Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8660

          1                 Tuesday, 23rd March, 1999

          2                 (Open session)

          3                 (The accused entered court)

          4                 (The witness entered court)

          5                 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

          6            THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

          7  Case number IT-95-16-T,the Prosecutor versus Zoran

          8  Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago

          9  Josipovic, Dragan Papic and Vladimir Santic.

         10            JUDGE CASSESE:  Good morning.  Yes,

         11  Counsel Par?

         12            MR. PAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  I

         13  should like to inform the Court that the witness Mirko

         14  Vidovic is here, and he brought along the originals of

         15  the documents mentioned yesterday here.  Also, we can

         16  say that my learned friend from the Prosecution has had

         17  an opportunity to scrutinise these documents before

         18  this session, and I should like everybody to look at

         19  these documents, and I also wish to tender them as

         20  Exhibits D28/3, D29/3, and D30/3.  The witness is here,

         21  and if need be he can answer any additional questions

         22  regarding these documents.  Thank you.

         23                 (Trial Chamber deliberates)

         24            JUDGE CASSESE:  We would like to ask the

         25  witness to explain the meaning of the stamp on page 19

Page 8661

1  of his passport "Ausnahme Fur Die Bundesrepublik

          2  Deutschland," dated the 24th of September, '92.

          3                 WITNESS:  MIRKO VIDOVIC

          4       JUDGE CASSESE:  Could you please, Mr. Vidovic,

          5  could you please tell us when this stamp was put on

          6  your passport and for which purpose?  It was put by the

          7  border police.

          8       A.   Yes.

          9            JUDGE CASSESE:  When and for which purpose?

         10       A.   As a tourist, on the 24th of September, '92.

         11            JUDGE CASSESE:  Sorry.  As a tourist, were

         12  you going to Germany or were you leaving Germany?

         13       A.   Entering.

         14            JUDGE CASSESE:  You were entering.

         15       A.   Yes.

         16            JUDGE CASSESE:  Now, I think I can read here

         17  "autobahn."  So that means it was the border -- you

         18  didn't go by train?  Did you go there by train or by

         19  car?

         20       A.   By car.

         21            JUDGE CASSESE:  Is so that means that each

         22  time you entered Germany you got such a stamp on your

         23  passport; is it so?

         24       A.   No.

         25            JUDGE CASSESE:  Why not?  Because on other

Page 8662

          1  occasions you also went there by car and there was no

          2  such stamp.

          3       A.   Because he sent my documents to the border in

          4  Salzburg that he was taking us in in his name, and to

          5  know how it goes from there by fax.  I received a

          6  message from fax that he was taking us in to his place

          7  as a tourist, as far as I can remember.

          8                 (Trial Chamber deliberates)

          9            JUDGE CASSESE:  Tell me, Mr. Vidovic, is this

         10  an old passport which you are no longer using?

         11       A.   I did not use it.

         12            JUDGE CASSESE:  So you can leave it?  I mean,

         13  I don't know whether Counsel Par is agreeable.  Can it

         14  be put in evidence, the original passport?

         15  Otherwise, we have to take very clear photos of the

         16  whole passport.

         17            MR. PAR:  Yes, by all means, Your Honours.

         18  All these documents, if necessary.  We have to ask the

         19  witness whether he will need these documents for

         20  anything.

         21       Q.   Do you need these documents?

         22       A.   No, I do not.

         23            MR. PAR:  So I think all these documents --

         24  not only the passport but all the other papers could

         25  also be entered in as exhibits.

Page 8663

          1            JUDGE CASSESE:  Counsel Radovic?

          2            MR. RADOVIC:  We received the original

          3  documents today.  If I may, Your Honours, I should like

          4  to ask two questions in order to clarify this German

          5  visa.

          6            JUDGE CASSESE:  All right.

          7            MR. RADOVIC:

          8       Q.   When you were issued this German visa to

          9  enter Germany -- would you look at it -- what period of

         10  time were you granted that, three months until the 23rd

         11  of December.  It says the 24th of September '92 until

         12  the 23rd of December, '92.

         13       A.   Yes.

         14       Q.   Was it a multiple entry visa for Germany or

         15  was it a single entry visa?  I'm referring, of course,

         16  to the period of this time.

         17       A.   During this period of time I could come in

         18  and go out many times.

         19            MR. RADOVIC:  Thank you.  I have no more

         20  questions.

         21            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you, Counsel Radovic.

         22            Mr. Terrier.

         23            MR. TERRIER:  Excuse me, Mr. President.

         24  Allow me to make some observations on this document

         25  which I had the time to look at for a couple of minutes

Page 8664

          1  before.

          2            By all accounts, it seems like it is a visa

          3  issued the 24th of September, 1992, valid for three

          4  months, but there is a first advertisement or

          5  announcement of expulsion of eviction on the first

          6  page, and on the following page there is another such

          7  indication.  So by looking at the document for the

          8  first time, it looks as though this witness had been

          9  evicted or had been expelled out of the German Republic

         10  on two accounts.

         11            JUDGE CASSESE:  There is a stamp on the page

12  before the Ausnahme visa.

         13            MR. TERRIER:  It's not the one we have had a

         14  look at, it is another one but with different

         15  handwriting and no date.  So we can wonder whether the

         16  witness was not, as a matter of fact, expelled on two

         17  occasions out of the German Federal Republic, possibly

         18  during the duration -- the valid duration of his

         19  passport, because, as you know, anyone can be taken to

         20  the border and expelled if there is any violation, if

         21  you're working in the black market or for other reasons

         22  of the type, and the witness did not conceal the fact

         23  that he had worked illegally in Germany.

         24            I had another question by looking at that

         25  document.  We see on several accounts entry visas into

Page 8665

          1  Croatia, the border between Bosnia-Herzegovina and

          2  Croatia was crossed on several occasions late in

          3  December 1992 and earlier 1993.

          4            In March, 1993, the border pass was issued,

          5  and some kind of a permanent permit which allows you to

          6  cross the border, and that permit is valid for three

          7  months.  It looks as though the witness was often going

          8  to Croatia during that time, and that he even was

          9  entitled to have an easy access to that border between

         10  Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia.

         11            There has been no explanation for it, no

         12  explanation coming from his trade or occupation,

         13  because he seems to be a worker in a shop or a company

         14  for building materials, and that doesn't justify the

         15  many journeys he has undertaken, he undertook then.  So

         16  these are the two questions I had in mind which I

         17  wanted to put to you.

         18            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.

         19                 (Trial Chamber deliberates)

         20            MR. PAR:  Mr. President, excuse me, but in

         21  relation to the matters raised by my learned friends, I

         22  suggest that we immediately ask the witness if we can

         23  clarify that.  Is it true that he crossed with that

         24  card on several occasions?

         25            Perhaps we should not make any undue

Page 8666

          1  inferences, since the witness is here.  Perhaps we

          2  could examine him to this fact, and if my learned

          3  friend from the Prosecution does not want to do that

          4  then perhaps I could ask him some questions regarding

          5  this matter.

          6            JUDGE CASSESE:  What do you mean this

          7  letter?  You mean this border pass?

          8            MR. PAR:  Yes.  If I understood my learned

          9  friend properly, he said that this card, this border

         10  pass, allows one to cross the Croatian-Bosnian border

         11  within a three-month period, and he answered

         12  yesterday's dilemma, why was the stamp missing from

         13  this document, because the stamp is for one crossing

         14  and the card is for multiple crossings.  The

         15  Prosecution then infers that the witness crossed the

         16  border many times during the time without any obvious

         17  reasons to do so.

         18            The Defence claims, on the basis of this

         19  card, that he only entered once Croatia to go to

         20  Germany and this seems to become a disputable issue.

         21  I'm proposing that we examine the witness, whether he

         22  used the card only once and then went to Germany, or

         23  was he constantly moving to and fro between Bosnia and

         24  Croatia.

         25                 (Trial Chamber deliberates)

Page 8667

          1            MR. PAR:  If I may, Your Honours, may I ask

          2  two or three questions of this witness to try to

          3  clarify this issue?

          4            JUDGE CASSESE:  Well, if you wish.  If you

          5  insist, yes, but very briefly, because we think that we

          6  have the evidence of the witness.  As for the exhibits,

          7  it is very clear that the only exhibit which is

          8  convincing -- well, the only exhibit that proves he was

          9  in Germany is the Germany deportation order of the.

         10  29th of July, '93, and that's all.  As for his trips to

         11  Croatia from Germany in March or April '93, we have

         12  only his testimony.  But, as I say, if you wish to put

         13  questions, do so but very briefly, please.

         14            MR. PAR:  Yes, I will be very brief.

         15       Q.   Mirko, please, with this border pass of the

         16  22nd of March, '93, did you go out of

         17  Bosnia-Herzegovina on the basis of that, you went to

         18  Germany?

         19       A.   I did.

         20       Q.   Whether within this period of time between

         21  the 22nd of March, '93 until June '95, did you ever

         22  come back to Bosnia and use this card?

         23       A.   No.

         24       Q.   Was your entry into Germany only single, only

         25  one of the basis of this pass, or did you have several

Page 8668

          1  entries into Germany.

          2       A.   No, this is the card to enter once when you

          3  come.  When you get there you get this card and the

          4  date is written there.

          5       Q.   On the 1st of June when you entered Germany,

          6  did you come out and go in again?

          7       A.   No.

          8            MR. PAR:  I have no more questions.  Thank

          9  you.

         10            MR. TERRIER:  I have no questions, but

         11  Mr. Par apparently asked the question of the witness,

         12  who answered in the affirmative.  He asked whether he

         13  entered Germany on the basis, on the strength of the

         14  border pass, but obviously the border pass doesn't make

         15  it possible for Mr. Vidovic to go to Germany but,

         16  rather, to Croatia.  There seems to be a

         17  misunderstanding either in the question or in the

         18  answer or in either, but I have no question.

         19            JUDGE CASSESE:  All right.  I think we have

         20  now sufficiently delved into this matter.  If there is

         21  no objection, we can release Mr. Vidovic.

         22            Mr. Vidovic, thank you for giving evidence.

         23  Thank you also for these documents.

         24                 (The witness withdrew)

         25            MR. PAR:  I don't know what you decided to

Page 8669

          1  admit as Exhibits D28, 29 and 30/3.  Were they

          2  admitted?

          3            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes.  If there is no

          4  objection from the Prosecution we shall admit into

          5  evidence the originals.

          6            I assume this is Mr. Rajic?

          7                 (The witness entered court).

          8            JUDGE CASSESE:  Good morning, Mr. Rajic.

          9            THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

         10            JUDGE CASSESE:  Could you please make the

         11  solemn declaration.

         12            THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will

         13  speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

         14  truth.

         15            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  You may sit

         16  down.

         17            Counsel Slokovic-Glumac?

         18            MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:  Thank you,

         19  Mr. President.

         20                 WITNESS:  ANTO RAJIC

         21                 Examined by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac:

         22       Q.   Good morning, Mr. Rajic.

         23       A.   Good morning.

         24       Q.   Will you please introduce yourself?

         25       A.   I am Anto Rajic, born on the 22nd

Page 8670

          1  February, '53, in Vitez.

          2       Q.   And your place of residence?

          3       A.   My place of residence is Vitez.

          4       Q.   Will you please tell us your address?

          5       A.   Santici.  No number.

          6       Q.   Will you please, on this [redacted] air

          7  photograph, show us where your house is?  I don't know

          8  if you can see it here.

          9       A.   No, you can't see it here, but this is my

         10  brother's house (indicating), and right next to it is

         11  mine.

         12       Q.   So somewhere in this lower end?

         13       A.   Yes.

         14       Q.   Tell us, please, are you related to Zoran and

         15  Mirjan Kupreskic?

         16       A.   Yes, their sister is my wife.

         17       Q.   In your part of the village, in Santici, were

         18  the majority there Croats, or Muslims?

         19       A.   The majority were Croats, but there were also

         20  some Muslims.

         21       Q.   How many Muslim houses were there in that

         22  part of the village?

         23       A.   Well, some four or five.  Five.  Five houses.

         24       Q.   Do you know who owned them?  Could you give

         25  us their names, please?

Page 8671

          1       A.   Serif Ahmic, his brother-in-law, Naho

          2  Sabanovic, [redacted] but he has been in

          3  Germany for a long time, so I don't know his name.  But

          4  two sons-in-law, and Serif [redacted] daughter also lived

          5  in that part.

          6       Q.   In that part of Santici, what were the

          7  inter-ethnic relations, or rather relations between

          8  Croats and Muslims?

          9       A.   Oh, well, they were very good.  It was mostly

         10  young people, with the exception of Serif, who was a

         11  man of advanced age.  He was 65, 70, something.

         12       Q.   There were no problems?

         13       A.   No.  We even socialised when we were younger.

         14       Q.   In 1992, where did you work then?

         15       A.   In 1992, I worked at Vitezit.  That is, it is

         16  called Vitezit today.  At that time it was called SPS.

         17       Q.   And what was your job?

         18       A.   I was a high-skilled metal worker.

         19       Q.   After your military service, did you have

         20  your reserve deployment?

         21       A.   Yes, at that time I was assigned to the then

         22  anti-aircraft defence, and that is where I was until

         23  the end, until 1992.

         24       Q.   You mean -- when you use this acronym, it

         25  means anti-aircraft defence; is that so?

Page 8672

          1       A.   Yes, it is.

          2       Q.   When were you mobilised?  When were you

          3  activated as a member of the AAD?

          4       A.   On the 8th of April, '92, two days after the

          5  attack on Sarajevo.  That's it.

          6       Q.   Why were you activated?  Why was the

          7  anti-aircraft defence activated in that area?

          8       A.   Because at that time there was already a

          9  danger of aircraft, because of the Serbs.  That is, a

         10  little later, the Serbs began to bombard, so that we

         11  protected the area between the SPS and Impregnacija.

         12  They are two companies in Vitez.  That is to say above

         13  the SPS factory and the Impregnacija.

         14       Q.   What was the significance of the possible

         15  bombing of the SPS?

         16       A.   It was an explosives factory, and of course

         17  there was a danger involved, that the entire city would

         18  be threatened if it were to be attacked.

         19       Q.   That is to say that the deployment was around

         20  those two factories?

         21       A.   Yes.

         22       Q.   How many guns were there on the anti-aircraft

         23  defence?

         24       A.   On the anti-aircraft defence there were

         25  twelve, 20 millimetres times 10, and eight of the 40s.

Page 8673

          1       Q.   You're talking about calibres, right, aren't

          2  you?

          3       A.   Yes, I am.

          4       Q.   Do you know, in terms of numbers, how many

          5  guns were at which particular position?

          6       A.   By Impregnacija there were five, and around

          7  Princip were the rest.

          8       Q.   And where were you?

          9       A.   I was around Impregnacija.

         10       Q.   Could you tell me whether this was just by

         11  Impregnacija, or a bit further away?

         12       A.   It was a field about 500 metres away from

         13  Impregnacija, not more than that, so in the immediate

         14  vicinity, in fact.

         15       Q.   Tell me, was Vitez ever shelled or bombed?

         16  Was it ever bombed by the Serb aviation in '92?

         17       A.   Yes, yes, twice.  Once in April and once

         18  sometime in July or August, somewhere around then.

         19       Q.   Tell me, where was the anti-aircraft defence

         20  first, within which military structure?

         21       A.   The anti-aircraft defence was within the TO,

         22  the Territorial Defence.  I didn't understand you

         23  well.  Yes, it was the Territorial Defence.

         24       Q.   Did you have TO insignia?

         25       A.   Yes.  Yes, for about two months, and then we

Page 8674

          1  had PZO insignia.  That was anti-aircraft defence.  The

          2  Muslims had TO, and then -- well, nothing was

          3  obligatory, really, because it was a joint thing.

          4       Q.   Did you have any uniforms?

          5       A.   Yes, yes, the Serb ones.  While we were TO,

          6  we had the olive grey uniforms, all the way up to June

          7  or July.

          8       Q.   These are JNA uniforms; right?

          9       A.   Yes.

         10       Q.   Tell me, in the PZO, in the anti-aircraft

         11  defence, did you also have Muslims with you?  You

         12  mentioned that they kept TO insignia?

         13       A.   Yes, yes, from the very outset, even before

         14  we were mobilised, they were in this PZO, or PVO; that

         15  is to say the anti-aircraft defence.  Yes, there were

         16  Muslims there, and that's the way it remained all the

         17  way up to October.  We were together, the composition

         18  was mixed, and we had two shifts.

         19       Q.   Did you hold these positions together?

         20       A.   Yes.

         21       Q.   Do you remember who your commander at that

         22  time was?

         23       A.   I can't remember his name.  He worked in the

         24  municipality, but he was there for a very short period

         25  of time, but then they changed something up there, the

Page 8675

          1  municipality.  I can't remember his name.  I simply

          2  cannot.  I tried, but I cannot.

