1. 1 Wednesday, 24th March, 1999

    2 (Open session)

    3 (The accused entered court)

    4 (The witness entered court)

    5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

    6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.

    7 Case number IT-95-16-T, the Prosecutor versus Zoran

    8 Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago

    9 Josipovic, Dragan Papic, and Vladimir Santic.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning.

    11 Before we hear this witness -- you may sit,

    12 you may sit -- before we hear the witness, I propose

    13 that we very quickly deal with two housekeeping matters

    14 at this point. First of all, the motion filed by

    15 Counsel Susak about the testimony of General Blaskic.

    16 I understand he is suggesting that we should admit into

    17 evidence the transcript for one or two hearings where

    18 General Blaskic testified. This is what you meant.

    19 Now, I wonder whether the Prosecutor could set out his


    21 Sorry, Counsel Susak would like -- very

    22 briefly, because -- yes.

    23 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, the point of this

    24 motion is only to get the transcript from the 25th of

    25 February, I think, 1993, and it relates to only one

  2. 1 segment, and, that is to say, a meeting between Blaskic

    2 and Ivica Santic and Pero Skopljak and Nikola

    3 Krizanovic. That is the only piece of information that

    4 I'm interested in, in view of the new facts which

    5 indicate that there was yet another meeting where Nenad

    6 Santic is mentioned, Ivica Vidovic nicknamed Jevco, and

    7 the others, and all of this in the house of Jozo

    8 Livancic. I believe that this is also an important

    9 point, so as to ascertain the actual state of affairs,

    10 and on this basis, that meeting could be judged as

    11 compared to the previous one. Thank you.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    13 Mr. Terrier?

    14 MR. TERRIER: Good morning, Mr. President.

    15 Good morning, Your Honours. Regarding Mr. Susak's

    16 motion, I think it is in the first place a matter of

    17 principle, and the Tribunal, regarding a similar

    18 motion, already took a negative decision, that is that

    19 the witness, whether the transcript of a particular

    20 witness could be admitted into evidence, could not be

    21 completely -- because the witness could not be

    22 completely interrogated by the parties. I think beyond

    23 this principle, the matter, beyond this principle, that

    24 is that we should always take the same decisions. I do

    25 believe that the truth needs to be established, and I

  3. 1 wish that this transcript be joined to the documents on

    2 the Tribunal. But I do not think we can take a

    3 fragment of testimony, and it should be the testimony

    4 in its entirety which should be included in the record;

    5 that is, the whole of this testimony, all the counts to

    6 which the Tribunal might be addressing.

    7 However, this particular case that we are

    8 talking about is not finished yet. It may yet be

    9 completed within the foreseeable future, but it is not

    10 yet. Therefore, we think that all of the dispositions

    11 and all the exhibits to which the witness may be

    12 referring should be added. I am referring both to the

    13 examination-in-chief and to the cross-examination of

    14 the witness.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: When you say "the whole of

    16 the testimony," do you mean the entire testimony of

    17 General Blaskic, or what?

    18 MR. TERRIER: I think it would be advisable

    19 that the context of the testimony be known, and it

    20 might be dangerous, or perhaps hazardous, or perhaps

    21 damaging, if only a fragment of this testimony were

    22 admitted by the Tribunal.

    23 (Trial Chamber deliberates)

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: The Trial Chamber is of the

    25 view that this testimony as such, the transcript of the

  4. 1 testimony given by General Blaskic on the 25th of

    2 February, cannot be admitted into evidence. Counsel

    3 Susak has a very easy way out, namely, simply to call

    4 General Blaskic to give evidence here in court after he

    5 has finished his testimony in the Blaskic case. Then

    6 he can be questioned about this specific issue and

    7 other issues relating to Ahmici.

    8 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, of course I

    9 understand what you say, but I'm seriously concerned.

    10 Why is the Prosecutor evading the date of the 15th of

    11 April at 22.00 hours, when this meeting was held, and

    12 this was on the eve of the conflict on the 16th? That

    13 is what I wish to say in this context, and we are going

    14 to decide whether we are going to call Blaskic as a

    15 witness.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Thank you.

    17 So therefore the motion is not granted, and

    18 the Trial Chamber has indicated how the Defence counsel

    19 for Josipovic could settle the matter by, as I say,

    20 calling General Blaskic.

    21 (Trial Chamber deliberates)

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: In addition, as Judge Mumba

    23 has just suggested to us, it is of course open to

    24 Counsel Susak to call the other persons who attended

    25 that meeting. You could call them to give evidence in

  5. 1 court in addition to Mr. Blaskic.

    2 All right. Now, to move quickly to the other

    3 question, I remember we left a question in abeyance,

    4 namely, when we should call the three Court witnesses

    5 that were mentioned a few days ago. I wonder whether

    6 Defence counsel have, possibly in consultation with the

    7 Prosecutor, come to some sort of agreement.

    8 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac, do you remember we

    9 discussed this issue of when we should call them?

    10 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, the

    11 Prosecutor said that any date would suit him. Since we

    12 are talking about two of our witnesses, we think it

    13 would be advisable to call them at the very beginning,

    14 that is to say, when the trial recommences in May. As

    15 far as we are concerned, they can be called then, but

    16 then I have another proposal related to Toma Alilovic.

    17 That is the witness who was supposed to testify today.

    18 He did not come. The Defence believes that he is quite

    19 an important witness because he was in the house with

    20 Jozo Alilovic on the 16th of April, and the witness who

    21 testified in this Court said in his statement, in

    22 response to the Prosecutor, that he saw Tomo Alilovic

    23 in the house as well. In his testimony, this witness

    24 says that Zoran and Mirjan Kupreskic came on that day,

    25 and we believe that this testimony would be very

  6. 1 important for us.

    2 However, the witness has not appeared, and we

    3 would like to suggest that this witness be called as a

    4 Court witness when the trial recommences in May. He is

    5 in Germany. If possible, we are going to submit this

    6 in writing, if you cannot rule this way. Thank you.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. As for the court

    8 witnesses, yes, we do intend to summon them for the 3rd

    9 of May. Actually, the three of them. Not only the two

    10 you just suggested but also the third one.

    11 As for Mr. Tomo Alilovic, you didn't explain

    12 why he is not coming, and so we don't see why he should

    13 be turned into a court witness.

    14 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: We do not even know why

    15 he's not coming. We have been in touch with him, and

    16 we've been asking him to come for quite some time now,

    17 and I think in a way he's been rejecting to do so. On

    18 the other hand, I think that in order to ascertain the

    19 factual state of affairs it is indispensable to have

    20 his testimony.

    21 What I'm trying to say is that he is avoiding

    22 to appear before the court. We do not have any

    23 information as to his incapacity to appear, but we

    24 think that in order to ascertain the material truth,

    25 that is to say, what actually happened on that day, his

  7. 1 statement is very important.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Now, we do appreciate that

    3 his statement is important. On the other hand, we

    4 don't want -- this practice which we started here of

    5 calling court witnesses should be -- lead to abuses.

    6 The more so because, as you may remember, we started

    7 off thinking of court witnesses for those people who,

    8 since they belonged to a particular ethnic group, were

    9 rather reluctant to come over if called by Defence

    10 counsel. So for the sake of safeguarding the rights of

    11 the Defence, we thought we should take over and call

    12 them as court witnesses. But as I say, in this

    13 particular case we don't see why we should take action

    14 as such.

    15 We could ask you to make inquiries and try to

    16 approach the witness or a potential witness and try to

    17 understand why he's not coming. If he refuses and

    18 gives you convincing reasons, you could probably ask

    19 the court to subpoena this witness. Since he's in

    20 Germany, we could issue a subpoena. But as I say, we

    21 don't want to turn him into a court witness.

    22 Therefore, for the 3rd of May, for that week

    23 starting on the 3rd of May, and we have five working

    24 days, we could hear the three court witnesses plus,

    25 hopefully, Mr. Tomo Alilovic, plus one or two witnesses

  8. 1 the Defence intend to call. Two more, yes. Yes, six

    2 or seven witnesses altogether.

