Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2310

1 Friday, 19 May 2000

2 [Private session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.43 a.m.

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Page 2316

1 [Open session]

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see that

3 we're already in public session.

4 You may continue, Mr. Keegan.

5 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. And what happened on that day, the 24th of

7 May? How did the attack start?

8 A. Well, quite simply, the shelling of Kozarac

9 began.

10 Q. And what area of Kozarac were you in at the

11 time?

12 A. (redacted)

13 (redacted) because I was off duty that day

14 Q. And can you describe what the attack was

15 like, what that was like when the shelling started?

16 A. Strictly speaking, in Rajkovici you couldn't

17 see anything really, except you could hear it. You

18 could hear explosions, shells exploding. Because

19 Rajkovici is part of the surrounding hillside, so you

20 couldn't really see the attack on Kozarac itself or

21 some targets that were hit.

22 Q. Did you go out to an area to try and observe

23 some of the shelling yourself?

24 A. Yes. I was at a place where you could see

25 from the Kotlovaca area and the hill called Denovica

Page 2317

1 [phoen], where our fields are, and I was in that area

2 and I was able to see a settlement towards Kozarac, and

3 that is what we called Dera.

4 MR. KEEGAN: Could the witness be provided

5 what's been marked as Exhibit 3/88A, B, and C, three

6 photos of the house.

7 Q. Witness B, could you look at those three

8 photos, please, and indicate whether or not you

9 recognise them.

10 A. Yes, I recognise them. (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 Q. And the other two photos?

13 A. My house before the war and my house after

14 the war, when it was destroyed.

15 MR. KEEGAN: Could the first photo be put on

16 the ELMO, please.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps we

18 should switch the ELMO on, Mr. Usher. We're not

19 getting any picture over. Yes, we have it now. Thank

20 you.

21 MR. KEEGAN: I recognise that the glare

22 appears to be pretty bad on that. I don't know if we

23 can adjust the mirror angle or something. I think it

24 will be generally sufficient, because everyone has

25 copies of the actual photo.

Page 2318

1 Q. Witness B, could you point to the area on the

2 hill where you said that you were and from which you

3 could observe the shelling?

4 A. Up here [indicates].

5 Q. Thank you. And from that location, you

6 indicated that you could see to the hamlet in the area

7 of Dera; is that correct?

8 A. Yes. It's the road towards Kozarac, and the

9 houses along that road.

10 Q. When you were on the hill looking towards

11 Dera, could you tell what type of structures were being

12 targeted by the shelling, what was being hit?

13 A. They were privately owned houses.

14 Q. Did you know the people who lived in those

15 houses?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And what was the ethnic group of those

18 people?

19 A. Muslims.

20 Q. During the time that you were observing the

21 shells hitting that village, did you observe any fire

22 coming from the village, or return fire from the

23 village?

24 A. No.

25 Q. What did the people who lived in your area do

Page 2319

1 during the shelling?

2 A. They came to two shelters. One of those

3 shelters was underneath the veranda of my own house and

4 the other one was opposite the road at my uncle's place

5 in the cellar there.

6 Q. And when you referred to shelters, are you

7 referring to cellars under the house?

8 A. Yes, cellars underneath the house.

9 Q. At that time were there any armed soldiers or

10 was there any fighting or return fire coming from your

11 village?

12 A. No.

13 Q. What happened the following day?

14 A. The next day we were already informed that as

15 a group, and in a column, under a white flag or a white

16 sheet, we needed to go towards Kozarac and abandon

17 their homes, which they did.

18 Q. And how were you informed? How did you

19 receive those instructions?

20 A. There were people who were listening to the

21 news on a transistor radio, or a small radio which

22 worked on batteries. And then they passed on this news

23 that there would be no shelling, that there would be no

24 problems, that people should move peacefully and in an

25 orderly fashion.

Page 2320

1 Q. Were these instructions broadcast over the

2 civilian radio?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did your family follow those instructions?

5 A. We didn't have a transistor radio.

6 Q. I meant once you were advised by your

7 neighbours, did you follow the instructions? Did you

8 get in a column and move down towards Kozarac?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. About how many people were in your group, do

11 you recall?

12 A. Between 50 and 100. I don't know exactly. I

13 didn't really pay attention.

14 Q. As your group was moving down towards

15 Kozarac, what did you see along the way?

16 A. As we were leaving my village, there was a

17 pool of blood on the road where they said that a man

18 had been killed. Then as we entered Kozarac itself,

19 near the city mosque, there were also two or three

20 pools of blood, not really pools but blots, and they

21 said that a column of inhabitants from Brdjani had been

22 shelled there.

23 Q. And what about the homes and buildings along

24 the way? What state were they in?

25 A. They were destroyed. Some were still

Page 2321

1 burning. The smoke was coming out, with just the

2 outside charred walls standing. It was a terrible

3 sight.

4 Q. Did you know the people who lived in those

5 homes that you saw along the way that were destroyed?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And what ethnic group were those people?

8 A. Muslims.

9 Q. Did you see any soldiers, any Serbian forces,

10 along the way as you went from the area where you lived

11 down towards Kozarac?

12 A. No.

13 MR. KEEGAN: Could the witness be provided

14 with Exhibit 376, please. That's the map.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan,

16 I think it is Exhibit 3/76. I see on the transcript

17 "Exhibit 376."

18 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. I'm told I

19 may have given the wrong number. I'm looking for the

20 map of the Prijedor area.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Is it 3/77?

22 MR. KEEGAN: Could be. No. It's a map about

23 this big of the Prijedor area. 1/26. I have a copy.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. 3/76.

25 MR. KEEGAN: I was right about that. Sorry.

Page 2322

1 Exhibit 1/26. It was marked incorrectly. I apologise,

2 Your Honour. We need the top half of the map, please.

3 Q. Witness B, could you please locate on the map

4 the area in which your village is? No, no. You can

5 remain seated. Just point, please.

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2323

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 Q. What happened when the column that you were

7 in reached Kozarac?

8 A. That is where we had the first encounter with

9 the military. That is where they were waiting for us.

10 Q. And when you say you had an encounter with

11 the military, they were waiting for you, can you

12 describe that, please?

13 A. Those soldiers were stationed in a building

14 where the TO of the Kozarac local community used to be

15 housed. A flag was hoisted, the three-colour flag.

16 Nothing else. We had no problems at all. They just

17 let us pass further down towards the elementary school,

18 where we waited as the other columns from the

19 surroundings of Kozarac arrived.

20 Q. What happened then while you were waiting at

21 the elementary school?

22 A. Not in the elementary school, in front of it,

23 on the road. We waited to see where people would be

24 going, because they hadn't told us that we would be

25 going in the direction of Trnopolje. After a few hours

Page 2324

1 of waiting, we headed towards the crossroads of

2 Trnopolje. At that spot, the men were separated from

3 the women and children, and their column went towards

4 Sucici, whereas the women and children stayed behind

5 waiting.

6 Q. What happened to you at that time?

7 A. The military police were there, and they

8 separated me and two other members of the TO of the

9 Kozarac local community. They put us in a military

10 vehicle, the so-called Pynzgauer and took us to

11 Koncari. They asked about our personal data.

12 Then from there we went on to the Prijedor

13 barracks, probably for a checkup, to see who we were

14 and what we had been doing. Then after a brief stay in

15 the barracks, we were returned to the military police

16 checkpoint at Kozarusa, where the commander of the

17 military police was a certain Jovic.

18 After our personal data were taken down once

19 again, we heard an announcement of a radio station

20 where somebody was intervening. He said "by

21 civilians." So they didn't question us any longer but

22 took us back in the same military vehicle to Keraterm,

23 but the drivers who were taking us there made certain

24 provocations. They threatened me, saying what they did

25 to women, that they first have a physical abuse, and

Page 2325

1 after that they kill them. I just said, "Don't talk to

2 me like that. You don't know who I am."

3 I reached Keraterm. I entered the hall.

4 Q. First, when the soldier in the vehicle said

5 to you -- you referred to it, saying what they do to

6 women, that they have a physical abuse. Could you

7 please describe for the Judges; what term did he

8 actually use?

9 A. I apologise, but I have to say the same

10 words. "What we do with women like you is," and I

11 apologise again, "we first fuck them and then we kill

12 them so that there should be no witnesses." I don't

13 know the driver.

14 Q. Witness B, during all of this time, from the

15 time that you were picked up in the military police

16 vehicle and you went to these various military

17 stations, what, if any, calls did you hear on the

18 military radios about ongoing fighting or resistance,

19 military resistance, in the Kozarac area?

20 A. No.

21 Q. What, if any, signs from the Serbian forces

22 did you see to indicate that there were ongoing battles

23 or resistance? In other words, how were the soldiers

24 acting?

25 A. It was quiet. At the time there was no

Page 2326

1 shelling or anything. They were a bit tipsy, all of

2 them, at the checkpoint. They behaved in a rather -- I

3 don't know how to put it -- an inappropriate manner for

4 a soldier, especially when on duty.

5 Q. Were the soldiers acting as if they were in

6 combat operations; that is, were they moving tactically

7 or were they acting as if they were simply in charge of

8 the area?

9 A. They behaved as if they were in charge, as

10 if -- they didn't have any tactical or military

11 activities. They behaved as if they were at home.

12 Q. Witness B, what were you wearing on that day

13 when you were arrested?

14 A. Can I show you?

15 Q. Yes, please.

16 A. This same top in which I was arrested, taken

17 away, and which I wore throughout my period in the

18 camps. And unfortunately, the bottom part, I gave it

19 to a friend of mine who went to Manjaca when the

20 Omarska camp was disbanded.

21 MR. KEEGAN: Could the witness please be

22 provided photographs that have been marked, previously

23 been marked, as Exhibits 3/27 and 3/34. Show those to

24 the witness, please.

25 Q. Witness B, do you recognise those

Page 2327

1 photographs?

2 A. Yes. It is Keraterm.

3 Q. Now, when you say "Keraterm," do you mean by

4 that the Keraterm camp?

5 A. Yes. Yes, the buildings we were brought to

6 and where we were for the first day in Keraterm, the

7 camp.

8 Q. Could you please put first the photo that

9 shows the area of the building that you were first

10 taken to onto the ELMO so that she could point it out

11 for the Judges. Could you please point to the area of

12 the camp where you were first taken.

13 A. This is the building, and this is the

14 entrance [indicates]. I went in through this doorway

15 and I waited downstairs in the hall.

16 Q. Was that a reception area for the -- what

17 used to be the factory, Keraterm?

18 A. Yes. It was the Keraterm factory. It was a

19 newly built facility of Keraterm.

20 Q. And when you first arrived at the camp, were

21 there any prisoners on the area outside of the

22 building?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And what happened to you once you were inside

25 the reception area of the building?

