Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4533

1 Tuesday, 13th September, 1998

2 (The accused entered court)

3 (Open session)

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-16-T, the

6 Prosecutor versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic,

7 Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic and

8 Vladimir Santic also know as "Vlado".

9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Good morning.

10 Let me take advantage of these few seconds or

11 minutes before the witness is brought in. First of

12 all, I it may sound pedantic, but I wonder whether the

13 Prosecutor could be so kind as to give us a list of

14 witnesses according to the protective measures, because

15 now we've been a given a list with the names of the

16 various Prosecutors that are going to take the

17 examination-in-chief, but we need a list of the

18 protective measures to know -- if it is possible at

19 all.

20 MR. MOSKOWITZ: The remaining witnesses for

21 this week do not have protective measures.

22 JUDGE CASSESE: None of them.

23 MR. MOSKOWITZ: That's correct. For this

24 week. We're not, of course, talking about the Court

25 witness that will appear today.

Page 4534

1 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. She asked for the

2 closed session. Thank you. I think Counsel

3 Slokovic-Glumac was still cross-examining the witness.

4 (The witness entered court)

5 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, one of the

6 accused has just advised me that they are not receiving

7 interpretation.

8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I wonder whether

9 the usher would -- yes, so the earphones probably

10 should be changed.

11 Thank you. Counsel Glumac

12 Cross-examined by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac

13 (continued):

14 Q. Good morning Your Honours.

15 We stopped yesterday when we were discussing

16 the village of Miletici and your visit to that

17 village. Can you please tell us what did you see

18 there?

19 A. We arrived at the village and were directed

20 to a particular house where we found that -- well, we

21 entered the house and found a room that had been -- had

22 been destroyed to a certain extent, and there was blood

23 on the floor and on the walls.

24 Q. Did the local population, the people who

25 still remained in the village, tell you what had

Page 4535

1 happened in the village?

2 A. Yes, they did.

3 Q. What did they say?

4 A. We were told that a number of Mujahedin, and

5 if I'm not mistaken, the number was five, had come to

6 the village approximately three days prior to that

7 event. If I remember correctly, it was the 16th of

8 April when the reported murders had occurred, and that

9 they harassed the villagers and basically stayed in

10 that house.

11 We were told that there were -- there were

12 two brothers that lived in that house, and that they

13 were Croatian fighters, and supposedly these Mujahedin

14 were waiting for them to return from a frontline or

15 from somewhere. I think I was told the frontline.

16 We asked them -- oftentimes you can hear the

17 term "Mujahedin" being used as a term for Muslims in

18 general and so on. However, the woman that I spoke

19 with told me that no, these were foreigners, these were

20 definitely foreign Mujahedin, that that wasn't just a

21 term.

22 Q. In your report, the number of people killed

23 is listed as five young Croats. Some of them had been

24 tortured. Does this correspond with the facts that you

25 were able to establish there?

Page 4536

1 A. As far as I remember, yes.

2 Q. It is also mentioned here that 27 out of the

3 34 Croatian inhabitants of the village had fled in fear

4 of those persons. Do you remember that?

5 A. I don't remember the exact numbers, but I

6 remember that this was brought to the attention of

7 British battalion and our attention, because the UNHCR

8 was afraid that the rest of the villagers would leave,

9 creating another humanitarian crisis, and the

10 representative of the UNHCR believed that the situation

11 could be controlled and that -- I believe that she was

12 trying to convince British battalion to go protect the

13 village, and so that she could return -- for some

14 reason I have the number 27 of 37, but more than half

15 of the village had left, if I'm not mistaken.

16 Q. You established, without a shadow of doubt,

17 that the victims were Croats?

18 A. We were told that the village was a Croatian

19 village. I'm not sure if all of the inhabitants were

20 Croat, but we were told it was a Croatian village and

21 the victims were indeed all Croats, and also that -- I

22 think that three of the five were not from the village

23 but the two brothers were from that house. I think

24 that they owned that house, or that was their family

25 home. I'm not really sure about those details.

Page 4537

1 Q. At the time when you visited that area, did

2 you visit other Croatian villages from which Croats had

3 fled? Do you remember anything about that?

4 A. Not in the context of fact finding. We did

5 travel around quite a bit, especially on the first

6 day.

7 Q. Did you visit Zenica? Do you remember?

8 A. Yes, we visited Zenica.

9 Q. Did you notice any problems related to the

10 status of Croats at the time?

11 A. No, not really. Not at that time, no.

12 Q. In your report it is mentioned that arbitrary

13 executions and harassment was perpetrated by the

14 government forces, the BH army, that is, and that there

15 was a risk of reprisals for ethnic cleansing carried

16 out by Croats and Croatian forces against Croatian

17 civilians in cities such as Zenica, and that that risk

18 or that danger was very real.

19 A. I think that --

20 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Whereabouts in

21 the report are you reading from, please,

22 Mrs. Slokovic-Glumac?

23 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Third section,

24 "Conclusions", paragraph 40.

25 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. And the reference --

Page 4538

1 the earlier reference to the five Croats, where is

2 that, please?

3 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: That is in section 2,

4 paragraph 37, on the same page.

5 JUDGE MAY: Referring to the Vitez area.

6 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: No. That's the section

7 entitled "Arbitrary Executions by Government Forces in

8 the Vitez Area.

9 JUDGE MAY: It's not referring to Ahmici

10 itself but to the Vitez area, I think that should be

11 clear.

12 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Yes. But this is the

13 same time period and all the events were happening at

14 the same time, so the Prosecutor is also trying to show

15 us a broader picture and that's what we are trying to

16 do right now.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes. But the reference in this

18 paragraph, so I can follow it, appears to be to

19 Miletici.


21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you.


23 Q. Can you tell me, do you remember this portion

24 or you don't have any knowledge of this, relating to

25 the problems in Zenica that were taking place from the

Page 4539

1 16th onward?

2 A. There were many problems in that area at the

3 time. It wasn't a clear situation. There were

4 reported incidents throughout the valley, as well as

5 many other parts of Bosnia.

6 Q. But your mandate covered the whole of the

7 Lasva Valley as far as I understood. You were supposed

8 to submit a report on the human rights situation in the

9 whole area, not just in Ahmici. You included Vitez,

10 the surrounding area, you even noted down some problems

11 in the Zenica area. So this was -- all of this was

12 part of your mandate at the time. That's the reason

13 why I'm asking you whether you carried out any other

14 investigations?