    3 All right. We may now move on to our next

    4 witness. I think it is Mr. Fafulovic.

    5 Mr. Fafulovic, I'm sorry that you had to stay

    6 there while we were discussing procedural matters. Mr.

    7 Fafulovic, good morning. Would you please make the

    8 solemn declaration?

    9 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    10 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    11 truth.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may sit

    13 down.

    14 Counsel Radovic?


    16 Examined by Mr. Radovic:

    17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Fafulovic. First of all,

    18 would you please introduce yourself to the Court. That

    19 is to say, give your name, surname, your father's name,

    20 the date of your birth, and your address.

    21 A. Good morning. I am Fafulovic. I was born on

    22 the 20th of December, 1965 in Travnik. I live in

    23 Vitez, in a smaller village called Sofa, Kruscica.

    24 Q. Is there a house number?

    25 A. Yes, 69. My father's name is Mustafa.

  9. 1 Q. Tell me, how many brothers and sisters do you

    2 have?

    3 A. I have two brothers and a sister.

    4 Q. At the end of 1992 and the beginning of 1993,

    5 who did you live with? Who is your family?

    6 A. My family are my wife, my father, and

    7 daughter.

    8 Q. At the end of 1992 and the beginning of 1993,

    9 did you have a job? If you did, where?

    10 A. When? At the beginning of what?

    11 Q. At the end of 1992 and the beginning of 1993,

    12 did you have a job?

    13 A. Yes, I had a job. I worked in the work

    14 organisation Slobodan Princip Seljo in Vitez.

    15 Q. Until when?

    16 A. Until the outbreak of the conflict.

    17 Q. The first conflict or the second conflict?

    18 A. The last conflict, the 16th of April.

    19 Q. Tell me, what are you by religion?

    20 A. I'm a Muslim by religion and a Romany by

    21 ethnicity.

    22 Q. Do you know Zoran Kupreskic?

    23 A. Yes, I do.

    24 Q. Do you know Mirjan Kupreskic?

    25 A. Yes, I do.

  10. 1 Q. Where did you get to meet them?

    2 A. I met them while we were still working in

    3 this same work organisation where they worked too, but

    4 I got to know them better when I got involved in folk

    5 dancing in 1982.

    6 Q. Tell me, concerning this folklore, what

    7 position did they have?

    8 A. Zoran Kupreskic, he was a choreographer, he

    9 taught us how to dance. Mirjan played the accordion,

    10 and they also danced.

    11 Q. What was the ethnic composition of this

    12 folklore group?

    13 A. The ethnic composition of this group of ours

    14 was mixed. There were Muslims, Croats and Serbs.

    15 Q. Until when? Until when was the composition

    16 mixed?

    17 A. It was a mixed composition almost until the

    18 outbreak of the conflict.

    19 Q. Tell me, do you remember a performance at the

    20 beginning of 1993 on Bajram?

    21 A. Yes, I remember.

    22 Q. This was a performance in Mahala, in the

    23 Muslim settlement, on the occasion of the holiday of

    24 Bajram. Do you remember what you danced?

    25 A. We danced dances from all over the former

  11. 1 Yugoslavia.

    2 Q. Did you dance dances that belonged to the

    3 Muslim or Bosniak people?

    4 A. Yes, we did.

    5 Q. At that time, at the end of 1992 and the

    6 beginning of '93, did you ever see Zoran or Mirjan

    7 Kupreskic in military uniform?

    8 A. No, never.

    9 Q. Did you ever see them carrying weapons?

    10 A. No.

    11 Q. Tell me, when the war was over and when

    12 shares were being given out, did you get any shares?

    13 A. Yes, I did.

    14 Q. You got these shares as what? Were you a

    15 member of the HVO?

    16 A. I was in an HVO unit.

    17 Q. Did you have a uniform?

    18 A. We had uniforms belonging to the civilian

    19 defence.

    20 Q. Did any members of your family get killed

    21 during the war, injured?

    22 A. Yes. My brother, he lost his leg. He's 100

    23 per cent disabled. My father was wounded in both legs

    24 and in his right hand.

    25 Q. The village that you said that you live in is

  12. 1 predominantly populated by what population?

    2 A. It is mostly the Romany population.

    3 Q. Are you saying it's not Muslims, Bosniaks, or

    4 Croats, they're exclusively Romany?

    5 A. Yes. Well, more or less exclusively Romany.

    6 Q. The folklore group that Zoran and Mirjan

    7 Kupreskic belonged to, did it continue to operate after

    8 the war?

    9 A. Yes, it did, because I continued to dance as

    10 well.

    11 Q. Did they join a new society now?

    12 A. Yes. Now it is the Croatian cultural

    13 society, Napredak.

    14 Q. Tell me, how did this happen that you came to

    15 join this society? You're not a Croat, and how come

    16 you joined this cultural and arts society? At whose

    17 initiative did this happen, and could you describe all

    18 of this for us a bit?

    19 A. This was in 1994. Zoran sent me a message

    20 that I should come so that we could discuss something.

    21 When I came to rehearsal they had already started

    22 dancing, and I came and a colleague of mine, Delic

    23 Ahmed, who is not here, he also sent him a message to

    24 come, and when we came he asked whether we wanted to

    25 dance again, and we accepted this and we continued to

  13. 1 dance.

    2 Q. Tell me, Delic Ahmed, he's a Bosniak or a

    3 Romany?

    4 A. He's a Bosniak.

    5 Q. So Zoran tried to talk him to dance again as

    6 a Bosniak?

    7 A. Well, he didn't talk him into it because he

    8 simply made him an offer because he danced before the

    9 war too.

    10 Q. All right. So he did not talk him into it,

    11 but he just made him an offer and this one accepted; is

    12 that correct?

    13 A. Yes, that is correct.

    14 Q. Would you tell us, do you remember when you

    15 last saw Zoran before the outbreak of the war, if you

    16 remember?

    17 A. I can't remember, but this was probably at

    18 rehearsal, something like that.

    19 Q. You do not recall the date?

    20 A. No, I do not recall the date.

    21 Q. Tell me, what did you do a day before the war

    22 began?

    23 A. I was at work.

    24 Q. When?

    25 A. I used to work in the morning anyway, and I

  14. 1 came home at 3.00 p.m.

    2 Q. Tell me, how did you find out that the war

    3 broke out on the 16th?

    4 A. Well, I was at home. I was getting ready to

    5 go to work. In the morning the shooting started, so I

    6 knew that the war began. I knew that something was

    7 wrong. I was taken by surprise. It's as simple as

    8 that.

    9 Q. You said that you were mobilised in the civil

    10 defence. Did I understand you correctly?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Can you tell us whether you were mobilised in

    13 the civil defence immediately, on the day the war broke

    14 out, or a bit later?

    15 A. We were included later. When the war broke

    16 out, we were there in the village. For four or five

    17 days no one touched us. After that, since no one came,

    18 we stayed there. The Croat side was closer to us

    19 there.

    20 Q. Oh, so that is how you opted for the Croat

    21 side?

    22 A. Yes, we stayed there.

    23 Q. Tell me, how many days after the outbreak of

    24 the war were you included in the civilian defence?

    25 A. It was around the 20th, I think.

  15. 1 Q. Can you find your village on this map?

    2 A. I'll try, if I can.

    3 Q. All right. If you cannot orient yourself,

    4 then you're simply going to say so and we're going to

    5 give up on this exercise. Would you please get up and

    6 take the pointer that is somewhere around there, pull

    7 it out, and try to find this and show it to us?

    8 A. I think it's somewhere around here

    9 (indicating).

    10 Q. Could you please stand to the side a bit and

    11 show this to the Court? Is that where your village

    12 was, where you lived?

    13 A. (Indicating)

    14 Q. All right. Thank you. Tell me, when the war

    15 stopped and when you all met once again, did you also

    16 have guest performances outside Bosnia-Herzegovina with

    17 this folklore group?