Page 2328

1 A. When I entered, somebody came up. I don't

2 know his name. I would be able to recognise him if I

3 saw him. A shortish man, with greyish hair. And he

4 went in front of two other members of the TO. He

5 started with his provocations. He was staring at us,

6 walking around us. "We need little birds like that.

7 You didn't need to do that. Why did you have to do all

8 that?" That kind of thing. Provocative questions and

9 behaviour. It didn't really affect me much. Each time

10 I looked him in the eye, he had to bend his head down,

11 so he just couldn't provoke me. After that I was

12 called in upstairs to one of these offices.

13 Q. And what happened --

14 A. -- and there were three interrogators sitting

15 there. One was asking the questions, another one was

16 taking things down, and a third was listening.

17 Q. Now, did you recognise any of these

18 interrogators?

19 A. I didn't know them from before, but later I

20 learnt that among them was Drago Meakic.

21 Q. Where did you later learn his identity?

22 A. I learnt it in Omarska.

23 Q. Did you see Drago Meakic later in Omarska?

24 A. I don't remember.

25 Q. What type of -- sorry. Please finish.

Page 2329

1 A. He came on a visit, but I would not see him

2 there on a daily basis. I don't remember, no.

3 Q. What type of uniform were the interrogators

4 wearing?

5 A. Mostly they wore camouflage uniforms.

6 Q. And when you say "camouflage uniforms," what

7 colour camouflage?

8 A. They were in different shades. They were not

9 the same. Some were in green tones, others were in

10 blue. So they were not all identical.

11 Q. Did any of the interrogators tell you who

12 they worked for; that is, were they police, were they

13 military, or some other organisation?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did they tell you why you had been arrested?

16 A. No. I still keep wondering why.

17 Q. What type of questions were you asked?

18 A. I don't remember the questions, except that

19 they said I should have been in their ranks -- I don't

20 understand that -- that I should have been on their

21 side. Which side is that, and why was I with the

22 Muslims? It is a nation of the former Yugoslavia, so I

23 can't understand that. And that that nation was

24 against the Serbs, and again I don't know why.

25 Q. Did they tell you what was going to happen to

Page 2330

1 the Muslims?

2 A. They should all be killed.

3 Q. Were you physically mistreated in any way

4 during the interrogation?

5 A. No, not in Prijedor; in Keraterm.

6 Q. Were they taking notes, preparing notes,

7 during this interrogation?

8 A. Yes. Yes. They were writing things down.

9 Q. Were you allowed to read the notes or were

10 you shown the notes after the interrogation?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Were you asked to sign a statement?

13 A. No.

14 Q. When the interrogation was concluded, where

15 were you taken?

16 A. They took me to one of the premises of the

17 warehouse in Keraterm. I think it was number 3.

18 Q. Could you please place that photograph on the

19 ELMO and point to the area for the Judges.

20 A. It is right here, or one of these, anyway.

21 One of these premises [indicates]. There are several

22 entrances, and I was put in one of them.

23 Q. And were there other prisoners already in

24 that room?

25 A. Yes, there were. It was quite full already.

Page 2331

1 They were all men, mostly from Kozarac, among those I

2 knew.

3 Q. And of those you knew, what was their ethnic

4 group?

5 A. They were Muslims, and a couple of Catholics.

6 Q. Were you the only woman in the room?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. During the time that you were in the Keraterm

9 camp, did you see any of the Serbian forces or

10 authorities who you later saw also in the Omarska camp?

11 A. Yes. It was Drago Radakovic, and I noticed,

12 passing, somebody I recognised there as well, and that

13 is Drago Prcac.

14 Q. And where did you see Drago Prcac while you

15 were in Keraterm?

16 A. He just passed by me up the stairs.

17 Q. Were there any other women in the Keraterm

18 camp during the time that you were held there?

19 A. While I was in that room, I didn't know of a

20 single other woman. In the evening, when they told me

21 to go on, that I couldn't stay there with those men,

22 that I should go elsewhere, I came to the same building

23 again; that is to say, I went into the hall again, and

24 there was a woman waiting there. I didn't know her. I

25 didn't know who she was. But she was just waiting

Page 2332

1 there like me.

2 Q. And were you taken out of the Keraterm camp

3 that night?

4 A. Yes. They took me to the police station in

5 Prijedor.

6 Q. And the police station in Prijedor, is that

7 commonly referred to as the SUP?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you learn the name of the -- did the

10 other woman who you saw in the hall waiting, did she go

11 to the police station with you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And did you learn her name?

14 A. Velida Makmuljin.

15 Q. And do you know where she was from?

16 A. From Kozarac.

17 Q. What happened once you arrived at the police

18 station in Prijedor?

19 A. I was again searched to see whether I had

20 anything on me. The person who searched me -- that is

21 to say, I was forced to take my clothes off and remain

22 in my underclothes so that they could check to see

23 whether I had any weapons on me.

24 Q. Who was the person who conducted the search?

25 A. It was a woman. And her name was Miroslava

Page 2333

1 Grahovac.

2 Q. Were you interrogated at the police station

3 in Prijedor?

4 A. No. We were just transferred later on to a

5 separate room where we were supposed to spend the

6 night, and that was the prison.

7 Q. Were you placed in a cell alone, the two

8 women, or were there others in the cell as well?

9 A. Just the two of us.

10 Q. What was the condition of the cell?

11 A. Well, the word "cell" itself speaks for

12 itself. It stank of urine, it was dark, it was

13 stuffy. There were no proper windows, just like a sort

14 of iron bar, and you couldn't get any light through

15 that aperture at all.

16 Q. Were you given any food or water that

17 evening?

18 A. No water, but I think we got a tin of some

19 kind by way of food. I don't think we ate it, but we

20 did not get any water, no.

21 Q. Were you physically mistreated in anyway

22 while you were in the police station or in the cell?

23 A. No, we were not mistreated, but we heard

24 different comments coming from outside. And it wasn't

25 an easy thing. We heard them saying that we ought to

Page 2334

1 be raped and what they were going to do to us, but none

2 of that was done. They were just provocations, verbal

3 ones.

4 Q. What happened the next day?

5 A. The next day they took us out, and one of the

6 policemen, the guards, took us up to the restaurant

7 where we had lunch. We were given a portion of beans.

8 We waited there to see where we were going to be taken

9 after that.

10 Q. And where were you taken after that?

11 A. After that, we went downstairs to the yard,

12 the courtyard of the SUP building, where a police car

13 was waiting for us, and I can say that it was a Black

14 Marija sort of thing.

15 And the driver, one of the policemen who was

16 in charge there, he put us and three men inside and

17 took us over Gomjenica, Tomasica, Grudica, across the

18 hill to Omarska.

19 Q. What happened once you arrived in Omarska?

20 A. When we reached Omarska, we were searched

21 again in the same way, that is to say, a little

22 differently. We stood up against a wall and had to

23 raise our hands up with three fingers pressing against

24 the wall, and we had to stand astride so that they

25 could feel us up our legs to see if we had any weapons,

Page 2335

1 that kind of thing.

2 Q. Who was present from the camp staff when you

3 arrived at the Omarska camp?

4 A. There was Zeljko Meakic, and at that

5 particular moment, some people were coming out of the

6 building; that is to say, they were the interrogators.

7 I recognised Dragan Radakovic as being one of them.

8 Q. Now, was anything said specifically to you

9 and Velida Mahmuljin when you arrived at the camp?

10 A. I don't know whether it was a surprise for

11 them to see women arriving, but I just heard them say,

12 "What are we going to do with these two whores? Why

13 are they here? We ought to kill them." Something

14 along those lines.

15 Q. Do you know who said that?

16 A. I think it was Zeljko, Zeljko's expression.

17 Q. And Zeljko's last name?

18 A. Meakic, Zeljko Meakic.

19 Q. Did you later learn what -- what did they do

20 with you after you arrived at Omarska camp, you and

21 Velida?

22 A. Well, we waited downstairs again for a time

23 at the entrance to that administrative building, and

24 afterwards, we were taken off again in a Mercedes to

25 the police station in Omarska.

Page 2336

1 Q. Do you recall who accompanied you in the

2 Mercedes to the Omarska police station?

3 A. There was the driver, and Zeljko Meakic was

4 with us.

5 Q. What happened once you were at the Omarska

6 police station?

7 A. Zeljko took our particulars down there. We

8 said who we were and everything else, and he wrote that

9 down in the black book.

10 Q. What type of questions did he ask you?

11 A. He asked what our names were, our date of

12 birth, where we lived, what nationalist party we

13 belonged to, and why we were there.

14 Q. Were you physically maltreated in any way

15 during the interrogation?

16 A. No.

17 Q. To your knowledge, was Velida physically

18 maltreated during her interrogation?

19 A. In Omarska, at the police station, no, she

20 wasn't.

21 Q. Were you ever informed, while you were at the

22 Omarska police station, why you had been arrested?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Where did you spend that night?

25 A. In the cell in the prison. Zeljko asked

Page 2337

1 whether we would like to stay in one of those -- in one

2 of their offices or would we like a separate room, but

3 I, for one, didn't know what "a separate room" meant

4 and what it referred to, and Velida didn't either. He

5 said "a separate room." So once again we were

6 transferred to the prison and that cell there.

7 Q. And that cell was in the Omarska police

8 station itself?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you receive any food or water that

11 evening?

12 A. I don't remember. No.

13 Q. Were you physically maltreated during the

14 evening?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And what happened the next morning?

17 A. The next morning, when they opened the cell

18 door, it was sunny. It was a fine day. We stepped out

19 of the darkness, and I found it hard to see because the

20 glare of the sun was in my eyes. Then one of them,

21 whether he was a soldier, a policeman, or someone like

22 that, he hit me with his rifle butt here [indicates],

23 and Zeljko reacted and said, "Don't beat her," and

24 cursed them, swore at them. He said, "Take them into

25 the car." We went into the same Mercedes and went off

Page 2338

1 to the camp again.

2 Q. What happened on your return to the Omarska

3 camp?

4 A. We waited there at the entrance again, in a

5 room where there was some lockers for clothing. That's

6 where we waited to be interrogated or whatever. I

7 don't really know.

8 Q. Were you taken for interrogation at that

9 time?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Was Velida taken for interrogation?

12 A. Velida was, yes.

13 Q. When Velida came back from interrogation,

14 what did you notice?

15 A. I noticed that she was frightened. She had

16 signs of physical abuse; that is to say, she had a

17 bruise on her forehead which she skilfully hid with a

18 lock of hair. She was red all down here in the lower

19 part of her face. What happened to her, I don't know.

20 When I saw her I said, "What happened to you?" She

21 just looked at me and started crying and didn't say

22 anything, which means she was physically abused.

23 Q. During those first few days that you were in

24 Omarska, where were you held?

25 A. We were in one of the offices, one of the

Page 2339

1 rooms on the first floor of the administration

2 building.

3 Q. Did you spend both day and night in that room

4 on the first floor or were you moved somewhere else

5 during the day?

