1. 1Friday, 25th June, 1999

    2 (Open session)

    3 (The accused entered the court)

    4 (The witness entered the court)

    5 --- Commencing at 9.02 a.m.

    6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-16-T, the

    7 Prosecutor versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic,

    8 Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic, and

    9 Vladimir Santic.

    10 JUDGE CASESSE: Thank you.

    11 Good morning. Yes, Counsel Par.

    12 MR. PAR: Good morning, Your Honours.

    13 With your leave, before we begin the

    14 examination of the witness, I should like to raise one

    15 question relating to the procedure; that is, the

    16 testimony by the accused, if I may.

    17 Vlatko Kupreskic's Defence has announced the

    18 testimony given by the accused at the end of the

    19 examination. Meanwhile, the Prosecutor's office has

    20 also announced the production of additional evidence

    21 relative to the defence presented here on behalf of

    22 Vlatko Kupreskic. It is the interest of the Defence

    23 that when the accused presents, that all evidence

    24 brought against him be produced, and my question is

    25 does the Trial Chamber allow the accused to testify

  2. 1after the Prosecution has produced all the evidence, or

    2 does the accused need to give his evidence before that?

    3 So that is my question.

    4 I might also mention that in the legal system

    5 of the accused, this is resolved in the manner that the

    6 accused is given the floor last, and he is entitled to

    7 testify with regard to all the evidence adduced against

    8 him.

    9 So this is my question. I would appreciate

    10 very much your instructions in this regard.

    11 JUDGE CASESSE: I'll ask Mr. Terrier what he

    12 thinks about this matter, and then we will make a

    13 ruling.

    14 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I believe that

    15 the Rules of Procedure are quite clear on how the

    16 hearing goes. First the Prosecutor's evidence, and

    17 then the Defence evidence needs to be presented before

    18 anything else, and I believe that Mr. Par asking the

    19 accused to testify as the last one in this case,

    20 whereas the Prosecution still has to submit some of

    21 their refutals seems to me contrary to the Rules of

    22 Procedure, and I do not think that it should be

    23 accepted here at the International Tribunal.

    24 The Defence has the last word in all the

    25 judicial systems that I know, but not of the accused

  3. 1himself, and therefore the Defence here should, through

    2 the Defence counsel, have the last word, and they have

    3 this right. I believe that the rights of the accused

    4 in this manner are fully respected.

    5 JUDGE CASESSE: Let me say that on the last

    6 point, I think actually even in Nuremberg, the accused

    7 had the last word, but to make a statement, not to give

    8 evidence. So we have to make a distinction between

    9 giving evidence and making a final statement. I think

    10 this is what happened in Nuremberg, to the best of my

    11 recollection. So the accused gave evidence, and then

    12 before the Court decided to make a ruling, to issue a

    13 verdict, they were allowed to have a final word.

    14 Therefore, this distinction, I think, is important.

    15 (Trial Chamber deliberates)

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Our ruling is as follows:

    17 According to the Rules of Procedure, of course the

    18 accused, if they are called by Defence counsel as

    19 witnesses in their own behalf, of course they have to

    20 give evidence at the end of the Defence case, so before

    21 the Prosecutor starts with the rebuttal, with rebuttal

    22 witnesses. So therefore they cannot give evidence at

    23 the very end.

    24 However, this does not exclude that the

    25 Defence counsel can call the accused as witnesses in

  4. 1rejoinder after the rebuttal. They can be called again

    2 to testify in court, and on top of that, they can also

    3 make, if they wish to do so, a final statement, which

    4 is, as I say, just a statement on their own position.

    5 I hope this position is clear.

    6 MR. PAR: Yes, I understand, Your Honours.

    7 Thank you very much.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. We can now --

    9 yes, Counsel Susak?

    10 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, yesterday, as I

    11 was examining Finka Bralo, I always mentioned the time,

    12 and the witness herself spoke of twenty to six, that is

    13 5.40. However, I hear from my colleagues that what the

    14 transcript says, it is twenty to five, or 4.40. I

    15 believe that either the transcript is wrong or perhaps

    16 it was my slip of the tongue, and will you please bear

    17 this in mind, because we have spoken of 5.40, of twenty

    18 to six.

    19 JUDGE MAY: It was your slip of the tongue at

    20 the end of the evidence which created that confusion.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: We will make the record

    22 straight.

    23 MR. SUSAK: Thank you very much. Thank you.

    24 Mr. President, one more thing: Will the

    25 registry please tell me, Exhibit D35/4, has this been

  5. 1admitted into evidence, and is it properly filed?

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: No, actually I was about to

    3 raise this matter. I think you forgot yesterday,

    4 because you were tired, and we were all a bit tired, to

    5 propose that it should be admitted into evidence, but I

    6 was about to ask the Prosecution whether they had any

    7 objection. I hope not.

    8 No. So it is admitted into evidence.

    9 MR. SUSAK: Thank you very much.

    10 THE REGISTRAR: This is not 35/4 but -- it's

    11 not 35/4 but 34/4.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Thank you.

    13 This one, Counsel Susak, this one? Yes.

    14 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, it is the aerial

    15 photograph.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. All right. We can now

    17 start with our last witness, Mr. Bralo.

    18 Good morning. Could you please stand and

    19 make the solemn declaration.

    20 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honours. I

    21 solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole

    22 truth, and nothing but the truth.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    24 A. Thank you.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak?

  6. 1MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President.


    3 Examined by Mr. Susak:

    4 Q. Good morning, Mr. Bralo.

    5 A. Good morning.

    6 Q. Will you please tell the Court your full

    7 name, where you were born, and where do you live?

    8 A. Anto Bralo, the village of Santici, Vitez. I

    9 was born on the 20th of February, 1950.

    10 Q. Whom do you live with in Santici?

    11 A. I live with my wife, Finka Bralo, and my two

    12 sons.

    13 Q. Will you tell us, please, what did you do in

    14 1993, sometime in the beginning of that year? That is,

    15 what was your occupation, or where did you work?

    16 A. I'm a worker, and I worked for the British

    17 UNPROFOR as a stoker at the beginning of the year.

    18 Q. So you told us you worked at the UNPROFOR and

    19 employed by the British Battalion?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Your wife, was she employed by the British

    22 UNPROFOR at the same time?

    23 A. Yes, she also worked for the UNPROFOR in

    24 Vitez.

    25 Q. Since when had you been working for UNPROFOR?

  7. 1A. It was from the beginning of the season, so

    2 it must have been October, I believe, and I was to work

    3 for them until the end of the season; that is, until

    4 the 25th of April.

    5 Q. Will you give us the dates, please?

    6 A. From the 1st of October --

    7 Q. Yes, but which year?

    8 A. '93.

    9 Q. No, not'93; '92, wasn't it?

    10 A. Yes, '92.

    11 Q. So between the 1st of October, 1992, if I

    12 understand you properly, until?

    13 A. Until the 15th of April. That is, '93.

    14 Q. Will you come closer to the microphone,

    15 please.

    16 MR. SUSAK: Now can we ask the usher, please,

    17 to show a document to the witness.

    18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D35/4.

    19 MR. SUSAK:

    20 Q. Mr. Bralo, can you see this document? What

    21 does it say?

    22 A. Yes, of course I see it.

    23 Q. What does it mean? You also have the English

    24 translation, and you also have it in Croatian.

    25 A. This is a document certifying that I worked

  8. 1for the British Battalion.

    2 Q. That is that you were employed there?

    3 A. Yes, that I was employed there, as I have

    4 said.

    5 Q. Will you read the last sentence, please.

    6 A. This one here, you mean? "It is certified

    7 hereby that Anto Bralo is employed at Vitez camp as the

    8 boiler stoker and that he is thereby authorised to

    9 enter the camp." This is what I was given.