          3       Q.   Was he a Muslim, or a Croat?

          4       A.   A Muslim.  A Muslim.

          5       Q.   Tell me, what did you do on the 20th of

          6  October, 1992?

          7       A.   On the 20th of October I was at home, because

          8  my shift was off that day, and in the evening at 10.00

          9  there was an alert -- not really an alert, but we were

         10  asked to go to man the guns.

         11       Q.   Are you talking about the 9th, or are you

         12  talking about the 10th -- are you talking about the

         13  19th of October, or are you talking about the 20th?

         14       A.   Yes, I'm talking about the 19th of October,

         15  in the evening, yes.

         16       Q.   All right.  And then?

         17       A.   We went to the positions.  There was some

         18  kind of an alert.  Nothing really happened, and then we

         19  went home, and then there was the regular shift at 6.00

         20  in the morning, or a bit before that, actually, because

         21  again there was danger of air strikes, so then we had

         22  to be there before dawn.  I was at the position at

         23  about 10 minutes to 6.00 or 15 minutes to 6.00.

         24       Q.   Which position were you at exactly?  This

         25  regular position of yours by Impregnacija?

Page 8676

          1       A.   Yes, yes, there.

          2       Q.   Then you were there on the 20th of October at

          3  quarter to 6.00; is that right?

          4       A.   Yes.

          5       Q.   Did you get any information about the

          6  anti-aircraft defence, whether you had to engage in

          7  combat action?  Did you receive such orders?

          8       A.   No, no.  It was only -- there was nothing at

          9  the time when he arrived, but then at 6.00 -- yes,

         10  around 6.00 in the morning, again there was a state of

         11  alert, and then the shooting started in [redacted], but we

         12  didn't receive any orders for combat action.

         13       Q.   So you heard shooting near Ahmici?

         14       A.   Yes.

         15       Q.   The position that you held in the field by

         16  Impregnacija, how far away is it from Ahmici?

         17       A.   Well, about a kilometre and a half, about

         18  1.500 metres.

         19       Q.   Were you in a position to take combat action

         20  against Ahmici at all?

         21       A.   No, not from that position.  No, that

         22  position was lower than Ahmici.  There is a small hill

         23  between us and Ahmici.  We couldn't even see Ahmici

         24  from there.  We could only see the upper part of

         25  Pirici.

Page 8677

          1       Q.   So it was physically impossible for you to

          2  operate from that position?

          3       A.   Yes, it was simply impossible to see anything

          4  from there.

          5       Q.   Was Midhat Berbic from Ahmici in the PZO in

          6  the anti-aircraft defence?

          7       A.   Yes, yes, from the very outset, even before

          8  that, yes, we were together.

          9       Q.   Was he with you at that position on the 20th

         10  of October, in the morning?

         11       A.   No, he was at a different position.  He was

         12  at a different position that was by the SPS factory.

         13       Q.   Did Muslims go into combat action against

         14  you?  Were they shooting against your positions?

         15       A.   No, not in those positions where the guns

         16  were.  There is Sivrino Selo village which is above

         17  those positions so there was no shooting whatsoever not

         18  using a gun, not using a rifle, nothing that day.  So

         19  we were there, on the ready, but no, there was no

         20  shooting.

         21       Q.   Were there any artillery attacks vis-ā-vis

         22  Ahmici that day?

         23       A.   Yes.

         24       Q.   Where from, from which position?

         25       A.   From the position of Hrasno.

Page 8678

          1       Q.   What did you say?

          2       A.   Hrasno.  Somebody calls it Hrasno and other

          3  people call it Rasno.

          4       Q.   And which municipality?  Which municipality

          5  does Hrasno belong to?

          6       A.   Well, that's municipality of Busovaca.

          7  Across the Lasva River, that's where the Busovaca

          8  municipality is.

          9       Q.   Who was operating on the territory of the

         10  Busovaca municipality?  Who had military control over

         11  it?  The HVO of Vitez or the HVO of Busovaca?

         12       A.   Naturally the HVO of Busovaca.

         13       Q.   Can you show us on this aerial image,

         14  perhaps, we can move this top one away and show you the

         15  other one, can you show us your positions around the

         16  Lasva River Valley and where Hrasno was?

         17            MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:  So could the usher

         18  please remove this aerial photograph of Ahmici.

         19       Q.   Mr. Rajic, you have to stand so that the

         20  Judges can see you too.

         21       A.   Just by the road, here (indicating).

         22       Q.   So by the road, that is where Impregnacija

         23  is?

         24       A.   Yes.

         25       Q.   And that is the field where you were

Page 8679

          1  positioned; right?  And where is Hrasno?

          2       A.   Hrasno is here (indicating).  Here.

          3            Can you hear me?

          4            We could not see this area where the gun was

          5  at Hrasno, we couldn't see it from our position.  So

          6  the gun at Hrasno was basically concealed.

          7       Q.   How come you knew that this artillery attack

          8  came from there?

          9       A.   Well, it's a small distance.  If it's 1.500

         10  metres to Ahmici, in this direction it could be about

         11  2.000 metres.  So you can hear artillery and you can

         12  also recognise the three-barrel gun when it shoots.

         13       Q.   Thank you.  Please be seated.

         14            Did the Muslims have some kind of artillery

         15  pieces in Sivrino Selo?

         16       A.   We didn't have any information, but we had

         17  heard they had a recoilless gun and that there was

         18  danger from there because from our positions Sivrino

         19  Selo was only about 500 metres away, even less than

         20  that.  So this was a danger for our guns.

         21       Q.   Sivrino Selo was Muslim, entirely Muslim;

         22  wasn't it?

         23       A.   Yes, yes.

         24       Q.   What happened with the PZO after the conflict

         25  on the 20th of October, 1992?

Page 8680

          1       A.   Then the PZO was divided.  It was literally

          2  divided, split up.  The cannons were split up between

          3  the Muslims and the Croats.  We or, rather, not we,

          4  the group from the upper position by Princip took two

          5  guns and two guns were taken, I don't know where, but

          6  they were taken to the Muslim side, at any rate.

          7       Q.   Do you know who took these guns away to the

          8  Muslim side?

          9       A.   Yes.

         10       Q.   Who did?

         11       A.   Midhat Berbic.  He was the commander and he

         12  took it over.  It was a group.  It was a simple

         13  split-up.  Two guns went this side, and two guns they

         14  took for themselves, and Midhat Berbic was there.

         15       Q.   He was the commander of this position by

         16  Princip; is that what you said?

         17       A.   Yes.  Yes, and it is from that position that

         18  these two guns were taken away, whereas the remaining

         19  four stayed with us.

         20       Q.   Tell me, do you know the reasons for the

         21  conflict on the 20th of October, 1992?  Do you know why

         22  a conflict took place?

         23       A.   Yes, I do.

         24       Q.   Please tell us.

         25       A.   The road between Busovaca-Travnik-Jajce was

Page 8681

          1  blocked.  The Muslims from Ahmici blocked the road by

          2  Topolsko cemetery, and that is when the shooting

          3  started because the Busovaca and the Kiseljak units

          4  were supposed to go to Novi Travnik, or rather, to

          5  Jajce.  Jajce was about to fall at that time.  Because

          6  of these tensions, they could not pass because of the

          7  Muslims and that is when this serious conflict broke

          8  out.

          9       Q.   Do you know who was killed on the Croatian

         10  side during this conflict and where that person was

         11  from?

         12       A.   Yes.  Yes, I know his last name.  His last

         13  name is Vidovic.  He's from Kiseljak, and he was

         14  killed.  On the Muslim side Pezer was killed, and I

         15  don't know his first name.

         16       Q.   Do you know whether the Croats from the

         17  village took part in the conflict in Ahmici on the 20th

         18  of October in any way?

         19       A.   No.  No, the Croats from Ahmici, Santici, and

         20  Pirici did not take part in this.  It was simply a

         21  blockade that was carried out by the Muslims, and the

         22  units from Kiseljak and Busovaca took part in this

         23  conflict on the other site.

         24       Q.   What is important is that you did not have

         25  any orders to take action, although your permanent

Page 8682

          1  position was there; is that right?

          2       A.   Yes, yes.  It was our permanent position.  We

          3  were on the ready, and then the three-barrel gun at

          4  Hrasno was operated, but we couldn't see it so we did

          5  not take any action all day.

          6       Q.   How long did you hear shooting that day?

          7       A.   Until sometime in the afternoon.  I don't

          8  know exactly what time it was.  It was scarcer and

          9  scarcer and then it finally stopped in the afternoon.

         10       Q.   How were your shifts organised?  How much

         11  time would you spend manning a gun?  How much time

         12  would you spend there and how much time would you spend

         13  at home?

         14       A.   Well, we would be on duty for three days and

         15  then we would spend three days at home, but we would

         16  always leave a guard overnight around the guns so that

         17  we could get some rest, because we would have to be

         18  there all day, and there were alerts because of planes

         19  and everything.

         20       Q.   So did you go home on the 20th, in the

         21  evening?

         22       A.   Yes.

         23       Q.   Who did you find there?

         24       A.   I found my wife's family there.  That is to

         25  say, Mira Kupreskic, Zoran's wife, with three children;

Page 8683

          1  and Ljuba Kupreskic with two children; and also my

          2  mother-in-law, that is to say, my wife's mother.

          3       Q.   Why were they at your place then?

          4       A.   There was a danger.  They were in the upper

          5  part of Ahmici or, rather, Pirici, and no one knew

          6  exactly what was going on, at least they didn't know,

          7  the civilians, and they didn't want the gun from Hrasno

          8  to hit them or a bullet or something.  So then they

          9  fled to my house because there was no shooting up

         10  there, no.  It was quite peaceful and quiet.

         11       Q.   How long did they stay at your place?

         12       A.   Four or five days, because I went out to the

         13  position again, and then I'd just come back home and

         14  get some rest.  Four or five days, I think.

         15       Q.   Do you know why they stayed that long?

         16  Because you said that on the next day or, rather, that

         17  day, in the afternoon, there was no more shooting.

         18       A.   Yes, because the Muslim part didn't go back

         19  immediately either.  People were afraid.  They didn't

         20  know whether that would be it, whether it was just this

         21  first day or whether this would continue.  So they

         22  simply felt safer.  They wanted to be safe.

         23       Q.   Do you know when the Muslims returned, and

         24  did the Muslims from your part of the village flee?

         25       A.   You mean during that conflict?

Page 8684

          1       Q.   Yes.  The first conflict.

          2       A.   No, no, no.  They stayed in the village all

          3  the time.  They were not threatened in any way.  We did

          4  not threaten them in any way so they stayed throughout,

          5  although, they were probably afraid, just like we

          6  were.

          7       Q.   Do you know whether the Muslims from the rest

          8  of Santici, Pirici, Ahmici escaped?

          9       A.   I didn't understand what you said.

         10       Q.   Do you know whether the Muslims from the rest

         11  of the village and from the rest of Ahmici, Santici,

         12  Pirici, whether they had fled too?

         13       A.   Well, yes.  That first day everybody fled.

         14  That I know, naturally.  Then after a few days, the

         15  older people started returning, and they said, "Well,

         16  we have nothing to do with this," and they returned to

         17  the village.  The younger ones started coming back a

         18  bit later, when things were completely peaceful.

         19       Q.   Why do you think that the younger people came

         20  back later? Did you see that?  Did you hear that?

         21       A.   Well, I heard that and I saw it.  I think

         22  they took part in the blockade of this part, and they

         23  were probably afraid.  I mean, they were afraid that

         24  something might happen to them.

         25       Q.   Tell me, do you know whether some meetings

Page 8685

          1  were held in the village after this first conflict?

          2       A.   Yes.  Yes, meetings were held in the school

          3  in Ahmici.

          4       Q.   Did you take part in this?

          5       A.   No, but my father did, so I'm aware of that.

          6  I've received information about that.

          7       Q.   What was the point of these meetings?

          8       A.   The point of these meetings was to reduce the

          9  tensions that were there on the eve of the 20th and on

         10  the 20th, and mostly it was elderly people.  It was at

         11  their initiative, but there was also younger people who

         12  took part in it.

         13       Q.   Tell us, in your part of the village, were

         14  there any guards, village guards?

         15       A.   Well, they were not organised but they

         16  existed, again at people's own initiative, because in

         17  my village, quite a number of us were in the

         18  anti-aircraft defence.  Fifty per cent of them were

         19  able-bodied men, and then there were elderly mean of 50

         20  or 60 years of age, and they simply, because we were

         21  away, they organised it.  Well, not guards but patrols,

         22  because if you are a guard you stand in one place and a

         23  patrol goes around.

         24       Q.   Did you make part of the village guards?

         25       A.   No.

Page 8686

          1       Q.   Why not?

          2       A.   Because I was assigned with the anti-aircraft

          3  defence, so I was on the positions all day, and the

          4  rest of it I used to have some rest, with the help of

          5  my family.

          6       Q.   So people who were assigned to some military

          7  duty did not go on guarding duty; is that it?

          8       A.   Quite so.

          9       Q.   Tell us, where did you go?  Where did you

         10  relocate after the conflict of the 20th of October,

         11  '92, and after the Croats and Muslims in the

         12  anti-aircraft defence separated?

         13       A.   We stayed for another three days at that

         14  position and then we relocated to Gornja Rovna.  It's

         15  next to Hrasno.

         16       Q.   Yes, I think you could indicate its location

         17  to us.  Where is Gornja Rovna?

         18       A.   Gornja Rovna is here, I think (indicating).

         19       Q.   How long did you stay there?

         20       A.   Oh, until late November.  It could have been

         21  the 27th or the 28th.  There we also had shifts,

         22  three-day-shifts.  For the first two days we were there

         23  all the time because, of course, the tension was high,

         24  and then we realised that nothing was happening, and

         25  then we took three-day-shifts.

Page 8687

          1       Q.   And after that position?

          2       A.   After that position, with my gun I went to a

          3  locality Prahulje.

          4       Q.   Would you please indicate where Prahulje is?

          5       A.   No, it's not here.  No, because it is in the

          6  municipality of Travnik.  So it is four kilometres away

          7  from Travnik.  That is at a distance of some 14

          8  kilometres from us.

          9       Q.   Was it -- perhaps you --

         10       A.   Bila.

         11       Q.   Is Bila here, Nova Bila?

         12       A.   Bila you're asking?  (Indicating)

         13       Q.   Right.  So Prahulje is even further down?

         14       A.   Yes.  Further down towards Travnik.

         15       Q.   Will you please take your seat again?  It was

         16  in the municipality of Novi Travnik; is that so?

         17       A.   Travnik, yes.

         18       Q.   Then you made part of what units?

         19       A.   Well, that is where we were relocated,

         20  because we then acted within the Novi Travnik Brigade,

         21  Petar Tomasevic or Stjepan Tomasevic.  I can't remember

         22  exactly what it was called.  Stjepan Tomasevic.  We did

         23  not act, we simply deployed there.

         24       Q.   What was your function there, that is, at

         25  Prahulje?  What did you do there?

Page 8688

          1       A.   We guarded the howitzer, 122 millimetres,

          2  because on Vlasic, on the hill, we could often see

          3  helicopters.  The howitzer, without that gun, we would

          4  be quite unprotected.  This AAD gun was supposed to

          5  protect the area so that it would not be shelled.

          6       Q.   So you were there to provide defence against

          7  Serbs?

          8       A.   Quite so, yes, because in the municipality of

          9  Travnik, there was no sign of a mounting tension or

         10  anything.

         11       Q.   Then the howitzer was then at a position held

         12  by the Croat army, facing the Serbs; is that so?

         13       A.   It is.

         14       Q.   Who else was there to protect that gun?

         15       A.   Mirko Safradin, Goran Vuleta were on my

         16  shift, Marko Grgic.  So the four of us.

         17       Q.   Tell us, were you there on the 16th of April,

         18  '93 when the war in the Lasva Valley broke out?

         19       A.   Yes, indeed.  I was right there at that

         20  position at Prahulje.

         21       Q.   Do you have any information as to what was

         22  going on in a different part of the Vitez

         23  municipality?  Did you have any communication with

         24  Vitez?

         25       A.   We had communication with Novi Travnik but,

Page 8689

          1  of course, we had the radio station and around to --

          2  well, we could, of course, communicate with Vitez at a

          3  different frequency, of course.  I tried to get some

          4  information, and I learned that in Ahmici, the village

          5  of Ahmici, there was shooting and then the village was

          6  on fire, but they still didn't know what was going on.

          7  I was surprised, and I tried to establish the

          8  connection once again, but then I could not because the

          9  communication was disrupted, was cut off, and for the

         10  next two days I could establish no communication until

         11  I was relocated to yet another position.

         12       Q.   So you could not get the radio -- you could

         13  not communicate by radio; is that so?

         14       A.   Yes.  Yes, by radio.

         15       Q.   All right.  So you could not communicate with

         16  Vitez by radio but you could with Travnik?

         17       A.   Yes, yes.  Yes, we could.

         18       Q.   But did they have any information?

         19       A.   No.  No, they did not have any information as

         20  to what.

