1 Thursday, 24th June, 1999
2 (Open session)
3 (The accused entered court)
4 (The witness entered court)
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case IT-95-16-T, the
7 Prosecutor versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic,
8 Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic, and
9 Vladimir Santic.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning.
11 May I ask the witness to stand and to make
12 the solemn declaration.
13 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
18 Mr. Vidovic, I assume. I gather that the
19 order of witnesses today is Mr. Vidovic, Mr. Covic, and
20 then Mrs. Bralo. Is that so?
21 MR. SUSAK: Yes, Mr. President. Exactly so.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: So we can start with
23 Mr. Vidovic. Counsel Susak?
24 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 WITNESS: JOSIP VIDOVIC
1 Examined by Mr. Susak:
2 Q. Good morning, Mr. Vidovic.
3 A. Good morning to you all.
4 Q. Could you please introduce yourself. Tell us
5 your name, where and when you were born.
6 A. My name is Josip Vidovic. I was born on the
7 7th of November, 1944, in Vitez.
8 Q. And who are you living with?
9 A. I'm living with my wife and children.
10 Q. How many children do you have?
11 A. Two.
12 Q. Are you physically in good condition or not?
13 Were you able-bodied in 1993? Were you fit to serve in
14 the army?
15 A. No, I am disabled because I had surgery on my
16 spine, spinal surgery.
17 Q. What is your wife doing today?
18 A. My wife is a teacher in the school in Ahmici
19 where she is still working.
20 Q. So she's working in Ahmici to this day?
21 A. Now she's working in Santici.
22 Q. What is her ethnic origin?
23 A. She is a Muslim.
24 Q. What is her name?
25 A. Her name is Fikreta Vidovic.
1 Q. Will you please tell us whether you were ever
2 mobilised before or after the war?
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic?
4 MR. RADOVIC: The screens are not working,
5 Your Honour.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Your screen?
7 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel Radovic's is not
8 working, and the booths are not working, the screens in
9 the booths are not working, the interpreter booths,
11 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So we will try to
12 fix this matter.
13 Counsel Radovic, do you mind if we go on?
14 Because some screens are working, and in a few
15 minutes -- no? All right.
16 MR. SUSAK: So I can continue, Mr. President,
17 can I?
18 JUDGE CASSESE: I understand Counsel Radovic
19 is opposing.
20 No? We can continue? Thank you. All
21 right. So in matter of a few minutes, your screen will
22 be working. Thank you, Counsel Radovic.
23 Counsel Susak, you may continue.
24 MR. SUSAK: Thank you.
25 Q. Mr. Vidovic, were you ever mobilised into the
1 Croatian army, or rather the HVO?
2 A. No, I was not.
3 Q. For reasons of health?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you keep watch duty in your place of
7 A. No.
8 Q. So you didn't?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Would you tell us exactly where your house is
12 A. It is in Santici, number 51.
13 Q. Is it along the road?
14 A. Yes, 20 metres from the road, from the
15 Vitez/Busovaca road, on the northern side of the road.
16 Q. Whose houses are situated on the southern
17 side of the road? Are Nazif, Asim, and Ramiz Ahmic's
18 houses close by?
19 A. Ramiz's house is 30 metres from the road,
20 Nazif's 5, and Asim's 30.
21 Q. So those three houses are on the other side
22 of the road; that is, on the southern side of the road?
23 A. Yes, on the southern side, across the road
24 from mine.
25 Q. Could you tell us where you were on the 15th
1 of April, 1993?
2 A. I was in Split on the 12th and 13th. I was
3 waiting for my daughter, who was in Paris with her
4 child, so I went to fetch them in Split. I left Split
5 on the 14th, and there was a jam at Sebesce in the
6 night from the 14th to the 15th.
7 Q. So tell us when you reached Santici.
8 A. I reached Santici around 3.30 on the 15th.
9 Q. So we want to know what happened next. What
10 did you do on the 15th of April, 1993?
11 A. I arrived home. As it was raining, I left my
12 daughter and grandchild at home. The next day, I went
13 to fetch her at school, at a quarter to 4.00, and
14 brought her home.
15 Q. And until when did you stay home?
16 A. In the evening, as friends and relatives came
17 over, and the last guests left about 1.00 a.m. on the
19 Q. So until very late at night, you had this
20 party, and when did you go to bed?
21 A. I went to bed after that.
22 Q. Who else was in your house when you went to
24 A. Myself, my wife, two children, and a
1 Q. So we come to the day of the 16th of April,
2 1993. Tell us, what do you know about that day, the
3 16th of April, 1993?
4 A. On the 16th of April, 1993, about
5 five-something, I don't know exactly, my wife woke me
6 up. She said she heard noise around the house and that
7 I should go and look around. I got dressed and went
8 out. I went to the next-door house, Vinko Vidovic's
9 house, which is only a few metres away from mine. I
10 saw people in front of his house.
11 Q. What do you mean, "people"?
12 A. There were women, children, on the road. I
13 went up to see whether anything had happened, as these
14 are all relatives of mine. Then they told me that I
15 had to wake mine up, to get ready to go into a
17 Q. Did you take your family to the shelter?
18 A. It was hard for me to persuade them, but I
19 had to. I took them as far as the road, and I went
20 with the others.
21 Q. What happened with you?
22 A. I went back home.
23 Q. So you stayed at home on the 16th after
24 sending the family off to the shelter?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Will you tell us, in the morning, did you
2 hear where the gunfire was coming from?
3 A. No, it is very difficult to tell, especially
4 when you're inside. It seems to you that it's coming
5 from any side.
6 Q. If you had known that a war would break out,
7 would you have brought your daughter and grandchild
8 from Paris to Santici?
9 A. I wouldn't have brought her not only to
10 Santici, I wouldn't have brought her to that country at
12 Q. On the 16th of April, did you see soldiers in
13 your house?
14 A. No. In the house?
15 Q. I mean in the yard. Or let me rephrase it.
16 Did you see anyone in your garden on the 16th? Did a
17 person come to your house?
18 A. Can I tell you in order?
19 Q. Yes, do.
20 A. As I send them off to the shelter, I came
21 back home. There was gunfire. When it subsided a
22 little around 8.00, my nephew, Vinko Vidovic, was with
23 me in the house. Then we went outside to see his house
24 and his mother, how they were. Vinko went to his
25 mother's house. I circled around the house, and when I
1 came back into the house, I found women and children
2 inside. The wife of Sakib Pezer with her children,
3 Sefik Pezer's wife with children, Sefik Pezer's
4 daughter-in-law with children. There were three women
5 and some five or six with children.
6 Q. Were they all Muslims?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Will you give us a whole sentence in your
10 A. Yes, they were all Muslims.
11 Q. And then what did you do when you saw them in
12 your house?
13 A. What did I do? I asked them, "How come?"
14 And they said their houses were on fire. They didn't
15 know where they should go, so they had come to my
17 Q. Was it dangerous for them to be in your
18 house, since your house was right next to the road?
19 A. I told them that it was dangerous there, that
20 I had sent my family away, that they too should go, but
21 it was very hard to convince them to leave and go
22 anywhere. After some persuading, about an hour or two,
23 I sent Vinko Vidovic up to the road to see where the
24 others were, which shelter they were in. He found a
25 boy, Nenad Kristo, a young man of 16, as he was in the
1 shelter too, and he told him that they were all in
2 Slavko Vrebac's house.
3 Q. Go on, please.
4 A. So I suggested that they go there as well,
5 because they would be safer there, as we were right
6 next to the road. I wasn't sure as regards my own
7 safety, but they wouldn't go. Finally they agreed, but
8 they wanted someone to take them there, so I sent Vinko
9 to call Nenad Kristo to come over and take them there
10 because he knew the safest route to the shelter. About
11 1.00, maybe half past 1.00, Nenad Kristo came, and they
12 left with him in the direction of the Vrebac house.
13 Q. Slavko Vrebac?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you were still in your own house?
16 A. Yes, I stayed at home. Shall I go on?
17 Q. Yes, you tell us what happened.
18 A. About half past 1.00, my sister's son came
19 over, Josip Covic, to see how I was and what the
20 situation was like, and then he told me, when he had
21 seen that these others had left for the shelter, then
22 he said that our neighbours across the way were still
23 in their houses, that they hadn't reached the shelter.
24 Q. Mr. Vidovic, for the benefit of Their
25 Honours, will you tell us the names of the people you
1 are referring to? Whose houses were you referring to?
2 A. The house of Ramiz, Nazif and Asim Ahmic's
4 Q. The houses across the road from yours?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When he told you that, what did you do, the
7 two of you?
8 A. We discussed how we should go there, because
9 we didn't dare move around much, and so I asked Josip
10 to go back to his own house to enquire whether it was
11 safe to move around, so that we could go and see how
12 they were.
13 Q. Forgive me, I have to interrupt you. You
14 said that they should go and look for someone who would
15 make it possible for you to go across the road to the
16 Ahmici house. What did you mean, "Somebody"?
17 A. Well, I meant somebody who was well aware of
18 the situation and where and who could move around.
19 Q. What happened then?
20 A. About 15 or 20 minutes later, maybe half an
21 hour later, Josip Covic came with his brother Zoran
22 Covic and Slavko Rajkovic to my house.
23 Q. So they were in your yard?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Then what was the conversation that you had?
1 A. Slavko Rajkovic asked us who knew those
2 neighbours exactly.
3 Q. Zoran Covic and Josip Covic had brought him
4 over and told him what the situation was, and then they
5 asked you who knew those people well and who they
7 A. So I said I knew all of them, so myself,
8 Rajkovic and Josip, we followed him in line, one by
9 one, and we reached Ramiz Ahmic's house.
10 Q. Mr. Vidovic, when the three of you went to
11 the Ahmici houses, who went to fetch the Ramiz family?
12 Was it only you and Josip Covic?
13 A. Well, Rajkovic had a different role.
14 Q. Is that correct?
15 A. I and Josip Covic went with Slavko to the
16 Ramiz house, as this was a person who was allowed to
17 move around.
18 Q. Who?
19 A. Slavko Rajkovic.
20 Q. So when you reached those houses, whose house
21 did you reach first?
22 A. The house of Ramiz Ahmic.
23 Q. Who did you find there?
24 A. When we reached the house, we saw two
25 soldiers with masks, and Slavko Rajkovic went up to
1 him. They talked. They approached the stable door and
2 the garage. They opened the door, and the women and
3 children came out.
4 Q. When the women and children came out, where
5 did they go? Did anyone go with them?
6 A. When the women and children came out, because
7 we knew each other very well, Sena Ahmic and Sena's
8 daughter, Elma, came up to me and said, "Josip, what is
9 this?" I said I didn't know myself. Sena said
10 something to me, I didn't quite understand. I just
11 understood Elma saying there was soldiers in masks, and
12 she was pointing to her house. I'm not quite sure what
13 it was she was saying. She was probably referring to
14 soldiers with masks who had come to their house.
15 Q. Who told you that?
16 A. Elma Ahmic.
17 Q. Mr. Vidovic, what else did Elma say to you?
18 A. She said that they were all -- all had masks,
19 masked faces or painted faces.
20 Q. Let me read to you a part of Elma's statement
21 to see whether it coincides with yours. She says the
23 "On the 16th of April, 1993, I got up at
24 5.00 to study for school. I looked through the window,
25 and I saw the house of (redacted) on fire. Five
1 minutes later, about 20 soldiers in camouflage uniforms
2 came to our yard and started shooting at our house."
3 (Trial Chamber confers)
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak, I mean you
5 were reading a statement by Elma Ahmic, who has never
6 testified, to the best of our knowledge. Is it a
7 statement you received from the Prosecution?
8 MR. SUSAK: I received the statement from the
9 Prosecution, and I am surprised, but the Prosecution
10 does not object because the statement was given on the
11 28th of January, 1995. It was written by the
12 investigator of the Prosecution, and it was disclosed
13 to us.
14 In view of the fact that statements of other
15 witnesses were written after the indictment was
16 confirmed by the Tribunal, it seems to me logical to be
17 able to read a part of this statement in order to
18 verify the statement of this witness and to contribute
19 to the establishment of justice, anyway.
20 (Trial Chamber confers)
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak, since this
22 witness has not testified, we feel that you may
23 summarise her statement, but you should not put it in
24 evidence and it should not be put on the record. So
25 can you simply summarise that statement and ask
1 Mr. Vidovic to comment on that statement. Thank you.
2 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I only have
3 another three or four words to read from this
4 statement. When I was saying about Elma Ahmic's
5 statement, it was in quotation marks and I am
6 continuing. "They all had painted faces."
7 Q. Mr. Vidovic, what Elma told you, does that
8 coincide with the statement I have just read?