    10 Q. Right. Will you tell us, while you were

    11 employed by the UNPROFOR, did you work both in daytime

    12 and at night?

    13 A. Yes, I covered the first and the third shift.

    14 Q. So both during daytime and at night time?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 MR. SUSAK: Will the usher please show now

    17 the second document to the witness.

    18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D36/4.

    19 MR. SUSAK:

    20 Q. Mr. Bralo, will you tell us, what does this

    21 document mean?

    22 A. This document means that I worked -- they

    23 translate it into Croatian.

    24 Q. No, but read it to us in Croatian. What does

    25 it say?

  9. 1A. It is with regard that "I have to give you

    2 notice of the termination of your service from the 25th

    3 of April 1993."

    4 Q. So it was a certification by UNPROFOR that it

    5 was the termination of your service?

    6 A. Yes, that my service was to be terminated on

    7 the 25th of April.

    8 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, if the Prosecutor

    9 does not trust these translations, I also have the

    10 originals, if need be, to confirm the authenticity, if

    11 that proves necessary.

    12 Q. I see it is not, so, Mr. Bralo, I shall

    13 continue with my examination. Will you tell us, where

    14 were you at the time of the first conflict, that is, on

    15 the 20th of October, 1992?

    16 A. On the 20th -- on the 19th of October we went

    17 to the wood to fell some trees, to cut wood.

    18 Q. To the wood. And where is that wood?

    19 A. It is Kruscica, and I, Anto Bralo, Franjo

    20 Kovac, Mirsad Osmancevic, and my late brother, Ivo

    21 Bralo, went there.

    22 Q. Did you take part in the first conflict? You

    23 said that you went to cut wood.

    24 A. I did not take part.

    25 Q. Do you know if any houses were damaged in

  10. 1that first conflict?

    2 A. In that first conflict, I learnt it when I

    3 arrived next morning, Drago Josipovic's stable was on

    4 fire, whether his wife's or his mother's, but at any

    5 rate, it was on fire. And on his house there were

    6 bullet marks, on the walls of his house.

    7 Q. While you -- that was at the time when you

    8 were employed by the UNPROFOR, and while you were in

    9 Santici, did you ever go on guard?

    10 A. I did it, but seldom. I did not have an

    11 opportunity, since I was employed, so the people simply

    12 relieved me of that, as I simply couldn't do both

    13 things; that is, both work and stand guard.

    14 Q. Whilst you were employed with UNPROFOR, did

    15 you have an UNPROFOR uniform?

    16 A. Yes, I did. I was given it by a soldier as a

    17 kind of work clothes which I wore when I was down there

    18 in the boiler room.

    19 Q. Did you wear it all the time?

    20 A. Yes, well, I would wear it on my way back

    21 home and on my way to work.

    22 Q. Now we shall move on to the 16th of April,

    23 1993. Will you tell us, where were you on the day

    24 before that, that is, on the 15th of April, 1993?

    25 A. On the 15th of April, 1993, I came home with

  11. 1my wife.

    2 Q. And where did you come from?

    3 A. I came from UNPROFOR, from the battalion for

    4 which I worked. So we got home, we fed our livestock,

    5 had coffee. Of course, in the evening we went to bed

    6 and tried to get some rest so as to go to work next

    7 morning.

    8 Q. When did you go to bed?

    9 A. It was between 10.00 and 11.00. That is when

    10 we usually went to bed.

    11 Q. Now will you please tell us about your

    12 experience on the 16th of April. How did you wake up?

    13 A. On the 16th of April, I was woken up by

    14 gunfire. I got up, went out to the balcony, upset,

    15 very anxious, frightened, not knowing what was going

    16 on.

    17 Q. Did anyone come to your house that morning?

    18 A. Franjo Kovac and his wife and one child came

    19 to us.

    20 Q. Where did you come -- did they come to your

    21 door, or what?

    22 A. They came to our entrance. Mrs. Kata Kovac

    23 and her child entered the house and Franjo Kovac stayed

    24 outside, and we just discussed the situation and what

    25 was going on.

  12. 1Q. Did you see anyone on the road above?

    2 A. Yes, I saw Drago Josipovic and Anto Papic at

    3 the crossroad, some 50 or 60 metres away from my

    4 house.

    5 Q. And were they moving or standing?

    6 A. Franjo Kovac and I were talking what to do

    7 and how to go about it. We decided to go to Mirsad

    8 Osmancevic's stable.

    9 Q. Were you moving in the direction of Anto

    10 Papic and Drago Josipovic as they were standing at the

    11 crossroad?

    12 A. Yes, we were. But they started to the right,

    13 towards Mirsad Osmancevic's house, where Anto Papic

    14 lived, to see what was going on.

    15 Q. So they went up, and what did you do?

    16 A. We started towards Anto Papic's house,

    17 towards his stable.

    18 Q. That is, you went in the opposite direction?

    19 A. Yes. That is, we went to the left and they

    20 went to the right.

    21 Q. So you left Anto and Franjo Kovac behind the

    22 stable of --

    23 A. Yes, Anto Papic's stable.

    24 Q. What did you see after that? Did you see

    25 anyone come down the road? Did you see Drago Josipovic

  13. 1and Anto Papic after that?

    2 A. A few minutes later, perhaps some ten minutes

    3 later, I saw two or three children crying and coming.

    4 I saw Hasim Ahmic and his wife and his daughter-in-law

    5 and three children, and Drago Josipovic and Anto Papic

    6 were going by the side to Anto Papic's house, and they

    7 all entered Anto Papic's house.

    8 Q. After that, when did you see Drago Josipovic

    9 and Anto Papic again, and did you see them again at

    10 all?

    11 A. Yes, I did see them again. I saw them

    12 again. They came after a while and we talked for some

    13 time. Franjo Kovac, Anto Papic, Drago Josipovic, and I

    14 were talking. We were standing by the stable. We were

    15 all very worried, and Anto Papic was -- had tears in

    16 his eyes. And I was very upset, because we were all

    17 neighbours. We knew all those people, and we were on

    18 very good terms.

    19 Q. So that morning, you mean that you were all

    20 at home, Anto Papic, you, Franjo Kovac, and Drago

    21 Josipovic?

    22 A. Yes. We were at home, and Drago Josipovic

    23 too.

    24 Q. We are still referring to the 16th of April,

    25 1993?

  14. 1A. Yes, yes, yes.

    2 Q. So you said that you were next to the stable,

    3 and what were your movements after that?

    4 A. Well, I start to my house, down to -- and

    5 then to Nikola Omazic's house, rather, where Franjo

    6 Kovac was staying.

    7 Q. And did you then go home?

    8 A. Yes, then I went home.

    9 Q. When you look from Nikola Omazic's house in

    10 the direction of your house, there is a field there.

    11 So is there a lane, is there a path to go to your house

    12 without crossing the field?

    13 A. Yes, there is.

    14 Q. Does it go down to your house?

    15 A. Yes, there is a certain slope, and you go

    16 down it to your house.

    17 Q. Your wife told us yesterday that from the

    18 terrace from which she observed the situation and the

    19 area in front of Nikola Omazic's house, that in order

    20 to get a better view of the road, that she moved some

    21 five or six metres from the house. So what does it

    22 mean, she wanted to get a better view and being on the

    23 terrace?

    24 A. Yes, my wife is rather short, so in order to

    25 see better --

  15. 1Q. Will you please slow down, Mr. Bralo. Your

    2 house is dug into the ground?

    3 A. Yes, it is quite correct. It is dug into

    4 it. It is on the level with the field which is above

    5 it.

    6 Q. And the terrace?

    7 A. Well, the terrace is slightly higher.

    8 Q. If you move forward towards the lane, is that

    9 higher than-- is that ground higher than the terrace?

    10 A. Yes, it is. She went out into the meadow,

    11 some five or six metres into the meadow, and then she

    12 could see the road better because it is all clear.

