1. 1Wednesday, 23rd June, 1999

    2 (Open session)

    3 (The accused entered court)

    4 (The witness entered court)

    5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

    6 THE REGISTRAR: Case IT-95-16-T, the

    7 Prosecutor versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic,

    8 Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic, and

    9 Vladimir Santic.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. We will continue

    11 with the examination in chief of our witness.

    12 Before we start, may I call upon Counsel

    13 Susak to try to refrain from mentioning those one or

    14 two names which were mentioned yesterday many times,

    15 and we were obliged to have redaction to redact the

    16 names. If you feel that you have to mention those

    17 names, and these are names of protected witnesses,

    18 could you please then maybe ask me, and we will go

    19 into a private session.

    20 Thank you.

    21 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: I think yesterday you were

    23 still examining the witness. I don't remember whether

    24 you were through.

    25 MR. SUSAK: Yes, I was, and I'm to continue

  2. 1this morning.


    3 Examined by Mr. Susak:

    4 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Kovac.

    5 A. Good morning.

    6 Q. We're about to enter our examination.

    7 Yesterday we covered quite a lot of ground,

    8 and now I should like to talk about the 17th of April,

    9 '93.

    10 Did you tell us clearly yesterday when the

    11 Muslims left towards the road from the house of Anto

    12 Papic?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. What time was that?

    15 A. That was sometime in the morning.

    16 Q. Drago Josipovic, did you see him in the

    17 morning?

    18 A. On the 17th of April, Drago Josipovic was in

    19 my house, and we went over to Anto Bralo's to have

    20 coffee together. Drago Josipovic spent the night in my

    21 house. In the morning, we were at my place. Then we

    22 went over to Anto Papic's house, had a coffee with him

    23 together. We stayed --

    24 Q. Do you mean Anto Papic or Anto Bralo?

    25 A. Anto Bralo. I'm sorry, I apologise. We

  3. 1talked there, and Marija Papic asked my husband and

    2 Anto Bralo to go to her house and feed the livestock,

    3 and Drago went to his house to feed the poultry which

    4 Drago Josipovic had.

    5 Q. Just one more question on the subject.

    6 Who went with the Muslims toward the road?

    7 A. It was Anto Papic who went with them.

    8 Q. Was he the only Croat?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. We are still talking about the 17th of April,

    11 '93. Did Anto Papic come to your house at around noon

    12 or in the afternoon; on the 17th, that is? On the 17th

    13 of April, did Anto Papic come to see you or not?

    14 A. Do you mean morning or afternoon?

    15 Q. Any time of the day.

    16 A. When he took away the Muslims, Anto Papic did

    17 come to my house. He asked me for some clothes, if I

    18 had any clothes for a small child, because Mirsad

    19 Osmancevic's wife had a small child and she didn't have

    20 enough clothes for the child, so that Anto Papic came

    21 to me because I also had a small child, to give him

    22 something, if I had any. He asked for milk. We had a

    23 cow, so he asked if I could give them some, if I could

    24 spare some, so I still gave it to them.

    25 Q. Did you give him all that?

  4. 1A. Yes. I gave him what I could for the baby,

    2 because my son is slightly older than Osmancevic's son,

    3 but I gave him what small sizes I had and I gave him

    4 some milk. But Anto Papic brought it back to me. He

    5 did not manage to give it to them. I don't know why.

    6 Q. You said that your husband practically lived

    7 in Novi Travnik and worked?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Was he doing something with his shares in

    10 Novi Travnik and do you know anything about that?

    11 A. Yes. My husband was given the shares from

    12 the Novi Travnik municipality.

    13 Q. Do you know when -- was your husband

    14 mobilised?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. While he was in Santici?

    17 A. My husband was mobilised on the 19th of

    18 April, 1993.

    19 Q. Before that, was he ever mobilised before

    20 that and did he go anywhere?

    21 A. It was like this: My husband was not

    22 mobilised, but he did go out to stand guard, mostly

    23 because he would be bored and in order to meet people

    24 in the area. He knew the people there very little, so

    25 as to get to know people a little better, he went out

  5. 1to stand guard, but very seldom. I mean village

    2 guards, village guards around our road.

    3 Q. How do you explain that it says there that

    4 he's a member of the regular HVO force and that before

    5 he was mobilised on the 19th of April, '93, he is

    6 registered there prior to that date? What will you say

    7 about that?

    8 You told us he was mobilised on the 19th of

    9 April, 1993. Was that the first time?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. So how is it that these documents say, when

    12 he was issued those shares, why does it say that he had

    13 been mobilised before that?

    14 A. When the war was over, couriers went around

    15 the village and were making a sort of a list, and we

    16 were told that they were doing it because of the

    17 shares, to know when people were mobilised so that that

    18 could be entered into that list. I asked that courier,

    19 on my own responsibility, to write a different date so

    20 that he could get better shares, because there were

    21 stories that one could buy building materials for those

    22 shares, and we were building our house. The courier

    23 did not promise anything, but he said that he would try

    24 to do something, and I do not know what date he put.

    25 MR. SUSAK: I have no further questions,

  6. 1Mr. President.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    3 Are there any other Defence counsel prepared

    4 to examine or cross-examine this witness?

    5 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I apologise. I

    6 completely forgot to show the aerial photographs to the

    7 witness. I had them prepared in advance, and I simply

    8 forgot about them. So may I please show them to

    9 witness? Will the usher please help me?

    10 Q. Please draw a circle --

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: If you don't mind, may I ask

    12 the registrar to first of all give us a number.

    13 THE REGISTRAR: It is D24/4.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.

    15 Counsel Susak?

    16 MR. SUSAK:

    17 Q. Mrs. Kovac, can you get your bearings on that

    18 map? Can you find your way around the map? You can

    19 turn it round if you think it will be easier for you.

    20 A. May I only ask if this here --

    21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the other witness's

    22 microphone be switched on, please. Could we have the

    23 other microphone switched on.

    24 MR. SUSAK:

    25 Q. Will you try to find Musafer Puscul's house?

  7. 1A. I'm not -- this photograph is not quite clear

    2 to me, but I think that Musafer Puscul's house is over

    3 there.

    4 Q. Will you put a circle?

    5 A. (Witness complies)

    6 MR. SUSAK: Usher, could you please offer her

    7 this copy here, it is clearer, I think, and then I

    8 believe she will be able to orient herself better.

    9 A. Yes, I don't quite find my way about this

    10 one.

    11 This is Ogrjev, isn't it? This is Musafer

    12 Puscul's house.

    13 Q. Will you please make a circle?

    14 A. (Witness complies)

    15 Q. Will you now make a circle around Asim and

    16 Ramiz's house.

    17 No, put an "A" next to Musafer Puscul's

    18 house.

    19 A. (Witness complies)

    20 Q. Now draw a circle around Nazif, Asim and

    21 Ramiz's house.

    22 A. I believe it's these houses here.

    23 Q. Will you please put small circles, and then

    24 mark them all together with a "B".

    25 Now will you please draw a line from Musafer

  8. 1Puscul's house to those houses up towards the road.

    2 A. And you want me to put an arrow?

    3 Q. Yes, do put an arrow.

    4 Can you see from Musafer Puscul's house in

    5 the direction of those houses?

    6 A. Yes. This area between Musafer's house and

    7 these houses is in the clearing, it is all clear, so

    8 that you can see. There are no trees, and you can see.

    9 Q. So you can see?

    10 A. Oh, yes, you have a full view.

    11 Q. Will you now find Fahrudin Ahmic's house and

    12 draw a circle around it? Just slowly.

    13 A. Somewhere here (marks).

    14 Q. And Anto Papic's?

    15 A. Anto Papic is here (marks).

    16 Q. Will you please move it a little, because we

    17 can't see. Take care. Don't make a circle around

    18 Omazic, so think.

    19 A. Yes, this is Omazic's house, and this is

    20 Papic's house.

    21 Q. Now, up there, put a "C" next to Fahrudin

    22 Ahmic's house, put a "C", and next to Anto Papic's, put

    23 a "D".

    24 Will you now draw a line from "C" to "D", in

    25 the direction of "D"?

  9. 1A. (Witness complies)

    2 Q. Now, if you look from this house, could you

    3 see if a group of people or somebody moved down this

    4 way?

    5 A. Yes, it is all quite clear. It is where

    6 people grow vegetables.

    7 Q. And what about cereals?

    8 A. Yes, cereals too.

    9 Q. On the 16th/04, was there lush vegetation or

    10 not?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. Could one see?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. As your house is down farther away from

    15 Nikola Omazic's wood, or below it, could you put a

    16 circle around it?

    17 A. Do you mean my own house, or my father's

    18 house?

    19 Q. No, not your father's but my (sic) house, the

    20 house that you own.

    21 A. I don't really quite find my way around this

    22 photograph, but I think this is my house (marks).

    23 Q. Will you then make a circle and put a "G"

    24 next to it.

    25 A. (Witness complies)

  10. 1Q. Now, will you tell us, from your house to

    2 Anto Papic's house, which are Muslim houses, and then

    3 you will put numbers to them. I shall repeat: From

    4 Anto Papic's house towards the road, can you tell us

    5 Muslim houses, either on the right or on the left side

    6 of the road?

    7 A. If I may, I should like to make a

    8 correction. This is not my house. This is my house.

    9 Q. Well then, put a circle around it.

    10 A. Yes. I do apologise. Now I've found my way

    11 around this. This is my house, and this is a "G", and

    12 this is a Muslim house.

    13 Q. Now, will you please tell us -- cross this

    14 out and tell us which is a Muslim house, and put a

    15 circle around it.

    16 A. This is a Muslim house.

    17 Q. Now put a circle, and put "1".

    18 A. And the owner of this house is Zeno Ramic.

    19 Q. And the other one?

    20 A. The second one is a (indiscernible) house. I

    21 put "2", isn't it? It is Cazim Ramic who is the owner

    22 of this house. Do you want other houses towards Anto

    23 Papic's?

    24 Q. Are there any other Muslim houses?

    25 A. No, not in the direction of Anto Papic's

  11. 1house.

    2 Q. And in the direction of the road?

    3 A. In the direction of the road, there are.

    4 This is Osmancevic's house.

    5 Q. Put a "3", then.

    6 A. Yes. This is Nail's house.

    7 Q. So put a "4". Give us the full name.

    8 A. Mirsad Osmanecvic, Nail Ahmic.

    9 Q. On the 16th of April, did any one of these

    10 houses burn down?

    11 A. On the 16th of April, not one of these houses

    12 burnt down.

    13 Q. Was anyone injured or killed from these

    14 houses near Anto Papic's house?

    15 A. From these Muslim houses, nobody was injured

    16 in any way.

    17 Q. I mean the 16th of April, '93.

    18 A. Yes, on the 16th of April, nobody was wounded

    19 or killed. On the 17th of April, Cazim Ramic's house

    20 was put fire to.

    21 Q. Was that the only house that was put fire to?

    22 A. Yes. In our area, yes.

    23 Q. What about other houses today?

    24 A. They're all intact.

    25 Q. So when you look from Anto Papic's house

  12. 1towards the road, who were people who were killed on

    2 the 16th of April, '93?

    3 A. If I look from the house, then next to the

    4 road it was only Fahrudin Ahmic and Musafer was killed.

    5 Q. What is his last name?

    6 A. Puscul.

    7 Q. Was anybody else killed apart from the two of

    8 them?

    9 A. No.

    10 Q. Next to the road?

    11 A. No, before the road. Before the road. Next

    12 to the road, only Musafer and Fahrudin.

    13 Q. And nobody else?

    14 A. It is these houses next to the road in my

    15 area, and in all those other families --

    16 Q. I wasn't asking you anything about that,

    17 only Puscul and Fahrudin Ahmic. Did Drago Josipovic

    18 and Anto Papic stand guard there?

    19 A. No, Drago Josipovic and Anto Papic were on

    20 duty here, along this road towards Anto Papic's house,

    21 because this is really the strict area of our village,

    22 and elsewhere were other people.

    23 Q. So between Drago Josipovic's house to Anto

    24 Papic's house, that is where they mounted guard?

    25 A. Yes.

  13. 1Q. Thank you.

    2 MR. SUSAK: I have no further questions,

    3 Mr. President.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I wonder if we

    5 can receive a copy of this particular aerial photograph

    6 which has been marked, because we have been using the

    7 big one, but of course, for the record, we need the

    8 small one, and also with a number.

    9 (Trial Chamber confers)

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: So we can probably give the

    11 same number here. I mean, just discard this one and

    12 give the same number, so D24/4. Thank you. D24/4.

    13 MR. SUSAK: They're identical.

    14 Mr. President, I should like to suggest at the same

    15 time that this aerial photograph, D24/4, be entered

    16 into evidence.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: I assume there is no

    18 objection from the Prosecution? It is admitted into

    19 evidence, yes. Thank you.

