a problem in this situation

    8 to do something like that.

    9 Q. The other reason that you quoted, which

    10 prevented results of your expertise being exact, is

    11 that there was a -- that a combination was used of

    12 different chemical matter. Did I understand you

    13 correctly in saying that?

    14 A. Okay. There are many possible accelerants.

    15 Accelerants, they are fluids which -- they are very

    16 easy to make -- how do you call it -- to make into a

    17 fire. In the Dutch situation, in cases where we find

    18 an accelerant, for example, in about half of the cases,

    19 we find something like petrol being used. But in the

    20 Netherlands' situation and also abroad, there are many

    21 accelerants which can be used, and one of the

    22 possibilities I gave to you is a mixture of volatile

    23 alcohols. In the Netherlands that's definitely being

    24 used.

    25 I don't know the market situation in the

  37. 1 former Yugoslavia, if it is possible to get something

    2 like that. That's one possibility, and I'm quite sure

    3 we wouldn't find any traces of that because they would

    4 be very volatile, and also, they would be oxidised over

    5 the years, so I would not expect to find anything.

    6 Another possibility is some paint thinners.

    7 They also consist only of very volatile components, and

    8 I would not expect to find anything.

    9 The ones I would expect -- no, no, I should

    10 say differently.

    11 The ones which in principle might leave some

    12 residue are things like diesel fuel. I would have

    13 hoped that even if diesel fuel was used, even after all

    14 these years and even though nobody ever did a

    15 scientific investigation for an arson case, it might

    16 have been possible that we would have found traces of

    17 some of the components from this diesel fuel. But

    18 there are many other possibilities of accelerants where

    19 I would not have expected to find a trace after such a

    20 long period of time.

    21 Q. You have given us a very good explanation now

    22 of the different theoretical possibilities. However, I

    23 don't know whether you were doing your expertise, that

    24 you were drawing our attention to the fact that an

    25 individual claimed to be an eyewitness and said that

  38. 1 petrol was used. Now, what is the situation like with

    2 petrol?

    3 A. Sorry, can you say it again? As an

    4 eyewitness who says petrol has been used?

    5 Q. Yes, that petrol was used. Now, I'm

    6 interested in knowing your opinion with regard to

    7 traces of petrol, if petrol was what was used as an

    8 accelerator at the initial spot for planting the fire?

    9 A. Yeah. First of all, I definitely wasn't

    10 aware that there was a witness saying that petrol had

    11 been used. Like I said already, even when petrol would

    12 have been used, we would --

    13 MR. RADOVIC: Please, one moment.

    14 Mr. Terrier wants --

    15 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Mr. Radovic. I

    16 would just like to point out, maybe belatedly, that I

    17 don't have the feeling that the witness mentioned by

    18 Mr. Radovic had mentioned the chemical composition of

    19 the product that was used on his house. I don't think

    20 that he had mentioned the use of petrol used for cars,

    21 as was pointed out just now by Mr. Radovic, but I don't

    22 have anything against the question being asked, because

    23 indeed, if the question is asked it is only a

    24 hypothetical one.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, but it's worth asking

  39. 1 the question.

    2 MR. TERRIER: Quite. It's only a

    3 hypothetical question raised by Mr. Radovic then.

    4 MR. RADOVIC:

    5 Q. Yes, but the man that I am thinking of, I

    6 forget whether he is a witness or not so I'm not going

    7 to mention his name, but he did mention petrol. Of

    8 course, he did not say whether it was the super type of

    9 gasoline or the ordinary type, but he did speak about

    10 bottles of petrol, and that is why I'm asking that as a

    11 possibility, and I'd like to hear the witness answer.

    12 A. Okay. So as a possibility, a theoretical

    13 possibility, in -- first of all, I should say, as far

    14 as I know there are no scientific studies to see what

    15 happens after so long a period of time when you leave

    16 petrol. I know that for shorter periods of time, of

    17 course, in a few days already normally most of the

    18 petrol will have been evaporated unless it is shielded

    19 well down below in the ground and you have a better

    20 position. But normally most of it will have been

    21 evaporated and you will end up with, say, roughly one

    22 per cent of the original petrol being used is left

    23 over.

    24 Then what can happen is especially if it is

    25 in the ground area, what you can get is that you get

  40. 1 microbacterial -- microbacteria from the soils which

    2 attack the chemical components. Although in the

    3 Netherlands, even though in some of these studies we

    4 have looked for it we didn't find so much of it, I know

    5 definitely there are several studies of degradation of

    6 the materials which are much shorter than the period of

    7 five years I have understood in this case.

    8 There you see the pattern completely

    9 disappears, pattern of components, relative

    10 concentrations we would use to identify something as

    11 petrol.

    12 MR. RADOVIC: Would the expert witness please

    13 repeat the last sentence, because the interpreter said

    14 that he did not catch it, so would the gentlemen please

    15 repeat his last sentence?