    13 Q. You say it is all clear. It is an exposed

    14 area. So what kind of ground do we have towards the

    15 road and towards Musafer Puscul's house?

    16 A. Well, it is all exposed area, their houses,

    17 but they are scattered to the left and right. So if

    18 you come out two or three metres of the meadow, then

    19 you can see towards the road.

    20 Q. So you can see this whole area, and you also

    21 say that houses are visible and there is a good view of

    22 the areas between the houses?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. What were you doing on the 16th of

    25 April, '93, during that day?

  16. 1A. Well, I moved between my house and Anto's

    2 house and to the stable.

    3 Q. That is where you spent most of your time?

    4 A. Yes, that is where we spent most of our time.

    5 Q. Who?

    6 A. Anto Papic, Franjo Kovac, Drago Josipovic,

    7 because we were there all together within a circle.

    8 Q. Where else did you go? Did you go anywhere

    9 else?

    10 A. Well, then Marija Papic called us because she

    11 has some livestock, so Anto Papic and I went to feed

    12 her livestock. We fed pigs and poultry, hens, and

    13 things of that sort.

    14 Q. Do you have any knowledge whether, apart from

    15 (redacted) and her family, on the 16th of April, were

    16 there any other Muslims in Anto Papic's house on that

    17 day?

    18 A. Yes, there was Ramic. I mean Ramic's family

    19 was there.

    20 Q. Could you please recall the names, Ramic?

    21 A. Yes, Hasim -- no, I mean Cazim. Cazim Ramic,

    22 I think that was his name, something like that. I know

    23 him as Cazim Ramic, I believe he was. Then his wife,

    24 his daughter-in-law and two grandchildren were there.

    25 Those were my next-door neighbours.

  17. 1Q. Who else was there?

    2 A. There was also - Hasim also registered that,

    3 and his wife and his daughter-in-law and grandchildren.

    4 Q. Yes, but you already told us that.

    5 A. There (redacted), with her mother and two

    6 children. I saw her in Anto Papic's house.

    7 Q. Who else?

    8 A. There was some other refugees who must have

    9 fled from Jajce beforehand and were staying with

    10 friends or somebody, and they were also there. There

    11 were quite a number of people in the house. I saw

    12 them.

    13 Q. Right. Mr. Bralo, do you know if Mirsad

    14 Osmancevic and his family were also in Anto Papic's

    15 house?

    16 A. Yes, they were there on the 16th, Mirsad

    17 Osmanac and his wife.

    18 Q. Osmanac or what?

    19 A. Osmancevic, Osmancevic, but we called him

    20 Osmanac.

    21 Q. But he is Osmancevic?

    22 A. Yes. His wife, and he also had three sons.

    23 Q. Would you tell us whether he left Anto

    24 Papic's house on that day?

    25 A. Yes, he did. His wife, I can't remember her

  18. 1name.

    2 Q. It doesn't matter?

    3 A. His wife and three children crossed Radak's

    4 Bridge and went to Jozo Cerkez's house.

    5 Q. Did Mirsad Osmancevic go in that direction?

    6 A. Mirsad Osmancevic went, yes. Drago Josipovic

    7 went with him because he wanted to be with his wife and

    8 children at Jozo Cerkez's house because they had very

    9 close relations, they were very good friends, so they

    10 went there.

    11 Q. Did Mirsad Osmancevic have a young child,

    12 younger than a year old?

    13 A. Yes, he did, a little son.

    14 Q. Could that child have lived under the

    15 conditions prevailing in Anto Papic's house?

    16 A. No. It was not good for adults either.

    17 Q. Is that the reason why his family left for

    18 Rovna?

    19 A. Yes, very probably, because the living

    20 conditions were much better, much more comfortable.

    21 That house is spacious.

    22 Q. Do you know how Mirsad Osmancevic went to

    23 Rovna?

    24 A. Drago Josipovic took him as far as Jozo

    25 Cerkez's house.

  19. 1Q. Did he help him in any other way?

    2 A. Yes, he did. He gave him a vest, the vest he

    3 was wearing. He gave it to him so that he would be

    4 safer going to Jozo Cerkez's house.

    5 Q. Do you know how long he stayed up there and

    6 whether he knew anyone there?

    7 A. No, he didn't stay very long.

    8 Q. Who didn't stay very long?

    9 A. Mirsad Osmancevic, with his wife and

    10 children. They came back soon, after an hour or two.

    11 Q. Where did they come back?

    12 A. They came back to Anto Papic's house, which

    13 they had left.

    14 Q. Do you know why?

    15 A. Well, I didn't see it myself, but I heard

    16 that a soldier threatened Jozo.

    17 Q. Jozo Cerkez?

    18 A. Yes, Jozo Cerkez, that he would blow his

    19 house up if Mirsad Osmancevic was there, so Mirsad

    20 Osmancevic came back to Anto Papic's house.

    21 Q. Did he have any problems on his way back?

    22 A. No, he didn't.

    23 Q. Did he come back on his own or did his family

    24 come with him?

    25 A. They came back together, and they came to

  20. 1Anto Papic's house.

    2 Q. Did they settle down in that house?

    3 A. Yes, they did, and they spent the night

    4 there.

    5 Q. Would you tell us -- but I have to say that

    6 you and Mirsad Osmancevic had gone to cut wood, so I

    7 conclude that you cooperated, that you worked together.

    8 Could you tell us something about him? Was he a

    9 Muslim?

    10 A. Yes, he was a Muslim by nationality.

    11 Q. Do you know any other information about him?

    12 A. Yes, I know that before the conflict between

    13 the Croats and the Muslims, he used to go to a place

    14 called Preocica for the training of soldiers.

    15 Q. Whose soldiers?

    16 A. Most probably soldiers of the army of Bosnia

    17 and Herzegovina, as they called it, because I talked to

    18 him but he never wanted to discuss it with me.

    19 Q. So he was a member of the army of Bosnia and

    20 Herzegovina?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. He trained the younger soldiers?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Is he still an officer in the army of Bosnia

    25 and Herzegovina or the Federation of Bosnia and

  21. 1Herzegovina?

    2 A. I heard about it, but I didn't discuss it

    3 with him.

    4 Q. What did you hear?

    5 A. I heard that he was some kind of senior

    6 officer.

    7 Q. With a rank?

    8 A. Yes, with a rank.

    9 Q. You said that sometimes you would patrol, but

    10 that you didn't have time. Who kept records in that

    11 area as to the patrols?

    12 A. It was Nikica Grebenar.

    13 Q. Did he patrol?

    14 A. No.

    15 Q. Why not?

    16 A. He had other duties. He was some kind of

    17 inspector. He had more to do, so he didn't have to

    18 patrol and he couldn't do it.

    19 Q. Could you tell us, please, the area where you

    20 patrolled?

    21 A. From Anto Papic's house to the road; that is,

    22 to Jozo Santic's house, Drago Josipovic's house,

    23 because his house is next to the road.

    24 Q. So where Drago Josipovic's house is next to

    25 the road?

  22. 1A. Yes.

    2 Q. Since these are hamlets with a special

    3 configuration of terrain, could you tell us, along the

    4 route you mentioned in the direction where the houses

    5 of (redacted), Asim Ahmic, and (redacted) are located

    6 toward the River Lasva parallel to the route you took,

    7 who patrolled there?

    8 A. Nenad Santic did. They patrolled the other

    9 hamlet.

    10 Q. So that was a special route, a special area

    11 where other people patrolled?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. We are now talking about the road. Do you

    14 know where the houses of (redacted),

    15 are located?

    16 A. Yes, I know.

    17 Q. Would you tell us, their house across the

    18 road to the north, who patrolled there?

    19 A. Slavko Papic.

    20 Q. So there was another group of people from

    21 that hamlet who patrolled, and who was the leader of

    22 the patrol?

