Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 672

1 Tuesday, 29 February 2000

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be

6 seated. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Good

7 morning to the technicians, the interpreters. Good

8 morning to the members of the Prosecution, the members

9 of the Defence, and all other persons present in the

10 courtroom.

11 Mr. Registrar, will you please call the

12 case.

13 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes. Good

14 morning, Mr. President. Case number IT-98-30-T. The

15 Prosecutor versus Miroslav Kvocka, Milojica Kos, Mladjo

16 Radic, and Zoran Zigic.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

18 very much.

19 I see we have some different members of the

20 Prosecution team, so could we have the appearances,

21 Mr. Niemann.

22 MR. NIEMANN: Good morning, Your Honours.

23 Yes. My name is Niemann, and I appear with my

24 colleagues, Ms. Hollis, Mr. Keegan, and

25 Mr. Waidyaratnet, and Ms. Reynders is assisting the

Page 673

1 Prosecution. Thank you, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

3 very much, Mr. Niemann.

4 I turn now to the Defence. We have the same

5 appearances as yesterday, but could you introduce

6 yourself nevertheless, please? Mr. Simic.

7 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Good morning,

8 Your Honours. With me this morning is Mr. Branko Lukic

9 as co-counsel. Thank you.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

11 Mr. Nikolic.

12 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Good morning,

13 Your Honours. As yesterday, with me is Mrs. Jelena

14 Nikolic and Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

16 very much.

17 Mr. Fila.

18 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your

19 Honours. The Defence of Mr. Radic is represented by

20 Mr. Toma Fila and Zoran Jovanovic.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Tosic.

22 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning,

23 Your Honours. The Defence of Zoran Zigic, as

24 previously, is represented by Simo Tosic as lead

25 counsel and Slobodan Stojanovic, an attorney from

Page 674

1 Belgrade, as co-counsel.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

3 very much.

4 For today, it is envisaged that Mr. Kvocka

5 should begin his testimony. So I give the floor to

6 Mr. Simic.

7 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Good morning,

8 Your Honours.

9 Before we begin with the

10 examination-in-chief, on behalf of the entire Defence

11 team, without analysing the opening statement of

12 Mr. Niemann, I should like to express a protest.

13 Mr. Niemann yesterday, in line 23, 24, page

14 5, declared that the Republika Srpska is a puppet

15 entity. I must say that both in Dayton, and later in

16 Paris, the Dayton Peace Agreement was signed in which

17 the Republika Srpska is provided for as an entity, and

18 today Bosnia-Herzegovina is functioning as a state of

19 two equal entities, the Federation and the Republika

20 Srpska.

21 I'm sure that Mr. Niemann didn't mean his

22 statement to be interpreted in the way we understood

23 it. Let us consider it a rhetorical error rather than

24 a position which would contest something that is

25 verified by the International Community, because the

Page 675

1 greatest powers of the world are the granters of the

2 Dayton Agreement. Through the functioning of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina and two equal entities, the desire

4 is to ensure peace and stability. And we felt it

5 necessary to draw attention to what we hope is an error

6 in linguistics.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

8 Mr. Niemann, do you wish to react, or shall we close

9 the incident?

10 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, my comments were

11 contemporaneous with the events, and I don't withdraw

12 them, having regard to those times.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think it

14 is not necessary to continue the discussion on this

15 case because, after all, we are not here to have a

16 discussion on that issue. We will close the incident,

17 and we will begin with the testimony of Mr. Kvocka.

18 Therefore, Mr. Simic, you have the floor for

19 that.

20 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I quite agree,

21 Your Honour. Thank you.

22 I should now like to call Mr. Kvocka to

23 testify before this Tribunal, because we feel that his

24 testimony can contribute significantly to the

25 establishment of truth and to justice being served.

Page 676

1 [The accused Kvocka takes the stand]

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Kvocka,

3 can you hear me?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

5 Honours.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You're

7 going to read the solemn declaration that the usher

8 will hand to you, Mr. Kvocka, please.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

10 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

11 and nothing but the truth.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be

15 seated, Mr. Kvocka.

16 If you don't mind, Mr. Simic, before

17 beginning this testimony. I should like to remind you,

18 Mr. Kvocka, that you have just taken a solemn

19 declaration saying that you will tell the truth, the

20 whole truth. Therefore, you now enjoy the status of a

21 witness. You are the accused, but now you are the

22 witness, and therefore I wish to remind you that you

23 are under the same obligations and duties as other

24 witnesses.

25 I should also like to remind you, because a

Page 677

1 certain confusion could occur, you come from a system

2 in which the accused has the right to lie, to put it

3 that way; however, I remind you that here you do not

4 have that right. You are obliged to tell the truth,

5 and you are under that obligation. So now you can

6 testify, after I have reminded you of that obligation.

7 Mr. Simic, it is now your turn to examine

8 your witness.

9 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your

10 Honour.

11 Examined by Mr. Simic:

12 Q. Mr. Kvocka, the President has reminded you

13 that you have to speak the truth. Let me also tell you

14 that I am fully aware of the fact that some time has

15 gone by since the events in question, that you have in

16 the meantime reviewed the evidence produced by the

17 Prosecution, and today you should tell us the things

18 you know, perhaps things that you have heard, and at

19 the same time to provide sources of information without

20 entering into any polemics with the evidence produced

21 by the Prosecutor.

22 You tell us what you know and what you are

23 familiar with. Do you understand?

24 A. Yes. I shall do my best to act as you advise

25 me.

Page 678

1 Q. Mr. Kvocka, when were you born?

2 A. I was born on January the 1st, 1957.

3 Q. And where were you born?

4 A. In the village of Krivaja, Prijedor

5 municipality.

6 Q. That close to the hamlet of Omarska?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you tell us the names of your parents?

9 A. My father's name was Dragomir and my mother's

10 Zdravka.

11 Q. What were they by occupation?

12 A. My father was a worker, baker by occupation,

13 by trade.

14 Q. Where did he work?

15 A. He worked in a bakery.

16 Q. In view of the ethnic composition of the

17 Prijedor municipality, was that bakery multi-ethnic?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did your father have any problems in that

20 respect?

21 A. Absolutely none.

22 Q. What about your mother?

23 A. My mother was a housewife.

24 Q. I apologise for going too fast. How many

25 children did your parents have?

Page 679

1 A. My parents had five children.

2 Q. How many boys? How many girls?

3 A. There were three brothers and two sisters.

4 Q. Did you go to school in the area of

5 Prijedor?

6 A. Most of us except for me, or partially. I

7 partially was educated in the area of Prijedor and

8 partially further, beyond.

9 Q. Upon the completion of your education, did

10 you get married? Who did you marry?

11 A. I married Mrs. Jasminka Crnalic from

12 Prijedor.

13 Q. What is she by ethnicity?

14 A. She is Muslim.

15 Q. What were the names of your sisters?

16 A. Dragojla and Zorana.

17 Q. What is the name of Zorana's husband?

18 A. My sister Zorana's husband is called Halil

19 Crnalic.

20 Q. What is he by ethnicity?

21 A. A Muslim.

22 Q. Where are they living today?

23 A. They are living in the United States of

24 America.

25 Q. Why?

Page 680

1 A. They are living there because in the course

2 of these most unfortunate events that occurred in the

3 former Yugoslavia, they had to flee from the area of

4 Herzegovina where they used to live before that.

5 Q. When did that happen?

6 A. That happened shortly after the war broke out

7 in 1993.

8 Q. So that means they've been living in the

9 United States for some seven years?

10 A. Yes. Exactly.

11 Q. Did your father die in the meantime?

12 A. Yes, he did.

13 Q. After your sister and her children left to

14 the United States, did he have occasion to see them

15 again?

16 A. No. We never saw one another again.

17 Q. Your mother never saw her daughter again

18 either?

19 A. No, she did not either.

20 Q. Does your sister find this hard?

21 A. Yes. She finds it very hard.

22 Q. And what about your mother?

23 A. Well, her situation is perhaps the worst.

24 She finds it most difficult.

25 Q. And your sister Dragolja, you mentioned her

Page 681

1 too.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Whom did she marry?

4 A. She was also married to a Muslim.

5 Q. And his name?

6 A. For a moment I have forgotten because they

7 divorced several years before the war, but I will

8 remember perhaps.

9 Q. Tell me, please, she has a child, doesn't

10 she?

11 A. Yes. She has a grown-up girl.

12 Q. Were contacts broken off between the child

13 and her father during the war?

14 A. No.

15 Q. When did you start going out with your wife?

16 Was there any resistance in your family against this

17 relationship?

18 A. In my family there was absolutely no

19 resistance or reaction.

20 Q. Was there any opposition or negative

21 reactions on the part of your wife's family?

22 A. When we started dating and going out there

23 was a certain measure of opposition on the part of the

24 parents of my wife.

25 Q. Why?

Page 682

1 A. My wife's parents come from a very old

2 conservative Prijedor family who attached great

3 importance to religious principles.

4 Q. Were these problems overcome?

5 A. After we got married, me and Jasminka, those

6 problems disappeared altogether. I was accepted by her

7 family more or less as an equal member of the family.

8 Q. Have you had children?

9 A. Yes, two.

10 Q. What sex?

11 A. A girl and then a boy.

12 Q. What is the name of your daughter?

13 A. My daughter's name is Sanela.

14 Q. Mr. Kvocka, is that a Muslim name?

15 A. Yes. Absolutely a purely Muslim name.

16 Q. You come from Omarska, don't you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was Omarska virtually a hundred per cent

19 populated by Serbs?

20 A. Yes, almost a hundred per cent, with two or

21 three families belonging to other ethnic groups only.

22 Q. In spite of that situation, you gave your

23 first child a Muslim name. Was that unusual?

24 A. One could say it was unusual, but it was our

25 decision. Actually, my wife and I discussed what name

Page 683

1 we would give our child, and my daughter [sic] wanted a

2 Serb name, Mirjana, which she liked particularly, but I

3 liked the name Sanela, and she conceded to me. But

4 then our agreement was that when the second child came,

5 my wife would choose the name for it.

6 Q. You had a son later on. What is his name?

7 A. Sinisa.

8 Q. Is that a Serbian name?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you get on well in your marriage with

11 your wife?

12 A. Yes. There were absolutely no problems.

13 Q. Mr. Kvocka, I'm well aware of the troublesome

14 period that you have lived through and you're still

15 going through. Throughout this time, did you have the

16 support of your wife?

17 A. Absolutely, yes. My wife supported me in

18 every sense of the word. Especially now I find that

19 support most encouraging, and it is very pronounced on

20 her part.

21 Q. Mr. Kvocka, in view of what you have been

22 through and are going through now, you were often a

23 subject in the media. Is it true that your wife, on

24 one occasion and linked to your status at present, did

25 she say that if she were to get married again a hundred

Page 684

1 times, she would marry Miroslav Kvocka again?

2 A. Yes. This did happen, particularly on one

3 occasion when there was more or less an offensive by

4 the media against me when the indictment was

5 published. She told a foreign journalist, a foreign

6 reporter, that each and every time, if she were to

7 marry again, she would marry Miroslav Kvocka, and I am

8 most grateful to her for this. And as you have

9 mentioned the media, maybe they will report this, and I

10 have no other opportunity to thank her except in this

11 way.

12 Q. Of course we will be discussing Omarska

13 separately later on, but in the context of this

14 subject, I should like to ask you how many brothers

15 your sister had. I'm sorry, your wife. How many

16 brothers did she have, your wife?

17 A. My wife had a total of five brothers, but one

18 brother, a few years prior to the war, died.

19 Q. Let me now ask you a question regarding the

20 location of your wife's brothers today?

21 A. Out of the four remaining brothers, three

22 brothers are now in the United States of America.

23 Q. And the fourth?

24 A. And the fourth is in Sanski Most, which is

25 part of the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 685

1 Q. How old is your mother-in-law?

2 A. I think she's close to 80. I'm not quite

3 sure.

4 Q. Where is she today?

5 A. She is also in America.

6 Q. Did they all have to leave as a consequence

7 of the war?

8 A. Yes. I would put it that way. The war and

9 the consequences, the poverty, everything that followed

10 resulted in their having to leave.

11 Q. And could we also say the insecurity?

12 A. Yes, indeed. No one at the time could

13 guarantee security 100 per cent.

14 Q. When they left, did they leave some

15 considerable property behind?

16 A. Yes, they left everything they had.

17 Q. Has your wife seen her mother ever since she

18 left to go to the States?

19 A. No.

20 Q. In view of her age, the age of your

21 mother-in-law, is it more or less certain that she will

22 die without seeing her daughter and her grandchildren

23 again?

24 A. That is highly probable, in view of her age

25 and ill-health.

Page 686

1 Q. Would you agree with me that that is

2 terrible?

3 A. For our conditions and mentality and

4 traditions, there is nothing worse than that.

5 Q. Your wife and children, are they suffering as

6 a result of this?

7 A. Of course they are, in various ways. Of

8 course, it is very difficult to describe in words how

9 grandchildren suffer because their grandmother is away,

10 and vice versa, and all the other things that this

11 entails.

12 Q. You were working in the police.

13 A. Yes, throughout my working lifetime.

14 Q. In view of the organisation of the police, it

15 was organised on the basis of the so-called ethnic

16 parity principle. Did you have colleagues who were

17 Muslims and Croats?

18 A. Yes, there were colleagues belonging to both

19 ethnic groups.

