1. 1 Wednesday, 17th February, 1999

    2 (The accused entered court)

    3 (The witness entered court)

    4 (Open session)

    5 --- Upon commencing at 9:00 a.m.

    6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning Your Honours.

    7 Case number IT-95-16-T. The Prosector versus Zoran

    8 Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago

    9 Josipovic, Dragan Papic and Vladimir Santic.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Counsel Par.

    11 MR. PAR: Good morning, Your Honour. Before

    12 we begin, I would like to ask your leave to hand over

    13 the photocopies of the exhibits I did not have

    14 yesterday, and to ask if they be taken into evidence.

    15 Usher, please.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Now, while these documents

    17 are being distributed, let me tell Counsel Susak that

    18 it has been drawn to my attention that he had filed a

    19 motion on the 19th of November, '98 and there was a

    20 mishap. I don't know how it and why it -- and the way

    21 it got lost, but now I have a copy in front of me and

    22 we will take action immediately. So today or tomorrow

    23 we will grant this motion. Remember your motion of 19

    24 November that we should ask the Ministry of

    25 Bosnia-Herzegovina to produce (redacted)

  2. 1 (redacted). We will grant it.

    2 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Your Honour.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Is there any objection from

    4 the Prosecution?

    5 MR. TERRIER: No.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: So they are admitted into

    7 evidence. Thank you. You are now in a position to

    8 continue.

    9 Counsel Puliselic, sorry.

    10 MR. PULISELIC: I only wanted to ask the

    11 usher, we have translated the page from the booklet,

    12 the record of employment from yesterday, which Your

    13 Honour requested the complete translation. So I would

    14 like to hand it over now.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel

    16 Puliselic. So this will be now inserted in that

    17 booklet in the relevant document which has been

    18 completed now, admitted into evidence as a whole,

    19 including this page. Thank you.

    20 We are now in a position to move on, and I

    21 will ask Mr. Terrier to continue with this

    22 cross-examination.

    23 WITNESS: GORAN PAPIC (Resumed)

    24 Cross-examined by Mr. Terrier:

    25 Q. Good morning, Mr. President, good morning

  3. 1 Your Honours, good morning witness. I would like to

    2 first of all ask the usher to show to the witness the

    3 document we were showing to him yesterday during

    4 cross-examination, before we adjourned. I believe it

    5 is document 351.

    6 Sir, yesterday we came across a problem

    7 dealing with the signatures located in this log, on one

    8 of the pages of this log. You looked at the signature

    9 and you said that perhaps it was your signature, but

    10 perhaps also it was not a forgery. In order to resolve

    11 this particular problem, I am going to produce for you

    12 the original of this document. I am going to ask the

    13 usher to show you the original after having shown it

    14 first to Your Honours and also to the members of the

    15 Defence.

    16 Witness, please hold onto this log for the

    17 time period. Have you had the opportunity to look at

    18 the section we mentioned yesterday?

    19 A. Yes, I've looked at it.

    20 Q. Is the signature that is placed in reference

    21 to your own name, is it your own? Do you recognise it?

    22 A. Yes, this is my signature.

    23 Q. Sir, this document was established for the

    24 payment for the months served in the HVO, and in

    25 particular within military units of the HVO. Does the

  4. 1 information in regard to your name dealing with the

    2 time in which you served as part of the HVO and within

    3 the armed services of the HVO, are those entries

    4 correct?

    5 A. I don't know. I think that this information

    6 was put in for everyone from the beginning of the war,

    7 regardless of when they actually were called up and

    8 joined a unit. It was put in from the beginning of the

    9 war for everyone, I think. I don't remember when I

    10 signed this.

    11 Q. You don't remember the date in which you

    12 signed this document, but do you recall the

    13 circumstances under which you signed this document and

    14 why you signed this document?

    15 A. Well, I think that I signed it precisely

    16 because -- well, it's possible because of the payment.

    17 I don't know. I really don't remember when I signed

    18 this.

    19 Q. Do you recall whether or not you were paid?

    20 A. No, I wasn't paid because I didn't serve in

    21 the regular army, so all this -- to avoid having

    22 military service after the war, I think they put this

    23 into my regular army service record. I really don't

    24 remember this.

    25 Q. Would you please specify whether, when you

  5. 1 signed this document, whether you were accompanied by

    2 your brother, Dragan, because the two entries follow

    3 one another, two are very close to one another on that

    4 page.

    5 A. I don't remember when I signed this

    6 document. It must have been a long time ago, and I

    7 don't remember -- I don't remember either when I signed

    8 it or that Dragan was there. I have no idea.

    9 Q. You said that it was a very long time ago,

    10 but it seems to me that this signature, since it

    11 concerns you, is after January, 1996, so it's not so

    12 long ago as one might think.

    13 A. It's possible that the signature was put

    14 there because of my military service, which I had to

    15 do, so the fact that I was mobilised in late 1993 was

    16 made use of. And I think that the date was -- for the

    17 beginning of the war was put in because it was put in

    18 for everybody.

    19 Q. Sir, I am sorry, I feel I don't really

    20 understand your explanation. I am going to try to

    21 clarify, which I think is a very important point. In

    22 this log, which seems to show the time of service in

    23 the HVO, and for the purpose of remuneration, it is

    24 mentioned here that you, Goran Papic, was in the

    25 service of the HVO from the 16th of December, 1993

  6. 1 until the 15th of January, 1996. And in respect of

    2 this log, or this entry, you signed and you yourself

    3 have identified this signature as being your own, as

    4 being authentic. I would request that you explain very

    5 clearly for what reasons and under which circumstances

    6 you signed this log. I believe you mentioned a moment

    7 ago something about payment, which of course would be

    8 in the -- should be in accordance with this log, but

    9 afterwards I did not understand your explanation. You

    10 signed this log probably in 1996, in any case, not

    11 before January, 1996, and therefore, it seems to me,

    12 you should have some memory of the reasons for why you

    13 signed this log.

    14 Can you please repeat this explanation as

    15 clearly as possible. Thank you.

    16 A. I really don't remember exactly the occasion

    17 on which I signed this. I think that this signature

    18 was put there so that my time served in the army would

    19 be taken into account so I would not have to be a

    20 conscript again after the war. I have no idea for what

    21 other reason it could be there.

    22 Q. When it stated that this was established in

    23 order to calculate remuneration for the personnel of

    24 the HVO, does that to you seem to be correct?

    25 A. I apologise. I didn't understand the

  7. 1 beginning of your question.

    2 Q. It seems that all of the entries were made

    3 here in this register, or in this log, in order to

    4 calculate the remuneration, the salaries of the persons

    5 within the HVO. Would this be correct or accurate?

    6 A. I received no remuneration from the time I

    7 was mobilised because this was counted as my military

    8 service. The people who are older than me, who had

    9 already done their obligatory military service were

    10 remunerated. Why the date put there was the 16th of

    11 March, 1993, why this date is in there, I really don't

    12 know.

    13 Q. In view of what you just stated, sir, would

    14 you please indicate to this Tribunal whether you know

    15 or not whether your brother, Dragan, was paid for the

    16 time period he spent in service of the HVO?

    17 A. I don't know whether he did or not.

    18 Q. When you entered into the service of the HVO,

    19 when you became a soldier, was there an oath you had to

    20 take of fidelity to the Croatian community?

    21 A. No, I didn't have to take an oath, because

    22 there was a war. There was no time for that. I was

    23 simply called up and I immediately went to the defence

    24 line.

    25 Q. Was there no ceremony from time to time

  8. 1 within the brigade, ceremonies during which soldiers

    2 would have to take an oath of fidelity?

    3 A. No, I took no oath.

    4 Q. Sir, let us now then go back to the first

    5 conflict, the conflict of 20 October, 19th and 20th of

    6 October, 1992. You described, during the course of

    7 your testimony, and in response to the question put to

    8 you by Mr. Puliselic, you described this conflict in

    9 very explicit terms, and I may say even official

    10 terms. You stated that the forces were trying to go to

    11 -- were trying to go to Jajce, were on the road and

    12 were stopped by Muslim forces, and that you were

    13 required to flee from your home, and that you came

    14 under fire, which came from the house of Mehmed Ahmic,

    15 and that you took refuge with your family in the woods

    16 located behind your house, the woods in which you only

    17 come out from the night before. Pardon, correction,

    18 interpreter's correction. You left only at nightfall.

    19 I would like to know now for what reasons you

    20 and your family was required to leave your household

    21 and to flee into the woods where you took refuge?

    22 A. My family and I had to leave our house

    23 because, first, we were woken by intense gunfire, which

    24 confused us, and the main reason why we had to leave

    25 our house were the words we heard coming from the loud

  9. 1 speaker on the mosque saying, "Croats, give up your

    2 weapons," and that frightened us and so we fled.

    3 Q. Yesterday, sir, you stated that two houses

    4 and some annexes were destroyed during the course of

    5 that day. Would you please tell us where these

    6 destroyed buildings were located in the village.

    7 A. Those were houses which were not completely

    8 destroyed. The house of Mehmed Ahmic, Suduka, had been

    9 damaged. Drago Josipovic's barn had been damaged,

    10 Hajrudin Pjanic's house had been damaged. I think

    11 another barn or farm building was damaged. I can't

    12 remember exactly whose.

    13 Q. Yesterday you stated that the house belonging

    14 to your neighbour, Mehmed Ahmic, was damaged, slightly

    15 damaged, not destroyed, but simply damaged. You stated

    16 that the back part of the roof, the right side of the

    17 rear roof was damaged. However, witness, it seems that

    18 after this first conflict during that day that

    19 Mr. Mehmed Ahmic and his family had to leave their

    20 house and leave Ahmici.

    21 A. Mehmed Ahmic left his house that day and,

    22 since he was in the leadership of the SDA party, since

    23 he was an important person in that party and they

    24 immediately gave him a flat in Zenica because they were

    25 afraid something might happen to him, and that's why he

  10. 1 didn't come back to his house, although he could have

    2 repaired the damage to his house and continued living

    3 there.

    4 Q. Would it be correct in saying that the other

    5 Muslims in Ahmici, or at least in the lower part of

    6 Ahmici, also left their house on that day?

    7 A. Yes, they left their houses that day, but

    8 almost all of them came back the following morning from

    9 Donja Ahmici.

    10 Q. You state they returned as early as the

    11 following morning, that is to say the 21st of October,

    12 '92?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I would like to

    15 show to this Trial Chamber a video footage. I believe

    16 it lasts about four minutes. I would like to inform

    17 the Tribunal, as well as the members of the Defence,

    18 that this footage is an excerpt from a two-hour video

    19 which represents a broadcast from Busovaca television.

    20 The footage which I wish to show to the Trial

    21 Chamber was filmed by a television journalist from

    22 Busovaca in November 1992. The footage, first of all,

    23 shows one scene which takes place in Travnik, where one

    24 can see an HVO truck as well as various weapons, and as

    25 well as a few soldiers from the HVO, and then on that

  11. 1 same video we can see a truck which is leaving Travnik

    2 to go to Ahmici where the truck then stops.

    3 I would wish to show this to the Tribunal and

    4 to show to this Trial Chamber what we can see as of

    5 November 1992. To my knowledge at least, this is the

    6 only illustration we have of this village before the

    7 15th April 1992, but this is, nonetheless, the footage

    8 that we have.

    9 We will, of course, disclose this to the

    10 Defence counsel, of course, only the excerpt, and if

    11 the Trial Chamber wishes and, of course, if the Defence

    12 wishes, we can, of course, disclose the entirety of

    13 this cassette, that is to say, the entire two hours,

    14 which, in my mind, is not of interest or relevant at

    15 this stage in these proceedings.

    16 We will now submit this -- we will submit to

    17 the Trial Chamber the transcript which reflects this

    18 part of the footage.

