1 Thursday, 2 March 2000

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 10.00 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

6 morning. You may be seated. Good morning, ladies and

7 gentlemen. Good morning to the technical booth, the

8 interpreters, the members of the Prosecution, the

9 members of the Defence teams. We are in the same

10 composition today as on the previous days. For the

11 record, we don't need to waste time in having the

12 appearances.

13 Before beginning, I must apologise for the

14 delay, but I would like to take advantage of this

15 opportunity to say that an organisation involves all

16 parties in an orderly relationship with the view to

17 achieving a certain objective. I said that is what I

18 thought, because I noticed that on the intranet,

19 yesterday's hearing was announced as a closed session

20 hearing, when, in fact, it was a public hearing. Today

21 I verified to see that the time announced for the

22 beginning hearing was 10.30, rather than 9.30, as we

23 had decided.

24 Therefore, I should ask the registrar to pay

25 attention to these matters. Otherwise, we will not

1 achieve the goals that we have set ourselves. In fact,

2 I believe that each one of us has to assume his

3 responsibilities and do his part of the work. The

4 President of the Chamber should not have to check and

5 review these things to ensure the proper functioning of

6 the proceedings. Everyone must assume his share of the

7 responsibility.

8 So the delay today is partly due to this

9 confusion because the beginning was announced for 10.30

10 instead of 9.30, and as a rule, our hearings will

11 always begin at 9.30, going on until 2.30, except when

12 an exception is made. That is the rule. And all

13 exceptions will have to be announced with sufficient

14 time in advance. We respect the time of other people,

15 and therefore I draw the attention of the registrar to

16 these matters so that the necessary corrections can be

17 made.

18 So now we can continue with the testimony of

19 Mr. Kvocka, and I therefore give the floor to

20 Mr. Simic.

21 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Good morning,

22 Your Honours, and thank you.

23 WITNESS: MIROSLAV KVOCKA [Resumed]

24 Examined by Mr. Simic: [Cont'd]

25 Q. Mr. Kvocka, we started yesterday with a

1 discussion on your first contacts with the Omarska

2 Investigation Centre, and we will continue on that same

3 subject.

4 You said explicitly yesterday that after the

5 Omarska police station department or, rather, its

6 personnel had taken over the security duties from

7 members of the police whom you didn't know, that you

8 recognised three or four bodies, and you showed us

9 where they were on the grass opposite the restaurant in

10 the administration building.

11 Do you have any knowledge as to whether among

12 those bodies was the body of the late Mr. Anhil Dedic?

13 A. Later on, people said that one of those

14 killed was he. This was talked about among the guards,

15 who, in the meantime, had established contact with some

16 of the prisoners, and they probably heard that from

17 them.

18 Q. You did not personally know Mr. Anhil Dedic,

19 did you?

20 A. No.

21 Q. So you didn't verify because you didn't

22 approach the bodies either, did you?

23 A. No.

24 Q. So all the knowledge you have about the death

25 of the late Dedic was obtained from others who told you

1 that he was killed when attempting to escape.

2 A. Yes, that was what was said some seven or

3 eight days later.

4 Q. Mr. Kvocka, upon your first arrival in the

5 Omarska Investigation Centre, what were you wearing?

6 Did you have a uniform on or something else?

7 A. I was wearing my regular police uniform,

8 which was worn for many years in the course of --

9 during the former Yugoslavia and the former Republic of

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11 Q. So this was a standard uniform that was worn

12 for the past five, six months or more?

13 A. More than that, for longer than that.

14 Q. Were there any insignia on your uniform that

15 would indicate any measure of superiority?

16 A. No. All policemen had the same insignia on

17 their uniforms.

18 Q. Was there a difference when it came to the

19 uniform worn by the commander?

20 A. I didn't notice it.

21 Q. What kind of weapon did you have on you on

22 that occasion, and was it in any way different from the

23 standard weapon that you were issued?

24 A. I was armed with a standard weapon.

25 Q. What is that standard weapon?

1 A. A pistol.

2 Q. You were never issued an automatic rifle when

3 entering the Omarska Investigation Centre.

4 A. Yes, I did sign up for one, like all active

5 duty policemen, but I didn't carry it on me.

6 Q. Where was it?

7 A. It was usually in the premises of the police,

8 and sometimes in the official vehicle.

9 Q. We heard yesterday from you that you were a

10 highly disciplined policeman. In the course of your

11 career, did you ever violate the rules regarding the

12 way in which you wore your uniform?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do the rules envisage the obligation to wear

15 gloves, especially those gloves without fingers that we

16 know from police films?

17 A. That is not envisaged by the rules, nor was

18 it allowed for policemen to wear any such things.

19 Q. Did you ever use such gloves in Omarska?

20 A. No, never.

21 Q. In the course of your stay in Omarska, did

22 you notice that any policeman wore such gloves?

23 A. I think there were some who used such gloves

24 but not among the active-duty professional policemen.

25 Not a single one of them did I notice wearing them.

1 Anyway, there were only two or three of us active-duty

2 policemen in Omarska at the time, so I can assert that

3 with certainty.

4 Q. Can you give us the name of anyone who you

5 saw wearing such gloves because, after all, those were

6 unnatural times.

7 A. I think that one person with the same surname

8 as mine, and his name is Milojica, so his name is

9 Milojica Kvocka, I think that occasionally I did see

10 saw him wearing such gloves.

11 Q. What about Meakic as the commander of police

12 department? Did he react when he saw that? As you

13 said yourself, that that was not in line with the

14 rules.

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. You told us yesterday that Mr. Meakic arrived

17 some 15 minutes after the group or maybe at the same

18 time as the group. What was he wearing?

19 A. He was dressed in the same way as I was,

20 wearing the standard police uniform that was worn at

21 the time.

22 Q. What did Mr. Meakic have as weapons?

23 A. The same weapon as all active-duty

24 policemen.

25 Q. Did you own a rifle called pumperica? Did

1 such a rifle appear in Omarska?

2 A. No, I never had possession of such a rifle.

3 Q. Did such a rifle -- was it seen in Omarska at

4 all?

5 A. I did not see one in the parts of the

6 compound where I was.

7 Q. That first day, whether it was the 27th to

8 the 28th or the 28th to the 29th of May 1992, you said

9 that food was not provided for the detainees. Is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes, it is. No mention was made of food.

12 Q. Did Mr. Meakic inform you and the other

13 guards what was the plan regarding food?

14 A. You mean on the first day?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. No, he didn't say anything.

17 Q. Did the guards have food provided for that

18 day?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did Mr. Meakic take any steps to find, as

21 donors, one of the well-known businessmen to get some

22 food on that first day for the detainees?

23 A. No, not on that first day.

24 Q. When did he contact Mr. Andzic in connection

25 with such matters?

1 A. That was the following day.

2 Q. We'll come back to that when we go on to the

3 next day. I'm talking about the first day now.

4 MS. HOLLIS: Excuse me, Your Honour. Your

5 Honour, we've been quite patient in regard to leading

6 questions and questions which introduce facts which are

7 not in evidence, but now that we're in Omarska itself,

8 we would object to the continuing leading nature of the

9 questions that are being asked.

10 For example, the last question was: "When

11 did" -- first he said: "Did Mr. Meakic take any steps

12 to find one of the well-known businessmen to get some

13 food on the first day for the detainees?" That, we

14 would allow as a lead-in, but the next question: "And

15 when did he contact Mr. Andzic?" That's a fact that is

16 not in evidence. It is a leading question.

17 We would ask that for Omarska, at least,

18 counsel allow the witness to testify and he refrain

19 from these kinds of questions. Thank you.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

21 do you have any reaction to this objection?

22 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I accept the

23 objection and I shall pay closer attention to the

24 wording of my questions, but I thought that we had

25 covered most of these questions together with

1 Mr. Keegan in the interview with Mr. Kvocka. So these

2 things are something that the Prosecution is familiar

3 with. I had no intention to lead, and I shall try and

4 be more specific in my questions.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

6 please. Put non-leading questions to the witness so

7 that the witness can testify properly.

8 Thank you very much, Mr. Simic.

9 Thank you, Ms. Hollis, for your objection and

10 remark.

11 Please continue.

12 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 Q. On that first day, were members of the

14 security replaced by new persons?

15 A. Yes. In the evening there was a change of

16 shift. The entire personnel was replaced and that is

17 when I also went home.

18 Q. Who brought those new personnel, that new

19 shift?

20 A. They came together again with Zeljko Meakic,

21 because on that first day, he would come and go on

22 several occasions to the investigation centre, to and

23 from the investigation centre.

24 Q. Do you believe that while he was absent he

25 was organising things?

1 A. I don't know anything about that

2 specifically. I can just assume that he probably

3 contacted some people in positions of responsibility to

4 find out what was happening, because it was my

5 impression that many things were not clear to him

6 either.

7 Q. That first day that you spent in the Omarska

8 Investigation Centre, did investigators appear?

9 A. No.

10 Q. A moment ago, you said you went home to rest

11 overnight. When did you come back to Omarska?

12 A. The next day, in the morning.

13 Q. Did you find Mr. Meakic there?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. Was a change of shift organised again; that

16 is, the night-shift being over, so new reinforcements

17 had to come in? Who was doing that?

18 A. Zeljko Meakic.

19 Q. So the new morning shift appeared, who were

20 to work that whole day?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was food organised for the detainees on that

23 day? Because you told us that they were there.

24 A. On that day, as far as I was able to see,

25 Milan Andzic from Omarska, as a private individual who

1 was a wealthy, well-known businessman, brought several

2 sacks full of sandwiches.

3 Q. Those sandwiches, were they distributed among

4 the detainees on that day?

5 A. Yes, they were.

6 Q. Who did the distribution?

7 A. The policemen providing security. And I know

8 that there were remarks that the food was insufficient.

9 Q. How was the food for the policemen organised

10 on that second day?

11 A. In the investigating centre itself there was

12 no food provided for the policemen on that day either.

13 Q. Did you notice whether some policemen had

14 brought some food with them from their homes?

15 A. Yes. That was visible. Almost everyone had

16 a parcel in his pocket, a sandwich or something to

17 eat.

18 Q. Do you know whether the policemen were told

19 that there would be no food provided and that they

20 should bring some from home?

21 A. I don't know anything about that.

22 Q. Mr. Kvocka, we have been talking about two

23 days now. In the course of those two days, did any new

24 detainees appear in any way at all?

25 A. On that first day, the 28th to the 29th,

1 there were none. On the 30th, on the second day, the

2 30th of May, late in the afternoon, sometime around

3 5.00 or 6.00 p.m., some people arrived, that is,

4 detainees, in several buses.

5 Q. Did anything unusual happen in Prijedor

6 before these new detainees were brought in on several

7 buses, as you said?

8 A. On that day, at around midday, amongst us

9 policemen, the news was spreading that there had been

10 an attack on Prijedor. There were announcements to

11 that effect on the radio, some people heard these

12 announcements, and listening to the radio that we had

13 in one of the premises, according to the conversations

14 being conducted within the territory of Prijedor, one

15 could infer that a conflict was ongoing there.

16 Q. This radio station that you mentioned, we'll

17 be coming back to that -- the radio transmitter is

18 something we'll be coming back to.