20 Q. And what were your relationships with them?

21 A. Normal relationships, as among colleagues.

22 Q. Did you have friends among them?

23 A. Very close friends among my colleagues,

24 policemen of Muslim ethnicity.

25 Q. For instance?

Page 687

1 A. Just now, the names that come to mind are

2 those who worked very closely with me, though there

3 were others working further away, but those working

4 with me were in Omarska: Edin Besic, Hamdija Arifagic,

5 Fikret Harambasic, Emir Karabasic, and probably

6 others.

7 Q. These were your colleagues and friends;

8 right?

9 A. Yes. As I said, they were my friends and

10 also colleagues from work, and also we were friends

11 away from work.

12 Q. Mr. Kvocka, in your family, in your

13 upbringing, were you ever an extreme nationalist?

14 A. No, absolutely not. I never agreed with

15 that, nor did I pay very much attention to those

16 matters.

17 Q. Taking into account your life, I'm going to

18 show you an exhibit that is a special exhibit.

19 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] This is Exhibit

20 P14, Your Honours. This is a special type of exhibit

21 whose contents are not part of the evidence, but rather

22 it refers to a reaction or a response of Mr. Kvocka in

23 a particular situation.

24 Q. Mr. Kvocka --

25 A. Yes, sir.

Page 688

1 Q. -- do you recognise the book that is in your

2 hands now?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What is it?

5 A. This is a Muslim religious book which is

6 called the Koran.

7 Q. What does it mean, in essence?

8 A. I believe that this is a basic book of

9 Islamic religion, something similar to the Holy Bible

10 that the Christians use, that is, the Orthodox.

11 Q. How do you know this book?

12 A. I came into possession of this book while I

13 worked in Omarska, and I can describe how this came

14 about.

15 Q. Go ahead.

16 A. One of the detainees, a middle-aged man, was

17 on the pista, and at one point, he sort of called me

18 somewhat surreptitiously, and when I approached, he

19 pulled out the book from his pocket and asked me if I

20 could take it and give it to my wife or her parents,

21 because he said that he knew them and that when

22 everything was over, the investigation that he assumed

23 that was going to take place, that they would have it

24 in safekeeping and that he would pick it up from them

25 once everything was over.

Page 689

1 Q. Taking into account the extreme views that

2 prevailed at the time, could this book have been a

3 source of trouble for that particular detainee?

4 A. Yes, I believe that it could have. Had it

5 been accidentally discovered by someone with extreme

6 views, had this book been found on this man, it could

7 have been a source of great trouble for this man. For

8 a guard or anybody else who was found in possession of

9 this book, in those times, this book would have been

10 interpreted very badly. Immediately, this person would

11 have been linked to the ideas promulgated in the book,

12 and so on. In other words, he could have suffered

13 consequences just by the fact of having possessed this

14 book.

15 Q. Could you have had problems, or could you

16 have expected some negative response for what you did?

17 A. In a nutshell, I could have fared the same

18 way that he could have fared.

19 Q. By this act, did this person show a kind of

20 confidence towards you?

21 A. This is how I can interpret it. Since he

22 chose me, to hand it over to me, it means that he was

23 not afraid of me.

24 Q. What did you do with this book?

25 A. I left the book with my wife, and it has been

Page 690

1 in her possession until now.

2 Q. Mr. Kvocka, you said that you came from a

3 mixed marriage. In those ugly times, what was the

4 attitude towards mixed marriages in general?

5 A. Sometime, I think it was as early as 1991,

6 the opinions on mixed marriages deteriorated rapidly.

7 So there were very negative attitudes which were

8 publicly expressed by a number of people, including

9 some very prominent ones.

10 Q. Do you know of a statement by one of the

11 founders of the HDZ, one of the nationalist parties in

12 the area, who later became the President of Croatia,

13 the late Franjo Tudjman, that he was happy that his

14 wife was neither an ethnic Serb or a Jew?

15 A. Yes. The media reported this to the public

16 very widely, that is, this position of President

17 Tudjman, that is, that expression of his views.

18 Q. Was this the position only of the Croatian

19 leader, or was this opinion expressed in other

20 communities as well?

21 A. It was expressed among others as well. I

22 remember, I read Dzemaludin Latic's views, who was one

23 of the leaders of the SDA party, the Muslim party, from

24 the founding, he said that mixed marriages were an

25 unnatural thing, that it was an unnatural phenomenon,

Page 691

1 that it should stop, that it was just simply not

2 natural. Also, certain Croatian priests referred to it

3 as an unnatural thing, that is how they expressed it.

4 Q. Can you tell me, was this position shared by

5 some Serbian leaders?

6 A. Absolutely. You could read about it in the

7 media. In one of the previous Status Conferences, a

8 paragraph from the annex was adopted, the one offered

9 by the Prosecution, this is from the judicial notice,

10 and I think that the view expressed there was that

11 children from the mixed marriages should be used for

12 soap making.

13 Q. I think that the paragraph you were referring

14 to is 344.

15 A. Yes. I think you may be right.

16 Q. This is from the Prosecution's submission of

17 19 January, and it is part of the adjudicated facts in

18 the case.

19 However, you survived and you maintain your

20 marriage.

21 A. As far as the relationship between my wife

22 and myself, our respective families, there was no

23 response of any kind to that.

24 Q. Have views of certain individuals changed

25 with respect to your family? I will mention a case, a

Page 692

1 case from Omarska.

2 We all know that a person by the name of

3 Crnalic was killed in Omarska. He was the brother of a

4 well-known handball player. Is it true that his

5 brother, the handball player, and his sister have,

6 regardless of that fact, actually maintained good

7 relations with your family regardless of this? That

8 they continued to visit you regularly while you were

9 still free and that they continued to visit your wife

10 to date?

11 A. Yes. That is absolutely true there is a man

12 named Crnalic, whose nickname is Roga. He was a

13 well-known handball player. He continued to visit with

14 my family and myself throughout these tragic events and

15 continued to do so even after my arrest. His sister

16 later has moved out of Prijedor, but she continues to

17 come and visit.

18 Q. And their brother was killed in Omarska?

19 A. Yes. He was killed at Omarska.

20 Q. In the context of your attitude towards these

21 other ethnic groups, throughout this period were you

22 and your wife the best man and maid of honour to

23 another mixed marriage?

24 A. Yes. I think this took place in 1994. I

25 believe it could have been in May. I don't know the

Page 693

1 exact date, but this was on the occasion when we were

2 witnesses, that is, the best man and maid of honour, to

3 another mixed marriage.

4 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] This, Your

5 Honours, is Exhibit DP10.

6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] I grant you

7 this opportunity to say that this exhibit will have the

8 number D2, and the previous one D1/1, and this is D2.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just a

10 moment. I apologise for interrupting you. Could you

11 repeat, please, what you just said? We have some

12 documents with certain numbers attached. Could you

13 give us the exact correspondence between the documents

14 that we have here on the numbers?

15 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] I'm afraid I

16 don't have the exhibits, Mr. President, that you have.

17 The first will be D1/1 and this exhibit will be D2/1.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

19 very much.

20 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, a

21 certain confusion may have arisen from the fact that we

22 have numbered our own exhibits, and we were given an

23 explanation from the registrar that he was going to

24 number and register. So the number that I just called

25 was the number which we used in our reference systems.

Page 694

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me.

2 Ms. Hollis, you wish to intervene?

3 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour. Could we take

4 this occasion to ask that a certain procedure be set

5 regarding these exhibits and that we be allowed to look

6 at the exhibit before it's provided to the witness so

7 that we know what exhibit it is that they're being

8 provided?

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Is it

10 possible to give a copy of these documents to the

11 Prosecutor? In the case of the documents we have here

12 at the bench, I don't know whether the Prosecutor has

13 the same photocopies as we do, Ms. Hollis.

14 MS. HOLLIS: I have copies, but in light of

15 the uncertainty of the numbers, if they would show us

16 the exhibit, we could see which of our copies it is

17 that they're talking about. We would like also like to

18 look at this book because we've never seen that.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher,

20 could you please assist?

21 Mr. Simic, perhaps it would be appropriate to

22 place the exhibits on the ELMO so that we can see what

23 exhibit we are dealing with. Could that be done?

24 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

25 first of all, let me say that we have provided all

Page 695

1 exhibits to the Prosecution, that is, all the exhibits

2 that we're going to present today and perhaps the next

3 couple of days. They are all numbered and I will call

4 each of these numbers.

5 There is a technical possibility to follow

6 this sequence. We can also put the exhibits on the

7 ELMO, but we are facing technical problems. I am using

8 the exhibits in the Serbian language, and we can

9 provide copies of them to the usher and he can then use

10 them as he wants.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

12 it is important that we are all looking at the same

13 document. So I suggest that you place the document

14 under the ELMO, and then we can see whether it

15 corresponds to what we have.

16 So, Mr. Usher, will you please place under

17 the ELMO this exhibit.

18 Also, there's another reason. It is

19 important for the public, who is following the

20 proceedings, to be able to see the documents on the

21 monitor as well.

22 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your

23 Honours. I think we have squared things now.

24 Q. Mr. Kvocka, who were these --

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

Page 696

1 I apologise for interrupting you. Perhaps I'm going to

2 ask the technical booth to give us an overview of the

3 document so that we can see the number that the

4 document bears. Is there a number on this document,

5 please? Can it be focused in such a way that we can

6 see the whole document with the number? Mr. Usher.

7 Personally, I don't know which document this

8 corresponds to in the pile that I have in front of me.

9 So I understand the concerns of the Prosecution.

10 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in

11 the top-right corner --

12 MR. LUKIC: Excuse me for interrupting.

13 There is a number 10 on this document circled in all

14 piles, the piles for Judges and the piles for the

15 Prosecution.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I

17 have it now. But I do not see on the document that you

18 have placed on the ELMO the number 10. So could you

19 put the number on the document which you are placing on

20 the ELMO? In that case, we can see immediately which

21 document we are dealing with and we can match it up

22 against what we have. So I think the objection of

23 Ms. Hollis is quite correct, because we have to know

24 and we must all know which document we are dealing

25 with.

Page 697

1 So the document on the ELMO is rather hard to

2 identify for us because it doesn't carry the number

3 10. If it has number 10 on the right-hand corner, then

4 it is very easy to find it quickly.

5 So perhaps we could now have a break and

6 please deal with this question during the break, and we

7 will resume after 20 minutes.

8 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your

9 Honour.

10 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I hope that

13 we now have a code of communication between us all and

14 that we can continue with our deliberations.

15 Counsel Simic, please continue.

16 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your

17 Honours.

18 We have tendered the document, but we can't

19 see it on the monitor, on the screen, as yet. Thank

20 you.

21 Q. Mr. Kvocka, may we continue?

22 A. Yes, we may. I'm ready.

23 Q. You have in front of you a copy of this

24 document in English, but as you're well-acquainted with

25 it, you can speak without the document, I'm sure.

Page 698

1 A. Yes, I can.

2 Q. On what date did you and your wife testify,

3 or were best man and maid of honour to a Muslim and a

4 Serb in their marriage ceremony?

5 A. This took place in May 1994, and I can see

6 that it was exactly on the 12th of May, according to

7 this document.

8 Q. What was the husband's name?

9 A. The husband's name, my kum, was Hasan

10 Oklopcic.

11 Q. And the lady to whom he was married on the

12 occasion?

13 A. Her name was Ljiljana Jesic.

14 Q. Mr. Kvocka, from the regions we come from,

15 the institution of witness at a marriage ceremony, by

16 tradition, is a very important event, is it not?

17 A. [No audible response]

18 Q. According to custom, what term do we use to

19 refer to these witnesses that witness the marriage

20 between two people?

21 A. Well, in our country, in jargon, and

22 generally the term used is the kum.

23 Q. By becoming a kum and setting up the whole

24 kum relationship within a family, and by being witness

25 to a marriage ceremony, what relationships are

Page 699

1 established between the people getting married and the

2 people who serve as their kum?

3 A. Well, the relationships are very intimate,

4 very close, ones of friendship, and the kum is almost

5 equivalent, and in fact is equivalent to a brother.

6 That is how close the relationship is.

7 Q. Mr. Kvocka, by tradition, in the areas from

8 which all of us come, is it customary for the kums and

9 their children to enter into marriage?

10 A. Absolutely not. That is absolutely

11 impossible by virtue of custom and tradition, and I do

12 not know of any such cases, although there is nothing

13 to stop them actually from doing so by law. But

14 respecting the traditions and this relationship of kum,

15 this is absolutely not possible.

16 Q. When the marriage ceremony is completed, is

17 there any custom to celebrate the event? Is that what

18 happens?

19 A. Yes, of course, that's what happens every

20 time, and it is customary that there is a wedding

21 ceremony and a wedding lunch. In times of peace, this

22 is usually a very large wedding ceremony and lunch with

23 lots of guests attending.

24 Q. Is the wedding ceremony and lunch a public

25 manifestation?

Page 700

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. On the occasion, on this particular occasion,

3 in view of your financial possibilities, did you have a

4 wedding celebration of that kind?