    18 A. Yes. That is precisely why Zoran called us

    19 in, because there weren't enough members. He asked us

    20 to come, and he explained to us that night that we had

    21 to get ready, the entire group, I mean, because we were

    22 supposed to have several concerts in town and also

    23 elsewhere.

    24 Q. Where was this elsewhere?

    25 A. Elsewhere was in Switzerland and Zagreb.

  16. 1 Q. Did you go to Zagreb?

    2 A. Yes, we did.

    3 Q. Did you go to Switzerland?

    4 A. Yes, we did.

    5 Q. Yes, I know you did as a group, but you

    6 personally, did you go? Did you personally go?

    7 A. No, I personally did not go.

    8 Q. Why not?

    9 A. Well, very short notice was given, so we

    10 couldn't get all the documents we needed.

    11 Q. I see. Now, if you were to be asked about

    12 the attitude of Mirjan and Zoran Kupreskic towards

    13 persons of a different ethnicity, what would you say?

    14 Were they persons who hated Muslims, who did not want

    15 to have anything to do with Muslims, or were they of a

    16 different orientation, so to speak?

    17 A. I think that they were always the same. They

    18 never made any difference between us as a group and

    19 others in terms of ethnicity. I think that telling

    20 proof of this is the fact that he called me and this

    21 other colleague of mine, Ahmed Delic, to continue

    22 dancing.

    23 As far as Mirjan is concerned, at rehearsals,

    24 during the break he would play Muslim, and Serb, and

    25 Croat dances, and then we would dance to that music in

  17. 1 order to get going.

    2 Q. Did you perform during the war?

    3 A. No, we did not.

    4 Q. So the Serb and Muslim music was only used to

    5 get ready for the actual rehearsal; is that right?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, thank you very

    8 much. I have no further questions. I do not think

    9 there were too many questions.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I assume there

    11 are no other Defence counsel wanting to question the

    12 witness.

    13 Mr. Terrier?

    14 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.

    15 Several questions, not very many.

    16 Cross-examined by Mr. Terrier:

    17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Fafulovic. My name is

    18 Franck Terrier, and I'm counsel for the Prosecution,

    19 and I should like to ask you some questions regarding

    20 your testimony.

    21 You told us that you were a member of the

    22 Romany community. Could you please tell us if this

    23 affiliation entailed any consequences in the

    24 municipality of Vitez that we are concerned with, that

    25 is, in '92, '93. I mean socially, or with regard to

  18. 1 employment, or perhaps politically. I am not asking

    2 you with regard to the accused. I'm asking you about

    3 the life, about the public and political life in the

    4 municipality of Vitez at the time. Did your particular

    5 affiliation entail any consequences?

    6 A. Not really, socially speaking. I was

    7 employed with that army company, Slobodan Princip

    8 Seljo, you know that, and the important thing was to

    9 have money so I have some means of livelihood. As for

    10 politics, we're not really much concerned with it. I

    11 mean, the Romany generally are not interested in it.

    12 Q. Could you please tell us if, during the

    13 conflict which broke out between the Muslim and the

    14 Croat community towards the end of '92 and the

    15 beginning of 1993, did the Romany community take part

    16 or, rather, did it opt for one side or the other, or

    17 what did it do?

    18 A. What do you mean? Was it neutral? I do not

    19 understand the question.

    20 Q. I'm asking you simply this: In the conflict

    21 which broke out in 1992 and 1993, did you and other

    22 members of your community take sides? Did you support

    23 one or the other?

    24 A. Yes, we did. We joined the Croatian army

    25 since we were there.

  19. 1 Q. Were you a member of the JNA?

    2 A. Yes, I was.

    3 Q. Were you a member of the Bosnian army?

    4 A. I was a member of the Territorial Defence

    5 during the conflict with the Serbs.

    6 Q. Until when?

    7 A. Until the beginning of the conflict.

    8 Q. When do you think -- could you tell us the

    9 date when, to your mind, the conflict began?

    10 A. With Muslims?

    11 Q. Yes, I understood that that was what you

    12 meant by "the conflict." Do you know the date? You

    13 told us that you remained a member of the Territorial

    14 Defence until the beginning of the conflict, so could

    15 you please tell us, when did the conflict begin?

    16 A. On the 16th of April, until the conflict with

    17 the Muslims.

    18 Q. And what did your activities until the 16th

    19 of April involve?

    20 A. What do you mean?

    21 Q. What were your activities? What did you do

    22 on the 16th of April and the following days?

    23 A. On the 15th of April, as I told you, I was

    24 working, and I am a cook, a qualified cook, and I

    25 worked as a cook. On the 16th, I was at home already.

  20. 1 Q. And what happened? Did something happen that

    2 day, in your view?

    3 A. Yes, of course it did.

    4 Q. Will you please tell us in a few words, what

    5 was it that happened?

    6 A. Well, that was in the morning, and I was

    7 getting ready to go to work, and suddenly I heard a

    8 whiz of shells, and bullets fired from rifles, and

    9 things like that.

    10 Q. And what else do you remember of that day,

    11 the 16th of April?

    12 A. Well, we were then all at home, that is, in

    13 our locality. Nobody went out at all. We stayed in

    14 until Croatian soldiers came, and they requested that

    15 we stay there.

    16 Q. And did you stay there?

    17 A. Yes, we agreed to.

    18 Q. Did that mean that you sided with one side?

    19 A. Well, we had to accept one side. The Muslims

    20 did not come first. These came the first, so we sided

    21 with them. We spent some five or six days at home, and

    22 we were there and nobody laid a finger on us, so we

    23 accepted or cooperated with them.

    24 Q. You are not saying that you were forced to

    25 cooperate with the Croats. Does that mean that you

  21. 1 were detained on the 16th of April?

    2 A. No, we were simply there. The circumstances

    3 were such it was between the Croat and the Muslim

    4 side. That is important. Because of our safety, they

    5 came, and we accepted them because we are right

    6 between -- in between the Muslims and the -- between

    7 the Muslims and Croats. That is where the -- how shall

    8 I call it -- the demarcation line is.

    9 Q. What happened in the hours that followed this

    10 contact with the HVO, or the following days? I'm

    11 referring to you personally. What did you do?

    12 A. Well, we agreed to everything. We were at

    13 home in the house, I and two brothers and father and my

    14 uncle and my aunt. We talked there, and we reached an

    15 agreement, and we accepted, like the majority of others

    16 who were in the village there.

    17 Q. Mr. Fafulovic, I don't quite understand.

    18 What did you accept, you and the members of your

    19 family? Could you tell us what it is that you agreed

    20 to?

    21 A. Well, we agreed to come under the Croat army

    22 because they were the only ones who offered us

    23 protection and safety, so we agreed to be with them

    24 there.

    25 Q. Right, and in practical terms, what did it

  22. 1 mean to be with them? What did you do?

    2 A. You mean during the conflict?

    3 Q. On that day and in the days that followed.

    4 A. Well, that day, we were there, indoors, and

    5 the next day we moved a bit higher up. That is, we

    6 were not in our village. We pulled out to a higher

    7 place, to a hill, and that is where we practically

    8 spent almost the whole war. We were also accommodated

    9 in houses there.

    10 Q. What did you do there in the course of the

    11 war?

    12 A. We were mobilised, and I was a member of a

    13 labour platoon. Not only me, I mean, everybody else

    14 too.

    15 Q. Could you please explain to us, what is a

    16 labour platoon?

    17 A. Well, a labour platoon is -- it was made of

    18 several of us, not only Romany. There were also Croats

    19 who were digging trenches and cross-trenches.

    20 Q. Right. Mr. Fafulovic, can I then sum up your

    21 testimony correctly if I say that on the 16th of April,

    22 you were approached by the HVO forces who asked you to

    23 join them, you agreed to -- I don't know whether you

    24 agreed of your own free-will or not, at any rate, but

    25 you joined them and then you were sent to dig the

  23. 1 trenches?

