Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4369

1 Monday, 12th October, 1998

2 (Open session)

3 (The accused entered court)

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.

6 Case number IT-95-16-T, the Prosecutor versus Zoran

7 Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago

8 Josipovic, Dragan Papic, Vladimir Santic, also known as

9 "Vlado."

10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Good morning.

11 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Mr. President, may I make a

12 short statement?

13 Following the testimony of one of the

14 witnesses last week, the witness before last, I

15 believe, we did another search of our files and found

16 what looks like a statement that had not been disclosed

17 to the Defence, which we very much regret. Apparently

18 this statement, if it, in fact, is a statement, was,

19 for some reason, not entered into the computer system

20 and so it was not found.

21 We do not even know if it is a statement. It

22 may be notes of an investigator that was never signed

23 by the witness. But in any event, we propose to turn

24 that over now in its entirety. We have alerted the

25 Victims and Witnesses Unit not to take this witness

Page 4370

1 back until we hear from the Defence as to whether or

2 not they would propose to want to ask her additional

3 questions.

4 Again, I very much regret the late discovery

5 in this and can only say that it was something we just

6 did not know we had until we looked again this weekend.

7 So at this time, I would ask the usher to --

8 JUDGE CASSESE: This relates to Witness

9 FF or ...

10 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Witness EE, Your Honour. I

11 might add that we have placed a phone call in to the

12 investigator whose name appears at the front of this

13 statement or notes to determine whether, in fact, it

14 was a signed statement or simply an investigative

15 canvass sheet of some sort, so we should be hearing

16 from that investigator sometime this morning.

17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel Krajina?

18 MR. KRAJINA: Good morning, Your Honours.

19 Mr. President, if I may, I should like to

20 raise a matter of procedure regarding the Court order

21 that the Defence is duty-bound to submit its legal view

22 on the criminal responsibility to the Prosecution

23 within a particular period of time.

24 We should like to have the answer to this

25 question, but we also wish to address this matter in a

Page 4371

1 different manner also; that is, we intended that, at

2 the time when we produce evidence, to invite an expert,

3 that is, the President of the Supreme Court of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina or another person of similar

5 competence and similar responsibility, to explain

6 before this Court concrete valid sentence confirmed by

7 the Supreme Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina which deals

8 with a crime -- with a war crime which is defined as

9 the persecution of a civilian population of a different

10 religion, that is, Bosniaks, Muslims. We believe that

11 that would give us a more complete picture as to how

12 the question of persecution is addressed by the State

13 whose citizens are accused here.

14 We believe it is very important, that it is

15 very relevant when it comes to Count 1 of the

16 indictment.

17 Therefore, I should like to hear from Your

18 Honours an instruction whether we shall be able to

19 adduce this evidence in the matter as we conceived it,

20 that is, at the time when we produce evidence and bring

21 in our witnesses or would you have another view on the

22 matter? Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel Krajina.

24 Yes, we believe that you are fully entitled to call

25 this expert as an expert witness when it comes to the

Page 4372

1 Defence case, so as one of your witnesses, an expert

2 witness. Of course, we could stick to our Rules on the

3 expert witnesses. You may ask him to produce a written

4 statement. If there is no challenge, no objection by

5 the Prosecution, we could simply take into account the

6 written statement by the expert witness. However, if

7 you insist that he should be examined and

8 cross-examined, that's even better. I think, in any

9 case, it would be important to have the contribution of

10 the President of the Supreme Court of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12 MR. KRAJINA: Thank you, Your Honour. We

13 thought that even this valid sentence could be shown to

14 the Court to try to explain why the sentence was

15 passed. Thank you very much.

16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. So this judgement

17 will be translated into English, I understand. It

18 could be circulated even before you call the witness.

19 MR. KRAJINA: Yes.

20 JUDGE CASSESE: Excellent. Counsel

21 Pavkovic?

22 MR. PAVKOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. I

23 should like to inform Your Honours about a matter,

24 rather, a problem, which of late has been of

25 considerable concern to both counsel and the accused.

Page 4373

1 I don't know if this is the right time to

2 talk about it, as last Friday afternoon you announced a

3 Status Conference; however, we fear that it might be

4 too late if we waited for that particular session.

5 If I may, I should like to say a few things

6 which concern the time the Defence will need for

7 preparation and adduction of its evidence because this

8 week the Prosecution will exhaust its list of

9 witnesses, at least that is how it was announced, and

10 I'm saying this because come Friday, perhaps you will

11 have some views on this and yet we are afraid that it

12 might be too late to discuss it then because it is very

13 important for the Defence.

14 Your Honour, on several occasions, when

15 considering the necessary time and, of course, bearing

16 in mind your programme or, rather, your timetable for

17 this case, you spoke about four weeks which the Defence

18 would have at its disposal to prepare and call its

19 witnesses and produce the evidence for the Defence.

20 We analysed very carefully all of the

21 commitments before us, and in particular with regard to

22 the preparation of our witnesses, and following that,

23 we arrived at the conclusion that that particular

24 segment of time would not be sufficient for the

25 Defence.

Page 4374

1 In other words, when the Prosecution

2 concludes with the examination of their witnesses, and

3 I think that now already we are faced with some

4 deviations from the statements of these witnesses as

5 against their written statements that were disclosed,

6 these are some quite new facts, some quite new

7 circumstances, and the witness list which the Defence

8 had prepared before this trial began needs to be

9 redefined; in other words, we shall have to -- I

10 wouldn't like to use the word "adjust" the existing,

11 that is, the witnesses we already had in mind in view

12 of the newly arising circumstances but we shall also

13 have to think about calling new witnesses.

14 The difficulties involved -- I presume you

15 could also glean from this part when the Prosecution

16 brought their witnesses, the difficulties in bringing

17 the witnesses here and having their statements are

18 quite obvious. The Defence also has very many

19 difficulties when it comes to the preparation of these

20 witnesses for the Defence and we are planning to call

21 some 80 witnesses. These witnesses are not available

22 to us at all times, and there are some difficulties

23 related to this because some of the witnesses do not

24 really -- or, rather, do not work in their places of

25 residence so that they also go back for weekends, and

Page 4375

1 weekends are the only time when the Defence can

2 establish contact with them and talk to them.

3 However, the most important thing, Your

4 Honours, which I wish to point out and which is a

5 completely new thing, a new situation with which the

6 Defence is faced: Some two weeks ago, or perhaps even

7 more, the proceedings began before this Court in the

8 Blaskic case. It is a fact that one of the counts of

9 the indictment in this particular case is also the one

10 which relates to Ahmici. In other words, the same

11 event which is the subject of hearing before this

12 Chamber.

13 In this particular case, the Defence, in view

14 of the client -- Defence position could not know what

15 the Defence would -- what kind of evidence would the

16 Defence in the Blaskic case adduce, what witnesses they

17 would call, what kind of documents, what kind of papers

18 they would be producing as evidence, and we learned

19 that only when the Defence began its case, so only in

20 the case of the Ahmici event we also learned that

21 several hundred, reportedly 250 different documents,

22 papers, orders, reports are being prepared which are

23 supposed to shed light on every fact related to the

24 events in Ahmici. As this is the same event, perhaps

25 it would be wrong to establish before this Court a

Page 4376

1 different factual situation from the one in the Blaskic

2 case. I do not think it will be good.

3 So in this case, the Defence intends to go

4 through all that documentation, to analyse it, study

5 it, and make an adequate selection, and all of this,

6 Your Honours, takes time.

7 We therefore believe that, along with the

8 preparation of witnesses, we simply cannot do within

9 three or four weeks, that is, a month's time.

10 There is no doubt that the Defence highly

11 appreciates all the efforts that Your Lordships have

12 made to ensure and fair and expeditious trial; however,

13 likewise the Defence is worried what will happen if it

14 does not have enough time for preparation. It is

15 afraid it might miss some relevant facts and that the

16 facts might not be established fully and completely

17 which is, as we, I believe, all agree, a fundamental

18 prerequisite for a fair trial.

19 Your Lordships, in conclusion, I should like

20 to point out that what I am talking about now is the

21 view of all the accused and their counsel. The accused

22 Vlatko Kupreskic and his counsel, of course, if the

23 Chamber goes along with our proposal, will not be

24 against it nor cause any problems.

25 The Defence therefore proposes that in

Page 4377

1 addition to that one month as envisaged by you, we

2 should also be allotted, for all of this business that

3 I mentioned and a number of other things, get another

4 month, that is, not less than two months after the

5 completion of the proceedings which concern the

6 evidence for the Prosecution, that is, all of the

7 witnesses for the Prosecution.

8 Thank you very much, Your Lordships, for your

9 attention.

10 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Krajina?

11 MR. KRAJINA: Mr. President, my learned

12 friend said a few things about our attitude, and I

13 should also like to add an explanation.

14 We are asking for an extension for the simple

15 reason that we do not intend to refer to documents that

16 were already mentioned and which are used in the

17 Blaskic case, and therefore, we do not think that it is

18 necessary to ask for an extension because we shall not

19 be referring to these documents. But, of course, if

20 Your Lordships go along with what my learned friend has

21 asked for for that extension, we, of course, will go

22 along with that. Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic?

24 MR. RADOVIC: Perhaps when we explain the

25 reasons why we need two months for the preparation of

Page 4378

1 the Defence, perhaps another reason for this is the

2 fact that during the Blaskic case, the unit which

3 attacked Ahmici was mentioned as in this particular

4 case. The event in Ahmici is not disputable, I mean,

5 as the Prosecution described it, but it is disputable

6 when it comes to these accused in the case of Ahmici.

7 The documents which are now produced in the

8 Blaskic case explain how it came about and what units

9 participated in the event in Ahmici, and we think it is

10 very important because so far, in our view, it is still

11 not clear which were the HVO units which attacked

12 Ahmici; and for this reason, we believe that the

13 evidence which is adduced in the Blaskic case, and this

14 is mostly written evidence, that is, objective

15 evidence, not witness statements which, of course, may

16 be suggestive or false and indicate some wrong roads or

17 wrong identification, these are documents which are

18 indicating specific individuals or specific units which

19 participated in it, and the accused here, most of the

20 accused or all -- none of the accused were members of

21 these units, nor did they take part in this action as

22 you will hear from the Defence when we begin our case.

23 Thank you very much.

24 I simply wanted to add this explanation to

25 what my learned friend Pavkovic has just said.

Page 4379

1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I will turn to

2 the Prosecution to ask about their position.

3 MR. TERRIER: Your Honours, I understand

4 perfectly well what the concerns of the Defence are. I

5 understand that some very useful pieces of information

6 can and must be taken from the proceedings against

7 General Blaskic, but I am concerned in respect of the

8 possible delay that will be brought about thereby.

9 If this Court was to grant the request by the

10 Defence, that would mean, since we are to conclude our

11 case this week, this would mean that we couldn't start

12 until the 15th of December with the Defence case. I

13 don't think that we could use that time for the later

14 part of December, we would have to start in January.

15 Two months will be necessary to hear 70 or 80

16 witnesses. In other words, we won't be able to

17 conclude this case until late February or the beginning

18 of March with the Defence case, which would be a

19 considerable delay. So we would not have the sentence

20 at this level until May.

21 But I leave it up to you, to your

22 appreciation. I am attached as much as the Court and

23 the Defence is to the fairness of this trial. It is a

24 very complex trial. I understand that evidence must be

25 adduced by the Defence following the Prosecution case,

Page 4380

1 which is no easy task for the Defence, so I leave it up

2 to you to appreciate this whilst we express our

3 concerns.

4 There should not be any problem in ensuring

5 fairness, equality of arms, between the two parties.

6 You know that the difficulties which the Defence is

7 encountering now were the same for the Prosecution when

8 it had to prepare its case. I leave it up to you to

9 assess all this.

10 JUDGE CASSESE: Well, we are going to think

11 it over. We are going into look into this very

12 sensitive issue. But I am very grateful to

13 Mr. Pavkovic for insisting on the very crucial problem

14 right now. This gives us more time for consideration

15 and possible conclusion as soon as Friday. But if we

16 can, now that we know that we are going to have some 80

17 witnesses for the Defence - and I agree with you,

18 Mr. Terrier, you may need some two months of hearing to

19 hear all the witnesses - so we have some basic factors

20 to base our decision, our ruling on by Friday, by the

21 time we have our Status Conference.

22 So this being said, in respect of the

23 document we received this morning, I believe that

24 Mr. Radovic, and rightly so, is asking for some time.

25 I suggest we come back to this issue at 2.00 this

Page 4381

1 afternoon to see what the position of the Defence is

2 with regard to this document, to see whether the

3 Defence would like the witness to be called back to

4 expand on her testimony or on his testimony.

5 Before moving on to the next witness, I would

6 like to ask both parties, especially so to the

7 Prosecution, whether it intends to call this

8 anthropologist, Mrs. Bringa. It would be of utmost

9 relevance. I don't know whether the Defence was able

10 to read the book written by the anthropologist and was

11 able to view the film.

12 Could the Defence tell us whether they can

13 agree to this document being tendered into evidence

14 without having the witness coming to the courtroom? We

15 are interested in this witness, and we could call her

16 at the time of the Defence case as a Court witness.

17 This being said, I wonder whether the Defence has made

18 up their minds as to that?

19 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Honours, the Defence has

20 not received the book, nor have we had the opportunity

21 to view the film, because we have not been given it.

22 Therefore, we cannot give your our view on this matter

23 because we are in the dark. However, we do have some

24 views in principle shared by the Defence. We would

25 like to see the expert witness here in the Court, and

Page 4382

1 we would like to be given the opportunity to ask some

2 questions. Thank you.

3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. It's quite

4 sensible that it would be quite visible to call this

5 witness.

6 MR. TERRIER: Yes, Your Honour. We were not

7 able to disclose the book and the film in time. It is

8 quite a major book, a large book, not only in regard of

9 the topic but also in number of pages, and we'd like to

10 disclose the relevant chapters to the Defence, I mean,

11 the chapters which are relevant in view of our case.

12 The chapters that could be interesting for the

13 testimony of the witness. We do, like the Defence and

14 like the Court, wish to call this witness so that she

15 can be questioned by the parties and by the Court.

16 JUDGE CASSESE: Well, do disclose the

17 relevant pages to both the Court and the Defence, and

18 do produce the film, and we can already decide that

19 we're going to call this witness as a Court witness --

20 sorry, yes, Counsel Radovic?

21 MR. RADOVIC: Your Honours, if in these

22 proceedings we were to use the book written by the

23 lady, then I think that the Prosecutor cannot pick and

24 choose the pages it intends to. If they want to use it

25 as evidence, they need to give us the whole book and

Page 4383

1 then we will see whether the parts chosen by the

2 Prosecutor are really the parts that are relevant, or

3 maybe there are some other chapters in the book which

4 are equally as relevant, seen in the eyes of the

5 Defence. It's not possible for the Prosecutor to tell

6 us what's important for this case and what's not

7 important.

8 JUDGE CASSESE: We agree. Thank you. We

9 agree. You are right. I think the Prosecutor should

10 be so kind as to produce the whole book. I think

11 that's a very good point.

12 Counsel Susak?

13 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I have one

14 question regarding one witness. Since the examination

15 of the Prosecution witnesses is to be concluded this

16 week, I would like to know why a witness is not on the

17 list for the 9th of October this year.

18 On the list of 30th of the September, we have

19 a witness listed under number 6, and for the list of

20 the 5th of October we have the same witness listed

21 under number 7. On Friday we were informed by the

22 Prosecutor that the witness is here in The Hague, and I

23 would like the Prosecutor to explain what is going on

24 and whether this witness will be examined in the

25 courtroom or not.

Page 4384

1 MR. TERRIER: Your Honour, I think we have

2 the same witness in mind. Indeed, that witness was

3 scheduled on our list of last week, but then we had a

4 fresh look at the counts and the Prosecution evidence,

5 and we do not intend to call this witness at all.

6 JUDGE CASSESE: I did not quite understand.

7 This was to be number 7 on the list of the 5th of

8 October; is that right? She was a lady.

9 MR. TERRIER: Yes, indeed.

10 JUDGE CASSESE: You're not intending to call

11 her?

12 MR. TERRIER: That's right, sir.

13 MR. SUSAK: Your Honour, Mr. President, this

14 is a highly contentious issues as far as I'm concerned,

15 because I deem this witness to be very important for

16 the case if the facts are to be established correctly.

17 Since this witness is already in The Hague, and since

18 expenses have already been incurred, and in order to

19 prevent her possible return at a later date, I propose

20 that the Court call this witness as a Court witness,

21 since she's already in The Hague.

22 I have another question for the Prosecutor as

23 well. Does the Prosecutor deem that its list of

24 witnesses has been exhausted? Because we do have some

25 witnesses that we would like to propose -- that we

Page 4385

1 would like to be called as Court witnesses to be called

2 by the Court.

3 JUDGE CASSESE: As for the last question,

4 you're asking whether this is the final list of the

5 Prosecution witnesses. I assume so. The eight names

6 are there. So if there are other witness, they can be

7 called by the Defence later on when we come to the

8 Defence case.

9 We can't abuse this procedure which we have

10 actually invented, of the Court witnesses, because we

11 are stretching a little bit our Rules of Procedure for

12 the purpose of having a fair trial, and the purpose

13 of --

14 MR. SUSAK: Yes, Mr. President, but at the

15 beginning the Prosecutor listed some other witnesses

16 also as Prosecution witnesses, and that was the reason

17 why I wanted to propose that these witnesses be called

18 by the Court, because they're not accessible to us.

19 JUDGE CASSESE: Are you thinking, in addition

20 to the lady we mentioned before, are you thinking of

21 other witnesses who are on the list, on the previous

22 list and --

23 MR. SUSAK: Yes -- no, I don't mean the

24 previous list, but I mean the Prosecution list of 72

25 witnesses which they said they would call to testify.

Page 4386

1 As far as the lady witness is concerned, I

2 did not state my view on that because we have not been

3 able to examine this part of her statement, the

4 document that we received today.

5 JUDGE CASSESE: Well, I think we can't oblige

6 the Prosecution to call the witnesses selected by the

7 Defence. It is a basic right of the Prosecution to

8 call the witnesses they choose to call.

9 I'm sorry. You can call those people as

10 witnesses, Defence witnesses, and, of course, it is our

11 duty as a Tribunal to make sure they come here.

12 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President today, for me, this

13 witness, who is already in The Hague, is important for

14 me, and I would like to propose that the Court call her

15 as a witness, because otherwise, a significant

16 financial expenses would be incurred, and I think that

17 it is important for this witness to appear before the

18 Court.

19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. We will decide on

20 this matter in due course. First of all, let me ask

21 the Prosecution about their position on the possible

22 calling of this witness. This witness, I understand,

23 is still here in The Hague, the lady.

24 MR. TERRIER: In respect of this lady, yes,

25 she is still in The Hague today, and as you mentioned,

Page 4387

1 I do not think the Defence can force the Prosecution to

2 call witnesses the Defence may want to call. We do not

3 intend to call this witness for reasons we need not

4 explain here in detail. If this witness happens to be

5 useful for the Defence, then it is up to the Defence to

6 call that witness as a Defence witness in due course,

7 but we do not intend to call her because we do not

8 think that she's useful for the Prosecution case.

9 Thank you.

10 JUDGE CASSESE: We will discuss, at the

11 coffee break, this matter in depth, and then we'll come

12 back and make a ruling on this particular witness,

13 whether or not we're going to grant the motion -- or a

14 motion made by Counsel Susak.