9 A. I think so. That is what she wanted to say
10 to me, because she was pointing with her hand and
11 saying "painted mask." That is probably what she
13 Q. Did she tell you they had paint on their
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So she told you that they all had paint on
17 their faces. When you saw these two men in front of
18 the Ahmic house, how were they dressed?
19 A. They had camouflage black uniforms and paint
20 on their faces.
21 Q. What do you mean?
22 A. I mean some coloured stuff on their face.
23 Q. And how was Slavko Rajkovic dressed?
24 A. Slavko Rajkovic was also wearing a camouflage
25 uniform, and he had some lines on his face.
1 Q. So we've come to the point when you said that
2 these Muslims came out. Where did they come from?
3 A. From the stable, where they were released by
4 the soldiers.
5 Q. Whose stable was it?
6 A. Ramiz Ahmic's. And when they came out, I saw
7 Asim Ahmic's wife and children, so I proposed to Josip
8 that the two of us go to see where the other women and
9 children were. So for safety's sake, we went behind
10 the stable where they had been locked up, and behind
11 the stable we came across four bodies, four corpses.
12 Among the four, I recognised three. One was that of
13 Ramiz Ahmic; the second, his son, Nazif Ahmic; and the
14 third body was Nazif's son. I think his name was Amir
15 Ahmic. I did not recognise the fourth body because the
16 face was turned towards the ground.
17 Then we went on to Nazif Ahmic's house.
18 Q. Mr. Vidovic, I have to interrupt you again.
19 You said "we"; what do you mean?
20 A. I mean myself and Josip Covic.
21 Q. So can it be said that you and Josip Covic
22 went to fetch the Muslims, whereas Slavko Rajkovic had
23 a different role? At your request, of course. Tell us
24 a little about that.
25 A. Yes, at our request, that we should find
1 somebody who could guarantee our safety -- not safety,
2 but allow us freedom of movement. That person was
3 Slavko Rajkovic. So Slavko, myself, and Josip Covic
4 went to Ramiz Ahmic's house, and after that I and Josip
5 Covic went to Hasim Ahmic's house to see where his wife
6 and children were.
7 Q. And then what?
8 A. From there, after seeing the bodies, we
9 passed under Nazif's house, and there I didn't feel
10 well any more. I almost fainted. I told Josip to go
11 and check, and three or five minutes later I saw Josip
12 coming back with a woman and children and going towards
13 the road up there.
14 Q. Very well, Mr. Vidovic. I will show you a
15 sketch, and I shall be asking you some questions in
16 connection with that sketch.
17 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, with the
18 assistance of the usher, I should like to show the
19 sketch to the witness.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, the
21 interpreters' monitors are not working, and it is
22 rather difficult for us.
23 THE REGISTRAR: This is Exhibit D32/4.
24 MR. SUSAK:
25 Q. Mr. Vidovic, have you got this?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Could you adjust this sketch so that you can
3 see it well and tell us where Ramiz Ahmic's stable is,
4 his summer kitchen, and his house.
5 A. The stable --
6 Q. Mr. Vidovic, would you mark the house with
7 "A," put a big letter "A" in the middle where the
8 house is, and then mark the summer kitchen with a
9 capital "B," and now you can tell us where the stable
10 is and mark it with "C." Could you please put two "Xs"
11 where the soldiers were -- or the persons; I don't know
12 whether they were soldiers or not.
13 A. (Witness marks)
14 Q. Very well. Could you show us where the door
15 and windows of the stables were, if there were any?
16 A. (Witness marks)
17 Q. You just said that when Slavko Rajkovic
18 brought you and Josip Covic there -- could you mark the
19 direction from which you arrived with an arrow?
20 A. (Witness marks)
21 Q. Very well. Would you please tell us where
22 you found the four corpses, and mark that place with
23 small circles.
24 A. (Witness marks)
25 Q. Among those persons, was Amir Ahmic, who was
1 a young boy, one of them? Was he?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Could you mark where he was with the
4 number "1."
5 A. Very well (witness marks).
6 Q. Could you tell us, whose house is the next
7 house to the left?
8 A. This is the house of Nazif Ahmic.
9 Q. Would you please write "Nazif" where that
10 house is.
11 A. (Witness marks)
12 Q. You said that you had gone to Asim Ahmic's
13 house; it can't be seen on this sketch, but would you
14 draw an arrow to show us the direction in which you
16 A. And then I went as far as this place
18 Q. So you stayed here?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And Josip Covic? So who took Asim Ahmic's
21 wife and children out of their house?
22 A. Josip Covic did.
23 Q. And where did you meet later?
24 A. He took them to the road behind the hedge, and
25 they went toward the shelter, and I crossed the road
1 and went on to my house.
2 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I have completed
3 this part of my examination concerning the houses, but
4 I would like to show the witness an aerial photograph
5 because there is a situation which the other witnesses
6 did not mark the houses at the end of the road,
7 especially on the north side.
8 THE REGISTRAR: It is Exhibit D33/4.
9 MR. SUSAK:
10 Q. Mr. Vidovic, can you see this aerial
11 photograph in front of you?
12 MR. RADOVIC: Please, Mr. President. While
13 these maps are being shown and sketches, we see
14 absolutely nothing, so we are unable to follow this
15 part of the proceedings.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, I do appreciate your
17 predicament. I understand this technical problem can
18 be sorted out only during the coffee break, so we have
19 to wait until 10.30, or if you prefer we can adjourn
20 now and, assuming that the technicians can sort out
21 this technical problem --
22 (Trial Chamber confers)
23 MR. RADOVIC: It's arrived, it's arrived.
24 MR. SUSAK: We may continue, then.
25 Q. Mr. Vidovic, could you please show the
1 Travnik-Busovaca road and put "Travnik" on one end, on
2 the white part, "Travnik" and "Busovaca" on the other
4 A. (Witness indicates)
5 Q. Would you please indicate your house here?
6 You can put a circle around it. Would you mark it with
7 number "1"?
8 A. (Witness indicates)
9 Q. What is the upper part or the northern part
10 from the road? What is there? Could you draw a line
11 and an arrow to say this is the northern part? You've
12 gone too far up. Just from the road.
13 A. (Witness indicates)
14 Q. Could you draw a line from the road toward
15 the north?
16 A. (Witness indicates)
17 Q. So that is the north. Put an arrow there.
18 A. (Witness indicates)
19 Q. So that's north. What is south of the road?
20 A. South (indicating).
21 Q. Very well. Would you now put numbers or
22 letters to indicate the houses of Ramiz Ahmic, Asim
23 Ahmic and Nazif Ahmic? With letters, please.
24 A. "A", "B", and "C", so Ramiz is "A", Nazif is
25 "B", and Asim "C".
1 Q. Could you tell us where the house of (redacted)
2 (redacted) is?
3 A. How shall I mark it?
4 Q. "D".
5 A. (Witness indicates)
6 Q. And the house of Fahrudin Ahmic or Hasim
7 Ahmic's house?
8 A. (Witness indicates)
9 Q. So we shall not mention names. Would you put
10 "E" next to that house?
11 A. (Witness indicates)
12 Q. So that is north of the road?
13 A. No, it's south.
14 Q. South, yes. You are north of the road?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Could you please tell us where Zoran Covic's
17 house is?
18 A. Should I circle it?
19 Q. Yes, circle it and mark it with "2" or "3".
20 A. "2" or "3"?
21 Q. You put "1" next to your house. Are there
22 any other numbers?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Well, then put number "2".
25 A. (Witness indicates)
1 Q. If you can find your way, could you show us
2 where the house of Anto Papic is? Could you adjust it
3 so that it can be seen on the monitor?
4 A. (Witness indicates)
5 Q. Very well. Is it the last house down?
6 A. Yes, I think it's this one.
7 Q. Could you mark it with "F"?
8 A. (Witness indicates)
9 Q. Is that house quite far away from the road
10 compared to the houses of Ramiz, Asim and Nazif?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. From Fahran Ahmic's house, can you see in the
13 direction of (redacted)'s house? Is there a good
14 view? Are there meadows there?
15 A. Yes.
16 When you look toward the road from (redacted)
17 (redacted) house, is there a good view?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. We have now finished with this photograph.
20 We shall proceed further.
21 You mentioned two men, and you said they were
22 wearing black uniforms and that they had paint smeared
23 on their faces?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Where did these people go when you and Covic
1 went to your houses?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. Where did Slavko Rajkovic go, or did he stay
4 near the houses of Ramiz Ahmic and the others?
5 A. When they left the stable, they all stayed in
6 front of the house and we went underneath the stable,
7 and I don't know where they went, the other people.
8 Q. We mentioned a Slavko Rajkovic. Do you know
9 whether he's alive today?
10 A. No, he isn't. I heard that after that
11 intervention, an hour and a half later, that Slavko
12 Rajkovic was killed some 800 metres away from that
14 Q. You say he was killed, and was that an ambush
15 prepared for him?
16 A. I don't know, but they say it was an ambush,
17 so that somebody liquidated him or killed him.
18 Q. Since you said that you had spinal surgery
19 and that you were not able-bodied for military service,
20 that you did not go on patrol and that you were not
21 mobilised in the HVO, could you say whether you were
22 given any shares in connection with the war?
23 A. Yes, I was given shares too.
24 Q. Could you tell me how it came about that you
25 did not participate in the war but you received shares?
1 A. Well, later when they were drawing up lists,
2 when the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina --
3 Q. The army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO?
4 A. Yes. There was to be a special ratio, a
5 special percentage, and a person from the Defence came
6 around and he said to me, "I'll put you down on the
7 list as well for that reason," and that's all.
8 Q. So did he say because you were in the area
9 affected by war?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 MR. SUSAK: Regardless of whether you
12 actually took part in the war. So I repeat, you say
13 you could not have been mobilised or go on patrol
14 because you had had spinal surgery.
15 Mr. President, I have no further questions.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
17 Counsel Pavkovic?
18 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Honours, the other
19 Defence counsel have no questions for this witness.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
21 Mr. Blaxill?
22 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Mr. President. Your
23 Honours, good morning.
24 Cross-examined by Mr. Blaxill:
25 Q. Mr. Vidovic, my name is Michael Blaxill. I'm
1 one of the Prosecutors in this case, and I would just
2 like to ask you a few questions as a result of what you
3 have said here today.
4 You say that you awoke at around 0500 on the
5 morning of the 16th of April, 1993, that you got your
6 family eventually to shelter, and that at around 8.00
7 at your home, you encountered a number of Muslim
8 neighbours who had come to your house. Is that a
9 correct summary?
10 A. That is correct, but I did not take my family
11 to the shelter but only as far as the road, and then
12 they were left with the others.
13 Q. You then say that your nephew, Josip Covic,
14 came over to you, and do you recall at about what time
15 that would have been?
16 A. About a half past 1.00.
17 Q. You say that after that, perhaps 15 to 20
18 minutes later, so we're saying a quarter to 2.00
19 perhaps, you and Josip Covic, Zoran Covic and, I
20 understand, if I heard you correctly, Slavko Rajkovic,
21 all made your way in the direction of the house of
22 Ramiz Ahmic; is that correct, sir?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What was Mr. Zoran Covic wearing at that
1 A. I don't remember. I think he was not wearing
2 a camouflage uniform.
3 Q. What was Mr. Josip Covic, your nephew,
5 A. He was wearing civilian clothes.
6 Q. Did either of those two gentlemen have any
7 form of weapon in their possession?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Mr. Slavko Rajkovic I believe you described
10 as wearing a camouflage uniform and having paint marks
11 on his face. Is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So would it be fair to say he was dressed in
14 the way similar to the other soldiers you saw that day;
15 is that right?
16 A. He was dressed like the other two soldiers
17 which we saw in front of Ramiz Ahmic's house.
18 Q. Was he carrying a weapon at that time,
19 Mr. Slavko Rajkovic?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How long do you think it took for you to get
22 to the house of Ramiz Ahmic?
23 A. Three to four minutes.
24 Q. So would I be correct in suggesting you were
25 there at around 2.00 in the afternoon of the 16th of
1 April, 1993; is that right, sir?
2 A. Around 2.00, maybe ten minutes past 2.00.
3 Q. Subsequent to that, a number of, if I
4 understood correctly, women and children were released
5 from a stable building near that house. Is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Behind that building, you identified the dead
8 bodies of four Muslim people?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. At what time do you recall leaving that
11 scene, the house of Ramiz Ahmic?
12 A. Around 20 past 2.00.
13 Q. At that time, did you see any other kind of
14 military personnel in the vicinity?