15 A. Only the two that I mentioned, plus you can

16 see that we included other information that was related

17 to us, to the best of our ability, what we had

18 available at the time. There was also -- I'm not

19 really sure which information was added by

20 Mr. Mazowiecki himself and his staff in Geneva. We

21 tried to cover the situation as much as possible.

22 Q. Did you talk to Colonel Stewart on those

23 days?

24 A. On several occasions.

25 Q. Do you remember the 4th of May, that is

Page 4540

1 before you went to Ahmici, did you talk to Colonel

2 Stewart, you and Mr. Akhavan? That's before you left

3 for Ahmici, when you found that house.

4 A. I may have. I'm sure we talked in passing.

5 We spoke on many occasions. I'm sure we did.

6 Q. Do you remember were journalists with you on

7 that occasion? As far as I understand, they went with

8 you into the village, Andrew Hawke and Dan Damon from

9 Sunday Times. Do you remember?

10 A. There was an occasion when the Colonel was

11 having a meeting with the liaison staff from the two

12 conflicting parties in a house. I think that was the

13 ECMM liaison house, I'm not sure. There was a house

14 that was out of the base that was used for liaison

15 between the local authorities, and just a basic liaison

16 house.

17 We waited in front of that house to speak

18 with the Colonel to see when we would be able to travel

19 to Ahmici. I think that was our purpose for waiting.

20 There were journalists that were in that meeting, then

21 they were excluded from that meeting, they were outside

22 and so on. I remember that they tried to interview us

23 but we were not authorised to give interviews and we

24 told them that we can't be interviewed at all, that

25 we're here just to write a report.

Page 4541

1 Q. All right. After your conversation with the

2 victims that you had met in Zenica, did you supply

3 Colonel Stewart with a list of names or mention some of

4 the people that you talked to, that they claimed that

5 some people had been perpetrators of the crimes in

6 Ahmici? So did you give any names to Colonel Stewart?

7 A. I don't believe so. We discussed at length

8 with his officers, but I don't believe that we gave

9 anything to British battalion. I'm not sure. It's

10 possible that something was handed over, but I don't

11 recollect any piece of paper. It was more of a

12 conversation.

13 Q. Did you write down some of the names that

14 have been mentioned by the people from Ahmici, the

15 refugees? Did you write down those names?

16 A. The names of the perpetrators or the names of

17 the refugees, I'm sorry.

18 Q. Of the perpetrators.

19 A. I don't think so, no.

20 Q. So you state that you did not give any names

21 related to those events to Colonel Stewart?

22 A. No, I don't believe so.

23 Q. Did you, in any way, go to Vitez in those

24 days?

25 A. Yes, we did, as a part of a patrol.

Page 4542

1 Q. Can you tell us, what did you establish

2 there? Did you go to Stari Vitez? Stari Vitez, that's

3 the Muslim part of Vitez?

4 A. Yes, I think it was the first day, the first

5 patrol that was for the benefit of the incoming

6 battalion. That was pointed out to us. We stopped, I

7 think very close to -- there seemed to be a division at

8 some point, a couple of streets, and that -- and we

9 stopped there and some things were pointed out to us.

10 Q. Did you notice any fortifications around

11 Stari Vitez, roadblocks, trenches, bunkers?

12 A. There were -- there were positions. There

13 were positions on several roads. There were armed

14 individuals in many areas, in Vitez and surrounding

15 Vitez.

16 Q. The presence -- you also noted the presence

17 of the BH army soldiers. Can you give us the number of

18 soldiers that you saw in Stari Vitez?

19 A. I don't know if I could. There were -- there

20 were men with weapons at different points. There was

21 one group of four at one place, there was another group

22 of maybe two or three. If I had to estimate how many I

23 saw in total, I probably would have seen as many as, I

24 don't know, 30, maybe 40, but that's just an estimate,

25 I never counted anyone.

Page 4543

1 Q. While you were there and when you visited

2 Stari Vitez, was there any sniper action out of Stari

3 Vitez?

4 A. There were no hostilities at the time, but we

5 were told -- I think when we drove very close to the

6 town and so on, I think the tank commander at that

7 point locked us down. It was an environment that

8 wasn't safe, so we were in a locked tank rather than in

9 something open where we could view.

10 Q. So there was no sniper fire from that area?

11 A. Not when we visited the area, no.

12 Q. Just one more thing regarding the notes that

13 you had with you yesterday, notes from which you read

14 the names of persons which you assumed you had found in

15 [redacted] house. Where did you get those notes?

16 A. Those notes were left, I assume, in my

17 office, and they were given to me by the Prosecution.

18 Q. The notes where you transcribed the contents

19 of the statement from the tape of (redacted) and

20 [redacted], so that's part of those notes; is that

21 correct?

22 A. Those are the notes. Those are the notes of

23 a combination of a transcription, translation and

24 recollection that I put down on paper, as I said, to

25 provide to any individuals who would be conducting a

Page 4544

1 future investigation. I believe that --

2 Q. I apologise for interrupting. This means

3 that notes and the notes with the names of the victims,

4 you got from the Prosecutor. So these are your notes

5 that you received from the Prosecutor; is that

6 correct?

7 A. They're not two separate notes, they're one

8 note. It's one document. I received a copy of this

9 from the Prosecutor, yes.

10 Q. Just a moment. Since the witness has

11 confirmed and authenticated these notes, I don't know

12 why the Defence has not been given a copy so that we

13 see what this is all about. These notes, after all,

14 can have a certain probative value. We think that the

15 Prosecutor should have supplied us with a copy of the

16 notes so that we can see what they are all about.

17 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Moskowitz?

18 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes, Your Honour. Well, it

19 was -- these notes, as we have them, are not statements

20 of any of the witnesses that have testified, because as

21 this witness has indicated, these are his notes and his

22 recollection of what transpired, and contain a sort of

23 combination of his recollection and what he could get

24 off the tapes of those two witnesses. So they're not

25 statements, they certainly were never signed by the

Page 4545

1 witnesses or reviewed by the witnesses. Nor, in our

2 view, were these statements of this witnesses. They

3 were simply his notes of what he recalled having

4 transpired between him and these witnesses. So it

5 appeared to us that this certainly did not fit into any

6 category that required disclosure. They are useful as

7 a diary, or any other document, might be useful to a

8 witness to assist him in recollecting what he, in fact,

9 remembered of these conversations, and that would be, I

10 think, the real focus of his testimony here today, as

11 to what he recollected, and that recollection can be

12 aided by his notes and his typewritten reports.