    23 A. Slavko Papic.

    24 Q. Slavko Papic then. So above the road is the

    25 area where they patrolled, and where (redacted), and

  23. 1Asim Ahmic lived is where a group of people kept guard,

    2 and Nenad Santic lived there as well?

    3 A. Yes, Nenad Santic lived there.

    4 Q. Were you a member of the HVO?

    5 A. No, no.

    6 Q. Were you in the reserves?

    7 A. Yes, I was in the reserves, but sometimes.

    8 Q. So you were in the reserves?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. If you were in the reserves, could you please

    11 tell when you were mobilised for the first time, if you

    12 were mobilised?

    13 A. On the 15th of April, 19 -- on the 19th of

    14 April, 1993, then.

    15 Q. So after the second conflict?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Who was mobilised with you then?

    18 A. Franjo Kovac, Drago Josipovic.

    19 Q. Could you speak a little closer to the

    20 microphone, please?

    21 A. Drago Josipovic, Anto Bralo, Franjo Kovac.

    22 Q. Was Nikica Grebenar mobilised?

    23 A. Nikica Grebenar.

    24 MR. SUSAK: Well, you really don't have to go

    25 on.

  24. 1I would like, Mr. President, to ask the usher

    2 to show the witness Exhibit number -- just a moment,

    3 please. I think it's 353.

    4 Yes, this is the exhibit.

    5 Q. Would you please look at page 78? I

    6 apologise. Page 84. Have you opened it?

    7 Mr. Bralo, on page 84 you can see a name

    8 somewhere in the middle, a little down. Would you

    9 please find your name? I think it's number 7.562.

    10 Have you found your name?

    11 A. Yes, yes.

    12 Q. Would you please look at the document itself

    13 and not at the monitor. You have the document in front

    14 of you. Have you found it?

    15 A. Yes, I have.

    16 Q. First of all, is that your signature?

    17 A. No, no, it's not my signature.

    18 Q. Underneath your name is the name "Nikola

    19 Bralo". Is he your brother?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Is that his signature below yours?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. Are these two signatures the same?

    24 A. Yes. Someone signed. They are both

    25 signatures, but they are neither my signature nor my

  25. 1brother's signature.

    2 Q. The time of your mobilisation is stated as

    3 the 8th of April, 1992, until the 10th of December,

    4 1995. Is that correct?

    5 A. No.

    6 Q. How do you explain this?

    7 A. I know it's not, because I didn't sign this,

    8 and somebody probably put this there because of the

    9 shares, so I would get more shares. But it's not my

    10 signature.

    11 Q. So the date here says that you were

    12 mobilised. Is that correct?

    13 A. No.

    14 Q. If you were employed in UNPROFOR, could you

    15 have at the same time been an active member of the HVO?

    16 A. No, I couldn't have been, because I was

    17 working in UNPROFOR.

    18 Q. So could you tell us when you were mobilised

    19 for the first time and, in your opinion, from what time

    20 were you a member of the HVO?

    21 A. The 19th of April, 1993.

    22 Q. Where were you employed before that?

    23 A. In the British UNPROFOR.

    24 Q. So that is why you claimed that this

    25 information in Exhibit 353 is not correct; do you agree

  26. 1with me?

    2 A. Yes, yes, I agree. This is not mine.

    3 Q. Is this your brother's signature?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. How do you explain this, that both signatures

    6 are exactly the same?

    7 A. Well, I see that they are the same because

    8 someone signed it, but it's neither my signature nor my

    9 brother's signature.

    10 Q. You said that you knew Franjo Kovac, who is

    11 your neighbour?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Do you know when he was mobilised?

    14 A. He was mobilised at the same time that I was,

    15 on the 19th.

    16 Q. Could you tell us the complete date?

    17 A. The 19th of April, 1993.

    18 Q. Was he mobilised before that?

    19 A. No.

    20 Q. Why is the date there a different date in his

    21 case also?

    22 A. As far as I knew him, he would come here.

    23 But he lived in Novi Travnik and was employed there, so

    24 he wasn't mobilised.

    25 Q. Did they know about him or not?

  27. 1A. Well, they didn't.

    2 Q. How would they know about him when he spent

    3 more time with his parents than in his own house?

    4 A. He would only come from time to time. He had

    5 a job.

    6 MR. SUSAK: I would now like to show you an

    7 aerial photograph, and that will be the last part of my

    8 examination. Would the usher please hand the exhibit

    9 to the witness.

    10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D37/4.

    11 MR. SUSAK:

    12 Q. Mr. Bralo --

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Would you please circle the house of Nikola

    15 Omazic on that photograph?

    16 A. (Witness complies)

    17 Q. Would you mark it with "A"?

    18 A. (Witness complies)

    19 Q. I'll now read something to you. Kijazim

    20 Ramic made a statement on the 16th of February, 1995,

    21 so if the Prosecutor does not object, I would like to

    22 read only one sentence, and I would like you to put the

    23 circle around his house. Then I will ask you a

    24 question about this.

    25 A. (Witness complies)

  28. 1Q. It says in the statement, which was given

    2 after both conflicts so I suppose it refers to both, it

    3 says, "I saw Anto Papic and Drago Josipovic in

    4 camouflage uniforms and armed. They did not kill

    5 anyone."

    6 Would you please now circle Kijazim Ramic's

    7 house? Would you please --

    8 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment, Mr. Susak.

    9 (Trial Chamber confers)

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak, as we ruled

    11 yesterday, you can't cite from a statement of a witness

    12 who has not been called. You may call this witness,

    13 but this is not evidence, so we will regard this as

    14 inadmissible and we will disregard whatever has been

    15 said. Please don't read out any statement from people

    16 who have not come to court.

    17 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I accept this, but

    18 I did say "if the Prosecutor did not object." The

    19 Prosecutor did not object, but that does not matter

    20 now. I will just put a question to the witness.

    21 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I should

    22 nevertheless like to say something.

    23 [Indiscernible]... was authorised Mr. Susak

    24 to read things of this kind again, and after all, it is

    25 up to the Court, of course, to control what is being

  29. 1said and what is being used, but Mr. Susak should have

    2 asked for the authorisation to quote something from the

    3 statement which was given to the Prosecution. However,

    4 it seems to me that it is really questionable, and not

    5 to use another word, to show to this witness something

    6 to equate a witness who said that Mr. Josipovic did not

    7 kill anyone.

    8 At any rate, this is referring to the first

    9 conflict and not the second conflict. It's quite true

    10 that this statement was taken after the second

    11 conflict, but it is very clear, and this is something

    12 that I can testify here, this witness -- this

    13 [indiscernible] witness is referring to the 20th of

    14 October, '92, and I think it is wholly questionable

    15 when somebody just reads out that statement just like

    16 that and then try to adduce it as a kind of evidence.

    17 That is all that I had to say. Thank you

    18 very much.

    19 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I did not think it

    20 would be evidence, because you ruled on this yesterday,

    21 but this was just a kind of aid on the basis of which I

    22 would ask questions of the witness.

    23 Q. Mr. Bralo, would you please tell me, have you

    24 marked Kijazim Ramic's house? Would you now put number

    25 "1" next to Nikola Omazic's house and number "2" next

  30. 1to Cazim Ahmic's (sic) house?

    2 A. Kijazim Ramic?

    3 Q. Ramic, yes, yes.

    4 A. (Witness complies)

    5 Q. Would you now put an arrow to indicate the

    6 direction from Kijazim Ramic's house to Nikola Omazic's

    7 house?

    8 A. (Witness complies)

    9 Q. From the direction of Kijazim Ramic's house,

    10 do you have a view of the road where Drago Josipovic

    11 and Anto Papic were moving on the 16th of April, 1993?

    12 A. Yes, yes, because it's just a few metres

    13 away.

    14 Q. Could Kijazim Ramic have seen him that

    15 morning, considering the position of the windows on his

    16 house?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. The windows of Kijazim Ramic's house, do they

    19 face the house of Nikola Omazic?