15 A. No, except the two soldiers and Rajkovic.
16 Q. Would it be true to say that these two
17 soldiers were, in fact, Croat soldiers we could
18 describe as HVO soldiers; would you say that was
20 A. I don't know the insignia. I don't know
21 whether they were HVO. They were probably Croats, but
22 I don't know.
23 MR. BLAXILL: On that basis, I thank you.
24 Your Honours, that concludes my
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Blaxill.
2 Counsel Susak.
3 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Re-examined by Mr. Susak:
5 Q. You said, Mr. Vidovic, that Rajkovic, Slavko
6 Rajkovic, was wearing black and that he was masked. Do
7 you know that person or not? Would you recognise him
8 now if I showed him to you?
9 A. No, I wouldn't recognise that person even ten
10 minutes afterwards.
11 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
13 I have no questions. No questions for the
14 witness from the Court.
15 Mr. Vidovic, thank you for testifying. You
16 may now be released.
17 (The witness withdrew)
18 (The witness entered court)
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Mr. Covic.
20 Will you please make the solemn declaration.
21 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
22 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
1 Counsel Susak?
2 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 WITNESS: JOSIP COVIC
4 Examined by Mr. Susak:
5 Q. Good morning, Mr. Covic.
6 A. Good morning.
7 Q. Would you please introduce yourself to the
8 Court with your full name, when you were born, where
9 you live.
10 A. My name is Josip Covic. I was born in 1971.
11 I live in Pirici and Santici, the municipality of
12 Vitez. I'm single, and I work at the post office.
13 Q. Are you still employed at the post office?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Very well. Would you tell us whether you are
16 familiar with the events of the 16th of April, 1993?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Where were you working at that time?
19 A. I was working in the Meos centre.
20 Q. Could you tell us what that is?
21 A. That is the observation and intelligence
22 service, and that was the civil part.
23 Q. So you were working in the centre for
24 alerting the population?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Were you an active-duty or a reserve soldier
2 of the HVO?
3 A. I was at the centre for alerting the
4 population, so I was in the reserves, in the
5 secretariat for national defence.
6 Q. So you're saying that this centre was
7 attached to the Defence secretariat of the Municipality
8 of Vitez?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So how do you explain that you were in the
11 reserves and you were working there? I thought you
12 were on active duty.
13 A. No, I wasn't. I simply worked in that
14 centre, because that is the civilian part. It belongs
15 to the municipality.
16 Q. Were you a reservist of the HVO, then?
17 A. I don't know. If this centre was part of the
18 HVO, then I was.
19 Q. So if you were in the reserve, was Anto
20 Bertovic your commander?
21 A. No.
22 Q. No?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Well, then, I drew the wrong conclusions.
25 Sorry. I considered you to be on active duty. Did you
1 go to work every day?
2 A. Yes, I went to work every day.
3 Q. Then how can you say that you were in the
4 reserves and you were active?
5 A. Well, I worked actively.
6 Q. So you want to say that this centre was
7 attached to the municipality and not to the brigade?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So you worked actively, but you were not an
10 active soldier?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. If you had been mobilised, what would you
13 have been? Active, an active or passive soldier of the
15 A. A passive soldier.
16 Q. But if you were mobilised, then you would
17 have been active; right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Would you tell us, where were you on the 15th
20 of April, 1993?
21 A. 15th of April, 1993, I worked. I was at my
22 work place at the centre, and then I came home around
23 10.00 in the evening. That was the regular shift.
24 On the 15th, then I asked that Dragan Stojak,
25 a regular authorisation -- that is, I had to ask for
1 that every time I needed -- I wanted Friday to have off
2 because of some pains which I had suffered from my
4 Q. Who was Dragan Stojak?
5 A. Dragan Stojak was the head of the
6 intelligence centre. And if I needed something, if --
7 whatever, then I had to go to Dragan Stojak.
8 Q. Was he also under the umbrella, if I can put
9 it that way, of the defence centre in Vitez?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. But he was your boss?
12 A. Yes, he was my boss.
13 Q. And the control and alert centre, was it a
14 civilian organisation or the military organisation?
15 A. It was civilian, part of the civilian.
16 Q. Of the Municipality of Vitez?
17 A. Yes, of the Municipality of Vitez.
18 Q. And you said you came home in the afternoon,
19 and you told us that Stojak let you off Thursday
20 afternoon so that you could have a long weekend; is
21 that so?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Where were you in the night between the 15th
24 and 16th?
25 A. I was at home with my family.
1 Q. And where did you wake up on the 16th of
2 April, 1993?
3 A. Yes, we were woken up by sounds of gunfire at
4 half past 5.00.
5 Q. And what did you do then? Did you go
6 anywhere? Did you stay at home after you were woken up
7 by gunfire?
8 A. My brother and I stayed home, and my father
9 and mother went to the next-door house where -- Mirko
10 Jukic's house.
11 Q. So your father and mother went to Mirko
12 Jukic's house?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you go anywhere during that day? Did you
15 leave your house at all?
16 A. No, nowhere, until half past 1.00, because at
17 half past 1.00 my father came to feed the pigs and do
18 various chores around there.
19 Q. So he came back from Mirko Vukic's house to
20 your home?
21 A. Yes, yes. And he said that Jozo Lovric and
22 Anto Vidovic had told him that from Ramiz Ahmic's, that
23 Ramiz Ahmic and his wife and their children and
24 daughter-in-law were in that house and that I should go
25 there and see that they all go to Slavko Vrebac's
1 house, because everybody was there.
2 Q. And what happened then?
3 A. Well, then I went to Jozo Lovric's house and
4 to Anto Vidovic's house, and I talked to them about
5 Ramiz's family, and then I went to Jozo Vidovic's
6 house, because he is my uncle.
7 Q. So you talked to Josip there. What was the
8 conversation between the two of you, between you and
9 Jozo Vidovic?
10 A. Well, I told Jozo Vidovic about Ramiz's
11 family, that they should go, and that we should send
12 them on to Slavko Vrebac's house. We agreed that I
13 should go back home and fetch my brother Zoran and then
14 that the three of us should go together for safety,
15 just because of the safety, because fire came from all
17 THE INTERPRETER: Will you please slow down
18 so the interpreters can keep up.
19 MR. SUSAK:
20 Q. When you talked to your brother, Josip
21 Vidovic, where did you go then?
22 A. My brother and I -- that is, I went back to
23 fetch my brother. I told him and explained to him what
24 it was all about, and then my brother and I -- I mean,
25 when we started towards Josip's house, we met Slavko
2 Q. Yes, very well, so you met Slavko Rajkovic.
3 Did you then go to Jozo Vidovic together with Slavko
5 A. Yes, we did.
6 Q. And did you all get there?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And what did you talk about then?
9 A. My brother Zoran told Slavko -- he was
10 (indiscernible) kind of authority. He also told him
11 about Ramiz's family. So we all went to Josip --
12 Q. All three of you together?
13 A. Yes, all three of us. And down there I found
14 Drazenko Vidovic and --
15 Q. And how were they dressed?
16 A. I don't understand.
17 Q. What were they wearing? Semrin -- you said
18 Drazenko Vidovic and Semrin?
19 A. I don't remember what they were wearing.
20 Q. But were they in civilian clothes?
21 A. I don't remember.
22 Q. Will you then tell us, how did you go to
23 Ramiz Ahmic's house, and who went there?
24 A. When Slavko Rajkovic, Zoran, that is, my
25 brother and I reached Josip, we talked about Ramiz's
1 family, and Slavko Rajkovic asked me if anyone knew
2 him, was on closer terms with him, and I said that I
3 knew him fairly well, so that --
4 Q. You mean Jozo Vidovic said that he knew them
6 A. Yes, because they were next-door neighbours.
7 Q. I see; because they were next-door
9 A. Yes. And then Slavko Rajkovic, Zoran, and I
10 reached Ramiz Ahmic's house. We were in one file, one
11 after the other. When we reached Ramiz's Ahmic's
12 house, we found there two soldiers in black uniforms.
13 Q. Were they soldiers, or something else? Are
14 you sure? Are you positive they were soldiers, or just
15 plainly two men wearing black uniforms?
16 A. I think they were soldiers because they had
17 their faces painted; they were carrying rifles.
18 Q. Right. So will you please describe how you
19 approached them?
20 A. Well, we got down there. Slavko Rajkovic
21 approached those two soldiers, talked to them about
22 something, and then from the stable they released Ramiz
23 Ahmic's wife, Nazif Ahmic's wife, and Rasim Ahmic's
24 wife. There were two children, too. I can't remember
25 their names.
1 Q. And where were they?
2 A. In the stable, in Rasim Ahmic's stable.
3 Q. Did they leave on their own, or did somebody
4 take them away?
5 A. Josip and I, Josip and I, we went to the road
6 together, and then we told them to go to Slavko
7 Vrebac's house because it was safer there.
8 Q. And were there Asim Ahmic's wife and her
10 A. When we directed Nazim and Rasim and Hasim's
11 wife and children to Josip Vrebac's, then Josip told me
12 Asim Ahmic's wife was not there, and we should go to
13 Asim's house to see if she was still there.
14 Q. So who went to Asim's house?
15 A. Josip and I started down the lane below Asim
16 Ahmic's house; that is, between the summer kitchen and
17 the stable. And below the stable we came across four
19 Q. You came across four bodies; where was that?
20 Will you please be more precise?
21 A. They were below -- these four bodies were
22 below Ramiz Ahmic's stable. The first one was Ramiz
23 Ahmic; the second one was Nazif, Ramiz's son; the third
24 was the son of Nazif Ahmic, and the fourth one we could
25 not identify.
1 And then we continued to Asif's house, and
2 Josip stayed at Asif's, that is, stayed behind at the
3 Ramiz house, and I went to Asif's house, and I heard a
4 child cry from the -- I heard a sound coming from the
5 direction of the stable, so I opened the door and I
6 told them to go towards Slavko Vrebac's house.
7 Q. And those two other men who are uniformed,
8 Slavko Rajkovic were there?
9 A. Well, right below Ramiz Ahmic's house they
10 stayed in front of Ramiz's house, and what they did
11 after that, I don't know.
12 Q. There is a road there, you said, Novi
13 Travnik/Busovaca. Is there a hedge next to the asphalt
14 part of the road leading in the direction of Ramiz,
15 Nazif, and Asim's house?
16 A. Yes, there is.
17 Q. What kind of a hedge is it? Is it something
18 natural, naturally grown, or ... ?
19 A. Well, it was at Ramiz Ahmic's part, and at
20 Nazif, there was this hedge, and Nazif's was sort of
22 Q. And so in the direction of Asim's house it
23 was somewhat trimmed as opposed to Nazif's house, the
24 hedge was just naturally growing?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You mentioned Slavko Rajkovic. And what was
2 he wearing that day?
3 A. He was wearing a black uniform, and his face
4 was painted.
5 Q. Was he armed?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you know, is he still alive today?
8 A. No, he is not.
9 Q. Do you know, was he killed in combat?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Where?
12 A. That same day, after Ramiz's family was sent
13 on their way, about one hour later.
14 Q. Would you be able to recognise him today?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you know when was he killed? Was somebody
17 else wounded at the same time?
18 A. The day when Slavko Rajkovic was killed,
19 Drazenko Vidovic and Ivica Semrin were wounded. It was
20 next to Izet Karalic's house.
21 MR. SUSAK: We have three annual photographs
22 of the military police, and I will show you Slavko
23 Rajkovic's photograph and ask you if you can recognise
24 him or not.
25 MR. SUSAK: Will the usher please help me,
1 please, and show it first to the Court and then to the
3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D355.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the
6 MR. SUSAK:
7 Q. Will you please show Exhibit 355 to the
8 witness. Let it be placed on the ELMO, and the
9 page 376, with Slavko Rajkovic's photograph.
10 Q. Do you know, is this that person, Slavko
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What does it say? When was he killed?
14 A. On the 16th of April.
15 Q. Which year?
16 A. '93.
17 Q. So on that very day, as you just told us?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And when does it say he was killed in Vitez,
20 why does it say Vitez rather than Santici?
21 A. Well, Santici is a part of the Vitez
23 Q. So what we have here indicated is the
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 Q. Could you tell us, who else lived next to
2 Ramiz, Asim and Nazif's house, or rather -- how far is
3 Musafer Puscul's house from this house?
4 A. Asim Ahmic's house is about 80 metres away.
5 Q. And from Nazif or Asim Ahmic's house, can you
6 see if somebody comes, or in other words, if a group of
7 soldiers were coming from the direction of Musafer
8 Puscul's house?
9 A. Yes, because Asim's entrance overlooks --
10 faces that part of the lane which goes to Musafer
11 Puscul's house.
12 Q. I shall repeat. What was Slavko Rajkovic
14 A. He had black clothes on him, a black uniform
15 on him.