    20 I now turn to Counsel Pavkovic for the usual

    21 question.

    22 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Honours, other Defence

    23 counsel have no questions for this witness.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. So we may now

    25 turn to the Prosecution.

  14. 1Mr. Terrier?

    2 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.

    3 Cross-examined by Mr. Terrier:

    4 Q. Good morning. My name is Franck Terrier. I

    5 am one of the counsel for the Prosecution, and I have a

    6 few questions for you. First of all, I should like to

    7 know whether yesterday afternoon or evening you spoke

    8 to anyone at all about your testimony.

    9 A. No.

    10 Q. Not even with your husband?

    11 A. No. My husband wasn't well yesterday, and he

    12 spent most of the day sleeping, and I went for a walk.

    13 Q. In April 1993, your husband was working in

    14 Novi Travnik, and you were living in your father's

    15 house; that is, Nikola Omazic's house. Could you tell

    16 us how frequently your husband came back to Ahmici?

    17 A. My husband never knew exactly when he would

    18 come home. He would come when he had a free day, and

    19 when he received his salary. He never knew when he

    20 would be free, because he was working in a company that

    21 worked on Sundays as well. So when he worked on a

    22 Sunday, then he would have a working day off, and he

    23 never knew which day that would be. He did his best to

    24 spend that day on the construction of our house.

    25 Q. Is it true to say that your husband was with

  15. 1his family on the 19th and 20th of October, 1992?

    2 A. '92?

    3 Q. Yes.

    4 A. My husband was at home then, because we went

    5 to Anto Bralo's, who spent a lot of time working on our

    6 house. My husband had a chainsaw, and his neighbour,

    7 Anto Bralo, asked him to come over and help him cut

    8 some wood. I think I that -- I remember that that is

    9 what they did on the 19th to the 20th of October.

    10 Q. Similarly, on the 15th and 16th of April,

    11 1993, your husband was in Ahmici with his family?

    12 A. Yes. On the 15th, we had a working campaign

    13 on the construction of our house.

    14 Q. In October and in April, did you consider the

    15 presence of your house to be a fortunate event for your

    16 family and for you?

    17 A. Yes. I don't really know what to say. This

    18 was a mere coincidence. We spent a lot of time working

    19 on our house. I didn't actually participate, but I

    20 prepared the activities because I was never sure when

    21 my husband would come, and I was in a hurry to finish

    22 the house.

    23 Q. Madam, yesterday you mentioned Slavica

    24 Josipovic, and you said of her that at that time,

    25 referring to the period in 1993, that she was a very

  16. 1busy woman?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. What do you know and what could you tell us

    4 about her political activities and commitments?

    5 A. I know that Mrs. Slavica Josipovic was a

    6 member of the HDZ.

    7 Q. Did Madam Slavica Josipovic talk to you or to

    8 your husband about her political engagements?

    9 A. No.

    10 Q. Did Drago Josipovic talk to you about matters

    11 related to politics and the political commitments of

    12 his wife?

    13 A. No.

    14 Q. After April 1993 --

    15 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I think that these

    16 questions are inappropriate regarding relations between

    17 husband and wife, that is, Drago and Slavica Josipovic,

    18 and it is inappropriate to ask the witness to comment

    19 on their conversations, because everything relates to

    20 individual responsibility in accordance with Article 7

    21 of the Tribunal Statute.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, of course, but perhaps

    23 the Prosecutor is going to explain to us what is the

    24 relevance, in his opinion, of the questions he has just

    25 put.

  17. 1MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, for the

    2 information of the Tribunal, I'm trying to set the

    3 grounds for these facts, and it is not without interest

    4 and it is quite relevant, in my view, to know the

    5 political, moral, philosophical context Drago Josipovic

    6 developed. The witness has told us, but it seems to me

    7 that a question deserves to be reviewed, especially

    8 since during her examination in chief, the witness

    9 mentioned Slavica Josipovic and referred to her

    10 important activities, implying that those important

    11 activities of Madam Josipovic had an effect and had

    12 consequences on the behaviour of Drago Josipovic, who

    13 had to do more of the home duties, if I understood well

    14 the testimony we heard yesterday.

    15 Therefore, I consider these questions to be

    16 quite pertinent. But of course the Judges will not

    17 place on the shoulders of Drago Josipovic anything that

    18 relates to his wife.

    19 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, yesterday mention

    20 was made of Slavica Josipovic indeed, but rather about

    21 her work and not about her political engagements. So

    22 the Prosecutor has shifted from one area to another.

    23 It was stated that she was very busy because

    24 she worked in a private company both in the morning and

    25 in the afternoon, so no question was raised regarding

  18. 1her political activities.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: I consider that within the

    3 bounds indicated very clearly by the Prosecutor, the

    4 question is quite relevant. Of course, we need to

    5 understand the context, what was happening. Perhaps

    6 you could rephrase your question to limit its reach.

    7 MR. TERRIER: I'm going to go on to another

    8 series of questions, Mr. President, but if you wish me

    9 to rephrase my question, I can do so.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: No, it's not necessary if

    11 you're going on anyway.

    12 MR. TERRIER: Yes, I am.

    13 Q. Madam, coming to the 16th of April, 1993, you

    14 told us that you and your husband were woken up by

    15 shots that you heard in the vicinity of your house. At

    16 that moment, you got up, you dressed, and you went

    17 towards Anto Bralo's house; is that correct?

    18 A. Yes. We went towards Anto Bralo's house

    19 because it was the house closest to ours and his house

    20 was made from stronger material than my father's and it

    21 was dug into the ground, and that was the reason why we

    22 went there. That is what I said yesterday, anyway.

    23 Q. Had it been envisaged in advance that in the

    24 case of any difficulties or conflicts, you should seek

    25 refuge in Anto Bralo's house? Was this conveyed to you

  19. 1by any authority; by the civil defence, perhaps, in

    2 advance?

    3 A. No. The house that we took shelter in when

    4 the situation was tense due to Serb aggressors was that

    5 of Nail Ahmic. Nobody had designated Anto Papic's

    6 house as a shelter or anything like that, but we did so

    7 of our own accord. We went to Anto Bralo's house

    8 because we considered it to be safer than my father's,

    9 which was very old and there was no concrete slab and

    10 it was built some time ago from poorer material.

    11 Q. Could you tell us how long it took you to

    12 reach that house and at what time you reached Anto

    13 Bralo's house? Could you be more specific?

    14 A. We got up as soon as we heard the fire. It

    15 took us perhaps two or three minutes to reach Anto

    16 Bralo's house, but we maybe spent some five minutes to

    17 get dressed and to get our three-year-old child ready

    18 and for us to decide where we would go. So perhaps we

    19 were in his house about twenty to 6.00 in the morning.

    20 Q. You told us yesterday that having arrived at

    21 Anto Bralo's house, you noticed Anto Papic and Drago

    22 Josipovic?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Could you tell us when you saw them, at what

    25 point in time?

  20. 1A. I didn't say that I saw them when I reached

    2 Anto Bralo's house, but I said that when I entered

    3 Finka and Anto Bralo's house, that we looked through

    4 the window and that we saw Drago Josipovic and Anto

    5 Papic near my father's house. That could have been

    6 about a quarter to 6.00, maybe a couple of minutes

    7 before that, and my husband and Anto Bralo stayed in

    8 front of the house and decided to go towards them,

    9 towards the road. We were watching all this through

    10 the window, and we saw that Anto Bralo and Franjo Kovac

    11 wanted to reach Drago Josipovic and Anto Papic, but

    12 Drago Josipovic and Anto Papic went towards the road

    13 and Anto and Franjo went towards the stable of Anto

    14 Papic.

    15 Q. You probably have already told us, but could

    16 you please repeat where Drago Josipovic was when you

    17 saw him on the 16th of April around quarter to 6.00 in

    18 the morning, according to what you have just told us?

    19 Where was Drago Josipovic and Anto Papic, where were

    20 they standing when you saw them?

    21 A. You mean at a quarter to 6.00 in the

    22 morning?

    23 Q. Yes.

    24 A. Anto Papic and Drago Josipovic were moving

    25 along the road from Anto Papic's house to Nikola

  21. 1Omazic's house. They were closer to Nikola Omazic's

    2 house.

    3 Q. At that moment, was Drago Josipovic wearing

    4 the blouse of the uniform that you described yesterday,

    5 and was he carrying the weapon that you mentioned

    6 yesterday in your examination in chief?

    7 A. I don't know. I couldn't say that, because

    8 we were looking at that through Finka Bralo's window.

    9 Whether he was wearing this vest and carrying a rifle,

    10 I'm not sure of that.

    11 Q. But I'm not wrong, am I, that you said

    12 yesterday that Drago Josipovic on that day was carrying

    13 a weapon?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Do you remember when you saw that weapon?

    16 A. When I personally met Drago Josipovic, and

    17 this must have been around 9.00 because we were, all of

    18 us, in between these two houses, Anto Bralo's and

    19 Nikola Omazic's, and Josipovic was wearing the vest and

    20 carrying the rifle. We were moving around, all of us,

    21 and we could see each other on that day.

    22 Q. Are you certain regarding the weapon, because

    23 in the testimony given to us -- in the statement given

    24 to us by the Defence, it says that you were going to

    25 tell us that Drago Josipovic was without a weapon, and

  22. 1now today you're quite certain that he was carrying a

    2 weapon.

    3 MR. SUSAK: I said that he was without a

    4 weapon. That is only my note and the witness didn't

    5 sign anything, because at that time -- I won't go into

    6 it now, whether she saw the weapon or not through the

    7 window. What I considered important was the first

    8 moment when she saw him, whether he was wearing a

    9 weapon or not. The witness did not sign that

    10 statement, nor did I write down that Drago Josipovic

    11 was carrying a weapon in the morning at 5.00, after

    12 5.00.

    13 A. I'm saying also that I didn't say that Drago

    14 had --

    15 (Trial Chamber confers)

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: The objection is rejected,

    17 and I should like to ask the Prosecutor to continue

    18 with the same line of questioning or any other

    19 questions that he has.

    20 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.

    21 Q. Madam, on the 16th of April, 1993, at any

    22 time during the day, did you see or notice Drago

    23 Josipovic's family, and particularly his wife and his

    24 mother?

    25 A. Drago Josipovic's family I did see that

  23. 1morning; not his mother, but I did see his wife.

    2 Q. Could you tell us when you saw his wife? At

    3 what time on that day, the 16th of April?

    4 A. I saw his wife in the morning in Anto Papic's

    5 house when she came to talk to refugees who were in

    6 Anto Papic's house, and she offered to help them, if

    7 necessary. I asked her where she was, and she told me

    8 that with her own car, mother-in-law and children, she

    9 had gone to Rovna because her parents were from Rovna,

    10 and that she had come to Anto Papic's house to offer

    11 those people her assistance, as far as that was

    12 possible.

    13 But I didn't see the mother that day. Drago

    14 Josipovic's mother is quite old and she could not walk

    15 alone, so her daughter-in-law transported her, together

    16 with the children, with her own car to Rovna, according

    17 to what she told me.

    18 Q. Could you tell us whether at any point in

    19 time during that day, after a quarter to 6.00, the time

    20 when you saw Drago Josipovic, did Drago Josipovic have

    21 the opportunity or occasion to take care of his

    22 family? I'm thinking of his children and his mother.

    23 A. In the morning, about 5.30, there was very

    24 heavy shooting, and I believe that Drago Josipovic was

    25 thinking of his wife, children, and mother. As for

  24. 1whether he had an occasion to go home, I don't think

    2 so, because this was a clear space and there is no

    3 shelter. The path to his road from Anto Bralo's is

    4 exposed. These are all fields, and there's no shelter,

    5 so I don't think that Drago went towards his house, but

    6 I cannot guarantee that.

    7 Q. You're telling us, madam, that when the

    8 shooting started at 5.30, Drago Josipovic was not in

    9 his own house?

    10 A. I didn't say that. I didn't say that he

    11 wasn't in his house at 5.30. I didn't say that. I

    12 said that I saw Drago when I crossed over to Anto

    13 Papic's house, and I saw him through the window on the

    14 road towards Nikola Omazic's house.

    15 Q. You went to Anto Papic's house, as you told

    16 us yesterday, to assist the Muslim refugees who were

    17 there, and we were told that 27 or 28 Muslims had found

    18 shelter in that house. You spoke --

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. You spoke of Fatima, her husband,

    21 daughter-in-law, and grandchildren. Did you see any

    22 other Muslims heading towards Anto Papic's house?