    2 A. Roughly, yes.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic?

    4 MR. RADOVIC: My learned friend is

    5 insinuating something to the witness which he did not

    6 say. He said that on the 16th, they contacted the

    7 witness. He did not say they were contacted by the HVO

    8 on the 16th of April, but later, five or six days

    9 later, said the witness.

    10 So will you please not lead the witness, but

    11 remember what he said. Thank you.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: But the Prosecution asked a

    13 question. He asked the witness to say if that was so,

    14 whether this was what he said, whether it reflected the

    15 truth, and it is up to the witness to say "yes" or

    16 "no." I think that nobody was forcing the hand of the

    17 witness.

    18 MR. TERRIER: I was about to ask the

    19 question, yes. I shall rephrase my question.

    20 Q. On which date, Mr. Fafulovic -- you must have

    21 already told us, but I'm asking you to repeat it -- on

    22 what date, exactly, were you contacted by the HVO

    23 forces which asked you to join them?

    24 A. I cannot remember the exact date, but it must

    25 have been five or six days after the conflict broke

  24. 1 out, but we were mostly -- all of the time we spent in

    2 the village, and nobody came.

    3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Fafulovic.

    4 MR. TERRIER: I have no further questions,

    5 Mr. President.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    7 Counsel Radovic?

    8 MR. RADOVIC: Only one question.

    9 Re-examined by Mr. Radovic:

    10 Q. When you spoke about fighting, that is about

    11 the 16th of April, could you please describe the

    12 fighting to us. Was it heavy fighting? Or if you did

    13 not see it, was it intense fire, or what? In one

    14 sentence.

    15 A. Well, it was early in the morning, more or

    16 less. First, one heard guns two or three times, and it

    17 was mostly bullets fired from rifles.

    18 Q. Did the fire come only from one side or was

    19 there shooting from various sides?

    20 A. Well, I could not really tell because I was

    21 indoors.

    22 Q. All right. Thank you.

    23 MR. RADOVIC: No further questions.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    25 I have a question for the witness.

  25. 1 Mr. Fafulovic, you said that you saw, on many

    2 occasions, Zoran and Mirjan Kupreskic. My question is

    3 as follows. On what occasions would you usually meet

    4 Zoran and Mirjan Kupreskic? What sort of occasions?

    5 Simply when you went to the folklore group? Or other

    6 occasions, say, at work, or in the street, or -- could

    7 you tell us?

    8 A. Well, it was mostly at work, and folklore,

    9 when we danced. Then we socialised in coffee pubs and

    10 things like that.

    11 Q. Did you ever see them or talk with them in

    12 Ahmici?

    13 A. No, never.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Therefore, where do you

    15 normally meet them? You said at work or a folklore

    16 group, and where was it? In what particular locality?

    17 A. It was mostly in the company where I worked

    18 because I was a cook there. So during lunchtime, when

    19 I would distribute lunch, they would come to have

    20 lunch, and folklore, when we danced, in the cinema hall

    21 in Vitez.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. All right. Thank

    23 you so much for testifying, and you may now be

    24 released. Thank you.

    25 A. Thank you.

  26. 1 (The witness withdrew)

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: I understand we are going to

    3 hear Mr. Veljko Kato (sic)? Yes? Cato. Cato.

    4 Because now you didn't put the accent. I

    5 mean, this is your fault. I remember you insisted so

    6 much when the Prosecutor produced these documents, and

    7 now we never find these wonderful accents so we can

    8 understand whether you say "Kato" or "Cato."

    9 (The witness entered court)

    10 Anyway, good morning, Mr. Cato. Would you

    11 please make the solemn declaration.

    12 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    14 truth.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may sit

    16 down.

    17 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac?

    18 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you, Your

    19 Lordship.


    21 Examined by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac:

    22 Q. Good morning, Mr. Cato. Are you comfortable,

    23 and are your earphones all right?

    24 Will you please tell us your name?

    25 A. My name is Veljko Cato. I was born on the

  27. 1 24th of July, 1960, in Vitez. I'm a Serb by ethnic

    2 origin. I was born in Vitez, and I've lived in Vitez

    3 all my life.

    4 Q. What is your address? Where do you reside?

    5 A. Hrvatske Mladosti 45.

    6 Q. Tell us, what did you do in 1992? That is,

    7 rather, where did you work, and what were you at that

    8 time?

    9 A. In 1992, I worked as a head salesman in the

    10 furniture store in Vitez.

    11 Q. Until when did you work there?

    12 A. I worked there until August '92.

    13 Q. What did you do after that, and why did you

    14 stop working there?

    15 A. After that, I asked for my -- I went on a

    16 holiday, but I had to report to the company so they

    17 could keep a record.

    18 Q. So, actually, you were laid off?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Why were you laid off? What happened to that

    21 store of yours?

    22 A. Because in the warehouse of my company, they

    23 now placed humanitarian relief and medicines that were

    24 brought, so all the storage space we had was used for

    25 that.

  28. 1 Q. So those were medicines, donated medicines?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. These medical supplies, they were used for

    4 all ethnic groups and all structures in Vitez; is that

    5 so?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. So as this humanitarian relief was stored in

    8 your store. Were you then included in some

    9 organisation?

    10 A. Yes. I was included in the civil defence,

    11 the Territorial Defence, because I had the keys to the

    12 store.

    13 Q. Did the Territorial Defence pay your salary?

    14 A. Yes, on one occasion.

    15 Q. After that who paid you?

    16 A. After that my company continued paying out my

    17 salary because I was still their employee.

    18 Q. Could you tell us specifically when you

    19 received your salary from the Territorial Defence? Was

    20 it when it finally fell -- that is, when the Croats

    21 left the Territorial Defence in October or November?

    22 A. No, no. It was earlier than that. I believe

    23 it was September. I do not remember exactly, but I do

    24 think it was September.

    25 Q. That job which had to do with the control of

  29. 1 those medicines, that is something that you did until

    2 the beginning of the war; is that so?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. What did you do then when the war began?

    5 A. When the war began, well, then I was not

    6 working for my company any more.

    7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel speak

    8 up? We cannot hear her.

    9 A. When the war began I was with the first aid.

    10 Q. What did you do there?

    11 A. I was a driver. I drove a vehicle.

    12 Q. So you were incorporated in the medical

    13 service; is that so?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Until when?

    16 A. Until -- I don't remember exactly but it must

    17 have been July of 1993.

    18 Q. What did you do then?

    19 A. Then I was incorporated in the HVO.

    20 Q. You were on the front line?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. As a soldier?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. You can say what you like. I do not really

    25 have to ask you everything, so you can say whatever you

  30. 1 like.

    2 Tell us, since you were of Serb ethnic

    3 origin, did you have any problems in this regard after

    4 the elections, say, that is, since late 1990 until the

    5 conflict broke out?

    6 A. No, I did not have any problems.

    7 Q. Were there any problems concerning the Serb

    8 ethnicity in the territory of the municipality of

    9 Vitez?

    10 A. No, there were no problems.

    11 Q. What happened in Tolovici, in the village of

    12 Tolovici?

    13 A. In the village of Tolovici? I don't recall

    14 exactly whether -- I don't remember if there was a

    15 conflict, but the Serbs left Tolovici in 1992.

    16 Q. Do you know who they clashed with, I mean,

    17 Serbs from Tolovici?

    18 A. Serbs from Tolovici had a conflict with

    19 Muslims.

    20 Q. That village was completely evacuated. The

    21 Serbs fled and left the village?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Were there any other areas around Vitez that

    24 you know have been abandoned by Serbs under the Muslim

    25 pressure?

  31. 1 A. No, there were no other areas.

    2 Q. What were you doing on the 15th of April,

    3 1993?

    4 A. On the 15th of April, '93, I went to report

    5 to my company and then, together with Zdravko Vrebac, I

    6 dropped by the store where Mirjan Kupreskic worked.

