Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1789

          1                 Monday, 15 May 2000

          2                 [Open session]

          3                 --- Upon commencing at 9.43 a.m.

          4                 [The accused entered court]

          5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be

          6  seated.  Good morning.

          7            Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good

          8  morning, to the technical booth.  The interpreters are

          9  here, are they?  Good morning.  Good morning to the

         10  legal assistants, the court reporters.  Good morning to

         11  the Prosecution; good morning to the Defence; I see

         12  that they are all here.  Good morning to the accused.

         13            So we are going to resume our case, Kvocka

         14  and others.  We're saying this for the benefit of the

         15  record.  It is up to the Prosecutor this morning, Madam

         16  Hollis or Mr. Michael Keegan, who are going to tell us

         17  what we are going to do.

         18            MS. HOLLIS:  Your Honour, to give you an

         19  update of where we are in terms of the late disclosure,

         20  as of today, we are current with disclosure on Witness

         21  AI; on this witness, Mr. Oklopcic; on Witness B, who is

         22  number 6 on the list.  Witness number 7 has been moved

         23  to another slot because of her personal circumstances.

         24  Witness number 8, we are current.  Witness number 9, we

         25  are current.  Witness number 10 has been moved to

Page 1790

          1  another spot because of witness 10's personal

          2  circumstances.  Witness number 11, we are current

          3  except for one B/C/S version of a transcript that is to

          4  be delivered to us today, which will be served on the

          5  Defence today.  Witness number 12 is current.  Witness

          6  number 13 is current except for a short affidavit,

          7  which will be filed with the Defence today.  Witness

          8  number 14 is current except for a B/C/S translation of

          9  a statement, which should be filed today.  Witness

         10  number 3, Witness AK, is current except for a videotape

         11  that we're attempting to find which may contain an

         12  interview of this witness.  We don't have that video

         13  yet.

         14            So we're prepared to proceed with

         15  Mr. Oklopcic, and thereafter with witness 4.

         16            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

         17  very much, Madam Hollis.  Please sit down for the

         18  moment.

         19            Before resuming the normal course of work,

         20  the Chamber would like to convey to the parties its

         21  extreme concern regarding the situation with the

         22  witnesses in our case.

         23            For reasons which you are all well aware of,

         24  and which are in the public domain, several witnesses

         25  have had to spend several days in The Hague; others

Page 1791

          1  have left and have to come back, and for one of them,

          2  he will be coming for the third time.  We must do

          3  everything we can to avoid having witnesses confronted

          4  with such difficulties.  The Chamber says this in

          5  relation to the witnesses of the Prosecution, and this

          6  also applies to the witnesses of the Defence.

          7            It is not only a budgetary problem, although

          8  the costs are considerable, but it is, above all, a

          9  question of principle.  We cannot function without the

         10  indispensable assistance provided to us by the

         11  witnesses.  But for the majority of them, they are not

         12  only witnesses; they are, in the first place, victims

         13  who are coming to convey here their suffering, the

         14  suffering of their loved ones and their friends.

         15            This applies both to the witnesses called by

         16  the Prosecution and by the Defence.  We must all do

         17  everything we can to convey to them the feeling of

         18  interest that we have in them so that they may testify

         19  under the most serene conditions.  It is in the

         20  interest of the credibility of our system of justice.

         21            I also wish to express my most sincerest

         22  thanks in my own name, but I think I can also speak on

         23  behalf of all of us, to the commander of the Victims

         24  and Witnesses Unit who has accomplished an admirable

         25  task.  I will once again be most grateful to you for

Page 1792

          1  doing everything so as to facilitate the testimony of

          2  the witnesses and to make their appearance as short and

          3  as necessary as possible.  If we are all vigilant, we

          4  will ensure a better justice and a more humane justice

          5  to be handed down.

          6            To achieve that, the Chamber orders the

          7  parties to submit to the Chamber a list of witnesses

          8  which they are going to call to testify in the week,

          9  that is, seven working days in advance.  We must have a

         10  list of witnesses who are going to testify during the

         11  week.  I think that this can assist the parties to

         12  organise themselves, to be more disciplined, so as to

         13  avoid bringing witnesses who are not going to testify

         14  and who only have to wait.  I think you understand well

         15  the aims behind this decision.

         16            I see that Mr. O'Sullivan had the intention

         17  to speak.  Mr. O'Sullivan, do you have anything to

         18  communicate to us?

         19            MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank

         20  you, and good morning.

         21            The Defence wishes to raise another matter

         22  with the Trial Chamber before the witness Oklopcic

         23  enters the courtroom.

         24            On Tuesday, May 9th, Your Honours, we

         25  adjourned, with the witness Oklopcic having completed

Page 1793

          1  his examination-in-chief; the cross-examination by the

          2  Defence has not yet begun.

          3            Your Honours will recall that on May 3rd you

          4  issued an order in relation to witnesses who are under

          5  oath.  Your Honours ordered that "without leave of the

          6  Trial Chamber, all contacts shall be prohibited between

          7  the parties and a witness after the witness has taken

          8  the solemn declaration, until he or she has completed

          9  his or her testimony."

         10            Last Tuesday, May 9th, during the break in

         11  proceedings between 11.00 and 11.30, witness Oklopcic

         12  was observed in the witness room, which is located just

         13  outside the courtroom, in conversation with Mr. Keegan

         14  of the Prosecution, who at that time was leading

         15  Mr. Oklopcic in examination-in-chief.  It appears, Your

         16  Honours, that your order has been breached by the

         17  Prosecution.

         18            I must be perfectly clear of the reason why

         19  the Defence is raising this issue.  We are not raising

         20  this matter to suggest that Mr. Keegan's integrity has

         21  been or should be brought into question.

         22            Our position is this:  There appears to have

         23  been a prima facie breach of your order.  Can I remind

         24  Your Honours that in issuing the order, you emphasised

         25  that contact must cease because when a witness appears

Page 1794

          1  before the Trial Chamber he or she is less a witness of

          2  a party but more a witness of justice.

          3            In our submission, one way of explaining the

          4  rationale of your order is to say that justice must not

          5  only be done, it must be seen to be done.  This is

          6  central to the credibility of a justice system.

          7            If, as it appears, your order has been

          8  breached by the Prosecution, in the interests of

          9  justice, we submit that the appropriate remedy is

         10  this:  The evidence in chief given by the witness

         11  Oklopcic following the break in proceedings between

         12  11.00 a.m. and 11.30 a.m., last Tuesday, May 9th, that

         13  evidence should be struck from the record, or

         14  alternatively Your Honours should completely disregard

         15  that evidence.

         16            Those are my submissions in relation to this

         17  matter.

         18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

         19  very much, Mr. O'Sullivan.  You may be seated.

         20            I will give the Prosecution a chance to

         21  respond and explain.

         22            Mr. Keegan.

         23            MR. KEEGAN:  Yes, thank you, Your Honours.

         24  Just so all the facts are on the record, during the

         25  break, of course I went to the witness room for the

Page 1795

          1  purpose of letting the other witnesses who were to

          2  follow Mr. Oklopcic know what the situation was.  The

          3  difficulty is, of course, there's only one witness room

          4  available.  Apparently the other witness waiting room

          5  that was near this one has been taken away from the

          6  Victims and Witnesses Unit.  Mrs. Nikolic actually saw

          7  me because the Defence counsel use the same door to get

          8  out to the patio, and she raised the issue with me and,

          9  in fact, I showed her that unfortunately the other

         10  witnesses were also in that room as well, which of

         11  course presents an obvious difficulty which I indicated

         12  to her.  And I made it clear that I was speaking to the

         13  other witnesses and I couldn't help the fact that

         14  Mr. Oklopcic was also in that room.

         15            He, in fact, attempted to say something to

         16  me, like, "When are we going to start again," and I

         17  simply told him through the translator, "I'm not

         18  allowed to have contact with you at this point."  We're

         19  very aware of the difficulty in the perception issue.

         20  At the same time, there was no Victims and Witnesses

         21  Unit personnel present, and there has not been any

         22  Victims and Witnesses Unit personnel present with our

         23  witnesses since this trial began.  They say they don't

         24  have enough people.  They indicate that they

         25  periodically send someone to check on the witnesses who

Page 1796

          1  are waiting, but there's no one in there so there's not

          2  even an intermediary to whom I could address the

          3  issue.

          4            I, unfortunately, was in the position of

          5  having to speak to the other witnesses directly.

          6  Fortunately one of our language assistants was present

          7  with the witnesses who were waiting, but not yet been

          8  called, and so I was able to facilitate that message.

          9            We raised the issue with the Victims and

         10  Witnesses Unit that day about our concern because of

         11  this very real problem, and we understand the

         12  perception it can present.  They indicated they are

         13  trying to do something, but they don't yet have a

         14  solution as to how they can separate witnesses who've

         15  already taken an oath and those who have not.

         16            So that was the nature of the contact, and I

         17  can assure the Court there was no discussion between

         18  myself and Mr. Oklopcic.

         19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

         20  Mr. O'Sullivan.

         21            MR. O'SULLIVAN:  As I said, this was not

         22  raised to question Mr. Keegan's integrity.  However,

         23  and I'm not sure how far we want to pursue this, the

         24  contact we were referring to --

         25            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me.

Page 1797

          1  Having heard this explanation given by Mr. Keegan, what

          2  is your position?

          3            MR. O'SULLIVAN:  The contact I was referring

          4  to occurred between 11.00 and 11.30, and my

          5  understanding is the contact Mr. Keegan had with

          6  Mrs. Nikolic was after the proceedings, after we

          7  broke.  I was referring to a different period when

          8  Mr. Keegan was observed with Mr. Oklopcic, that is,

          9  between 11.00 and 11.30.  My understanding is

         10  Mrs. Nikolic saw him after that, after we had completed

         11  proceedings for the day.  And that is the basis for our

         12  request to have the testimony struck or disregarded.

         13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In your

         14  opinion, is it necessary to conduct an inquiry to

         15  clarify all these circumstances, or do you still

         16  maintain your request?

         17            MR. O'SULLIVAN:  I don't know if Mr. Keegan

         18  recalls the event I'm speaking of, the one that

         19  occurred between 11.00 and 11.30.

         20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I saw that

         21  Mr. Keegan was on his feet.

         22            Mr. Keegan, have we finished with this

         23  matter?  You know that the witnesses are waiting.

         24            MR. KEEGAN:  Yes, Your Honour.  As far as I

         25  know, if there was -- the only one I recall is the one

Page 1798

          1  when I had a conversation with Mrs. Nikolic.  If there

          2  was another instance, it would have been in the same

          3  light; that is, I was addressing the other witnesses

          4  who happened to be in the room, and unfortunately,

          5  again, the witness who has already taken the oath is

          6  put in the same place.  But I can affirm to the Court

          7  that I had absolutely no contact with the witness other

          8  than to tell the witness we're not allowed to speak any

          9  more because I am not sure they got that instruction

         10  directly from the Victims and Witnesses Unit, and maybe

         11  that needs to be reaffirmed as well.

         12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan,

         13  if I understand well, you went to this room because you

         14  wanted to talk to witnesses who were testifying, and

         15  Oklopcic was among those witnesses.  Is that correct?

         16            MR. KEEGAN:  No.  I was speaking to tell the

         17  witnesses who had not yet been called, Your Honour,

         18  because they are waiting in the room.  As I said,

         19  because there is no one with them, they never

         20  understand what is going on.  They want to know how

         21  much longer they will be in the room, when they might

         22  get to the stand, those kinds of things.  So on every

         23  break we try and reassure the witnesses where we are in

         24  procedure, whether they are going to be called, those

         25  kinds of things.

Page 1799

          1                 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

          2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The Chamber

          3  has heard the parties on this matter.  We are not

          4  certain, at least, that Mr. Keegan did this

          5  intentionally.  We agree that it happened by chance,

          6  and even if it did not, the Chamber is certainly going

          7  to take measures with the Witnesses Unit so that we can

          8  have a situation which will facilitate contact of the

          9  parties with the witnesses who've still not taken a

         10  solemn declaration and to avoid the witnesses being

         11  together, because otherwise there will still be

         12  doubts.  So we have a logistical situation which has

         13  contributed to this possibility.

         14            Therefore, to be, or to appear to be, these

         15  are things that may be confused and we must therefore

         16  regulate this situation so that at the same time,

         17  appearances will correspond to facts.  And we will talk

         18  to the Victims and Witnesses Unit to avoid this

         19  situation of having the witnesses together, those

         20  who've not taken a solemn declaration which the parties

         21  may contact, and those who've already taken the solemn

         22  declaration and with whom no further contacts with

         23  allowed.

         24            Therefore, we are fully aware of this

         25  situation, and as O'Sullivan have reminded us, we wish

Page 1800

          1  to confirm that these witnesses are witnesses of

          2  justice and that is why we have issued this other

          3  order.  The Chamber is concerned about the witnesses,

          4  both those called by the Defence and those by the

          5  Prosecution, and this situation has to be cleared up so

          6  as to avoid tomorrow Mr. Keegan saying, "I saw one of

          7  you contacting a witness who has not taken the solemn

          8  declaration but who happened to be with another witness

          9  who already has," and we must clear up this situation

         10  fully.

         11            For the moment, what we are going to do is

         12  that we are going to declare this incident closed.  So

         13  we are going to resume with the cross-examination of

         14  Mr. Oklopcic, and I should like to know, Mr. Krstan

         15  Simic, what is the order in which you will

         16  cross-examine?  I think you have already told us, but

         17  could you remind us, please?

         18            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

         19  the order will be slightly changed today.  The first

         20  will be representatives of Mr. Kos' Defence team, then

         21  myself, then representatives of Mr. Radic's Defence

         22  team, then Mr. Prcac's, and at the end Mr. Zigic's

         23  Defence attorney.  So there is a minor change in the

         24  order in relation to the standard order of the

         25  Defence.

Page 1801

          1            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

          2  very much, Mr. Simic.  Can we have the witness brought

          3  in, please?

          4            Yes, Mr. Fila.

          5            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] While the witness

          6  is coming in, I would just like to take advantage of

          7  the time.  Let the witness come in.  I would just like

          8  to take advantage of a few minutes.

          9                 [The witness entered court]

         10            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] We have not

         11  received the order of witnesses for this week from the

         12  Prosecution, so we don't know who is going to testify,

         13  and secondly, there seems to be a difference between

         14  Mrs. Hollis and us regarding the numbers, the order of

         15  the witnesses, the numbers attributed to witnesses,

         16  because when she read out the list, the names and the

         17  numbers do not correspond.

         18            For example, Mr. Oklopcic is, in our list,

         19  number 5.  Is he the same number in Ms. Hollis' list?

         20  As for the others that she mentioned today, they are

         21  not given the same numbers that she mentioned, and this

         22  may cause some confusion.

         23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

         24  Ms. Hollis.

         25            MS. HOLLIS:  Your Honour, the list from which

Page 1802

          1  I was reading is the confidential annex to the updated

          2  list of witnesses filed on the 28th of April, and the

          3  numbers are the same that I read out as are on that

          4  list which was served on the Defence.  Those were the

          5  numbers I was using to avoid any confusion.

          6            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me,

          7  Ms. Hollis.  The 25th of April or the 28th of April?

          8            MS. HOLLIS:  28th, Your Honour.  28th of

          9  April, updated, Prosecution more list of changes to

         10  witnesses, the confidential annex, updated list of

         11  witnesses.

         12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Because in

         13  the translation, I got the 25th, but I see the 28th in

         14  the transcript.  It is the list that I have in my

         15  hands, is it not?  Does it correspond?  Does that meet

         16  the difficulties of Mr. Fila?

         17            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

         18  Let me give you an example.  AI is numbered 4 on this

         19  list, and she read it out as number 2 today, (redacted)

         20  (redacted).

         21            JUDGE RODRIGUES: (redacted)

         22  (redacted)

         23  (redacted)

         24  (redacted)

         25  (redacted)

Page 1803

          1            MS. HOLLIS:  Number 2 is Witness AJ.

          2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] AJ.

          3            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] It's all right,

          4  then.  It's all right.  But this morning, you said he

          5  was under number 4, not number 2.  And who is going to

          6  testify today?  Can we have the number, please?  After

          7  Mr. Oklopcic, who will be the next witness, so we know,

          8  please.

          9            MS. HOLLIS:  Your Honour, Witness AK, witness

         10  number 3, followed by witness number 4.

         11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Is that

         12  clear now?  We have to try to communicate well.

         13  Perhaps we always need to mention the document, as you

         14  have done now.  There are 12 attorneys so there may be

         15  some confusion.  So this is the list, filed on the 28th

         16  of April this year.  So when Ms. Hollis mentions

         17  numbers 1 and 2, it is from that list.

         18            So, Ms. Hollis, that is why it is good to

         19  have at least seven days in advance the list of

         20  witnesses that we're going to call that week.  In that

         21  way, there will be no problems, I think.  That can

         22  facilitate the proceedings and avoid witnesses waiting

         23  for 15 days.  I'm sorry for saying this, but we must

         24  organise ourselves, that is our duty.  If we need five

         25  witnesses for a week, we will call five witnesses for

Page 1804

          1  that week, not 10, not 15.  The Chamber prefers to have

          2  time that is not filled or used on Friday than having a

          3  witness who will start with one hour and have to stay

          4  over until Monday.  Can you pay attention to that,

          5  please?  Respect persons.  Witnesses are persons, and

          6  that is what we must do.  And if we organise ourselves

          7  better, I'm sure we will improve things for ourselves

          8  and for the witnesses.  And if we have a protected

          9  witness, and I say "protected," and he waits here for

         10  15 days, what justification can we have for that?  I'm

         11  addressing myself to both the Prosecution and the

         12  Defence.  It is the same for both parties.

         13            I apologise, Ms. Hollis.  Please convey to us

         14  any difficulties that you may have.  Perhaps we can

         15  help by talking about them.  Please sit down, Madam

         16  Hollis.  Thank you very much.

         17            I now give the floor to the Nikolic Defence

         18  team, Mr. Nikolic, for the cross-examination of

         19  Mr. Oklopcic.

         20            Good morning, Mr. Oklopcic.  Can you hear

         21  me?  It's the President talking to you.

         22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

         23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I apologise

         24  for the inconvenience caused to you, but in any event

         25  we are beginning with your cross-examination.  I must

Page 1805

          1  remind you that you are still under oath.  You have

          2  told us that you will tell us the whole truth, nothing

          3  but the truth.  And now you are going to answer

          4  questions which Mr. Nikolic is going to put to you on

          5  behalf of the Defence.  Thank you.

          6            You have the floor, Mr. Nikolic.

          7                 WITNESS:  AZEDIN OKLOPCIC [Resumed]

          8            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please Mr.

          9  Nikolic, microphone, please.  And will you speak into

         10  the microphone, please.

         11                 Cross-examined by Mr. Nikolic:

         12       Q.   I have several questions for you, to which I

         13  hope you will provide simple answers.

         14            You had a meeting with investigators of the

         15  Prosecution and you gave a statement in 1994; is that

         16  correct?

         17       A.   Yes.

         18       Q.   This is your statement.

         19            MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I should like

         20  to ask the usher to give Mr. Oklopcic the original

         21  English version and the B/C/S version.

         22            Could the usher please provide Your Honours

         23  with three English versions.

         24       Q.   Mr. Oklopcic, you have two texts in front of

         25  you; one is in English, the other is in the B/C/S

Page 1806

          1  language.  The B/C/S language was given to you so that

          2  you can follow my questions more easily.