16 Q. Was his face also camouflaged?
17 A. Yes, his face was camouflaged.
18 Q. So he was both camouflaged and dressed in the
19 same way as those who were in front of Ramiz Ahmic's
20 house, those two male individuals?
21 A. Yes, yes, identically. They were wearing the
22 same kind of clothes and had their faces painted.
23 Q. Did you know that Slavko Rajkovic was a
25 A. No, I did not.
1 Q. When did you find that out?
2 A. I found that out later, the day when he was
3 killed. Then they brought him -- those two elderly men
4 brought him over to those houses, I mean his body, and
5 he had a patch on his left arm.
6 Q. A patch, insignia, what was that?
7 A. Well, it was a patch which said "Military
8 Police" and then "Jokers".
9 Q. On the south side of the road, Ramiz, Nazif
10 and Asim Ahmic and other houses, how is it that nobody
11 came from the other side of the road to fetch Ramiz,
12 Asim and Nazif Ahmic's families to give them shelter,
13 and you came from the other side of the road and there
14 were Muslims in those houses, houses that you knew
15 about that and those others did not. How is it that
16 you, on the other side of the road, knew where they
18 A. Because Jozo Lovric and Anto Vidovic, who
19 were in the shelter, that is they first were in the
20 shelter, in the shelter next to Slavko Vrebac's and
21 they came out, and then there were others who were
22 there, I mean women and children, and they said Ramiz's
23 family was missing and so they had not come there to
24 find shelter.
25 Q. So from the northern side of the road which
1 was rather far from your house, you knew that there
2 were some Muslims who had stayed behind in Ramiz and
3 Asim Ahmics' houses, is that so?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So they knew about that, is that so?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could you tell us, where was Slavko Rajkovic
8 killed, next to whose house?
9 A. Next to Izet Karalic's house.
10 Q. Where is that house in relation to Josip
11 Vidovic's house?
12 A. North of it.
13 Q. So north of the road and Josip Vidovic's
14 house, and how far away from Josip Vidovic's house?
15 A. About, I should say, 200 metres.
16 Q. So they knew about Muslims who had stayed
17 behind in Ramiz and Asim Ahmics' houses.
18 Just one question more. When you went with
19 Slavko Rajkovic to this stable, Ramiz Ahmic's stable,
20 were those two male individuals with painted faces and
21 wearing black, did Slavko Rajkovic talk to them, so
22 would you conclude that it was Slavko Rajkovic who was
23 ordering them to let the Muslims from Ramiz Ahmic's
25 A. Well yes, he approached and went to them, he
1 talked to them, and immediately they were released. So
2 I believe he had some authority over them.
3 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, thank you very
4 much. I have no more questions.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Pavkovic?
6 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, this has
7 already become a routine of late. Other counsel have
8 no questions for this witness.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
10 Mr. Terrier, would you do it now or would you
11 rather that we make a break? Do you have many
12 questions? More than ten minutes, don't you?
13 MR. TERRIER: Yes.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Let's have a break now, the
15 usual 30-minute break.
16 --- Recess taken at 10.17 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Terrier?
19 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Cross-examined by Mr. Terrier:
21 Q. Good morning. I'm Franck Terrier, and I
22 represent the Prosecution in this case, and I should
23 like to ask you several questions on the basis of your
25 First, I should like to go back to your
1 profession -- that is, whether you were a civilian or
2 military -- because I did not quite understand that.
3 You told us, if I understood you properly, that you
4 were employed by the military, that you were in a form
5 of military, but you were a reservist rather than an
6 active-duty military; is that correct?
7 A. I don't understand the question.
8 Q. Let me try and rephrase it. In April 1993,
9 did you perform your job, and what was your job? Will
10 you please tell us, as precisely as possible, what is
11 it that was your job that April?
12 A. Well, I worked for the centre for reporting,
13 monitoring, and alerting. I worked there actively, but
14 that was a civilian part of the Municipality of Vitez
15 and not the military one, because it was under the
16 national defence secretariat of the Municipality of
18 Q. So it was an organisation which was under the
19 defence secretariat of Vitez; is that so?
20 A. Well, it is the civilian. It was under the
21 civilian part of the Municipality of Vitez. It was the
22 monitoring and alerting centre, so it was to alert in
23 case of a natural disaster, too. So what I did was
24 just sit by the telephone, and citizens would then seek
1 Q. Who were your superiors? What was the
2 hierarchical structure?
3 A. I don't understand the question.
4 Q. Who issued orders to you? Who did you
5 receive orders from in the course of your work?
6 A. Dragan Stojak, because he was the head of the
7 monitoring and alerting centre.
8 Q. And who was Anto Bertovic?
9 A. Anto Bertovic was the commander of the
10 battalion, or a brigade. I don't really know what it
12 Q. Were you under the authority of Anto
14 A. No, I was not.
15 Q. Did you wear a uniform when you went to work?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. Could you describe the type of the uniform
18 that you wore to work?
19 A. It was an ordinary camouflage uniform that
20 I'd bought myself, but at that time children also could
21 buy one. At that time it was quite ordinary.
22 Q. Were there any insignia on that particular
24 A. No, there were not.
25 Q. Would you go back home, or did you stay in
1 Vitez in the centre for monitoring and alerting? What
2 was the usual thing that you did?
3 A. I went to work every day, and I would go home
4 on Thursdays. That is, I would work during those
5 several days. I would go home on Thursdays, and I
6 always had Friday off. That was an agreement I had
7 reached with Dragan because I had a problem with back
8 pain, so that I always had three days off.
9 Q. Let us now move on to the 16th of April. You
10 told us that you were awakened by gunfire, or rather
11 that you heard those shots when you woke up, and you
12 told us that you stayed all day, or rather all morning;
13 you were at home. Did I get your answer well?
14 A. Yes, I was woken up by the gunfire, and I
15 spent the morning at home.
16 Q. And you stayed at home all morning?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What were you wearing at the time?
19 A. Well, that camouflage uniform that I had
21 Q. Did you have a weapon with you?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You told us, if I understood you properly,
24 that your brother Zoran was with you that morning; is
25 that correct?
1 A. Yes, it is.
2 Q. What did your brother do at the time?
3 A. He was at home with me. We simply did not
4 think there was any need for us to leave home. At the
5 time, there were many cases of theft and things like
6 that, and we decided we would stay at home.
7 Q. Did your brother hold a job at the time?
8 That was my question; did he have a profession of a
9 kind, or a job? Did he hold a job then?
10 A. My brother worked for a company called
11 Princip, but at that particular period of time, he was
12 also on holidays, and he was using his holidays.
13 Q. Since when had he been on holidays?
14 A. I don't remember that. I know that it was a
15 few days before, so that -- I really don't remember. I
16 don't remember the date.
17 Q. But as a rule, did your brother Zoran live in
18 Ahmici, or elsewhere, at the time when he went to work?
19 A. My brother lived in Santici.
20 Q. What was your brother wearing that day?
21 A. Civilian clothes.
22 Q. You told us, Witness, about Rajkovic, and you
23 told us that this individual was killed that 16th of
24 April. Could you please tell us, who did you learn
25 this from? Who gave you this information? Please be
1 as accurate as possible.
2 A. I don't quite understand the question. Could
3 you please repeat it?
4 Q. You spoke about Rajkovic, a member of the
5 military police, Jokers, a member of Jokers, according
6 to our testimony, who was killed on the 16th of April
7 in Santici, Pirici, or Ahmici. Were you an eyewitness
8 to his death?
9 A. No, I did not see it with my own eyes. I was
10 not there. I heard it from the wounded, from Drazenko
11 Vidovic and Jovinko Samir.
12 Q. You also mentioned somebody called Semrin; do
13 you remember that? Ivica Semrin.
14 A. Ivica Semrin? Yes, so I did. Yes, I did
15 mention him.
16 Q. Could you remind us what you said? It's
17 simply to clarify your testimony.
18 A. I don't understand the question.
19 Q. What is it that you told us about Ivica
20 Semrin? Could you please repeat it? Will you please
21 repeat just what you said a while ago?
22 A. All I know is that he was wounded at the same
23 place, at the same place where Slavko Rajkovic got
24 killed. Because later on, after a certain period of
25 time, I learned that it had happened.
1 Q. Could you tell us, who is it that you heard
2 it from about the wounding of Ivica Semrin? Who told
3 you, and when, that he had been wounded?
4 A. I learned that about an hour and a half after
5 Ramiz Ahmic's family was released, because Drazenko
6 Vidovic, who had a perforating wound in his chest, he
7 somehow managed to get from Izret Karalic's house, and
8 he told me that Ivica was there.
9 Q. What was Ivica Semren?
10 A. Ivica Semrin was my neighbour.
11 Q. Was he a soldier?
12 A. No, he was not.
13 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I have this -- I
14 did not show it to the Defence, because I did not think
15 that this episode would be mentioned, because I did not
16 think it was important. But I have here a certificate
17 issued by the Vitez Brigade saying that Ivica Semrin,
18 born the 29th of April, 1973, in Vitez, was a member of
19 the HVO, Vitez Brigade, since the 8th of April, 1992;
20 that he was wounded on the 16th of April, 1993, in
21 Ahmici, at that time, when he was carrying out combat
22 orders issued by the relevant authority. It also says
23 that Zoran Ante Covic was an eyewitness to that
24 incident, or the wounding.
25 Q. Do you understand this?
1 A. No, I did not understand it. Could you
2 repeat it, please?
3 Q. Witness, I have before me a document, and of
4 course I shall submit it to the Court, but I have an
5 official document according to which Ivica Semren was
6 wounded on the 6th of April, 1993, in Ahmici. At that
7 time, there was fighting amongst the ranks of the HVO
8 Vitez Brigade, and it says that your brother
9 eyewitnessed this wounding, Zoran Covic eyewitnessed
10 this wounding.
11 A. As far as I know, and I already said it,
12 Ivica was not a soldier. And I don't know what he was
13 wearing, but that was not a camouflage uniform, I'm
14 certain. Zoran Covic, was he there or was he not, I
15 really don't know. I don't know about his movements.
16 Q. So is it the camouflage uniform which would
17 tell us if one is a soldier or not?
18 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, will the
19 Prosecutor, if he's referring to a document which we
20 did not have because it has not been handed over to us,
21 also show us this document so that we could see it? I
22 believe there was an agreement that documents would be
23 shown in advance. Now we are not being shown it even
24 at the time when this document is being quoted. So
25 will you please do something about that?
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. We know that, but
2 Mr. Terrier has already told us twice that this
3 document was not handed over to Defence because they
4 did not think that this question would be raised today,
5 so that you are quite right indeed.
6 MR. TERRIER: But may I also add,
7 Mr. President, that sometimes it is very difficult to
8 prepare cross-examination when we only get a summary
9 such as the one which was handed over, and it says very
10 clearly that this witness was an HVO soldier that
11 April, it says here, defending on the battalion
12 commanded by Anto Bertovic. Now this witness tells us
13 quite the opposite. Sometimes it is really difficult
14 to prepare an accurate and very specific and proper
16 I'm really very sorry, but we had no
17 opportunity to communicate to the Court and to the
18 Defence this document, but if we may, we shall place it
19 on the ELMO, and today naturally we should take care
20 that it is distributed to all the parties concerned.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: I believe that if Mr. Susak
22 asks for it, he can also suggest the re-examination of
23 this witness, that it can be deferred until tomorrow so
24 that they can read this document very carefully, if
25 need be.
1 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I should like
2 indeed to have this right and perhaps tomorrow come
3 back and re-examine the witness as to this particular
4 incident, and I believe it will be very brief.
5 Will the Chamber please allow me to meet with
6 the witness and talk to him about this document?
7 (Trial Chamber confers)
8 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. All right, you
9 may talk to the witness about this document this
11 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be 369.
12 MR. TERRIER: If my learned friends from the
13 Defence want also to have the version in the B/C/S to
14 be placed on the ELMO, we can do that.
15 JUDGE CASESSE: But are you going to ask
16 other questions about this document?
17 MR. TERRIER: All I want is to get a reaction
18 from the witness. That is all that I'm asking for.
19 I'm not going into this document.
20 Q. Witness Covic, doesn't this document say that
21 Ivica Semren was an HVO soldier, a member of the Vitez
22 Brigade, and that he was in action under the orders of
23 his superiors on the 16th of April, and it was as he
24 was engaged in combat that he was wounded; is that not
25 what this document says?
1 A. I said already that a camouflage uniform --
2 that when a soldier -- that he must wear army clothes
3 or, rather, camouflage clothes. As far as I know,
4 Ivica Semren was not wearing a camouflage uniform.
5 Q. So does that mean it is the uniform which
6 makes a soldier a military?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. But you had a uniform too?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So you were a military if you --
11 A. No, no, I was not. No, no, I was not a
12 military. I did not have any insignia, and I said that
13 I had bought those clothes.
14 Q. But how can we explain, then, that your
15 uncle, who testified before you, Josip Vidovic, said,
16 when asked during the cross-examination, I believe the
17 26th line of the transcript, that you were wearing
18 civilian clothes? How could he make such a mistake?