6 A. No. At night we were in that room, but in

7 the morning, at 7.00, we had to go downstairs to the

8 restaurant, the catering -- the canteen, and we would

9 have a table and chairs. So when you go inside the

10 restaurant, this was to the left.

11 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honours, if I could beg

12 your indulgence. I intend to have the witness only

13 refer to all the areas that are relevant to her

14 testimony on the model at one time, because it will

15 have to be in closed session so that she can get up and

16 move around. So she will fully describe these areas

17 but later in the testimony.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think

19 that we'll have an easier solution, and that is to have

20 a longer pointer perhaps. Then the witness could use

21 that longer pointer and point from where she's

22 sitting. That would -- she wouldn't have to get up and

23 lose her protective measures.

24 So we're now going to go into private session

25 so that the witness can approach the model and point to

Page 2340

1 what she has to point to. Let's go into private

2 session then.

3 I beg your pardon, Mr. Keegan?

4 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, I was actually

5 going to wait and do it near the end when she's

6 discussed all of the relevant areas and then she can

7 just do it all at once.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I

9 think that's a good idea, but perhaps we could prepare

10 this, because the registrar has lots of things at his

11 disposal. Perhaps we could get a longer pointer with

12 which the witness could point to the model, but I think

13 your suggestion is a good one, yes.

14 MR. KEEGAN: We'll check on the break if that

15 can be arranged.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we're

17 continuing in public session. Thank you, Mr. Keegan.

18 Please go ahead.


20 Q. Witness B, you described that you spent the

21 days, when you first arrived at the camp, in the

22 restaurant area.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. At that time, could you see where other

25 prisoners in the camp were being held?

Page 2341

1 A. Not at the beginning, because they were taken

2 off straight away to other rooms where they were shut

3 up and they didn't go out of them, but I could just see

4 them coming to lunch in columns. But where they all

5 were, I was not able to see.

6 Q. How long were you in the camp before you

7 began to serve food to the prisoners?

8 A. Well, perhaps 15 to 20 days.

9 Q. And prior to that time, who served food to

10 the prisoners?

11 A. The food came ready-prepared from the

12 kitchens probably. They prepared the food. But the

13 meals would arrive already cooked.

14 Q. And for the first 10 to 15 days, who served

15 the meals?

16 A. There were three men who had the duty of

17 serving the meals.

18 Q. After that first period, once you began

19 serving meals to the prisoners, did you continue to

20 work in the restaurant the entire time that you were in

21 the camp.

22 A. Yes, except when there would be a visit of

23 some kind, towards the end when the journalists

24 arrived, and then the women didn't show themselves and

25 it was the men who served the meals again.

Page 2342

1 Q. You say the women didn't show themselves. By

2 that do you mean you voluntarily stayed in a room

3 someplace?

4 A. No. We had to be elsewhere. We were not

5 able to -- they didn't allow us to show ourselves.

6 They didn't want people to know that women were there,

7 because they kept denying that there were any women at

8 all in Omarska.

9 Q. Do you know how the food was delivered to the

10 camp?

11 A. It would be brought in -- I don't know -- in

12 some kind of vehicle. It would arrive at about 9.00

13 and would be distributed until late in the afternoon,

14 3.00 or 4.00, 5.00 p.m. perhaps, depending.

15 Q. Was food brought for both the guards in the

16 camp and the prisoners?

17 A. It wasn't the same.

18 Q. What was the difference between the food for

19 the prisoners and the food for the guards?

20 A. Well, I had occasion to try that food too,

21 thanks to, once again I say, some good people among

22 them. There were some good people, and so on several

23 occasions us women received that other food. They

24 offered us some. They asked us whether we were hungry,

25 and they gave us this food, their food. And the food

Page 2343

1 that the prisoners were given, there was a drastic

2 difference between that food.

3 Q. Can you please describe what was the daily

4 meal for the prisoners.

5 A. At the beginning, the daily meal was far

6 better than it was later on, in the latter period, when

7 it was terrible. It was -- there was no salt in it, no

8 spices or anything like that. What can I say? I can

9 tell you that it was all without any salt at all in it,

10 so you can image the taste it had.

11 Q. During the first period, then, what was the

12 type of meal that a prisoner would get each day? What

13 did it consist of?

14 A. At the beginning there were beans. There

15 were enough beans. It was a consistent bean stew. And

16 there was rice, and they put some meat in as well. It

17 was a far better quality than it was towards the end.

18 And when I asked, "What's this you're giving us now,"

19 well, they said, "We haven't got enough to eat either,

20 and that's what we're giving you."

21 Q. Now, this first meal you're describing, you

22 say there were enough beans, it was a consistent bean

23 stew, and then you talk about rice and some meat. Were

24 those separate courses, or are they all in one soup or

25 stew?

Page 2344

1 A. It was separate. Each time they tried to

2 give us a different -- different things to eat, so it

3 was different food. It was on different occasions.

4 Q. So one day it would be bean -- soup with

5 beans in it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And on another day the soup would have rice

8 in it; is that what you're saying?

9 A. Yes. Or it would be cabbage or something

10 else like that.

11 Q. Did they also receive bread with this soup

12 each day?

13 A. Yes. At the beginning they would get a

14 quarter of a loaf, and afterwards an eighth of a loaf.

15 But for a very short period of time were we given this

16 quarter loaf.

17 Q. When you say "a very short period of time,"

18 how many days are you talking?

19 A. I can't answer that question. I don't know.

20 The conditions were such that you couldn't really take

21 note of all these details. It wasn't important for

22 us. We just kept thinking why we were there and how we

23 could get out, so we didn't pay attention to details of

24 that kind.

25 Q. Now, you say that the food then got worse.

Page 2345

1 How was it worse? What was it like?

2 A. Well, it was more rarefied, more liquidy, not

3 as many spices. They didn't put any salt into this to

4 give it taste. It was awful, and you could see the

5 effects of it on us prisoners.

6 Q. Was the food for the prisoners, that is, the

7 vegetables that were in the broth and the water, were

8 they always of fresh quality or were they spoiled

9 vegetables on occasion?

10 A. For the prisoners, well, very often the beans

11 would be sour already because of the hot weather, and

12 they would bring the same food back and distribute it

13 again, and the beans had gone off. And very often you

14 would sense this smell. And they gave this to people,

15 and people would get dysentery and have stomach

16 problems afterwards.

17 Q. Were prisoners given adequate time to eat

18 their meals?

19 A. No. It was a very short period of time that

20 we were given.

21 Q. Was there always enough food for all of the

22 prisoners?

23 A. No. Many of them -- no. Many of them would

24 remain hungry. There wasn't enough for them. Many of

25 them didn't even dare come to eat.

Page 2346

1 Q. Why wouldn't they dare come to eat?

2 A. Because of the beating in coming and leaving

3 that restaurant.

4 Q. Were the prisoners given anything to drink

5 with their meals?

6 A. They received water in the latter part.

7 Q. Now, you say when they received water in the

8 latter part, you mean they got cups or glasses of water

9 with their meal?

10 A. No. It was on the table. There were

11 pitchers of water on the table with plastic glasses, or

12 the water had already been poured into the glasses, or

13 they would pour the water from these pitchers

14 themselves.

15 Q. When you say the latter period, what period

16 are you referring to?

17 A. Well, the last month or so.

18 Q. Is this after the journalist visited the

19 camp?

20 A. Prior to their visit and following their

21 visit.

22 Q. Now, what was the food like that the guards

23 received? You referred to it, but you didn't describe

24 it.

25 A. Well, normal food, good quality food, caloric

Page 2347

1 food. It wasn't the same every day, but it was far,

2 far better compared to the other one.

3 Q. Did they receive meat in their meals?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Vegetables?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Potatoes?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Bread?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Were they given only soup every day, the

12 guards?

13 A. No.

14 MR. KEEGAN: Could the witness please be

15 shown Exhibit 3/70, A through D. That's the four

16 photographs of the prisoners going to and coming from

17 meals.

18 Q. Witness B, can you please look at those four

19 photographs. Witness B, what do those four photographs

20 depict? What do they indicate?

21 A. The bringing in of the prisoners to lunch.

22 The way they took their lunch, left their plates, and

23 went out.

24 Q. Okay. This first photograph which you've

25 placed on the scene, does that indicate how the

Page 2348

1 prisoners would proceed into the canteen, the

2 restaurant, for their lunch?

3 A. Yes, that's precisely it.

4 Q. And is that the serving line we see in the

5 back of that photograph?

6 A. Yes, it is. Here you see it [indicates].

7 That's the serving line.

8 Q. And the next photograph.

9 A. The next photograph is when they took their

10 meals off the line and took their spoons, cutlery.

11 Q. And do you recognise anybody in that

12 photograph?

13 A. Yes. I recognise Zoran Delic, one of those

14 who distributed the food. That's him there

15 [indicates].

16 Q. And did he supervise the food distribution

17 during the time that you were in the camp?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And the next photograph.

20 A. The next photograph is when they would return

21 their empty plates. And the bread that they didn't

22 have time to eat, they held in their hands. And you

23 can see this on the photograph. They would take this

24 bread out with them and eat it later on. Where they

25 all were, I don't know. Some of them were on the

Page 2349

1 pista; others were in the garages, in the "white

2 house," and so on.

3 Q. The guard who's standing on the left of that

4 photograph as we look at it, what type of uniform is he

5 wearing?

6 A. Yes, that's the uniform of an active-duty

7 policeman.

8 Q. And the next photograph, please.

9 A. This is the way out of the restaurant. And

10 behind you can see the "green house" area, the glass

11 area [indicates], which is where some of the prisoners

12 were also positioned.

13 Q. Okay. Just for clarification's sake, we've

14 got different translations there of that term. That

15 area in the background, what was it called where the

16 prisoners -- you can see the prisoners sitting down?

17 A. "Green house."

18 THE INTERPRETER: Glassed-in area.

19 Interpreters note.

20 MR. KEEGAN: Okay. Thank you.

21 Your Honour, would that be a convenient

22 time?

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

24 Mr. Keegan. This is a good moment for the pause. And

25 we're going to have a half-hour break.

Page 2350

1 --- Recess taken at 11.05 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 11.40 a.m.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be

4 seated.

5 Mr. Keegan, you may continue.

6 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Witness B, how were the guards in the Omarska

8 camp organised?

9 A. They were organised in three shifts.

10 Q. And how often did the guard shifts change?

11 A. When I was able to register what was

12 happening, I noticed that the shifts changed every

13 12 hours.

14 Q. Was there anyone in charge of each of the

15 guard shifts?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who were the shift commanders?

18 A. Mladjo Radic, Milojica Kos, and Momir

19 Gruban.

20 Q. Did you know any of those three from before

21 the war?

22 A. Yes. I knew Mladjo Radic or, rather, Mladen

23 Radic.

24 Q. What type of uniforms did the guards wear in

25 the camp?