    20 A. They face -- some windows face the other

    21 house and some windows face the road.

    22 Q. Could Kijazim Ramic have seen from his window

    23 Naim Ahmic's house, Muzafer Puscul and where --

    24 A. Could you please repeat the question?

    25 Q. From that position, was there a view of

  31. 1Muzafer Puscul's house and Fahran Ahmic's house?

    2 A. Yes, there was, yes.

    3 Q. So there was a view?

    4 A. Yes. You could see the house of Fahran Ahmic

    5 and Muzafer Puscul.

    6 Q. Could you please mark Muzafer Puscul's house

    7 with the letter "A"?

    8 A. (Witness complies)

    9 Q. Could you now mark or circle the houses of

    10 (redacted) and Asim Ahmic with "B", "C",

    11 and "D"?

    12 A. (Witness complies)

    13 Q. Have you done it?

    14 A. Just a moment, please.

    15 Q. Are you sure of this?

    16 A. Yes. Just a moment, just a moment. I don't

    17 see very well on this photograph.

    18 Q. If you find the Ogrjev warehouse, you'll

    19 orient yourself better, and if you have marked anything

    20 incorrectly, would you please cross it out.

    21 So these are the houses of (redacted), and

    22 Asim Ahmic.

    23 Would you now draw a line between (redacted)

    24 (redacted)?

    25 A. (Witness complies)

  32. 1Q. If one were to look from (redacted)

    2 house or stable toward the road and toward the houses

    3 of (redacted) and the others, would an average person

    4 have been able to observe a group of soldiers?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. I'm asking you this because some witnesses

    7 said they saw a group of witnesses (sic) moving toward

    8 Muzafer Puscul's house or, rather, from that to the

    9 road and toward the houses of (redacted), and Asim

    10 Ahmic.

    11 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I have been told

    12 that in the transcript, it says "a group of witnesses."

    13 I think it should be "a group of soldiers."

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: All right.

    15 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I would now like

    16 to go into private session.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, we'll go into private

    18 session.

    19 (Private session)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

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  44. 1(redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (Open session)

    23 Cross-examined by Mr. Terrier:

    24 Q. Good morning, Mr. Bralo. I'm one of the

    25 counsel for the Prosecution, and I should like to ask

  45. 1you several questions on the basis of your testimony.

    2 I should like to know, Mr. Bralo, how were you

    3 recruited by the British battalion as a stoker? How is

    4 it that you found that job?

    5 A. My father-in-law worked as a stoker, and then

    6 they needed another worker, so my father-in-law asked

    7 me would I like to join, and I said yes. I went there

    8 and talked to a captain there, and they suggested that

    9 I come, and that is how I came and began to work.

    10 Q. You told us that a British soldier gave you a

    11 uniform. I didn't quite understand whether it was

    12 really an army uniform, or was it working clothes,

    13 simply? What was it, precisely?

    14 A. It was -- well, sort of green, olive-grey,

    15 something like that, trousers, and a camouflage jacket,

    16 whatever you call it, and that is what I used when I

    17 went to work. Since I worked in the boiler room, and

    18 that's not a particularly clean job, so I used it. It

    19 had pockets on the side and longer -- quite a deep

    20 pocket, actually, on the side.

    21 Q. But this camouflage jacket was given you by a

    22 British soldier?

    23 A. Yes. Both the trousers and the jacket.

    24 Q. And these were the clothes that you had on

    25 the 16th of April, 1993?

  46. 1A. Yes.

    2 Q. On the 16th of April, 1993, did you also have

    3 a weapon?

    4 A. I took it when I went from my house towards

    5 Anto Papic's stable. I took it from my house.

    6 Q. And this means, if I understand you properly,

    7 that as of the moment when you left your house that

    8 morning, you were armed with a weapon?

    9 A. Well, not quite straight away, but I had to

    10 go back, because we often moved between this house and

    11 the stable and Nikola Omazic's house. When I went into

    12 the house for the second time, it was then that I

    13 picked up the rifle and started for Anto Papic's

    14 house -- stable, sorry.

    15 Q. Could you please explain, why did you think

    16 it was necessary to arm yourself with a weapon to go to

    17 Anto Papic's stable? What was the reason behind it?

    18 A. Well, what could I do? There were women and

    19 children, somebody else might have taken it, and I had

    20 it already, so it was safer to have it with me than

    21 leave it in the house.

    22 Q. What kind of a weapon was that? Can you

    23 specify it?

    24 A. You mean my rifle?

    25 Q. Yes.

  47. 1A. An old M48 rifle. That's what it was called

    2 at the time.

    3 Q. You told us, Mr. Bralo, that after the Kovac

    4 family arrived, you remained outside your house with

    5 your neighbour, Franjo Kovac; is that correct?

    6 A. It is.

    7 Q. And you told us that at that moment, you saw

    8 Anto Papic and Drago Josipovic at some five (sic) or

    9 sixty metres away from you; is that correct?

    10 A. It is, yes. I was in front of my house and

    11 they were at the crossroad. Franjo Kovac and I started

    12 towards the stable, and they started towards Franjo

    13 Kovac's house -- that is, where he lived, and that was

    14 the house of his father-in-law, Nikola Omazic.

    15 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Terrier, I want to interrupt

    16 to ask about the crossroads. The witness has produced

    17 or has marked an aerial photograph, D37/4. If that

    18 could be put in front of him, perhaps he could mark on

    19 it or show us where the crossroads to which he is

    20 referring are.

    21 A. This is my house, and that is the crossroad

    22 down to Anto Papic. Up there is Nikola Omazic and my

    23 house to the right (indicating).

    24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Bralo, can you point to where

    25 the crossroads are? At the moment, I can't see it.

  48. 1A. (Witness complies)

    2 MR. TERRIER: I believe, Mr. President, that

    3 the witness has some problems with this photograph.

    4 Q. Mr. Bralo, could you please show us a place

    5 which is in the direction of the Lasva River from your

    6 house; that is, down the slope? Is that where you saw

    7 Drago Josipovic and Anto Papic the first time that you

    8 saw them?

    9 A. No. No. No, here, at this crossroad, in the

    10 direction of Nikola Omazic's house (indicating).

    11 Q. Can you see better in this way? If we turn

    12 the photograph, is it easier for you now to get your

    13 bearings?

    14 A. No, it is not.

    15 This is the road, the asphalt road towards

    16 Radak's Bridge; that is, towards the Lasva, towards the

    17 river. Here it is, the bridge (indicating).

    18 Q. Can you now find the place where you were

    19 standing with Franjo Kovac at the moment when you

    20 spotted Drago Josipovic and Anto Papic? Perhaps you

    21 could start from your house. Find your house first,

    22 and then show us where that particular place is in

    23 relation to your house.

    24 A. This is my house (indicating), and we were

    25 here, on the balcony; I, Franjo Kovac. Then we started

  49. 1here, towards the crossroad, but we were down below it,

    2 towards Anto Papic's stable, and they started upward,

    3 towards Nikola Omazic's house.

    4 Q. Could you please show us these particular

    5 crossroads in relation to your house. Where is that

    6 crossroads?

    7 A. This is the lane to my house.

    8 Q. When you refer to "the crossroads," you are

    9 referring to the intersection between the road which

    10 goes down to your house and the lane which goes to

    11 Nikola Omazic's -- to Papic's house?

    12 A. Yes -- no. No, Anto Papic is to the left,

    13 and I'm like this, and there is the lane which goes

    14 down (indicating). Nikola Omazic is at the slightly

    15 higher ground, on a plateau.

    16 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, to clarify it,

    17 we shall show the witness another photograph. Perhaps

    18 it will be easier than to identify the site.