13 But we've had, I think, several witnesses who

14 have diaries and notes that they used to refresh their

15 recollection and have never been the subject of

16 disclosure, although, we are certainly not opposed to

17 providing those notes as we have them to both the Court

18 and Defence counsel for use in determining the truth of

19 these facts, and to determine the credibility of this

20 witness's recollection.

21 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. So you are prepared to

22 turn over to the Defence and the Court those notes.

23 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Right.

24 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Of course, we will not

25 treat those notes as a statement, but they do have

Page 4546

1 their probative value and a certain weight. Since the

2 Prosecutor has those notes and the witness has

3 authenticated them, I see no reason why the Defence

4 shouldn't be given those notes. Thank you very much.

5 JUDGE CASSESE: So you have decided. So you

6 will hand over to the Defence as soon as possible those

7 notes.

8 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I believe we can do that

9 today, probably later today. Or even now.

10 JUDGE CASSESE: Now, because --


12 JUDGE CASSESE: I think the Defence would

13 need those notes right away, because they go on with

14 the cross-examination and they may have to ask other

15 questions.

16 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, I wanted

17 to say that as well. We would need them while the

18 witness is still here, and we're dealing with names and

19 not witness recollections. So very specific facts that

20 were supplied by other persons. So we need those to

21 determine whether we should ask some other questions in

22 the cross-examination. We would be very grateful if we

23 could receive them now.

24 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. I would suggest that

25 you should now, please, hand over those notes to the

Page 4547

1 Defence, as well as to the Court. And probably we

2 should now suspend the cross-examination of this

3 witness, because otherwise you can't use those notes in

4 continuing in your cross-examination.

5 We could probably bring in another witness

6 while you -- maybe we can resume the cross-examination

7 this afternoon so that you have the opportunity to go

8 through the notes. Would this be acceptable to you,

9 Mr. Moskowitz?

10 MR. MOSKOWITZ: It's certainly acceptable to

11 us, and I would -- I think the witness still has his

12 copy of his notes, but if not, we should provide him a

13 copy so he can also review it.

14 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, of course.

15 MR. MOSKOWITZ: And I will, at this time,

16 hand over -- it's a two-page document, and there is

17 typing on both sides of both pages, so it's basically

18 four pages in total.

19 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. I assume that -- I

20 mean, you may need the lunch break to go through it.

21 So we can't resume the cross-examination before 2.00.

22 Well, I'm sorry for the witness. You will have to stay

23 and -- have you got a copy of your notes?

24 A. Yes, I do, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Thank you. So we

Page 4548

1 can now move on to our next witness, and so if you

2 don't mind, you will come back this afternoon.

3 A. I understand.

4 JUDGE CASSESE: We will go on with the

5 cross-examination, and then re-examination and then

6 probably a few questions from the Court.

7 A. Thank you Your Honour.

8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

9 (The witness withdrew)

10 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, Counsel Pavkovic?

11 MR. PAVKOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

12 Mr. President, perhaps this is right, before the

13 witness is brought in, to do something, rather to

14 comply with my duty. I have the certificates that I

15 spoke about yesterday, and tendered them in English. I

16 now have them in the original. These are the papers

17 concerning the witness Sulejman Kavazovic. So may I

18 ask the usher to take them and give them to the Court

19 and to the Prosecution. I'm talking about those

20 certificates of the post office that were addressed

21 yesterday.

22 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. However, we can't admit

23 them into evidence before the Prosecution has had the

24 opportunity to go through those documents and check

25 whether the translation is accurate. You can tender

Page 4549

1 those documents, but we'll put off until, say, Friday,

2 any decision about their admission into evidence.

3 MR. PAVKOVIC: Right. Yes, all right. Thank

4 you.

5 JUDGE CASSESE: While we are waiting for the

6 next witness, let me deal with a few housekeeping

7 matters. First of all, I wonder whether you have any

8 comments on the draft decision on the visit to Ahmici,

9 particular comments on the rules of conduct.

10 MR. PAVKOVIC: The Defence does not

11 Mr. President.

12 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. No comments. We

13 will issue this decision. As you know, the visit is on

14 unless there is an attack by NATO on Saturday, and we'll

15 have to cancel it at the very last minute. Otherwise, we

16 will go there on next Monday.

17 Now, let me also say that we are, of course,

18 grateful, as I said yesterday, to Counsel Pavkovic and

19 all the other Defence counsel for telling us in advance

20 of Friday of their wish to have a two-month break

21 between the Prosecution and Defence case, and

22 we should reciprocate by letting you know what we have

23 decided.

24 We think that it is in the best interests of

25 justice and of an expeditious trial that we should not

Page 4550

1 have such a long break but only a six-week break, so we

2 would resume on the 30th of November and so have three

3 weeks with the Defence case, three weeks before

4 Christmas, and then we will continue in January, but by

5 mid-February we should finish with this case, because

6 really, it is otherwise -- we are very keen on a speedy

7 trial.

8 I think the Defence would -- should have not

9 more than, say, seven to eight weeks for the Defence

10 case? So -- now, the Prosecutor had 34 working days.

11 There will be 37, probably. So roughly it's the

12 equivalent of seven, eight weeks.

13 Another piece of information that might be

14 interesting and useful to you before the Pre-Defence

15 conference, to be held on Friday, we have also decided

16 about the order in which the various witnesses should

17 be called by each Defence counsel, and we will follow

18 the order of the indictees listed in the indictment.

19 So first of all the witnesses for Zoran

20 Kupreskic, then Mirjan and so on. So, Counsel Radovic,

21 you will be the first one. It is more orderly and

22 better organised if each counsel knows in advance when

23 he will have to call his witness.

24 Yes, please, Counsel Radovic, please.

25 MR. RADOVIC: Thank you for the first place.

Page 4551

1 I should merely like to say that my witnesses and my

2 learned friend's witnesses are all combined. We shall

3 have a number of joint witnesses, so you can put the

4 two of us in one package so to speak. We should like

5 to question our witnesses together. I mean, most of

6 them. Especially those questions which relate to

7 persecution. There are some questions which may

8 perhaps refer solely to Mirjan, but most of our

9 witnesses will testify in favour of both our accused.