    16 A. Okay. I don't know if I can do it literally,

    17 but the point is I gave three possibilities -- I gave

    18 three possibilities for -- we could not find any trace

    19 of accelerants now even though an accelerant has been

    20 used. For petrol it might be this -- the first case

    21 that the samples were taken from the wrong position,

    22 or, and I expounded on that the last time, that

    23 microbacterial deterioration has, you might say, eaten

    24 up the components of petrol which was originally used

    25 in this hypothetical, theoretical situation. I have

  41. 1 some scientific literature to support it, that that

    2 could have happened, even on a much shorter time scale

    3 than five years' time.

    4 Q. Let us conclude our examination now. Do you

    5 agree, then, that the results of your analysis would be

    6 the following: By a scientific method, it has not been

    7 proved that on the spot traces were found of substances

    8 which would be used as accelerants or

    9 combustion-enhancing substances which would lead to a

    10 fire?

    11 A. Yes. By scientific methods, no traces were

    12 detected of substances which could be used as, what I

    13 see over here, combustion-enhancing substances.

    14 MR. RADOVIC: Thank you. I have no

    15 questions.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel Radovic.

    17 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac?

    18 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: I have no questions

    19 either. Thank you, Your Honour.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Any re-examination?

    21 MR. TERRIER: No further questions. Thank

    22 you very much, Your Honour.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you so much for coming

    24 to give evidence. You may now be released.

    25 (The witness withdrew)

  42. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: The next witness will be

    2 Witness 8; is that right?

    3 MR. TERRIER: Exactly, Mr. President.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: No protective measures?

    5 MR. TERRIER: Yes. We do ask for protective

    6 measures, Your Honour.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: It was not specified on the

    8 list.

    9 MR. TERRIER: It is not specified on the

    10 list, Your Honour, but the witness asks for protection

    11 of her name and of her face.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Then it will be Witness FF,

    13 double "F"?

    14 MR. TERRIER: Indeed, Your Honour. It will

    15 be Witness FF.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Terrier, we would like to

    17 take a pause in about 30-minutes' time. I think that

    18 maybe you will be able to complete your direct

    19 examination?

    20 MR. TERRIER: Maybe, Your Honour.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Okay, maybe. Then maybe in

    22 30 minutes, we'll take a break, and maybe afterwards

    23 we'll go on to cross-examination.

    24 (The witness entered court)

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Madam. Could

  43. 1 you please make the solemn declaration?

    2 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    3 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

    4 truth.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    6 seated.


    8 Examined by Mr. Terrier:

    9 Q. Good morning, Madam. I'm going to give to

    10 the usher a piece of paper on which your name appears.

    11 Please tell us if this is your name.

    12 A. Yes.

    13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 279.

    14 MR. TERRIER:

    15 Q. Madam, the Judges have granted you a number

    16 of protective measures, measures which you have asked

    17 for. Your face and your name will be protected.

    18 Neither your face, nor your name, will be seen or known

    19 of outside the walls of this room. You may testify

    20 with no fear whatsoever, and you can tell us everything

    21 you know about the facts you have been a witness to.

    22 First of all, I would like you to tell us

    23 where you lived in 1993. I would also like you to tell

    24 us who the members of your family were.

    25 MR. TERRIER: Maybe, Your Honour, we could go

  44. 1 into closed session at once so that these elements of

    2 information could be given to the Chamber.

    3 Mr. Usher, could you please give to Witness

    4 FF these documents?

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: We are now in closed

    6 session.

    7 (Closed session)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

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    18 (redacted)

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    3 (redacted)

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    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

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    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

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    19 (redacted)

    20 (Open session)

    21 MR. TERRIER:

    22 Q. Madam, I would now like you to tell us more

    23 about the period of time that stretches from October

    24 1992, particularly, the conflict which took place in

    25 October 1992, and April 1993.

  47. 1 First of all, could you tell us for how long

    2 you had been living in Ahmici when the events took

    3 place?

    4 A. I lived there eight years, from 1985 until

    5 1993.

    6 Q. Did you have any relationships with your

    7 Croat neighbours?

    8 A. We would visit. We would come to see one

    9 another. We never had any problems. They came to

    10 visit us and we went to visit them. We had good

    11 relations.

    12 Q. Could you tell us who your closest Croat

    13 neighbours were?

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 Q. In the weeks or the months prior to April

    17 1993, did you notice a change in the general atmosphere

    18 prevailing in the village? Was there a change in the

    19 nature of the relationship between the Muslim community

    20 and the Croat community?

    21 A. No. There weren't any problems. During

    22 those last two or three months, they had started with

    23 their preparations, exercises. They walked along the

    24 road quite naturally wearing arms, but we never had any

    25 complications because of that, until the 16th of April.

  48. 1 Q. In the Santici area where you lived, was it

    2 possible for you to see soldiers very often? Did you

    3 see soldiers very often?

    4 A. I would often see them when they would walk

    5 by. My house was near the main road where all the

    6 traffic was, and that is where they usually went out to

    7 Donja Rovna and Radakovo (phoen) for their exercises.

    8 They were doing their job.

    9 Q. The Croat neighbours you told us about a

    10 moment ago, you also gave their names, did they also

    11 take part in these training exercises? Were there also

    12 soldiers?

    13 A. No, not them, but those others went. I never

    14 saw them in uniform.

    15 Q. Did you ever see your Croat neighbours

    16 dressed in a military uniform?