19 My question is: Was an announcement issued

20 to members of the security, that is, members of the

21 Omarska Police Department? Was this announcement made

22 to them, or did you learn it by listening in to others

23 and their conversations over the radio transmitter?

24 A. There were no announcements made to the

25 investigating centre itself. We were just able to

1 overhear what other people were saying in the territory

2 of Prijedor, because the same frequencies were being

3 used.

4 Q. Mr. Kvocka, on the 30th of May, 1992, did the

5 members of the Omarska police station department

6 receive any kind of news, through Meakic or anyone

7 else, that new detainees were arriving?

8 A. No. I simply heard nothing about that, nor

9 did anyone inform me about that.

10 Q. Was it a surprise for the security personnel

11 to see these new detainees arriving?

12 A. Yes. We were all asking ourselves, "What is

13 this?" and "What's happening?" and "Why again?"

14 Q. Among these men, was Mr. Meakic there?

15 A. Yes. In the evening, on that day, he was

16 present too.

17 Q. Mr. Kvocka, let's go back for a moment

18 because we omitted something. What were you doing

19 during that day until the arrival of these new

20 detainees?

21 A. I was on duty, as I had been the previous

22 day, with the same orders from Zeljko, to lend a

23 helping hand to the reserve policemen, should they need

24 advice in performing their duties.

25 Q. On that day, did you move around on the

1 pista, or did you spend the day inside?

2 A. I spent most of the day outside.

3 MS. HOLLIS: Excuse me, Your Honour. I

4 apologise for interrupting, but again we have counsel

5 basically testifying for the witness, putting in facts

6 that are not in evidence. We would ask that he not ask

7 leading questions and perhaps confine himself to asking

8 the witness what the witness did, instead of stating

9 what he believes the witness did.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You heard

11 the objection, Mr. Simic.

12 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] It's my mistake.

13 I'll rephrase the question, Your Honour.

14 Q. What were you doing, Mr. Kvocka, during that

15 day?

16 A. That day, the 30th of May, I spent doing the

17 same things as I had done the previous day. I was on

18 duty in the investigation centre, having the same

19 assignments that I had been given by Mr. Meakic. I

20 spent the time mostly outside, on the compound. Among

21 the reserve policemen, no one came to ask for my

22 assistance or advice.

23 Q. Where were you at the time the buses with the

24 new detainees arrived?

25 A. I was in front of the entrance to the

1 administration building.

2 Q. Who escorted this convoy of detainees?

3 A. The escort consisted of the police officers

4 from Prijedor -- this I know because I recognised some

5 of them as career policemen -- and also there were some

6 military police. In other words, it was a mixed

7 escort.

8 Q. Were any of the commanding police officers

9 from the Prijedor police station among them?

10 A. No, not of the top commanders whom I knew.

11 Q. What happened to the detainees who were

12 brought in by bus?

13 A. They were taken by these police officers who

14 escorted them to certain rooms.

15 Q. Were only the escorting police officers

16 involved in this, in other words, those who were not

17 members of the Omarska police station?

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry

19 for interrupting you. The question that you have just

20 asked is clearly a leading question, if you say "Was it

21 these policemen who were doing this or that?" You must

22 ask "Who did such and such?" If you're asking, "Did

23 these police officers do this?" the answer will be

24 yes. So you must ask, "Who did such and such?"

25 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I

1 will rephrase the question again, accepting the

2 suggestion with gratitude.

3 A. It was the police officers from the escort

4 who took the newly arrived prisoners to the places

5 where they were first accommodated, and then they were

6 also assisted by the police officers who were already

7 there as security, in other words, in that area where

8 they were placed.

9 Q. In those buses, did you recognise any

10 individuals?

11 A. On that day, on the 30th, these early

12 arrivals -- the first arrival of those buses, yes,

13 there were people I recognised, people whom I

14 occasionally would meet in town. And those who were

15 the most familiar to me, if I may go on, who had been

16 brought in at that time, were my wife's three

17 brothers: Adnan Crnalic, called Dado; Rizak Crnalic,

18 also known as Rica; and Nedzad Crnalic, also known as

19 Necko.

20 Before I observed them, a police officer, who

21 was an active duty police officer from Prijedor, whom I

22 knew from before, Obrenko Sajdel, pointed them out to

23 me, he said that they were there.

24 Q. Were you surprised by this fact?

25 A. I was absolutely surprised, and I started

1 asking myself why were they brought in, why were any of

2 these people brought to me, but especially them. I was

3 upset.

4 Q. What was your reaction in this situation?

5 A. I simply separated them out off -- I

6 separated them out off to the side, and about ten

7 minutes later I put them in an official vehicle and I

8 took them out of there. I took them to my family house

9 in Omarska, in other words, to my parents' house in

10 Omarska.

11 Q. Did you ask anyone for permission to do so?

12 A. No, not at the time. Zeljko was somewhere in

13 the vicinity, but I did not go over to him to ask him

14 anything. I did it spontaneously, if I can put it that

15 way.

16 Q. Was that a violation of rules?

17 A. You could say that this was some kind of a

18 violation of rules, because I was taking a step which I

19 was not entitled to.

20 Q. When you took your brothers-in-law home, did

21 you come back to the centre?

22 A. Yes, briefly. After I dropped them off

23 there -- and let me say right away that my wife and my

24 children were already there in my parents' house, and

25 we had a scene there between them because my wife had

1 also heard on the radio that the general war had

2 started and that bad things were happening in Prijedor,

3 and she became quite frightened for her family and for

4 her own safety in Prijedor on that day.

5 Q. Did your wife know where her brothers were

6 during these operations?

7 A. She knew nothing until I brought them to my

8 parents' home, and that is where she saw them for the

9 first time.

10 Q. After you went back to Omarska, how long did

11 you stay there?

12 A. After my return, I stayed there very briefly

13 because Zeljko told me that I was free and that I

14 should report back the next morning.

15 Q. Did you tell him about your action with

16 regard to your brothers-in-law?

17 A. No, I did not specifically, nor did I tell

18 him anything about it, but I concluded that he must

19 have received information about it while I was gone.

20 Q. Let us try to stay in this area for a while.

21 You're talking about the Omarska police station

22 security. In these two days that you have just spent

23 there, was there any additional security there?

24 A. In those two days, I noticed no other

25 security except for the police officers from the

1 Omarska precinct.

2 Q. You mentioned that there was a security

3 guard. The company guard, was at the front gate.

4 A. Yes. That was a single company guard who was

5 not part of the police security.

6 Q. How long was this front gate from the

7 administration building? You said that yesterday.

8 A. About 1.5, 2 kilometres.

9 Q. Very well. In addition to this company

10 guard, was there another guard who was added at the

11 front gate?

12 A. No. There were no other guards except for

13 that single guard at the front gate.

14 Q. Very well. Let's move on to the 31st now.

15 Can you describe how the guard shifts were organised?

16 Without repeating what you said before.

17 A. On the 31st I reported to work again. I was

18 met by Zeljko. He told me the same thing, that is,

19 repeated the same orders. He said that I was duty

20 officer and that he was just going to take a little

21 rest, and during the day he had a lot of obligations,

22 that the number of detainees had increased, that he had

23 to do something with respect to increasing security and

24 perhaps make certain changes in the method of work, and

25 he left, but he told me he would just take a quick rest

1 and that he would come back very shortly.

2 Q. Was the food supply organised? This is now

3 the third day. Were detainees getting any food?

4 A. On that third day, the food for detainees had

5 already been provided. It was distributed.

6 Q. Who organised the food, that is, the

7 provisions for the detainees?

8 A. I don't know much about this organisation. I

9 know only that as early as 10.00 or 11.00 that morning,

10 the containers with prepared food had arrived to this

11 restaurant which we had shown yesterday, and the food

12 distribution to the detainees had begun.

13 Q. Did you notice who had delivered the food,

14 members of what structure?

15 A. It was brought in by a company vehicle, I

16 think a vehicle belonging to that same company. I

17 think it was a yellow -- painted yellow. I think that

18 all mining company vehicles were painted yellow.

19 Q. So the vehicle was owned by the company?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Who drove this vehicle and to what

22 organisation or structure did he belong?

23 A. I don't know, but he was not a member of the

24 police force. He was not a policeman. He wore a blue

25 worker's suit; he did not wear any uniform.

1 Q. Did the company provide for food? Did they

2 organise food distribution?

3 A. Previously, during the regular operation of

4 the company, they had organised cafeteria and food

5 distribution for the entire company. This food

6 preparation station was right by the front gate.

7 Q. Where was it located?

8 A. It was right by the front gate, about 1.5 to

9 2 kilometres.

10 Q. Did you notice what that first meal was?

11 What did it consist of?

12 A. No. I paid no attention.

13 Q. Did the members of the security receive any

14 food that day?

15 A. Food was made available to them if they

16 wanted to, and I think some of them did take it.

17 Q. This was on the 31st. Were new detainees

18 brought in? Did new buses arrive?

19 A. Yes. Sometime in the afternoon, somewhere

20 around 1700, between 1700 and 1800, a couple of buses

21 arrived with men who were then detained in this

22 complex.

23 Q. How many buses were there?

24 A. There were three or four buses, I'm sure.

25 Q. Were they filled with people?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Who was escorting those buses?

3 A. Those buses were escorted by police officers

4 from Prijedor mixed in with military personnel. Some

5 were described as military police and some described

6 them as civilians, but those terms were used

7 interchangeably in those days.

8 Q. Did you recognise any of the police

9 officials, that is, Prijedor police officials who may

10 have been escorting this convoy?

11 A. No, I did not recognise any of the police

12 officials from Prijedor that I knew.

13 Q. Did anyone abuse or mistreat detainees as

14 they were getting off the buses?

15 A. As they were getting off the buses, I did not

16 notice any mistreatment, but then at one point a very

17 ugly and bad incident happened.

18 Q. What incident?

19 A. I will describe this incident. People

20 started getting off one of the buses. I believe that

21 in front of it was an empty bus which had already been

22 emptied of people, and behind the bus from which people

23 were disembarking there was another bus where people

24 were still waiting to get off. As they were stepping

25 off that middle bus, at one point a vehicle appeared

1 from the direction where one entered the entire

2 compound and a vehicle approached these buses. The

3 driver came out of this vehicle, which was some kind of

4 a pick-up truck, with a rifle in his hand and raged.

5 He said, "Serbs, move away," and he started shooting at

6 the people who were getting off the bus.

7 Q. Mr. Kvocka, in order not to go back through

8 the details, maybe we can just stop here. We need a

9 description of this rifle. I know this is a very ugly

10 scene but try to just concentrate on this now?

11 A. This was a rifle known as PAM, very similar

12 to a regular automatic rifle but with a somewhat longer

13 barrel. At the top of the barrel there is a bipod,

14 something that can be used as support, as far as I

15 understand its use.

16 Q. The man who jumped out of this vehicle, who

17 was enraged, can you tell us anything else about him

18 that is out of the ordinary?

19 A. At the moment when I started towards him, I

20 could notice that he was quite inebriated.

21 Q. Very well. Can you go on now from the moment

22 when he started shooting? Did he shoot at the people?

23 A. When I noticed him coming out and raising his

24 weapon, I started towards him from his side, but he had

25 already begun shooting. I approached him from his

1 side, and the casings were already falling in my

2 direction, and one brushed my face and scratched my

3 face.