    7 Q. Where is that shop?

    8 A. That shop is in the building belonging to

    9 Vucjak, in the southern part of the town.

    10 Q. When did you get there and how long did you

    11 stay there?

    12 A. We got there around 12.00 and stayed there

    13 until about 3.00, except that Zdravko Vrebac purchased

    14 things for his shop straightaway and went back

    15 immediately.

    16 Q. What did Zdravko Vrebac have?

    17 A. At that time, Zdravko Vrebac had a coffee bar

    18 called Set.

    19 Q. Who did you find in that store?

    20 A. In that store we found Ivo Grabovac, Gavro

    21 Mujcibabic, and Batric Krgovic.

    22 Q. What happened then? Did you talk? Did you

    23 sit down?

    24 A. Then we moved to a part -- to the storage

    25 space there, and we had a couple of drinks and talked.

  32. 1 Q. Did you talk politics, political tension,

    2 political problems in Vitez?

    3 A. No, we did not discuss politics or the

    4 political situation in Vitez. We simply told jokes and

    5 things like that.

    6 Q. After that day, did you see Zoran and Mirjan

    7 Kupreskic?

    8 A. No. No, I did not see them.

    9 Q. Did Mirjan Kupreskic go on working after the

    10 cease-fire of 1994?

    11 A. Yes, he did.

    12 Q. Do you remember the month?

    13 A. Mirjan Kupreskic began to work some 10 days

    14 or 15 days after the cease-fire.

    15 Q. As what? Do you know where he worked?

    16 A. Same job which he held before, that is, in

    17 the Vucjak building.

    18 Q. Do you know if he worked there without

    19 interruption, that is, throughout '94, '95, '96?

    20 A. Yes, he did work there without interruption.

    21 Q. Do you know where Zoran Kupreskic worked, and

    22 when did he resume working there? Did you see him?

    23 A. Zoran Kupreskic went on working -- resumed,

    24 continued working immediately after the conflict,

    25 perhaps a month or so later, and he worked up there at

  33. 1 Vitezit.

    2 Q. When did you meet Zoran and Mirjan

    3 Kupreskic? How long have you known them?

    4 A. Zoran Kupreskic, I met in 1978, when the

    5 cultural folklore society, Slobodan Princip Seljo, was

    6 founded. Mirjan Kupreskic, I met in 1982 when he came

    7 back from school and joined the cultural folklore

    8 society Slobodan Princip Seljo.

    9 Q. Where did Mirjan Kupreskic attend school?

    10 A. Mirjan Kupreskic attended school in Trstenik,

    11 in Serbia.

    12 Q. Do you remember who was the chairman of that

    13 cultural folklore society, SPS?

    14 A. Their last -- the President of the cultural

    15 society was Senad Besic, and the last chairman of the

    16 society was Zaid Hidic.

    17 Q. These two persons, Senad Besic and Zaid

    18 Hidic, are they Muslims or Croats?

    19 A. They're Muslims.

    20 Q. When was the name of the society changed?

    21 Why was it done and when were other societies set up in

    22 Vitez?

    23 A. After the elections, the cultural society,

    24 Slobodan Princip Seljo, was renamed the City Cultural

    25 Folklore Company.

  34. 1 Q. Were there some other companies after the --

    2 were they set up after the elections?

    3 A. After the elections in Vitez, we had

    4 Preporod, the Muslim cultural folklore company, and the

    5 Croat one called Napredak.

    6 Q. What was the difference between them?

    7 A. Well, the difference was that the Napredak

    8 Croat cultural company included members of the Croat

    9 people. Preporod brought together members of the

    10 Muslim people, and the town cultural company of Vitez

    11 remained mixed.

    12 Q. In other words, these were mono-ethnic

    13 companies exclusively, that is, the Croat one, that is,

    14 the Muslim one?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Tell us, how did the people in this cultural

    17 society of yours socialise? You came there for

    18 rehearsals, and did you see them apart from these

    19 rehearsals?

    20 A. Yes. We would see each other after the

    21 rehearsals. We would socialise. We went to each

    22 other's homes when our children had birthdays and on

    23 all other occasions.

    24 Q. Did you celebrate your national holidays

    25 together?

  35. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Did you attend weddings? Were there any

    3 mixed marriages within the society?

    4 A. Yes. Yes, there were mixed marriages within

    5 the society. Nevzudin Ahmic married Vesna Pavlovic.

    6 Zoran Kupreskic married a girl who danced in our

    7 society too. There were marriages there among the

    8 dancers.

    9 Q. Did you call on one another over the

    10 holidays?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Do you recall where you were for Bajram in

    13 1993, and with whom?

    14 A. Bajram 1993? Zoran Kupreskic, with his wife

    15 Mira Kupreskic; Mirjan, with his wife Ljubica; and I

    16 with my wife Lenka. We all went to Mustafa Dzidic's

    17 for Bajram in Mahala.

    18 Q. Mustafa Dzidic is a Muslim; is that right?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Tell me, did you go to each other's homes?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Did you attend each other's weddings, and

    23 were you best men at each other's weddings, and

    24 godfather's to children and things like that?

    25 A. Yes. When Ljubica, Mirjan Kupreskic's wife,

  36. 1 was supposed to have her first baby, Mirjan Kupreskic

    2 told me that if he would get a son that I would be his

    3 godfather, and that if he had a daughter, that my

    4 mother -- daughter would be the godmother. Since the

    5 first baby was a girl then my wife was the baby's

    6 godmother.

    7 Q. What did you think about this offer? What

    8 did it seem like to you?

    9 A. I was pleased by the offer because godparents

    10 are supposed to be friends, good friends, but there was

    11 something strange about it because I am a member of the

    12 Orthodox Church and I was supposed to be godparent in a

    13 Catholic church, and that was a kind gesture by Mirjan

    14 Kupreskic. When he said, "We'll take care of all of

    15 that. The important thing is that we are good

    16 friends."

    17 Q. All right. Tell us, you've known Zoran and

    18 Mirjan Kupreskic for about 20 years. Can you tell us

    19 what kind of people they are?

    20 A. Yes, I've known them for about 20 years.

    21 They're very honest, family men, people who are always

    22 ready to help others.

    23 Q. What were they interested in? What were they

    24 involved in?

    25 A. They were mostly interested in folklore, in

  37. 1 dancing, and in socialising. Mirjan Kupreskic also

    2 played in restaurants and at weddings. That is to say,

    3 they were only interested in music, dance, and

    4 socialising.

    5 Q. Can you tell us what their attitude was

    6 towards the members of other nationalities, other

    7 ethnic groups? The way that Mirjan Kupreskic behaved

    8 to you, is that the way the two of them behaved towards

    9 the Muslims as well?

    10 A. Their attitude was the same towards Muslims

    11 and all others. Mirjan Kupreskic's best man was also a

    12 Serb.

    13 Q. Do you know the persons who they were close

    14 to from the Muslim community?

    15 A. They were close with Fahran Ahmic, who played

    16 the drums in our society, and all the others who danced

    17 there.

    18 Q. Tell us one more thing. Until the war, you

    19 were involved in folklore. How often did you have

    20 rehearsals, how many times a week?

    21 A. Twice a week we had rehearsals, and if we

    22 were supposed to go out for a guest performance then we

    23 would have more rehearsals than that.

    24 Q. Did you perform and rehearse all the way up

    25 to the outbreak of the conflict, the 16th of April,

  38. 1 1993?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Do you know when Zoran and Mirjan started

    4 playing and dancing at the folklore group again after

    5 the war?

    6 A. We got together immediately after the

    7 cease-fire, after the conflict.

    8 Q. Who got together there, this cultural

    9 society?

    10 A. Again, we had the core of the old dancers

    11 there with us, Croats, Serbs, Muslims, Romany, and all

    12 of those who wanted to continue working.

    13 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Very well. Thank you.

    14 I have concluded.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I assume there

    16 now is cross-examination by the Defence counsel.