         21       Q.   Did you have any other contact with your home

         22  or anything?  Did you know what was going on in Ahmici?

         23       A.   Yes.  That evening I tried to get home.  I

         24  tried to communicate with my home.  I called my wife,

         25  and she told me that there was shooting, the village

Page 8690

          1  was on fire, but they didn't know what was going on,

          2  indeed, either, and they moved to a shelter that

          3  night.

          4       Q.   What night do you mean that they went to a

          5  shelter?

          6       A.   The first night.

          7       Q.   That was what, the day of the conflict?

          8       A.   Yes.  The night, the 16th.  In the evening of

          9  the 16th.

         10       Q.   Tell us, in your part of the village you say

         11  that you had Muslim neighbours there.  Was any one of

         12  those Muslims killed?

         13       A.   In my part?  No.  Of those five houses, well,

         14  one of them -- one from those five houses was in

         15  Germany with his wife, but the others are all alive and

         16  they were even all with us.  I mean, not with us, but

         17  with the wife in the basement.  That is what she told

         18  me when I came home.

         19       Q.   So Muslims from your part of the village were

         20  hiding in the basement with the Croats?

         21       A.   Yes, the first night, because they were also

         22  at a loss what was happening.  In that part there was

         23  no shooting.  They saw that that is where they sought

         24  refuge.  They knew that it was -- that Ahmici -- I'm

         25  not too sure, there because they were local people,

Page 8691

          1  so -- but they came there.

          2       Q.   Did the Croats capture them after that?

          3       A.   No.  Instead, they took them under custody --

          4  I mean, transferred them from Sivrino Selo.

          5       Q.   You mean the army or did the neighbours help

          6  them to get out?

          7       A.   Both the neighbours and a part of the army,

          8  because they were mostly elderly people.  Of course,

          9  elderly people are always more frightened.  They were

         10  also our army, our men who then transferred them, took

         11  them to the other side -- to their side, the Muslim

         12  one.  There is a road.

         13       Q.   That was when?

         14       A.   It was on the 17th, in the morning of the

         15  17th.

         16       Q.   Sivrino Selo is a Muslim village?

         17       A.   Yes, it is a purely Muslim village.  Except

         18  there is a part -- it is not called Sivrino Selo, even

         19  though it was made part of it, and that was -- that had

         20  Croat inhabitants and it is a locality called

         21  Kremenjace.

         22       Q.   Sivrino Selo is very near Santici, is that

         23  so, the part of Santici that you live in?

         24       A.   Correct.  It is so near that I can recognise

         25  a man.  I can recognise a man in Sivrino village it's

Page 8692

          1  so close.  It's 300 metres from the end of my village

          2  to theirs.

          3       Q.   So will you please, on this big aerial

          4  photograph, indicate where Sivrino Selo is in relation

          5  to Santici?

          6       A.   This is the locality of Kremenjace, this part

          7  here, and this here is Sivrino Selo (indicating).

          8       Q.   Where is this lower part of Santici where

          9  your house is?

         10       A.   (indicating)

         11       Q.   Right.  In view of the small distance, do you

         12  know, or perhaps did your wife tell you if there were

         13  any combat actions taken by Croats against Sivrino Selo

         14  on the 16th?

         15       A.   On the 16th, no.  There was more shooting

         16  there -- well, Ahmici is near, but from Sivrino Selo in

         17  the direction of Santici, there was no action on the

         18  first day, that is, on the 16th.

         19       Q.   All right.  Thank you.  You may take your

         20  seat again.

         21            Will you tell us, please, if you know Mirjan

         22  Santic?

         23       A.   I do.

         24       Q.   Who was Mirjan Santic?

         25       A.   Oh, well, he was a relative of mine, and he

Page 8693

          1  was with me on the anti-aircraft defence, but on

          2  another shift.  He perished towards the end of January

          3  or early February -- he moved from -- in the end of

          4  January or beginning of February, and then he went to

          5  the military police.

          6       Q.   His house in Santici was near your house?

          7       A.   Yes, some 200 metres.

          8       Q.   Do you know when he was killed and where?

          9       A.   On the 16th of April, '93, in Ahmici.

         10       Q.   Are you positive?

         11       A.   100 per cent.

         12       Q.   As a member of what unit?

         13       A.   As a member of the military police.

         14       Q.   Do you know Slavko Sakic?

         15       A.   I do.  Yes.  And I know that he was also on

         16  the anti-aircraft defence.

         17       Q.   Do you know where he was on the 16th of

         18  April?

         19       A.   I don't know that exactly, because I was at

         20  Pramulje, so that I really have no idea where they

         21  were.  I didn't even know where my wife and children

         22  were, let alone others.

         23       Q.   Tell us, do you know who the Jokers were?

         24       A.   Yes, this was military police, a part of the

         25  military police.

Page 8694

          1       Q.   Do you know where they were accommodated?

          2       A.   Yes, they were near Nadioci, at the Bungalow,

          3  that is what it was called, a kind of a motel.

          4       Q.   Do you know what kind of uniforms they had?

          5  Did you ever see them?

          6       A.   Yes, of course I saw them.  They had black

          7  uniforms.

          8       Q.   Tell us, did you ever learn who took part in

          9  the conflict in Ahmici?

         10       A.   Well, I know for certain that it was the

         11  military police, because Mirjan was a relative of mine

         12  and also a colleague, and I also heard the Jokers

         13  participated in it, too.  I could not see that,

         14  because ...

         15       Q.   So tell us, you remained at your position at

         16  Pramulje, or did you move?

         17       A.   I stayed at Pramulje because Mirko arrived on

         18  the 17th.

         19       Q.   Mirko who?

         20       A.   Mirko Safradin, because he was free at the

         21  time, he was on my shift -- no, I mean there were four

         22  of us, and since it was quiet, we would always leave

         23  one of us to have a rest.  So he was to come to replace

         24  me on the 16th, but of course he could not.  So we

         25  stayed there, Goran Vuleta and I were there alone on

Page 8695

          1  the 16th, and on the 17th, Mirko came to me in the

          2  morning or so, and we were there until the morning of

          3  the 18th.

          4       Q.   Where did you go on the 18th?

          5       A.   On the 18th, the orders came from the Novi

          6  Travnik Brigade to relocate to Pokrajcici, and that is

          7  a locality in the Travnik municipality above Zabilje.

          8  That is a hill, an elevation.

          9       Q.   Can you see that on this map?

         10       A.   Yes, you can see Zabilje here, right at the

         11  end.  Should I stand up?

         12            Here's the village of Zabilje (indicating).

         13       Q.   And where is this hill?

         14       A.   The hill is over here.  So we're here, across

         15  from this (indicating).  This is where the hill is, and

         16  this is the place where we were positioned.  A bit

         17  lower than this, actually, but here (indicating).

         18       Q.   What municipality is that?

         19       A.   That is the municipality of Travnik.

         20       Q.   Why were you transferred -- please take a

         21  seat; thank you.

         22            Why were you transferred to that position on

         23  the 18th?

         24       A.   Well, on the 17th of the evening, this

         25  position of Brdo, this hill, fell.  That's where our

Page 8696

          1  people were, the anti-aircraft people.  They had the

          2  Strelas, and they were attacked on the 17th, in the

          3  evening, and this position was taken, and then our

          4  people withdrew to the village of Zabilje, and they

          5  established a line there, and they tried to recapture

          6  Brdo, because it's very important, and the entire

          7  village was immediately threatened.  So that is why we

          8  were sent there as support.

          9       Q.   So on the 17th, Brdo was taken by the BH

         10  army; is that correct?

         11       A.   Yes.  Yes, the 17th, in the evening, during

         12  the night.

         13       Q.   Then you were transferred there, and what did

         14  you do?  Was there shooting there, around Zabilje, on

         15  the 18th?

         16       A.   As we were being transferred -- all of this

         17  is nearby, and you can hear rifles and guns.  Yes,

         18  there was shooting, and when we arrived at the position

         19  -- that was around noon, I think -- the shooting was

         20  abating.  So we positioned ourselves, but the shooting

         21  stopped, and we did not take any action that day at

         22  all.

         23       Q.   What did you do?

         24       A.   Well, we were preparing the position.  We

         25  didn't have any accommodation, we didn't have any

Page 8697

          1  food.  All of this was done in haste.  So I went to the

          2  village, and night had already started to fall, because

          3  it takes time to prepare a position.  So this was dusk,

          4  when we went to see where we could spend the night and

          5  where we could eat.

          6       Q.   So where did you go to?

          7       A.   We went to the village, to Jaka Bilic.  I

          8  didn't know her name at the time.  This woman invited

          9  us to spend the night at her place, and she said, "If

         10  you didn't have any place to sleep, you could stay

         11  here," she said.  Mirko Safradin, Goran Vuleta, and I

         12  stopped there, and we had dinner.  We had dinner around

         13  7.00, 6.30 or 7.00.  Then we had a cup of coffee,

         14  naturally, and we watched the news on television.  We

         15  wanted to hear information as to what was going on.

         16            I wish to note once again that I had lost all

         17  contact with my family.  I didn't know where my wife

         18  was and where my children were during those three days,

         19  that is to say, from the 16th in the evening until the

         20  18th, I didn't know a thing, and all sorts of stories

         21  were going about, that people had fled to Busovaca, and

         22  then they said "No, now they're at home," and "Now

         23  they're in Kiseljak."  So this information was

         24  harrowing, and I was wondering whether I could get any

         25  proper information on the TV news.

Page 8698

          1       Q.   So you were very interested in what you could

          2  hear concerning all the news from that area?

          3       A.   Oh, yes, everything.

          4       Q.   All right.  Do you recall which TV news you

          5  watched that night?

          6       A.   In the evening, yes, I watched the Bosnian

          7  news, TV Sarajevo.

          8       Q.   All right, TV Sarajevo.  In this municipality

          9  of Travnik, because you were in the municipality of

         10  Travnik at the time, and this TV news program from

         11  Sarajevo was broadcast --

         12       A.   Oh, yes, yes.  There were no conflicts, and

         13  there was electricity, so we watched those TV news

         14  during the remaining few days while we were there.

         15       Q.   All right.  Could you tell me what you saw in

         16  this TV news?  What was in the headlines that day?

         17       A.   The village of Ahmici was in the headlines,

         18  the conflict in Ahmici.  It is probably CNN and other

         19  foreign TV news programs and crews that had filmed

         20  this, because I don't think Bosnian TV could have done

         21  it at the time.

         22       Q.   What was shown on TV?  What did you see from

         23  Ahmici?

         24       A.   Well, at first we saw houses on fire, smoke,

         25  houses on fire.  All this was -- this was taken from

Page 8699

          1  afar; it wasn't really close up.  Then there were a few

          2  corpses down by this place called Sangaj.  I recognised

          3  it because I'm from there.

          4       Q.   You mean by the cafe of Sangaj?

          5       A.   Yes, yes, the parking lot by the cafe.

          6       Q.   That's on the road by the cemetery?

          7       A.   Yes.

          8       Q.   Right.

          9       A.   Then there was some footage from the Zenica

         10  hospital.  I followed all the news very carefully to

         11  see what would happen, and I watched this very

         12  carefully to see whether I could recognise someone,

         13  because I knew a lot of Muslims from Ahmici, and

         14  perhaps I could hear some information as to what

         15  happened to Ahmici and Santici.

         16            Then I saw a man.  I didn't even know who he

         17  was.  He introduced himself.  He said his name was

         18  [redacted].  I knew a [redacted] who lived at the

         19  bottom of the village, but I saw it wasn't that [redacted]

         20  [redacted], so I was wondering what he would say and what

         21  had happened to him and what happened to the rest and

         22  what happened to Zoran and Mica and my mother-in-law

         23  and their mother and my father-in-law.  All of this is

         24  nearby.  I wanted to know what had happened to all of

         25  them, whether they were alive.

Page 8700

          1       Q.   What did you see?  What did this man look

          2  like?

          3       A.   This man had his hands and arms burned all

          4  the way up to the elbows.  He was sort of sitting in

          5  bed, half reclining, half sitting.  His hair was

          6  dishevelled.  His face was a bit burned, too, and then

          7  he talked about what had happened.

          8       Q.   What did he say?  What had happened?

          9       A.   He said that soldiers burst into the village

         10  and that they torched the village and that two soldiers

         11  barged into his house and that they were masked -- or

         12  rather that they were painted, they had paint on their

         13  faces, and that they killed his son, his

         14  daughter-in-law, and a three-month-old child.

         15       Q.   Tell me, when he said all of that, did the

         16  reporter ask him any questions?

         17       A.   Yes, yes.  The reporter insisted, said, "Did

         18  you know who did this?"  And he said, "No, no, I

         19  couldn't recognise anyone."  I was also very interested

         20  in hearing this.  So he was asked twice, and I was also

         21  interested in hearing whether he would say who did

         22  this, but persistently he kept saying then that he

         23  didn't know who did it.

         24       Q.   Did he say why he did not recognise these

         25  men?  How come he did not recognise them?  Did he give

Page 8701

          1  a reason?

          2       A.   Yes, yes, he gave a reason.  He said that

          3  they were masked, in the sense of their faces being

          4  painted, and naturally it was impossible for him to

          5  recognise them.  He just said that they had black

          6  clothing.  He didn't name anyone in that report.

          7       Q.   All right.  You said that you didn't know who

          8  this [redacted] was.  When did you find out which

          9  [redacted] this was?

         10       A.   I found out only in 1997.  People tried to

         11  explain this to me, what this [redacted] looked like,

         12  I mean, after all of that, but I could not remember who

         13  he was.  My wife even said, "Oh, come on, how come you

         14  can't remember?  He was a driver in Impregnacija."  I

         15  simply could not remember.  I kept thinking of this

         16  other [redacted]  who lived in the lower part of the

         17  village.

         18            It's only in 1997, when this [redacted]

         19  [redacted], then my wife said [redacted]

         20  was on television.  She watches television on Mondays,

         21  and TV Travnik also shows this series, it's called The

         22  Hague Diary, and they probably get footage only that

         23  they can find, you see.  So she told me that she saw

         24  [redacted].  She said, "Why don't you watch this on

         25  Thursday, too, and perhaps you'll recognise him, you'll

Page 8702

          1  know who this [redacted] is."

          2       Q.   So you were supposed to see a replay of the

          3  show; right?

          4       A.   Yes, yes, a replay.  I watched this replay on

          5  Thursday, and as I watched him on television, I said

          6  "Well, that was the man who was in the hospital that

          7  time, this same [redacted]."

          8            She said, "Is that that [redacted]?"  And I

          9  said "Yes, yes, that's the one I saw who was at the

         10  Zenica hospital at the time."  But even before that, he

         11  had accused Zoran and Mirjan Kupreskic.  I heard about

         12  that on Radio Zenica, and I read about it in the

         13  papers, too, and I said, "I know, 100 per cent sure,

         14  I'm 100 per cent sure that in that TV news programme,

         15  he had said that he had not recognised anyone."

         16            Then, when I realised that it was the same

         17  person, then I realised that I would come here as a

         18  witness too.

         19       Q.   All right.  The statement that we gave to the

         20  Court, translated, is it true what is said here, that

         21  you gave it to us on the 27th of February, 1998?

         22       A.   Yes.

         23       Q.   Did you see that cassette before that?  So

         24  what is contained here in this statement, is it only

         25  your recollection?

Page 8703

          1       A.   Yes.  It is only my recollection.  I tried to

          2  find this cassette on my own, because I thought that it

          3  had to be recorded somewhere.  No, no, all the way up

          4  to Germany.  We simply could not find it.  So this is

          5  my recollection only; how I remember this, what he

          6  looked like, what he said.  Whether I memorised every

          7  little word he said, I don't know.  I mean, maybe he

          8  said something else too.  But what I know for sure,

          9  100 per cent, is that he said that he did not recognise

         10  anyone.  I was really interested in what was going on

         11  at the time.

         12       Q.   All right.  We could not find that cassette,

         13  but then after filing your statement, we received a

         14  cassette from the Prosecutor.

         15            MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:  Could we now see P157,

         16  Prosecutor's Exhibit 157.

         17       Q.   Could you say what is missing from this

         18  statement?  Is that everything that you heard on that

         19  day?

         20                 (Videotape played)

         21            THE INTERPRETER (Voiceover):  On the 16th of

         22  April, sometime in the morning, we were asleep.  The

         23  child was crying.  I had a grandson who was three

         24  months old, three months and three days on this day.

         25            My son turned on the light, and --

Page 8704

          1            THE INTERPRETER:  Part of it is inaudible.

          2            THE INTERPRETER (Voiceover):  -- and I was

          3  asleep over there.  In the meantime, these men from

          4  HOS -- no, the HVO soldiers, they came, they barged

          5  through the door, they broke the door open, and they

          6  fired a burst of gunfire at the veranda.  They got into

          7  the room.  The light was on.

          8            They saw my son, he was on his feet, and they

          9  killed him straight away.  I was peeking through the

         10  door that I only kept ajar.  Then they shot bursts of

         11  gunfire into my daughter-in-law and my other grandson.