5 A. Yes, we did.

6 Q. Where was it held?

7 A. We went to my flat, which is located in the

8 Pecani settlement of Prijedor, and with some of our

9 close friends and next-door neighbours and neighbours,

10 we had a luncheon. We sat around and talked and

11 generally celebrated the event.

12 Q. After that, did you continue to behave as

13 befits a kum?

14 A. Yes, absolutely so. We had an intensive

15 friendship going on. We would go swimming, to the

16 beach, by the river bank in the summer. We would help

17 each other, in view of the fact that there was no ready

18 money to be had and it was very difficult to make a

19 living.

20 Q. Did you help your kum, Mr. Oklopcic?

21 A. Yes. I tried to do so whenever the occasion

22 arose.

23 Q. How did you do this?

24 A. Well, one way was that I helped him find a

25 job, because he's an electrician by profession, and I

Page 701

1 did my best to find him a job, which lasted several

2 months.

3 Q. So did he work, and who did he work for?

4 A. Yes. At my insistence and request, he worked

5 with a well-known private entrepreneur, Vila Ranko, who

6 was building a new facility, a printing press, in fact,

7 and I called him up and asked him to employ my kum, to

8 give my kum a job. He accepted this, although he

9 didn't do so very readily because he was afraid of

10 criticism, he was afraid of the extremists, and it was

11 a little difficult for him to give this man a job. But

12 I said that I would come to work with my kum, so that

13 this would help me and help my kum. So he agreed in

14 the end, and that's what we did.

15 Q. At the job which was economically beneficial,

16 were any other workers engaged?

17 A. Yes. Several days later, another Muslim

18 joined us -- his surname was Gecevic, I forget his name

19 -- so that the three of us did the work.

20 Q. And was he an electrician as well?

21 A. Yes, Gecevic is an electrician by

22 profession.

23 Q. And you had the role of helping them and

24 covering them in their job?

25 A. Well, I'm a policeman, yes. I had nothing to

Page 702

1 do with the profession of electrician and the

2 electrical trade, but I was there to see that

3 everything went okay.

4 Q. After the work was completed and the job had

5 been done, would you go to cafes where people could see

6 you out with your kum?

7 A. Yes, we did, because usually when your job is

8 over, at the end of a day, we would go and have a

9 drink, somewhere on our route home, and we used to do

10 this too. We would mostly go to a cafe which was

11 located in the marketplace at Prijedor.

12 Q. What was the proprietor's name of that cafe?

13 A. The owner was called Nedzo, his name was

14 Nedzo, and I forget his surname.

15 Q. The individual who was the proprietor of the

16 cafe, did his brother -- was his brother killed in the

17 war?

18 A. Yes. That was common knowledge. On the door

19 to the cafe, he would have the death certificate or

20 obituary which testified to the death of his brother.

21 Q. Did this Mr. Nedzo have any criticisms to

22 make, any objections to the fact that your kum and the

23 other man, Gecevic, frequented his cafe?

24 A. Well, he did complain later on and said that

25 he had a lot of complaints and pressure from his other

Page 703

1 guests who asked him how could he allow Muslims to sit

2 in his cafe, and how could he allow Kvocka to bring

3 Muslims to his cafe, whereas the Muslims had killed his

4 brother a short while ago. So there was this difficult

5 position for him, because he had this pressure and

6 problems on the one side from other people.

7 Q. Did you have any complaints, objections,

8 pressure exerted on you?

9 A. Well, at that time -- you mean during the

10 time I was in the cafe? Well, no, not me personally.

11 Not directly.

12 Q. May I ask you where your kums are now?

13 A. My kums are now also in the United States of

14 America. They went there quite recently. Before that

15 they had been in Germany.

16 Q. Do you still maintain contacts with them?

17 A. Yes, I do. Not as frequently, of course, in

18 view of the situation, but last summer my kuma came to

19 visit her relations in Prijedor and visited my family

20 on that occasion too.

21 Q. Did she bring your children presents?

22 A. Yes, she did.

23 Q. Did she express gratitude to you for your

24 humane act and conduct in those difficult times?

25 A. Yes, she did. They talked about the

Page 704

1 situation, and she thanked me for everything that we

2 had done for her and for all our help. Quite simply,

3 she could not understand what was going on in my

4 particular position and with me, and that's what she

5 told my wife.

6 Q. Mr. Kvocka, a moment ago you confirmed that

7 the brother and sister would pay friendly visits to

8 your house of the individual who was killed in

9 Omarska.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did your sister, whom, unfortunately, due to

12 a tragedy that occurred in the areas from which we all

13 come, after you were indicted and charged, did your

14 sister have any problems in the United States; that is

15 to say, her and her husband, did they have problems in

16 the USA?

17 A. Yes, they did. They also had pressure

18 brought against them, and they were mistreated. At one

19 point they even had to change the town in which they

20 lived in. They had to move somewhere else where they

21 would be less well known and where there were less

22 emigres. So they were doubly mistreated. First,

23 because they had a mixed marriage and, second, because

24 I was an alleged war criminal, as they said, and things

25 of that kind.

Page 705

1 Q. Mr. Kvocka, as we are standing here and

2 talking about your relationships towards other

3 religious communities, when you worked in the police

4 station at Tukovi, did you engage in any activity

5 connected to the village of Alisici?

6 A. Yes. There was a characteristic incident at

7 the end of July and the beginning of August, I think it

8 was. Anyway, it was in the summer, when my wife called

9 me up from home and asked me to come home urgently

10 because she needed some assistance.

11 Q. What kind of assistance did she need?

12 A. When I came home, she told me, my wife, that

13 is, told me that we had to go to the village of Alisici

14 if that was at all possible. It was halfway between

15 Prijedor and Sanski Most. That's where the village was

16 located. It was in this village that my wife's family

17 and my wife has close relations and other relations on

18 her mother's side. They had called her, in the

19 meantime, and told her that they were threatened there

20 by great danger and that we should do whatever we could

21 to save them.

22 Q. Did you undertake anything in that regard?

23 A. Yes, I did. We tried to do whatever we

24 could, although it was very difficult.

25 Q. Why?

Page 706

1 A. Well, because we had to find some oil, some

2 petrol that we didn't have, and a driver who would be

3 brave enough to make this undertaking, and to put them

4 all into a truck and load up some things that they

5 could take with them and bring them to Prijedor, to a

6 safer place.

7 Q. Did you succeed in this?

8 A. Yes, I did. I was able to find some petrol

9 and a driver within the space of several hours. His

10 name was Ignjatovic, his surname. We got into this

11 truck, that is, the driver got into this truck and my

12 wife and I took a passenger vehicle which was in

13 Tukovi, at our disposal. In fact, I abused my official

14 position there to avail myself of the vehicle. I went

15 to the village of Alisici in front and the truck

16 followed me behind.

17 Q. When you came to the village of Alisici, what

18 did you find there?

19 A. In the village itself, you could hear various

20 explosions and shooting, and close by you could see

21 some houses smoking. The houses were on fire. They

22 were ablaze. We came across my wife's family and their

23 close relations, all in their house. There were quite

24 a lot of them, not only the relations, and lots of

25 other people as well.

Page 707

1 Q. Were they neighbours?

2 A. Yes. They were the next-door neighbours

3 mostly. They were very much afraid. They didn't know

4 what to do. They saw that there was danger, and they

5 asked us to help them in any way we could, to save

6 them.

7 Our close relation's name was Merdzic. He

8 now lives somewhere in Germany.

9 Q. What did you do in that situation?

10 A. We loaded up some of the things that they had

11 already prepared up onto the truck, some clothes and

12 food, and there were all these people there, and all of

13 them got into a small truck, a two-tonne truck, which

14 is what we call it -- it means it can take a lot of two

15 tonnes -- and they sat in the truck underneath the

16 tarpaulin, and we went towards Prijedor. Once again,

17 my wife and I were in the car in front and they

18 followed us behind.

19 Q. Were there any explosions in the direction of

20 the truck? Were you safe on your route?

21 A. No. We were not safe at all. As I said a

22 moment ago, you could hear explosions all over the

23 place. There was shooting nearby and of all this

24 noise. We saw that the canopy -- the bullets had made

25 holes in the canopy, but nobody was injured because I

Page 708

1 told everybody to lie down and keep down low in the

2 truck. That is my police experience.

3 Q. So you arrived in Prijedor.

4 A. Yes. We arrived in Prijedor, but we had to

5 pass through one or two checkpoints on our way to

6 Prijedor.

7 Q. What kind of checkpoints were they?

8 A. Well, they were police checkpoints, as far as

9 I know. I don't know whether they were mixed army and

10 police checkpoints, but I noticed policemen at the

11 checkpoints.

12 Q. What ethnic group?

13 A. No, just Serbian. There were no Muslim

14 checkpoints at that time.

15 Q. Did you have any unpleasantness at those

16 checkpoints?

17 A. Well, there was always unpleasantness, from

18 simple provocations to the fact that they told me that

19 I was saving Turks or, "You're saving Turks." Again, I

20 apologise for that expression but that is the term they

21 used.

22 Q. Let us just clarify one point. The term

23 "Turks," was that a derogatory term for the members of

24 the Muslim community?

25 A. Yes. That's right. At that time, when

Page 709

1 anybody said "Turks," then that was the a derogatory

2 term that was used, because it is, of course, well

3 known that it is not a purely Turkish population for

4 them to actually be Turks, it was just derogatory.

5 Q. So when you overcame all the obstacles and

6 arrived in Prijedor, what did you do then?

7 A. We went to my mother-in-law's. She has a

8 house in the centre of Prijedor, and all these people

9 got out of the truck there and were accommodated

10 there.

11 Q. Did they remain in your mother-in-law's house

12 for any amount of time?

13 A. Yes, they did. They stayed there for quite a

14 long time. I can't remember exactly how long, but they

15 did stay for some considerable time.

16 Q. Did your wife help these people by bringing

17 food to her mother and food for the refugees as well?

18 A. Yes, she did. She did this practically every

19 day. She very often would prepare lunch for them in

20 our flat and then came to get them and bring them over

21 to lunch or she would take food over to them. But she

22 did this every day, either one or the other.

23 Q. We're going to go back to the question of

24 what you mentioned, namely, that there were a lot of

25 Muslims who were either relations or friends and that

Page 710

1 they came to your mother-in-law's house.

2 A. Yes. As I said a moment ago, my wife's

3 family is an old Muslim Prijedor family, highly

4 respected, and it was a large family with many

5 relations and, of course, many friends.

6 Q. One of the reasons for which the people went

7 to your mother-in-law's house, was it the fact that you

8 were her son-in-law and were a policeman? Was that one

9 of the reasons?

10 A. At that time, the motive -- they had even a

11 greater motive to come. They expressed their desire to

12 be there in her vicinity and, of course, near me as

13 well by the same token. So this was a reason, yes.

14 Q. Did this mean a certain amount of safety and

15 protection for them?

16 A. Well, that's how they felt. They felt safer,

17 more secure, better protected. That is the feeling

18 that they got.

19 Q. Mr. Kvocka, the other members of your family,

20 for example, your sister Dragojla, who works in the

21 court in Prijedor, in addition to the fact that she was

22 married to a Muslim, did she have a broad circle of

23 Muslim friends?

24 A. Yes, she did.

25 Q. And judging by some of the photographs in

Page 711

1 your home, your sister with the president of the court

2 of law, with Mr. Nedzad Salkic.

3 A. I know for sure that we still have those

4 photographs and many other photographs where you can

5 see how my sister had many friends, amongst them

6 Mr. Seric and some other Judges from Prijedor who were

7 Muslims.

8 Q. We'll go back to that question later on when

9 we talk to your wife, because your wife has all the

10 photographs in her possession. But tell me now,

11 Mr. Kvocka, were you a member of the League of

12 Communists?

13 A. Yes, I was.

14 Q. Was it customary that all policemen were

15 members of the legal of communists?

16 A. Yes, it was, almost 100 per cent. In the

17 former Yugoslavia, all policemen were members of the

18 League of Communists.

19 Q. In 1988, 1989, and 1990, it was becoming

20 evident that communism was in for a fall. In our

21 regions, new political ideas began to emerge. There

22 was a multi-party system burgeoning.

23 At that period, and we're talking about 1990

24 here, did you have any political affiliations or did

25 you give political support to any of the new political

Page 712

1 programmes that were emerging?

2 A. Well, at that time, when there were manifest

3 extreme nationalist ideas and parties, at that time, I

4 found myself in a situation where I was not able to opt

5 for any one of them. One particular party appeared and

6 they called it the Reformists party or the Ante

7 Markovic party and similar terms were used, and it was

8 a sort of moderate party with a moderate approach as

9 far as nationalism was concerned, and it propagated

10 economic prosperity and development, managerial,

11 entrepreneurial, and so on.

12 Q. Now that you've mentioned the nationalist

13 parties in the regions of the former Yugoslavia, could

14 you tell us which were the three nationalist options

15 that appeared in the course of 1990?

16 A. Well, the entire region was divided into

17 three basic nationalist parties. They were the SDS,

18 which was founded in Sarajevo; the SDA party, once

19 again, founded in Sarajevo; and the HDZ party, and all

20 the ethnic groups, according to their national

21 structure -- ethnic structure, would join these

22 different parties. I don't know what order they were

23 actually established in.