    23 A. I did see Suhreta's family when she went over

    24 to Anto Papic's house, and I said yesterday that Jozo

    25 Livancic went to Anto Papic's house. I saw Mirsad

  25. 1Osmancevic with his wife and children going towards

    2 Anto Papic's house, but later I heard that Mirsad

    3 Osmancevic's wife did not stay in Anto Papic's house,

    4 but that she went to Rovna, to Jozo Cerkez's house, and

    5 that after some time, Drago Josipovic helped Mirsad to

    6 go to Rovna, that he gave him his vest, and after

    7 accommodating Mirsad in Jozo Cerkez's house, five or

    8 ten minutes later Mirsad called up Anto Bralo's house

    9 by phone -- I was present when he called -- and said

    10 that Franjo Kovac and Anto Bralo should come because

    11 Jozo Cerkez was under threat, because of Mirsad, as

    12 Mirsad was a member of the BH army before the

    13 conflict.

    14 My husband and Anto Bralo could not go and

    15 fetch him because at that moment they were not in Anto

    16 Bralo's house. When they tried to go there, he had

    17 already reached Anto Papic's house with his wife and

    18 children. I didn't see Zilka arrive, but I did see

    19 Zilka and Kijazim with their daughter-in-law and sons

    20 coming, but I saw them in the house. I think that is

    21 what I said yesterday, and that is what I stand by, and

    22 that is how it was.

    23 Q. Could you explain, madam, the conditions

    24 under which the Muslim refugees were accommodated in

    25 Anto Papic's house? Do you remember that?

  26. 1A. Yes, I can, because I know Anto Papic's house

    2 well. Anto Papic's house is small, old, with poor

    3 facilities. There are two rooms and a corridor that is

    4 being used as a kitchen to this day. He had two small

    5 children, a sister who is rather old, and a wife, who

    6 was not very healthy; she was sickly, and she died

    7 during the war.

    8 Twenty-seven or 28 refugees who were there

    9 virtually had no proper conditions for accommodation,

    10 because it is impossible to put up 30 people in two

    11 rooms and give them any kind of comfort. The house has

    12 no running water, no toilet, no bathroom. And Anto

    13 Papic himself, let me put it this way, was not very

    14 well off, and he was short of food for himself, and

    15 never mind for so many people. He just couldn't look

    16 after them. It was very difficult for him to look

    17 after them even for 24 hours because of those

    18 conditions and because of the conditions in his house.

    19 Q. Yourself, madam, together with your son,

    20 found shelter in Anto Bralo's house. How many refugees

    21 were gathered in that house?

    22 A. In Anto Bralo's house, the Croatian

    23 inhabitants were coming, the Croatian refugees. I was

    24 the first, with my son. I was followed by Marija Papic

    25 and Ljubica Milicevic, with her daughter, and then came

  27. 1Serafina Vidovic with her husband, we call her Finka

    2 Vidovic, and her husband. Then there was Jozo Santic,

    3 an elderly man from our area. And I think no one

    4 else. I think no one else.

    5 Q. Could it be said that the conditions in Anto

    6 Bralo's house were much better than those in Anto

    7 Papic's house, the Croats on the one hand and Muslims

    8 on the other?

    9 A. Well, let me tell you, the conditions in Anto

    10 Bralo's house are better. Anto Bralo's house had a

    11 bathroom. Yes, the conditions were better, but nowhere

    12 were conditions such as to be able to accommodate three

    13 or four, never mind ten people. None of us had the

    14 facilities to take in ten guests at the same time,

    15 because as the host, you wish to extend hospitality to

    16 those people, in a sense.

    17 Q. Perhaps, also, it was not possible to

    18 disperse the refugees. On the contrary, it was

    19 necessary to gather them together. Was that your view?

    20 A. I'm sorry, I didn't understand your

    21 question.

    22 Q. What I'm trying to say is that if all those

    23 refugees were gathered in the condition that you have

    24 described in Anto Papic's house, and not spread out in

    25 other houses, like Anto Bralo's, maybe it was decided

  28. 1that those refugees should not be dispersed, that they

    2 should remain in a group.

    3 A. I think that the refugees from Anto Papic's

    4 house moved freely and came to Anto Bralo's house, but

    5 they wanted to be together. Fatima came to Anto

    6 Bralo's with her husband. Zilka came with her

    7 husband. No member of Anto Bralo's family would have

    8 sent them back. We would have taken them in just like

    9 Anto Papic had done, but they wanted to be together. I

    10 personally think it was easier for them to be together,

    11 and they liked to be together. That is my view, my

    12 opinion.

    13 Q. It is your opinion that I should like to

    14 hear. Was it possible for those refugees to leave Anto

    15 Papic's house, to cross the Lasva River on the Radak

    16 Bridge and to seek shelter somewhere on the opposite

    17 bank, on the side of Rovna? Would that be possible?

    18 A. You mean could those refugees go towards

    19 Rovna? Those refugees could go towards Rovna. Mirsad

    20 Osmancevic did cross Radak's Bridge. I told you that

    21 he went to Rovna, to Jozo Cerkez's house. Then there

    22 was a threat to that house, and then he came back

    23 across that same bridge, because that is the only link

    24 to the village of Rovna. They could have, but they

    25 moved freely, wherever anyone wanted to go. And Rovna,

  29. 1too, is a Croatian-majority village.

    2 Q. Madam, you said that they could have, but

    3 yesterday you told us that Mirsad Osmancevic, in order

    4 to cross the bridge, needed a camouflage vest, which he

    5 was lent by Drago Josipovic. So when you say that it

    6 was possible, one has an ambiguous impression.

    7 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I should like to

    8 object to this question because the witness didn't say

    9 a protective vest; she said a camouflage vest.

    10 A. Mirsad did not ask for this vest, but Drago

    11 gave it to him so that he shouldn't be mistreated or

    12 provoked, because there were people, unknown people,

    13 who might recognise Mirsad as a Muslim, but wearing a

    14 vest, he would be safer. But it is not true to say

    15 that he could not stay in Jozo Cerkez's house. They

    16 received very well Mirsad Osmancevic's wife and

    17 children, but someone, one of the soldiers, threatened

    18 Jozo Cerkez that they would blow up his house because

    19 he was taking in Mirsad and Mirsad was a member of the

    20 BH army and war was being waged against the Muslims.

    21 Q. Could you tell us, madam, how much time you

    22 spent in Anto Bralo's house?

    23 A. I was in Anto Bralo's house throughout that

    24 day, but I went to my own house very frequently. The

    25 distance between my house, Anto Bralo's, and Anto

  30. 1Papic's is very small. They are three houses that are

    2 closest to one another. I would cross into my house

    3 frequently. I had two cows, chickens, and other

    4 livestock. I needed clothes for my three-year-old

    5 child. So I would cross over to my house frequently,

    6 and if my neighbour, Finka, didn't have something, I

    7 would go to my own house to get it.

    8 I spent most of the time at Anto Bralo's

    9 house. Towards the evening we talked where we would

    10 go, where we would spend the night, and I said that I

    11 would go to spend the night with my child in my own

    12 house because my child was most comfortable in his own

    13 cot. I wouldn't sleep. I would watch out for the

    14 safety of my children. Then my husband said that he

    15 would also come to the house, and then Dubranka Santic

    16 decided to spend the night with us, and then we asked

    17 Drago Josipovic to come over and keep my husband

    18 company in case that we women fell asleep.

    19 So we spent the night in my house; that is,

    20 in Nikola Omazic's house. The other Croatian refugees

    21 stayed on in Anto Bralo's house. We did not sleep that

    22 night, but we just relaxed, but were watchful. We had

    23 to be ready at any moment in case firing should erupt

    24 again because the children were with us there.

    25 Q. During the days that followed, the 17th, the

  31. 118th, and the weeks that followed, did you stay in that

    2 house, your father's house, Nikola Omazic's house?

    3 A. On the 17th, in the morning, we went to Anto

    4 Bralo's. I spent all the night in my own house, but

    5 during the day I spent more time in Anto Bralo's house

    6 than in my own. I went to my own house only when I had

    7 to, but I spent all the nights in my own house.

    8 When my husband was mobilised on the 19th, I

    9 didn't dare sleep alone in the house. Then Drago

    10 Josipovic's mother came to my house on the 19th of

    11 April, and she stayed with me for a long time. Jozo

    12 Santic, too, when my husband was mobilised, then Jozo

    13 Santic came to spend the night at my place, and Simo

    14 Vidovic stayed at Finka's, so that we would each have

    15 an elderly man with us to provide some kind of

    16 security.

    17 Q. Could you tell us, madam, how many people who

    18 lived in your area were killed on the 16th or the 17th

    19 of April? Do you have any idea of that?

    20 A. I have already said along the road where we

    21 lived from the road to Anto Papic's house, Fahran and

    22 Puscul, Musafer Puscul, were killed.

    23 Q. If you don't know, you don't know. I'm not

    24 asking you the names. I just want you to tell us

    25 whether you know how many people were killed in that

  32. 1area.

    2 A. Two. In my area, from the road where Suhreta

    3 Puscul is to the house of Anto Papic, two persons were

    4 killed. And there are other areas which I didn't

    5 comment.

    6 Q. You don't know? A last question for you,

    7 madam. You told us a moment ago that your husband kept

    8 guard duty when he came to Ahmici in April 1993. Could

    9 you be more specific and tell us with what weapon he

    10 kept guard duty?

    11 A. I didn't say that my husband went to Ahmici.

    12 My husband went to Santici. When he had a day off, he

    13 would come to Santici, not to Ahmici. My husband went

    14 to keep guard duty, to spend his free time in that way,

    15 and to associate with Bralo and Josipovic and Anto

    16 Papic. Sometimes he had a wooden toy rifle with him,

    17 which our children used to play with, because he didn't

    18 have a rifle. So he would carry the children's toy

    19 rifle with him.

    20 Q. Thank you, madam.

    21 MR. TERRIER: I have no further questions,

    22 Mr. President.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Susak?

    24 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President. I have

    25 only two questions.

  33. 1Re-examined by Mr. Susak:

    2 Q. You said that Slavica Josipovic and her

    3 children went to Rovna in her car, as I heard?

    4 A. Yes. I didn't see her going, but I heard

    5 that Slavica had gone by car with her children to

    6 Rovna.

    7 Q. Did you hear when that was?

    8 A. Slavica told me when we met in Anto Papic's

    9 house -- it's very hard for me to say all these

    10 names -- that she was awakened by gunfire and that she

    11 fled in her car with her children to Rovna. She also

    12 told me that her house had been damaged and that she

    13 had seen, as she was leaving for Rovna, that the window

    14 had been shattered and that the facade and roof were

    15 damaged. She fled to Rovna in her car because it was

    16 impossible to go on foot.

    17 Q. You said that Mirsad Osmancevic went to Rovna

    18 and so did his family?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Could any of the Muslims in Anto Papic's

    21 house have gone to Rovna?

    22 A. Any Muslim, if he wanted to, if he knew

    23 someone in Rovna, could have gone. Mirsad decided to

    24 go because he and the children of Jozo Cerkez had very

    25 close relations, so he decided to go to Jozo Cerkez's

  34. 1house because they were on very close terms. The other

    2 Muslims who were staying in Anto Papic's house could

    3 have gone to Rovna if they had known that they would

    4 find someone there who would take them in, but they

    5 were not so familiar with Rovna as they were with Anto

    6 Papic's house, so of course they felt more comfortable

    7 in Anto Papic's house because they knew him. When

    8 there was gunfire, nobody was worried about the

    9 conditions they would have to live in. The aim was to

    10 survive and whether you would be able to lie down and

    11 sleep or whether you would have to stand was not

    12 important.

    13 Q. One more question. The Prosecutor asked you

    14 if any Muslims had been killed in your neighbourhood,

    15 and you answered, "Two." However, this is a broad

    16 question. Can you tell us whether any of your Muslim

    17 neighbours were killed in the vicinity of your house

    18 or, rather, between Anto Papic's house and your house,

    19 and where were these people killed and were they your

    20 neighbours?

    21 A. We had our own path leading from Drago

    22 Josipovic's house to Anto Papic's house, and on that

    23 lane, on the left and right side, no one was killed.

    24 But there is also another lane which leads toward a

    25 third road, and Fahran Ahmic and Musafer were killed on

  35. 1this other way. But on the lane leading to my house

    2 and Drago Josipovic and Anto Bralo's house, no one was

    3 killed.

    4 Q. You say that none of your neighbours were

    5 killed and that these two were killed. Can you tell us

    6 how far the houses are from the road?

    7 A. Their houses are close to the road.

    8 Q. How many metres?

    9 A. Well, Fahran's house is five to ten metres,

    10 and Musafer's is some 15 to 20 metres away from the

    11 house.

    12 Q. Well, it seems to me to be a bit more.

    13 A. Musafer's house is close to their house, and

    14 Fahran's and his mother's house -- well, in my opinion

    15 it's close to the road. I never measured it.

    16 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President. I have

    17 no further questions.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: We don't have any questions

    19 for the witness.

    20 Mrs. Kovac, thank you so much for testifying

    21 in court. You may now be released.

    22 (The witness withdrew)

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak, may I ask you,

    24 who is going to be your next witness, Mr. Pranjkovic?

