Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2059

1 Wednesday, 17 May 2000

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22 [Open session]

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be

24 asked to speak into the microphone, the Interpreters

25 note. Thank you.

Page 2098

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness,

2 will you please come closer to the microphone.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I will.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

5 very much, Witness.


7 Q. Sir, were there any weapons in that house on

8 that date, to your knowledge?

9 A. Not in my house, no.

10 Q. In your father's house, to your knowledge,

11 were there any weapons in that house?

12 A. As far as I was aware, there were no weapons,

13 the four houses that we owned, that is, my neighbours

14 and us, there were no weapons.

15 Q. Now, you indicated that you left the house

16 and you moved toward a certain part of the town. Now,

17 as you went outside the house, what did you see outside

18 in the streets?

19 A. I saw civilians moving in that direction.

20 There were some soldiers, there was a tank in the

21 street, there was what I called a Sumatka [phoen],

22 which was a blue police car, and there were soldiers in

23 uniforms. I remember the camouflage uniforms, both

24 army uniforms and police uniforms. And we walked along

25 in that direction. I didn't notice any problems; I saw

Page 2099

1 nothing terrible going on. The children were crying,

2 they were afraid of the tanks, but there was no problem

3 as far as I was concerned. I thought that they would

4 just conduct the search and return us home, as they

5 said they would.

6 Q. Now, did you serve in the military? .

7 A. Yes, I did serve my military service in

8 1984/1985, in Podgorica.

9 Q. What sort of speciality did you have?

10 A. I was in the anti-aircraft artillery,

11 20-millimetre, and I was a Private First Class in the

12 army.

13 Q. Did you have supervisory authority over any

14 personnel?

15 A. Well, I had a unit made up of six people. As

16 a private first class, that was what I had.

17 Q. So these six people were under your

18 authority?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, you indicated that when you went out

21 into the street you saw a tank. That tank, was it

22 familiar to you, based on your military service?

23 A. I can't tell what the make of the tank was,

24 but it did belong to the Yugoslav People's Army

25 anyway.

Page 2100

1 Q. Now, you also mentioned that you saw some

2 police vehicles, and I would like now to have an

3 exhibit provided to you.

4 MS. HOLLIS: This exhibit would be marked as

5 the next in order, which I believe for the Prosecution

6 is 3/80. This would be 3/80A and 3/80B. I have copies

7 for the Defence, and copies have previously been

8 provided for the Judges.

9 This is what will go to the Defence and this

10 is what will go to the witness. Now, if you would

11 first, please, allow the witness to look at both of

12 those photos. Now, those photos that you're given,

13 could the first one, A, be put on the screen. It says

14 "A" on the front and on the side.

15 Q. If you will look in the background at the

16 vehicle that appears to have some type of barrel

17 sticking out from it, do you recognise that?

18 A. Yes, I do recognise it. That was the

19 vehicle. And there was another vehicle, I thought it

20 was an anti-aircraft one, the barrels were longer, but

21 it was a similar type of vehicle and I seem to recall

22 this now, although I might not have said it to begin

23 with, the barrel was longer but there was this vehicle

24 as well and they passed by.

25 MS. HOLLIS: If you would put B on the screen

Page 2101

1 as well.

2 Q. Is this a similar type vehicle as well?

3 A. Yes, they are similar vehicles.

4 Q. Thank you. Now, you also mentioned that

5 there were people in the street who had camouflage

6 uniforms. Did you recognise those uniforms from your

7 time in the military?

8 A. Yes. They were camouflage uniforms of the

9 type that we called camouflage uniforms in the Yugoslav

10 People's Army, and there was the olive-green/grey type,

11 and there were also police camouflage uniforms.

12 Q. And the police camouflage uniforms were of

13 what colour?

14 A. Well, they were dark blue, light blue, a

15 mixture, but those colours generally. Some patches

16 were a little darker. Whereas the other ones were

17 green, of a light yellow colour, greeny colour.

18 Q. Were there different kinds of the green

19 camouflage uniforms or were they all the same?

20 A. Some were a little darker than others; others

21 were lighter. And then there were the olive-green/grey

22 uniforms, depending on who was wearing what. But I

23 know that particular uniform from the Yugoslav People's

24 Army.

25 Q. Now, these ones that were dark blue and light

Page 2102

1 blue camouflage, when you were in the military, had you

2 seen those uniforms in the military?

3 A. I think I had because I was at the Golubovac

4 airport once for exercises and they had that type of

5 military uniform, and those were similar uniforms to

6 that. They had blue uniforms, the soldiers at the

7 airport, and they were of the same colour, as far as

8 I'm able to remember.

9 MS. HOLLIS: I'd also ask that the witness be

10 provided with an exhibit which I have marked 3/81.

11 Copies have previously been provided for the Court, and

12 I would ask that copies be given to the Defence. If

13 that could be put on the ELMO, please.

14 Q. Now, the people that you saw in the street on

15 the 30th of May wearing uniforms, do you recognise that

16 as one of the kinds of camouflage uniforms that you

17 saw?

18 A. Yes, I did recognise this. I call this the

19 camouflage uniform of the Yugoslav People's Army.

20 Q. Do you recognise anyone in that picture?

21 A. As far as I recollect, this is Mr. Simo

22 Drljaca.

23 Q. Would you point to who is Simo Drljaca?

24 A. This man here [indicates] with his arm

25 raised.

Page 2103

1 Q. Thank you. Now, what was this area of town

2 that you were moving toward with these other people?

3 A. We call it Skela, and that's where we came

4 and we were all there together. And there was a

5 slaughterhouse there, Klanica. There were lots of us

6 there. And I noticed buses coming and going, taking

7 people off, as I approached.

8 Q. You indicated there were a lot of people

9 there. Did you recognise any of those people?

10 A. Most of them were my neighbours from the same

11 street, so I knew many of them personally.

12 Q. What happened, then, when you had been

13 gathered at this slaughterhouse?

14 A. After a short period of time, a soldier came

15 up and said that the women and children should stand

16 apart with the elderly people, over the age of 65, and

17 that the rest of us were to move towards the buses. At

18 that time there was a lot of crying, and I started to

19 cry too because we didn't know where we were going. I

20 thought the worst was going to happen. And I hugged my

21 children and my wife, and my father came up to me, told

22 me to be careful, not to make problems and that

23 everything would be all right, that I should behave

24 well. He gave me a little money, I put it in my

25 pocket. I don't know how much he gave me. My wife

Page 2104

1 also gave me her golden jewellery, and she put it in the

2 pocket of my jacket. The children were crying. I just

3 said, "Look after our children. Don't worry.

4 Everything will be fine." Of course, this was a great

5 time of stress for me because I didn't know where I was

6 going, but we sort of felt a premonition. We went into

7 the bus, we had to bow our heads and not to look

8 around. What happened to my family afterwards, I did

9 not know, until I returned from Omarska.

10 Q. So you were taken from this area to Omarska

11 camp?

12 A. Yes, that's right. Before that my father was

13 55, he came up to the guard, he was supposed to go with

14 us but he showed a paper saying that he had work

15 assignments and they said he could go back. But he is

16 pale, he has a pale complex, and they thought he might

17 be ill. My sister's husband, my brother-in-law who was

18 for Kozarac, showed them a piece of paper as well and

19 they sent him back. So they weren't taken off together

20 with us. My brother-in-law was 36 or 37, but he was

21 returned on that occasion as well.

22 Q. What time of the day or what part of the day

23 was it that you arrived at Omarska camp?

24 A. It had begun to grow dark. I don't remember

25 the exact time. I don't remember exactly.

Page 2105

1 Q. When you arrived at Omarska camp, where did

2 the bus stop?

3 A. The bus stopped in front of what we referred

4 to Mujo's dormitory. They told us to get out, to put

5 our hands up behind our backs, and to stand up against

6 the wall. We had to stand up against the wall until --

7 and they searched us. After the search, a man wrote

8 down my name and surname and my father's name, and when

9 I had finished that, at that time I was sent to the

10 pista.

11 Q. If I could ask you to speak just a little bit

12 slower, that would assist the interpreters and the

13 court reporter.

14 A. Very well. I will.

15 Q. Now, you indicated that when you got off the

16 bus that you were searched. Did you have to assume any

17 particular position when you were searched?

18 A. Yes. I had to stand with my legs astride, I

19 had to put up my three fingers and touch the wall that

20 way, and that's how they searched me.

21 Q. During the search, what, if anything, was

22 taken from you?

23 A. Well, at that moment they took everything

24 away I had in my pockets. My father had given me 300

25 or 500 marks, I forget how much. My wife's gold

Page 2106

1 jewellery was taken away and so were my cigarettes,

2 because I had some cigarettes on me.

3 Q. Was this money or jewellery ever returned to

4 you?