    17 A. I saw Drago in uniform. While they stood

    18 guard, I would see him. The others, Papic, also Vlado,

    19 Nenad, they were also in uniform.

    20 Q. You just mentioned Nenad. Could you give us

    21 his full name, first and last?

    22 A. His first name is Nenad, but I can't remember

    23 his last name. I can't remember his last name.

    24 Q. You mentioned Drago. Could you give us his

    25 full name?

  49. 1 A. Drago Josipovic.

    2 Q. In the days prior to April 16th, 1993, did

    3 any particular events take place, events which

    4 surprised you or shocked you, maybe?

    5 A. Nothing surprised me. There weren't any

    6 problems. It's not that we had some misunderstandings

    7 or that we quarrelled. There weren't any problems.

    8 Q. What about your husband, was he quite

    9 confidant about the situation?

    10 A. My husband didn't feel very well. He had a

    11 suspicion. He said, "Something strange is going on."

    12 He said that he felt something in the air. He wasn't

    13 well, although I comforted him and said that all would

    14 be well and that there wouldn't be any problems.

    15 Q. Did he try to explain what feeling he had?

    16 Did he tell you about strange things he may have

    17 noticed in or around the village?

    18 A. As far as that is concerned, he didn't say

    19 anything definite to me, but he only felt the tension.

    20 He said, "It's hard to breathe here. I don't feel too

    21 good at all."

    22 Q. On the eve of April 16th, 1993, i.e., during

    23 the day of the 15th or during the night of the 15th of

    24 April, did you, yourself, notice something strange in

    25 the atmosphere in the village?

  50. 1 A. My husband and I were at (redacted)

    2 (redacted), and we were coming back along the field. I saw

    3 a few soldiers in front of (redacted) house. They

    4 were watching us from up there. We came to our house.

    5 That evening, all was quiet. There were no lights on

    6 in their houses. Cars passed by often along our road

    7 going to Rovna. All was quiet before it started.

    8 Q. The fact that there were no lights in the

    9 Croat houses, was that something unusual?

    10 A. Yes, yes, because before, the lights would be

    11 on every evening. Naturally, we would see it because

    12 they lived nearby. But that evening, you couldn't see

    13 lights anywhere.

    14 Q. No lights in the Croat houses. But what

    15 about the Muslim houses, were there any lights in these

    16 houses?

    17 A. Yes. Naturally, we were in our own houses.

    18 We turned the lights on, as we always did. We weren't

    19 expecting anything. Naturally, we were at home with

    20 our children.

    21 Q. Let us now speak about what happened on April

    22 16th, 1993. What are your recollections of what took

    23 place during April 16th, 1993, your first recollections

    24 of what happened?

    25 A. I was awakened by two strong detonations. I

  51. 1 got up. My husband got up. I went to the room where

    2 my children slept. My older son got up. I took the

    3 younger one in my arms. I went back to the room where

    4 my husband and I had slept, together with him, and then

    5 I went back to my children's bedroom again. I looked

    6 through the window. (redacted)house on fire and

    7 her mother's house on fire. We didn't know what was

    8 going on. We heard shots. I took a sweater to put

    9 on.

    10 At that moment, a bullet came from my

    11 brother-in-law's house through the window, and I felt

    12 strange in the head. I ran out of this room to the

    13 room where my children were. I told my husband that a

    14 bullet had come into the room. He came back, and he

    15 said, "Will it set the house on fire? The children are

    16 here." He looked for the bullet but he couldn't find

    17 it. He came back to me again. We took the children.

    18 We carried them to the bathroom. We thought that they

    19 would be safe there, that nothing could happen to them

    20 there.

    21 My father-in-law and mother-in-law were at

    22 the entrance. There was a small room there. My

    23 husband, my children, and I were in the bathroom. We

    24 were quiet. There was a male voice shouting from the

    25 outside saying, "If there are any men in here, they

  52. 1 should come out." My father-in-law and my

    2 mother-in-law went out before we did, and I told my

    3 husband that we should go out, that there was nothing

    4 to wait for.

    5 My husband went out into the hallway. He

    6 took his jacket and shoes. I took my younger son in my

    7 arms. My husband went out before I did. I remained

    8 standing at the door because I didn't dare go out.

    9 They shot. They didn't shoot at us. The soldier who

    10 stood across from the place where he would lock me up,

    11 he held a rifle in his left hand, and he shot into the

    12 air.

    13 My husband went down the steps. The soldier

    14 told me to walk up to him, and I said that I didn't

    15 dare to and that I was afraid that someone would kill

    16 my children. He answered that no one would do me any

    17 harm, that I could come up to him without any fear. I

    18 ran across the yard to him. My mother-in-law followed

    19 me, and I turned around. I saw my brother-in-law

    20 standing in front of his house, and he was shouting to

    21 his family members that they should get out of the

    22 house too. That soldier opened the door for me. I

    23 walked in there, as did my children and my

    24 mother-in-law, and he closed the door again.

    25 A group had gathered by then. Some of them

  53. 1 said that they would go into the house to search for

    2 weapons. A soldier had broken glass all over the

    3 automobile, and others walked into the room that they

    4 had already torched, and it had already started

    5 burning. Then my sister-in-law came and her daughter,

    6 and they locked them up together with us, and then they

    7 set out down there.

