1. 1 Tuesday, 25th May, 1999

    2 (Open session)

    3 (The accused entered court)

    4 --- Upon commencing at 9.20 a.m.

    5 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-16-T, the

    6 Prosecutor versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic,

    7 Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic, and

    8 Vladimir Santic.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Good morning. We

    10 apologise for the delay. I understand the technicians

    11 had a few problems, but I very much hope that in the

    12 future the technicians will sort out the problems by

    13 8.30 so that we don't have any delay, and I will send a

    14 letter to the registrar asking her to urge the

    15 technicians to comply with this request.

    16 Before we start, may I ask Counsel Krajina to

    17 clarify his motion, in particular why he wants the

    18 Court to call the witness as a Court witness.

    19 MR. KRAJINA: Good morning, Your Honours.

    20 Mr. President, as you know, we have submitted

    21 a motion whereby we asked the Court to accept our

    22 proposal to call and hear a new witness who had not

    23 been announced as a witness earlier on, and if

    24 necessary, allow me to explain the reasons why we feel

    25 that the Court should call him.

  2. 1I should like to point out that this is a

    2 witness of Muslim ethnicity who is living and working

    3 in the area which is the subject of this hearing in

    4 court. The man comes from the village of Ahmici, and

    5 talking to us, he agreed to testify in this Court on

    6 condition that the Court summon him, because he feels

    7 that his appearance in this Tribunal, at the request of

    8 the Defence of the accused alone, could possibly, in

    9 the area in which he lives, cause some distrust towards

    10 him, and that is why we thought that this could be a

    11 justified reason for the Court to call him. In other

    12 words, the reasons are the same as we have given for

    13 previous two or three witnesses that we asked the Court

    14 to call. Those would be our main reasons, Your

    15 Honours. Thank you.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    17 Counsel Susak, on the very same point?

    18 MR. SUSAK: Your Honours, I should like to

    19 express my gratitude to the Trial Chamber on behalf of

    20 Drago Josipovic, his family, and in my personal name,

    21 for the understanding shown by the Trial Chamber for

    22 Josipovic and the decision whereby he was allowed to

    23 travel to Santici to attend the funeral of his mother.

    24 At the same time, I wish to thank the Trial Chamber for

    25 the high degree of confidence shown in Drago Josipovic

  3. 1by this decision. Thank you.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    3 (Trial Chamber confers)

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: We have decided, in light of

    5 the remarks just made by Counsel Krajina, to grant his

    6 motion. So it is granted, so we will call this witness

    7 as a Court witness, and we may now move on to our

    8 witnesses.

    9 MR. BLAXILL: May I interpose for one second,

    10 Mr. President?

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.

    12 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honours, you will recall

    13 the other day Counsel Susak raised the question of a

    14 certain name and a person whom he wished to try and

    15 trace for the purposes of contact and potential

    16 interview. Whilst that has been an issue fully covered

    17 when we submitted the Rule 67 application to Your

    18 Honours, we have undertaken further inquiries within

    19 our own records, and we frankly do not have any form of

    20 contact address or number that we could supply, nor do

    21 we have any way to contact the person and even ask if

    22 he would permit an interview with the Defence.

    23 We have, in fact, I think, gone a stage

    24 further and beyond the duty or any duty upon us and

    25 have raised an inquiry with the Bosnian authorities.

  4. 1We have no response in that quarter at this time. --

    2 THE INTERPRETER: Could you slow down,

    3 please, for the interpreters.

    4 MR. BLAXILL: We have no response at this

    5 time, but if and when we do hear anything, I think,

    6 perhaps, in fairness to the individual concerned, if

    7 traced, we would certainly request that person to

    8 consider speaking to Mr. Susak, and we would advise

    9 counsel accordingly. So that is the present position

    10 as regards his last inquiry. Thank you.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you so much.

    12 Counsel Susak?

    13 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, the Defence has

    14 received annex V with respect to the person the

    15 Prosecutor is referring to, but this annex VI has

    16 blacked-out portions, and since the Trial Chamber has

    17 instructed the Prosecutor to supply the Defence with

    18 annex VI without any deletions, could the Trial Chamber

    19 instruct the Prosecutor to provide the Defence with

    20 annex V in full, because, in that way, we will see the

    21 person that we are talking about, because it has the

    22 name and surname, the date of birth, and the place of

    23 residence of that person written in that document.

    24 May I add that different names were used for

    25 the same person in various places, which has caused

  5. 1confusion both for the Trial Chamber and for the

    2 Defence, and we are talking about mitigating evidence.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Blaxill?

    4 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honours, the document I

    5 know that my learned friend refers to is annex V. That

    6 was in fact submitted, I think, in full, to Your

    7 Honours. We have looked at it in its unexpurgated

    8 form, and it does not contain an address or number

    9 whereby that person can be contacted. I think the

    10 matters that were redacted from that document related

    11 to comments by an investigator regarding the witness

    12 and personal details of the investigator. I can assure

    13 my learned friend that the document does not contain

    14 the address. We have looked. Your Honours have seen

    15 that document yourselves.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, yes. I think the

    17 Prosecutor is right, so there is no further matter to

    18 discuss, and I suggest that we move on to our next

    19 witness. This is witness Krizanac.

    20 Yes, Counsel Krajina?

    21 MR. KRAJINA: Thank you. Mr. President, with

    22 your leave, allow me to supply a list of witnesses that

    23 we intend to hear this week. May I note that we have

    24 not managed to bring witness Dragan Samija, who was on

    25 our previous list of the 19th of April, under number

  6. 110, the reason being that members of his family a few

    2 days ago suffered a very serious traffic accident so

    3 that this witness is unable to leave his immobile

    4 mother and seriously injured sister whom he is the only

    5 one to take care of. We will do our best to bring him

    6 in next week. We are not sure that we will be able to

    7 do so, but we will inform Your Honours of this in due

    8 time.

    9 One further point I should like to make is

    10 that in the Defence team today, we have my legal

    11 assistant, colleague Danijel Gradac, from Zagreb.

    12 Thank you very much.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I think -- yes,

    14 Counsel Susak, did you ask for the floor? No? Sorry.

    15 I was wrong.

    16 So shall we start, then, with Mrs. Krizanac,

    17 and I understand no protective measures have been

    18 requested.

    19 (The witness entered court)

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, madam. Could

    21 you please stand and make the solemn declaration?

    22 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    24 truth.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

  7. 1seated. Counsel Pavkovic?

    2 MR. PAVKOVIC: (Interpretation) Good morning,

    3 Your Honours. Good morning, madam.

    4 THE WITNESS: Good morning.


    6 Examined by Mr. Pavkovic:

    7 Q. I am attorney Pavkovic, and we have conversed

    8 twice briefly before this. Today, I should like us to

    9 comment on a few issues with you, since after those

    10 conversations we had not agreed that you would appear

    11 here as a Defence witness, and later on I proposed that

    12 the Court call you as a Court witness.

    13 I would like to ask you to say a few words by

    14 way of introduction.

    15 Do you require any kind of protection

    16 regarding your appearance in this Tribunal today?

    17 A. In what sense?

    18 Q. Do you feel it necessary for your statement

    19 today and your very appearance in this court to be a

    20 secret that only the people here present would be aware

    21 of?

    22 A. I don't mind.

    23 MR. PAVKOVIC: (Interpretation) So, Your

    24 Honours, as you see, the witness feels that she doesn't

    25 need any protection.

  8. 1Q. Let us begin now.

    2 Mrs. Krizanac, would you first please

    3 introduce yourself to the Court?

    4 A. My name?

    5 Q. Yes. If you have any nickname. No, remain

    6 seated.

    7 A. My name is Dragica Krizanac. I was married

    8 Alilovic. Since my husband has died, so my maiden name

    9 is Krizanac, my married name, Alilovic. I have been

    10 living in Amsterdam for seven years with two minor

    11 children.

    12 Q. That is sufficient. Thank you.

    13 So you have just told us that you are living

    14 here in the Netherlands in Amsterdam?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Do you have a family who you're living with?

    17 A. I'm living with my two children, who are both

    18 under age.

    19 Q. How old are your children?

    20 A. The older child is fifteen and a half, and

    21 that is a daughter, and my son, who is the younger

    22 child, is nine years old.

    23 Q. Could you give us their names?

    24 A. My daughter's name is Emilija Alilovic, and

    25 my son's name is Petar Alilovic.

  9. 1Q. Would you tell us whether your children are

    2 attending school today?

    3 A. Yes. They are regularly attending school.

    4 Q. Could you tell me when exactly you arrived in

    5 the Netherlands?

    6 A. I arrived in the Netherlands on the 30th of

    7 April, 1992.

    8 Q. Who came with you at the time?

    9 A. I came with my two children.

    10 Q. Where did you come from?

    11 A. I came from Bosnia, from Vitez, via Vienna.

    12 Bosnia, Vienna, Amsterdam.

    13 Q. Does that mean that until going to Vienna and

    14 then Amsterdam, you had lived in Vitez?

    15 A. Yes. I lived in Vitez all the time. Vienna

    16 was just the transit place where I changed trains.

    17 Q. Where did you live until 1992?

    18 A. I, my husband, and two children lived in

    19 Vitez, in the centre of the town of Vitez, until that

    20 time.

    21 Q. Can you give us your address?

    22 A. The address was Partizanska Street, number 5,

    23 Vitez. I think the name of the street has been changed

    24 in the meantime.

    25 Q. You said you lived with your husband. What

  10. 1was his name?

    2 A. His name was Stipo Alilovic.

    3 Q. Did he have a nickname?

    4 A. Yes. Everyone knew him as Brko, meaning

    5 "moustache."

    6 Q. Tell us, where did you used to work, if at

    7 all?

    8 A. Yes, I worked in the military factory called

    9 Slobodan Princip Seljo for about 13 years until 1991.

    10 Then that one year, '91 to '92, we were laid off, so I

    11 spent a year in that status until I left for Holland.

    12 Q. Tell us, your husband, Stipo --

    13 A. He was also working.

    14 Q. Where was he working?

    15 A. He was a private entrepreneur until 1991. He

    16 had a small store of his own, a firm of his own in the

    17 centre of Vitez.

    18 Q. Can you tell us where Stipo was born?

    19 A. Stipo was born in the village of Nadioci,

    20 about five kilometres from the centre of Vitez.

    21 Q. Did he have brothers and sisters?

    22 A. Yes, he had three brothers and four sisters.

    23 Q. Could you give us their names?

    24 A. His brother's name was Mato Alilovic. He's

    25 still alive; Mirko Alilovic, who died before the war;

  11. 1Ivo Alilovic, who also died before the war. His

    2 sisters are Ankica Alilovic, who is alive; Marija

    3 Alilovic, who is alive, and Ivka Alilovic, who is

    4 living in Vienna, who is also alive, and the oldest

    5 sister, who is also alive.

    6 So among the men, there's only one living

    7 brother, Mato.

    8 Q. Where is he living?

    9 A. He's living in the family home in Nadioci,

    10 where my husband was born.

    11 Q. Tell me, why did you leave Bosnia?

    12 A. The first reason was that my husband happened

    13 to be visiting with his sister, who was living in

    14 Vienna when the war broke out. The war broke out in

    15 Sarajevo, and he was already in Vienna. The roads were

    16 no longer possible for him to return when the war in

    17 Sarajevo started, so we agreed by telephone that I

    18 should go to Amsterdam and that he would come to

    19 Amsterdam too. So we agreed to go to the Netherlands.

    20 That was the first reason.

    21 The second reason was we saw that the war was

    22 in the offing, there was no work, that there was

    23 general chaos, that the war had really begun, and we

    24 didn't want to participate in that war.

    25 Q. You said that when the war broke out, Stipo

  12. 1was in Vienna. Could you tell us when that was?

    2 A. My husband left on the 23rd of March, 1992,

    3 to go to Vienna about a month before me.

    4 Q. Does that mean that when you reached Vienna,

    5 all of you together went on?

    6 A. No. My husband had already gone to

    7 Amsterdam, and he was waiting for me and the children

    8 in Amsterdam.

    9 Q. Where did you meet?

    10 A. We met at the central station in Amsterdam.

    11 He was already in a hotel. He had been there for seven

    12 days, and he was waiting for us.

    13 Q. After that, where did you go with your

    14 family?

    15 A. Then we reported to the police for aliens,

    16 and they sent us to the asylum centre in Heidehoek

    17 in the Netherlands. But we spent only one

    18 weekend there, and after that we asked for the asylum

    19 and we went to Brabant, that is, to Rijsbergen near

    20 Brabant.

    21 Q. You said you applied for asylum. Did you

    22 have, on that occasion, to show some of your personal

    23 documents, your papers, to the authorities?

    24 A. Yes, all that we had, such as the birth

    25 certificate, for instance, our passports, our identity

  13. 1cards. Yes, you have to hand over all that you have to

    2 the authorities, and they take it and keep it until the

    3 procedure lasts. That is, the police for foreigners,

    4 for aliens, keeps them until your case is solved.

    5 Q. But were you issued some other identification

    6 papers to use meanwhile?

    7 A. No. We were at this asylum centre, and every

    8 day you are issued this card and every day you have to

    9 report, that is, you have to be there. We were then

    10 issued a certificate by the police for the aliens, that

    11 they were in possession of such and such documents.

    12 Q. Tell us, how long did you stay at this

    13 reception centre?

    14 A. Well, we changed three of the centres. In

    15 the first one, we were for a month and a half. This is

    16 for the so-called processing centre. Next to Arnhem,

    17 which is the second one, and that is where we spent two

    18 months, and the third one in Rosmalen, next

    19 to 's-Hertogenbosch, which was the third place where we

    20 spent about four months.

    21 Q. Now, we talk about the time. How long did

    22 you spend in those centres?

    23 A. Altogether, I think we spent seven months in

    24 those asylum centres.