5 A. No, never. It was never returned.

6 Q. Now, you indicated that you arrived at this

7 place that was the entry to Mujo's room. What building

8 are you referring to?

9 A. The building is where the offices were, the

10 restaurant, and so on. And afterwards we referred to

11 as Mujo's room.

12 Q. You also indicated that from there you went

13 out onto the pista. What happened while you were on

14 the pista?

15 A. Afterwards other buses came, and I heard this

16 other bus come. And there was some beating...

17 THE INTERPRETER: ... I think the witness

18 said.

19 After a certain time had elapsed, we went

20 inside and Kvocka addressed us, and he introduced

21 himself, said he was responsible for us, something

22 along those lines, that everything would be fine, that

23 there were no problems, that we would be questioned,

24 and then that we would be returned home. And later on

25 we went to that dormitory which we referred to as

Page 2107

1 Mujo's room.

2 After about an hour or two had gone by, a bus

3 came, another bus came, and that bus was from my street

4 as well, and two young men were beaten up. They were

5 all bloody. And they just said that they had been to

6 the SUP and that they had been beaten up.

7 Q. If I could ask you to stop there for a

8 moment. Where were you when Kvocka addressed you?

9 A. At that moment I was at the pista.

10 Q. This person Kvocka who addressed you, did you

11 know him from before the camp?

12 A. No, I didn't know him.

13 Q. How was he dressed when he addressed you?

14 A. He had a police uniform on, and he had a

15 pistol, and I can't remember whether he had a rifle on

16 that occasion or not. I cannot recall. He said that

17 everything would be all right, that we would be

18 interrogated and then we would be returned home.

19 Q. You indicated that he introduced himself and

20 then after that he told you something to the effect

21 that he was responsible for you?

22 A. Yes. That is how I understood his remark. I

23 think he also gave his name at that moment, but I'm not

24 quite sure of that. But later, in any case, I learnt

25 that his name was Kvocka.

Page 2108

1 Q. Now, when you think he gave his name at that

2 moment, do you mean his first name and last name, or

3 just part of a name?

4 A. I think he said first and last name, but I

5 was in such a state that I didn't pay attention to all

6 these details, and I couldn't remember the name.

7 Q. Then you indicated you went into Mujo's room

8 and two young men came in and they were beaten up.

9 What were the names of these young men?

10 A. (redacted)and Hamdija Brkic. (redacted)

11 (redacted), and Hamdija was close to the

12 club up there. I knew them. Hamdija wore rubber

13 boots. He was not at all active.

14 Q. What was their ethnicity?

15 A. They were also Muslims.

16 Q. You indicated that he was not at all active.

17 What do you mean?

18 A. I mean he was not interested in politics at

19 all. He was out of a job. He would just come and

20 paint people's houses; he would just work for a

21 living. So he wasn't active in any way.

22 Q. If you can recall at all, about what time was

23 it that you were actually taken into Mujo's room that

24 night?

25 A. I think it was getting cool, so it was about

Page 2109

1 12.00 or before 12.00 that we were taken inside. I'm

2 not sure of the time. But it was already night-time

3 and getting cooler.

4 Q. How long had you been on the pista before

5 Kvocka came and addressed you?

6 A. Roughly an hour and a half or two.

7 Q. Was it still daylight? Was it dusk? Was it

8 night?

9 A. It was dusk, and night had started to fall.

10 I think that the lights were already coming on. I seem

11 to remember that.

12 Q. Now, how long did you stay in Mujo's room?

13 A. The next morning I was taken out to the pista

14 again.

15 Q. When you went to the pista the next morning,

16 what did you see on the pista? What armed personnel

17 did you see on the pista?

18 A. There were military men, I cannot remember

19 whether that was that same day, they were on two

20 sides. But later I know they were there, seven days

21 later. But a long time has gone by so I can't

22 remember. There were guards, as were normally there on

23 the pista. We sat there, waiting to be interrogated.

24 Q. So there were guards and then there were

25 these military men; is that correct?

Page 2110

1 A. Yes. Yes.

2 Q. The military men that you speak of, were

3 these men that you came to recognise as regular camp

4 personnel at Omarska?

5 A. I later recognised among them some of them as

6 camp personnel. Before that I didn't know any of

7 them. Later on I recognised them, and I know them by

8 name.

9 Q. Now, when you were on the pista this day or

10 the next day, did you notice any special units there?

11 A. I think those were special units in this

12 police car. They wore dark blue camouflage uniforms,

13 and I think they belonged to the special police force.

14 Q. What kind of police car was it that they had?

15 A. They had a blue car and a large machine-gun

16 on top. There was one on the left and one on the

17 right; they were parked there. In front was the

18 restaurant and behind was the wall of the hangar.

19 Q. Just a while ago you were shown two

20 photographs, 3/80A and B of blue vehicles that you

21 identified. Do you recall that photograph?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The vehicles that you saw with this special

24 unit, were they the same type of vehicles as on those

25 photographs?

Page 2111

1 A. I think they were the same type of vehicles.

2 Q. How long did this special unit stay at

3 Omarska, to your knowledge?

4 A. Not long, but I can't tell you exactly.

5 Seven days, maybe a little more. But I cannot say

6 exactly for how long.

7 Q. During this seven days that they were in the

8 camp, where were you being held?

9 A. At that time I was at the pista during the

10 daytime, and in the evening to sleep I went to the

11 restaurant or upstairs, depending on where there was

12 room, upstairs in the hangar building or in the

13 restaurant. But in the morning we had to go back to

14 the pista.

15 Q. What did you observe of the conduct of these

16 special units towards the detainees?

17 A. I remember once a shot was fired when we were

18 lining up for lunch. A shot was fired and a man was

19 wounded in the hand. His name is Ilija Musanovic, and

20 he was from my street. I remember that incident.

21 Q. The person who wounded him, was this person a

22 regular camp personnel or was it a member of this

23 special unit?

24 A. I didn't see that person who did that, but I

25 think that they were these special units.

Page 2112

1 Q. During the time this special unit was in

2 Omarska, what differences, if any, did you notice

3 between the way they treated the detainees and the way

4 the regular camp personnel treated the detainees?

5 A. Well, at first, while they were there, there

6 were provocations. But later on when they left, when

7 these special units left, it was worse.

8 Q. How long were you held on the pista?

9 A. I was on the pista for more than a month,

10 until they transferred me to the hangar. I was in the

11 hangar then, but prior to that I spent all my time at

12 the pista. In the hangar, I had lost all my strength

13 from bad food, the fact that I didn't go to eat, that

14 the food was bad, and I had no strength left. I feared

15 going for lunch because we would be beaten, so I

16 preferred to be hungry than to be beaten again.

17 Q. So did something happen to you in the hangar

18 that resulted in your being taken to Mujo's room?

19 A. Yes. What happened was that I didn't take

20 food any more, so I lost consciousness. Then a friend

21 learnt that I was not eating and they transferred me to

22 Mujo's room. And there was this Predo who beat me

23 most, who knocked out my teeth, and after that I didn't

24 dare go to eat anymore. So I was half dead, and he

25 carried me to Mujo's room. They gave me a drip, and it

Page 2113

1 was thanks to my neighbour that I survived.

2 Q. Now, when you went to Mujo's room and you

3 were half dead, who gave you a drip?

4 A. As far as I can recollect, it was a doctor.

5 Whether it was Esad Sadikovic or someone else, I didn't

6 know them in person. But I think it was Esad

7 Sadikovic. He gave me half a bottle of the drip and

8 the other half to another elderly man. Where he got

9 the infusion liquid from, I don't know.

10 Q. The doctor that treated you, was this person

11 a detainee as well?

12 A. Yes, he was also a detainee.

13 Q. You've spoken of a drip or an infusion. Are

14 you talking about some sort of liquid that was put into

15 your vein using a needle?

16 A. Yes. He put a needle, and this neighbour

17 held the bottle in his hand until the dripping ended.

18 Q. Do you have any recollection as to

19 approximately how long you were held in the hangar?

20 A. Roughly 20 days and more I was in the

21 hangar.

22 Q. And then after that you were in Mujo's room

23 for the rest of the time.

24 A. Until the camp was disbanded, I was in Mujo's

25 room.

Page 2114

1 Q. While you were in Omarska camp, were you ever

2 interrogated?

3 A. Yes, I was interrogated. When I went for

4 interrogation, my turn came. Before that they asked

5 for volunteers because they didn't beat or mistreat

6 people at first. But then the beating started en masse

7 at the interrogations so we avoided going for

8 interrogation. But eventually my turn came. A guard

9 said that I had to go. I didn't see who he was. I

10 went there and stood in the corridor. Again I had to

11 lean against the wall and spread my legs. He hit me on

12 the back several times. I saw Nedzad Muslimovic. He

13 was a young man. He had been beaten up and all

14 bloody. And he pointed at him and said, "You tell

15 everything you know or you'll end up like this." I

16 stood there for a while and then I entered the office.