10 As I have already taken the floor, there will

11 be very many witnesses but some of them shall be very

12 brief. For instance, that tape which the Prosecution

13 admitted -- I mean, [redacted] in the hospital, we ask

14 the Prosecution to try to get the authentic tape so

15 that we can really see the whole interview from

16 beginning to end. We have not yet been answered that

17 by the Prosecution, whether they can do it and it would

18 be very important for us, because if we could see the

19 whole tape then we would not need any witnesses who saw

20 that particular programme in toto, and who know all

21 that [redacted] said. So if we had precise

22 information about that, perhaps we might give up some

23 of the witnesses, refrain from calling some of the

24 witnesses.

25 Besides, we shall not be able to examine our

Page 4552

1 witnesses as long as the Prosecution did, because we

2 were not able to technically follow old examinations

3 and old witnesses as the Prosecution were much worse

4 (sic) equipped. We shall do our best to match the

5 Prosecution but we simply don't have all these

6 technical facilities at our disposal. But we should

7 like to hear from the Prosecution if they could lay

8 their hands on the whole tape, that is the tape of the

9 whole programme. Thank you very much.

10 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes, Your Honour, and

11 Mr. Radovic, we have not ignored that request to try to

12 find the whole tape, and I anticipate that Mr. Tucker,

13 will be here later this week, the investigator, will

14 provide information about the whereabouts of that

15 tape. I know that he has made efforts to locate an

16 entire version, if there is an additional version to be

17 had, and has made inquiries and can report on what he

18 found when he testifies perhaps tomorrow or the next

19 day.

20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. All right. Let

21 me explain to you what is going on. We are now calling

22 the Court witness that we mentioned yesterday, but we

23 were told that because of a fire that broke out this

24 morning in her hotel she was a bit under shock, but

25 it's nothing to do with our hearing, so she will come

Page 4553

1 here. We asked her to calm down. We have decided that

2 somebody from the unit for protection of victims and

3 witnesses should sit in court within sight so she feels

4 a bit better, and then we will proceed. So in a few

5 seconds or minutes she will be here. She will be

6 witness CA. Yes, please.

7 Good morning, Witness CA.

8 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

9 JUDGE CASSESE: Can you please stand and read

10 the solemn declaration?

11 THE WITNESS: I am sorry, but I -- I'm not

12 literate. I can't read. Last time somebody read it

13 for me and he translated, and I then repeated words

14 after him.

15 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. We will do so.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Witness CA, I'll read it to

17 you and if you can just repeat, please. I will

18 solemnly declare.

19 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare.

20 THE REGISTRAR: That I will speak the truth.

21 THE WITNESS: That I will speak the truth.

22 THE REGISTRAR: The whole truth.

23 THE WITNESS: The whole truth.

24 THE REGISTRAR: And nothing but the truth.

25 THE WITNESS: And nothing the but the truth.

Page 4554

1 JUDGE CASSESE: We should go into closed

2 session, because the witness requested we go into

3 closed session.

4 (Closed session)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4555













13 Pages 4555 to 4662 redacted in closed session











24 (Open Session)

25 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Just to announce a slight

Page 4663

1 change in our remaining order, number 4, yes, will be

2 testifying next, Your Honour. After number 4 we plan

3 to put on number 7 because it involves the same kind of

4 evidence, and we felt it would be more logical to put

5 it in that record. Number 6, by the way, Your Honour,

6 is -- can only testify on Thursday because of his

7 commitments with the military. Then number 8 will be

8 available virtually -- would be available tomorrow, or

9 the next day.

10 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Thank you. I was

11 wondering whether we could try to finish by Thursday

12 afternoon so that on Friday morning we could hold the

13 pre-Defence conference.

14 MR. MOSKOWITZ: We feel that would be very

15 possible.

16 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. So we could have the

17 Friday afternoon off to prepare to go to Ahmici.

18 (The witness entered court).

19 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon. Will you

20 please make the solemn declaration?

21 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

22 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

23 truth.

24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

25 seated.

Page 4664

1 WITNESS: Stephen Hughes

2 Examined by Mr. Terrier:

3 Q. Good afternoon, witness. Could you state

4 your identity, your full name to the Court and tell

5 when you were born?

6 A. My name is Stephen Hughes, and I was born on

7 the 19th of March, 1958.

8 Q. You were in Bosnia in 1993 as a member of the

9 UNPROFOR. Could you tell the Court what your military

10 career has been like?

11 A. I started my military career in 1974, and

12 retired recently in March 1998, serving 23 years and 6

13 months. The career has been varied, deployed to

14 various areas around the world, and I have been or was

15 promoted through the ranks to obtain my final rank of

16 Warrant Officer Class 2.

17 Q. When did you find yourself in Bosnia and

18 Herzegovina?

19 A. Between November 1992 to May 1993.

20 Q. When were you stationed in Vitez?

21 A. I was stationed in Vitez from November 1992

22 until late December 1992. We then moved to Tuzla, and

23 then in February 1993 we came back to Vitez and

24 remained there until we left Bosnia on May 1993.

25 Q. Let us look at this period in the beginning

Page 4665

1 of 1993. Could you tell the Court what your position

2 was then within the BRITBAT and what your various

3 missions were?

4 A. My position at that time, I was battalion

5 commander of 2 battalion, A company of the Cheshire

6 Regiment, and our mission at that stage was to assist

7 in the humanitarian aid that needed to be delivered to

8 various locations within Bosnia-Herzegovina.

9 Q. I will first ask you to tell the Court what

10 your recollection is of the 16th of April, 1993.

11 A. My recollection of that date was the

12 intensified fighting around the main Vitez area.

13 Q. On that day you were in Vitez; weren't you?

14 A. On that day, we were tasked, yes, to enter

15 into Vitez, due to the fact that there had been a large

16 explosion, and I was tasked to go into the centre of

17 Vitez to try and gain information to what the situation

18 was within Vitez itself.

19 Q. And on the basis of what you noticed, what

20 was the situation within Vitez on the 16th of April,

21 1993?

22 A. The situation was that by moving around the

23 area we formulated the opinion that the old town as we

24 called the part of Vitez, was under attack from HVO

25 forces.

Page 4666

1 Q. Were you able to notice any fighting among

2 hostile military units, opposing military units?