         12  However, the child that was in the cradle made some

         13  noise, and then this man came back and shot a burst of

         14  gunfire into the baby who was in the cradle, that was

         15  three months and three days old.

         16            They got out.  They left.  They immediately

         17  created two fires in the kitchen downstairs.  The

         18  flames spread very quickly, and I tried to get the

         19  children into this room where I was, so that I could

         20  localise it as much as possible.  These children had

         21  been killed, but I didn't want them to burn, too.

         22            However, I didn't manage to do a thing.  The

         23  flames were very quick.  I was sitting in this room,

         24  and the outside window was open, and this other room

         25  where the children were asleep, there the door and the

Page 8705

          1  window had burned down already.

          2            MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:

          3       Q.   Mr. Rajic, you've seen the recording that we

          4  have.  Is anything missing there?  Was this the end?

          5       A.   No, no, no, the end is missing.  This last

          6  statement that he made, when the reporter asked him --

          7  I can't remember whether it was man or a woman

          8  reporter -- the reporter said, "Did you recognise these

          9  people?  Try to remember."  And he said, "No, I

         10  couldn't, because they were masked."  That's exactly

         11  what he said.  That part has been cut off from this

         12  cassette.

         13       Q.   Would that have been the logical question to

         14  ask, too?

         15       A.   In my opinion, quite logical.  I mean, if

         16  they are seeking information, if you know what

         17  happened, let's see who did it.  It's logical for a

         18  journalist to ask that kind of question, and that's why

         19  I know that the journalist had put this question, and I

         20  was expecting him to name someone, but he didn't name

         21  anyone.  He said just what I told you here; "I didn't

         22  recognise them because they were masked.  They had

         23  paint on their faces."

         24       Q.   Please tell us, at that time in Zenica on the

         25  17th and 18th, were there any war operations?  Was

Page 8706

          1  there any fighting in Zenica?

          2       A.   In Zenica?

          3       Q.   Yes, in Zenica.

          4       A.   I couldn't tell because I was not up there.

          5       Q.   Under whose control was Zenica at the time?

          6       A.   Under Muslim control.

          7       Q.   And that's the way things remained; right?

          8       A.   Yes, throughout.

          9       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Rajic.

         10            MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:  Mr. President, I have

         11  concluded and it is time for the break now; isn't it?

         12            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes.  I assume there will be

         13  no cross-examination by other Defence counsel, so we'll

         14  take a break and then we'll move to the Prosecution.

         15                 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

         16                 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

         17            JUDGE CASSESE:  Mr. Terrier, you have the

         18  floor.

         19            MR. TERRIER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

         20                 Cross-examined by Mr. Terrier:

         21       Q.   Good morning, Mr. Rajic.  I'm Franck Terrier,

         22  one of the Prosecutors, and I intend to ask a couple of

         23  questions following the examination-in-chief.

         24            You said that there is a -- you're a relative

         25  with Mirjan and Zoran Kupreskic, that somehow they are

Page 8707

          1  your brothers-in-law.  Is that so?

          2       A.   No.  I'm their brother-in-law.

          3       Q.   We got that.  Is there an addition to this

          4  link, the family link?  Did you also have friendship

          5  links with them?  Were you befriended with them?

          6       A.   Yes.  We knew one another.

          7       Q.   Did it happen that you and your wife paid

          8  regular visits to them?  I'm talking about 1992 and

          9  1993.

         10       A.   Yes, whenever we could.  Yes.  In '92, yes.

         11  In '93 not so often.

         12       Q.   Did you know their neighbours in Ahmici?

         13       A.   You mean Muslims.  Well, I did know some of

         14  them, yes.

         15       Q.   -- make no difference between Muslims and

         16  Croats, I'm just asking you whether you knew their

         17  neighbours.

         18       A.   Yes, I did, particularly younger people,

         19  those of my age, more or less.  I knew less of those

         20  who were older.

         21       Q.   Would you be able to name some of the

         22  neighbours, some of Mirjan's and Zoran's neighbours at

         23  the time?

         24       A.   Yes.  I knew Sukrija Ahmic, [redacted], down

         25  there, the one by the road.  Nermin Ahmic, likewise.

Page 8708

          1  He's more or less my age.   Enisa Ahmic, and others.

          2  I can't recall their names right now.

          3       Q.   You no longer remember them.  I see.  Let us,

          4  for a while, speak of the responsibilities that were

          5  yours in terms of anti-aircraft defence.  If I remember

          6  well, you said that you were mobilised in April 1992 in

          7  order to ensure the anti-aircraft protection of

          8  Impregnacija, the Impregnacija buildings; is that so?

          9       A.   Yes, it is.

         10       Q.   What were your own responsibilities in that

         11  field?

         12       A.   I was the leader, the commander, for one gun.

         13       Q.   Could you describe the type, the model, the

         14  calibre?  Yes, the type of cannon it was.

         15       A.   Yes, it is Bufors 40-millimetre calibre.

         16       Q.   So this 40-millimetre calibre was manned by

         17  how many people?

         18       A.   According to regulation, there should be five

         19  and the driver.  That is the sixth one.

         20       Q.   So it was a self-propelled cannon?  It was

         21  mounted on a vehicle; is that so?

         22       A.   No, it had wheels but then it was attached to

         23  a vehicle.

         24       Q.   Would you be able to remind us of the time

         25  when you left that position, that Impregnacija

Page 8709

          1  position, together with a gun?

          2       A.   Yes.  It was on the 18th -- no, on the 23rd

          3  of October.

          4       Q.   So on the 23rd of October.  To which position

          5  did you then go?

          6       A.   I went to Gornja Rovna.

          7       Q.   What is the military tactical reason for that

          8  move?

          9       A.   Well, it was still the anti-aircraft defence,

         10  because the tension of the first conflict has come down

         11  and yet there was a danger that the conflict might

         12  spread or, rather, if it broke out again that then this

         13  gun could be destroyed from Sivrino Selo, and that was

         14  the main reason.

         15       Q.   When did you move to yet another position?

         16  When did you do that?

         17       A.   Well, that was towards the end of November.

         18  Whether it was the 27th or 28th, somewhere there, of

         19  1992.

         20       Q.   In other words, late November 1992.  You

         21  probably said so earlier on.  I'm sorry for that.  But

         22  would you mind reminding us of the position you were

         23  then supposed to have and take?

         24       A.   You mean, where I was relocated?

         25       Q.   That's right.  Well, with the gun.

Page 8710

          1       A.   Yes.  We were relocated from Gornja Rovna to

          2  Prahulje municipality of Travnik.  Old Travnik, I

          3  think, it was.

          4       Q.   Well, let us speak about that position.  What

          5  was your mission?  What was your task?  What were the

          6  instructions you had received?

          7       A.   I was put under the command of Novi Travnik.

          8  That is a different regiment.  We were to protect the

          9  122-millimetre howitzer from helicopters or aircraft as

         10  rockets could still be launched from Vlasicici or --

         11       Q.   So your task was to ensure protection of the

         12  122 howitzer ; is that so?

         13       A.   Yes.  Correct.

         14       Q.   Witness, am I wrong in saying that at the

         15  time, on the Serbian side -- on the Bosnian Serb side,

         16  there is no longer any aircraft power, be it

         17  helicopters, combat aircraft, or there is no longer any

         18  threat coming from the Serbs at that time; is that so?

         19       A.   That is not true.  There was the no-fly

         20  orders for Serb aircraft, but Vlasic -- around Vlasic

         21  plateau there were helicopters.  Aircraft were not

         22  allowed to, but helicopters transporting something, I

         23  don't know, and there could also be fighter craft.

         24       Q.   Am I then again wrong in saying that the

         25  anti-aircraft guns, at the time, were used not to

Page 8711

          1  defend that air space that was empty but was aimed at

          2  ground objectives and, more specifically so, at

          3  houses?  Am I wrong in saying that the anti-aircraft

          4  gun would send a projectile which has a very large

          5  penetrating power and which could cause major damage on

          6  houses, could, for instance, torch a house?

          7       A.   The place where we were at in Prahulje was a

          8  depression next to the howitzer and it was impossible

          9  to fire at any house.  This is all purely Croat space

         10  and around there there are hills, hillocks.

         11       Q.   Let's speak about that 122-millimetre

         12  howitzer in the vicinity of which you were.  Was it

         13  used at that time?  I mean, April 1993, was it used at

         14  the time?

         15       A.   In '93, April.  No, no.  It was used in

         16  January '93 too, but it was all aimed at Vlasic

         17  plateau.

         18       Q.   Did you know that Zenica was bombed on the

         19  29th of April and that the shells, according to the

         20  investigations carried out then, seemed to come from a

         21  122 gun?

         22       A.   I was separated from the howitzer on the 18th

         23  of April and relocated to a different position.  This

         24  howitzer went somewhere.  I don't know where.  So that

         25  is possible, but I don't know anything about it.

Page 8712

          1       Q.   What is the reach of a 122 gun, in

          2  kilometres?

          3       A.   I wouldn't know exactly.  I was with the

          4  anti-aircraft defence, so I don't know about that.

          5       Q.   You don't have the slightest idea, sort of an

          6  approximate idea of the distance it can cover?

          7       A.   Well, my guess is from Prahulje it fired at

          8  Vlasic plateau.  It is 20 or 18 kilometres, so it could

          9  be that, perhaps a little more than that.

         10       Q.   I don't think you mentioned this earlier on,

         11  but you said that you left that position on the 18th of

         12  April, 1993.  Would you be in a position to give us

         13  further details on that, when, what time, on whose

         14  instructions or orders, and to go where?

         15       A.   In the morning of the 18th, we left the

         16  position at Prahulje, and the orders from Novi Travnik,

         17  because that is where the command for the anti-aircraft

         18  defence was at the time, and relocated to a locality,

         19  to a place called Pokrajcici.  That is four kilometres

         20  to the south of Prahulje.

         21       Q.   So how many kilometres away from Vitez?

         22       A.   Prahulje, Vitez, it is about 14 kilometres,

         23  thereabouts.

         24       Q.   What were your objectives at the time?

         25       A.   When I was relocated to Pokrajcici, it was

Page 8713

          1  when a hill fell.  It was a very important elevated

          2  point because the village of Zabilje was below that.

          3  My duty was to support -- that the Muslim units or the

          4  BH army does not break through to the village of

          5  Zabilje.

          6       Q.   So as I was saying previously, we are no

          7  longer talking about anti-aircraft defence.  We are

          8  mentioning now ground objectives.

          9       A.   Yes, true.  As of the 18th, yes, that is

         10  quite true, we worked -- we turned on the ground

         11  objectives.

         12       Q.   Were you a member of the HVO?

         13       A.   No.  Yes.  Well, within the HVO, but we were

         14  in the anti-aircraft defence unit.

         15       Q.   What was your military rank?

         16       A.   At that time I still had the old one, that

         17  is, the old rank, the rank of the former army, and that

         18  was Corporal.

         19       Q.   Witness, would you be so kind as to repeat

         20  the rank, for the sake of the interpreters?

         21       A.   Well, it was a Corporal in the Yugoslav

         22  army.  It was a Lance Corporal, Corporal.

         23       Q.   Did you take an oath, an oath of allegiance

         24  or faith for the HVO?

         25       A.   No.

Page 8714

          1       Q.   Did you know other HVO soldiers who they --

          2  who would have taken that oath, that allegiance oath?

          3       A.   Well, I know that some of them took it, but I

          4  don't know too.  The AAD, the anti-aircraft defence,

          5  was before that mobilised, and only afterwards the HVO

          6  units took the oath of allegiance.

          7       Q.   As far as you can remember, or as far as you

          8  know, when did HVO soldiers start taking that oath?

          9       A.   I couldn't say when.  I could not say exactly

         10  or even approximately when.  I think it would be a

         11  gross error on my part.

         12       Q.   Did you ever attend any such ceremony,

         13  oath-taking ceremonies?

         14       A.   No.

         15       Q.   Mr. Rajic, you said earlier on that on the

         16  16th of April, 1993, you heard over the radio that

         17  Ahmici was burning; is that right?

         18       A.   Over the radio station, RUP 12.

         19       Q.   Could you give us further specification as to

         20  this RUP 12?

         21       A.   Yes, RUP 12 is a radio station.  I think it's

         22  about half a metre tall and about 30 metres wide, and

         23  you can choose frequencies within a 12-to-15-kilometre

         24  range.

         25       Q.   Please enlighten me.  Are we talking about

Page 8715

          1  some military means of communication which would be

          2  reserved to military?

          3       A.   Yes, RUP 12 was of the Yugoslav army, and it

          4  belonged to us as an AAD unit.

          5       Q.   Who would be sending information?  Who did

          6  you hear talking about Ahmici in flames, in fire?

          7       A.   I asked to establish contact with my command

          8  in Novi Travnik, and I did not establish it.  Then I

          9  sought to establish contact with Vitez, and I got it,

         10  and it is from them I think I heard that Ahmici was on

         11  fire.

         12       Q.   Could you be more specific?  Who was in

         13  Vitez, who lived in Vitez and was able to give you

         14  information on what had happened?

         15       A.   Well, my command was in Vitez.

         16       Q.   Could you be more specific?  What is the name

         17  of the individual who gave you radio information at

         18  your request and who told you that Ahmici was burning?

         19       A.   Yes, I can.  Mirko Safradin.

         20       Q.   What was his position?  What was his rank?

         21       A.   He was a member of the signals unit.  I don't

         22  think he had a rank.

         23       Q.   Do you know where he had this information

         24  from?

         25       A.   I never managed to ask him.  That was all I

Page 8716

          1  heard, and then I lost contact.

          2       Q.   Could you tell us what time you had this

          3  radio contact with him?

          4       A.   Around 9.30 in the morning on the 16th.

          5       Q.   Could you be as specific as possible as to

          6  what Mirko Safradin told you on the 16th of April,

          7  1993, around 9.00 in the morning?

          8       A.   Well, the whole conversation lasted not more

          9  than 20 seconds.  I did not know what was going on.  I

         10  didn't even know that there was shooting going on,

         11  because we could not hear.  I asked him if there was

         12  anything he knew down there, and he told me, "Anto,

         13  Ahmici is on fire."  Then he started another sentence,

         14  and the line went off.

         15       Q.   Did he mention any victims?

         16       A.   No, no, he did not mention, because nothing

         17  was known yet.

         18       Q.   If there is an idea that Ahmici is on fire,

         19  does that not necessarily imply that there are victims?

         20       A.   Well, it can be, but need not be.  I mean, he

         21  did not have to know about this, anything, at the

         22  time.

         23       Q.   Let us try to be as clear as possible,

         24  Mr. Rajic.  You're telling us that in the morning of

         25  the 16th of April, the transmission service of the PZO

Page 8717

          1  in Vitez knows and tells you that Ahmici is burning?

          2            JUDGE CASSESE:  If I got it right, the

          3  witness mentioned 9.00 -- 9.30.  You keep saying 9.00,

          4  but he says 9.30.

          5            MR. TERRIER:  A little bit earlier up, he

          6  said -- you're right.  You're right.  You're right.  I

          7  apologise for this.  I made the mistake.

          8       Q.   I'm going to put the question to you again,

          9  Mr. Rajic, in a more precise way.  You tell us that

         10  around 9.30 in the morning on the 16th of April, 1993,

         11  the transmission services of PZO in Vitez knew that

         12  Ahmici was on fire?

         13       A.  Yes, yes.

         14       Q.   You said previously that when you heard this,

         15  you tried to establish telephone contact with your

         16  wife, with your family.  Is that so?

         17       A.   Correct, but that was right before the dusk

         18  fell, because the radio connection was already dead.

         19       Q.   Well, did the telephone keep working?  Could

         20  you have proper telephone contact with Ahmici during

         21  all those days?

         22       A.   With Ahmici, no -- I mean with Santici.

         23       Q.   Santici.  I see.

         24       A.   That evening, that conversation with my wife,

         25  and that evening, telephones also went dead.

Page 8718

          1       Q.   You told us that on the 18th of April, by

          2  then you had taken position at Zabilje, and you watched

          3  television.  Could you tell us what time you watched

          4  television, or for which period of time, starting when

          5  and finishing when?

          6       A.   19.00, 19.30, that is when the prime time

          7  news of the Bosnian -- or rather, to be more exact,

          8  Sarajevo television, and the news went on until 20.00.

          9  Of course, it lasted longer because of all those

         10  reports.

         11       Q.   Are you sure that you watched TV Sarajevo,

         12  Mr. Rajic?

         13       A.   Yes.  Sarajevo television.  It is their news

         14  programme, but that programme included footage of

         15  various foreign televisions, CNN and other companies.

         16  I wouldn't know which ones.  That is, I don't know what

         17  they are called.

         18       Q.   Do you remember seeing the logo of TV

         19  Sarajevo?

         20       A.   That was the only television which could work

         21  at that time.  At that time, only BH TV was possible.