4 I jumped in front of him about two metres.

5 He still had his barrel trained in front. I opened my

6 jacket, and I opened it and I told him, "What's with

7 you, man? These are civilians. If you need to, shoot

8 at me." For several seconds he stared at me. I did

9 not know what he was going to do. However, he slowly

10 put down the weapon and started crying, and he said,

11 "They killed my brother."

12 As he started putting down the weapon, I

13 seized the weapon and I yanked it out of his arms.

14 Zeljko Meakic then approached, and I handed him the

15 rifle.

16 A police investigator then approached, and

17 later I was told that he had watched this incident from

18 a window. Zeljko then turned over the rifle to him,

19 and with the assistance of several other policemen, he

20 took away this man and he basically arrested him, as I

21 would call it in police parlance.

22 Q. I know that you were both upset and

23 frightened. Did you see the consequences of this

24 shooting? Did you see how many people were hit and

25 were they seriously injured?

1 A. When he shot at people before I stepped in

2 front of him, five or six people were injured. They

3 all fell to the ground.

4 As soon as Zeljko took this person away,

5 together with some other reserve officers, I went to

6 see if we could help these people, and it was clear

7 that there were some very badly wounded ones among

8 these five or six people. There were some who were

9 sitting on the ground and holding onto the wounds, but

10 there were a couple of them who were on the ground

11 without any signs of life.

12 As the reservists stayed with the less

13 seriously wounded, I went to the room on the top floor

14 where we had a radio transmitter, where we could call

15 in to the Omarska police precinct, and I called the

16 duty officer and I told him to immediately go to the

17 health centre, which is about 50 metres from the police

18 precinct. There was no other link to the health centre

19 anyway.

20 Q. Just a moment, please. Can you tell the

21 Chamber who was the duty officer in the precinct of

22 whom you requested to provide an ambulance?

23 A. This was Boro Delic, called Baja.

24 Q. Did an ambulance arrive? When did it arrive,

25 and who was the driver of this ambulance or what type

1 of vehicle was it?

2 A. After awhile, about 15 minutes, an ambulance

3 arrived but not a regular civilian ambulance vehicle.

4 It was a much larger vehicle, a military ambulance

5 vehicle, drab olive in colour, which had a lot of space

6 for the wounded, and it was driven by a man from

7 Omarska, a young man called Rosic. That's his last

8 name. But we all knew him by his nickname which was

9 Mingo. Those individuals were immediately carried into

10 the vehicle, and Mingo drove them off in the direction

11 of the front gate.

12 Q. Who else was injured during this bad

13 incident?

14 A. The active duty policeman Branislav Bojic was

15 also grazed by a bullet casing, like I was, and

16 Miroslav Nisic, another police officer, was hit in the

17 heel. The injury was such that he could not support

18 himself on that leg.

19 Q. And was he also provided assistance?

20 A. Yes, but he was taken in another vehicle, not

21 in the same vehicle as those injured detainees were.

22 He had an official vehicle made available to him.

23 Q. You said that Mr. Bojic was there. Who else

24 was present during this serious incident?

25 A. Among those present was a man called Rosic,

1 who was not a member of the Omarska police precinct,

2 but he was a company employee. He was a maintenance

3 person, I think, at some water pump stations or

4 something, he was employed there. He was in the

5 vicinity, I noticed him and his son, who was also not a

6 member of the police force but who apparently had just

7 come to visit him and bring him some food.

8 Q. Was Zeljko Meakic present at the time of this

9 incident, or did he appear later?

10 A. At the time when I took away the rifle from

11 the person who was shooting, I saw Zeljko right next to

12 me.

13 Q. How long did the medical attention or therapy

14 of Miroslav Nisic take?

15 A. As far as I know, Miroslav Nisic never

16 rejoined the police force following this injury because

17 it was a very complicated injury which he sustained to

18 his heel, and long after this, I saw him hobble.

19 Q. What was the attitude of the other members of

20 the reserve police force towards that incident?

21 A. Well, some of the people that I talked to

22 directly were astounded, one and all. Others, some of

23 them would say, "Go to Gradacac and fight there. Don't

24 shoot at civilians," that kind of thing. They were

25 angry, they were bitter. They asked themselves, "If

1 things carry on this way, how are we going to be able

2 to work at all, how are we going to do our job," things

3 like that. The comments were along those lines.

4 Q. What happened to that individual after the

5 shooting?

6 A. I only know what happened in those couple of

7 minutes. He went off together with the inspector and

8 Zeljko, he went off with them, and after that, he was

9 taken away from the compound by the policemen. What

10 happened later on, I don't know.

11 Q. How did you yourself feel, faced with a

12 situation of this kind?

13 A. Well, it's difficult to describe my feelings

14 after so many years, ten years, but traces, of course,

15 remain. It was a great shock for me. It was the first

16 time in my entire police career that I was faced with a

17 situation of this kind and conduct of this kind, with a

18 killing before my very eyes. Briefly speaking, I was

19 confused. There was total confusion in my head.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

21 I see that Mr. Kvocka is a little tired. It is his

22 third day of testimony. Perhaps we have to bear that

23 in mind.

24 But in any event, before the break, I should

25 like to share with you a few thoughts. We are truly at

1 the beginning of this trial, we are going to have many

2 days of work, and I think it is always important to

3 establish or to forecast a few things which can be

4 contained within certain rules.

5 In order to establish certain rules of

6 communication amongst us, I should like to go back to

7 this question of leading or non-leading questions. I

8 think you, as the attorneys, are professionals -- I

9 mean attorneys on both sides -- highly experienced,

10 highly competent lawyers, and you know very well, from

11 the point of view of verbal communication, what is a

12 leading question and a non-leading question.

13 I think that the goodwill of Ms. Hollis and

14 Mr. Keegan have allowed certain other leading questions

15 to pass. On the whole, I must tell you, Mr. Simic,

16 that you have done a very good job of your

17 examination-in-chief, but I should like to make two

18 points to refine the criteria. Instead of asking "Were

19 you surprised?" what you should ask is "What was your

20 reaction?" Because in the totality of a whole range of

21 reactions, there can be a wide variety of reactions,

22 joy, surprise, et cetera. If you choose one and focus

23 on surprise, then the answer can be either yes or no.

24 If it is yes, one will never know whether there were

25 any other reactions; if no, again, we will not know.

1 So I think that is one example.

2 Another example that I would like to use is

3 the following: Does this represent a violation of the

4 rules? For instance, the question should have been,

5 how do rules provide for such a situation? Otherwise,

6 if there are several possibilities, you are obviously

7 choosing one.

8 There is really no need for me to explain

9 these things to you because you are highly competent,

10 highly experienced, you know these things very well,

11 but in the course of a conversation, one may have an

12 immediate reaction which does not necessarily fit

13 within this framework and can be considered a leading

14 question, and we understand that.

15 But a second point that I should like to

16 consider with you is the following: In principle, a

17 person, a witness who's testifying for several days, I

18 think it is really too much to ask for him to testify

19 for more than an hour at a time. It's different when

20 we have a witness coming for one day only. So I would

21 like to give you the following suggestion:

22 Psychologists, the people working on these things, say

23 that after an hour and ten minutes of work, the

24 concentration, the efficiency, declines. So there is

25 no point in insisting on working for longer than one

1 hour and ten minutes at a time.

2 As a general orientation, I would suggest the

3 following: We'll work for one hour ten, one hour

4 twenty minutes, and it is up to you, as soon as we

5 reach one hour ten minutes -- we're talking about the

6 normal situation, when witnesses come here for one day

7 or so -- between one hour ten and one hour twenty as a

8 working period, you choose the moment where we should

9 break, because I think it is also important to bear in

10 mind that there are segments of information that one

11 wants to cover in a certain period.

12 So you choose the moment in between one hour

13 ten, one hour twenty to make the interruption, or I

14 shall show you this sign [indicates], the time-out

15 sign, by hand, indicating that we could take a break.

16 But it is up to you to decide. So I think from the

17 point of view on ensuring an orderly, quiet

18 proceedings, we should bear all these things in mind.

19 There's one other thing I wanted to say. I

20 prefer to have more shorter breaks, but I know that

21 from the point of the accused it is complicated to have

22 such short breaks, and therefore respecting the right

23 of the accused to a break as well, we need at least a

24 20-minute break for them to be able to leave the

25 courtroom, to take a rest, to be able to follow their

1 trial.

2 So as we go along and come up with questions

3 of this kind, we can regulate them so as to have a

4 certain code of communication, so we will know in

5 advance what is going to happen and what the solution

6 is.

7 Let us now have a 20-minute break.

8 --- Recess taken at 11.13 a.m.

9 --- On resuming at 11.40 a.m.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be

11 seated. Mr. Kvocka, you may sit down too.

12 Mr. Simic, it's your turn. Please continue.

13 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your

14 Honours, for the suggestions you have made. Despite

15 all our experience, this is one new experience for us,

16 and we always learn something new and are faced with

17 new situations. So thank you, Your Honours.

18 Q. Mr. Kvocka, what happened afterwards? How

19 did you organise the rest of your day?

20 A. After that, when I left my three

21 brothers-in-law in the house and after the short

22 conversations that we had and the meetings with their

23 sister, that is to say, my wife, and that little -- and

24 the confusion over that whole situation, they were

25 happy to see each other again, and sorry and sad

1 because they didn't know what happened to the others.

2 I returned to the investigation centre. I

3 found Zeljko there again. It was 7.00 or half past

4 7.00 in the evening by that time. He told me, because

5 I was working that entire day, that I should go off

6 duty, on leave.

7 Q. This brings us to the 1st of June. Could you

8 describe your activities in the course of that day, the

9 1st of June 1992?

10 A. I returned and slept through the night, spent

11 the night in my parents' place in Omarska, together

12 with all the other people there. On the 1st, I went

13 back to my job in the morning once again.

14 However, in the evening, the previous

15 evening, we were, of course, all there in the house,

16 and I was in a difficult psychological situation. I

17 remember that I didn't really have much inclination to

18 talk to anybody else, so that my wife tried her best to

19 make me enter into the conversation. She would ask me

20 whether I would like a cup of coffee or things like

21 that, but I just wanted to be left alone. I laid down

22 on the floor in the room, turned towards the floor, and

23 I tried to collect my thoughts and to see what I was

24 going to do in the future if faced with that kind of

25 situation because, quite obviously, there were going to

1 be a lot of problems for my family, my wife's family.

2 I succeeded in having a bit of a rest in the

3 course of the night, and in the morning, on the 1st, I

4 returned.

5 Q. To your job?

6 A. Well, I think that when I arrived on duty, I

7 felt even worse than I had the previous night. Zeljko

8 saw that there was something wrong with me. We had a

9 short conversation, and I had the feeling that he

10 understood me. He told me that I should take two or

11 three days off, not to come to work for two or three

12 days.

13 So I went back to Omarska, to the house in

14 which my brothers-in-law were accommodated and my

15 parents, and we discussed the situation. They were all

16 crying. They wondered what had happened to their

17 wives, to their mother who had stayed on in Prijedor,

18 what had happened to one of their children. One of the

19 brothers-in-law had a child at the time. They wondered

20 what had happened to them. That's what we did, more or

21 less.

22 Q. What happened next?

23 A. My wife and I decided to go to Prijedor at

24 this point and to go directly to the house of my

25 mother-in-law, but we didn't find anybody at home.