    25 Q. When you say "we," you mean the whole family?

  14. 1A. Yes.

    2 Q. So, you say "seven months." What year was

    3 that?

    4 A. 1992, or to be more precise, between the 1st

    5 of May, '92, until the 1st of December, '92. On the

    6 1st of December, we moved to Amsterdam to live. That

    7 is, we came from the asylum centre to Amsterdam, to a

    8 flat, to a regular flat.

    9 Q. That means that you took out a flat in

    10 Amsterdam?

    11 A. Well, that was done during our asylum centre

    12 procedure. That is, that was how it was done. We had

    13 not been granted asylum yet, but we were given a flat

    14 because, after all, we were a family with children so

    15 we could not stay in the centre for long and we were

    16 given this flat, and that was the procedure.

    17 Q. Do you remember, from the time you spent in

    18 these centres, do you remember the name of a person or

    19 persons who, like you, arrived from Bosnia?

    20 A. Yes. In 1992, these asylum centres were full

    21 of Bosnian, but these were not people we knew. Nobody

    22 came from the area of Vitez. There were people from

    23 East Bosnia, from Sarajevo. That is where the war was

    24 taking place, and that is why they came, so that we

    25 knew absolutely nobody in the asylum centre.

  15. 1Q. And when you came to Amsterdam and were

    2 accommodated in this flat, did you begin to do

    3 something, to work somewhere or something?

    4 A. No, but the children were immediately

    5 enrolled in the school, the Dutch school that is, the

    6 elementary school or, rather, the older child in

    7 elementary school and the younger in the kindergarten.

    8 One parent had to look after the children every day,

    9 that is, take the children to the school and bring them

    10 back. That is how it is in Dutch schools.

    11 So one parent had to be with the children,

    12 because they were small children, and the other parent

    13 had to learn Dutch. That was the procedure. We agreed

    14 that my husband would take the children to school and I

    15 would take Dutch lessons. So I went to school every

    16 day to learn Dutch, and that is the procedure

    17 applicable to all asylum seekers.

    18 Q. Your husband, you said, took care of the

    19 children?

    20 A. Yes. He looked after household chores and

    21 children and --

    22 Q. Right. But let us go back to the period of

    23 time that you spent in various reception centres. Were

    24 you with your husband there every day, all the time?

    25 A. Yes, every day, every moment, because a

  16. 1family has a room there with a bathroom. There is a

    2 canteen where you eat. You need to have it stamped

    3 every day, there were special cards for adults and for

    4 children, so that we were there day in and day out and

    5 we were together in those asylum centres.

    6 Q. When you returned to Amsterdam and after what

    7 you told us, your husband looked after the children and

    8 you attended language courses, did you strike a

    9 friendship with anyone?

    10 A. Well, not true friendship, I wouldn't say so,

    11 but we came to know people who lived on the same

    12 street, and they come from all ethnic groups. At

    13 school, of course, we met the teacher, the principal of

    14 the school, other children. So little by little, we

    15 began to know various people, because when we came

    16 there, we knew no one. We did not have any relatives

    17 in the Netherlands.

    18 Q. Could you perhaps recall a name from that

    19 time?

    20 A. Yes. Mrs. Johanna Helmer, who lived three

    21 streets away from us, her children attended the same

    22 class as my daughter. The lady is Dutch.

    23 Q. Did you go with the children to the

    24 kindergarten and the school at times?

    25 A. Oh, yes, yes. It was mandatory. One of the

  17. 1parents would have to go to the kindergarten once a

    2 week, because the child was just beginning to learn the

    3 language. So it was obligatory for one of the parents

    4 to spend the whole day with the child at the

    5 kindergarten, and sometimes I went and sometimes my

    6 husband.

    7 Q. From what I understand, your husband did not

    8 and could not, indeed, be absent for a while without

    9 your knowledge about it.

    10 A. No, because, yes, we did have a flat, but we

    11 still had not been granted asylum. We were still

    12 waiting for the decision, and we could not absent

    13 ourselves for more than a day.

    14 Q. Which also means that you did not have

    15 relevant papers or anything?

    16 A. No, absolutely not. The only paper we had

    17 was with the Post Bank. We had to open an account

    18 there, and then the Post Bank issued us an identity

    19 card. We couldn't get any other paper, only that paper

    20 from the bank with which we held our account.

    21 Q. Right. Now, if I may try to take you back to

    22 1993, you know when the war broke out in Central

    23 Bosnia, you heard. Did you keep in touch with your

    24 relatives, somebody in Vitez, by telephone or

    25 something?

  18. 1A. No. At that time, it was impossible to

    2 establish telephone communication, impossible. We knew

    3 there was war there because there was CNN and

    4 television and the press which reached Amsterdam, such

    5 as Slobodna Dalmacija, Arena, which still reaches

    6 Amsterdam, so it was either through written press or

    7 television.

    8 Q. So in 1993 when the war broke out in Central

    9 Bosnia, notably in Vitez and around that, you were

    10 aware about that, you knew about that?

    11 A. Yes, yes, absolutely. Of course we wanted to

    12 know about these things. That is our country.

    13 Q. Do you know what year that was?

    14 A. 1993.

    15 Q. Where was your husband at the time?

    16 A. In 1993? In Amsterdam.

    17 Q. As of the moment when you met in Amsterdam,

    18 that is, when you arrived from Vienna and he was

    19 already there, until April 1993, did your husband ever

    20 leave the family?

    21 A. No, absolutely not.

    22 MR. PAVKOVIC: Tell me, Mr. President, very

    23 briefly, could we go into closed session, because I

    24 need to mention some names of some persons under

    25 protection.

  19. 1JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, we can go into closed

    2 session -- into private session, please.

    3 (Private session)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

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    20 (redacted)

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    25 (redacted)

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    2 (redacted)

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    13 (redacted)

    14 (Open session)

    15 MR. PAVKOVIC:

    16 Q. Mrs. Krizanac, at the very beginning of your

    17 testimony today, you said that "Brko" was your

    18 husband's nickname. What's that particular nickname?

    19 Will you please explain it to us?

    20 A. Well, because my husband always wore a

    21 mustache, and a considerable mustache, so if somebody

    22 could not remember his name or if his name escaped

    23 somebody, he would refer to him as Brko, which means

    24 "mustache." So that is what they called him in Vitez.

    25 Q. Did he perhaps have a beard too?

  24. 1A. Yes, of late, towards the end of his life, he

    2 also wore a beard. But earlier, as a young man, he

    3 only had a mustache, but yes, in Amsterdam, he also had

    4 a beard and a mustache.

    5 Q. People say he was very hirsute, that is, he

    6 had a very strong beard and a well-grown beard, and

    7 that is how he was recognisable at the time. He could

    8 not be mistaken for anyone else because he had this

    9 very strong beard?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Tell us, we learned that your husband died;

    12 when was it?

    13 A. My husband died on the 25th of October, 1995,

    14 and he was buried five days after that, on the 30th of

    15 October, 1995.

    16 Q. Just one more sentence. So he never left, he

    17 never went back to Bosnia?

    18 A. No. No. No.

    19 Q. And today, do you keep in touch with your

    20 relatives in Bosnia?

    21 A. Yes, absolutely.

    22 Q. With his brother and --

    23 Q. Yes.

    24 Q. Do you go there?

    25 A. I do, once a year, in summer.

  25. 1Q. Do you have any problems there?

    2 A. Well, not really.

    3 Q. Do you have any property over there?

    4 A. Yes, yes.

    5 Q. What do you have there?

    6 A. I have land. Land.

    7 Q. While you were here, until 1995 or, rather,

    8 until your husband was still there, did you have any

    9 financial obligations, people who were employed, while

    10 the war was going on there?

    11 A. No, absolutely not.

    12 Q. No, or is it that you don't know that?

    13 A. No, because we had no contact with them, so

    14 we had no obligations either.

    15 Q. Yes, you told us that you did not maintain

    16 contact with anyone.

    17 A. No. Just as an example, in June '93, my

    18 mother died, and I knew nothing about that. I received

    19 a letter three months later. I still have it. It was

    20 through the Red Cross, informing me that my mother had

    21 died. So we absolutely had no contact. We were

    22 completely out of touch.

    23 Q. Did you know that your husband had been

    24 indicted?

    25 A. Yes.

  26. 1Q. So please, if I ask you some more questions,

    2 do not mention any names at all. The indictment was

    3 issued posthumously?

    4 A. As far as I know, two days after his

    5 funeral. He was buried on the 30th of October, 1995,

    6 and I saw from the indictment that it was issued on the

    7 2nd of November of the same year, which means two days

    8 after his funeral, the indictment was confirmed.

    9 Q. Did you talk to any officials of this

    10 Tribunal, in the broadest sense, any investigators, in

    11 connection with all the things that we have mentioned

    12 today?

    13 A. Yes, last year in May I came to the Tribunal,

    14 and I talked about all these things linked to my

    15 husband.

    16 Q. Did you hand in any documents then which can

    17 corroborate what you have been saying?

    18 A. Not at the time, but my attorney, who has

    19 offices in The Hague, handed to the Tribunal all the

    20 documents that we had collected together.

    21 Q. So you handed to him all your documents

    22 regarding your residence, your land ownership rights,

    23 your status as refugees, for both you and your husband?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 MR. PAVKOVIC: I should just like to recall,

  27. 1Your Honours, that these documents have been entered

    2 into the record as Document D2/6.

    3 Q. Thank you, madam. That is all I wanted.

    4 Thank you for your assistance.

    5 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. That

    6 will be all.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel Pavkovic.

    8 Is any other Defence counsel going to

    9 cross-examine this witness?

    10 There's no cross-examination?

    11 All right. So the Prosecutor.

    12 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.

    13 Cross-examined by Mr. Terrier:

    14 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Krizanac. My name is

    15 Terrier. I'm one of the counsel of the Prosecution,

    16 and I have several questions for you following the

    17 testimony you have made.

    18 First of all, I should refer to the last

    19 years you and your family spent in Bosnia. You told us

    20 that your husband worked in a private business until

    21 1991. Could you be more precise about that?

    22 A. It's a private firm of which he was the

    23 owner, and it was called Boutique Ema. It was

    24 registered in Vitez.

    25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness speak

  28. 1into the microphone, please.

    2 THE WITNESS: (In English) Sorry. Sorry.

    3 A. My husband worked as a private entrepreneur.

    4 His boutique was called Ema, and it was registered

    5 under that name in Vitez municipality.

    6 MR. TERRIER:

    7 Q. Until what date was this shop working under

    8 your husband's management?

    9 A. I don't know the exact date, because it was

    10 not my business but his, but I know it was until 1991.

    11 Q. Did your husband have any employment or any

    12 resources between 1991 and his departure for the

    13 Netherlands?

    14 A. No, because the whole system collapsed. I

    15 wasn't working either. Nobody was working, as far as I

    16 know, in those days. Until April '92, I think people

    17 simply were not working, at least not in our

    18 surroundings.

    19 Q. What were the resources, means of livelihood,

    20 between 1991 and March 1992?

    21 A. We lived off our savings, what I had made at

    22 work and my husband from his business.

    23 Q. Didn't your husband have a restaurant in

    24 Santici before he opened the shop Ema in Vitez that you

    25 mentioned?

  29. 1A. Yes, from 1980 until 1988 or '89, he was a

    2 private entrepreneur also, but he held a coffee shop,

    3 and later a restaurant. I think it's called -- Nadioci

    4 or Ahmici, not Santici -- but anyway, these localities

    5 are very close to one another. He had a restaurant

    6 called Sangaj.

    7 Q. Why did he stop running this restaurant, your

    8 husband?

    9 A. Because it no longer paid. He wasn't making

    10 a profit.

    11 Q. What happened to that restaurant after 1989?

    12 A. It wasn't our house, but it was in the house

    13 of my husband's relative, and the owner of the house

    14 took over the running of the restaurant. It was a

    15 restaurant that we had rented. It wasn't in our

    16 ownership. We didn't own it.

    17 Q. So after 1989, you continued to rent the

    18 premises of that restaurant to somebody who ran that

    19 restaurant. Until when did this situation continue?

    20 A. No, in 1989, he returned the premises to

    21 their owner, and he opened the Ema boutique in Vitez,

    22 in other words, he started up a new business in 1989,

    23 so he was no longer in the restaurant business, and he

    24 switched to trade.

    25 Q. We misunderstood one another, but a further

  30. 1precision. Did your husband retain his rights over

    2 that restaurant?

    3 A. Yes, he made a profit from that restaurant,

    4 but the house in which the restaurant was housed was

    5 not our ownership, and in 1989 we stopped renting those

    6 premises. We stopped working in those premises. We

    7 returned the premises to their owner, and the owner may

    8 have rented it out to somebody else.

    9 Q. Just a moment. You explained why you and

    10 your family left Bosnia to go to Holland. Do you

    11 remember, when your husband asked for the status of a

    12 political refugee from the authorities for himself and

    13 your family, did he give certain reasons for the

    14 motives for his departure? Are you aware of that?

    15 A. Yes. He explained, when asked why he was

    16 asking for asylum in the Netherlands, he explained that

    17 he didn't want to be a soldier, to be killed or to kill

    18 other people. That he was against war as matter of

    19 conviction and that he didn't want to wear any uniform,

    20 and that is why he went abroad. He saw that the war

    21 had begun and that he would be forced to wear one or

    22 another uniform.

    23 Q. Do you remember, madam, that your husband

    24 told the Dutch authorities, when he made this request

    25 for refugee status, he was called on the 27th of March,

  31. 11992, to do his military service in the army and that

    2 he refused and that there was danger of him being

    3 arrested?

    4 A. I don't know, because when he was making that

    5 statement, he had to be alone with representatives of

    6 the authorities. All I know is what he told me, so I

    7 don't know all the details of that interview.