3 A. Upon entering Vitez there was fire. We did

4 notice -- or I noticed one wounded civilian crawling

5 along the road. I then moved into the centre of Vitez

6 to the area of the Vitez Hotel, moved south and then

7 along the road moving west, and I noticed in the small

8 built-up area a number of soldiers moving towards the

9 old part of Vitez. These soldiers were moving in what

10 we would call fire and manoeuvre. At this stage they

11 didn't seem to be firing but were moving in an

12 aggressive nature, again towards the old part of

13 Vitez.

14 Q. Those soldiers, which army did they belong

15 to?

16 A. Obviously from the direction they were moving

17 and the direction they were moving in, it was

18 recognised that they were HVO.

19 Q. When you mentioned the old town of Vitez, do

20 you have the Muslim part, the Muslim neighbourhood in

21 mind?

22 A. Yes. We call that the old part of Vitez, the

23 Muslim area.

24 Q. On that day in Vitez did you notice any

25 opposition to the HVO soldiers?

Page 4667

1 A. Not really. We quickly moved around and

2 eventually I was placed in a static position near the

3 mosque in old Vitez, and there I remained until we

4 decided to try and evacuate as many people from the

5 situation as we could. However, listening to the radio

6 traffic, I could understand from other call-signs that

7 they were trying to put themselves in positions to stop

8 the attack on the old part of Vitez.

9 Q. At that time what did you think of what was

10 happening in Vitez?

11 A. On assessing the situation, I would say that

12 there was a concerted effort from the HVO to move and

13 take over the old part of Vitez.

14 Q. I'd like us to move to the next day, the

15 following day, the day -- the 17th of April, 1993.

16 Is it right to say that on that day you went

17 to Nadioci where the Bungalow or what is called the

18 Swiss Cottage is to be found?

19 A. Yes, that is correct. I was tasked out that

20 day to move into the area of the Bungalow, and also the

21 area of Putis Jelinak. At this point I'd stopped on

22 the road away from the area of the Bungalow, and I

23 happened to be observing to the south, the high ground

24 to the south of my position, when I noticed, or what I

25 believed to be, an anti-aircraft weapon on the high

Page 4668

1 ground.

2 Initially it was difficult to be a hundred

3 per cent sure it was an anti-tank -- or, I'm sorry, an

4 anti-aircraft weapon. I tried looking through normal

5 binoculars. Again, it didn't give me a hundred

6 per cent that it was. At that stage I decided to

7 traverse the turret on the vehicle and use the

8 gunsight, which has a better magnification. Again, at

9 this stage it became a little bit clearer, but I

10 wouldn't say, again, is that stage that it was a

11 hundred per cent, and there was still doubts.

12 However, whilst observing, I saw people

13 approach what I believed to be the anti-aircraft weapon

14 which was situated on what I would call a flatbed

15 trailer, a trailer with no sides. They mounted on to

16 the anti-aircraft gun and fired between three to six

17 rounds in what we would call the direct role towards

18 the west.

19 It was also at this stage that whilst

20 observing the area, I noticed two men sat on the

21 hillside observing towards the west. One had

22 binoculars, and the other one, I believe, had a large

23 radio.

24 Whilst observing these two men, I heard what

25 we call the report of either mortar or artillery being

Page 4669

1 fired from behind the hill.

2 Whilst observing, we then saw a vehicle move

3 from the location of the anti-aircraft gun and move

4 down the hill, and we tracked this as it came down. It

5 eventually stopped at our location, and it was gestured

6 to us that we should turn our gun away from pointing to

7 the high ground where the position of the anti-aircraft

8 gun was. We did this, and the jeep then proceeded down

9 the road and returned to the Bungalow.

10 Q. Would you be able to give us a summary

11 description of that Bungalow? What did that Bungalow

12 look like?

13 A. From the outside, as you look at the

14 Bungalow, it had a very steep roof. The roof looked as

15 though it started from ground level and went straight

16 up to an apex. At the base of the building was a small

17 veranda, and halfway up the building looked to be a

18 small balcony, and just above that looked again to be

19 another small balcony. There was a very large door at

20 the front. When you entered the Bungalow, on the

21 left-hand side was a brick fireplace, an arched

22 fireplace. In either the middle or to one side, I

23 think to the right, was a table of some sort, which I

24 believe at the time to have been a pool table. To the

25 rear and left was a small bar area, and right at the

Page 4670

1 rear were stairs leading up to the upper floors. The

2 interior of the building was wood panelling.

3 Q. Could the usher show you Exhibit 119, P119?

4 A building can be seen in the background. Is

5 that the Bungalow you've just been speaking about?

6 A. Yes, that's the Bungalow.

7 Q. Could the usher show you this document?

8 There are no markings nor highlighting on this

9 document.

10 THE REGISTRAR: This will be marked P293.


12 Q. Witness, could you explain what this

13 represents?

14 A. This paperwork represents the radio log which

15 is kept in the operations room, and it logs all radio

16 traffic that is sent over the air.

17 Q. And on the top left corner we have the date,

18 haven't we? And then the times of radio traffic, as

19 well as the call-signs of the various people who were

20 intervening. What was your call-sign, your personal

21 call-sign?

22 A. My personal call-sign was Romeo Two Zero.

23 Q. Does this document show that on that day you

24 reported to your headquarters, to the Ops room, you

25 reported what you had witnessed in Nadioci, what you

Page 4671

1 just told us about?

2 A. Yes. The document actually states, in the

3 text, the times that I called the Ops room and informed

4 them of the situation.

5 Q. Could you tell us at what time you called the

6 Ops room?

7 A. The time was 15.39.

8 Q. Yes, you wanted to say something?

9 A. Just obviously further down is the second

10 message, which again was transmitted at 16.09.

11 Q. Thank you. In the aerial photograph which is

12 behind you, are you able to localise the place where

13 the Bungalow was built? Could you tell us where this

14 anti-aircraft piece of ordinance was in this

15 photograph? Maybe outside the field of this

16 photograph, but where the anti-aircraft gun was?

17 A. (Indicating). Up on the high ground, as it

18 would be on the photograph itself.

19 Q. So to the south, since, you know, it's upside

20 down. The photograph is upside down. So it's south

21 the place.

22 Could you now tell us what this gun was

23 targeting, what the target was?

24 A. At that stage all I knew was that it was

25 firing towards the west, but looking at the map and

Page 4672

1 taking what we would call a ground appreciation from

2 the map, which gave the gun limited arcs. It would

3 fire -- if I could show you on the air photograph.