17 Two unknown persons to me questioned us. And then this

18 man wanted to hit me and he said "No, that's enough."

19 Maybe he knew me by my father, who was well known. And

20 I was already weak and he wouldn't let me -- let them

21 beat me.

22 He asked me whether I had responded to the

23 mobilisation call. I said I had, that I went to Banja

24 Luka, and I had my military booklet where they said

25 that I had been discharged because of an ulcer. And

Page 2115

1 then they continued questioning me normally and they

2 wouldn't let the guard beat me.

3 And when this guard took me back, he said,

4 "You'll pay me for this," and I went back to the

5 pista. As Drazenko Predojevic beat me most, I had

6 boots on that he thought looked like military boots,

7 and he hit me most. I'm always convinced that he was

8 the guard who took me for interrogation.

9 When I was at the pista I tried to be next to

10 the wall. One day I didn't succeed, I was closer to

11 the guard. He approached me suddenly, I didn't even

12 see him. He hit me with his rifle butt and he knocked

13 out my teeth, and from then I always avoided seeing

14 this Drazenko because he was the one I feared most

15 because I hadn't done anything. I wasn't guilty or

16 anything, but he had something against me. And after

17 that I was in the hangar, I didn't eat any food --

18 Q. Let's stop for a moment, please, and go back

19 to several things. You indicated that you were

20 interrogated and that he took you and he beat you.

21 When you say "he," do you know who it was who did this?

22 A. I think -- I learnt that that person's name

23 was Drazenko Predojevic. No one else beat me except

24 him.

25 Q. If I can interrupt you again. Did this

Page 2116

1 beating occur before you were taken into the room for

2 interrogation?

3 A. This beating was before. And of course when

4 you went to the restaurant, it was normal to be

5 beaten --

6 Q. Let's concentrate on the interrogation,

7 okay? Now, you indicated that while you were in the

8 interrogation room, someone tried to beat you and

9 someone else said no. Who was it who stopped the

10 person from beating you? Was it the interrogator or

11 was it a guard?

12 A. The interrogator, he said that I shouldn't be

13 beaten.

14 Q. He said that you should not be beaten.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. All right.

17 A. That everything was all right and that I

18 shouldn't be beaten.

19 Q. Then when you were taken from the

20 interrogation room, you said that someone said

21 something to the effect that, "You will pay for this."

22 Now, was that an interrogator, was that a guard, or do

23 you not know who it was?

24 A. As he escorted me, I think it was that

25 guard. I didn't dare look at him. But I'm convinced

Page 2117

1 it was that same guard. And as Drazenko Predojevic

2 beat me most, he had something against me, so I think

3 it must have been him. And he also said I would pay

4 for this. I don't know why I would pay. I never

5 understood what he meant.

6 Q. Now, you said that a person, Drazenko

7 Predojevic, beat you most. Did you know this person

8 before you went to the camp?

9 A. No. I said I didn't know anyone in person.

10 I learnt from the guards or from one of the detainees

11 the names of these people. Whether they were the

12 proper names, the real names, I don't know. We learned

13 many nicknames.

14 Q. Do you recall whether it was a guard or

15 detainees who told you the name of Drazenko Predojevic?

16 A. I'm not sure of that, who told me. But in

17 any event, I learnt that it was Drazenko Predojevic.

18 Whether it was from the guards or someone else, I don't

19 know. It was a long time ago. I learnt from others,

20 either from the guards or from one of the prisoners,

21 these things.

22 Q. Do you know how Drazenko would be dressed,

23 what kind of clothing he wore in the camp?

24 A. He wore a police uniform, and once or twice

25 he wore a military shirt. But mostly he wore a police

Page 2118

1 uniform. Of course, it wasn't a camouflage police

2 uniform but a regular police uniform.

3 Q. When you say that once or twice he wore a

4 military shirt, what kind of military shirt?

5 A. The usually SMB, olive-grey uniform or

6 shirt.

7 Q. So this shirt was not a camouflage shirt.

8 A. No. No. No, it wasn't.

9 Q. Now, while you were in the camp, what, if

10 anything, did you learn about what shift Drazenko

11 Predojevic worked on?

12 A. I learnt that, but much later. And I'm not

13 sure now and I cannot say that he was in Krkan's or

14 Krle's or Ckalja's shift, because all these things have

15 gotten mixed up in my memory now, so I can't tell. I

16 tried to think about those things less, because they

17 torment me emotionally.

18 Q. Now, you mentioned a Krkan, Krle, and

19 Ckalja. Did you know any of these individuals before

20 you went to the camp?

21 A. No, I didn't know them.

22 Q. Let's start with Krkan. Did you ever know

23 Krkan by any other name other than Krkan?

24 A. No, I don't know him personally; only by the

25 name of Krkan. Later on I learnt his name -- his real

Page 2119

1 name, but at the time I only knew him as Krkan.

2 Q. And how did you come to learn his name,

3 Krkan?

4 A. Again, from the guards, when they talked to

5 one another, or from the detainees. That is how I

6 learned his name, Krkan. He didn't introduce himself

7 personally.

8 Q. As for Krle, did you know him by any other

9 name other than Krle?

10 A. No. Just Krle, by his nickname.

11 Q. How did you learn his nickname, Krle?

12 A. Also in the same way as Krkan's: from the

13 guards, from one of us detainees. That's how I learnt

14 it.

15 Q. As for Ckalja, did you know him by any other

16 name?

17 A. No.

18 Q. How did you learn his name, Ckalja?

19 A. In the same way as the previous two names,

20 from the detainees or the guards.

21 Q. Now, you mentioned Krkan's shift, Krle's

22 shift, Ckalja's shift. How did you come to learn that

23 these shifts were known by those names?

24 A. Amongst us detainees. And I noticed that

25 they didn't have fixed positions. They would tour, the

Page 2120

1 guards, and talk to them. They didn't have their own

2 defined guard position. And so I learned that they

3 were shift leaders.

4 Q. So your observations were that guards had

5 fixed positions?

6 A. Yes. For instance, they would stand next to

7 the "white house," to the entrance of the restaurant,

8 around us. They had certain positions. He may walk up

9 and down a little, whereas these three, they were

10 always on the move, and I concluded from that that they

11 were shift leaders. And when the guards came, the

12 guards in a line, they would accompany them on the

13 side, and that is on the basis of which I made my

14 conclusion.

15 Q. You say when the guards came, they would

16 accompany them on the side. Who would accompany them

17 on the side?

18 A. The shift leaders: Krle, Krkan, and Ckalja.

19 Q. And when you say, "when the guards came,"

20 what are you talking about? Are you talking about

21 shift changes?

22 A. Yes, I'm talking about shift changes. There

23 were three shifts, and each lasted 12 hours, from 7.00

24 a.m. to 7.00 p.m., and from 7.00 p.m. to 7.00 a.m., and

25 they would be working like that, and then they would be

Page 2121

1 free for 24 hours. That's how the shifts changed.

2 Q. Now, this kind of formation that you

3 describe, where the guards are in a line and the shift

4 commander is walking to the side of them, was that a

5 formation that was familiar to you from your military

6 service?

7 A. It was similar to the way I used to do my

8 guard duty. And I didn't see both shift leaders at the

9 same time. Whether they had an assignment of posts in

10 advance or not, I don't know.

11 Q. Now, you say that this formation was similar

12 to when you would do your guard duty. Was this when

13 you were in charge of these six subordinates? Is that

14 the time period you're talking about?

15 A. Yes. I'm talking about the time I did my

16 military service in the Yugoslav People's Army. When

17 we had to keep watch duty, that is how we had to act,

18 in accordance with the rules of the Yugoslav People's

19 Army, and I remember that.

20 Q. So the leader, or the supervisor, would be on

21 the side and the others would be in a line?

22 A. In a line, one by one or two by two. And of

23 course, when you ended your guard duty, you would go

24 back to the last position. But I didn't notice that in

25 the camp. I didn't notice that at the camp, that

Page 2122

1 system of rotation, that when you finished, you went to

2 the end of the line.

3 Q. Now, you've indicated that you came to

4 recognise these three individuals and know their

5 names. While you were in Omarska camp, how often would

6 you see Krkan?

7 A. I would see Krkan when his shift was on

8 duty. If they worked during the daytime, I would see

9 him from 7.00 a.m. to 7.00 p.m. I would see him

10 passing by, around us, at the pista. When I was in

11 Mujo's room, I saw him only once in the evening. He

12 was at the entrance. At that moment a guard made a

13 call-up of names of detainees to come out, and that is

14 when I saw him at the entrance to Mujo's room. That

15 guard called out --

16 Q. If I could interrupt you. Yes, please go

17 ahead.