          3            Mr. Oklopcic, will you please look at the

          4  cover page of the B/C/S version.  It says on top, "The

          5  International Criminal Tribunal for the prosecution of

          6  persons responsible for serious violations of

          7  international law committed in the territory of the

          8  former Yugoslavia since 1991."  Is that correct?

          9       A.   It is.

         10       Q.   Below that it says, "Witness statement"; is

         11  that correct?

         12       A.   It is.

         13       Q.   On this cover page, we can see the date of

         14  the interview.  Are the dates correct?

         15       A.   Yes.

         16       Q.   Will you please look at the English version

         17  of that text.  There is your signature at the bottom of

         18  the page.

         19       A.   Yes.

         20       Q.   Will you please look through the English

         21  version and see whether each page has been signed by

         22  you?

         23       A.   Yes, it has.

         24       Q.   I should like to ask you to look at the B/C/S

         25  version, on the last page of that version, where it

Page 1807

          1  says the date, "the 10th of December, 1994," and

          2  signature of the witness.  Is that correct?

          3       A.   Yes.

          4       Q.   Look at the last page of the English

          5  version.  You signed that statement, dated the 10th of

          6  December, 1994; is that correct?

          7       A.   I don't remember, but it is my signature,

          8  yes.  Whether that is the date, it probably is.  It is

          9  my signature, that is for sure.

         10       Q.   Mr. Oklopcic, is it true that you gave this

         11  statement of your own free will, without any pressure?

         12       A.   Yes.

         13       Q.   When you made that statement, you told the

         14  truth.

         15       A.   I tried to tell the truth, yes.

         16       Q.   You made that statement over a period of six

         17  days, on the 22nd, the 23rd, the 24th, the 25th, and

         18  the 26th of September, 1994, and on the 10th of

         19  December, 1994; is that correct?

         20       A.   Yes.

         21       Q.   Can you remember roughly, on average, how

         22  much time did you spend talking to the investigators?

         23       A.   About eight hours every day, a working day on

         24  an average.

         25       Q.   Every day, eight hours on an average.

Page 1808

          1       A.   Yes.

          2       Q.   Three persons were present when this

          3  interview was taken.  If you look at the cover page,

          4  you will see the names?

          5       A.   Yes.

          6       Q.   Yes.  They put questions to you, and you

          7  provided the answers.

          8       A.   Yes.

          9       Q.   Did you tell them something of your own

         10  accord?

         11       A.   Probably.

         12       Q.   Yes or no, please.

         13       A.   I can't answer that question now.  I can't

         14  remember.

         15       Q.   But you said "probably."

         16       A.   Yes, probably.

         17       Q.   When you made that statement, there was no

         18  pressure brought to bear on you.

         19       A.   No.

         20       Q.   You spoke of your own free will.

         21       A.   Yes, of my own free will.

         22       Q.   Your interview occurred roughly two days

         23  after the relevant events in the Omarska camp; is that

         24  correct?

         25       A.   Yes.

Page 1809

          1            THE INTERPRETER:  Two years, I'm sorry.  Two

          2  years, not two days.

          3            MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

          4       Q.   The events were still fresh in your mind; yes

          5  or no?

          6       A.   Yes.

          7       Q.   Your statement is about 29 pages long, and it

          8  is full of details; is that correct?

          9       A.   Yes.

         10       Q.   When you made that statement, you gave the

         11  best rendering you could of what you could remember.

         12       A.   Yes, of what I could remember.

         13       Q.   Mr. Oklopcic, did you know that this

         14  statement would be used in trial proceedings in the

         15  International Tribunal?

         16       A.   I assumed it would.

         17       Q.   Yes, you did?

         18       A.   Yes.

         19       Q.   Thank you.  Will you turn to page 23.  In

         20  your statement, on page 23, on page 23, the one but

         21  last paragraph --

         22            MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in

         23  the English version, it is page 31, third paragraph

         24  from the top.

         25       Q.   -- you mentioned the nickname Krle; is that

Page 1810

          1  correct?

          2       A.   Yes.

          3       Q.   Thank you.  Can you agree with me, in view of

          4  this statement, that in that statement you never

          5  mentioned a person with the nickname Krle ever again in

          6  relation to any incident?

          7       A.   Well, yes, I can, if you say so.

          8       Q.   Thank you.

          9            MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I

         10  have no further questions.  I would like to ask Your

         11  Honours to admit this statement into evidence.  It is

         12  D2/2.

         13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan,

         14  do you have any objections to the admission of this

         15  exhibit?

         16            MR. KEEGAN:  We have no objection.

         17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

         18  Mr. Dubuisson.

         19            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] As mentioned,

         20  it is D2/2.

         21            MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very

         22  much.

         23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

         24  Witness.  Thank you very much, Mr. Nikolic.

         25            We are now going to go on to Mr. Krstan

Page 1811

          1  Simic.

          2                 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

          3       Q.   Mr. Oklopcic, Mr. Nikolic asked you a few

          4  questions which I myself had the intention of asking

          5  you.  So in order not to repeat those questions, your

          6  statements which you gave are quite clear, and your

          7  statements were made of your own free will and signed

          8  as such.  Is that correct?

          9       A.   Yes.

         10       Q.   Talking about the statement, I should like to

         11  ask you to try and recall on how many occasions and

         12  with what persons did you talk about the events

         13  relating to Omarska?

         14       A.   Are you talking about the investigators or

         15  all persons in general?

         16       Q.   The total number of persons that you talked

         17  to.

         18       A.   Sincerely speaking, there were quite a few

         19  visits by the investigators who came to seek me out and

         20  talk to me.  As regards other people that I talked

         21  about with the events in Omarska, that was quite

         22  infrequent.

         23       Q.   No, I'm talking about official institutions

         24  and representatives of those institutions.

         25       A.   As for those, I only had four or five

Page 1812

          1  encounters with the investigators of the court who came

          2  to see me at my home.

          3       Q.   Does this mean that the statements of the

          4  22nd, 23rd, 24th, 25th, and 26th September of 1994,

          5  then we have another statement of the 10th of December,

          6  1994?

          7       A.   Yes, that's correct.  So we have two

          8  occasions, yes.

          9       Q.   Did you talk to the representatives of the

         10  Tribunal in June 1995?

         11       A.   I cannot recall the exact date, but I did

         12  talk to them after these occasions.  I cannot recall

         13  the exact dates and the exact months.  It is quite

         14  impossible, you know.

         15       Q.   I don't know whether to ask you this.  I have

         16  a statement here from the 22nd of June, but we'll

         17  revert to that particular statement a bit later.

         18            Talking about these statements, as

         19  Mr. Nikolic gave you the text of the statement which

         20  you have before you, you polemicise in several places

         21  in that statement with another statement that you

         22  yourself had given without particularly stating to whom

         23  and on which particular occasion.  It just refers to

         24  some discrepancies.  What is this about?

         25       A.   I don't know exactly what you're talking

Page 1813

          1  about.  Can you give me a specific example?

          2       Q.   Page 9, last paragraph.  Let me just find the

          3  English version.  Page 12 of the English version, the

          4  last paragraph.  I understand there that the report of

          5  my interview that it's deleted, states among other

          6  things, and then it goes on to state the rest of it.

          7  Do you recall that statement?

          8       A.   I really don't know what is deleted here.  I

          9  really cannot respond to this question, although I do

         10  want to give you an answer.

         11       Q.   I'm not interested in what is deleted, I want

         12  to know whether you recall to whom you talked when you

         13  gave this particular statement.  What statement are you

         14  referring to?  To whom did you give it and when?

         15       A.   It is stated here, right in the beginning.

         16  Mr. Tieger --

         17       Q.   No, you don't understand me.  Mr. Oklopcic,

         18  you talked to the gentlemen who were interrogating you,

         19  and you were explaining to them.  I know that in a

         20  record of some other statement, of some other interview

         21  with me there was something said which differs from

         22  what I am saying now.  What particular record are you

         23  talking about?

         24       A.   As far as I'm able to read, this is not what

         25  this says.  I understand that the report of my

Page 1814

          1  interview states, "among other things," that is what I

          2  said, inter alia, not that there had been any changes.

          3       Q.   No, Mr. Oklopcic, this is not the subject.

          4  What particular minutes, what particular

          5  record/statement, are you talking about?

          6       A.   No, I really cannot remember at this point.

          7  I cannot recall that particular statement/record.

          8       Q.   On the occasion of the June 1995 visit, did

          9  the interrogators give you any photographs to identify?

         10       A.   Yes, they did, once.  Whether that took place

         11  in 1995, on that particular occasion, I don't know.

         12  But I did identify some persons.

         13       Q.   How many photographs were there?

         14       A.   I think six.  I'm not quite sure.

         15       Q.   Did you recognise anyone on those

         16  photographs?

         17       A.   Yes, I did.  I cannot recall now.  I cannot

         18  give you an answer.

         19       Q.   Was that verified in the record?

         20       A.   It ought to have been -- I was not the one

         21  conducting the interview or taking notes.

         22       Q.   Did you sign the photographs that you

         23  identified?

         24       A.   No, I did not.

         25            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I

Page 1815

          1  have an objection to raise.  We have not been disclosed

          2  these photographs, we have not seen these photographs

          3  up to now, so that we have no way of ascertaining which

          4  particular photographs were shown to Mr. Oklopcic.  We

          5  feel that we should, after all, be shown these

          6  photographs in order for the Defence to be able to

          7  prepare its witness interrogation in the proper and

          8  efficient way, particularly in connection with

          9  Mr. Oklopcic's statement.

         10       Q.   Mr. Oklopcic, on the 20th of May, you

         11  testified that you were a participant in a football

         12  match of veterans.

         13       A.   Yes, it was on the 20th or the 30th.  I'm not

         14  quite sure.

         15       Q.   You mentioned that during that match you

         16  heard a burst of fire from the direction of Hambarine;

         17  is that correct?

         18       A.   Yes.  And you could also see smoke.

         19       Q.   Later on you said that at the time you had no

         20  information but that you learned from the media what

         21  had happened; is that correct?

         22       A.   Yes.  And not only from the media, but the

         23  night among -- from other people, from stories told by

         24  others.

         25       Q.   During your testimony, you covered this event

Page 1816

          1  rather quickly, even though it was a dramatic and

          2  tragic event.

          3       A.   I did.

          4       Q.   What did you hear from the media, or in

          5  contact with other persons?  What had happened around

          6  the 20th of May?

          7       A.   There was a shooting incident at a checkpoint

          8  in front of Hambarine -- I don't know if you know the

          9  area; there is a slope there -- and in front of

         10  Hambarine there was a checkpoint, as throughout town

         11  Serbian guards and military had checkpoints.  And so

         12  the citizens of Hambarine decided to set up their own

         13  checkpoint, and that is where the shooting incident had

         14  occurred.

         15       Q.   What were the consequences of the shooting?

         16       A.   The consequences were that an ultimatum was

         17  issued -- what do you mean the consequences?

         18       Q.   I mean regarding the casualties?

         19       A.   I don't know what the consequences were.  I

         20  think two were killed and two were wounded among the

         21  Serb soldiers.

         22       Q.   Slowly, please, Mr. Oklopcic.  Will you

         23  please answer my questions?

         24       A.   I am answering your questions.

         25       Q.   I am asking you whether it is correct that in

Page 1817

          1  that incident, at the Hambarine checkpoint, two men

          2  were killed and another two were wounded of Serb

          3  ethnicity.

          4       A.   That is what Serb television announced.

          5            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, we'll try

          6  to slow down.

          7       Q.   You have just mentioned checkpoints.  What

          8  were they, really?

          9       A.   Checkpoints consisted of 10 or 15 sacks of

         10  sand and two to three or three or four soldiers under

         11  arms manning them, or policemen.

         12       Q.   Mr. Oklopcic, who did these checkpoints

         13  belong to throughout the territory of Prijedor

         14  municipality?

         15       A.   In the town itself, because in fact I lived

         16  in the centre of town, the checkpoint was held by the

         17  Serb side, the soldiers and police.  In the Muslim

         18  villages around it, Kozarac or Hambarine, for example,

         19  because I worked in Kozarac for a time, and Trnopolje,

         20  but in Kozarac, on the one hand there was the

         21  Territorial Defence of Kozarac, the checkpoint, and

         22  opposite, on the crossroads of Banja Luka, Prijedor,

         23  and Kozarac, there was the checkpoint of the Yugoslav

         24  army and police.  And at Hambarine as well, there was

         25  this checkpoint underneath Hambarine, at the very

Page 1818

          1  approach to Hambarine, there was a Territorial Defence

          2  checkpoint which organised that particular checkpoint

          3  and set it up.

          4       Q.   Can we take it, then, that at the end of May,

          5  in the Prijedor municipality, in fact there was a

          6  division, a division had been made of the ethnic

          7  communities at checkpoints, and they were armed and

          8  prevented the free passage of people and traffic and so

          9  on.

         10       A.   No, we cannot say that because taking over

         11  power on the 30th of April by the Serb side, at that

         12  particular point, all the checkpoints were held by the

         13  Serb side.  The checkpoint in Hambarine was a response

         14  to the Serbian side and provocation from them, because

         15  drunken guards, soldiers, and policemen would march,

         16  that is to say, they would drive by with the

         17  three-finger sign and fire, and I'm very sorry to say

         18  that those Serb soldiers died.  But this was the result

         19  of provocation on the part of the drunken passers-by.

         20  And I happened to see that on my way to Kozarac and

         21  Trnopolje.

         22            So the checkpoints at Kozarac and Hambarine,

         23  as far as I know, and I repeat, as far as I know, were

         24  set up as the result of the taking over of authority by

         25  the Serbian army and police on the 30th of April,

Page 1819

          1  1992.  And not a day -- one day after, but perhaps 15

          2  or 20 days later, if I may just finish that answer to

          3  your question -- if you don't want me to, I'll stop

          4  there --

          5       Q.   Yes, please do go on.

          6       A.   As I said, we had a meeting, that is, the

          7  citizens of Raskovac, we had a meeting with Mr. Kusorac

          8  [phoen] in May 1992 and we asked why it was only the

          9  Serb side and the Serb soldiers that manned these

         10  checkpoints, and that was that famous meeting at the

         11  Polijne stadium.  He laughed, he tried to explain

         12  something, but that was it.  And as a result of that,

         13  we have the intervention well, it wasn't the

         14  intervention, but it was the establishment of a

         15  checkpoint in Hambarine and Kozarac.

         16       Q.   The checkpoint at the entrance to Hambarine,

         17  or to Prijedor, where the Serb checkpoint was, did it

         18  prevent people -- prevent the free passage of people

         19  without being stopped, having to show their IDs, being

         20  searched and so on?

         21       A.   I personally was stopped at the checkpoint

         22  towards the school.  The soldiers came and asked for

         23  our ID cards.

         24       Q.   So that means that those checkpoints did

         25  restrict the freedom of movement, freedom of passage.

Page 1820

          1       A.   As far as I experienced them, yes, they did.

          2       Q.   What was the ethnic composition of the

          3  checkpoint at Hambarine?

          4       A.   Probably Muslim because the whole population

          5  was Muslim.

          6       Q.   Did you happen to hear who took part in this

          7  tragic shooting?

          8       A.   Yes, I did.  You mean -- yes, there was Aziz

          9  Aliskovic, the policeman.

         10       Q.   Were they able, in the usual way, to conduct

         11  all the necessary things in a criminal investigation?

         12  Was a criminal investigation enabled?

         13       A.   Well, I cannot be certain, but I know that

         14  one day later, an ultimatum was posed to the population

         15  of Hambarine to give up Aziz Aliskovic to the

         16  authorities, to give him up.

         17       Q.   Was Mr. Aliskovic taken into custody ever

         18  with respect to this incident?

         19       A.   I don't think so.  I didn't see that he was.

         20       Q.   We have now rounded off that topic relating

         21  to the events that you passed over very quickly.  But

         22  let us now go back a bit to another topic, the topic of

         23  your military involvement.

         24            You state in your statement that you did your

         25  military service, compulsory military service, in the

Page 1821

          1  infantry and that as a sportsman and as an intellectual

          2  you advanced very quickly, and received the highest

          3  rank in the non-commissioned officers, Sergeant First

          4  Class?

          5       A.   Yes, as far as I remember.

          6       Q.   Now, as sergeant first class, you were the

          7  commander of what?

          8       A.   I was the commander of a platoon.

          9       Q.   How many members does a platoon have?

         10       A.   Well, as far as I recall, if each platoon has

         11  four groups, then that would make it eight to ten

         12  soldiers, wouldn't it?  Eight times four is 32, so let

         13  us say 30 to 35 soldiers.

         14       Q.   So you, as a reserve officer, had 30 soldiers

         15  under you during the exercises.  So you were in the

         16  reserve formation?

         17       A.   The commander of the unit was Karlica,

         18  Karlica, Zoran or Zorka, I don't quite remember, but

         19  Karlica.

         20       Q.   Was he an active officer or reserve officer?

         21       A.   Well, he was first of all a reserve, and then

         22  he wasn't.  He got the rank of lieutenant and captain

         23  first class.

         24       Q.   What about the overall unit?

         25       A.   It was Major Grbic, I believe, as far as I

Page 1822

          1  recall.  And then there were a few more lieutenants,

          2  Lieutenant-Colonel Fokumce [phoen], warrant officer

          3  first class, second class.  But as I say, that was a

          4  long time ago.  But Major Grbic and Lieutenant-Colonel

          5  Poplvica [phoen].

          6       Q.   As somebody who was in town and near all

          7  those organs, when you completed the army, what were

          8  your duties as a soldier?

          9       A.   To respond to a call-up and to take part in

         10  the defence of the former joint state.

         11       Q.   Now when you left the army, did you go to the

         12  ministry to sign up, to register?

         13       A.   Well, yes, it was the Territorial Defence.  I

         14  don't know which department, but we had to register and

         15  become reservists.  We had to register once or twice a

         16  year.

         17       Q.   So you became a member of the reserve

         18  formation of the Yugoslav People's Army; is that right?

         19       A.   Yes.

         20       Q.   Were there any other members of the reserve

         21  formation of recruits, the reserve police force?

         22       A.   Yes, there was a reserve police force.

         23       Q.   That means that there was this military duty

         24  as well, as a member of the reserve police force.  Let

         25  us round off that topic.  Did you have a any work

Page 1823

          1  duties to perform?

          2       A.   Yes, there was a work duty but I didn't have

          3  any obligation in that respect, to perform a work

          4  duty.  It is difficult for me to give you an answer

          5  when you say "work duty".  What do you mean by "work

          6  duty"?

          7       Q.   Well, for example, if you're called up to

          8  have a particular duty to perform?

          9       A.   Well, no, I didn't really, because I was a

         10  professor, I was a teacher, so there wasn't much there

         11  that I could do.

         12       Q.   As we have covered this system of reserve

         13  formations and mobilisation in general, I should like

         14  to attempt to ascertain things about the Omarska camp.

         15            Did you happen to notice any members in the

         16  guards from the reserve formation of the police, or as

         17  it was called at the time, the militia?

         18       A.   Yes, and there was a difference.

         19       Q.   Very well, then.  Within the composition,

         20  there were members of the reserve police force there.

         21       A.   Yes, and the regular police force as well.

         22       Q.   Yes, the regular police force, I understand

         23  that.  But throughout the compound in Omarska, were

         24  there any members of the reserve formation of the army

         25  who provided security for the camp?

Page 1824

          1       A.   Well, at the time they were all soldiers,

          2  they all wore uniforms.  I see no reason -- I see no

          3  difference between those who were active and those who

          4  were reservists, because every Serb had a uniform, had

          5  a rifle, and goodness knows what else.