    17 Mr. Blaxill?

    18 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Mr. President, Your

    19 Honours. Good morning, counsel.

    20 Cross-examined by Mr. Blaxill:

    21 Q. Good morning to you, Mr. Cato. My name is

    22 Michael Blaxill. I'm one of the Prosecution attorneys

    23 assigned to this case, and I have just, literally, a

    24 handful of questions to ask you, if I may.

    25 On the 15th of April, 1993, did you see

  39. 1 Mr. Zoran Kupreskic at all?

    2 A. In 1993, I did not see Zoran Kupreskic.

    3 Q. On that day, you said that you did see

    4 Mr. Mirjan Kupreskic, and you left Mirjan's place of

    5 work at about 3.00 in the afternoon; is that correct?

    6 A. On that day I saw Mirjan Kupreskic, and we

    7 were together about two to three hours.

    8 Q. I believe you said that you left there about

    9 3.00 in the afternoon, and Mirjan Kupreskic stayed on

    10 at his place of work; is that right?

    11 A. I left the shop around 3.00, and Mirjan

    12 Kupreskic stayed at his place of work.

    13 Q. The next day, the 16th of April, 1993, can

    14 you tell us where you were, please, sir?

    15 A. On the 16th, I was at my home.

    16 Q. Did you see either Mr. Zoran or Mr. Mirjan

    17 Kupreskic during that day, the 16th of April, 1993?

    18 A. I did not see them.

    19 Q. Did you see either of them on the following

    20 day, the 17th of April of 1993?

    21 A. On the 17th of April, 1993, I didn't see

    22 either Mirjan or Zoran.

    23 Q. Do you remember when was the next time you

    24 did, in fact, see Mr. Mirjan Kupreskic?

    25 A. The next time I saw Zoran and Mirjan

  40. 1 Kupreskic was about a month or a month and a half

    2 later.

    3 Q. You said that for a period of time you worked

    4 in first aid, in driving for medical aid; is that

    5 correct?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Could you tell me who organised your work, or

    8 who commanded the sort of unit you worked for of

    9 medical-aid drivers?

    10 A. Medical-aid drivers had their work organised

    11 by the Territorial Defence.

    12 Q. Do you know the person within that

    13 Territorial Defence who had that responsibility? Do

    14 you know the name?

    15 A. I do not recall the name.

    16 Q. I believe from about July 1993 you were then

    17 engaged in fighting on the front line; is that correct,

    18 sir?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. How long did you remain as a soldier at the

    21 front lines?

    22 A. I was not a soldier at the front line. I was

    23 there at home. I was on the line at my home until the

    24 cease-fire in February.

    25 Q. During your period of being thus deployed at

  41. 1 your home in the defence of your home territory, do you

    2 recall seeing Mr. Zoran or Mr. Mirjan Kupreskic at all?

    3 A. I remember seeing them then because I went to

    4 see them when their father died.

    5 Q. Did you have any form of regular contact with

    6 them during that period, or was that just the one

    7 occasion?

    8 A. That was the one occasion when I went. We

    9 did not have any contact.

    10 Q. I'm obliged. Thank you, sir.

    11 MR. BLAXILL: I have no further questions,

    12 Mr. President. Thank you.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    14 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac?

    15 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you,

    16 Mr. President.

    17 Re-examined by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac:

    18 Q. Mr. Cato, tell us why people did not go to

    19 Ahmici often during the war and why people from Pirici

    20 and Santici didn't go to Vitez very often. What was

    21 the situation like there?

    22 A. The situation was such that one could not

    23 pass that way. There were war operations going on,

    24 there were snipers, and the road was not passable. So

    25 when one went, one had to go on foot, taking another

  42. 1 road.

    2 Q. Do you recall where the actual front line was

    3 in Ahmici -- or rather in Pirici and Santici? Was it

    4 close to the village?

    5 A. I do not recall, but I think it was close to

    6 the village.

    7 Q. Thank you.

    8 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: We don't have any questions

    10 for the witness.

    11 Mr. Cato, thank you for testifying. You may

    12 now be released.

    13 (The witness withdrew)

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Let us call the next witness,

    15 Marko Martinovic.

    16 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honours, if I may

    17 interpose for a moment, I do have an observation in

    18 relation to this next witness. The Prosecution have

    19 not been provided with any form of summary relating to

    20 the potential evidence of the witness, and as I recall

    21 the general terms of agreement some time ago, when my

    22 learned friend, Mr. Terrier, was dealing with the

    23 Defence directly about this issue, essentially we said

    24 that we would not insist on such statements or

    25 summaries primarily for character witnesses.

  43. 1 I am just wondering whether, therefore, my

    2 learned friends would be in a position to confirm that,

    3 as there has been no summary delivered, is the evidence

    4 of Mr. Marko Martinovic to be restricted purely to

    5 issues of character, and indeed within that context?

    6 We have heard the word "character" used in a different

    7 context, as to propensity for conduct, but I mean

    8 genuine character witness. Perhaps that could be

    9 clarified because, obviously, I would have an objection

    10 to proceeding without summary if that is not so.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    12 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac?

    13 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Your Honours, we told

    14 Mr. Terrier earlier on that this was a character

    15 witness only. We hadn't even talked to this witness

    16 earlier ourselves. We simply brought him in to say

    17 what he thought about these men because he knew them

    18 well. So our colleague, Mr. Terrier, agreed on that

    19 occasion with this, so he did not insist on a summary.

    20 But we have another problem because our next

    21 witness will be coming in at 10.30, so please, could we

    22 have the break now and then have him testify after that

    23 because he will be coming in at 10.30, and then we can

    24 continue.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. When you speak of

  44. 1 the next witness, are you thinking of Marko

    2 Martinovic?


    4 JUDGE CASSESE: He is not around? He is not

    5 here?

    6 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: He is not.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. We will take the

    8 usual 30-minute break now.

    9 --- Recess taken at 10.20 a.m.

    10 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

    11 (The witness entered court)

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning,

    13 Mr. Martinovic. Could you please stand and make the

    14 solemn declaration.

    15 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    17 truth.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may sit

    19 down.

    20 Counsel Radovic?

    21 MR. RADOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.


    23 Examined by Mr. Radovic:

    24 Q. Mr. Martinovic, we have all woken up, so we

    25 can begin, can we?

  45. 1 A. We can.

    2 Q. Would you please introduce yourself to the

    3 Court first, that is to say, your name, surname, your

    4 father's name, your date of birth, and your address?

    5 A. I'm Marko Martinovic. I'm a writer. I was

    6 born on the 8th of March, 1933. My father's name is

    7 Ivo. I was born in Travnik, and I now live in Vitez.

    8 Q. You said that you were a writer. Are you a

    9 member of a writer's association or something?

    10 A. Yes, I'm a member of two associations. I'm a

    11 member of the Writer's Association of Croatia.

    12 Q. And the other one?

    13 A. The other one is of Herceg-Bosna, the

    14 Association of Writers of Herceg-Bosna.

    15 Q. Tell me, as a writer, what kind of literature

    16 have you been writing?

    17 A. I've mostly been writing short stories. I've

    18 written poetry too. I've also written essays. I was

    19 also involved in journalism.

    20 Q. So these features, reports, and journalism,

    21 do you consider that to be journalism for newspapers

    22 only or for the electronic media as well?

    23 A. I mostly worked for newspapers, and I also

    24 worked for a local TV station and made reports for

    25 them.

  46. 1 Q. These reports and these newspapers that you

    2 worked for, were you also active in 1992, and before

    3 the war, in 1993, and after the war broke out?

    4 A. Well, you know, I also worked in the post

    5 office, and I also worked as a journalist. I wrote

    6 about culture, and I recorded interesting people in

    7 villages and interesting crafts and arts that were

    8 dying out. I also made some amusing shows,

    9 entertainment, where we all talked to each other

    10 nicely, Muslims, Croats, Serbs.