    8 A few minutes later, it was quiet but I heard

    9 five shots, five individual shots, from the shed. Then

    10 all went quiet again, and nothing was heard after

    11 that. No one was there. They went on further.

    12 We were locked up in there until the

    13 afternoon. Then, again, we heard someone speaking in

    14 the yard. Two soldiers came. They opened the door for

    15 us, and they asked, "Why are you there?" We said that

    16 we were locked up by their soldiers, and they asked

    17 where our husbands were. They asked what happened to

    18 them, and I told the soldier what my husband wore. He

    19 just looked down to the ground and he didn't answer

    20 anything. He told my mother-in-law that a lot of men

    21 were taken prisoner and taken to Busovaca. He said,

    22 "Perhaps your menfolk are there." This soldier said,

    23 "This is Alija Izetbegovic's fault for the war

    24 breaking out." We didn't say anything to that.

    25 We asked him to bring us some water. He

  54. 1 brought us some water. He brought us two blankets from

    2 upstairs. He said that we should stay there because he

    3 said, "We don't know what to do with you. If another

    4 army comes along, they will kill you too." So they

    5 locked us up again and we waited.

    6 Some time had passed, and they, again, opened

    7 the door and they told us to go out into the yard.

    8 Josip came; Vinko came; two more soldiers came. I

    9 don't remember their names because I did not know

    10 everyone. Because we asked where our husbands were,

    11 they said that everything would be all right. They

    12 said, "More of your women," our women, "went to the

    13 cellar of Slavko Vrebac," and they said, "You can go

    14 there too."

    15 We came to the cellar of Slavko Vrebac. Our

    16 other women were there, indeed. Their women were there

    17 too. We walked into the cellar, and we saw our women

    18 crying. We asked them why they were crying and what

    19 was going on, and they said that their husbands and

    20 sons were killed and that they saw them as they were

    21 going out of the houses. They asked us where our

    22 menfolk were, and we didn't know what to answer to

    23 that. We spent the night there. They told us, in the

    24 morning, that we should leave because it wasn't safe

    25 for us there and that they could no longer offer us any

  55. 1 protection.

    2 We set out over the fields towards Muslim

    3 houses, and they were shooting after us. Nothing

    4 happened to anyone, though. We came to a Muslim

    5 house. A Croat came there and he said, "Don't worry.

    6 I'll take you along the road to the entrance to Sivrino

    7 Selo, and your people will take you over from there,"

    8 he said. The column left from there, and we received

    9 Sivrino Selo. Our people received us there. We stayed

    10 there two evenings.

    11 In the morning, we left, setting off towards

    12 Poculica. We stayed there for a week. After that, we

    13 went down to Zenica, and I stayed there for three

    14 months. Then I went through the forest to my mother's,

    15 and I lived there. I got a temporary residence in

    16 Zenica, so I went back there. That's where I live with

    17 my children.

    18 Q. Thank you, Madam. I will ask you a few

    19 questions so that everything is perfectly clear.

    20 MR. TERRIER: Your Honour, maybe this would

    21 be a good time to take a break, and that would also

    22 enable the witness to rest a little bit. Maybe we

    23 could take the break now.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Whatever you decide.

    25 MR. TERRIER: Madam, do you feel the need to

  56. 1 take a rest?

    2 THE WITNESS: I feel quite all right for the

    3 moment. I don't feel bad.

    4 MR. TERRIER: Then we shall go on.

    5 Mr. Usher, could you please put on the ELMO the aerial

    6 photograph so that the witness can have a look?

    7 Q. Witness FF, I will ask you to show us the

    8 houses which you saw on fire that morning of the 16th

    9 of April?

    10 A. This is (redacted) and this is her

    11 mother's house, and this is (redacted). I saw the

    12 house on fire (indicating).

    13 Q. You mentioned (redacted)house and (redacted).

    14 (redacted). You're thinking of (redacted)?

    15 A. Yes, (redacted), yes.

    16 Q. When you talk about (redacted) house, are you

    17 thinking of (redacted)

    18 A. (redacted) yes, that's right.

    19 Q. Did you see your (redacted) house,

    20 (redacted), going into flames?

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. Did you see soldiers being gathered around

    23 the house (redacted)?

    24 A. They were around his barn, his shed, where

    25 they fired. They did not shoot at us, but I did not

  57. 1 see the soldiers, although there were a lot of them

    2 when they shut us up and when they came into our yard.

    3 Q. Did you hear the soldiers who were around

    4 (redacted)?

    5 A. I did not hear them. Because of the noise

    6 made by the shooting, I did not hear them. I just

    7 heard, when I came up to the entrance and when the

    8 soldier was to shut me in there, (redacted) said that his

    9 family was going out of the house.

    10 Q. You heard a voice. It was a soldier's voice,

    11 wasn't it?

    12 A. No. I heard (redacted) shouting to his family to

    13 come out, and before that, the soldiers called out to

    14 me to come out. The soldier who was to have locked me

    15 up, I heard his voice when we were in the house. I

    16 don't remember whether the others called out to us when

    17 they were around (redacted), because there was heavy

    18 shooting.