Page 2351

1 A. There were various uniforms, camouflage, SMB,

2 olive green, or police uniforms.

3 MR. KEEGAN: Could the witness please be

4 shown what's been previously marked as Exhibits 3/69A

5 and B, and what was admitted yesterday as Exhibit

6 D26/1.

7 Q. Witness B, can you look at all three of those

8 pictures, please. If you could place what is actually

9 the second picture in the stack that you have on the

10 monitor first.

11 Witness B, first of all, do you recognise the

12 person in that picture?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And who is that?

15 A. Mladen Radic.

16 Q. What type of uniform is he wearing in that

17 photograph?

18 A. A police uniform, summer uniform.

19 Q. Did you ever observe Mladjo Radic wearing

20 that uniform during the time he was a guard shift

21 commander in the Omarska camp?

22 A. Yes. He wore it.

23 Q. Could you place the next photograph on the

24 ELMO, please.

25 The guards in that photograph, what uniform

Page 2352

1 are they wearing?

2 A. The first two are wearing police uniforms,

3 whereas this other one, I think he has camouflage

4 trousers on, as far as I can see.

5 Q. What type of shirt is that third individual

6 wearing, the one you described as wearing what you

7 think are camouflage pants?

8 A. It seems to me to be a white shirt.

9 Q. Would you place the third photograph on,

10 please.

11 Witness B, first of all, do you recognise the

12 person in that photograph?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Who is that?

15 A. Drazenko Predojevic.

16 Q. What position did he hold in the camp, if

17 any?

18 A. The guard.

19 Q. Do you know whose shift he was on?

20 A. In Mladen Radic's shift.

21 Q. What type of uniform is Predojevic wearing in

22 that photograph?

23 A. His shirt is olive grey and the trousers are

24 camouflage.

25 Q. Do you recall seeing him wear such an outfit

Page 2353

1 in the camp when he was a guard there?

2 A. Yes. Yes, exactly so.

3 Q. Did you ever have any direct contact with

4 Drazenko Predojevic?

5 A. He would, during lunchtime, most frequently

6 be in the restaurant, in the dining-room.

7 Q. Earlier you described beatings which occurred

8 as prisoners came in to eat and when they left. Do you

9 recall ever seeing Drazenko Predojevic take part in

10 those beatings?

11 A. Frequently in the restaurant.

12 Q. To your knowledge, was he also involved in

13 other beatings in the camp?

14 A. Yes, whenever he was on duty. He was one of

15 those that I noticed in particular and of whom I could

16 say that he was one of the worst.

17 Q. Did he ever ask you to give him medical

18 treatment of any type?

19 A. Yes. I bandaged his hand here [indicates] in

20 the area of the wrist, or I would put a Band-Aid on a

21 finger he may have hurt.

22 Q. And how did he get those injuries?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. Did he tell you how he got them?

25 A. No. He just said, "Come on. You're from the

Page 2354

1 medical corps. Show me what you can do and bandage my

2 arm."

3 Q. Who were the command staff at the Omarska

4 camp in the first period during which you were

5 detained?

6 A. Zeljko Meakic and, well, Miroslav Kvocka.

7 Q. Did you know either of those two men before

8 you were in the camp?

9 A. No.

10 Q. What position in the camp did Miroslav Kvocka

11 have?

12 A. Judging by his behaviour with the guards and

13 the personnel, the guard personnel, at the very

14 beginning it was quite evident that the guards gathered

15 round him and then they would disperse to take up their

16 positions. And judging by those conversations that he

17 had with the guards, one could conclude that he had a

18 senior position in the camp, one of the senior

19 positions.

20 Q. Were you able to tell from the conduct of the

21 camp personnel that you observed, or conversations

22 which you overheard, whether he was in a position

23 superior to the guard shift commanders?

24 A. Yes. Several times I heard a guard

25 addressing him in passing as "chief" or "commander."

Page 2355

1 Everyone addressed him as a person who was responsible

2 for the command in the camp.

3 Q. How often did you see Miroslav Kvocka in the

4 camp?

5 A. I couldn't really say, but almost every day

6 during his stay there. At first I saw him quite often.

7 Q. Did Miroslav Kvocka carry a weapon of any

8 type?

9 A. Yes. He was known by his pump-action rifle

10 and his black gloves with the fingers cut off, and that

11 is how I remember him.

12 Q. Do you recall what type of uniform, if any,

13 he wore?

14 A. Yes. He wore a camouflage uniform.

15 Q. Approximately how long do you recall seeing

16 Kvocka working in the Omarska camp?

17 A. A month, a month and a half. Not more than

18 that. I didn't see him after that.

19 Q. Were you able to tell from what you could

20 observe whether Miroslav Kvocka was in a position

21 superior to or below Zeljko Meakic?

22 A. I don't know that.

23 Q. From what you could observe with respect the

24 way the guards treated him, did they treat him in a

25 manner similar to Meakic or differently?

Page 2356

1 A. In the same way.

2 Q. After Kvocka left the camp, who worked with

3 Meakic in the command of the camp?

4 A. Drago Prcac came.

5 Q. What indications did you have that Drago

6 Prcac was a commander in the camp?

7 A. Well, by the behaviour of the personnel or

8 the guards, who treated him in the same way they did

9 Miroslav Kvocka. They were -- after talking to him,

10 they would quietly go to their guard posts, and that is

11 how I came to that conclusion.

12 Q. From what you could observe, did the guards

13 and the camp personnel treat him in the same way they

14 treated Zeljko Meakic or differently?

15 A. In the same way as towards Zeljko Meakic.

16 Q. Did you see Drago Prcac move around the camp

17 area?

18 A. Yes. I would see him every time when he

19 would take up his duties. He would contact the

20 guards. But this was very briefly. Then he would go

21 back or go off somewhere. So he didn't spend a lot of

22 time among the guards. He would withdraw. Whether he

23 went to the offices where they were, or somewhere else,

24 I don't know.

25 Q. Would he carry anything with him when he

Page 2357

1 walked about the camp and spoke with the guards?

2 A. He had a notebook under his arm. What the

3 purpose of that notebook was, I don't know.

4 Q. Did you ever have an occasion to see Drago

5 Prcac speaking with the shift commanders?

6 A. Yes. That happened at the pista, within the

7 compound.

8 Q. Did you ever see them speaking upstairs on

9 the first floor of the administration building?

10 A. I had occasion to be, not often, but quite

11 frequently, in their office, to make coffee or to clean

12 the offices or something like that. But I wouldn't

13 hear any important conversations, because as soon as I

14 went in, the subject of the conversation would change,

15 so there was nothing of significance that I could

16 overhear.

17 Q. What type of clothing or uniform did you

18 observe Drago Prcac wearing at the camp?

19 A. He would most frequently wear the summer

20 police uniform.

21 Q. And did you see him wear anything else other

22 than that?

23 A. Only a civilian shirt or something of that

24 kind.

25 Q. Do you remember the colour of the civilian

Page 2358

1 shirt?

2 A. Usually it was -- well, white.

3 Q. Did you ever have a conversation with Zeljko

4 Meakic about his position in the camp?

5 A. Yes. On one occasion -- it was towards the

6 end -- when I heard that they called him chief, or

7 commander, I asked him, "Are you the commander of the

8 camp here?" And he would say, "No. I am commander of

9 the security." And then he would stress that Drago

10 Prcac was the commander of the camp. He told me that.

11 Q. From the beginning of your stay in the

12 Omarska camp, did you observe prisoners arriving, being

13 brought to the camp, from the restaurant building where

14 you were during the day?

15 A. Yes. It was precisely where we were sitting,

16 and you could see this from the place we distributed

17 food, because the restaurant had large windows, and you

18 could see that. But the women would sometimes turn

19 their backs, and you couldn't always see.

20 But as I worked every day, almost every day

21 and distributed food, I did have a chance to see what

22 was being done with the prisoners who were brought by

23 buses there or by any other means of transport.

24 Usually it was a police car. But then I had the chance

25 of seeing what was being done to those people, how they

Page 2359

1 physically mistreated them.

2 Q. You mentioned when prisoners were brought via

3 police car. Did you also observe occasions when they

4 were brought in larger vehicles such as a van or a

5 bus?

6 A. Yes. They would come in larger groups. Then

7 they would come by bus. They would stand usually in

8 front of the garage or behind the kitchen, behind the

9 restaurant, and they would get out there. They would

10 be searched there. That would be the beginning of the

11 beatings, as far as we could hear. Then what one by

12 one, in a column, single file or whatever, they would

13 go into the different premises, into the "white house"

14 or wherever they were distributed. They would move on

15 from there.

16 Q. On those occasions that you observed the

17 arrival of prisoners, who would go out to meet the

18 prisoners as they arrived?

19 A. Well, first of all, one of those main ones on

20 duty that day in the camp, then the shift leader and

21 the guards who were present there, who were on duty

22 that day.

23 Q. In one of your earlier answers, you mentioned

24 that prisoners would be beaten after they got out of

25 the vehicles and were being searched.

Page 2360

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Then you indicated they moved on to various

3 locations in the camp. Would anything happen to the

4 prisoners as they were being taken to those other

5 locations, that you could observe?

6 A. Well, that was precisely when they were taken

7 off in the direction of the "white house," where there

8 were -- where it was obvious that they had previously

9 been beaten. They had bruises and visible signs of

10 blows on their faces and so on.

11 When they would go off in the direction of

12 the "white house" one by one, they would be met there

13 by the guards where they would beat them.

14 Q. And would these beatings take place out in

15 front of the "white house" where you could observe

16 them?

17 A. Yes. Yes, precisely so. In front of the

18 "white house." At the entrance of the "white house"

19 itself.

20 Q. Did you ever overhear the guards talking

21 about what they were doing to the prisoners when they

22 arrived at the camp?

23 A. I remember one particular person. When the

24 driver came and the president of the municipality, this

25 Music, when a person ran into the kitchen and said,

Page 2361

1 "We've got a good one here, a big fat one. We'll take

2 out our pleasure out on him." And at the time I said,

3 "Poor Idriz," not knowing that he would come up to me

4 and ask me, "Ah, you know him, do you?" He was from

5 Kozarac and my schoolmate from elementary school.

6 Q. In addition to that one specific prisoner

7 that you knew, did you overhear other similar

8 conversations on other occasions where the guards spoke

9 about what they were doing?

10 A. Well, there were other comments but there was

11 fear generally. You couldn't hear each and every

12 comment. There would be comments after every arrival,

13 especially the guards, although many of them were

14 quiet. Many of them didn't say anything. Some

15 individuals were even proud when they saw new arrivals,

16 seeing that they could beat them and so on, but it was

17 terrible.

18 Q. Now, did you ever see any of the camp command

19 staff that you have talked about thus far present when

20 these new arrivals were beaten?

21 A. Well, I have already said that those who were

22 on duty that day were present.