15 I think it is now high time to move on to our

16 witness, who has to be cross-examined, I think, by the

17 Defence, and I wonder who -- Counsel Pavkovic, you may

18 be so kind as to tell us who is going to cross-examine

19 this witness, who is witness 1 on today's list.

20 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Honour, Counsel Susak

21 intends to examine the witness.

22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you

23 (The witness entered court)

24 MR. MOSKOWITZ: With regard to that statement

25 that was turned over today, we have just received word

Page 4388

1 from the investigator that, in fact, the statement was

2 never signed, it was never read back to the witness and

3 should be considered not a statement but investigative

4 notes or a -- it was not a statement signed or read

5 back to the witness.

6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. We will come back

7 to this matter later on, maybe early afternoon.

8 All right. Good morning, witness. You will

9 be cross-examined by Counsel Susak.

10 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

11 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak, not too fast

12 so that we can have a good record. Thank you.

13 WITNESS: WITNESS GG (continued)

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Susak:

15 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President. I will

16 try to do so. I will be very brief.

17 I would like the usher to show to the witness

18 the Exhibit 247.

19 JUDGE CASSESE: We are in open session. Do

20 you need to go into closed session?

21 MR. SUSAK: No, it is not necessary.

22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.


24 Q. Will you please tell us what is this?

25 A. You mean the photograph?

Page 4389

1 Q. Yes, this aerial photograph.

2 A. This is the building, the warehouse of the

3 construction material, and you can see some other

4 buildings here, some other houses. There is my house

5 here (indicating).

6 Q. Can you please tell me where is the guard's

7 booth here?

8 A. Here, right here (indicating). This is where

9 the door was.

10 Q. And where are the windows?

11 A. This is one window, and there was another

12 window on the other side (indicating).

13 Q. What about the door?

14 A. The door is here (indicating).

15 Q. Can you please indicate with a pen the

16 location of the doors and the windows?

17 A. How am I supposed to do so?

18 Q. Well, you can mark with the pen where the

19 door is, and then you can also indicate with a circle

20 where the windows are.

21 A. The window is here in the back (marks).

22 Q. Can you please mark with an arrow the

23 location of the window which is in the back?

24 A. (Marks).

25 Q. Do you know whether there were two guards on

Page 4390

1 duty or only one when this building was guarded?

2 A. There were two of them, but they were taking

3 shifts. I don't know whether the shifts lasted two

4 days or one day, and then -- I know that there were two

5 guards and they were working in shifts.

6 Q. Were they on guard duty during the night and

7 during the day as well?

8 A. No, only in the evening.

9 Q. Were they working full capacity or what was

10 the situation?

11 A. I think that they were not working full

12 capacity. Believe me, I did not have any insight into

13 their operation.

14 Q. But after -- in fact, for how long has this

15 building -- had this building been in operation?

16 A. I don't know, believe me. I think it wasn't

17 a recent thing, but I really can't give you an idea as

18 to how long it had already been working.

19 MR. SUSAK: I have no further questions.

20 Thank you.

21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Any

22 re-examination?

23 MR. MOSKOWITZ: No, Your Honour.

24 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I apologise. I

25 would like to tender this into evidence, this

Page 4391

1 photograph.

2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. No objection?

3 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I believe the photograph

4 already is in evidence.

5 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, as a Prosecution

6 Exhibit, but this is now the photograph with the

7 markings by the witness, so it's a different, in a way,

8 piece of evidence.

9 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes Your Honour.

10 MR. SUSAK: Yes, exactly.

11 THE REGISTRAR: This photograph will be

12 marked D7/4.

13 JUDGE CASSESE: So any re-examination?

14 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I guess, Your Honour, I am a

15 little confused. Because this is essentially 247 as a

16 Prosecution Exhibit, P247. It's now been transformed

17 into a Defence exhibit.

18 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. I thought we could have

19 a copy. Could you produce a different copy which would

20 be the Prosecution exhibit--

21 MR. MOSKOWITZ: 247, yes.

22 JUDGE CASSESE: -- without any marking, and

23 the one with the marking would be a Defence Exhibit.

24 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes, we can do that.

25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. If you have a

Page 4392

1 similar photograph in colour.

2 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I believe we do, or we'll

3 simply make one.

4 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. So I see there

5 are no questions from the Court.

6 Witness GG, thank you very much indeed for

7 coming here to give evidence. You may now be

8 released. Thank you.

9 (The witness withdrew)

10 JUDGE CASSESE: You intend to call witness

11 number 2; is that right?

12 MR. TERRIER: This witness did not ask any

13 protective measures. This person can be called by his

14 or her name. It will be Sulejman Kavazovic, and we can

15 be in open session.

16 (The witness entered court)

17 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. Would you

18 please make the solemn declaration?

19 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

20 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

21 truth.

22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

23 seated.


25 Examined by Mr. Terrier:

Page 4393

1 Q. Good morning, sir. To begin with, could you

2 tell the Court what your first and last names are,

3 where you were born and when you were born?

4 A. First of all, good morning. My name is

5 Sulejman Kavazovic. I was born on the 15th of July,

6 1967, in the municipality of Vitez, in the village of

7 Vrhovine.

8 Q. What was your occupation in 1992 and in

9 1993?

10 A. In 1992 and 1993 I was a member of the

11 Territorial Defence headquarters in the municipality of

12 Vitez.

13 Q. And could you specify what your functions

14 were? In that capacity?

15 A. From May 1992 until July 1992 I was a

16 military policeman in the Territorial Defence and from

17 July 1992 until 1993 I was the chief for traffic and

18 transport at the Territorial Defence headquarters.

19 Q. Where did you used to live then?

20 A. I lived in Vitez.

21 Q. Do you know the accused named Vlado Santic.

22 A. Yes, I do know Vlado Santic.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be asked

24 not to speak into the microphone?

25 MR. TERRIER: -- Court at what time, when,

Page 4394

1 and under which circumstances you got to know Vladimir

2 Santic?

3 A. Sometime in July 1992 I was arrested by the

4 Croatian Defence Council. I was brought to the Hotel

5 Vitez, and I was questioned there by Vlado Santic and

6 two other police officers. I don't know who they

7 were.

8 Q. And what was the topic of that interview?

9 A. I was questioned about the intentions of the

10 Territorial Defence headquarters and why the

11 Territorial Defence was there at all. That was the

12 general gist.

13 Q. When did you see him again at a later stage?

14 A. I saw him again on the 24th of April, 1993,

15 when the conflict between the army and the HVO broke

16 out.

17 Q. And what was your personal situation then on

18 the 24th of April, 1993?

19 A. I was a captive, a prisoner. I was taken

20 from one frontline to another, digging trenches, and

21 thus I was brought to the Bungalow where I saw

22 Mr. Vlado Santic.

23 Q. Why were you taken to the Bungalow on the

24 24th of April, '93?

25 A. I don't know why I was taken there. I know

Page 4395

1 that I was in the camp in Vitez, in the SDK building

2 where two civilian police officers and a military

3 police officer took me to dig trenches. I spent an

4 hour or two at that location, and after that those same

5 people came and took us in a van to the Bungalow.

6 Probably they needed us to dig trenches.

7 Q. Do you remember how Vlado Santic was dressed

8 when you saw him in the Bungalow on the 24th of April,

9 '93?

10 A. In 1993, on the 24th of April, I was taken

11 from trench digging at Rijeka to the Bungalow. I came

12 there with eight or nine other people who had also been

13 digging trenches at Rijeka. We came in front of the

14 restaurant which was formerly called the Bungalow, and

15 we were lined up there, me and nine other people. I

16 saw Mr. Vlado Santic there. He was wearing a black

17 uniform. And that's all.

18 Q. Could you tell us approximately how many men

19 were at the Bungalow on that day?

20 A. As far as I was able to see, 50 to 60 people

21 wearing different kinds of uniforms, belonging to

22 different units were there. I saw Military Police, I

23 saw some members of the Joker units, some of the HVO

24 members, civilian police officers.

25 Q. What were their uniforms and what weapons did

Page 4396

1 they have?

2 A. The uniforms were camouflage and black, and

3 the civilian police officers wore blue uniforms.

4 As far as their arms is concerned, they had

5 Kalashnikov rifles and they also had rifles that we

6 used to call, Argentina.

7 Q. Did Vlado Santic speak to you, and if he did,

8 what did he tell you?

9 A. He said just one word, "You again," and then

10 he ordered four of the members, two from Jokers and two

11 police officers, to take me to Kratine, to Miroslav

12 Bralo, Cicko.

13 Q. On that day, did you have the feeling that

14 Vlado Santic was a commander, had a commanding

15 situation in relation to the other men at the

16 Bungalow?

17 A. Well, I did have that impression, since he

18 issued an order to these four men to take me to Bralo,

19 Cicko. That indicates that he was in a position of

20 authority, of command.

21 Q. On that day, did you see -- did you meet

22 somebody else you knew at the Bungalow?

23 A. I saw a woman. I saw her for two or three

24 seconds. Her name was Zumra Jelaskovic.

25 Q. Did you meet other men you would know?

Page 4397

1 A. No. I knew only Mr. Ivica Markovic from the

2 civilian police. He was a colleague of mine. He had

3 brought me to the Bungalow.

4 Q. I'll ask you to look around in this courtroom

5 and to tell us whether you do recognise the person you

6 mentioned. I mean, Vlado Santic.

7 A. I do recognise him.

8 Q. Could you tell us where that person is

9 sitting in the room?

10 A. He is sitting right across from me, between

11 the two police officers.

12 Q. Could you be more specific? Could you tell

13 us more exactly where he is?

14 A. May I point at him? The gentleman is sitting

15 there (indicating).

16 Q. Could you give a physical description of that

17 man?

18 A. Yeah, sure. Well, he's sitting here. His

19 hair is receding, he has a white shirt, a blue coat

20 with a tie. Greying.

21 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I have no

22 further questions for the witness. Thank you.

23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Pavkovic, you

24 have the floor.

25 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Lordship, I do have a few

Page 4398

1 questions for this witness and Mr. Radovic too will

2 have some.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Pavkovic:

4 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, my name is Petar Pavkovic, I'm

5 a lawyer, and I should like to ask you a few questions

6 with regard to what you have just said.

7 Perhaps I could start by asking you, how many

8 times have you so far, if any, given statements to the

9 Prosecution?

10 A. About two times.

11 Q. During those interviews, did the

12 investigators ask you to describe Vlado Santic?

13 A. Why, I can't remember that. What do you

14 mean, "describe him"?

15 Q. Well, when you told them things that you

16 knew, probably they also asked you what Vlado Santic

17 looked like.

18 A. Yes, I do remember, they asked me once, and I

19 think I explained it somewhere.

20 Q. Then do you remember if, on that occasion --

21 did you describe a person as you see today in the

22 courtroom and, when asked by the Prosecution, you

23 claimed you found that it was Vlado Santic?

24 A. Well, yes, except that he wasn't so gray at

25 that time and had more weight at the time.

Page 4399

1 Q. Did Vlado Santic ever have black hair?

2 A. Yes, sir, he did.

3 Q. At that time?

4 A. Yes, at that time and before that.

5 Q. Was he 180 centimetres tall?

6 A. Well, I couldn't tell you exactly. I really

7 cannot measure them --

8 Q. No, that is not what I asked you.

9 A. Well, I am telling you --

10 Q. Well, when I ask you, it means, of course,

11 that it concerns some estimates, approximate.

12 A. Yes, approximate.

13 Q. Do you remember if, at that time, you

14 recalled some details such as, for instance, that you

15 knew Vlado's telephone number and gave the

16 investigators that telephone number?

17 A. Yes, it was in '96, '97 sometime. I remember

18 I had to call Vlado. It had to do with an uncle of

19 mine, something like that.

20 Q. Do you still remember that number today?

21 A. No. Today, I don't.

22 Q. Apart from this Vlado Santic, are there any

23 other Vlado Santics? Do you know any of them?

24 A. No, this is the only Vlado Santic I know.

25 Q. So you couldn't really recall the telephone

Page 4400

1 number that you referred to at that time?

2 A. No, no. By no means.

3 Q. But at that time, when you called Vlado

4 Santic by that number, then you talked to him, didn't

5 you?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. PAVKOVIC: I do not know whether this

8 will have any evidential value, but I should like you

9 to bear this in mind when you assess this particular

10 fact.

11 I should like to place at your disposal a

12 certificate of the Vitez post office which shows that

13 the telephone number which this witness stated was

14 indeed Vlado Santic's telephone number but not this

15 Vlado Santic which the witness indicated today but of

16 Vlado Santic, son of Jozo, from Dubravica; and

17 alongside the certificate of the relevant post office,

18 on the telephone number, it's all been translated into

19 English, and I should like to submit it also and to

20 also enclose with it work orders which show that

21 Vladimir Santic, son of Jozo, had asked for a telephone

22 line and that it was provided him on the basis of

23 relevant work orders. So that when the witness said

24 that he talked to Vlado Santic on that particular

25 occasion, it therefore arises that it could be only

Page 4401

1 this particular Vlado Santic, son of Jozo, and not the

2 accused Vlado Santic.

3 So will the usher please take over these

4 documents?

5 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, let us go back to what you

6 said today, that you spoke with Vlado Santic for the

7 first time sometime in September 1992 and that, at that

8 time, you were taken into custody at the Hotel Vitez

9 where you were then interrogated by him and two more

10 men.

11 Could you tell me how positive can you be

12 that Vlado Santic was a member of the HVO at the time?

13 A. At the time of my interrogation, I was

14 interrogated by Vlado Santic, so he must have been with

15 the HVO. He couldn't be anywhere else.

16 Q. Why is it so? Not everybody was in the HVO.

17 A. No, of course not. I mean, those who did not

18 wear uniforms, who were not in uniforms, they were not

19 either HVO or the TO.

20 Q. What did Vlado Santic do before the conflict?

21 A. He was a civilian policeman, member of the

22 civilian police.

23 Q. But at that time, was he a civilian

24 policeman?

25 A. No, he was not a civilian policeman at the

Page 4402

1 time.

2 Q. Why?

3 A. Because in Vitez, the civilian police wore

4 blue uniforms and blue caps, and at that time, Vlado

5 Santic did not wear a blue uniform.

6 Q. But if the civilian police was involved,

7 involved in something, wouldn't they have the civilian

8 clothes, as you say, that is, the police clothes?

9 A. Civilian policemen wore a policeman's blue

10 uniform, sir, throughout.

11 Q. You said that you saw Vlado Santic again on

12 the 24th of April, '93, by the Bungalow, and that at

13 that time, you established that he had black clothes on

14 him.

15 A. So he did. On the 24th of April, '93, he was

16 wearing a black uniform, the uniform that was normally

17 worn by the Jokers.

18 Q. Are you assuming that about the Jokers

19 uniform and so --

20 A. (No translation)

21 Q. How far away were you?

22 A. I was not far, a metre or perhaps two metres

23 away from him.

24 Q. Did you talk?

25 A. We were aligned -- they lined up there. We

Page 4403

1 did not talk. He was in the Bungalow and then a

2 soldier called him to come out of the Bungalow, so he

3 came out, and they lined us up on the terrace in front

4 of the Bungalow. There was this terrace. And then he

5 said "You again." And I kept silent because I had not

6 tried to speak. Then he ordered four men, that is two

7 policemen and two Jokers, who were all -- who had --

8 their heads are shaved except that they had a very

9 small strip of hair here, and he ordered them, "Take

10 them to Kratine."

11 Q. You said there were nine men. Could you give

12 us some names?

13 A. Yes. Edin Zlotrg, Jasmin Cengalovic, Adnan

14 Pilic, three, I was four, Mirsad Ahmic fifth, Samir

15 Pasagic six, and the other two, I knew their nicknames,

16 one was called Dzampo, and another one, I can't

17 remember it now. I don't know the name and the surname

18 of the last two, but we all came from Vitez.

19 Q. You said that you had a feeling that Vlado

20 was in command there, of course, when asked by the

21 Prosecution. Why did you have such a feeling?

22 A. I had this feeling because when we came out

23 on the terrace, one of them asked Vlado to come out

24 because he said, "Here is the digging team. Will you

25 come out?" And he came out of the Bungalow and he

Page 4404

1 ordered that other foursome to take us to Kratine.

2 Q. Did you know any one of that foursome who

3 were ordered?

4 A. No, I didn't know them. I know that the

5 driver was called Madzar, he was a military policeman,

6 I don't know his name, but he was the one who always

7 drove to Rijeka and back. I know they called him

8 Madzar, and he had those gloves with fingers cut off as

9 a bicycle driver. There was Ivica Markovic, who was a

10 civilian policeman and who drove me there together with

11 them, but he didn't go to Kratine together with us, he

12 went back.

13 Q. So it is only on the basis of that one

14 particular event in which you took part you concluded

15 that Vlado played a part there also?

16 A. Well, not a part, an important part.

17 Q. Right. Well, you are talking about a big

18 role, a small role, but that is not up to you to

19 assess. What I'm asking you is on the basis of what

20 did you assess that? You said you had a feeling.

21 A. Well, as I said, because orders came from

22 him. I think that when somebody issues orders, then he

23 must be responsible for things.

24 Q. You said you were with the Territorial

25 Defence headquarters so you also had some military

Page 4405

1 experience, and then I hope you do distinguish orders

2 and what kind of orders.

3 A. Yes, I do understand something about that

4 because I've been a soldier for the past eleven,

5 perhaps twelve years.

6 Q. At the time before the conflict, that is, the

7 15th of April, '93, where were you?

8 A. In Vitez.

9 Q. Where in Vitez?

10 A. In the old part of the town.

11 Q. Does the name Vlatko Males mean anything to

12 you?

13 A. Vlatko Males? Yes, of course it does.

14 Vlatko Males was a military policeman, a member of the

15 Territorial Defence, a former active JNA officer. My

16 colleague, shall we say.

17 Q. Could you say something else, something

18 more? Did you see him on that particular day, the 15th

19 of April, '93?

20 A. Vlatko Males? No, I did not.

21 Q. You did not.

22 A. No. I saw Mirko Males, his brother. I was

23 accommodated in -- right next to -- with the in-laws

24 and there was Mirko Males also there.

25 Q. On the 15th of April, '93, did you have any

Page 4406

1 arms?

2 A. No, no, I did not.

3 Q. Who else was a member of the home guards of

4 the Territorial Defence?

5 A. What do you mean, who was a member?

6 Q. You said that you were the head for the

7 traffic of the Territorial Defence. Was there anyone

8 else with you at the headquarters occupying some other

9 posts? Who was there?

10 A. There was the commander of the staff and

11 there was his deputy for logistics.

12 Q. Could you tell us who they were?

13 A. Hakija Cengic was the commander of the

14 municipal headquarters. There was deputy commander for

15 logistics, Muhamed Patkovic, and there were some others

16 but they are not relevant. Should I tell them?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. There was the commander of the Military

19 Police, Zlatko Nakic.

20 Q. And who was under you?

21 A. The driver.

22 Q. No, you mean you were on the staff of the --

23 A. I don't understand. I don't understand the

24 question.

25 Q. Did the staff exist by itself or did you have

Page 4407

1 any units?

2 A. We had 34 policemen in the staff. There was

3 Anto Furundzija, Vlatko Males.

4 Q. No, I am talking about the 15th of April,

5 '93.