    11 Q. So tell me, in your reports and in your

    12 literary work, did you advocate any political views or

    13 did you write neutrally in terms of politics?

    14 A. I never advocated any political views,

    15 naturally, except if something was more in the interest

    16 of the Croat people. I do not have such stories,

    17 reports, or any writings that would fan hatred.

    18 After the war, I got a golden prize in Zagreb

    19 for a book of short stories that was published, and

    20 also the reviews published were very flattering, and

    21 they emphasised my goodness, my humanism. I also heard

    22 Muslims say that they liked the book. Although I

    23 talked a bit about the war, I talked about the

    24 cease-fire more, and attempts made to have a

    25 cease-fire.

  47. 1 Q. To have a reconciliation?

    2 A. Yes, to have a reconciliation too. The name

    3 of the book is "Jesus in the Basement."

    4 Q. It's a pretentious title, isn't it?

    5 A. Well, yes. I spent a lot of time in the

    6 basement too.

    7 Q. Tell me, do you know Zoran and Mirjan

    8 Kupreskic?

    9 A. Yes, I know Zoran and Mirjan Kupreskic. I've

    10 known them for a long time.

    11 Q. Where did you meet them?

    12 A. I met them as people who were involved in

    13 cultural activities. They were involved in the

    14 cultural society of Slobodan Princip Seljo. They

    15 played and danced there. Then in '91, after the

    16 elections -- I don't know what year this was -- it was

    17 chained into the society of -- the town society.

    18 Q. In this cultural and art society, Slobodan

    19 Princip Seljo, was this a mono-ethnic society or a

    20 multi-ethnic society?

    21 A. Slobodan Princip Seljo was a multi-ethnic

    22 society.

    23 Q. When they sang and danced, was it only songs

    24 and dances of one ethnic group, or all the nations and

    25 nationalities of the former Yugoslavia?

  48. 1 A. They played and danced everything from

    2 Macedonia to Slovenia, and they also wore national

    3 costumes from Slavonia, from Sumarija, Serbia, and

    4 also --

    5 Q. Did they ever wear a fez?

    6 A. Yes. That's this Bosniak costume with a

    7 fez.

    8 Q. After the elections in 1991, did you join

    9 political developments in Vitez in any way? I'm not

    10 asking about culture. I'm asking you about politics.

    11 A. I was never involved in politics but, as I

    12 said, until the present day, I have not been a member

    13 of any political party, but I'm one of the founders of

    14 the Croatian cultural society called Napredak. As soon

    15 as it was founded in 1991 or, rather, it existed even

    16 before that but it was banned.

    17 Q. When did it exist, until when?

    18 A. Well, you know what? I'll try to give some

    19 brief information about this. In 1902, this cultural

    20 society was founded.

    21 Q. You mean in the days of Austro-Hungary?

    22 A. Yes. At that time, there were four cultural

    23 societies, one of the Jews, one of the Muslims, one of

    24 the Croats, and one of the Serbs, and that's the way it

    25 was until 1948 when all of these societies were

  49. 1 abolished, that is to say, all of those that belonged

    2 to an ethnic group. Naturally, after the elections,

    3 these societies were renewed, that is to say, these

    4 ethnic societies.

    5 Q. Do you know who are the people who renewed in

    6 Napredak in 1991?

    7 A. Of course I know. I did, and Franjo

    8 Kurevija, Fra Bozo Blazevic, Zdravko Pavlovic. There

    9 were quite a few of us. We had an initiative

    10 committee, and I thought that in that way one could

    11 strive for one's interests and one culture and not by

    12 weapons.

    13 Q. Did I understand you correctly that you were

    14 one of the co-founders of this renewed cultural society

    15 of Napredak?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. As one of the refounders, you weren't really

    18 a founder because it was first founded in 1902. Did

    19 you have any contacts with Mirjan and Zoran Kupreskic?

    20 A. Yes, I did. Yes, I did, on several occasion.

    21 Q. With Zoran or with Mirjan?

    22 A. With both, one and the other.

    23 Q. All right.

    24 A. I tried to get them to come to Napredak.

    25 Q. Why?

  50. 1 A. Because they were true masters, and we needed

    2 choreographers, and musicians, and dancers. As the

    3 cultural and art society of Napredak, we did not have

    4 people of this kind. Although, that is not the only

    5 point, to have folklore, but we're also supposed to

    6 publish books and to study history, et cetera.

    7 Q. So you're talking about this cultural and art

    8 society, and you've been using an abbreviation; haven't

    9 you?

    10 A. Yes. Yes, I've been using this abbreviation

    11 for cultural and art society, but they didn't want to

    12 join us, you see, and I was sorry.

    13 On several occasions I had a heated

    14 discussion. I can't remember. Once we had a

    15 performance at the cinema and Napredak organised it,

    16 and we asked them to dance, and they didn't want to

    17 dance under the name of Napredak. This was already in

    18 1992. Then I intervened, and the others wouldn't let

    19 them at all, and I intervened and -- I intervened so

    20 they could perform under the name of the Town Society.

    21 They danced at the time with Muslims, and Serbs, and

    22 others, and all that.

    23 Q. Tell me, did they explain why they didn't

    24 want to go to Napredak, why, or did this question

    25 remain pending?

  51. 1 A. Well, they did not like this division into

    2 national groups because they lived and worked together

    3 for some ten-odd years and they didn't like it this

    4 way. They didn't want to have a mono-ethnic society

    5 and become part of it.

    6 Q. Tell me, do you know whether they also

    7 socialised with members of other ethnic groups?

    8 A. Of course they did. Until 1993, we all

    9 socialised together because I liked also to be with

    10 those artists. We would sit and have a drink or two

    11 and so. Until, one might say, the first day of war,

    12 everybody socialised.

    13 Q. Do you remember one day before the war -- and

    14 we shall take at the beginning the war. The war began

    15 on the 16th. So I'm referring to the eve of it, that

    16 is the 15th of April. What were you doing then?

    17 A. I could tell you every minute.

    18 Q. No. I'm not asking you about every minute.

    19 What were you doing then?

    20 A. I was out in a village. I was making a story

    21 about blacksmiths. Then I went home, had luncheon that

    22 afternoon. I went to the coffee bar Set and there I

    23 sought musicians who were with them. I saw Mirjan

    24 there. It was around 4.00 or 5.00. It is a coffee bar

    25 which does not accommodate more than four or five

  52. 1 people. You can just sit at the bar and that's it. So

    2 we mostly, who had something to do with various arts,

    3 that is, we met there.

    4 Q. Tell us, were there any Muslims there in that

    5 company?

    6 A. Yes, there was. Fahrudin Ahmic. I think

    7 he's a drummer. I saw him on the -- in the afternoon

    8 of the 15th of April.

    9 Q. Do you know anything about their activities

    10 after the war in that cultural society, now that you're

    11 in Napredak, because there are no other such companies;

    12 are there?

    13 A. No, there are no other companies.

    14 Q. Do you know if they also reactivated,

    15 animated, other people to join the society after the

    16 war?

    17 A. After the war, they joined Napredak because

    18 there was no other such societies. That was the

    19 aftermath of the war. But they were very active in

    20 their society, and they contributed a great deal to the

    21 study of our folklore. There were -- I think there

    22 still are some Muslims in our folklore company.

    23 Q. Are there any Serbs there?

    24 A. Yes, there are Serbs.

    25 Q. Are there any Romany?

  53. 1 A. Yes, there are Romany too.

    2 Q. Do you know anything about what they did when

    3 they heard they had been indicted by the International

    4 Criminal Tribunal in The Hague?

    5 A. My impression was the following: After the

    6 war, I saw them much more often than before the war.

    7 When we heard about the indictment and, again, we

    8 naturally were in a cafeteria, because where else?

    9 Everything begins and ends in a coffee bar, and you

    10 know what? I've been taking very many notes during the

    11 war because these were things that interested me, and a

    12 book I'm writing about the war perhaps will explain

    13 certain things. Perhaps it will explain them to me

    14 too.