19 A. I don't understand what you mean about the
20 civilian force.
21 Q. I shall move on to another question.
22 Could you please tell us what happened to you
23 after the 16th of April? What did you do after the
24 16th of April, 1993?
25 A. On the 16th of April, 1993, Slavko Papic came
1 to my home and asked me to go to the Pirici area, up
2 there, and I resisted it because I had trouble with my
3 back. But at that time, it simply did not help, so I
4 went to the Pirici area. And there, in the afternoon,
5 I was wounded, so I was up there. Because I had severe
6 pain because I had been on the move all day, I started
7 home. It was then that I was wounded by a shell. I
8 wish I had stayed up there at the centre.
9 Q. You said that you were wounded that 16th of
10 April, '93, that 16th of April; is that it?
11 A. No, not on the 16th of April. On the 17th of
12 April, in the afternoon hours.
13 Q. What were you doing at the time when you were
15 A. Because the wound was not so bad, I got down
16 to the village and there were already some vehicles
17 there, and they took me to Busovaca, that is, to the
18 outpatient clinic in Busovaca. The next morning, then
19 they took me home, so that the rest of the time I was
20 at home and I received treatment there.
21 Q. Yes, but my question is what were you doing
22 at the time of your wounding?
23 A. I don't understand.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: May I remind the witness that
25 he has solemnly declared that he would tell the truth,
1 and not telling the truth entails very grave
3 The question was very simple. Would you
4 please ask the same question once again?
5 MR. TERRIER:
6 Q. Witness, you told us you were wounded on the
7 17th of April, 1993. All I'm asking you is to tell us
8 something about the circumstances of your wounding and
9 what were you in the process of doing at that moment?
10 Is that question clear? Do you understand that?
11 A. So I was in the area of Pirici. Up there,
12 there were two or three men more up there with me.
13 However, when I returned -- so, no, after I started
14 back home because I could not stand the pain anymore,
15 so I was on my way home, and it was as I started for
16 home that I was wounded by that shell.
17 Q. Witness, I shall ask you once again, what
18 were you in the process of doing at that moment? Were
19 you carrying out the combat orders at that time?
20 A. As far as I understand it, on the 17th of
21 April, when I was issued weapons and I was up there
22 fortifying the line, that is, on the 17th of April, I
23 was therefore a soldier.
24 Q. So on the 16th of April, you were a uniformed
25 civilian in Ahmici, but on the 17th of April, you were
1 an armed combatant on the front; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Could you explain, how is it that you changed
4 the status from one to the other?
5 A. Well, I already said it. Slavko Papic came
6 to fetch me. He came sometime in the morning, I don't
7 remember, and told me I was to go up to Pirici. I
8 tried not to, I resisted. I told him that I had this
9 back pain and that I couldn't. But it did not help
10 much at the time, so that I had to go to the area of
12 Q. Who is Slavko Papic? Who was Slavko Papic at
13 the time? What was Slavko Papic at the time?
14 A. At that time, Slavko Papic, to me he was kind
15 of a commander.
16 Q. But what were his duties? The commander of
18 A. Well, that I don't know, I don't know. I
19 mean if he came to my place, then it meant -- well,
20 then it should mean that -- I mean at the time there
21 were -- as far as I know, there were some village
22 guards at the time, so that should mean that he perhaps
23 was the one who deployed the elderly to be on guard.
24 Q. Couldn't you be more accurate? Couldn't you
25 be more specific and offer us a more understandable
1 explanation? You were not an elderly person, you were
2 not one of the guards, so what happened?
3 A. No, no, I don't really know what were
4 Slavko's duties, whether he had any responsibilities,
5 and I didn't understand what you meant when you
6 referred to me. What did you have in mind?
7 Q. I shall ask another question.
8 So you don't know what were the duties and
9 responsibilities of Slavko Papic, but you nevertheless
10 knew that you had to obey him; is that so?
11 A. Well, yes, naturally, because the day
12 before -- yeah, well, I believed I was duty bound. I
13 believed I was duty bound to go up there if I could
14 help, but I couldn't help. I say I wish I had stayed
15 at the centre and been on duty that evening rather than
16 to go out there and then be wounded.
17 Q. What happened on the eve of that? It was on
18 the eve of that that you were assigned to that task, on
19 the 16th of April?
20 A. No, no, no, it wasn't on the 16th. I said I
21 was given it on the 17th, when Slavko Papic came to my
22 place and asked me to go to the area of Pirici.
23 Q. When is it that you were issued a weapon?
24 A. When I got to Pirici, up to Pirici.
25 Q. Who gave you the weapon?
1 A. I was given the weapon by an elderly man. It
2 was an M-48 rifle, M-48.
3 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I have no
4 further questions for this witness. Thank you.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. As we have
6 decided, the re-examination shall be deferred until
7 tomorrow morning. Is that so, Mr. Susak?
8 MR. SUSAK: Yes, Mr. President, although I
9 could continue with -- I think there is no need to
10 delay it until tomorrow, regardless of this document.
11 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I simply forgot
12 to tender this document 369 into evidence. Thank you,
13 Mr. President.
14 (Trial Chamber confers)
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Susak, very well. If you
16 are ready to re-examine the witness now, then please do
18 MR. SUSAK: Although I have not talked about
19 this to the witness, I know what the state of the facts
21 Re-examined by Mr. Susak:
22 Q. Mr. Covic, you said that Ivica Semren was
23 wearing what? Was he wearing a military uniform or
24 civilian clothes?
25 A. He was wearing civilian clothes.
1 Q. So he was wearing civilian clothes. What
2 kind of uniform was Drazenko Vidovic wearing?
3 A. He was wearing civilian clothes.
4 Q. So he was also wearing civilian clothes. Was
5 Slavko Rajkovic wearing civilian clothes or a uniform?
6 A. Slavko Rajkovic had a black uniform on.
7 Q. You were talking about the 16th of April,
8 1993. When was there gunfire in Santici, in the
9 morning or in the afternoon?
10 A. I don't understand your question.
11 Q. When was there gunfire on the 16th of April,
13 A. Well, it started in the morning at half past
15 Q. When did it stop, according to you, since you
16 were outside that day?
17 A. Well, it went on the whole day.
18 Q. When did the intense gunfire stop?
19 A. Well, sometime around -- well, it was in the
21 Q. So according to you, if you say "in the
22 morning", I assume it was before noon that the shooting
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So can you tell me, considering the fact that
1 you said that Slavko Rajkovic was killed and that Ivica
2 Semren, who was a civilian, and Drazenko Vidovic, who
3 was also a civilian, were wounded, were they taking
4 part in some kind of operation or were they attacked
5 from an ambush while there was no shooting?
6 A. As far as I know, they were attacked from an
8 Q. So they were not taking part in military
10 A. No.
11 Q. What were they doing? Were they walking,
12 or ... ?
13 A. Yes, they were going on foot.
14 Q. Ivica Semrin and Drazenko Vidovic, were they
15 being treated for any wounds if they were wounded that
17 A. Yes, I know that they received medical
18 treatment after they were wounded.
19 Q. Did you see the corpse of Slavko Rajkovic?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Where did you see it?
22 A. Well, on the 16th of April, just before dusk,
23 because that was when my neighbours brought him from
24 there, because they had learned that he had been
1 Q. Where did he come from, do you know? Where
2 was he born?
3 A. I don't remember.
4 Q. Very well. You said that you had bought a
5 camouflage uniform?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What would have happened if you hadn't bought
8 it? How would you have gone to your job at the centre
9 for alerting people?
10 A. I would have gone in civilian clothes, just
11 as the other people there did.
12 Q. So were you obliged to wear a military
13 uniform when you were going to your job?
14 A. No, I wasn't.
15 Q. Very well. So if you did not have a uniform,
16 did you have any patch on your camouflage uniform when
17 you went to work?
18 A. No, I personally did not have a patch, but
19 the others who worked there before me, who had worked
20 there for years, had a patch saying that they worked in
21 the centre.
22 Q. You said that Slavko Papic told you on the
23 17th of April to go to Pirici, to the defence line?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you consider yourself to have been
1 mobilised on that day?
2 A. On that day? On that day, Slavko sent me to
3 the line of defence, and I took my weapon, so I
4 consider that I was a soldier then.
5 Q. From then, from the 17th of April, 1993; so
6 you consider that you were mobilised on the 17th of
7 April, 1993?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Since you worked in the monitoring,
10 reporting, informing, and alerting centre, you were
11 active there?
12 A. Yes, I went there every day, except --
13 Q. So before the 17th of April, were you ever
14 sent to perform duties toward Vlasic or on Kuber?
15 A. No, I wasn't.
16 Q. Were you able-bodied?
17 A. No, I wasn't in good health physically, which
18 is why I worked in the monitoring, reporting,
19 informing, and alerting centre.
20 Q. So to sum up, you consider that Slavko
21 Rajkovic, Drazenko Vidovic, and Ivica Semrin were
22 attacked from an ambush?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I will ask you, were they on their way to
25 perform a military operation, or were they simply
2 A. They were simply walking. They were not
3 performing an operation.
4 Q. Do you know from where someone shot them?
5 A. The gunfire came from -- there is a house,
6 and that's where the shots came from.
7 Q. The Prosecutor suggested that Ivica Semrin
8 was a member of the HVO. Was he a member of the HVO or
9 a civilian on that day?
10 A. I don't know, but he wasn't wearing a
11 camouflage uniform, he was not carrying a rifle, so I
12 think he was not.
13 Q. So you consider him to have been a civilian?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Do you know whether anyone except you, on the
16 16th of April, 1993, and -- you, Josip Covic, and the
17 other person, went to Ramiz Ahmic's house?
18 A. I didn't understand your question.
19 Q. Do you know whether someone else went to
20 Ramiz Ahmic's house, except for you, on the 16th of
21 April, 1993? Did anyone else besides you go to that
23 A. You mean besides me, Josip, and Slavko?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. I don't know.
1 Q. I'm asking you because other witnesses said
2 that someone else went to that house during the day but
3 before you arrived.
4 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I have no further
5 questions. Thank you.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
7 We don't have any questions for you,
8 Mr. Covic. You may be released.
9 (The witness withdrew)
10 (The witness entered court)
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Mrs. Bralo.
12 Would you please make the solemn declaration?
13 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honours.
14 I solemnly declare that I will speak the
15 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
18 Counsel Susak?
19 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 WITNESS: FINKA BRALO
21 Examined by Mr. Susak:
22 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Bralo. Would you please
23 introduce yourself to the Court with your full name and
24 date of birth?
25 A. My name is Finka Bralo. I was born in 1958.
1 I live in Santici with my husband and my two sons.
2 Q. What is your husband's name?
3 A. My husband's name is Anto Bralo.
4 Q. Would you please tell us where your house is
6 A. My house is in Santici.
7 Q. Is it close to Anto Papic's house?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Before I show you the aerial photograph, I
10 will put a few short questions to you. Would you tell
11 us where you were on the 15th of April, 1993?
12 A. On the 15th of April, 1993, I was at work.
13 Q. And where were you employed?
14 A. In UNPROFOR.
15 Q. So you worked in UNPROFOR?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When you were working at UNPROFOR, did you
18 have a uniform?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What did the uniform consist of?
21 A. The uniform consisted of trousers, olive
22 green, with two big pockets at the sides, and normal
23 pockets as well, and the top was like -- it was a
25 Q. Was it camouflage?
1 A. It was.
2 Q. On the 15th of April, 1993, were you at
3 UNPROFOR working?
4 A. Yes, I was. All day.
5 Q. Can you tell us, your husband, Anto Bralo,
6 where was he employed?
7 A. My husband, Anto Bralo, was also employed in
8 UNPROFOR. We worked together.
9 Q. What did he do there?
10 A. He worked with fuel, a stoker. He worked at
11 night sometimes, depending on the shifts.
12 Q. Very well. Could you tell us whether he also
13 had a uniform similar to yours?
14 A. It was the same uniform. The same.
15 Q. I will repeat my question: Did he have a
16 uniform issued by UNPROFOR?
17 A. Yes, issued by UNPROFOR.
18 Q. You said that you and Anto Bralo were at work
19 on the 15th of April, 1993?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Would you please tell us when you went to bed
22 on the 15th of April, 1993?
23 A. On the 15th of April, 1993, we went as usual
24 at half past 10.00 or 11.00 p.m. We had to get up
25 early in the morning. We had to go to work, and I had
1 to get up early to feed our livestock before going to
2 work and leave everything in the house in order.