1 So we went to my flat, which is at Pecani,

2 and that's where we found them; that is to say, there

3 were two daughters-in-law, that is, the wives of my

4 wife's brothers. We found their wives, two of the

5 wives there. We also came across my mother-in-law, my

6 wife's mother. Her name is Hajra. And there were some

7 more elderly woman there as well. I knew some of them,

8 others I did not.

9 At the same time, like us, they were happy to

10 see us. But at the same time, they were a little

11 frightened, and they had many questions that they

12 wanted to ask us, and wondered what had happened to

13 their sons or husbands. So they were worried about

14 their whereabouts. We managed to calm them down and to

15 tell them that they were safe, at least for the time

16 being, that we felt they were safe, and that we would

17 see what would happened.

18 So I used those two or three days that I was

19 given leave to go back to Omarska. I took some food

20 from my parents. They had a large garden in Omarska,

21 because it's a village, a rural area. It's not purely

22 a town. So you could grow things, and you didn't have

23 to buy everything in the shops. So we took these

24 things from the vegetable garden to Prijedor.

25 There I came across my mother-in-law in her

1 own home during the day, but once again there were

2 quite a lot of neighbours there, mostly womenfolk,

3 elderly women, her friends, and I knew perhaps two or

4 three of them, but there were at least eight or ten of

5 them there at the time. They told me that they had

6 come to my mother-in-law's because they felt more or

7 less safe while they were in her house.

8 The wives of my brothers-in-law were still in

9 my own flat, so we took them some food as well. So

10 that's how those two or three days went by.

11 Q. Mr. Kvocka, you say that there were eight to

12 ten elderly women neighbours and that they felt safer

13 in your mother-in-law's house. Why?

14 A. Well, my mother-in-law would say to me that

15 when they come to her, they always ask whether they can

16 come in and that they think they would be safe there.

17 And they say, "Well, your son-in-law is a Serb, so they

18 probably won't wish to harm us."

19 Q. Why were your sisters-in-law not in their own

20 houses?

21 A. Well, they did live in the same house earlier

22 on, that is to say, where my mother-in-law lived, in

23 that same house. But there wasn't enough room for

24 everybody, and they too felt safer in my flat.

25 However, we really didn't know how safe it was. That

1 was a debatable point, because when these people turned

2 up in my flat, I met some people standing guard in

3 front of the entrance. They were reservists, reserve

4 policemen. I knew them just in passing. They were

5 just acquaintances. And they would say to me, "What

6 are you doing?" I apologise for the expressions that

7 I'm going to use; I apologise to the Trial Chamber.

8 They said, "What are you doing, you fag? You're

9 keeping flats in your -- you're keeping Turks in your

10 flat," and they would use similar derogatory terms.

11 "You bastard," they would say to me.

12 Q. Mr. Kvocka, I know that it is difficult for

13 all of us to talk about those truly terrible times

14 which we all hope will never recur, but I think that

15 this is a good point to broach a very important

16 question: Who organised the camp, how everything

17 functioned. To do this, I would like to resort to some

18 documents which I consider to be very significant and

19 which will help us to understand the whole workings and

20 system of the centre.

21 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] It is DP55. The

22 document is DP55, and I would like to ask the usher to

23 distribute the document.

24 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Defence

25 Exhibit D17/1, and D17/1A for the English version.

1 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. Kvocka, you have in front of you a letter

3 of the public security station of Prijedor, dated the

4 31st of May 1992. When and where did you see this

5 letter for the first time?

6 A. I saw this letter for the first time when the

7 gentleman from the Prosecutor's Office showed me it.

8 Q. Mr. Kvocka, you have probably read the

9 letter, so I'm not going to ask you that. Who was the

10 founder of the collection and investigating centre in

11 the Omarska compound, according to this letter?

12 A. According to this letter, I am able to

13 conclude -- but I'd rather say that this is an order,

14 because it states that something is being ordered. A

15 letter is something different.

16 The founder of the investigating centre or

17 camp or whatever you like to call it was the crisis

18 staff or the chief of the public security station, Simo

19 Drljaca, whose signature is at the end of this letter

20 and who is the person who issued this order. But in

21 view of the fact that he refers to a decision taken by

22 the crisis staff in this particular order, then I

23 cannot differentiate as to who was the founder and who

24 was the commander of the camp.

25 Judging by the general situation that

1 prevailed at the time and in my talks with people, I

2 should also like to say that that could have been Simo

3 Drljaca, in view of the fact that everybody used to say

4 that without his permission, nothing could be done.

5 Q. Mr. Kvocka, does this order contain any

6 orders issued to the police precinct of the police

7 station of Omarska?

8 A. Yes, it does.

9 Q. What did Mr. Drljaca, in fact, order the

10 police station of Omarska to do?

11 A. Mr. Drljaca -- I think it is in paragraph

12 6 -- is issuing strict orders to the security services

13 at the collection centre, and I see another term used

14 for the camp. Here it states "collection centre":

15 "Shall be provided by the Omarska police station."

16 Q. Mr. Kvocka, what does it mean to provide

17 security for the collection centre?

18 A. Well, briefly speaking, it means that the

19 policemen belonging to this police station and its

20 precinct are duty-bound to provide security, that is to

21 say, prevent individuals from escaping.

22 Q. Does this order contained in paragraph 6

23 imply that it is -- does it imply any organisational

24 activities for the policemen of that department?

25 A. No that does not emanate from this paragraph.

1 Q. This document was dated the 31st of May

2 1992. On the last page, it stipulates to whom the

3 copies were sent; that is to say, which individuals

4 received copies of this order from Mr. Drljaca. Who

5 received this order of Mr. Drljaca, dated the 31st of

6 May 1992 for the security services. Can you recognise

7 the signature of the individuals who received these

8 orders on behalf of the security service?

9 A. Yes. Under number 1, it states that Zeljko

10 Meakic took over the order, and it is his signature for

11 the security service. I also know the signature under

12 number 2.

13 Q. Whose signature is that?

14 A. It is the signature of Dusan Jankovic.

15 Q. What was Mr. Meakic on that particular day?

16 A. He was the commander of the police department

17 in Omarska.

18 Q. In keeping with the rules and regulations of

19 the service, bearing in mind the orders contained in

20 paragraph 6, that this order should be received by the

21 commander of the police station of Omarska?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is he the responsible individual for

24 organising security, the security provided for by the

25 police station of Omarska?

1 A. Yes, he is responsible for the policemen.

2 Q. Mr. Kvocka, we broached the subject of

3 security, security by the policemen of the security

4 station of Omarska. Was that the sole form of security

5 that existed at the time you were there?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Can you tell us --

8 A. After my return from, let us say my leave,

9 which wasn't really a resting period for me, it was the

10 three or four days that I found very difficult, but

11 noticed, on the first day after I had come back to

12 work, I noticed certain changes that had taken place in

13 the work of the police at the investigating centre.

14 And there were other changes as well with respect to

15 the security system for the investigation centre.

16 Would you like me to tell you what these

17 changes were?

18 Q. What were the changes that had taken place in

19 the overall security system at the centre, and what

20 innovations were made?

21 A. Well, as soon as I went through the entrance

22 gate, I noticed that in addition to the company guard,

23 from the mine, that is, there was also a policeman

24 standing there.

25 Q. Was he a member of the station?

1 A. Yes, he was, the Omarska Police Department.

2 Q. Please continue.

3 A. When I moved towards the investigation

4 centre, when I was halfway there, that is to say,

5 midway between the entrance gate and the building,

6 there was a facility of some kind, a sort of petrol

7 pump or something like that, that's what it was

8 referred to, and there were three or four soldiers

9 standing there of the Territorial Defence. Because at

10 the time we used the terms -- either we referred to it

11 as the army or the Territorial Defence, both these two

12 terms were used interchangeably.

13 Q. Mr. Kvocka, at this second guard checkpoint,

14 during your stay in Omarska, was there a member of the

15 department of the Omarska police station at any time?

16 A. No, there was not.

17 Q. Were there any other changes with respect to

18 the overall compound that you noted?

19 A. It was obvious that on the broader area,

20 especially on this side here [indicates], where that

21 green surface is on the model, but quite far off, that

22 there were also groups of two or three men belonging to

23 the army, military personnel. And afterwards, people

24 would say that groups of people were all around the

25 compound, although we couldn't see that standing in

1 front of the compound itself.

2 Q. What did you actually see among those

3 security officers?

4 A. I saw those that I had to pass by, and I saw

5 these others at the edge of the meadow, and also at one

6 other place. There is another access road here

7 [indicates], in this direction, one might say at right

8 angles in relation to the road leading from the main

9 entrance, and there were military there too, but some

10 distance away from the administration building.

11 Q. How far away?

12 A. Some 50 metres.

13 Q. Were there any other new security guards

14 within the compound?

15 A. Within the compound, among the guards, the

16 policemen, I noticed quite a number of new faces. But

17 they were not properly dressed as policemen, they were

18 mostly wearing military uniforms, green uniforms, the

19 uniforms worn by the former Yugoslav army.

20 Q. Who were those men? Did they belong to your

21 police department or were they new?

22 A. Zeljko said that they were people who had

23 been attached from the Territorial Defence to assist in

24 providing security, and some of them had been newly

25 mobilised reserve policemen. However, there was

1 another group of policemen in addition to these who

2 were there at the time.

3 Q. Who were they?

4 A. A group of policemen wearing blue police

5 uniforms but in camouflage colours of blue. So they

6 weren't plain blue, but coloured in different shades,

7 but blue. And we were told that these were members of

8 a special unit from Banja Luka.

9 Q. How many men were in this unit?

10 A. It is difficult for me to estimate the

11 number, but there were at least 30 of them. They also

12 had their two combat vehicles there. There were the

13 complete crews of these vehicles, and these vehicles

14 are manned by four to five men each.

15 Q. Those combat vehicles, in the former system

16 that you're familiar with, did they belong to the

17 standard police armaments?

18 A. No. The police in those days did not have

19 combat vehicles as part of its standard equipment.

20 Q. Could you describe those two combat vehicles

21 and the weapons they were armed with?

22 A. One of them is known, I think, as a personnel

23 carrier. It is used for the transportation of men on

24 the inside, and it has caterpillar wheels, not normal

25 rubber tyres, one of these vehicles.

1 Q. Was it an armoured vehicle?

2 A. Yes, there's armour on the roof with a weapon

3 mounted, a certain type of weapon of which I don't know

4 the name.

5 Q. So it was a large-calibre weapon?

6 A. Yes, but also large in size, larger than a

7 normal rifle.

8 Q. Would it be a machine-gun, a small cannon?

9 A. Something like a machine-gun. Something like

10 a machine-gun, I think.

11 Q. And the second vehicle, could you describe

12 that one?

13 A. The second vehicle is what is known as BOV, I

14 think that is the expression used. It is also a

15 vehicle equipped on the roof with a heavy-calibre

16 weapon, but it has rubber tyres, not caterpillar wheels

17 like the previous one.

18 Q. Who was the leader or commander of this

19 special police unit that you came across among the

20 security force?

21 A. During those first seven days that this group

22 was there for, the leader was a certain man called

23 Maric.

24 Q. So if I understand you correctly, that group

25 was replaced later on.