    19 THE REGISTRAR: Videotape is document 352,

    20 and the transcript of the video is 352A.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, of course we will see

    22 this video, but I'm curious as to why the Prosecution

    23 did not use this video when you were presenting your

    24 case and you were calling your own witnesses. How can

    25 you explain that it is only now that you are bringing

  12. 1 out this video in response? Why are you only

    2 presenting it now?

    3 MR. TERRIER: I state quite honestly, Your

    4 Honour, that we were not aware of this video at the

    5 time.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    7 MR. TERRIER: Without even being able to

    8 disclose any secrets, we wish to state that we have,

    9 about this period in respect of this same war, a large

    10 number and variety of type of information, and quite

    11 dispersed, and sometimes it is difficult and it is

    12 quite regrettable that we are not able to gather all of

    13 the information of use and of importance at the start

    14 of this trial.

    15 I think the work has been done now, but as

    16 this Trial Chamber has underscored, we could have

    17 presented this information at the beginning during our

    18 presentation of our case but I think perhaps it is

    19 better late than never, but we believe that this would

    20 be an appropriate time to do so, at the time of the

    21 testimony of this witness.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Very well. Shall

    23 we now show the film?

    24 I'm wondering whether -- registrar? Here we

    25 are.

  13. 1 (Videotape played)

    2 THE INTERPRETER: (Voiceover) "In the direction of Vitez

    3 and Busovaca, and then we shall proceed to the locality

    4 of Ahmici, which is where partly the conflict started.

    5 We are driving past a gas station. With me

    6 in the car are Mile the driver and Vlado from the

    7 Intervention Platoon. The boys at the two four-barrel

    8 gun, Darko Predrag and Vinko Petrovic and Mladen

    9 Petrovic.

    10 This is the so-called Vitez stretch, and the

    11 area of the Croatian Defence Council or Vitez units

    12 fired from is on our right. It is the area of Rovna.

    13 Then we continue to a locality better known as Kod

    14 Picana. That is the village of Ahmici. A barricade

    15 was erected on the other side by the cemetery. We will

    16 drive past that place and film certain details.

    17 You can see Hrasno. The village of Hrasno is

    18 alive and well. The HVO units of Busovaca fired from

    19 the village of Hrasno or from Beraja, and for the many

    20 who will be watching, here are some souvenirs, scenes

    21 to be remembered, scenes which will ensure that this

    22 area becomes free.

    23 There is the mosque, partly destroyed up

    24 above, because there was a sniper there. The units

    25 neutralised it. A house. A house. Yes, gets shots of

  14. 1 everything. And there is a tri-coloured flag flying

    2 down there.

    3 Slobodan Milosevic. Do you speak Croatian?

    4 No, Serbian.

    5 Vinko, I'm moving over to you.

    6 Ahmici, the first and the last stronghold of

    7 the Muslim armed forces, a point where they tried to

    8 stop members of the Croatian Defence Council as they

    9 were moving toward their Novi Travnik positions. After

    10 all the agreements and negotiations -- hurry up.

    11 The Muslim forces went back on all the

    12 agreements and negotiations and the response from the

    13 Croatian Defence Council is common knowledge."

    14 MR. TERRIER:

    15 Q. Witness, do you recognise the spot where the

    16 truck stopped?

    17 A. Yes, I do.

    18 Q. Would you please tell us where that is?

    19 A. This is the place called Ahmici.

    20 Q. Yes, indeed, but what exact spot in the

    21 village of Ahmici did the truck stop at?

    22 A. The truck stopped at the bus-stop in Ahmici.

    23 Q. Isn't this very close to your house?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. And the house that we saw, the destroyed

  15. 1 house that we saw, isn't that Mehmed Ahmic's house?

    2 A. Yes, that is Mehmed Ahmic's house.

    3 Q. When you said that the roof was slightly

    4 damaged to the back and to the right-hand side, this is

    5 what you said yesterday, isn't that statement far from

    6 the reality? In other words, wasn't that statement

    7 inaccurate on your part?

    8 A. Well, yes, the house is slightly more

    9 destroyed than I described it.

    10 Q. Do you know how this house, which is opposite

    11 to yours, was totally destroyed on the 20th of October,

    12 1992? Do you know how and by whom?

    13 A. I don't know who destroyed it, but I know

    14 that it was hit by a missile fired from Hrasno.

    15 Q. Weren't there some heavy weapons positioned

    16 close to your house on that date, October 1992?

    17 A. There were no heavy weapons near our house.

    18 Q. You told us, as have other witnesses, that

    19 the HVO forces, which were stopped on the 19th of

    20 October, 1992 at Ahmici, were going to the front to

    21 Jajce. However, you were able to hear, as we have, all

    22 of us, that the Busovaca journalists in this clip

    23 saying that the HVO forces were on the way to Novi

    24 Travnik.

    25 A. At that time I was not able to know because I

  16. 1 was underage and they were talking about Jajce.

    2 Whether they were really going to Novi Travnik or Jajce

    3 I really didn't know. I just know that the story was

    4 that they were on their way to Jajce, because the HVO

    5 forces usually went towards Jajce when they passed

    6 along that road. I'm not aware that they went to Novi

    7 Travnik.

    8 Q. Witness, seeing this film and listening to

    9 what was said by the journalist at the end of the clip,

    10 and showing and looking at the shooting by the two

    11 black uniformed soldiers, wouldn't you think this was a

    12 rather threatening demonstration of power in relation

    13 to the Muslims of Ahmici?

    14 A. Well, I don't know. I think yes. I think

    15 yes.

    16 Q. Witness, I should now like us to go on to

    17 another area, referring in particular to the period

    18 going from October 1992 until April 1993.

    19 You told us yesterday that your brother

    20 Dragan always maintained excellent relations with your

    21 neighbours, Muslims, but you said that those relations

    22 cooled during the last few months prior to April 1993.

    23 This Trial Chamber has heard several

    24 witnesses, Muslims I must specify, who said that your

    25 brother Dragan, in the course of that period, adopted a

  17. 1 threatening and unfriendly attitude towards them, that

    2 he demonstrated a certain admiration in relation to

    3 Hitler, to the Ustashas, that he frequently wore a

    4 black uniform, that he was frequently armed with a

    5 sniper rifle and that he behaved in a threatening and

    6 insulting attitude toward the Muslims. How would you

    7 explain all this unfavourable testimony regarding your

    8 brother Dragan?

    9 A. First of all, he was on quite good terms at

    10 first, then they cooled with some neighbours. For

    11 example, the Causevic family and some refugees such as

    12 I mentioned Nusret Paco and many others who visited us

    13 and whom we visited until the very day of the

    14 conflict.

    15 As regards the black uniform, I told you that

    16 he received it as a present from a HOS member. It was

    17 a bit tight for him, but he would wear it only when

    18 going to Zenica. This was before the conflict.

    19 Because it was in Zenica that the HOS was founded, and

    20 all members of HOS, Muslims and Croats, wore that black

    21 uniform.

    22 As for the sniper rifle, I never saw anywhere

    23 near our house, far from our house itself, nor did he

    24 ever use any such weapon. He had an ordinary M-48

    25 rifle that was issued to him in the forestry company

  18. 1 that he worked for, and I have already explained why he

    2 used it.

    3 Q. I wish to tell you also, witness, so as not

    4 to conceal anything from you, that a witness said that

    5 he saw your brother shooting at Muslims on the 20th of

    6 October 1992.

    7 A. He couldn't have seen him at all because my

    8 brother was in Rovna.

    9 Q. Witness, on the 20th of October, 1992, was

    10 your brother an HVO soldier or not?

    11 A. No, he was not.

    12 Q. I should now like to ask you a question

    13 regarding car -- the car or cars. You told us that

    14 Dragan Papic, in April 1993, at least at the beginning

    15 of 1993, had a Zastava 101 vehicle, if I'm not

    16 mistaken.

    17 A. Yes. Yes, he did.

    18 Q. What model of vehicle did your father Ivo

    19 own?

    20 A. My father Ivo had a green Lada which he sold

    21 in Kruscica in 1991.

    22 Q. Didn't he buy another car after 1991?

    23 A. No. No, he didn't. In 1997 he bought

    24 himself a jeep.

    25 Q. Excuse me, but doesn't a plumber have to have

  19. 1 a vehicle in order to transport his tools and

    2 equipment?

    3 A. Yes, he did have a vehicle until 1991. When

    4 the fighting started he didn't want to have a car,

    5 because by 1992 and the multi-party election, and when

    6 these various armies cropped up, cars would be

    7 confiscated and stolen and he didn't want to have a

    8 car.

    9 He had just collected enough money for

    10 another car when, after having sold the other one,

    11 these armies started to be founded, and he didn't want

    12 to go through the same problems that some other people

    13 went through who had cars.

    14 Q. Excuse me, I'm not very knowledgeable about

    15 vehicles, but couldn't it be said that the Zastava

    16 resembles a Lada to a great degree, and that both these

    17 vehicles resemble an old Fiat model? Are they similar,

    18 the two of them?

    19 A. No. Lada manufactured in 1988, which my

    20 brother had until 1995, is not similar to Zastava 101.

    21 There are many differences by which you can distinguish

    22 one from the other.

    23 Q. You don't have a photograph of that yellow

    24 Zastava by any chance?

    25 A. No, I don't.

  20. 1 Q. I'm now, Witness, going to go on to the 16th

    2 of April, 1993, referring to your testimony when you

    3 said that you were woken up in the morning of the 16th

    4 of April by gunfire, that you and your family,

    5 including Dragan Papic, left the house and fled to the

    6 wood behind your house, and that at that moment, your

    7 father, Ivo, said to Dragan that he should take his

    8 mother, his sister, and his wife, his pregnant wife, to

    9 a shelter in Rovna. And you said that as for you

    10 yourself, you, your father, and some other persons that

    11 you found in the woods, you stayed there all day, and

    12 you returned home in the evening. Could you specify

    13 the exact location of this shelter in Donja Rovna where

    14 a part of your family found refuge in the course of

    15 that day?

    16 A. They didn't go to a shelter in Rovna. They

    17 went to Rovna because there were no Muslims there.

    18 There were only Croats there, and there were no

    19 conflicts. They stayed in an ordinary family home, and

    20 this family took them in in order to give them shelter

    21 from the things that were happening near our home.

    22 Q. Could you tell us who owned this house where

    23 your mother, your sister, your sister-in-law, found

    24 shelter during that day, the 16th of April, 1993?

    25 A. I know that -- I don't know his first name;

  21. 1 the surname is Santic. I don't remember exactly. I

    2 know his brother's name is Zvonko, but I can't remember

    3 the first name of the owner of this house. I know that

    4 the surname is Santic.

    5 Q. Do you know where that house is? Could you

    6 point it out on a map or a photograph, on the aerial

    7 photograph?

    8 A. The house is in Donja Rovna.

    9 I can't remember exactly. I can't point it

    10 out to you.

    11 Q. Could you at least specify roughly how far

    12 that house is from the Radak bridge?

    13 A. The house is about -- maybe 150 to 200 metres

    14 from Radak's bridge. I don't know exactly, because I

    15 don't remember measuring anything around that house.

    16 But anyway, I think -- I know where the house of his

    17 brother Zvonko is, because I was a good friend with his

    18 sons. But I think that the brother's house was near

    19 there, and I learned subsequently that my family took

    20 shelter with Zvonko's brother.

    21 Q. And in order to go to this house from your

    22 house, to Donja Rovna, you have to cross the Radak

    23 bridge? Is there no other road? Is that correct? No

    24 other way of reaching it?

    25 A. Yes, there's no other way, because there's

  22. 1 the Lasva River, and the only crossing across the Lasva

    2 River is the Radak bridge, at least in that area near

    3 our house and south of the woods.

    4 Q. You told us that this house was about 150 to

    5 200 metres from the Radak bridge. Can you tell us with

    6 greater precision what is the distance between your

    7 house, your own house, and the Radak bridge? Roughly.

    8 A. I don't know exactly. Maybe a thousand

    9 metres. I don't know exactly. I never measured it. I

    10 went there quite often, but I never measured the

    11 distance.