3 Q. So we shall now discuss the 16th of April,
4 1993. When did you wake up in the morning?
5 A. In the morning we were awakened by gunfire,
6 so we got up.
7 Q. What time was it?
8 A. The gunfire started at around half past 5.00,
10 Q. Yes. So how did you experience this?
11 A. Well, it was very stressful. There was
12 gunfire. We didn't know what to do. We had to go to
13 work. Our children were in the house.
14 Q. So had you known that conflict would break
15 out, would you have stayed in your house with your
17 A. Of course not.
18 Q. So you would have left?
19 A. Of course.
20 Q. And then you say you got up; you were
21 awakened by gunfire at about 5.30?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What did you see then?
24 A. I went out onto the balcony. I have an open
25 terrace. And Kata Kovac, my neighbour, was running
1 across the meadow with her husband and her son in the
2 direction of my house. They arrived at my door.
3 Q. Very well. What happened then?
4 A. Kata came in with her son, and my husband
5 went outside and invited our neighbour in. They stayed
6 outside on the terrace, talking.
7 Q. Would you say what the name was?
8 A. Anto Bralo.
9 Q. And what about the neighbour who came?
10 A. Frano Kovac.
11 Q. What happened then?
12 A. They lingered a little at the door, talking,
13 and I brought my neighbour inside to take care of her
14 child, and when I looked out again, they had left the
16 Q. Who?
17 A. My husband and Frano Kovac.
18 Q. Anto Bralo and Frano Kovac?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. And where did they go?
21 A. They set out down the road, and Drago
22 Josipovic was standing on the road, and Anto Papic, and
23 they probably went toward them. But then Drago
24 Josipovic and Anto Papic set out toward the house of
25 Nikola Omazic.
1 Q. In the opposite direction?
2 A. Yes, in the opposite direction.
3 Q. And where did Anto Bralo and Frano Kovac go?
4 A. They went toward Anto Papic's stable, down
5 the road.
6 Q. And Drago and Anto Papic, they just went on?
7 A. Yes, they just went on down the road.
8 Q. As you said?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And did Anto Papic and Drago Josipovic take
11 the road in the direction of Nikola Omazic's house and
12 further on?
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. Did you see what happened? Did they
15 encounter anyone?
16 A. Yes, (redacted),
17 (redacted), with her two children, were going towards them.
18 Q. Was there anybody else there?
19 A. Drago Josipovic and Anto Papic met them.
20 They stopped on the road and talked a little, and then
21 they all started going back in the direction of the
22 house of Anto Papic.
23 Q. So did they go on down the road, or did they
24 come back?
25 A. No, they turned back with them.
1 Q. Was Hasim Ahmic there, as well, among the
3 A. I heard that he was, but I didn't see him.
4 Q. And where did they go then?
5 A. They went to the house of Anto Papic.
6 Q. Where were you then, as they were passing
7 down the road?
8 A. I was standing on my terrace. I was
9 surprised. I went in and out, but I kept looking
10 through the window. There's a good view from my house,
11 and you can see everything.
12 Q. What time was it, approximately, when the
13 family of (redacted) came to Anto Papic's house?
14 A. Well, it could have been 20 minutes to 6.00
15 or a quarter to 6.00. Not later.
16 Q. Do you know whether any other Muslims were in
17 Anto Papic's house on the 16th of April, 1993?
18 A. Yes, all our nearest neighbours, all those
19 who lived in our street, they were there.
20 Q. Did they feel safe in Anto Papic's house?
21 A. Well, most probably, because if they hadn't
22 felt safe, they wouldn't have gone there.
23 Q. During the day, did you go to Anto Papic's
25 A. No. I did not.
1 Q. Could you tell us why you didn't go?
2 A. Well, the reason was that we did not have
3 much contact. My family did not contact a lot with his
5 Q. So these were small matters?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You weren't there, but did you hear what
8 other -- which other Muslims were in that house on that
10 A. I heard that Cazim Ramic, Zilka Ramic, Biba
11 Ramic and her two children, Mirsad Osmancevic, Saiba
12 Osmancevic and her three children. Then there was
13 (redacted) with her two children, her mother, as I
14 heard, but I didn't go there, so I didn't see them, but
15 I heard that they were there. There was (redacted)
16 (redacted), and her two children.
17 Q. You already mentioned them; very well. Did
18 any of the Muslims come to your house from Anto Papic's
19 house on that day?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Who?
22 A. (redacted).
23 Q. Anyone else?
24 A. Yes, her husband, Asim.
25 Q. And how long did they stay? Did they sit
2 A. Hasim stayed with my husband in front of the
3 door, in the courtyard, and his wife came and wept.
4 Q. His wife went in and wept?
5 A. Yes. She didn't want to sit down on the
6 couch. She sat down next to her -- she wept. I wept
7 with her, and she said, "Dear Finka, they've killed my
8 Fahran." So what else could we do but weep?
9 So she sat on the floor. I gave her a glass
10 of juice. She drank it, and then she sat for a while,
11 and then she left.
12 Q. Were the Muslims able to go in and out of
13 Anto Papic's house as they wished?
14 A. Of course. Nobody stopped them.
15 Q. Did you see them going out?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did they walk up and down the road?
18 A. Yes, they did.
19 Q. You mentioned Mirsad Osmancevic; would you
20 tell us who he is?
21 A. Who Mirsad is?
22 Q. Yes. Who is he?
23 A. Mirsad was my neighbour. Mirsad was a member
24 of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. He often went
25 somewhere. I don't know where, he didn't tell us, but
1 we later heard that he was a member of the army of
2 Bosnia and Herzegovina. He would stay away from home
3 for some 15 days.
4 Q. So did you all know that he was a member of
5 the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
6 A. Yes, we all knew.
7 Q. And that he went somewhere?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. Do you know where he went?
10 A. Well, I think -- no, I'm sure that it was
11 Preocica. The place was called Preocica where he went.
12 Q. Was that a training centre for the Muslims?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Very well. Do you know whether on that same
15 day Mirsad Osmancevic was in Rovna?
16 A. Mirsad was in Rovna.
17 Q. And his family?
18 A. Yes, and his children.
19 Q. How old was his youngest child? Was it older
20 or younger than a year old?
21 A. Well, it was about a year old.
22 Q. I will now ask you about the layout of Anto
23 Papic's house and the living conditions there.
24 A. The layout in Anto Papic's house?
25 Q. Well, if you didn't go there -- when was the
1 last time you went there, or did you hear people
2 describe it, or what did it look like from the outside?
3 A. Well, I had been to his house before, because
4 we contacted before we stopped. And the layout, to
5 tell you, is very bad. It's poor. There is one room
6 which is both a living room, a bedroom, and a kitchen,
7 and there's a narrow hall.
8 Q. Do you know whether there were some Croats in
9 his house, besides Muslims?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. If you do, can you tell us which of the
12 Croats were there?
13 A. Ljubica Papic, Ruza Papic, Andjelina Papic,
14 Marko Papic, and Anto Papic himself.
15 Q. And Anto Papic's wife, was her health all
17 A. No.
18 Q. And his sister is a young person, or old?
19 A. She is an old woman.
20 Q. Is Anto Papic's wife alive today?
21 A. No.
22 Q. And when did she die?
23 A. I don't know. I think it was after the war.
24 After the war.
25 Q. After the war, you are saying; could
1 Mirsad Osmancevic, with his small child and other
2 children, could he live in the conditions such as
3 prevailed in Anto Papic's house?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Is that the reason why he went in the
6 direction of Rovna?
7 A. I think so. I believe so, yes.
8 Q. Do you know, who did he go in Rovna to?
9 A. I do. He went to Jozo Cerkez's.
10 Q. And Jozo Cerkez is a Croat, is he?
11 A. Yes, he is a Croat.
12 Q. How long did they stay there, if you know
13 that, if you heard it from someone?
14 A. I did not hear from anyone how long they
15 stayed there.
16 Q. And did you hear that they had come back?
17 A. Yes, I did hear that they came back, because
18 Mirsad Osmanac --
19 Q. Osmanac, or Osmancevic?
20 A. No, he is Osmancevic, but we called him
21 Osmanac for short. He asked my husband to go and bring
22 him over from Rovna. My husband wasn't home. He had
23 gone, because Marija Papic had asked him to go to her
24 stable with Frano Kovac and feed the livestock, because
25 she had two cows, and so one had to feed those cows and
1 milk those cows. So she wasn't at home when Mirsad
3 In the meantime, when my husband came, I told
4 him that he had been looking for him, and he went to
5 Anto Papic's house. Mirsad had already come back from
7 Q. Did Mirsad come to Anto Papic's house, come
8 back to Anto Papic's house, with his whole family?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And when he came back, did somebody threaten
11 him? Were you also afraid?
12 A. Well, naturally, of course I was.
13 Q. Were you afraid?
14 A. Yes, I was.
15 Q. I have only two more questions. In the
16 morning, when you saw Drago Josipovic and Anto Papic,
17 did you see what Drago Josipovic was wearing?
18 A. I did. Drago was wearing civilian clothes,
19 and he had an army vest.
20 Q. Was it a flak jacket?
21 A. It was a camouflage vest.
22 Q. And Anto Papic?
23 A. Anto Papic wore military clothes.
24 Q. Now let us move on to the 17th of
25 April, '93. Did you see Drago Josipovic that day?
1 A. Yes. Drago Josipovic, he came to my place,
2 where we had coffee around 9.00 in the morning together
3 with Frano Kovac and Katica Kovac. They were at my
4 place, having coffee.
5 Q. How long did he stay there?
6 A. Well, he could have been an hour and a half,
8 Q. Where did he go then?
9 A. Drago told us he was going home to feed the
10 livestock. He was going home.
11 Q. Whose home?
12 A. His own home.
13 Q. Did he go there?
14 A. Yes, he did.
15 Q. In the direction of his home?
16 A. In the direction of his home.
17 Q. That day, did you see the Muslims when they
18 left Anto Papic's house and started for the road; did
19 you see them?
20 A. I did not.
21 Q. But did you hear that they had left?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. Which one of the Croats went with them?
24 A. Anto Papic went with them.
25 Q. Did somebody else go with them except Anto
1 Papic; did you hear anything?
2 A. No, no. Nobody else, no.
3 Q. On the 17th of April, when they started in
4 the direction of the road, did you see Anto Papic after
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. When?
8 A. Well, shortly afterwards. Shortly
9 afterwards, Anto Papic came and we could see them all
10 day long, and he came also into my yard and asked me
11 and my neighbour, Kata Kovac, he asked us if we could
12 give something for [indiscernible] child, for the baby,
13 because the baby was an infant and needed milk and some
14 sugar and some clothes, and we tried to put something
15 together and put it in a bag, and gave it to Anto Papic
16 to take it with him. But he told us that he did not
17 find them there.
18 Q. It was subsequently, later on, that he told
19 you that?
20 A. Yes, later on he told us that.
21 Q. Do you know if the Muslims were locked up in
22 Anto Papic's house?
23 A. Oh, no, no, they were not.
24 Q. Did they go to that house of their own free
1 A. Yes, they went there of their own free will.
2 Q. You said that Mirsad Osmancevic and his
3 family went to Rovna. Did he leave of his own free
4 will or not?
5 A. Yes, he left of his own will, because Jozo
6 Cerkez had a daughter, and Mirsad's child and -- I mean
7 they were very, very close and they played together,
8 and they were also --
9 Q. He was their godfather, wasn't he?
10 A. Yes, he was their godfather.
11 Q. Do you know if Drago Josipovic helped
12 Mirsad Osmancevic to get to Rovna because of his
14 A. Yes, I do know Drago Josipovic was the one
15 who took him to Rovna.
16 Q. Did you hear that or --
17 A. Yes, I heard that Drago had taken him to
18 Rovna and even given him his vest so as to be safe.
19 Q. But wasn't that a major risk for Drago
20 Josipovic? Wasn't Drago Josipovic risking very much
21 when he gave his vest to Mirsad Osmancevic, who was a
22 member of the BH army?
23 A. Of course it was a big risk, because
24 everybody knew that Mirsad Osmancevic was a member of
25 the army of B and H.
1 Q. When Mirsad Osmancevic returned to Anto
2 Papic's house, were Drago Josipovic and Anto Papic,
3 your husband, Anto Bralo, and Frano Kovac, were they
4 afraid when they saw him come back?
5 A. Of course they were, of course they were
7 Q. When Mirsad Osmancevic went to Rovna, did any
8 other Muslim go to Rovna, if he wants to, without any
10 A. Why not? They all could go wherever they
11 wanted, but presumably they wanted to stay together.