4 (Indicating)

5 Q. Sir, you are showing Lower Ahmici, which was

6 targeting on either side of the main road; is that

7 right?

8 A. (No audible response).

9 Q. What were you able to see inside the

10 Bungalow?

11 A. When I went into the Bungalow with the ECMM

12 monitor -- is that --

13 Q. Well, let us first stick to the 17th of

14 April, 1993. Did you go inside the Bungalow on that

15 day?

16 A. No, not on that day.

17 Q. What did you see on that day from outside the

18 Bungalow?

19 A. On that day, especially returning from the

20 location I'd been observing from back to Vitez, the

21 jeep that came down the hill was parked there, and also

22 there was a number of HVO soldiers on the lower

23 veranda.

24 Q. Could you tell us what uniforms they were in

25 and what weapons they carried?

Page 4673

1 A. The majority were in full camouflage uniform,

2 both jacket and trousers. The majority, again, had

3 AK-47 assault rifles, and I would say there were maybe

4 one or two wearing black tops.

5 Q. When did you go inside the Bungalow?

6 A. I went inside the Bungalow with the ECMM

7 monitor, and the -- I think the date was the 22nd. I

8 may be wrong. Dates are difficult for me to remember,

9 but we went in with that gentleman, an interpreter, and

10 the HVO commander.

11 Q. What is your recollection of your going into

12 the Bungalow? What did you see at that time?

13 A. On entering the Bungalow, there was maybe 15

14 HVO soldiers. We entered the Bungalow. Both

15 commanders, with the monitor, stood round a table and

16 obviously were discussing the situation regarding the

17 cease-fire. Again, we were in there for maybe 10, 15

18 minutes, and the situation changed drastically, which I

19 believe at that stage cut short the meeting and we had

20 to move outside.

21 Q. And why did the situation change

22 dramatically?

23 A. One soldier came in. He seemed to be

24 hysterical, waving a pistol around. At that time, not

25 being next to the interpreter, the only indication that

Page 4674

1 I got was that the majority of his anger was directed

2 towards myself, and was -- the only word I could

3 understand was UNPROFOR. I call the interpreter over,

4 and he explained to me that this particular individual

5 said that his family had been killed and that UNPROFOR

6 had stood by and watched and done nothing about that.

7 Again, at this stage, he left the building

8 and went down to the second vehicle and tried to enter

9 the second vehicle, which at that point had the BiH

10 commanders in. At that stage he was finally

11 restrained, taken away. Due to that situation, we all

12 returned to the vehicles and then continued on with the

13 tasks that day.

14 Q. What is your recollection of the HVO

15 commanders you saw on that day in the Bungalow?

16 A. They obviously were discussing the positions

17 which they had occupied, and no doubt were discussing

18 the positions that were going to be visited that day by

19 the monitor.

20 Q. Could the witness be shown a very short clip

21 of the video Exhibit P253 which has already been

22 displayed to the judges. It lasts 10 to 15 seconds.

23 And, witness, I shall ask you to have a close look at

24 this short segment. I don't think that you've had the

25 opportunity to see it before, and I shall ask you

Page 4675

1 whether you can identify the location where this was

2 taken, to start with, and then I'll ask you whether you

3 are able to identify any of the people you may see in

4 these pictures.

5 (Videotape played)


7 Q. Witness, were you able to identify the

8 location where these pictures were taken, where this

9 video was shot?

10 A. Looking at the video, and especially the

11 interior, to me it would be the interior of the

12 Bungalow.

13 Q. Are you a hundred per cent sure, or is it

14 just a hypothesis?

15 A. I would be a hundred per cent sure.

16 Q. You saw faces. Were you able to identify any

17 of them?

18 A. There was two people in the video that I

19 recognise.

20 Q. When did you see them? When did you see

21 these people?

22 A. It would be difficult to say when it was that

23 I'd seen these people, but, you know, their faces do

24 stick in my mind. It is difficult to put a time, date

25 and place.

Page 4676

1 Q. Would you be able to give a physical

2 description of these two individuals?

3 A. Yes, the first one is fairly large build,

4 he's chubby in the face, slightly receding hair,

5 darkish skin. The second one I would say again was

6 sort of medium height, again heavy sort of build, dark

7 hair but bald on the top.

8 Q. Looking at the people here in this courtroom,

9 would you be able to recognise either of these two

10 individuals?

11 A. I can't see him. I can't see who is behind

12 the pillar.

13 JUDGE CASSESE: Why don't you stand and --

14 you can move around.


16 Q. Yes, you can move. You have to move, because

17 indeed, this pillar is in your way.

18 A. Yes. No, not.

19 Q. Thank you. Let us move on to another day

20 during your tour in Bosnia in the area of Vitez -- let

21 us speak of the 20th of April?

22 JUDGE CASSESE: Could we have a break maybe?

23 MR. TERRIER: As you wish.

24 JUDGE CASSESE: For 20 minutes.

25 --- Recess taken at 4.10 p.m.

Page 4677

1 --- On resuming at 4.33 p.m.


3 Q. Witness, you could us please tell the Court

4 what happened on the 28th of April, 1993? You spent

5 most of the day in Stari Vitez because there was a

6 burial there, wasn't there?

7 A. Yes, that is correct. On that day the task

8 given to me was to move into Stari Vitez and assist in

9 the transfer of dead bodies between Stari Vitez and the

10 school in Vitez. We met up and removed three bodies

11 from the area of Stari Vitez. We also picked up a

12 large vehicle and trailer, and from that point we

13 escorted the party to the school inside Vitez itself.

14 On arrival at the school, there was a vehicle

15 already parked outside the school, which they proceeded

16 to open the doors, which had already been loaded with a

17 number of bodies wrapped in clear plastic bags. Again,

18 it was at this stage then that the three bodies that

19 were brought in from the area of Stari Vitez were taken

20 into the school, and then the -- or they proceeded then

21 to remove the bodies from the gymnasium within the

22 school and place them onto the transport.

23 At the time this was happening, an engineer

24 vehicle, a light-wheel tractor, or bulldozer as it's

25 commonly known, was in the Stari Vitez area preparing

Page 4678

1 to dig a mass grave.

2 Once the bodies had been loaded onto the

3 transport, we then proceeded to escort the transport to

4 the field and remain in location until the proceedings

5 of burying the dead were complete.