24 Q. Let us make things a bit clearer. The SDS,

25 whose party was that? What nationality did it belong

Page 713

1 to, what ethnic group?

2 A. Well, the abbreviation "SDS" stood for the

3 Serbian Democratic Party and was a party which was made

4 up of exclusively Serbs.

5 Q. What about the SDA party? Whose party was

6 that, and what does it mean?

7 A. The SDA party was the party of the Muslim

8 people founded by the Muslim extremist-oriented

9 individuals, and it was composed almost exclusively of

10 Muslims -- exclusively of Muslims, that is to say.

11 Q. Do you recall a legal problem which arose

12 with the foundation of the SDA party, difficulties over

13 the law whether nationalistic parties could be founded

14 and a decision of the law courts?

15 A. Well, it was common knowledge that when the

16 Party of Democratic Action was founded, it obtained

17 this name because it was supposed to be called the

18 Muslim Democratic Party. However, the laws of the

19 former Yugoslavia, which were still in force at the

20 time, did not permit nationalistic names in the title.

21 So that they had to alter the name from the Muslim

22 Party to the Party of Democratic Action, the SDA

23 party.

24 Q. And later on, did that law undergo any

25 change, any amendments?

Page 714

1 A. Well, later on, the title remained, but the

2 law was probably changed because the Serbian Democratic

3 Party could be registered under that name.

4 Q. What about the HDZ party?

5 A. The HDZ party is the Croatian Democratic

6 Union, and the founders and members were exclusively

7 Croats.

8 Q. All those parties, in their name, include the

9 attribute "democratic."

10 A. Yes, in the name.

11 Q. This democratic attribute, was that the

12 determinant, or was, rather, the nationalist attribute

13 what determined the characteristics of the party?

14 A. In my view, the national attribute was

15 decisive, and this attribute "democratic" was simply a

16 screen.

17 Q. A moment ago, you said that you supported the

18 political concepts of the party headed by Mr. Ante

19 Markovic, at the time, the prime minister. Did you do

20 anything to take a more active part in that party?

21 A. It was an idea that personally appealed to me

22 most. In my town, there were several people who shared

23 my views, and that circle of people mostly consisted of

24 private entrepreneurs, because they viewed the party as

25 offering a future for them. So we inquired, myself and

Page 715

1 a man called Timarac from Omarska, we went to Banja

2 Luka to inquire about this party, and we spoke to a man

3 called Miro Bjelic, I think his name was, who was the

4 secretary for the Banja Luka branch of that party, or

5 something like that. And so we inquired into the

6 programme, the concept of the party.

7 Q. What is the occupation of the mentioned

8 Timarac?

9 A. Timarac is a caterer.

10 Q. Does he have his own restaurant today?

11 A. Until my arrest, he worked as a caterer, he

12 had a cafe, and I think he still has it.

13 Q. I know a long time has gone by since these

14 events, but could you tell us the names of some of the

15 leaders of the party headed by Mr. Ante Markovic?

16 A. I shall try to recall the names of some of

17 the better-known figures.

18 For instance, from Banja Luka, a

19 world-renowned handball player, Abaz Arslanagic, was

20 interested in this principle and the concept upheld by

21 that party. Also a well-known football player, Ivica

22 Osim, who was later the team leader, he also opted for

23 this party, and he advocated the ideas upheld by that

24 party. Then Emir Kusturica, a well-known film

25 director, a world-renowned director, wholeheartedly

Page 716

1 supported that party because he said that that was a

2 party with a broad outlook and that he didn't need

3 narrow-minded parties within which he couldn't live.

4 Q. Did you receive any instructions from

5 Mr. Bjelic?

6 A. Mr. Bjelic told me that in Prijedor, too,

7 there were several people who had an interest in this

8 party and its programme and that we should contact them

9 and talk to them and see what could be done.

10 Q. Did he mention a name?

11 A. He mentioned the name of Marko Pavic, Milan

12 Andzic, Nedzo Delic. Maybe some others, but I can't

13 recall just now.

14 Q. Mr. Marko Pavic, is he the same gentleman who

15 is now the communications minister in the government of

16 Republika Srpska?

17 A. Yes, Mr. Marko Pavic is a minister in the

18 current government of Republika Srpska.

19 A moment ago when we were talking about Banja

20 Luka, in addition to the names I mentioned, it was

21 well-known that the current prime minister of Republika

22 Srpska was one of the initiators for the founding of

23 such a party for the region of Banja Luka, or maybe

24 even further afield. I also remember hearing your name

25 mentioned, though I didn't know you personally at the

Page 717

1 time.

2 Q. Thank you for this. At least I can be sure

3 that Mr. Niemann won't prosecute me. I'm just joking.

4 Did Mr. Markovic have a promotion of his

5 party in 1990, and where?

6 A. Yes, in Prijedor. That year, a rally was

7 held at Mount Kozara, a large popular rally as we

8 describe it, which was attended by a very large number

9 of people, and at this rally, he delivered a speech and

10 presented the programme of his party.

11 Q. Can you assess the number of people attending

12 that rally?

13 A. I know that in the media a large figure was

14 mentioned, but this is a -- it is not a plateau, it is

15 a mountain, so it is very difficult to judge how many

16 people attended. But figures mentioned ranged between

17 20.000 and 30.000 to 100.000.

18 Q. Were you there?

19 A. Yes, I was.

20 Q. In your statement, you mentioned two very

21 well-known names in the media. One is the name of

22 Mr. Ivica Osim, a famous football player, a team

23 manager of the Yugoslav National Team just before the

24 war. What ethnicity was his wife, as the media wrote

25 about this extensively?

Page 718

1 A. I think she was Muslim, and he's a Croat, as

2 we know.

3 Q. What about Mr. Abaz Arslanagic? Do you know

4 what ethnicity his wife was?

5 A. Yes. He was a Muslim, and his wife was a

6 Serb from Banja Luka.

7 Q. Mr. Kvocka, what was the attitude of these

8 three parties that you named towards Mr. Markovic's

9 party?

10 A. One could hear, read everywhere that they did

11 not recognise that party, that they simply denied it,

12 persecuted it. They called it the party of mixed

13 marriages, which was considered to be something

14 derogatory.

15 Q. Mr. Ante Markovic, was he frequently

16 described as an Ustasha by representatives of Serb

17 extremists?

18 A. Yes. By the Serbs, he was often referred to

19 as an Ustasha.

20 Q. And what does the term "Ustasha" stand for?

21 A. The term "Ustasha" has been in use ever since

22 the Second World War, and at the time, it denoted

23 members of the most extremist units of Croats, of the

24 Croatian army, who served the occupying force. They

25 committed terrible crimes in the course of history, as

Page 719

1 you know.

2 Q. Did their activities affect the area of

3 Prijedor too?

4 A. The most pronounced form of Ustasha

5 activities was the Jasenovac camp, which existed until

6 the end of 1945. It was there throughout the Second

7 World War, this Jasenovac camp, where Serbs, Jews and,

8 I read from books, a few disobedient Croats too were

9 detained there.

10 Q. How many kilometres is Jasenovac from Banja

11 Luka, in relation to Dubica?

12 A. If it is 35 kilometres from Prijedor, then it

13 is 80 kilometres from Banja Luka. But if you take the

14 Dubica road across Mount Kozara, then it is very

15 close. I don't know exactly kilometre-wise.

16 Q. Did a large number of citizens of Prijedor

17 end up in Jasenovac, about which a film was made?

18 A. An enormous number. Virtually all the men

19 from the villages around Prijedor, and a part of the

20 town of Prijedor, in this offensive, most of them ended

21 up in Jasenovac.

22 Q. The political party of Mr. Markovic, did it

23 succeed in growing roots in Prijedor and the

24 surroundings, in establishing a foothold?

25 A. I think not really, except for the first

Page 720

1 initial attempts and that rally on Mount Kozara.

2 Q. And why do you think that was so?

3 A. I think that what prevailed were the

4 extremists. But let me say, also other nationalist

5 forces did not support him. The SDA denied the value

6 of such a party, and so did the HDZ, so that they were

7 all against it.

8 Q. After the parliamentary elections in November

9 1990, did that party and its leader, Ante Markovic,

10 disappear from the political stage?

11 A. Yes, they did, in my belief.

12 Q. Mr. Markovic, who is a Croat, did he appear

13 on the political scene of Croatia after those

14 elections?

15 A. He was not heard of again after the first

16 multiparty elections. There was no mention of him.

17 Q. A moment ago, you said that nationalist

18 parties had divided the people along ethnic lines.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. That the Serbs mostly supported the SDS; the

21 Muslims, the SDA, and so on.

22 A. Yes, that is exactly what I said.

23 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the

24 usher for his assistance to place two documents under

25 the ELMO. My number is DP50. Could you place it under

Page 721

1 the ELMO, and one for the registrar, please.

2 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Exhibit D3/1

3 and D3/1A for the English version.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

5 Mr. Registrar, what was the previous number of the

6 document, the document number 10?

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] It was D2/1,

8 Mr. President.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

10 very much.

11 Ms. Hollis, for the moment, is the system

12 functioning regarding the exhibits?

13 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour. It is very

14 helpful when Mr. Simic tells us the number he noted on

15 the exhibit himself, which was 50, that enables us to

16 find it.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Mr. Simic, you may continue.

19 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Kvocka, did you ever join or support the

21 Serb option, that is, the SDS party?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you ever talk to anyone from the party

24 and express your wish to join?

25 A. No. I had no interest in that.

Page 722

1 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

2 there is evidence to show that Mr. Kvocka was never a

3 member of the SDS party in view of his political


5 Q. I have a question for you, Mr. Kvocka, though

6 it is a very private area that I'm touching upon, so it

7 is up to you not to answer it if you'd rather not. Who

8 did you vote for at the elections in November 1990?

9 A. I think it is not difficult to conclude from

10 what I have said so far whom I voted for. As the

11 elections were secret, I have no fear for voting for my

12 option and according to my own conscience.

13 Q. Yesterday Mr. Niemann spoke about the

14 relationship of the SDS towards people who were not

15 members of that party, so I should now like to ask you

16 to take our Exhibit number 29.

17 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, I

18 know there's a problem and that is the following:

19 These are not original documents, we were unable to

20 obtain them, but the Prosecution has, and the

21 Prosecution gave them to the Defence and the Defence

22 will use them and comment on them as an exhibit,

23 because indeed we could not get hold of those

24 documents.

25 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] It will be

Page 723

1 Exhibit 4/1.

2 THE INTERPRETER: The witness said he didn't

3 have the version in Serbian.

4 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Kvocka, you have before you a decision of

6 the crisis staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina,

7 number 03-531/92, dated 22nd June 1992.

8 In point one of this decision it is

9 explicitly stated that all executive posts can be held

10 exclusively by personnel of Serbian nationality. In

11 paragraph two, it is particularly underlined that this

12 applies to the Ministry of the Interior and the army.

13 What is of the greatest importance for us is

14 paragraph three which says and I quote: "Also, these

15 posts cannot be held by persons of Serb ethnicity who

16 did not confirm this by plebiscite or who have still

17 not ideologically understood that the sole

18 representative of the Serbian people is the Serbian

19 Democratic Party."

20 Were such positions made public in the

21 media?

22 A. Yes. Yes, they were. In Official Gazettes

23 too of the government at the time and also in the

24 regular media.

25 Q. Did the Kozarski Vjesnik newspaper write

Page 724

1 about this?

2 A. It did.

3 Q. What did that mean in practice?

4 A. What it meant was that the SDS proclaimed

5 itself as the sole representative of the Serb people

6 and as the sole leader of the Serb people, and those

7 who were not in the SDS did not belong anywhere.

8 Q. And such personnel policy, was it applied in

9 practice?

10 A. Yes. Following these decisions, all the

11 managers were replaced and other officials in other

12 bodies and in the enterprises.

13 Q. Was there any possibility, in 1992, for

14 someone who did not have a membership card of the SDS

15 to have any kind of leading position?

16 A. No, it was not possible.

17 Q. Was there mistrust towards people who were

18 not members?

19 A. Yes, indeed. There was a high degree of

20 mistrust, and they simply refused to think about the

21 possibility of somebody who was not a member of the SDS

22 to hold a managerial post.

23 Q. Mr. Kvocka, was a similar ideology upheld by

24 the other two parties, the SDA and the HDZ, when they

25 were establishing their authority as a result of the

Page 725

1 election results in November 1990?

2 A. Yes. Judging by what I read in the media in

3 Prijedor, the SDA party had won at the elections, and

4 they sought to appoint to the highest position their

5 members and their cadres.

6 Q. So the principle was roughly the same.

7 A. Yes. Absolutely so.

8 Q. The SDS equals Serbs, the SDA equals Muslims,

9 the HDZ equals Croats.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And those in between?

12 A. Those in between didn't belong anywhere, as

13 if they didn't exist.

14 Q. Was this principle applied in the police

15 force?

16 A. Yes, it was. After the elections,

17 appointments were made as a function of the election

18 results.

19 Q. When the new authorities had been established

20 and when you left Omarska -- we will be coming to that

21 later in much greater detail, of course -- were there

22 any deaths recorded among Muslims in Prijedor of

23 natural causes, killings, or whatever?

24 A. Yes, there were, after the establishment of

25 the authorities and also later.