    12 Q. Since you went there often, how much time did

    13 it take you? Roughly, of course. How much time did it

    14 take you to get to that house in Donja Rovna from your

    15 house?

    16 A. I needed about 20 minutes from my house on

    17 foot to that house, to those houses of the Santici, the

    18 Santici houses.

    19 Q. Twenty minutes to cover one kilometre? One

    20 kilometre and 200 metres?

    21 A. Yes. Because you have to go roundabout. You

    22 don't have a direct route. You have to turn round the

    23 Radak bridge and then make a roundabout path. I could

    24 indicate the path from my house to Radak's bridge.

    25 Q. Yes, please. Do that.

  23. 1 A. This is the path I would cover when going

    2 from my house to the Radak bridge. This is my house;

    3 this is the wood that we would go through to reach the

    4 Radak bridge. We'd go right through the centre of the

    5 wood; we'd come out here. This is the railway line

    6 that the train took. Then we would follow the route of

    7 the tracks. The line goes this way; then there's a

    8 path here that takes us to the Radak bridge. Then we

    9 cross over, and then we follow this path, and I think

    10 the houses where my family stayed are here.

    11 So you see, as the crow flies, it would be

    12 this way; but there's no bridge there, so we'd have to

    13 go this -- follow this roundabout route, and that's why

    14 it would take 20 minutes.

    15 Q. Thank you. So, Witness, the route that you

    16 have just indicated on the map, that goes from your

    17 house to the railway line, then the bridge, and then to

    18 Donja Rovna, is the route that according to your

    19 testimony was taken by your brother Dragan, his

    20 pregnant wife, your mother, and your sister on the

    21 morning of the 16th of April; that is what you said?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Could you now help us to resolve an enigma?

    24 We heard yesterday Mr. Ivo Vidovic, who testified just

    25 before you came. I think you know Mr. Ivo Vidovic,

  24. 1 don't you?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Mr. Ivo Vidovic told the Trial Chamber that

    4 on the morning of the 16th of April, 1993, at 10 past

    5 6.00, being in the shelter close to his house, next to

    6 Pican's cafe, that he met Nenad Santic, who asked him

    7 to take up guard duty on the Radak bridge. He arrived

    8 at the Radak bridge; he found Drago Vidovic. And ten

    9 minutes later, he sees coming from Donja Rovna your

    10 brother, Dragan Papic. And your brother, Dragan Papic,

    11 said at that moment, addressing Ivo Vidovic, that he

    12 had received instructions to guard the bridge with

    13 him.

    14 The enigma is the following: When and who

    15 gave these instructions to your brother Dragan?

    16 A. I don't know when, but I know that the

    17 instructions came from Nenad Santic telling him that he

    18 should stay at Radak's bridge.

    19 Q. When could he have encountered Nenad Santic

    20 that morning?

    21 A. I don't know that. I never asked him when

    22 the two of them met.

    23 Q. In the evening of the 15th or during the day

    24 of the 15th, did Nenad Santic come to visit you?

    25 A. No. No. He didn't come by. I can't

  25. 1 remember the last time he dropped by before the

    2 conflict, and on that day, he didn't drop by at all.

    3 Q. Would Nenad Santic come and visit your

    4 family, or Dragan Papic?

    5 A. No, they didn't visit one another. In fact,

    6 I just said that I can't remember the last time that

    7 Nenad Santic came to visit us in our house before the

    8 conflict.

    9 Q. Are you saying that throughout the day of the

    10 16th of April, 1993, you remained in the wood behind

    11 your house, as you told us yesterday?

    12 A. I'm sorry, I really did not understand the

    13 question.

    14 Q. Are you confirming today that you spent the

    15 whole day of the 16th of April, 1993, in the wood

    16 behind your house, the wood that you pointed out to us

    17 I think during your testimony yesterday?

    18 A. Yes. I spent the whole day in the stream,

    19 actually. It is right next to the wood. There is a

    20 stream where we stayed throughout that day.

    21 Q. According to the translation, I see it says

    22 that you spent the entire day in the stream. What

    23 stream are you referring to? The Lasva River?

    24 Go ahead.

    25 A. The Lasva is not a stream. The stream I'm

  26. 1 referring to is in this part of the wood. It's -- just

    2 a minute, please; let me concentrate.

    3 In fact, in this part of the wood, since we

    4 moved from this part of the wood and went down to the

    5 stream which flows this way, in this direction through

    6 the meadows, under the railway track, and toward

    7 Lasva. So we were here somewhere in this stream.

    8 Q. Thank you, sir. Would you know -- I believe

    9 you would know that another witness came before this

    10 Trial Chamber and stated that he had seen you in the

    11 end of -- or late morning of the 16th of April, 1993,

    12 accompanied by Zoran and Mirjan Kupreskic, in a house,

    13 the house belonging to Jozo, which is found in the

    14 other end of Ahmici, after the cemetery. What reaction

    15 do you have to this point?

    16 A. No, I know the witness who stated this I

    17 think did not tell the truth. Because my father would

    18 not allow my cousins and me to leave him. And I never

    19 saw Mirjan and Zoran Kupreskic. I don't remember when

    20 I saw them after the conflict; a long time passed

    21 before I saw them for the first time. I did not move

    22 in the direction of Jozo's house. We were terrified by

    23 the gunfire, and my father was terrified, and he

    24 wouldn't let us move away from him.

    25 Q. Did you know that witness stated to this

  27. 1 Trial Chamber that they saw a heavy-calibre weapon

    2 located next to your house which was firing on Muslim

    3 houses in Ahmici? Were you personally a witness to

    4 this fact?

    5 A. There was no heavy weapon located near our

    6 house. This was a family house inhabited by my elderly

    7 father, my elderly mother, my pregnant sister-in-law,

    8 my sister, and I, who was going to school. These were

    9 all family houses with women and children living in

    10 them. They were not strategic positions, and there

    11 were no big or small weapons there at all.

    12 Q. Yesterday, sir, you talked with great

    13 precision, with the use of a support document, about

    14 the damages caused to your house. You said that this

    15 was caused or inflicted on the 16th of April. How can

    16 this Trial Chamber be sure that this damage was caused

    17 on the 16th of April and not another day?

    18 A. We really discovered this damage in the

    19 morning when we saw what had been happening; then we

    20 saw the damage to our house.

    21 Q. I am almost finished; I would like to ask you

    22 one last question, and I would now like to call upon

    23 your knowledge of the geography of Ahmici, and also

    24 your military experience, because you said you fought

    25 in the ranks of the HVO for a number of months.

  28. 1 I would like to understand, and of course the

    2 Trial Chamber would like to understand as well: What

    3 was this guard of two or three persons on the Radak

    4 bridge? What was the military justification for this

    5 position taken by the local command of the HVO? Was

    6 the aim to repel, in your opinion, to repel an assault

    7 coming from the Busovaca municipality?

    8 A. No. The aim of the guard at Radak's bridge

    9 was only to keep the bridge, so that there was no

    10 sabotage by the Muslims who might try to blow it up and

    11 thus cut off the Vitez/Busovaca communication. That's

    12 why people were put there, my brother among them. And

    13 there were only three of them, then a third came, and

    14 they were guarding the bridge because it was an

    15 important communication.

    16 Q. I understand. Did your brother tell you

    17 whether he had a means of communication, for example,

    18 through means of a radio?

    19 A. I didn't understand your question. Could you

    20 repeat it, please?

    21 Q. Did your brother, Dragan, tell you, and do

    22 you know, whether the men who were guarding this bridge

    23 had a means of communication with their headquarters:

    24 A radio, HF radio, or any type of communication device?

    25 A. They didn't have a command. It was just an

  29. 1 ordinary man, who was the commander of the village

    2 guard, who put them there. They did not have any means

    3 of communication, any equipment for communication.

    4 Q. Perhaps isn't it, from a military standpoint,

    5 imprudent to put men at risk of being assaulted by

    6 Muslim forces equipped only with two M-48 rifles and

    7 who had no means of communication? Would it be logical

    8 to think, and should we not think, that in truth this

    9 guard was designed to prevent Muslims from fleeing

    10 through use of this bridge?

    11 A. No. The Muslims I think -- I think there are

    12 no Muslims living in Rovna. There were no Muslims

    13 living nearby who might have fled across this bridge.

    14 As to why they didn't have any equipment for

    15 communication or a command and why they were put there

    16 without proper weapons, without equipment for

    17 communication, I don't know.

    18 Q. I'm not sure you sought to answer this

    19 question.

    20 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I have no

    21 further questions for this witness.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Terrier.

    23 Mr. Puliselic?

    24 MR. TERRIER: I'm sorry, Mr. Puliselic, I

    25 would simply wish to ask if I may tender 351, 352, and

  30. 1 352A; I request that these be tendered into evidence.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Objection?

    3 No objection; they are admitted into

    4 evidence.

    5 Counsel Puliselic.

    6 MR. PULISELIC: I would first like to ask, if

    7 I may, Mr. Terrier, whether he can answer how and when

    8 the Prosecution obtained the material which was

    9 presented yesterday and today.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Terrier, that's a

    11 question directed to you. Are you in a position to

    12 respond?

    13 MR. TERRIER: The explanation I may give to

    14 this Trial Chamber and to Mr. Puliselic are the

    15 following: These documents were gathered, as well as

    16 others, in Vitez at the office of the Defence in

    17 September or October, 1998, during the course of an

    18 action carried out by the Office of the Prosecutor,

    19 investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor in

    20 September, October, 1998. I can't give you the exact

    21 date, but with the leave of this Tribunal, I will try

    22 to obtain the exact --

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Was this a seizure that took

    24 place?

    25 MR. TERRIER: Yes, Your Honour, this was a

  31. 1 formal seizure of these documents. Of course, I cannot

    2 go into more detail at this point.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    4 Re-examined by Mr. Puliselic:

    5 Q. Mr. Papic, good morning. I would like to ask

    6 the usher to show Exhibit 351. I didn't know it was

    7 already there. Thank you.

    8 Mr. Papic, the Prosecutor has shown you a

    9 list of persons signed by the head of the Defence

    10 office where, under number 4.629, is your name and your

    11 signature. You said that you didn't remember when you

    12 put your signature to this document; is that right?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Now, please take a look at this document.

    15 Can it be seen anywhere on this document when it was

    16 drawn up?

    17 A. I don't see that here.

    18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness switch on

    19 the microphone, please.


    21 Q. Can you remember to what these dates refer,

    22 the dates referring to you and listed in columns six

    23 and seven? Can you remember what these dates refer to?

    24 A. I really don't know what the purpose of this

    25 document is.

  32. 1 Q. Could you please take a look at this second

    2 list where your signature is not there.

    3 A. Yes, here it is.

    4 Q. So take a look at both of these documents.

    5 Is it evident from these documents that they refer to

    6 some kind of service in the HVO? Do either of these

    7 documents have the name, HVO, written on them?

    8 A. No.

    9 Q. I am asking you this now. Now, take a look

    10 at the list of persons on the document you are looking

    11 at right now. The list of persons who are members of

    12 the 92nd Vitez Home Guard Regiment, your name is here

    13 under a certain number. Can you look at it on page 2.

    14 It's under number 4.630, and in the previous list it

    15 was 4.629. So on this list is there at the bottom of

    16 the page a box with a commander or any kind of person

    17 in authority signing this?

    18 A. No.

    19 Q. Now, I would like to ask you whether you have

    20 any knowledge as to when the 92nd Vitez Home Guard

    21 Regiment was established. Do you know whether it

    22 existed in mid-1992?

    23 A. I don't remember.

    24 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether the

    25 92nd Vitez Home Guard Regiment belonged to the regular

  33. 1 army units or whether it was reserve unit?

    2 A. I think it was a reserve unit.

    3 Q. In the column under number 5 it says "status"

    4 at the top of the page. So look at column 5. Have you

    5 found it, where it says "status," and most of the boxes

    6 have the letter "P" in them with a few exceptions, the

    7 whole column has the letter "P" in it. Could this

    8 letter "P" mean pricuvni, which means reserve?