23 Q. Do you recall occasions when Miroslav Kvocka

24 was present on the pista area when new arrivals were

25 beaten there?

Page 2362

1 A. I repeat again: All of them, at the time,

2 were outside when the new arrivals came, all of them

3 who were on duty that day, whether it was Kvocka or

4 Prcac, but that staff was outside, all of them.

5 Q. And what about the shift commanders? Did you

6 ever see Radic present when new arrivals were beaten on

7 the pista?

8 A. Well, he was present as well.

9 Q. And Milojica Kos?

10 A. Yes, depending on whether he was on duty when

11 the group was brought in.

12 Q. Now, did you ever see any of those men, whose

13 names have just been mentioned, beat any of the

14 detainees themselves, that is, beat them personally?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you ever see any of those men, whose

17 names we have mentioned, try to stop the beatings or to

18 intervene in any way?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Now, other than these beatings of the new

21 arrivals which you have talked about, were prisoners

22 beaten on all three of the guard shifts?

23 A. Yes, they were.

24 Q. Were prisoners in the Omarska camp beaten or

25 tortured every day?

Page 2363

1 A. During the interrogations they were. When it

2 was time for interrogation, then they were beaten.

3 Q. And at other times were there random beatings

4 of the prisoners in the camp?

5 A. I don't understand your question. I didn't

6 hear it properly.

7 Q. At times other than -- you've spoken now of

8 new arrivals and beatings when prisoners were going to

9 meals and beatings during interrogations. On occasions

10 other than those, in other words, you know, just other

11 parts of the day, were prisoners beaten?

12 A. Yes, when they arrived. That's when they

13 beat them. During their meals they beat them, and

14 during their interrogations they beat them, and during

15 the course of the night.

16 Q. Did you see the effects of these beatings on

17 the prisoners?

18 A. During the day you mean? Yes. But at night

19 I just heard it.

20 Q. Now, I'm speaking specifically about -- were

21 there any visible signs or marks or injuries that you

22 could see on the prisoners as a result of these

23 beatings?

24 A. Yes. Yes, there were signs. For example, on

25 their backs. Their shirts would be torn and you could

Page 2364

1 see that the flesh had been torn. There were bruises

2 on their face, and the arch around the eye might being

3 fractured, or you could see the signs of a beating.

4 Q. Were all three guard shifts the same in the

5 way that they treated the prisoners?

6 A. No.

7 Q. In what way were they different?

8 A. Unfortunately, I have to say that in Mladen

9 Radic's shift there were most beatings going on. And

10 as far as I was able to notice, there were young men

11 who were quite simply proud of their duty and position

12 in the camp. Why, I don't know.

13 Q. When you say that they were "proud of their

14 position and duty in the camp," what do you mean? What

15 do you mean "proud"?

16 A. Well, they were -- they put themselves above

17 us. They had this kind of attitude of superiority,

18 arrogant, and pride as well.

19 Q. Can you give an example of what Radic's shift

20 was like?

21 A. His shift was in one -- a single

22 composition. It was formed of young men; well-built

23 young men; well-developed, strong young men; and as I

24 have already said, they were proud.

25 Q. Can you a give an example of an instance when

Page 2365

1 they mistreated prisoners or beat prisoners?

2 A. Well, usually it was when they came to lunch,

3 came in to lunch. When the new arrivals came as well.

4 Q. Do you recall one particular occasion when

5 the beatings at lunch were worse than usual?

6 A. It was one particular day when they beat them

7 so much, when the detainees -- when bread would fly out

8 of their hands. They had very little time to come in,

9 get their food, eat it, and go out, and all this would

10 be accompanied by blows. Everyone tried to hold on to

11 his eighth of a loaf of bread. If they were able to

12 put the bread in their pockets, they managed to save

13 the bread, but all the others carrying this bread, when

14 the blows fell, they would open their hands and the

15 bread would fall out of their hands. This was

16 collected up, and then it was said that these people

17 were on a strike, that they didn't want to eat.

18 So that was one of the worst days ever during

19 my entire stay in Omarska, and it really upset me

20 tremendously, and I'll never forget it. Why -- well,

21 they're not cattle; they were human beings -- what the

22 reason was. Well, I heard a day or two later that

23 there had been a conflict at Gradacac and that many

24 people had lost their lives there and that was the

25 reason why they were beating the people there.

Page 2366

1 Q. Witness B, if we can go back and ask a few

2 more questions about that incident. First, let's start

3 with this explanation you gave. You say that there was

4 a battle at Gradacac and that many people lost their

5 lives. Who lost their lives in that battle?

6 A. I think it was the people of Omarska, the

7 population of Omarska who were on the battlefront, and

8 that that was the main reason. Now, who they actually

9 were, well, I don't know them.

10 Q. But you were told a couple of days later that

11 the reason for the beating on that day was because

12 soldiers from Omarska had been killed at the front.

13 A. Yes. That was a discussion between some of

14 the guards, and I happened to overhear their

15 conversation in the kitchen while they were talking.

16 Q. Do you remember -- can you recall the date of

17 this incident?

18 A. (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 Q. What was it about this particular incident,

22 the one you described earlier, that made it so much

23 worse than the beatings that you described that

24 occurred when prisoners were going to meals as a

25 routine? Why was this day so much worse?

Page 2367

1 A. Because they had to go in running, and when

2 they entered, they would receive blows at the

3 entrance. And they would go in with these injuries.

4 And one of them, in fact, couldn't even see out of his

5 eye, because blood was trickling down and the arch of

6 his eye had been fractured. And when others heard that

7 prisoners were being beaten, they didn't come in to

8 lunch at all, because they would rather go hungry than

9 receive blows. So that that particular day we had some

10 food left over, and later on that food -- actually,

11 that food was distributed again the following day, the

12 leftover food.

13 Q. You referred to bread flying out of

14 prisoners' hands. What do you mean by that?

15 A. Well, the bread they had, it flew out of

16 their hands, and the guards picked up the bread, the

17 pieces of bread, and took it away. And Zeljko Meakic

18 that evening called me up and -- how shall I put it? I

19 was taken up to their room. He asked me why those

20 people had gone on a hunger strike, why didn't they

21 want to eat? And I just said, "Zeljko, it was not a

22 strike of any kind. They were so angry today, they

23 were in such a rage, that -- they beat them so much

24 that -- and I can't understand that anybody could beat

25 anybody else so much. Why? That day they were in a

Page 2368

1 particular rage."

2 Q. Did you ever have a conversation with Mladjo

3 Radic about that beating, the way the prisoners were

4 beaten that day?

5 A. Yes. When he came into the kitchen, I said,

6 "Why are these people being beaten? Why was that

7 done?" And I think he'll remember the sentence. He

8 said, "Oh, fuck them. Who could prevent them from

9 doing it? I can't do anything to stop them."

10 Q. Did he refer to the guards in any particular

11 way? Did he call them something?

12 A. Well, he said something like an unruly crowd,

13 something like that. It's a special word. It didn't

14 have any particular meaning, but like a band or

15 something like that.

16 Q. Now, when he said this to you, in your

17 opinion did you take it as if he was serious about how

18 he described them?

19 A. Well, according to the expression he used,

20 and his face, it wasn't anything serious. I

21 couldn't -- I didn't take him to be serious. He just

22 said it, like -- like a joke, in that sense.

23 Q. From what you saw during your time in the

24 camp, did you believe that Mladjo Radic did have the

25 authority to control the conduct of the guards on his

Page 2369

1 shift?

2 A. Absolutely.

3 Q. In your opinion, if he had wanted to, could

4 he have prevented beatings that day?

5 A. Well, if he has the duty of being a shift

6 leader, then I also think he has the authority to

7 prevent something from being done as well, or to make a

8 report of it to the command.

9 Q. Based on what you observed in the camp, if he

10 had given such an order, that is, not to beat the

11 prisoners, do you believe the guards on his shift would

12 have obeyed him?

13 A. I hope that most of them would, but not all

14 of them. Most of them would have listened to him.

15 Q. Did Mladjo Radic carry a weapon when he was

16 in the camp?

17 A. They all had weapons. He had an automatic

18 rifle.

19 Q. Now, earlier you referred to interrogations.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How often were prisoners interrogated in the

22 camp?

23 A. Everyone was interrogated at least once.

24 Q. Were interrogations carried out on a daily

25 basis?

Page 2370

1 A. Yes. It was every day.

2 Q. Were you able to hear the interrogations?

3 A. Well, I couldn't hear the actual questions

4 asked by the interrogators, but I did hear the abuse,

5 the blows; quite simply, the cries and screams of the

6 people who went in for interrogation, and the general

7 noise, and shouting at the people who were being

8 interrogated.

9 Q. How often did you hear this abuse, the blows,

10 the cries and the screams of the people who went in?

11 How often would you hear that?

12 A. Well, you could hear that often, almost every

13 day during the interrogation sessions.

14 Q. Where would you be when you would hear this

15 noise?

16 A. I was in the restaurant.

17 Q. If someone was in one of the offices on the

18 first floor, in your opinion would they have heard this

19 noise as well?

20 A. Yes, because the insulation of the walls

21 wasn't such that you couldn't hear. It wasn't

22 soundproof.

23 Q. Did you ever see the prisoners when they came

24 down from interrogation?

25 A. I shall mention one of those examples. I

Page 2371

1 saw, for instance, when they brought down a man who had

2 been beaten, and they held him under his armpits and

3 his feet just dragged along the floor, along the

4 pista. And they would take him off in the direction of

5 the "white house," where he was taken over by two

6 prisoners, and that's where they took him.

7 Q. And what did that prisoner look like?

8 A. Well, I couldn't actually see him from the

9 front, what he looked like from face on; I just saw his

10 back and the state he was in when they took him out.

11 He was all beaten up. And they carried him out. He

12 couldn't walk himself.

13 Q. Did you ever have to go into the

14 interrogation rooms themselves?

15 A. Yes. We slept in two of those interrogation

16 rooms.

17 Q. Did you ever have an occasion to have to

18 clean those interrogation rooms?

19 A. Only once. I went there with another woman.

20 The two of us were cleaning those two rooms to be able

21 to sleep in them afterwards.

22 Q. On other days, did other women have to clean

23 the rooms while you were working in the restaurant?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. On the occasion when you cleaned the rooms,

Page 2372

1 what did the room look like when you went in? What

2 condition was it in?

3 A. First of all, on the table, on the wooden

4 board, there were blots of blood. On the walls, which

5 was a brick wall, there would drops of blood. There

6 was blood on the floor as well. And behind the door I

7 found a broken pair of glasses with very thick lenses.

8 Who they belonged to, I don't know. And I found some

9 other objects, probably those they used during the

10 interrogations.

11 Q. Now, what were those objects that you found?

12 A. There was a whip made from a plaited strand.

13 Then there were metal bars. What they were used for, I

14 don't know. And on one of those metal bars there were

15 traces of blood.