6 A. Yes. Well, some ten or fifteen military

7 policemen stayed there.

8 Q. And apart from them?

9 A. Not apart from them. That's the lot.

10 Q. Do you know -- I mean, does this name mean

11 anything to you, Abdulah Ahmic, called Sudzuka?

12 A. Sudzuka? Yes, I know --

13 Q. Mustafa, excuse me. Mustafa Ahmic, called

14 Sudzuka?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. Tell me, during the first conflict on the

17 20th of October, '92, where were you?

18 A. I was in Visoko.

19 Q. Where were you?

20 A. In Visoko.

21 Q. All day?

22 A. I started that day from Visoko to Vitez to

23 report to the Territorial Defence command.

24 Q. And were you there?

25 A. Yes, I did. I went through Ahmici. The

Page 4408

1 conflict was going on.

2 Q. And was Mustafa Ahmic, called Sudzuka, at the

3 Territorial Defence headquarters?

4 A. No, he was not.

5 Q. And where was he?

6 A. He was at home, in Ahmici.

7 Q. Thank you. Where was he? Could you tell us?

8 A. He was at home, in Ahmici.

9 Q. At that time, did he have any kind of

10 communication with the Territorial Defence

11 headquarters?

12 A. Well, yes, sometimes perhaps, but I don't

13 know what you mean. He had no responsibilities. He

14 was not in command. He had nothing.

15 Q. But at that time, in Ahmici, was there a

16 radio station of a kind?

17 A. I wouldn't know that.

18 Q. Let me remind you that in answering the

19 investigators, you told them that this Ahmic was in

20 Ahmici, that he had his radio station, and that he

21 called you to ask for help.

22 A. No. He called. He didn't ask it from me

23 because I was responsible for traffic. He couldn't get

24 me.

25 Q. No, I mean the staff.

Page 4409

1 A. He said -- yes, he called the Territorial

2 Defence. He said, "My house is on fire. I need

3 help." Something like that. But I could not help him

4 and he did not ask for this help from me specifically.

5 He was asking the Territorial Defence, the commander,

6 to help him.

7 Q. Could you tell us where were you on the 16th

8 of April, '93?

9 A. Excuse me. Are you mentioning the month of

10 April because I'm not quite sure with the Croatian

11 language. I know in Bosnian it is April.

12 Q. So did you understand me?

13 A. Yes, I did understand you. I understood you

14 when you were speaking Bosnian and yet I'm not

15 protesting.

16 Q. Well, I shall try to speak so that you will

17 understand my Bosnian. So will you please tell me,

18 where were you on the 16th of April, 1993?

19 A. I was at my in-laws' place in Vitez.

20 Q. How long were you there?

21 A. Until the 18th of April, '93. I was under a

22 sort of house arrest because I could not move around, I

23 could not go out.

24 Q. In that house arrest, it was the time of war,

25 so you placed yourself under arrest because -- I mean,

Page 4410

1 you were in. Nobody put you there.

2 A. Yes, they did. They kept the buildings

3 closed. Muslims were not allowed to move about.

4 Q. But you were in a flat?

5 A. Yes, I was in the flat. I mean, no, we were

6 not allowed to go into the street whenever we liked, so

7 that there was a kind of arrest. There was the HVO,

8 the Territorial Defence were around -- around the

9 buildings, and those who came out, they took us to

10 camps, and that is what happened to me on the 18th of

11 April. A man came who took me away and all the men

12 from the building, they took us to the building of the

13 social auditing service, and that is where we were put

14 under custody.

15 Q. When you were in the Bungalow, you said that

16 when there, you saw an individual -- I'm afraid I did

17 not note the name of that person -- it was Zumra

18 something?

19 A. Yes, I saw two women. I didn't know the

20 second woman, but Zumra, as we were standing on the

21 terrace -- I'm explaining how I saw those two women.

22 We were lined up there, and I was the last one -- or,

23 rather, the first on the left side, and when we were

24 lined up, that soldier, he told us to stand one beside

25 the other and we did, and for a second, I turned my

Page 4411

1 head to the left, and behind the corner of that

2 Bungalow restaurant, those two women turned up, and I

3 just cast a look. But the soldier who was sitting

4 across from us -- there were not many of them, but one

5 of them said, "You two, back -- back off." So I

6 turned, I saw this Zumra Jelaskovic, whom I knew from

7 Vitez. She was the wife of an instructor from Vitez.

8 Q. Why is it important to mention them? because

9 you must have seen very many other things and people.

10 A. Well, yes, perhaps. But to me, those

11 women -- those women were not supposed to be there, I

12 guess. I don't know.

13 Q. Let us leave aside what you guess. You say

14 that you think there were about 50, 60 people there,

15 and you said that military and civilian police, HVO --

16 where were all those people? Did you count them?

17 A. Well, I did not count them. I said

18 approximately.

19 Q. But were they lined up?

20 A. No, they were sitting, sitting down. They

21 were in uniforms, they had weapons.

22 Q. Where were they sitting?

23 A. They were sitting in the parking lot of that

24 restaurant.

25 Q. In one place?

Page 4412

1 A. No, no, in a circle. There were about 50 or

2 60 -- I did not count them, really -- but about 50 or

3 60, three types of uniforms, camouflage, black, and

4 blue, of the civilian police. They were sitting there

5 chatting. And after a while -- I really don't know

6 what they were doing there, but there were that many.

7 Q. How many times did you see Vlado Santic?

8 A. Do you mean the whole period of time?

9 Q. No, I mean on that particular occasion.

10 A. Well, then, only then, for about a minute,

11 minute and a half.

12 MR. PAVKOVIC: All right. Thank you. Your

13 Lordships, I have no further questions.

14 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic?

15 MR. RADOVIC: Sir, I have more questions, and

16 I intend to be quite exhaustive about the Territorial

17 Defence and the like. Perhaps it would be an

18 appropriate time to take a break?

19 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Before we take a

20 break, I wonder whether Mr. Moskowitz could be so kind

21 as to indicate to us the date of the interview on that

22 document which was distributed before, because now it's

23 only the 31st of July, 1st of August. There is no

24 year. The Defence counsel may wish to know the full

25 date.

Page 4413

1 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes. The information we have

2 from the investigators was 1996.

3 JUDGE CASSESE: 1996. All right. Thank you.

4 We will now adjourn for 30 minutes.

5 --- Recess taken at 10.55 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.

7 JUDGE CASSESE: Since the witness is not

8 here, I'll read out the ruling we have made in the case

9 raised this morning by Counsel Susak.

10 The Court considers that the Prosecution is

11 fully entitled to decide, for reasons that it does not

12 need to explain to the Defence and the Court, not to

13 call a witness previously listed as a Prosecution

14 witness. Whenever the Prosecution takes such a

15 decision, if the Defence intends to call the witness,

16 it may do so at a later stage, in the course of the

17 Defence case. The witness would then be called as a

18 Defence witness. In that event, the Court will assure

19 that he or she is brought to The Hague to testify.

20 However, in this instance, the Court

21 considers that it is faced with exceptional

22 circumstances that warrant a departure from the

23 aforementioned principle.

24 The witness is currently in The Hague, having

25 been brought here by the Prosecution as a prospective

Page 4414

1 witness. It might prove difficult or inexpedient to

2 recall her to testify at a later stage. In addition,

3 this witness might provide exculpatory evidence.

4 The Court, therefore, holds that it is in the

5 interests of fairness and justice to call the witness

6 now, in the course of the Prosecution case. On the

7 strength of Rule 54, the Court does decide to call the

8 witness as a Court witness, and instructs the Victim

9 and Witnesses Unit to bring the witness to court this

10 afternoon. She will be briefly examined by the Court,

11 then cross-examined by the Prosecution and re-examined

12 by the Defence.

13 (The witness entered court)

14 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic.

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Radovic:

16 Q. Thank you. Please tell me, at the

17 Territorial Defence staff in Vitez, you were in

18 charge -- there was also the security sector?

19 A. That's very likely, but I was in charge of

20 the transport and traffic.

21 Q. As a person in charge of traffic and

22 transport, you were a chief. Did you have meetings of

23 all the chiefs?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. At those meetings, did you see a person -- an

Page 4415

1 officer in charge of security?

2 A. I was in logistics. There were no security

3 officers in logistics.

4 Q. But there is a person in charge of the

5 security in the staff, and the person in charge of

6 security, the security officer, is concerned about

7 everything, including logistics?

8 A. I had a colleague -- actually, there was an

9 officer who was above me.

10 Q. So you were not directly subordinate to the

11 commander, to the Chief of Staff?

12 A. No.

13 Q. So there was a person who was between you and

14 the Chief of Staff?

15 A. Yes. There was a person who was in charge

16 between me and the logistics.

17 Q. Are you aware of the fact that before the

18 16th, that is on the 15th, the Territorial Defence

19 staff was provided information by the security officer

20 that a great danger was imminent?

21 A. I don't know about the security officer, but

22 you could see that in the town.

23 Q. No. What I'm interested in is whether the

24 Territorial Defence staff, located at the time in Stari

25 Vitez, had been warned that serious danger was

Page 4416

1 imminent?

2 A. I'm not aware of that.

3 Q. Do you know that due to possible danger, it

4 was decided that members of the Territorial Defence

5 staff should spend the night, from the 15th to the 16th

6 of April, at the staff premises?

7 A. Well, I for one did not spend the night

8 there.

9 Q. How come, if you were a member of the staff,

10 that you were not informed of that?

11 A. I gave you the reason. I was in the

12 logistics staff.

13 Q. So you don't know anything about this.

14 You said that you have been in the army for

15 quite some time. I assume that you served in the JNA

16 before the BH army?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. What was your rank when you left the JNA?

19 A. Lieutenant.

20 Q. At this time are you an officer?

21 A. Yes. I'm an officer of the BH army, and I

22 have the rank of First Lieutenant.

23 Q. What are you in charge of? Are you still in

24 the logistics branch?

25 A. I'm at the joint command of the army. I'm in

Page 4417

1 charge of transport and traffic.

2 Q. On the eve of the 16th, do you know whether

3 the Territorial Defence in Stari Vitez and around Stari

4 Vitez ordered some trenches to be dug?

5 A. No. I worked on the 15th when the

6 Territorial Defence staff was formed. Pero Skopljak

7 and others attended that meeting. They were invited to

8 be there when the Territorial Defence was formed. That

9 was celebrated at the day of the Territorial Defence.

10 Q. I did not ask whether that was dug on the

11 15th of April, I'm just asking whether there were any

12 trenches dug before that in the Vitez area?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you know that?

15 A. I personally did not see any trenches,

16 because I went to the part of the town with the

17 majority of the Croatian population and I would have

18 seen some trenches there.

19 Q. Would you have seen them if you travelled on

20 the road?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. But could you see other trenches dug in other

23 places? Are you able to say that on the basis of your

24 own perception?

25 A. I did not see any trenches.

Page 4418

1 Q. Can you now tell me, the feast of Bajram on

2 the 19th -- in 1993. It was on the 22nd and 23rd of

3 March, 1993. Do you know where this was celebrated in

4 Stari Vitez?

5 A. No. I was in the camp. I couldn't know.

6 Q. Well, the 22nd and 23rd of March.

7 A. I don't know about that. I don't know where

8 it was celebrated.

9 Q. Did you not hear that the feast was

10 celebrated in the fire-fighting brigade centre?

11 A. No, I did not know that.

12 Q. Did you not celebrate Bajram in that year?

13 A. No.

14 Q. What was Sefkija Didic's function in the

15 Territorial Defence staff?

16 A. He was the commander of the Territorial

17 Defence staff.

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises,

19 did not hear the name of the person replacing-- whom he

20 replaced.

21 MR. TERRIER: Mr. Radovic is broaching

22 questions which were in no way raised during

23 examination-in-chief. In the present case, this cannot

24 be motivated by the desire to assess the reliability of

25 the witness. I am perfectly aware of the fact that the

Page 4419

1 Court can grant some questions outside the scope of the

2 examination-in-chief, but if this is justified, if this

3 is the view of the Court, then it means that

4 Mr. Radovic should have less leading questions to put

5 to the witness.

6 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic, you heard

7 the objection from the Prosecutor. We are wondering

8 about the relevance of your questions, because he's

9 right there, the Prosecutor is right that you -- in

10 saying that you are going beyond the matters raised in

11 examination-in-chief. Could you point to the relevance

12 of your questions for your case?

13 MR. RADOVIC: The question concerning the

14 Bajram in Stari Vitez will form a part of the Defence

15 of the accused. We can say that at this stage, since

16 we are now approaching the end of the Prosecution case,

17 his Defence will be that he was on friendly terms with

18 the Muslims up until the very last minute -- that's the

19 part of the indictment concerning persecution -- and

20 that on the night of the 22nd to the 23rd of March, his

21 folklore group danced Croatian and Muslim folk dances

22 at the party, at the celebration of the feast of Bajram

23 at the fire brigade centre of Stari Vitez. That is in

24 the area controlled by the Muslims.

25 I am asking this question -- in fact, I

Page 4420

1 should ask this question of every Muslim who appears

2 here, since do I not know which of the witnesses

3 attended that celebration of the feast of Bajram and

4 which one was able to see the Kupreskic brothers dance

5 in celebration of Bajram. Because if it is claimed

6 that they are engaged in the persecution of Muslims,

7 then it can only concern the one day, the day of the

8 16th. But if the indictment covers a longer period, we

9 have to prove what their conduct was throughout that

10 period.

11 The point is it is very hard for us to come

12 into contact with Muslim witnesses, and in my view -- I

13 don't know if you will share this view with me -- you

14 will give greater weight to confirmation of Muslim

15 witnesses if they say what -- in what way the Kupreskic

16 brothers treated them. So that was the reason I asked

17 this question.

18 As far as the Territorial Defence is

19 concerned, he was on the staff of the Territorial

20 Defence and I'm just trying to determine what he knows

21 about the organisation.

22 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, we consider that your

23 questions are relevant. You may proceed. Although

24 they go beyond the matters raised in

25 examination-in-chief, they are relevant so you are

Page 4421

1 allowed to continue.

2 MR. RADOVIC: I have concluded the matter of

3 Bajram. I have a few more questions about the

4 Territorial Defence. We have already heard about that

5 from other witnesses, but since he has first-hand

6 knowledge, having been in the organisation, maybe he

7 can tell you something about this.

8 Q. When did you join the staff, and whether at

9 that time it was a joint body of Croats and Muslims, or

10 was it separate right from the start?

11 A. I became a member of the Territorial Defence

12 staff on the 22nd of May, 1992. The staff was formed

13 by a joint command, Croat and Muslim in the town of

14 Vitez. It was in the premises of the Minister of the

15 Interior.

16 Q. You don't have to go into such detail. Can

17 you please tell us when the two separated?

18 A. It was sometime in August when Anto

19 Furundzija and the other gentleman left the Territorial

20 Defence staff, the other Croatians.

21 Q. And when did the Territorial Defence staff

22 move to Stari Vitez?

23 A. When the first conflict broke out on the 21st

24 of October, 1992, when we were surrounded by the HVO,

25 and when the HVO simply evicted us from the buildings

Page 4422

1 because they considered themselves to be the only armed

2 force. They were stronger. There were only about 35

3 of us. In Vitez there were many units which were the

4 not from the Vitez municipality but from Mostar or from

5 Siroki Brijeg, for instance.

6 Q. Can you give us more concrete details?

7 A. For instance, the Ludvig Pavlovic unit from

8 Mostar. They had the HVO patches with the laurel

9 leaves. They also captured me on that very day, the

10 22nd of October, and brought me to Vitez.

11 Q. Tell me, when the Territorial Defence staff

12 moved to Stari Vitez, did the staff have some kind of a

13 base or were there just people? What I mean is did

14 they have any units of which it was in charge?

15 A. No. No, it did not have any units. There

16 were about 20 people on the staff. We did not move.

17 We had been evicted. They allowed us to leave through

18 the town centre, but when we started leaving they

19 arrested us.

20 Mr. Vlado Santic should know that, he was

21 present at the time.

22 The commander and three or four other men

23 were allowed to move to Stari Vitez.

24 Q. But when the staff moved to Stari Vitez, did

25 they have any arms at their disposal?

Page 4423

1 A. I don't know. I was arrested. I spent four

2 days in the Ministry of the Interior, in detention.

3 Q. But after that, when you were released, you

4 went to the Territorial Defence staff?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. And I would like to know whether you had any

7 weapons.

8 A. There were some automatic rifles, 10 or 12

9 military police officers were there. I did not have

10 that information at my disposal, as far as I know.

11 Q. As regards the 20th of November, you don't

12 know anything about that?

13 A. The 20th of November?

14 Q. 1992. Apology. I meant the 22nd of

15 October.

16 A. I don't know what you mean.

17 Q. I'm referring to the roadblock.

18 A. I was at the staff, at the headquarters, but

19 I heard about the roadblock.

20 Q. Did you hear who ordered the roadblock to be

21 set up?

22 A. No. I have no idea. A roadblock was set up

23 by the HVO and another roadblock by the Territorial

24 Defence.

25 Q. Do you know who manned the roadblock, who

Page 4424

1 ordered the roadblock to be set up? You don't know

2 anything?

3 A. (No audible response)

4 Q. Please tell me, do you know anything about

5 the formation of the 325th Mountain Brigade?

6 A. I was in the Territorial Defence staff.

7 Q. And the Territorial Defence and the brigade,

8 that is two separate matters?

9 A. Yes, but before the Territorial Defence was

10 set up, the Territorial Defence staff was in charge of

11 the Territorial Defence units on the ground.

12 Q. Units? Well, was there an organisation

13 structure of the Territorial Defence on the ground?

14 A. Let me tell you one thing, I can -- I was in

15 the town. I was not allowed to go around, because I

16 was given orders by the chief for logistics.

17 Q. Did you hear about the formation of this

18 Mountain Brigade?

19 A. No, I did not hear about that.

20 MR. RADOVIC: I have no further questions.

21 Thank you.

22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel Radovic.

23 Any re-examination?

24 MR. TERRIER: I would have no further

25 questions for this witness. However, in respect of the

Page 4425

1 documents submitted by Mr. Pavkovic earlier on, I do

2 not think that they could be usefully tendered into

3 evidence inasmuch as we do not have -- I don't mean the

4 originals, I'm not asking for the originals, but we do

5 not have copies of the Bosniak or Bosnian versions so

6 as to verify the authenticity or the conformity of the

7 translation into English.

8 On the other hand, these documents, according

9 to me, only prove this: That the son of Jozo, Vlado

10 Santic, had a telephone line, the number of which is

11 given, and that on the 27th of October, 1994, somebody

12 rang him. I do not see how this piece of information

13 is connected to our case and could be in any way useful

14 to the file in this case.

15 So failing any other information from

16 Mr. Pavkovic, we oppose this document being tendered

17 into evidence.

18 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Actually, I was also

19 wondering why we had not been provided with a copy of

20 the original in Bosnian Croatian.

21 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I do not have

22 the original at this time. I don't have it here, but I

23 do have it elsewhere. I can submit the original both

24 to the Chamber and to the Prosecution. In fact, it was

25 by mistake that I don't have this original, because I

Page 4426

1 actually thought that you would be able to understand

2 what this is all about on the basis of the

3 translation.