          6       Q.   Very well.  So you too as a reservist had a

          7  uniform and rifle, did you not?

          8       A.   No, I didn't have a rifle at home.

          9       Q.   I'm asking you about the reservist

         10  formations.  What was the difference between you, for

         11  example, and an active, let us say, an active corporal?

         12       A.   No.  There was a difference just in rank, but

         13  the uniform was the same.

         14       Q.   What about the officer's uniforms?

         15       A.   Well, I didn't have an officer's uniform.  I

         16  had an ordinary uniform with my rank on the shoulder.

         17       Q.   That's what I'm asking you.  You were a

         18  reservist, you were a lance corporal -- a corporal, I'm

         19  sorry, and that was a professional calling.  And as an

         20  ordinary observer, was I able to note the difference if

         21  I looked at your uniforms?

         22       A.   Yes, you would be able to.

         23       Q.   Could you see the difference in the uniforms

         24  of the regular formations and the police or active

         25  policeman and professional policeman, and the

Page 1825

          1  reservists, the reserve police force?

          2       A.   Well, you could and you couldn't.  I'm going

          3  to answer that question, if I may.

          4       Q.   When we're talking about soldiers, could you

          5  tell the difference between active-duty policemen and

          6  the reserve force in the army and the others?  The

          7  reserve police force and the active-duty police force?

          8       A.   Yes.

          9       Q.   Well, that was the answer that I wanted to

         10  get.  In Omarska, in the security system that prevailed

         11  in Omarska, you had these three structures; is that

         12  correct?

         13       A.   Yes, all three were there.

         14       Q.   That means, let us clarify this once again,

         15  within the security system, there was the reserve

         16  police force, there were active-duty policemen, and the

         17  reserve army formation, as well as active-duty

         18  soldiers.

         19       A.   Yes, that's correct.

         20       Q.   Let us round off the topic of security.  You

         21  mentioned that at the beginning of June, within the

         22  frameworks of the Omarska compound, there was the

         23  special police unit, a special formation.  They were

         24  the special purpose unit from Banja Luka.  Did they

         25  have different uniforms, were you able to differentiate

Page 1826

          1  them?

          2       A.   No, they didn't but they had more weapons on

          3  them than the other ones, the locals who would come

          4  from Omarska or all around Omarska.

          5       Q.   I know that a lot of time has gone by since

          6  that time, but could you try and tell us how long they

          7  would stay in Omarska?

          8       A.   One or two weeks.  One or two weeks, I know

          9  that for sure, and I can give you a very precise answer

         10  to that question.

         11       Q.   During their stay, while they were there,

         12  were there any shifts of any kind?  Did one group of

         13  people replace another?

         14       A.   You mean whether somebody replaced them?

         15       Q.   In these special units, elite units.

         16       A.   No.  They came and they were in charge during

         17  that first week or two.  Then they disappeared and then

         18  the other people came, who took over, if we can use

         19  that term "took over" command of the camp, or

         20  whatever.

         21       Q.   You have just said, in the first days, the

         22  people at the head of this unit were in charge.  That's

         23  what you said a moment ago?

         24       A.   Yes, I did.

         25       Q.   Could you tell us who those people were?

Page 1827

          1       A.   No, I can't because they were from Banja Luka

          2  and they said that they were from Banja Luka

          3  themselves, and I didn't know any of these people.  I

          4  couldn't give you a single name.  I don't know that.  I

          5  would happily give you a name if I knew.

          6       Q.   So you don't know who was the commander of

          7  that unit.

          8       A.   He was a relatively young man, about 30 years

          9  old.  He was in command of that unit, that's what I

         10  know, and mostly there were young people, members of

         11  the unit were young people.

         12       Q.   So this younger man, when did he leave

         13  Omarska?

         14       A.   When they all left Omarska, one or two weeks

         15  later.  Suddenly they would get their things together

         16  and leave.  APCs would come by and they left.  It

         17  wasn't a big unit, it was, say, 15 to 20 men.

         18       Q.   Did you see the kind of tasks and duties they

         19  had to perform, what their role was in the security

         20  system?

         21       A.   Well, they stood on the pista in front of the

         22  toilets, in front of the entrance to the main building,

         23  in front of the hangar and so on.  What they wanted, I

         24  don't know.  I can't enter in their minds to know what

         25  they had in mind.

Page 1828

          1            THE COURT REPORTER:  Would counsel please

          2  slow down?

          3            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

          4       Q.   Were there any classical guards?

          5       A.   What do you mean by classical guards?  For

          6  me, all guards were guards.  They had rifles, they had

          7  pistols.  I can't see the difference between one guard

          8  and another, if you understand me.  So I have to answer

          9  your question in that way.  What do you mean classical

         10  guards?  They were all classical guards, I suppose.

         11       Q.   Who organised their food for them?

         12       A.   Well, the food came from Omarska, their meals

         13  came from Omarska.

         14       Q.   When we are talking about the composition of

         15  the security system, do you mean the special forces

         16  from Banja Luka?

         17       A.   No, just a minute, I'll explain what I mean.

         18  This active duty and reserve formation, composed of the

         19  two, from the Omarska police station.

         20       Q.   Can you remember or calculate how many

         21  active-duty policemen there were?

         22       A.   Of those who were there throughout, who were

         23  frequently there, that is to say, Kvocka, Radic, and

         24  the others, but every day, every day when five or six

         25  new prisoners were brought in, then policemen would

Page 1829

          1  come from Prijedor.  There was not a single policeman

          2  from Prijedor or Omarska who was not at one time in the

          3  Omarska camp, who did not come to the camp.  So believe

          4  me when I say that.  And most of them were there.

          5       Q.   Mr. Oklopcic, let us try to be as clear as

          6  possible.  I asked you a clear-cut question related to

          7  the security composition from the police station in

          8  Omarska and not people who would bring in detainees or

          9  come in for any other business.  So could you try and

         10  answer the question in that way?

         11       A.   You asked me how many policemen there were,

         12  as far as I remember.

         13       Q.   From the security of the camp?

         14       A.   Well, I told you, there was Kvocka, there was

         15  Radic, they were the ones I saw and the ones I

         16  remember, and the others, well, I won't mention the

         17  others.

         18       Q.   And the rest, were they reservists?

         19       A.   Well, there were reservists and active-duty

         20  regular ones.  It was never only the reservist

         21  formation.  It was a mixed group.

         22       Q.   I'm not asking who went in, who came, but who

         23  stood guard.  Who stood guard?

         24       A.   Nobody stood guard of the regular policemen,

         25  let me tell you that.

Page 1830

          1       Q.   Let us now go back to the security system

          2  once again.  In your statement you mention a certain

          3  person called Stupar.

          4       A.   I asked that that name not be mentioned.  I

          5  do not wish him to be mentioned.  You can refer to him

          6  as ZM or whatever, but I don't want his name to be

          7  mentioned.  That was a bit of a provocation.

          8       Q.   No, that was no kind of provocation, and

          9  these matters are talked about far more freely.  I

         10  don't mean out of fear.  You needn't fear for

         11  Mr. Stupar because we look upon him with sympathy.

         12       A.   Well, I'm not afraid of him, and were I

         13  afraid I would not have --

         14            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] I should like

         15  to interfere in the debate, but it is absolutely too

         16  fast for the interpreters, and certainly for the court

         17  reporters.  They are not able to follow the

         18  proceedings.

         19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I have

         20  also noticed this.  Please don't speak at the same

         21  time.  If the witness and Mr. Simic speak at the same

         22  time, it is impossible to translate.  It is anyway

         23  difficult.  But if you speak at the same time, it is

         24  absolutely impossible.

         25            I would like to ask Mr. Simic to put

Page 1831

          1  questions in accordance with the Rules, in a clear,

          2  specific, and concise manner.  In that way, we will

          3  proceed more quickly.  Perhaps you could finish by

          4  11.00.  It would be good.  I'm not pressuring you, but

          5  go to concrete matters, put specific questions to the

          6  witness and you will get concrete answers, Mr. Simic.

          7            Continue, please, and do not forget that

          8  there are the interpreters as your intermediaries

          9  between the two of you.

         10            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

         11       Q.   Mr. Oklopcic, do you know Mr. Stupar?

         12       A.   Very well.

         13       Q.   Who is Mr. Stupar?

         14       A.   My colleague.  He worked as a teacher in the

         15  primary school called Brane Copija in Omarska.

         16       Q.   Where was he during the events at Omarska?

         17       A.   Mr. Stupar, you mean?  He would come into the

         18  Omarska concentration camp frequently.  He didn't stand

         19  guard or anything like that.  He would come by from

         20  time to time.

         21       Q.   And he was a member of the police or the

         22  army?

         23       A.   He was a member of the army.  He had a green

         24  uniform.

         25       Q.   The unit to which he belonged, did it provide

Page 1832

          1  security for the Omarska compound?

          2       A.   Well, I can't answer that question.  I don't

          3  know.

          4       Q.   When did you talk to Mr. Stupar?

          5       A.   Well, I talked to him on many occasions in

          6  the Omarska camp.

          7       Q.   As a friend, did he try and help you?

          8       A.   Yes, he did, and he did help me.

          9       Q.   How did he help you?

         10       A.   He would bring me food sometimes.

         11       Q.   Did he talk to any of the official people

         12  there, the people in authority there, with respect to

         13  your status and to solving it?

         14       A.   Yes, he did.

         15       Q.   Who did he talk to?

         16       A.   To Rosic, and his father and him were the

         17  proprietors of a cafe, a restaurant in Omarska, which

         18  was called the Munich Cafe.  Probably his father worked

         19  abroad, perhaps in Munich, so that's the name he gave

         20  to his cafe.

         21       Q.   Did he talk to any of the official people

         22  from the power structure?

         23       A.   Rosic was an official person from the power

         24  structure.  It was that particular young man Rosic,

         25  that was him.

Page 1833

          1       Q.   Did he talk to Mr. Drljaca?

          2       A.   Yes, he did, he talked to Mr. Drljaca as

          3  well.

          4       Q.   What was the result of those talks?

          5       A.   He tried to get me a permit to be released

          6  from the Omarska concentration camp, at least that's

          7  what he told me and I believe him; that is to say, I

          8  believed him at the time, I really did.

          9       Q.   That means that this was with respect to your

         10  release.  He talked to Mr. Rosic and Mr. Drljaca?

         11       A.   Yes, he did.

         12       Q.   To anybody else?

         13       A.   And the guards and some other people.  But

         14  these are the two names that I know of specifically.

         15       Q.   Mr. Oklopcic, when you testified, you said,

         16  and I have the minutes here, that Mr. Meakic was the

         17  commander, that is to say, the head of security, and

         18  that you assumed that his deputy was Mr. Kvocka.  And

         19  then you go on to enumerate four reasons which lead you

         20  to make that assumption.  Is that correct?

         21       A.   Yes, it is.

         22       Q.   Did you know the organisational structure of

         23  the police of Bosnia-Herzegovina?  Not to use the

         24  actual official title.

         25       A.   Well, I believe I did.

Page 1834

          1       Q.   Did you know the organisation of the police

          2  in Prijedor, that is to say, the Public Security

          3  Station, as it was referred to?

          4       A.   Well, I didn't know the organisation but I

          5  knew most of the people there.  Who was the chief of

          6  the SUP, I can't say.

          7       Q.   Well, I want to ask you something in a

          8  slightly different direction.

          9            Did you know the rules and regulations, that

         10  is to say, in which way appointments were made and

         11  distribution of officers to different posts?

         12       A.   No, I did not.

         13       Q.   Did you -- were you acquainted with the rules

         14  regulating the way in which rifles were borne, that is

         15  to say, what officer was entitled to which type of

         16  weapon?

         17            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] The witness

         18  gave an answer, and he said no.

         19       Q.   So could you repeat for the LiveNote,

         20  please.

         21       A.   Yes, the answer is no.

         22       Q.   Do you happen to know the organisation and

         23  way in which disciplinary procedure was conducted?

         24       A.   No.

         25       Q.   When you spoke about the reasons on which you

Page 1835

          1  base your assumption, as you said, you mentioned a

          2  person called respect [Realtime transcript read in

          3  error "Despot"].

          4       A.   Yes.

          5       Q.   There is a comment to the LiveNote again.

          6  We're talking about the -- we were talking about

          7  respect, the term "respect," and the transcript has it

          8  as Despot.

          9       A.   No, I mentioned the respect of the guards to

         10  their superiors.

         11       Q.   Yes, well I'll go on to ask you what respect

         12  is.

         13            In every society, there are people who are

         14  professionals, who are honourable, who have high moral

         15  qualities.

         16       A.   They do, yes.  They do exist.

         17       Q.   Very well.  You admit that they do exist.

         18  Now, in everyday life, we always show respect towards

         19  people of that kind, do we not?

         20       A.   Yes, we do.

         21       Q.   And you said -- you made your assumption and

         22  you say that this was confirmed by the fact that

         23  Mr. Kvocka brought food to the guards.

         24       A.   Not food during lunchtime, but they were

         25  in-between meals, snacks, and during the night.  Food,

Page 1836

          1  drinks, and cigarettes.

          2       Q.   Mr. Oklopcic, you were an officer.  Now, in

          3  what system does the superior serve his subordinates

          4  and plays this role of somebody who runs their errands?

          5       A.   I don't know what system this is done.  I

          6  just told you what I saw.

          7       Q.   I wanted to take note of the fact that you

          8  don't know which system this can happen in.

          9       A.   Well, I stand by what I said.

         10       Q.   I should now like to ask you some questions

         11  about the flag.  Where was the flag pole, and you

         12  mentioned the raising of a flag.  Where was that?

         13       A.   When we came to Omarska, at the beginning,

         14  two or three weeks after that, it did not exist, that

         15  flag pole didn't exist.  After a certain amount of

         16  time, it sort of appear, and it was a pole that was

         17  placed in front of the tap and the canteen, or the main

         18  central building there [indicates], loud and clear.

         19       Q.   Can you show us, please, where this was?

         20       A.   Yes, I can.  It was at this position here

         21  [indicates].

         22       Q.   And there was a concrete slab underneath; is

         23  that right?

         24       A.   Yes.

         25       Q.   Well, how was this crooked pole put in there?

Page 1837

          1       A.   Well, I don't know, but I know that a flag

          2  was placed there.  Not at first but later on.

          3       Q.   So it was a crooked pole on this concrete

          4  slab.  When was this?

          5       A.   In the morning, when the shifts replaced each

          6  other, they would line up and hand over the shift, and

          7  we were usually on the pista, because I spent most of

          8  my time on the pista, and then we too had to get up and

          9  stand to attention during the raising of the flag

         10  ceremony.

         11            And this was not done always but there was

         12  one shift in particular which liked to raise the flag.

         13  This was not done every day.  Sometimes they would

         14  forget.  I don't know.  We didn't mind one way or

         15  another whether they would raise the flag or not.  That

         16  was the least of our problems.

         17            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

         18  it is now 11.00, and I have some 15 minutes of some

         19  very important questions.  May we have the break?  We

         20  have just established contact it appears, and

         21  Mr. Oklopcic has started answering my questions with

         22  clearer answers.

         23            So I respect the objections, but I would like

         24  to say that my witness did give very broad answers and

         25  brought us in a very difficult position.  He is now

Page 1838

          1  answering more clearly, Your Honour.

          2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think,

          3  Mr. Simic, that -- I thought, Mr. Simic, that you were

          4  going to say that you would like two or three minutes

          5  more and that you would be ending.  Unfortunately,

          6  we're now going to make the break, and then you'll have

          7  the opportunity of continuing after the half hour

          8  break.  Thank you.

          9                 --- Recess taken at 11.02 a.m.

         10                 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.

         11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be

         12  seated.

         13            Mr. Simic, please continue with clear

         14  questions to the witness.

         15            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

         16  Your Honours.

         17       Q.   Mr. Oklopcic, in your statement, over a

         18  period of five or six days, you frequently mentioned

         19  the name of Mr. Kuruzovic; is that correct?

         20       A.   Yes.

         21       Q.   Who was Mr. Kuruzovic?

         22            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, for the

         23  witness.

         24       A.   Mr. Kuruzovic was the former director of the

         25  elementary school called the 16th of May, and he was

Page 1839

          1  the commander of the concentration camp in Trnopolje.

          2  He used to be my teacher, and so on.

          3            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

          4       Q.   Also in your statement, you said that during

          5  your stay in Omarska, he visited Omarska on several

          6  occasions; is that correct?

          7       A.   Yes.

          8       Q.   Also in your statement, on page 22 of the

          9  B/C/S version, page 29 of the English version, second

         10  paragraph, towards the end, I shall quote you -- you

         11  can check of course exactly what you said, so it would

         12  speed things up a bit -- you stated then that

         13  "Mr. Zeljko Meakic and Mr. Kvocka, during

         14  Mr. Kuruzovic's visit, were quiet and deferential in

         15  relation to Mr. Kuruzovic."  Is that what you said?

         16       A.   I did.

         17       Q.   Is that correct?

         18       A.   It is.

         19       Q.   You said a moment ago that Mr. Kuruzovic was

         20  a teacher and a professor.

         21       A.   He was a secondary school teacher.

         22       Q.   Is that correct?

         23       A.   Yes.

         24       Q.   Was he employed in the police?

         25       A.   He was not.

Page 1840

          1       Q.   You said in your statement that you assumed

          2  that Mr. Meakic and Mr. Kvocka were the chief of

          3  security and his deputy.

          4       A.   Yes.

          5       Q.   Can you explain why there would be this

          6  subordinate attitude of chiefs towards a person who is

          7  not in the chain of command or in the hierarchy, or in

          8  the same occupation, if you assumed they were?

          9       A.   Let me explain.  Slobodan Kuruzovic had the

         10  rank of major in the former Yugoslav People's Army.

         11  And from the beginning he participated in the war in

         12  Croatia --

         13       Q.   Will you please just answer my question.  You

         14  have opened an interesting question.  Was there ever a

         15  command structure between the army and the police?

         16       A.   The army and the police cooperated.

         17       Q.   My question was clear.

         18       A.   I don't know.

         19       Q.   Talking about Mr. Kuruzovic, after you left

         20  Omarska, did you meet him again?

         21       A.   I did.

         22       Q.   When?

         23       A.   In the Trnopolje concentration camp.

         24       Q.   Did Mr. Kuruzovic make any decisions

         25  regarding your release?

Page 1841

          1       A.   Yes.

          2       Q.   What did he have to do?

          3       A.   He had to sign a release paper.  No one could

          4  leave the Trnopolje concentration camp without the

          5  signature of Slobodan Kuruzovic on a release document.

          6       Q.   Could Mr. Meakic sign such a release paper?

          7       A.   As far as I know, he could not.

          8       Q.   Thank you.  Let us now try and clarify a few

          9  points that are not quite clear from your testimony,

         10  regarding specific events.

         11            During your interview, you described an

         12  incident in connection with the killing of Mr. Nasic.

         13  You said that it occurred around the 10th of July.

         14       A.   A week or ten days after my arrival.

         15       Q.   Is that correct?

         16       A.   Yes.

         17       Q.   You also described the event.

         18       A.   I did.

         19       Q.   But during your testimony last week, you

         20  stated that after the event, that same evening, the

         21  prisoners were addressed by Mr. Meakic.

         22       A.   The next day and the morning, but they were

         23  present that same evening.