    25 MR. SUSAK: Ivo Pranjkovic. I believe that

  36. 1this will be very brief.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Pranjkovic. So it's

    3 misspelled, yes. So his name has been misspelled in

    4 the list. Ivo Pranjkovic.

    5 You are not seeking any protective measures,

    6 I gather.

    7 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone was not

    8 switched on.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    10 (The witness entered court)

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning,

    12 Mr. Pranjkovic. Will you please make the solemn

    13 declaration.

    14 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    15 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    16 truth.

    17 I wish to greet the Honourable Court and all

    18 those present.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. Could you

    20 please sit down, and I will call upon Counsel Susak to

    21 start with the examination in chief.

    22 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President.


    24 Examined by Mr. Susak:

    25 Q. Good day, Mr. Pranjkovic.

  37. 1A. Good day to all.

    2 Q. Will you please introduce yourself to the

    3 Court? Would you tell us your first name, your last

    4 name, your birth date, where you live, and where you

    5 work?

    6 A. My name is Ivo Pranjkovic. I was born on the

    7 30th of December, 1937, and I work in the Vitezit

    8 company.

    9 Q. Were you a member of the HVO?

    10 A. I was a member of the reserve.

    11 Q. So you were in the reserve?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. We will proceed to ask specific questions.

    14 Did you go to the front line facing the Serbs

    15 or the Muslims during the war?

    16 A. During the war, I was mostly in the village

    17 guard and at a position which was called Kuber.

    18 Q. Would you tell us what Kuber is?

    19 A. It was said to be a strategic point, a place

    20 where the borders of three municipalities meet, Zenica,

    21 Busovaca and Vitez, where there is a plateau the size

    22 of a soccer field which was supposed to be guarded

    23 against Serbian forces who could have landed there.

    24 Q. How many times did you go to Kuber?

    25 A. I don't know exactly, but several times.

  38. 1Q. Where were you on the 15th and 16th of April,

    2 1993?

    3 A. At Kuber.

    4 Q. So you were at Kuber?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. When did you go there?

    7 A. On the 13th of April.

    8 Q. And the year?

    9 A. It was 1993, wasn't it?

    10 Q. So on the 13th of April, 1993?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Do you know who else was there?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Before you tell us who was there, could you

    15 tell us what your position was there, who your

    16 commander was?

    17 A. I was the deputy commander in the group.

    18 Q. Who was there in that group? Can you tell us

    19 the persons' names?

    20 A. On the 13th of April, we went there, and the

    21 commander was Zeljo Livancic. There was Mirko

    22 Livancic, Mirko Vidovic, Andjelko Vidovic, Anto Santic,

    23 Vlado Santic, Stipo Grgic, Stipica Grgic, Ivo

    24 Pranjkovic, Ivica Badrov, Ivica Safradin, Anto Buha,

    25 Zarko Kristo, Andjelko Vidovic, Jakov Opacak, and Ivica

  39. 1Plavcic.

    2 Q. So how many of you were there?

    3 A. Fifteen.

    4 Q. How long did you stay in Kuber?

    5 A. We stayed until the day we were attacked and

    6 had to withdraw from the positions.

    7 Q. When was that?

    8 A. On the 17th of April.

    9 Q. Was it 1993?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. How did you go to Kuber?

    12 A. Well, we were sent there by the office for

    13 defence, since we were not sent to some faraway

    14 warfield, since we were in the village and the local

    15 patrol. So when we had time, the defence office sent

    16 us to Kuber.

    17 Q. Were you on a list, or how did they know

    18 about you? How did they know where you were?

    19 A. Well, there were couriers in the village who

    20 knew and who contacted -- the late Nenad Santic

    21 cooperated with the office for defence and the

    22 authorities, so they knew when someone was free, and

    23 then they would send us to Kuber.

    24 Q. So they would give them your details and you

    25 would be sent there?

  40. 1A. Yes.

    2 Q. You mentioned the authorities. What

    3 authorities were you referring to?

    4 A. I was referring to the municipality

    5 authorities and the office for defence.

    6 Q. Who was at the head of the municipal

    7 authorities?

    8 A. It was Ivica Santic.

    9 Q. Who was in the office for defence of the

    10 Santici municipality?

    11 A. Well, I think his name was Stipo Zigonja


    13 Q. And Marijan?

    14 A. Marijan Skopljak, yes.

    15 Q. What was he?

    16 A. Well, he was the president of the HDZ.

    17 Q. You may have got the names mixed up. So Pero

    18 Skopljak was the president of the HDZ?

    19 A. Well, Marijan was in the government, but to

    20 tell you the truth, I don't know exactly what his

    21 function -- what his post was.

    22 Q. Well, was there any civil defence in the

    23 villages?

    24 A. Yes, the civil defence existed from before,

    25 and they were organised in some way and they performed

  41. 1certain duties.

    2 Q. Was there a municipal Territorial Defence

    3 headquarters in Vitez?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. You said that the civil defence had been set

    6 up. Did anyone from the civil defence patrol the

    7 village?

    8 A. Yes, from time to time when they were free.

    9 Q. On the basis of what were these patrols

    10 held? Did they agree among themselves or how was it

    11 done?

    12 A. You mean the civil defence?

    13 Q. Yes.

    14 A. Well, in the same way as we did. When they

    15 had time and when they wanted to.

    16 Q. So was it a thing that you discussed and

    17 agreed on?

    18 A. Yes, of course, because the village had to be

    19 defended against burglaries, looting, and such things

    20 that were going on at the time.

    21 Q. So you were a member of the reserve HVO. Did

    22 you know that the military or civilian authorities

    23 confiscated weapons from certain persons in the area of

    24 Vitez?

    25 A. No, I wasn't aware of this because I didn't

  42. 1move around very much.

    2 Q. Did you hear about it?

    3 A. Well, I heard something about some isolated

    4 cases, but I can't comment on this.

    5 Q. When you were in Kuber, you mentioned Zeljo

    6 Livancic?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. You said that he left when you did, that he

    9 went to Kuber on the 13th of April?

    10 A. Yes, and he was the commander of the group.

    11 Q. And you, what were you?

    12 A. I was his deputy.

    13 Q. Could you tell us whether he survived or not?

    14 A. Zeljo was killed on the 17th of April, when

    15 we were attacked.

    16 Q. At what time?

    17 A. In the evening. It was between 18.00 and

    18 18.30. I'm not sure exactly.

    19 Q. Was Josko killed as well?

    20 A. Yes, and Stipo Grgic and Niko Livancic were

    21 also killed, and their bodies have never been found or

    22 buried.

    23 Q. So they were declared missing?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Do you know the village of Santici?

  43. 1A. Yes, because I was born there and I still

    2 live there.

    3 Q. Do you know or have you heard about D.D.

    4 Vitez? What is that?

    5 A. It's a building construction company.

    6 Q. Do they have a warehouse in Santici?

    7 A. Yes. Well, they did then. Now it's

    8 privately owned.

    9 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I would like to

    10 ask the usher to take these aerial photographs, and

    11 then I will conclude my questioning.

    12 Q. Could you please show where the Ogrjev

    13 warehouse is belonging to the Vjeternica company which

    14 we just mentioned?

    15 THE REGISTRAR: This would be D25/4.

    16 MR. SUSAK:

    17 Q. Mr. Pranjkovic, I have a larger photograph.

    18 It may be easier for you.

    19 A. Yes, yes.

    20 Q. So you can compare the big and the small

    21 photograph and then mark the small one, but it's easier

    22 to find your way on the big one.

    23 A. This is the main road (indicating), and I

    24 think this is the building (indicating).

    25 Q. Would you circle it, please, on the other

  44. 1photograph, on the small one? This is just to help you

    2 recognise what is on the small photograph.

    3 A. (Witness complies)

    4 Q. Now circle Ogrjev.

    5 A. I have.

    6 Q. Mark it with the letter "A".

    7 A. (Witness complies)

    8 Q. Could you tell us where the road leads to the

    9 right and to the left? This is the main road?

    10 A. Well, yes, it's the same road.

    11 Q. So if you were to take that road, where would

    12 you be going, where would you arrive?

    13 A. To Sarajevo and to Novi Travnik.

    14 Q. So to the right, could you tell us where the

    15 road leads?

    16 A. You mean the main road?

    17 Q. Does it go to Novi Travnik?

    18 A. If I was looking ahead, it would go to

    19 Travnik, and in the opposite direction, it would go to

    20 Sarajevo or Busovaca. Well, first Busovaca and then

    21 Sarajevo.

    22 Q. Very well. So Busovaca and Novi Travnik.

    23 Now we are at Ogrjev. Do you know whether

    24 there is a fence around Ogrjev?

    25 A. Yes.

  45. 1Q. What kind of fence it is?

    2 A. Well, there are some concrete posts and wire.

    3 Q. Could you tell us whose houses are to the

    4 left or west of Ogrjev and whose houses are to the

    5 east?

    6 A. To the east, since I know the place, the

    7 house of Ismail Ahmic.

    8 Q. Could you circle it, please, and mark it with

    9 "1"?

    10 A. (Witness complies) Left of Ogrjev.

    11 Q. Now look at the Ogrjev fence. So where is

    12 Ogrjev?

    13 A. It's here (indicating).

    14 Q. Whose house is to the left?

    15 A. To the left? To the left is the house of

    16 Murad Djidic, number 1, Sefika Pezer, Josip Vidovic.

    17 That's to the left or to the west.

    18 Q. Could you please look at me, please? So

    19 Ogrjev is over there. Do you know where Ismail Ahmic's

    20 house is?

    21 A. I know.

    22 Q. To the east?

    23 A. To the east, yes.

    24 Q. Of what?

    25 A. Of the Ogrjev building.

  46. 1Q. Whose house is on that side?

    2 A. Mujo Ahmic and Mustafa Ahmic's house.

    3 Q. Could you circle those houses, please, and

    4 mark them "1", "2", and "3"? Where is Ogrjev?

    5 A. Well, they are next to the Ogrjev fence

    6 (indicating).

    7 Q. You are indicating houses across the road?

    8 A. Well, I don't find this photograph completely

    9 clear.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry to interrupt you, but

    11 I'm wondering whether it is really so crucial for us to

    12 have all the markings, because we know all these

    13 places. We have dozens of aerial photographs, and also

    14 we have a very good map produced by the Prosecution

    15 with all the houses and the names and so on. Is it so

    16 important? Also the witnesses can't get their

    17 bearings, and I can understand why, because it's so

    18 difficult.

    19 As I say, for the purposes of our

    20 proceedings, I wonder whether it is very important for

    21 us now to ask each witness to locate a particular

    22 house. I can the understand the question of the

    23 factory and the fence. Of course, we all know it is

    24 important for you. But I mean why don't we concentrate

    25 on this particular matter. Thank you.

  47. 1MR. SUSAK: Very well, Your Honour. I will

    2 respect your decision, so I will only ask the witness

    3 to enumerate the houses on the left side of Ogrjev and

    4 on the right side of Ogrjev.

    5 Q. Don't look at the photograph any more. Just

    6 tell us Mr. Pranjkovic, just tell us whose houses are

    7 to the east of the Ogrjev warehouse?

    8 A. They are Muslim.

    9 Q. Are they Muslim houses or Croat houses?

    10 A. They are Muslim houses on the east. The

    11 nearest are three houses; Ismail Ahmic, Mustafa Ahmic

    12 and Mujo Ahmic.

    13 Q. And to the west?

    14 A. To the west, Murad Djidic, Ado Becirevic,

    15 Josip Vidovic, Sefik Pezer and so on.

    16 Q. Very well. Thank you. We have finished with

    17 this area.

    18 As for Zeljo Livancic, some say that on the

    19 16th of April, he was in Ahmici and in Santici. What

    20 do you say to that? Could he have been in Ahmici,

    21 considering what you said?

    22 A. I say that he was on Kuber with us and that

    23 he couldn't have been there. He was with me and he was

    24 killed there.

    25 Q. So do you think it's true, or not?

  48. 1A. No, whoever said that was not telling the

    2 truth.

    3 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I have no further

    4 questions. Thank you.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    6 Counsel Pavkovic?

    7 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, the other

    8 Defence counsel have no questions, but I have only one

    9 comment: The witness listed the persons who were on

    10 Kuber with him. I think he enumerated 15. But the

    11 names of Zarko Kristo and Andjelko Vidovic are not in

    12 the record.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: You heard these two names?

    14 All right. So we will put the record straight and make

    15 the necessary corrections.

    16 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel Pavkovic.

    18 I think, before we hear the Prosecution, we can adjourn

    19 now for half an hour. So we will reconvene at five to

    20 11.00.