1 A. Yes, they were replaced about six or seven

2 days later, and another group appeared, again from

3 Banja Luka, wearing the same kind of uniforms and with

4 the same vehicles. Their leader was somebody called

5 Strazivuk, that was his surname, Strazivuk.

6 Q. Talking about the system of security, could

7 you comment on the relationship between Meakic and

8 Maric or Strazivuk? Who was the superior to whom?

9 A. I think neither of the two could give orders

10 to the other.

11 Q. When entering the Omarska compound, what is

12 the Omarska police controlling through its members?

13 Which access points?

14 A. It was controlling only the entrance gate.

15 This policeman who was now positioned there, he could

16 control entry into the compound.

17 Q. What about the other entrances? Who

18 controlled the possibility of entering the compound

19 from other directions?

20 A. The military.

21 Q. What were members of the special police from

22 Banja Luka actually doing in practice? What were their

23 assignments?

24 A. I have no idea.

25 Q. Did they have guard posts?

1 A. No, except for these two vehicles which were

2 positioned in certain places and manned by their

3 crews. The others moved around the investigation

4 centre freely.

5 Q. Was there any problems because of their

6 presence there?

7 A. Yes, quite a number of problems.

8 Q. What kind of problems?

9 A. As they roamed around the investigation

10 centre freely, they would go from one building to

11 another. There were reports that they mistreated

12 people; that of their own initiative, they conducted

13 certain investigations; that they confiscated money

14 and jewellery; that during their so-called

15 investigations, they would beat up people.

16 There were certain situations when Zeljko

17 didn't know what to do because there were clashes

18 between the policemen from the Omarska department and

19 them; first verbal exchanges, of course, because I

20 didn't see any physical fights, nor did anyone dare to

21 oppose them.

22 Q. What was the attitude taken by the other

23 guards in relation to the conduct of the members of the

24 special police from Banja Luka?

25 A. The other guards kept their distance. They

1 said if things continued in that way, they would simply

2 walk out, they would give up their jobs, they didn't

3 know what to do, that things couldn't go on like that.

4 Q. What were your contacts like with members of

5 this police force, if any?

6 A. On one occasion, I spoke to Maric.

7 Q. What prompted the conversation?

8 A. One morning, I was informed, or rather a

9 prisoner complained to me as I passed by him, a

10 prisoner whom I knew well, his name was Dedo Crnalic

11 who is a relative of my wife's, though not a close one,

12 he complained to me that during the night money had

13 been taken from him and a ring and a watch. He said

14 that the watch was more of a souvenir than something of

15 value, at least that's what he told me. But he wanted

16 to let me know that that wasn't all that important, so

17 long as things didn't get worse. And he said that this

18 had been done by the people wearing blue camouflage

19 uniforms, because this is something he could clearly

20 see.

21 Q. Did you do anything about it?

22 A. That was when I talked to Maric, who, in my

23 assessment, was quite a decent man, and he told me

24 literally that these were gangs out of control, that

25 this unit was a gang of men out of control, and that he

1 would see if he could restore to this person the things

2 that had been taken away from him. I think that after

3 some time, some of those things were restored to him,

4 but not all of them.

5 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if

6 this will not be too complicated, I should like to

7 tender a new exhibit, but I would like to keep the

8 previous exhibit because we will be coming back to it.

9 So the next document is the Defence document number

10 54.

11 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Defence

12 Exhibit 18/1; 18/1A for the French version.

13 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Kvocka, what was Mr. Meakic's attitude

15 towards the members of this special unit from Banja

16 Luka?

17 A. I think that he too was dissatisfied with

18 their conduct. He was confused, upset, disturbed. He

19 said that he had to find a solution.

20 Q. Did he contact Mr. Drljaca for that purpose?

21 A. Not that I know of.

22 Q. When did the members of this special unit

23 from Banja Luka leave Omarska for good?

24 A. They left -- or this second shift of them,

25 they left when their shift ended, and that was perhaps

1 one day less than seven days, a day or two less.

2 Q. Could you give us a rough idea when that

3 could have been?

4 A. The 12th or the 13th. Perhaps the 14th. I

5 can't tell you the exact date.

6 Q. What month was that?

7 A. It was the month of June.

8 Q. So you have before you a letter addressed by

9 Mr. Drljaca to the head of the Security Services

10 Centre, Banja Luka. Could you read that letter

11 through, though you have had occasion to read it

12 before. It was produced by the Prosecution. What is

13 stated in this letter, is it true? Were there problems

14 as Mr. Drljaca described them to the head of this unit?

15 A. Yes, I have read this letter, and it roughly

16 corresponds to what I have just said. He said that

17 this was a unit whose members were commanded by

18 Strazivuk. So this is the second shift I was

19 describing, that they were interrogating people,

20 mistreating them, that they were simply seizing money

21 and other valuables. This unit did even worse things

22 under the control of Strazivuk than the previous one.

23 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] So that completes

24 the part of the testimony relating to the presence of

25 the special police unit in Omarska. So could the usher

1 put back the previous document on the ELMO.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

3 which document are we dealing with now? What is the

4 number of that document?

5 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Our number 55.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So it's the

7 last one, is it not?

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes. It is

9 Exhibit D17/1, Mr. President.

10 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Could we look at paragraph 7, please. To

12 whom does this order assign the duty of organising

13 meals in the Omarska compound?

14 A. What it says here is that the mine's

15 management, and allow me to read it: "Shall organise

16 meals for investigators, guards, and detainees,

17 according to norms which shall be agreed with the

18 military quartermaster service. At the same time, the

19 mine's management shall organise regular cleaning, as

20 well as maintenance of plumbing, electrical fixtures,

21 and other utilities, and it shall organise other kinds

22 of logistic support for the work and stay of the given

23 number of persons on the given premises by obligatory

24 work on the specialised employees."

25 Q. Did the mine's management carry out its

1 duties in accordance with these instructions in

2 paragraph 7?

3 A. It is a fact that they engaged in these

4 activities, but to what extent they were successful is

5 something I cannot judge.

6 Q. Was the Omarska compound fenced in with

7 wire?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Later was there any kind of fence?

10 A. During my sojourn there, there was never any

11 kind of wire fence around it, around the compound.

12 Q. Was the compound mined to prevent escape? Do

13 you have information to that effect?

14 A. No, it was not mined. Nobody said anything

15 to that effect. I could see people moving freely,

16 military men walking around the area where we could see

17 them. They moved there freely along that grass

18 surface.

19 Q. This order, does it give certain persons any

20 specific tasks? You told us Zeljko Meakic was assigned

21 the task of providing security. Are there any

22 assignments to named individuals?

23 A. Yes. Everyone is given certain assignments

24 contained in 16 or 17 paragraphs.

25 Q. I'm talking about the superiors.

1 A. Zeljko Meakic was given these orders as you

2 have described them.

3 Q. Were there any coordinators?

4 A. In paragraph 3, there is an instruction which

5 says: "Continued work and selection of arrested

6 persons shall be conducted by a mixed group of

7 investigators of national, public, and military

8 security who have to be organised along this same mixed

9 principle, and the persons responsible for their work

10 are Mirko Jesic, Ranko Mijic, and Lieutenant-Colonel

11 Majstorovic.

12 Q. What about paragraph 17? Who supervises the

13 implementation of this order?

14 A. It says here that the implementation of this

15 order should be supervised by police chief Dusan

16 Jankovic, in collaboration with the Banja Luka Security

17 Services Centre -- and the abbreviation is used, CSB --

18 with the support of authorised executive personnel.

19 Q. Who were the responsible executive personnel

20 from this decision with whom Mr. Dusan Jankovic should

21 have organised this activity?

22 A. If we are referring only to the policing

23 segment, then Zeljko Meakic was his subordinate.

24 Q. I'm asking you about the whole system, the

25 system as a whole.

1 A. If we look at it from a broader standpoint,

2 then he should have coordinated with the manager of the

3 mines, with the military command, and with possibly

4 these executives or senior officials, whatever the term

5 is used here, the coordinators of the service.

6 Q. Who were the coordinators?

7 A. Mirko Jesic, Ranko Mijic, and

8 Lieutenant-Colonel Majstorovic.

9 Q. Was this decision issued to those persons who

10 have certain assignments as superiors, with superior

11 responsibility?

12 A. From signatures of the people who received

13 these orders and from what is stated about to whom the

14 decision was forwarded, we can see that those were the

15 crisis staff; the coordinators; the CSB of Banja Luka;

16 the police chief, that is Mr. Jankovic; the security

17 chief, that is Zeljko Meakic; the general manager of

18 the iron ore mines Ljubija and for the files.

19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kvocka. But this document

20 raises another issue that we have to deal with.

21 Mention is made here of investigations. Where were

22 investigations carried out, if any, in the Omarska

23 compound?

24 A. Yes, the detainees were interrogated.

25 Q. Which services conducted investigations of

1 the detainees?

2 A. It was the state security service. For a

3 short period of time they were called national security

4 service, and this is why I was mentioning that too, but

5 that is what it was.

6 Q. So how many services are there?

7 A. There are three separate services.

8 Q. Who was the head of each of these services?

9 A. These coordinators, these three coordinators

10 were the chiefs. Ranko Mijic was the head of the

11 public security service, Mirko Jesic was the state

12 security services chief, and Lieutenant-Colonel

13 Majstorovic was the head of the military services.

14 Q. How were these investigations organised? Who

15 were the investigators? Where did they come from?

16 A. As I have mentioned yesterday, the

17 investigations took place in that upper floor of the

18 administration building where there were a number of

19 offices.

20 Q. Can you recall how many offices there were

21 there?

22 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we can

23 remove the roof from the model so that the witness can

24 better see and provide the information that we need.

25 The administration building. The one next to you.

1 Q. Does the layout of this floor correspond to

2 the layout of the offices on the top floor of the

3 administration building?

4 A. I believe that it does correspond to what I

5 was able to observe there.

6 Q. Who used the upper-floor premises? What was

7 used by the Omarska police and what was used by the

8 investigators?

9 A. The Omarska police used one room which is

10 where the police officers were staying.

11 Q. Can you please show us that room?

12 A. This is supposed to be this room, B5

13 [indicates]. It is marked as B5 here.

14 Q. Who used the other rooms?

15 A. The other rooms were used by the mixed

16 investigation group. They used all of the other

17 rooms. This is where they carried out investigations.

18 There was a larger room at the end where the

19 coordinators were sitting.

20 Q. What is the marking of that larger room?

21 A. B1. Actually, B1 was also used to mark --

22 but there was a sliding door which was separating these

23 two areas of that room B1.

24 Q. Where did the investigators come from to

25 work?

1 A. They were bused in from Prijedor for a part

2 of them. I don't know about every one of them.

3 Q. Did they come every morning?

4 A. Yes. Except Sundays, I believe.

5 Q. What time would they come?

6 A. Around 9.00.

7 Q. And what time did they stay?

8 A. Till 5.00 in the afternoon, 1700.

9 Q. Perhaps the investigation room we can skip,

10 but how many investigators worked per room?

11 A. Two or three; it depended.

12 Q. What was the composition of the investigation

13 teams in each of the rooms?

14 A. It was mixed. For instance, it would happen

15 that an investigator from the public security service

16 would work together with the state security service,

17 and sometimes a third, a military one, would be added.