         24       Q.   Let us clear that up, then.  You're saying

         25  that both Mr. Meakic and Mr. Kvocka were present in the

Page 1842

          1  Omarska camp when this incident occurred, when

          2  Mr. Nasic was killed.

          3       A.   Yes.

          4       Q.   Who addressed the prisoners the next day?

          5       A.   Zeljko Meakic.

          6       Q.   What about Mr. Kvocka?

          7       A.   I think he did but I'm not quite sure.  I

          8  know that both of them were present that same evening,

          9  Mr. Meakic and Mr. Kvocka.

         10       Q.   You said very explicitly, Mr. Oklopcic,

         11  confirming your assumption regarding the position held

         12  by Mr. Meakic and Mr. Kvocka as commanders of the

         13  guards and deputy commanders, that they worked in

         14  different shifts of 24 hours each, that they took

         15  turns.  Is that correct?

         16       A.   It is.

         17       Q.   Thank you very much.  Let me just, however,

         18  say that last time you said that they addressed the

         19  prisoners that same evening, but we won't go into

         20  that.

         21            I should like to go back to the events of the

         22  30th of May, the event that you have described.  I'm

         23  paraphrasing, almost quoting what you said.  You said

         24  that the previous bus stopped, and you showed us where,

         25  that you waited to disembark; that at one point

Page 1843

          1  shooting broke out; that you had to bend down your

          2  heads; that you didn't see anything, you just heard it;

          3  when you got off you saw blood being washed; you went

          4  to Mujo's room and you heard that in the shooting, a

          5  father and son, Avdo and Asaf Kapetanovic, had been

          6  killed.  Is that correct?

          7       A.   Correct.

          8       Q.   Mr. Oklopcic, on page 4 of your statement,

          9  second paragraph, in the English version, page 5,

         10  second paragraph, you explicitly stated:  "I saw, when

         11  Cigo opened fire from an automatic weapon on a group of

         12  persons who were all five metres away from Cigo.  They

         13  were waiting for their turn to stand up against the

         14  wall like the other persons in their group.  I was 15

         15  to 20 metres away.  I saw that Avdo Kapetanovic and his

         16  son Asaf Kapetanovic were hit and fell immediately

         17  after the shooting.  Panic was created in the group."

         18            Mr. Oklopcic, a moment ago you explained to

         19  Mr. Nikolic that this statement was the result of 50 or

         20  60 hours of interviewing.  Which of the two is true

         21  regarding the event of the 30th of May, 1992, what you

         22  told during your testimony or what you explicitly

         23  described in your statement?  The position, where you

         24  stood, what you saw, and the men falling.

         25       A.   The real truth is what I described here in

Page 1844

          1  court.  I didn't know Cigo, nor did I see Cigo kill

          2  anyone.  I could have insisted on this statement.  I'm

          3  sure it was a mistake.  I often had different

          4  interpreters, they changed.  The truth is I didn't see

          5  Cigo kill them, I didn't see the two -- the father and

          6  son die.  It was only later on that I learnt about it

          7  from other people when I entered the room.  That is the

          8  truth.

          9       Q.   I had to mention this because it is stated

         10  clearly in your statement, but let's move on.

         11            I should like to go back to the killings in

         12  July, and that will bring to an end my

         13  cross-examination.  You stated that you were an

         14  eyewitness of the beating of Mr. Ramadanovic, nickname

         15  Cifut.  Is that correct?

         16       A.   Yes.  No, "Cigut" is another name for a

         17  dish.  So Mr. Krstic made a mistake and said "Cigut"

         18  instead of "Cifut".

         19       Q.   You still claim that Mr. Ramadanovic died

         20  from the consequences of this beating.

         21       A.   I do.  Not only that beating, but the one

         22  that preceded it as well.

         23       Q.   Did you know Mr. Ramadanovic?

         24       A.   Extremely well.

         25       Q.   Did he have any health problems?

Page 1845

          1       A.   He was an elderly man.  But whether he had

          2  any health problems, I don't know.

          3       Q.   After Mr. Ramadanovic, you also referred to

          4  an incident with Mr. Rizo Hadzalic, also in July.

          5       A.   Yes.

          6       Q.   You stated that his beating occurred in front

          7  of the administrative, or what you call the central

          8  building, where he was waiting to go in for

          9  interrogation; is that correct?

         10       A.   Yes.

         11       Q.   The cause for the beating, according to what

         12  you said, was the word he used "Bujrum," addressed to

         13  one of the guards who was eating.

         14       A.   Correct.

         15       Q.   As we come from the same parts and we are

         16  familiar with words of Turkish origin, and we know what

         17  it means and you explained, in answer to the question

         18  of His Honour Judge Riad, you said that it meant "Help

         19  yourself" or "You're welcome to join in."  Mr. Rizo

         20  Hadzalic wasn't eating.  How did he use this word of

         21  Turkish origin, meaning "Join me in my meal"?

         22       A.   He said -- when people eat in our part of the

         23  country, you know that you're very well because as you

         24  just said we come from the same parts.  It is

         25  customary, if you or I am eating, you offer food to

Page 1846

          1  someone standing and watching.  And he was meant --

          2  what he meant was because he was eating that he should

          3  have said "Bujrum."  He perhaps expected the guard to

          4  offer him some food, to join him in his meal.  And then

          5  what happened happened.  You know that these words of

          6  Turkish origin were not used only by Muslims; there

          7  were quite a number of Serbs using it.

          8       Q.   Exactly.  That's what I meant.  You

          9  personally watched this beating up.

         10       A.   I did personally.

         11       Q.   Let me ask you two or three more brief

         12  questions.

         13       A.   Only two or three?

         14       Q.   Mr. Oklopcic, do you know who was responsible

         15  for organising the food, such as it was, in the camp?

         16       A.   I do not know.

         17       Q.   Do you know to whom the investigators were

         18  answerable?

         19       A.   I don't know.  You mean those who

         20  questioned -- interrogated the prisoners?  I don't

         21  know.

         22       Q.   Do you know, or rather within the security

         23  services or in general, were there members who used to

         24  work in the Omarska company?

         25       A.   You mean the mine, among the prisoners?

Page 1847

          1       Q.   No.  No, among the people working in the

          2  security service.

          3       A.   I can't answer that question.  I know people

          4  who worked in the school.  Yes, there were people who

          5  used to work there.  Yes, that is correct.  I see what

          6  you're asking me now.

          7       Q.   Let me make myself quite clear.  Within the

          8  framework of the organisation, such as it existed,

          9  there were a certain number of persons who were

         10  employed in the Omarska mine.

         11       A.   You mean during the period when it was a

         12  camp?

         13       Q.   Yes.

         14       A.   Two or three civilians.

         15       Q.   I see.  Who was their superior?

         16       A.   I have no idea.

         17       Q.   Mr. Oklopcic, I have no further questions,

         18  and I hope you will be able to return home as soon as

         19  possible.

         20       A.   I hope you will go home, too, soon.

         21            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

         22  Your Honour.  I have finished my cross-examination.

         23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,

         24  Mr. Simic.

         25            Mr. Keegan.

Page 1848

          1            MR. KEEGAN:  Before the next counsel starts

          2  his cross, can I just raise a matter to answer some of

          3  the issues raised by Mr. Simic, because I'm concerned

          4  they may come up again, and I'd like to clear the air.

          5  Could we do it in private session, please, turn off the

          6  public microphones?

          7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  We're

          8  going into private session, then, please.

          9                 [Private session]

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Page 1854

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         16                 [Open session]

         17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are now

         18  in public session, and you may commence.  Please excuse

         19  me, Mr. Fila.

         20            MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

         21       Q.   Mr. Oklopcic, I shall be as brief as possible

         22  and go through your statement, because you made some

         23  imprecise answers.  I don't doubt the truth of them,

         24  your statements, but they were not just not precise

         25  enough.

Page 1855

          1            Tell us what happened on the 30th of May,

          2  1992.  With respect to that, your statement in the

          3  examination-in-chief differs form -- your testimony in

          4  the examination-in-chief differs from your statement

          5  because you said the alleged attack.

          6       A.   We're talking about the 30th of May.

          7       Q.   Yes.  The 30th of May.  The 30th of May.

          8  It's clearer there.  In the statement, you say that

          9  70 to 150 people attacked a town full of Serb

         10  soldiers.  You don't know why this happened, but they

         11  took over Radio Prijedor and that you joined them?

         12       A.   No.  No.

         13       Q.   What that how it was?

         14       A.   Yes.

         15       Q.   Now, did this attack exist or not?

         16       A.   You call it an attack, but I call it an

         17  attempt to liberate the town.

         18       Q.   Yes.  Very well.  Very well.  I accept that.

         19  Once again, there was a Professor Lukic, and he said

         20  that 90 per cent of the misunderstandings between us is

         21  the terms we use.  So it existed?

         22       A.   Yes, it did.

         23            THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers please

         24  slow down, please.  The interpreters kindly request

         25  this.

Page 1856

          1            MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

          2       Q.   Were some people taken prisoner and later on

          3  did you later see them in Omarska, from that attempt to

          4  liberate the town, as you call it?

          5       A.   Yes, I did.  A number of people were taken

          6  into custody, and I saw them during my stay in Omarska,

          7  and later on, if they were arrested --

          8            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please make

          9  pauses in between questions and answers, otherwise, you

         10  can speak outside the courtroom, because I think you're

         11  here for us to understand you.  But if you continue

         12  like that, you can go outside the courtroom, you can

         13  talk together, and we can do something else.  So please

         14  think of us, not only the interpreters, but us Judges

         15  as well, and the court reporters as well.

         16            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I do apologise,

         17  Your Honour.

         18       Q.   So there were people taken prisoner, you saw

         19  some of them?

         20       A.   Yes, I did.

         21       Q.   And you say that some people were brought in

         22  later on, probably as the result of being caught.

         23       A.   Yes, being caught later on.

         24       Q.   Very well.  Do you rank them among civilians,

         25  the civilian population, in the Omarska camp?

Page 1857

          1       A.   I do include them among the civilian

          2  population, and I'll tell you the reasons for that.

          3  Those young men, there were about 100 of them, first of

          4  all did not receive weapons from the Yugoslav army or

          5  from the police.  Therefore, they were civilians.  How

          6  they came by these weapons, how they purchased the

          7  weapons, that is another question altogether.  But the

          8  difference between the civilian and, let us say, the

          9  army peaks and police peaks was that the Serbian

         10  population had received weapons from the police forces

         11  and the Yugoslav forces.  These young men who tried to

         12  liberate the town or to return the town, get the town

         13  back, as I say, had no weapons at all, and this turned

         14  out to be seen later on.  But they had very poor

         15  weapons.  They had pistols of some kind.  That's why I

         16  say that I do rank them among the civilians, because

         17  it's a difference between the regular army and

         18  civilians who got their weapons -- came by weapons in

         19  some way and tried to liberate the town.

         20       Q.   But you'll agree with me that they were young

         21  male men with weapons who came by those weapons in an

         22  illegitimate way.

         23       A.   Yes, I do agree with you there.

         24       Q.   Thank you.  The checkpoint that existed at

         25  Hambarine, were those people armed there, the ones that

Page 1858

          1  manned it?

          2       A.   I wasn't there.  Probably they were.

          3       Q.   Did they get their weapons in a regular

          4  fashion?  Because you said it was the Territorial

          5  Defence, did you not?

          6       A.   No.  I said no.  The Territorial Defence,

          7  when the town was taken over, all the weapons of the

          8  Territorial Defence was given to the hands of the

          9  Serbian population on the 30th of April.

         10       Q.   So the word "Territorial Defence" cannot be

         11  used for people who were at the checkpoints in

         12  Hambarine.

         13       A.   Probably not, no.

         14       Q.   Asked by Mr. Keegan, you said that injured

         15  Serb soldiers said something in an interview on

         16  television or on the radio, whatever.

         17       A.   Yes, I did state that.  On Serbian

         18  television.  I said that he spoke on Serbian

         19  television.

         20       Q.   But what did he say?

         21       A.   He said that the patrol, there were four or

         22  five of them in the car, that they were attacked at

         23  that checkpoint.

         24       Q.   In the period of May 1992, that is to say,

         25  before that attempt at liberation, could you tell us,

Page 1859

          1  if you happen to recall, when did the first Muslim die?

          2       A.   The first Muslim, when he died, you want to

          3  know.  Well, he died in the Prijedor area, that's what

          4  I mean.

          5       Q.   Yes.  Which means Kozarac and all the rest?

          6       A.   A distinguished citizen from Brezicani was

          7  killed.  I think his name was Jusuf Kucukovic.  And

          8  this happened, this occurred in the period before the

          9  attack or the liberation of Prijedor.  What the date

         10  was exactly, I cannot recall.

         11       Q.   What about Kozarac on the 25th?  Did anything

         12  happen there?

         13       A.   Yes.  The Serb army attacked Kozarac, and a

         14  Muslim died, I assume there.  Not one, many.

         15       Q.   I mean 25.  I don't want to speak instead of

         16  you.  I know exactly what happened, and that's why I

         17  said "some," which means more than one.  Was this event

         18  before or after that?

         19       A.   The killing of Jusuf Kucukovic, that was

         20  before.

         21       Q.   Do you know anything about that Kucukovic in

         22  relation to Hambarine or can't you say?

         23       A.   Yes, I can.  It was before the attack.

         24       Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  In your testimony,

         25  you mentioned a number of guards and names who were in

Page 1860

          1  Krkan's shift, and after Krkan's shift, so on and so

          2  forth.  Now, I would like to know the following to

          3  clarify something about that individual and I can't

          4  ascertain who that individual is.  You mentioned a

          5  certain person named -- I think he was a guard.  His

          6  name was Pavlic?

          7       A.   Yes, I did.

          8       Q.   My first question:  Is that his name or his

          9  nickname?

         10       A.   It is his surname.

         11       Q.   Yes.  That's what I meant, his surname.

         12       A.   Yes, it's his surname, and his name was

         13  Milan.  So Milan Pavlic.

         14       Q.   Can I then state that it wasn't Pavlovic or

         15  Popovic either?

         16       A.   Yes, that's right.

         17       Q.   Thank you very much.  Can you describe this

         18  man to us?  Did he have any characteristic traits on

         19  his head or on his hair?

         20       A.   Yes.  He had a white strand.  He had died his

         21  hair white, a strand of white hair here in front.

         22  Otherwise he had dark hair.  He was a bit larger than

         23  me.  I'm large, but he was even larger.  And he was

         24  under the age of 30, thereabouts.

         25       Q.   Now, coming to organisation in the Omarska

Page 1861

          1  camp.  You spoke about the structure; I don't want to

          2  repeat that.  Do you happen to know whether they were

          3  formally appointed?  You worked in a school.  You know

          4  what it means when somebody is formally, officially

          5  appointed.  Were they officially appointed commander,

          6  deputy commander, shift commander, and so on?  Were

          7  there any official appointments?

          8       A.   Well, I'm just waiting for the Judge to

          9  understand what you're saying.  My answer to that

         10  question is I don't know.

         11       Q.   What was your source of information, then,

         12  that they were -- that -- beginning from Meakic, who is

         13  not here, and going on from there?

         14       A.   My source of information was my stay in the

         15  Omarska concentration camp.  That is my answer, number

         16  1.  Number 2, it was what the guards said amongst

         17  themselves.  They clearly talked about who the superior

         18  was in the concentration camp of Omarska.  And number

         19  3, all of us, and I say this in my statement, saw who

         20  the shifts reported to, who the shifts were handed on

         21  to, and so on.  I say that I did not see a signature,

         22  but that is my opinion and I stand by it.

         23       Q.   You mentioned a flag on a crooked pole and

         24  that there was a flag-raising ceremony.  Could you

         25  describe who was present at this flag ceremony?  Not

Page 1862

          1  the ordinary guards or somebody who had just come in to

          2  bring some food, but the people we're talking about

          3  now.

          4       A.   I've already said, the flag was not raised at

          5  the beginning, and that is why we found it strange that

          6  suddenly, after a few days had gone by, that this flag

          7  was improvised.  You know what improvisation means.  It

          8  was placed underneath the tap.  How and why, I don't

          9  know.

         10            When shifts were taken over, usually at 7.00

         11  in the morning, give or take five minutes either way,

         12  the shift leader and the commander, whether it was

         13  Kvocka or Zeljko Meakic, but usually it was the shift

         14  leader who was present.  Every time Kvocka and Meakic

         15  were not present, it was the shift leader.  And you

         16  know, when I say "shift leader," what I mean.

         17            So not those who were in the hangars; they

         18  didn't have to attend the ceremony.  It was us, we who

         19  were outside on the pista, we necessarily attended this

         20  ceremony.  And as I said, sometimes they would make fun

         21  of the whole thing.  We had to keep quiet.  But why

         22  they did that, I can't explain to you.

         23       Q.   But what did they actually do?  Not what you

         24  did.  What did they do?

         25       A.   Well, they would raise the flag, and that's

Page 1863

          1  all.  That's all.

          2       Q.   You said that you listened to a hymn, some

          3  kind of music.

          4       A.   No, I didn't say that.  I just had to sing

          5  the nationalistic songs when those people from Banja

          6  Luka or Prijedor would come.

          7       Q.   What about the flag ceremony?

          8       A.   No, nothing.  There was no music during that

          9  ceremony.

         10       Q.   I see.  No music.  In the course of your stay

         11  there, you were there for --

         12       A.   And it is the 26th of June.  I was a history

         13  teacher ten years ago, so I do remember that date.

         14       Q.   What happened on this day, Vidovdan?

         15  Anything specific?

         16       A.   Very often, in the course of my stay,

         17  helicopters would descend, military transport

         18  helicopters, and we would be forced -- you know that

         19  black belt used for the mine, mining ore, we had to --

         20  they cut -- that is to say, this belt was four metres

         21  long, approximately, and cut into sections, and it was

         22  two metres across, and we had to -- not all of us, but

         23  those of us who were selected had to load that belt

         24  onto the helicopter.  And some fire was being made and

         25  this was used.  But the guards themselves used to say

Page 1864

          1  that this belt was used to line transporters and tanks

          2  because the Zoljas, hand-held rocket launchers,

          3  couldn't hit a tank if it was lined with this.  But was

          4  any -- was there firing on Petrovdan and Vidovdan.

          5       Q.   Where were the guards from who were in

          6  Krkan's shift?

          7       A.   In Krkan's shift, I don't think they were all

          8  directly from Omarska, but they were from Jelicka and

          9  areas like that.

         10       Q.   So Omarska and Jelicka.

         11       A.   Yes, that's right.

         12       Q.   They were not from Maricka?

         13       A.   No.  I call my shift -- My shift was from

         14  Maricka.  That was the shift I knew very well.

         15       Q.   So the Maricka shift is the one you mentioned

         16  most frequently with respect to Ecim.

         17       A.   What did you say?

         18       Q.   Was in respect to Ecim?

         19       A.   No, not with respect to Ecim.  I mentioned

         20  Krkan's shift.

         21       Q.   But in your statement, that is what you say.

         22       A.   No, I'm quite sure I didn't say that.  There

         23  might be a mistake.

         24       Q.   Well, yes, nobody is perfect.

         25       A.   It's not my fault that it was Krkan's shift

Page 1865

          1  that day.  And I said that in respect to Hankin, that

          2  it was Maricka's shift and Bectr Medunjanin as well.

          3       Q.   Slavko Ecim was brought to the camp.  It is

          4  page 17, paragraph 2 of your statement, and in English

          5  it is on page 23.  The English version, page 23, the

          6  last -- no, page 22.  The English version is page 22.

          7  "On the same day, when I was interrogated ..."  I

          8  don't have to read it out.  We're all literate here.

          9  But you go on to state, "I think that the guards in the

         10  group were from Maricka."