6 Q. Is it accurate to say that dead bodies of

7 Croats were being swapped against Muslim bodies?

8 A. Yes, that is correct.

9 Q. How many Croat bodies were there?

10 A. Three.

11 Q. And how many Muslim bodies?

12 A. I don't know the exact number, but it was put

13 to me approximately 96.

14 Q. And where were the Croat bodies, as it were,

15 if I may use that expression, where were the bodies of

16 former Croats? Where were they to be found?

17 A. The one was found in a garage in, as I say,

18 the Muslim area, or Stari Vitez, and the other two were

19 actually brought out from the northern part of Stari

20 Vitez, onto the main road where the lorry and trailer

21 were waiting, and placed onto the vehicle.

22 Q. They were not on the same location?

23 A. No.

24 Q. In respect of the bodies that were presented

25 to you as being bodies of Muslims, do you know who had

Page 4679

1 collected those bodies and where they came from?

2 A. No. At that point there was no indication to

3 us as who had collected the bodies and where exactly

4 they'd come from. We only assumed, due to the

5 situation, that the bodies had been collected from

6 around the region of Vitez.

7 Q. Well, when you say "around Vitez", in your

8 mind does that include Ahmici?

9 A. Yes, that would include Ahmici. Within

10 Vitez, over that period of time, the number of bodies

11 that we did see was limited, but as you moved out of

12 Vitez, going east, there were, again, a number of

13 bodies lying on roadsides and in doorways of

14 buildings. So we presumed from that that these bodies

15 had been collected from the outlining villages which

16 could include Ahmici.

17 Q. Now, could this exhibit be shown in this

18 order? These are ten photographs. Could the usher

19 help us?

20 Your Honour, all these photographs were taken

21 on the 28th of April, 1993 in Stari Vitez. They were

22 taken by Mr. Penfound. This was will be confirmed by

23 the witness. He was an officer in the British

24 battalion.

25 Is that right?

Page 4680

1 A. Yes, that is correct.

2 Q. Whilst we're waiting for the first photograph

3 to be shown, let me ask you this question: As going to

4 be seen in these photographs, the bodies were wrapped

5 in clear plastic bags. Were you, therefore, able to

6 see whether they were soldiers who had been killed in

7 combat or were there civilian bodies?

8 A. Yes. Due to the nature of the way they were

9 wrapped in the polythene bags, you could see by the

10 clothing that I would say of all the bodies that I'd

11 seen, which is, as I say, the 96, I only saw two that

12 were wearing a camouflage jacket. The remainder were

13 civilians, both male, female of varying age groups.

14 Q. Do you remember seeing bodies of babies, of

15 children among those bodies?

16 A. When we got to the field in Stari Vitez and

17 they proceeded to initially lay the bodies on the grass

18 prior to placing them into the grave, the purpose of

19 this was so that they could try and identify who the

20 body was. I saw two small, as you would say, packages

21 or -- there were two small lying next -- or beginning

22 of the line of bodies.

23 I approached. You couldn't see into the

24 plastic, because obviously the size of the package, it

25 was obviously wrapped quite a few times.

Page 4681

1 My initial thought was that it was children,

2 but a local sort of gestured to me through body

3 language, et cetera, that it was the heads from

4 decapitated bodies. However, it couldn't be proved

5 that that was the case. But I would say, you know, on

6 reflection, that more than likely it was children.

7 Q. Among those bodies, bodies of Muslims, did

8 you note bodies of elderly people?

9 A. Yes. As I say, there was -- it covered all

10 age groups. There were old, very old people, both

11 male, female, teenagers, middle 20s, middle 30s. So it

12 was a vast range of age groups.

13 Q. Did you notice or did you get any clues as to

14 the way these people had been killed?

15 A. The only clues that we had is that when the

16 bodies were picked up is due to the fact that they were

17 in plastic bags, that the large amounts of blood would

18 go to the bottom of the bag, so, therefore, it would

19 indicate to me that in that situation that they had

20 died of some sort of gun-shot wound.

21 Q. On that location in Stari Vitez, this

22 bulldozer of the BRITBAT dug two graves, didn't it?

23 A. (No audible answer)

24 Q. How long did this operation, all the digging

25 and all the burial ritual, how long did that take?

Page 4682

1 A. The ritual of the burying took from, I would

2 say, early afternoon through to early evening. Near

3 the very end it was starting to get dark.

4 Q. Did -- were all the bodies buried in those

5 graves identified with certainty?

6 A. As far as I'm aware, due to the fact that I

7 was not involved in that detail, again I was there to

8 offer assurance to the people carrying out that

9 particular task, which were the Muslim people

10 themselves, we were there, as I say, to protect them in

11 case they come under any form of attack.

12 MR. TERRIER: Please, usher, could you put

13 the first photograph on the ELMO? Please do.

14 JUDGE CASSESE: If I understood properly, the

15 witness did not answer your question. He may not have

16 understood your question the way you put it. You asked

17 him whether they had been identified, and --

18 MR. TERRIER: You're right, Your Honour. I'm

19 going to put the question again.

20 Q. Witness, do you know whether somebody was

21 able to identify all of the bodies that were buried on

22 that day?

23 A. As far as I can answer, that there were a

24 number of people and they were opening the bags, and as

25 I could see it at that time, the bodies did have labels

Page 4683

1 attached to them, which I believe was their

2 identification. However, because I was not directly

3 involved with the identification and the direct burying

4 of the bodies, I can only surmise that there could have

5 been people that were buried that day who were not able

6 to identify.

7 Q. Could you please have a look at this first

8 photograph and give us some comment, brief comment?

9 Where was this photograph taken? What does it show?

10 THE REGISTRAR: This is Exhibit 303.

11 A. Yes. The picture that I'm looking at now was

12 taken at the school in the middle of Vitez. It's

13 the -- that particular vehicle was already in location

14 when we arrived and had -- already had a number of

15 bodies placed onto it. This photograph is indicating

16 that they're continuing to fill the vehicle. This was

17 the first vehicle to move off from the school to the

18 field and be unloaded.


20 Q. Sir, this is the loading of the bodies which

21 was then transported to Stari Vitez; is that right?

22 A. Yes, that is correct.

23 Q. Well, most of the people who can be seen in

24 this photograph are wearing masks. Why are they

25 wearing masks?

Page 4684

1 A. Due to, again, the time of year, the weather,

2 which the heat makes a big difference. It was the

3 actual smell of the dead bodies.