12 Q. Were they safe, since they knew Drago
13 Josipovic and Anto Papic?
14 A. Yes, they were safe. Had they not felt safe,
15 they wouldn't have come there.
16 Q. Now tell us, how is it that they could be
17 under such poor conditions, yet spend the whole day and
18 the night at Anto Papic's house? What were those
19 conditions? Were they hard or not?
20 A. Oh, yes, they were hard. Oh, of course, it
21 must have been very hard.
22 Q. You think the conditions were very, very
24 A. Yes, I think they were very, very hard.
25 Q. Let us not mention anything else. But was
1 there a bathroom in Anto Papic's house?
2 A. No, there was not a bathroom, and the
3 conditions were nothing to write home about. I mean
4 those people shouldn't have been there.
5 Q. But Anto Papic and Drago Josipovic, did they
6 want to save the Muslims they had helped to reach Anto
7 Papic's house, to get to Anto Papic's house?
8 A. Yes, of course. Yes, of course, because they
9 were there amongst us, and nobody was hurt and they
10 were safe.
11 Q. You said that you knew Frano and Katica
12 Kovac. Who is Frano Kovac?
13 A. Frano Kovac?
14 Q. Where did he work?
15 A. He worked in Novi Travnik. He was a
16 salesperson there.
17 Q. But did he live in Novi Travnik or in
19 A. Well, he spent more time in Novi Travnik,
20 living there, because of his work.
21 Q. Do you know if Drago Josipovic's mother came
22 to Katica Kovac's house or, rather, the house in which
23 she lived?
24 A. Yes, I know that.
25 Q. Whose house did they live in?
1 A. Katica Kovac lived in her father's house.
2 It's a rather old house.
3 Q. Were they building their own house?
4 A. Yes, they were building their own house.
5 Q. I know they were building it, but had they
6 built it?
7 A. No. They built it only after the war. It
8 was after the war that they finished it.
9 Q. We said that the Muslims were in Anto Papic's
10 house, but could those Muslims come to your house, had
11 they wanted to?
12 A. Why not?
13 Q. Did anyone stop them?
14 A. No, nobody stopped them.
15 Q. But a short while ago you mentioned some of
16 them. Did they come to visit you of their own will?
17 A. Of their own will.
18 Q. So they came of their own will?
19 A. Of their own will.
20 Q. And do you know if the Muslims --
21 JUDGE CASESSE: I'm going to ask you not to
22 repeat the same questions. I mean you're asking
23 questions you have already asked I mean at least
24 twice. Could you be so kind as to move on to other
25 matters? Thank you.
1 MR. SUSAK: Yes. I am about to finish,
2 Mr. President.
3 Q. So I shall repeat this question. Do you know
4 if Muslims came to Nikola Omazic's house? [realtime
5 transcript read in error "Niko Ahmic's house"]
6 A. They did.
7 Q. Who?
8 A. (redacted) came. She came to call her son,
9 who was living in Vitez.
10 Q. You mean she used the telephone?
11 A. Yes, she used the telephone.
12 Q. To conclude, which Croats were in your house
13 on the 16th of April, '93?
14 A. The Croats in my house were Marija Papic and
15 Ivica Papic, Zeljko Papic, Ljubica Filipovic and Maja
16 Filipovic, Finka Vidovic, Simo Vidovic, Jozo Santic. I
17 think that's about it.
18 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I shall merely
19 like to show an aerial photograph to the witness, and
20 then I would end my examination with this. So will the
21 usher please help me?
22 THE REGISTRAR: This is Exhibit 34/4.
23 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I am warned that
24 it is wrongly recorded. She was to answer the question
25 whether Muslims were in Nikola Omazic's house on the
1 16th of April, not Niko Ahmic's house. Nikola Omazic's
3 Q. Mrs. Bralo, could you manage? Can you find
4 your way around this photograph? If not, you can turn
5 it around. You can turn it around, if it will make it
6 easier for you.
7 Can you find Ogrjev?
8 A. Yes, I am finding my way about it. Yes,
9 thank you.
10 Q. Could you show us where Nikola Omazic's house
11 is? Will you put a circle?
12 A. Just a moment. Nikola Omazic's, it's this
13 house here (indicating).
14 Q. Will you put number "2" to it?
15 A. (Witness marks)
16 Q. Now put a circle around Anto Papic's house,
17 Anto Papic, and put number "1".
18 A. (Witness marks)
19 Q. Now put a circle around Anto Bralo's house,
20 if you know where that is, Anto Bralo. Put a "3" next
21 to it.
22 A. (Witness marks)
23 Q. I shall ask you a question. On the 16th --
24 can you hear me?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. On the 16th, did you see Drago Josipovic on
2 several occasions that day?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Where did they move about, he and Bralo and
5 Kovac and Anto Papic; where did --
6 A. Well, they used that lane between Anto Bralo,
7 Nikola Omazic and Anto Papic's houses.
8 Q. So they were roughly in that place?
9 A. Yes, in that crossroad.
10 Q. How many times did you see them that day;
11 could you tell us?
12 A. Well, I saw them several times, a number of
13 times throughout the day.
14 Q. Right. Thank you. So the group of houses
15 which are a cluster of Muslim houses towards the road,
16 will you please put circles around them and tell us who
17 they belong to?
18 A. This is Zenur Ramic (indicating).
19 Q. Circle it and put the letter "A".
20 A. (Witness marks) Then Cazim Ramic.
21 Q. Put a "B" and a circle.
22 A. (Witness marks) Then Naim Ahmic.
23 Q. Naim or Nail?
24 A. Naim.
25 Q. Naim Ahmic. Put a "C".
1 A. (Witness marks) Mirsad Osmancevic.
2 Q. Now "D". That is, circle and "D".
3 A. (Witness marks) And Frano Kovac.
4 Q. Yes. Just draw a circle and put a "Y".
5 A. (Witness marks)
6 Q. Now, the question. Will you tell us, from
7 these houses, their residents came to Anto Papic's
8 house of their own will, or were brought there on the
9 16th of April, 1993, did anyone get killed or wounded
10 among those residents?
11 A. No, no one.
12 Q. Was any of those Muslim houses set on fire?
13 I mean Muslim houses. Were they damaged or anything?
14 A. Yes, one house.
15 Q. But when?
16 A. On the 17th.
17 Q. But give us the full answer. 17th of what?
18 A. 17th of March.
19 Q. March? There was no war in March. Do you
20 mean April?
21 A. April.
22 Q. So will you please repeat it?
23 A. 17th of April, '93.
24 Q. So only one house was set on fire, and whose
25 house was it?
1 A. It was Cazim Ramic's house.
2 Q. And Cazim and Razim Ahmic's house, does it
3 have windows? Could he look out of that window towards
4 Nikola Omazic's house?
5 A. Yes, in all directions.
6 Q. That morning, did he look also out of the
7 window of Naim Ahmic's in which he took shelter then?
8 Could he see Drago Josipovic and Anto Papic on their
9 way to Omazic's house?
10 A. Yes, he could.
11 Q. Now will you also draw a circle around Fahran
12 Ahmic's house or Hasim Ahmic's? No, Hasim Ahmic's
13 house is what you should draw a circle around, and put
14 Roman I.
15 A. Fahran?
16 Q. Yes. Draw a circle and put Roman I.
17 A. (Witness marks)
18 Q. Now draw a circle around (redacted)'s
19 house and put a Roman II.
20 A. (Witness marks)
21 Q. That's it. On the same photograph, will you
22 draw circles around Rasim or, rather, Razim Ahmic's,
23 Nazif's and Asim's?
24 A. (Witness marks)
25 Q. You could also put there "A", "B", "C" next
1 to those houses; that is, Razim with "A", Nazif's with
2 "B", and Asim's with a C"?
3 A. (Witness marks)
4 Q. What about the visibility looking from
5 (redacted)? Does she have good visibility?
6 Does she have a good view of the road?
7 A. Yes, the visibility is good.
8 Q. From (redacted) in the direction
9 of Fahrudin Ahmic's house, can you see?
10 A. Yes, you can, because it's all clear.
11 Q. Is it all clear? Are those fields or woods?
12 A. These are fields which are sown.
13 Q. Since we're talking about the 16th of April,
14 '93, was there any vegetation up there, were there
15 leaves in the wood or not?
16 A. No.
17 Q. So you mean it was all exposed. What does
18 one grow in those fields?
19 A. Well, this is vegetables, mostly some maize,
20 some wheat.
21 Q. What month? What is the sowing time?
22 A. Well, end of April, early May.
23 Q. On this aerial photograph, will you please
24 draw an arrow to show the direction from Fahran Ahmic's
25 house to Anto Papic's house? To Anto Papic's house.
1 You can draw a line.
2 A. (Witness marks)
3 Q. Yes, to the end. That's it. Now an arrow
4 from (redacted) to Razim Ahmic's house.
5 Also an arrow. Will you please do that?
6 A. Repeat it, please.
7 Q. Find (redacted)'s house.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now draw an arrow towards Razim/Asim's
11 A. (Witness marks)
12 Q. That's it. How far is that house away from
13 (redacted)? What is the distance between
15 A. Well, it could be about 40 metres.
16 Q. From Fahran Ahmic's house to the road?
17 A. About 20 metres.
18 Q. To conclude, do you know how many Muslims
19 were killed on the 16th of April, '93, in this
20 direction from Anto Papic's house towards the road?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How many?
23 A. Two.
24 Q. Who were they?
25 A. Fahran Ahmic and Puscul.
1 Q. What's his name?
2 MR. TERRIER: Excuse me. We're really trying
3 not to interfere too much and not to raise any
4 objections, but the last question which is asked is
5 completely incomprehensible. What does it mean? "Do
6 you know the number of Muslims killed in the direction
7 of Anto Papic's house?" I simply don't understand
8 this. Could Mr. Susak rephrase his question?
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Susak, could you please
10 be so kind as to rephrase your question?
11 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, let me answer
12 straightaway to my learned friend in the Prosecution.
13 These houses are important because one needs to see
14 where Drago Josipovic and Anto Papic -- that is, that
15 no Muslim was killed in their vicinity or, rather, that
16 they were safe, and also that no Muslim homes which
17 they protected was set on fire on the 16th of April,
19 This is an important question to show that it
20 was the Muslim houses by the road which were damaged,
21 and this is one of the questions which the Prosecution
22 seems to avoid, because the military police was
23 protecting the Busovaca-Vitez road.
24 Q. So, Mrs. Bralo, will you please -- and this
25 is my last question. How far is Fahrudin Ahmic's house
1 away from the road, what is the distance?
2 A. Twenty metres. That is how I see it.
3 MR. SUSAK: Thank you very much,
4 Mr. President. I have no further questions.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Let me just ask Counsel
6 Pavkovic if there is any Defence counsel willing to ask
8 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Honours, we have no
9 questions to this witness.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: So I suggest that we now take
11 a 15-minute break, and then the Prosecution will
12 cross-examine the witness.
13 --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 12.35 p.m.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Terrier?
16 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Cross-examined by Mr. Terrier:
18 Q. Good afternoon. My name is Franck Terrier.
19 I'm one of the representatives of the Prosecution in
20 these proceedings, and I have a few questions for you.
21 I don't think I will take too long.
22 A. Good afternoon.
23 Q. First of all, I should like to ask you to
24 indicate, with greater precision than you have done so
25 far, what was your job? You said that you worked for
1 UNPROFOR, but more specifically, who was your employer?
2 A. I worked in UNPROFOR as a cleaning lady. I
3 cleaned the premises. If that is sufficient.
4 Q. Was that for the British Battalion based in
5 Vitez that you worked for?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. When did you start your job with them?
8 A. From when, you mean? You mean in time? Or
9 how long I worked for them?
10 Q. I'm asking you the date, if you can tell us;
11 if not, the period when you worked for them.
12 A. Five days before the shooting started, before
13 the war broke out, I started working for them.
14 Q. And after the 16th of April, 1993, did you
15 resume working for the British Battalion?
16 A. I did not continue working because I couldn't
17 travel. There was a war. There was shooting. And
18 because of the war, I was left jobless.
19 Q. Madam, I come to the 16th of April, 1993, but
20 before that, I should like to ask you to tell us only
21 what your personal memories are of the things that
22 interest us and will be of interest to the Trial
23 Chamber. So we want your personal experiences. Not
24 what you suppose, not what you heard other people say;
25 only the things that you, yourself, remember.
1 Could you please tell us at what point in
2 time, according to your personal memory, you saw Drago
3 Josipovic on that day?
4 A. There was gunfire, and it was twenty to 6.00,
5 on the road between the old house of Nikola Omazic and
6 the new house of Frano Kovac. That is where I saw
7 him. And coming towards him was (redacted),
8 (redacted), and three children.