    19 Q. When you were locked up in the barn, you were

    20 there, together with your mother-in-law and your two

    21 children, can you assess the time which elapsed before

    22 your sister-in-law arrived? I think I can mention her

    23 first name. I have (redacted) and her daughter in mind.

    24 A. (redacted)and (redacted) the daughter. Several

    25 minutes elapsed. She came right after us. Not much

  58. 1 time had gone by, just a few minutes.

    2 Q. What was the condition of these two? In what

    3 state were they in?

    4 A. Well, it was quite normal that they were

    5 afraid, just as we were. It was frightening. We had

    6 no words to express our thoughts. We said nothing to

    7 each other.

    8 Q. Madam, I'd like to show you this diagram.

    9 MR. TERRIER: I mention to the Court that

    10 this is not a diagram according to scale. It is just a

    11 rough sketch of the buildings.

    12 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 282.

    13 MR. TERRIER:

    14 Q. Can you identify the location of your house

    15 in this diagram?

    16 A. This is my house (indicating). This was the

    17 summer kitchen, the wood storage shed, the garage, and

    18 a facility that we had for slaughtering cattle. This

    19 was the barn (indicating), and there was a small hut

    20 here where I was locked up.

    21 Q. Could you show the location where you were on

    22 this diagram when you saw your husband and your

    23 brother-in-law being taken away by the soldiers?

    24 A. My father-in-law? The entrance to the upper

    25 floor was here (indicating). This was the entrance to

  59. 1 the house (indicating). My husband had gone out before

    2 me, and my father-in-law went with him. They went

    3 across the yard, this way, towards the barn. Then I

    4 lost sight of them. I remained standing at the

    5 entrance, at the door, until I went up to the soldier

    6 who locked me up.

    7 Q. I'd like to ask you to put a cross on that

    8 location where you were standing, where you were when

    9 your husband and your father-in-law were taken away by

    10 the soldiers.

    11 A. (Marks). I was standing at the entrance to

    12 my house. This was where the door was (indicating).

    13 There were two steps. My husband and father-in-law had

    14 gone out across the yard. This was the yard

    15 (indicating), and they were taken this way, down here.

    16 I stayed here. My husband put on some shoes. At that

    17 moment, the soldier called out to me, and I ran across

    18 the yard to the place where they shut me in.

    19 Q. Wait a minute. Madam, could you put a letter

    20 "A" on the first cross you put on this diagram.

    21 There, where you were standing, put the letter "A,"

    22 please, if you can?

    23 A. (Marks)

    24 Q. For the record, I shall say that the other

    25 three crosses you put on this diagram represent the

  60. 1 route taken by your husband and your father-in-law when

    2 they were taken away by the soldiers.

    3 I'd like to ask you to put a cross and the

    4 letter "B" on the location where you went into the

    5 barn, to show where the barn door is, actually.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak?

    7 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I can't see

    8 anything on the screen so that I'm not able to follow

    9 the testimony of the witness. I'd like this to be made

    10 possible.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. It's difficult to do

    12 everything at the same time.

    13 MR. TERRIER:

    14 Q. Thank you, Madam. Please put a cross there

    15 where you went into the barn, if you can.

    16 A. (Marks)

    17 Q. Then put the letter "B" on that place.

    18 A. The place where I put the cross?

    19 Q. Indeed. Then we'll put the diagram back on

    20 the ELMO.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Could we go back over

    22 everything that we said before, because now we have the

    23 diagram in front of us and we can follow better. So

    24 "A," what is "A"?

    25 MR. TERRIER:

  61. 1 Q. Madam, everyone can now see the diagram, as

    2 well as the crosses you put on it. It might be useful

    3 to explain, once more, what these crosses represent.

    4 You mentioned a first cross with the letter "A" next to

    5 it.

    6 A. That is the exit, the way out of the house,

    7 and that is where we left from. My family, myself, my

    8 husband, my father-in-law, and mother-in-law, that's

    9 where we went out of the house we lived in.

    10 Q. You then put another three little crosses

    11 towards the left-hand side. What do they represent?

    12 A. They represent the yard across which my

    13 brother-in-law, father-in-law, and husband were taken.

    14 Q. This is the way they went when they were

    15 taken away?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Lastly, you put another small cross with the

    18 letter "B" next to it. What does that location show?

    19 A. The circle indicates the spot to where I

    20 came, up to the barn door, where there was a little

    21 space inside. I was shut in with my children and my

    22 mother-in-law.

    23 Q. You went from your house to the barn where

    24 you were locked up, together with your children and

    25 your mother-in-law. Did you go straight ahead of you?

  62. 1 Was it in a straightforward way?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Earlier on, you spoke about gunfire and then

    4 five distinct shots. When did you hear them?

    5 A. When we were shut up. When my in-law came

    6 and her daughter, when my husband's brother's wife came

    7 with her daughter, several minutes later, I heard five

    8 shots, five individual shots, below the barn.

    9 Q. Did you see your house on fire?

    10 A. After some time had gone by, the room where

    11 the bullet entered under (redacted) was ablaze. The

    12 room was on fire, and then the summer kitchen,

    13 everything began to burn there too immediately.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: I'm sorry. We have to have a

    15 break. The interpreters have been working for over two

    16 hours.