    19 THE REGISTRAR: This is 370.

    20 MR. TERRIER:

    21 Q. Can you find your way around this map?

    22 A. I can, yes. Yes, I can. Much better.

    23 Q. Could you then show us your house, please?

    24 A. (Witness complies)

    25 Q. Will you now indicate the crossroads that you

  50. 1mentioned?

    2 A. (Witness complies)

    3 Q. So this is the intersection between the lane

    4 which goes down to your house and another lane which

    5 goes from Anto Papic's house to the main road?

    6 A. No, to Nikola Omazic's house, then Ramic's

    7 house, and then on towards the main road.

    8 Q. Could you point on this map that place where

    9 you were with Frano Kovac that morning when you noticed

    10 Drago Josipovic and Anto Papic for the first time?

    11 Where were you at that moment?

    12 A. Here (indicating) in front of -- right in

    13 front of the house, about a metre from the house.

    14 Q. Will you please put an "A" there? Will you

    15 please put the letter "A" next to that place?

    16 A. (Witness complies)

    17 Q. Now will you mark on this photograph the

    18 place where Drago Josipovic and Anto Papic were at the

    19 time when you saw them for the first time?

    20 A. (Witness complies)

    21 Q. Will you please then put the letter "B" next

    22 to it?

    23 A. (Witness complies)

    24 Q. What is the distance between these two

    25 points, in your judgement?

  51. 1A. Fifty or sixty metres. I did not really

    2 count them, but you have a good view because this lane

    3 goes down a little bit, but you can see. You do get a

    4 full view.

    5 Q. You have no doubt in your mind. You had no

    6 problem. You had absolutely no obstacle, nothing, at

    7 this distance of 50 to 60 metres, to see Drago

    8 Josipovic and Anto Papic?

    9 A. No, nothing at all. I saw them.

    10 Q. What were they wearing at that moment?

    11 A. Anto Papic had a camouflage uniform, and

    12 Drago Josipovic had only a vest, an army vest, and

    13 civilian trousers. I don't know what kind. I really

    14 wasn't looking.

    15 Q. Was he armed?

    16 A. I did not see anything at that moment, but an

    17 hour later I saw that he had a rifle with him.

    18 Q. At what time did you see Anto Papic and Drago

    19 Josipovic at that crossroads, at those crossroads for

    20 the first time?

    21 A. Half past 5.00, perhaps a minute or two

    22 later, as they came out of the house, and I cast a look

    23 and I saw them in front of me.

    24 Q. At that moment, could you look at your watch

    25 or a clock?

  52. 1A. No. I didn't have a watch on my wrist, and

    2 we do not have a clock on the wall. We usually have

    3 some small clock somewhere in the house, but, no, I

    4 didn't look at that.

    5 Q. So when you mentioned the hour which you just

    6 mentioned, it is just an estimate?

    7 A. Well, that was -- I usually got up at half

    8 past 5.00 because I had to go to work, so by the time I

    9 would be ready and had my coffee, that was about the

    10 time when I had to go to work. So that was the time

    11 when I got up, as a rule.

    12 Q. When you saw Anto Papic and Drago Josipovic

    13 for the first time at that place which you pointed on

    14 this map, what were they doing?

    15 A. What they were doing? What could they be

    16 doing? They were there.

    17 Q. Yes, but my question is were they about to

    18 start in some direction, were they moving, or were they

    19 standing?

    20 A. They were standing, but then Frano Kovac and

    21 I started from Anto Bralo's house to Anto Papic's

    22 stable. They set towards -- they set off towards

    23 Nikola Omazic's house, and we set off towards Anto

    24 Papic's stable.

    25 Q. When did you see them again?

  53. 1A. A few minutes later, perhaps ten minutes

    2 later, by the time that Anto Papic and I crossed over

    3 to the stable. (redacted) and three children and her

    4 daughter-in-law came along, and Drago Josipovic and

    5 Anto Papic were with them, reached Anto Papic's house

    6 and entered it.

    7 Q. You told us that that day you spent in the

    8 vicinity or in the stable of Anto Papic; is that so?

    9 A. In front of the stable, my house, Nikola

    10 Omazic's house, yes, that was roughly that area,

    11 because we dared not go up towards the road.

    12 Q. Did you hear and could you see in the

    13 direction of the road?

    14 A. We heard gunfire. All we heard was gunfire.

    15 Q. Could you see anything?

    16 A. No, I couldn't, because I wasn't going up

    17 there. I mostly stayed down in my house, and this

    18 stable, there was a wall there, and that is where we

    19 were.

    20 Q. Excuse me, but all that day you did not see

    21 the smoke coming out from the burning houses?

    22 A. Yes, yes, from my house one could see the

    23 smoke, one could see the smoke.

    24 Q. Did you see any soldiers?

    25 A. I did not see any soldiers because my house

  54. 1is slightly lower than Nikola Omazic's house. I could

    2 see anyone -- if there was anyone, I could see them

    3 only had I climbed up.

    4 Q. Yes. But, Witness, you did climb up, because

    5 you did go to Anto Papic's stable. You went to Anto

    6 Papic's stable, so you had to go up the road to this

    7 intersection and then turn left, or am I wrong?

    8 A. No, no. No, you are wrong, because in front

    9 of my house the ground is level, there is a very slight

    10 slope towards Anto Papic's slope, and we are going

    11 below the road towards this -- we were off that part of

    12 that lane because it was safer.

    13 Q. On that day, on the 16th of April, 1993, did

    14 you learn what was going on in Ahmici at any time

    15 during that day?

    16 A. Well, I could see, but I did not learn

    17 anything. We were talking about what could it be,

    18 because there was gunfire and things were happening up

    19 there on the higher ground, and we did not move in the

    20 direction of the road.

    21 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, now I should

    22 like to move into private session, because I want to

    23 raise the question mentioned by a protected witness.

    24 (Private session)

    25 (redacted)

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  59. 1(redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (Open session)

    6 MR. TERRIER:

    7 Q. I should like to go back to the situation

    8 that you described to us referring to the 16th of

    9 April. We have a large number of Muslim refugees

    10 driven away from those houses and all gathered in Anto

    11 Papic's house. We were told that over 30 persons were

    12 crowded in two rooms, nine metres square each, and that

    13 you, with other persons of Croat origin, you were

    14 outside. Now, why did those persons, who were all

    15 crowded and in such difficult conditions, why did they

    16 not come out and be with you outside on that day? How

    17 does one explain this situation?

    18 A. Those ladies and those gentlemen who were in

    19 Anto Papic's house could come out whenever they

    20 wanted. There was no bathroom in the house. There was

    21 no proper accommodation. It is true that there were

    22 quite a number of them. I did not count them, but they

    23 were also in the passage and in the sitting room and in

    24 the kitchen. True, there were quite a number of them.

    25 They were really crowded there. They were packed in

  60. 1there. So they would come out once in a while, or go

    2 to the toilet, and then return.

    3 Q. Yes, but why were there no Muslim refugees in

    4 your house?

    5 A. I don't know. The door was open to anyone

    6 who wanted, who had fled from the road. So they could

    7 have come too. But presumably they went down there

    8 because they knew Anto Papic better, and he is an

    9 elderly man, and he is also -- he has been living in

    10 the village for a very long time. He was a local man.

    11 Q. So all these women mostly went to Anto Papic

    12 because they knew him, and so they were in those pretty

    13 horrible conditions that were described to us?

    14 A. Yes, I suppose, because they knew Anto best.

    15 Q. Witness, I'm now moving on to the next day,

    16 to the 17th of April. Do you remember if some persons

    17 of authority came to Anto Papic's house that morning?

    18 A. As a far as I know, there were those

    19 villagers, local people. (redacted), with

    20 her mother and children; Cazim Ramic; Hasim Ahmic, with

    21 his wife and his daughter-in-law and their children,

    22 they were there. And on the 17th, I don't know, in the

    23 morning, anyway, they went towards the road with Anto

    24 Papic.

    25 Q. But as far as you remember, when was it that

  61. 1they went towards the --

    2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are sorry,

    3 we couldn't understand the answer of the witness.