         22       Q.   In respect of the Ahmici event as reported in

         23  the evening of the 18th of April by that TV station, do

         24  you remember whether other people than [redacted] were

         25  asked to express their views?

Page 8719

          1       A.   Well, yes, there were other people who were

          2  interviewed, but I don't know the names of these

          3  persons.  I don't know [redacted]  either, at that time, I

          4  didn't.

          5       Q.   Could you confirm to us -- you have actually

          6  already done so just now -- but that at the time you

          7  didn't know at all who [redacted] was, or at least the

          8  one we have in mind?

          9       A.   Yes, yes, I didn't know him at all.  I knew

         10  the name, but I didn't know the man, that man.

         11       Q.   Could you tell us who else expressed

         12  themselves on the television on that TV channel about

         13  the events in Ahmici?

         14       A.   You mean persons from Ahmici, or generally

         15  speaking?

         16       Q.   The people in Ahmici, but you seem to

         17  remember that very exactly, very vividly.  You seem to

         18  remember what [redacted] said very clearly, what he

         19  said on the 18th of April, 1993, on TV Sarajevo.  I'm

         20  asking you, and I think you are in a position to tell

         21  us, who else spoke about the events on that same TV

         22  channel?

         23       A.   There were other persons, but I don't know

         24  them, as I told you.  A woman spoke, but I don't know

         25  who she was.  An elderly woman.

Page 8720

          1       Q.   Do you recollect what that elderly woman said

          2  then?

          3       A.   Similar to [redacted], that the village was on

          4  fire.  That was the first statement she made.  And then

          5  [redacted]  spoke a bit more, because she was crying.

          6       Q.   Do you have any recollection of other people

          7  yet?

          8       A.   From Ahmici?  No.  No.  No, I can't

          9  remember.  How could I remember everything now?

         10       Q.   To be quite clear, apart from what [redacted]

         11  [redacted]  said, you remember an elderly woman who was

         12  crying and saying that Ahmici was on fire, and that is

         13  all?  Is that so?

         14       A.   That's all, because [redacted]  spoke the most, so

         15  that is how I remember his statement the best.

         16       Q.   So you have a very vivid recollection of him,

         17  although you didn't know him, whilst you have only a

         18  very dim memory as to the other people who might have

         19  spoken on that programme; am I reflecting your words or

         20  thoughts correctly in saying so?

         21       A.   Well, yes, you have reflected it well.  But

         22  [redacted] spoke at length, and this woman was crying.  She

         23  hardly finished her sentence properly.

         24       Q.   At any rate, she didn't say anything that

         25  would have struck you in any way?  Mr. Rajic, when did

Page 8721

          1  you see that programme again, that cassette again?

          2       A.   You mean the recording from the Zenica

          3  hospital?  On video?  No, I never saw that on video.

          4       Q.   You mean that you never watched it again, is

          5  that so, until today?

          6       A.   Today I did, yes, but never before.

          7       Q.   Are you 100 per cent sure that that TV

          8  programme was broadcast on the 18th?

          9       A.   I think it was the 18th.  99 per cent, I'm

         10  sure that it was the 18th.  Possibly it was the 19th,

         11  but I think it was the 18th.  Because it was the same

         12  night when we arrived there at Pokrajcici.

         13       Q.   What day of the week was it?

         14       A.   I can't say now.  I know that the 16th was a

         15  Friday, the 17th was Saturday.  Sunday?  Sunday?  I'm

         16  sure you'll be able to do your sums.

         17       Q.   According to you, Mr. Rajic, since [redacted]

         18  [redacted] was admitted into hospital at 5.00 on the 16th of

         19  April, what was his physical and mental condition the

         20  next day?

         21       A.   Well, judging by the looks of him, he was

         22  psychologically able to give an interview.

         23            MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:  Mr. President, I think

         24  that the Prosecutor is really crossing the line now,

         25  because he is asking the witness to draw certain

Page 8722

          1  conclusions about certain facts that he has no idea

          2  of.  He is not in a position to say what kind of a

          3  condition a person may be a day after he was hurt, so I

          4  think the Prosecutor is not entitled to ask that kind

          5  of a question of this witness.

          6            MR. TERRIER:  I admit that Mr. Rajic is not

          7  in a good position to answer that question, but the

          8  reason why I was asking it is that he said before that

          9  if he knew who it was who killed his family, he should

         10  have told everybody viewing the programme, and that's

         11  in view of that piece of information, which I thought

         12  was very bold, given the state of knowledge of

         13  Mr. Rajic.  That's why I asked the question.

         14            JUDGE CASSESE:  I see.  Thank you.

         15            MR. TERRIER:

         16       Q.   One last question, Mr. Rajic.  On the 18th of

         17  April -- I'm talking about daytime on the 18th of

         18  April -- the conflict as it was named between the army

         19  of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the HVO started?

         20       A.   On the 18th?

         21       Q.   Yes.

         22       A.   The conflict started on the 16th -- well,

         23  yes, yes, on the 18th.  That's right.

         24       Q.   It is under way, then, the 18th.  Is it right

         25  to say that on the 18th of April, the outcome of the

Page 8723

          1  conflict is totally unknown?

          2       A.   The position where I was, it was impossible

          3  to tell.

          4       Q.   On that day, it is not possible to know what

          5  is going to become of the Lasva Valley and of the

          6  inhabitants thereof?

          7       A.   Impossible.  I couldn't know a thing.

          8       Q.   [redacted] couldn't know either.

          9            JUDGE CASSESE:  That's a comment, if I may

         10  say so, Mr. Terrier.

         11            MR. TERRIER:  It is, but I have no further

         12  questions of the witness.

         13            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.

         14            Mrs. Slokovic-Glumac, you have the floor.

         15            MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:  Thank you,

         16  Mr. President.

         17                 Re-examined by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac:

         18       Q.   Mr. Rajic, very briefly, could you please

         19  tell us, what are all the things you did in order to

         20  try to get hold of the videotape of what you saw on the

         21  18th?

         22       A.   I did all sorts of things.  I looked all

         23  over, Germany, the Netherlands, Austria, because I

         24  recall his statement 100 per cent, but I can't prove it

         25  without the cassette itself.  So what is most reliable

Page 8724

          1  is my own statement, and then to be followed by the

          2  videocassette.  And what I'm saying now is the truth,

          3  100 per cent.

          4       Q.   Could you just tell us the following:  Until

          5  the present day, you have not seen this video

          6  cassette.  That is to say that in the previous period,

          7  before you made this statement that we submitted to the

          8  court, you had not seen this cassette?

          9       A.   No, never.

         10       Q.   What you recall is only from this single

         11  viewing, that time at that position in Pokrajcici?

         12       A.   Yes.

         13       Q.   All right.  Please tell us, this man who you

         14  established contact with in Vitez, he worked as a

         15  signals man in the command at the headquarters of what

         16  brigade?

         17       A.   That is to say, the command of the PZO, my

         18  anti-aircraft defence.

         19            Please, I want to correct one thing.  Mirko

         20  Safradin is this signals man, and he is the next

         21  witness, I mean, lest there be any misunderstanding.  I

         22  want to say of this my own free will.

         23       Q.   All right.  So Mirko Safradin, who worked at

         24  this PZO station in Vitez is not the same person?

         25       A.   No, no, no.  No, Mirko Safradin, the one who

Page 8725

          1  established contact with me, he was killed at Buhine

          2  Kuce, as a civilian.

          3       Q.   Please, this station, RUP 12, is that a

          4  military station?  Is it part of some military

          5  equipment that exists in the organisation?

          6       A.   Yes, yes.  RUP 12 is a radio station of the

          7  former Yugoslav People's Army that we had before all of

          8  this.  As far as I can remember, it was there from '78,

          9  although I had one in the army in the JNA too.

         10       Q.   With this transmitter RUP 12, can an amateur

         11  also have it and use it at home or is this a military

         12  transmitter that not everyone can have and can only be

         13  obtained from the JNA?

         14       A.   Well, when the JNA fell apart everybody could

         15  have got it, that's a fact, but a unit could also get

         16  it as a unit, because at that time when the Serbs were

         17  withdrawing people took things away.  So whoever took

         18  anything away would keep it.  Although it is an

         19  expensive transmitter, and I don't think an individual

         20  could really own it.

         21       Q.   All right.  So a military structure could

         22  have that kind of a transmitter; is that correct?

         23       A.   Yes, yes.  That's correct.

         24       Q.   The village guards that were in Santici, for

         25  example, did they have radios?

Page 8726

          1       A.   No.  No, they didn't even have a rifle, let

          2  alone a radio.

          3       Q.   I'm talking about the Croats in Santici.  Did

          4  they have a radio station?

          5       A.   No.  No.  Again, I'm telling you, it's not

          6  guards, it's patrols.

          7       Q.   Do you know whether in Santici, Pirici they

          8  had some other guard, some other part of the village

          9  that was also held by the Croats with some kind of

         10  guards?  Did these other parts perhaps have an RUP 12?

         11       A.   Nobody can have an RUP 12 except for a strong

         12  military unit.

         13       Q.   All right.  Did you know that the Muslims in

         14  Ahmici had an RUP 12 at the school?

         15       A.   No.

         16       Q.   All right.  All right.  Tell me, this

         17  anti-aircraft gun that you were manning, what was its

         18  range?

         19       A.   Well, its range was from 8.5 to 9 kilometres,

         20  with an armoured shell.  The other anti-aircraft shell

         21  would explode earlier.

         22       Q.   All right.  So from your position you could

         23  not really fire at any of the areas that were in a

         24  state of war on the 16th.

         25       A.   No.  No, we couldn't.

Page 8727

          1       Q.   Tell me one more thing.  You probably know

          2  Zoran and Mirjan Kupreskic well.  Could you tell me

          3  what you talked about to them and what their interests

          4  were?

          5       A.   I didn't understand your question.

          6       Q.   What did you talk about with Mirjan and Zoran

          7  Kupreskic?  What did they say in terms of politics?

          8  What were their thoughts?

          9       A.   They were strongly opposed to what was going

         10  on.  They were against this policy that was waged from

         11  1992.  At any rate, somebody above them and somebody

         12  who was above us.

         13       Q.   What were they like?  Were they in favour of

         14  war, in favour of a war option, or were they people who

         15  led normal and peaceful lives?  Would you tell us,

         16  please?

         17       A.   These were people who led normal and peaceful

         18  lives.  Zoran is an intellectual.  He's a mechanical

         19  engineer.  During the first conflict he tried to pacify

         20  everyone.  There is no theoretical chance of them being

         21  advocates of anything like that.

         22       Q.   All right.  Mr. Rajic, thank you.

         23            MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:  I have concluded my

         24  questions.

         25            MR. TERRIER:  Mr. President, there is a whole

Page 8728

          1  series of questions that was asked by my learned friend

          2  during her new in chief which did not seem, to me, to

          3  be within the limits of the cross-examination.  I

          4  think -- I believe that all these questions regarding

          5  one's political options are simply --

          6            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes, indeed.  I was about to

          7  ask Mrs. Slokovic-Glumac not to address that question.

          8            We fully agree with you.  In the future, I

          9  think that the counsel for Defence should limit

         10  themselves to only additional questions rather than new

         11  questions which go beyond the cross-examination or, if

         12  necessary, perhaps to go deeper into a matter that was

         13  raised in chief but not something else.  So that

         14  applies for the future.

         15            We don't have any further questions for the

         16  witness.

         17            Mr. Rajic, thank you for giving evidence in

         18  court.  You may now be released.  The witness is being

         19  released.

         20                 (The witness withdrew)

         21            JUDGE CASSESE:  I apologise, but I would like

         22  to go back for one minute to the exhibits concerning

         23  witness Mirko Vidovic.  For the sake of propriety, I

         24  would like to suggest that the Exhibit D28/3 should

         25  only relate to the permit, because now we are aware

Page 8729

          1  that there were two different documents that were

          2  photocopied on one page.  So I would suggest that the

          3  small document, which is now by itself, be given the

          4  number D28A/3.

          5            I would also like to suggest that the

          6  photocopy which is D29/3 should be replaced by a

          7  photocopy, made by the Registry, of the whole passport,

          8  so that the photocopy would be handed to both the

          9  Prosecution and Defence counsel.  We will keep the

         10  original in the Registry file, and I think it is only

         11  proper for Defence counsel and the Prosecution to have

         12  a photocopy of the whole document for the purpose of

         13  future examination or cross-examination of other

         14  witnesses or for the closing statements.

         15            These are minor things but I thought it would

         16  be necessary.  I apologise for being so slow in

         17  reflecting on this matter.

         18            We could now call witness Taraba,

         19  Mr. Taraba.

         20                 (The witness entered court)

         21            JUDGE CASSESE:  Good morning, Mr. Taraba.

         22  Could you please make the solemn declaration?

         23            THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will

         24  speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

         25  truth.

Page 8730

          1            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  You may sit

          2  down.

          3            Counsel Radovic?

          4                 WITNESS:  IVAN TARABA

          5                 Examined by Mr. Radovic:

          6       Q.   Good day, Mr. Taraba.

          7       A.   Good day to you.

          8       Q.   Could you introduce yourself for the Court?

          9  That is, give us your name, your father's name, your

         10  date of birth, and your address.

         11       A.   I'm Ivan Taraba.  My father's name is Marko.

         12  I was born on the 2nd of December, 1941 in Vitez.  My

         13  address is Kralja Petra Kresimira Cetritog number 1.

         14       Q.   Tell me, in 1992 and in 1993, who did you

         15  live with?

         16       A.   With my family.

         17       Q.   And your family consisted of?

         18       A.   Of my wife, my son, daughter, and mother.

         19       Q.   Tell me, where did your mother live?

         20       A.   At that time she lived in the country, in my

         21  weekend cottage.

         22       Q.   What is the name of this village where your

         23  mother lived?

         24       A.   Jardol.

         25       Q.   Did you often visit your mother in the

Page 8731

          1  village of Jardol?

          2       A.   Almost every day.

          3       Q.   Tell me, in 1992 and 1993, where did you

          4  work?

          5       A.   I worked in the Slobodan Princip Seljo

          6  company in Vitez.

          7       Q.   What did that factory mean for the town of

          8  Vitez from an economic point of view in relation to the

          9  population of Vitez?  Could you explain this a bit?

         10  Could you dwell on it a bit more, because you're

         11  familiar with it.

         12       A.   It meant a great deal.  It is a factory that

         13  made products that belonged to the special purposes

         14  industry, that is to say, for the Yugoslav People's

         15  Army.  It was one of the largest companies in Vitez,

         16  and it was broadly linked to various companies

         17  throughout the former Yugoslavia.  It also meant a

         18  great deal to the town of Vitez and the former JNA.

         19       Q.   Did it have many people who were employed

         20  there at this factory?

         21       A.   Well, almost 1.000 workers.  I don't know the

         22  exact figure.

         23       Q.   Tell me, what are you by profession?

         24       A.   I am a mechanical engineer, with a university

         25  degree.

Page 8732

          1       Q.   Tell me, how did your career evolve?  I'm

          2  actually interested in the part that pertains to your

          3  employment in the factory, that is to say, when you

          4  first started working in the factory and throughout

          5  that period until 1992 and 1993.

          6       A.   Practically I worked in that factory from

          7  1962.  In '92 and '93, I had a job that I originally

          8  got in 1985.

          9       Q.   And what job is this?

         10       A.   I was head of maintenance of special -- of

         11  the special purpose industry.

         12       Q.   Did you know Mirjan Kupreskic?

         13       A.   I knew Mirjan as an inhabitant of the town of

         14  Vitez and as a worker who was employed at the site

         15  where the former Unis factories were.  That is to say,

         16  in other words, I knew him personally.  I knew where he

         17  worked and I knew what he did.

         18       Q.   But did you know him well or just like that,

         19  superficially?  How should I put this?

         20       A.   Well, superficially, because he was at the

         21  same site.  We went to the same cafeteria.  We saw each

         22  other every day, but we didn't meet through work.

         23       Q.   Did you know Zoran Kupreskic?

         24       A.   I know Zoran very well.

         25       Q.   How come?

Page 8733

          1       A.   Well, we are colleagues.  We're involved in

          2  the same line of work.  I was also his immediate

          3  supervisor for a certain period of time when I was

          4  transferred to the special purpose industry, rather, to

          5  the Slobodan Princip Seljo enterprise.

          6       Q.   Tell me, in this enterprise in 1992 and 1993,

          7  that is to say, until the outbreak of the war -- I'm

          8  really interested in the period up to the 15th of

          9  April, 1993.  What was the ethnic composition of the

         10  employees in this company?

         11       A.   Well, as far as these factories are

         12  concerned, there were about 3.500 workers.  The ethnic

         13  composition was a balanced one in line with the ethnic

         14  composition of the population of the municipality of

         15  Vitez.  The same goes for that part of the factory in

         16  which I worked in 1992, 1993, in which Mr. Kupreskic

         17  worked in as well or, rather, in our own department,

         18  the one that I headed and where Mr. Zoran Kupreskic was

         19  subordinated to me.