4 MR. TERRIER: Can you show the second

5 photograph?

6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 302.


8 Q. Could you tell what this photograph shows and

9 where it was taken?

10 A. Yes. The photograph shows the unloading of

11 the first vehicle which we'd seen on the previous

12 photograph, and this is taking place in the field in

13 Stari Vitez where they initially lined the bodies up so

14 that they could try and identify them.

15 MR. TERRIER: Could you show the next

16 photograph?



19 Q. This is the operation which was to identify

20 the bodies, as you stated before; is that right?

21 A. Yes, that is correct. From what I could see

22 from the procedures, again, as indicated within the

23 photograph, is one individual would try to find the tag

24 to identify the victim whilst, as you can again see in

25 the photograph, another member wrote down the necessary

Page 4685

1 details.

2 MR. TERRIER: The next photograph, please.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 300.


5 Q. In this photograph it can be seen -- what

6 I'll call a bag was opened. Were the bags opened?

7 A. Yes. In a lot of cases the bags were

8 opened. Again, from earlier on, from what I could see,

9 is that the individual bodies were actually tagged

10 themselves. So the tag was actually inside fastened to

11 the body or clothing and not fastened to the plastic

12 bag.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 299.


15 Q. So this is a general view of the burial site;

16 is that right?

17 A. Yes, that is correct.

18 Q. Can this bulldozer, the BRITBAT bulldozer, be

19 seen in the photograph? I mean, the bulldozer that was

20 used to dig the graves.

21 A. Yes. It can be seen to the left of the

22 photograph.

23 THE REGISTRAR: This is Exhibit 298.


25 Q. Is this one of the graves dug by the BRITBAT

Page 4686

1 vehicle?

2 A. Yes, that is correct.

3 Q. Are these the first bodies that were put into

4 the grave?

5 A. At that stage it looks to me that, yes, it's

6 the first bodies to be placed into the mass grave.

7 Q. One can see that the plastic bags placed in

8 this common grave are of various sizes. I see the

9 second, starting from the bottom, it seems to be a very

10 short bag. Do you remember that one in particular or

11 other of similar sizes?

12 A. Yes, I remember others of similar sizes.

13 That could have been one that I had seen. Again,

14 because of the smallness of the -- whether it's the

15 body, as I say, it's wrapped so many times with the

16 plastic that at that stage you couldn't see into it.

17 And as I say, initially that's why I inquired to see if

18 it was a small child.

19 Q. Would that be that of a small child, or what

20 could it have been?

21 A. My assumption, eventually, is that -- though

22 I was initially told that it was the head of a

23 decapitated body, the package was too big for a head.

24 So as I say, my later conclusion was that they were --

25 it was the body of a small child.

Page 4687

1 MR. TERRIER: Next photograph, please.

2 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 297.


4 Q. So is this the same burial ceremony being

5 carried on?

6 A. Yes, it's the same burial ceremony.

7 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 296.


9 Q. Do you want to make any comments on this

10 photograph? This is the same common grave and the same

11 operation?

12 A. As I say, this went on for the remainder of

13 the afternoon into early evening. By this stage,

14 though we were still located at the field, we moved

15 away from the proceedings, as we felt that it wasn't

16 right for us to be looking on as sort of bystanders.

17 So I made a decision to move my people away so that

18 they could get on with the proceedings.

19 Q. Was there a Imam organising the ceremony?

20 A. Yes. Later on in the proceedings, as you

21 look at the photograph, I would say they were more to

22 the right, and there was a group who were praying and

23 going through what are, you know, the procedures that

24 they sort of go through.

25 Q. Were there a lot of people gathered on that

Page 4688

1 site for the burial?

2 A. Yes, there was quite a few people at the

3 site, but I think that the overall control by the

4 Muslims themselves, obviously they didn't want the

5 whole place to be saturated, so again, I think they

6 sort of controlled the situation so that the people

7 that were there were there for the reasons of the

8 proceedings rather than as onlookers.

9 Q. Did you notice that there were families

10 present?

11 A. Not at that stage. As I say, we sort of

12 stayed away from it and continued to observe mainly

13 away from the burial site, due to the fact, again, I

14 felt that, you know, we were there for the reason of

15 observing out and giving them protection again because

16 of the situation. They felt uneasy, that they could be

17 sniped upon. So, as I say, our role was there just to

18 be in the vicinity as a presence. So that was the

19 decision I decided to take, is that we would move away

20 and be seen to be doing the job that we were tasked to

21 do that day.

22 MR. TERRIER: Can we see the next photograph,

23 please?

24 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit number

25 295.

Page 4689


2 Q. So this is the same proceedings going on,

3 being carried further; is that right?

4 A. Yes, that is correct. It was a long

5 procedure, as I say, due to the fact that they first

6 had to unload the bodies, line them out on the grass,

7 identify, where possible, who they were before they

8 could be placed in position in the mass grave.

9 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 294.


11 Q. Does this photograph show the two parallel

12 mass graves after they had been filled, of course?

13 A. Yes. Initially one was dug. As soon as that

14 was completed they carried on with a second, so

15 eventually there was two mass graves dug on the site.

16 MR. TERRIER: Thank you very much. I have no

17 further questions for this witness, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

19 MR. TERRIER: I shall merely ask that

20 Exhibits 293 to 3 -- wait a minute -- be tendered into

21 evidence. I'll give you the numbers right now. 303.

22 JUDGE CASSESE: We were planning to go on

23 until quarter past five. So, Mr. Pavkovic, could you

24 tell us whether you have a lot of questions to ask of

25 this witness? Do the Defence counsel plan to ask a lot

Page 4690

1 of questions?

2 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, true, I do not

3 know how many questions my colleagues will have, but my

4 learned friend, Radovic, has already indicated that he

5 would like to cross-examine this witness.

6 JUDGE CASSESE: Shall we have a start,

7 Counsel Radovic? Shall we start now for 15 minutes and

8 then we'll adjourn until tomorrow, or do you prefer to

9 start tomorrow morning?

10 MR. RADOVIC: I'd rather if we started

11 tomorrow morning if possible, yes.

12 JUDGE CASSESE: We'll adjourn now until

13 tomorrow at 9.30 then.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

15 5.05 p.m. to be reconvened on Wednesday,

16 the 14th day of October, 1998 at

17 9:30 a.m.