4 What I wanted to prove, let me remind you,

5 this witness claimed that he had talked to Mr. Santic,

6 and he said that he knew the phone number well. I just

7 wanted to point out that he talked to -- he may have

8 talked to Mr. Vlado Santic but not to this Mr. Vlado

9 Santic here, because according to the documents I

10 submitted, that phone number belongs to Vlado Santic,

11 but another Vlado Santic whose father's name is Jozo.

12 So if it is true that he had talked on this

13 telephone, as he has claimed, then he could only have

14 talked to somebody else. So these documents are

15 relevant to what this witness stated.

16 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Indeed, I had already

17 noted that in the document, the statement dated the

18 26th of January, '97, which are the notes taken by the

19 investigator, at page 7 of the English, a phone number

20 is indicated as being the phone number of the accused

21 Vlado Santic, and it corresponds to the phone number

22 which appears in your document. So I see your point.

23 But I wonder whether Mr. Terrier can set out

24 his position on the relevance. As for the original, of

25 course, we need the original. We can't admit this

Page 4427

1 document into evidence without having the original. We

2 can wait until you produce the original.

3 But Mr. Terrier may have comments.

4 MR. TERRIER: The only comment is as

5 follows: I would have liked the witness to be asked to

6 give an explanation as to his relationship with that

7 other Vlado Santic. If I understand the Defence

8 properly, Vlado Santic was one of the persons he talked

9 to on the phone, but I think this question could be

10 asked of the witness, and I will ask the question

11 myself.

12 Re-examined by Mr. Terrier:

13 Q. Mr. Witness, did you know Vlado Santic, son

14 of Jozo, who lived in Donja Dubravica, and what was

15 your connection with that individual, if you knew him

16 at all?

17 A. I would like to explain this whole case

18 involving the telephone conversation between Vlado and

19 myself. I think that Vlado should know this very well.

20 The telephone conversation was with Vlado

21 Santic, I don't remember when it was, but if Vlado

22 wants to confirm that, he will be able to say that it

23 was with this Vlado Santic that I spoke. I don't know

24 any other Vlado Santic.

25 Another point: No Muslim works in the Vitez

Page 4428

1 post office, and thus we cannot confirm whether this

2 was all done regularly, whether this document is, in

3 fact, true. Since Vitez is under the control of the

4 Croatian authorities and since the Muslims are not

5 allowed to even go into the post office, you should

6 verify the stamp. If it has the federal stamp, then I

7 agree with this document; and if the stamp is not

8 federal, then we cannot really accept this.

9 JUDGE CASSESE: This will be for the Court to

10 decide on this matter. We will, of course, duly verify

11 whether this document -- on the basis of the original,

12 whether it is authentic or not.

13 MR. TERRIER: Yes, Your Honour. Let me point

14 out very briefly that through these documents, if they

15 were to be confirmed with the original, the number, the

16 telephone number, well, we know that number, we know

17 who is the owner of that line, but Mr. Pavkovic could

18 give us further explanation. It doesn't say who is the

19 person who subscribed to that line and who is the

20 calling number, unless I have failed to examine this

21 properly. But I'm sure that the Court will give the

22 appropriate weight to this document.

23 I have no further questions for this witness

24 whom I thank for coming to testify in this court.

25 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Pavkovic?

Page 4429

1 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, as you can see,

2 I did not submit only the certificate, I also supplied

3 some other documents indicating the whole process of

4 introducing the telephone line. You have the work

5 order, when the telephone user submitted his

6 application for the telephone line, and in the end, you

7 have the certificate that this telephone line belongs

8 to Vlado Santic, son of Jozo from Dubravica, and I

9 think that's sufficient. I can't see why the

10 Prosecutor, in addition to the objection that I should

11 also submit the original, which I admit is correct, why

12 is he continuing to object?

13 JUDGE CASSESE: The Prosecutor is not -- he

14 is simply stating that we need the original and, in his

15 view, this document is not relevant.

16 I have a question relating to this matter for

17 the witness.

18 Mr. Kavazovic, in a statement you made in

19 January '97 to one of the Tribunal's investigators, you

20 indicated that you knew the phone number of Mr. Vlado

21 Santic, and you gave a number which, according to the

22 Defence, corresponds to the phone number of another

23 gentleman having the same name, another Vlado Santic

24 who is son of Jozo Santic.

25 Can you explain this contradiction; namely,

Page 4430

1 that you gave a phone number which actually corresponds

2 to somebody else? Did you call that phone number?

3 A. Your Lordship, I really do know who I talked

4 to and I did talk to Vlado Santic on that occasion. As

5 far as I know, I recognise his voice, and he knows what

6 we talked about. After all, he's here, so why don't

7 you ask him?

8 JUDGE CASSESE: I'm afraid that we can't ask

9 him. Thank you. All right. So there is no

10 objection -- at some stage, we should try to depart

11 from the practice of not asking questions -- I know we

12 can't. But I hope, as I say, that Defence counsel,

13 when we come to the Defence case, may decide to call

14 the accused as witnesses on their own behalf. It could

15 be of great interest and a great contribution to

16 justice and truth.

17 No further questions?

18 Mr. Kavazovic, thank you for coming here to

19 give evidence in court. You may now be released.

20 Thank you.

21 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.

22 (The witness withdrew)

23 JUDGE CASSESE: I wonder whether the

24 Prosecution could now call the next witness, No. 3. I

25 think he is not a protected witness, [redacted], then,

Page 4431

1 in the afternoon, and as soon as we are finished with

2 [redacted], we can call the lady we mentioned this

3 morning.

4 But I see Counsel Pavkovic has a question or

5 comment.

6 MR. PAVKOVIC: Excuse me, Your Honours. I

7 merely wanted to refer to the notes which the

8 Prosecution submitted to us, and that is the

9 investigator's notes after the interview with the

10 witness of the list of 5th of October, 1998, No. 6 -- I

11 mean Witness No. 6, if I understood the Prosecution

12 counsel properly. Could we question this witness

13 regarding the circumstances referred to in these

14 notes? If it is true, what the Prosecution claims,

15 that this is a note from the Prosecutor's Office, that

16 is the note of the 31st of July and 1st of August, when

17 an investigator talked to this witness, and we should

18 like or, rather, I, as counsel for Vlado Santic and my

19 learned friend Susak, would like to state the

20 following:

21 If the Chamber decides that these notes are

22 also of probative value and that they could help to

23 arrive at the truth and satisfy justice, then we should

24 like this statement, the source has been confirmed, we

25 should like this statement to be included in the

Page 4432

1 evidence for the Defence, and if the Court deems that

2 it would not be enough, then we should like to suggest

3 that we call in the investigator who authorised these

4 notes. In other words, we do not think that witness

5 needs to be subjected to cross-examination on this

6 matter.

7 This is our proposal, and why, if I may add,

8 why do I think that this document does have some

9 probative value in the eyes of the Defence? Well, it

10 really rests with the fact that, according to the

11 notes, it says here that the witness told the

12 investigator, with regard to the accused Vlado Santic,

13 that having taken away her husband, and Zeljo Livancic

14 came also back with him -- came with him -- came back

15 with him together. And as far as I remember, it was

16 said here in court that only Zeljo came back.

17 Now, in the view of the Defence, it is a

18 crucial moment, and that is why we believe that it is

19 valuable as evidence. It has some probative value.

20 As regards Drago Josipovic, in this statement

21 it is said that Drago Josipovic -- what is said about

22 Drago Josipovic also deviates from the earlier

23 statement of the same witness, and for this reason, we

24 wish to submit this witness statement as an exhibit for

25 the Defence.

Page 4433

1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. What is the

2 position of the Prosecution?

3 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I think the problem that we

4 see with that is that this is not, in fact, a witness

5 statement, but, according to the investigator, was

6 never read back to her and was never signed by her and

7 cannot be viewed as a statement by this witness. It is

8 perhaps a recording of some sort to indicate a

9 conversation between this investigator and this

10 witness, but the accuracy of it I think is difficult to

11 determine given the fact that it was never read back to

12 the witness.

13 Now, if there is a question as to whether, in

14 fact, this was a signed witness statement, then we

15 could certainly obtain an affidavit from the

16 investigator and submit that to the Court to establish

17 the circumstances around which these notes were taken

18 so that would be satisfactory to the Defence and to the

19 Court as to whether or not this is, in fact, a signed,

20 read-back statement, and we would be happy to provide

21 that to the Court and to the Defence as soon as

22 practicable. But to introduce this into evidence as a

23 statement of the witness I think would not be fair to

24 the witness since it, in fact, was never read back to

25 her and she never signed it and never affirmed that

Page 4434

1 these were her words. So we would not agree that this

2 should be admitted into evidence.

3 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. What about the

4 suggestion of Counsel Pavkovic that the investigator,

5 the particular investigator who questioned this

6 witness, could be called to give evidence?

7 MR. MOSKOWITZ: We don't feel that that would

8 be necessary. We could obtain an affidavit from that

9 investigator to set forth the circumstances of the

10 statement, and perhaps that would be sufficient for the

11 Defence and for the Tribunal to make a decision on

12 this. Of course, if Defence counsel wants to call a

13 witness in its case, it, of course, is entitled to do

14 so, and that would include investigators for the Office

15 of the Prosecutor, but I would anticipate that would

16 not be necessary.

17 JUDGE CASSESE: We consider that this is not

18 a witness statement, as was rightly pointed out by the

19 Prosecutor, so it cannot be admitted into evidence, and

20 we would like to again comply with the suggestion made

21 by the Prosecutor that the investigator, [redacted],

22 should be asked to submit an affidavit. In the light

23 of that affidavit, the Defence counsel may decide to,

24 at a later stage, call this investigator to give

25 evidence in court. In any case, we do not intend to

Page 4435

1 call back the Witness EE. We feel that she has already

2 given evidence, and we are satisfied that this is

3 sufficient.

4 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Your Honour, with regard to

5 the next witness, this witness has, in fact, requested

6 protective measures, and I regret that you were not

7 notified in advance of that.


9 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes. And the reasons will

10 be, I think, clear during the first couple of questions

11 which I would request be done in closed session.

12 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. We can -- so you

13 can bring him in now, but with the agreement and the

14 understanding that in the afternoon, as soon as we are

15 through with this witness, we will move on to the other

16 one, the lady who will be called by us.

17 MR. TERRIER: In respect of this other

18 witness, Your Honour, who is now a Court witness, has

19 it been clearly established that since she is a Court

20 witness, the Prosecutor, who had planned to call her,

21 can no longer have any contacts with her? I think that

22 is clear. And this being so, I think it would be

23 appropriate for the Victims and Witnesses Unit to

24 inquire as to the protective measures possibly required

25 by the witness.

Page 4436

1 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, I was planning to call

2 the head of the unit to ask him to take all necessary

3 steps so as to ensure that the witness be here this

4 afternoon.

5 MR. TERRIER: Thank you very much, Your

6 Honour.

7 JUDGE CASSESE: I have just received a note

8 to the effect saying that this witness will be ready to

9 testify as of 2.00 this afternoon. The head of the

10 unit, the Victims and Witnesses Unit, is giving me this

11 note, corroborating how efficiently this unit can work.

12 It is for you to call the -- because we have

13 still -- we have 15 minutes. Why don't we -- oh,

14 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac?

15 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, we do

16 not know how long the Prosecution will question this

17 witness, but the witness is very important for us

18 because it is related to another witness whom we

19 already heard. If this witness is scheduled for 14.00,

20 the question is whether there will be time for both the

21 examination-in-chief and cross-examination and

22 re-examination. So perhaps it will be better to begin

23 at 2.00 with this particular witness, and that witness

24 to call after her because this is the Witness No. 3

25 from the list. Because as far as I understand, you

Page 4437

1 intend to complete the questioning of this witness.

2 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry, I am not very clear.

3 Are you suggesting that we should now start -- the next

4 witness should be the lady we were mentioning before,

5 the Court witness, who would come here --


7 JUDGE CASSESE: -- and after that, the

8 present No. 3. This is your suggestion?

9 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Quite. Because this is

10 a very important witness for us, I mean, the

11 cross-examination is very important, and I think the

12 Prosecution can finish completely to hear both this

13 lady witness and the cross-examination of that witness,

14 and it is very important for us.

15 JUDGE CASSESE: Since I understand we could

16 not start right away with the lady witness, we have to

17 go back to our previous list and then start now with

18 No. 3, and then we will finish but you will have, of

19 course, all the time necessary to cross-examine this

20 witness as well as the other one, and if we need more

21 time tomorrow morning, I hope that the lady may stay on

22 one more night. Thank you.

23 So shall we start then? Shall we move on to

24 Witness No. 3?

25 JUDGE CASSESE: What sort of

Page 4438

1 protection? Pseudonym?

2 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Face and name protection,

3 Your Honour, and I would request that the first several

4 questions be done in closed session and then we can go

5 to open session shortly thereafter.

6 JUDGE CASSESE: Let's go into closed session

7 right away. We are in closed session. It is HH?

8 (closed session)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4439













13 Page 4439 redacted – in closed session













Page 4440













13 Page 4440 redacted – in closed session













Page 4441













13 Page 4441 redacted – in closed session













Page 4442

1 (Open session)


3 Q. Now, could you, Witness HH, tell us whether

4 you came to Central Bosnia in late April or early May

5 of 1993?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. Could you tell us why you arrived in Central

8 Bosnia at that time?

9 A. We had received reports that an atrocity had

10 occurred in Central Bosnia, and we were requested to

11 conduct a fact-finding mission for the Special

12 Rapporteur Tadeusz Mazowiecki.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Please make pauses between

14 questions and answers.

15 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I'm sorry, I will slow down.

16 Q. Could you tell us a little more specifically

17 perhaps what your objective was in travelling to

18 Central Bosnia for the Human Rights Commission?

19 A. We were requested to do a fact-finding

20 mission. In fact, we were requested to do an

21 investigation by British battalion, the European

22 Community, a number of other players. However, we were

23 not qualified and did not have the mandate to conduct

24 what would be considered an investigation other than a

25 human rights fact-finding investigation.

Page 4443

1 If I could just point out one thing which

2 would be the difference between a criminal

3 investigation - according to our mandate - and a human

4 rights investigation. As a human rights officer, we

5 were looking for the responsibility of local

6 authorities or governments, if you will, not individual

7 perpetrators. So the fact-finding mission would

8 include a general situation and a basic report to what

9 had happened in whatever situation we were required.

10 For the most part, those investigations would be

11 following legal issues, not necessarily criminal acts.

12 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us with whom you

13 travelled to Central Bosnia at that time?

14 A. With my colleague Payam Akhavan.

15 Q. Do you recall approximately when you arrived

16 in Central Bosnia and where you went on that day?

17 A. We left Zagreb on the 30th of April, 1993,

18 travelled to British battalion near Vitez on the 30th

19 via Kiseljak. We were, in fact, picked up at Kiseljak

20 by the mail patrol from British battalion.

21 Q. Before I proceed further, you had mentioned

22 earlier that before travelling to Central Bosnia, you

23 had received word of an atrocity there. Were there any

24 particular villages or towns that were named as perhaps

25 being the subject of an atrocity?

Page 4444

1 A. Yes. We were specifically told the village

2 of Ahmici.

3 Q. Now, after you arrived in the area, at the

4 British camp or BRITBAT camp near Vitez, do you recall

5 what you did on the following day?

6 A. On the following day, the 30th, or would this

7 be the 1st?

8 Q. The first full day you were there.

9 A. Well, we did arrive late on the 30th; in

10 fact, it took all day to travel. It wasn't very easy,

11 in 1993, to move around Bosnia. The first date -- on

12 the first -- well, we were briefed by British

13 battalion. They were in the process of rotating

14 between the Cheshire regiment and the Prince of Wales',

15 and so we joined in a regular briefing for the benefit

16 of the Prince of Wales', basically dealing with road

17 maps and a situation report, at which time we had asked

18 if we could go to the village of Ahmici just for an

19 initial contact. We had never seen the village

20 before. And we were told that if we join a patrol,

21 that we would be given that opportunity, which we did.

22 Q. Could you recall for us where you went on

23 patrol that day and what your impressions were?

24 A. We covered quite a bit of territory. I think

25 that we were probably in the tank -- actually, they had

Page 4445

1 opened the hatches, so we were riding -- so that we

2 could view the area from the back of the tank.

3 We probably travelled around for about, I

4 would say, maybe two and a half, three hours, and we

5 had a brief stop in the village of Ahmici. I don't

6 even recall if we actually went into the village

7 itself. We may have. But it was -- this patrol was

8 for the benefit of the incoming battalion; it really

9 wasn't geared at showing us the village of Ahmici. It

10 was a stopover. We had no communications with the tank

11 commanders or the driver that would indicate -- at one

12 point, someone just pointed out and said, "This is the

13 village of Ahmici."

14 Q. Did you form any quick impressions about

15 Ahmici that first day?

16 A. Not really, no. I wouldn't say any

17 opinions. There was still some smoke in the area, but

18 no, not any special opinion, no.

19 Q. Do you recall speaking with Payam Akhavan

20 sometime that day or that night, and discussing how you

21 would divide up responsibilities?

22 A. We needed to do two things. That first day

23 really didn't work for us at all. We needed to get

24 more attention from the officers of British battalion

25 to assist us. We wanted to go to the village. We

Page 4446

1 wanted to find some of the survivors from the village

2 of Ahmici, but the battalion and the officers, they

3 were very busy. They did not have a lot of time for

4 us, and certainly they weren't able to just assign

5 officers to us.

6 So what we decided to do was to split up and

7 have -- it was agreed at that time that Payam, Payam

8 Akhavan, my colleague, would stay with British

9 battalion because they have considerable knowledge on

10 the area and of the events of the 16th of April, and

11 try to learn as much as possible from the officers and

12 the soldiers as possible.

13 I would attempt to find the survivors, which

14 I had an indication were in Zenica, or there was a

15 group that was in Zenica.

16 Q. And as part of the reason for dividing those

17 duties the way you did, would part of that reason be

18 your language skills?

19 A. Yes, absolutely. Yes.

20 Q. Did you, in fact, go to Zenica on the

21 following day to try to find some of the survivors from

22 Ahmici?

23 A. Yes, I did. British battalion had a regular

24 shuttle between the battalion headquarters and the

25 Hotel Internacional in Zenica.

Page 4447

1 Q. And did you, in fact, locate the -- some of

2 the survivors from Ahmici?

3 A. Yes, I did. In Zenica I was able to obtain

4 information that there was a number -- I wasn't

5 certain, but I was told that there was a number of

6 survivors in the cinema across the river.

7 Q. Can you tell us what this cinema was or is?

8 A. The cinema. I arrived, I would imagine,

9 sometime around 11.00, 10.30-11.00, and approached the

10 building itself and there were people outside the

11 building, just sort of walking around, and I asked if

12 there were any survivors from Ahmici immediately to

13 some of the people who were standing outside.

14 Q. And what were you told?

15 A. Well, actually taken. My initial contact was

16 just someone who I don't, know who was there, said that

17 he knew of some survivors and directed me into the

18 cinema itself, and so I followed this person or

19 persons, there was actually quite a few people at that

20 point, into the cinema itself, and found that there

21 were perhaps as many -- there was several hundred

22 people in the cinema, in the hallway, as well as

23 sleeping between the rows and in the aisles of the

24 cinema itself. It was very dark. I was directed to a

25 couple of rows in the lower part.