    9 A. Yes, I think it could mean that.

    10 Q. On the list you are just looking at under

    11 number 4.643 is the name Papic Ivanka. So Papic is the

    12 surname, Ivo is the name of the father, Ivanka is the

    13 name. Is that your sister?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Was your sister ever a member of the HVO or

    16 of the 92nd Home Guard Vitez Regiment?

    17 A. No, she was never a member of the HVO or of

    18 the Vitez regiment.

    19 Q. Now could you take a look at number 4.626,

    20 the surname is "Franjkovic." In brackets it says

    21 "Franjo" and then it says "Kata." Is that a man or a

    22 woman?

    23 A. This is a woman.

    24 Q. Do you know this person?

    25 A. No, I don't know her.

  34. 1 Q. Let's go on then. Number 4.627 is, "Franjic

    2 B. (Vlado)"?

    3 A. I haven't found this.

    4 Q. It's just under "Kata."

    5 A. Yes, I found it now, number 4.627.

    6 Q. "Olivera," is this a man or a woman?

    7 A. It's a woman.

    8 Q. Let's go on. Number 4.631, it says "Bosnjak,

    9 Dorde," the father's name in brackets, "Anda." Is this

    10 a man or a woman?

    11 A. This is also a woman.

    12 Q. Do you know her, perhaps?

    13 A. No, I don't.

    14 Q. Number 4.632, the name is "Zeljka, Mato" is

    15 the name of the father, and "Matijanic" is the second

    16 name. Is Zeljka a man or a woman?

    17 A. Zeljka is a woman.

    18 Q. Then number 4.634, the surname is "Ivisic,

    19 (Marko) Mara." Is Mara a man's name or a woman's name?

    20 A. Mara is a woman's name.

    21 Q. Do you know this person?

    22 A. No, I don't know her.

    23 Q. Number 4.635, the surname is "Safradin," in

    24 brackets the father's name is "Marko," and then the

    25 name is "Marinka." Is Marinka a man or a woman? What

  35. 1 kind of name is it?

    2 A. It's a woman's name.

    3 Q. Very well. You said that your sister,

    4 Ivanka, was never a member of the HVO, nor of the 92nd

    5 Vitez Home Guard Regiment?

    6 A. No, she was never a member of the HVO or of

    7 the Vitez regiment.

    8 Q. Now take a look at column number 4. Look at

    9 this column. In only three places has it been filled

    10 in and the heading is a number of military identity

    11 card or military booklet. What can you conclude from

    12 this entire column, because the number of military

    13 booklet is not entered anywhere?

    14 A. I can conclude that only three of these

    15 people have a military booklet out of this whole list.

    16 Q. Next the name of your brother, Papic, Ivo

    17 Dragan. Is there a registry number of the military

    18 book?

    19 A. No.

    20 Q. If your brother, Dragan, was employed in the

    21 forestry until the beginning of the war, could he have

    22 at the same time belonged to a regular military unit?

    23 A. No, he couldn't have belonged to a military

    24 unit because he had a regular job.

    25 Q. Do you know whether all those who were

  36. 1 employed and who were of military age, whether they

    2 were listed as reserve soldiers?

    3 A. Yes, they were all reserve.

    4 Q. Do you know anything about shares being

    5 distributed in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    6 A. Yes, I have heard about the shares.

    7 Q. Do you know what people did or what was done

    8 to get as many shares as possible? Was precedence in

    9 distributing these shares after their privatization

    10 given to those who, for example, had worked for a

    11 longer time or who had done more service in a military

    12 unit? Those who had served in the army longer, was

    13 this an advantage?

    14 A. Yes, it was an advantage.

    15 Q. Do you know whether it was an advantage for

    16 getting shares?

    17 A. Yes, those who had done more military service

    18 were given more shares.

    19 Q. Did it sometimes happen, because of this,

    20 that people somehow tried to represent that they had

    21 been members of military units for a longer time than

    22 they had actually been?

    23 A. Yes, I think that those who were able to do

    24 that did it, but I don't have any exact information

    25 about it.

  37. 1 Q. Was this, perhaps, the reason why there are

    2 so many people on these lists, over four and a half

    3 thousand people in the Vitez municipality, with even

    4 women on the lists? Could that be the reason for these

    5 lists? Do you know?

    6 A. I have no knowledge of this, but it's

    7 possible. However, I have no detailed or precise

    8 information about this, and I can't explain it.

    9 Q. Thank you. We shall now go on to the date,

    10 20th of October, 1992. Do you have any knowledge that

    11 shots were fired on that morning from some kind of

    12 weapon at Pero Papic's house?

    13 A. Yes, an infantry weapon was used to shoot at

    14 his house. There was probably some damage to his

    15 house, yes, there was damage on the outside of the

    16 house and in the rooms as well, and the windows.

    17 Q. Mr. Terrier asked you when, after this

    18 conflict on the 20th of October, 1992, the Muslims

    19 returned to Ahmici. You said then that the Muslims

    20 from lower Ahmici had returned the next morning?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. I am now asking you, the rest of the Muslims

    23 from Ahmici who had fled, whether they also returned

    24 the next day or whether they returned over the next few

    25 days?

  38. 1 A. I don't know exactly. Perhaps. I don't

    2 know. I can't answer that question. I don't know.

    3 Q. You don't know?

    4 A. I don't know.

    5 Q. You know only about the Muslims from lower

    6 Ahmici?

    7 A. Yes, about the ones from lower Ahmici.

    8 MR. PULISELIC: Mr. President, I would now

    9 like to ask that the video, Prosecution Exhibit 352, be

    10 shown again. I would like to stop at Mehmed Ahmic's

    11 house. Perhaps we could do that after the break.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Let's take a break now.

    13 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

    14 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, Counsel Puliselic.

    16 MR. PULISELIC: Before we see the video clip

    17 presented by the Prosecution, Exhibit 352, I should

    18 like to ask Mr. Terrier whether he could say how we can

    19 tell that the video was taken on the 20th of October,

    20 1992. Is there any evidence to confirm that?

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Terrier?

    22 MR. TERRIER: Yes. At the very beginning of

    23 the tape, according to the translation of the words

    24 spoken by the reporter, it was taken on the 7th of

    25 November, 1992, and to prove this I will communicate

  39. 1 and disclose to the Defence the whole tape. It is

    2 quite evident that it is after the 20th of October and

    3 before the 16th of April, because we see the minaret

    4 which is still standing in Ahmici.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: All right.

    6 MR. PULISELIC: Could we now play the tape

    7 again, and could we stop when we reach Mehmed Ahmic's

    8 house, please?

    9 (Videotape played)

    10 MR. PULISELIC: Stop, please. Just wind it

    11 back a little, please. Stop.

    12 Q. Mr. Papic, is this Mehmed Ahmic's house?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. I can't see the shot. I should now like to

    15 show the witness Prosecution Exhibit 61. Usher,

    16 please.

    17 Mr. Papic, is there any difference between

    18 these two photographs? Which photograph shows the

    19 greater damage, the shot from the videotape and this

    20 photograph on -- that is, the Prosecutor's exhibit is

    21 more lacking on the house than on the house shown on

    22 the videotape?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. So here the house damaged more?

    25 A. Yes.

  40. 1 Q. Will you please show us the shot from the

    2 tape, please, on the screen?

    3 Can the damage be seen from a heavy weapon

    4 such as an anti-aircraft machine gun or a gun? Do you

    5 know the kind of damage provoked by a heavy weapon when

    6 it hits a house? Does it leave holes or does it

    7 destroy walls?

    8 A. It leaves holes.

    9 Q. Do you see on this picture any holes?

    10 A. Are you referring to this still from the

    11 videotape?

    12 Q. The one on the screen.

    13 Will you look at the front of this building,

    14 the windows and the doors? Can you see anywhere holes

    15 such as those that would be provoked by an

    16 anti-aircraft gun?

    17 A. No.

    18 Q. So you know the kind of damage provoked by

    19 such a heavy weapon as an anti-aircraft gun? It makes

    20 big penetrating holes through the walls?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Thank you very much. I should now like to go

    23 on to another question.

    24 When your -- when one wants to go to Jajce,

    25 do you pass by Travnik?

  41. 1 A. Yes. When you're going to Jajce -- from

    2 Jajce you pass through Travnik.

    3 Q. In answer to a question by Mr. Terrier, you

    4 said that on the 16th of April, when he asked you where

    5 you were hiding on that day, you said that you were

    6 hiding in the wood in the immediate neighbourhood of

    7 your house and that you went to some kind of a stream.

    8 That's what you said, didn't you?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. What do you imply when you use the word

    11 "stream?" Is it a kind of hollow or is it a hollow

    12 with water flowing through it?

    13 A. Yes, it is a hollow with water flowing

    14 through it.

    15 MR. PULISELIC: Thank you very much, Your

    16 Honour. I have no further questions.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic?

    18 MR. RADOVIC: I know that I should not have

    19 any questions for the witness, but I just wish to ask

    20 the Prosecutor two questions before we proceed with the

    21 next witness.

    22 From the documents he gave us today

    23 consisting of these lists of military conscripts, it is

    24 evident that there are a large number of names, 4.656,

    25 in fact, but it seems to me that we were not given the

  42. 1 whole document but only a part of it. I didn't wish to

    2 object when this was admitted into evidence, but in any

    3 event, unless the Prosecutor gives us the whole

    4 document I would object as to its authenticity. That

    5 is why I think that they should supply us with the

    6 whole document, because, among other things, I believe

    7 that the document will come up again during the

    8 examination of other witnesses, so as not to find

    9 ourselves in the position that my colleague, Defence

    10 counsel for Mr. Papic, found himself in today. And as

    11 the Prosecutor has the complete document, we would like

    12 to ask that it be disclosed to us.

    13 The same applies to the videotape. Only the

    14 part was shown which the Prosecutor considers suits his

    15 case, but we would like to see the whole recording,

    16 because there may be certain details that could be of

    17 assistance to the Defence.

    18 So could the Trial Chamber ask the

    19 Prosecution to provide us with the complete document

    20 and the complete videotape?

    21 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, regarding the

    22 tape, I said and I confirm that we will communicate to

    23 the Trial Chamber and the Defence the whole tape

    24 lasting two and a half hours and originating from

    25 Busovaca television.

  43. 1 As for the ledger that we reviewed yesterday

    2 and today, Mr. Radovic seems to be convinced that it

    3 will come up again in another stage of this trial. All

    4 I can say is that in accordance with the instructions

    5 of this Trial Chamber, before the cross-examination and

    6 before the appearance of a particular witness, if we

    7 intend to use this ledger we will provide a copy, the

    8 whole copy, to the Defence. That is, all the pages of

    9 this ledger. But today, regardless of what the opinion

    10 of Mr. Radovic may be, I cannot say that we will use

    11 it. I also cannot say that we won't use it.

    12 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President?

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: I apologise.

    14 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac, you intended to say a few

    15 things?

    16 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, I

    17 apologise for trying to interrupt you. I just wanted

    18 to say that in this way we are prolonging the

    19 presentation of evidence. The Prosecution presented

    20 its evidence in the first stage. If necessary, we will

    21 have to consider whether we need to call another

    22 witness in connection with this document, and this can

    23 go on indefinitely. In order to know what kind of

    24 document it is, we need the whole document.

    25 Furthermore, yesterday you noted that as a --

  44. 1 a document that is tendered into evidence has to be

    2 complete and fully translated. That is why the

    3 occupational booklet was not admitted into evidence.

    4 So that is the other reason why we feel that the

    5 Prosecutor is duty-bound to provide us with the

    6 complete document.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Our ruling is that the

    8 Prosecution should disclose the whole document today or

    9 tomorrow. I mean, as soon as it is available. The

    10 whole document. We can't allow only one part of the

    11 document to be disclosed to the Defence. So --

    12 translated, yes. The relevant parts will be translated

    13 into English and the whole document shall be disclosed

    14 to Defence counsel.