16 Q. Just to clear up the transcript, the

17 translation issue: The whip that you found, was that

18 made from braided wood, strips of wood?

19 A. It was wood which had been cut up into -- I

20 don't know how to explain it -- into several strips and

21 then were braided together.

22 Q. Now, this metal bar with the traces of blood

23 on it, did you do anything with that metal bar?

24 A. I put all those objects that were on the

25 table into the metal cupboards for clothing. However,

Page 2373

1 one bar fell behind and I didn't pick it up. It stayed

2 there that night.

3 Q. And was there an incident the next day that

4 occurred because of that metal bar falling behind the

5 metal cabinet?

6 A. Yes. The question was which women had spent

7 the night there, and they had to be asked why it had

8 been removed. It was Dragan Radakovic who sent for

9 those women, two women. Jadranka Papes and Esma

10 Elezovic went up there, and upon their return, they

11 were afraid. Especially Jadranka was scared. She had

12 known Radakovic from before the war. And then we

13 asked, "Why so much fuss?" And then he said, "If the

14 same thing happened another time, we would be

15 transferred to one of the men's rooms. A message was

16 left for me to pass on to Zeljko, and I gave it to

17 Zeljko and he said to me, "Never mind. He's just

18 talking. Nothing will come of it."

19 Q. Earlier you referred to prisoners being

20 beaten at night. How do you know that?

21 A. I heard, or rather all the women who were in

22 that room in which I slept could hear when one of the

23 people beaten up in that room was brought in. We heard

24 his cries. We heard the blows. We heard glass

25 shattering and splinters falling to the floor. We

Page 2374

1 could hear the person who was being mistreated. So all

2 the women fell silent. We were all scared. Of course,

3 that night not one of us had a wink of sleep.

4 Q. Were there any specific instances where you

5 knew the victim of the beating?

6 A. I can mention Simo [sic] Saric and Professor

7 Puskar, Abdulah Puskar, because I heard them and

8 recognised their voices.

9 Q. Could you repeat the full name of the first

10 man you mentioned, Saric? What was his full name?

11 A. Silvio Saric.

12 Q. Now, where were you when you heard the

13 beatings of Saric and Puskar?

14 A. I was in that room, together with another

15 17 women who were in that room.

16 Q. Now, specifically with respect to Silvio

17 Saric, what could you hear?

18 A. I can quote the words he spoke when he was

19 being beaten, when he received those blows. They

20 demanded that he admit something and he said, "I'm not

21 guilty, Brothers. Why you are you doing this,

22 Brothers?" And then the answer was, "You Ustasha

23 motherfucker. Who is your brother? If you had been

24 our brother, you would be on our side."

25 Q. What did you hear after that?

Page 2375

1 A. Nothing. For a moment, everything fell

2 quiet. We didn't hear anything or anyone except the

3 words, "Get some water," which meant that the man was

4 unconscious. Then after awhile, they resumed the

5 beating.

6 Q. Now, when you heard Silvio Saric saying the

7 things you just said to the Court, could you tell if

8 they were beating him at that time?

9 A. Yes, when he said, "Don't do that, Brothers.

10 Why are you beating me? I'm not guilty. I'm

11 innocent."

12 Q. What were the sounds that you heard that

13 indicated that he was being beaten?

14 A. Well, simply a blow, blows against these

15 metal cabinets, then the glass shattering and dropping

16 to the floor. All this could be heard, because we

17 women, who were lying down with our ears to the floor,

18 every movement, every step could be heard.

19 Q. Were there any curses during that beating

20 that you recognised so that you knew who it was that

21 was saying that to Saric?

22 A. I've already said the curses used. They

23 cursed his Ustasha mother, and they said, "If you were

24 our brother, you would be on our side." I've already

25 said that.

Page 2376

1 At one point in time, I recognised the voice

2 of Zeljko Meakic, but he wasn't alone.

3 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. We just would like

4 to know what is the right explanation of "Ustasha" in

5 this context.


7 Q. What does "Ustasha" refer to, Witness B?

8 A. Well, "Ustashas" was the name given to

9 Catholics. For me, it's a derogatory term, similar to

10 the term "Chetnik" when it is used for Orthodox

11 Christians, if that is sufficient as an explanation.

12 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] And it applied

13 only to Catholics or also to Muslims in this context?

14 A. They called the Muslims Ustashas also or

15 balijas.

16 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you.


18 Q. Just to clarify now the record. When you

19 refer to Catholics, are you referring also to persons

20 who could be described as Croats?

21 A. I should like to give an explanation for the

22 term I'm using, "Catholic," "Muslims," and "Orthodox

23 Christians." "Catholics" apply to Catholics in Bosnia

24 and a Croat is an inhabitant of Croatia, as the word

25 itself implies. The Croats are also Catholics.

Page 2377

1 When I say "Orthodox," it applies to Serbs or

2 Orthodox people; whereas for me, the word "Serbian" is

3 an inhabitant of Serbia, but in Bosnia, they are

4 Orthodox, because both Serbs in Serbia are Orthodox.

5 Because in Bosnia, there are no Serbs or Croats there.

6 They're Orthodox, Muslim, and Catholic inhabitants.

7 That is my explanation.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan,

9 I should like to remind you. If we are to finish with

10 this witness today, I think that we should have

11 finished by 12.30. As you know, there is the

12 cross-examination, the re-examination, and then the

13 Judges. So please bear that in mind. Thank you.

14 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. I'm aware of

15 that.

16 Q. How did you know that the victim of that

17 beating was Silvio Saric?

18 A. I recognised the voice, because I knew him a

19 long time before I came to the camp, many years before

20 the war.

21 Q. Had you spent a significant amount of time

22 socialising with him over the years before the war?

23 A. Yes. Most often, we went mountaineering, and

24 we met there at the mountain chalet at Kotlovaca,

25 taking long walks on Mount Kozara. We would organise

Page 2378

1 group outings of members of the mountaineering club

2 where we had gatherings and meetings of mountaineers,

3 and we spent a lot of free time together.

4 Q. Had you seen Silvio Saric in the camp prior

5 to the beating that you've described?

6 A. Yes, when he came.

7 Q. Did you ever see him after this beating?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Were you ever told by other prisoners what

10 had happened to Silvio Saric?

11 A. When I reached Karlovac, I was told that he

12 succumbed to the beatings, that he died. How he died,

13 I don't know.

14 Q. Now with respect to Professor Puskar, how did

15 you know that he was the other person who was being

16 beaten?

17 A. In the same way as before. I heard it. I

18 knew him. He was my math teacher. Mathematics was

19 taught regularly in schools, so I had most contact with

20 him among all my teachers. So I recognised his voice

21 when he raised his voice or spoke quietly as in class.

22 So I remembered his voice.

23 Q. Did you ever see Abdulah Puskar in the camp

24 before this beating?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2379

1 Q. Did you ever see him again after this

2 beating?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Were you told by other prisoners what had

5 happened to him?

6 A. I was also told that he succumbed to those

7 beatings.

8 Q. When you say "succumbed," do you mean he died

9 as a result of the beatings?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you recall a Serb holiday which occurred

12 while you were in the camp, called Petrovdan?

13 A. Yes, I do remember. Tyres were set on fire.

14 And I remembered it by an incident that I personally

15 witnessed.

16 Q. What did you see then?

17 A. I saw a tyre, a large tyre, on fire in front

18 of the "white house," and very thick, black smoke was

19 rising, and some flames from the tyre, and I just saw

20 the legs of a man in that tyre. Who it was, what had

21 happened, I don't know.

22 Q. When you say you saw the legs of a man in

23 that tyre, was that at the time when the tyre was on

24 fire?

25 A. Yes. Just when the flame flickered and lit

Page 2380

1 up the area, I noticed the legs. This was just the

2 second.

3 Q. Do you recall whose shift -- which guard

4 shift was on duty at that time?

5 A. No. I don't recall that.

6 Q. Witness B, did you ever see dead bodies of

7 prisoners in the camp?

8 A. I saw, further away near the "white house"

9 and one that was being carried out of the "glass

10 house." It was Dalija Hrnic.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me

12 for interrupting you. The interpreters are asking you

13 to move a little away from the microphone. I

14 apologise. First they ask you to go up to the

15 microphone, now they're asking you to move away. It's

16 a bit complicated to please everyone, as you know.

17 Thank you very much.

18 You can put your headphones in a more

19 comfortable manner. Look what I do. You can adjust

20 them, you see. You can adjust them to make them

21 comfortable.

22 THE WITNESS: Thank you. I'm fine. I was

23 sitting in this way to give my arms a rest, but I'm

24 fine.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We just

Page 2381

1 want you to feel at ease. You can do what you like

2 with your hands and rest in the best way that suits

3 you.


5 Q. Witness B, when you would see the dead bodies

6 in the camp, where would those bodies be, in what

7 area?

8 A. In the area of the "white house." And this

9 one body that was carried out of the "glass house," as

10 I have just said.

11 Q. That was a person you identified as Dalija

12 Hrnic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. During the time that you were in the camp,

15 were the prisoners allowed to bathe? Were the men

16 allowed to shave? Were people allowed to wash their

17 clothes?

18 A. No.

19 Q. At any time were women given the necessary

20 items for their personal hygiene?

21 A. No. Only the last month we were given a

22 kilogram of medical cotton wool if any of the women

23 would have their periods. Unfortunately, in my case,

24 after three months of stay in Omarska, I had three

25 periods. There was nothing that I could use except

Page 2382

1 toilet paper for as long as it existed; after that,

2 newspapers. There was nothing.

3 One of their cleaning ladies once, at my

4 request, brought me a few sanitary napkins. Otherwise,

5 as I said, I used paper or newspaper.

6 Q. These cleaning ladies, as you referred to

7 them, what areas of the camp did they work in? What

8 did they clean?

9 A. They were in the administrative building.

10 They were cleaning the offices or whatever. Anyway,

11 they were present there on a daily basis.

12 Q. Did they ever clean the areas where the

13 prisoners were?

14 A. I don't know that.

15 Q. You have described what the food was like at

16 the camp, the hygiene conditions. Did prisoners suffer

17 from disease and illness?

18 A. There was dysentery.

19 Q. You also described the beatings and the

20 effects of those beatings.

21 MR. KEEGAN: Could the witness please be

22 shown what was previously marked as Exhibit 3/31.

23 Q. Witness B, do the bruises that show in that

24 picture, did they -- are they representative of the

25 types of bruising you saw on the prisoners in Omarska?

Page 2383

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. Witness B, were women called out

3 of their rooms at night?

4 A. I shall give you my example, when I was taken

5 out. It was at the very beginning. Can I continue?

6 Q. Yes, please.

7 A. It was during the first ten-day period or so

8 when I arrived. A young man took me out during the

9 night. There was no electricity. There were just us

10 three women then in one of those rooms, myself, Velida,

11 and another one.