Page 4448

1 I actually went down one of the aisles and

2 met with some people. It was completely dark. It was

3 something that wasn't going to work.

4 I was about to strike up a conversation when

5 I asked this individual, "Is there a room? There has

6 to be someplace where I can meet these people. There's

7 no way I can talk under these conditions."

8 So we immediately left, and a few minutes

9 later someone produced a key to a room that was just

10 off of the cinema some -- I don't know, a room of some

11 kind.

12 Q. And did you try to make use of that room in

13 talking to some of these survivors from Ahmici?

14 A. Well, the individual that appeared with the

15 key, I introduced myself. While we were standing, I

16 tried to introduce myself to a group of people that had

17 already collected. You know, many people, maybe 30,

18 maybe 40. I displayed my ID card.

19 The displaced persons were quite hostile

20 towards me. I wasn't really accepted. I showed -- I

21 displayed my ID, and I explained to them I'm with the

22 Centre for Human Rights, and that I speak the language

23 because I had lived in Belgrade and that I'm here with

24 the Mazowiecki team.

25 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you.

Page 4449

1 Mr. President, I notice the time is a little

2 past our usual lunch-hour.

3 JUDGE CASSESE: Shall we now adjourn until

4 2.00? We stand adjourned.

5 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.38 p.m.





















Page 4450

1 --- On resuming at 2.03 p.m.

2 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon.

3 Mr. Moskowitz.

4 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 May I proceed, Mr. President?

6 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, please.


8 Q. Now, Witness HH, we left off this morning

9 with your description of the cinema on the second full

10 day that you were in the area of Central Bosnia, and

11 this is the cinema in Zenica. You were describing how

12 some of the survivors of Ahmici appeared to be hostile

13 towards you. Could you elaborate on that a little

14 bit? How do you know they were hostile towards you and

15 what sorts of things were they doing?

16 A. Maybe the word "hostile" isn't appropriate.

17 I wasn't accepted, in other words. You have to

18 understand that these people were being housed in very

19 bad conditions. The -- most of them were in shock, and

20 I represented, for whatever reason -- my belief is that

21 they thought that I represented the International

22 Community, and they were asking -- they were saying,

23 "Why you are you coming now? Where were you to save

24 us? Why now? Why? We won't even talk to you, it's

25 completely irrelevant." That's what I meant with

Page 4451

1 hostility. They didn't necessarily want to talk to

2 me.

3 The other thing is I didn't approach this

4 right. There were too many people there in the hallway

5 as well as -- as we started to move towards this small

6 room, and I wanted to focus on what had happened in

7 Ahmici, and I wanted to talk to individuals from

8 Ahmici. However, there were people from all over

9 Central Bosnia there, and so I was trying to ask

10 smaller groups if they were from the village of Ahmici

11 or if they knew who was from the village so I could get

12 people from Ahmici to talk to.

13 Q. Were you at all successful in being able to

14 talk to specific individuals and obtain a coherent

15 picture of what happened in Ahmici on that day?

16 A. No, no, not really. Not really. I was able

17 to talk to a number of people. I was actually

18 bombarded with information. There was a -- at one

19 point everyone was almost talking at the same time. I

20 was not controlling the situation.

21 Q. Despite the fact that this situation was not

22 conducive for obtaining coherent information, do you

23 recollect that you did, in fact, get some information,

24 and if so, could you tell us what that was?

25 A. I had -- I had a basic understanding. When I

Page 4452

1 left the cinema, I had a basic understanding of what

2 had transpired. I knew bits of information. I knew,

3 for example, that there had been an attack, that it

4 started early in the morning. Little bits of

5 information.

6 I can't really put it together, because after

7 that point I had gained so much more information. I

8 really don't know exactly what I had that first day,

9 but lots of little bits of information.

10 There were several individuals that wanted to

11 talk to me. There were two or three that I had

12 intended on somehow getting back to them and finding

13 those particular individuals, because they seemed to --

14 well, one, they were from the village. A lot of the

15 people I was talking to on the first day were not from

16 the village, were not in any way witnesses but had

17 second, third, fourth-hand information. So that

18 situation wasn't working out at all.

19 Q. Now, that night, I take it, you returned to

20 the BRITBAT base near Vitez?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. Did you meet up with Payam Akhavan that

23 night?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Did you speak with him?

Page 4453

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What did he tell you?

3 A. He had a fruitful day with the battalion. He

4 was able to talk to several officers that had been on

5 patrol in Ahmici the day -- on the 16th of April. He

6 had touched on a lot of the issues regarding how the

7 chain of command worked, who the patrols would report

8 to, and had a basic understanding on how British

9 battalion operated, which was very important for us to

10 understand how they would be in a position to help us.

11 Q. Did you, at that time, begin to feel a need

12 that you yourself needed to go to the village and

13 inspect the village more carefully before speaking to

14 victims and survivors of Ahmici?

15 A. We had -- Payam and I discussed that we

16 should request directly that we be provided with

17 assistance to visit Ahmici.

18 Q. Did you make such a request of BRITBAT and

19 was it accepted?

20 A. Yes. We made the request to operations or to

21 a higher ranking officer, and they told us that they

22 would organise something for us.

23 Q. And on the next day, the next full day, did

24 you, in fact, go to Ahmici with BRITBAT in support?

25 A. Yes. The following morning we were assigned

Page 4454

1 a detail, two vehicles, and they were basically put at

2 our disposal.

3 Q. Now, behind you, Witness HH, is Exhibit P2,

4 which is a blow-up of the village of Ahmici. Could you

5 look at that and tell us, if you might, and demonstrate

6 for us where you went in Ahmici that day with BRITBAT.

7 I'm hoping there's a pointer there.

8 A. Can I turn that map? Is that appropriate?

9 No, the actual map.

10 Q. I think the witness is more comfortable with

11 the map in a different --

12 A. I'm sorry. This is the way I remember the

13 roads.

14 Q. And I might point out that for reasons that I

15 still haven't understood, north on this map is always

16 on the bottom instead of at the top, and now the way

17 the map is arranged for this witness it is more towards

18 the top, so I can understand why it is more easily

19 understood by this witness in this configuration.

20 Is this better for you?

21 A. Yes, yes. This is how I remember it.

22 Q. Using the pointer you have in your hand, and

23 you can extend it so it's longer, can you demonstrate

24 for us how you approached the village of Ahmici on that

25 day and what route you took into the village?

Page 4455

1 A. I think we were -- we were locked in, for the

2 most part, until we arrived at the village. We had

3 agreed with the tank commander, or the person that was

4 put in charge of our security and escort, that we would

5 start in an area where British battalion had collected

6 a number of bodies, and that would be in this location

7 here (indicating).

8 Q. That would be directly across from the

9 cemetery on there?

10 A. Yes. Yes, directly. We started there, and

11 actually left the vehicles. There was a reason for

12 that.

13 Q. What is that reason?

14 A. The evening before, we had discussed with

15 British battalion and Payam had gained some information

16 that a number of bodies had been collected by British

17 battalion. And by that not a specific number, but over

18 20 or 30 bodies had been discovered and a number of

19 them collected by British battalion, as well as some

20 locals were seen by British battalion, and that was in

21 this area (indicating).

22 What was important about that, is it was

23 brought to our attention that most of the wounds that

24 were reported to us by the individuals who collected

25 the bodies, is that they had single or perhaps two

Page 4456

1 bullet wounds, but mostly single, a single shot through

2 the head and neck.

3 That gave us an indication that perhaps we

4 would be looking for sniper positions, and that's why

5 we began in this area, to see if we could identify any

6 sniper positions that might have been utilised.

7 Q. And did you find any indications of such

8 positions --

9 A. Well, we found certain positions. We don't

10 know if they would be sniper positions. We found

11 firing positions, and the only reason we could describe

12 it as such is that we found a larger -- or groups of

13 spent cartridges in an area -- actually in two areas.

14 I'm not really clear on this map, but there was a

15 feature, I would imagine right about here (indicating),

16 or it could be this feature. It's where the ground --

17 well, yeah, it would be right about here. The ploughed

18 or flat area then took a small ditch here, and also

19 just around this area next to the road.

20 Q. And what did you find in those areas?

21 A. Spent shell casings.

22 Q. Were you told what kind of shells these were

23 by the British soldiers that were with you?

24 A. We asked. They didn't look like the standard

25 AK-47 shell. I'm not an expert in it. We picked up a

Page 4457

1 shell casing because they looked a bit larger than the

2 regular shell casings, and they said this probably from

3 a higher -- or a more powerful weapon than the AK-47.

4 Q. Where else did you go in the village that

5 day, or where did you go next?

6 A. We wanted to continue on the field but we

7 were warned that there could be unexploded ordinances

8 or perhaps mines, so we basically remained on the road

9 and walked in this direction.

10 Q. You're pointing to the main road?

11 A. Yes, this is the main road.

12 Q. Did you see anything of interest while you

13 walked along the main road?

14 A. We walked up to this house. I believe it's

15 either this one or this one, I'm not sure if that was

16 really a house -- yeah, it would be. It's the first

17 house off the field. We walked up to a destroyed

18 home.

19 Q. And did you notice anything interesting about

20 that house?

21 A. Nothing special. We did find a -- we did

22 find a burnt flag in front of one of the homes. It was

23 taken by one of the soldiers.

24 Q. What kind of flag was that do you remember?

25 A. I'm not sure if it could be called a Muslim

Page 4458

1 flag, but it was a green flag with Arabic writing on

2 it. I'm not really sure what the flag represents.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. But it was a flag. It was -- there was no

5 question about that.

6 We then boarded the vehicles and headed up --

7 we actually spent some time here (indicating), actually

8 in the vehicles looking around a bit. We then

9 continued up the road to -- well, I think that we first

10 went all the way up the village, turned around and then

11 continued down the road. We wanted to have a view. I

12 think the intent was to get an idea of how many homes

13 there were. We received information that there were

14 approximately 180 homes, and that they were all

15 destroyed. We weren't really interested in counting,

16 but just an idea to be able to say that for the most

17 part the homes were destroyed.

18 Q. And did your observation bear that out --?

19 A. Yes, they did.

20 Q. -- that for the most part the homes were

21 destroyed?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were all of the homes destroyed or were some

24 of the homes left intact?

25 A. No. We also heard, the day before, that we

Page 4459

1 would find, on the left-hand side on the main road

2 going to Ahmici, a number of homes that were untouched.

3 Q. And did your observations bear that out as

4 well?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you know what kind of homes were left

7 intact?

8 A. We were told that these would be Croat

9 homes.

10 Q. Did you have an opportunity to examine some

11 of these homes and looking around the areas of these

12 homes, determine whether there was anything of interest

13 that you saw?

14 A. We had intended to actually go to those homes

15 and to talk to anyone that we could find there.

16 Q. These would be now -- you're referring to the

17 Croat homes that were untouched?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. With respect, first of all, however, to the

20 Muslim homes that were destroyed, did you have a sense

21 of how they were destroyed, and did you find any

22 evidence in the vicinity of those homes that you can

23 share with us?

24 A. Well, we had -- we parked -- well, we didn't

25 park. The soldiers parked their vehicles somewhere

Page 4460

1 around here, just by the -- just by a destroyed

2 mosque. I guess that's it right there. So we first

3 walked down this road, visited, I would imagine that it

4 was this house here, or it could be this one. I think

5 it's the first house down the road. I don't know if

6 these are connected, but the first house down the road,

7 and -- well, one of the things that was striking is we

8 found a number of shell casings in front of each home.

9 Some marks from bullets being fired at the homes. They

10 were certainly gutted by fire. In fact, that first

11 home was still smouldering, at least in the basement.

12 Well, actually, at that first house we

13 noticed a bag, a travel bag in front of the house, just

14 between the house and a garage that some things had

15 been thrown inside. We didn't want to touch the bag,

16 because we were basically instructed by the soldiers

17 not to touch anything, but there was something very

18 distinct inside the bag, which is an ID card, which is

19 a very important document. So I retrieved this

20 document from the bag as carefully as possible and took

21 it with me.

22 Q. Why did you take that ID --

23 A. I don't know. It's -- it's a very important

24 document, and I don't know, I thought I would return it

25 to the owner somehow. I don't know.

Page 4461

1 Q. Now, a moment ago you said that you did

2 intend to try to speak to some of the Croat people who

3 were still in the village. Did you, in fact, attempt

4 to carry out that plan while you were in Ahmici that

5 day?

6 A. We had been told that -- by the survivors

7 that we had found in Zenica that all of the Muslim

8 homes had been destroyed and that the Croat homes were

9 untouched. This is how it was relayed to me.

10 We wanted to be able to confirm that by

11 speaking to someone or going up to one of the homes,

12 which we attempted to do.

13 Q. And what happened as you attempted to do

14 that? Did you see anything of interest as you

15 attempted to do that?

16 A. We -- the homes were in this general area

17 here, and we were off on the road. It's probably this

18 field here if there's a fence. Yes, probably this

19 field here. We noticed a woman and two children

20 walking down a path by the tree-line, coming obviously

21 from one of those homes. So rather than walk to one of

22 the homes, we decided we'll just cross the field and

23 speak to them.

24 Q. And were you able to speak to this woman?

25 A. No. No, we were not.

Page 4462

1 Q. What prevented you from doing that?

2 A. We were fired upon.

3 Q. How many shots were fired at you, if you can

4 recall?

5 A. There was first a single shot that told us

6 that there's something not right about this, and there

7 was certainly a second shot that was in our

8 direction -- I think it makes a very characteristic

9 sound when someone shoots at you -- and we fled to the

10 vehicles that were parked here, roughly here. I think

11 all in all perhaps four shots that I recall. I would

12 say four.

13 Q. Was anyone injured from this shooting?

14 A. Yes. One of the soldiers from -- I think

15 from the second vehicle was hit in the back.

16 Q. Do you know if that was a serious strike or

17 was it --

18 A. He -- I actually saw this individual later.

19 It was deflected off of a bullet-proof vest, but,

20 nevertheless, left a mark on I think his left-hand

21 shoulder.

22 Q. And you left in a hurry?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Let's go to the next day. Having now visited

25 Ahmici and seeing the village in some more detail, what

Page 4463

1 did you then decide to do that day, the next day?

2 A. That evening, the evening -- that evening we

3 sat down and we reviewed what we had seen. I had some

4 information that I'd gained the first time I was in

5 Zenica, and a lot of this was confirmed, but I couldn't

6 remember -- I couldn't remember who told me that, so my

7 intention was to now try to locate certain individuals

8 who had relayed certain messages or this information to

9 me to get down to business and really establish some

10 facts.

11 Q. So did you, in fact, go to Zenica that day?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you take that ID card with you that you

14 had found in Ahmici?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Did that ID card provide to be quite useful

17 when you returned to the cinema?

18 A. Interestingly, yes. It provided proof that

19 I'd been to the village of Ahmici.

20 Q. And why was that important?

21 A. Maybe it wasn't important. I just -- we had

22 a better reception the following day than I had the

23 first time I visited Zenica.

24 Q. Would you describe for us in a little more

25 detail the situation as you found it, and the reception

Page 4464

1 that you received the second day at the cinema?

2 A. First of all, it's important to -- that I

3 tell you that there weren't as many people the second

4 time. The -- I don't know if it was the time of day or

5 why, but there were certainly -- there was half the

6 people there in the centre than there was the first

7 day.

8 We entered into the cinema and asked to speak

9 with some of the people that we had talked to -- that I

10 had talked to the first day, and I also had this ID

11 card and I said, "Do you know where this person is?"

12 And I spoke to someone there who said, "No, but I can

13 find her and I will deliver the ID card," which I did.

14 But this ID card became something very

15 important to them. It was proof that I'd been to the

16 village. Not that it established any proof, but that's

17 how it was perceived.

18 Q. And by the way, did you go back to the same

19 room at the cinema that you had used the day --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. -- the day before?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Approximately how many people do you think

24 were in the room as you began to talk to these people?

25 A. Well, first there was a number of people who

Page 4465

1 wanted to enter the room, and I asked to speak to only

2 people from Ahmici. So, in fact, I was able to exclude

3 a few people from the room because I wanted to

4 concentrate only on Ahmici. So I would say between 12

5 and 15, and a number of children as well, 4 or 5

6 children, 4 children.

7 Q. Did the situation involving yourself and

8 these survivors from Ahmici in that room, was that a

9 situation that you can describe as one in which you

10 were interviewing them, or was it, at least initially,

11 a kind of exchange of information between you and them,

12 a much more informal kind of situation?

13 A. No. I think when the people realised I'd

14 been to the village they were very interested to know

15 what I'd seen, and I spent the better part of two hours

16 explaining to them what I had seen. They were very

17 quiet. They asked very simple questions: "Did you see

18 my house?" "Did you see this street?" "Did you see

19 any bodies?" Questions like that.

20 Q. You mentioned there were some children in the

21 room while these questions were being asked.

22 Approximately how many children and how were they

23 sitting or where were they in the room?

24 A. We were sitting on a table, and there was a

25 billiards table -- there was a covered table, either a

Page 4466

1 billiards table or a ping-pong table that was covered.

2 So I was sitting at a table next to the wall,

3 and I had two or three people sitting, maybe three or

4 four standing, and the children were sitting on the

5 table facing.

6 Q. Were you comfortable with the situation, that

7 there were children in the room?

8 A. No, I was not.

9 Q. Why not?

10 A. The questions were getting -- I think the

11 first time I reacted is the questions were getting very

12 much, "Did you see my husband's body?" and I was

13 uncomfortable with that with the children there.

14 They -- they were just sitting there, and they were --

15 it just made me feel extremely uncomfortable. It's

16 difficult to describe.

17 Q. Do you recall one of the children speaking up

18 at one point?

19 A. When we were discussing some of the houses, I

20 had mentioned that I had been to a house and described

21 the house and a garage, and this was supposedly a

22 mechanic's house, or maybe not -- I'm not really

23 sure -- but a young girl jumped off the table and came

24 straight to me and asked me if I had seen her father in

25 front of the garage, at which point I told her that I

Page 4467

1 didn't. She repeated to me the question, she said,

2 "How didn't you see him? He was lying right there in

3 front of the garage." And -- yeah.

4 Q. Did you know her name?

5 A. No, no.

6 Q. How old was she; could you take a guess?

7 A. Twelve. Eleven, twelve.

8 Q. Now, at one point, did you begin to focus on

9 a particular individual and begin to ask that

10 individual some questions about what had happened in

11 Ahmici?

12 A. There was a lady that I had noticed on the

13 first occasion, she was very outspoken, and I had

14 learned that she was the administrator or receptionist

15 or dealt with the archives, I'm not really sure of her

16 position, but she worked in the local clinic, and I

17 actually asked for her when I came into the cinema. I

18 think she was the first person that I wanted to talk

19 to.

20 Q. Did you, in fact, speak to her?

21 A. Yes. She was present.

22 Q. Did you come to learn her name?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. What is her name, as far as you know?

25 A. Her last name is (redacted)

Page 4468

1 Q. As you spoke to her, did you take notes?

2 A. Yes, some.

3 Q. Do you know what's happened to those notes?

4 A. They weren't really detailed notes. I wasn't

5 planning on filing these notes or anything like that.