         11       A.   That's what it says, but -- I might have said

         12  it, but it wasn't that way.  That is not how it

         13  happened.

         14       Q.   Could you please tell me one more thing, and

         15  I'll be finished in just a moment.  To put something

         16  else right, did you receive bread for food?

         17       A.   Yes, we did.

         18       Q.   For the transcript, because that was omitted

         19  from the transcript yesterday.

         20       A.   Yes, we did.  We would receive a small piece

         21  of bread, but we did receive bread, yes.

         22       Q.   And the water that you were talking about, is

         23  it the water that went through these pipes before the

         24  camp was made?

         25       A.   Probably it was.

Page 1866

          1       Q.   Did people drink it, then?

          2       A.   People probably did.  I didn't work at

          3  Omarska, so I don't know.

          4       Q.   So it wasn't special water that came out of

          5  these taps?

          6       A.   No.  I just know that later on the guards

          7  didn't drink the water from the same taps that we drank

          8  from.  Whether the water was poisoned or not, I never

          9  said that.  I can't maintain that.  I don't know.

         10            THE INTERPRETER:  This is too fast.  This is

         11  much too fast.

         12            MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

         13       Q.   In the course of your stay, you saw Krkan.

         14  Could you tell us where you saw him?

         15       A.   On the pista.  He would go past the pista,

         16  and mostly, when we went upstairs to the central

         17  building up on the upper storey where the

         18  interrogations went on.

         19       Q.   You didn't see him anywhere else?

         20       A.   Well, I did see him in other parts as well

         21  because he was there; not only him, but all the others

         22  who were in this leadership cadre, they would walk

         23  around the whole camp.  But as I was on the pista

         24  throughout that time, I saw him on many occasions, and

         25  that is no secret that he would come there and walk

Page 1867

          1  past and so on.

          2       Q.   Did you happen to see him in -- what shall I

          3  call this, this part, this glass part up here?

          4       A.   Yes, I did.  Lots of times.

          5       Q.   What did he do?

          6       A.   He was standing around and looking.  And in

          7  the evening he would just have a white vest on.

          8       Q.   So he stood and watched?

          9       A.   Yes, he did.

         10       Q.   Did he have any weapons?

         11       A.   He did not have any weapons on some

         12  occasions, and on others he did.

         13       Q.   Was there any guard post there of any kind?

         14       A.   No.

         15       Q.   Did you ever happen to see him standing guard

         16  in that area?

         17       A.   No, I didn't.  I know what you're getting

         18  at.  There's a film, you know.  A film was filmed.

         19       Q.   Yes.  Yes, I know all about that, and that is

         20  not something that is contested.

         21            During your statement, you say at one point,

         22  if I heard you correctly during your testimony, and I

         23  apologise if I heard you incorrectly -- you said, "Brk

         24  was Meakic's right hand and his assistant."  Who is

         25  Brk?  What do you mean by "Brk"?

Page 1868

          1       A.   It was a young man whose nickname was Brk or

          2  moustache in translation.  Wherever Meakic went, he

          3  went with him.  They would drive the same vehicle.

          4  They would beat the same people, people who were caught

          5  at Ljubija.  I think his surname was Tadic but I'm not

          6  sure.  Anyway, his nickname was Brk.

          7       Q.   Did he belong to any forces?  Was he the

          8  police, the army, or whatever?

          9       A.   I think he wore the uniform of a police

         10  reserve force.  It was a blue uniform.

         11       Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  Do you know what the

         12  role was of the late Simo Drljaca with respect to the

         13  camp?  You needn't -- I don't mean then, I mean

         14  generally did you know about that?

         15       A.   Well, can I say an extra sentence?  Well, I

         16  don't want to run away from the truth, I want people to

         17  understand.  You probably know that I did know Simo

         18  Drljaca because he worked as a lawyer covering all 16

         19  or 14 primary schools that existed in the Prijedor

         20  municipality.  So we did know each other well.  We

         21  would sit in at many meetings together, but I can also

         22  tell you that he was not capable as a jurist, and I

         23  don't think he ever won a case in court.  And that is

         24  why I find it all the more strange how come Mr. Drljaca

         25  should occupy such a leadership post of that kind?  Who

Page 1869

          1  had chosen him when he was incapable, as he was?  And

          2  you also asked me what role he played.  Well, he had a

          3  great role, that is my personal opinion.  I think he

          4  had a great role to play.  Whether he had somebody

          5  above him, a superior, I don't know.  But I did know

          6  him exceptionally well.

          7       Q.   So with respect to the Omarska camp, he did

          8  have some authority?

          9       A.   Yes, certainly.

         10       Q.   More or less than Meakic?

         11       A.   Yes, more or less.

         12       Q.   What did you say?

         13       A.   Greater competencies.

         14       Q.   You didn't mention Hankin in your previous

         15  statement but you mention him here.

         16       A.   I think I did.  Why it was not introduced, I

         17  don't know.

         18       Q.   Thank you.  That's an answer too.  At one

         19  given point, you state something about Soskan during

         20  the examination-in-chief.  You mentioned Soskan.  I

         21  wasn't quite clear.  Did you see him shoot or did you

         22  think that he did the shooting or did you hear that he

         23  did the shooting?

         24       A.   I heard about it.  I saw him shoot but I'm

         25  not quite sure 100 per cent.  I think, I think I said

Page 1870

          1  that I thought it was Soskan, but I am not certain.  I

          2  saw a soldier firing.

          3       Q.   But you're not 100 per cent certain that it

          4  is him.

          5       A.   Yes, I wasn't a 100 per cent sure and that is

          6  what I said in the statement.

          7       Q.   Thank you.  Now we've clarified that point

          8  which wasn't quite clear.

          9            You mentioned an individual named Timarac,

         10  Zeljko Timarac.

         11       A.   Yes.

         12       Q.   Once again, what was he there?

         13       A.   He wasn't anything.  He would just come into

         14  Omarska and abuse and kill people.

         15       Q.   Was he a civilian?

         16       A.   No, he wore a uniform.  He had a uniform on,

         17  a military uniform.

         18       Q.   Well, that's why I'm asking.  Yes, thank

         19  you.  You mentioned weapons, the weapons of certain

         20  individuals, and then you said he had a pump-action

         21  rifle.  The weapons that they had, those whom you say

         22  were commanders or shift leaders, or I didn't quite

         23  unless you, but was there any difference between them

         24  and the other guards?

         25       A.   Yes, they were different.

Page 1871

          1       Q.   How were they different?

          2       A.   Well, Milojica Kos, for example, he didn't

          3  have a rifle, he just had a pistol.

          4       Q.   What about Krkan?

          5       A.   Sometimes, when he was on the pista, he never

          6  carried an automatic rifle, but as you say, on one of

          7  the pictures he was carrying an automatic rifle.  Miro

          8  Kvocka did not always have a pump-action gun with him,

          9  but he did have one.  Zeljko Markovic had a pistol,

         10  sometimes he did not have any automatic weaponry.

         11       Q.   What about the other guards?  Did they have

         12  weapons at all times or did they not have them at

         13  times?

         14       A.   They had weapons at all times.

         15       Q.   It never happened that a reserve guard or

         16  some one did not have a weapon?

         17       A.   Yes, when he was having a rest and he would

         18  put it down beside him.

         19       Q.   Well, yes, but otherwise that's that.

         20  Finally, sir, you've gone through some bad times and

         21  seen some even worse things from your personal

         22  experience because some people fared worse than you.

         23  Do you feel any -- do you feel the need for revenge?

         24  Do you feel the urge for revenge of any kind?

         25            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just a

Page 1872

          1  minute, Mr. Fila.  I see that Madam Hollis is on her

          2  feet.

          3            MS. HOLLIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I'm

          4  just interrupting on behalf of the court reporter who

          5  is indicating that she's not getting any of this

          6  exchange.  I wanted to perhaps have us slow down.

          7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, it's

          8  always the same question.  You must make pauses between

          9  questions and answers.  Otherwise, everything gets

         10  mixed up, you overlap each other.  So please try and

         11  pay attention to that.  We will be very grateful to

         12  you.  Thank you.

         13            MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

         14       Q.   I like the fact that you said that you were

         15  sorry that the Serbs had been killed.  I am also sorry

         16  that other people had been killed, Croats as well.

         17  They're neither yours nor mine, so we're sorry about

         18  them too.

         19       A.   Well, I have friends who are Serbs and

         20  Croats, but I'm a Macedonian which is something else

         21  again, but never mind.

         22       Q.   Do you feel any hatred towards a whole

         23  peoples or not?  Do you feel the need for revenge of

         24  any kind?  I'd like to hear your answer?

         25       A.   Well, I thought that somebody might ask me

Page 1873

          1  that, and I don't want to say that I was ready for an

          2  answer.  But you must understand that I do hate, but to

          3  do them what they did to my people, I would never do to

          4  them what they did to us.  I hope that they will get

          5  proper justice in the eyes of God and before this Court

          6  as well.

          7       Q.   I asked you something else, towards the

          8  people.  I hope you don't feel any hatred towards

          9  people.  That's what I wanted to say.  Thank you.

         10            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

         11  very much, Mr. Fila.

         12            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your

         13  Honour.

         14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We're now

         15  going to hear Mr. Jovan Simic.

         16            Mr. Simic, you have the floor, if you

         17  please.

         18            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

         19  Your Honour.

         20            Before beginning with the cross-examination,

         21  I should like to tender into evidence the Serbian

         22  version of a document compiled by the witness himself,

         23  and the English translation of the same, and the B/C/S

         24  version, marked 22nd of June, or rather the code of the

         25  country.  It appears to have been made in 1995, which

Page 1874

          1  we didn't know.  I apologise.  I made an omission.  The

          2  English version is here.

          3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me,

          4  but I think that we have here two documents.  We have

          5  the translation of only one of the two, I don't know

          6  whether there is another.

          7            Mr. Dubuisson, we have two versions in

          8  English, do we?

          9            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The document

         10  that I have in front of me is only in one version, in

         11  English.

         12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  But I

         13  think that we have two B/C/S documents, a manuscript

         14  and another typed text, with the mark "22nd of June" in

         15  B/C/S, and we have the translation only of the

         16  manuscript.

         17            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

         18  the document written by hand and the document

         19  translated into English are one and the same document,

         20  in fact.  The B/C/S version, with an English

         21  translation, that is how it was disclosed to us in the

         22  supporting material.  Another document is a statement

         23  that Mr. Keegan said was marked 22nd June, and it

         24  represents the country in which it was given.  We do

         25  not have an English version, nor did we ever receive

Page 1875

          1  it, and that is why we are tendering it in the original

          2  that was disclosed to us, that is, in the B/C/S

          3  language.

          4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see

          5  things are clearer now.  Can the registrar give us the

          6  number of this exhibit so we can identify the

          7  document.

          8            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The document

          9  "22nd June", only in B/C/S, will be marked D2/5, and

         10  the other document for which we have an English

         11  translation will be D1/5, D1/5A for the English

         12  version, which is a translation.

         13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

         14  we are now able to begin, and once we have the

         15  documents marked, it is easier to use the code,

         16  please.  So you may begin, Mr. Simic.  I think we are

         17  in a position to be able to do so.

         18                 Cross-examined by Mr. J. Simic:

         19       Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Oklopcic, good day to

         20  you.

         21       A.   Good day.

         22       Q.   Will you please take this list, marked D1/5,

         23  which is in fact a list of the most responsible people

         24  that you compiled by yourself, by hand.  Did you write

         25  it?

Page 1876

          1       A.   I did.

          2       Q.   So this document consists of --

          3            JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Excuse me.

          4  There's no translation.

          5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

          6  Mr. O'Sullivan?

          7            MR. O'SULLIVAN:  I have a question about the

          8  way these documents are marked.  It says -- I heard

          9  D2/5 and D1/5.

         10            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

         11  Mr. O'Sullivan, excuse me, I wasn't able to follow

         12  you.  I apologise.  Could you repeat your remark?

         13            MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Yes, Your Honour.  My

         14  question concerns the way these documents were marked.

         15  The numbering they received, I heard D1/5 and D2/5.  If

         16  I'm mistaken, please correct me, but I believe that

         17  Prcac is the fifth accused and it should be D5/1 and

         18  D5/2, unless I stand corrected.

         19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

         20  very much, Mr. O'Sullivan.  Let us see with

         21  Mr. Dubuisson.

         22            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] No.  We no

         23  longer use that system.  We use the slash and the

         24  number attributed to the accused last.  For Kvocka, it

         25  was D24/1.  In this case, it is D1/5.

Page 1877

          1            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Is that

          2  clear now, Mr. O'Sullivan?  Thank you.

          3            I apologise for interrupting you.  Just a

          4  moment, please.

          5                 [Trial Chamber confers]

          6            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Now,

          7  Mr. Jovan Simic, I apologise once again.  Please

          8  proceed.

          9            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

         10  Your Honour.

         11       Q.   Mr. Oklopcic, you compiled this list.

         12       A.   I did.

         13            THE INTERPRETER:  The witness is having

         14  problems with the interpretation.  He is not getting

         15  the interpretation.

         16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hear it now.

         17            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I

         18  apologise.  It is probably our mistake.  We found the

         19  English version of the document marked D2/5.  So we

         20  haven't had the time to photocopy it, but we would like

         21  to tender it and we will photocopy it later, if we

         22  may.

         23       Q.   Mr. Oklopcic, we will finally get going, I

         24  hope.  So on this document, you made a list of the most

         25  responsible people.

Page 1878

          1       A.   I did.

          2       Q.   In the Prijedor municipality.

          3       A.   Yes.

          4       Q.   In the Omarska camp.

          5       A.   Yes.

          6       Q.   The guard leaders and guards, the inspectors

          7  and interrogators.

          8       A.   As far as I was able to remember at the

          9  time.

         10       Q.   And the people who were taken away and

         11  liquidated, who were exchanged, who were missing.  And

         12  on page 4, you signed this document, saying that the

         13  names from 1 to 4 are truthful and authentic.  Is that

         14  correct?

         15       A.   It is.

         16       Q.   When did you compile this list?

         17       A.   In 1993.

         18       Q.   When in 1993?

         19       A.   At the beginning of 1993.

         20       Q.   So that was almost immediately after your

         21  release, so I assume your memory was best then.

         22       A.   Yes.

         23       Q.   My question is:  If you compiled such a list

         24  in December --

         25       A.   Not in December.

Page 1879

          1       Q.   In January, I'm sorry.  In January.  Why did

          2  you not mention then Dragoljub Prcac?

          3       A.   I will answer your question.  Dragoljub Prcac

          4  was someone I did not know personally, and I saw him

          5  least in the camp.  At that time I would have forgotten

          6  many others.  If somebody had mentioned the name at the

          7  time I was writing this list, I would have asked who

          8  that man was.

          9       Q.   So that means that you acquired knowledge

         10  about Dragoljub Prcac later on.

         11       A.   No, I had him in mind from the first day,

         12  like all the others.  But Dragoljub Prcac, for me, was

         13  not as important at the time as the others.

         14       Q.   Why was he not so important?

         15       A.   Because I would see Mr. Dragoljub Prcac only

         16  as one of the leaders in the camp.  I didn't see him

         17  much anyway.  He appeared later in the camp.

         18       Q.   So you see him as a leader of the camp?

         19       A.   One of the leaders.  A commander of the

         20  camp.

         21       Q.   You didn't mention him in your statement of

         22  December 1994.

         23       A.   I don't remember.

         24       Q.   You didn't mention him in the statement that

         25  has just been admitted into evidence.

Page 1880

          1       A.   Probably.  I don't know.

          2       Q.   You didn't mention him today when you were

          3  asked about who wore what kind of weapons.

          4       A.   I think it's better that I didn't.

          5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Jovan

          6  Simic, don't make assertions.  Ask questions.  Ask

          7  questions.

          8            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I apologise,

          9  Your Honour.

         10       Q.   Did you see him often outside the

         11  administrative building?

         12       A.   Towards the end.  At first I didn't.

         13       Q.   Where did he move around most?

         14       A.   Like all the others, in front of the central

         15  building, upstairs, downstairs, and so on.

         16       Q.   What did he carry as a weapon?

         17       A.   An automatic rifle.

         18       Q.   Always?

         19       A.   No, not always.  He had a pistol but

         20  sometimes he wore an automatic rifle.

         21       Q.   How was he dressed?

         22       A.   He was dressed in military uniform.

         23       Q.   What colour?

         24       A.   The former SMB, or olive-grey.

         25       Q.   So in connection with an event that you

Page 1881

          1  mentioned, would you please briefly, so as not to take

          2  too much time, can you tell us the date of that event,

          3  and then I will ask you about certain persons.  You

          4  spoke about Nasic.  I would like to know when, roughly,

          5  this occurred, not to the day but an approximation.

          6       A.   Yes, I can.  It was, I said that today and

          7  also the last time, it was seven or ten days after

          8  arrival in our camp.

          9       Q.   You were then at the pista, weren't you?

         10       A.   No.  When Mehmedalija Nasic was killed, I was

         11  in the central building, in the canteen.

         12       Q.   Was Edin Crnalic present then?  Do you know

         13  him?

         14       A.   Yes, he was present.

         15       Q.   Was Mirsad Alisic present?

         16       A.   Yes, he was.

         17       Q.   Was Jasmir Okic present?

         18       A.   Yes, he was.  I think they were.  I'm not

         19  sure, but I think they were.

         20       Q.   When Hankin was killed --

         21       A.   Yes.

         22       Q.   -- when was that?

         23       A.   This was two or three weeks in June, end of

         24  June.  Something like that.

         25       Q.   Was Senad Ferhatovic present?

Page 1882

          1       A.   I think he was.  I know who you mean, but I

          2  mentioned those whom I could remember.

          3       Q.   Was (redacted) present?

          4       A.   I don't know.

          5       Q.   Was Amir Mesic present?

          6       A.   I don't know.

          7       Q.   Was Nedim Kapetanovic present?

          8       A.   I can't remember.

          9       Q.   When Becir Medjunjanin was victimised, when

         10  was that?  Was Anes Medjunjanin there and Mokic Fedul

         11  [phoen], Sead Cikota?

         12       A.   He was.

         13       Q.   Abdulah Brkic?  Do you know Abdulah Brkic?

         14       A.   I don't know now.  Some time has gone by

         15  since then.

         16       Q.   Riza Hadzalic, you remember the event that

         17  you described.  Was Ferhatovic present?

         18       A.   I think he was.

         19       Q.   Was Hodzic present?

         20       A.   He was.

         21       Q.   Nusret Sivac?  Edin Crnalic?

         22       A.   I think he was.

         23       Q.   (redacted)

         24       A.   I think he was.

         25       Q.   Mirsad Alisic?

Page 1883

          1       A.   I think he was.

          2       Q.   Mirsada Hadzalic?

          3       A.   Mirsada Hadzalic was not present.  She was

          4  brought in later on, after her man, Riza Hadzalic, had

          5  been killed.

          6       Q.   Nusreta Sivac.

          7       A.   She was in the camp but I don't know whether

          8  she was present.

          9       Q.   Omer Mesanovic?

         10       A.   I can't remember.

         11       Q.   Fehim Fazlic?

         12       A.   I think he was.

         13       Q.   Abdulah Brkic?

         14       A.   I don't know.

         15       Q.   The case with Cifut Ramadanovic, when was

         16  that roughly?

         17       A.   Sometime in July.  I think it was the

         18  beginning of July 1992.

         19       Q.   Do you remember whether Besim Hodzic was

         20  present?