Page 726

1 Q. After you left Omarska?

2 A. Yes. Yes.

3 Q. Were there problems with funerals?

4 A. Yes. There were many problems, because this

5 was the period when the SDS or, rather, the Serbs took

6 over power themselves. They took over all power in

7 Prijedor by then.

8 Q. Will you tell me who was the Hodza in

9 Prijedor at the time?

10 A. The only Hodza who stayed on, because

11 probably the others had left, was Solo Adil.

12 Q. What is a Hodza?

13 A. A Hodza is a Muslim religious leader or

14 representative. The religious representative of the

15 people.

16 Q. Can it be compared to a priest among the

17 Serbs and Croats?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What were the problems linked to funerals

20 then?

21 A. At the time, it was very difficult to

22 organise a funeral, be it a death of natural causes or

23 as a result of killing, because the nationalists would

24 not allow it. They simply wouldn't allow it. The

25 people themselves, the Muslims, very often didn't even

Page 727

1 dare to try and bury their dead unless they had taken

2 measures to protect themselves in some way.

3 Q. Mr. Solo, did he at the time ask for the

4 assistance of the official authorities to assist him in

5 the burial of the dead?

6 A. I think he did.

7 Q. On a number of occasions, did he request that

8 you be a member of the security when those burials took

9 place?

10 A. Yes. He did that by asking for this, and on

11 one occasion, with a relative of my wife, he came in

12 person, together with this relative, to ask me, on a

13 private basis, whether I would help them.

14 Q. Would you tell us where that funeral took

15 place?

16 A. The funeral was carried out in a suburb

17 called Puharska in Prijedor.

18 Q. So you attended that burial in order to

19 provide security for the actual ceremony?

20 A. Yes. I was the only Serb attending a Muslim

21 funeral.

22 Q. Before these tragic events, was it customary,

23 either at Muslim or Serb or Croat funerals,

24 representatives of all the peoples to attend depending

25 on their relationship to the deceased, whether they

Page 728

1 were friends or acquaintances?

2 A. Yes, of course. Before the nationalism

3 became rampant and the nationalist parties appeared, it

4 was customary in Prijedor for all people who knew the

5 deceased or his family to attend the funeral regardless

6 of the ethnic group they belonged to.

7 Q. So this was an expression of communal

8 spirit.

9 A. Yes. That was an expression of it before all

10 these events.

11 Q. Did you have any unpleasant experiences

12 during any of these ceremonies for which you provided

13 security?

14 A. Yes. What happened is in respect of this

15 funeral that I just mentioned in Puharska. The

16 cemetery itself was at the intersection of the roads,

17 and there was an improvised basketball field, and some

18 young men, I say in their 20s, played, I think, pick-up

19 basketball, and they created a lot of noise. It is

20 well known that an Islamic funeral requires a certain

21 amount of quiet and respect so that all the rituals,

22 the prayers, and everything could be said. After

23 several warnings, I managed to disperse that group, but

24 I could easily have gotten into an altercation with

25 them.

Page 729

1 Q. Were there any extreme reactions in terms of

2 the burial itself?

3 A. What do you mean, in general?

4 Q. Any kind.

5 A. Yes. Hasan Crnalic was told that he could

6 not do this at all at that time in that place. His

7 father-in-law died in the house and nobody dared to

8 come to the house for two days. So Hasan Crnalic

9 arrived two days later. I accompanied him so that he

10 could make all the necessary preparations for a regular

11 burial.

12 Q. Mr. Kvocka, those of us who have lived

13 through this know that people lived through hardship,

14 financial hardship.

15 A. Yes. There were no salaries, no pensions,

16 nothing.

17 Q. Was there any organised aid, assistance

18 through charitable societies, Merhamet and the Circle

19 of Serbian Sisters and things like that?

20 A. Yes. Such societies and such associations

21 existed in Prijedor.

22 Q. The charity association Merhamet was part of

23 what ethnic group?

24 A. The Muslim one.

25 Q. Did they mostly provide assistance to the

Page 730

1 Muslim families throughout that difficult time?

2 A. Yes, for the most part.

3 Q. Did the Merhamet association also provide

4 assistance to your family?

5 A. For a period of time they did.

6 Q. Is there any record of this assistance?

7 A. Yes. They had a list of the members of the

8 association, and I believe that my wife has a

9 membership card still.

10 Q. Did they enter the amounts and the date the

11 assistance which they provided?

12 A. Yes. I think that they put down dates.

13 Q. Did you receive this assistance from the

14 Merhamet association for two or three years following

15 your engagement in Omarska?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did they ask any questions?

18 A. No. At first there were no problems.

19 Q. Prijedor is a relatively small town. People

20 know each other. Did people in Prijedor know that for

21 a period of time you worked at Omarska?

22 A. Yes. I think that practically all Muslims

23 knew this.

24 Q. This did not present an obstacle for the

25 Merhamet association to continue providing assistance

Page 731

1 to your family?

2 A. No. I had a feeling that some of the workers

3 there actually were glad to be able to assist me.

4 Q. Awhile ago, you mentioned that a number of

5 Muslims that were housed in your mother-in-law's

6 house. After the dissolution of the Omarska camp, did

7 some of these people find assistance in your house?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you name any names?

10 A. Yes. During the Omarska period and following

11 that, as far as my mother-in-law's house is concerned,

12 we mentioned the names of my relatives. As far as my

13 apartment is concerned, a number of people took shelter

14 there. I cannot recall everybody now, but there was a

15 family, Sehic, a mother, father, son, and a daughter,

16 they came. For a month they would come and spend the

17 night if they felt that the situation in town was

18 uncertain. Sometimes we would just go over to their

19 apartment and bring them over.

20 Q. How about the Zelinkic [phoen] Family?

21 A. Yes. The Zelinkic family stayed at my

22 mother-in-law's a while later. See, I could not

23 remember them right away.

24 Q. Following your arrest, did Enver Zelinkic

25 call from Sweden to provide assistance, to explain what

Page 732

1 type of person you were?

2 A. Yes, she contacted my wife on several

3 occasions.

4 Q. On this occasion, did she say that her

5 brother and her father did not dare speak because of

6 the political situation but that she felt obliged to

7 travel from Sweden to come and testify about what you

8 did for her family?

9 A. Yes. This is what she told my wife. She

10 said that her brother and her brother's son, in fact,

11 who spent the most time at my house were now residing

12 in Kljuce, and the situation was such that they just

13 did not dare report as witnesses because the local

14 authorities there did not allow it and it would be

15 dangerous for them, but since she was in Sweden, she

16 felt that she ran no such risk.

17 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I

18 have concluded an area of questioning, so perhaps this

19 would be a good time for Mr. Kvocka to take a break,

20 and if this is convenient for you, this may be a good

21 time to take a break. We are now going to enter into

22 areas which require a lot of concentration and focus.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Quite so,

24 Mr. Simic. It's quite convenient to have a break now.

25 We had planned to do so around midday. So we're now

Page 733

1 going to have a 20-minute break.

2 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 12.23 p.m.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

5 are we arriving at the Omarska camp? Will we be there

6 shortly? You may continue.

7 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I'm afraid that

8 we may not arrive there because we still have a number

9 of questions that are of general character in order to

10 get a better understanding of it.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] It is up to

12 you to channel your examination-in-chief, but we are

13 waiting. Please proceed. Thank you.

14 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 Q. Mr. Kvocka, are you ready?

16 A. Yes. Go ahead, please.

17 Q. In order for all of us to gain a better

18 understanding of the matter, we will very briefly touch

19 on the town of Omarska itself in relation to Prijedor.

20 Omarska is part of Prijedor; is that correct?

21 A. Yes. Yes, it is part of the Prijedor

22 municipality.

23 Q. What is a municipality, administratively

24 speaking?

25 A. That is a certain territory which encompasses

Page 734

1 a certain area. It has its administrative authority,

2 and it consists of the city of Prijedor and the local

3 communes; that is, the administrative division into

4 local communes.

5 Q. Were there municipal authorities in the

6 territory of Prijedor municipality?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did the local commune of Omarska belong

9 within the municipality of Prijedor?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Could you attempt to locate it

12 geographically?

13 A. The local commune of Omarska is about halfway

14 between Banja Luka and Prijedor, several kilometres

15 closer to Prijedor. In other words, it is about 25

16 kilometres from Prijedor.

17 Q. There is a highway, Banja Luka-Prijedor.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is this local commune by the highway or is it

20 removed from it?

21 A. It is about 2 to 3 kilometres away from the

22 main highway.

23 Q. Could you try to tell us what is the square

24 area of this local commune?

25 A. I don't know exactly. But it's a very small

Page 735

1 area, if you only take into account the local commune

2 of Omarska.

3 Q. What about the hamlets that were made part

4 of -- or the local villages that surrounded Omarska?

5 A. If you take into account these surrounding

6 local communes and villages, then it's a somewhat wider

7 area.

8 Q. Organisationally speaking, the area of the

9 local commune, do you know anything about the local

10 administration of that local commune?

11 A. Well, you can say that there is an element of

12 local authority, that is, that there is a link between

13 the municipal authority and the local commune.

14 Q. Can you say what are the local institutions

15 of power there?

16 A. Institutionally speaking, there is a

17 secretary for the local commune, and this is a

18 technical position; then there are citizens assemblies;

19 there is the president of the assembly, of this local

20 commune; and a number of subordinate organs, I guess

21 you can call them organs. This is in political terms.

22 As far as other major features of the local

23 communes are concerned, there is a health centre, a

24 cultural centre; then there is a small detached police

25 unit; there is a railroad station, several commercial

Page 736

1 stores, and one agriculture cooperative. And that's

2 about it.

3 Q. Before the war, was there an agricultural

4 enterprise which had its administrative seat there?

5 A. Actually, no. There was a mining complex

6 which was called Ljubija, that was the overall name,

7 and it had a unit at Omarska.

8 Q. Did the Ljubija company have any business

9 premises or any production facilities there?

10 A. Yes, there were some production facilities.

11 Q. What about any administrative buildings?

12 A. Yes, there was an administration building

13 which was part of the Ljubija Mining Company.

14 Q. How far was this industrial complex from the

15 centre of the town and the police station?

16 A. It was about 1.5 kilometres from the police

17 station, and that was the centre of Omarska.

18 Q. Territorially speaking, was the Ljubija

19 mining complex part of the jurisdiction of the police

20 station in Omarska? Did it have authority there?

21 A. Yes. From the security point of view, yes,

22 it did belong to the jurisdiction of this police

23 station.

24 Q. In other words, the police station was

25 responsible for the security in that mining complex.

Page 737

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Mr. Kvocka, to get closer to your employment

3 at the police station in Omarska, I would first like to

4 address an issue that I believe you are familiar with.

5 The police force, at the time of your

6 employment there, its official name was "Militia."

7 A. Yes, until 1991 -- 1990/1991, it was called

8 Militia.

9 Q. In many documents, you will see the name

10 "Militia," but we will use the term "police" or

11 "police force," because this is the generally accepted

12 name, in order for all of us to be able to better

13 follow.

14 You said that you are familiar with the

15 police organisational structure.

16 A. Yes, I'm familiar with it. I know about --

17 in general terms, I know its overall organisation, and

18 at the local level, I think I know it fairly well.

19 Q. In the pertinent time, there were two levels

20 of police operation; one was before the Serbs took over

21 control of it and the second, after they took control

22 of it. In regard to the first part, we will talk about

23 the police force as it existed in, say, 1991.

24 How was the police force organised?

25 A. Before the war, including 1991, in the

Page 738

1 territory of the entire Yugoslavia, there was a federal

2 secretariat for internal affairs. This was the

3 so-called federal SUP which was the overall authority

4 for the entire Yugoslavia.

5 Organisationally speaking, below this were

6 the republican SUP organisations. In other words,

7 every republic within the former Yugoslavia had its own

8 secretariat for internal affairs.

9 Q. Let's address the organisation within a

10 single republic. What was the mission of the federal

11 secretariat, and what were the tasks of the republican

12 secretariats?

13 A. The federal secretariat controlled the police

14 work for the entire country, that is, all of

15 Yugoslavia, and it was superior to the republican

16 secretariats. So the republican secretariat conducted

17 all the police work within the territory of its

18 republic.

19 Q. Did they submit bills regulating police work?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In other words, we had the federal and

22 republican laws governing police work.

23 A. Yes, but they needed to be coordinated. The

24 republican laws were always adopted on the basis of the

25 federal ones.

Page 739

1 Q. If I understood you correctly, there was

2 coordination, a system of coordination of regulations

3 streaming down from the federal ones to the republican

4 ones.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Does that mean that the police activities

7 were strictly regulated by both the republican and

8 federal regulations?

9 A. Yes, that is correct. There was a law of

10 internal affairs, and there was a federal one and there

11 were republican ones.

12 Q. On the basis of either the republican or

13 federal laws, did the local ministries adopt their

14 rules regulating their operation and other work?

15 A. Yes. Especially the republican ones adopted

16 their own rules for police operation and conduct.

17 Q. And these laws referred to the territory for

18 which they were adopted.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And the regulations provided very strict

21 rules of operation.

22 A. Yes. All foreseeable incidents or events

23 were covered by them, and the appropriate measures were

24 also defined.