    21 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

    22 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Before I turn to the

    24 Prosecution, let me tell you that on Friday we've got

    25 to stop at 1.00 sharp, so we therefore wonder whether

  49. 1we could try to make an effort to get through with all

    2 the witnesses by Friday at 1.00, the list, to go

    3 through your list of witnesses. I, of course, am in

    4 particular making an appeal to Counsel Susak. If need

    5 be, we could start on Friday at 8.30, if we see that we

    6 need some more time, 8.30. So this is just an appeal

    7 to both parties to try to get through with the list of

    8 witnesses by the end of this week.

    9 You know why, because you know very well that

    10 we will skip one week, and that means that if some

    11 witnesses cannot be called to court, then they will

    12 have to stay here for a week or go back to their

    13 country and come back here. So it's time-consuming,

    14 expensive, and also bad for the witnesses.

    15 All right, so let's make an effort.

    16 Mr. Blaxill?

    17 Counsel Susak, did you want to say anything?

    18 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I do hope that I

    19 shall be up to the plan and we shall conclude with

    20 examination of our witnesses as you just indicated.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    22 Mr. Blaxill?

    23 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Mr. President, Your

    24 Honours, good morning.

    25 Cross-examined by Mr. Blaxill:

  50. 1Q. Mr. Pranjkovic, good morning to you, sir. My

    2 name is Michael Blaxill. I'm one of the prosecutors in

    3 this case, and I would like to ask you just a few

    4 questions, sir, as a result of what you said here

    5 today. Firstly, may I ask, where were you living in

    6 April of 1993?

    7 A. In Santici, the municipality of Vitez.

    8 Q. Would Mr. Nenad Santic therefore have been a

    9 neighbour of yours at that time?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. You have stated that you were in the -- what

    12 became, at least, the HVO reserve forces; is that

    13 correct?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. When you were called to go to duty on Kuber,

    16 how did you receive your instructions?

    17 A. I received the instructions from the office

    18 for national defence. There was a summons, and I had

    19 to join the group.

    20 Q. Would that be a summons by a visit from an

    21 official, or would that be communicated perhaps by

    22 telephone or some other form?

    23 A. I received it in writing, as a summons.

    24 Q. When you served on Kuber, did you do so in

    25 the same unit on each occasion?

  51. 1A. Yes.

    2 Q. When you reported for duty on Kuber, did all

    3 of you from the unit serve at the same time, or did the

    4 individuals rotate the duty at different times?

    5 A. We all performed our duty equally. We went

    6 when we were free, depending on how free one was, and

    7 then he would be called up and asked to take up his

    8 post.

    9 Q. How long would each person generally serve

    10 when they went to the lines at Kuber?

    11 A. From seven to ten days. Those were the

    12 shifts.

    13 Q. So if I've understood you correctly, sir, you

    14 would have individual rotation in the unit, so one man

    15 might be serving seven days, his comrade would arrive,

    16 then he would finish and leave, then another comrade

    17 would arrive, and so forth; yes?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. When you reported for duty on the 13th of

    20 April, 1993, did you in fact go to the lines with

    21 Mr. Zeljo Livancic?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. What arrangements did you have during the

    24 night up on Kuber? How did you arrange to stand guard

    25 and/or rest your troops?

  52. 1A. That is correct. Some people would be on

    2 duty for two hours, and then we would take shifts, and

    3 it went on like that.

    4 Q. Would it be correct that as the deputy

    5 commander, would you take sort of one shift and be with

    6 the men, and perhaps Mr. Livancic would take the other

    7 shift while you rested? Did you share your command

    8 duties that way?

    9 A. Well, yes, more or less. As I was the

    10 deputy, I was the one who took people -- who headed

    11 people on shift more frequently, more often. Later

    12 Zjeljo was in that building, or rather in that shed

    13 that we used, but at times he was the one who headed

    14 the shift.

    15 Q. So if you were heading the shift, you would

    16 actually be in the trenches, in the front-line trenches

    17 with the men; is that correct?

    18 A. It is. Yes, I would take men to those

    19 points.

    20 Q. And the shed that was used, about how far

    21 from the trenches was that shed?

    22 A. About 300 metres.

    23 Q. Was the shed visible from the trenches?

    24 A. No. No, because it was in the wood.

    25 Q. Can you recall, sir, what time was the last

  53. 1time you saw Mr. Livancic on the 15th of April, 1993?

    2 A. He was with us all the time, so I just don't

    3 know. How can I define the time? We were together.

    4 We were together in that shed.

    5 Q. But do you recall any time, say, on the

    6 evening of the 15th, when perhaps you might have been

    7 in the trenches and Mr. Livancic had a period of time

    8 back in the shed?

    9 A. No. Usually, being one of the older members

    10 of the group, I would merely take the shift to their

    11 posts and come back to the shed.

    12 Q. But do you recall, what about sleeping

    13 arrangements during the night? Do you recall whether

    14 you or Mr. Livancic took any sleep?

    15 A. Well, it was the two of us who were on duty

    16 in that shed from the beginning of the night to

    17 midnight and then from midnight onward. So the two of

    18 us took shifts.

    19 Q. If you were on such duty and you were taking

    20 shifts, where would the person who was going to sleep,

    21 where would they sleep?

    22 A. In the shed.

    23 Q. At what time did your shift end on the

    24 morning of the 16th?

    25 A. At 6.00 in the morning.

  54. 1Q. At that time, do you recall where both you

    2 and Mr. Livancic were at 06.00 that morning?

    3 A. I was on duty, and Livancic was asleep.

    4 Q. By "on duty," do you recall where you were?

    5 Did you go out to inspect the men, or were you in the

    6 shed?

    7 A. During that shift, from midnight to dawn, or

    8 rather until daybreak, I would go once, but it was 300

    9 metres. It's very close.

    10 Q. How long would you spend out at the trenches

    11 with the men?

    12 A. As a rule, the commander or his deputy going

    13 to inspect the guards, he would stay there 15 or 20

    14 minutes, perhaps, to see if there is anything new, if

    15 they need anything, and then goes back to the shed.

    16 Because until that time there were no problems at all,

    17 and there was no need for us who headed those shifts to

    18 be with men in the trenches.

    19 Q. A little earlier, sir, you did say that there

    20 were periods of time when indeed --

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry, Mr. Blaxill, I

    22 understand there is no translation into French.

    23 MR. BLAXILL: Mr. Terrier says he has no

    24 problem, so I'm just wondering if it's individual

    25 equipment.

  55. 1(Trial Chamber confers)

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Terrier, could you follow

    3 it in French, and could you also hear the witness

    4 speaking French, I mean, because it seems that the

    5 court reporter cannot follow.

    6 All right. I understand we may continue

    7 now.

    8 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Mr. President.

    9 Q. Could you tell me, please, sir, when did you

    10 start performing your duties in Kuber? When was the

    11 first time that you were sent up to those lines?

    12 A. I cannot remember the date, but we began to

    13 go out to Kuber, well, a long time before the outbreak

    14 of the conflict, because we were guarding this plateau,

    15 this highland which could have been a very good place

    16 for the Serb assault or things of that kind. But I

    17 can't remember the date.

    18 Q. Can you give me just a rough indication? Was

    19 it in 1992, was it in 1993, was it in the summer, the

    20 winter?

    21 A. Well, yes, in 1992 it was, but I cannot be

    22 more accurate as to the date.

    23 Q. Are you acquainted with Mr. -- well, you are

    24 acquainted, I believe, with Mr. Drago Josipovic. Is

    25 that correct?

  56. 1A. Yes.

    2 Q. Are you aware as to whether he was ever

    3 called to perform such duties up on Kuber prior to

    4 April 1993?

    5 A. No, he didn't, as far as I know, but --

    6 Q. Are you acquainted with Mr. Zoran Kupreskic

    7 or Mr. Mirjan Kupreskic?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Are you aware as to whether either of them

    10 were ever called upon to do this kind of reservist duty

    11 on Kuber prior to April 1993?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. Are you acquainted with Mr. Dragan Papic?

    14 A. I am.

    15 Q. Are you aware as to whether he ever performed

    16 such duties prior to April 1993?

    17 A. No.

    18 Q. How long, sir, did it take to go from Kuber

    19 down to your home village of Santici on foot?

    20 A. An hour and 40 minutes or thereabouts.

    21 Q. You referred to Mr. Nenad Santic as somebody

    22 dealing with coordination of certain activities. Would

    23 it be true to say that Mr. Nenad Santic was a form of

    24 local HVO commander in the Santici region? Would that

    25 be a fair description?

  57. 1A. Nenad Santic cooperated with the municipal

    2 government and with the national defence office, so he

    3 was a kind of associate. He cooperated.

    4 Q. Did your unit ever have direct contacts with

    5 Mr. Santic?

    6 A. I don't understand your question, really. As

    7 far as I do understand you, Mr. Nenad Santic

    8 transmitted -- he was the one who conveyed the orders

    9 or agreements regarding the guard duty, going to Kuber,

    10 and things of that kind.

    11 Q. But how would that actually be communicated?

    12 Would somebody meet with Mr. Santic down in the

    13 village? Would he come up to Kuber? How would that

    14 communication take place?

    15 A. Well, it was usually couriers who did that.

    16 They would bring summons, instructions, and things of

    17 that sort.

    18 Q. Did you have any kind of radio communications

    19 with you on Kuber, as a unit?

    20 A. Later on, sometime -- right before the

    21 conflict, we had a radio station which was out of work

    22 so we could not use it, but we had nothing in the

    23 beginning and it simply did not work properly.

    24 Q. Well, in about April of 1993, did you have

    25 any kind of walkie-talkie radios or Motorolas or

  58. 1anything to assist your communications?

    2 A. Well, I told you already, at that time

    3 precisely we did have a kind of a station, but it

    4 wasn't really in good working order and we had no

    5 walkie-talkies.

    6 Q. Did you ever have radio communications with

    7 anyone in Ahmici?

    8 A. No, no.

    9 Q. Are you aware of any radio installations in

    10 Ahmici at that time?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. Just one final question, sir.

    13 During the nights when you were on duty with

    14 Mr. Livancic, what kind of break period would you take

    15 to have a sleep? I think you may have already said it

    16 was a couple of hours at a time, but perhaps you would

    17 confirm. How long did you arrange for each of you to

    18 sleep?

    19 A. Yes, I can do that. Since he was the

    20 commander, he would always be on duty, say, from 6.00

    21 until 12.00, that is, from 6.00 in the afternoon until

    22 12.00 at night. Then I would take over at midnight, at

    23 12.00, and stay on until day break, and he would

    24 sleep.

    25 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you.

  59. 1That concludes my questioning. Thank you

    2 very much, Your Honours.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Blaxill.

    4 Counsel Susak?

    5 MR. SUSAK: I have no more questions for the

    6 witness, Mr. President.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    8 Thank you, we have no questions.

    9 Mr. Pranjkovic, thank you for testifying.

    10 You may now be released. Thank you.

    11 (The witness withdrew)

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak, is your next

    13 witness Mr. Vidovic, Josip Vidovic?

    14 MR. SUSAK: It should be Dragan Calic now.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    16 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, just an

    17 observation and a question.

    18 We should like, as far as possible, to know

    19 the order in which the witnesses appear, because we

    20 received a note from Mr. Susak regarding the order of

    21 appearance but that order has not been respected, and

    22 it is very useful for us, in order to prepare, to be

    23 familiar with that order of appearance of witnesses.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. I think, Counsel Susak,

    25 I think the Prosecutor is right. We too have the same

  60. 1list, and that's why I mentioned Mr. Vidovic, because

    2 he was the next one on the list.

    3 Counsel Susak, could you be so kind as to

    4 tell us right away the list of your witnesses in the

    5 order in which you will call them today and tomorrow?

    6 (The witness entered court)

    7 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I had planned to

    8 hear for today Katica Kovac and Ivo Pranjkovic. I

    9 didn't know we would finish with these two witnesses so

    10 quickly, and I think that the Witness and Victims Unit

    11 have caused some confusion. We will hear Dragan Calic,

    12 after that Josip Vidovic, and after that Josip Covic,

    13 and then for Friday we have Finka Bralo and Anto

    14 Bralo.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Are all these witnesses here,

    16 all the five remaining?

    17 MR. SUSAK: Yes, they are all here. They are

    18 here in The Hague, but this is the last witness I have

    19 here in the courtroom. For tomorrow, I have Josip

    20 Vidovic and Josip Covic. Of course --

    21 (Trial Chamber confers)

    22 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I see now that

    23 you're following this on your list, but we give a list

    24 24 hours in advance and we have provided a list for

    25 today, and I should now like to inform you that Josip

  61. 1Vidovic and Josip Covic will be examined tomorrow, for

    2 the benefit of Your Honours and the Prosecution.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: But could you bring tomorrow

    4 three witnesses, just in case?

    5 MR. SUSAK: Yes, I thought of doing that. I

    6 always do prepare three witnesses, just in case, and I

    7 think Finka Bralo will be here tomorrow, and I would

    8 like to have her examined as well tomorrow, if

    9 possible.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. All right.

    11 Good morning, Mr. Calic.

    12 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Will you please make the

    14 solemn declaration.