         21       A.   I think Besim Hodzic was almost always with

         22  his sons at the pista.  I know these people you are

         23  listing extremely well.

         24       Q.   Nedim Kapetanovic?

         25       A.   I don't know.

Page 1884

          1       Q.   One further question.

          2            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I apologise,

          3  Your Honour.  No further questions, Your Honour.

          4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

          5  Mr. Jovan Simic.

          6            Mr. Tosic, how much time do you need, more or

          7  less?

          8            MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in

          9  view of the time for the break, our suggestion would be

         10  that we begin the cross-examination after the break.

         11  Maybe we could begin a couple of minutes earlier,

         12  because we certainly can't finish the cross in these

         13  couple of minutes that remain.

         14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

         15  very much for your suggestion.  But I was asking how

         16  much time you need more or less.

         17            MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] By the end of the

         18  working day, we will finish our cross-examination.  I

         19  don't think we will go into the next day of hearing.

         20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But many of

         21  the questions have already been asked.  Never mind.  We

         22  shall have a half hour break now.

         23            MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your

         24  Honour.

         25                 --- Recess taken at 12.53 p.m.

Page 1885

          1                 --- On resuming at 1.20 p.m.

          2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be

          3  seated.  We are resuming the hearing.

          4            Who is going to cross-examine, Mr. Tosic or

          5  Mr. Stojanovic?  Either change your seats or the

          6  microphone.

          7            MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, on

          8  behalf of the Defence team of Zoran Zigic, my colleague

          9  Slobodan Stojanovic will be cross-examining the

         10  witness, so there's no need for us to change seats.

         11  Thank you.

         12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

         13  I beg your pardon.  You may begin, Mr. Stojanovic.

         14            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

         15  Your Honours.  I think it is a good idea for us to

         16  share out this truly difficult task.

         17                 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

         18       Q.   I would prefer to discuss with you my

         19  favourite subjects, such as history and geography.

         20  Unfortunately, it is my duty to discuss with you

         21  something that I consider to be most unpleasant myself,

         22  but I'm sure it is even worse for you, but it is my

         23  duty as the Defence counsel to ask you about these

         24  things.

         25            On the first day of your testimony, you began

Page 1886

          1  with events in 1991, saying that already then your

          2  colleagues had started wearing JNA uniforms.  In 1995

          3  [sic], was the SFRY still the country of all the

          4  citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

          5       A.   You mentioned 1995.  I think you made a

          6  mistake.

          7       Q.   Yes, I beg your pardon.  1991.

          8       A.   It was the country of all the citizens of

          9  Bosnia-Herzegovina.

         10       Q.   We are talking about 1991.  According to the

         11  then constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina, did it clearly

         12  provide for the obligation of all citizens of that

         13  republic to defend the Yugoslavia of that day?

         14       A.   I think it did.

         15       Q.   On that occasion you mentioned a number of

         16  times that on the 30th of April, 1992 -- we are talking

         17  about the first day of your testimony -- the Serb

         18  Crisis Staff took over power in Prijedor.  Before that,

         19  shall we say from October 1991, was there another

         20  Crisis Staff in existence?

         21       A.   No.  An attempt was made to constitute what

         22  we could call a government of Prijedor municipality.

         23  On the basis of the results of the elections in 1991,

         24  the power was still shared.

         25       Q.   May I then ask you, and I don't know whether

Page 1887

          1  this question was permitted or not, was this Crisis

          2  Staff composed exclusively of Muslims -- I can give you

          3  the composition, to remind the witness -- from October

          4  of 1991.

          5       A.   I don't know exactly who was a member, if

          6  there was any such body.

          7       Q.   May I remind you of that, then.  Muhamed

          8  Cehajic was president; Mirsad Medjujavic [phoen],

          9  Mustafa Hodzic, Hilmija Popovec, and Dzamil Pezer.

         10       A.   That was not a Crisis Staff.  Those were the

         11  leaders of the SDA party at the time.  I think you know

         12  what is a Crisis Staff and what are party leaders.

         13  They did not take over power by force of arms as the

         14  Serb Crisis Staff did.

         15       Q.   On the first day of your testimony, if I am

         16  not mistaken, you also mentioned the words "so-called

         17  Serbo-Croatian language."  What do you mean?  Was it

         18  not the official language throughout the existence of

         19  the former Yugoslavia?

         20       A.   As a historian, you certainly know that that

         21  language was imposed with the creation of the first

         22  common state, the "common state."  As soon as the

         23  former Yugoslavia collapsed, you couldn't say that you

         24  were speaking Croatian in Serbia or Serbian in Croatia,

         25  or anything else.  It was called the Serbo-Croatian

Page 1888

          1  language; it is no where called by that name any

          2  longer.

          3       Q.   I am not aware that in Serbia the

          4  Serbo-Croatian language had any negative implications.

          5       A.   I'm talking about the period of the war.

          6       Q.   You also said that Ekavica was spoken in

          7  Serbia and Montenegro.  Is the Ekavica dialect used

          8  throughout Serbia?

          9       A.   I know it is spoken in Serbia, Vojvodina,

         10  Sandzak.  I mentioned that it was never spoken in

         11  Bosnia, and that is a fact.

         12       Q.   But you said it was also spoken in

         13  Montenegro.  Is it spoken anywhere in Montenegro?

         14       A.   I think it is.

         15       Q.   You also mentioned Senija Dzafic as an

         16  announcer and traitor in your written statement, which

         17  was tendered today, dated 1994.  You also mentioned her

         18  husband.  What ethnic group did they belong to?

         19       A.   I think they were Muslims.

         20       Q.   Were they fired from their job?

         21       A.   They were not because they placed themselves

         22  in the service.  They found somebody who would read

         23  those lies on the radio, and they found her.  That is

         24  my opinion, when I call her a traitor.

         25       Q.   That is precisely what I wanted to refer to.

Page 1889

          1  Is a Muslim who was in favour of the survival of

          2  Bosnia-Herzegovina and Yugoslavia a traitor?

          3       A.   At first it was only us Muslims who

          4  championed the survival of the former Yugoslavia.

          5  However, when we saw what the Serbian military were

          6  preparing for us, we were naturally against it.

          7       Q.   But what was your attitude towards people who

          8  favoured, what I could call, a Serb option, the

          9  Muslims?

         10       A.   Before the war I respected the former state;

         11  I admit that and speak in sincerity.  As soon as the

         12  war began, I started to hate them.  I think you

         13  understand why.

         14       Q.   You said that there were certain changes in

         15  the media.  You no longer listened to the Sarajevo

         16  media and that the area of Prijedor was limited to

         17  Belgrade media.  Can I ask whether the Sarajevo media

         18  changed also?  For example, the journal Novi Voks, have

         19  you ever heard of it, from Sarajevo?

         20       A.   Never.

         21       Q.   Were there any changes in the Sarajevo media

         22  in that same period?

         23       A.   I cannot judge.  I always read Sarajevo

         24  papers; they were closer to me.  Sometimes I read the

         25  Belgrade papers, like Ekspres Politika.  I didn't go

Page 1890

          1  into the details of any changes.

          2            However, when the relay station on Mount

          3  Kozara was turned towards the Serb transmitters, when

          4  we started viewing only Serb programmes, when we

          5  started receiving only Serb press, Borba Ekspres

          6  Politika, I believe you will understand why I changed

          7  face.

          8       Q.   My learned friend Fila has already touched

          9  upon a question that I wanted to refer to, and that is

         10  the Muslim attack, or the resistance, as you call it.

         11  Let me just complete that part of the testimony

         12  relating to that chapter, if I may call it that.

         13            Do you know from what part of the city that

         14  resistance movement, if I can call it that, entered

         15  Prijedor?

         16       A.   I think I do.  It came from the left bank of

         17  the Sana River, the area of Hambarine, Rizvanovici,

         18  Carakovo.

         19       Q.   Is that close to Stari Grad, the old town?

         20       A.   No, it's not close -- yes, it is close.

         21  Yes.  It depends on your viewpoint.

         22       Q.   Do you know that in that conflict there were

         23  casualties?

         24       A.   At the time I did not know.  Later when I

         25  left the camp, I learnt who had been killed on either

Page 1891

          1  side.  But at the time of the fighting, I didn't know,

          2  nor did it interest me at the time.

          3       Q.   I assume there were also wounded.

          4       A.   Probably.

          5       Q.   Did you learn from those stories, or can you

          6  tell us what it is you learnt, at least in broad lines,

          7  as to the number of dead, or a rough estimate for both

          8  sides?

          9       A.   I couldn't do that because that would just be

         10  guesswork.

         11       Q.   To go back to your 1994 statement, in that

         12  statement, did you say that Slavko Ecim, a Croat, was

         13  the head of the resistance movement?

         14       A.   I think I did.

         15       Q.   You have already explained what you mean by

         16  the resistance movement.  But can you tell us whether

         17  you know whether, behind that resistance movement,

         18  there were any authorities behind it?  And I'm thinking

         19  principally about the authorities from Sarajevo.

         20       A.   I don't think they were.  I think had they

         21  been the result would have been different.  But I

         22  really can't say.

         23       Q.   Most of your written statement is devoted to

         24  the Ecimovic we mentioned.  Did you know him well?

         25       A.   Yes, I did.

Page 1892

          1       Q.   You saw him in Omarska, did you not?

          2       A.   Yes, I did.

          3       Q.   Do you happen to know that part of his life

          4  he spent as a paid worker in the Foreign Legion, a

          5  mercenary in the Foreign Legion?

          6       A.   I don't know.

          7       Q.   Did Slavko Ecimovic, when there was a beating

          8  in Omarska, did he say, "I am an Ustasha"?

          9       A.   Yes, he did.

         10       Q.   I didn't hear your answer.

         11       A.   I said yes.  Yes, and I say that in my

         12  statement.

         13       Q.   So that is the leader of that resistance

         14  movement.

         15       A.   Probably it is, yes.

         16       Q.   Do you know who the Ustashas were in World

         17  War II?

         18       A.   I do.

         19       Q.   But at the time all the Croats for you were

         20  Ustashas.

         21       A.   No, I'm talking about what he said.

         22       Q.   Yes.  That is why I'm saying that.

         23       A.   In Omarska they said we and the Croats were

         24  Ustashas.

         25       Q.   In this attempt to liberate Prijedor, did 10

Page 1893

          1  to 15 per cent of former criminals take part in this,

          2  as you state in your 1994 statement?

          3       A.   I think a part of them were, yes.

          4       Q.   In that drive, did Mesic, nicknamed Hadzija,

          5  take part?

          6       A.   Yes, he did.

          7       Q.   In your written statement, did you say he was

          8  a renowned criminal?

          9       A.   Well, I didn't say he was a renowned

         10  criminal, but I said that he had problems with the

         11  law.

         12       Q.   Very well.  I think that we can take a look

         13  at that statement which has been tendered into

         14  evidence, so there's no need to dwell on it.

         15            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

         16  Mr. Stojanovic, you don't want to take up the time of

         17  the Chamber, but I would like to know what all these

         18  details are telling us.  I think that it is a very

         19  meandering way to arrive at Omarska, and perhaps a

         20  repetitive one, so if you could try to pay attention to

         21  that.  Thank you.

         22            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

         23  Your Honour.

         24       Q.   This Hadzija, in May 1992, did he disarm the

         25  checkpoint at Berek?

Page 1894

          1       A.   Yes, he did.

          2       Q.   What was the composition of the people at

          3  that checkpoint?

          4       A.   I think they were all Serbs.

          5       Q.   But in your written statement, did you not

          6  say that they were of a mixed composition?

          7       A.   No.  The population of Berek, the old Stari

          8  Grad and Raskovac, asked that it be a mixed composition

          9  because it was inhabited predominantly by Muslims.

         10       Q.   But did he take the weapons away?

         11       A.   I don't know.

         12       Q.   You know about the attack on Kozarac.  Do you

         13  know where the Kupovic [phoen] settlement is located?

         14       A.   Yes, I do.

         15       Q.   Do you know about the incident that took

         16  place in that settlement prior to this attack?

         17       A.   Only -- I didn't take part, I couldn't see it

         18  taking place, but I think that what happened was that

         19  fire was opened on a Serbian column going from Banja

         20  Luka.  I think that was how it was.

         21       Q.   As we're nearing Kozarac, from Omarska, when

         22  you were in Omarska, could you see for many days that

         23  it was looted and burnt?

         24       A.   Yes.

         25       Q.   Does that mean that during the attack of the

Page 1895

          1  24th of May, it was not completely destroyed?

          2       A.   I cannot claim that.  I cannot claim that.

          3  However, when I returned from Omarska to Trnopolje, we

          4  passed along the Banja Luka-Prijedor road.

          5       Q.   You came to Omarska, and if I'm correct,

          6  according to your statement, you said that when

          7  interrogated, when interviewed, you said you were a

          8  communist because the Serbs were communist too.  Is

          9  that correct?

         10       A.   I said that I was a communist but I did not

         11  say that the Serbs were communist too.  Of course they

         12  were; that is true.

         13       Q.   Well, your answer leads me to further

         14  questions.  Was Radovan Karadzic ever a communist?

         15       A.   Ask him.

         16       Q.   What about the SDS?  Did it have anything in

         17  common with the communist orientation?

         18       A.   They were all former communists, all of

         19  them.

         20       Q.   Are Chetniks akin to communists?

         21       A.   Well, it would appear to be so in this war.

         22       Q.   Can you tell us the name of a single Serb

         23  communist who was president of the former Yugoslavia,

         24  or prime minister?

         25       A.   I don't know, just like no Muslim was.  I

Page 1896

          1  think the last time was in 1992.  I don't know.

          2       Q.   You said that in Omarska you spent most of

          3  your time on the pista, near the "white house".

          4       A.   Yes, that's right.  That is correct.

          5       Q.   That means that you were able to see all the

          6  comings and goings very well?

          7       A.   Yes, that's correct.

          8       Q.   And you could hear voices.

          9       A.   That's right.

         10       Q.   Were you in the "white house"?

         11       A.   Only once.

         12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me,

         13  Mr. Stojanovic, you asked the witness whether he was on

         14  the pista and whether he could see who was entering in

         15  and going out.  You asked him that question.  Why

         16  repeat that?  Why are you repeating what the witness

         17  said?  You keep repeating.  If you have no questions,

         18  then move forward, please.

         19            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

         20  Yes, Your Honour.

         21       Q.   You knew Becir Medjunjanin.

         22       A.   Not well.  I knew his wife better.

         23       Q.   Did the guards in Omarska, before the event

         24  that you started talking about when you were

         25  interviewed, show him up as an example to other

Page 1897

          1  prisoners?  Did they make an example of him?

          2       A.   Yes, they did.

          3       Q.   In what sense?

          4       A.   Becir Medjunjanin was brought to the camp

          5  later on with his wife and his child, and I think he

          6  was captured in the Kozarac area.  And when he arrived

          7  in the camp, all three of them had to stand up against

          8  the wall and were beaten, and then the guards would

          9  turn round and say, "This is the man who led Kozarac,"

         10  and so on, things of that kind.

         11       Q.   Let me remind you.  I should like to take up

         12  the story where Mr. Keegan left off, if I'm not

         13  mistaken, saying that he would return later on to that

         14  spot, but in fact he didn't go back to it.  But if I'm

         15  not mistaken, I think you said that after a particular

         16  beating, that Becir Medjunjanin crawled to the door of

         17  your room in the "white house"; is that correct?

         18       A.   Correct, and that is a well-known fact.  I

         19  described the incident, the same day when Hankin was

         20  killed, and him too.

         21       Q.   We just want you to carry on with that

         22  description, because I don't think we have gone back to

         23  that event during the examination-in-chief.  Could you

         24  tell us what happened after that to Becir, when he

         25  crawled to your door?

Page 1898

          1       A.   He was beaten by Dusko Knezevic, nicknamed

          2  Duca.  However, we were interested in what was going on

          3  in our own room at that particular point, what Zeljko

          4  Timarac did against a young man called Hankin, what he

          5  was doing to him.  And when we returned from the "white

          6  house", when we had to run out onto the pista, I

          7  described Hankin's murder, how it came about.  Soon

          8  after that, Becir Medjunjanin was taken out.

          9       Q.   In the room, in the "white house" previously

         10  to that, did you sit next to Becir when Timarac and

         11  Duca came in and began beating him as you state in your

         12  witness statement?

         13       A.   No, Becir Medjunjanin was in the first room

         14  of the "white house".  When we came to the "white

         15  house", then afterwards Becir Medjunjanin was taken out

         16  by Dusko Knezevic.  I gave a very clear statement to

         17  that fact.

         18       Q.   In this statement did you say that in Omarska

         19  they would force you to watch other people being

         20  mistreated?

         21       A.   No, they wouldn't permit us to look, and I

         22  said that we secretly looked.

         23       Q.   Can you tell us, frankly, whether you know

         24  who killed Becir Medjunjanin?

         25       A.   Yes, I do know.  Dusko Knezevic, nicknamed

Page 1899

          1  Duca.

          2       Q.   What did he beat him with?  Can you tell us

          3  in greater detail?

          4       A.   With a baton, with his legs, with his arms.

          5       Q.   After this, did Becir fall down?

          6       A.   Yes, he did.

          7       Q.   Did he stay immobile for some time?

          8       A.   He remained immobile for the rest of his

          9  life.

         10       Q.   Did you see them take him out?

         11       A.   Yes, I did.

         12       Q.   Did you see where they placed him?

         13       A.   In front of the "white house", on the grass

         14  there, field.

         15       Q.   Could you notice any signs of life in him?

         16       A.   I could note that there were no -- absolutely

         17  no signs of life.

         18       Q.   Was that at the same time when Hankin was a

         19  victim?

         20       A.   Yes.

         21       Q.   Who killed Hankin?

         22       A.   Zeljko Timarac.

         23       Q.   I should now like to move to the events of

         24  (redacted) and Emir Beganovic.  Can you remember,

         25  in your statement of 1994, what you said?  Who beat

Page 1900

          1  them?

          2       A.   Yes, I can remember.  I said that they were

          3  beaten by Zigic.

          4            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like

          5  to ask for the assistance of the technicians, and it is

          6  page 12 of the Serbian version and page 15 of the

          7  English version.

          8       Q.   Look at the beginning of the page.

          9       A.   You said page 12, did you?

         10       Q.   Yes, the first paragraph of page 12, in the

         11  Serbian version.  "One afternoon, after I had been

         12  taken from the pista to the canteen ..." would you like

         13  to read it out?

         14       A.   Let me explain this to you.  You probably

         15  want to know why I didn't mention Zigic's name.

         16       Q.   Yes.  Precisely so.

         17       A.   I remember that event very well, and that

         18  event was viewed by 600 people who were with me, in

         19  addition to myself.  I know that I named Zigic, but why

         20  his name is not mentioned there, I don't want to enter

         21  into that.  However, Zigic, Timarac, Dusko Knezevic is

         22  the group which, once or twice a week, would come to

         23  the Omarska camp and stay in the Omarska camp together.

         24       Q.   How many times did you see Zigic in the

         25  Omarska camp?

Page 1901

          1       A.   At least ten times, and two or three times in

          2  Trnopolje.

          3       Q.   We're just talking about Omarska for the time

          4  being.  Thank you.

          5            Did you state that there were no other guards

          6  with them?  That's what you say.  You mentioned Timarac

          7  and Duca, and you expressly state that there were no

          8  other guards with him, and we're talking about -- there

          9  were no other guards presently with them?