12 Q. What was the name of the man --

13 A. I can't remember now. There were two of them

14 with the same surname.

15 Q. Perhaps we'll come back to that question.

16 Witness B, what happened when this young man took you

17 out?

18 A. He took me to one of these offices, with the

19 intention of rape. He threw me on the floor. I was

20 wearing the same sweatsuit. He lay on top of me and

21 started physically abusing me. I tried to defend

22 myself, and I did for as long as my strength lasted,

23 and at one point, he threatened to kill me if I

24 wouldn't let him have his way. I continued, like any

25 other woman, to fight back.

Page 2384

1 At one point, he crossed his fingers like

2 this and suddenly pulled down, and I felt a very strong

3 pain in the neck area of my spine, and I said to myself

4 if I survived I would report him.

5 And I mentioned Mladjo Radic then. I think

6 it was another -- Brane Boic, a policeman that I also

7 know, or Zeljko Meakic. One of the two. I know that I

8 mentioned one of these two, but I do know that I

9 mentioned Mladen Radic.

10 And he got up, sat at the other end of the

11 table, offered me his hand, and said, "Can we be

12 friends from tonight on?" Which means that people were

13 taken out without the superiors in the camp knowing

14 about it. And he was precisely the guard who was

15 watching over us three women. He was sitting in the

16 corridor. He was responsible, as the guard, for the

17 women.

18 Q. Why did you mention Radic's name? Whose

19 shift was this guard on?

20 A. At first I didn't know. I didn't even know

21 that there were shifts, because this was at the very

22 beginning, when one simply doesn't know anything, out

23 of fear, and is not even interested in what was

24 happening. I mentioned Radic, as he was the only

25 person I knew.

Page 2385

1 Q. Did you later learn whose shift this guard

2 was on?

3 A. No. That guard, after a certain time, was

4 transferred from there, and I didn't see him at all for

5 a while. He was not there for long as a guard in the

6 camp.

7 Q. Were you ever called out at night by Zeljko

8 Meakic?

9 A. They would most frequently come during the

10 night to call me to make coffee for them if they were

11 tipsy or somebody was feeling sleepy on duty, and often

12 I would go out. And Zeljko would call me simply to ask

13 me certain things about something, so that I did go out

14 often, both during the daytime, in the evening, and

15 during the night.

16 Q. On one occasion did you walk into a room

17 Mladjo Radic was in, by mistake?

18 A. Yes, I did, unfortunately. That night I was

19 supposed to go to see Zeljko. I didn't understand

20 where, which room I should go to. And I opened the

21 first door, and when I entered, Radic said, "What are

22 you looking for here?" And I said, "Nothing. I'm

23 looking for Zeljko." However --

24 Q. Go ahead. Continue, please.

25 A. I asked him why he was there. I think he

Page 2386

1 will remember his answer. He said he was waiting for

2 Jadranka Cigelj. Whether she came or not, I don't

3 know. Anyway, I left, and Zeljko was in the next

4 room. When I told him that Zeljko sat down with me and

5 we talked again, he asked me about various places,

6 where the people of Kozarac may be hiding. That

7 evening I didn't experience anything, but --

8 Q. Witness B, excuse me. Did Radic say why he

9 was waiting for Jadranka? Did he say anything else?

10 A. Yes. Whether he was speaking seriously or

11 not, he was rather rude in the words he used, crude.

12 He was cursing her and saying that he would take his

13 revenge. Now, whether he did or not, I don't know, but

14 with me he never was very serious; he was always

15 flippant.

16 Q. Witness B, on what day were you released from

17 Omarska camp?

18 A. On the 23rd of August.

19 Q. And where did you go from there?

20 A. I went to Trnopolje.

21 MR. KEEGAN: I have no further questions,

22 Your Honour.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

24 very much, Mr. Keegan. We're now going to have a

25 half-hour break before beginning with the

Page 2387

1 cross-examination.

2 But can I know already the order of the

3 cross-examination, or do you wish to discuss it during

4 the break, Mr. Simic?

5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

6 in view of the fact that we are having a break, we will

7 have some consultations about that. Thank you.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,

9 Mr. Simic. So we're going to have a half-hour break.

10 --- Recess taken at 12.59 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 1.34 p.m.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be

13 seated.

14 Witness B, you are now going to answer

15 questions put to you by the Defence counsels.

16 Mr. Simic, what is going to be the order of

17 the cross-examination, please?

18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

19 Your Honour.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see that

21 we're beginning with you; is that right?

22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, and

23 that's why we're sitting up here. The order will be as

24 it is in the indictment.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

Page 2388

1 Do all the Defence counsel have questions to put to the

2 witness?

3 Mr. Nikolic?

4 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

5 yes, I was just going to inform you and the opposite

6 side that the Defence of the accused, Mr. Kos, will not

7 be cross-examining Witness B.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

9 Mr. Nikolic. You may be seated.

10 Mr. Tosic?

11 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for

12 you to be able to plan the time for the

13 cross-examination, the Defence of Zigic Zoran will not

14 be asking Witness B any questions either. Thank you.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

16 Mr. Tosic.

17 Mr. Simic, how long do you expect to take?

18 Mr. Jovan Simic, how long do you expect to take? I see

19 that Mr. Fila is engaged in a conversation. I'm asking

20 you.

21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Some 20

22 minutes. A maximum of 20 minutes.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. I was

24 talking to Mr. Jovan --

25 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] We're not sure

Page 2389

1 whether we will be asking any questions at this point.

2 We'll see whether our colleague counsel will raise any

3 of the questions we wanted to raise.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, I

5 apologise for reversing the order. How long?

6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Ten minutes.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ten

8 minutes. Very well. I see that Mr. Simic is going to

9 say that he needs 20 minutes, more or less; is that

10 correct?

11 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, about 20

12 minutes.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we'll do

14 our utmost to complete our questioning of this witness

15 today, even if we have to work until 4.00, and I'm

16 saying this without any fear. I know that the

17 interpreters and the other staff are trembling at this

18 point, but I think there are exceptional, extraordinary

19 circumstances where we must all proceed in an

20 extraordinary manner. I don't want to take up too much

21 time in explaining why.

22 So, Mr. Simic, please go ahead.

23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

24 Your Honour.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

Page 2390

1 Q. Madam, I apologise for having to take up some

2 more of your time and take you back to these events,

3 events which are not a happy experience for you, and I

4 hope you'll be able to forget them as quickly as

5 possible without any undue results.

6 During Mr. Keegan's examination, you were

7 shown a photograph and you happened to mention a name,

8 and that name was Zoran Delic. You said that it was a

9 young man who, with two other persons, was in charge of

10 the distributing food while the women detainees were

11 not included in this process. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did Mr. Delic belong to the guards or some

14 other system, structure?

15 A. No, he wasn't a guard. He was just present

16 when the food was distributed.

17 Q. Did the other two individuals have this same

18 status until you yourself became part of the system?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. As we're talking about the food, let's round

21 off that topic. During your testimony, you said that

22 the only illness in the camp was dysentery, which was

23 the result that the food would be returned that was not

24 used up on the previous day, and as the weather was

25 hot, the food would go bad, and the food would be

Page 2391

1 served up the next day in the camp and distributed to

2 the prisoners. Is that true?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. Well, was it a common occurrence in Omarska

5 that food -- there would be too much food to be

6 returned to where it is cooked?

7 A. Unfortunately -- I have to tell the truth --

8 it was precisely during those days when the people were

9 beaten, physically abused, the prisoners coming to get

10 the food, and many of them didn't dare come. And I

11 stressed that earlier on. So that was the reason why

12 we had more food left over, food left over, surplus

13 food.

14 Q. You also mentioned something with respect to

15 the police, the army, and so on, and you have some

16 knowledge in that respect, and I'd like to ask you

17 something about the relationship between the police and

18 the military. Were these two completely separate

19 systems in their functioning, in the way they

20 functioned? Were they set apart completely?

21 A. By virtue of the functions in the war? I

22 don't understand your question.

23 Q. Yes. I'm asking you about the organisation

24 of the army and the organisation of the police. Were

25 these two separate organisational systems within one

Page 2392

1 state system, within a community?

2 A. Well, the police had its functions and

3 activity in the area in which they were, and the army

4 went to the front and it had its functions to perform.

5 Q. Can we agree that the police and the army

6 were then two separate systems?

7 A. No. No. They cooperated.

8 Q. Yes, they cooperated, but in Omarska, for

9 example, in Omarska, the -- it is the Territorial

10 Defence -- not Omarska. I'm sorry. I made a mistake.

11 Not Omarska I mean Kozarac. There was a company of

12 Territorial Defence, I believe you said.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And the commander, the leader of that

15 company, could he command -- was he in command over

16 policemen? Could he be their commander?

17 A. I don't know that. I was an ordinary,

18 run-of-the-mill soldier.

19 Q. What about the commander of the police? Did

20 he ever command you?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Thank you. Now we're speaking about

23 Omarska. From your angle of vision, which was from

24 your advantage point at the restaurant, and the

25 buildings vis-à-vis the restaurant, were you able to

Page 2393

1 see roundabout members of the army, members of the

2 Territorial Defence, in fact?

3 A. No, except for the guards.

4 Q. You only saw the military guards?

5 A. The guards that were there.

6 Q. I see.

7 A. The guards that were there.

8 Q. You brought up the subject of interrogators

9 during your testimony frequently. Now, according to

10 our own terminology, interrogators working on the first

11 floor of the administration building, that's them, do

12 you happen to know who was the superior of these

13 interrogators? To whom did they report to after having

14 had an informative conversation with you?

15 A. No, I don't.

16 Q. You mentioned Zeljko Meakic on several

17 occasions.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And in your statement -- and we'll return

20 back to that statement later on -- you said that before

21 this unfortunate occurrence, he was a professional

22 commander of the police station of Omarska. Is that

23 correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now I'd like to go back to the relationship

Page 2394

1 of Meakic towards the interrogators and investigators.

2 The interrogators, did they send any reports to

3 Mr. Meakic with regard to the interrogation sessions,

4 the results of the investigations and so on or did they

5 report elsewhere?

6 A. I don't know that.

7 Q. In your testimony, you mentioned the

8 situations when new arrivals came by bus, new

9 detainees, and you also said, although you weren't very

10 definite, said that the persons on duty would go and

11 meet them.

12 I'd like to ask you now to tell us where the

13 buses which arrived, where they stopped.

14 A. The buses that came with the prisoners

15 usually stopped behind, parked behind the kitchen or in

16 front of the garage of that same building.

17 Q. In view of your status as a protected

18 witness, we're going to try and not have to go out of

19 public session. So from your position sitting down,

20 would you look at the model, take a look at the model

21 in front of you.

22 A. This one here you mean?

23 Q. Yes. The restaurant is the building nearest

24 to me.