    15 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    17 truth.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may sit

    19 down.

    20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak.

    22 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President.


    24 Examined by Mr. Susak:

    25 Q. Good morning, Mr. Calic.

  62. 1A. Good morning.

    2 Q. Will you please tell the Court your full

    3 name, date of birth, your occupation, and who you're

    4 living with?

    5 A. Do I need to stand up?

    6 Q. No. You may remain seated.

    7 A. My name is Dragan Calic. I'm the father of

    8 two children. I have a wife. I'm currently working in

    9 an enterprise called Trgovina.

    10 Q. Where do you come from?

    11 A. From Vitez.

    12 Q. Did you give us your date of birth?

    13 A. The 14th of June, 1955.

    14 Q. Thank you. We will start with very specific

    15 questions from the outset.

    16 Are you familiar with the term "Vjetrenice",

    17 "D.D. Vjetrenice, Vitez"?

    18 A. That used to be my own company that I worked

    19 in.

    20 Q. Just slow down a little bit, please. Just

    21 make a pause now and then.

    22 Did Vjetrenice have a warehouse in Santici?

    23 A. Yes, it did.

    24 Q. What was the name of that warehouse?

    25 A. It was known as warehouse number 3 as part of

  63. 1D.D. Vjetrenice.

    2 Q. What were you doing there?

    3 A. I was the supervisor of that warehouse, the

    4 foreman, warehouse number 3.

    5 Q. When was that warehouse built?

    6 A. In 1990, '91.

    7 Q. So in 1990 and 1991?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Were you then the foreman?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Until when?

    12 A. The warehouse was moved from Poculica to

    13 Santici, and it was newly built in 1990, 1991.

    14 Q. You said that you were the foreman there.

    15 Who was employed there?

    16 A. I had two assistant workers and two guards, a

    17 total of five.

    18 Q. What was the ethnic composition?

    19 A. All three ethnic groups were represented.

    20 Q. So Croats?

    21 A. Yes. Croats, Serbs and Muslims.

    22 Q. Will you tell us whether that warehouse has a

    23 yard and whether it is fenced in?

    24 A. Every warehouse has to have a fence, and this

    25 one had one too.

  64. 1Q. Is this warehouse next to the road, on the

    2 road?

    3 A. It is on the main road linking Vitez to

    4 Busovaca.

    5 MR. SUSAK: I see, the Vitez-Busovaca road.

    6 With the help of the usher, I should like to show the

    7 witness a sketch before proceeding to other questions.

    8 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit will be marked

    9 D26/4.

    10 MR. SUSAK: Maybe you made a mistake. 26/4?

    11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, D26/4.

    12 MR. SUSAK:

    13 Q. Mr. Calic, you have the sketch in front of

    14 you?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Will you look at it, please? Look at it

    17 under the ELMO, please. Will you take a pen, and move

    18 the microphone closer.

    19 A. Is that all right now?

    20 Q. Yes. Will you show us the road and mark the

    21 road with the letter "A"?

    22 A. (Witness complies)

    23 Q. How many entrance gates are there to this

    24 yard?

    25 A. There are two gates.

  65. 1Q. Will you describe where they are?

    2 A. Gate number 1 is the main entrance

    3 (indicating).

    4 Q. You call it the main entrance, so give it the

    5 number 1.

    6 A. (Witness complies)

    7 Q. And the second one?

    8 A. The auxiliary entrance number 2 on the side

    9 entrance (indicating).

    10 Q. Did those gates exist in 1993?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Will you tell us the role of gate number 1

    13 and, separately, of gate number 2?

    14 A. Gate number 1 was used for the entry of goods

    15 into the warehouse. It had a small gate that was

    16 always open and it was never locked. Gate number 1 was

    17 used for the entrance of transport vehicles, and it had

    18 an additional small gate which was never locked, and it

    19 was used by us, the personnel, and also by the

    20 consumers, by the customers.

    21 Gate number 2, when a truck enters, it had to

    22 go out through that gate because the area was not large

    23 and the driver could not turn around, so he would go

    24 out through gate number 2.

    25 Q. Would you draw a line from gate number 1 to

  66. 1number 2, the route taken by trucks? Will you please

    2 draw a line showing the route taken by trucks? Just

    3 draw a line.

    4 A. (Witness complies)

    5 Q. Fine, thank you.

    6 That's all regarding this sketch.

    7 MR. SUSAK: The Prosecutor, on the 11th of

    8 February, during the hearing here, 11th of February,

    9 1999, in my opinion made the wrong conclusion, that

    10 there was only one gate. It can be found on the

    11 transcript, 6.846, during the testimony of witness

    12 Zoran Strukar.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Are you asking a question?

    14 Because you are now making a conclusion.

    15 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, this is just by

    16 way of an introduction. You were not a member of the

    17 Trial Chamber at the time. Judge May was the president

    18 of the Trial Chamber. The Judge cautioned me at the

    19 time that I should tender certain documents through

    20 another witness. That advice was welcome, and that

    21 witness is this foreman. So I'm saying this by way of

    22 introduction. This is of no significance for the

    23 Prosecution or for the Defence, because these are

    24 photographs taken on the 16th of April, 1993,

    25 photographs taken by UNPROFOR.

  67. 1For this reason, I should like to ask the

    2 usher to show these photographs to the witness. This

    3 was Prosecution Exhibit P245.

    4 Q. There are some marks on these photographs,

    5 something has been written over them, but that is no

    6 obstacle for you to show us what is to the right of

    7 this tank and whether there is an entrance gate to the

    8 Ogrjev warehouse. This photograph was taken on the

    9 16th of April, 1993.

    10 A. I didn't understand your question.

    11 Q. This is a photograph from '93. Do you

    12 recognise the entrance gate to the Ogrjev warehouse?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Will you describe it and mark it?

    15 A. It's not a very good photograph. It's better

    16 on the monitor than on the ELMO.

    17 Q. Well, then, look at it on the monitor and

    18 tell us about it.

    19 A. Do I need to mark it?

    20 Q. Yes, do. Mark it with the number "2."

    21 A. (Witness complies)

    22 Q. Will you put a circle around that gate.

    23 A. (Witness complies)

    24 Q. Very well. Will you tell us, what is there

    25 that is whitish? Why is this white path, and when you

  68. 1take a photograph today, there's no path?

    2 A. Every gate has to have an access path, and if

    3 you can't see it nowadays, it's probably covered over

    4 with grass because it's not being used.

    5 Q. I see. So it's not being used. Tell us

    6 which gate this is. You showed us two on the sketch a

    7 moment ago.

    8 A. This is the side entrance.

    9 Q. Is it the gate leading from the asphalt road

    10 to the yard?

    11 A. Yes, but it wasn't always used. We called it

    12 an auxiliary gate, a side gate.

    13 MR. SUSAK: Could we ask the usher now to

    14 show the witness another aerial photograph, also taken

    15 in 1993. This was Prosecution Exhibit 247.

    16 THE REGISTRAR: Will this exhibit be marked

    17 on by the witness?

    18 MR. SUSAK: Yes. So will you mark it as

    19 D27/4, please.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: This one?

    21 THE REGISTRAR: The first photograph is

    22 marked D27/4, and the new one will be marked D28/4.

    23 MR. SUSAK: Yes, fine.

    24 Q. Mr. Calic, is that the same gate that we saw

    25 a moment ago?

  69. 1A. No.

    2 Q. Which gate is this?

    3 A. This is gate number 1.

    4 Q. Will you mark it with number "1," please.

    5 A. (Witness complies)

    6 Q. Will you explain to Their Honours how one

    7 enters the warehouse through this gate? Do you enter

    8 it from the asphalt road?

    9 A. Yes. Then there is a small 30-metre long

    10 path, and then you enter the yard.

    11 Q. How far is the gate from the asphalt part of

    12 the road?

    13 A. Thirty metres.

    14 Q. Will you draw a line from the asphalt to the

    15 gate and put a circle around it.

    16 A. (Witness complies)

    17 Q. You see those small pillars there, the

    18 smaller and thicker ones?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Are the thicker ones along the road?

    21 A. I don't understand.

    22 Q. Mr. Calic, you see those concrete poles along

    23 the roadside?

    24 A. Here, you mean (indicating)?

    25 Q. Are those pillars used for the iron gate,

  70. 1entrance gate? You said you entered through the other

    2 side.

    3 A. Yes, on this side, they were used for the

    4 fence.

    5 Q. And those over there for another purpose? So

    6 in order to enter the Ogrjev warehouse, you can't do it

    7 straight from the road, but you have to take a 30-metre

    8 long dirt road? Very well.

    9 On this photograph, will you mark with an

    10 arrow the direction from the entrance gate to the guard

    11 post? Just a line with an arrow, please.

    12 A. (Witness complies)

    13 Q. Fine. Thank you. So that's the path you

    14 would take. And if you entered through the other gate,

    15 what would it look like?

    16 A. You mean from the other gate?

    17 Q. Yes. Will you draw a line from the other

    18 gate?

    19 A. (Witness complies)

    20 MR. SUSAK: Very well. We're done with

    21 that. We have taken photographs of those same gates on

    22 the 19th of April this year, so I would like the usher

    23 for his assistance to show these photographs to the

    24 witness so that we can compare them with the

    25 photographs from 1993.

  71. 1Q. Mr. Calic, this is Exhibit D29/4. Will you

    2 please look at these photographs and tell us,

    3 photograph number 1, what gate does it show?

    4 A. Gate Number 2.

    5 Q. Will you mark it with the number "2," and

    6 draw an arrow from that gate in the direction of the

    7 guard house, which can't really be seen here; just an

    8 arrow, please.

    9 A. (Witness complies)

    10 Q. Fine. Now go on to photograph number 3 and

    11 see whether it also shows gate number 2.

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Will you put a circle around it, please.

    14 A. (Witness complies)

    15 Q. Will you put a cross on the actual gate as it

    16 opens, the entrance gate.

    17 A. You mean the entrance gate next to the road?

    18 Q. Yes.

    19 A. (Witness complies)

    20 Q. What is this wooden hut?

    21 A. It's a toilet.

    22 Q. Did it exist in '93?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Did you see it on the previous photograph?

    25 A. Yes.

  72. 1Q. Now, tell me what photograph number 2 shows.

    2 Is the entrance gate shown here too?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Will you mark it, please, with an "X."

    5 A. (Witness complies)

    6 Q. Is that gate number 1, or number 2?

    7 A. Number 2, next to the asphalt road.

    8 Q. Now, in front of that gate, the path no

    9 longer exists. Where did that path go before?

    10 A. It went inside the yard.

    11 Q. But before the fence was built, the path was

    12 maybe used by the local people?

    13 A. I really don't know.

    14 Q. Now mark with a "Y" the place where the

    15 toilet is. That is next to gate number 1, you said?

    16 A. No, gate number 2.

    17 Q. Yes, yes, of course, gate number 2.

    18 Mr. Calic, we've finished with those

    19 photographs. I have some more questions for you. You

    20 said that you were the foreman?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Did you have any guards there?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. What was the role of the guards, and what was

    25 your role there?

  73. 1A. Every warehouse had a foreman, and that was

    2 what I was. I had two assistant workers and two

    3 guards.

    4 Q. When did the guards start performing their

    5 duties?

    6 A. From 4.00 p.m. until 8.00 a.m. the next day,

    7 until 0800 hours the next day.

    8 Q. And when did you come to work in the morning?

    9 A. If I didn't come at 8.00, then my assistant

    10 would come. Anyway, someone had to be there at 8.00.

    11 Q. Could a guard leave the warehouse before you

    12 came to work?

    13 A. According to all the rules of the company, he

    14 should not.

    15 Q. So was what his duty?

    16 A. His duty was to wait until the assistant or

    17 the foreman arrived.

    18 Q. And then he would leave?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. How did they perform their duties? Were they

    21 two per shift?

    22 A. No, they were one per shift. They would be

    23 working one night and resting the next night. So they

    24 took turns.

    25 Q. Gate number 1 that was next to the asphalt

  74. 1road, was it ever locked?

    2 A. The big one, yes, and the small one, no.

    3 Q. So you misunderstood me. We are talking

    4 about two entrances to the warehouse. I'm talking

    5 about gate number 1, next to the asphalt road. Was it

    6 locked, or not?

    7 A. I didn't understand you. You mean the big

    8 gate? There's a big gate and a smaller gate next to

    9 it.

    10 Q. I asked you before to explain whether there

    11 were two gates to enter the warehouse.

    12 A. Yes, two big ones. But this -- one of the

    13 big ones had an additional gate.

    14 Q. I'm talking about the two big ones. We're

    15 talking about the gate next to the asphalt road,

    16 number 1. Was it locked or not?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Why?

    19 A. For security's sake, so that cars couldn't

    20 enter.

    21 Q. Where was the key kept?

    22 A. In the desk.

    23 Q. When was it unlocked?

    24 A. In the morning, when you come to work at

    25 8.00.