    17 MR. TERRIER: Only a few questions, but very

    18 few of them.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: We'll have a 30-minute

    20 break.

    21 --- Recess taken at 11.03 a.m.

    22 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.

    23 (The witness entered court)

    24 MR. TERRIER:

    25 Q. Madam, would you mind taking the diagram

  63. 1 again, the one that is on the desk?

    2 Could you please indicate on this diagram

    3 where you were in relation to your house when you saw

    4 the burning houses on that morning, and more

    5 specifically so, the house of (redacted)?

    6 A. (redacted). I saw her house burning in

    7 the room where my children were sleeping, and the room

    8 that the bullet came(redacted). I looked

    9 through the window and I saw (redacted) house on fire

    10 and her mother's house on fire.

    11 When I came to the place where I was shut up,

    12 I saw (redacted) house on fire, and I did not see my

    13 husband's brother's house on fire. That was not on

    14 fire.

    15 Q. Show us on the diagram where the

    16 window (inaudible) -- when you saw that.

    17 A. That's where the window was, belonging to

    18 (redacted) house, and this is the window where I was

    19 before I left. My children slept here. The window was

    20 on this side of the house (indicating).

    21 Q. So this is the window facing(redacted),

    22 isn't it?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. At that very moment did you see any soldiers

    25 around the houses?

  64. 1 A. No, I didn't. They were hidden behind

    2 (redacted), which was located next to his house. I

    3 could just hear shots being fired.

    4 Q. Could you show on the diagram where the

    5 shooting came from?

    6 A. They came from (redacted)

    7 in the direction of our house, but they were not firing

    8 at us.

    9 Q. What was that shooting directed at? Who were

    10 they aiming at do you think?

    11 A. Probably they were firing to frighten us,

    12 because they had nobody to fire at because we hadn't

    13 left the house we were in yet. (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 Q. So you stated that you heard (redacted);

    16 is that right?

    17 A. When I went out of my house and when I came

    18 to the place where I was shut in, (redacted) shouted out to

    19 his children to come out of the house because (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 Q. Could you show on that diagram where (redacted)

    22 was, if you saw him, where he was when he called out

    23 his family members for them to come out?

    24 A. (redacted) was located below his house, here in

    25 the middle of his field. This was his shed, and he was

  65. 1 in the middle of his field (indicating).

    2 Q. Could I ask you to give us a rough

    3 approximation -- of course, it can't be very accurate,

    4 but could you indicate the location where he was and

    5 put the letter "C" there?

    6 A. (Marks)

    7 Q. Thank you. Did you see soldiers close to

    8 your house, and if so, when did you see them?

    9 A. Could you repeat the question, please? I

    10 didn't understand it.

    11 Q. Of course. When did you see the first

    12 soldiers around your house?

    13 A. I saw the soldiers from the place I was shut

    14 in when they gathered there, because there was a small

    15 opening in the door where we were shut in.

    16 Q. My last question is as follows: Did your

    17 husband have a weapon in your house?

    18 A. At that time we didn't, but before that we

    19 did and our neighbours took it away from us.

    20 Q. Which neighbours are you thinking of?

    21 A. Our (redacted) neighbours.

    22 Q. Could you name them?

    23 A. Yes, they were below our house(redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  66. 1 Q. I'd like to rephrase my question. Could you

    2 specify to whom, (redacted) your husband

    3 gave -- surrendered the weapons? Could you be more

    4 specific?

    5 A. (redacted), because he was there. He was the

    6 main commander there.

    7 Q. Do you have (redacted) in mind?

    8 A. Yes, (redacted)

    9 Q. Did you know him?

    10 A. I knew him. I did not have occasion to have

    11 contact with him, but I knew him because he was near my

    12 house. (redacted) He lived

    13 across the road, stood across the road.

    14 Q. And according to you, he was the local HVO

    15 commander?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Is he the brother of(redacted)

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Could you remember approximately when your

    20 husband gave him the weapons he had?

    21 A. I don't remember.

    22 MR. TERRIER: Thank you very much, Madam.

    23 I have no further questions for this witness.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    25 Mr. Pavkovic?

  67. 1 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, the witness

    2 will be questioned by attorney Luko Susak. Thank you.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    4 Cross-examined by Mr. Susak:

    5 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President.

    6 Mr. President, I would like us to move into

    7 closed session, because we shall be mentioning certain

    8 names that shouldn't be mentioned, but I will be brief

    9 with my questions otherwise.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: All right.

    11 (Closed session)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

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  73. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (The witness withdrew)

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: You have other witnesses,

    5 haven't you? Fine.

    6 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Your Honour, this next

    7 witness will be a protected witness as well, face and

    8 name, and it will be Witness GG.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: And on our list?

    10 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Number --

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Seven?

    12 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Number 10.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Ten.

    14 (The witness entered court)

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Madam. Could

    16 you please make the solemn declaration?

    17 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    18 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

    19 truth.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    21 seated.

    22 THE WITNESS: Thank you.


    24 Examined by Mr. Moskowitz:

    25 Q. At this time, I will hand to the witness a

  74. 1 piece of paper, through the usher, with the name of the

    2 witness written on it.