25 Q. Let us now move to the practical

Page 740

1 implementation of these rules and regulations. As this

2 was addressed previously by the Prosecution, it may be

3 useful if we explain what changes took place on 31

4 December 1989.

5 A. What year did you mention?

6 Q. That was 1989.

7 A. In that year, the police in

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina was reorganised. The so-called

9 municipal SUP organisations, that is, secretariats for

10 internal affairs, were dissolved, and they were

11 replaced by public security stations.

12 Q. What was the area of responsibility of a

13 public security station?

14 A. It covered the area of a single

15 municipality.

16 Q. Now, we're still talking about 1989. With

17 respect to the municipal secretariats for internal

18 affairs, were there intermunicipal secretariats?

19 A. Yes. Before this change, there was a

20 secretariat for internal affairs which covered several

21 municipalities, so you could call them regional

22 secretariats.

23 Q. So this was a regional --

24 A. Principles?

25 Q. Yes. You mean these were based on regional

Page 741

1 principles and these were regional organs.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Was this regional principle of organisation

4 of police work kept?

5 A. Yes, it was kept, but now it was replaced by

6 the centre of public security.

7 Q. What is the difference between a centre for

8 public security and the former Intermunicipal

9 Secretariat for Internal Affairs?

10 A. Well, I personally didn't see any great

11 difference in the organisational sense. Both the

12 Centre for Public Security included a number of public

13 security stations as did in previous times the regional

14 secretariat. It also included a number of

15 intermunicipal secretariats.

16 Q. Mr. Kvocka, I see that you're a little

17 tired. I'm asking you about the full name of the

18 regional form of organisation for the police force. Is

19 it a centre for public security or a public security

20 station?

21 A. Yes. It includes the centre for the security

22 services, the centre for the security services.

23 Q. So can we address it in the official form.

24 A. Well, I spent my whole life time working in

25 the public security centre, so I find it difficult to

Page 742

1 assimilate this other name.

2 Q. Let us go back to the municipal level for the

3 time being. The service for public security, public

4 security service, did that service exist in Prijedor?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How was it divided up?

7 A. Well, it was divided into two departments,

8 the service for public and the service for state

9 security.

10 Q. What did the State Security Service deal

11 with?

12 A. The State Security Service's job was

13 exclusively related to state security matters and

14 matters which were of interest to the security of the

15 state, in the interests of protecting the state.

16 Q. You never worked in that service, did you?

17 A. No.

18 Q. The public security service. Let's take a

19 look at that and what it was in charge of.

20 A. The public security service had a number of

21 spheres of activity, starting with some general

22 administrative work such as issuing all types of

23 documents, IDs, passports, and so on, right up to the

24 police force as a department and the criminal service

25 department, and their task was to prevent crime from

Page 743

1 taking place and to control traffic and ensure safety

2 on the roads and so on.

3 Q. You said that within the frameworks of the

4 public security service we had the police service

5 within it.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How was that organised? In what way?

8 A. In the public security stations there were

9 police stations within them, within the public security

10 stations.

11 Q. One or more police stations?

12 A. Depending.

13 Q. What did it depend on?

14 A. Well, for the most part, it depended on the

15 size of the municipality, the number of inhabitants,

16 the problems that the region had to deal with and so

17 on.

18 Q. If there were police stations, was there the

19 legal possibility of founding some lower forms of

20 police activity?

21 A. Yes. Within the frameworks of the police

22 stations, it was possible to organise police

23 departments, depending, once again, on the structure of

24 the area, the number of inhabitants, and so on. So

25 that in the larger inhabited areas, larger settlements

Page 744

1 that came within the frameworks of the municipality,

2 there were police departments of this kind as well.

3 Q. As you spent almost your entire lifetime

4 working in Prijedor, could you please tell us what the

5 organisation was like, whether there were a number of

6 police stations, whether there were police departments

7 within those police stations as well?

8 A. Well, on several occasions at different

9 periods in the course of my work there, there was

10 reorganisation within the police station of that kind,

11 and it did come about that within the frameworks of a

12 public security station, there were three or four

13 police stations, and then these would be reduced to

14 only one police station with three or four police

15 departments within it.

16 Q. What is the difference between a police

17 station and a police department?

18 A. A police station is a basic organisational

19 police unit which has its commander of the police

20 station and his deputy --

21 Q. No, I mean what different work did it do?

22 What different work do they do?

23 A. The police station covers a broader area, and

24 within its composition it has these police

25 departments.

Page 745

1 Q. But what about the work they did and the

2 competencies? Were there any differences there?

3 A. Well, the difference was that a police

4 station had far broader authorisation and competencies

5 than a police precinct or department.

6 Q. Is there any difference in territorial

7 authority; that is to say, the territory that each was

8 in charge of? Was there any difference there?

9 A. Yes, absolutely so. There was a difference.

10 The police department or precinct had its own

11 territory, but this did not exclude the competence and

12 the authority of the police station over that same

13 territory.

14 Q. If I have understood you correctly, then that

15 means that the police station, if it is one, it is in

16 charge of the whole territory of the municipality. Is

17 that right?

18 A. Yes, quite so.

19 Q. And the departments or precincts were only in

20 charge of a narrower, smaller area of the general

21 municipality area?

22 A. Yes. That's right.

23 Q. You started saying something a moment ago, so

24 let's go back to what you were going to embark upon

25 with regard to the leadership of both these

Page 746

1 organisations. Who was in charge of the police

2 station?

3 A. The police station was led by the commander

4 of the station.

5 Q. Did he have a deputy?

6 A. Yes. There is always a deputy.

7 Q. Are there any other superior officials

8 governing the work of the police station?

9 A. Yes. There is one or more assistants.

10 Q. Why one or more?

11 A. Well, that depended, once again, on the

12 problems and size of the area for which the police

13 station was -- of which the police station was in

14 charge. So there would be in some areas several

15 assistants who would, each of them, have their own area

16 of activity, of police activity. For example, public

17 law and order. There would be one assistant in charge

18 of public law and order. Crime would have another

19 assistant, and so on.

20 Q. In that organisational structure, who has the

21 supreme authority?

22 A. The commander of the station issues orders,

23 is the person who issues orders.

24 Q. And the deputy commander and assistants, what

25 do they do?

Page 747

1 A. They execute and implement the orders issued

2 by the commander, komandir.

3 Q. The police department or precinct, what is

4 its command structure?

5 A. In the department, there is just the

6 commander or the leader of the department, and that is

7 just one individual who is in command of the work of

8 that department.

9 Q. So there are no deputies or assistants?

10 A. No. In the police department, that kind of

11 structure never existed.

12 Q. After the commander, komandir, if you have a

13 certain number of policemen, is there any hierarchy as

14 regards to the issuance of orders?

15 A. If you're talking about the department,

16 police department --

17 Q. Yes, I am.

18 A. No. In a police department there is only the

19 commander, the leader, and the others are just ordinary

20 policemen with no difference in rank.

21 Q. A moment ago, you mentioned the fact that

22 during your work there were transformations. The

23 police stations, police departments, all this was

24 undergoing transformation. Now, did these

25 transformations affect the Omarska station? Which

Page 748

1 we're going to focus on, of course.

2 A. Yes, it did happen there. When I began

3 working in Omarska in 1981 for the first time, it was

4 called the police department.

5 Q. Can you remember who the commander of the

6 department was?

7 A. The commander of that department at the time

8 was Simo Miskovic.

9 Q. Mr. Miskovic, whom we mentioned as the

10 president of the SDS when this unfortunate conflict

11 came into being, is that the same one?

12 A. Yes. Much later he retired, and after having

13 retired, he became politically active.

14 Q. When did the department grow to become a

15 station, a police station?

16 A. This took place several years after I had

17 started working. So if I start -- in 1981 there was a

18 reorganisation and Omarska became a police station;

19 that is to say, a police station was founded in

20 Omarska. The department grew to become the police

21 station.

22 Q. Does that mean that the command structure

23 changed as well?

24 A. Yes. Absolutely correct.

25 Q. The police station got a commander and a

Page 749

1 deputy commander and so on. Can you remember their

2 names?

3 A. Yes, I can. The commander of the station was

4 Radovan Daljevic. The deputy commander was Dzuro

5 Prpos, and the assistant was Miro Gavrilovic.

6 Q. And how did the situation evolve further?

7 A. Well, sometime in 1990, I think this

8 coincided with the general organisation we were talking

9 about a moment ago, and the police station at Omarska

10 was abolished, and the departments, police department

11 was revived. So it became once again the police

12 department of Omarska.

13 Q. And what happened to Mr. Daljevic?

14 A. I think that he retired when this came

15 about.

16 Q. And what about Mr. Prpos?

17 A. Mr. Prpos moved to Prijedor, and I think he

18 became the deputy commander in the traffics department

19 of the police.

20 Q. What about Mr. Gavrilovic?

21 A. Mr. Gavrilovic also moved to Prijedor to

22 take up some other work.

23 Q. So now you only have a commander, komandir?

24 A. Yes. It was the only the commander of the

25 department that remained and he was a new man.

Page 750

1 Q. Can you remember his name and surname?

2 A. His name was Milutin Bujic [realtime

3 transcript read in error "Buhic"].

4 Q. So we no longer had any deputies or

5 assistants?

6 A. No. Those functions no longer existed.

7 Q. Up until what time did Mr. Bujic perform the

8 department commander?

9 A. Bujic was the commander of our department up

10 until approximately the middle of April 1992.

11 Q. In view of the fact that you worked in

12 Omarska for a considerable length of time, do you know

13 how many policemen worked in or should have -- was to

14 work in the Omarska police department?

15 A. An act called the "Systemisation of Work

16 Posts," according to that document, this provided for

17 15 policemen, a total of 15 policemen. That is to say,

18 14 policemen and the commander of the department.

19 Q. Was this respected; that is to say, in 1992,

20 did 15 policemen actually work in the department?

21 A. No. To all practical effects, we were always

22 short three or four policemen.

23 Q. In view of the events that were to follow and

24 the names that we're going to mention fairly

25 frequently, could you -- do you recall any policemen

Page 751

1 working in the department in 1992 prior to Mr. Bujic's

2 departure?

3 A. I'll try to remember as many of the names as

4 I can. In addition to myself in that department, there

5 was Branislav Bojic who worked there; Ljuban Grahovac;

6 Boro Delic, nicknamed Baja; Edin Besic, Hamdija

7 Arifagic; Fikret Harambasic. I can't remember any

8 more. Maybe I'll remember them later on.

9 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your

10 Honours. There seems to have been an error in the

11 transcript. When speaking about the commander of the

12 department, his name is Bujic. B-u-j-i-c is the

13 correct spelling of that name. If that could be

14 rectified.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. We're

16 going to correct it, but perhaps, Mr. Simic, you could

17 be of the greatest assistance to both the court

18 reporters and the interpreters, who are not so

19 familiar, perhaps, with all these names, and that would

20 assist us too, if you could spell the names, to say

21 B-u, et cetera. If you could spell the names, please,

22 if possible. Thank you very much.

23 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] We shall do our

24 very best, Your Honour.

25 A. I forgot to mention two other police then,

Page 752

1 Zeljko Meakic and Mlajo Radic. They too worked with me

2 at that time.

3 Q. In April 1992 --

4 MR. SIMIC: I apologise once again. We seem

5 to have a problem in the transcript. A very vital name

6 has been left out, Zeljko Meakic, in front of Mlajo

7 Radic. There was Zeljko Meakic.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think

9 that -- I don't see in the transcript what I heard in

10 the translation. I think I heard the name Zeljko

11 Meakic, and it should have come before Mladjo Radic,

12 M-l-a-d-j-o; is that right?

13 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely

14 right.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] It has been

16 corrected in the transcript. Thank you very much once

17 again.

18 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you too,

19 Your Honour.

20 Q. So the middle of April 1992 -- that's what we

21 were talking about -- the post of commander was

22 vacant. Which policeman wanted to become commander,

23 komandir?

24 A. At the time, we began -- rumours had it that

25 Bujic would no longer be commander in Omarska, and

Page 753

1 amongst the policemen themselves, there was

2 considerable polemics, and it was thought that

3 Branislav Bojic, Zeljko Meakic could replace him.

4 Q. Were there any formal conditions to be met,

5 that is to say, which stipulated who could be a

6 commander, who was qualified?

7 A. Well, by law, the commander of a department

8 must have a higher education, which would be comparable

9 to and in line with the police profession.

10 Q. Within the schooling system of the former

11 Yugoslavia, was there a higher school for internal

12 affairs, or for the police force?

13 A. Yes, there was, in a number of republics.

14 Q. Did you attend the higher school for internal

15 affairs?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Who became commander of the department in

18 1992?

19 A. The commander became Zeljko Meakic.

20 Q. Did he have a deputy or an assistant?

21 A. No, he did not.

22 Q. In addition to this professional composition

23 of the police force, in the work of the police and, of

24 course, the work of the departments, because that's

25 what we're talking about at the moment, was there any

Page 754

1 reserve police formation?

2 A. Yes. In the overall system of the work of

3 the police force, there was a reserve police force.