  75. 1Q. Did this gate have an auxiliary entrance?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. I'm talking about the same gate, next to the

    4 asphalt road. How many doors did it have? I'm not

    5 talking about the big gate; I'm talking about gate

    6 number 1, next to the asphalt road. I'm talking about

    7 the gate next to the asphalt road, where the trucks

    8 entered, next to the toilet.

    9 A. It was locked non-stop. It was locked all

    10 the time. I was talking about the other gate, the

    11 number 1 entrance gate.

    12 Q. You mean gate number 2? Sorry, in that case

    13 it's my mistake. So gate number 2 was always locked,

    14 and when would be it unlocked?

    15 A. Only when goods were being unloaded.

    16 Q. Where was the key kept to that gate?

    17 A. In the desk.

    18 Q. Now we're going on to the other gate. How

    19 would you enter through that other gate?

    20 A. You would enter by a kind of side door.

    21 Q. So that gate had an auxiliary entrance?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. How many doors did that gate have?

    24 A. It had an auxiliary entrance plus two wings

    25 of the big gate. The big one was locked and the small

  76. 1auxiliary one was not.

    2 Q. Very well.

    3 MR. SUSAK: For clarity's sake, I should like

    4 to show another photograph with the help of the usher,

    5 and then we are through with this question.

    6 Q. Mr. Calic, this photograph shows gates

    7 number 1 and 2. Will you please tell us which gate is

    8 which? Are they the same gates we saw on the '93

    9 photograph, which gate is being shown on the screen

    10 now?

    11 A. We call it gate number 1.

    12 Q. With the auxiliary door. How do you enter

    13 this gate? Will you show us with an arrow?

    14 A. (Witness complies)

    15 Q. And on the second photograph, and here, how

    16 do you enter? Do you enter it straight from the

    17 asphalt road?

    18 A. It's about three metres away from the road.

    19 Q. So will you mark the entrance through the

    20 second gate.

    21 A. (Witness complies)

    22 Q. Fine. Where is the toilet, please?

    23 A. Shall I mark it?

    24 Q. Yes.

    25 A. How shall I mark it?

  77. 1Q. "X."

    2 A. (Witness complies)

    3 Q. So we are through with that now. Thank you.

    4 You said that this main gate that we marked

    5 with a number "1" was locked, but the small side door

    6 to it was not locked. Why was that side door not

    7 locked?

    8 A. For the need of communication. People kept

    9 coming and going. For a time there was no water

    10 inside, so you had to go out.

    11 Q. And during the night?

    12 A. It wasn't locked during the night either.

    13 Q. Why not, if there were guards there?

    14 A. We simply didn't do it.

    15 Q. The keys were always in the drawer of the

    16 desk?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. When talking about the guards' hut, was it

    19 locked, and do you know the layout of that small hut?

    20 Could you describe it to us?

    21 A. The guards' hut consisted of two parts. The

    22 first part was a kind of living room, and the second

    23 part was a kind of office for me. The living room had

    24 an entrance door with a glass pane and one window, and

    25 my office also had a glass door and a window. Again,

  78. 1neither of these doors were locked.

    2 Q. Were the windows locked from the inside, or

    3 from the outside?

    4 A. From the inside, of course.

    5 Q. Was there glass in the windows and the doors?

    6 A. Yes, they were paned with glass.

    7 Q. If a person were to be locked in that room,

    8 could he leave the hut?

    9 A. Why not?

    10 Q. Mr. Calic, give us a whole sentence.

    11 A. Whoever were to be locked inside could leave

    12 it.

    13 Q. Why?

    14 A. Because it was easy to open the door from the

    15 inside.

    16 Q. How high were the windows from the floor?

    17 A. 1,20 to 1,50 metres.

    18 Q. You mentioned two rooms in that guards' hut.

    19 Was there a door between the two rooms?

    20 A. Of course. There was a connecting door

    21 between the two premises.

    22 Q. So they were never locked?

    23 A. No, never.

    24 Q. You mentioned the windows on that hut. How

    25 many windows were there?

  79. 1A. There were three windows to both rooms.

    2 Q. One faced where?

    3 A. One faced westwards, the other one eastwards,

    4 and the third one southwards.

    5 Q. Will you tell us, who were the guards in the

    6 warehouse?

    7 A. The guards were Borko Mijatovic and Aladin

    8 Karahodza.

    9 Q. How old was Aladin Karahodza, roughly, and

    10 what did he look like? What was his appearance?

    11 A. I think he was between 27 and 30, something

    12 like that. Physically, he was rather skinny.

    13 Q. Was he healthy?

    14 A. Probably, yes.

    15 Q. Very well. Was he in the guards' hut on the

    16 15th, 16th, and 17th and on; do you know?

    17 A. Well, he took over the shift, and probably he

    18 was.

    19 Q. Was it his turn to be there?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. We are now talking about the 15th, so was he

    22 on duty on the 15th of April, 1993?

    23 A. He arrived before 16.00 hours and took over

    24 his duty.

    25 Q. Up to what time was he to be there?

  80. 1A. Until 8.00 a.m. on the 16th.

    2 Q. Who was to come to work on the 16th of April,

    3 1993, you as the foreman or someone else, for that

    4 guard to be able to go home?

    5 A. Well, it was an unwritten rule, whoever

    6 arrived.

    7 Q. So he had to wait until 8.00 a.m. the

    8 following morning?

    9 A. Yes. He could go regardless of who arrived,

    10 whether it was the assistant or the foreman.

    11 Q. Did you come to work on that day?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. Were you supposed to come to work?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Could you please give us a complete sentence?

    16 A. I was supposed to come, yes.

    17 Q. Why didn't you come to work on the 16th of

    18 April?

    19 A. On the 16th of April, I didn't come to work

    20 because of the gunfire, and also I have a stomach ulcer

    21 and I wasn't feeling well.

    22 Q. According to the rules, was the guard allowed

    23 to leave his post before the foreman arrived at work?

    24 A. The guard, according to the written rules of

    25 the company, was not supposed to leave his post.

  81. 1Q. Since the yard is fenced in, could you tell

    2 us what the fence looks like?

    3 A. The yard is fenced in with concrete posts and

    4 a wire fence.

    5 Q. This guard, since he was thin, could he have

    6 climbed over the fence even if he had been locked in?

    7 A. Considering the strength of the fence itself,

    8 a man like Aladin could have got over the fence. He

    9 could have climbed over the wire, and I think that an

    10 even heavier man could have done it.

    11 Q. How tall is that fence?

    12 A. The wire fence is 2,20 metres high.

    13 Q. Is there a gap between the ground and the

    14 fence or does the fence go right down to the ground?

    15 A. Between the ground and the fence, there is no

    16 gap, because when we put the fence there, then we put

    17 sand under it. We filled the gap with sand.

    18 MR. SUSAK: I would now like to ask the usher

    19 to take this set of photographs, because it will help

    20 us to get through the next evidence more quickly.

    21 THE REGISTRAR: The last photograph is marked

    22 D30/4. This is D31/4.

    23 MR. SUSAK:

    24 Q. Mr. Calic, you have before you a set of

    25 photographs. Would you please look at photograph

  82. 1number 1 and circle the small gate, gate number 1?

    2 A. (Witness complies)

    3 Q. What is the small door? Could you circle the

    4 small door on that gate?

    5 A. Photograph number 1?

    6 Q. Yes. Photograph number 1, does it show the

    7 gate number 1 which we marked on the UNPROFOR

    8 photograph which we looked at before?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Can you see what you called the small door

    11 which was never locked on that gate?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Can you circle it?

    14 A. (Witness complies)

    15 Q. So this is it. The other entrance door

    16 consists of what, where a truck would pass through?

    17 A. The auxiliary door?

    18 Q. Yes. Well, the auxiliary door is where you

    19 put a circle, and this was for people to go in. Where

    20 would a truck go in?

    21 A. I don't understand.

    22 Q. This is the gate in front of you, so you have

    23 put a circle on the small door. Could you now please

    24 indicate what else the gate consists of?

    25 A. Two big doors.

  83. 1Q. Could you mark these two big doors with "X"

    2 and "Y", please?

    3 A. (Witness complies)

    4 Q. Now you will look at photograph number 4.

    5 Can you see it?

    6 A. Photograph number 4, yes.

    7 Q. You have problems with your eyesight, don't

    8 you?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Well, you have a photograph in front of you.

    11 Could you please look at photograph number 4? Do you

    12 see the hut there?

    13 A. Yes, I see a part of it.

    14 Q. Do you see the window?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Is that window glazed and is it on the ground

    17 floor?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Could you please put an "X" on that window?

    20 A. (Witness complies)

    21 Q. Now could you look at photograph number 5?

    22 What window is it? Is that the hut where this man is?

    23 A. Yes, and this is the west window

    24 (indicating).

    25 Q. Where does it face?

  84. 1A. To the west.

    2 Q. Whose houses are west of that window? Are

    3 they Muslim houses or Croatian houses?

    4 A. Well, the first house is a Muslim house.

    5 Q. Very well. We have finished with this part.

    6 Now would you please look at photograph

    7 number 6? Is that the guards' hut that we can see on

    8 this photograph?

    9 A. We can see only a corner of the guards' hut.

    10 Q. But we can see the window? Can we see the

    11 window?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. How is it that I can see it?

    14 A. I can see it on photograph number 7.

    15 Q. I was asking you about photograph number 7.

    16 A. Yes, I can see the window on photograph

    17 number 7.

    18 Q. Would you please mark it?

    19 A. (Witness complies)

    20 Q. Now we will look at the next page, photograph

    21 number 11. Is this the entrance door leading to the

    22 office?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Would you mark it with an "X"?

    25 A. (Witness complies)

  85. 1Q. What is there to the right of the door?

    2 A. This is the eastern window.

    3 Q. Could you mark it with "Y"?

    4 A. (Witness complies)

    5 Q. Now would you look at photograph number 13?

    6 What does it represent?

    7 A. A window.

    8 Q. Can we see how this window can be opened and

    9 closed?

    10 A. From the inside of the office.

    11 Q. From the inside, can you see the knob or the

    12 handle by which the window is opened?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. We have now completed this part of the

    15 questioning.

    16 Mr. Calic, you said that you were ill?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Did you go to the doctor then?

    19 A. I went to the doctor in Busovaca.

    20 Q. On that day or later?

    21 A. On that day, the 16th.

    22 Q. When did you come back to the warehouse

    23 compound?

    24 A. On the 18th of April.

    25 Q. On the 18th of April. What condition did you

  86. 1find the hut in where your office is?

    2 A. I found the hut in a completely normal state,

    3 just as we had left it when we were leaving it.

    4 Q. Could you speak closer to the microphone?

    5 A. On the 18th, I found the hut in the same

    6 condition as it was when I left it, so there were no

    7 changes.

    8 Q. Did you see any shattered windows or doors?

    9 A. No, nothing was shattered.

    10 Q. Was the door locked?

    11 A. No, the door wasn't locked.

    12 Q. Very well. Was there a telephone in the

    13 guards' hut or in your office?

    14 A. Yes, there was a telephone in the office.

    15 Q. Did you find it there?

    16 A. Yes, I found it there when I came back.

    17 Q. Was it in working order or not?

    18 A. Yes, it was in working order, but there was

    19 no signal.

    20 Q. So it wasn't broken?

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. Did you find anything else in the hut?

    23 A. In the office in the hut, I found, because

    24 every guard had a pistol with two rounds of ammunition

    25 belonging to the company, I found this in good order,

  87. 1and I also found the book where records were kept of

    2 the weapons of the guards and observations made by the

    3 guards.

    4 Q. Was anything noted down by the guard in that

    5 book?

    6 A. No, nothing. There was no change.

    7 Q. So what did you find on the desk?

    8 A. Well, in the drawer I found a pistol and two

    9 rounds of ammunition.

    10 Q. Was Aladin Karahodza issued with that pistol

    11 and ammunition?

    12 A. Yes, he had been issued with it.

    13 MR. SUSAK: Your Honours, I would now like to

    14 show a video. If there is not to be a break, I would

    15 like to finish with this witness today, Mr. President,

    16 if it is possible. I think I will be able to do so.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, Counsel Susak, but we

    18 need a break, a 15-minute break, because of the

    19 interpreters.

    20 Do you want now to have a break and then we

    21 resume in 15 minutes, or do you want to show, first of

    22 all, this videotape?

    23 MR. SUSAK: Well, maybe we could see the

    24 videotape before the break, because that will leave

    25 less for after the break.

  88. 1JUDGE CASSESE: All right.

    2 MR. SUSAK: It is Exhibit D12/4. D12/4.

    3 (Videotape played)

    4 MR. SUSAK:

    5 Q. Then you will tell us whether this is the

    6 gate.

    7 A. This is gate number 1.

    8 Q. Number 1, which doesn't give onto the asphalt

    9 road right away?