         10       A.   Let me tell you one thing, all the guards in

         11  the camp, in the Omarska camp, it was an attraction for

         12  them all when Zigic, Timarac, and Duca turned up,

         13  because they knew that at that time when they turned

         14  up, they would see something that they couldn't even

         15  see on film.  And when it happened that Zigic beat Rezak

         16  or Began or anybody else, all the other guards from

         17  the surrounding points would come up to watch, to

         18  experience those incidents.

         19       Q.   Where were you watching all this from?

         20       A.   From the canteen, the menza.

         21       Q.   Can you show us on the model, please, where

         22  you were standing and where they were, that is to say,

         23  where Zigic was standing?

         24       A.   Zigic, Duca came from this direction.

         25       Q.   Which means they had already gone out, does

Page 1902

          1  it, from the "white house"?

          2       A.   They were not in the "white house."  They

          3  were somewhere behind here [indicates].  Where they

          4  actually were, I don't know.  I was standing here

          5  [indicates].  Rezak was here.  There was the dirty pool

          6  of water, and he washed himself with the dirty water in

          7  this area [indicates].

          8       Q.   So that was after that particular incident,

          9  was it?

         10       A.   Well, it was throughout -- it was all an

         11  incident for me.  What do you mean "after"?

         12            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the witness,

         13  please.

         14            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

         15       Q.   Let me remind you, in all your statements so

         16  far, you make no mention of the fact that Zigic took

         17  part in this incident.  Can you tell us more

         18  specifically, in 1992, this incident took place.  You

         19  gave your statements after two years.  Now eight years

         20  later, you mention for the first time, as a new fact,

         21  as a novel fact compared to all your previous

         22  statements, that Zigic took part in that incident, in

         23  that occurrence.

         24       A.   What occurrence have you got in mind?

         25       Q.   The beating of (redacted) and Asaf

Page 1903

          1  Kapetanovic, and I think here is another – (redacted)

          2  (redacted)

          3       A.   I said that I named Zigic.  Why it wasn't

          4  entered into the records, I don't know.

          5       Q.   Did you go through and look through all your

          6  statements?

          7       A.   Well, yes, I did, but you know, after eight

          8  hours of interrogation, after interviewing, it was very

          9  difficult.

         10       Q.   Did Timarac take part in the incident as

         11  well?

         12       A.   Yes, he did.

         13       Q.   Did he beat up these same people?

         14       A.   I don't know that.

         15       Q.   You mentioned in your statement that Timarac

         16  beat these people.  Were you conscious of the fact that

         17  he would be responsible, perhaps, towards this

         18  Tribunal?

         19       A.   Yes, Timarac was present with Zigic on the

         20  pista when they came back all beaten up, and that is

         21  why I said that.  You don't have to caution me at all.

         22  I know full well what statements I made.

         23       Q.   Did anybody caution you that your first

         24  statement was incorrect?

         25       A.   May I go back to my seat, please?

Page 1904

          1       Q.   Thank you, Your Honour.

          2       A.   Would you repeat your question, please?

          3       Q.   Did anybody caution you that your previous

          4  statements with respect to this incident were

          5  incorrect?

          6       A.   No, nobody did.

          7       Q.   Did you inform the Tribunal of your change of

          8  opinion, as the first is different from this one?  When

          9  did you change your attitude to this incident?

         10       A.   I don't know what it says there.  I've just

         11  got a copy here.  I know what I said on the occasion,

         12  and the truth is what I said when I was interviewed on

         13  the first day here, in this courtroom, when I was

         14  questioned in this courtroom on the first day.

         15            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I apologise

         16  for interrupting, Mr. Stojanovic.  But if you see any

         17  contradiction between the different statements of the

         18  witness and testimonies, you can ask a direct question

         19  to clarify the matter.  Otherwise, you enter into

         20  argument with the witness.  So ask him a direct

         21  question.  "You said that then, this now.  What do you

         22  say now at this point?"  As we are all here now and it

         23  is an oral principle of oral testimony, so without

         24  going into a process of argumentation, ask direct

         25  questions.  Otherwise, we'll never leave this

Page 1905

          1  courtroom, Mr. Stojanovic, please.

          2            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

          3  Your Honours.  I am doing my best to clear up the

          4  contradictions and have them explained in the simplest

          5  manner.

          6       Q.   The next contradiction is the following.  In

          7  all statements so far --

          8            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, and

          9  let's see the results, because you're going to make the

         10  effort and we'll see the results, Mr. Stojanovic.

         11            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

         12       Q.   Thank you, Your Honour.

         13            In all statements given so far, Mr. Oklopcic,

         14  you make no mention of this particular incident with

         15  Emir Beganovic, but you did mention it for the first

         16  time in front of this Tribunal during your present

         17  testimony and examination.

         18       A.   Well, I didn't have time to say many things

         19  on the first day, that's how it was.  So just as I did

         20  not mention Emir Beganovic up until that time, I didn't

         21  do many other things when I was questioned that day.

         22  So you must understand that it's not simple to come

         23  here, either for me or for you or for anybody else.

         24  And to make matters clearer, let me say that I know

         25  Rezak and Began very well, we were neighbours.  So

Page 1906

          1  there is no doubt whatsoever that -- I'm not saying

          2  something that is contradictory.

          3       Q.   Well, now you have muddled me even further.

          4  I was a bit mixed up by your initial statements.  Had

          5  you written down what you're saying now, there would be

          6  no misunderstanding.

          7            Very well.  Having witnessed the incident,

          8  can you tell us what Zigic's appearance was like at the

          9  time?  And when I say this, I mean the uniform he was

         10  wearing, or perhaps some characteristic personal

         11  traits, and so on.

         12       A.   As far as I remember, Zigic had a red cap.

         13  We said -- he called it a French cap in the former

         14  Yugoslavia, you know what it looks like, and he had an

         15  olive-green military uniform on him.

         16       Q.   Did he have any bandages on any part of his

         17  body?

         18       A.   Well, it's difficult for me to remember, for

         19  me to be able to answer your question.

         20       Q.   That means you can't remember.  Very well.

         21  How did you recognise him?  Did you know him from

         22  before?

         23       A.   Yes, I did, and I've already answered that

         24  question.  I said that I knew Zigic from before, but we

         25  were not personal friends or anything like that.

Page 1907

          1       Q.   I don't think we said specifically what time

          2  that was.  You said in the course of the day that you

          3  were standing in a restaurant five, six, or eight

          4  hours, but what month was that, or part of a month?

          5       A.   I think it was the end of June, beginning of

          6  July.  It's difficult for me to tell you exactly now

          7  after eight years have gone by.  But it was in the late

          8  afternoon, which means between 6.00 and 8.00.  How come

          9  I know this?  I know this because at that time we would

         10  be made to go into the central building, where the

         11  canteen was situated.

         12       Q.   If I'm right, you said before this Tribunal

         13  that, during this incident, Tadic was present as well,

         14  I mean Dusko Tadic.

         15       A.   I don't know I said that.

         16       Q.   Did I hear that correctly?  I do believe you

         17  said that.

         18       A.   I don't think you heard correctly.

         19       Q.   Now, these people, and I'm thinking of

         20  Mr. Hukanovic, Kapetanovic, and others, did anybody

         21  ride on their backs during this incident?

         22       A.   What I remember most vividly is what I

         23  describe.  When Rezak was ordered, Hukanovic, to kneel

         24  down on the pista and to drink a puddle of dirty water

         25  which was on the pista at that time and to wash himself

Page 1908

          1  with that dirty water.

          2       Q.   But you didn't notice anything else which

          3  would indicate any similar type of behaviour, inhumane

          4  anyway.

          5       A.   What I did notice is that they were covered

          6  in blood, that they were dirty, that they had been

          7  beaten, and that they were exhausted.

          8       Q.   You said that you knew Zigic because he

          9  worked in Croatia for a time and then came back to work

         10  as a taxi driver.

         11       A.   I didn't know him when he worked in Croatia,

         12  but I knew him when he worked as a taxi driver.

         13       Q.   Do you know when this was?

         14       A.   It was prior to the war, just before the

         15  war.  And when we were in Trnopolje, when Zigic lined

         16  us up, he told us that publicly.

         17       Q.   Yes.  We'll get to Trnopolje in due course.

         18  If I'm not mistaken, you categorically said that you

         19  arrived in Trnopolje on the 5th of August and not the

         20  3rd of August, as exists in some documents and we

         21  accept that.  But you say that in the afternoon in

         22  Trnopolje, the representatives of the International Red

         23  Cross arrived and journalists from well-known newspaper

         24  houses in the world.  Can you tell us how long they

         25  stayed?  Did they stay a long time?

Page 1909

          1       A.   We arrived from Omarska at about 11.00 or

          2  12.00, and at that time none of the International Red

          3  Cross representatives were there.

          4       Q.   You said it was in the afternoon?

          5       A.   Yes, I did.

          6       Q.   How long were they there?

          7       A.   They were there for two or three hours in the

          8  afternoon.

          9       Q.   I see.  Two or three hours.  Very well.

         10       A.   That is my opinion, as far as I'm able to

         11  recollect.

         12       Q.   At the end of your statement, written

         13  statement, you say you were exchanged.  Can you explain

         14  what this meant?  Exchanged for whom, why you were

         15  exchanged?

         16       A.   Yes, I can do that.  You know that I had to

         17  fill in a form as soon as possible to leave, and after

         18  I left Trnopolje I had to leave Prijedor at the

         19  earliest opportunity.  As I and my family were not able

         20  to leave in any other way --

         21       Q.   I apologise.  I'm talking about the very act

         22  of exchange.  Who were you exchanged for?

         23       A.   Well, you're not letting me explain.

         24       Q.   Well, I don't know.  Perhaps it is too

         25  involved.

Page 1910

          1       A.   But this is an essential, vital question.

          2       Q.   Very well.

          3       A.   We went to Banja Luka, and at that time there

          4  was a woman called Perka [phoen], or something like

          5  that, in Banja Luka, and she transferred civilians

          6  towards Vlasic from Banja Luka.  And on five buses, I

          7  and my family were in one of those buses, and we came

          8  to the plateau of Mount Vlasic.  When we got there,

          9  there was a bus which had come from the direction of

         10  Travnik with only 10 or 15 people in that other bus.

         11  And this was supposed to be an exchange, five buses of

         12  us from the Serbian part and one bus coming from

         13  Travnik, or wherever.  And as I say, in that other bus,

         14  there were only 10 or 15 people, not more than that,

         15  whereas our buses, our five buses were jam packed with

         16  people.

         17       Q.   These 10 to 15 people, what were they,

         18  civilians?

         19       A.   Yes, they were civilians.

         20       Q.   Very well.  You have drawn up a list of the

         21  most responsible people, and my learned colleague,

         22  Mr. Jovan Simic, presented that list before me.  It is

         23  a list compiled in handwriting.  You gave that list to

         24  the Prosecution.  Do you mention Zoran Zigic on that

         25  list?

Page 1911

          1       A.   I don't know.  If it's there, then right; if

          2  not, then there's no problem.

          3       Q.   Now, on that list, did you mention expressly

          4  who killed Becir Medjunjanin?  Do you make mention of

          5  that?  But you stand by what you said there?

          6       A.   Yes, absolutely.  It just says here that

          7  Becir Medjunjanin was killed in the month of July.

          8       Q.   I'm talking about the list.  Look at page 2

          9  of the list.

         10       A.   Here it is, yes Becir Medjunjanin killed in

         11  July.

         12       Q.   What does it say under that?

         13       A.   Killed by a man named Duca.

         14       Q.   So you stand by that, do you?

         15       A.   Yes.

         16       Q.   Let us go back to another question, that is

         17  to say, one of your answers.  You said you saw Zigic

         18  some ten times in Omarska.  Do you remember any

         19  incident with respect to those ten times, except the

         20  one that we have just been talking about?

         21       A.   Yes, I do recall.  (redacted)

         22  (redacted)

         23  (redacted)

         24       Q.   Was he there when Becir Medjunjanin was

         25  killed?

Page 1912

          1       A.   You mean Zigic?  No, I think he was not.  I

          2  didn't see him close by.

          3       Q.   And when Hankin was killed?

          4       A.   Also not.  I didn't see him.

          5       Q.   Thank you very much.

          6            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no

          7  further questions.  Thank you.

          8            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,

          9  Mr. Stojanovic.  Thank you very much.

         10            Mr. Keegan, do you have any additional

         11  questions?

         12            MR. KEEGAN:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

         13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Proceed,

         14  then, please.

         15            MR. KEEGAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

         16                 Re-examined by Mr. Keegan:

         17       Q.   Mr. Oklopcic, in the cross-examination, in

         18  one of your answers you indicated that none of the

         19  regular policemen in the Omarska camp stood guard.

         20  What did the regular policemen do in the camp?

         21       A.   They brought in daily from Prijedor a couple

         22  of prisoners, five, six, four, it depended, and handed

         23  them over to these people who were in the Omarska

         24  concentration camp.

         25       Q.   Now, speaking of the individuals who worked

Page 1913

          1  at the camp themselves who were regular policemen, you

          2  named among them Kvocka and Radic.

          3       A.   I did.

          4       Q.   Were there others who were regular policemen

          5  before working in the camp that you know of?

          6       A.   I would see regular policemen who would come

          7  into the camp and hand over these prisoners.  Whether

          8  there were more of them, I don't know the answer to

          9  that question.

         10       Q.   In relation to the questions with respect to

         11  Stupar, you mentioned that he spoke to a man named

         12  Rosic in the camp.

         13       A.   Yes.

         14       Q.   Do you know what position or duty Rosic had

         15  in the camp?

         16       A.   Stupar told me that this Rosic had one of the

         17  main roles in Omarska, in the so-called Crisis Staff or

         18  something, but if he wanted to, he could help me.  And

         19  he insisted and really tried to help me get out of the

         20  camp.

         21       Q.   This Rosic, did he work in the camp?  Did he

         22  have a position in the camp itself that you know of?

         23       A.   Perhaps I should say that there are two guys

         24  with the same surname.  This Rosic, one was a guard,

         25  and this other one that Stupar spoke to, he came only

Page 1914

          1  two or three times to Omarska and he spoke to the

          2  investigators up there.

          3       Q.   And it's this second Rosic that Mr. Stupar

          4  talked to.

          5       A.   Yes.

          6       Q.   With respect to Slobodan Kuruzovic, were you

          7  aware if he was a member of the Crisis Staff in

          8  Prijedor?

          9       A.   He was.

         10       Q.   Were you aware of whether he had a position

         11  of authority or command in the Prijedor Territorial

         12  Defence after the takeover?

         13       A.   Yes.

         14       Q.   With respect to the beating of Riza Hadzalic,

         15  is it possible that at the time he was outside on the

         16  pista, prior to the beating, that he himself had had

         17  something to eat with him or was eating something?

         18       A.   He did not have anything on him, nor was he

         19  eating.

         20       Q.   With respect to Mr. Timarac, whom you

         21  mentioned came to the camp, and you said in response,

         22  in cross-examination, that he came to the camp to abuse

         23  prisoners.  Is that correct?

         24       A.   Correct.

         25       Q.   At any time did you see any of the camp

Page 1915

          1  personnel or authorities, command personnel in the

          2  camp, try to intervene with Mr. Timarac or to stop him

          3  in any way from abusing prisoners?

          4       A.   Never.

          5       Q.   With respect to the beating of Becir

          6  Medjunjanin, were you able to see who -- let me ask

          7  this:  Is it possible that there were other persons

          8  with Duca and Timarac in the "white house" that you did

          9  not see because they were in the other rooms?

         10       A.   Possible.

         11       Q.   With respect to the occasions on which you

         12  saw Zoran Zigic and Duca Knezevic in the Omarska camp,

         13  did you ever see any of the camp personnel or any of

         14  the command staff in the camp try and intervene or to

         15  stop them in any way from maltreating or assaulting

         16  prisoners?

         17       A.   I saw them, but no one tried to prevent it.

         18       Q.   Now, with respect to your 1994 statement,

         19  ICTY statement, that's been admitted into evidence, if

         20  we could clarify the procedures involved there.  You

         21  have said that over the period of 22 through 26

         22  September, that the investigators questioned you for

         23  approximately eight hours a day.

         24       A.   I did.

         25       Q.   And you discussed many things.

Page 1916

          1       A.   We did.

          2       Q.   You signed this statement on the 10th of

          3  December, 1994; is that correct?

          4       A.   Yes.

          5       Q.   And the procedure, as you have acknowledged

          6  at the end of that statement, indicates that this

          7  statement was read back to you by an interpreter; is

          8  that correct?

          9            MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I have an

         10  objection, Your Honour.

         11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me.

         12  Yes, Mr. Nikolic.  What is the objection?

         13            MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

         14  the Defence was patient and did not react immediately,

         15  but we have a whole series of questions which were not

         16  unclear from the cross-examination.  The witness has

         17  answered all these questions that Mr. Keegan is

         18  asking.  He's just confirming what he has already

         19  answered.

         20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

         21  Mr. Keegan.

         22            MR. KEEGAN:  Yes, Your Honour.  I'm

         23  addressing, in point of fact, the one part of the

         24  questions about the statement that were not asked,

         25  which is how did the witness certify the statement.

Page 1917

          1  They have tried to point to what they see as errors in

          2  the statement as to what the witness testified or

          3  things he said, but for some reason do not appear.  I'm

          4  simply trying to bring the point that the interview was

          5  actually conducted over a week in September, and then

          6  several months later in December, the statement was

          7  read back to the witness and he signed it.  I'm trying

          8  to clarify that that was, in fact, what occurred, and

          9  that it wasn't a situation where it was read back

         10  immediately to the witness.

         11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

         12  Mr. Nikolic, you yourself put all these questions.  I

         13  think Mr. Keegan is right to clarify these points.  So

         14  Mr. Keegan, you may continue.

         15            MR. KEEGAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

         16       Q.   Mr. Oklopcic, if I can recapture the last

         17  question.  As indicated by the certification on your

         18  statement, was the statement, in fact, read back to you

         19  in a language you understood on the 12th of December,

         20  1994?

         21       A.   I think it was.

         22       Q.   I'm sorry.  I had that backwards.  The 10th

         23  of December, not the 12th.  Excuse.

         24       A.   December.  Yes.  Yes, the 10th, I think it

         25  was.

Page 1918

          1            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The witness

          2  has already answered this question, Mr. Keegan.  He has

          3  confirmed that he signed it on the 10th of December,

          4  1994.  Go on, please.

          5            MR. KEEGAN:  Yes, Your Honour.  I'm just

          6  trying to clarify this situation.  The importance of

          7  the signature is when the statement was actually read

          8  back to him in a language that he understood.

          9       Q.   That it was read back to you on the 10th of

         10  December.

         11       A.   It was.

         12       Q.   Thank you.

         13            MR. KEEGAN:  No further questions, Your

         14  Honour.  Thank you.

         15            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

         16  very much, Mr. Keegan.  We should like to truly finish

         17  the testimony of Mr. Oklopcic, and that is why I'm

         18  asking whether we can work a little longer, for ten

         19  minutes, so that the Judges can put their questions.  I

         20  see a nod from the booths.

         21            So Judge Riad.

         22            JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you,

         23  Mr. President.

         24                 Questioned by the Court:

         25            JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Good afternoon,

Page 1919

          1  Mr. Oklopcic.

          2       A.   Good afternoon.

          3            JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] I should like to

          4  have some clarifications from you to throw light on

          5  your testimony.

          6            First of all, some small questions regarding

          7  details.  You said, I'll begin from the beginning, that

          8  when you left towards the hotel -- what was the name of

          9  the hotel?