    3 Please look at it, Witness, and say "yes" or

    4 "no" if that is your name.

    5 A. Yes.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: While we are taking a look at

    7 the name, may I ask you whether the statements you gave

    8 us for this witness are only two, one dated the 10th of

    9 July, '93, the other one, the 3rd of February, '95?

    10 MR. MOSKOWITZ: That is correct, yes.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    12 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, Mr. President.

    13 Q. Witness GG, you have requested protection,

    14 and the Tribunal has granted protection for your face

    15 and your name. You can be assured that neither your

    16 name, nor your face, will be known outside this

    17 courtroom.

    18 Should there come a time, during the course

    19 of your testimony, where you would need to talk about

    20 matters that might, through indirection or some

    21 connection, tend to identify you in some way, I will

    22 ask to go in closed session, and if the Tribunal grants

    23 that request, then your voice will remain in this room

    24 and will not be heard outside of this room, so that

    25 your identity can remain protected.

  75. 1 Do you understand and do you have any

    2 questions?

    3 A. Yes. I have no questions.

    4 Q. To begin, could you just tell us how old you

    5 are?

    6 A. Twenty-eight.

    7 Q. Prior to April 16, 1993, where did you live?

    8 A. In Ahmici, Zume, more precisely.

    9 Q. Could you tell us, during that time period,

    10 and I'm not referring to the actual day of April 16,

    11 1993, but during that time period, could you give us an

    12 idea of your family, not by giving any names, but by

    13 describing relationships? I'm specifically interested

    14 in who was living in your house in Ahmici.

    15 A. My father, mother, and sister.

    16 Q. Was this a two-level house?

    17 A. What was that?

    18 Q. Was there an upper story and a lower story?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Could you describe which floor or which level

    21 of the house you and your family lived?

    22 A. We lived upstairs.

    23 Q. How would you be able to get from the

    24 upstairs level to the downstairs level in that house?

    25 A. We would have to go out and then go to the

  76. 1 other story.

    2 Q. So there was an outside staircase in order to

    3 go from the upstairs to the downstairs; is that right?

    4 A. Yes, yes.

    5 MR. MOSKOWITZ: At this time, Your Honour,

    6 I'm going to request that the witness identify her

    7 house more specifically, so I would request going into

    8 closed session.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. We will move into

    10 closed session.

    11 (Closed session)

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    21 (Open session)

    22 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you.

    23 Q. Could you tell us the first thing you

    24 remember hearing or seeing on April 16, 1993?

    25 A. The first thing that happened was that

  81. 1 shooting woke me up. I got up. A few minutes later, a

    2 tracer bullet got into our living room.

    3 Q. What happened when the tracer bullet entered

    4 your living room? What did you see?

    5 A. It fell on the couch, and it started

    6 burning. I went to fetch some water, and I tried to

    7 extinguish the fire.

    8 Q. Could you hear any noises coming from outside

    9 your house at this time, any sounds?

    10 A. Shooting.

    11 Q. Did you try to do anything to summon help in

    12 any way?

    13 A. I took the telephone so that I could make a

    14 call and ask what was going on, but the telephone was

    15 out of order.

    16 Q. What did you and your mother then do? I take

    17 it now you are on the upper floor at this time; is that

    18 right?

    19 A. Yes, at the upper floor. That's where we

    20 were. I then told my mother that this part of the

    21 house was not safe, that it would burn down for sure,

    22 and that we should go to the lower part of the house.

    23 Q. In order to go to the lower part of the

    24 house, you actually had to go outside and use the

    25 outside staircase; is that right?

  82. 1 A. Yes, yes, yes. You have to go outside, and

    2 that is how you get into the lower part of the house,

    3 the lower floor.

    4 Q. Did you see anything when you went outside to

    5 go down to the lower part of the house?

    6 A. From the lower part facing the main road, I

    7 saw three soldiers in uniform. On the upper side of

    8 the house, there were two soldiers, also in uniform.

    9 Q. Could you tell whether they were carrying any

    10 weapons at that time?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Were they carrying weapons?

    13 A. Yes, they were.

    14 Q. What do you recall happening next?

    15 A. When they saw us, they got together in a

    16 group, and they pushed my mother and myself into the

    17 lower part of the house, into this room downstairs, and

    18 five of them got in, together with my mother and

    19 myself.

    20 Q. Did these soldiers say anything to you and

    21 your mother as they were pushing you back into the

    22 lower part of the house?

    23 A. They were cursing our balija mothers. When

    24 they got in, they started searching the house, and they

    25 asked where my father was. It was chaotic. Every one

  83. 1 of them had something to say.

    2 Q. Could you describe, a little bit, the room

    3 where you and these soldiers were now in on the lower

    4 part of the house?

    5 A. It was a room. You could walk into this room

    6 from the outside. It wasn't very big. It was a living

    7 room, something like that.

    8 Q. Were the lights on in this room?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. How close were you to some or all of these

    11 soldiers while you were in the room with them?

    12 A. Very close, because it's a smallish room.

    13 There were five of us. My mother was there. I was

    14 there. That is seven of us altogether, together with

    15 all the things that were in there, so we were very

    16 close.