18 A. That guard called out some names, and they

19 were told to pick up their things and to come out. And

20 normally the announcement would be made that they would

21 be exchanged.

22 Q. And is that the announcement that was made on

23 that night?

24 A. Yes. It was night-time. The night shift was

25 on duty.

Page 2123

1 Q. Do you recall the names of any of those

2 people who were called out on that occasion?

3 A. I remember Asmir, who wasn't there at that

4 time, Zlatan, and Esad. I knew those persons. And I

5 was with Asmir in the hangar, and then I was moved to

6 Mujo's room. After that I didn't see him.

7 Q. Now, after these people were called out that

8 night, did you ever see any of them again?

9 A. I never saw any of them again, of the three

10 men.

11 Q. Do you yourself have any knowledge as to

12 whether they are still missing?

13 A. I have knowledge from Asmir Cehic's wife. I

14 never told her that he was called out because I didn't

15 have the courage to do so. And he has an invalid child

16 of 16 or 17, and that child used to walk, but now it is

17 now an invalid. And so I did not have the courage to

18 say that he was called out. I did not see him being

19 taken away, but I know that his name was called out.

20 And I've never had the courage to say that. I always

21 said he stayed on after me; I didn't see him anymore.

22 Q. And the information from his wife, has he

23 been reunited with his wife, or is he still missing?

24 A. As far as I know, he is still missing; he

25 still hasn't met up with his wife, been reunited with

Page 2124

1 her. And two months ago, approximately, I talked to

2 her, and she still had no knowledge of his

3 whereabouts.

4 Q. Now, other than this one occasion when people

5 were called out and Krkan was there, were there any

6 other occasions you saw Krkan present when people were

7 called out?

8 A. No, I didn't see that, apart from the time

9 that I was in Mujo's room. But I didn't see him

10 personally. There were roll-calls, depending on where

11 you were. You tried to avoid being in their sight and

12 being called out, so -- but I didn't -- as I say, I

13 didn't see him personally.

14 Q. Did you personally ever see Krkan engage in

15 any mistreatment of detainees at Omarska?

16 A. I didn't see him personally hit anyone. I

17 did not see that, except for that roll-call when he was

18 there on that occasion. But I didn't see him

19 personally. As for his shift, there were terrible

20 things. I didn't see him prevent guards from beating

21 us or him beating anybody personally. I did not see

22 that.

23 Q. Now, you also mentioned Krle. While you were

24 on the pista, how often would you see Krle?

25 A. If he worked during the day, the day shift,

Page 2125

1 then I would see him on the pista, walking around and

2 talking to the guards. In my opinion, that shift was

3 one of the better ones. But there was an incident that

4 took place, and I recall that. That is most vivid in

5 my mind. I couldn't believe it --

6 Q. I'm going to interrupt you there. We'll talk

7 about that, but not right at this moment.

8 Now, after you moved from the pista, how

9 often would you see Krle?

10 A. Afterwards, when I was in that closed

11 premises, I didn't see him often; when I was inside,

12 not when I was outside. But while I was at the pista,

13 I would see him, yes.

14 Q. Now, very early in your testimony you

15 indicated that the first night you were in the camp,

16 Kvocka introduced himself and spoke to the detainees.

17 Now, after that period, while you were on the pista,

18 how often would you see Kvocka?

19 A. Well, I would see Kvocka for about a month.

20 During the day I would see him. He would walk around,

21 talk to the guards, so I did see him. But I didn't

22 notice anything on him. I didn't notice him doing

23 anything else. I would just see him during the day

24 five or six times. He would come down from the office,

25 that kind of thing. So I'd see him talking to the

Page 2126

1 guards, coming and going. I didn't follow him around,

2 of course, but I did see him about. And this went on

3 for about a month.

4 Q. And after that month, you no longer saw him

5 in the camp?

6 A. As far as I can remember, no, I did not.

7 Q. And you indicated that you would see him

8 going about and talking to the guards. Did you ever

9 see him enter any of the buildings in the camp?

10 A. As far as I remember, I'm not sure I saw

11 him. He went towards the "white house," for example,

12 but I didn't actually see him go into the "white

13 house." He would move around by the pista and hangar

14 area. But as I say, I didn't follow him around, so I

15 wasn't able to see him going in anywhere or beat

16 somebody. I didn't see that, and I cannot state that.

17 Q. During this time period when Kvocka was still

18 in the camp, did you ever, on any occasions, observe

19 dead bodies out in the open in the camp?

20 A. Yes, I did see dead bodies close to the

21 "white house." The "white house," as I'm sitting now,

22 is to my right. I saw them there. And in the morning,

23 after we had slept, up to the "red house", I saw some

24 dead bodies there. And on one occasion, I saw one of

25 my neighbours being carried out after being

Page 2127

1 interrogated, and I recognised his jacket. He was a

2 strongly-built man and I recognised him to be that

3 person. And I did, of course, see bodies next to the

4 "white house" or when we went to the toilet upstairs.

5 And when we washed, on one occasion I saw dead bodies.

6 Q. Now, this person that you saw and recognised,

7 who was that?

8 A. (redacted)

9 (redacted). We worked together in

10 Celpak, my own company. And his turn for interrogation

11 came and he went upstairs, and they carried him out of

12 there and I think he was dead. And from that moment

13 on, I never saw that person again.

14 Q. Now, at this time I'd like to provide you

15 with a photograph that's been taken of the model before

16 you, and I'd like to ask you to identify some buildings

17 and some locations.

18 MS. HOLLIS: This would be the next exhibit

19 in order, which should be 3/81.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

21 Mr. Krstan Simic.

22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

23 Madam Hollis has introduced a photograph which was

24 Exhibit 3, but she didn't say whether it would be

25 accepted into evidence and for identification

Page 2128

1 purposes.

2 We have a general objection to make that very

3 frequently they are trying to put answers into the

4 witness' mouth. That is a general observation and a

5 general objection.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam

7 Hollis.

8 MS. HOLLIS: As far as the exhibits are

9 concerned, Your Honour, I thought that the procedure

10 was that at the conclusion of the testimony, we would

11 deal with all the exhibits.

12 Secondly, as to the putting words into the

13 mouth of the witness, the witness carried on with a

14 very long discussion of events, and when I went back, I

15 believe if you look at the transcript, you will see I

16 didn't say anything other than what the witness had

17 indicated, and it was for clarification, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

19 your response.

20 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Madam Hollis

21 gave numbers, assigned numbers to the previous two

22 exhibits. The only exhibit which did not receive a

23 number is this document. The next document was

24 assigned a number. So technically this document was

25 sidestepped in the records. So regardless of whether

Page 2129

1 it will be tendered or not, I am afraid of some

2 technical problems arising and that it has not been

3 tendered as an exhibit and assigned a number, in fact.

4 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, if I misspoke, this

5 should be 3/82, and I perhaps misspoke and said "81."

6 It should be 3/82, marked for identification at this

7 point.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: If not, we will repeat the

9 same number to different documents.

10 [Interpretation] I think it's clear. With

11 respect to the file, we have already said that it would

12 be a better idea to take all the documents together at

13 the end of the examination-in-chief, or

14 cross-examination, to avoid interruption, and this is

15 true for the cross-examination by the Defence as well.

16 At the end of everything, we're going to take all the

17 documents together to facilitate matters and to speed

18 up matters, so I think Madam Hollis was quite right

19 there.

20 As far as the other objection made by

21 Mr. Krstan Simic is concerned, you can read the

22 LiveNote, and if there are any specific objections on

23 your part, we can deal with that. I don't think your

24 objections are founded, but of course you do have the

25 transcript, the LiveNote, and you can always correct it

Page 2130

1 if you feel the need to do so.

2 I would like to tell you that I prefer this

3 mode of questioning; that is to say, to leave the

4 witness to speak as freely as possible and then to go

5 back to certain matters. It is true that she has to

6 repeat what the witness has said in order to ask her

7 question, but I think that that is preferable rather

8 than ask short questions with short answers. I think

9 that in the end, it is more spontaneous. The testimony

10 is more spontaneous because the witness is allowed to

11 speak freely, and afterwards, of course, we can go back

12 to our specific questions.

13 But, in any case, everybody has the right to

14 choose his own method of examination. Of course, we

15 can't induce answers, put words into the witness' mouth

16 and infringe rights in this way.

17 But having said that, thank you, Mr. Simic,

18 for bringing that to our attention, and Madam Hollis,

19 you have the floor to continue.

20 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour. If that

21 photograph could be shown to the witness and then put

22 on the ELMO, please. Your Honours, I believe these are

23 photos that I had previously provided to the Defence.

24 Q. Sir, if you would just take a moment to look

25 at that and familiarise yourself with it.

Page 2131

1 MS. HOLLIS: And then if it could be placed

2 on the ELMO, please. Could you bring that forward so

3 the other building shows. There's another building by

4 the hangar. Yes.