    15 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, the translation

    16 has already been made. We communicated that together

    17 with the original.

    18 The translation of the first page, the

    19 heading of each column, the cover page, so that we know

    20 what it is about, as well as the page that we wanted to

    21 use in the course of this cross-examination. So the

    22 point is to make it clear what it is about for Mr.

    23 Puliselic to be able to continue with his

    24 cross-examination.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: But we wish to have the whole

  45. 1 document, and if there are parts that need to be

    2 translated it needs to be done. Otherwise, you can

    3 just provide a photocopy of the original.

    4 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, it is rather a

    5 thick document. I would like to ask to be given a

    6 little more time, at least until next week to produce

    7 it.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So decided, and

    9 we can move on.

    10 We have no questions for Mr. Papic.

    11 Mr. Papic -- Counsel Radovic?

    12 MR. RADOVIC: Your Honour, just to finish

    13 with this document, we will be satisfied if the

    14 Prosecutor gives us the document before we resume

    15 hearings next time. So it need not be tomorrow. I

    16 hope that is more convenient.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. We will resume our

    18 hearings, I think on Wednesday. So, say, by Tuesday.

    19 If you can disclose this document to the Defence by

    20 Tuesday -- or next week. All right.

    21 Mr. Papic, thank you for giving evidence in

    22 court. You may now be released. Thank you.

    23 (The witness withdrew)

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: We shall move on to our next

    25 witness. I understand no protective measures have been

  46. 1 requested for Mr. Santic, so we will now call

    2 Mr. Santic.

    3 (The witness entered court)


    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning Mr. Santic.

    6 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Would you please make the

    8 solemn declaration?

    9 THE WITNESS: Solemn declaration: I solemnly

    10 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

    11 and nothing but the truth.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    13 seated. Counsel Puliselic?

    14 Examined by Mr. Puliselic:

    15 Q. Good morning, Mr. Santic.

    16 A. Good morning.

    17 Q. Will you please introduce yourself to the

    18 Court, your name -- you may be seated -- where you were

    19 born and where you're living.

    20 A. My name is Zvonimir Santic, born on the 4th

    21 of September, 1939 in Donja Rovna, Busovaca

    22 municipality, and that is where I'm living today.

    23 Q. Mr. Santic, to your right-hand side is a

    24 small picture, a small easel. Could you indicate Donja

    25 Rovna on that aerial photograph for us, please? Take

  47. 1 the pointer with you. Would you please turn around for

    2 Their Honours to be able to see?

    3 A. Roughly here. This area here.

    4 Q. Fine. Thank you. You may go back to your

    5 seat.

    6 Mr. Santic, which municipality does Donja

    7 Rovna belong to?

    8 A. Donja Rovna belongs to Busovaca

    9 municipality.

    10 Q. Were Muslims living in Donja Rovna?

    11 A. No, never.

    12 Q. Can you tell us how far Ahmici is from Donja

    13 Rovna, as the crow flies?

    14 A. About 700 to 800 metres. Up to 1.000 on the

    15 outside.

    16 Q. What side of the Lasva River is Donja Rovna?

    17 A. On the right-hand side of the Lasva River.

    18 Q. Which are the closest Muslim villages to

    19 yours in Busovaca municipality?

    20 A. The closest Muslim villages are Kovacevac,

    21 Pezici, and Gornja Rovna.

    22 Q. Will you please point on the larger picture

    23 those places with the pointer, please, if they are

    24 indicated; if not, just roughly where they are. Find

    25 Donja Rovna first, and then point to Gornja Rovna, or

  48. 1 Upper Rovna --

    2 A. I apologise; I need my spectacles.

    3 Gornja Rovna, or Upper Rovna, is roughly

    4 here.

    5 Q. Is it indicated on the map? Can you see the

    6 words there?

    7 A. No, no, there is no inscription. Only for

    8 Donja Rovna.

    9 Q. And then the other Muslim villages, please.

    10 A. This is Donja Rovna, Gornja Rovna, Pezici,

    11 and Kovacevac.

    12 Q. Thank you. Please sit down.

    13 Where were you employed in 1992 and 1993?

    14 A. In the Mediapan factory in Busovaca.

    15 Q. You said "Mediapan factory"; what does that

    16 factory manufacture?

    17 A. The factory used to produce Mediapan wooden

    18 boards.

    19 Q. What were they used for?

    20 A. For furniture and for various other

    21 purposes.

    22 Q. Could you tell us whether you were a member

    23 of the village guards, and if you were, from when?

    24 A. I was, around April 1992/93.

    25 Q. Can you tell us what the purpose of those

  49. 1 guards was?

    2 A. It was mostly to protect the villages from

    3 the Serbian army.

    4 Q. That was at the beginning?

    5 A. Yes, that was at the beginning, in 1992, when

    6 those guards were first formed.

    7 Q. Did you all, or some of you, have uniforms?

    8 A. There were very few uniforms. I don't

    9 remember, really. Maybe one or two persons had

    10 camouflage jackets, but no one had real uniforms.

    11 Q. Did you have weapons?

    12 A. There was a hunting rifle and one M-48

    13 rifle.

    14 Q. What do you know about the first conflict

    15 between the Croats and Muslims, the conflict that

    16 occurred on the 20th of October, 1992? Was there an

    17 exchange of fire, where were you, and so on.

    18 A. In the morning, at 5.20, which is the normal

    19 time I leave for work, I reached the Radak bridge, I

    20 crossed the Lasva River, and then I suddenly heard very

    21 strong gunfire in the direction of Ahmici. I didn't

    22 know anything at the time; I had no idea what was

    23 happening. I thought to myself, should I go to work or

    24 not? And then I went back home.

    25 Q. When you go to work, you go on foot?

  50. 1 A. Yes. I go on foot to -- up to the area of

    2 Santici, where there are some Muslims as well, and

    3 there was a bus stop there where we caught the bus to

    4 go to work, and that is where we came back from work.

    5 Q. What time was it when you heard the gunfire?

    6 A. It could have been about 5.30 in the

    7 morning.

    8 Q. So that day you didn't go to work?

    9 A. No, I didn't. I returned home.

    10 Q. Later on, did you find out what happened and

    11 where the shooting had come from and what the cause of

    12 the conflict was? Did you learn about that later?

    13 A. I didn't see -- I cannot tell the whole

    14 truth, but I heard from others that the Muslims

    15 somewhere near the Catholic cemetery had built some

    16 roadblocks, they had dug trenches; that is what I heard

    17 that happened.

    18 Q. And what did that barricade provoke? How did

    19 the conflict occur?

    20 A. As far as I was informed about it, the HVO

    21 had left from Busovaca and Kiseljak to go to Jajce to

    22 defend the lines from the JNA and the Serb people in

    23 Jajce.

    24 Q. To reach Jajce, do you know that you have to

    25 pass through Travnik?

  51. 1 A. Yes, of course, you had to pass through Stari

    2 Travnik, or Old Travnik.

    3 Q. Did you perhaps hear that any one of the

    4 Croats living in Ahmici, the Croat inhabitants of

    5 Ahmici, did you hear of any one of them participating

    6 in the conflict?

    7 A. No, I didn't hear that. Nobody told me about

    8 that, nor did I hear about it.

    9 Q. Do you know Dragan Papic?

    10 A. Yes, I do.

    11 Q. Do you see him here in the courtroom, over

    12 there, near the wall?

    13 A. Yes, yes, I do see him.

    14 Q. Did you see him on the 20th of October, 1992?

    15 A. Yes, I did.

    16 Q. Where did you see him?

    17 A. I saw him as I was going towards my house

    18 that morning. It was about 8.00. Dragan was wearing

    19 an M-60 mortar and a bag. So I -- we said hello, and I

    20 asked him, "What's happening, Dragan? And he said "I

    21 don't know, but there appears to be a conflict between

    22 the Croats and the Muslims."

    23 Then I asked him, "But how is that? Where

    24 are you going?" And then he said "Nenad Santic had

    25 given me orders to go to Njive."

  52. 1 Q. Did he tell you where he had learned to use

    2 such a small mortar?

    3 A. In fact, I asked him, and he told me that he

    4 had been trained to use it in the JNA.

    5 Q. So he told you that Nenad Santic had sent him

    6 to go to Njive? On the smaller photograph, can you

    7 point to Njive for us, please?

    8 First find Radak's bridge, and then Donja

    9 Rovna, your house.

    10 A. Njive are in this area here. My house is

    11 here.

    12 Q. This is your house. So Njive -- how far away

    13 from your house?

    14 A. About 100 to 150 metres.

    15 Q. All right. You can sit down.

    16 What did Dragan Papic say to you? What was

    17 he going to do in Njive?

    18 A. He said that if there was an attack from the

    19 southern side, the three Muslim villages, to prevent

    20 them from entering Donja Rovna, he was to offer some

    21 kind of resistance.

    22 Q. On that day, did you hear that Dragan Papic

    23 used the mortar?

    24 A. No, I didn't.

    25 Q. If he had used it, would you have heard it?

  53. 1 A. Of course I would have heard it. I went to

    2 Njive two or three times.

    3 Q. In the area of Donja Rovna, was there any

    4 gunfire?

    5 A. There was no gunfire from any kind of

    6 weapons.

    7 Q. Until when was Dragan Papic in Njive on that

    8 day, approximately?

    9 A. Approximately about 4 p.m., approximately.

    10 Q. After that, did you meet him again?

    11 A. Yes, he came to my house on his way back from

    12 Njive, and he told me that Nenad Santic had told him

    13 that the mortar and the bag he was carrying should stay

    14 in my house, and that Nenad would send someone to pick

    15 up the mortar and the bag.

    16 Q. And did someone come to pick up these things?

    17 A. Yes, but not immediately. Two or three days

    18 later someone came. I don't know who; I was at work.

    19 But my wife told me that the mortar had been taken

    20 away.

    21 Q. Do you remember how Dragan Papic was dressed

    22 on that day?

    23 A. On that day, as far as I can remember, Dragan

    24 Papic may have been wearing a camouflage uniform, and I

    25 don't know what kind of trousers he had.

  54. 1 Q. Were there any insignia on the jacket?

    2 A. No. Not that I remember. I don't believe

    3 there were.

    4 Q. Do you know that in January 1993, that is in

    5 early 1993, there was an armed conflict between the

    6 army of B and H and the HVO in Busovaca?

    7 A. Yes, yes, I heard that. I wasn't there, but

    8 I heard that that happened.

    9 Q. After that, were you perhaps involved in the

    10 village guards more intensely?

    11 A. Yes, we stepped up the guards, and we

    12 patrolled at night and by day, and so on.

    13 Q. What was your role in these guards?

    14 A. I was the commander of a squad.

    15 Q. A squad of the village guards?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Do you know what happened on the 15th of

    18 April, 1993, the day before the armed conflict? Did

    19 anything special happen? Was there any suggestion that

    20 such a major conflict might break out the following

    21 day?

    22 A. Personally, I had no idea. I knew nothing,

    23 nor did I hear from anyone that something like that

    24 might happen.

    25 Q. Do you remember when the gunfire started on

  55. 1 the 16th of April, 1993, at what time?

    2 A. Around 6 a.m. That's when the gunfire

    3 started.

    4 Q. On that day, did you see Dragan Papic?

    5 A. Yes, I saw Dragan Papic on that day. I was

    6 at Radak's bridge then.

    7 Q. Was he alone, or with someone?

    8 A. Dragan went with his wife, his mother, and

    9 his sister. And he was carrying a bag, some things; I

    10 have no idea what they were.

    11 Q. And did you notice or know that Dragan's wife

    12 was pregnant?

    13 A. I didn't know, but I could see that she was

    14 pregnant and that she was in an advanced state of

    15 pregnancy.

    16 Q. Apart from this family, did you see any other

    17 families arriving to Rovna?

    18 A. Two, three families had already come. Many

    19 people came to Rovna.