    17 Q. How long do you think you spent in that room

    18 with these soldiers that morning?

    19 A. Perhaps five or ten minutes, something like

    20 that, but it was very long for me.

    21 Q. Did you recognise any of these soldiers?

    22 A. Yes. I recognised Anto Furundzija, because,

    23 at one moment, one of the soldiers was trying to make

    24 me go and call my neighbours. Then I turned around,

    25 and I recognised Anto Furundzija. He was a schoolmate

  84. 1 of mine. I asked him whether I could take some shoes,

    2 as they were making me go outside. I asked him, "What

    3 is it? What is going on," because he knew me well and

    4 I knew him too.

    5 Q. Did he say anything to you when you asked him

    6 about your shoes?

    7 A. No, no, nothing, nothing. We didn't answer

    8 that question of mine at all.

    9 Q. How was he dressed?

    10 A. He was in camouflage uniform. He had a

    11 Jokers emblem on his sleeve, and he had one black line

    12 painted on both of his cheeks, I think.

    13 Q. Did you have any trouble at all recognising

    14 him as your former schoolmate, Anto Furundzija?

    15 A. Yes, yes.

    16 Q. I guess my question is: Did you have any

    17 difficulty recognising him or did you recognise him

    18 immediately as you saw him?

    19 A. I recognised him immediately, quite clearly,

    20 and I addressed him immediately.

    21 MR. MOSKOWITZ: At this time, I would ask the

    22 witness be shown formerly admitted Exhibit P249.

    23 Q. Could you tell us who this person is in

    24 Exhibit P249?

    25 A. Anto Furundzija.

  85. 1 Q. Is that the man you saw in your house on

    2 April 16, 1993?

    3 A. Yes, but he was a little slimmer then.

    4 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Can we now show the witness

    5 previously admitted Exhibit P45?

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic?

    7 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, Your Honours,

    8 the Prosecutor is now asking the witness, on the basis

    9 of this photograph, to identify a certain individual.

    10 However, there is another case against this individual

    11 in this Trial Chamber, and I don't think that it is

    12 proper that we should carry out an identification of

    13 this individual who is being tried in another case. I

    14 don't see the purpose of having the identification made

    15 here because, in this particular hearing, this is not

    16 an accused.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic, you are

    18 right when you say that there is a trial before this

    19 same Trial Chamber against Mr. Anto Furundzija, but we

    20 have already ruled on this matter, that we will not

    21 take into account any evidence tendered in this trial

    22 when we make any finding in the other trial. Whatever

    23 is said here about Mr. Furundzija will have no

    24 relevance whatsoever in the other trial.

    25 Of course, this is the basic principle of a

  86. 1 fair trial. It would not be fair to Mr. Furundzija to

    2 take into account evidence in this trial which has been

    3 tendered here. We have already ruled on this matter.

    4 MR. MOSKOWITZ: If the witness could now be

    5 shown the next exhibit, Exhibit P45.

    6 Q. Does this look familiar, Witness GG?

    7 A. Yes. That is the emblem worn by Anto

    8 Furundzija.

    9 Q. Did Anto Furundzija have a weapon with him

    10 when you saw him in your house that day?

    11 A. Yes, he did. I think he had a rifle.

    12 Anyway, it was a long barrel.

    13 Q. Now, I believe you were saying that, at one

    14 point, a soldier asked you to do something. Do you

    15 recall what that soldier asked you to do?

    16 A. He asked me to call my neighbours, the

    17 neighbours who lived across from my house. He asked me

    18 whether there were any menfolk there, and I said that I

    19 didn't know. I asked him not to make me go because I

    20 had just got up and there was shooting outside.

    21 At that moment, the other soldier said, "Get

    22 out." My mother and I started to leave, although my

    23 mother didn't want to go. She wanted to stay in the

    24 room, but they said, "Get out. Go outside."

    25 Q. As you were leaving or, perhaps, prior to

  87. 1 your leaving the house, did you see any soldiers with

    2 any kind of communication device?

    3 A. In going out, I looked down, I wasn't allowed

    4 to turn around, but I just glanced downwards, and I saw

    5 him take up a walkie-talkie or some device of that

    6 kind, and he said, "Everything is going according to

    7 plan."

    8 Q. When this soldier said, "Everything is going

    9 according to plan," was he speaking into this

    10 walkie-talkie or was he talking to one of the soldiers

    11 in the room?

    12 A. He was saying it into the walkie-talkie.

    13 Q. Was Anto Furundzija in the room when that was

    14 being said into the walkie-talkie?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Now, when you and your mother left the house

    17 on orders of these soldiers, what do you remember

    18 seeing or hearing next?

    19 A. While we were leaving the house, we were in

    20 front of the house, and one of the soldiers climbed up

    21 onto the stairs leading to the upper story of the

    22 house, and he looked in the direction of the house of

    23 (redacted).

    24 MR. MOSKOWITZ: At this point, Your Honour, I

    25 would request that we go back into closed session for a

  88. 1 couple more questions.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: All right.

    3 (Closed session)

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    15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

    16 12.55 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

    17 the 12th day of October, 1998 at

    18 9.30 a.m.