         20       Q.   So tell me, what would the proportions be,

         21  roughly?

         22       A.   Out of the 28 employees in our organisational

         23  unit, there were about 50 per cent Croats, that is to

         24  say, Croats and Muslims, and a few Serbs.

         25       Q.   Tell us, after the first free elections and

Page 8734

          1  after the government was established as a result of

          2  these elections, was there any discrimination within

          3  this enterprise against any ethnic group?

          4       A.   Well, I assert that one cannot speak of

          5  discrimination in this environment where I was fully

          6  aware of the ethnic composition, of the relations

          7  between the employees, and specifically in terms of

          8  action taken both by myself as supervisor or by my

          9  subordinates.

         10       Q.   Were you also aware of developments beyond

         11  your department?

         12       A.   No.  What we did, Mr. Kupreskic and I, was

         13  rather specific.

         14       Q.   What is so specific about it?  Could you

         15  describe it?

         16       A.   This is military production.  That's what's

         17  specific.  That production always required greater

         18  responsibility than in other places.  One had to be

         19  punctual; responsible; conscientious, may I say; and

         20  that particular environment was always spared of

         21  various developments that took place outside and around

         22  that environment.  So we were quite apart from these

         23  developments that took place.

         24            We were required to keep production going at

         25  all times.  That is why we were quite isolated from

Page 8735

          1  these external developments.

          2       Q.   In 1990-'92 or 1993, did the production drop

          3  and, thus, a number of redundant workers appeared?

          4       A.   I could hardly answer that question.  I think

          5  that, generally speaking, the production declined, but

          6  at the place where I worked, this decline did not mean

          7  that employees were given notice because our task was a

          8  specific one.  If the production stopped, then we would

          9  go into overhaul, into maintenance, replacement of

         10  parts, and maintenance of a number of installations so

         11  all the equipment would be ready for work at any time.

         12            So that it would happen, for instance, if all

         13  the production workers were on holidays, every other

         14  worker was on holidays or whatever, laid off.  We

         15  worked.

         16       Q.   But did it ever happen in '92 or '93 that

         17  Zoran was laid off or did not come to work?

         18       A.   All I remember is that in 1992, sometime

         19  June, we were all kind of laid off for about three

         20  weeks or perhaps 20 days, and that was the only

         21  interruption we had.  That is a time of summer

         22  holidays, so that we were all absent at that time.

         23       Q.   Otherwise, he always came to work regularly,

         24  or was he absent frequently, or did he come to work

         25  regularly?

Page 8736

          1       A.   Mr. Zoran was the head for machine

          2  maintenance, and he always had to be there.

          3       Q.   Yes, that is all right, but was he always?

          4       A.   Yes, he was always there.  He was regularly

          5  there.

          6       Q.   Do you remember the days right before the

          7  war, that is, 15th of April?  Was he at work then?

          8       A.   I remember that very well because that day

          9  Zoran and I left the company -- came out of the company

         10  together.

         11       Q.   And you went where?

         12       A.   We went towards our locality in Vitez.  We

         13  walked.  We went on foot to Vitez with another

         14  gentleman, of Muslim origin, who also worked in our

         15  company.

         16       Q.   You being Zoran's boss, did you happen to

         17  notice his attitude to those people subordinated to

         18  him?  Did he distinguish between Croats and Muslims

         19  and, thus, did he harass Muslims or did he apply a

         20  balance to both groups?

         21       A.   Zoran had 28 workers under him.  Mechanical,

         22  that is.  Machine operators, that is.  As his head, I

         23  know that Zoran had a very correct attitude towards all

         24  of them, but Zoran is such as a person.  I mean, he

         25  does not make a distinction according to one's ethnic

Page 8737

          1  origin.

          2            If you will allow me to add something, I have

          3  an example, an instance, of a very humane, of a very

          4  warm-hearted attitude towards a subordinate who was a

          5  Muslim.  Zoran and I sometimes would start discussing

          6  why he wasn't at work, because that particular machine

          7  operator had a father who was a diabetic -- a diabetes

          8  patient, and he, therefore, was frequently absent

          9  because of his father's absence.  Now, Zoran was --

         10  Zoran put up with that.  I man, he was quite tolerant.

         11  That particular machine operator was a Muslim.

         12       Q.   Do you remember his name?

         13       A.   Yes, of course, very well.  His name was

         14  Nermin Ahmic.

         15       Q.   Do you perhaps know the names of people he

         16  mostly socialised with, he was closest with, within the

         17  factory?

         18       A.   Well, I could give you some names.

         19       Q.   So will you please do it, only will you

         20  please, when you say a name, tell us what the ethnicity

         21  of that person is.

         22       A.   Zoran directly cooperated, worked, and sat in

         23  the office, day in and day out, with -- or rather

         24  partook of coffee day in and day out with the head of

         25  the production unit, Mr. Mahmutovic; with an electric

Page 8738

          1  technician, Senad Topoljak; with the production

          2  overseer, Dragan Grebenar; with our tools operator,

          3  Ivan Josipovic; and if I may, with the floor manager,

          4  Tarahija, who is a Muslim.  On the team there were no

          5  Serbs, because those couple of Serb bosses were

          6  directly in the production plant.

          7       Q.   All right, but tell us, do you know what was

          8  the specific job of Zoran's in the winter of 1992

          9  and in nineteen-ninety ...

         10       A.   Yes, I do know it very well.

         11       Q.   So will you tell us?

         12       A.   Zoran, that is, I, as his superior, as the

         13  head of that service, we had three separate entities

         14  for special purposes production, and Mr. Zoran, as the

         15  production was reduced before the winter came, his task

         16  was, together with our Muslim colleague, to prepare

         17  plant units for the winter season, primarily with a

         18  view to preventing the freezing of equipment, to avoid

         19  damage.

         20       Q.   Until when was he engaged in this?

         21       A.   I could not tell you exactly until what date

         22  he was committed to that, but it must have been until

         23  the time of low temperatures, until such time when

         24  water begins to freeze.

         25       Q.   When you listed the names that Zoran

Page 8739

          1  socialised with within the company, you did not tell us

          2  what their ethnic origin was.  So will you please

          3  repeat those names, and every time tell us also what

          4  the ethnic origin was of that person.

          5       A.   Mr. Mahmutovic, as the chief of chemical

          6  workers, was Muslim; Mr. Tarahija was also of Muslim

          7  origin; Mr. Grabovac (sic), a Croat; Mr. Josipovic --

          8  rather, sorry, not Grabovac; Grebenar, I'm sorry,

          9  Grebenar -- a Croat; Mr. Josipovic, a Croat;

         10  Mr. Topoljak, a Muslim.

         11       Q.   Tell us if there was any written record of

         12  when who came for work, and how.

         13       A.   We regularly recorded it.  There was a log of

         14  daily attendance at work, that is, the presence or

         15  absence of every employee.  Briefly, we had a shift

         16  log.  That is what we had, a shift log.

         17       Q.   And who kept this log?

         18       A.   The shift log was with the head of the

         19  mechanical maintenance department, Mr. Kupreskic, and

         20  the second logbook was with the head of the electrical

         21  maintenance unit, Mr. --just wait a moment -- Stipe

         22  Stipinovic.  If I may add, both those gentlemen and

         23  Mr. Topoljak shared the office, and they each kept a

         24  separate shift log.

         25       Q.   Do you know where these logs are kept now?

Page 8740

          1       A.   No, it is not known where these logs are,

          2  because the offices were ravaged, and a lot of

          3  documentation was destroyed or taken away, or in other

          4  words stolen, because since our withdrawal, or since

          5  our departure from the company on the 15th, that is, on

          6  the eve of the conflict, we simply did not enter the

          7  company, so anyone who passed by could enter it.  It

          8  was destroyed.

          9       Q.   But tell us, apart from business contacts,

         10  did you talk to Zoran, did you converse with Zoran

         11  about other topics?  Do you know what were his

         12  interests outside work?

         13       A.   I know Mr. Zoran very well indeed.  I know

         14  his spheres of his interest, and perhaps it might be

         15  interesting to note now that Mr. Zoran likes folklore.

         16  That is his hobby.

         17       Q.   We don't have to talk about that, because we

         18  really have heard a great deal about all this.

         19  Everybody recognises him.  But apart from folklore, was

         20  there anything else?

         21       A.   Mr. Zoran is a very sociable person, so he

         22  always attends those parties in Vitez, various

         23  festivities there.

         24            Perhaps the Court might care to know, even

         25  though this is perhaps sort of personal, Mr. Zoran is a

Page 8741

          1  man who is interested and is actively practising yoga

          2  and those transcendental -- how shall I put it --

          3  issues, things.  He read books on the subject, and

          4  he -- well, we're very close, and I also have a

          5  propensity for it, so we did talk about this.  We

          6  exchanged views and literature and talked about these

          7  things.  In Vitez there is such a circle of people

          8  interested in these things.

          9       Q.   But tell us, this Indian literature that

         10  Zoran studied, does it preach violence, or something

         11  else?

         12       A.   I believe that all those gentlemen present

         13  here know very well what they say --

         14       Q.   No, let the present gentlemen be; tell us

         15  what it's about.

         16       A.   Well, what I said, as my people in Bosnia

         17  say, nobody will get a headache from that literature.

         18  It's the saying over there.  Mr. Zoran, perhaps thanks

         19  to that kind of literature, he would never harm an ant,

         20  is how we say in Bosnia, let alone inflict suffering or

         21  pain on anyone.

         22       Q.   So to cut a long story short, this is a

         23  philosophy which preaches non-violence?

         24       A.   Yes, definitely non-violence.

         25            MR. RADOVIC:  Mr. President, I think it is

Page 8742

          1  time to make a break.

          2            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes.  Have you many more

          3  questions?

          4            MR. RADOVIC:  Yes, I do have very many of

          5  them, but on another matter altogether, not on the

          6  Hindu philosophy or anything like that.  We have, as

          7  you see, skipped folklore, as you have noticed.

          8            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  We will take a

          9  15-minute break.

         10                 --- Recess taken at 12.18 p.m.

         11                 --- On resuming at 12.33 p.m.

         12            JUDGE CASSESE:  Counsel Radovic, so far you

         13  have dealt with issues which are covered by the

         14  witness's statement.  I hope you will not go beyond

         15  those matters, Counsel Radovic.  We are very keen to

         16  finish by Thursday with the five more witnesses.

         17            MR. RADOVIC:  The last witness who has been

         18  envisaged for today pertains to the same circumstances

         19  as witness Rajic, and I shall be examining him, and we

         20  are going to shorten the proceedings considerably.

         21       Q.   Mr. Taraba, please, would you continue.

         22            MR. RADOVIC:  Can I continue my questioning?

         23            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes, yes.

         24            MR. RADOVIC:

         25       Q.   Mr. Taraba, we are continuing, and we'd like

Page 8743

          1  to speed things up a bit.  So tell me, on the eve of

          2  the war, on the 15th of April, you went to your

          3  village; is that correct?

          4       A.   Yes.

          5       Q.   Where were you when the shooting began the

          6  next day?

          7       A.   I was in my weekend cottage when the shooting

          8  started.  I was in the village.

          9       Q.   Then tell us what happened with you after

         10  that, but just tell us very briefly, because we are not

         11  really all that interested in that.

         12       A.   I stayed in the village, and I spent the

         13  entire war in the village.

         14       Q.   Until when?

         15       A.   Until the 25th of July, when I had to go to

         16  hospital because I was wounded.

         17       Q.   Tell me, this village where your mother was,

         18  and where your weekend cottage was, and where you went

         19  every day, were there village guards there?

         20       A.   Village guards did exist.  As I was passing

         21  by, going to see my relatives in the village, I would

         22  notice a group of three or four young men who were

         23  patrolling the road.

         24       Q.   Tell me, which village is this, this village

         25  of yours, is a it Croat or a Muslim village or a mixed

Page 8744

          1  village?

          2       A.   It is purely Croat village.

          3       Q.   These village guards that patrolled the area,

          4  did they find something any time with anyone?

          5       A.   Well, rumour had it that as Muslims passed

          6  through that village to their own village, through that

          7  village to their own village --

          8       Q.   Is that a transit village, then?

          9       A.   Yes, it is.  Rumour had it that when they

         10  searched their vehicles, that they would find

         11  ammunition in them.

         12       Q.   The last question would be, do you remember

         13  walking on foot through the Mahala and seeing something

         14  unusual in the Mahala, something unusual, an unusual

         15  building or something?

         16       A.   Well, it's not only that I remember it.  This

         17  was quite a surprise for us, and it came as a terrible

         18  defeat to us, that there were bunkers on the outskirts

         19  of town.  Zoran and I were together, and we were

         20  commenting on this:  "Who are they making this bunker

         21  for?"  The bunker was built overnight, and it was

         22  camouflaged, but you could see it.

         23       Q.   Try to think of the time when this happened.

         24       A.   That could have been a few days prior to the

         25  conflict.

Page 8745

          1       Q.   Which conflict?  The first or the second one?

          2       A.   The conflict on the 16th.

          3       Q.   That is to say before the war began?

          4       A.   Yes, before the war began, and we were

          5  commenting on the fact that this was probably built

          6  overnight by machines and then camouflaged.

          7            MR. RADOVIC:  Mr. President, I have finished

          8  with this witness.  Thank you.

          9            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  I assume there is

         10  no cross-examination by other Defence counsel then?

         11            Mr. Blaxill?

         12            MR. BLAXILL:  Thank you, Mr. President, Your

         13  Honours.

         14                 Cross-examined by Mr. Blaxill:

         15       Q.   Mr. Taraba, good afternoon to you, sir.  My

         16  name is Michael Blaxill.

         17       A.   Good day.

         18       Q.   I am one of the attorneys assigned to the

         19  Prosecution in this case, and I do have just a few

         20  questions to ask you, sir, but not very many.

         21            You say that Mr. Zoran Kupreskic had worked

         22  as your subordinate for some time.  Can you indicate

         23  how long that was, sir?

         24       A.   I think it was for about four or five years.

         25  I can't tell exactly.  I would have to try to

Page 8746

          1  remember.  About four to five years.

          2       Q.   I believe, from your description, the work

          3  you did within your section of the factory was work of

          4  some very special importance in military production; is

          5  that correct, sir?

          6       A.   Very important and responsible.

          7       Q.   Did that work involve your being conscious of

          8  issues of security and of the secrecy of some of the

          9  work, perhaps?  That kind of responsibility?

         10       A.   No.

         11       Q.   Did the work involve the handling, in the

         12  production sense, of any particularly dangerous

         13  materials, where issues of safety were very paramount?

         14       A.   Yes.  Yes, yes.

         15       Q.   In those circumstances, sir, I believe you've

         16  indicated that the highest standards of professional

         17  competence and discipline were required of the people

         18  working in that section, presumably for safety reasons,

         19  if nothing else.

         20       A.   I don't really think I understood the

         21  question.  Please, could you clarify it?

         22       Q.   The working practices that you needed to have

         23  in your section, and the standards of professional

         24  self-discipline of the staff, were they important for

         25  the safety of the work that you did?

Page 8747

          1       A.   It was for the purpose of the technological

          2  safety of the work involved, because these were

          3  explosives, so we're talking about technological

          4  safety.

          5       Q.   You have spoken very highly of Mr. Zoran

          6  Kupreskic and his kindness to members of staff and his

          7  fair treatment of people.  Would it also be fair to say

          8  that he needed to impose high standards of professional

          9  conduct and discipline as well, as well as showing

         10  compassion to his co-workers?

         11       A.   I think that kindness could even be excluded,

         12  because Mr. Kupreskic is a person who very

         13  professionally and responsibly, without being fearful

         14  of any objections, carried out his duties together with

         15  subordinates.  I think that kindness was what he

         16  exhibited when he had coffee with people, and apart

         17  from work, because this kind of work requires a great

         18  deal of conscientiousness, and also a high level of

         19  expertise and professionalism.

         20       Q.   Thank you, sir.  You say that you and

         21  Mr. Kupreskic departed from the factory on the 15th of

         22  April.  By that, do you mean that you simply went home

         23  as normal?  Or had you been told that there was some

         24  reason you would not be going back?

         25       A.   No one told us that, nor did we expect not to

Page 8748

          1  be coming to work.  This happened all of a sudden, at

          2  least for me.  I don't know about others.

          3       Q.   But as far as you were concerned, you

          4  expected to go back to work, say, on the 16th, in the

          5  normal way?

          6       A.   Yes, and no one had put his things away, his

          7  personal belongings or the things they had for working

          8  purposes.  We expected to come back.

          9       Q.   You returned to the village of Jardol that

         10  evening, the evening of the 15th, to your weekend home?

         11       A.   Yes.

         12       Q.   If I understood you correctly sir, in your

         13  evidence --

         14       A.   I'm sorry, no, no.  No, no, no, no, not the

         15  weekend cottage.  No, no, no, I went back to where my

         16  apartment is, and from the apartment I went to the

         17  weekend cottage.

         18       Q.   But on the night of the 15th, you did spend

         19  the night, did you, at the weekend cottage in Jardol?