    20 Q. Can you remember, or do you know, where

    21 Dragan Papic took his family for shelter?

    22 A. He asked if he could put them in my house,

    23 but I said I already had two families staying with me,

    24 so we put them in my brother's house.

    25 Q. What is your brother's name?

  56. 1 A. My brother's name is Anto Santic.

    2 Q. On that day, did you see Dragan Papic again?

    3 A. Yes, after about ten minutes, he came back to

    4 the bridge and crossed over to the left bank, and Ivo

    5 Vidovic and Dragan Vidovic were already there.

    6 Q. What were they doing there?

    7 A. They were keeping guard to prevent a sabotage

    8 unit coming to the bridge.

    9 Q. You were on the right side?

    10 A. Yes, I was on the right side of the bridge

    11 with three other men who were there with me guarding

    12 the bridge.

    13 Q. Did you see Dragan Papic there on the

    14 following days, guarding the bridge on the other side?

    15 A. Dragan was there seven, eight, ten days; I

    16 don't know exactly. But I'm sure he was there at least

    17 seven or eight days.

    18 Q. Do you know whether he or anybody else left

    19 the guard especially in those first few days? Could

    20 they leave that spot?

    21 A. No one could leave that spot because there

    22 was gunfire, you couldn't go anywhere. Those who were

    23 in the trenches were there, and those who were not in

    24 the trenches were in shelters.

    25 Q. Did they have a shelter?

  57. 1 A. They had a shelter in the house of the late

    2 Pero Ljubas.

    3 MR. PULISELIC: I would like to ask the usher

    4 to come.

    5 THE REGISTRAR: Document is marked D23/5.


    7 Q. Mr. Santic, on this map you can see an aerial

    8 photograph of the broader region of Ahmici. This is

    9 the same photograph on the panel, only smaller. You

    10 have a red felt tipped pen here somewhere. Please take

    11 it. Could you find your house in Donja Rovna and put a

    12 circle around it. Could you mark it "1." Then mark

    13 the fields, put number "2" there, or Njive, sorry, not

    14 the fields, Njive. Then circle Radak's bridge and mark

    15 it "3."

    16 A. (Marks)

    17 Q. Could you draw a line on the left and right

    18 bank of the River Lasva, first to show where Dragan

    19 Papic and the others were keeping guard,

    20 approximately. Could you mark this "4." Then could

    21 you draw another line on the other side and mark it

    22 "5." This is the position where you kept guard or

    23 patrolled the bridge.

    24 A. (Marks)

    25 Q. Very well. This photograph is upside down in

  58. 1 relation to the panel, but you seem to be doing well in

    2 finding these places.

    3 I would now like to ask the usher.

    4 THE REGISTRAR: Document D23/5.


    6 Q. Mr. Santic, what does this photograph show?

    7 What can we see here? First tell us from which side

    8 this was taken?

    9 A. This was taken from Donja Rovna.

    10 Q. What do you see in the foreground?

    11 A. I can see the road leading to the bridge. I

    12 can see the River Lasva, and then I can see the houses

    13 of Pero Ljubas.

    14 Q. Could you draw a line to show where your

    15 village patrol moved.

    16 A. Does it have to be a line?

    17 Q. Yes, a line, approximately. Did you have any

    18 trenches there?

    19 A. There was a trench here (marks), another

    20 trench here (marks), because this building wasn't there

    21 at the time, and there was a third trench here

    22 (marks).

    23 Q. On the other side Papic Vidovic and two

    24 Vidovics were patrolling?

    25 A. Yes, Dragan and Ivo.

  59. 1 Q. Could you draw a line where they moved?

    2 A. This is where they were.

    3 Q. Can you now show us the house or the area

    4 where they rested?

    5 A. They rested in this new house (indicating),

    6 there is a big garage door here.

    7 Q. Can you put a circle around it?

    8 A. Here it is (marks).

    9 Q. So this is where they rested. Very well.

    10 Now, I would like to call upon the usher.

    11 THE REGISTRAR: Document D24/5.


    13 Q. Mr. Santic, what does this photograph show

    14 and where was it taken from?

    15 A. This was taken from the Vitez side toward the

    16 side of Donja Rovna and Busovaca.

    17 Q. So this road --

    18 A. Leads from Vitez toward Busovaca, to Donja

    19 Rovna.

    20 Q. If you continued up this road, where would

    21 you come to, what place?

    22 A. You would again come out on the main road.

    23 Q. To what village, to Ahmici?

    24 A. No, to Santici.

    25 Q. So could you put an "X" where Radak's bridge

  60. 1 is.

    2 A. (Marks)

    3 Q. What can we see on the other side? Who do

    4 these buildings belong to?

    5 A. The buildings on the other side belong to

    6 Busovaca. This is Donja Rovna.

    7 Q. Very well. Thank you. We have another

    8 photograph.

    9 THE REGISTRAR: Document D25/5.


    11 Q. Mr. Santic, where was this taken from?

    12 A. This was taken from Donja Rovna.

    13 Q. What can we see here?

    14 A. We can see the bridge, we can see the left

    15 side -- the left bank of the River Lasva, the bridge,

    16 and the houses of the late Pero Ljubas.

    17 Q. Can you put a circle around the garage door

    18 where they rested, because it's seen better here than

    19 in the other picture. Could you mark Radak's bridge

    20 with an "X."

    21 A. (Marks)

    22 Q. Thank you. Now, could you try to explain to

    23 the Court why Radak's bridge had to be guarded?

    24 A. Radak's bridge was to be guarded because the

    25 communication from Busovaca to Vitez had been cut off

  61. 1 at Buhine Kuce where the Muslims had set up a roadblock

    2 and machine guns, so that the communication between

    3 Busovaca and Vitez was cut off on the main motorway.

    4 Q. To avoid any misunderstanding, was it really

    5 a barricade or --

    6 A. It was machine gunfire, which cut the road,

    7 and this went on for a month, a month and a half, I

    8 can't remember exactly. So that this road and Radak's

    9 bridge was now very important strategically because the

    10 road between Busovaca and Vitez was now along the right

    11 -- through over this bridge along the right bank of

    12 the River Lasva. This was the only communication

    13 between Busovaca and Vitez.

    14 Q. So that had it not been for Radak's bridge,

    15 Vitez would have been cut off completely?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. You said that Ivo Vidovic and Dragan Vidovic

    18 kept guard with Dragan Papic?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Do you remember how Dragan Papic was dressed

    21 and armed then?

    22 A. I think that then too he may have had a

    23 camouflage jacket, but I cannot remember what kind of

    24 trousers he had, but most probably it was jeans.

    25 Q. What weapons did he have?

  62. 1 A. He had a M-48 rifle.

    2 Q. Did you notice anything special on his face

    3 at that time, what was evident?

    4 A. Well, I don't know what to say, but you may

    5 be referring to the beard Dragan always wore.

    6 Q. You can see Dragan now. Does he have a beard

    7 now?

    8 A. Yes, he has a little.

    9 Q. Did he have a bigger beard then, a longer

    10 one?

    11 A. Yes, it was much longer then.

    12 Q. Do you know where Papic was employed?

    13 A. Papic was employed in the Vitez forestry.

    14 Q. Do you know until when he worked there?

    15 A. Well, Dragan worked there until about the

    16 end -- or the beginning of the war. Not the end, but

    17 the beginning of the war.

    18 Q. So until the 16th of April; is that correct?

    19 A. That's correct.

    20 Q. Can you say how long you kept guard?

    21 A. I kept guard until the 12th of June, 1993.

    22 That was when I was wounded by the army of BiH, by the

    23 Muslims, and after that I was no longer active.

    24 Q. Were you seriously wounded?

    25 A. Yes, I was seriously wounded. I went for

  63. 1 treatment. I had an 84, less than two millimetres.

    2 That's what the doctor said. I was operated on four

    3 times.

    4 Q. Four times?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Do you know anything about Dragan Papic,

    7 about his conversations, his discussions? Do you know

    8 that he liked to discuss political topics, for

    9 example? Did you ever hear him talking about that?

    10 A. No. Dragan liked making jokes, he liked to

    11 do odd jobs, but I don't remember ever having heard

    12 that from anyone. It never happened in my presence.

    13 Q. When you were keeping watch and there was no

    14 gunfire, did you sometimes cross the bridge?

    15 A. Yes, of course we did. We met, we had a

    16 chat, and then we would go back to our places.

    17 Q. Did he ever say anything against the Muslims

    18 then or did you ever hear him saying things against the

    19 Muslims?

    20 A. Nobody spoke about the Muslims before. We

    21 were on visiting terms with the Muslims. The Muslims

    22 would come and visit me on Easter, at Christmas, ten of

    23 them would come from Ahmici, from Rovna, and when they

    24 were celebrating Bajram I would go to visit them. We

    25 were never divided.

  64. 1 Q. You said Rovna. Did you mean Gornja Rovna?

    2 A. Yes, I meant Gornja Rovna.

    3 Q. Do you know Dragan's father, Ivo?

    4 A. Yes, of course, I do.

    5 Q. What was his job; do you know?

    6 A. He was a plumber. He worked in Princip.

    7 Q. Was he on good terms with the Muslims?

    8 A. Yes, and he is still doing plumbing for

    9 Muslims. And before the war, well, the mosque that was

    10 being built in Ahmici, he did all the plumbing there.

    11 He did it as a gift to the mosque. He did not ask for

    12 any payment. I know because I was married next to the

    13 mosque. My wife was there.

    14 Q. So your wife lived near the mosque before she

    15 married you?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. So he did this free of charge?

    18 A. Yes, it was a donation to the mosque.

    19 Q. After the war did you remain on good terms

    20 with the Muslims, many of them have come back?

    21 A. Yes, they have come back. When I meet them

    22 we say "hello," there are two or three with whom I stop

    23 and chat, but you see what this cursed war has brought

    24 us. So we discuss that.

    25 Q. Do you remember, on the 16th of April, 1993,

  65. 1 that all the Muslims left Ahmici or did any of them

    2 stay behind?

    3 A. Almost all of them left, but Dervis Ahmic

    4 stayed behind, and his son, who is married to a

    5 Croatian woman.

    6 Q. What did you find out later about what really

    7 happened in Ahmici? What did you hear? You were

    8 keeping guard, but you must have heard later what

    9 happened?

    10 A. Well, I heard that houses have been set on

    11 fire, that a lot of people had been killed, houses

    12 destroyed, and so on.

    13 Q. Do you know whether any Croats were killed?

    14 A. Well, of course. Of course Croats were

    15 killed. Not as many as there were Muslims, but some

    16 Croats were killed too.

    17 MR. PULISELIC: Thank you. I have no further

    18 questions.

    19 I request that Exhibits D23/5 (sic) to D25/5

    20 be entered into evidence.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection from the

    22 Prosecution. They are admitted into evidence. Counsel

    23 Pavkovic.

    24 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Honours, may I announce

    25 Defence counsel Luka Susak.

  66. 1 MR. PULISELIC: I think there is an error

    2 regarding my proposals for admission into evidence of

    3 exhibits. The number should be D22/5 through to D25/5,

    4 because I think there's an error. The first document

    5 mentioned is D23. It should be D22. From D22 to D25

    6 inclusive.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, you are right, Counsel

    8 Puliselic. Yes.

    9 So Counsel Susak will cross-examine the

    10 witness.

    11 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President. I only

    12 have two questions for this witness.

    13 Cross-examined by Mr. Susak:

    14 Q. You spoke today about Dragan Papic. Could

    15 you tell us whether he was a member of the village

    16 guards and where he patrolled, where he kept watch

    17 duty? Was he a member of the village guards?

    18 A. I cannot tell you because I don't know, but I

    19 don't think so because he was a forester. He was

    20 working in the Sumarija company, so he spent a lot of

    21 time doing his work. As far as I know about his

    22 occupation, he must have been doing that kind of work.

    23 Q. So as far as I understand, you're not sure

    24 that he was a member of the village guards?