    8 When asking for an asylum, the interview was

    9 not conducted with the whole family but with each adult

    10 person separately. So I was interviewed separately and

    11 my husband was interviewed separately, and these things

    12 are confidential.

    13 Q. I understand. But still, your husband had no

    14 reason to say to the Dutch authorities things that were

    15 not correct?

    16 A. No, he had no reason at all.

    17 Q. It appears that he told the Dutch authorities

    18 that he was still in Bosnia on the 27th of March,

    19 1992. Can you confirm that?

    20 A. No. No. He said, as far as I know, that he

    21 was in Vienna and that he came to Amsterdam, and he

    22 confirmed this by showing his passport, which had the

    23 stamp with the appropriate date when he entered the

    24 Netherlands from Vienna by train.

    25 Q. Do you know how he reached Vienna from Vitez?

  32. 1A. He travelled from Vitez to Vienna by bus. I

    2 think this was a private bus line which transported

    3 workers working in Austria on Sundays. I know it was a

    4 Sunday, and it was a direct line going from Vitez to

    5 Vienna. It was for the workers who would come home for

    6 the weekend from Austria and then go back.

    7 Q. Is it possible that your husband told the

    8 Dutch authorities, when requesting refugee status, that

    9 one of his reasons for leaving Bosnia was also the

    10 stress caused by his business, which resulted in

    11 psychiatric treatment in hospital?

    12 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

    13 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I do not wish

    14 to interrupt the cross-examination, but I must point

    15 out that the witness said that she was not present when

    16 her husband was interviewed by the Dutch authorities

    17 and that she does not know the contents of that

    18 conversation. I don't think it is appropriate for the

    19 Prosecutor to present the witness with something that

    20 she has said she is not aware of. He is talking about

    21 something that she knows nothing about. So how can she

    22 say whether that was so or not?

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, but listen,

    24 Mr. Pavkovic. It is up to the witness to say "Yes"

    25 or "No," "I was present" or "I was not present." So I

  33. 1think it is quite appropriate for the Prosecutor to ask

    2 these questions. The witness can very well say, "I

    3 cannot answer your question because I wasn't present."

    4 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President --

    5 MR. PAVKOVIC: But she has already said

    6 that. She has just said that. So I think the witness

    7 should be spared further questioning about that. That

    8 is my opinion.

    9 MR. TERRIER: But Mr. Pavkovic, I fully

    10 understood that the witness wasn't present. On the

    11 other hand, it seems to me quite possible that the

    12 witness could confirm or deny the realism of certain

    13 statements made by her husband to the Dutch authorities

    14 and specifically the allegation of psychiatric

    15 hospitalisation, so that the witness could say whether

    16 her husband was hospitalised or not for psychiatric

    17 reasons.

    18 Q. Madam, would you please quickly answer this

    19 question. As far as you know, was your husband, before

    20 leaving Bosnia, hospitalised for psychiatric reasons?

    21 A. Not before leaving Bosnia, but in 1986 --

    22 these were reasons of a private nature -- he was in

    23 hospital, yes, but not before leaving Bosnia. In 1986

    24 this happened.

    25 Q. I don't quite understand what you have said.

  34. 1In 1986 you were still in Bosnia, and therefore this

    2 hospitalisation for private reasons was indeed before

    3 you left Bosnia.

    4 MR. TERRIER: I'm just checking the record,

    5 Mr. President. This is just for the record.

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Thank you, madam.

    8 A. You're welcome.

    9 Q. This refugee status, was it granted

    10 immediately?

    11 A. No. We acquired refugee status on the 19th

    12 of May, 1993, but the procedure lasted for another

    13 month, that is, until we got the official documents as

    14 refugees from the police for aliens. We received the

    15 papers, the documents, at the end of June.

    16 Q. Were you and your husband quite certain that

    17 you would acquire refugee status, or did you

    18 contemplate the possibility of this status being

    19 rejected?

    20 A. Nobody was sure. We spoke to other people in

    21 the asylum, and there were 400 people there, and no one

    22 was certain, so we weren't either.

    23 Q. Is it true that a first-instance-level

    24 commission rejected your request, that you appealed

    25 that decision, and it was after that appeal that you

  35. 1were granted refugee status?

    2 A. Yes, we did receive a document rejecting our

    3 request, but as explained to us by the attorney, this

    4 was of a formal nature because the Dutch rejected these

    5 requests at first, waiting for developments in Bosnia.

    6 As the war escalated, then they were granted. All

    7 people who made such a request were granted such a

    8 status. The attorney said that this was simply a

    9 formal rejection and that we would appeal it, and we

    10 did.

    11 Q. Can we say that in April 1993, you were very

    12 confident that you would have that status, or were you

    13 quite uncertain regarding your future and that you

    14 feared that you would not be granted that status? What

    15 was your state of mind in April 1993?

    16 A. We were more or less certain by then, as we

    17 were no longer in that refugee centre, we had already

    18 received accommodation, we were receiving welfare, the

    19 children could enrol in Dutch schools, which meant a

    20 great deal for us, so that we were quite sure that

    21 things were developing in the direction of us being

    22 granted that status.

    23 Q. So at that time -- I'm talking about April

    24 1993 -- you had no fears regarding the future of your

    25 family and the possibility of the status being rejected

  36. 1and of your having to leave the Netherlands? You had

    2 no further fears at that time?

    3 A. We were quite relatively sure, and we

    4 contacted our attorney, who assured us that the Dutch

    5 government would grant such a status to all Bosnians

    6 because the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina was escalating,

    7 so our attorney was giving us hope in that sense.

    8 Q. You told us a moment ago, madam, that as

    9 identity documents, you and your husband had only the

    10 bank cards. I was rather astonished, because it is not

    11 up to a bank to issue identity papers, and when you ask

    12 for such a status in any country you normally receive

    13 some kind of identity document until a decision is

    14 taken regarding your request for refugee status.

    15 A. Yes, there was a problem for refugees in

    16 1993, as all the documents were in possession (sic) of

    17 ID papers, and people were already living in cities, in

    18 apartments, and when they go to the bank they can't

    19 open an account because they want your passport. You

    20 tell them, "But the police has our documents." Then

    21 they still insist on a passport.

    22 Then many of us contacted the

    23 Vluchtelingenwerk in Amsterdam, and they agreed with

    24 the bank to give us an ID card which would enable us to

    25 open an account in the bank. I can show you that ID

  37. 1card that my husband had. I have it in my handbag.

    2 Q. Yes, please. Would you do that?

    3 A. Here it is (witness complies).

    4 (Trial Chamber confers)

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Terrier, I don't know

    6 whether you have very many questions.

    7 MR. TERRIER: Well, quite a number.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Well, in that case, I would

    9 suggest a 30-minute break.

    10 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

    11 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Terrier, you have the

    13 floor.

    14 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Sir.

    15 Q. Madam, just before the break, you showed us a

    16 document which was issued to your husband by the postal

    17 administration, and this document is evidence for his

    18 identity for any postal transactions. But I didn't

    19 have that in mind. What I had in mind was a document

    20 issued by the administrative authorities, I believe by

    21 the police, the Dutch police. Do you remember that

    22 document?

    23 A. No, just that it wasn't only for postal

    24 services but also for banking services. It is the Post

    25 Bank with which my husband had an account, and he

  38. 1needed this card, this identity card, if he was to draw

    2 any money.

    3 But until we were granted refugee status, we

    4 could not be issued any documents at all. Only when we

    5 were granted the status of refugees, we were issued a

    6 card by the police for aliens, which said that my

    7 husband was a recognised refugee in the Netherlands,

    8 and after that I could get another document, something,

    9 I don't know what to call it, a passport really. Any

    10 refugee who had been granted refugee status could also

    11 apply for that particular document.

    12 Q. Earlier on, you told us that your husband and

    13 possibly yourself had to report to the police once a

    14 day. Can you confirm that?

    15 A. Once a day, people had to report while they

    16 were in the asylum-seeking centre. When we came to

    17 Amsterdam, then it was enough to report once to the

    18 police for the aliens, and until the police summoned

    19 you again, you did not have to report there on your

    20 own.

    21 Q. Therefore, as of the 1st of December, 1992,

    22 you were under no obligation to report regularly,

    23 recurrently, to any police station, to any police

    24 service?

    25 A. Correct, but this held true of all refugees.

  39. 1If you were given an apartment and you lived in an

    2 apartment, then until the summons from the police, you

    3 did not have to report again.

    4 Q. The documents referring to the request for

    5 the status as refugee were put into evidence under

    6 D2/6. It appears from such documents that unlike what

    7 you told us earlier on, that your husband left Bosnia

    8 on the 29th of March, 1992, and not on the 23rd of

    9 March, as you stated before.

    10 A. It was seven years ago. I may have forgotten

    11 the dates, but I know it was March of 1992.

    12 Q. Do you find it sometimes difficult to

    13 remember dates? I would understand that perfectly,

    14 because indeed it's a long time ago since that happened

    15 and it may prove difficult to be absolutely clear as to

    16 a date or as to a location, that it might prove

    17 difficult to say where you were on a specific date and

    18 a specific location. I would understand that

    19 perfectly.

    20 These very documents, in order to account for

    21 his departure and for the departure of his family, your

    22 husband said that on several occasions he was called by

    23 the authorities to join the army, he refused to do so,

    24 and that an arrest warrant had been issued against

    25 him. Can you confirm all that?

  40. 1A. That was his statement that he gave secretly

    2 when he asked for the refugee status, but I was not

    3 present and I do not know what he said. Only his

    4 counsel and somebody from the Ministry of Justice were

    5 present.

    6 Q. One clarification. I'm not asking you to

    7 confirm the fact that your husband would have stated

    8 this or that to the Dutch authorities. What I'm asking

    9 you is to confirm or to infirm whether his statement to

    10 the Dutch authorities, on the basis of the documents

    11 before the Tribunal, are in keeping with your memory.

    12 You used to live with him. You were aware of

    13 the situation, which was also your situation.

    14 Therefore, you were in an ideal position to confirm or

    15 infirm what he might have said. Hence my question.

    16 Is it accurate to say that before his

    17 departure from Bosnia, he had received several requests

    18 from the local authorities for him to join the army?

    19 A. I don't know. I don't know.

    20 Q. I'm asking you to tell us whether, according

    21 to your memories, it is accurate to say that your

    22 husband, in refusing to comply with such request,

    23 feared that he would be regarded as a traitor in his

    24 community.

    25 A. He expressed such feelings in all

  41. 1conversations, but what he stated officially, I don't

    2 know.

    3 Q. What kind of fear did he speak about to you?

    4 A. It was simply fear of being a soldier. He

    5 did not want to take part in a war. He did not want to

    6 put on a uniform. He was like that. I mean he wasn't

    7 a man who wanted to put on uniforms and fight in a

    8 war. He was a businessman. He was a brinja (phoen),

    9 shall I say. He was very social, a very communicative

    10 man. He always liked to have coffee or a drink with

    11 somebody, to partake of something like that. But he

    12 simply wasn't the type. I mean he wasn't the kind of

    13 man who would readily wear a uniform and fight.

    14 Q. [Indiscernible] the Dutch authorities, on the

    15 basis of the documents before the Tribunal. Is it true

    16 to say that given that he was regarded as a traitor for

    17 not answering the calls by the Croat army, his property

    18 ran the risk of being seized under Croatian law?

    19 A. He wasn't afraid of that, because at the time

    20 when he left Bosnia, an official Croat army did not

    21 exist or an army made of Croats only. There was still

    22 the JNA as the official army.

    23 Q. According to your memories, when did the

    24 Croatian army come into existence?

    25 A. At the time, I was in the Netherlands, but I

  42. 1believe it was in 1993 or thereabouts when fighting

    2 began in Central Bosnia, I mean the Croat army in

    3 Bosnia. But I really don't know much about that,

    4 because I was not there at the time.

    5 Q. I'm referring to a report drafted by the

    6 Dutch authorities, dated the 14th of May, 1992. This

    7 was served to the Tribunal. It is now evidence in the

    8 Tribunal's file. It is stated in this report that

    9 since your husband failed to join the Croatian army, he

    10 feared to be regarded as a traitor and he feared that

    11 his property would be seized in keeping and accordance

    12 with the Croatian law.

    13 Such allegations as drafted in the report and

    14 made by your husband, do they have any echo in you? Do

    15 you remember your husband saying the same thing?

    16 A. No. That was his statement related to the

    17 matter of the asylum, but he did not tell me anything

    18 about that.

    19 Q. Do you have reasons to believe that he might

    20 have said things to the Dutch authorities in support of

    21 his request for asylum, things that were not accurate?

    22 A. Well, he had no reason to. I don't think he

    23 had any reason to lie.

    24 Q. Earlier on, answering a question put by

    25 Mr. Pavkovic, you said that you had property in

  43. 1Bosnia. Could you be more specific as to the property

    2 you have there?

    3 A. My husband had land he inherited from his

    4 father.

    5 Q. Did he only have one piece of land?

    6 A. There were several lots. I don't know

    7 exactly how many, but three or four plots of land. I

    8 don't know the size of them.

    9 Q. Do you yourself, under your own name, have

    10 any property in Bosnia?

    11 A. Yes. When I arrived here, I had a small plot

    12 of land that I had inherited from my late mother.

    13 Q. Did you, at some point in time -- do you know

    14 whether at some point in time your husband's property

    15 was seized by the Bosnian authorities?

    16 A. No, as far as I know.

    17 MR. TERRIER: I'm going to ask for the

    18 usher's help for several documents to be shown to the

    19 witness.

    20 THE REGISTRAR: This is Prosecutor's evidence

    21 358.

    22 MR. TERRIER:

    23 Q. Madam, I hope you have in front of you a

    24 document which is a decision issued by the HVO in the

    25 municipality of Travnik in February 1993.