6 They were really for my use to provide a report to the

7 Special Rapporteur, but, yes, I was taking notes.

8 Q. Do you know where those notes are now?

9 A. No. No, I do not. We had no -- in the

10 Centre for Human Rights, we had no procedure to file

11 notes per se. In fact, we weren't instructed to take

12 statements or anything like that. We were told to do a

13 fact-finding mission and to report our findings to the

14 Special Rapporteur in the effort to have a proper

15 inquiry into the situation. What my boss or the

16 Special Rapporteur could provide was a political outlet

17 for such information that may convince a government, an

18 institution or so on, to conduct a full-scale

19 investigation. My job was to report to this

20 individual.

21 Q. So you were not doing a criminal

22 investigation, nor were you --

23 A. No.

24 Q. -- trying to take interviews in a criminal

25 case.

Page 4469

1 A. If I may add something?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. I think that this is one of the great

4 frustrations that we had in the Centre for Human

5 Rights, and I also believe that this is -- if I may? --

6 this is what brought about even the creation of the

7 ICTY, was the frustration of not being able to

8 investigate crimes.

9 British battalion, to my understanding, was

10 not in the position, according to their mandate; the

11 European Union was not in the position to investigate

12 alleged atrocities; we certainly were not in the

13 position to investigate. We could do fact-finding.

14 And it was -- it was the intention of the ICTY to bring

15 this information to light and to only hope that we

16 could get a proper inquiry put together.

17 Q. Now, at some point did you decide to try

18 something perhaps a little unique or different with

19 this particular person you were talking to in terms of

20 preserving a statement?

21 A. She had -- the administrator I'm speaking

22 about -- she had a wealth of information, but I was not

23 interested in getting all the details. At the same

24 time, I thought that what she had to say was extremely

25 important, and I felt, well, I don't want to miss this

Page 4470

1 opportunity to take down some of this information.

2 At the same time, I wanted to get -- I wanted

3 to speak to as many people as possible and to get

4 different information on different areas in the

5 village. So I had a dictaphone with me and I thought

6 that it might be an idea to give it to her and ask her

7 to tape her statement, to basically -- what she wanted

8 to tell me, to put down on the tape machine. This

9 would then assist me in providing information further

10 on down the line.

11 Q. Did you, in fact, give her this tape machine?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. What instructions did you give her when you

14 gave the tape machine to her?

15 A. I told her that "I need to move on," but that

16 I think that what she has to say is very important, and

17 I said, "If you speak into this tape recorder, it will

18 take down whatever you say," and if she wanted to do

19 that? And she agreed. I switched it on -- she was

20 right next to me on the table. I switched it on and

21 she asked me, "What do I say?" I said, "Start with

22 your name and then try to focus on what happened that

23 day, and that's it. Just speak and just let it flow."

24 Q. What were you doing while she was speaking

25 into that tape machine?

Page 4471

1 A. I was talking to others in the room.

2 Q. So I take it you were not listening to her as

3 she spoke into the tape machine?

4 A. Not really. She was very close to me. I

5 mean, I could hear her speaking, but I wasn't paying

6 particular attention, no.

7 Q. And about how long did she keep that tape

8 machine before she returned it to you?

9 A. A half an hour or so? Approximately a half

10 an hour. I mean, it's -- I'm not really sure if she

11 even ran the course. Maybe 15 to 20 -- maybe half an

12 hour. I'm not really sure.

13 Q. When she returned it to you, what happened to

14 the tape machine at that point?

15 A. Well, when she had finished, she came to me

16 and said that she had finished and I switched it off,

17 but there was an individual that, in my opinion, was in

18 shock. She, as I say -- a thin lady, blondish hair,

19 standing -- she was staring at me the whole time. She

20 never really asked anything. She asked for the tape

21 recorder and said, "I want to make a statement," and

22 asked for it, and I said, "Okay," switched it on and

23 provided it to her as well.

24 Q. Have you come to know that lady's name, the

25 thin lady who took the machine?

Page 4472

1 A. I believe that that is [redacted].

2 Q. Do you recall how long she had the tape

3 machine?

4 A. Very short, very shortly. I don't know why

5 she took it in the first place, but she -- a few

6 minutes, maybe seven to ten minutes maximum -- not even

7 that, maybe seven minutes or so. I don't think that

8 she, in the end, thought it was as easy. I believe

9 that she wanted very much to talk to me but couldn't --

10 couldn't get through and that this would be a way to

11 say what she wanted to say.

12 Q. Now, when was the first time you actually

13 listened to that tape?

14 A. Probably in Zagreb or maybe later on that

15 day, but -- I think -- I think later in Zagreb

16 probably, two, three days later perhaps.

17 Q. After you returned from Bosnia?

18 A. I believe so, yes.

19 Q. What was the quality of the tape when you

20 listened to it?

21 A. Very poor.

22 Q. Could you elaborate?

23 A. There was a lot of background noise. It was

24 a very bad idea to begin with because I had to really

25 fight to hear every word that was on there, and there

Page 4473

1 are great gaps in the sentences.

2 Q. So you could not hear every word on the tape?

3 A. No, no.

4 Q. What has happened to that tape; do you know?

5 A. I don't know what happened to that tape.

6 Q. You don't have it any more?

7 A. No, I do not have that tape.

8 Q. Did you attempt to get information off of

9 that tape in some way?

10 A. Yes, I did. When we returned to Zagreb, we

11 received an indication that a proper inquiry would be

12 conducted, so apart from writing the report and

13 submitting the report to Mazowiecki, I was looking to

14 provide some information for future investigators that

15 we had hoped would come to the field.

16 Q. So how did you use that tape in compiling

17 this report, if you used it at all?

18 A. I didn't really use the tape to compile the

19 report at all. That was -- that was much later,

20 actually. I listened to the tape, certainly, but

21 realised that it was useless, and we compiled the

22 report basically from notes and from recollection.

23 Q. Did you prepare, perhaps for your own use or

24 for the use of anyone else, a kind of -- sort of

25 memorandum that preserved in some form the gist of the

Page 4474

1 information that both you found on the tape, given the

2 difficulties you had in --

3 A. I was -- I was preparing to do so, and there

4 was a document, a transcription/translation that I was

5 preparing, but it was never sent. It stayed -- it just

6 stayed with the files.

7 Q. Do you have that document?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, could you tell us what you recall from

12 your conversation with, first of all, (redacted)

13 of course, you can use the memorandum that you prepared

14 to refresh your recollection if you need to do so.

15 A. Well, it was -- first of all, it was very

16 difficult to transcribe and to translate. I had to go

17 back many times to get the information. But it

18 basically told of the killing of her husband as well as

19 how she was able to escape the situation; in fact, how

20 she was helped by HVO soldiers to leave the area.

21 Q. HVO soldiers to leave the area?

22 A. Yes. At one point, if I'm not -- I have it

23 here. Near the end, there's a -- or it could be a

24 friend or an acquaintance.

25 No, I confused that. A name is mentioned, a

Page 4475

1 name is mentioned, of the individual who helped her and

2 her two children go to a collection point of other

3 survivors from Ahmici.

4 Q. As you're looking at this memorandum that you

5 have, does it indicate in there that she named any

6 people who were at her house when her husband was

7 killed?

8 A. Yes, she does.

9 Q. What are the names that she mentioned or that

10 you recall her mentioning and that you included in this

11 memorandum?

12 A. Well, she has a number of names here. She

13 has Alilovic Stipo, known as Brcko, Josipovic Drago,

14 Santic Drago, Alilovic -- no, that's the same name.

15 That's repeated again. She has [redacted], Papic

16 Anto, and the Papic home is mentioned.

17 Q. Now, when you are speaking about the Papic

18 home, would that be where she indicated or your notes

19 indicate she had said she was taken?

20 A. This is -- for the most part, this is what

21 was on the tape that I could gather. As I said, this

22 was not intended to be a statement as such. This was

23 to be starting information for -- to hand to another

24 individual or an investigator, and it's basically what

25 came from the tape as well as some recollection of what

Page 4476

1 she had told me.

2 Q. Although I believe you said that there were

3 large parts of the tape you couldn't hear or make out

4 or transcribe?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. In fact, the memo appears to end in

7 mid-sentence; is that right?

8 A. There was a lot more than this. I mean, this

9 tape went on much longer than this and -- it does. But

10 at one point, the lady must have moved away from the

11 microphone to a position where it really became useless

12 to even try. I think, in the beginning, she was more

13 focused and closer to it, but at one point, that was

14 it. It was useless to continue.

15 Q. Now, you also mentioned a second lady,

16 Sadeta. What do you recall her saying? If you could

17 summarise using the memorandum you prepared to refresh

18 your recollection?

19 A. It's the same thing. She's the second

20 person. She actually -- I did not intend to tape a

21 statement at all, but she asked for the tape recorder,

22 so I gave it to her, and she once again describes the

23 murder of her husband.

24 Q. This is the woman who you said looked to be

25 in shock when you spoke to her?

Page 4477

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Looking at your memo, is there any indication

3 that she made or named any names of people who were

4 responsible for what had happened in her house?

5 A. No, she did not.

6 Q. Did you specifically ask her to make sure she

7 put in names into her account?

8 A. We never really asked for names. As I said

9 in the beginning, we were not interested in individual

10 perpetrators. That was not our job. We were

11 interested to know and, for example, this person, I'd

12 be interested if she would be a good witness for the

13 future should there -- should an investigator -- so

14 that I could direct that person to her. That's what I

15 was more interested in with these notes.

16 Q. Now, towards the end of the day, did you

17 speak to some of these people and make a specific

18 request of them, something more concrete, something

19 that you could really use?

20 A. Well, I had -- we had been to the village the

21 day before, and in my mind, we needed to have something

22 concrete in terms of a description. Yes, it was as

23 they described, all the homes in the village were

24 destroyed except for a few, they were gutted by fire,

25 et cetera, et cetera. However, the people in the room,

Page 4478

1 they were witnesses, and I knew that but I needed to

2 confirm that.

3 I then asked for very -- at one point -- by

4 this point, I had been talking to them for over three

5 hours, and I said, "You must help me. I need to find

6 some concrete evidence that I can prove that what

7 you're saying is true." And I asked, "I need to

8 speak -- who here is an eyewitness who can --" not the

9 ones from earlier but something specific. And some

10 individuals came forward.

11 Q. Did you receive some concrete examples, and

12 if so, could you tell us what they were?

13 A. I received three, what I would call "leads"

14 at that point. There was one, it was the house across

15 from the mosque where the individual that was in the

16 room believed there were eight persons in the

17 basement -- eight people in the basement that she had

18 seen enter but not leave.

19 There was a lady that -- it was difficult.

20 At one point I stood up and -- standing in place. But

21 when I stood up, she came to me and wanted to talk only

22 to me, and she told me that her child had been killed

23 by gunfire through the doorway, or through the window,

24 and that she had wrapped her child in a blanket and

25 placed the child behind the door of her home. She

Page 4479

1 described the home to me, and I was very focused on

2 finding that home.

3 The third was, at the time, not very

4 important to me because it was second-hand

5 information. I was told that there was a man in the

6 Zenica hospital who was seriously injured and that he

7 had witnessed the killing of his son, his

8 daughter-in-law, and their two children, that the house

9 number was number 5 and that I will find probably the

10 bodies in the second room where this person had told

11 her they had been shot.

12 Q. Do you know which person told you about House

13 number 5 at the cinema?

14 A. No. No, I do not. But if I may?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. This was -- this was at a time when I

17 realised that I had to go, and I knew that we'd get an

18 opportunity to go back, and I wanted to look for

19 specific cases, so I put these three together on a

20 piece of paper just -- you know, just short notes on

21 what to look for because I believed that (1) they would

22 describe the individuals that I would find inside of a

23 home rather than outside of a home, which is very

24 important because we didn't see any bodies outside of

25 any of the homes.

Page 4480

1 Q. Then did you formulate a plan to return to

2 Ahmici the next day to try to substantiate some of

3 these claims?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you, in fact, go to Ahmici the next day

6 along with BRITBAT support?

7 A. Yes, we did. However, it wasn't in support

8 of our fact-finding mission.

9 Q. Would you tell us why BRITBAT was in Ahmici

10 with you that day?

11 A. BRITBAT was escorting, I believe, four, or it

12 could be even five, European ambassadors who were

13 deployed to -- I assume also to look at the village of

14 Ahmici. I'm not really sure. But they were -- the

15 British battalion was escorting them that day, and we

16 were told that we could come along and we could do our

17 search then.

18 Q. Was the media there, by the way, on that day?

19 A. There was media there, yes.

20 Q. Were they normally there where the -- well,

21 who did they normally follow around, the media?

22 A. I really wouldn't know who they normally

23 followed -- they certainly didn't follow us. There

24 were ambassadors; these were high-ranking individuals

25 that were visiting the area. I think that they were

Page 4481

1 following them.

2 Q. Could you tell us what you did in Ahmici that

3 day in your attempts to substantiate these claims that

4 you had heard at the cinema the day before?

5 A. Well, we were transported to the village

6 together with the ambassadors and, at this point, a

7 very high level of security that was provided for the

8 ambassadors. I was able to convince a number of

9 soldiers that they should assist me on the spot to look

10 for these three locations.

11 The first location, according to the

12 description that I had received, was the house right

13 across from the mosque.

14 Q. This would be the house where the person felt

15 there may be eight or so bodies in the house?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. What did you see or find when you arrived at

18 that location across from the mosque?

19 A. I actually saw that location when we were

20 driving by, and according to the description that was

21 given to me, it would have been almost impossible for

22 us to go into the basement because the house had

23 completely crumbled in on itself and there were maybe

24 two walls standing, but it looked like a very dangerous

25 situation, so I felt that it would be impossible to

Page 4482

1 attempt to go into the basement without engineers going

2 in first.

3 Q. What was the second house you tried to find?

4 A. That was a great disappointment because I had

5 the description of the home but I didn't have the -- I

6 couldn't find the area of where this home was located.

7 I had a general idea of where it would be, but I -- I

8 didn't have a house number, I didn't have off of which

9 street and so on, and it could have been any. I had

10 the description, but, of course, the rubble did not

11 match the description of these homes. So I then

12 decided to go for the last one, the last description,

13 which was House number 5.

14 Q. Did you immediately find House number 5?

15 A. No. I knew the general area because it had

16 been described to me, but it was not easy -- it was not

17 easy to find. In fact, we were very pressed for time

18 because Colonel Stewart of the British battalion was

19 ready to move on.

20 Q. And, in fact, were you about ready to move on

21 when you yourself asked for some favour from the

22 Colonel?

23 A. Yes. Yes, I did. I asked Colonel Stewart --

24 I believed that we could find the house in question,

25 and this was very important for us, this was the

Page 4483

1 confirmation that we were looking for, and I asked him

2 for five more minutes. Actually, in a bit of

3 desperation, I ran -- one of the soldiers told me that

4 we were going to be moving soon, and so I ran from one

5 location down to sort of the crossroads to the Colonel,

6 asked him for five more minutes, he said, "Right. We

7 will be moving on, but I'll give you, you know, a few

8 more minutes," at which point I returned to the same

9 place where I was looking for House number 5 and,

10 fortunately, some soldiers had then located this house.

11 Q. Can you point out on that map behind you

12 where House number 5 is?

13 A. House number 5 is in this general area, and

14 if I'm not mistaken -- off this road, here. It would

15 be right about here. This one or this one

16 (indicating). Right around there -- just a moment.

17 Split, up this road, up this road. Yes. I believe so.

18 Q. In that general vicinity?

19 A. Excuse me?

20 Q. In that area?

21 A. Yes. It's -- can I stand? No. Okay. It's

22 one of these here. It's one of these here. You know,

23 this photograph, it's difficult. It's difficult.

24 Q. Could you tell us what you did and what you

25 saw when you found House number 5?

Page 4484

1 A. Well, I was looking in another area there,

2 and the word was basically shouted that they had found

3 House number 5, so I went in that direction. The

4 Colonel -- Colonel Stewart and the ambassadors had

5 already entered the house seconds before I did, and I

6 entered the house as well.

7 Q. What did you see when you entered the house?

8 A. It basically was as was described to me, that

9 I would find a room immediately to the right and

10 another room straight on through the door, through a

11 doorway.

12 Q. Do you remember the condition of the house

13 when you saw it?

14 A. It had been gutted by fire.

15 Q. Did you see any human remains in the house?

16 A. Yes, we did.

17 Q. What did you see?

18 A. We -- I saw what appeared to be two -- one

19 was definitely human remains, it was a backbone, a

20 charred backbone in the centre of the room, and what

21 could have been remains which -- someone would need to

22 basically confirm that because there wasn't much left

23 of a remain in the corner of this room.

24 MR. MOSKOWITZ: At this time, with the

25 permission of the Court, I would ask that previously

Page 4485

1 admitted Exhibit video P83 be played and shown to the

2 witness so that he can confirm that this was the house

3 he entered and perhaps make some commentary as he looks

4 at the video?

5 (Videotape played)

6 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I think we can stop the video

7 here. That's fine.

8 Q. Is that the House number 5 that you were in

9 on that day?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 Q. Now, that evening when you returned from

16 Ahmici, did you have any kind of conversations with

17 BRITBAT officers about what had been found in House

18 number 5?

19 A. Yes. It was -- basically I explained to the

20 Colonel as well as to the chaplain that I was looking

21 specifically for that house and I should be able to

22 determine the names of the -- the remains of the

23 bodies -- the remains that were found in the house.

24 Q. How did you expect to be able to identify

25 those remains?

Page 4486

1 A. Because I had been told by an individual the

2 day before -- actually, that's how I learned of House

3 number 5. I spoke to an individual who indicated

4 basically everything about House number 5 and that the

5 witness to what had happened there was a gentleman that

6 was in the Zenica hospital seriously injured.

7 Q. By the way, were you aware that some of the

8 British soldiers were quite upset at what they had

9 seen?

10 A. In my conversation with the chaplain, the

11 chaplain confirmed to me that it would be a very good

12 idea if I could, in fact, find the names of these

13 individuals and that -- that we -- that I would do my

14 best to locate the family so that they could provide a

15 proper burial.

16 Q. By the way, were you running out of time at

17 this point in your visit?

18 A. We were scheduled to leave the next day.

19 Q. What did you do the next day, the day that

20 you were scheduled to leave, in an attempt to identify

21 these bodies?

22 A. I took the patrol, or the shuttle to Zenica,

23 the regular -- from British battalion to Zenica,

24 returned to the cinema to try to find this individual

25 who had relayed this message, could not find her, and

Page 4487

1 then took a taxi to the Zenica hospital.

2 Q. And what did you do when you arrived at the

3 Zenica hospital?

4 A. Well, I entered the hospital and I tried to

5 find this individual. I didn't have his name. I knew

6 that I was looking for an individual who had been

7 seriously burned, and so I was asking people in the

8 hall where I could find this individual. See, I was

9 extremely pressed for time, and I'd already wasted a

10 lot of time by going to the cinema. So I was trying to

11 get to this individual as quickly as possible.

12 Q. Did you find him?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. And could you describe where he was and what

15 he looked like?

16 A. I spoke to an orderly or a physician, I'm not

17 sure, a man in a white coat, and asked for this person,

18 and he directed me to a room where I found the

19 individual in question, together with a number of

20 family members, including children.

21 Q. And could you describe the condition this man

22 was in when you saw him?

23 A. He was lying in bed propped up with a

24 pillow. His -- both hands were bandaged. He was

25 injured on one side of his face quite seriously. For

Page 4488

1 the most part covered with a sheet.

2 Q. And did you speak with him at that time?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. What was your purpose in speaking with him?