5 Q. Now, sir, you have spoken about the

6 restaurant building, the administration building.

7 Would you point to the building that you're referring

8 to as the restaurant building?

9 A. The restaurant building is this one here

10 [indicates]. This is what we called the hangar

11 [indicates]. This one here [indicates] is what we

12 called the "white house," and that is the little red

13 hut or house, and I referred to that as the "red

14 house."

15 Q. You also talked about being held in an area

16 you called the pista. Could you indicate to the Court

17 this area that you call the pista?

18 A. This is what we call the pista [indicates].

19 It is this area, this concrete slab area between the

20 hangar and the restaurant. This is the area I was in

21 [indicates], and I was always up against the wall here,

22 the wall of the hangar.

23 Q. Now, you indicated that you saw bodies in

24 several locations during the time period that Kvocka

25 was still in the camp. Could you point to those areas

Page 2132

1 and show the Judges where you saw those bodies?

2 A. I would see the bodies on this side of the

3 "white house" [indicates], and once during the day,

4 that is, one day that I was in the "white house," I

5 spent one day in the "white house," and from one of the

6 rooms I saw them behind -- dead bodies behind the

7 "white house." And then when we went to sleep at

8 night, if I wasn't in the restaurant, I was in the

9 hangar, on the upper floor. And when we would go to

10 the toilet in the morning, we would do that here

11 [indicates], and I saw dead bodies next to this "red

12 house" here.

13 Q. Could you again point to that area next to

14 the "red house" and show where it was you saw these

15 bodies.

16 A. In front of this here [indicates]. That's

17 where I saw them, because the grass had been left to

18 grow high there. But I saw the dead bodies there.

19 Q. Now --

20 A. And we went to the toilet there. We urinated

21 there, and that's where I saw the dead bodies. I

22 didn't recognise anybody, but I did see the dead

23 bodies.

24 Q. The "red house" is the red house that is

25 parallel to the "white house"; correct?

Page 2133

1 A. Yes, but lower down.

2 Q. When you initially pointed at the "white

3 house," you pointed to the side of the "white house"

4 that is the side toward the restaurant building; is

5 that correct?

6 A. Yes. This is what I call the "red house".

7 Q. What about the "white house"?

8 A. The "white house" is this one here

9 [indicates].

10 Q. You pointed to bodies on the side of the

11 "white house," that is, closer to the restaurant

12 building; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, that's right, closer to the restaurant.

14 This is where the bodies were [indicates], and I could

15 see them from the pista. And when I was inside the

16 "white house," I could see it through the window. I

17 saw bodies behind the "white house," dead bodies. And

18 as I say, I was in the "white house" for one day.

19 Q. When you saw these dead bodies, how many dead

20 bodies at a time would you see?

21 A. I can't tell you the exact number, but there

22 were more than five or six bodies. I would see them

23 here [indicates], bodies here [indicates], and bodies

24 down there [indicates]. I don't know the exact

25 number. I can't say I counted them, but more than five

Page 2134

1 or six bodies.

2 Q. When you saw these bodies, were you close

3 enough that you could tell -- you could see any

4 injuries to these bodies?

5 A. I saw that they had been beaten up. I saw --

6 I remember one body. It was all black and blue and

7 bloody. Whether that was from the beatings or whether

8 he was killed -- whether he died from the beatings or

9 whether he was killed by gunshot, I can't say, but

10 that's what the body looked like. And they did not die

11 a natural death, as they say.

12 Q. Now, these bodies that you saw, how long were

13 these bodies in these positions before they were

14 removed?

15 A. Well, I would see a truck come by, and they

16 would load the bodies onto the truck and take them away

17 somewhere. I don't know where. This was one day, and

18 the next day the bodies would be taken away.

19 Q. Now, at this time I'd like you to look at a

20 photograph, and this is an exhibit that has been

21 previously marked. It is 3/37.

22 MS. HOLLIS: I do have copies for the

23 Defence, and copies have, I believe, been provided for

24 the Court.

25 Q. You said that bodies were taken away. By

Page 2135

1 what type of vehicle were they taken away?

2 A. It was a truck belonging to the mine. I call

3 it Betonac, and it was orange in colour. And the

4 bodies were placed to the back of the truck and taken

5 off in an unknown direction. That's the truck

6 [indicates] but before it had some wheels.

7 MS. HOLLIS: Now, if that could be put on the

8 overhead, please.

9 Q. So that's the type of truck you would see

10 that would take away these bodies?

11 A. Yes, that's the kind of truck I saw take away

12 the bodies into some unknown direction; at least I

13 didn't know where.

14 Q. There appears to be some writing on that

15 truck. Could you tell us what that writing says?

16 A. It says "The mine of iron ore, Ljubija."

17 It's not very clear on the picture, but that's what it

18 says.

19 Q. Thank you. Now, you mentioned that you were

20 held in the hangar building for a period of time.

21 MS. HOLLIS: I would ask if Exhibit 3/77 and,

22 I believe it would be, 3/77C be provided to the

23 witness. That is the ground floor of the hangar

24 building.

25 I have a copy of what I believe is 3/77C. If

Page 2136

1 that would expedite matters, you could show this copy

2 to the Defence. It is one part of the exhibit. It is

3 the ground floor of the hangar building. If you could

4 show that to the Defence first, please. With the

5 Court's permission, I will use that copy.

6 Q. Now, sir, I'd like you for a moment to look

7 at this diagram, and do you recognise that diagram?

8 A. Yes, I do recognise it as the hangar, what I

9 refer to as the hangar.

10 Q. Now, you indicated that after you were on the

11 pista, you were held in the hangar for a period of

12 time. What floor of the hangar were you held in? Was

13 it the ground floor or the first floor?

14 A. I was on the ground floor, and I went through

15 the large door, the garage door, and I was to the right

16 of the wall, in that part of the hangar.

17 MS. HOLLIS: Now, if that exhibit could be

18 put on the ELMO, please, so that the witness can point

19 to what he just described.

20 Q. Now, you indicated that you went through a

21 certain door and stayed in a certain place. Can you

22 show us what you're referring to?

23 A. I was here [indicates] at this first door,

24 and I was in this section here [indicates] in the

25 hangar. There was a sort of wire here, and there were

Page 2137

1 people there before. But I was here [indicates]. And

2 when I was in the hangar, I was so exhausted, I was

3 here all the time in the hangar. And it was like some

4 oil on the concrete floor, and that's where they were

5 and I was. And when we had to go to the toilet, they

6 would take us over there, but we always avoided going

7 to the toilet because there were always beatings.

8 Q. Now, let me ask you, you have pointed to an

9 area that appears to be in this area that is marked

10 "A1", and you point to an area that looks to be close

11 to a wall. The wall that you're pointing toward, is

12 that the wall that would have been facing toward the

13 pista and the restaurant building?

14 A. Yes, that's the wall, next to the pista and

15 towards the restaurant building. I went in through

16 this first door.

17 Q. This first door, you indicated, I believe, it

18 was a large door. It's a large door into the hangar?

19 A. Yes, a big door.

20 Q. Now, while you were in the hangar, how many

21 other people were in there with you in this area that

22 you've indicated in A1?

23 A. All this was full up [indicates], and this

24 was a sort of wire fence and there were people here. I

25 can't tell you the exact number, but there were a lot

Page 2138

1 of us. I can't tell you the exact number.

2 Q. Now, you pointed toward what you call a wire

3 or a fence area that appears to be close to the

4 markings of A3, A4, A5, A6, A7. Is that where the

5 fenced area is that you're talking about?

6 A. Yes, here [indicates], this was the fenced-in

7 area. Why it was fenced in, I don't know. But there

8 was a wire sort of fence there, and those people were

9 there.

10 Q. There were people inside the wire fence?

11 A. Yes. The people were here as well

12 [indicates], and there were people here [indicates]

13 too.

14 Q. Now, you've indicated what your physical

15 condition was while you were in the hangar. As far as

16 the other individuals in this hangar area, what did you

17 observe about their physical condition?

18 A. They were in a similar state, depending on

19 who they were. Some of them had bruises, black and

20 blue. But they were all exhausted from hunger, from

21 fear. We were all pale, long hair, we had beards. We

22 looked awful. Even if you looked at yourself, when you

23 would see yourself, you would get a fright. We were

24 just skin and bone. Everybody had lost an enormous

25 amount of weight from lack of food, from the beatings,

Page 2139

1 and everything else.

2 Q. You also indicated that there was an area you

3 would be taken to to go to the toilet. Can you show us

4 again what area that was?

5 A. There was a door here [indicates] and there

6 were some steps, and that was the toilet there

7 [indicates].

8 Q. What number is that? Is that number --

9 A. I can't remember. But that's where the

10 toilet was. We would have to pass through this way.