         20       A.   Yes.

         21       Q.   You say you were awoken by the sounds of

         22  conflict the next day and, in fact, you remained in the

         23  village right up to the 25th of July, is that right,

         24  sir?

         25       A.   Yes.

Page 8749

          1       Q.   Did you see Mr. Zoran Kupreskic at all

          2  between the 15th of April and the 25th of July?

          3       A.   No.  No, not at all.

          4       Q.   You were acquainted with Mr. Mirjan

          5  Kupreskic.  Did you see him at all between the 15th of

          6  April and the 25th of July?

          7       A.   No.

          8       Q.   Thank you very much indeed.

          9            MR. BLAXILL:  I have no further questions,

         10  Your Honours.  Thank you.

         11            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  Counsel Radovic?

         12            MR. RADOVIC:  Thank you very much.  I have no

         13  further questions after the cross-examination.  I think

         14  that my previous questions were sufficient.  Thank

         15  you.

         16            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  We have no

         17  questions for the witness.

         18            Mr. Taraba, thank you so much for giving

         19  evidence.  You may now be released.

         20            THE WITNESS:  You're welcome.  Thank you.

         21                 (The witness withdrew)

         22                 (The witness entered court)

         23            JUDGE CASSESE:  Good afternoon.  Would you

         24  please make the solemn declaration?

         25            THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will

Page 8750

          1  speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

          2  truth.

          3            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  You may sit

          4  down.

          5            Counsel Radovic?

          6            MR. RADOVIC:  Mr. President, since this

          7  witness is supposed to testify to circumstances similar

          8  to those related by Anto Rajic, I shall try to shorten

          9  the proceedings as much as possible, and I shall

         10  immediately talk about the things why he was called in

         11  to testify in the first place.

         12                 WITNESS:  MIRKO SAFRADIN

         13                 Examined by Mr. Radovic:

         14       Q.   Mr. Safradine, could you please introduce

         15  yourself to the Court first and tell us your name, your

         16  surname, the name of your father, your date of birth,

         17  your address?

         18       A.   I'm Mirko Safradin.  I was born on the 3rd of

         19  January, 1964.  Franjo is my father's name.  My address

         20  is Santici, 130, the municipality of Vitez.

         21       Q.   Towards the end of 1992 and until the

         22  outbreak of the war, which we consider to be the 16th

         23  of April, 1993, who did you live with?

         24       A.   I have a family, a wife, and two children,

         25  and my father, and my mother.

Page 8751

          1       Q.   Do you know Anto Rajic?

          2       A.   Yes.  He's my neighbour.

          3       Q.   Your military orientation, so to speak, what

          4  was your military duty or, rather, what was your

          5  military training, or what was the military assignment

          6  that you had?

          7       A.   I was a member of the PZO.

          8       Q.   What does the PZO mean?

          9       A.   That is the anti-aircraft defence.

         10       Q.   Do you recall, as a member of the

         11  anti-aircraft defence were you in any contact with witness DG

         12  Rajic?

         13       A.   Well, I was with Anto throughout in the

         14  anti-aircraft defence.

         15       Q.   Do you remember what kind of weaponry you

         16  had?

         17       A.   Yes.  It was a gun of 40 millimetres.

         18       Q.   And the make?

         19       A.   Bofors.

         20       Q.   Do you remember, in the period of the 16th of

         21  April until the 25th of April, where you were with this

         22  gun?

         23       A.   We were in Pokrajcici.  On the 18th we were

         24  transferred to Prahulje.

         25       Q.   This place that you were transferred to on

Page 8752

          1  the 18th, are you sure that that was the place or are

          2  you a bit confused with the names of the villages?

          3       A.   Well, I said that first we were in Prahulje

          4  and on the 18th we were transferred to Pokrajcici.

          5       Q.   When you were transferred to the village of

          6  Pokrajcici, were you by your gun all the time or did

          7  you have time to relax or did you go to a house

          8  somewhere?

          9       A.   Since we came in the afternoon, we had time.

         10  We sought accommodation there and things like that.

         11       Q.   Did you find accommodation?

         12       A.   Yes.  We met a gentleman and a lady called

         13  Jako and Luca Bilic, and they offered accommodation to

         14  us and that's where we stayed.

         15       Q.   The place where you stayed at, were you there

         16  on your own or were you with Anto Rajic?

         17       A.   I was with Anto Rajic.

         18       Q.   The house that you stayed at, did it have a

         19  TV set?

         20       A.   Yes, it did.

         21       Q.   What did you do when you came to that house?

         22       A.   We watched the news on television.  We

         23  watched the news programme of TV Sarajevo and,

         24  naturally, we were interested in what was going on down

         25  there.  In the news I recognised [redacted].

Page 8753

          1       Q.   Had you known him from before, [redacted]?

          2       A.   Yes.

          3       Q.   Did you know exactly where his house was?

          4  How well did you know him?

          5       A.   I knew where his house was, and I knew him

          6  because his son went to elementary school with me.

          7       Q.   Which son?

          8       A.   Naser.

          9       Q.   Did you ever come to his home?

         10       A.   Yes, perhaps once, not more than that.

         11       Q.   What did you see in this television programme

         12  where [redacted] appeared?  Tell us what you

         13  remembered from this television programme.

         14       A.   He was laying, half laying.  His arms and

         15  hands were bandaged up to the elbows and his face were

         16  burned.  He talked about some soldiers barging into his

         17  house and killing his son, his daughter-in-law, and two

         18  grandchildren.

         19       Q.   You remember that well, did you?

         20       A.   Yes, I did.  Then this journalist, I don't

         21  know if it was a man or a lady journalist, but this

         22  person asked whether he had recognised the attackers.

         23  He said that he didn't recognise anyone because they

         24  were camouflaged.

         25       Q.   Tell me, did you know the hospital -- where

Page 8754

          1  the hospital was, the hospital where he was in?

          2       A.   It said that it was the hospital in Zenica.

          3       Q.   At that time of this TV programme that you're

          4  talking about, who held the town of Zenica?  You had

          5  civilian and military authority in Zenica?

          6       A.   Well, it was the Muslims.  Them primarily.

          7       Q.   Tell me, during the war in

          8  Bosnia-Herzegovina, during the war between the Muslims

          9  and the Croats or when the Muslims and the Croats waged

         10  war with the Serbs, was there any danger for the town

         11  of Zenica, that is, having the Muslims lose the town of

         12  Zenica?

         13       A.   Could you please repeat that question?

         14       Q.   At any point of time during the war in Bosnia

         15  and Herzegovina, were the Muslims ever in danger of

         16  being expelled from Zenica, to the best of your

         17  knowledge, of course?

         18       A.   Well, that I don't know.

         19       Q.   Tell me, in a military sense, did the town of

         20  Zenica have a lot of Muslim soldiers?

         21       A.   Yes.  Yes, because they were a majority

         22  there, I think.

         23       Q.   So it was a strong military stronghold?

         24       A.   Yes.

         25       Q.   Do you remember, in the news where you

Page 8755

          1  recognised [redacted], whether mention was made of

          2  anything else?  Do you remember any other information

          3  that you heard and saw that evening on television?

          4       A.   No.  I only remember what I said just now.

          5       Q.   I know, but then there is the logical

          6  question of why did that draw your attention.  Why did

          7  you remember that rather than other things from the

          8  news which included that detail about [redacted]?

          9       A.   Well, I remember that because I knew the man

         10  from earlier on and because I was interested in what he

         11  would say.

         12       Q.   When the journalist put his or her question

         13  to [redacted] as to who had done that, was that a

         14  single question or was that question repeated?

         15       A.   The question was repeated once again, twice.

         16            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Radovic, that is a leading

         17  question, quite obviously.

         18            MR. RADOVIC:  Your Honour, I give up this

         19  question.

         20       Q.   Now tell me, did you and Rajic comment on

         21  what you had seen on television or did you not do

         22  that?

         23       A.   Well, we listened to what he had to say, and

         24  it's not that there was some --

         25       Q.   Tell me, what [redacted]  said that he did not

Page 8756

          1  recognise the persons who had done it, did he give an

          2  explanation why he could not recognise them?

          3       A.   What I said.  He did not recognise them, and

          4  he could not recognise them.  Then the journalist asked

          5  him whether he recognised the persons who did it.  He

          6  said, "No, I didn't because they were camouflaged."  So

          7  that was repeated twice.

          8       Q.   Do you remember that either I or my

          9  colleague, Ms. Slokovic-Glumac, asked to you make a

         10  statement about what you had seen?

         11       A.   Yes.

         12       Q.   Do you remember whether you made a statement

         13  to us?

         14       A.   Yes, I remember.

         15       Q.   When we were questioning you, did we explain

         16  to you why we needed that statement of yours instead of

         17  showing the Court the entire news item that we were

         18  talking about?  Did we explain this to you, what we

         19  needed it for?

         20       A.   Yes.  Yes, you did.

         21       Q.   And why was this?

         22       A.   Because [redacted], in that statement, accused

         23  Zoran and Miro Kupreskic.  No?  No?  I didn't

         24  understand what you said.

         25       Q.   I imagine you didn't understand the

Page 8757

          1  question.  When we talked to you, was any mention made

          2  of whether we had that cassette or were we looking for

          3  the video cassette?  I'm sorry, but it's better for me

          4  to put a direct question, obviously.

          5       A.   Could you please repeat what you said?  I

          6  didn't understand.

          7       Q.   When we talked to you, did we tell you

          8  whether we had this cassette or we did not have this

          9  cassette with the news programme?

         10       A.   You didn't have the cassette.

         11       Q.   We didn't have the cassette.  Then you told

         12  us what you saw but without seeing this video cassette?

         13       A.   Yes, that's right.

         14       Q.   You remembered that what you saw is what you

         15  told us about today; right?

         16       A.   Yes.

         17            MR. RADOVIC:  Mr. President, now I would like

         18  Prosecutor's Exhibit 557 to be shown to the witness,

         19  the video.

         20       Q.   Now you will see this particular news item,

         21  and will you please watch it carefully?

         22                 (Videotape played)

         23            THE INTERPRETER:  (Voiceover)

         24            Reporter:  " ... uniforms of the Croat

         25  Defence Council.  There is a very moving story of [redacted]

Page 8758

          1  [redacted]  because some creatures in uniforms from the HVO

          2  killed his son, a daughter-in-law, and two sons of whom

          3  one was in a cradle.  He was only three months and

          4  three days old."

          5            [redacted]:  "Yesterday, in the morning of

          6  the 16th of April, sometime around 5.00, we were still

          7  asleep then.  The child was crying, because I had a

          8  grandson who was three months and three days old

          9  today.  My son got up and switched on the lights to see

         10  what that child -- and I was sleeping in the other

         11  room.

         12            "Meanwhile, these HOS men -- no, not the HOS

         13  men but the HVO army came to the door, kicked the door

         14  off the hinges and immediately let off a burst of

         15  fire.  They entered the room.  The lights were on.

         16  They saw my son on his feet, so they immediately got

         17  him down.  I was behind the door, and I was peering.

         18  Then they turned their weapons on my daughter-in-law

         19  and my other grandson.

         20            "Then they started but the little one was in

         21  the cradle and let out a sound, and then they returned,

         22  and one of the soldiers returned and fired the whole

         23  burst of fire into the small one in the cradle, the

         24  little one of three months and three days.

         25            "I tried to go there, but they immediately

Page 8759

          1  lighted two fires in that room and in the kitchen, so

          2  the fire spread very quickly.  I tried to get those

          3  children to the other room where I was, and tried to

          4  localise the fire.  I mean, they may have been killed

          5  but I hope I tried to save them from being burned down,

          6  but I fell completely because the flames were spreading

          7  frighteningly quickly.

          8            "I was sitting in the corner of that room

          9  and the window was open, and here the door had already

         10  burned down and the windows in that room where the

         11  children had been asleep."

         12            MR. RADOVIC:

         13       Q.   Did you watch this carefully?

         14       A.   Yes, I did.

         15       Q.   Is that the news item that was broadcast that

         16  day when you watched the news on TV Sarajevo with Anto

         17  Rajic?

         18       A.   Yes, but the last part is missing.

         19       Q.   What is missing?

         20       A.   Well, what's missing is when the journalist,

         21  whether he or she asks who did that and did he

         22  recognise who had done that.

         23       Q.   So what you are claiming is that this

         24  cassette is not complete because the end is missing.

         25       A.   Quite right.  It is not complete.

Page 8760

          1       Q.   Have you heard of a TV Sarajevo broadcast

          2  called "The Hague Diary"?

          3       A.   Yes.

          4       Q.   Have you ever seen that programme?

          5       A.   No.

          6       Q.   Now, in this part of this story -- of [redacted]

          7  [redacted]  story, did you take note of his mentioning

          8  that -- first saying that this was done HOS men and

          9  then immediately correcting himself and saying it was

         10  the HVO?  Do you know what colour was the HOS uniform?

         11  If you know it, of course.  If you don't, then that's

         12  fine.

         13       A.   I don't know.

         14       Q.   Have you ever heard of the Jokers?

         15       A.   Yes, I have heard.

         16       Q.   Tell us, who were the Jokers?

         17       A.   I don't know that either.

         18       Q.   Do you know what colour their uniform was?

         19       A.   I don't.

         20       Q.   Were you ever serving on village guards, you

         21  personally?

         22       A.   No, I did not.

         23       Q.   Why was that?

         24       A.   Because I had already been assigned to the

         25  anti-aircraft defence.

Page 8761

          1       Q.   That PZO or AAD, was it established only

          2  after the elections.

          3       A.   That is beforehand we called it PVO.

          4       Q.   Did it exist before?

          5       A.   It existed before.

          6       Q.   Now, was that the mobilisation of

          7  anti-aircraft defence members when you joined this unit

          8  or how was it that you were activated?

          9       A.   Well, it was on the 1st of June, '92.  I was

         10  still -- that is when the Serb aircraft flew over.

         11       Q.   This gun, Bofors, the 40 millimetre that you

         12  served, is it single barrelled or multi-barrelled?

         13       A.   Its range is 9.000, and instantaneous four

         14  and a half.

         15       Q.   So what aircraft did it defend you

         16  effectively against?  How should an aircraft fly that

         17  you can hit it with this particular gun?

         18       A.   Why, that is something that I don't know.

         19       Q.   So tell us, can you hit a plane flying at an

         20  altitude of 10.000 metres?

         21       A.   No, I could not.

         22       Q.   So it's efficiency is limited by its limited

         23  range, if I understood it properly?

         24       A.   Yes.

         25            MR. RADOVIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I

Page 8762

          1  have no further questions for this witness.

          2            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  Counsel Radovic,

          3  I assume there is no cross-examination by other Defence

          4  counsel.

          5            Mr. Blaxill.

          6            MR. BLAXILL:  Thank you, Your Honours.

          7                 Cross-examined by Mr. Blaxill:

          8       Q.   Mr. Safradin, good afternoon.  My name is

          9  Michael Blaxill.  I'm one of the Prosecution attorneys

         10  assigned to this case.  As a result of what you've said

         11  to today I do have a few questions for you if you'll

         12  bear with me.  I hope it will not take too long.

         13            You say that you were activated in service in

         14  June, 1992, is that correct, sir?

         15       A.   Yes.

         16       Q.   Did you go straight into service with an

         17  anti-aircraft unit?

         18       A.   Yes.

         19       Q.   Was your neighbour Mr. Anto Rajic also in

         20  that unit at that time?

         21       A.   He was, yes, except that he was there before

         22  me.

         23       Q.   When you joined were you, in fact, assigned

         24  to the same gun team as Mr. Rajic?

         25       A.   Yes.

Page 8763

          1       Q.   So, in fact, was he your gun commander?  He

          2  was your superior on that gun team?

          3       A.   Yes.

          4       Q.   Would I be right in assuming, therefore, that

          5  every time that Mr. Rajic was on duty with the gun so

          6  you would you be?  Did you work as a team all the

          7  time?

          8       A.   Yes.

          9       Q.   You had what, about three other team-mates to

         10  operate the gun?  It's a five-man gun; is that right?

         11       A.   Yes.

         12       Q.   When you were serving after -- let us move on

         13  from June through July and August of 1992.  Did you

         14  consider yourself, at that time, serving in the HVO or

         15  some organisation like that?  Did you feel that your

         16  anti-aircraft unit formed part of such an

         17  organisation?

         18       A.   No.

         19       Q.   What did you consider your overall military

         20  structure to be then?  What army did you belong to; if

         21  I can ask that.

         22       A.   The anti-aircraft defence existed even before

         23  as the Territorial Defence, even while we were all

         24  together.  So it all existed before, and we did not

         25  have anything, that is, we did not have any -- we did

Page 8764

          1  not belong to any command, the HVO or anything else.

          2       Q.   Later on, did that change at all?  Did the TO

          3  and others share out the guns, and separate, and do

          4  different duty?