    4 MR. TERRIER:

    5 Q. What about Hasim Ahmic and his children?

    6 Could you explain?

    7 A. Fahrudin Ahmic -- not Fahrudin Ahmic, his

    8 father, Hasim, and his mother, Fahran's mother and

    9 daughter-in-law and children, they were at Anto

    10 Papic's, and Hasim Ahmic was there with his children.

    11 Q. I shall rephrase my question. Do you

    12 remember if, on the 16th April, some decisions or some

    13 orders were issued regarding the removal of bodies?

    14 A. I don't know. I don't remember anything

    15 about that, nor did I hear anything about that from

    16 anyone.

    17 Q. Who and how decided that all the refugees

    18 should be taken to Zume?

    19 A. Well, somebody, it must have been somebody in

    20 the civil defence, somebody who had the authority,

    21 because the conditions were so bad, and the man

    22 couldn't provided any food for those people. He could

    23 not feed them.

    24 Q. In the summary of your statement sent us by

    25 Mr. Susak, it says that somebody from the civil defence

  62. 1in Vitez said that women and children should be removed

    2 and be taken to Pican's coffee shop. Is that what you

    3 told Mr. Susak?

    4 A. Yes, they were taken, but not to the coffee

    5 shop, but the house was quite spacious, and they were

    6 taken there until UNPROFOR came and collected them from

    7 there. From what we knew, they were told they would be

    8 taken in the direction of Zenica. But where they were

    9 taken, I don't know.

    10 Q. What do you mean when you say "somebody from

    11 the civil defence in Vitez"? What do you mean by that?

    12 A. I don't mean anything. I didn't talk to

    13 those people, I didn't communicate with them, so I

    14 didn't know. And I was at home, so ...

    15 Q. But did you see those people?

    16 A. No.

    17 Q. How do you know that it was somebody from the

    18 Vitez civil defence?

    19 A. I don't know who it was. Anto perhaps --

    20 Papic, he speaks some German, and he communicated with

    21 him. We did not move much around, but he said that

    22 UNPROFOR would take them over, that he would be taken

    23 there to Pican's coffee shop, and Anto went with them.

    24 Because this coffee shop, it was a rather large house,

    25 it was a two-storied house, so the refugees were taken

  63. 1there. And when did UNPROFOR come and take them away,

    2 I don't know. I did not see it.

    3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please

    4 come closer to the microphone.

    5 MR. TERRIER:

    6 Q. As a matter of fact, you have a very vague

    7 memory of that period of time, don't you?

    8 A. Well, I didn't have a watch. I could not

    9 really follow -- I couldn't really know when things

    10 were happening.

    11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please

    12 come closer to the microphone.

    13 MR. TERRIER:

    14 Q. I'm not asking you to remember if you say

    15 that you forgot things. I should simply like to make a

    16 difference between what your personal recollection is

    17 and the assumption as to what happened or what you were

    18 told that had happened. As regards this civil defence

    19 in Vitez, you seem to be very vague.

    20 A. Well, I did not communicate with them at all,

    21 with those people.

    22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please

    23 come closer to the microphone.

    24 MR. TERRIER:

    25 Q. Could you tell us briefly what you did that

  64. 1day?

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: The interpreters are

    3 insisting that you should speak into the microphone,

    4 closer to the microphone.

    5 A. On the 17th, in the morning, Franjo Kovac and

    6 Drago Josipovic came to my house around 9.00, or half

    7 past nine, it could have been, 9.30, something like

    8 that. Drago then went home to feed the livestock, and

    9 we went to Marija Papic's, to the right from my house,

    10 across a meadow. We went there to feed her cows and

    11 pigs and hens so that they wouldn't die.

    12 MR. TERRIER:

    13 Q. Yes? That is all you remember about that

    14 day, about the 17th of April?

    15 A. The 17th, yes. Then we returned, and we were

    16 told then, on the way, that they had gone with Anto

    17 Papic, those people who had been in his house had gone

    18 up to Pican's coffee shop, or rather to a house above

    19 Pican's coffee shop.

    20 Q. Do you know what happened afterwards?

    21 A. I heard that they went off in the direction

    22 of Zenica. That is what I heard, that UNPROFOR took

    23 them in the direction of Zenica, but where, exactly, I

    24 don't know.

    25 Q. And who could tell you that?

  65. 1A. Anto Papic went up there with them, and when

    2 he came back home, he told us -- and he was also

    3 looking for milk and some clothes, because Mirsad

    4 Osmanac had a small baby. He had two older boys of six

    5 and seven, and they were looking for some clothes and

    6 milk for that one-year-old baby. My wife gave him some

    7 clothes and poured him some milk, and by the time Anto

    8 Papic had gone back up there, UNPROFOR had already

    9 taken them away.

    10 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I have no

    11 further questions. I should merely like to tender

    12 exhibit number 370.

    13 Any objections?

    14 I should like to add, Mr. President, that I

    15 was referring to 266, not 262.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: All right.

    17 Counsel Susak?

    18 MR. SUSAK: No objection, Mr. President.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: They are admitted into

    20 evidence.

    21 Counsel Susak, re-examination?

    22 MR. SUSAK: Just very briefly,

    23 Mr. President.

    24 Re-examined by Mr. Susak:

    25 Q. Mr. Bralo, you said that you saw Anto Papic

  66. 1on the 17th of April, 1993?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Did he tell you about UNPROFOR being up on

    4 the road, or was it someone else?

    5 A. He said that about UNPROFOR.

    6 Q. Did anyone else tell you about UNPROFOR

    7 besides Anto Papic?

    8 A. No, nobody else told me about it. Because he

    9 could speak a little German.

    10 Q. To the Prosecutor's question, you replied

    11 that you had seen smoke from your house. Where did you

    12 see it?

    13 A. Across the road.

    14 Q. So over the road, across the road, to the

    15 north of the Busovaca/Vitez road?

    16 A. Yes, the Busovaca/Vitez road, yes.

    17 Q. Do you know whether any Muslim's house near

    18 Anto Papic's house or your house was burnt down?

    19 A. No, not on the 16th, but yes, on the 17th.

    20 Q. Whose house burnt down on the 17th?

    21 A. Cazim Ramic's house. His house was burnt on

    22 the 17th.

    23 Q. Was any other Muslim house burnt down?

    24 A. In the area of my lane, no other houses were

    25 burnt down.

  67. 1Q. Did the Muslims in Anto Papic's house on the

    2 16th of April, 1993, come to your house or Nikola

    3 Omazic's house?

    4 A. Yes, yes, Hasim Ahmic and his wife came to my

    5 house, because she knew my wife, so they came in -- she

    6 came in. She talked with her. I didn't go in. I

    7 stood outside with Hasim. We chatted.

    8 Q. Were the Muslims able to go in and out of

    9 Anto Papic's house all day?

    10 A. Yes, they could go in and out as they liked.

    11 Q. Was the door of his house locked?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. Would you please say whether you remember

    14 which of the Croats were in your house on the 16th of

    15 April, 1993?

    16 A. As far as I remember it was Marija Papic with

    17 her two sons; Simo Vidovic and his wife; Jozo Santic.

    18 These are all elderly people.

    19 Q. Could any of the Muslims have come to your

    20 house and stayed there if they had wanted to?

    21 A. Yes, of course. Of course. My next-door

    22 neighbours could have come the same way that they went

    23 to Anto's house.

    24 Q. And one more question. On the 17th -- I

    25 apologise, on the 16th of April, 1993, did you go to

  68. 1Anto Papic's house?