11 Q. Looking at the diagram, can you tell us what

12 number is in that room that you've pointed to?

13 A. I think it's A11 or 6. I don't really know.

14 The door was there, but I was very ill there and tried

15 to move around as little as possible. But I do know

16 that there were some steps there, and then you had to

17 go up these steps to the WC. But as I say, I tried to

18 move around as little as possible because I had no

19 strength left, I was ill, so I didn't really remember

20 the details. But I do know that I was there and I went

21 to the toilet this away [indicates], but exactly what I

22 did, how I went up this section, I don't know. I can't

23 remember.

24 Q. Now, you indicated that people would try to

25 avoid going to the toilet because they would be

Page 2140

1 beaten. Who beat them?

2 A. The guards beat them when they went to the

3 toilet. Five or ten people would line up, and the

4 guards would beat them.

5 Q. On what shifts would these beatings occur?

6 A. Usually in Krkan's shift was when these

7 beatings took place. It was this shift that beat

8 most. The others did too, but these were particularly

9 ferocious in their beatings, and we referred to it as

10 Krkan's shift. They were terrible, those beatings, so

11 we all tried to avoid going out and being seen as much

12 as possible.

13 Q. Now, if people didn't go to the toilets to go

14 to the bathroom, where did they relieve themselves?

15 A. Well, there were receptacles of some kind,

16 but they were all full. So if we had to pee, then we

17 just pee'd where we were on the spot rather than go

18 out, or they would just wet their pants rather than

19 going out and being beaten. And I did this myself, I

20 pee'd in my pants several times. I apologise for

21 having to say that, but that's how it was. Or we would

22 get dysentery, for example, and if you had dysentery,

23 you didn't have much time to get to the toilet, so you

24 would do what you had to do there too, on the way.

25 That's what happened. They were terrible things. And

Page 2141

1 as I say, I was too scared to go out, I was scared.

2 Q. How would you describe the general conditions

3 in the hangar, in the area that you were?

4 A. They were terrible conditions. There was oil

5 on the concrete floor. It was cold, and quite

6 certainly we all had consequences from that damp

7 concrete and everything else, because the conditions

8 were atrocious in that part.

9 Q. How did you get water while you were in the

10 hangar building?

11 A. Well, you either had to go to the toilet or

12 they brought us a canister. But we had to sing the

13 songs, and they loved hearing us sing their songs.

14 Q. What kind of songs?

15 A. Well, I remember still, and I tend to sing

16 the song, "Who Says, Who Lies". That was one of the

17 songs we would have to sing to get a bit of water. I

18 got so used to singing it that sometimes even now I

19 tend to slip into the song, the words of the song. It

20 just happens of its own accord because it stuck in my

21 memory.

22 Q. And what is that song, "Who Says, Who Lies"?

23 What is the rest of it, if you remember?

24 A. I feel a bit embarrassed to sing it for you.

25 Q. You don't have to sing it. You can just tell

Page 2142

1 us.

2 A. "Who is saying, who is lying, that Serbia is

3 small. It is not small. It went to war three times."

4 This song gave them strength and raised their morale.

5 Q. So if you sang that song, were you then given

6 sufficient amounts of water?

7 A. Yes, we would get water. It depended on how

8 many of us there were. There were cases where they

9 would throw it through the window, and more of it would

10 get spilled than we would be able to drink. There were

11 cases when this happened. You had to sing louder and

12 louder to get some water. A couple of times, I was at

13 the pista and people who were in the garage were crying

14 out for water, and they also had to sing. And the

15 guards laughed and then they brought them water. These

16 were terrible things.

17 Q. When these people were crying out for water,

18 how loudly were they crying?

19 A. If we were at the pista, they cried out so

20 loudly that we could hear them, and this was in a

21 closed room. And we might have been at the pista, so

22 we heard them, so it meant that their cries were loud

23 and their singing was loud. And to get water, they had

24 to sing.

25 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, if I could ask one

Page 2143

1 more question, I'll be finished with this area, and

2 then after the break we can move to another area.

3 Q. You indicated that people were afraid to go

4 to the bathroom because they would be beaten, so that

5 they would urinate sometimes in their clothing, that

6 they would have dysentery and defecate in their

7 clothing. During the time you were at Omarska camp,

8 how many times were you given the opportunity to wash

9 yourself or your clothes?

10 A. Only once. They took us out to the grass

11 between the "white house" and the small red hut. They

12 took our clothes off, and they took powerful hoses and

13 bathed us like that. And we were so weak that some men

14 fell down. And when they fell down, they laughed.

15 Q. When they fell down, who laughed?

16 A. It was the only time I had a bath. The

17 guards bathed us and then they laughed. But we were so

18 weak, and that is why people were falling down. People

19 were beaten up, and they took it out on us.

20 Q. You said that this time they hosed you down

21 occurred between the "white house" and the small red

22 building. Is that the same red building you pointed to

23 earlier where you saw bodies?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, I believe we can

Page 2144

1 pause for a break.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Madam

3 Hollis. We are going to have a half-hour break.

4 --- Recess taken at 12.50 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 1.25 p.m.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be

7 seated.

8 Ms. Hollis, please proceed.

9 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Sir, in your testimony you've already given,

11 you indicated that in the beginning people would

12 volunteer to be interrogated and then after some time

13 they stopped volunteering to be interrogated. Now,

14 initially why would people volunteer to be

15 interrogated, if you know?

16 A. As far as I know, there were no beatings and

17 some people were in fact returned home, and that's why

18 we hoped they would establish that we had no guilt and

19 they would send us home. However, later when the

20 beating started, we all avoided going for

21 interrogation.

22 Q. How long had you been in the camp when the

23 beatings started?

24 A. I can say something like 10 or 15 days.

25 Q. Now, when did the interrogations begin in the

Page 2145

1 camps?

2 A. Immediately after we arrived at the camp, I

3 think it was a Monday, they came in a small minibus in

4 the morning, and then they stayed all day.

5 Q. During the time you were at the camp, what

6 differences in treatment of the detainees, if any, did

7 you notice between the time the interrogators were in

8 the camp and the periods of time that they were not in

9 the camp?

10 A. There was a difference. At least I at the

11 pista didn't notice anyone being beaten, but later on

12 when they went upstairs they were beaten. We on the

13 pista were not beaten so badly. While the

14 investigators were there, there was not so much

15 mistreatment.

16 Q. So what period of the day did most of the

17 mistreatment occur, based on your observations?

18 A. I went for interrogation. And then if

19 something happened, if somebody got killed at the front

20 and they were angry, then they would beat, and also

21 when we went for food they beat us en masse. These

22 beatings occurred then. When we went for food, then

23 they would beat us.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Could we ask the witness to

25 speak closer to the microphone, please.

Page 2146


2 Q. Could you please try to move up closer to the

3 microphone, and if you could try to speak slowly and

4 very clearly. Thank you.

5 When did you first get food after you arrived

6 at Omarska?

7 A. I got food for the first time on the third or

8 fourth day. Once when my turn came, the food ran out.

9 So it wasn't until my third or fourth day that I got

10 some food for the first time, a piece of bread and some

11 liquid soup with some cabbage inside and some beans.

12 There were 30 in a group, and we had to go

13 and get our meal and come back as quickly as possible.

14 We had to run back. There were cases later, if the

15 first man didn't take his proper seat at the table, we

16 had to go back as quickly as possible. The time given

17 was very short, so I can't tell you exactly when this

18 was.

19 Q. Now, these beatings that people received when

20 they went to get their meals, when did those beatings

21 begin? How long had you been in the camp?

22 A. I can't remember exactly but they started

23 early on. Not at the very first, but later on. I

24 can't tell you how many days went by. I can't remember

25 when the beatings started.

Page 2147

1 Q. Now, when you went for meals, was this during

2 daylight hours or was it at night?

3 A. During the day. It depended when the pista

4 group came. People came from the hangar, from Mujo's

5 room. Sometimes it happened at 4.00 in the afternoon.

6 So it depended. There wasn't a fixed time for meals;

7 it depended on the order of the groups and when your

8 turn came.

9 Q. Now, you have testified about being very

10 badly beaten and being in very poor physical

11 condition. When did your beatings begin? When did you

12 first begin to get beaten?

13 A. My beating started -- when you pass through

14 the corridor, a guard might hit you, give you a blow or

15 two, but that was not so important. The worst period

16 for me was after the interrogation. Whether it was

17 this Drazenko Predojevic who said, "You went to fight.

18 You have those boots on your feet," and whether it was

19 because of that, that was when I was beaten so badly.

20 But before that it wasn't so important.

21 Q. Now, you said that your beatings started when

22 you would pass through the corridor. You would pass

23 through the corridor going where?

24 A. When we ran along the corridor to go into the

25 restaurant, to get our meals.

Page 2148

1 Q. How long had you been in the camp when you

2 first began to get those beatings?