    15 But as regards these two, well, naturally --

    16 I don't know. They were flabbergasted. I asked

    17 them -- I was trying -- I put out some tentacles to

    18 learn more from them about these things, but I could

    19 not learn anything from them, nor can I do it now. As

    20 I look at them, I simply could not believe that they

    21 are indeed what the indictment purports them to be. I

    22 really don't see how they could do it.

    23 Q. What kind of notes were you taking about

    24 Ahmici, for what?

    25 A. Well, it's for my writing.

  54. 1 Q. So you want to write something about --

    2 A. Yes. I want to write something about those

    3 characters, about those people, or anything.

    4 Q. You didn't get any useful information from

    5 them?

    6 A. No information. I didn't even have the

    7 impression that they played any important role or that

    8 they knew anything. That is what I wanted to say.

    9 Q. Did they perhaps think that they should

    10 establish contact with somebody in The Hague Tribunal

    11 to clarify their position?

    12 A. I would not know. I do not know all the

    13 things that they did. What I do know is that they

    14 could not believe they had been accused. I don't

    15 really know what steps they took.

    16 Q. But do you know if a letter was written, a

    17 letter to The Hague, about them?

    18 A. No.

    19 Q. Do you know that they wrote a letter through

    20 a journalist, Zvonko Cilic?

    21 A. I think they did.

    22 Q. What?

    23 A. Wrote a letter of protest, but I don't

    24 remember that letter. It was a long time ago, three

    25 years.

  55. 1 Q. You don't remember the contents of the

    2 letter?

    3 A. No, I don't.

    4 Q. Do you perhaps remember --

    5 A. Well, you know, I read papers every day

    6 and ...

    7 Q. Do you know anything about that first

    8 conflict that took place?

    9 A. The first conflict, and the second one too

    10 completely astounded me. I was in the post office

    11 then.

    12 Q. But you yourself did not notice anything?

    13 A. No, I did not.

    14 Q. And finally, will you tell us, in your

    15 literary language, how would you describe Zoran and

    16 Mirjan?

    17 A. Well, it's much easier for me to put it on

    18 paper than speak because I'm not a good speaker, but I

    19 would describe them as good people, very dear to me,

    20 very broad-minded, interested in arts in general.

    21 With Zoran, I had an experience. When I

    22 heard that he had been accused, he borrowed from me

    23 books on oriental philosophy, Maharishi, Si Baba, and

    24 he wrote a lot about that. I think only a good man can

    25 do that. Yes, of course, he is a Catholic, but he also

  56. 1 likes the writings of somebody -- or Si Baba or

    2 Maharishi.

    3 Mirjan, I know him as a married fellow, as a

    4 gay fellow. We often played billiards together.

    5 Q. But you know them. Could you even imagine

    6 that they are people who could kill people?

    7 A. Well, that's what I tried to say when they

    8 learned of the indictment. So naturally, we were all

    9 flabbergasted because I simply cannot believe that such

    10 people could do such a thing.

    11 MR. RADOVIC: Thank you very much. I have no

    12 further questions.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Blaxill.

    14 MR. BLAXILL: No cross-examination. Thank

    15 you, Your Honours.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: No cross-examination. No

    17 questions.

    18 Thank you, Mr. Martinovic. I assume it you

    19 don't want to re-examine because there's been no

    20 cross-examination.

    21 Mr. Martinovic, thank you so much for giving

    22 evidence in court. You may now be released.

    23 (The witness withdrew)

    24 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, we were planning

    25 Tomo Alilovic for today, but he did not turn up. So we

  57. 1 have no more witnesses for today.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So we will

    3 adjourn, but before doing so, let me suggest -- I

    4 assume you will call the accused as witnesses at the

    5 end.

    6 Now, as you know, we will resume our

    7 proceedings on the 3rd of May, first of all with the

    8 three court witnesses and then with the witnesses to be

    9 called by Counsel Krajina.

    10 Since Counsel Krajina intends to start with

    11 the president of the Supreme Court of

    12 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I believe that's what you said.

    13 However, having read again the two judgements he is

    14 expected to comment on, I wonder to what extent we

    15 really need his testimony. It depends on what you

    16 intend to ask him because I honestly think those two

    17 judgements are hardly of any relevance to us.

    18 I hope you are not going to ask him questions

    19 about his notion of persecution or the notion of

    20 persecution laid down in the case law of

    21 Bosnia-Herzegovina because we are not particularly

    22 interested in that notion. We will have to apply the

    23 notion of persecution as it is laid down in our Statute

    24 and in public International Law.

    25 So could you please explain to us once again

  58. 1 on what particular points do you intend to call the

    2 President of the Supreme Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina in

    3 May?

    4 MR. KRAJINA: Mr. President, we already gave

    5 an explanation at the outset when we moved to that

    6 effect, and we also indicated why we believed that his

    7 testimony would be useful in these proceedings. On the

    8 basis of that motion, which was accompanied by the

    9 reasons for it, and as far as I know, the Trial Chamber

    10 approved the summoning of this witness and his

    11 testimony before the court.

    12 I may add that we simply wanted to indicate

    13 what is the judicial practice in Bosnia-Herzegovina

    14 with regard to the crime of persecution of civilian

    15 population in time of war, and because there were such

    16 cases in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the precedent of the

    17 Supreme Court does have inclination, naturally, what is

    18 the judicial practice, what kind of facts are required,

    19 what kind of elements are required to define the

    20 persecution of civilian population and, therefore, on

    21 which basis may people be charged with the persecution

    22 of the civilian population, and which are the sanctions

    23 envisaged by the Criminal Code of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    24 We also believe that this kind of information

    25 would be useful to this Tribunal because we think that

  59. 1 the elements required to qualify something as a crime

    2 and has possibility for the kind of crime in that

    3 country whose nationals are charged with them, we

    4 thought that it would be useful if the court had this

    5 information so as to clarify problems which exist both

    6 de facto and in jure with the problem, the problem -- I

    7 mean, persecution of the civilian population, the

    8 qualification of this crime, and the responsibility for

    9 this crime.

    10 In a nutshell, that is what we thought should

    11 be material to this case. I do not think that the

    12 testimony would take too much time, and we think that

    13 it will be very useful. Thank you very much.

    14 (Trial Chamber deliberates)

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: All right, Counsel Krajina,

    16 yes, the President of the Supreme Court of

    17 Bosnia-Herzegovina will be allowed to give evidence in

    18 court, only on the judicial practice of courts in

    19 Bosnia-Herzegovina concerning persecution, but this

    20 evidence should be given briefly, in a concise way, and

    21 then it will be for us to decide what relevance, if

    22 any, to give to this evidence, because, as you know, in

    23 principle, we have to apply only our Statute and

    24 international law, customary and treaty law. We are

    25 duty-bound to look into the judicial practice of the

  60. 1 former Yugoslavia only as far as sentencing is

    2 concerned, under Article 24(1) of our Statute.

    3 So I very much hope that you will stick to

    4 these guidelines when the President of the Supreme

    5 Court will be called here.

    6 Are there any other matters to be discussed

    7 before we adjourn until the 3rd of May?

    8 The Prosecutor has nothing? No?

    9 The Defence?

    10 I hope that the Defence counsel will hand in

    11 a list of witnesses for the 3rd of May, to be called as

    12 from the 3rd of May, by, say, the 26th of April, I

    13 wonder, if you don't mind, so that we have a few days

    14 to prepare.

    15 The Defence counsel will then provide the

    16 Prosecutor and the Court with this list around the 26th

    17 of April.

    18 We will resume our proceedings on the 3rd of

    19 May at 9.00, and we will follow the usual schedule,

    20 from 9.00 to 1.30.

    21 So we adjourn the hearing.

    22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

    23 11.23 a.m., to be reconvened on

    24 Monday, the 3rd day of May, 1999,

    25 at 9.00 a.m.