  44. 1It appears from the decision that all persons

    2 who have a duty to participate in the military effort

    3 have to report to the military authorities and that all

    4 those who fail to do so will be declared as deserters

    5 and their property confiscated.

    6 It is also stated that Croats who happen to

    7 reside abroad will not be regarded as deserters,

    8 inasmuch as they have employment as well as a residency

    9 permit in that foreign country which makes it possible

    10 for them to work on a regular basis and to comply with

    11 financial obligations.

    12 Were you aware of such a decision, madam?

    13 A. No. I have never seen it.

    14 Q. Could you tell us what contacts you still had

    15 by the end of 1992, early 1993, contacts with people

    16 residing in Central Bosnia?

    17 A. Towards the end of '92 and in early 1993, we

    18 had no contact whatsoever with anyone in Bosnia,

    19 neither with the authorities nor with a family.

    20 MR. PAVKOVIC: I apologise. Mr. President, I

    21 must note that my learned friend is showing to the

    22 witness a document relative to the municipality of

    23 Travnik, and the witness comes from another area, from

    24 another administrative subdivision. She comes from the

    25 municipality of Vitez. Now, the question is what does

  45. 1this document have to do with her and what kind of

    2 consequences -- what kind of effect it had in the

    3 territory where she and her husband lived at the time?

    4 MR. TERRIER: The question I put to the

    5 witness was whether she was aware of the decision. The

    6 witness answered that she wasn't, so I'll move on to

    7 another question.

    8 Q. Madam, could you confirm the fact that

    9 throughout this period from December 1992 to April, May

    10 '93, you had no contact whatsoever with anybody in

    11 Central Bosnia, not even with family members, not even

    12 with brothers and sisters of your husband?

    13 A. None whatsoever. We had no contact. We

    14 could not communicate by telephone because telephones

    15 did not work at the time, and we did not know people

    16 who came from Bosnia. We live in Amsterdam. We didn't

    17 know people who came from that area.

    18 Q. I'm still speaking about the period going

    19 from December '92 to April or May 1993. During that

    20 period, what was the income your family was living on?

    21 A. We were receiving social allowance from the

    22 municipality of the city -- from the city of Amsterdam,

    23 and that was our only source of livelihood.

    24 Q. Did you have other sources of income?

    25 A. None.

  46. 1Q. Answering a question raised by Mr. Pavkovic,

    2 you said that in May 1998 you met with Tribunal

    3 investigators. Didn't you tell them that from April

    4 '92 to July 1993, you worked six days a week from 1.30

    5 to midnight, illegally so, in a Croatian restaurant

    6 close to Haarlem in Holland, the name of the restaurant

    7 being Pula?

    8 A. Yes, that is true, but those people saw us as

    9 refugees. And since we had children, I was "vrouw

    10 vinegar," (phoen) as they say it in the Netherlands. I

    11 was simply helping that family, and they were giving us

    12 some food, some clothes, and some pocket money for

    13 children.

    14 Q. So no matter what income you would draw from

    15 that work in the restaurant, it was untrue to say that

    16 the only means of income you had at the time was the

    17 subsidies, the social benefits that you were getting

    18 from the Dutch authorities?

    19 A. Well, I did not see it as an income, because

    20 there were other families, Dutch families, who would

    21 give food or clothes, and everybody was helping the

    22 refugees, and so did those people in that restaurant.

    23 Q. Did your husband have a non-declared activity

    24 as well?

    25 A. No.

  47. 1Q. Are you sure of that?

    2 A. Yes, I am, because when I helped those people

    3 in the restaurant, he had to look after the children,

    4 take them to school. One of them had to be at home

    5 always, and near the school.

    6 Q. In other words, the work of taking the

    7 children to school, to bring them back from school,

    8 would take him the whole day? Is that so?

    9 A. Yes, well, children had to go to school in

    10 the morning. They would come back around 12.00 or a

    11 quarter past 12.00, then they would have their meal.

    12 They would have a rest, and then they would go back to

    13 school around half past 1.00. Then they had to go back

    14 again around 4.00 or quarter past 4.00 and then given

    15 another meal, and that would be the whole day.

    16 Q. Were you ever able to benefit from your

    17 neighbours' help, especially from your neighbours who,

    18 like you, were either from Bosnia or from Croatia?

    19 A. No, we did not know people from Bosnia.

    20 Q. Do you know a person called Besima Zrno,

    21 Z-r-n-o?

    22 A. Besima Zrno? No.

    23 Q. In autumn 1992, didn't your husband go back

    24 to Bosnia?

    25 A. In the autumn of 1992? No. No way.

  48. 1Q. Did he have car in Holland?

    2 A. He did.

    3 Q. So you didn't have any means of income, you

    4 were on social benefits, and still he was able to buy a

    5 car; is that so?

    6 A. He bought the car from the savings he had

    7 brought to the Netherlands, I think, right away, I

    8 think it was the summer of 1992. That car cost about

    9 2.000 guilders. That was an old car.

    10 Q. Did you yourself go back to Bosnia in

    11 autumn '92?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. Do you know Karlo Halilovic? Karlo

    14 Halilovic? Does that ring a bell?

    15 A. Karlo Alilovic; there is no "H." Yes, I know

    16 him. Karlo Alilovic, the same surname as my

    17 husband's. Yes, I do know him. He is a relative, a

    18 nephew, his brother's son -- that is, my husband was

    19 Karlo Alilovic's uncle.

    20 Q. What would Karlo Alilovic do in Bosnia?

    21 A. He was in the shipping and transportation

    22 business before the war.

    23 Q. Madam, you stated that your husband did not

    24 go back to Bosnia, never went back to Bosnia, once your

    25 family had left Bosnia. Here's my question, and I'm

  49. 1only focusing on this date of the 16th of April, 1993,

    2 or let's say from the 15th to the 17th of April, 1993.

    3 I'd like to know whether you have any documentary

    4 evidence or any other evidence showing that your

    5 husband was indeed in Holland on the 15th, on the 16th,

    6 and on the 17th of April, 1993.

    7 A. He was in Amsterdam at the time, at the

    8 address we gave you, but those three days, I cannot

    9 really remember those days, whether he went somewhere.

    10 I know that at that period of time, between March until

    11 the end of May, he went to the dentist, and the dentist

    12 provided this evidence, and we gave it to my lawyer.

    13 But I would not know the dates. I remember that he

    14 regularly went to see the dentist.

    15 And there were no other important events at

    16 the time because we were still waiting for the status.

    17 Until you are recognised, the refugee status, you are

    18 simply sitting there learning the language and

    19 waiting. Only when we were recognised, the refugee

    20 status, in the end of June, that is when you begin.

    21 That is, you are issued a card allowing you to work,

    22 that is, to go to an employment bureau or whatever, and

    23 all the other institutions begin to open for you, but

    24 as of the moment when you are recognised, the refugee

    25 status. So in April, nothing was happening, nothing

  50. 1was going on. We were simply waiting for that status.

    2 Q. According to the documents served by the

    3 Defence, the visits of your husband to the dentist do

    4 not refer to the period which is of interest to me.

    5 I'm interested in the period of the 15th, 16th, and

    6 17th of April, 1993. Is there any single document

    7 showing that your husband was indeed either in

    8 Amsterdam or in Holland on those dates?

    9 A. As far as I know, no. For those three days,

    10 specifically, I have no document. We were leading a

    11 normal life. I didn't know I would need anything like

    12 this. I never expected that anything like this would

    13 happen, that I would have to give you an answer as to

    14 what happened on those three days seven years ago.

    15 Q. Do you know Tomislav Alilovic?

    16 A. Yes, it is a relative of my husband's, and I

    17 have already mentioned that in Tomislav Alilovic's

    18 house, my husband had a restaurant. The house was

    19 owned by Tomislav Alilovic. I can't tell you exactly,

    20 but it's a relative. He's not a brother, but a more

    21 distant relative.

    22 Q. Where did Tomislav Alilovic live at the time?

    23 A. Which time?

    24 Q. Late '92, early '93.

    25 A. I don't know. I don't know that, because I

  51. 1was in Holland, and I had no contact with him, so I

    2 don't know.

    3 Q. Didn't you know that Tomislav Alilovic,

    4 according to information provided by a witness to the

    5 Tribunal, then used to live in northern Germany?

    6 A. For many years he did work in Germany and

    7 live there with his wife and children, and I think he's

    8 still working there. I don't know.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Mrs. Slokovic-Glumac?

    10 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you,

    11 Mr. President, but we've changed our mind about this

    12 objection. We'll wait for the Prosecutor to continue.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    14 Please go on.

    15 MR. TERRIER:

    16 Q. So you weren't without knowing that your

    17 husband's cousin, Tomislav Alilovic, then lived in

    18 northern Germany?

    19 A. I knew that for many years he had lived and

    20 worked in Germany, but we were not in close contact. I

    21 don't think I've seen him for ten years, maybe more

    22 than that. I don't know.

    23 Q. If you no longer had any contacts any more

    24 with Bosnia, that is, at least, you said, because of

    25 the lines being down, did you at least have contacts

  52. 1with Tomislav Alilovic? Because it seems that

    2 telephone lines between Holland and Germany did not

    3 make any problems then.

    4 A. My husband, during his illness in 1994 and

    5 1995, did call up Germany by phone and have contact

    6 with his relatives there. I know he contacted Karlo

    7 Alilovic frequently during his illness, but I don't

    8 know about the rest because I wasn't always at home

    9 when he was making these phone calls.

    10 Q. Therefore, to make your answer more specific,

    11 did you know at all whether your husband had any

    12 contacts with his cousin, Karlo Alilovic, at the time

    13 while his cousin was in Germany?

    14 A. No. Until December 1992, we didn't even have

    15 a telephone at home here in Amsterdam.

    16 Q. But you had the telephone after December '92,

    17 and I'm interested in the period going from

    18 December '92 to April '93. Did you know that Tomislav

    19 Alilovic, residing in Germany, your husband's cousin,

    20 returned to Ahmici on the 15th of April, in the night?

    21 A. No, absolutely not. I don't know.

    22 MR. TERRIER: I have no further questions.

    23 Thank you.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    25 Mr. Pavkovic?

  53. 1MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.

    2 Re-examined by Mr. Pavkovic:

    3 Q. Mrs. Krizanac, let me clarify a few points

    4 only. I assume that you are aware that today -- that

    5 is, 1999 -- regulations on travel in many European

    6 countries are more flexible, but that still, even

    7 today, you need to have travel documents?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. You said yes?

    10 A. Yes, of course. You have to have a

    11 passport.

    12 Q. So when, in 1992, you arrived with your

    13 husband, you must have had a travel document, a

    14 passport or whatever?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. And then, as you have explained here in

    17 court, you handed all those documents to the police

    18 together with your request for refugee status for you,

    19 your husband, and your children?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Until the end of May 1993, you were granted

    22 that status, you really could not travel even if you

    23 had wanted to?

    24 A. Yes, exactly. That is so.

    25 Q. You have shown us here a document on the

  54. 1basis of which you were able to prove your identity in

    2 the post office, in the bank, and it is issued in the

    3 name of your husband, Stipo Alilovic. Why have you

    4 shown us his document? Did you too have a document of

    5 this kind yourself?

    6 A. Yes, I received the same document myself, and

    7 I had my account in the bank and he had his. That is

    8 customary in the Netherlands.

    9 Q. Do you have on you, in addition to the

    10 document you have shown us, any other document

    11 belonging to your late husband, Stipo Alilovic?

    12 A. I have his old Yugoslav passport with which

    13 he went to Vienna and then to the Netherlands.

    14 Q. Do you have that document on you here today?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, could the usher

    17 please show us this document, and I would like

    18 Mrs. Krizanac to show this document to us.

    19 Q. Mrs. Krizanac, perhaps you know your way and

    20 this document better than I. Perhaps you could show us

    21 the stamps here.

    22 A. I know that there is a stamp there when my

    23 husband entered the Netherlands in a locality called

    24 Passau, when he was travelling by train. The train was

    25 a direct train from Vienna to Amsterdam. Then the

  55. 1police entered during the night. He showed his

    2 passport -- at least, that is what he told me -- and

    3 then they stamped the passport. The place is Passau,

    4 and the date is indicated.

    5 Q. On page 15 of this document, it says "22nd of

    6 April, 1992, Passau." Is that what you are referring

    7 to?

    8 A. Yes. The next day, on the 23rd, he was in

    9 Amsterdam.

    10 MR. PAVKOVIC: Could I ask the usher's

    11 assistance to show Their Honours this document, and of

    12 course counsel for the Prosecution and my colleagues,

    13 the Defence counsel.

    14 (Trial Chamber confers)

    15 MR. TERRIER: Your Honour, could Mr. Pavkovic

    16 specify what is to be looked at or looked into in this

    17 passport? What are the things worth looking into?

    18 Which is the reference that shows that that border was

    19 crossed on the 22nd of April?

    20 MR. PAVKOVIC: May I answer that question?

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.

    22 MR. PAVKOVIC: Actually, Mr. President, I was

    23 just commenting on what the witness said. I asked her

    24 whether that date indicated on page 15 is the date

    25 she's referring to, and she confirmed that. Perhaps

  56. 1the witness needs to look at it again. I looked at it

    2 in haste. There may be something else there. I don't

    3 know if there is anything else confirming what she has

    4 just said.

    5 MR. TERRIER: (No interpretation)

    6 JUDGE MAY: We have French interpretation.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Apparently there was a wrong

    8 channel. Sorry.

    9 MR. TERRIER:

    10 Q. So there was no stamp. I was saying that on

    11 page 15 of this passport, there is no official stamp,

    12 there is no official marking by the border police.

    13 There is only one ballpoint mention, handwritten, of

    14 the 22nd of April, 1992, followed by CPS Passau, BMF.

    15 That's all there is.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, but this stamp can be

    17 found on the next page, or on the other page, can't

    18 it? Can you see "1992"? Isn't that a stamp?