18 Q. Did they have note-takers or typists?

19 A. There were two women who worked with

20 typewriters.

21 Q. Where did they come from?

22 A. They would come on the same bus with the

23 investigators.

24 Q. Where did they work?

25 A. They had worked -- in fact, one had worked in

1 the public security station in Prijedor and the other

2 one worked at the state security service. I knew this

3 because they were there for a long time.

4 Q. What were their names?

5 A. Slavica Lakic and Nada Markovski.

6 Q. Where did they sit while they were in the

7 investigation centre?

8 A. They had -- in fact, they had two tables in

9 the same office which occasionally were used by the

10 police officers from the Omarska precinct.

11 Yes, I remember. There were two desks

12 arranged in an L-shape.

13 Q. What was their task on that day?

14 A. During their working hours, they were typing

15 up documents, and I noticed that there were -- that

16 handwritten drafts were brought to them by these

17 coordinators.

18 Q. Who among the Omarska police officers were

19 staying in this room and what were they doing there?

20 A. The duty officers were staying there, the

21 duty police officers.

22 Q. Would that fall within the regular police

23 duties?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were there any communication -- was there any

1 communication equipment there?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What kind?

4 A. There was a radio transmitter, a so-called

5 fixed-radio transmitter, and a local telephone.

6 Q. What does it mean, a "local telephone"?

7 A. That means you could make internal calls in

8 the compound from that telephone.

9 Q. Could you have made a call out to the

10 Prijedor police station or the Omarska precinct?

11 A. No.

12 Q. How did you communicate with those two

13 offices?

14 A. Through the radio transmitter. That was a

15 possibility, at least to call the Omarska precinct and

16 the duty room in the Prijedor police station.

17 Q. When you called in for assistance, when that

18 incident took place, who did you call? How did you

19 make the call?

20 A. I used that transmitter that I mentioned.

21 Q. Was there a code used to make calls?

22 A. In the entire communications system, there

23 are certain call codes. The term "code" was not used,

24 it was just called a call number.

25 Q. Is it the same thing?

1 A. Well, perhaps it is, yes.

2 Q. What was the call number for the Omarska

3 complex, do you recall?

4 A. I cannot recall that right now. I believe

5 that -- I think that the word "Sana" was used.

6 Q. Were there any numbers added to that?

7 A. Sana 5. I don't know whether this was

8 Sana 5, but there was another number or digit in

9 addition to the word.

10 Q. Why would one need numbers in addition to the

11 word "Sana," as you called it?

12 A. Because there are a number of participants at

13 the same frequency, and so that one would know which

14 exact location it was. So, for instance, if you said

15 Sana 5, that would be the investigation centre.

16 Q. And what about Sana 1?

17 A. Sana 1 would then be the duty room in the

18 public security station in Prijedor.

19 Q. When we talk about communications, to stay

20 with that, was there any other telephone lines so that

21 someone could make telephone calls?

22 A. There was a telephone in the coordinator's

23 office by which you could call outside of the

24 compound.

25 Q. Could you, from your duty room, call the

1 front gate which we mentioned, that was 1.5 kilometres

2 away from the administration building?

3 A. Yes, but that was within the compound. So it

4 was within the local system.

5 Q. We have another few minutes before we take a

6 break. I would like to ask you more about this room.

7 Who were the duty police officers who were in this

8 room?

9 A. In addition to myself, the duty also provided

10 was Milojica Kos, Mladjo Radic, and Momcilo Gruban,

11 also known as Ckalja.

12 Q. Was this communication system functioning by

13 order? How did it function, this whole communication

14 system, that is, of the compound with the outside

15 world, to put it that way?

16 A. In practical terms, throughout my stay there,

17 in my use of that room, it happened several times that

18 someone would call from the Prijedor Public Security

19 Station asking for Zeljko Meakic, and I only used it

20 once when I asked for the ambulance when that incident

21 occurred, when the injuries occurred.

22 Q. Were any reports drafted about the work of

23 the security, and were you involved in that?

24 A. No, there were no documents kept or produced

25 there.

1 Q. Did the security service have a list of

2 detainees? Because these were detained persons there.

3 A. No. I believe that actually no list existed

4 of detainees ever.

5 Q. In the hierarchy of individuals whom we

6 mentioned, Dusan Jankovic, then Mijic, Jesic, and

7 Lieutenant-Colonel Majstorovic, what was the status of

8 Meakic, who was the commander of the Omarska police

9 precinct?

10 A. He was subordinate to Jankovic, and as for

11 his relationship with the coordinators, I am not sure

12 about that.

13 Q. Could he have ordered anything to Mijic?

14 A. I believe not.

15 Q. What about the other way around?

16 A. I believe not.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I think that we

19 have reached the 1.10-hours mark, and we may have

20 become a little exhausted. We can move on to the

21 methods of investigation after the break.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

23 very much, Mr. Simic. We are now going to have a

24 20-minute break, and then we'll resume.

25 --- Recess taken at 12.53 p.m.

1 --- On resuming at 1.15 p.m.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

3 you may continue, if you please.

4 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your

5 Honour.

6 Q. Mr. Kvocka, before the break, we had opened

7 the question of the investigation. We will talk about

8 the method of investigation and whether you have any

9 knowledge of it. So this is how I'm going to begin.

10 In what way were the detainees identified by

11 the investigators, or whoever it was who identified

12 them, how were they brought in? And can you give us an

13 overview of the method of work of the investigation

14 teams at all?

15 A. I will try to describe it as best I can, what

16 I knew at the time, based on what I was able to

17 observe.

18 Zeljko Meakic designated a group of police

19 officers, eight to ten of them, and put them at the

20 investigators' disposal. Then the investigators asked

21 these police officers directly to bring in a certain

22 individual for an interview. I observed that there

23 were cases when they did not ask for someone by their

24 name, but rather just said that people should be

25 brought in in order.

1 Q. Did the coordinators have a list of detainees

2 in the Omarska camp?

3 A. I don't know that.

4 Q. After a request to bring in a specific or any

5 detainee, what procedure was followed then?

6 A. Then they conducted an information interview

7 with the individual that was brought in to them, and

8 the police officer would remain standing in front of

9 the office, and sometimes even inside the office,

10 together with them.

11 Q. Was this a usual procedure? Was there any

12 deviation from the regular police procedure?

13 A. It is hard for me to determine this. I

14 observed that they were brought in, escorted by police

15 officers, and that then interviews were conducted with

16 these individuals in the offices.

17 Q. Except for those ten or so police officers

18 that you mentioned, did other police officers have

19 access to the area where the investigations took place?

20 A. No. Those who were on their guard positions

21 did not have that opportunity.

22 Q. How about the duty officers?

23 A. No.

24 Q. This may be obvious, but let me ask you this

25 anyway: Were the security officers at Omarska involved

1 in any way in the investigations against these

2 individuals?

3 A. No, absolutely not. There were even

4 suggestions on the part of Zeljko Meakic that any

5 contact with detainees should be avoided, unless the

6 detainees approached them.

7 Q. Was that Zeljko's order, or did it come from

8 some superior place?

9 A. Zeljko passed it on to us, but I don't know

10 if it went up -- if it came from above or not.

11 Q. Was there any mistreatment of detainees

12 during the investigations?

13 A. During my stay up there, I observed a

14 situation which, to me, looked like something like

15 that.

16 What happened was I was sitting in the duty

17 room, and some unusual noises could be heard, I could

18 describe them as moans, from the area of the offices on

19 the same side where the police duty room was.

20 Q. Did you react to them?

21 A. Yes. I stepped out into the hallway to see

22 what was going on and I entered several offices. In

23 several of the offices, everything was fine, but in one

24 of the offices, I could see that one of the persons

25 being interrogated had been beaten up. And then I

1 reacted, and I think that it was rather harsh, my

2 reaction, I said, "What is going on?" and I asked

3 whether a police officer or a reserve police officer

4 was involved in this in any way.

5 There was an investigator there whom I did

6 not know -- he was not from Prijedor because I know all

7 those from Prijedor -- and he kind of laughed a little

8 bit at me, and he said, "It's fine. It's fine.

9 Everything is going to be all right." But I didn't

10 get -- I couldn't get a good impression of who it was

11 that had beaten up the detainee, whether it was the

12 police officer who had brought him there or the

13 investigator.

14 Q. Mr. Kvocka, you were in Omarska over a period

15 of time. Did you hear any other noises, any other

16 voices coming from the office, different offices? You

17 would spend up to 10 hours there at a time. Were there

18 any moans or cries or anything like that?

19 A. This incident that I just described, that was

20 very specific and I reacted on that occasion. But on

21 several other occasions, I could surmise that force had

22 been used also.

23 Q. In the police force of the former Yugoslavia,

24 before these events, do you know of the use of force?

25 A. Yes, I know of such cases.

1 Q. When you responded, when you felt provoked by

2 the noises and moans, what was the response of other

3 police officers, your colleagues? What did they do?

4 Did they agree with your response, or did they just

5 gloss it over? What happened?

6 A. A number -- let me tell you. This created a

7 lot of noise. I reacted rather harshly, so a number of

8 doors opened and people stepped out to see. Those from

9 Banja Luka, one of them said, "Listen, kid, what are

10 you doing here? What are you trying to do?" And one

11 of the investigators who worked -- who had a desk at

12 the top of the hallway, this is where he conducted his

13 investigations, and he is a local man from Prijedor, he

14 supported me. He said, "Good for you, Kvocka."

15 Q. What's the name of that police officer?

16 A. You mean the investigator?

17 Q. Yes, the investigator.

18 A. It's Rade Knezevic. He worked in the

19 Prijedor police force for a period of time. Later on,

20 the two investigators who worked across from the police

21 room, the officer's room, said it was all right for me

22 to have responded, but what were they to do, because

23 these investigators were not going to listen to us

24 about this.

25 Q. Do you know what the subject of the

1 investigation was? What were they trying to

2 investigate?

3 A. No, I don't know, except that people talked

4 about the need to investigate these individuals to find

5 out who took part in the attack and in the armed

6 rebellion, who had organised it all, who had financed

7 it, and things like that. This is what the word was

8 about among the police officers.

9 Q. Who received the investigators' reports?

10 A. I don't know that.

11 Q. As you were told in the beginning that this

12 was going to take about 15 days, did you see any

13 detainees released in that period?

14 A. Yes. After about six or seven days of these,

15 a larger group was released.

16 Q. Do you know who was released?

17 A. I don't know the exact number, but I believe

18 they were taken in at least two buses. And the other

19 detainees said that these people were, for the most

20 part, from a place near Prijedor called Gornja

21 Puharska. I believe that they were the first ones to

22 be interrogated.

23 Q. Were there also individual releases?

24 A. I don't know about that, except that I

25 observed that on two or three occasions the

1 investigators would take someone in the bus which they

2 used for their transportation. But it would also

3 happen that in the morning they would also bring in a

4 person or two on that same bus, when they were coming

5 to work.

6 Q. Could you pinpoint the time when any kind of

7 release stopped?

8 A. It is hard for me to say so. I think that

9 there were no mass releases during my stay, except for

10 that group which I mentioned.