    10 A. Yes, it's about 30 metres away from the

    11 asphalt road.

    12 Q. So this is the wire fence. Is the wire

    13 strong enough for someone to climb over it?

    14 A. Yes. It's like a kind of ladder, so you can

    15 climb it like a ladder.

    16 Q. Is this the guards' hut?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Has anything been added to it?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Do you see the changes now on this video?

    21 A. No, not now.

    22 Q. Can you describe what has been added on to

    23 it?

    24 A. Well, I can't see it. You have to go

    25 forward.

  89. 1Q. Well, the video is going its own way. So

    2 this is the gate; right?

    3 A. Yes. So first you have to leave the asphalt

    4 road, and then you come to the gate.

    5 Q. This is the small door?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Whose houses are these?

    8 A. This house which is destroyed is a Muslim

    9 house. I don't know about the others because I am not

    10 a native of Santici. I don't live there.

    11 Q. So we can see that you can't go straight from

    12 the road through the gate, and this is the guards'

    13 hut. This is how you enter from the outside?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. This is the small door?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. These are the windows on the guards' hut.

    18 Can you see them?

    19 A. Yes, I can see the western and the southern

    20 window.

    21 Q. This is the west window?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. This is the door?

    24 A. Yes, the auxiliary gate.

    25 MR. SUSAK: So this is the door which opens

  90. 1and closes and is never locked.

    2 Could you speed up this video, please? I

    3 don't think we need to linger.

    4 Q. Can you see, this fence goes right down to

    5 the ground, doesn't it?

    6 A. Yes, it does.

    7 MR. SUSAK: This is where I would like the

    8 video to be stopped for a minute, where we can see the

    9 man climbing over the fence. Could you go back a

    10 little, please?

    11 Would you stop now, and can we look at it at

    12 normal speed now?

    13 Q. So is it possible to climb over this fence?

    14 A. Yes, yes. It's eight times six.

    15 Q. This man is a little heavier than Aladin

    16 Karahodza?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. And it would be easier if he stayed closer to

    19 the concrete post?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. To the east of this house are Muslim houses,

    22 so Karahodza could always have jumped out through the

    23 window and climbed over the fence.

    24 You can speed it up now, please. Now could

    25 you stop, please?

  91. 1And this is still the gate, gate number 1?

    2 A. Right.

    3 Q. This is the traffic going along the road?

    4 A. Yes, along the Vitez-Busovaca road.

    5 Q. You say these houses are Muslim houses?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Could you describe this hut? Do you know

    8 whether anything has been added to it and how?

    9 A. Yes. After the cease-fire, it was extended.

    10 Can you see the change?

    11 Q. Yes, yes. It's here; right?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. To the right of the door?

    14 A. Yes. When I look at it, it's on my right.

    15 Q. But the door was always there, and so was

    16 this window; is that right?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Why, as other witnesses have said, did not

    19 Aladin Karahodza leave the company throughout the day

    20 on the 16th, in your opinion?

    21 A. Well, on that day, in my personal opinion, I

    22 think there was a lot of gunfire on that day and that's

    23 why he couldn't leave.

    24 Q. So he couldn't leave because of the gunfire.

    25 If he had wanted to, could he have gone out through the

  92. 1door of the guards' hut and out through the main gate?

    2 A. Yes, he could have, because neither the gate

    3 nor the door of the office was locked.

    4 Q. Could he have opened the window in the

    5 guards' hut which are closed from the inside?

    6 A. Since he was most probably inside, of course,

    7 he could have opened the windows because the handles

    8 are on the inside.

    9 Q. Do you know that the most intense fighting on

    10 the 16th of April, 1993, was along the road where the

    11 warehouse is?

    12 A. Yes. I didn't hear you. I didn't understand

    13 your question.

    14 Q. I said was the most intense fighting along

    15 the road where the warehouse is located? I'm referring

    16 to the 16th of April, 1993.

    17 A. I don't know.

    18 Q. Were some Muslims killed to the left and to

    19 the right of Ogrjev, whose houses are located in the

    20 vicinity of Ogrjev?

    21 A. When I arrived there the next day, I heard

    22 something about it.

    23 Q. So I'm asking you what you heard. You heard

    24 that there had been gunfire all day; is that right?

    25 A. Yes.

  93. 1Q. This is the window opening which opens from

    2 the inside?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. What is this?

    5 A. This is an electric heater.

    6 Q. Did you ever lock your room in that guards'

    7 hut?

    8 A. No.

    9 Q. Why?

    10 A. Oh, it wasn't usual, it wasn't our habit,

    11 because there was a safe where I kept my documents to

    12 which I alone had the key.

    13 MR. SUSAK: This is the iron fence.

    14 I think that this is enough, Mr. President.

    15 I would now like to stop.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. We'll take a

    17 15-minute break.

    18 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

    19 --- On resuming at 12.40 p.m.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak?

    21 MR. SUSAK:

    22 Q. Mr. Calic, so you worked in that compound.

    23 Will you please explain if the small door on that gate

    24 marked "1" was locked or not?

    25 A. The small door at gate number 1 was never

  94. 1locked.

    2 Q. Was there a key to that door?

    3 A. There was a key to the door.

    4 Q. And where was it?

    5 A. It was with other keys in the desk in the

    6 office.

    7 Q. After April 16th, you came to the guards'

    8 hut, did you find the keys there?

    9 A. I found the keys in the desk.

    10 Q. Did you find the keys to all doors?

    11 A. They were all on one, what should I call it,

    12 they were all together.

    13 Q. So they were all hanging on one and the same

    14 ring. How do you explain, then, that some witnesses

    15 saw Aladin Karahodza run across the yard on the 16th of

    16 April, '93, in the afternoon, across the yard to gate

    17 number 2, towards the asphalt road where the UNPROFOR

    18 tank was? How do you explain that he ran in that

    19 direction rather than to the main gate, which is gate

    20 number 1?

    21 A. I think --

    22 MR. BLAXILL: Pardon me if I interrupt, but I

    23 just doubt the validity of the question. The witness

    24 has already clearly stated he was nowhere near the

    25 building on the 16th of April, so he is being asked

  95. 1essentially not even to comment on what may have been

    2 said to him but to speculate why a man ran in one

    3 direction and not another, and he cannot speak to that,

    4 I'm sure.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, I think it's a good

    6 objection.

    7 Counsel Susak, can you move on to another

    8 question?

    9 MR. SUSAK: I do not agree with this

    10 objection, but then I will move on to another

    11 question. Mr. Calic knows the area, the houses, and

    12 the deployment of Muslims who were armed, and Croats as

    13 well. So that is perhaps why Aladin Karahodza chose

    14 the road to gate number 2 rather than gate number 1.

    15 However, I will leave that question aside and ask

    16 another question.

    17 Q. If you go from the guard hut to gate number 1

    18 as against moving from that hut to number 2, is there a

    19 better shelter when one moves towards gate number 2

    20 than towards gate number 1?

    21 A. Since the office had an extension, a roofed

    22 part where the goods were unloaded, it was better

    23 sheltered from any fire, from any bullets, than gate

    24 number 2.

    25 Q. Was it a problem for Aladin Karahodza to

  96. 1climb over the wire fence at gate 2?

    2 A. The wire fence is the same all around. The

    3 whole compound was encircled by the same wire fence, so

    4 he could have climbed it at any place.

    5 Q. Was there some area -- was there some free

    6 room between the wire fence and the ground? Could one

    7 get under the wire fence?

    8 A. There was absolutely no room for a cat to get

    9 through, let alone a man.

    10 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I should like to

    11 round off my questions. On the first videotape there

    12 is no gate number 2. I should like to finish my

    13 questions with showing briefly tape number 2, and it is

    14 about the warehouse of Ogrjev. I'm proposing to do

    15 this because it was not clear at the outset whether

    16 there were one or two gates to the Ogrjev warehouse.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: But is it necessary? I mean,

    18 is it disputed that there were two entrances?

    19 MR. BLAXILL: No, not at all. And certainly,

    20 if we are looking to 1993, the witness has clearly

    21 stated there were two sets of large gates which were in

    22 use for vehicular access. We are quite happy to agree

    23 with that as being as read.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. It is not disputed.

    25 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, my learned friend from

  97. 1the Prosecution, for accepting this and thus saving

    2 time for all of us. I have no further questions.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    4 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, just one more

    5 thing. I should like to tender all these documents

    6 into evidence.

    7 MR. BLAXILL: No objections.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. They are admitted

    9 into evidence.

    10 Counsel Pavkovic?

    11 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Honours, other Defence

    12 counsel have no questions for this witness.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    14 Mr. Blaxill?

    15 MR. BLAXILL: I have a few, Your Honours, and

    16 I can assure you, very briefly, very briefly.

    17 Cross-examined by Mr. Blaxill:

    18 Q. Sir, if I can just ask you a number of

    19 questions, my name is Michael Blaxill, I'm one of the

    20 Prosecutors in this case. I think we have just

    21 confirmed that you had two sets of large gates which

    22 were used in 1993 for vehicles to gain access and to

    23 exit from the Ogrjev premises; that is correct, sir?

    24 A. Yes. In 1993, there were two gates.

    25 Q. When they were not being used for vehicular

  98. 1access, I believe you said that those gates, the big

    2 ones were locked, but the small personnel gate was kept

    3 open at all times; that is also correct, sir?

    4 A. It is. The small gate was always kept open

    5 for communication, for getting into and getting out of

    6 the warehouse.

    7 Q. And as to the wire fence around the premises,

    8 has that been changed in any way since 1993? Has the

    9 wire been renewed? If it's renewed, is it the same

    10 style of wire that there was there in 1993?

    11 A. No, it has not been changed at all.

    12 Q. Just to confirm, you were at work, were you,

    13 on the 15th of April of '93?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. You did not go near the Ogrjev premises at

    16 all on the 16th of April?

    17 A. No, I didn't.

    18 Q. And the next time you went to work was the

    19 17th of April?

    20 A. No, the 18th of April.

    21 Q. The 18th of April? Thank you, sir.

    22 I would like, if I may, you to look at the

    23 exhibit we've marked, I think it's 27/4. It's the

    24 picture with an UNPROFOR tank on the street. Do you

    25 have that one there, sir? I'm going to ask you one

  99. 1question. It may be a little unclear on that

    2 photograph, though I do have a clearer colour one if we

    3 need to refer to it.

    4 Sir, if you look at the gate, the entrance

    5 gates that are seen on that photograph, to my eye it

    6 looks as though there is a bit of a gap between the

    7 bottom of the gate and the ground. Is that so? Was

    8 there a gap there in 1993, below those gates?

    9 A. The gate itself, the gate itself is attached

    10 to posts which keep it fixed. Of course there must

    11 have been some 5-centimetre gap simply so as to be able

    12 to open the gate, because one cannot really have the

    13 gate reaching down to the ground.

    14 Q. So how deep was that gap, do you think?

    15 A. The gate itself, you mean? I believe about

    16 five metres.

    17 Q. No, sorry, I meant the gap between the bottom

    18 of the gate and the ground.

    19 A. Five centimetres, at least.

    20 Q. One final thing, sir. Just to confirm, I

    21 believe you've already stated it, the gate, the small

    22 personnel gate that you did not lock was actually

    23 capable of being locked; that is correct? And there

    24 was a key for it; yes?

    25 A. There was.

  100. 1MR. BLAXILL: I'd like to confer for just one

    2 moment, Your Honours.

    3 Q. One final point, if I may. Your guards did

    4 have, did they not, a pistol and some ammunition on the

    5 premises of the guardhouse?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. When you returned to work on the 18th of

    8 April, did you, in fact, have cause to check whether

    9 the gun was still there?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Was it?

    12 A. The gun was there where one always left it.

    13 Q. Where was it -- I'm sorry. Did you want to

    14 finish something?

    15 A. Together with ammunition, two rounds of

    16 bullets.

    17 Q. Where was that, in fact, kept?

    18 A. It was kept -- I mean the pistol and

    19 ammunition were kept in the desk and the table that we

    20 also used for lunch.

    21 MR. BLAXILL: That actually concludes my

    22 questions. Thank you, Your Honours.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Blaxill.

    24 Counsel Susak?

    25 MR. SUSAK: I have no more questions,

  101. 1Mr. President.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    3 We have no questions, so therefore,

    4 Mr. Calic, thank you for giving evidence in court. You

    5 may now be released. Thank you.

    6 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

    7 (The witness withdrew)

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak, I gather you

    9 have no witness available?

    10 MR. SUSAK: No, I do not have any more

    11 witnesses, because I really could not anticipate when

    12 we would be finished with this witness. So we shall

    13 continue tomorrow.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. We will adjourn

    15 now until tomorrow at 9.00.

    16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

    17 12.55 p.m., to be reconvened on

    18 Thursday, the 24th day of June,

    19 1999, at 9.00 a.m.