    19 MR. TERRIER: On page 14 you can see three

    20 stamps, and there, indeed, you can see the date of

    21 1992. But I'm in no position of saying what that

    22 refers to.

    23 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, after the other

    24 Defence counsel examine this passport, could we give

    25 the passport again to the witness for her to look at

  57. 1it, whether we are talking about the same thing?

    2 Q. Madam, could you tell me whether your

    3 husband, Stipo, in addition to this passport, had any

    4 other passports in those days? Or is this the passport

    5 you are talking about?

    6 A. This is the passport with which he came to

    7 Holland and which was handed to the police for aliens

    8 when we requested refugee status. The police kept this

    9 document. The moment we were granted refugee status,

    10 all our documents were returned to us, including this

    11 passport.

    12 Q. So at the end of May or June '93, you

    13 received this passport; in the meantime, it was kept by

    14 the police?

    15 A. Yes, this document was returned to the owner

    16 at the end of June 1993.

    17 Q. Thank you. Let me now go on to a few other

    18 questions. The Prosecutor asked you about the property

    19 that you own, you personally, and the property you had

    20 in those days, as well as the property of your

    21 husband. You told us here in court that you go there

    22 occasionally even now but that you have no problems

    23 there, which means you never had any problems with this

    24 property either?

    25 A. No.

  58. 1Q. The Prosecutor showed you a decision relating

    2 to the territory of Travnik municipality, and he asked

    3 you whether your property, the property we are talking

    4 about, was confiscated. Is there any reason why that

    5 property should be confiscated?

    6 A. No. None at all.

    7 Q. You told us here that in this time frame from

    8 December '92 until May '93, you received welfare, that

    9 you were assisted by your neighbours, and that you also

    10 received aid from the Pula catering establishment that

    11 you worked in. You said that your husband did not have

    12 any job and had no other resources. Were you fully

    13 aware of the earnings of your husband?

    14 A. Yes, absolutely.

    15 Q. The Prosecutor also asked you whether you and

    16 your husband had documents showing that on the 15th,

    17 16th, and 17th of April, 1993, both of you were in

    18 Amsterdam.

    19 A. I have no documents, but I'm confirming here

    20 in court that we were here.

    21 Q. My question is: Do you have any documents

    22 showing that you were not in Amsterdam?

    23 A. No.

    24 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you. I have no further

    25 questions. Thank you, Your Honours.

  59. 1JUDGE CASSESE: We have no questions. Mrs.

    2 Krizanac, thank you so much for giving evidence in

    3 court. You may now be released.

    4 Counsel Pavkovic?

    5 MR. PAVKOVIC: I apologise, Mr. President. I

    6 had intended to suggest something else.

    7 I think it would be a good idea if this

    8 Chamber were to have in the record these two documents

    9 in their original form, that is, the passport and the

    10 document of the bank that the witness showed us. We

    11 assume that the witness will say that these are dear

    12 mementos, so if the Chamber could accept a copy and if

    13 the Prosecution has no objection, I would suggest that

    14 these documents be photocopied and admitted into

    15 evidence as Defence exhibits.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Prosecutor?

    17 MR. TERRIER: No objection to this request

    18 personally. I would like to put into evidence

    19 Prosecutor's Exhibit 358 which we mentioned earlier

    20 on.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I see no

    22 objection from the Defence counsel to the tendering

    23 into evidence of P358. So I can't see any objection,

    24 so all these documents are admitted into evidence, and

    25 in particular the photocopies you mentioned. Thank

  60. 1you.

    2 So I will go back to the witness. Madam,

    3 thank you so much for giving evidence. You may now be

    4 released.

    5 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

    6 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I'm reminded by

    7 my colleague that this Prosecutor's Exhibit 358 could

    8 be objected to. That is, we would ask that it not be

    9 admitted for two reasons; first, because it doesn't

    10 apply to the municipality of Vitez but rather to the

    11 municipality of Travnik, and, secondly, these documents

    12 were issued in '99, and it follows from them that Stipo

    13 Alilovic is the owner of certain immovable property,

    14 and it is clear that he died in 1995.

    15 So these documents are outdated and

    16 unreliable, and that is why we object to their

    17 admission, at least as far as these documents are

    18 concerned.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: This document was produced on

    20 the 12th of February of '93. I'm relating to the

    21 Travnik main document. You said "'99."

    22 MR. PAVKOVIC: Yes, but I'm also talking --

    23 that document was issued in '93, but it applies to

    24 Travnik and not Vitez. These other documents, the

    25 property occupancy certificates, were issued in 1999.

  61. 1JUDGE CASSESE: I don't understand.

    2 MR. PAVKOVIC: I'm not sure whether you have

    3 all the documents that we have. Obviously, you don't

    4 have all of them. So you only have the decision of the

    5 HVO of Travnik municipality?


    7 MR. PAVKOVIC: But you don't have all the

    8 documents that have been tendered as part of Exhibit

    9 P358?

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, we have just been handed

    11 those documents you were referring to, and, yes, they

    12 were produced in 1999. You were right. So could you

    13 please repeat your objection to those additional

    14 documents?

    15 MR. PAVKOVIC: This document entitled

    16 "Occupancy Certificate" or, rather, "Property

    17 Certificate," was issued in 1999, and it emanates from

    18 it that among others, the owner is Stipo Alilovic, son

    19 of Pero. So in 1999, reference is made to an owner of

    20 whom we know, without any doubt, that he died in 1995.

    21 So it's a document that is outdated and doesn't point

    22 to the proper conclusions. In other words, the owner

    23 is a person who died several years previously, so the

    24 document is not reliable, in our view. Of course, it

    25 is up to you to assess it. I don't know what purpose

  62. 1it can serve.

    2 MR. TERRIER: A very short observation, if

    3 I'm allowed.

    4 I had indeed served these documents to the

    5 Defence. They show that Stipo Alilovic and the witness

    6 were owners of real estate property in Santici and in

    7 the area, in that area of Central Bosnia. This was not

    8 challenged by the witness. Therefore, I believe that

    9 these documents are not that useful, and of course I

    10 shall defer to the Tribunal's decision.

    11 They were created on the 20th of April, 1992,

    12 and they mentioned property owned by Stipo Alilovic.

    13 That doesn't seem much of a problem to me, inasmuch as

    14 mention was not made of his death, and the mention

    15 relating to the legacy settlement was not communicated

    16 to the relevant services in Bosnia. I only attach

    17 relative pertinence or relevance to this document

    18 because the witness did not challenge that the property

    19 was, well, the family's property, and that was the

    20 thing that mattered to me.

    21 Let us mention another document, the one

    22 drafted by the HVO on the 12th of February, 1993, in

    23 Travnik. I do not claim that the document was drafted

    24 by the Vitez HVO. I presented the document as a

    25 document being made in Travnik, and I asked the witness

  63. 1whether this rang a bell in the witness's mind. I do

    2 not claim anything else, as far as this document is

    3 concerned. I submitted it to the witness.

    4 The document was drafted in compliance with

    5 the then legislation in the Bosnian Croatian community,

    6 and as such, it does have some relevance. If that came

    7 to be necessary, we would have to prove that a similar

    8 document had been drafted for the Vitez municipality or

    9 that this document, related to Travnik, also applied to

    10 Vitez.

    11 The document is what it is at face value. I

    12 do not claim that it is anything else. It was

    13 established by the Travnik municipality, it was

    14 submitted to the witness, and the witness said that she

    15 had never heard of it. That's all.

    16 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, if I may be

    17 allowed another brief comment.

    18 In the first place, I have to say to the

    19 Prosecutor that the documents he's referring to, and I

    20 am referring to the property documents, do not talk

    21 about property, as he says. They talk about

    22 ownership. At least those of us belonging to the area

    23 know the distinction.

    24 As for the other document, I have already

    25 said why I felt that it was not relevant as an exhibit

  64. 1in this case, because to see whether there is any

    2 unified legislation for the whole area of Bosnia, that

    3 is another matter. We're talking about Vitez.

    4 That is all I would have to say. Thank you.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel

    6 Slokovic-Glumac?

    7 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, just one

    8 sentence linked to this document which was apparently

    9 issued by the Travnik HVO. I would like to note that

    10 the witness did not recognise that document at all.

    11 She didn't recognise it in contents, nor the author,

    12 nor the signature. Therefore, she knows nothing about

    13 that document. On these grounds, I feel that it cannot

    14 be admitted into evidence, and still less can any

    15 analogy be made, mentioned by the Prosecutor, that

    16 there may have been a similar document in Vitez

    17 municipality.

    18 Therefore, we really do feel that this

    19 document cannot be admitted.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Before ruling on this matter,

    21 may I ask two questions of Defence counsel? First of

    22 all, you made a distinction between ownership and

    23 property. Could you clarify this matter?

    24 Secondly, could you clarify why, in the

    25 certificates of occupancy, mention is made of Cadastral

  65. 1county, Travnik, and then Cadastral municipality,

    2 Ahmici? What is the relation between Ahmici and

    3 Travnik? Does Ahmici belong to Travnik? Does it come

    4 within the purview of Travnik, from the viewpoint of

    5 Cadastral matters?

    6 Two questions, therefore.

    7 MR. PAVKOVIC: First, your question of

    8 ownership.

    9 This document, issued by the Cadastral office

    10 and a document that would prove ownership, would have

    11 been issued by the competent court or its land

    12 registrar where data are kept on ownership and on

    13 property, similarly on all the liabilities stemming

    14 from that property. So the competent court issues a

    15 document on ownership or, rather, its department for

    16 land registry, where the books are kept, and they issue

    17 the certificates. These lands ownership books are

    18 public documents, and everyone is free to access them.

    19 At the same time, owners may be possessors

    20 and they may not be possessors or owners, especially if

    21 the situation is not regular, because someone may sell

    22 or give away his property as a gift without that

    23 procedure being registered in the appropriate

    24 documents, so that in the land registrars you will find

    25 the name of one person as the owner, and the use of

  66. 1that property may be held by another person. That,

    2 unfortunately, is the reality in the areas in which we

    3 live, and not only there.

    4 As for this document -- oh, there was another

    5 question, I'm sorry, the question of the municipality

    6 and the municipal court in Vitez. They have the land

    7 registers where the property is registered for the

    8 municipality of Vitez, and there is a Cadastral

    9 department there and, in this connection, also fiscal

    10 bodies, and this has nothing to do with property

    11 registered somewhere else because that property is

    12 registered over there.

    13 If I am looking for data about my property, I

    14 have to address all those bodies or, rather, courts on

    15 whose territory that property is situated. Then I will

    16 receive full, complete data about my total property.

    17 I'm referring to immovable property, land, forests,

    18 houses.

    19 To sum up, this document just shows that

    20 Stipo Alilovic as well as this witness, in those days,

    21 I suppose, and are still now registered as the owners

    22 of this immovable property. Whether they actually had

    23 the right of use of that property is another matter.

    24 We have to look through the land registers in the

    25 competent courts to see this. If any decision were to

  67. 1be taken on confiscation or seizure, it would have to

    2 be based on seizing something from somebody that was

    3 the actual owner, and we would have to verify whether

    4 they were the real owners.

    5 I'm not sure that I have been very clear.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    7 (Trial Chamber deliberates)

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. In light of the various

    9 explanations given, we have decided to admit these

    10 documents into evidence. It will, of course, be for

    11 the Court to decide upon the probative value, if any,

    12 of these documents. So they are admitted into

    13 evidence.

    14 Again I would like to thank the witness for

    15 her patience, and she may now be released.

    16 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, but we have not

    17 decided yet whether we shall keep the original

    18 documents or shall we make a copy of them.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: A copy, because the witness

    20 has, of course, the right to keep the original for

    21 obvious psychological reasons. Photocopies, yes.

    22 MR. PAVKOVIC: Yes, yes, that's what I

    23 thought. Thank you.

    24 (The witness withdrew)

    25 THE REGISTRAR: The Post Bank ID will be C10,

  68. 1and Mrs. Krizanac's passport will be C11.

    2 MR. TERRIER: Your Honour, for things to be

    3 clear, in Prosecutor's Exhibit 358, you have got the

    4 four certificates of occupancy and also the HVO

    5 decision regarding the Travnik municipality.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: The witness, I think it's

    7 Mr. Simovic.

    8 THE INTERPRETER: "Did you mention the

    9 passport," says the Presiding Judge, turning to the

    10 Court Deputy.

    11 THE REGISTRAR: The passport of who?

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: No, the passport of the

    13 husband -- no, for Marie.

    14 All right. So shall we bring in

    15 Mr. Simovic?

    16 (The witness entered court)

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Mr. Simovic. I

    18 would like to ask you to make the solemn declaration.

    19 THE WITNESS: Good morning. I solemnly

    20 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

    21 and nothing but the truth.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you so much. You may

    23 sit down.

    24 Counsel Krajina?


  69. 1MR. KRAJINA: Thank you, Mr. President.

    2 Examined by Mr. Krajina:

    3 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Simovic.

    4 A. Good afternoon.

    5 Q. Will you please tell us your name first and

    6 your last name, the year of your birth, and what is

    7 your place of residence?

    8 A. My name is Radoslav Simovic, born on the 29th

    9 of November, 1931, born in Citluk, a place in

    10 Herzegovina, and I live now in Baska Voda, near

    11 Makarska. It is about 50 kilometres from Split, to the

    12 east.

    13 Q. Thank you. What are you?

    14 A. I own a restaurant/pub. I mean tourism,

    15 anything to do with catering, restaurant, hostelry

    16 business.

    17 Q. Thank you. You told us you live in Baska

    18 Voda. Where is Baska Voda, what state?

    19 A. It is in Croatia.

    20 Q. I see, in Croatia. How far is Baska Voda

    21 from Vitez?