4 Q. Who was a reserve policeman?

5 A. Well, in principle, the reserve policemen

6 could be people with the right positive traits that are

7 required for a policeman; that is to say, that they

8 were not criminals, that they had never been taken to

9 court, that they were respected in the local community

10 where they lived and worked, as the reserve police

11 force was organised on a territorial basis.

12 Q. Perhaps we have misunderstood each other.

13 What I wanted to ask you to explain was in what way

14 could you become a reserve policeman? But I thank you

15 for your explanations of what are the general traits of

16 a policeman.

17 A. One became a reserve policeman in the

18 following manner: The public security station would

19 have workers, clerks, in charge of this aspect, and

20 there are plans for this in the public security

21 stations. And it is according to those plans and in

22 cooperation with the Defence Ministry that certain

23 cadres are requested; that is to say, the Defence

24 Ministry provides them and they then have to do service

25 in the military police. And I think that that is the

Page 755

1 basic aspect of this matter, as far as I know.

2 Q. That means that they are conscripts then,

3 does it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And within the frameworks of the legal

6 provisions, they go and report to the Ministry of

7 Defence.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And the Ministry of Defence, via the

10 municipal department, bearing in mind the existing

11 plans and programmes, sends the individuals to one of

12 the police stations; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, that was the procedure.

14 Q. And they become -- they are given the status

15 of policeman.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. These policemen, when they arrived in the

18 police force, were they trained at all?

19 A. Yes, they were.

20 Q. When was the reserve police force generally

21 used?

22 A. The reserve police force was generally used

23 when there were certain major events taking place and

24 when the police service, with its active policemen, was

25 not able to do all the work.

Page 756

1 For example, when President Tito, in former

2 times, used to come visiting, then a larger number of

3 reserve policemen would be used to provide security and

4 help the normal police force. This is also true in

5 case of natural disasters, floods and so on, the

6 reserve police force would be called upon to assist.

7 Things of that kind.

8 Q. What about the Olympics in Sarajevo?

9 A. Yes. When, in 1984, we had the winter

10 Olympics in Sarajevo, practically all the reserve

11 policemen were incorporated.

12 Q. Why?

13 A. Well, for security reasons, quite simply,

14 because we had to cover a large area and physically

15 ensure security and protection for the whole area.

16 Q. Did a reserve policeman receive information

17 at the Ministry of Defence as to which assignment he

18 would be sent on?

19 A. Yes, a reserve policeman would receive an

20 assignment of that kind.

21 Q. As reserve policemen, were they given police

22 uniforms?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Was there any difference between the uniforms

25 worn by the active policemen and the reserve police

Page 757

1 force?

2 A. If we're talking about before the war, then

3 there was a difference in the uniforms. They had a

4 similar uniform but they would be of a slightly

5 different colour, tone.

6 Q. When a reserve policeman would be sent on an

7 assignment, was he equated with the active policemen?

8 Did he receive a salary during his work within the

9 police force?

10 A. If we're talking about before the war, then I

11 think that their position was equal to the positions of

12 the active policemen, yes. But before the war, he did

13 not receive a separate salary, because if he was

14 employed in a company, in an enterprise of whatever

15 kind, he would receive his regular salary during the

16 time that he was assigned to this reserve police work.

17 Q. Did the state remunerate his company for the

18 salary, for his absence in the company and his

19 engagement by the police force?

20 A. Well, I assume that they did, but I didn't

21 really have an insight into it.

22 Q. But theoretically speaking.

23 A. Yes, theoretically speaking, it was that

24 way.

25 Q. What about in practice? What happened in

Page 758

1 practice, when somebody was sent on assignment, an

2 active and a reserve policeman? Would an active

3 policeman be assisted by a reserve policeman?

4 A. Yes. What they tried to do was to ensure

5 that the composition of a patrol, for example, would be

6 conceived as you have described it, that there would be

7 one or two reserve policemen attached to every active

8 policeman.

9 Q. Was there any reason for this type of

10 organisation?

11 A. Well, yes, there was. A reserve policeman,

12 quite naturally, was not as professionally trained for

13 police work as was the active policeman.

14 Q. What about these patrols and assignments?

15 Did they have an educational aspect to them?

16 A. Yes. In addition to the fact that the active

17 policemen were doing their regular duty in the area or

18 on the ground, the active policemen were also there to

19 train and teach the reserve policemen.

20 Q. And what was cooperation like? Was it always

21 good?

22 A. As far as I was able to note, and according

23 to my experience, I always did have very proper and

24 good cooperation, yes.

25 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to how many

Page 759

1 reserve policemen the police department in Omarska had

2 in the period we're talking about?

3 A. You mean April 1992?

4 Q. Even before that.

5 A. Roughly, about 30.

6 Q. A moment ago, you spoke about the

7 qualifications required for a policeman. Were any

8 checks made among those people to see whether they had

9 been convicted or not?

10 A. Yes, indeed, such checks were made.

11 Q. So a person who had any convictions could not

12 serve as a reserve policeman.

13 A. Under no circumstances.

14 Q. Let us now go back to this hierarchy of

15 control and command.

16 You said that Mr. Meakic was the komandir or

17 commander of the police station department.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Who was his superior?

20 A. His immediate superior is the commander of

21 the police station in Prijedor.

22 Q. As we are talking of the time when Mr. Meakic

23 had already been appointed, do you know who was at that

24 same time the police station commander in Prijedor?

25 A. It was Dusan Jankovic.

Page 760

1 Q. So Dusan Jankovic had a deputy and

2 assistants, didn't he? Could you remember some of

3 them?

4 A. Yes, I can. His deputy was Zilhad Hodzic,

5 one of his assistants was Radovan Kecan, and he had

6 more assistants, but I can't remember their names now.

7 Q. Who was the superior to Mr. Jankovic, if

8 we're going from bottom upwards, along the hierarchy?

9 A. The superior of Mr. Jankovic was the chief of

10 the public security station in Prijedor.

11 Q. In April 1992, before the takeover, who was

12 that?

13 A. Before the takeover, it was Hasan Talundzic.

14 Q. Between Mr. Talundzic and Mr. Jankovic, was

15 there another person who acted as the assistant for

16 police to the head of the public security service?

17 A. At that time, no.

18 Q. And according to the organisational chart,

19 was such a position envisaged?

20 A. No, not at that time. Earlier on, such a

21 position did exist, but when the transformations

22 occurred that we have described, when municipal bodies

23 were transformed into public security stations, then no

24 such workplace existed.

25 Q. So the SJB was part of the centre of the

Page 761

1 security services in Banja Luka.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Does that mean that the next step in the

4 hierarchy upwards was the head of the security services

5 centre?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you know whether at that level there was

8 an assistant for police, an assistant chief for police,

9 who had to coordinate the work of several public

10 security stations?

11 A. Yes. In the security centre, there was an

12 entire section for the police which coordinated the

13 work of the entire police force as part of that

14 centre. But I cannot remember the name of the head of

15 that section.

16 Q. Mr. Kvocka, when you say "the police," do you

17 mean that you are referring to the coordination of the

18 police stations and not the police force as such?

19 A. Yes. The police stations.

20 Q. So let us go back again to the Omarska

21 department of the police station, or any other, for

22 that matter.

23 You said that there was a komandir, a

24 commander. How was the work of the other policemen

25 organised?

Page 762

1 A. The other policemen had several types of

2 duties. There was guard duty, patrol services or

3 patrolling the territory, both terms were used; then

4 there was also a type of duty called security. But in

5 Omarska anyway, we had these three types of duties,

6 three different jobs that policemen performed.

7 Q. Was it clearly indicated which policeman was

8 working on the security, which one was on duty, and

9 which one was on patrol?

10 A. No, this was never defined with any

11 precision.

12 Q. Who made the plans in that respect?

13 A. The daily plans were made by the department

14 commander.

15 Q. If I understand you correctly, any one of the

16 policemen in that department could one day be on duty,

17 another day be on patrol duty, and another day, he

18 could be working on the security of a particular

19 facility.

20 A. Yes, it would happen like that.

21 Q. If you were working on holidays, were you

22 given higher remuneration for those hours of work?

23 A. Yes. There was a regulation which provided

24 for compensation when workers were on duty on holidays,

25 and that compensation was somewhat greater than normal

Page 763

1 working hours.

2 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

3 again, with the help of the Prosecution, who seems to

4 have done much of our work, we received two documents

5 which we should like to tender, document 17/1 and

6 17/2.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

8 may I take this opportunity to ask Mr. Kvocka whether

9 you are tired, whether you can continue. Do you need a

10 break?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very

12 much for your concern, Mr. President. I think I will

13 manage to work until the end, as planned.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I haven't

15 yet heard the whole translation. What was the answer

16 of Mr. Kvocka? I didn't hear it.

17 As we are going to conclude, as planned, at

18 2.30, my idea was to have perhaps a short break now,

19 since we have interrupted anyway. We've been working

20 for an hour, and we will have another hour, so perhaps

21 we could have a 15-minute break for Mr. Kvocka to take

22 a little rest.

23 We'll have a 15-minute break now. Thank you

24 very much.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

Page 764

1 --- Recess taken at 1.25 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 1.46 p.m.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Kvocka,

4 do you feel better now, more rested?

5 THE WITNESS: Everything is fine, Your

6 Honour. I was thinking of general fatigue, but as

7 regards breaks, whenever you decide, we can have a

8 break. Thank you for your concern.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As you

10 know, we're all tired. We're all working hard. It is

11 now up to Mr. Simic to resume work. We have the

12 documents, don't we?

13 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr.

14 President.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic

16 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment. I

17 have a problem. I can't hear the interpretation. Yes,

18 I can hear now. Okay.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The

20 technical people are always right, we used to say. So

21 can you give us the number, first?

22 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. We have received two

23 documents. We received them just before the break.

24 The document dated 7 January 1992 will have the number

25 D5/1, and the other document will be D6/1.

Page 765

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I

2 apologise, Mr. Registrar, but I have a document here

3 which bears the number 7 for the Defence. What is the

4 number of that document?

5 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] 17/1.

6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation]

7 Mr. President, I now have the original documents. The

8 document at your disposal, numbered 17/1, has been

9 registered by the registrar as D5/1; and the document,

10 the Serb version, 17/2, will now be Exhibit D6/1.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I

12 understand now. But still, if there is a number on the

13 Defence document, it is easier to give us the number

14 for us to identify the document, and that is why I was

15 looking for it.

16 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] I apologise,

17 Mr. President, but I myself didn't have the original,

18 so I didn't know the exact numbers of those documents.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In any

20 event, I think that we wanted to organise ourselves

21 better to avoid wasting time and we're not managing to

22 do that. I think, the registrar must have the same

23 documents that we have here and which the Prosecutor

24 has as well. We must all speak the same language when

25 talking about documents. So for me, it is easier if

Page 766

1 somebody gives me a number of the document rather than

2 the date of the document. So I'm asking the Defence,

3 if possible, to give to the Prosecutor, to the Judges,

4 and to the registrar, the same document so that we can

5 speak the same language.

6 So let's continue now, Mr. Simic.

7 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your

8 Honour. The technical difficulties arose because we

9 marked the Serbian version and not the English one, but

10 we will remove that problem very shortly.

11 Q. Mr. Kvocka, a moment ago we were talking

12 about the way in which policemen were engaged and the

13 duties they had within the framework of the police

14 station, department, or precinct. You have before you

15 a document on the assignments for the New Year

16 holidays. Under number 56 -- could the documents be

17 placed on the ELMO, please -- your name is mentioned.

18 Miroslav Kvocka worked from the 1st of January 1992 to

19 the 2nd, from 1500 until 0300 hours, and it says

20 "touring" or "patrolling."

21 Can you explain to the court what exactly you

22 were doing then, and is that a duty assigned to regular

23 active-duty policemen?

24 A. That is a type of duty, policing duty that I

25 described, and on these particular dates, together with

Page 767

1 another policeman, I was patrolling a certain area, a

2 certain district which is within the jurisdiction of

3 the Omarska police department.

4 Q. So we're coming to a similar document but one

5 that is very interesting to us. It is a report on work

6 during the Mayday holidays, the 1st of May 1992. Under

7 number 50, again -- number 50, please. Can we see it

8 on the ELMO? We can see it now on the monitor.

9 It says Kvocka Miroslav, 30th of April -

10 1st May, from 2200 to 0600, and it says "security." So

11 this is another aspect of regular policing duties?

12 A. Yes. This is one of those activities that

13 the police engaged in.

14 Q. I said that this document was of interest

15 because of another topic that we're going to embark

16 upon now, and that is the question of the takeover of

17 power in Prijedor municipality.

18 On the 30th of April 1992, power was taken

19 over in Prijedor municipality; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 Q. As a policeman, did you have any knowledge

22 that such an event would occur?

23 A. No, absolutely none. I had absolutely no

24 information about that.

25 Q. When did this takeover occur?

Page 768

1 A. On the 30th of April, in the early hours of

2 the morning.

3 Q. According to your regular assignments, can

4 you remember what your work assignment was on the 30th

5 of April or, rather, the -- I'm sorry, the eve of the

6 takeover, on the eve of the takeover?

7 A. If you're referring to the day prior to the

8 30th of April --

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. I was working night duty as the policeman on

11 duty in Omarska.

12 Q. So that is the night between the 29th and

13 the 30th?

14 A. Yes. The night between the 29th and the 30th

15 of April, from 1900 on the 29th until 0700 on the 30th

16 of April.