3 A. I just said, 10 or 15 days later. I don't

4 know exactly how much time I had spent in the camp when

5 those beatings started.

6 Q. Now, you've testified about the beating you

7 received when you were interrogated, and after that you

8 testified that you were on the pista and "he" beat you

9 and did things to you. This beating you're talking

10 about on the pista after you were interrogated, who did

11 that?

12 A. I later learnt that his name was Drazenko

13 Predojevic, and I always avoided him when he was on

14 duty. He would hit me whenever he saw me, with a stick

15 or whatever. And once when I came from the hangar, I

16 didn't manage to get a place next to the wall because I

17 always tried to be as close to the wall as possible so

18 I wouldn't be so visible. On that day I was closer to

19 him and he recognised me. He hit me unexpectedly with

20 his rifle butt, or rifle, I don't know. He hit me a

21 couple of times and then he left, and then I lost all

22 my teeth. So I avoided him as much as I could whenever

23 he was around; I laid down so he wouldn't see me. And

24 whenever he was on duty, I never went for my meals.

25 Q. Now, you also testified that in the hangar

Page 2149

1 you passed out and you were taken to Mujo's room and

2 that you were in very bad physical condition. How long

3 were you in Mujo's room before you were able to leave

4 that room to go for food?

5 A. I was between five and ten days. I got this

6 infusion, and then the guards would allow some food to

7 be brought to those people who couldn't go for their

8 meals. So I don't know exactly how long it was before

9 I was able to go for meals.

10 Q. You testified about getting this infusion

11 from a detainee who was a doctor. Other than this

12 care, did you receive any medical care for the injuries

13 you received in Omarska while you were in the camp?

14 A. No, no medical care, except for that

15 infusion, in that case. Especially later on, I avoided

16 appearing and people seeing me. I didn't ask for any

17 assistance, and I didn't get any medical care, except

18 for that drip given by the doctor.

19 Q. Now, you testified about seeing other people

20 who were abused. Did you ever observe any of them

21 receiving medical care while they were in the camp?

22 A. I personally did not see anyone receiving

23 medical care. Possibly somebody did get it but I

24 didn't see it. I didn't get any.

25 Q. You testified that on one occasion you were

Page 2150

1 in the "white house" and you saw dead bodies behind the

2 "white house" from the room that you were in. The

3 room that you were in in the "white house," what did

4 you observe about that room?

5 A. That day, it was daytime, it suddenly started

6 raining, I think, and I had to enter the "white

7 house." I was afraid. The first room was for the

8 wounded or something, and there was only one man

9 there. Then straight ahead was the toilet. I went to

10 the right, the last room on the right, and when I

11 entered it was covered in blood, the walls and the

12 window.

13 Q. You have testified that you never saw Kvocka

14 engage in any physical abuse of prisoners. During the

15 time that you were detained in Omarska, do you recall

16 ever seeing him present when detainees were called out

17 and abused?

18 A. I remember one time I was at the pista --

19 Q. Before you explain what you saw, sir, let me

20 ask you just a couple of preliminary questions, if I

21 may.

22 Now, you've indicated you were at the pista

23 when this incident occurred. What time of the day or

24 night was it, if you recall?

25 A. I think it was 5.00 or 6.00 at night. It was

Page 2151

1 still daylight because it was summer. So it was in the

2 afternoon. I didn't have a watch, but as far as I can

3 recollect, it was around that time.

4 Q. At this time, do you have any recollection of

5 how long you had been in the camp when this incident

6 occurred?

7 A. Maybe some 20 days, more or less. I'm not

8 100 per cent sure, but about that time.

9 Q. Now, if you would tell the Court about this

10 incident, and start with what you first saw or heard

11 that captured your attention and then if you would very

12 slowly and clearly tell the Court what you observed.

13 A. We were sitting on the pista. No one was

14 being mistreated. And I saw Kvocka talking in front of

15 the restaurant. Then I heard a voice, people being

16 called out. I saw a man whom I don't know. He was

17 calling out names, "Asaf, Kiki, Rezak, Began." I

18 didn't even see that man well, nor do I know him or

19 remember him. And when I saw him coming up, Kvocka

20 turned around and went in the opposite direction in

21 relation to the man who was approaching.

22 After a short time, we were ordered to lie

23 down on the pista, to lie on our stomachs. And I

24 noticed, I don't know how, I saw Kiki going to the

25 "white house." I didn't see anyone else then. I

Page 2152

1 heard the noise made by guards going there, but I only

2 saw Kiki.

3 Q. Now, before you go on from there, if I could

4 ask you some questions. This man who was calling out

5 these names, you said, "Kiki, Rezak, and Began," how

6 loudly was this man calling out these names?

7 A. Very loudly, too loudly, so we heard those

8 names very well. He was yelling those names out. And

9 I seem to remember hearing "Kikica, Zigica needs you."

10 We knew that something was about to happen whenever

11 there was a call-out of names.

12 I was looking towards the restaurant, and at

13 that moment Kvocka was leaving. I didn't see anything

14 else because we were ordered to lie down face down, and

15 I didn't see anything else.

16 Q. Now, Kiki, did you know a man named Kiki

17 before you came to the camp?

18 A. Yes, I did know him because he had a

19 barbershop, and that is how I knew him. I would go and

20 visit him for his services but I didn't know him as a

21 friend. I would just go and have a haircut or ...

22 Q. Where did he have this barbershop? In what

23 town?

24 A. In Prijedor, in the centre.

25 Q. Did you know him by any other name?

Page 2153

1 A. No.

2 Q. Now, you said that you were told to lie down

3 on your stomachs and you saw Kiki going toward the

4 "white house." Is this the Kiki that you're referring

5 to, the man who had the barbershop?

6 A. Yes, that is the Kiki I was referring to.

7 Q. Did you know a man called Began before coming

8 to the camp?

9 A. I did because he had a coffee bar. I would

10 drop by after work, have a beer or something. We also

11 were not friends. I don't know whether he knew me in

12 person, but I knew him because he owned this cafe and I

13 would visit it, and that is how I knew him from

14 before.

15 Q. Did you know Began by any name other than

16 "Began"?

17 A. No. I just know him under the name Began.

18 Q. Did you know a man by the name of (redacted)

19 before you came to the camp?

20 A. I knew him a little better because he was

21 involved with music, and we used to play table tennis

22 often. He would come to our club. I would pass by his

23 house when I went to work, and I knew his name and

24 surname, (redacted). I would pass by his house on

25 the way to work, and he would come to the local

Page 2154

1 community offices where we played table tennis often.

2 Q. You said that you were on your stomach, you

3 saw Kiki going towards the "white house" and that you

4 heard noise from guards. What did you hear?

5 A. I heard noise, screams, moans. That's what I

6 heard. These were terrible screams. How many men

7 there were inside, I don't know. Who was there, I

8 really don't know. But I just heard those screams.

9 After a short while I saw Kiki going back.

10 Again I saw only him. He was all bloodied. Where he

11 went, as far as I could see, he went towards the

12 restaurant. But we were lying face down and no one

13 dared move. If anybody moved, he would get hit.

14 Q. Now, this noise, these screams, and these

15 moans that you heard, where did this noise, screams,

16 and moans seem to be coming from?

17 A. They were coming from the "white house."

18 Q. And how loud was this noise and screams and

19 moans that you heard?

20 A. I was more or less in the middle of the

21 pista. I was always near the wall. And those screams

22 were so loud that we heard them well. And after all,

23 that's not so close, but yet we could hear those

24 screams and moans.

25 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honours, at this time I

Page 2155

1 have marked an exhibit 3/83. It is a photograph of the

2 portion of the restaurant/administration building that

3 faces onto the pista and toward the hangar. And I

4 would ask that copies be distributed, the Defence

5 should have copies already, and that the witness be

6 provided the exhibit to look at the exhibit. I would

7 also ask that the witness be given a pen and that this

8 photograph be put on the ELMO.

9 Q. Now, sir, if you would look at this

10 photograph and if you would mark with an "X" where you

11 first saw this person who was calling out these names.

12 Where you first saw him, if you would mark that with an

13 "X".

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Now, I would ask that you mark with an "X1"

16 where this person was when you last saw him.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Now, sir, I would ask that you mark with a

19 "KV" where Kvocka was when you first saw him.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. And I would ask that you mark with a "KV1"

22 where Kvocka was when you last saw him.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Now, as we look at this exhibit which you

25 have marked, at one point you have "KV" and "X1" very

Page 2156

1 close to each other. As you observed this incident,

2 Kvocka and the man calling out the names, did you ever

3 see them standing this close to each other?

4 A. No, I didn't see it.

5 Q. Did you ever see them speak to each other?

6 A. No, I didn't see them speak to each other.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MS. HOLLIS: If that exhibit could be

9 removed, please.