    22 A. It is some 200 kilometres from Vitez.

    23 Q. And from Split?

    24 A. From Split, it is 50 kilometres away.

    25 Q. Thank you. I shall slow down, and I shall

  70. 1also ask you to slow down for the sake of the

    2 interpreters.

    3 A. Yeah, I see. All right.

    4 Q. Will you please tell us -- you told us you

    5 were in the hostelry business. Do you have a house, a

    6 flat? What do you have?

    7 A. I have a house. I have a house in Baska

    8 Voda; 15 rooms, 40 beds. There are three beds to a

    9 room. It is about a hundred metres from the coast.

    10 Q. Thank you. When did you go to live in Baska

    11 Voda?

    12 A. I went there before the war. It must have

    13 been sometime in '87 or thereabouts when I went to live

    14 there.

    15 Q. Thank you. Where did you live before that?

    16 A. Before that, I again had a coffee pub at the

    17 mouth of the Lasva River into the Bosna River.

    18 Q. I see. Thank you. Do you know Vlatko

    19 Kupreskic?

    20 A. I know Vlatko Kupreskic.

    21 Q. How well do you know him?

    22 A. I know him very well indeed. I know both him

    23 and his family, his relative, Ivica.

    24 Q. Since when have you known Vlatko?

    25 A. Over ten years, must be. I wouldn't know

  71. 1exactly, but it must be over ten years. I reckon that

    2 is how long I've known him.

    3 Q. I see. During all the time that you knew

    4 him, on what kind of terms were you? Were you

    5 acquaintances or good friends or what?

    6 A. Well, we were on very good, friendly terms,

    7 particularly with his relative, with his cousin Ivica,

    8 with whom we had two outlets on two sides of Zenica.

    9 That is where we worked, and we knew one another and

    10 visited one another and so on.

    11 Q. I see. You said "Ivica." What is his

    12 surname?

    13 A. Kupreskic, Ivica Kupreskic.

    14 Q. Right. Could you tell us if, in 1993 and

    15 otherwise before the war, on the eve of the war, if

    16 Vlatko came to Croatia, did he drop by to see you or

    17 so?

    18 A. Yes. I used to see him when Ivica and

    19 Ivica's wife and he came, and Ivica's wife came from

    20 some foreign country, I believe it was from Germany,

    21 and that is when they came.

    22 Q. They came to your place?

    23 A. Yes, they came to me, and it was as the sun

    24 was setting in Baska Voda.

    25 Q. Why did they come?

  72. 1A. Well, they came to spend the night there.

    2 Q. And did they?

    3 A. Yes, they did spend the night there, and they

    4 left early in the morning.

    5 Q. Right. Will you tell us, do you remember how

    6 they came and where did they come from?

    7 A. They came from Split.

    8 Q. From Split. Did they tell you what business

    9 they had in Split? Why did they go to Split?

    10 A. Well, they went to meet that woman, Ivica's

    11 wife. They went to meet her, and that was already late

    12 in the night, and so they came to my place and they

    13 spent the night there.

    14 Q. Right. Will you tell us -- we have to wait

    15 for the interpretation.

    16 Do you remember, what means of transport did

    17 they use?

    18 A. They had a Yugo.

    19 Q. What is it, a car?

    20 A. Yes, it's a car.

    21 Q. Right. Do you remember when it was exactly?

    22 A. It was in the evening of the 14th. On the

    23 15th in the morning, they left, and the war in Bosnia

    24 ensued right away.

    25 Q. Good. Tell us then, you told us they arrived

  73. 1on the 14th?

    2 A. Yes, in the evening.

    3 Q. And spent the night?

    4 A. And spent the night.

    5 Q. When did they leave?

    6 A. They left around 6.00 or 7.00 in the morning.

    7 Q. Did all three of them leave?

    8 A. Yes, all three of them.

    9 Q. By that car?

    10 A. Yes, by that car.

    11 Q. Could you tell us also how is it that it

    12 stuck in your memory it was the night between the 14th

    13 and the 15th?

    14 A. Well, I remembered. I really wanted to

    15 know. I had a son who worked in Zenica at the fire

    16 brigade, and there was also another one held the coffee

    17 pub that I used to run once and he was running now, and

    18 therefore I wanted to know what was going on with them.

    19 Q. You told us that the next day, the war broke

    20 out?

    21 A. Yes, the war broke out. The roads were

    22 closed down, and there was no way --

    23 Q. And how did you find out?

    24 A. Well, I saw it all in the media. Television

    25 and radio and all this had them on, and that was that.

  74. 1Q. That is why you remember that date?

    2 A. Yes, that is why I remember that date very

    3 well indeed.

    4 Q. Right. Will you tell us also if you saw

    5 Vlatko after that?

    6 A. Yes, I did see him after that on various

    7 occasions.

    8 Q. How many times, when was that?

    9 A. Well, a few years after the war. I don't

    10 remember exactly, but he came to see me, as I did see

    11 him.

    12 Q. Right. Tell me, when they spent that evening

    13 with you, do you remember what the conversation was

    14 about?

    15 A. Well, we had a normal conversation, a

    16 friendly one. We had our dinner, had a drink or two,

    17 and in the morning my wife saw them off to Bosnia, to

    18 Vitez.

    19 MR. PAVKOVIC: I see. Right. Thank you.

    20 Thank you very much, Mr. Simovic.

    21 I have no further questions, Mr. President.

    22 Thank you.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you for being so

    24 concise, and we can now take a 15-minute break.

    25 --- Recess taken at 12.15 a.m.

  75. 1--- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

    2 Cross-examination by Mr. Terrier:

    3 Q. I shall try and be as brief as Mr. Krajina

    4 was. Could you tell us, before the war or since the

    5 war, did you have any professional relationship with

    6 the accused Vlatko Kupreskic or with his family?

    7 A. No, I just knew them. That was all.

    8 Q. Witness, as of 1987, you ran a hotel in Baska

    9 Voda, and you said that you had some 15 rooms in that

    10 hotel; is that so?

    11 A. (No translation)

    12 Q. What were the patrons, the customers, in

    13 late '92, early '93? What kind of people would come

    14 and put up at your hotel?

    15 A. Well, anyone could come to my hotel. The

    16 peak season was from the 1st of June until the 30th of

    17 September. After that, it would be cold; winter would

    18 come.

    19 Q. As a hotel owner, didn't you have to keep a

    20 book in which you mentioned everybody staying for the

    21 night in your hotel?

    22 A. Yes, but earlier on, I used to work with

    23 companies, with firms. I would rent them rooms, and

    24 they would keep track of the names of the guests and

    25 how long they stayed, for their employees.

  76. 1Q. I'm sorry, my question was as follows: You,

    2 as a hotel owner, you had, didn't you, you had the

    3 obligation, for the police or revenue purposes, you had

    4 to keep a register, a book, in which you mentioned the

    5 names of every guest? Wasn't that one of your

    6 obligations?

    7 A. Off season.

    8 Q. Could you be more specific? Did you have

    9 such obligations during the season, or off season, or

    10 what was the situation?

    11 A. Off season.

    12 Q. In other words, you are telling us that when

    13 it wasn't high season or shoulder, you didn't have to

    14 keep a book, a log, whilst you had such obligations

    15 when it was the season?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Therefore, you mentioned the fact that Vlatko

    18 Kupreskic, Ivica Kupreskic, and Vlatko's wife were at

    19 the hotel nowhere, in no document whatsoever?

    20 A. I have no written document, because other

    21 people who would stay as friends would never fill in

    22 any forms.

    23 Q. Do you remember if Vlatko Kupreskic was put

    24 up only once, or several times, in your hotel?

    25 A. Several times.

  77. 1Q. So he visited you several times, did he?

    2 A. (No interpretation)

    3 Q. Could you tell us more specifically when he

    4 came, and whether he was always together with Ivica

    5 Kupreskic, and how frequent their visits were?

    6 A. They usually occurred in the off-season

    7 months. They would travel on business, and how do I

    8 know what are the reasons he had to travel? And he

    9 would drop by.

    10 Q. Let us mention the first months of 1993. Do

    11 you remember whether Vlatko Kupreskic visited you on

    12 several occasions in those first months of 1993, and if

    13 there were such visits, how frequent they were?

    14 A. No, just the last time he came, on the 14th,

    15 when the war was on in Bosnia, he visited me, and he

    16 spent the night with Ivica and Ivica's wife as well.

    17 Q. So he was there on the 14th of April; when

    18 else did he visit you?

    19 A. I cannot remember him coming at all in that

    20 period.

    21 Q. Witness, I'd like us to understand each other

    22 properly. You said just a moment ago that Vlatko

    23 Kupreskic visited you several times. When, exactly,

    24 did he visit you? Could you be more specific? If you

    25 can't remember, well, let us know, equally.

  78. 1A. He always came in the off-season months, that

    2 is, during the winter and the like.

    3 Q. Here is my ensuing question: In the winter

    4 following April 1993, did Vlatko Kupreskic visit you?

    5 Did he do so on several occasions? How frequent were

    6 the visits? Was he together with Ivica Kupreskic, or

    7 would he travel alone?

    8 A. I don't remember at all. All I remember is

    9 this one time that he came, and that was on the 14th

    10 and the 15th, when Ivica and his wife were with him. I

    11 can't remember whether he came again in the course of

    12 that year or not.

    13 Q. So let's make things clear, because I have

    14 the feeling that your answers to my question are

    15 somewhat vague. You perfectly remember Vlatko's,

    16 Ivica's, and Ivica's wife's visit on the 14th of April,

    17 1993. You remember that visit perfectly well.

    18 However, you have no memory whatsoever of other visits

    19 they may have made to you?

    20 A. I don't remember any other visit. I didn't

    21 take note of it, nor did I record it anywhere, because

    22 I have an apartment there, I have my family, and they

    23 would come to visit, but not during the season. During

    24 the season, a record is kept of people who come.

    25 Q. Do you know that Vlatko Kupreskic would go

  79. 1rather frequently to Croatia?

    2 A. I don't know. I can't remember. I don't

    3 know that he came often. He may have gone somewhere

    4 else, but he didn't come to see me. How could I know?

    5 Q. Would you know where he might have gone if he

    6 wasn't going to visit you?

    7 A. I couldn't know. I couldn't say. I don't

    8 know who else he had.

    9 Q. Witness, since you have only very dim

    10 memories of the period before April '93, since you kept

    11 no written trace or track of your visitors in the

    12 off-season period, how can you be so sure when it comes

    13 to the date of the 14th or 15th of April 1993?

    14 A. I can remember because there was a war in

    15 Bosnia, and it was not possible to travel. I had two

    16 sons in Bosnia, one in Zenica, one in Lasva, some 15

    17 kilometres away, where there was a coffee bar, and I

    18 was interested because of my children more than

    19 anything else.

    20 Q. Do you remember whether Ivica Kupreskic

    21 mentioned to you the state of war that was prevailing

    22 in Central Bosnia at the time? Well, it might have

    23 been Ivica or Vlatko Kupreskic.

    24 A. I can't remember them telling me anything.

    25 Q. You told us that they travelled in a Yugo 45

  80. 1car?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Was there anything striking or unusual about

    4 that car that you would have noticed?

    5 A. I really can't remember. It was an ordinary

    6 car.

    7 Q. Did you notice whether it was a fully-loaded

    8 or heavily-loaded car?

    9 A. I couldn't remember that. My apartment is on

    10 the fourth floor of the building, and I didn't even go

    11 down. They came upstairs, they parked the car in the

    12 garage, and that's all.

    13 Q. Did they use a telephone from your hotel?

    14 Did they phone to Bosnia?

    15 A. I'm not sure whether I had a telephone in the

    16 house at the time. I can't remember.

    17 Q. Do you remember whether you had a chat with

    18 them?

    19 A. Yes, we talked normally, just like any other

    20 people.

    21 Q. Would you remember what you talked about?

    22 A. I don't remember. Just like one would talk

    23 to people one knew, we sat together, had dinner, talked

    24 about everything. Nothing in particular, nothing

    25 specific. We just chatted like comrades.

  81. 1Q. You said earlier on, but could you say it

    2 again, because I'm not sure I understood very well:

    3 You told us that you then had a son, and that he ran a

    4 restaurant in Zenica; is that so?

    5 A. Yes. Close to Zenica, on the road outside

    6 Zenica.

    7 Q. You also stated that you kept in touch with

    8 your son in Zenica?

    9 A. No. I couldn't when the war started. Before

    10 that, I was in touch with him, of course, because I

    11 helped him to run the facility.

    12 Q. This will be my last question, witness. So

    13 given the dates when Vlatko, Ivica Kupreskic were put

    14 up at your hotel, had the war already started then or

    15 not?

    16 A. No.

    17 Q. As far as you can remember, when after that

    18 date did the war start?

    19 A. That same day, the next day, officially.

    20 Q. And how did you hear of this?

    21 A. I learned it from the television reports.

    22 Ivica wouldn't have brought his wife from another

    23 country if he knew that there was a war. He brought

    24 her as if it were normal, as if there was no war. How

    25 do I know what happened afterwards?

  82. 1MR. TERRIER: I have no further questions.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    3 Mr. Krajina?

    4 MR. KRAJINA: Thank you, Mr. President.

    5 Re-examined by Mr. Krajina:

    6 Q. Let us just clarify one point. My learned

    7 friend, the Prosecutor, used on several occasions the

    8 word "hotel" as if it was a real hotel -- just a

    9 moment, please, just a moment. Hear me out.

    10 The Prosecutor spoke about a hotel. My

    11 question is, do you own a hotel -- you know what a

    12 hotel is -- or do you own a house in which you rent

    13 rooms for tourists?

    14 A. A house.

    15 Q. Is that a hotel?

    16 A. No. It's not a hotel, but it is quite big.

    17 There are 15 rooms.

    18 Q. Does it say "Hotel" on it?

    19 A. No. It's considered private accommodation.

    20 MR. KRAJINA: Thank you. I have no further

    21 questions.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    23 We have no questions. Mr. Simovic, thank you

    24 so much for coming.