          5       A.   Afterwards, afterwards, during the conflicts

          6  and suchlike, they separated.  That is, some weapons

          7  went to the Muslim side and some stayed with us.

          8       Q.   About when do you remember that happening?

          9       A.   It happened right after the -- or around the

         10  conflict, or in the wake of the conflict.

         11       Q.   Which conflict are we referring to there,

         12  sir?  Was that the one, the October '92?

         13       A.   Yes, after the first conflict.

         14       Q.   Now, on the 16th of April of 1993, your gun

         15  team was in -- and I hope -- is it Prahulje?  My

         16  pronunciation is probably very poor.  I apologise for

         17  that.  Is that the village you were in on the 16th of

         18  April?

         19       A.   No.

         20       Q.   Can you tell me which village you were in on

         21  the 16th of April?

         22       A.   On the 16th, I was at home in the village of

         23  Santici.

         24       Q.   You were home in the village of Santici.

         25  Were you therefore on leave from your military duty?

Page 8765

          1       A.   Yes, and the 17th, I reported at Prahulje.

          2       Q.   So on the morning of the 16th, you were

          3  actually in Santici when the conflict started, or

          4  shooting was heard in Ahmici nearby, is that right?

          5       A.   Yes.

          6       Q.   So what did you do on the 16th?  Since this

          7  conflict has started nearby, what did you do?  Did you

          8  try and report somewhere?

          9       A.   No, I did not.  That day I spent at home.  I

         10  did not report anywhere because I hoped that I would

         11  not have to report back at Prahulje earlier.

         12       Q.   Now, at your home in Santici, how far were

         13  you from the village of Ahmici, from where the shooting

         14  was going on?

         15       A.   It's a kilometre, a kilometre and a half.

         16       Q.   Did you feel at that time that you were safe

         17  where you were, in your home in Santici, and that your

         18  family was safe?

         19       A.   Well, there was nothing --I mean, Santici is

         20  a Croatian village.  There was nothing -- I mean, I was

         21  simply at home, and there were no problems.

         22       Q.   So it was a Croatian village, and there were

         23  no problems there; what made you then report for duty

         24  on the 17th of April?

         25       A.   Because I was due on that date.

Page 8766

          1       Q.   In other words, that was your due date to

          2  return to your unit; correct?

          3       A.   Yes.

          4       Q.   So your decision to report in had nothing to

          5  do with the conflict going on relatively nearby in

          6  Ahmici?

          7       A.   No, no.

          8       Q.   You reported where on the 17th?

          9       A.   I reported where I was assigned to be on

         10  duty, that is, at Prahulje, where the weapon was.

         11       Q.   On that day, on that day you reported, did

         12  you just stay with your weapon for a period of time

         13  that day?

         14       A.   I reported on the 17th, and I was there that

         15  day at night, and around noon on the 18th, we moved to

         16  a place called Pokrajcici.

         17       Q.   Did you, on the night or early evening or the

         18  night of the 17th, did you leave your gun position and

         19  go to any accommodation for rest, to eat, to sleep?

         20       A.   Yes, Anto Rajic and I went to my brother's,

         21  but we did not spend the night there.  We went back

         22  again.

         23       Q.   So you went to your brother's place for a

         24  period of time during that night, is that correct, and

         25  not the whole night?

Page 8767

          1       A.   It was the evening of the 17th, and we did

          2  not spend the whole night.  We went back.

          3       Q.   Where did your brother live?

          4       A.   Novi Travnik.

          5       Q.   In Novi Travnik.  How far was that from the

          6  gun position?

          7       A.   It's about five or six kilometres, maybe.

          8       Q.   Did you have a vehicle in which to travel?

          9       A.   Well, we went there -- we had a vehicle.  I

         10  can't really remember.

         11       Q.   Do you recall, did your brother have a

         12  television?

         13       A.   Sure, he had television, but we went up there

         14  because we needed more members of the team and since he

         15  was also a member of the anti-aircraft defence with

         16  us.

         17       Q.   But on your visit to his home, did you in

         18  fact watch any television?

         19       A.   No.

         20       Q.   Were you not curious about the recent events

         21  of the day before, the shooting you had heard in

         22  Ahmici?  Were you not curious to try and catch up on

         23  the news?

         24       A.   No, we did not.  I think there was no

         25  electricity in Novi Travnik either.  There was no

Page 8768

          1  electricity.

          2       Q.   You then returned to your gun position later

          3  that night, and I believe said you were transferred on

          4  the day of the 18th.  Was that around noon, I believe

          5  you said?

          6       A.   Yes.

          7       Q.   Where was it you went on the 18th?

          8       A.   We went to a locality, to a place called

          9  Pokrajcici.

         10       Q.   I believe there Mr. Rajic arranged for you to

         11  have some accommodation to stay in whilst you were

         12  there; is that correct?

         13       A.   Well, we arrived in Pokrajcici, got put up

         14  there, and he and Ivan went to look for some

         15  accommodation.

         16       Q.   By that evening, you had accommodation

         17  arranged at the house of the family Bilic; correct?

         18       A.   Yes.

         19       Q.   Now, you clearly say you recalled seeing the

         20  interview that we have seen here on video, and that you

         21  knew [redacted] before because you had been to

         22  school with his son; is that right?

         23       A.   Yes.

         24       Q.   Was there any other element of the news,

         25  though, that caught your interest in particular?  Any

Page 8769

          1  news about Ahmici, Santici?  These are close by you.

          2       A.   No.  I don't think I remember anything else.

          3       Q.   So you're saying the only element of the news

          4  that night that you recall was the interview of the

          5  gentleman, [redacted], from a hospital bed?  That's what

          6  you're saying, sir?

          7       A.   Yes.

          8       Q.   Do you recall any other programmes that were

          9  on the television that evening that may have been

         10  watched by yourself and Mr. Rajic?

         11       A.   Could you repeat the question, please?

         12       Q.   Yes.  Do you recall any other television

         13  programmes that came on in the course of that evening

         14  while you were watching television with Mr. Rajic at

         15  the Bilic household?

         16       A.   I only watched the news, so that is the main

         17  news programme of the Sarajevo television which showed

         18  it.

         19       Q.   Have you -- I will just ask again:  Have you

         20  ever seen that broadcast on any other time subsequent

         21  to the 18th of April, 1993, either on television or by

         22  way of a video recording, before today, have you ever

         23  seen it?

         24       A.   After that, no, I did not see it again.

         25       Q.   Sir, when you were aware of the accusation

Page 8770

          1  against Zoran and Mirjan Kupreskic, these two gentlemen

          2  are known to you, are they?

          3       A.   Yes, they are.

          4       Q.   Would you say they were friends of yours, or

          5  good acquaintances?

          6       A.   They were friends, good acquaintances.

          7       Q.   When was it that you became aware of the

          8  allegation against them implicating them in the alleged

          9  incidents in the [redacted]  household that [redacted] spoke

         10  about?

         11       A.   I learned it in the village.  The story

         12  spread.  People talked.

         13       Q.   Did you at a subsequent time discuss this

         14  position at all with Mr. Rajic, your friend?

         15       A.   Yes.  Afterwards, he asked me -- when we

         16  watched that recording, he had seen it once again, and

         17  so he asked me if I had done the same, and things like

         18  that.

         19       Q.   When did you have such a conversation with

         20  Mr. Rajic?

         21       A.   I was with him when he watched it afterwards,

         22  a recording of a kind, and then he asked me, but I

         23  don't really remember when it was exactly.

         24       Q.   I'm sorry, that last reply has confused me a

         25  little.  Are you saying that on some subsequent

Page 8771

          1  occasion to the 18th of April, 1993, Mr. Rajic watched

          2  a recording again, and you were with him when that

          3  happened?  Is that what you're saying, sir?  I want to

          4  be clear on the record.

          5       A.   No, I did not watch it with him.  He watched

          6  it.  Afterwards, once again, he once again watched that

          7  recording, and after that he asked me if I had seen it

          8  again.

          9       Q.   Subsequent to that conversation, has there

         10  ever been a further conversation between you and

         11  Mr. Rajic in connection with that video recording, that

         12  television interview?

         13       A.   No.

         14       Q.   But since that conversation, it is since then

         15  that you met with the lawyers for the Kupreskic

         16  brothers, and you then gave them a statement; is that

         17  right?

         18       A.   Yes.

         19       Q.   Thank you.  Do you, sir, happen to know a

         20  gentleman by the name of Mr. Slavko Sakic?

         21       A.   Yes.

         22       Q.   Can you tell me who he is and what he does,

         23  or what he did at that time, in 1993?

         24       A.   What he did at the time, I don't know.  He

         25  was also a member of the anti-aircraft defence, but

Page 8772

          1  what he did, I don't know.

          2       Q.   Sir, as a local from Santici, did you know

          3  Mr. Mirjan Santic from that same village?

          4       A.   Yes.

          5       Q.   Were you aware of Mr. Mirjan Santic's

          6  military position in April of 1993?

          7       A.   All I know is that he was there, on the

          8  spot.  I don't know what he did, whether he went to

          9  conquer, to take something, take possession of

         10  something, I don't know.

         11       Q.   If I suggest to you, sir, that Mr. Mirjan

         12  Santic was a member of the military police, even of the

         13  unit called the Jokers, would that ring any bell with

         14  you?  Would that provoke a recollection, or not?

         15       A.   I know that he was a military policeman, but

         16  the rest of it, I don't know.

         17       Q.   Thank you.  Had you ever seen him around in

         18  any form of uniform in Santici before the conflict?

         19       A.   No.

         20       Q.   Thank you very much for answering my

         21  questions, sir.

         22            MR. BLAXILL:  I'm obliged to Your Honours.

         23            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.

         24            Counsel Radovic, do you think we can get

         25  through today, or --

Page 8773

          1            MR. RADOVIC:  I think so, yes.

          2            May I?

          3            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes, sorry.  Yes.

          4                 Re-examined by Mr. Radovic:

          5       Q.   When you told us how Anto Rajic saw again the

          6  programme with [redacted], could you tell us, how

          7  could he see the same programme twice on television?

          8       A.   Well, when he watched it twice -- for the

          9  second time, it was on that Hague Diary, and I know we

         10  talked about it that his wife -- that his wife had

         11  watched it on The Hague Diary, and she told him there

         12  was a replay on the Thursday or something like that,

         13  and he saw it then, and then he recognised it.

         14       Q.   Yes, but tell us, that Hague Diary, did it

         15  show old footage or testimony at The Hague Tribunal?

         16       A.   I did not see it.  He told me that he had

         17  seen what we had seen before, that is, on the 18th of

         18  April.

         19       Q.   Do you know if [redacted]

         20  [redacted]  Have you ever heard

         21  of that?

         22       A.   No.

         23       Q. [redacted]

         24  [redacted] transmitted by the Bosnia and Herzegovina

         25  television on its Hague Diary programme?

Page 8774

          1       A.   All I heard was that Anto had seen it on The

          2  Hague Diary.  I know nothing else.

          3       Q.   Do you know exactly what was shown in The

          4  Hague Diary?

          5       A.   He told me that they had shown the same thing

          6  that we had seen on the 18th.

          7       Q.   Is that how you understood him?

          8       A.   Yes.

          9       Q.   Do you know what The Hague Diaries feature?

         10  Have you ever seen a story on The Hague Diary?

         11       A.   No, I have never seen it.

         12       Q.   Has anyone ever told you what The Hague Diary

         13  was about?

         14       A.   No, only Anto -- except Anto.

         15       Q.   No, I've heard about Anto.  You don't have to

         16  repeat it five times.  But the Prosecution asked you

         17  about Mirjan Santic.  I did not quite get this

         18  question, even though I believe I am quite familiar

         19  with the Croatian language, but you were asked whether

         20  you knew if Mirjan Santic was a member of the military

         21  police.  You gave an answer that I really could not

         22  fathom out.  Did you know that Mirjan Santic was among

         23  the military police, or didn't you?

         24       A.   First the gentleman did not ask me properly.

         25       Q.   No, you did not answer properly, so let us

Page 8775

          1  redress that, and I'm asking you if Mirjan Santic was a

          2  member of the military police or not.

          3       A.   I know that he was a member of the military

          4  police, but where he was and where he went, I don't

          5  know.

          6       Q.   Nobody asked you that.  All you were asked by

          7  the Prosecution was if he was a member of the military

          8  police.  They never asked you where he went or what he

          9  did.

         10            Then you also said that you went to your

         11  brother's because he was also a member of the gun team,

         12  and that you went to fetch him to Novi Travnik.  So on

         13  your way back from your brother, did he come along?

         14  Did your brother come along, or not?

         15       A.   No, he did not.

         16       Q.   What had you agreed with him regarding this?

         17       A.   Well, he had to stay over there because he

         18  lived in Novi Travnik.

         19       Q.   So do you know the first and last name of the

         20  person that you spent the night of the 18th of April,

         21  and where you watched this TV programme that you told

         22  us about today?  I mean, the name and the address?

         23       A.   Jako Bilic.

         24       Q.   And the address?

         25       A.   I only know it was in Pokrajcici.

Page 8776

          1       Q.   You don't know the number of the house?

          2       A.   I don't know.

          3       Q.   Do you know the area code?

          4       A.   I think it was Travnik, municipality of

          5  Travnik.  I'm not sure.

          6       Q.   Just one more thing:  As regards your gun,

          7  what else belonged to the gun, except for the gun

          8  itself?  Did you have any communications device?

          9       A.   No, I don't know.

         10       Q.   Did you have a radio?

         11       A.   Yes, we did.

         12       Q.   What kind of a radio?

         13       A.   What's it called -- the RUP 12.

         14       Q.   You didn't handle this radio, did you?

         15       A.   No, not really.

         16            MR. RADOVIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I

         17  have no further questions, and I believe that I did not

         18  overstep our regular working hours for too long.  Thank

         19  you.

         20            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes, thank you.

         21            I'm afraid I have one or two questions,

         22  however, if you don't mind, since you took three or

         23  four minutes.  Let me see whether I can, in one or two

         24  minutes, ask a few questions of the witness.

         25            First of all, Mr. Safradin, did you ever

Page 8777

          1  belong to the HVO, either in '92 or '93 or between '92

          2  and '93?  Because I didn't understand your answer to

          3  the Prosecutor very well.

          4       A.   I did not.

          5            JUDGE CASSESE:  But still, in your statement,

          6  you stated and you signed -- you stated, and I quote

          7  your words:  "I was a member of the HVO unit of

          8  June '92."  Probably you meant "since June'92."  How do

          9  you explain this contradiction?

         10            Leaving aside the HVO, when you were there in

         11  charge of this gun, which was the military unit to

         12  which you belonged?  There was some sort of military

         13  unit or military hierarchy to which -- organisation to

         14  which you belonged; which was this one?

         15       A.   In June 1992, there was no HVO at all.  At

         16  that time it was a Territorial Defence unit.

         17            JUDGE CASSESE:  And then in April '93?  At

         18  that stage, did you belong to the HVO?

         19       A.   No.

         20            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.  Now, tell me, you

         21  said that you saw this TV programme on the 18th of

         22  April.  How do you explain now, or how did you explain

         23  at that stage, on the 18th of April, that [redacted],

         24  as we saw a few minutes ago, in explaining what

         25  happened in Ahmici on the 16th of April, said

Page 8778

          1  "yesterday," so my inference would be that therefore

          2  this broadcast was made on the 17th of April.  It

          3  started off by saying "yesterday."  This is what we got

          4  in the English translation.  Meaning -- sorry,

          5  Mr. Radovic?

          6            MR. RADOVIC:  Mr. President, it did not have

          7  to be broadcast on television the very same day when

          8  the journalist interviewed him.  That would be an

          9  explanation.

         10            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes, of course.  Thank you.

         11  But that means that the shooting was done on the 17th,

         12  therefore.

         13            Now, my last question is about the 16th of

         14  April.  So you said you spent the whole day at home in

         15  Santici while a lot of shooting and shelling was going

         16  on nearby, at about one kilometre.  How did you spend

         17  the whole day?  Doing what, at home?

         18       A.   I didn't do anything.  I was simply at home,

         19  and ...

         20            JUDGE CASSESE:  But look, you were a military

         21  man, and you were not curious about what was happening

         22  nearby?  People shooting, you heard a lot of shelling

         23  and shooting, and you stayed at home without asking

         24  yourself about what was happening nearby?  I'm just

         25  asking what you decided to do, why you just simply

Page 8779

          1  stayed at home -- doing what?  Reading?

          2       A.   Well, I didn't know what was going on, but I

          3  was a member of the anti-aircraft defence, and I had to

          4  be there so that I could receive some information, and

          5  I didn't want to go back to the position in Prahulje

          6  before I had to.

          7            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.

          8            All right, I see that my colleagues don't

          9  have any questions for you.  Thank you, Mr. Safradin,

         10  for giving evidence.  You may now be released.

         11            And we adjourn now until tomorrow at 9.00.

         12                 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

         13                     1:35 p.m., to be reconvened on

         14                     Wednesday, the 24th day of March,

         15                     1999, at 9.00 a.m.