5 What were you trying to convey?

6 A. The not really convey. I wanted to tell

7 him -- I did. I wanted to tell him that I found his

8 family, and I wanted to provide the information to

9 British battalion for their burial, and my primary goal

10 was to get their names and to be able to relay that

11 message -- that information back to British battalion.

12 Q. And did you tell this man that you had, in

13 fact, found his family and also the circumstances in

14 which you found them?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. And what was his reaction to that?

17 A. It's difficult -- he was grateful. It was

18 very important, even though he was a witness, that

19 someone had found his family.

20 Q. Did he provide you the names of the

21 individuals who were in that house?

22 A. Yes, he did.

23 Q. While you were speaking with him were you

24 jotting down or scribbling down notes on a piece of

25 paper?

Page 4489

1 A. Yes. I had a piece of paper and a pen with

2 me because I wanted to take down their names. And I

3 also asked specific questions like, "Where would he

4 like his family to be buried, and would he like a

5 religious leader present, and if so, who would that

6 be?"

7 Q. Did he provide you with those names?

8 A. Yes, he did.

9 Q. And do you have those names with you?

10 A. No, I do not, but I did send a memo to

11 British battalion describing -- with their names, and

12 the name of the Imam that he had requested, and where

13 to bury them. I don't have it with me. I haven't seen

14 it in a long time.

15 Q. And did this gentleman -- by the way, did you

16 come to know his name?

17 A. This was [redacted].

18 Q. Did [redacted] then, after expressing his

19 gratitude, provide you with additional -- or began to

20 speak about what had happened?

21 A. Yes, he did. He basically repeated to me

22 what I had been told the day before.

23 Q. And what is your recollection of what he told

24 you that day in the hospital?

25 A. He told me that -- that firing had started in

Page 4490

1 the village at an early hour, 5.30, and that they

2 remained in their home. Through the window they could

3 see soldiers going up and down the streets, and could

4 hear firing.

5 He told me that the at one point soldiers

6 were heading in the direction of his home, and that he

7 then tried to hide in different places around the room,

8 and that these individuals entered the room,

9 immediately went to the second room, where he could

10 hear and to a certain extent also see that they had

11 shot his family, and that those individuals then poured

12 petrol around the room, including at a certain point he

13 was behind a couch, also on the couch he was hiding

14 behind or near, and set that ablaze.

15 Q. Did he indicate to you that he either knew or

16 did the not know who was responsible for that --

17 A. I asked him that question. I asked him --

18 actually, I'm not even sure if I asked him per se. He

19 had probably mentioned a name, and I said, "So you knew

20 these individuals." And then he indicated to me, "Of

21 course I knew them," something like that, "Of course I

22 know them." Which, of course, there was a reaction

23 from the others in the room as well to that.

24 Q. Did he indicate not by name but by some other

25 way who these people were?

Page 4491

1 A. He mentioned, yes, "My neighbours from the

2 first house."

3 Q. Did you press him to give you a name, or was

4 that --

5 A. No, no, no. As I say, I was not interested

6 in perpetrators. The only reason that I even asked

7 that question was -- I wanted to know whether or not to

8 pass on that information to any future investigation,

9 that he would be someone for them to talk to.

10 Q. And did you, in fact, pass on the information

11 about the names of his family to BRITBAT?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Now, you indicated that you were taking some

14 scribbled notes down on a piece of paper while he was

15 speaking to you. Do you know what happened to those

16 notes?

17 A. No, I do not.

18 Q. At some point later on did you attempt to

19 reconstruct your conversation with [redacted] and --

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. Through a little memo of some sort?

22 A. Yes, I did. Part of this same one. This is

23 days after the report had been submitted and we were

24 hopeful that there would be a full-scale investigation,

25 and so I attempted to put down whatever we had to be

Page 4492

1 able to assist a future investigation.

2 Q. By the way, do you have that little memo you

3 did on [redacted] in front of you? You might want to

4 take a look.

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. Are there names of his family listed there?

7 A. Yes, there are.

8 Q. Could you read them out, please?

9 A. Last names are Nazer Ahmic, Zehrudina Ahmic,

10 Elvis Ahmic and Sead Ahmic.

11 MR. MOSKOWITZ: One moment, Your Honour.

12 I have no more questions at this time but

13 would proffer the Exhibit P -- I think it's 286, under

14 seal.

15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel

16 Pavkovic?

17 MR. PAVKOVIC: I apologise, Your Honour, just

18 a moment.

19 Mr. President, perhaps the Defence counsel

20 could have a look at this exhibit. We do not know what

21 is this document that has been tendered into evidence

22 by the Prosecutor.

23 MR. MOSKOWITZ: We haven't tendered it into

24 evidence.


Page 4493

1 MR. PAVKOVIC: There has been a

2 misunderstanding then.

3 I would like to advise you, Mr. President,

4 that this witness will be examined by the Defence

5 counsel Ranko Radovic, Jadranka Slokovic-Glumac, Luko

6 Susak, and I also will have two questions. Thank you.

7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel Radovic.

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4494

1 (redacted)

2 MR. RADOVIC: All right.

3 Q. You said that when you had arrived in Ahmici

4 that you looked for sniper positions, if I understood

5 you correctly.

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. Can you please tell me, am I correct that you

8 were able to locate sniper positions by looking for

9 lots of shell casings?

10 A. No. I wouldn't say that I was looking

11 specifically because of shell casings and so on, I was

12 told that there were a number of bodies collected from

13 a certain area, more than anywhere else, and that the

14 injuries that were reported to me by British battalion

15 were single shots to the head and neck. This led me to

16 believe, as well as many others, there was a group of

17 people that were discussing this, that this was just

18 not -- that this would be direct fire, and the

19 indication was that there could have been snipers

20 operating because of the accuracy of these shots.

21 Q. What is your military education?

22 A. I have none.

23 Q. What then leads you to believe that the only

24 accurate shots -- accurate shots could only be fired

25 from a sniper, or to be more precise, from a rifle

Page 4495

1 having the sights, the telescopic sights?

2 A. This came from what was -- my conversation

3 with British battalion officers who have military

4 experience, and in their opinion -- this was brought up

5 by us, but in their opinion it was very possible --

6 we're not saying that was confirmed, but it was very

7 possible that snipers were operating in that area.

8 Q. But we were not discussing sniper operations

9 at this time, but only that the bodies, the dead bodies

10 that you found had been hit from a sniper rifle or from

11 an ordinary rifle?

12 A. I'm sorry, I could not understand. If you

13 could repeat the question, please.

14 Q. You said that you came to that conclusion on

15 the basis of your conversations and on the basis of the

16 fact that these people had been shot with a single

17 bullet or two bullets, and that this was -- that it was

18 possible that snipers were operating in that battle

19 area. So now my question is: What facts were used by

20 your informants when they reached the conclusion that

21 the dead bodies were shot by a sniper rifle?

22 A. I don't think we ever drew a conclusion as

23 such. I mentioned that we looked in that area because

24 we had information to believe, but I don't think that

25 we ever concluded anything with regard to snipers.

Page 4496

1 Q. That's much better. Now, tell me, when

2 you're talking about issues having to do with military

3 knowledge, are you giving us your own opinion or the

4 opinions of your informants? And as you already told

5 us, your informants, sources of information, were

6 officers of the British battalion.

7 A. Not exclusively British battalion. There

8 were a number other people that we had raised questions

9 with, including European Community monitors and other

10 members of UNPROFOR in different locations.

11 Q. You obtained information about traces or

12 evidence found in Ahmici, and on the basis of that

13 information certain conclusions were made regarding the

14 kind of weapons from which these people were killed.

15 What kind of knowledge, what kind of information about

16 that could ECMM monitors have? What information did

17 you receive from the European Community monitors?

18 To be more specific, I thought that you had

19 received all your information from the British, because

20 they were officers, military officers, with a certain

21 kind of military experience, and now you're talking

22 about EC monitors. So now tell me, what relevant

23 military information did you receive from the ECMM

24 monitors?

25 A. I don't believe that at any point I claimed

Page 4497

1 to describe the military operation at all. I don't --

2 I don't see where we described weaponry, other than

3 shell casings or -- I think the only other weapon I

4 mentioned was petrol. Our investigation was not of the

5 military operation per se. I honestly don't believe

6 that I relayed any military facts at all.

7 Q. I'm not asking you about military operations,

8 I'm asking you about traces, evidence, physical

9 evidence. Shell casings, that's evidence. You claim

10 that you received information about this evidence --

11 I'm talking about the shell casings and the wounds

12 sustained by the victims -- from the British battalion

13 members.

14 I'm not talking about the military

15 operation. Military operation, that's planning and

16 execution. I'm asking you about the evidence that you

17 found as a monitor employed by Mr. Mazowiecki.

18 On the basis of the traces of evidence that

19 you found, what conclusions did you draw?

20 A. The conclusions that there was a -- the

21 conclusions that were drawn, as were put in the report,

22 are that there was a sustained military operation in

23 the village of Ahmici, and that as a result,

24 approximately 180 homes had been destroyed and that a

25 number of people had been killed.

Page 4498

1 Q. So you did not draw any conclusions regarding

2 the shell casings found?

3 A. At one point when we were visiting -- when we

4 were visiting the field, we asked. We looked for shell

5 casings just because we had an indication that snipers

6 could be operating in that area, and we asked a simple

7 soldier who was next to us what he thought this would

8 be. We were not looking to even collect evidence. For

9 example, that shell casing was never collected. No

10 other evidence was ever collected in terms of casings

11 or any other military hardware that was left in the

12 village.

13 Q. You said that you looked for sniper shell

14 casings. Did I understand you correctly?

15 A. Yes, that is what I said.

16 Q. All right. I will go on to my next

17 question.

18 When you looked for the sniper shell casings,

19 according to you, what's the difference between the

20 sniper shell casing and an ordinary rifle shell?

21 A. I'm not an expert in ballistics.

22 Q. But you were looking at this, as you just

23 told us. You were looking for sniper rifle shells. So

24 now please tell us what was it you were looking for on

25 the ground in Ahmici? How would you distinguish a

Page 4499

1 sniper rifle shell from an ordinary rifle shell?

2 You, you are not an expert, so I would just

3 like to know how did you spend your time when you were

4 looking for those shells?

5 A. The -- looking for sniper positions, looking

6 for sharpshooter positions. I'm not using the term

7 "sniper" in terms of a sniper will have a certain type

8 of weapon, will conduct warfare in a certain way, but

9 sharpshooters are someone that would use his position

10 and weapon to obtain a certain effect.

11 Q. I apologise. I fail to understand. This is

12 your assumption as to what a sniper is. It is very

13 clear what a sniper is. You told us that you had been

14 looking for evidence of sniper rifles being deployed

15 there on the basis of shell casings.

16 Can you now tell me -- this is the third time

17 I'm now asking you this question -- how could you

18 distinguish the sniper rifle shells from ordinary shell

19 casings?

20 A. I didn't distinguish them at all. In fact, I

21 never really received a hundred per cent confirmation

22 that snipers were operating. This was just something

23 that -- we were attempting to find firing positions.

24 Q. All right. This is really more or less what

25 you could find there. You also spoke about petrol

Page 4500

1 being used to burn houses. Was I correct in my

2 understanding?

3 What physical fact that you found on the

4 ground lead you to believe that petrol was used to burn

5 those houses?

6 A. We never investigated the -- as I mentioned

7 earlier, we are not criminal investigators, and we did

8 not conduct a criminal investigation or a forensic

9 investigation of how the homes that had been destroyed,

10 the manner in which they were destroyed.

11 Speaking from just what we saw, it was

12 apparent that the homes had been gutted by flames for

13 the most part from the inside, and the reason I believe

14 that is that many of the external walls were standing,

15 while as the multiple storeys and the roof, which in my

16 understanding the beams are of wood and other flammable

17 materials, would have burned and fallen into itself.

18 Q. Can you please tell us, are you aware of

19 incendiary bullets?

20 A. Yes, I am.

21 Q. Is it possible to set on fire from the inside

22 if you fire an incendiary bullet into the house and it

23 hits a wooden object and then the house burns from the

24 inside?

25 A. I wouldn't know.

Page 4501

1 Q. Is it possible to set a house on fire very

2 quickly if you set a curtain on fire with a match, and

3 you don't even have to use petrol in that case?

4 A. I would imagine so.

5 Q. In such a case, is it necessary to use

6 petrol? In other words, is it then -- is it a credible

7 conclusion that petrol was used?

8 A. I didn't --

9 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic, sorry to

10 interrupt you. The witness is not an expert witness.

11 He's not an expert in incendiary weapons, and petrol

12 and so on. I don't see any point in asking these

13 questions. If you're asking for hypothetical answers,

14 all right, but as I say, I don't see any relevance.

15 He's a factual witness. He's a witness of fact. He

16 has no expertise in this area.

17 MR. RADOVIC: I know, but he draws some

18 conclusions about things he does not have an expertise

19 in, about snipers, about manners in which houses were

20 set on fire. I just want to point out the fact that in

21 his notes he's talking about things he doesn't know a

22 lot about. But at any rate I just have one more

23 question and then I'll be drawing to a close.

24 A. Your Honour, if I may.

25 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, yes.

Page 4502

1 A. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I was

2 told by numerous witness that petrol was used.

3 JUDGE CASSESE: So you're reporting a fact?

4 A. I'm reporting a fact, relaying --

5 JUDGE CASSESE: Not even fact. The opinion

6 of other persons. So he's simply reporting the

7 opinion.

8 MR. RADOVIC: All right. So this is not his

9 own conclusion on the basis of what he found on the

10 ground, but he's just reporting other people's

11 opinions. I can agree to that.

12 Q. And now, again, I have to ask you this

13 question: Can you give me the names of the people who

14 told you that? Do you have those names noted down --

15 A. No, I--

16 Q. -- or is it possible for you to remember all

17 those names? So you're unable to give us the names of

18 the people who told you that?

19 A. No, I was waiting for the translation to

20 end.

21 Yes. I can distinctly remember Sakib Ahmic

22 telling me that petrol was used inside of his home.

23 Specifically he told me that. And numerous other

24 people from -- from my encounters in the Zenica

25 cinema.

Page 4503

1 Q. All right. Of these other people, do you

2 know any names? We know about Sakib Ahmic. We're not

3 challenging the fact that he was telling you about

4 this.

5 A. I believe that (redacted) also told me that

6 petrol was used. Those are the two names that I can

7 confirm told me that petrol was used, by name.

8 Q. So just these two people and nobody else?

9 A. As far as I can recall, yes.

10 Q. When you came to Vitez -- or, rather, in

11 Ahmici, you went there with the assistance of the

12 British battalion. Who gave you the first general

13 information about Ahmici before you even went there on

14 the ground?

15 A. I believe it was the officer in charge of

16 briefing at British battalion.

17 Q. Do you remember his name?

18 A. No, I do not, but he would be -- I think that

19 that was his full-time function, if I'm not mistaken,

20 to brief officers on the current situation.

21 MR. RADOVIC: I have no more questions.

22 Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel Radovic.

24 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac? I'm sorry, it's time to take

25 a break.

Page 4504

1 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Yes. After the break,

2 thank you.

3 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. I think we'll take a

4 break now. Sorry, I had not realised.

5 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.

7 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Slokovic-Glumac?

8 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: If I may, I shall have

9 some introductory questions, and I should like, if I

10 may, to keep it in closed session for a few

11 introductory questions. It is only for a few minutes.

12 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. We are in closed

13 session.

14 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you.

15 (closed session)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4505













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Page 4506













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Page 4507













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Page 4508

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (Open Session)


25 Q. Do you remember if it was the same person

Page 4509

1 that you gave the dictaphone to record her statement on

2 a tape? Was that one of those persons? You said that

3 there were two persons who recorded their statements on

4 tape.

5 A. It is very possible, but I'm not 100

6 per cent. It is possible. The person that I can see

7 in my head had the basic same build and colour of hair,

8 but I'm not 100 per cent because this particular

9 individual that I handed the tape to, I really had no

10 special conversations with her. She just wanted to

11 speak into the tape recorder.

12 Q. What person are we referring to? The one who

13 made a longer statement or the one that made a shorter

14 statement? Are we referring to the latter?

15 A. I'm referring to the person who made the

16 short statement, not the administrator from the clinic

17 but the other person. I believe her last name is [redacted]

18 and first name is [redacted]

19 Q. Tell us, how was the exact location of the

20 house described to you?

21 A. Well, it was described as a smaller house --

22 if I recall correctly -- a smaller house in a group of

23 other homes in between the two roads. That was the

24 basic description. And then a house number was given,

25 but I was also told that it's very difficult to find it

Page 4510

1 by just looking for the house number, but to look

2 between the two -- between two roads.

3 Q. Was the number 5 on the house still there or

4 was the house completely burned down; do you remember?

5 A. I never saw the number on the house. I was

6 told that House number 5 had been found. I actually

7 never saw the number, no.

8 Q. Right. Tell us then, you knew what your duty

9 was: You were supposed to answer questions relating to

10 human rights in the Lasva Valley at the time. Is that

11 so?

12 A. We were actually not instructed to conduct

13 any kind of investigation, but in the normal course of

14 our duties as human rights officers, this was something

15 that fell within our mandate. Once we had established

16 some basic facts, we brought it to the attention of

17 certain individuals in Geneva who were there to support

18 Mr. Mazowiecki, that we believed that we should look

19 into this matter and that an investigation or the

20 Special Rapporteur should take interest in this

21 particular area.

22 Q. Right. But then you knew that with regard to

23 those events which you monitored, the state of human

24 rights, violations of human rights, you knew that you

25 would be writing some reports, didn't you?

Page 4511

1 A. Absolutely. Everything that we did in terms

2 of fact-finding dealt with the human rights situation,

3 in very broad terms, throughout the former Yugoslavia.

4 The mandate of Mr. Mazowiecki was such to report and

5 provide, if you will, a reference document about the

6 state of human rights throughout the former Yugoslavia.

7 Q. And then, during those seven days, you were

8 only involved in that particular narrow area. During

9 those seven days you were not involved, you were not

10 monitoring in any way, human rights in other parts of

11 Yugoslavia?

12 A. This was a special case. This was a little

13 bit different than a lot of things that we had done

14 previously and after that.

15 There was a call for someone to do something

16 in that area, and we didn't know if we were the ones

17 that could provide that. We certainly weren't

18 qualified to do it. But Mr. Mazowiecki wanted to bring

19 the world's attention, and that was the mechanism in

20 the Centre for Human Rights, to report to the

21 Secretary-General of the United Nations who would then

22 relay that information on to the General Assembly or to

23 the Security Council, that is indeed the mechanism. So

24 our job was to provide information and to hope that

25 governments and other institutions would take action.

Page 4512

1 Q. All right. So it was to establish certain

2 facts which you saw there.

3 Now, tell me, you took some notes while

4 talking to witnesses in the cinema; is that so?

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. And you equally took notes during interviews

7 with [redacted] at a hospital?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. And you equally took notes when you talked to

10 those persons in the cinema for the first time, the

11 first time when there were those people from Ahmici,

12 when you singled out people from Ahmici?

13 A. That is correct.

14 Q. And you also compiled some notes, that is,

15 you took off the videotapes the statements of those two

16 eyewitnesses; you also took notes of that, of those two

17 women who taped their comments, their interviews?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. In other words, on each of these occasions,

20 you took notes and you established facts in this way;

21 is that so?