    25 I assume there is no objection to the witness

  83. 1being released, so therefore the witness may now be

    2 released. Thank you.

    3 (The witness withdrew)

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: We may move on to our next

    5 witness.

    6 (The witness entered court)

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning,

    8 Mrs. Kupreskic. Will you please make the solemn

    9 declaration.

    10 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    12 truth.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    14 seated.

    15 Counsel Par?


    17 Examined by Mr. Par:

    18 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Kupreskic.

    19 A. Good afternoon.

    20 Q. Will you first of all introduce yourself,

    21 tell the Court your name, when and where you were born,

    22 and your occupation.

    23 A. My name is Ljubica Kupreskic. I am the wife

    24 of the unfairly accused Vlatko Kupreskic. I was born

    25 on the 5th of April, 1962, in a place called Jardol,

  84. 1Vitez municipality.

    2 Q. How long have you been married to Vlatko?

    3 A. With the innocently accused Vlatko Kupreskic,

    4 I have been since 1982.

    5 Q. Will you please not repeat this phrase,

    6 "innocently accused." Just answer the questions

    7 directly.

    8 How many children do you have?

    9 A. We have two children, a 16-year-old daughter

    10 and a son of 12.

    11 Q. Could you tell us how long you have been

    12 living in Pirici?

    13 A. I have been living in Pirici since I joined

    14 the Kupreskic family, that is, in 1982, and I am still

    15 living there to this day.

    16 Q. Could you tell us who owns this house? Is it

    17 Vlatko's house or his father's house?

    18 A. Both the old and the new house is in Vlatko's

    19 father's name, because when we built the new house, all

    20 of us together moved into the new house, from the old

    21 house into the new house.

    22 Q. On the 16th of April, 1993, who was living in

    23 that house?

    24 A. Vlatko's parents, I, Vlatko, and our two

    25 children.

  85. 1Q. So you lived in an enlarged family with

    2 Vlatko's parents, or did you have two separate

    3 households?

    4 A. We lived together with Vlatko's parents. It

    5 was a single household.

    6 Q. Would you please give us the names of your

    7 nearest neighbours, first the Croats and then the

    8 Muslims.

    9 A. My nearest neighbours, Croats, are Mirko

    10 Vidovic, Gordana and Milko Vidovic, Stipan Vidovic,

    11 Ivica Kupreskic, Zoran Kupreskic, Anto Kupreskic,

    12 Mirjan Kupreskic, Ivo Kupreskic. My nearest Muslim

    13 neighbours are Sakib Ahmic, Sukrija Ahmic, Ramiz

    14 Gradinovic, Sabahudin Muratovic, Ismail Pezer, Sulejman

    15 Pezer.

    16 Q. I should now like us to focus on the period

    17 from 1992 until the conflict of the 16th of April '93.

    18 So could you please tell us, in that period, '92/93,

    19 what was Vlatko doing?

    20 A. In the period from '92 to '93, Vlatko was in

    21 trade. He worked in the private company Sutre,

    22 together with his cousin, Ivica Kupreskic.

    23 Q. In that period, did Vlatko engage in any

    24 political activities? What I mean is, did he become a

    25 member of any political party? Was he politically

  86. 1active? Did he speak in public or was he politically

    2 committed in any way?

    3 A. Vlatko never -- was never politically

    4 active. He was never a member of any party.

    5 Q. In that same period, '92/93, did anything

    6 change in terms of his attitude towards the Muslims who

    7 were your neighbours and customers?

    8 A. Vlatko's attitude never changed in relation

    9 to anyone, either the Muslims or the Serbs, his

    10 customers or his neighbours. His attitude was always

    11 the same. It was a correct attitude. He never

    12 distinguished people by their nationality but by their

    13 qualities, whether they were good or bad people.

    14 Q. Tell us, was Vlatko mobilised in that period?

    15 A. No, he was not mobilised.

    16 Q. Was there any reason for that? Had he served

    17 in the army?

    18 A. Vlatko did not serve in the former Yugoslavia

    19 army because he is a heart patient. He is 100 per cent

    20 disabled, and for that, he was released from the duty

    21 of serving in the army.

    22 Q. Talking about this disease, do you know what

    23 kind of ailment he has? And my additional question

    24 would be: Could you tell us how this disease manifests

    25 itself in everyday life?

  87. 1A. The heart trouble that Vlatko has is

    2 manifested in such a way that he gets tired quickly,

    3 that his palms perspire. He is not resilient to

    4 physical effort.

    5 Q. Do you know the diagnosis?

    6 A. I don't know, but I know the symptoms because

    7 I've been living with him, and I know them very well.

    8 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether Vlatko in

    9 those days, '92/93, participated in the village guards?

    10 A. No, Vlatko never participated in village

    11 guards.

    12 Q. In that period, did Vlatko have any kind of

    13 weapon?

    14 A. No, Vlatko did not have a weapon in that

    15 period.

    16 Q. I should now like to ask you, for us, to

    17 focus on the 14th, 15th, and 16th of March 1993, that

    18 is, prior to the conflict in Ahmici. Do you recall

    19 what Vlatko was doing on the 14th and 15th of April

    20 1993, that is, two days prior to the conflict in

    21 Ahmici?

    22 A. Yes, I do remember.

    23 Q. Could you tell us, please, in brief?

    24 A. Yes. On the 14th of April, 1993, Vlatko went

    25 on a business trip together with Ivica Kupreskic to

  88. 1Split.

    2 Q. In view of the fact that we have had occasion

    3 to hear quite a bit about this trip, I will only ask

    4 you a couple of questions specifically related to that

    5 business trip.

    6 Do you know when Vlatko left on this trip?

    7 A. Yes, I do know exactly. He left on the 14th

    8 of April, early in the morning.

    9 Q. Didn't he leave on the 13th? Could it be the

    10 13th, because Vlatko said so on one occasion? Will you

    11 please think about that?

    12 A. He did not leave on the 13th, because on the

    13 official order, there is the date of the 13th, and it

    14 was usually the date on the eve of anybody's business

    15 trip. That was the order for the business trip that

    16 was issued by the municipality. It was always the

    17 previous date to the date of the travel.

    18 Q. How can you be so sure it was the 14th?

    19 A. I can be sure because I know that Ivica

    20 Kupreskic's wife was coming back from Germany and that

    21 the plane was to land down in Split around 1.00, and

    22 that is how I remember.

    23 Q. We are still on that business trip. With

    24 whom did Vlatko go off, and what means of

    25 transportation did he take?

  89. 1A. Vlatko set off with Ivica Kupreskic, who was

    2 the manager of the Sutre company, and they took the

    3 car, the Yugo 45.

    4 Q. Could you tell us, when did he come back?

    5 A. He returned from the business trip on the

    6 15th of April, '93, around 7.00.

    7 Q. And who came back with him?

    8 A. Ivica Kupreskic and his wife, Ankica

    9 Kupreskic, came back with him.

    10 Q. Do you know if Vlatko brought some

    11 merchandise with him?

    12 A. Yes, I know that he did bring some

    13 merchandise with him.

    14 Q. Could you tell us what?

    15 A. It was fabrics or, rather, clothes. There

    16 were jeans, children's jeans, and underwear.

    17 Q. Do you know what one was supposed to do with

    18 that merchandise?

    19 A. Yes, I do know what one was supposed to do

    20 with that merchandise. Part of this had been ordered

    21 for Travnik for Mr. Nevzudin Filipovic.

    22 Q. Will you please tell us, how is it that you

    23 know that?

    24 A. Vlatko told me that Nevzudin had ordered some

    25 merchandise from him.

  90. 1Q. Will you tell us who Nevzudin Filipovic is?

    2 A. Nevzudin Filipovic married Vlatko's sister,

    3 so he is our brother-in-law.

    4 Q. Did they have a shop or what?

    5 A. Yes, they had a shop in Travnik. It was

    6 called Private Company Lasva.

    7 Q. Right. We're finished with this business

    8 trip now.

    9 Will you please tell us, what did you

    10 personally do that day, the 15th of April, the day

    11 before the conflict at Ahmici?

    12 A. On the 15th of April, '93, I was taking my

    13 driving test with the automotive society in Vitez, and

    14 it was at 16.00, that is, at 4.00 in the afternoon.

    15 Q. You're saying that you took your driving

    16 test?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. So when you came back from the test, when was

    19 it?

    20 A. I came home around 6.00 in the afternoon.

    21 Q. On the 15th of April?

    22 A. On the 15th of April.

    23 Q. Then did you, around your house or around the

    24 shop, did you see anything out of the ordinary? Did

    25 you see any soldiers? Did perhaps some soldiers come

  91. 1or something that was out of the ordinary? Did you see

    2 anything?

    3 A. I did not see anything out of the ordinary.

    4 It was like any other day. I know that that day my

    5 daughter went to school there in Ahmici. All the

    6 children were at school. There was nothing unusual.

    7 It was like all the previous days.

    8 Q. Did any member of your family tell you

    9 perhaps that that day soldiers appeared in the house or

    10 in the shop?

    11 A. No, nobody told me. If anything like that

    12 had happened, they would have presumably told me.

    13 Q. The night between the 15th and the 16th of

    14 April, was that a quiet night? Rather, my question is

    15 how did you pass that night at home and who was at home

    16 that night?

    17 A. Well, that night was quiet, like any other

    18 night, and we were there. So Vlatko's parents, Vlatko,

    19 myself and our children were in the house.

    20 Q. Some witnesses testified that that night, the

    21 lights were switched on at your house during the

    22 night. Could you tell us something about that?

    23 A. I don't know that anybody switched on the

    24 lights that night. Children may have got up.

    25 Q. But was there any reason? Did somebody move

  92. 1around, switching on the lights?

    2 A. Well, I myself did not get up and did not

    3 switch on the lights. I know nothing about that.

    4 Q. Right. We've now moved on to the 16th of

    5 April, '93.

    6 Mrs. Kupreskic, could you tell us what woke

    7 you up on the 16th of April, '93?

    8 A. On the 16th of April, '93, I was woken up by

    9 a telephone call.

    10 Q. Will you please tell us, as of that telephone

    11 call, what happened then?

    12 A. Well, the telephone rang, and I got up and

    13 answered. It was a male voice which told me to go to

    14 the shelter. But I did not take it seriously, I

    15 thought it was a provocation, and then I went back to

    16 bed.

    17 THE INTERPRETER: Right. We could not hear

    18 what the counsel said to the witness.

    19 A. So the telephone rang again, and a male voice

    20 once again saying, "What are you waiting for? Why

    21 don't you go to the shelter?" I asked, "Who is it,"

    22 but he would not introduce himself.

    23 Then I called Vlatko. Vlatko answered the

    24 phone, but then he also went back to bed together with

    25 me, and he said, "Oh, forget it. It's a provocation."

  93. 1Then less than 15 minutes or so later, the

    2 telephone rang once again, and I told Vlatko to get up

    3 and answer it, but he refused to. But since the

    4 telephone went on ringing, I got up, and there was

    5 Ivica Kupreskic on the phone. He said, "What are you

    6 waiting for? Why don't you go to the shelter?

    7 Everybody else has gone."

    8 He wanted to speak to Vlatko, and Vlatko came

    9 to the telephone. Then they talked, and as they were

    10 talking, I woke up the children and Vlatko's parents.

    11 We hurriedly got ready and set off to the shelter.

    12 When we came out, I locked the door of the passage and

    13 I locked the entrance door.

    14 So we hurried to the shelter, passing by

    15 Ivica Kupreskic's house. We went down through the

    16 woods, reached Niko Sakic's house, and I saw Nika

    17 Sakic. He was standing in his yard, saying that we

    18 should move on because his house was full. Across Niko

    19 Sakic's house I saw Dragan Samija.

    20 So we moved on. Some five or six hundred

    21 metres down the road, I saw Mr. Milan Samija and his

    22 wife, Mara. They were feeding sheep.

    23 When we reached the playground, I could

    24 already hear shots being fired in Ahmici, and then we

    25 hurried to the shelter to save ourselves.

  94. 1When we reached the shelter, I found in front

    2 of it Anto Kupreskic, Marko Santic, Alojzije Vidovic

    3 and Ivo Vidovic. When we entered the shelter, the

    4 shelter was full of children, women, elderly persons,

    5 men.

    6 Q. We did not hear quite well. Which members of

    7 the household went to the shelter?

    8 A. Well, it was Vlatko, myself, our children,

    9 Vlatko's mother. But Vlatko's father stayed behind in

    10 the house because he was ill. He had a surgical

    11 intervention on his hip, and he needed to use sticks to

    12 walk, so he couldn't move and he stayed behind. So

    13 everybody else left, except that Vlatko Kupreskic's

    14 father stayed.

    15 Q. So will you please tell us what time was it

    16 when you left the house, as far as you can remember?

    17 A. I believe it could have been somewhere around

    18 half past 5.00 and 6.00. It is difficult to be

    19 accurate, but it could have been about that time.

    20 Q. But roughly speaking, it was before the

    21 firing began?

    22 A. We left before the fire began, but we had

    23 reached the playgrounds, and I remember it perfectly.

    24 I could show it immediately, when I heard the first

    25 shots in Ahmici. I could really show that.

  95. 1Q. Some witnesses affirm that that morning,

    2 around half past 6.00, that they saw Vlatko wearing a

    3 blue coat, passing by the house of Suhrija Ahmic.

    4 Could you comment on this and tell us if that is true?

    5 A. That is not true, because Vlatko was with me

    6 all the time, and I am dead certain about that. And

    7 besides, it was so cold for two days before that -- it

    8 rained for two days before that, so I mean -- but my

    9 husband has never had a blue, light coat, and that is

    10 true. That I know.

    11 Q. Right. Now we've got to the shelter.

    12 Please, did Vlatko stay with you in the

    13 shelter?