    2 A. Yes, I was there in the evening. It could

    3 have been about 8 p.m. or half past 8.00. I had run

    4 out of cigarettes, so I asked Mrs. Ramic, and she gave

    5 me --

    6 Q. What's her name?

    7 A. Zilka. Zilka Ramic.

    8 Q. Who else was with you?

    9 A. Franjo Kovac.

    10 Q. Very well. Before you entered Anto Papic's

    11 house, did you come across any Muslims, either in his

    12 yard or in his house or in your house or in the

    13 courtyard?

    14 A. I saw Hasim Ahmic and (redacted). They

    15 were at my house, and all the others were in front of

    16 Anto's house or walking up and down the road towards

    17 the house of Nikola Omazic, as far as I could see.

    18 Q. And for the sake of clarity, one more

    19 question. We keep referring to the crossroads above

    20 your house. Would you please tell us whether there is

    21 a road leading to Rovna, and then from Rovna to the

    22 main road, near Drago Josipovic's house?

    23 A. No. There is a road behind and in front.

    24 Q. Very well. I will ask another question: The

    25 road from Rovna which passes through Anto Papic's

  69. 1courtyard, does it pass by Nikola Omazic's house toward

    2 the road?

    3 A. It passes by Anto Papic's house, Nikola

    4 Omazic's house, and then it goes on toward the main

    5 road.

    6 Q. So is there a junction leading to your house

    7 from that road?

    8 A. Yes, it connects with that road. It's our

    9 main road.

    10 Q. Would you agree with me that this is not a

    11 crossroads, because all of us are wrong, but that this

    12 is rather a road from which another road turns toward

    13 your house?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President. I have

    16 no further questions.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel Susak.

    18 I have a question. I have a question for

    19 you, Mr. Bralo, relating to the way you spent the 16th

    20 of April, '93, and the account you gave us in response

    21 to a question put to you by Counsel Susak.

    22 Now, I understand from your testimony that

    23 you were 39 years old; you were wearing a sort of

    24 military uniform, UNPROFOR, some sort of uniform; you

    25 were carrying a rifle, an M48; and you spent the whole

  70. 1day moving between your house, the house of Anto Papic,

    2 and the stable of Anto Papic, and in between, you fed

    3 pigs and the poultry. Now, this is on a day when

    4 something --

    5 A. Yes.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: -- let's say fighting

    7 happened, a lot of fighting, firing, houses being

    8 burned, and as I say, a lot of firing, starting at

    9 about 5.20. And so you moved around with a rifle,

    10 feeding pigs and poultry. So it's -- I mean, I'm

    11 mystified. It seems so implausible. Could you give us

    12 a more detailed account of what you did on the 16th of

    13 April, '93?

    14 A. On the 16th of April, 1993, I was at home, as

    15 I said. We went to the stable of Anto Papic, came

    16 back. The second time I came home I took my rifle

    17 again, and we went to Anto Papic's stable because it

    18 was the safest there. There was a thick stone wall.

    19 Marija Papic, who came up to my house, asked

    20 me and Franjo Kovac to go -- because her house is next

    21 to the road, so she asked either me or Franjo to come,

    22 and since both of us went to Marija's house, we fed her

    23 livestock and then we came back. It was -- we had to

    24 cross some meadows and the wood to get there.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: But look, I mean, Ahmici is a

  71. 1small village. I understand it has about 500, 600

    2 inhabitants. It's not New York or Tokyo. So you are

    3 in a small area, you hear a lot of firing, people

    4 shooting, even with heavy -- I mean, with guns and an

    5 anti-aircraft gun, and so on, and you go around, you

    6 don't ask yourself what is happening, you don't try to

    7 go to see where the people are being killed, wounded.

    8 You remain in your area, and you feed the poultry, the

    9 poultry, the pigs, and you have a chat with your

    10 neighbours?

    11 A. Well, who would go up on the road when there

    12 was gunfire there? Who would have the heart to go out

    13 into the open and be shot by a bullet or hit by a shell

    14 or something like that?

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: But then why were you

    16 carrying a weapon? If you wanted simply to hide or to

    17 get shelter, you could remain in your house the whole

    18 day without carrying a gun.

    19 A. There were women there, quite a lot of women,

    20 children, elderly people. So to stop them from being

    21 worried, I carried my gun.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    23 Thank you, Mr. Bralo. Thank you for

    24 testifying. You may now be released.

    25 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

  72. 1(The witness withdrew)

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Before we adjourn, yes, I

    3 should ask a question of the Prosecutor.

    4 Counsel Susak produced this document signed

    5 by Mr. Terrier, and I am not clear. Well, I think you

    6 are not tendering this in evidence, so it should be

    7 returned to you.

    8 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I said that I

    9 wished to tender all the documents that were discussed

    10 today into evidence. After I completed my examination

    11 in chief, I proposed that all these documents,

    12 including the one in question, should be entered into

    13 evidence.

    14 THE REGISTRAR: D38/4.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Terrier, any objection?

    16 MR. TERRIER: No objection, Mr. President.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: All right, thank you. All

    18 right, it is admitted into evidence.

    19 Before we adjourn, let me make a few points.

    20 First of all, we will now reconvene on the

    21 5th of July for three weeks. We have already received

    22 from Counsel Susak a list of witnesses, two witnesses

    23 you intend to call when we reconvene, and I hope that

    24 Counsel Pavkovic as well will hand over a list of

    25 witnesses.

  73. 1I should also say that on the 12th of July,

    2 we will hear a Court witness, the anthropologist we

    3 have called. She will be coming here to testify on the

    4 12th of July, which I think is a Monday, so therefore

    5 there will be a sort of interruption in the flow of

    6 Defence witnesses. But this is the only day when she

    7 can come and stand, so we will see whether we can hear

    8 her either on the 12th or the 13th.

    9 Then I would like to clarify one point which

    10 I think is not very clear from the transcript.

    11 The ruling we made this morning about the

    12 accused testifying, I mentioned final statements by the

    13 accused, but I was referring, of course, -- I hope this

    14 was clear -- to the Nuremberg experience where these

    15 statements were made.

    16 In our case, we want to confine ourselves to

    17 hearing the accused as witnesses if they decide to

    18 testify in court at the end of the Defence case and, if

    19 need be, at the stage of rejoinder, but we don't intend

    20 to give them the opportunity to make a final statement

    21 at the end of the whole trial. We don't think it is

    22 appropriate, because they will, in any case, have an

    23 opportunity to testify twice; first of all, at the end

    24 of the Defence case, and then, if you wish to do so, at

    25 the stage of rejoinder.

  74. 1I wanted to make this clear because, as I

    2 say, I think it is not clear from the transcript and

    3 probably I was not clear enough this morning.

    4 Are there any matters to be discussed before

    5 we adjourn? Mr. Terrier?

    6 MR. TERRIER: Yes, Mr. President, a very

    7 short question regarding the anthropologist that you

    8 mentioned and who is to testify on the 12th of July.

    9 This was a witness for the Prosecution formerly. Do

    10 you think that it will be possible for the Prosecution

    11 to see her, to meet her before her testimony, or do you

    12 think that would not be advisable?

    13 (Trial Chamber confers)

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Since she's a Court witness,

    15 we think that it is more appropriate for you not to

    16 meet her. Also as far as the examination and

    17 re-examination is concerned, we will ask questions, the

    18 Court will ask questions. Then it will be your turn,

    19 and then, in the end, the Defence. So the normal

    20 proceedings when we are dealing with a Court witness,

    21 not with a witness called by one of the two parties.

    22 Is it clear?

    23 We will, in a way, start with a sort of

    24 examination in chief, then the Prosecutor, and then

    25 Defence counsel.

  75. 1Any other questions? Any matters? Defence

    2 counsel want to raise any matters? No. All right.

    3 Well, then thank you, and we'll adjourn now

    4 until the 5th of July at 9.00.

    5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

    6 11.50 a.m., to be reconvened on

    7 Monday, the 5th day of July, 1999,

    8 at 9.00 a.m.