11 Q. Your brothers-in-law were subject to an

12 investigation. Were there any reactions on the part of

13 Mr. Meakic with regard to their absence?

14 A. Mr. Meakic told me, on several occasions,

15 that, quite simply, the climate was such in Omarska --

16 it was not a good climate, that is to say, for me and

17 my family. More for my family who was in a house in

18 the centre of town, that there were rumours going

19 around of various kinds that I was hiding -- that I was

20 putting up extremists, that I was feeding them while

21 their compatriots were being killed in other places.

22 So criticisms of this kind were conveyed to me. Other

23 people told me that too from town.

24 Q. With regards to your brothers-in-law, were

25 there any demands made, any conditions?

1 A. Quite simply, he told me that I must see what

2 I was going to do because it wouldn't end up well.

3 Q. Let us go back to the release of the

4 detainees, and we'll take up the subject of your

5 brothers-in-law later on. Once again, I'd like to look

6 at it from the aspect of the superiors in the Omarska

7 compound.

8 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] With this in

9 view, I would like to tender DP21. It is our DP21. I

10 would like to tender it into evidence.

11 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Exhibit

12 D19/1, Defence exhibit.

13 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Kvocka, you have in front of you a

15 decision of the crisis staff, dated the 2nd of June

16 1992, that is to say, from the very outset of the

17 existence of this unfortunate centre.

18 In Article 6 -- and I'd like to ask you to

19 read it, Mr. Kvocka.

20 A. It says in Article 6: "This decision that

21 the public security station is entrusted for the

22 implementation of this decision and personal

23 responsibilities held by the chief of the public

24 security station which exclusively with his signature

25 can release any individuals detained."

1 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.

2 There seems to be a mix-up with the documents on the

3 monitor. Just one moment, please, if we may, to

4 clarify this.

5 We apologise, Your Honours, because there

6 were two similar documents.

7 Q. Mr. Kvocka, I shall interpret this article.

8 Who was the supreme authority, not to say the -- in

9 charge of all the managerial structures in the Omarska

10 compound?

11 A. According to what it says here, what the

12 crisis staff wrote, we can see it is evident that it is

13 the chief of the public security station himself who

14 was responsible, and that he exclusively, by virtue of

15 his signature, could make the moves.

16 Q. Mr. Kvocka --

17 MS. HOLLIS: Excuse me, Your Honours. We may

18 be able to assist you in the mix-up in the documents.

19 I believe we have an English translation of the proper

20 document if you wish to have that placed on the ELMO.

21 I don't know if that would assist you.

22 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] We have it too,

23 but it will be a good idea. Any assistance is

24 welcome.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think we

1 have the document now, Ms. Hollis. We have the right

2 document.

3 MS. HOLLIS: We were the only ones confused

4 by it, Your Honour. I'm sorry. Thank you.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

6 anyway, Ms. Hollis.

7 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] The Defence thank

8 you as well.

9 Q. Mr. Kvocka, who is the individual who was

10 solely responsible for the release from Omarska of any

11 individuals?

12 A. It was the chief of the public security

13 station himself, Simo Drljaca.

14 Q. I should now like to ask, and I hope that

15 we're not going to have any more technical problems, to

16 take a look at document 25. It is our number 25.

17 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Defence

18 Exhibit D20/1, D20/1A for the English version.

19 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Kvocka, you have before you a letter, a

21 report to the crisis staff of the municipal assembly of

22 Prijedor, dated the 1st July 1992, submitted by

23 Mr. Simo Drljaca. I should like to ask you to read the

24 first paragraph or item in this letter which has to do

25 with what we're discussing.

1 A. It says here that: "Conclusion number

2 01-111-108/92, by which the release of prisoners is

3 prohibited, is being fully observed."

4 Q. Did the security service, any policemen, or

5 Meakic as the head of the department, commander of the

6 department, have any knowledge of the existence of an

7 absolute prohibition for the release of prisoners?

8 A. No. We did not have any knowledge of that.

9 Q. This sentence, what does it assert, confirm?

10 Who remains the supreme authority when it comes to the

11 release of individuals from Omarska? Who is master of

12 life and death in Omarska, to put it that way?

13 A. Well, this just confirms that it was Simo

14 Drljaca. Simo Drljaca was the sole individual who

15 could order or sign any kind of document ordering the

16 release of somebody from the centre.

17 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Within the

18 context of these questions, I should like to refer to

19 document DP24.

20 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Defence

21 Exhibit D21/1 and D21/1A.

22 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mr. Kvocka, you now have before you an order

24 of the crisis staff of the Prijedor municipality, dated

25 the 2nd of July, 1992. This is also a document which

1 we received in the disclosure process from the

2 Prosecution.

3 You said a moment ago that security, that is

4 to say, the police precinct, did not have a list or

5 information as to who the detainees were. Does

6 paragraph 2, point 2, of this order contain an answer

7 to the question who had the lists and records of the

8 individuals who had been detained?

9 A. I think it does, yes.

10 Q. Who had the lists, the lists with the names

11 of individuals?

12 A. It is stated here that "Information about

13 these workers is to be submitted by the public security

14 station" of Prijedor "on request of the above-mentioned

15 organs, companies, and associations."

16 Q. In the top right-hand corner, we have a list

17 of the individuals to whom copies of this order were

18 sent. Can you identify these people and tell us their

19 names?

20 A. Yes, I can. The first two are fairly

21 legible. They are Marko Dzenadija and number 2 is

22 Dusan Jankovic. It says "D. Jankovic," but I think it

23 means Dusan Jankovic. And under number 3, it could be

24 M. Topic.

25 Q. Marko Dzenadija, do you know who he was?

1 A. Yes. He was a worker from previous times.

2 He worked in the Secretariat for Internal Affairs, when

3 the secretariat existed, and the public security of

4 Prijedor later on which came into being.

5 Q. And number 2, who is that?

6 A. Yes, I know Dusan Jankovic.

7 Q. Number 3, "M. Topic," do you know that

8 individual?

9 A. This could be a woman. She was a clerk, an

10 administrator, in Drljaca's office, because there was a

11 lady with the surname Topic, and she was a sort of

12 technical secretary to Drljaca, something like that.

13 Q. Was this order sent to Mr. Meakic, the head

14 of security?

15 A. I don't think it was, no.

16 Q. Thank you. Now, to wind up this subject of

17 investigation and interviews. The duty officers were

18 in the same room as two typists; was that so throughout

19 your stay at Omarska?

20 A. Yes. While I was there, yes.

21 Q. Did you know what they were writing down or

22 typing out?

23 A. I don't think we had any insight into that,

24 because once they had completed their work, typing out

25 the document, they would send them back to the

1 coordinators. Perhaps if anybody was interested, they

2 could just have a brief look, glance at the paper in

3 the typewriter, but as far as I was able to note, this

4 wasn't of interest to anyone.

5 Q. Were your brothers-in-law subject to an

6 interview?

7 A. Yes, they were.

8 Q. In what way?

9 A. When rumours were going around Omarska about

10 the problems that I and my family could face, I

11 contacted two inspectors, investigators whom I knew and

12 who previously worked in Prijedor. They are younger

13 men, that is to say, they didn't have many years of

14 service, and I knew them to be very proper in their

15 conduct and in conducting the interviews. So I asked

16 them whether they could interview my brothers-in-law

17 and to tell me when to bring them in for questioning.

18 They told me that I could bring them in straightaway,

19 that there was no problem, so that that is what I did.

20 Having completed the interviews with those inspectors,

21 I took my brothers-in-law back to the house.

22 Q. Did the inspectors tell you about the results

23 of the interviews at all?

24 A. Well, Nebojsa Tomicic, and the other one's

25 name is Babic, he was also Nebojsa Babic, they told me

1 that they had nothing interesting to note and that my

2 brothers-in-law were absolutely of no interest to them

3 from any aspect, but that they could do nothing else.

4 All they could do was to send them back to me.

5 Q. You have mentioned for the second time the

6 unpleasantness that you could have, and that people

7 told you that you would have some unpleasantness.

8 Could you tell us, who told you this and when?

9 A. In addition to the unpleasantness and what

10 Mr. Meakic told me, and some of my neighbours who

11 indirectly let this be understood, that the situation

12 was not a good one, that the mood was not good, on one

13 occasion in Omarska, one of my school friends looked me

14 up -- at the beginning of his career, he worked with me

15 in Prijedor but then went to work in Banja Luka -- it

16 was about the 12th or 13th of June, I believe.

17 We met in the centre of Omarska, and as we

18 hadn't seen each other for a long time, for about a

19 year, we went to have a cup of coffee. He explained to

20 me briefly that he had come to visit his wife, who was

21 in a nearby village, near Omarska, the village's name

22 is Piskavica, and the name of that friend of mine was

23 Jadranko Mikic.

24 So after a brief discussion about general

25 subjects, he said to me -- well, he became a little

1 more serious, and he said, "Well, pal," he used this

2 word "pal," sort of classmate, "in Banja Luka, in our

3 security centre, people are saying bad things about

4 you, they're not saying nice things about you. You

5 haven't got a good reputation. They're saying that you

6 are a greater enemy to the Serbs than the Muslims are

7 themselves, that you are collaborating with them, that

8 you're helping them in every respect," something along

9 those lines, that's what he said to me on the

10 occasion.

11 He also said that rumour had it in Banja Luka

12 that, quite simply, I was collaborating with another

13 school friend of ours, and he said that they knew in

14 Banja Luka that this particular school friend of ours

15 was a sniper in the Green Berets, and that I was a

16 great collaborator of his. And he said, "That's all I

17 can tell you. Even I've said too much already, it's

18 dangerous for me. But as we're colleagues and friends,

19 take care of yourself. The times are bad. And good

20 luck to you."

21 Q. What does the term you used "klasic" mean,

22 when you referred to your pal or classmate? Tell us

23 what the term "klasic" means.

24 A. Well, the term was used between people who

25 had completed school in the same class or level,

1 especially when it came to the police school and the

2 cadets there, and for uniformed personnel, because

3 that's how they referred to each other, they went to

4 the same class. So it's a friendly term for people you

5 were in the same class with, on a par with.

6 Q. It's a friendly term, is it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Mr. Kvocka, what effect did this have on you?

9 A. Well, in view of everything that had taken

10 place previously, this was another blow, another

11 additional shock, because up till then, I thought that

12 this was a small circle of people who thought that way

13 and that these -- well, shall I say, threats that were

14 addressed to me, I didn't take them seriously up until

15 that moment.

16 I tried to clear things up for me in my own

17 mind, what I was doing that was considered to be so

18 terrible, and I couldn't really see what it was that I

19 was doing wrong, the reasons for these criticisms to

20 have been made of me.

21 Q. Mr. Kvocka, I think this rounds off the

22 subject of investigators and inspectors, but let us go

23 back to a question we touched upon earlier on.

24 What did you do to solve the problem of your

25 brothers-in-law?

1 A. After all this information that had reached

2 me, and after talking to Zeljko, he told me, "Well, I

3 can't tell you anything. You know what Simo's like

4 yourself. If you want to go and ask him," and "Come

5 what may." He also told me that Zeljko wouldn't dare

6 go up to him with any question of that kind.

7 Q. Did you know Simo Drljaca from before?

8 A. No, not until he came to be the chief.

9 Q. Was this a new man in the police force?

10 A. Yes, he was a completely new man.

11 Q. Did you have enough willpower to go and see

12 him, guts to go and see him?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. What was the conversation like? How did it

15 end?