    14 A. Vlatko stayed there in the shelter until

    15 about 10.00.

    16 Q. What did he do at 10.00, where did he go?

    17 A. Around 10.00, Vlatko left the shelter, went

    18 to see his father, because the fire had somewhat abated

    19 and we were all worried about Vlatko's father.

    20 Q. So it was around 10.00?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. When did he come back?

    23 A. He returned sometime in the afternoon. It

    24 could have been around 4.00. I know it was lunchtime.

    25 I know we were all hungry.

  96. 1Q. When he came back, what did he tell you,

    2 where had he been and what had he seen?

    3 A. He told me he had been home, that he had seen

    4 his father frightened, that the house was full of

    5 soldiers, that fire was open from the house, that our

    6 house had been looted, that the entrance door had been

    7 broken down.

    8 Q. Tell me, after he returned to the shelter,

    9 did he go out again, did he leave the shelter again?

    10 A. Yes. Since he could not bring his dad

    11 because the fires had started again, sometime as the

    12 sun was setting or after sunset, he went back to see

    13 his father around 8.00.

    14 Q. Then he returned to the shelter?

    15 A. He returned to the shelter.

    16 Q. How long did you stay in that shelter?

    17 A. In that shelter, we stayed until the next

    18 day, that is, until the 17th of April, it was Saturday,

    19 until the evening hours, around 8.00, we all left the

    20 shelter because all the houses around were aflame, so

    21 we left the shelter. In a column, we panicked and set

    22 out for Donja Rovna.

    23 Q. And was Vlatko with you all the time and did

    24 he also set off to Donja Rovna?

    25 A. Yes, Vlatko was with us all the time, and he

  97. 1went with us to Donja Rovna.

    2 Q. So after that period of time of the 16th of

    3 April, could you tell us what did Vlatko do or, rather,

    4 where was he?

    5 A. We spent a fortnight or so in Donja Rovna.

    6 There were very many of us. We were sleeping on the

    7 floor, and since there were no living conditions, then

    8 we moved to Vitez.

    9 But Vlatko was there all the time. However,

    10 he did go to Vitez now and then because we had

    11 absolutely no food supplies there in Donja Rovna, and

    12 Vlatko would go and bring us some foodstuffs.

    13 Q. And where was Vlatko's father, Franjo, during

    14 that time?

    15 A. Vlatko's father, Franjo, was with us.

    16 Q. Did Franjo Kupreskic, Vlatko's father, tell

    17 you what had happened on the day, on the 16th of April,

    18 in your house while he was in it?

    19 A. Yes, he did tell me about that.

    20 Q. Could you recount briefly what he told you?

    21 A. He said that when we left, he stayed behind,

    22 he locked the door, and went back to bed. So he went

    23 back to bed, and then he heard the fire, and he got up

    24 and went to the bathroom. As he stood in the bathroom,

    25 he heard a knocking, banging, on the first floor of the

  98. 1house. He didn't know what was going on, but the fire

    2 had already been opened. As he was in the bathroom,

    3 there was a powerful bang, so that panes burst, and he

    4 came out of the bathroom and was standing in the

    5 passage and was thinking what to do, whether to stay in

    6 the house or go out. He was afraid.

    7 But then he went out of the house and he saw

    8 three camouflaged soldiers, and they told him, "Hands

    9 up." They asked him, "Who might you be?" and he said,

    10 "I'm Franjo." "Which Franjo," he said. "Do you have

    11 any identity documents?" He said, "Yes, I do, but they

    12 are in my coat in the passage, my identity card."

    13 "Show it to us." So he showed it to them, and they

    14 left him alone. He asked, "What's going on?" and they

    15 told him, "Don't ask."

    16 Then he went back to the ground floor, where

    17 he stayed for a while, and when the fire seemed to calm

    18 down, he went to the first floor to see what was going

    19 on there. There he saw that the door had been broken

    20 out and there was a beam which had fallen down, and the

    21 soil from flower pots was all around.

    22 They were looking for money. They asked him,

    23 "Where is the money?" He told them, "As far as I

    24 know, all the money we had we invested in the building

    25 of the warehouse," because that was what we were

  99. 1building in Pirici, that warehouse. "I don't know.

    2 There is no money." "Oh, come on. Such a

    3 well-appointed house and yet no money?" "I know

    4 nothing about that. I don't know where the money is."

    5 So he saw them take out all the clothes from

    6 the wardrobe, and he also saw them, as they climbed to

    7 the loft, that they took the synthesiser which belonged

    8 to my son Igor. He asked them to leave it behind, but

    9 of course he had no say in the matter. That is how it

    10 was.

    11 I remember that he also told me, as he was

    12 standing in front of the house, how our neighbour Cazim

    13 Ahmici was passing by, and he asked him to give him an

    14 axe. "I dared not give him the axe [realtime error

    15 corrected]. I could not decide about that. I had to

    16 ask those uniformed men if I could do it. So I went to

    17 the shed, I took the axe, and I went back to the house,

    18 took a blanket, and I gave them to my neighbour Cazim

    19 to help him."

    20 MR. PAR: Excuse me. I just read in the

    21 transcript -- something is wrong in the transcript, so

    22 it is not quite clear.

    23 Q. What did Franjo Kupreskic give Cazim Ahmic?

    24 What did the former ask him or what did he give him?

    25 A. Cazim Ahmic asked Vlatko's father to help

  100. 1him. He asked for an axe and for a blanket. He wanted

    2 to make something. I don't know, some makeshift

    3 stretcher or something of the sort.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Could you make a correction

    5 in the transcript? It's not "eggs," it's "axe."

    6 MR. PAR: "Axe," a-x-e.

    7 A. An axe to make a kind of a stretcher for his

    8 wife, who had been wounded.

    9 MR. PAR:

    10 Q. For his wounded wife, he asked for an axe,

    11 and then he had to ask for the permission from the

    12 soldiers. Have we clarified this? So to make a

    13 stretcher for his wounded wife?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. He asked for the permission from the

    16 soldiers?

    17 A. He asked them if he -- "May I give it to

    18 him," because of course he could not do it on his own,

    19 and they said they could do it but that she was done

    20 and over with.

    21 Q. Do you remember anything else? What did

    22 Franjo Kupreskic tell you, something else too, or was

    23 that more or less it?

    24 A. (No audible response)

    25 THE INTERPRETER: The witness did not say

  101. 1anything.

    2 Q. Is Franjo Kupreskic alive?

    3 A. Vlatko's father died in September '95.

    4 Q. Will you now please answer a series of some

    5 different questions?

    6 First, could you please tell us, on what kind

    7 of terms were you with the Pezer family before the 16th

    8 of April, '93?

    9 A. We were on good terms. That is, there was

    10 mutual respect. We looked after one another, we helped

    11 one another. There was never any trouble.

    12 Q. Could you tell us, who is Nevzudin Pezer?

    13 A. Yes. Nevzudin Pezer, Pedja, is Ismail

    14 Pezer's son, and his mother was Fata.

    15 Q. After the 16th of April, '93, did you see

    16 Nevzudin Pezer, the son of Ismail and Fata Pezer?

    17 A. Yes, I did see him after the 16th of April,

    18 '94. I did see Nevzudin Pezer.

    19 Q. Will you please describe that meeting

    20 briefly? That is, tell us where it was, when, who was

    21 present at the time, and the kind of conversation that

    22 you heard.

    23 A. It was in a warehouse in our shop in Pirici.

    24 As far as I can remember, it was sometime in late

    25 1994. Nevzudin Pezer turned up one morning in a van

  102. 1driven by Amir Jusic, and Mirhad Salibasic, called

    2 Djule, was also with him.

    3 Q. Will you tell us, these two individuals whom

    4 you mentioned, are they Croats or Muslims?

    5 A. These two persons are Muslims.

    6 Q. Yes. Go on, please.

    7 A. In the store, Mr. Haris Vehabovic was

    8 waiting. He often bought deep-frozen food from us, as

    9 he himself was a butcher and had his shop in Zenica,

    10 and they often came to us to purchase the foodstuffs.

    11 So that in the store there were our worker's brother,

    12 not a girl, Vlatko, myself, our children, and these

    13 persons who arrived in a van.

    14 Q. What did you talk about? What kind of a

    15 meeting was that? Was it the first time that you saw

    16 Nevzudin after the war?

    17 A. Well, we greeted one another in a friendly

    18 way, and Nevzudin put his arm around Vlatko's shoulders

    19 as if to hug him. It was a cordial meeting. For the

    20 first time after the conflict, after that tragedy with

    21 a mat (phoen), we talked about everything.

    22 I specifically asked if his people were all

    23 right, because there was rumour that they had been

    24 killed, that is, his wife and his children. But he

    25 told us that they had managed to escape and that they

  103. 1were accommodated somewhere in Cajdras in Zenica. From

    2 him, I heard that his sister had been wounded, and I

    3 already knew that his mother had been killed, because

    4 my neighbour, Stipan, had told me that he had seen Fata

    5 Pezer's body.

    6 I remembered that story, because he told me

    7 that he had been told by somebody, and I don't remember

    8 who, that a man had put on women's clothes, Muslim

    9 clothes, that is, the pantaloons, and he was curious.

    10 He wanted to know who that was. When he got there, he

    11 saw that it was Fata Pezer's body.

    12 Q. During that conversation, was there any

    13 mention of how Fata Pezer was killed? Was there any

    14 mention of that at all? Did you ask him, "Did you have

    15 any losses?"

    16 A. Well, he said, "My mother was killed and my

    17 sister is wounded."

    18 Q. Will you tell us, please, if you knew at that

    19 time that Vlatko had been accused of participating in

    20 the killing of Fata, Nevzudin's mother?

    21 A. I could not know that because it's -- I mean

    22 something like that would have never occurred to me. I

    23 wouldn't think it possible to have Vlatko accused of

    24 killing Nevzudin's mother.

    25 Q. But did Nevzudin Pezer know at that time that

  104. 1Vlatko was being charged with the killing of his

    2 mother?

    3 A. Well, had he known, he wouldn't have come to

    4 see us. That is not true. I mean, he couldn't have

    5 known. He must have spoken to his relatives, to his

    6 friends, about what had happened that morning, because

    7 he told us then that he had not been there in the

    8 house, that he had been in Mahala, in the old part of

    9 Vitez, because he was a military policeman. And that

    10 morning, he also turned up in a military uniform.

    11 Q. Could you tell us, on what kind of terms were

    12 you with Sakib Ahmic?

    13 A. I'm sorry, may I just add something about

    14 Nevzudin because I didn't finish it. So we talked

    15 about everything, and when Nevzudin was about to leave,

    16 I packed some presents for his children, some sweets,

    17 and some cigarettes for him, because they told us they

    18 were in very dire straits, that they had no income

    19 whatsoever. I also asked if Sabahudin Muratovic's

    20 children were alive. I asked him because they used to

    21 play with my children, and he told me, "Yes, they were

    22 alive," and I also packed some presents for them. That

    23 is what I wanted to add about Nevzudin Pezer.

    24 Q. My next question is: On what terms were you

    25 with the family of Sakib Ahmic?

  105. 1A. With Sakib Ahmic, and with all our

    2 neighbours, Sakib Ahmic and whoever his land bordered

    3 on were on bad terms with him, regardless of whether

    4 they were Muslims or Croats, but relations with his

    5 children were normal and good.

    6 Q. After the 16th of April, did you see Sakib or

    7 his granddaughter Enisa?

    8 A. No, I never saw his granddaughter Enisa. As

    9 for Sakib, I remember seeing him once in Ahmici in a

    10 column of people. There was a visit organised. As for

    11 his granddaughter, I don't think I could recognise

    12 her. She was a year or two older than my daughter.

    13 She probably has changed, so I couldn't recognise her.

    14 MR. PAR: Your Honours, I will be through

    15 with one section of this testimony in a couple of

    16 minutes, if I may be allowed to overstep the time for a

    17 few minutes.

    18 Q. Did you hear that Enisa came to Ahmici to

    19 take a video recording of her house?

    20 A. No, I hadn't heard about it.

    21 Q. Did Vlatko tell you that he saw her or that

    22 he spoke to her?

    23 A. No, Vlatko didn't tell me. Probably if it

    24 was true he would have told me. I don't believe it.

    25 Q. Could you tell me what your relations were

  106. 1with Rasim Gradinovic?

    2 A. With Rasim Gradinovic, we were on good

    3 terms. He often worked as a manual labourer for us,

    4 particularly in 1992, while we were building the

    5 warehouse in Pirici.

    6 Q. Could you tell us what his health was like?

    7 A. Rasim Gradinovic is a sick man. I know that

    8 he took a swim in the Lasva River, as a result of which

    9 he had a kind of stroke and became psychologically

    10 unstable. I know that he worked in a socially-owned

    11 enterprise belonging to Travnik municipality. He was a

    12 driver of a lorry. But since that stroke, he was on

    13 sick leave most of the time, and he was unfit for

    14 work. I also know that he married several times, that

    15 he liked to have a drink or two.

    16 I also remember that when we completed work

    17 on the building in Pirici, we prepared a celebration.

    18 There was a large percentage of Muslims, and I remember

    19 in particular when Ramiz's (sic) wife came to take him

    20 home after midnight. He was so drunk that she had to

    21 drag him along the ground.

    22 Q. My left question for today: Do you know

    23 Cizmo Senija and her husband?

    24 A. No, I've never heard of her.

    25 MR. PAR: Mr. President, I should like to end

  107. 1the examination for today. I have some documents to

    2 show the witness which I would like to do tomorrow.

    3 Thank you, Your Honours.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. We'll adjourn now

    5 until tomorrow at 9.00.

    6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

    7 at 1.33 p.m., to be reconvened

    8 on Wednesday, the 26th day of

    9 May, 1999, at 9.00 a.m.