17 Q. So you were on duty in the police station in

18 Omarska?

19 A. Yes, together with several other policemen.

20 Q. In the course of the morning, by any form of

21 communication, was the police station department of

22 Omarska informed of the events that occurred on the

23 30th of April 1992?

24 A. No. Until 0700, the time I spent in the

25 premises of the police station in Omarska, I had no

Page 769

1 knowledge or information about it, nor did the two or

2 three policemen who were on duty with me. We didn't

3 discuss it at all.

4 Q. Did you receive news? Did anyone report to

5 you, "Power has been taken over. There are new

6 authorities in Omarska now"?

7 A. No. We had no information about that.

8 Q. Upon the completion of your shift, where did

9 you go?

10 A. I returned to Prijedor, to my family

11 apartment.

12 Q. Your family or your wife and two children,

13 did they spend that night in their apartment in

14 Prijedor?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Like any other night?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When did you learn that power had been taken

19 over in Prijedor municipality?

20 A. As soon as I entered my apartment. My wife

21 had already heard some news reports about it on the

22 radio, and then I too joined her in listening to these

23 announcements broadcast on Radio Prijedor.

24 Q. What was the content of those announcements?

25 A. They said -- this was in the form of a

Page 770

1 proclamation, announcing that in the early hours of the

2 morning a takeover of power had been carried out by the

3 Serbs or the Serb Democratic Party -- I'm not quite

4 sure about that now -- that this had taken place in

5 order, without a single bullet being fired, that the

6 citizens should stay at home in peace, and that things

7 would function normally.

8 Q. Given your regular schedule, the shift

9 schedules in Omarska police station, when were you

10 supposed to again engage in your regular duties? Were

11 there any changes there?

12 A. Yes. My next schedule was changed somewhat.

13 According to the regular schedule of shifts, I was only

14 supposed to report to duty the following day in the

15 afternoon. However, the very next morning I received a

16 call from commander Zeljko, and he told me that the

17 schedule has been changed, that on that same day I

18 needed to report to Omarska at 2200.

19 Q. Is this the schedule which we have in front

20 of us?

21 A. Yes. That is the date, 30 April through 1

22 May, and the hours are 2200 to 0600.

23 Q. Do you remember who you were in the shift

24 with?

25 A. I'm not exactly sure, but it is possible that

Page 771

1 Ljubo Grahovac, who is listed underneath, was also on

2 that shift.

3 Q. In this report, it details that you were

4 assigned to security. What were you assigned to? What

5 specifically did you secure at that time?

6 A. Zeljko Meakic was tasked with providing

7 security for the most significant facilities in

8 Omarska; in other words, that they needed to be covered

9 in terms of security.

10 Q. From here, we can see that almost all police

11 officers were involved in this. Was this increased

12 security a direct consequence of the takeover of power

13 and perhaps with the contingency of some trouble in

14 mind?

15 A. Yes. Usually these facilities were not

16 secured to that extent, so now we were tasked with

17 paying more attention to those.

18 Q. Have I understood you correctly, that you did

19 not have any knowledge about the takeover of power or

20 any other activity which would fall outside of the

21 usual scope of police activity at that time?

22 A. Yes, that is correct. I had no knowledge of

23 any other activities relative to the takeover of power,

24 and I did not know about it until, as I said, I

25 listened to the radio reports on that with my wife.

Page 772

1 Q. The takeover of power took place on the 30th

2 of April, in the early morning hours. Did this

3 takeover of power lead to any changes in your official

4 duties or obligations, or to any of your colleagues'

5 duties, for instance, like Mladjo Radic?

6 A. No.

7 Q. So you continued to carry out the same

8 duties.

9 A. Yes. I had the exact same duties in the

10 Omarska police station, and it continued that way;

11 except for this change, that we had shorter breaks

12 between the shifts in Omarska.

13 Q. In other words, your time off was reduced.

14 A. That is exactly the fact.

15 Q. In other words, there was a certain pattern

16 of duty time and time off. How long did it go on like

17 that?

18 A. I believe for a couple of days only. Then we

19 returned to the original scheme.

20 Q. Very well. You talked about the regular or

21 active police force. Now, I'm not going to take you

22 back to that, but in the months that followed, let's

23 say two or three months hence, did the number of

24 reserve police officers increase?

25 A. Yes.

Page 773

1 Q. Could you give us an approximate number of

2 how many reserve police officers were assigned to the

3 police station?

4 A. It is not easy to give the exact number

5 because not all of them arrived at the same time.

6 Sometimes several police officers would arrive in

7 several intervals. But overall, 20 to 30 reserve

8 police officers were engaged.

9 Q. Given the extraordinary situation that was in

10 the field at the time, did you have any knowledge

11 whether the old verification system, that is, the

12 verification of the officers who were assigned to the

13 police station, was still implemented?

14 A. I wouldn't know that, but I know that these

15 were very rapidly evolving events.

16 Q. Since you are a police officer and you worked

17 in that area, did you notice whether, among the reserve

18 police officers, there were also individuals who, under

19 normal circumstances, could not have been police

20 officers?

21 A. Yes, there were such cases.

22 Q. In other words, there were persons who had

23 some problems in the past.

24 A. Yes. I think that there were some among them

25 who, under normal circumstances, would never have been

Page 774

1 employed as police officers.

2 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I

3 would like to tender the document marked 23.

4 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This exhibit

5 will be D7/1, and D7/1A for the English version.

6 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Kvocka, you have a public announcement

8 before you. It is very short; I'm going to read it

9 out. I think it reflects the situation very well.

10 This announcement was issued by the crisis staff of the

11 Prijedor municipality, and the text runs as follows:

12 "The Crisis Staff of the Prijedor

13 Municipality calls all men between 18 and 45 years of

14 age, who are not serving either in the army or the

15 police forces and have not been given war assignments

16 yet, to report immediately to the Public Security

17 Station in Prijedor regarding their service in the

18 reserve police force on security duties. Failure to

19 respond to this call implies legal sanctions."

20 This call is addressed to the male population

21 in the town of Prijedor. "In Prijedor, 2 June 1992.

22 Secretariat for Information."

23 Have you understood the contents of this

24 announcement?

25 A. Yes, I have.

Page 775

1 Q. Is this in contravention to what you know

2 about the regular police activity?

3 A. Yes. I think you can see that no procedure

4 was followed which was provided for in the regular

5 times for police officers.

6 Q. Was the crisis staff competent to replenish

7 the police force with reserve forces?

8 A. Never before.

9 Q. According to this document, everybody had to

10 report to the police.

11 A. That is what it says.

12 Q. Those who did not have war assignments.

13 A. Everybody was supposed to report to the

14 police station in Prijedor.

15 Q. So does that mean that this was bypassing the

16 criteria set out for the police officers in peacetime?

17 A. You could say that.

18 Q. In practice, following this announcement,

19 were the reserve police forces increased, that is, in

20 Prijedor or in the areas where you had available

21 information?

22 A. In practice, you could see that when you

23 passed in the town. Let's say, going from home to

24 work, you could see a lot of police.

25 Q. Was this police activity a threat to the

Page 776

1 citizens, given the number of untrained and untested

2 new officers?

3 A. There was a risk of various incidents.

4 Q. Very well. Can you tell me now, could these

5 people have been properly supplied with uniforms and

6 everything else that would identify them?

7 A. No.

8 Q. So does that mean that the police force was

9 dressed differently, in different attire?

10 A. Yes. You could notice that the police

11 officers were wearing different combinations of

12 uniforms, some parts of military uniforms, police

13 uniforms, even civilian clothing.

14 Q. Mr. Kvocka, there was an increase in

15 personnel more than normal, usual. There was a need

16 for more weapons. Were all people armed?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Let's go back to the previous question. We

19 talked about the regular procedures for replenishment

20 of the reserve police force. You said that a reserve

21 police officer would be issued a uniform. Would he

22 typically be taking that uniform home with him?

23 A. Normally, yes.

24 Q. When he would be issued a weapon, and we're

25 talking about the previous times, the regular times,

Page 777

1 what happened in that case?

2 A. He would be given a weapon when there was a

3 need for him to be on duty. That is when he would be

4 issued a weapon.

5 Q. So that would mean that -- let's say a

6 reserve police officer would show up at a police

7 station, and the commander would issue him a weapon.

8 A. This is the procedure from before.

9 Q. Very well. When he has finished his duty for

10 the day, what would then happen? Or go to an

11 exercise.

12 A. After an exercise, let's say, he would clean

13 the weapon and return it.

14 Q. You mean return it to the police station?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were these weapons stored in the police

17 station? Was it under the control of the police?

18 A. Yes, it was in the police station, and in the

19 precinct there was a room which was assigned for the

20 so-called small arms, because these were only rifles.

21 Q. What type of weapon were reserve police

22 officers typically issued?

23 A. At the time when he would start his duty, if

24 you are referring to the specific case when the weapons

25 were turned over for a specific purpose, yes.

Page 778

1 Q. I think we did not understand each other.

2 When I asked who -- what weapons the police officer was

3 issued, I meant what kind of weapon.

4 A. All policemen were issued automatic rifles.

5 Q. And not pistols?

6 A. No.

7 Q. When this large number of police officers was

8 engaged, this -- let's say every police station or

9 precinct had a set number of weapons that had been

10 assigned to that particular station?

11 A. Right.

12 Q. Do you have any information from which

13 sources these weapons were given the increased number

14 of police officers? Where did they come from?

15 A. I have no independent information about where

16 they came from. I know that a number of them could not

17 get it from the police precincts because there weren't

18 enough weapons there, but I know that they were allowed

19 to carry personal weapons, pistols, that is, if some

20 members of the reserve police forces already owned or

21 possessed a pistol legally. Then they were allowed to

22 carry that.

23 Q. To try to sum it up, the Omarska police

24 station was only able to arm those police officers who

25 were assigned them, according to the regular rules, as

Page 779

1 you put it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The new reserve officers, were they trained

4 at all?

5 A. I believe that no special training was

6 conducted, and I think that there was no time for it

7 and no opportunity.

8 Q. I think that I'm almost done with this area,

9 and I believe that we're also running out of time for

10 today. As a police officer, could it happen that in

11 the course of the night of the 30th of April, some

12 conflicts or incidents could take place which would

13 have threatened the safety and security of citizens,

14 including your family which spent that night in your

15 family apartment?

16 A. Well, that is absolutely correct. Given the

17 event, that is, the event that took place in Prijedor

18 that night, this could have provoked a wider conflict.

19 Q. Was it natural that contemplating this

20 possibility, that you would have left your family

21 unprotected in a town where such conflicts could have

22 taken place?

23 A. No, not at all. Had I known anything about

24 what was going to happen that night, I would have made

25 an effort to be as far away as possible from that

Page 780

1 place.

2 Q. Do you have any friends who would have

3 informed you?

4 A. Yes. In fact, my wife was angry with me.

5 She said, "You're a police officer. You should have

6 known what was going to happen. You could have taken

7 us to a safer place."

8 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I

9 had another area in mind which I was going to address

10 before the key events at Omarska, and I was going to

11 ask Mr. Kvocka to lay out for us his tasks and duties

12 throughout his career, and this is what would sort of

13 pave the way for the Omarska events. I don't know if

14 you want me to start that now. It is something that

15 will take some time.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No,

17 Mr. Simic. We obviously will not have the time today,

18 but you will have it tomorrow, because I think it would

19 not be right to cut in half pieces of this testimony

20 which constitute a whole.

21 So I think we shall adjourn now, and we will

22 resume tomorrow, tomorrow morning at 9.30.

23 I can see that Mr. Niemann has something to

24 say.

25 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 781

1 Tomorrow morning I'm in another matter, and I won't be

2 available now for the rest of the two-week period. So

3 may I have Your Honours' leave to be absent for that

4 time?

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But we'll

6 have other representatives of the Office of the

7 Prosecutor.

8 MR. NIEMANN: Of course. My colleague,

9 Ms. Hollis, will certainly take over.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I

11 understand.

12 I think I see Mr. Tosic also, who has

13 something to tell us.

14 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my

15 apologies for addressing you now. I was just trying to

16 find the right moment during the day to request

17 assistance in solving a problem that my client Zoran

18 Zigic has.

19 This morning when he was transported,

20 apparently one security guard was putting handcuffs on

21 his hands, and they leave -- they were placed on him

22 too tightly. So it's very uncomfortable. The entire

23 trip from the detention unit to the court building he

24 suffered discomfort. Even though he asked for the

25 handcuffs to be loosened, his request was ignored by

Page 782

1 the security personnel, which caused my client some

2 anguish.

3 I would like to ask for the Tribunal's

4 assistance in order for this not to be repeated. Thank

5 you.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

7 Mr. Registrar, you will take note of this.

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes,

9 Mr. President. Immediately after the hearing, I shall

10 contact the competent people to see what actually

11 happened and then to take follow-up measures in

12 response.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In that

14 case, we will monitor the situation, and the registrar

15 will report to us, and we will take the necessary

16 measures.

17 I think that is all for today. We'll be

18 meeting again tomorrow at 9.30.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

20 2.30 p.m., to be reconvened on

21 Wednesday, the 1st day of March, 2000

22 at 9.30 a.m.