22 A. That is correct.

23 Q. Who did you turn over those notes to? I

24 mean, in view of their importance, you said it was very

25 important to establish what really had happened there,

Page 4513

1 and you thought that it could serve as grounds for

2 future investigation, you already said it, and you had

3 found some facts and collected them. I should like to

4 know, who did you give them to?

5 A. I didn't give them to anyone because we had

6 no mechanism. That was one of the frustrating things

7 about the Centre for Human Rights and the mandates of

8 the United Nations at that time. We had no procedure

9 in which to seal, collect, hold, file; there was no

10 body that would deal with that type of information

11 whatsoever. The information and the notes were

12 contained here in what was referred to as an interim

13 report.

14 This report or Mazowiecki's mandate, for the

15 most part, is done with on-site visits, and the

16 individual, or Mr. Mazowiecki in this case, reports to

17 the Economic and Social Council as well as to the

18 Secretary-General. These are the notes.

19 Unfortunately, we had no procedure. It was

20 extremely frustrating. I agree. This is one of the

21 things that was very difficult for all of us in the

22 Centre as well as other organisations.

23 Q. On the basis of this report, and presumably

24 some other reports and television recordings, in '95

25 the indictment was filed for the same event. Did

Page 4514

1 anyone from the Prosecutor's Office talk to you, turn

2 to you and ask about such notes, about the existence of

3 such notes, because you had been there, you had been

4 there immediately after the events?

5 A. Yes, I was asked about the notes and I was

6 asked about the tape as well.

7 Q. Did you give any of this material to the

8 Prosecutor's Office?

9 A. Not personally. I did direct, when asked, I

10 did direct them to the Centre for Human Rights' office

11 and told them that there is a possibility that

12 something may remain there.

13 Q. Does this mean that the Office for Human

14 Rights had some notes? Had you turned over a part of

15 your notes or perhaps a tape? I mean the Centre for

16 Human Rights.

17 A. No, I didn't turn anything over. As I said,

18 there was no procedure in which to turn anything over,

19 no body or no procedure. However, I had worked in the

20 office for quite some time, and we had accumulated

21 files that were used for field purposes, and I had

22 hoped that there was some of that information there. I

23 don't know if they actually -- well, I don't know if

24 they went to the field office, but I can tell you that

25 I was provided today with my typewritten notes that I

Page 4515

1 haven't seen and I do not personally have a copy. I

2 was provided with a copy today and I haven't seen that

3 for quite some time, although I do now have a copy of

4 that.

5 Q. And so it is quite possible that some of

6 these notes stayed behind, I mean, at the Centre for

7 Human Rights; is that what you're trying to say?

8 A. No, actually, unfortunately, I know that

9 there have been several attempts -- not necessarily

10 even directed at this case but at other cases -- to

11 find notes in the Centre for Human Rights, and as far

12 as I know, very little, if anything, was found. I

13 really don't know the answer to that question.

14 Q. All right. As regards this event, the event

15 related to Sakib Ahmic, the whole event is described

16 with considerable precision, isn't that so?

17 A. Yes, I recall quite a bit about my

18 conversation with Mr. Ahmic.

19 Q. Do you recall if Sakib Ahmic said that he had

20 seen how his grandchildren were killed; do you remember

21 that? So that he would really affirm with certainty

22 that he knew that his children had been killed before

23 the house was put on fire; do you remember that?

24 A. The latter part of your question, the way you

25 formulated it, did he see, the way it was relayed to

Page 4516

1 me, I had the impression that he was able to witness

2 what had happened in the house. Did he actually say,

3 "I saw them being killed"? I'm not sure about that.

4 Q. That's not what I meant. I was referring to

5 his knowledge that his children had been killed. Was

6 this something that you learned?

7 A. In other words -- no, absolutely. When I

8 walked in the room to get information from him, he --

9 it's interesting, because when I arrived, I think that

10 others in the room were some of the individuals that I

11 had talked to in the cinema. And when I came to the

12 room, he knew who I was. I told him that I had found

13 his family, and he knew that, and I asked him at that

14 point what would he want done with the bodies and where

15 would he like for me to provide, if possible, a

16 burial. He was very clear on that.

17 Q. Please tell me, who were these persons in the

18 hospital at the time when you were there? You said the

19 persons that you talked to in the cinema.

20 A. There were -- there were several children --

21 Q. Was there also the girl that you mentioned,

22 the one that said that she was the mechanic's

23 daughter?

24 A. No. No, I don't believe she was there. I

25 would remember her, and I don't recall her being

Page 4517

1 there.

2 Q. That other person who gave you the report?

3 A. It's possible. It's very possible. I have

4 to tell you, when I came into that room I was extremely

5 nervous. I was under time constraints, and I had never

6 told anyone, in my life, that I had found his family,

7 and this was very difficult for me to do. I came into

8 a room where there was a man seriously injured who I

9 had to relay this to, and it was very painful for me,

10 and I can imagine even more so for this individual. I

11 tried to do as little talking as possible and let this

12 individual speak to me.

13 Q. So you think that the woman who had given you

14 the information about the house was there. That's

15 [redacted]. That's what you said her name was. Was

16 that other person who had given you the initial report,

17 or who had recorded the statement, was she there?

18 A. I said it was possible that Sedeta was

19 there. It's possible. The reason I say that is

20 because I was immediately welcomed there. He knew

21 exactly who I was, and he also knew exactly what I came

22 to tell him. I mean, I felt that. I felt that. It

23 was just --

24 Q. All right. Can you tell me, do you remember

25 whether that other person was there?

Page 4518

1 A. I don't think so. She had a very strong

2 presence. I -- if I said it was possible for Sedeta to

3 be there, I think that it's not probable that the first

4 person was there. I don't believe that she was there.

5 Q. I have to ask you one question. You said

6 that in the three visits to Zenica, to the cinema, to

7 the hospital, you talked exclusively with the family of

8 [redacted] --

9 A. Excuse me --

10 Q. -- his daughter, his daughter-in-law and his

11 granddaughter. These are the only persons that you

12 remembered from those three visits. Can you recall any

13 other person?

14 A. Oh, I talked to -- I talked to 30, 40

15 people. And many of the people that I spoke with --

16 these are just the names of people that actually had

17 information that was very specific, that I was looking

18 for. Many of the individuals that I talked to had fled

19 early that day, or had escaped by different means and

20 so on and had not actually witnessed crimes. I was

21 looking for witnesses, not just people that were from

22 that village.

23 Q. You were looking for witnesses, but it's

24 possible that there were people there who had somebody

25 killed. You gave us information only concerning these

Page 4519

1 three people. Can you tell us about any other person

2 of whom you have some more detailed information

3 regarding the event in Ahmici and that you also had

4 spoken to?

5 A. I spoke to -- let's see. There was a lady

6 that was -- I don't know if she introduced herself, but

7 I remember her as the mechanic's wife, and the reason I

8 remember it as such is when I was asked about what I'd

9 seen in the village, she said, "Did you see a house

10 that had a mechanic's shop?" and so on. And --

11 Q. Where would that house be? Did she tell you

12 that?

13 A. I didn't -- I believe that that house was a

14 bit lower in the village, and that's why we didn't

15 visit. If I'm not mistaken. It would be in this area

16 here (indicating), if I'm not mistaken. If I recall,

17 it would be down here somewhere. It was --

18 Q. You were referring to a car mechanic; right?

19 A. That is correct. There were a number of

20 other individuals. There was a group of individuals

21 that were from a different part of Ahmici, if I can

22 call it the upper part of Ahmici. There were -- there

23 was a group of two or three that had been together with

24 the clinic administrator, (redacted) who were also

25 present.

Page 4520

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 A. Excuse me. I don’t even know that now.

6 who?

7 (redacted)

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. (redacted)

10 A. I didn't know that until today -- until now.

11 I had no idea.

12 Q. When you entered the house, who else entered

13 the house with you? You were in the house number 5 on

14 that day when you found her -- found it?

15 A. That is correct. I entered possibly third or

16 fourth into house number 5.

17 Q. Tell me, how many bodies were found on that

18 occasion?

19 A. I personally saw what I thought were three

20 bodies, and one was very distinct and was also shown on

21 the video. However, in the left-hand corner of the

22 room there were two remains that were not really

23 associated -- they could have been together, they could

24 have been separate, but I believe that there were three

25 remains visible in that area.

Page 4521

1 Q. Was it possible to see clearly that these

2 were bodies when we're talking about the two remains,

3 or was it really hard to say that?

4 A. One was very clear. The other two remains --

5 or the other two partial -- because I wasn't really

6 clear if that was one that had been split into two

7 pieces, if you will, or was it one body. However, it

8 was -- I mean, there were things that immediately told

9 you that yes, these are remains, but the other two not

10 very clearly, no.

11 Q. Did somebody who was with you that day there

12 have any kind of forensic experience that would enable

13 that person to tell you exactly what it was, since we

14 could see on the photographs that it wasn't very

15 clear.

16 A. No, but I believe that was done once the

17 bodies had been collected.

18 Q. Were the bodies taken to be autopsied? Do

19 you know anything about that, or to be examined in any

20 way?

21 A. No, I have no information of what happened

22 after the bodies were collected.

23 Q. In the conversation with [redacted], you

24 said that he had given you names of the perpetrators;

25 is that correct?

Page 4522

1 A. No, I didn't say that he gave me names. He

2 may have, because something led me to ask him, "So you

3 knew these individuals," because I remember asking that

4 question. And his response at that time was, "Of

5 course I know those individuals." But I didn't write

6 down a name or ask him any further questions. That was

7 probably --

8 Q. But did he tell you the names? Did he give

9 you the names, even if you didn't note them down?

10 A. He may have. Not names, not names. I

11 believe that if he did say something it was a name.

12 Q. What?

13 A. I can't recall which name.

14 Q. You further stated that these had been

15 neighbours, next-door neighbours. That's what you

16 said.

17 A. No, that's how he relayed the information to

18 me. He said -- he --

19 Q. That was my question.

20 A. Yes. Yes. He referred to it as, "My

21 neighbours."

22 Q. Did he say -- did he specify neighbours from

23 which house?

24 A. He said -- he said, "Of course I know. Of

25 course I know these people. It's my neighbours in the

Page 4523

1 first house."

2 Q. Yes, but all the Croats live in houses next

3 door to his house. There are three or four houses

4 surrounding his house, so this is not a distinctive

5 feature. Did he give you any specific information?

6 That's the reason why I'm asking you this.

7 A. No. I wasn't looking for any house or

8 anything. I was told that it was his neighbours from

9 the first house, that's all.

10 Q. Nothing more specific?

11 A. No.

12 Q. How many people were involved? Did he give

13 you that information?

14 A. The -- I can't be precise on that, but it was

15 definitely -- it was in plural. He was speaking about

16 "soldiers", he was speaking about up and down the

17 road, and then he was speaking about when "They came

18 into my house," which means there's definitely more

19 than one, but I don't recall asking or being told how

20 many individuals.

21 Q. Did he talk about soldiers and neighbours or

22 just about soldiers?

23 A. He -- he talked about the attack on this

24 general area right close to his home in a way that he

25 was hoping that they wouldn't come towards his house,

Page 4524

1 and then -- that they then came to his house, and at

2 that time, that's when he mentioned a name of some

3 kind. And I can't remember. Sort of like, "That's

4 when so and so came into my house." And I wasn't very

5 clear, I couldn't hear the name, but I said, "So you

6 knew these people." And then he said, "Of course,

7 these are my neighbours from the first house."

8 Q. That means that he observed the movement of

9 those soldiers through his window.

10 A. He observed their movement through a window,

11 or through door or how he observed, but, yes, he told

12 me he observed movement for some time through the

13 window or through the door. He observed movement

14 outside of his house.

15 Q. You said that some other family members were

16 there, and probably that one person from the cinema and

17 some children. Was there -- were there any other

18 adults in the hospital with him when you were there?

19 A. You mean in the room?

20 Q. I mean in the hospital room.

21 A. In the hospital room. Yes, yes. There

22 were -- there was at least three if not four adults in

23 the room.

24 Q. You said that it seemed to you that all these

25 people were relatives of some kind.

Page 4525

1 A. It was -- it was the way that they were all

2 seated in the room. There was -- obviously I had

3 interrupted a visit of some kind.

4 Q. Tell me, as regards your arrival in Ahmic,

5 you said that on the first visit you just passed

6 through and didn't see much, and on the second time you

7 had a specific purpose in mind, to learn facts about

8 it. You went to Upper Ahmici by car; is that correct?

9 A. We went to an upper area of Ahmici, yes. Not

10 in a car but in a tank.

11 Q. In a tank. Did you leave the tank in Upper

12 Ahmici?

13 A. We are talking about the second trip to

14 Ahmici?

15 Q. Second.

16 A. No, we did not.

17 Q. In the only part that you actually passed

18 through is the area near the road near the mosque, you

19 said that you found some shell casings near two houses

20 near the mosque, if I understood you correctly.

21 A. We covered -- we covered, on the second

22 trip -- if you'd like, I could point out --

23 Q. Yes, go ahead.

24 A. Okay. We started in this general area here

25 (indicating). We walked down the road a considerable

Page 4526

1 ways. I don't know exactly how far, but I would

2 imagine it was somewhere around here (indicating). We

3 then entered the vehicles again, continued slightly

4 into this direction, returned, continued up the hill.

5 We went up to an area we could turn around, and I

6 imagine -- okay. We passed this, it became very

7 narrow. There was an area -- it could be this one, it

8 could be this one here, it could be even closer, it

9 could be even this, but there was an area where the

10 vehicles could turn around, and that's about as far as

11 we went. I can't really be sure looking at this, but I

12 would say that we drove -- I can -- without looking at

13 this it's a lot easier. We probably drove about 150

14 maybe 200 metres past the second mosque when we turned

15 around.

16 Q. Right, but you said that you did not get off

17 in this area but you passed by the mosque, the lower

18 mosque on the lower part of the road, and that you

19 visited two houses there?

20 A. I would say it was more than two in the lower

21 part. We certainly went in -- not necessarily into the

22 homes themselves. I don't think we ever went into a

23 house except for just peering inside, or looking

24 through windows and things like that, but we visited a

25 number -- a number of homes.

Page 4527

1 Q. You were talking about the houses surrounding

2 the lower mosque; is that correct?

3 A. Yes. For the most part, yes.

4 Q. You said that you noticed a lot of damage on

5 those houses, that they had been burnt. You saw bullet

6 marks on some of them, a lot of shell casings around

7 the houses. Does this situation indicate that some

8 kind of combat was taking place there -- had been

9 taking place there?

10 A. Weapons had been fired. I don't know whose

11 weapons, but weapons were fired obviously.

12 Q. The information provided to you were mostly

13 provided to you by BRITBAT officers; is that correct?

14 A. No, that's not correct.

15 Q. Who else?

16 A. I spoke to, as I said, a number of

17 individuals in Zenica, in the cinema, as well as the

18 gentleman in the hospital and members of ECMM.

19 Q. But you did say that as regards the number of

20 houses that have been destroyed, did you have any

21 information as to how many members of the Croatian

22 armed forces took part in the attack?

23 A. No. We -- we asked that question, and I

24 don't think that anyone could determine that at the

25 time.

Page 4528

1 Q. Did you have any information as to the number

2 of victims, according to the estimates at the time, or

3 the findings at the time?

4 A. We were told that they -- there was

5 confirmation of 103 killed, and that the Red Cross, or

6 UNHCR or some other body was in the process of putting

7 together a list of names. We sought to get our hands

8 on that list, and I believe we did then or maybe days

9 after when we had arrived back in Zagreb, but we did

10 receive a hand-written list of names. There were 103

11 names on that list.

12 Q. The people that you talked to in the cinema,

13 were these exclusively women and children or were there

14 men among them?

15 A. There were also men.

16 Q. Were there men of military age?

17 A. Military age. There were two men that I

18 would say -- I guess military age being from about 18

19 until 50, I guess, 60, 70, I don't know, but there were

20 two men in their 30's. However, I don't believe that

21 they came from Ahmici.

22 One the men I'm talking about is the

23 individual that produced the key to the room, and the

24 other individual that I talked to was somehow related

25 to someone there.

Page 4529

1 Q. The people that you talked to in the cinema,

2 did they mention that the BH army was in Ahmici or that

3 there had been an armed response on that day, on the

4 16th?

5 A. We asked that question and we were told that

6 there was very little resistance.

7 Q. Were you told how long the conflict in Ahmici

8 lasted? Did they tell you this?

9 A. I don't think specifically, but that

10 information was available through different stories. I

11 mean, we had a basic idea of the time -- the times that

12 things occurred. Yes. I mean, not specifically, you

13 know, "It started here and ended here," but we had

14 gained that information, I believe.

15 Q. How long did it last approximately, according

16 to the information at your disposal?

17 A. If I recall correctly, there was mortar fire

18 or heavy fire that began at approximately 5.30 in the

19 morning, and that it continued with -- other types of

20 fire continued with intensity until about 9.00. I'm

21 just recalling what was told to me and how it was

22 told.

23 There seemed to be a break in the firing

24 around 9.00, but resumed and continued until about

25 midday and about midday it ceased. The reason I can

Page 4530

1 say around midday, is this is when we were told that

2 additional patrols of UNPROFOR had come to the

3 village.

4 Q. After UNPROFOR left, was there shooting in

5 the village, according to your information?

6 A. I don't believe I was told, no. I don't

7 know.

8 Q. Please tell me, were you told which route the

9 people used to flee the village? Did they tell you

10 which way they fled?

11 A. There was a couple of -- I was told of a

12 couple of ways that people escaped. Many -- many

13 stayed in their current hiding places -- or their

14 hiding places until dark.

15 In the case (redacted) actually

16 saved by someone who escorted her to a house.

17 Mr. Ahmic, or [redacted], I believe that he

18 crossed over one of the hills. I really didn't get

19 into those details.

20 There was a number of people that went to the

21 northern part of the village, I believe. There was

22 another group that fled in different directions. There

23 was no one route that was mentioned to me. There were

24 all different stories of how people got out of those

25 situations, and to be quite frank, I didn't really

Page 4531

1 ask.

2 Q. Did you go to any other village, apart from

3 Ahmici, since this report concerns the wider area, not

4 only Ahmici but some other villages. Did you go to

5 those villages? I'm referring to the village of

6 Miletici.

7 A. Yes, we did.

8 Q. Do you remember what had happened there?

9 What did you find there?

10 A. If that's relevant for this case, yes.


12 A. Yes, absolutely. We received a report, while

13 we were there, from the UNHCR that there was a

14 disturbed population, extremely disturbed population in

15 a village of Miletici, up the hill, and that something

16 had happened there and if we could take a look at it as

17 well, which we agreed. Also, the UNHCR insisted that a

18 British battalion send a patrol there immediately,

19 because there was reports that an atrocity had taken

20 place by an individual, if I recall correctly, who had

21 come down from that village. It was very remote, that

22 village.

23 JUDGE CASSESE: I'm sorry to have to say that

24 we have got to stop now. So we will continue tomorrow

25 at 9.30. Tomorrow we will go on until 1.00, and then

Page 4532

1 break for lunch from 1.00 to 2.30 and finish at 5.00.

2 So we adjourn now until tomorrow.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

4 5.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

5 the 13th day of October, 1998, at

6 9.30 a.m.