    25 A. I'm not sure.

  67. 1 Q. Tell me, a forester, during the war was it

    2 dangerous to go through the woods?

    3 A. Well, there were troops in the woods during

    4 the war.

    5 Q. Should a forester go through the woods when

    6 there were troops there?

    7 A. No, probably not. Probably he didn't go

    8 there then.

    9 Q. Where didn't he go?

    10 A. He didn't go through the woods during the

    11 war.

    12 Q. Do you know what branch of the army he served

    13 when he did his regular military service?

    14 A. I don't know. I just know that he did his

    15 military service in the JNA.

    16 Q. Does a person need to be trained to use a

    17 mortar?

    18 A. Yes, of course.

    19 Q. And in the event of war, if a person is

    20 issued a weapon may he be issued another kind of weapon

    21 than the one he was trained to use?

    22 A. Well, out of necessity probably, yes.

    23 Q. You mentioned today what Dragan Papic told

    24 you and you remember that well. Could you tell us the

    25 story how he met with Nenad Santic and where?

  68. 1 A. I don't know where they met. He just told me

    2 that Nenad Santic had told him to go there. I know

    3 that Nenad Santic was in charge of the village guards

    4 on their side.

    5 Q. Was Papic a member of the same village guards

    6 as Nenad Santic?

    7 A. Probably, yes.

    8 Q. Not probably, yes or no?

    9 A. I think yes.

    10 Q. So he told you nothing else about the

    11 circumstances?

    12 A. No.

    13 MR. SUSAK: Thank you. I have no further

    14 questions.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Blaxill?

    16 Cross-examined by Mr. Blaxill:

    17 Q. Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

    18 Good afternoon, Mr. Santic. My name is

    19 Michael Blaxill, I'm one of the Prosecutors in this

    20 case. I do have just a few questions for you as a

    21 result of what you've been saying here this morning.

    22 Now, where you lived, how far was that from

    23 the home of Dragan Papic?

    24 A. About 700 or 800 metres, up to 1.000. I

    25 never measured it so I can't be very precise.

  69. 1 Q. Could I ask in a different way: How far was

    2 it if you actually had to walk rather than just in a

    3 straight line? The actual route, do you know how far

    4 that was?

    5 A. It took about roughly 20 minutes.

    6 Q. About 20 minutes between your home and his

    7 home on foot?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. I see.

    10 A. Yes, yes.

    11 Q. And -- sorry.

    12 A. Perhaps even a little less, but roughly that

    13 would be it.

    14 Q. Thank you. I noticed, sir, that for the

    15 purposes of looking at the map you, like myself,

    16 resorted to spectacles. Do you wear those simply for

    17 things like reading or do you wear them as a normal

    18 requirement for all lengths of vision?

    19 A. Only for reading.

    20 Q. Now, you said around April '92 you formed the

    21 village guards in your own particular village; is that

    22 correct, sir?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. And this was a village guard totally separate

    25 from the village guards formed over towards Zume and

  70. 1 Santici by Mr. Nenad Santic and his neighbours there?

    2 A. Yes, it was separate, separate.

    3 Q. And if I may just confirm, sir. How many

    4 members did your guard have, your village guard, at

    5 that time?

    6 A. There may have been eight, maybe ten on the

    7 outside, men.

    8 Q. And in the earlier part in '92, did you, in

    9 fact, perform a sort of 24-hour guard, or did you just

    10 guard in the night or something of that nature?

    11 A. In '92 guard duty was kept only at night,

    12 from 10.00 in the evening, 22.00 hours, until about

    13 6.00 in the morning.

    14 Q. And how many of you would form a guard for a

    15 particular night-shift?

    16 A. Roughly -- our shifts would be three or four

    17 hours. Four men one night, four men the next night.

    18 Q. Probably I am just being obtuse and not fully

    19 understanding. You said you would actually do the

    20 whole of the hours of darkness. So that would be

    21 through a whole night. So when you say your shifts are

    22 four hours, do you mean that one shift would do four

    23 hours in that night and then the next shift would come

    24 on and do the other fours hours or so through the

    25 night?

  71. 1 A. Yes, yes, yes. Yes, we would take turns.

    2 The village was a small one. We didn't have many men,

    3 so the night hours we would share. One would arrive

    4 late at night and stay until 5.00 or 6.00 in the

    5 morning.

    6 Q. And presumably the Radak bridge was part of

    7 that area that you would patrol during that time?

    8 A. Yes, it was.

    9 Q. And about how many nights a week would you

    10 personally, as an individual member of the guard, be

    11 required to perform that duty?

    12 A. I don't understand the question. Could you

    13 repeat it, please?

    14 Q. Well, you as an individual or any other

    15 member of the guard as an individual, how many times a

    16 week would they have to do a night's guard? Would you

    17 do it once a week, four times a week?

    18 A. Every other night four men would be on guard

    19 duty.

    20 Q. And how many nights a week did you find

    21 yourself doing as a regular duty?

    22 A. Roughly three nights it would be me with

    23 another three men, and then the other three nights

    24 would be another four men.

    25 Q. Thank you very much. Sir, moving to the 20th

  72. 1 of October, 1992, you returned home. Did you stay in

    2 your house for the rest of the day?

    3 A. Yes. I stayed in the house, but I went out

    4 too, outside the house, because the gunfire lasted for

    5 a long time. I went to Njive where Dragan Papic was,

    6 and then I would come home and so on.

    7 Q. And about how far is Njive from your home, in

    8 walking distance?

    9 A. Well, about a hundred, a hundred and fifty

    10 metres, something like that.

    11 Q. So as regards the events in the Ahmici area

    12 on the 20th of October, you have stated to this court

    13 that, of course, you have no direct personal knowledge

    14 of those events because you weren't there; is that

    15 correct?

    16 A. I wasn't there and I can't say, but I've

    17 already told you what I heard.

    18 Q. Indeed, sir, we won't go over that again.

    19 You said that it was about 08.00 that Mr. Dragan Papic

    20 arrived near your house. That's correct, sir?

    21 A. Roughly, yes. I may be 10 or 15 minutes off

    22 the mark, but around 8.00 anyway.

    23 Q. And he set up his mortar obviously about a

    24 hundred metres from your home?

    25 A. A hundred or a hundred and fifty metres south

  73. 1 of my house.

    2 Q. Thank you. And when was it in that day that

    3 you saw Dragan Papic again after your encounter at 8.00

    4 in the morning?

    5 A. I don't know. It could have been about 11.00

    6 or 12.00 when I went to Njive again.

    7 Q. And I believe you say he then came back down

    8 from that position at about 4.00 in the afternoon and

    9 it had been totally quiet all day?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. And there had been no firing or no --

    12 A. There was no firing at all.

    13 Q. Now, did anyone from the HVO, or anybody

    14 military or with a weapon turn up on the following day,

    15 the 21st of October, and come back to that position?

    16 A. No, no.

    17 Q. Sir, did Mr. Dragan Papic tell you where he

    18 had got the mortar?

    19 A. He told me that Nenad Santic had given it to

    20 him. That's what he told me in the morning already,

    21 and that he had sent him to go to Njive.

    22 Q. And you were not home when the people came to

    23 collect the mortar a couple of days later; is that

    24 right?

    25 A. I wasn't. I went to work. I didn't go on

  74. 1 the 20th of October, that day only, but the next day I

    2 already went back to work because everything was quiet.

    3 Q. Thank you.

    4 Your Honour, I'm just looking at the time.

    5 I'm moving on to an entirely different subject. It

    6 might make a natural break period to take the break.


    8 --- Recess taken at 12.12 p.m.

    9 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Blaxill.

    11 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Mr. President.

    12 Q. Mr. Santic, I said just before the break I

    13 was moving to a new topic, but there's just one final

    14 question I would like to ask you, on reflection,

    15 relating to the 20th of October.

    16 Can you say how many more visits you made to

    17 Njive in the course of that day after 11.00 in the

    18 morning?

    19 A. I don't know. Perhaps about 1.00. I stayed

    20 a while and then I went back.

    21 Q. I see. So those were the occasions that day

    22 that you saw Mr. Dragan Papic, around 11.00, around

    23 1.00 and around 4.00, obviously after your first

    24 meeting at 8.00 in the morning.

    25 A. Yes, yes.

  75. 1 Q. Thank you so much. Now, in January 1993 you

    2 state that as a result of the conflict in the Busovaca

    3 area you stepped up the conduct of the guard, the

    4 village guard. What, in fact, did you do to intensify

    5 the actions of the village guard?

    6 A. Well, we sought to protect the whole village,

    7 particularly the area facing the Muslim villages,

    8 Pezici, Gornja Rovna and Kovaci.

    9 Q. So did you, in fact, increase your guards in

    10 numbers or did you just increase in the amount of

    11 territory that you patrolled?

    12 A. Yes, the number was increased. Some older

    13 men joined in. After this happened in Busovaca it

    14 became more dangerous, so there were at least ten of us

    15 every night, maybe even more, to ensure security each

    16 night.

    17 Q. And again, did you operate as a group of ten,

    18 or did you divide into smaller squads to carry out your

    19 patrols?

    20 A. No, we divided up.

    21 Q. Did you in fact still follow the four-man

    22 patrol squads that you had used before?

    23 A. No, we increased the number to ten or even

    24 twelve men.

    25 Q. You would actually patrol together as one

  76. 1 group; is that right?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Thank you. I want to be clear I understand

    4 you, sir.

    5 You have stated that on the 15th of April,

    6 all was calm, but you heard firing starting very early

    7 the following morning, the 16th of April.

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Do you recall the time that you noticed the

    10 firing? Did you check the time?

    11 A. We noticed the firing about 6.00 in the

    12 morning.

    13 Q. And how much longer after that was it that

    14 you encountered Mr. Dragan Papic and his family?

    15 A. I was at the bridge, the Radak bridge, and

    16 Dragan came by with his wife. He stayed there just for

    17 about ten minutes, until he put them up in my brother's

    18 house.

    19 Q. Also you had stated that you had noticed the

    20 firing at about 6.00 and your next reference is to

    21 being at the bridge.

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. When you got up, what was the first thing you

    24 did, having heard the firing?

    25 A. First of all, I didn't get up. I was

  77. 1 already -- we were on guard, in the night guards. We

    2 got to the bridge when we heard the fire because our

    3 priority was to protect the bridge.

    4 Q. How did you know that that was the priority?

    5 Was this something that you as a group realised was a

    6 necessity, or had you received some form of

    7 instructions or orders from someone?

    8 A. I received -- I received orders to make sure

    9 to watch over Radak's bridge during the night patrols,

    10 and also the right bank of the Lasva River, which

    11 belongs to Busovaca municipality.

    12 Q. And where did your orders come from, sir?

    13 A. My orders came from Busovaca.

    14 Q. And was that an HVO headquarters in Busovaca?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Now, you went to the bridge; about what time

    17 do you recall arriving at the Radak bridge?

    18 A. About 6.00, a couple of minutes after 6.00.

    19 Q. And I believe you've already told us a few

    20 minutes later Mr. Dragan Papic appeared. Now --

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. He went to stay at -- I believe you said your

    23 brother's house, the Papic family; is that correct?

    24 A. Yes, it is. Yes, that is correct, at my

    25 brother's house.

  78. 1 Q. And when he had settled his womenfolk,

    2 Mr. Papic returned to the bridge. Is that correct?

    3 A. Yes. Yes.

    4 Q. And I believe you confirmed that he came

    5 obviously from your direction, at your village, across

    6 the bridge to join Mr. Ivo Vidovic on the other side;

    7 is that right?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. You knew Mr. Vidovic, I presume?

    10 A. Yes, I knew both Vidovics.

    11 Q. Because I believe there was a third man there

    12 that was Mr. Dragan Vidovic; would that be correct?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Now, do you -- how many other people were

    15 actually serving with you at that time when you started

    16 duty at the bridge on the 16th of April?

    17 A. At that moment, there were three men with me

    18 on the right-hand bank of the Lasva River.