16 A. One morning, I managed to reach Simo Drljaca,

17 having asked the secretary to announce me, and I went

18 into his office, he just said, "What's up, Kvocka?" and

19 I tried to explain to him that I had a problem and that

20 I would like to return my brothers-in-law to their own

21 homes, that they were interviewed in Omarska by

22 inspectors and that they said that they had done

23 nothing wrong, and could he issue a permit to that

24 effect.

25 After my first introductory statements and my

1 requests, he jumped out of his chair, and said, "What's

2 wrong with you, Kvocka? The Muslims seem to have got

3 your brain." He said, "Well, perhaps you're not a Serb

4 actually at all. Take your pants off so I can see.

5 Perhaps you're a Muslim yourself. I could deal with

6 you very easily were it not for some other people here

7 in SUP, in the police station." He said, "Get out and

8 don't come back again. I don't want to see you

9 again."

10 Q. What happened next?

11 A. Well, nothing. I was astounded by his

12 behaviour, the reaction on the part of a leader. I had

13 never encountered that in my entire career before. So

14 I went back to Omarska. I went to work to do my shift,

15 went on duty. I was with Zeljko.

16 Q. Did you tell anybody in your family about

17 this meeting?

18 A. Well, yes. I told my wife, in general terms,

19 what had happened, because she asked me how we were

20 going to solve the whole situation, that was terrible

21 for these people in Omarska, they didn't dare leave the

22 house, they were frightened to leave the house and go

23 anywhere. When I told her that I had not been able to

24 do anything and not been able to secure their official

25 release, they were very surprised, astonished, because

1 we just didn't see a way out of the situation.

2 Q. What about your brothers-in-law? Did they

3 learn of how things stood?

4 A. Yes. I think my wife told them.

5 Q. What happened next with respect to your

6 brothers-in-law?

7 A. I think that it was on the very next day that

8 Zeljko told me that the two of us had to go; that is to

9 say, that Dule Jankovic had ordered him that the two of

10 us should report to Dusan Jankovic.

11 Q. And did you go?

12 A. Yes. On that same day when he told me this,

13 he said that he had some business to attend to and that

14 we would go in a few hours time. That is what

15 happened. We went and found Dusan Jankovic in his

16 office in the building of the public security station

17 in Prijedor.

18 Q. What was the conversation that you had with

19 Jankovic and was Mr. Meakic present?

20 A. Yes, Zeljko was present. Jankovic just said

21 very briefly, "Kvocka, where are your

22 brothers-in-law?" I answered, "They're at my place, at

23 my house with my parents." He said, "Go back and take

24 them to the investigating centre and report to me

25 tomorrow morning here."

1 Q. What did you do then, Mr. Kvocka?

2 A. I went back home. I said that this was

3 something we had to do because the situation was highly

4 volatile. The three of them got into the car with me,

5 and I drove them back to the investigate centre. I

6 found there the duty officer who was Momcilo Gruban,

7 who gave me the impression of being a decent and honest

8 man. I said to him, "Here you are. Take care of them

9 if you can. Help them, and I will probably come to

10 visit them occasionally."

11 Q. Mr. Kvocka, was this the last day of your

12 service in the Omarska police station department and,

13 thereby, also in the mining compound of Omarska?

14 A. That evening when I left them there and went

15 back home, that was my last day of work.

16 Q. What day was that?

17 A. That could have been the 22nd or 23rd of June

18 1992. Taking into account the day when I had to report

19 to Jankovic that morning, then that must be the date.

20 Q. What was your status in the ensuing days and

21 what were your activities? What did you do?

22 A. The next morning, as he said, I reported, but

23 he wasn't there or, rather, his secretary said he was

24 busy and that I should wait for a while and we'd see.

25 However, he didn't turn up that day. So I came back

1 the next day, and for another day I called up the

2 secretary by phone from my apartment to tell me whether

3 Dule Jankovic could see me. Eventually this did

4 happen.

5 One day towards the end of June, again we had

6 a brief conversation. All he said to me was, "Go to

7 the reserve police force in a locality called Tukovi, a

8 suburb of Prijedor, in the direction of Sanski Most,

9 and report to Mile Drazic there, who is the commander

10 there. You will assist them in their work."

11 Q. Mr. Kvocka, allow me now to read a document

12 which has already been tendered, D13/1, that is exhibit

13 number. It was our document DP8.

14 Allow me to read item 1 of the letter of the

15 12th of March 1993, signed by the head of the centre,

16 Marko Dzenadija: "Kvocka Miroslav worked in Omarska

17 including the 23rd of June 1993, when he terminated his

18 employment and went on a seven-day leave to end on the

19 30th of June inclusive, Omarska."

20 The text is now on the monitor.

21 Paragraph 2 of this letter reads, "The

22 policeman Kvocka Miroslav worked in Omarska until

23 June 23rd, 1992, when he handed over the duty and took

24 a seven-day leave ending June 30th, 1992, when he came

25 back to work in the Tukovi police station."

1 This is paragraph 1. I'm sorry.

2 Can this official report be accepted as

3 correct, the report being issued by the public security

4 centre in Prijedor?

5 A. Yes. I think this fits, only I see that they

6 registered me as if I had been on leave because that is

7 what I had asked Jankovic to do. But it wasn't really

8 a vacation. It couldn't have been a vacation for me.

9 I was thinking whether I would be fired or be put in

10 prison or who knows what else.

11 Q. We won't deal in detail with the Tukovi

12 police station because it is outside the relevant

13 issues, but we will introduce evidence to show that you

14 did begin working there, because according to the

15 Prosecution, your responsibility ends with the 30th of

16 June. But Mr. Niemann, in his opening statement, again

17 referred to the whole period. So we wonder now whether

18 we need to prove the fact that Mr. Kvocka really did,

19 on the 1st of July 1992, begin working in the Tukovi

20 police station.

21 According to the amended indictment, there

22 would be no need to introduce evidence to prove this,

23 but in view of the opening statement by my learned

24 friend Mr. Niemann, we would need to prove that fact.

25 When you arrived at the Omarska police

1 station, who was the commander?

2 A. You mean Omarska or Tukovi?

3 Q. No. No. I'm sorry. Tukovi.

4 A. The commander was Mile Drazic.

5 Q. Was he a member of the reserve or active-duty

6 policemen?

7 A. He was a member of the reserve police force.

8 Q. Who was his deputy?

9 A. His deputy was Slavko Antonic.

10 Q. Mr. Antonic. Where was he working and what

11 was his status, active duty or reserve policeman?

12 A. Mr. Antonic was also a reserve policeman, and

13 he used to work in the economy, I think, in the post

14 office in Prijedor.

15 Q. Who was the assistant commander of the Tukovi

16 police station?

17 A. It was Lazar Basrak.

18 Q. What was his status?

19 A. Basrak was an active-duty policeman who came

20 after the well-known events in Croatia. He had to

21 leave Zagreb. But I think that at the time in the

22 Tukovi station, he still didn't have any official

23 decision as an active-duty policeman. So one could

24 really describe him as being a reserve policeman. But

25 by occupation, he was a professional policeman. I know

1 that.

2 Q. What was Mr. Basak's situation later on,

3 three or four years later? Did he get employment in

4 the police?

5 A. Yes. He started working later in the public

6 security station in Prijedor for a number of years,

7 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996. I think he stayed on working

8 there after I was arrested in the Prijedor police

9 station.

10 Q. What was your duty in the Tukovi police

11 station?

12 A. I had no specific assignments in Tukovi

13 except to be on duty in a small auxiliary office which

14 was part of the premises of the local community, and I

15 would assist Mile Drazic with the administrative work,

16 because he was not qualified for these administrative

17 duties. So I usually was on duty there, then I'd go

18 home when I was off duty, and then I'd come back again

19 to Tukovi.

20 Q. Mr. Kvocka, during your stay in Tukovi -- let

21 me rephrase that. What was the attitude of the

22 superiors in the Tukovi police station towards you?

23 A. I didn't have any outspoken problems, but

24 everyone was very reserved towards me. Basrak would

25 exchange a few words with me occasionally about

1 policing since he had spent many years in Zagreb as a

2 policeman, and that was all.

3 Q. For how long did you go on working in the

4 Tukovi police station?

5 A. I find it difficult to recall exactly, but it

6 could have been until sometime in September when I

7 stopped working in Tukovi.

8 Q. What was the reason for your stopping to work

9 in Tukovi?

10 A. I think there was talk already then about the

11 termination and the closure of that police station, but

12 a couple of days before that, several of us from Tukovi

13 were assigned to provide security for a gathering in

14 Prijedor. After I participated in providing security,

15 I no longer worked in Tukovi.

16 Q. What was this gathering?

17 A. It was an assembly, a joint-assembly meeting

18 of the Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbian

19 Krajina. It was a rather important gathering in those

20 days and quite a number of policemen provided the

21 security.

22 Q. What did you do there?

23 A. My duty was to stand on one corner of the

24 hotel, and should any person try to do something in

25 that area, to attack the hotel in any way, it was my

1 duty to prevent it.

2 Q. Which hotel was this?

3 A. It was the Prijedor Hotel.

4 Q. Is it in the centre of town or is it on the

5 bank of the Sana River?

6 A. It is a hotel on the Sana River, right close

7 to the bridge there.

8 Q. Can you tell us, roughly, to end this story

9 about Tukovi, how many days went by from the security

10 of that event to the disbanding of the station in

11 Tukovi?

12 A. It wasn't a long period of time, but I don't

13 know exactly. It could be 15 -- I could say 15 and it

14 could be 25, so I wouldn't be precise in giving an

15 estimate. Since I never went back to Tukovi after

16 that, I lost interest in it.

17 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I

18 thought that the examination would take three, maybe

19 four days. It seems that it will have to take a fourth

20 day. We have ended one subject area. Perhaps it would

21 not be good to embark upon another subject area now.

22 But of course, I am at your disposal regarding what you

23 think we should do.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] If I

25 understood you correctly, Mr. Simic, you need another

1 day at least to complete the testimony of Mr. Kvocka;

2 is that correct?

3 MR. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Half a day.

4 Roughly. I have a couple of more subject areas, meals,

5 medical treatment, and that would be more or less the

6 end. About half a day, according to my judgement.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me,

8 Mr. Simic. Let me ask Mr. Fila.

9 Are you ready to begin on Monday, following

10 the end of this examination-in-chief?

11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm

12 ready to begin on Monday, but it depends on when

13 Mr. Krstan Simic finishes his part of the work. What I

14 promised you and the Prosecution is that it will be

15 very brief if we agree that Mr. Radic accepts

16 everything that Mr. Kvocka has said so that I don't

17 have to go through it again to ask Radic, "Where is

18 Prijedor? Where is Omarska?" and all these things all

19 over again. I don't think that is necessary. It will

20 be too tiring.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be

22 seated, Mr. Fila.

23 I think it is better for us to adjourn for

24 the moment and to embark upon your next subject on

25 Monday. As soon as Mr. Kvocka finishes his testimony,

1 we will begin with the testimony of Mr. Radic on

2 Monday.

3 So for today, that will be all. As you know,

4 we have no hearing tomorrow, so I wish you success in

5 your work and a pleasant weekend.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

7 at 2.20 p.m., to be reconvened on

8 Monday, the 6th day of March, 2000,

9 at 9.30 a.m.

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