9 They stopped there on the road. They exchanged a few
10 words. Drago and Anto Papic were together. Then they
11 went back with (redacted) towards Anto Papic's house. They
12 went inside, inside the house.
13 Q. Where were you when you saw all this, all
14 that you have just described? Where were you?
15 A. I was on the balcony of my house.
16 Q. Were you on the first floor, if there is a
17 first floor, or were you on the ground floor?
18 A. The lower level was the basement, and I was
19 on the first level, on the first floor.
20 Q. Could you describe for us, what was the view
21 that you had left and right from the position where you
22 were standing? How far could you see? What houses
23 could you see from the spot where you were standing,
24 from that balcony?
25 A. I could see the old house of Nikola Omazic,
1 and the concrete slab of Frano Kovac's house, and Zenur
2 Ramic's house, and Zilka Ramic's house.
3 Q. Is it correct to say that your house is in a
4 kind of valley, in a kind of depression?
5 A. Yes. Yes, it is, a small valley, a small
7 Q. And despite this depression in the ground,
8 you still had the view that you have just told us; that
9 is, rather a wide view?
10 A. Yes, very wide, because the house is not so
11 low down.
12 Q. Could you tell us now how you can be certain
13 of the time that you have indicated?
14 A. How can I not be sure, when all these things
15 were happening in the space of only a few minutes?
16 Q. Yes, but my question was whether you had a
17 clock or a watch on you or in front of you. Was there
18 any particular reason that made you look at your watch?
19 A. I didn't look at my watch, but roughly one
20 can tell how much time this could have taken from the
21 moment the gunfire started to that point in time.
22 Q. So to be more precise, your memory is that
23 things went very fast, and this makes you believe that
24 it was approximately 20 to 6.00, but you didn't look at
25 the time?
1 A. Yes, 20 to 6.00.
2 Q. But you did not consult a clock or a watch;
3 it is what you presume. Isn't that so, from your
5 A. That was the time.
6 Q. When you saw Drago Josipovic in the
7 circumstances that you have just indicated, was he
8 carrying a weapon?
9 A. I didn't see it. I personally did not see a
11 Q. Did Anto Papic have a weapon?
12 A. I didn't see a weapon on Anto Papic either,
13 but it's possible he may have.
14 Q. Did your husband, Anto Bralo, carry a weapon?
15 A. He did have a weapon.
16 Q. What type of weapon was it?
17 A. I don't know exactly the names of those
18 weapons, but he did have one. I think it was an old
20 Q. Did your husband, Anto Bralo, wear a uniform?
21 A. Yes, but an UNPROFOR uniform.
22 Q. Previously, prior to the 16th of April,
23 1993 -- for example, on the 20th of October, 1992, the
24 date of the first events, the first conflict -- did you
25 have occasion to see Drago Josipovic carrying a weapon
1 or any parts of a uniform?
2 A. Could you please repeat the question for me?
3 Q. Gladly. Before the 16th of April, 1993, and
4 specifically on the 20th of October, 1992, did you have
5 occasion to see Drago Josipovic carrying parts of a
6 uniform or a weapon?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You spoke to us, madam, about Drago
9 Josipovic's visit on the 17th of April around 9.00. If
10 I remember well, Drago Josipovic came to have a cup of
11 coffee in your place, and he stayed for about an hour.
12 Do you recall, and could you tell us what you
13 discussed? What was the atmosphere of that meeting?
14 A. While having coffee, we discussed that
15 particular situation; that is, the situation of the
16 previous day and what had happened. And all of us, of
17 course, were very sorry about what had happened.
18 Q. Madam, my question may be a difficult one,
19 but during that encounter, more than 30 refugees were
20 gathered at Anto Papic's; several people were killed in
21 the vicinity of your house, in your area. In view of
22 those facts, I was wondering, what was the atmosphere,
23 what you said; do you remember Drago Josipovic saying
24 anything in connection with all that?
25 A. We didn't even know how many people had been
1 killed, nor what had happened, because we were all
2 round about there, myself, my husband, and my
3 neighbours, among whom was Drago Josipovic.
4 Q. But, madam, you know that several of your
5 neighbours were killed. You met (redacted); you just told
6 us about it. You knew that several Muslim houses in
7 your area had been torched.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Susak?
9 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, the witness said
10 that not a single Muslim house was set on fire on the
11 16th, nor was any one of their Muslim neighbours killed
12 on that day. So I object to this question, because no
13 Muslim was killed in their immediate neighbourhood on
14 that day.
15 MR. TERRIER:
16 Q. Let things be clear. I'm talking about your
17 area; that is, the triangle going from Anto Papic's
18 house to Drago Josipovic's house to Ramiz Ahmic's
19 house. You can see that, you can imagine that
20 triangle, more or less?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you're telling us that on the 16th of
23 April, in this area that I've just described, not a
24 single Muslim house was destroyed or burnt and that not
25 a single Muslim was killed?
1 A. I did not say that. One house was burnt
2 down: Cazim Ramiz's. And nearer to the road, those
3 two persons were killed. One house is some 50 to
4 60 metres away, and the other about 20 metres away.
5 That is what I said.
6 MR. TERRIER: I should like to show the
7 witness Exhibit 208. It is under seal, an exhibit
8 under seal, but with the agreement of the technical
9 booth, we need not reproduce it on the monitors. We
10 need not reproduce the elements that are protected from
11 the public. So Exhibit Number 208, please.
12 Q. Madam, I should like to draw your attention
13 to this area appearing between the main road, the
14 Vitez-to-Busovaca road, the two roads that branch off,
15 and the wood. It is at the bottom of the page, marked
16 by Anto Papic's house, to the right by the group of
17 houses around Drago Josipovic and his family, and at
18 the other side by the house of Ramiz Ahmic.
19 You told us that from your balcony, you had a
20 good view of Nikola Omazic's house; isn't that so?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. If you had a good view towards Nikola
23 Omazic's house -- and the ground is flat; we have been
24 able to see this -- what prevents you from seeing the
1 A. What prevented me was the fact that their
2 houses are closer to the road, and my house is closer
3 to Nikola Omazic's, as can be seen here on the
5 Q. Yes, we can see that clearly. But the ground
6 is absolutely flat. It is a low land, and we were able
7 to note by consulting photographs and seeing videotapes
8 that that is so. So my question is: As you were able
9 to see Nikola Omazic's house from your balcony, and as
10 it's still flat all the way to the road, I don't see
11 why you couldn't see (redacted), for
13 A. If I had gone into the yard, slightly above
14 the house, then I may have been able to see it. But my
15 house is on a slope, and about half a metre, the height
16 of the hedge, that is how far it is below the level.
17 If I had climbed up to the meadow, I could have been
18 able to see it.
19 Q. But I'm asking you to tell us what was your
20 view from your balcony, and show us the houses you
21 could see where you were standing when you saw Drago
22 Josipovic, which of the houses that you saw from your
23 balcony. Could you pinpoint them for us?
24 A. This is my house (indicating). I could see
25 Ramic Zenur, Ramic Cazim, Frano Kovac, and Nikola
1 Omazic's houses (indicating).
2 Q. So from your balcony you saw particularly
3 Nikola Omazic's house, in which Mr. Bukovac was staying
4 at the time, but you couldn't see anything beyond that?
5 A. Of course I couldn't see what was behind the
7 Q. I also draw your attention, madam, to the
8 fact that in the area we are referring to, ten persons
9 were killed; and more specifically, according to our
10 information, eight persons were killed on the 16th of
11 April and two others on the 17th of April. You have no
12 information about that?
13 A. None. I don't know anything about that.
14 Q. All the houses, the Muslim houses between
15 Nikola Omazic's house and the road, were torched on the
16 16th of April. You didn't see that?
17 A. Between Nikola Omazic's -- could you repeat
18 the question, please?
19 Q. All the houses, Muslim houses, situated
20 between Nikola Omazic's house and the road were set on
21 fire on the 16th of April, 1993. And you didn't see
23 A. One house was set on fire. One house was set
24 on fire. Cazim Ramic's house, on the 17th of April.
25 Q. I'm referring, madam, to seven houses; seven.
1 A. In my street, only one house. And closer to
2 the road, Fahran Ahmic's house.
3 Q. Very well. I should like to go back to the
4 question that I wanted to ask you regarding this
5 encounter on the 17th of April, in the morning, when at
6 least a significant number of refugees were in Anto
7 Papic's house, as you know and you told us. I want to
8 ask you whether you remember what Drago Josipovic may
9 have said that morning, if you remember, of course. If
10 you don't remember, tell us so, if you have no
11 information to tell us on that subject.
12 A. What Drago said to whom? To whom?
13 Q. Did he tell you anything on the 17th of April
14 in the morning as to what had happened, what he
15 thought, what he intended to do, how he felt? If he
16 said nothing, he said nothing.
17 A. While he was in my house, we discussed the
18 situation as it had occurred, and that he was sorry,
19 and we were all sorry. He didn't say anything more.
20 Q. Did you speak about the refugees in Anto
21 Papic's house?
22 A. Yes, of course we did. We spoke about them.
23 Q. What did he say about them?
24 A. He said that the conditions there were not
25 appropriate; that it wasn't very comfortable for them
2 Q. Do you know where Drago Josipovic's family
3 was on the 16th and 17th of April?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you ask Drago Josipovic, or did he give
6 you any information on the subject at all?
7 A. I think they were in Rovna, because his
8 wife's parents are there, and they were certainly
10 Q. But you didn't see them leave for Rovna?
11 You, personally?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Thank you, madam.
14 MR. TERRIER: I have no further questions,
15 Mr. President.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Susak?
17 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Re-examined by Mr. Susak:
19 Q. Mrs. Bralo, your house, is your house at a
20 lower level of ground?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. And does your lane go through the field, or
23 does it go around it because of the slight elevation
24 beyond your house?
25 A. It goes around.
1 Q. And the lower part of your house, or as you
2 called it, the basement, is it dug into the ground?
3 A. Yes, half of the house is a basement.
4 Q. So, practically, it is dug into the ground,
5 isn't it?
6 A. Yes, it is dug into the ground.
7 Q. And you cannot say that the upper part of
8 your house is an upper floor; it is the ground floor?
9 A. Ground floor.
10 Q. And when you look from the house in the
11 direction of the road, is there a steep slope or not?
12 A. No, it isn't.
13 Q. And when you look at your house, is it in a
14 small depression or not?
15 A. No.
16 Q. And when you come out on the hill which is 30
17 metres from your house, could you see the whole area
18 down to Musafer Puscul's house and Fahran Ahmic's
20 A. I would.
21 Q. Why?
22 A. Well, if I come out from my house and go up,
23 then I have a very good view. I can see all the houses
24 to the road.
25 Q. And let me conclude: The Prosecution asked
1 you what you could see from the terrace of your house,
2 and you said that from the terrace you saw Drago
3 Josipovic and Anto Papic when they met, when they
4 caught up with (redacted)?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, before that, before you went back to
7 your house, whom did you meet in front of your house?
8 Rather, who came to your house?
9 A. Frano Kovac and Kata Kovac, with their son.
10 Q. And where did you meet them?
11 A. In front of the door.
12 Q. Your house, you mean?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And from that position -- that is, when you
15 were in front of your house -- could you see Drago
16 Josipovic and Anto Papic standing at the crossroad?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And when you went back into the house, then,
19 from the terrace, you said you saw Drago Josipovic and
20 Anto Papic meeting up with (redacted) and her family
21 somewhere near Nikola Omazic's house; is that correct?
22 A. It is.
23 Q. And now my last question. You were asked by
24 the Prosecutor, and you said that Drago Josipovic and
25 Anto Papic met (redacted)
1 sometime around 5.40; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And when you saw Drago Josipovic and Anto
4 Papic at the crossroad, what time was it then? Was it
5 before or after?
6 A. It was before.
7 Q. So what time could it have been?
8 A. Well, it could have been about 20 to 5.00.
9 Q. But you say it was 20 to --
10 A. No, it could have been 25 to 5.00.
11 Q. So you would say 25 to 5.00, in your
12 judgement? Thank you very much.
13 MR. SUSAK: I have no further questions,
14 Mr. President.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: We don't have any questions
16 for you, Mrs. Bralo. Thank you for testifying. You
17 may now be released.
18 (The witness withdrew)
19 JUDGE CASSESE: And we will adjourn now
20 until -- I imagine Mr. Bralo is not available, so we
21 adjourn now?
22 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, you are quite
23 right. He is the only witness we have for this week,
24 and he will be here tomorrow at 9.00.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: So we will adjourn until
1 tomorrow at 9.00.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
3 1.00 p.m., to be reconvened on
4 Friday, the 25th day of June, 1999,
5 at 9.00 a.m.