         10       A.   Hotel Balkan in Prijedor.

         11            JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Yes, Hotel

         12  Balkan.  You saw bodies in the street, and your son

         13  drew your attention to them.  Were they bodies of

         14  military men or civilians?

         15       A.   Civilians.

         16            JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Civilians.  And

         17  then you heard the soldiers speaking the Ekavica

         18  dialect, and you said it was spoken in various places.

         19  How were they dressed?  Were they military men?

         20  Because military men have different uniforms depending

         21  on the country they come from.

         22       A.   They did.

         23            JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] How were you

         24  able to judge their clothing?  Which did they belong

         25  to?

Page 1920

          1       A.   Blue, green, camouflage, SMB olive-grey

          2  uniforms, and so on.

          3            JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Perhaps you knew

          4  the different uniforms.  Which army was this, did they

          5  belong to?

          6       A.   The Yugoslav army.

          7            JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] I see.  The

          8  Yugoslav army.  So if I understood you well, Mr. Kvocka

          9  was the deputy to the commander Meakic, and they

         10  changed every 24 hours.  Was there a change in

         11  atmosphere in the camp or in the treatment of prisoners

         12  depending on who was on duty, Meakic or Kvocka?  When

         13  did you feel better as human beings?

         14       A.   When Mr. Kvocka was on duty.

         15            JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] And then if I

         16  understood you well.  Mr. Prcac replaced Mr. Kvocka

         17  later on.  Did the situation improve under Mr. Prcac,

         18  or did it worsen?

         19       A.   You see, for me personally, the last 15 days

         20  or so of my stay in the camp, the Omarska concentration

         21  camp, was much better than at the beginning of my stay.

         22            JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Those last 15

         23  days were under whose command?

         24       A.   Under the command of Zeljko Meakic and

         25  Prcac.  But I must clarify why for you to have a proper

Page 1921

          1  understanding.  My group, a group of 70 men, was

          2  separated and their names read out on the 28th of July,

          3  and we were separated from all the other prisoners and

          4  put on the pista.  At that time, while we were waiting,

          5  until the 5th of August, Mr. Ckalja approached me, the

          6  leader of one of the groups, and said, "Azedin, today

          7  or tomorrow an international organisation is due to

          8  come which will carry out an inspection here."  They

          9  called me Uco, which is short for teacher, and they

         10  said, "Uco, do you understand what you have to do when

         11  talking to your friends?"  I said, "I do."  "And what

         12  will you say," Kvocka asked.  I said that I was okay,

         13  that nobody is beating me, that we have enough food,

         14  and that nobody is mistreating us.  And he answered, "I

         15  see that you are a clever guy and you will convey this

         16  to your colleagues."  I went back and conveyed the

         17  message to my colleagues, and they all understood what

         18  needed to be said, except for one man who said, "No, I

         19  will not do that.  I will tell the truth."  I said,

         20  "Well, do that if you're ready to disappear, do as you

         21  will."

         22            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What is

         23  your objection now?

         24            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Oklopcic

         25  was talking about Mr. Ckalja, and he said Mr. Kvocka.

Page 1922

          1            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  That's a

          2  slip of the tongue.  I meant Ckalja, Ckalja.  I'm

          3  sorry.  I apologise.  It wasn't Mr. Kvocka, it was

          4  Ckalja.

          5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

          6  Thank you, Mr. Simic.  So the correction will be made.

          7  Thank you.

          8            JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Mr. Oklopcic,

          9  try and give me coherent answers to my questions.  You

         10  said that the treatment changed and that it was better

         11  under Kvocka's command than Meakic's, and you also said

         12  that that depended on each of the shifts.  For

         13  instance, you mentioned that Krkan's team was the

         14  cruelest, and it was under his command that Riza

         15  Hukanovic was killed, and some others.  Were these

         16  teams independent from the command, or was there a

         17  certain hierarchy of discipline?  Did each team do what

         18  they wanted under their team leader, or did they have

         19  to answer to somebody above?

         20       A.   I cannot answer this question with precision;

         21  however, my answer will be as follows:  The guard

         22  shifts were never left to their own resources.  There

         23  was always present the person who was in charge of that

         24  guard -- shift of guards.  Whether they coordinated or

         25  not, I don't know.

Page 1923

          1            JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Very well.  In

          2  other words, if, for instance, the leader was Meakic,

          3  of whom you said he was the worst, could the shift

          4  leader be tolerant or less severe in his treatment, or

          5  did he have to act in accordance with their chief, and

          6  vice versa?  When Kvocka was on duty, did the shift

          7  leaders have a certain degree of freedom of action to

          8  do what they could?  If you can answer it, that's

          9  fine.  If not, just tell us you cannot.

         10       A.   I think the answer is both yes and no.  I was

         11  never present at an incident involving Mr. Kvocka,

         12  beating or something else.  I was never present when

         13  Mr. Radic was involved in beating.  I was never present

         14  when Krle or Prcac were involved.  But these things did

         15  happen during their shift.  Who gave the orders, I

         16  really don't know and I can't answer that question.

         17            JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] But you could

         18  feel whether there was any discipline or not in the

         19  camp, or was it sort of an anarchy when each soldier

         20  could amuse himself as he wanted?

         21       A.   There was discipline.

         22            JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] There was

         23  discipline.  And within that framework, Krkan's team

         24  was the cruelest, as you said.

         25       A.   Yes.

Page 1924

          1            JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Concerning

          2  Mr. Kvocka, you indicated that he protected his

          3  brother-in-law Riza --

          4       A.   Sorry?

          5            JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] His

          6  brother-in-law Riza, and he separated him from the

          7  others in public.  Could any soldier protect somebody

          8  in a public manner like that, or only if he had a

          9  certain degree of authority?  I don't know that, but

         10  Mr. Kvocka did that, and not only him, but two other

         11  brothers-in-law, my neighbours and friends.  But at

         12  that time it was very difficult to release anyone from

         13  the prison; it was almost impossible.

         14            JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] And he released

         15  them?

         16       A.   No.  He took them away somewhere.  They did

         17  not enter the room with me.

         18            JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Did you see

         19  anyone else protecting somebody?

         20       A.   No.

         21            JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] You often said

         22  that each shift had a certain attitude.  How could you

         23  distinguish between the teams or shifts?

         24       A.   Hardly at all.  But it is a fact that the

         25  worst killings, which I saw and experienced, occurred

Page 1925

          1  when Krkan's shift was on duty.  And another thing, if

          2  I may say in quotation marks, "I felt best when the

          3  shift from Maricka was on duty as I knew some of the

          4  parents of my former students and my former students."

          5  But this applies only to me personally.

          6            JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Yes.  But when

          7  you say "Krkan's shift," how did you know it was

          8  Krkan's shift?

          9       A.   Because I knew almost all the guards and

         10  which shift they were in.  Every guard leader would

         11  take over duty at the same time as the guards and hand

         12  over duty 12 hours later to the next shift.

         13            JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Yes, but the

         14  shift leader was not present during the tortures and

         15  the beatings.

         16       A.   No.

         17            JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Did you consider

         18  complaining to the shift leader?

         19       A.   We had no chance to do that.

         20            JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] My last

         21  question.  The majority of prisoners, were they

         22  military men, soldiers, Muslim soldiers, or civilians,

         23  according to your knowledge?

         24       A.   Civilians.

         25            JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you very

Page 1926

          1  much, Mr. Oklopcic.

          2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too,

          3  Your Honour.

          4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

          5  Judge Fouad Riad.

          6            Judge Wald.

          7            JUDGE WALD:  Mr. Oklopcic, you referred in

          8  your testimony many times to shifts, whether it's

          9  Krkan's shifts or Krle's shifts.  Now, was it the

         10  common practice for all the people detained in the camp

         11  to refer to a shift by the name of the shift leader?

         12  In other words, if somebody said "Krkan's shift," did

         13  that mean Krkan was the shift leader?

         14       A.   Yes.

         15            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  The next question is:

         16  You say on your paper that you drew up that the shifts

         17  changed every 12 hours, and I think you said that in

         18  your testimony as well.

         19            Since there were three shifts, does that mean

         20  that more than one shift was on duty at any one time,

         21  or were they over a period of a couple of days, so that

         22  you didn't have every shift on duty every 24-hour

         23  period?  Was there more than one shift on duty at a

         24  single time?

         25       A.   No, but let me explain.

Page 1927

          1            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.

          2       A.   I said that the shifts lasted from 7.00 a.m.

          3  to 7.00 p.m. and from 7.00 p.m. to 7.00 a.m., so in the

          4  course of one day, or 24 hours, two shifts would be on

          5  duty.  The third shift would be resting for a day and

          6  then come to work the next day.

          7            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  I understand.  Thank

          8  you.

          9            The final question on that was:  Did Krkan's

         10  shift typically come on in the daytime or the

         11  night-time, or did it sometimes day and sometimes

         12  night, Krkan's shift?

         13       A.   What I wrote down, all the killings that I

         14  attended occurred in broad daylight.  What happened in

         15  the evenings, perhaps somebody else will tell you about

         16  that who knows more about it.

         17            JUDGE WALD:  My question, though, was just:

         18  When Krkan's shift was on duty, was it usually the

         19  daytime?  Is that what you're telling me?  Just when

         20  Krkan's shift was on duty, was it usually in the day or

         21  at night?

         22       A.   You see, if Krkan's shift would start in the

         23  morning, or any other shift started in the morning, it

         24  would be from 7.00 until 7.00, and then the next day,

         25  that same shift would be coming from 7.00 in the

Page 1928

          1  evening until 7.00 in the morning.  So there was a

          2  system of rotation.

          3            JUDGE WALD:  Right.  That's what I wanted to

          4  know.

          5            Now, you also testified that on one occasion

          6  in July, there was an official delegation from

          7  Republika Srpska that came to visit the camp, and when

          8  asked who was present from the camp leadership, you

          9  said -- at least it came through on the transcript --

         10  "the commanders and deputy commanders."  Now, did you

         11  mean by that more than one commander and more than one

         12  deputy commander, or was that a mistake, perhaps, in

         13  the translation?  If so, who actually was there from

         14  the camp leadership in July when they came from

         15  Republika Srpska?

         16       A.   Almost everyone who meant anything in the

         17  camp; the wardens and the shift leaders were present.

         18  I also said "others."  From Prijedor, there was Major

         19  Slobodan Kuruzovic; from Prijedor also, Simo Miskovic.

         20  So I was implying all of them.

         21            JUDGE WALD:  Right.  But I'm most interested

         22  in the camp leadership that you remember being there on

         23  that occasion.  Was Meakic there?

         24       A.   He was.

         25            JUDGE WALD:  Who else was there from the camp

Page 1929

          1  leadership, besides the shift commanders and Meakic?

          2       A.   Of the camp leadership, Meakic and Kvocka

          3  were the leaders, the chief and the deputy, with the

          4  exception of the shift leaders.

          5            JUDGE WALD:  And that was in July; right?

          6       A.   Yes.

          7            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  Now, you also testified

          8  that Brk appeared to be very close, the right-hand man

          9  of Meakic.  How were you able to distinguish between a

         10  person like Kvocka or Prcac and Brk?  What was

         11  different about Brk, who you say was so close to

         12  Meakic, that didn't make you think he was a deputy

         13  commander but did make you think that Kvocka and Prcac

         14  were deputy commanders?

         15       A.   In the first place, Brk, as they called him,

         16  would beat the prisoners, and he was always close to

         17  Zeljko Meakic.  I said a moment ago that I never saw

         18  Kvocka or Prcac beat anyone, as far as I am aware.  But

         19  Brk, I think his surname is Tadic, known as Brk, he

         20  would enter and beat the prisoners.  On one occasion,

         21  when Becir Medjunjanin and his wife and child were

         22  brought in, both he and Zeljko Meakic beat them.  So he

         23  always moved around with Zeljko Meakic.

         24            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  So he was more, according

         25  to your impressions, like a staff person, an aid to

Page 1930

          1  Meakic, than a person with his own command down the

          2  line, such as a deputy commander would have?

          3       A.   Yes.

          4            JUDGE WALD:  All right.  Last question.  You

          5  mentioned that Medjunjanin's wife and child were beaten

          6  on their arrival at Omarska.  How old was the child,

          7  approximately?  And that is your testimony, that the

          8  child was actually beaten?

          9       A.   A young man.  A young man, 18 or 20.

         10            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  How old was Hankin?  You

         11  referred to him as a young man, but is he about the

         12  same age, younger?

         13       A.   He was older.  I was 31 or 32 at the time,

         14  and he was two or three years my senior.

         15            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  Thank you very much.

         16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

         17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

         18  Judge Wald.

         19            I am perhaps at an advantage to be the last

         20  to put questions as most of the questions have already

         21  been asked.  Nevertheless, I have two or three minor

         22  questions.

         23            You answered my colleague Judge Fouad Riad

         24  that you managed to identify the guards belonging to

         25  the Krkan shift because you knew them.  How did you

Page 1931

          1  identify the guards in the other shifts?

          2       A.   First of all, I didn't know them in person

          3  before I arrived at the Omarska concentration camp.

          4  And how I came to know them was because they called

          5  each other by name in public, Zoka, Paspalj, Kricka,

          6  Savic, and so on.  A second shift, another shift, the

          7  shifts from Maricka, as I explained earlier on, was the

          8  shift in which there were six to eight of my students

          9  and two or three parents of former students.  And the

         10  third shift, a shift from Omarska, there were a couple

         11  of football players that I played against when we had

         12  matches between Prijedor and Omarska.  So it wasn't

         13  difficult for me to identify them at all.

         14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] My second

         15  question is the following:  At a given point in time,

         16  you mentioned Mujo's building or Mujo's room, and they

         17  said that there were two Mujos.  Why did they choose

         18  the name Mujo?

         19       A.   Because in that shift -- no, I mean in that

         20  room that was referred to as Mujo's room, there were

         21  all prisoners who came from the centre of town, Stari

         22  Grad, Raskovac, Skela, those districts in town.  And

         23  Mujo was the so-called representative of that room,

         24  that large room, and he took those people out to

         25  lunch.  He would line them up, 30 by 30, and so on.

Page 1932

          1            Later on he was joined by Burho.  Now, why it

          2  wasn't called Burho's room, I don't know.  It doesn't

          3  matter.  It was called Mujo's room.  And one night, on

          4  the 28th of July, when the two of them disappeared, I

          5  took over this shift -- not shift, I mean this group of

          6  prisoners, taking them to lunch, I was at the head of

          7  them.

          8            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The food of

          9  the guards was different from the food you got.  How do

         10  you know that?  How do you know that their food was

         11  different?

         12       A.   First of all, I described what we ate; that

         13  is to say, that we would get a piece of bread and had a

         14  soup of some kind, made out of a little bit of potato,

         15  a little bit of cabbage, and the third time there were

         16  beans.

         17            The guards would get a different type of

         18  food.  They would get schnitzels, meat, because the

         19  cattle would be slaughtered.  Cows were brought from

         20  Kozarac, and the prisoners who were butchers by

         21  profession or knew something about the butcher's trade

         22  went to sort out all this meat that came in.

         23            Thirdly, when we had our snacks at around

         24  11.00 or 12.00, they would be brought different snacks

         25  with coffee, beer, cigarettes, a form of sandwich with

Page 1933

          1  salami or cheese or whatever.

          2            So that's a big difference between the food

          3  they ate and the food we were given.

          4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

          5  Mr. Oklopcic, you mentioned at one point that the

          6  guards were drunk.  I must say that I have difficulty

          7  in formulating this question, but in your opinion,

          8  drunkenness, a state of intoxication, was it by chance

          9  or was it regular practice, encouraged?  Or is there

         10  another hypothesis?

         11       A.   I can just say one thing, and that is that

         12  the guards were far more aggressive when they were

         13  drunk.  Whether that was encouraged or not, I think it

         14  was, but you can understand me when I say that I can't

         15  answer that question.  But they were far more

         16  aggressive when they drank.

         17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So to

         18  restate my question, it is true, from your point of

         19  view, that when the guards were under the effects, they

         20  were more aggressive.

         21       A.   Yes, that's right.

         22            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness

         23  Oklopcic, you have answered many questions asked of you

         24  by the Prosecution, by the Defence, by the Judges; you

         25  have spent a long time here in The Hague.  Have you got

Page 1934

          1  something to say which has not yet been asked of you

          2  and you'd like to say it?  Briefly.

          3            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say

          4  something about a question asked of me by Mr. Fila, and

          5  I assumed that one of the attorneys would ask me that;

          6  not only from the side of the Defence, but also from

          7  the side of the Prosecution, and perhaps the Judges as

          8  well.  I truly did try, Your Honours, to present the

          9  truth, and what I have stated here was the truth.

         10            When Mr. Fila asked me whether I hate, then I

         11  say I hate, and I must hate.  But let me repeat once

         12  again:  The gentlemen sitting here and the others who

         13  sat here never in my life would do to them what they

         14  did to me and my people and others.  And I hope that

         15  they will get the sentence they deserve, given to them

         16  by God and by you yourselves and by everyone else.  And

         17  I thank you, one and all; I thank my own attorneys, the

         18  gentlemen who defended them.  I think that we have

         19  cooperated in a proper and correct manner.

         20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  Very

         21  well.  We've put that correction as to the name

         22  mentioned.

         23            The Tribunal is here to analyse and to judge

         24  actions committed by individuals, and we should like to

         25  note that you were not capable of doing the same

Page 1935

          1  thing.  Things did happen, but what we must ensure is

          2  that none of that is ever repeated, to you or anybody

          3  else.  Thank you, Mr. Oklopcic, for coming here, thank

          4  you for your cooperation, and we apologise for having

          5  had to inconvenience you in bringing you here.  But

          6  thank you again.

          7            We are going to adjourn the hearing and

          8  continue tomorrow morning at 9.30.

          9            Are you ready, Madam Hollis, for tomorrow

         10  morning, 9.30?

         11            MS. HOLLIS:  Yes, Your Honour, we are.

         12  Perhaps when the witness excuses himself, Mr. Keegan

         13  can raise to you orally a matter that involves a

         14  witness who will be called later.  It's an oral motion,

         15  and we have conferred with the Defence

         16                 [The witness withdrew]

         17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

         18  Mr. Keegan.

         19            MR. KEEGAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

         20            I realise we've already gone over time.  We

         21  would just like to raise that we do have a motion for

         22  protective measures for an upcoming witness, and I

         23  leave it to Your Honours whether you'd like to take it

         24  up this afternoon or perhaps first thing in the

         25  morning.  We would like to do it orally and get a

Page 1936

          1  decision because it will affect the witness who will be

          2  called at the end of this week.  So obviously the

          3  outcome -- your decision on the motion will affect

          4  whether the witness is called.

          5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I beg your

          6  pardon.  Let me try and understand.  You're telling us

          7  that you're going to present the witness if we accord

          8  the protective measures, or we're going to have the

          9  witness tomorrow and then we're going to discuss

         10  protective measures?  What were you saying actually?

         11            MR. KEEGAN:  Right now the witness is

         12  scheduled to be called at the end of this week.  We

         13  need to present the motion now so that we will be able

         14  to advise the witness of the outcome of your decision

         15  on the motion prior to them travelling.

         16            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  I

         17  think that we need to go into private session, then.

         18            MR. KEEGAN:  Yes, Your Honour.

         19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

         20  Let us move into private session, please.

         21                 [Private session]

         22  (redacted)

         23  (redacted)

         24  (redacted)

         25  (redacted)

Page 1937











11 pages 1937-1949 redacted – private session











22    --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

23    3.05 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

24    the 16th day of May, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.