    19 Q. Could you tell me, sir, who they were?

    20 A. Out of the ten or so men, it could have been

    21 Zoran Santic, Jozo Alilovic, Pero Alilovic. I think it

    22 was the three of them.

    23 Q. So to the best of your recollection, they

    24 were the three men who were with you in the early

    25 morning of the 16th of April '93?

  79. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Sir, you seem a little hesitant; your memory

    3 is not entirely certain? Would that be so?

    4 A. I'm certain that they were there. It was

    5 most probable that the -- the three of them with me. I

    6 had ten men with me, and then they were dispersed to

    7 other places. But Jozo Alilovic never moved away,

    8 because these others were less serious, and we had to

    9 make sure that no sabotage activities could take

    10 place.

    11 Q. So having dispersed some of the members of

    12 the ten-man guard, how many of you took up position at

    13 the end of the bridge, if I can use that expression?

    14 A. At the end of the bridge, there was me and

    15 three other men. Three other soldiers.

    16 Q. And are the three gentlemen you've named the

    17 three soldiers you recall being with you at that point?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Thank you. How long did you remain in that

    20 position, at that location, that morning?

    21 A. That morning I stayed all day and all night

    22 there.

    23 Q. Did you at any time, yourself, leave the

    24 location to go and seek refreshment or take rest?

    25 A. No, I didn't. They would bring us

  80. 1 refreshment and food.

    2 Q. Did you -- was there any firing that was

    3 causing a danger to yourself and your fellow guards at

    4 that point and at that time?

    5 A. There was shooting; there were all kinds of

    6 things, and we didn't dare move around. We just had to

    7 keep quiet so as to give ourselves a chance to take a

    8 rest, to take a breather.

    9 Q. And I presume I could suggest that -- did you

    10 keep yourselves under cover as best you could, either

    11 in a trench, or behind some form of protection?

    12 A. Yes, we were under cover in trenches, because

    13 there were three trenches on the right-hand side of the

    14 Lasva River, as I have already mentioned.

    15 Q. Did you observe the activities of the guards

    16 on the other side of the bridge, namely Mr. Papic and

    17 the two gentlemen by the name of Vidovic?

    18 A. Yes, I did.

    19 Q. Did they in fact take cover and keep their

    20 heads down? Were they in some similar danger?

    21 A. They also had two trenches, and the third --

    22 there were only three of them on the other side of the

    23 bridge -- they stayed in the house of Pero Ljubas, so

    24 one was resting and two of them were on the left-hand

    25 bank of the Lasva River.

  81. 1 Q. And presumably in what was obviously a

    2 hazardous position for some days at that bridge, both

    3 at your side of the bridge and their side of the

    4 bridge, you would keep yourself very much under cover;

    5 that would be sensible. Would that be correct?

    6 A. Yes, that is correct.

    7 Q. And as the days would unfold, the second and

    8 the third and the fourth day, you would, would you not,

    9 rotate yourselves to go off and take some rest?

    10 A. Yes, of course we did. Those of us who were

    11 on the Donja Rovna side, we had sufficient soldiers,

    12 and there were no attacks against Donja Rovna. We just

    13 had to watch over the Radak bridge, which was

    14 strategically important, and we had to look after it.

    15 Q. So if I can encapsulate the point at this

    16 time, certainly on that first day, the 16th of April,

    17 you were out of sight of the guards on the other side

    18 of the bridge, and they were out of your sight for

    19 periods of time, because presumably you were taking

    20 cover from the danger that was present; would that be

    21 fair to say?

    22 A. It is true that we could see each other. We

    23 couldn't get out of the trenches, but we could see each

    24 other. At least those who were on duty at the time.

    25 Q. But of course as well during the day, people

  82. 1 were -- in the case of those guards, the other side,

    2 going to the house for rest; and as for your guards,

    3 were you going back to your own homes to take rest?

    4 A. My guards went home too, but they were

    5 protected by the willow trees. But I didn't leave for

    6 20, maybe 30 hours.

    7 Q. So where did you find safe shelter to take a

    8 rest from your guard duty?

    9 A. We went to our houses.

    10 Q. Well, I'm sorry; I thought you said that you

    11 didn't have the shelter, so that you stayed for about

    12 30 hours. Did you not take rest during those 30 hours

    13 when you stayed on guard?

    14 A. I did not at all. I didn't take any rest.

    15 My soldiers did, but I didn't, because I couldn't allow

    16 it. As the commander of this group of people, I

    17 couldn't leave them, and in case something should

    18 happen for which I would be made responsible.

    19 Q. After that first day, and as we go over the

    20 subsequent days, did conditions allow for you in fact

    21 to take rest at home and be away from the bridge for a

    22 while?

    23 A. Later I could move away, because I had a

    24 reliable older man, and he was Jozo Alilovic. So he

    25 would take over when I went to rest.

  83. 1 Q. And how long would your rest periods last? I

    2 mean, was it a regular thing, or did it -- only a few

    3 hours at a time? Was it a strict routine, or not?

    4 A. No. When you felt sleepy, you could have a

    5 nap for two, three, sometimes four hours.

    6 Q. And of course at those times you'd be away

    7 from the bridge, so you would not know the whereabouts

    8 of the guards on the other end of the bridge as such,

    9 because you wouldn't be there; is that right?

    10 A. Yes, it is true. When I was away, I couldn't

    11 see them then, but my colleague who replaced me could

    12 see them.

    13 Q. But if for any reason, either by way of

    14 orders or for whatever reason, one of them might have

    15 slipped away from the position, and if your colleague

    16 didn't tell you about it, you would not have known;

    17 would that be fair to say?

    18 A. I don't think so. I don't think during the

    19 first few days it was possible to leave guard duty,

    20 especially on the Vitez side of the Lasva River,

    21 because the shooting was coming from that side. So

    22 that even if there was time, people could not leave

    23 those positions.

    24 Q. Well, sir, from the photographs we have seen

    25 there appear to be buildings and foliage and trees, so

  84. 1 I suppose a soldier or a guard could try and slip away

    2 from the position without being shot? It's a

    3 possibility, is it not?

    4 A. Perhaps it is possible, but as far as I know,

    5 I think the order was that no one should move away,

    6 even if it was possible. But I believe that it was not

    7 possible to pass and reach the main road.

    8 Q. So, sir, over the next few days, you were

    9 aware from personal observations of the presence of

    10 Mr. Dragan Papic as one of the guards at that bridge;

    11 is that correct?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. And do you recall the date when he left that

    14 location?

    15 A. I do not recall the date. That is why I said

    16 that for seven, eight, or ten days, he was there on

    17 guard duty. I would see him there. After that, he

    18 left; I heard that his wife had had a baby. And then

    19 he didn't come back until the time I was wounded.

    20 Where he went, I don't know.

    21 Q. The point is, sir, you have suggested with

    22 some certainty of the 24-hour presence of Mr. Dragan

    23 Papic, and you say that this was by virtual constant

    24 observation, but you don't in fact recall the exact

    25 number of days that you made these observations; you're

  85. 1 not certain whether it was seven days, eight, nine, or

    2 ten days that he was actually at the bridge?

    3 A. At least seven days. I didn't count the

    4 days. Maybe even ten days.

    5 Q. And of course he was in a different chain of

    6 command to yourself so you would not be aware of any

    7 orders he received or instructions or, indeed, any

    8 discipline exerted by his commander; is that right? It

    9 wasn't your unit?

    10 A. I don't know about that, but as far as we

    11 discussed these things, when we had the time he said

    12 that they weren't allowed to go anywhere, that they had

    13 secured Pero Ljubas's house so that the person who was

    14 resting could go to that house. But otherwise they had

    15 to keep watch duty.

    16 Q. Mr. Santic, I am going to just ask you a few

    17 names of persons. I believe they may have been people

    18 based in the Busovaca command, as it were, and I just

    19 wonder if you recognise these names. Mr. Zdravko

    20 Prankovic, does that name ring a bell?

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. Do you know a Mr. Stipica Santic, Stipica

    23 Santic?

    24 A. From Busovaca? No.

    25 Q. A Zeljko Grbavac?

  86. 1 A. No.

    2 Q. Mr. Dragan Papic?

    3 A. Dragan, yes, I know Dragan.

    4 Q. And Ivica Krizanac?

    5 A. No.

    6 Q. Thank you very much.

    7 Just a moment to confer, if I may, Your

    8 Honours, and then I believe I might be able to conclude

    9 quickly.

    10 Thank you, Your Honours. I do have just one

    11 or two further matters.

    12 Your colleague, Mr. Santic, Mr. Dragan

    13 Vidovic, who was serving, I believe, the other end of

    14 the bridge, did you know him personally?

    15 A. Dragan? Yes.

    16 Q. Could you tell me how old he was, at that

    17 time, 1993?

    18 A. Dragan Papic -- Dragan Vidovic, maybe 24, 25,

    19 26. I don't know exactly.

    20 Q. Do you know what his father's name was,

    21 Dragan's father?

    22 A. I do. Franjo.

    23 Q. Franjo. Thank you. Do you know where they

    24 lived, their address, or at least close to their street

    25 or something?

  87. 1 A. Santici. The upper part of Santici. I don't

    2 know how else I could explain it. Also known as Zume.

    3 Q. Thank you. Whilst you were doing your guard

    4 duty at the bridge, the Radak bridge, did you receive

    5 orders still via or from the Busovaca HVO, HQ?

    6 A. No. There were some tours, they would come

    7 to see whether everything was all right.

    8 Q. So you --

    9 A. And then they would say, "Yes, that's fine,

    10 be careful," and so on.

    11 Q. These would be tours by HVO personnel from

    12 Busovaca? Yes? Busovaca. I'm sorry.

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Thank you. About how many times did they

    15 come? Was it once a week or every couple of days? Can

    16 you tell me?

    17 A. Every two or three days. It depended.

    18 Sometimes they would come during the night for checkup.

    19 MR. BLAXILL: I am obliged. Thank you very

    20 much, Your Honours. That concludes the

    21 cross-examination. Thank you.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Puliselic.

    23 MR. PULISELIC: I have no questions, Your

    24 Honour.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. We don't have any

  88. 1 questions either.

    2 Mr. Santic, thank you for giving evidence in

    3 Court. You may now be released. Thank you.

    4 THE WITNESS: Your welcome. Thank you too.

    5 (The witness withdrew)

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Now, we could just use this

    7 few minutes just to go through some housekeeping

    8 matters. First of all, we would like to let you know

    9 the schedule for the next few months. I think you

    10 already know about February, March and April, and April

    11 as well, and May as well. May, I may remember, I may

    12 remind you, that in May we will sit from the 3rd to the

    13 7th and then from the 25th to the 28th. 24th is -- I

    14 think it's a holiday. So 25th, which is Tuesday,

    15 through 28th. Then again on the 31st of May.

    16 Now, let us now move to June. June, from the

    17 1st to the 4th, and then from the 21st through to

    18 29th. After that we have a Plenary Session of the

    19 Tribunal. We will reconvene in July, on the 5th of

    20 July for three weeks, from the 5th to the 23rd of July,

    21 and we very much hope that the Defence may conclude

    22 their case by the 23rd of July.

    23 We have set aside two weeks in September,

    24 from the 13th to the 24th, for closing statements and,

    25 if need be, for any rebuttal evidence. The 13th,

  89. 1 24th. So that if we conclude, finish on the 24th, we

    2 may be able in three months to draft and deliver our

    3 judgment before Christmas, before the end of December.

    4 We will need a minimum of three months, of course.

    5 All right. Any comments? You may appreciate

    6 that we, of course, have other cases. Any comments

    7 from the Prosecution?

    8 MR. TERRIER: No, Mr. President.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. If there are no

    10 other matters, we may adjourn now. So we adjourn until

    11 next Wednesday at 9.00 sharp.

    12 --- Whereupon hearing adjourned at 1.00

    13 p.m. to be reconvened on Wednesday, the

    14 24th day of February, 1999 at 9.00 a.m.