10 Q. Now, you have also testified about the shift

11 leader known to you as Krle and you indicated that

12 there was an incident that you observed that involved

13 Krle.

14 At this point I would like for you to tell

15 the Court about this incident which involved Krle, and

16 again I would like you to speak very slowly and very

17 clearly and begin with what first captured your

18 attention and then tell the Court what you observed.

19 A. At that time we were sitting on the pista, as

20 usual, and a man got up and started walking up and down

21 on the pista. And Krle shouted, "Sit down. Go back to

22 your place," but the man didn't do what he was told.

23 He continued walking up and down. Krle shouted, "Go

24 back," so it was normal that we were looking in that

25 direction. Krle took him and led him in the direction

Page 2157

1 of the "white house."

2 After a short time Krle came back because

3 they were about to have a change of shift. After a

4 short time I heard a burst of fire, and the normal

5 reaction was to look in the direction of the fire. And

6 we looked towards the "white house." That man jumped

7 up, of fear or what, and then again I hear the voice

8 say, "Stop," and when I looked around who the voice

9 belonged to, it was Krle's. He was saying, "Stop," and

10 he -- it was Krle, and he went towards him and fired.

11 I don't know the man's name. He fell on the grass.

12 And we were ordered to lie face down, and after that I

13 don't know what happened. That is what I saw.

14 Q. Now, when the man was led toward the "white

15 house," and then the next thing that caught your

16 attention was that you heard a burst of fire coming

17 from the "white house"; is that correct?

18 A. From the direction of the "white house," yes,

19 but it was like the shattering of glass. And I turned

20 around and saw Krle coming towards us along the grass,

21 towards the pista.

22 Q. So when you heard the shattering of glass,

23 where did you look?

24 A. In that direction where the noise had come

25 from, and it was from the "white house" and that is

Page 2158

1 where I turned to look.

2 Q. When you looked toward the "white house,"

3 what did you see?

4 A. After a short while I saw this man walking

5 towards us along the grass. He seemed to be not all

6 there, out of fear or what. And then Krle was saying,

7 "Stop. Wait." The man didn't. Krle went up to him

8 and fired. That was the first time I saw a man killed,

9 and that is something that has stuck in my mind all

10 this time.

11 Q. Now, this man that you saw walking toward you

12 along the grass, was this the same man that you had

13 seen taken toward the "white house" earlier?

14 A. Yes, it is the same man. He must have sort

15 of been a bit crazy. His nerves had given in or

16 something.

17 Q. When you heard someone calling out "Stop,"

18 where did you look?

19 A. In the direction of the restaurant, because

20 that is where the voice came from. Before that he had

21 been taken away. So I saw Krle shouting "Stop" and

22 going towards this man, this man didn't stop, and Krle

23 opened fire.

24 Q. Now, when you saw Krle shouting "Stop," going

25 toward the man and then firing, did you see any guards

Page 2159

1 in the area?

2 A. There were guards around him, but I saw that

3 Krle had a gun. There were some guards around him. I

4 can't remember whether anyone was following him. But

5 at that moment I saw Krle, and they were expecting a

6 change of shift and they were standing there. And I

7 saw Krle approach this man and fire.

8 Q. Do you recall how long you had been in the

9 camp when this incident occurred?

10 A. The incident -- the incident, as far as I can

11 recollect, occurred, I think, a month after I arrived

12 and more. I think Kvocka had been replaced by Meakic.

13 I think Kvocka had already left by then.

14 Q. Now, after you left Omarska camp, after that

15 time, did you ever see the man you knew as Krkan either

16 in person or on television?

17 A. I did see Krkan in a television programme.

18 Q. Do you recall what that television programme

19 was about, why Krkan was on that programme?

20 A. It was something but in a language I didn't

21 understand. I just recognised the camp, or the part of

22 the camp that was being shown. But what exactly the

23 programme was about, I don't know.

24 Q. Do you recall being interviewed in 1998 by an

25 investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor?

Page 2160

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. At that time do you recall being shown three

3 different sets of photographs?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. For each of those sets of photographs, do you

6 recall having a procedure read to you in a language you

7 understood?

8 A. Yes, I remember.

9 Q. Do you recall signing the written notice of

10 those procedures?

11 A. Yes, I remember signing it.

12 Q. Now, do you recall that as regards one set of

13 photographs, you told the investigator that you did not

14 recognise anyone?

15 A. Yes, I remember that.

16 Q. As to the other two sets of photographs, do

17 you recall telling the investigator that you did

18 recognise someone on each of those sets?

19 A. Yes, I remember that I recognised two

20 persons.

21 Q. Who were the persons that you recognised?

22 A. On one set I recognised Kvocka and in the

23 other set I recognised Krle.

24 Q. This Kvocka that you recognised on this set,

25 was this the Kvocka who introduced himself and said he

Page 2161

1 was responsible for you?

2 A. Yes, that is the same person.

3 Q. Is this the same Kvocka who was present when

4 you testified you heard Kiki and the others called out?

5 A. Yes, it is the same person. Kvocka, I saw

6 him then as he was leaving, when Kiki was being called

7 out.

8 Q. As to Krle, was this the Krle you knew in the

9 camp to be one of the shift commanders?

10 A. Yes, it is Krle that I knew as a shift

11 commander.

12 Q. Was it this same Krle you have just testified

13 you saw shout "Stop" and shoot his weapon at a

14 detainee?

15 A. Yes, it is the same person that I recognised,

16 who said "Stop" and who shot at the prisoner.

17 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honours, at this time the

18 Prosecution would mark as an exhibit the exhibit next

19 in line, which is 3/84, 3/84A, 3/84B, 3/84C, and

20 3/84D. The Defence has previously been provided with

21 copies of this, and I have provided the Registry with

22 copies for Your Honours. And if I could have

23 assistance and if the Defence could be shown the photo

24 board so that they know which I'm dealing with. Not

25 the witness but the Defence counsel.

Page 2162

1 Now, if the witness could be provided with

2 84A.

3 Q. Sir, would you look at that and tell me if

4 you recognise your signature on that page.

5 A. Yes, I recognise it. That is my signature.

6 MS. HOLLIS: If the witness could be shown

7 84D, "D," "D" as in Delta, and if that could be put on

8 the ELMO, please. And if you could please ensure that

9 all of those photos are visible on the ELMO. The other

10 way.

11 Q. If you would please point to the person you

12 recognise.

13 A. I know this individual to be Kvocka

14 [indicates], number 4.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MS. HOLLIS: If that could be retrieved,

17 please.

18 Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution

19 would mark as an exhibit 3/85A, 3/85B, 3/85C, 3/85D,

20 and 3/85D1. Again, copies have been provided. If the

21 Defence could be show that first, please. And if the

22 witness could please be shown "A".

23 Q. Does your signature appear on that document?

24 A. Yes, it does. That is my signature.

25 MS. HOLLIS: If the witness could be shown D

Page 2163

1 and D1, please. And then if those could be put on the

2 overhead, please.

3 Q. Would you please point to the person you

4 recognised on that photo array.

5 A. I recognised this man under number 4

6 [indicates]. He was shift leader Krle.

7 Q. Would you look on the back of those

8 photographs, please. Does your signature appear on the

9 back of those photographs?

10 A. Yes, it does appear on the back, my

11 signature, on these photographs. And under number 4, I

12 recognised the person.

13 MS. HOLLIS: If D of 84 could also be

14 provided to the witness again. Is that the original?

15 Q. Would you look and see if your signature

16 appears on the back of that as well.

17 A. Yes, it appears on the back, my signature.

18 MS. HOLLIS: If that could be retrieved,

19 please.

20 Q. Sir, when you were taken from Omarska camp,

21 where were you taken?

22 A. I was taken from Omarska to Trnopolje.

23 Q. Now, you have testified to the Judges about

24 the beatings and the conditions, as far as you were

25 concerned, in Omarska camp. When you left Omarska

Page 2164

1 camp, what was your physical condition?

2 A. I had lost about 20 kilos, between 15 and 20

3 kilograms. I don't know exactly. My state of health

4 was terrible; I was ill. And that's how I arrived in

5 Trnopolje, alive.

6 Q. When you went to Omarska camp, how much did

7 you weigh?

8 A. Before I was 70, 72 kilograms. My weight

9 was about 70 kilograms.

10 Q. And when you left Omarska camp, if you know,

11 how much did you weigh?

12 A. Afterwards, when I came home from Trnopolje,

13 I weighed 55, 54 kilograms. I now have 59 kilos, and

14 I find it difficult to regain my former weight, the

15 weight that I had before I went to the camp.

16 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, we need to conclude

17 this in private session, if we could.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. We

19 shall be going into private session.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2165













13 pages 2165-2174 redacted private session









22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

23 2.25 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

24 the 18th day of May, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.