25 A. Yes.

Page 2395

1 Q. The garage, as far as I can see, is at the

2 corner, diagonally away from me but closer to you.

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 Q. Opposite the garage there is a broad concrete

5 area.

6 A. Yes. That area was called the pista.

7 Q. When the buses arrived, where would they

8 stop?

9 A. They stopped behind the restaurant, behind

10 the kitchen, or in front of the garage; that is,

11 looking at it from my side here.

12 Q. From your side. I see. You said that in the

13 course of the day, you would be in the restaurant and

14 the area where you sat there. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You also said that during the night, you were

17 up on the floor above, in the rooms. Did these rooms

18 look out onto the restaurant or this opposite side?

19 A. They looked out onto the restaurant.

20 Q. I see. The restaurant. Thank you. Did you,

21 from whichever position, that is to say, the restaurant

22 and the room you slept in, were you able personally and

23 directly to see the buses arriving and people stepping

24 off the buses? Did you see that yourself?

25 A. I didn't see it myself; I just heard the

Page 2396

1 noise.

2 Q. Very well. You heard the noise of buses

3 arriving. Thank you. Would you tell me this then,

4 please, although you've already given an answer, did

5 you ever personally, you personally, with your very own

6 eyes, see Mr. Kvocka being present and attending the

7 arrival of new prisoners at the place where the buses

8 stopped? Yes or no, madam.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Where from?

11 A. You go down from the room where it says

12 Militia, and he would move in the direction of the

13 buses.

14 Q. But a moment ago, we noted that either from

15 your first position or your second advantage point you

16 couldn't see the buses, you could just hear the sound

17 of them.

18 A. Yes, but I said that he went towards that

19 place.

20 Q. You mean by the sound. He went towards the

21 sound.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Let me go back to that question. He went in

24 that direction, but did you ever see him, the bus, the

25 prisoners, and Mr. Kvocka together? Did you see that?

Page 2397

1 A. Upon reception of the prisoners who were

2 moving around in the direction of where they would be

3 going, Kvocka would later on be amongst those guards in

4 that circle.

5 Q. We'll come back to Mr. Kvocka later, but let

6 us move on to Mr. Meakic for the moment. You said that

7 he was a professional chief of the police station in

8 Omarska, but during your testimony about the incident

9 that took place (redacted), you said that you

10 gave Mr. Meakic the information, you submitted him with

11 the information, and that your tone was a little

12 harsher in view of what had happened. Could you tell

13 me what Mr. Meakic's reaction was like?

14 A. Well, at first, when I arrived, or that is to

15 say when he asked me why they were on strike, why they

16 didn't want to eat --

17 Q. Yes. You explained all that, madam. You

18 explained it to Mr. Keegan and we understood what you

19 said. But did he undertake anything?

20 A. Whether he undertook anything, I don't know.

21 Q. No. I asked you did he say anything. That

22 was my question, madam.

23 A. When I asked him whether there would be any

24 consequences on me if I told the truth, he said, "No.

25 I want to know the truth." What he undertook, what he

Page 2398

1 did after that, I don't know.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your

3 Honour.

4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. When you were telling Mr. Keegan about your

6 personal experience with the guard whose name you

7 weren't able to remember --

8 A. I remember the name now.

9 Q. Very well. But Mr. Keegan will probably ask

10 you that question later on, so I'm not going to ask you

11 the name now.

12 You said that you said you were going to

13 report him, amongst others, to Mr. Meakic. Did you, in

14 fact, do that?

15 A. No. For purely safety reasons for myself. I

16 was afraid that something would happen to me afterwards

17 if I did.

18 Q. Madam, in the course of December, did you

19 make a detailed statement in 1994, a detailed statement

20 concerning the events related to Omarska and also to

21 this particular event?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you give that statement of your own free

24 will?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2399

1 Q. Or were you forced to under pressure of any

2 kind?

3 A. No, no pressure at all.

4 Q. Did you say that that young man was

5 disciplinary -- that there was a disciplinary matter

6 over him and that he was discarded from the camp?

7 A. No. Meakic found out, after this dismantling

8 itself, about this incident with this boy, and Velida

9 Mahmuljin told him about that event. I just want you

10 to know that.

11 Q. Yes, but let me ask you a concrete question.

12 A. Yes. Please go ahead.

13 Q. So at that time when you gave your statement,

14 you did not say that you reported this young man to

15 Mr. Meakic?

16 A. No, I did not, and I did not report him then.

17 Q. But did you report him at all?

18 A. Yes, afterwards, when Zeljko called me, and

19 that's when Velida reported the incident, not me.

20 Velida reported the incident, and then Zeljko called me

21 to come to him, and he wanted to hear my explanation of

22 what had happened.

23 Q. When was this?

24 A. It was just before the disbanding of the

25 camp, when Zeljko called the two of us to ask whether

Page 2400

1 we had had any problems, and I said no; Velida said

2 yes. And Velida then told him, Velida Mahmuljin.

3 Q. Do you know whether food was prepared?

4 A. I think it was prepared down in the workers'

5 kitchen. I think so. But it came ready made, ready

6 cooked.

7 Q. Do you know who was in charge of the cooking

8 of the meals, preparation of the meals?

9 A. No.

10 Q. During the time you spent there, and your

11 stay seems to be the longest, unfortunately, did you

12 happen to notice that in Omarska any health workers of

13 any kind came, nurses, doctors?

14 A. Yes, there was Dr. Ivic and there was a male

15 nurse. His name was Mico or something, a paramedic.

16 Q. How often would they come?

17 A. Well, I saw them just a few times, not often.

18 Q. Do you know an individual by the name of

19 Ljuban Andzic?

20 A. I don't remember him. He only came once,

21 when we women were away from -- discarded from the

22 camp. He came to that place down there where we were

23 located.

24 Q. Did he bring any medicines, medical aid,

25 hygiene, anything for hygiene, that kind of thing, with

Page 2401

1 him?

2 A. I don't remember.

3 Q. You mentioned a moment ago the women, the

4 cleaning women, cleaning ladies.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Were they members of the police or the

7 Omarska company?

8 A. No. They just wore civilian clothing. They

9 were just cleaning ladies. They had their own

10 clothes. I don't know what they belonged to, what they

11 were a part of.

12 Q. Tell me, please: In addition to these women,

13 were there any other civilians who would, on behalf of

14 the Omarska mine company, do any work there?

15 A. Yes. There was a maintenance man on duty.

16 He was in charge of the installations. There were

17 several mechanics. And they were drivers at the same

18 time.

19 Q. I'd now like to go back to a portion of your

20 testimony when you said that you saw Mr. Kvocka talking

21 to the guards, the policemen or the reserve police, and

22 that after this discussion they would go off, and that

23 you concluded that he had a certain status in the

24 hierarchy at Omarska; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2402

1 Q. Do you know the system of organisation of the

2 appointment -- nomination and appointment of

3 individuals within the police system?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you happen to have any knowledge

6 whatsoever of the fact that in this procedure -- all

7 right, you say you don't know the rules. That doesn't

8 matter. But the procedure, do you happen to know

9 whether Mr. Kvocka had any decision or ruling as to his

10 status? Do you happen to know that?

11 A. Well, I don't understand your question.

12 Could you repeat it, please?

13 Q. Well, I'll be short and precise. Do you know

14 whether Mr. Kvocka had a legal act, a legal document, a

15 ruling, a decision, an order -- we were talking about

16 the army -- by which he had a work post of some kind?

17 It doesn't matter what, but some kind of official work

18 post?

19 A. He was there.

20 Q. "There," you say. Very well. But do you

21 know whether he had any piece of paper assigning him to

22 any particular duty or post?

23 A. No, I don't.

24 Q. Did you personally ever -- I know that there

25 were scenes of this kind, but we're all here to

Page 2403

1 ascertain the truth. Did you personally ever see any

2 beatings, abuse, any -- and did you see Mr. Kvocka

3 standing by and not doing anything about it?

4 A. When these people, these prisoners, were

5 brought?

6 Q. Yes, the arrivals. You explained that. You

7 said where you were standing, what that looked like, so

8 let's not return to that. But were you ever present,

9 as a witness -- don't be so surprised. You're a

10 witness, so I have to ask you whether you saw.

11 Witnesses see, if you see what I mean. Did you ever

12 see Mr. Kvocka order anybody to abuse anybody else?

13 A. No.

14 Q. A moment ago you mentioned that you would

15 often go into the room on the first floor -- it doesn't

16 matter where it is exactly, but it would be opposite

17 your dormitories -- where it said -- up on the door it

18 had the -- it said "militia" on the door, a plaque

19 saying "militia" on the door?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, we both know the set-up of that

22 administration building. Was that the only door that

23 had "militia" written on it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And who were in the other rooms?

Page 2404

1 A. The investigators, or interrogators. Yes,

2 investigators.

3 Q. You said a moment ago that you would

4 frequently enter that room.

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. You made coffee as well?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. Could you tell us the dimensions and surface

9 area of the room, roughly? Roughly. I don't want

10 to -- you needn't worry. We don't need an exact

11 figure.

12 A. It was about 3 by 3 1/2 metres, or 3 by 4

13 metres. It was a small room. But there was furniture,

14 there were tables.

15 Q. So 3 by 3, or 3 by 4 metres, which means 10

16 or 12 square metres, approximately.

17 A. Yes, approximately.

18 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please: In that room,

19 what kind of furniture was there?

20 A. There were two tables with a couple of

21 chairs. There was like a glass cabinet. In the corner

22 there was like a bed, which was used by the people on

23 duty. And there was some sort of a communications

24 equipment, radio or transmitter. I don't know.

25 Something like that.

Page 2405

1 Q. This room, during the day, and we are talking

2 about the period when the investigators were there, the

3 interrogators, did any one of the personnel of the

4 Prijedor police station attend? Did they undertake any

5 kind of activities there?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Did you notice, among these teams coming from

8 Prijedor -- I'm talking about the investigating

9 teams -- were women among them?

10 A. There were two.

11 Q. Do you know their names?

12 A. One was called Nada Balaban.

13 Q. And the other?

14 A. Lakic, Rada, I think.

15 Q. Fine.

16 A. I think so. Her surname was Lakic.

17 Q. You don't remember the name Nada Markovski?

18 A. No, I don't know it.

19 Q. You frequently use the term "on duty," saying

20 that certain persons were on duty in that room.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Leaving aside all the other things, was

23 Mr. Kvocka among those who kept duty in that room?

24 A. I never went to that room when Kvocka was on

25 duty.

Page 2406

1 Q. Did Mr. Meakic have duty service in that

2 room?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You mentioned a loudspeaker system. Was

5 there any other communications equipment?

6 A. That is what I meant.

7 Q. You said a loudspeaker?

8 A. Yes. Maybe I misspoke.

9 Q. So it was a kind of radio station?

10 A. Yes. Some sort of communications equipment.

11 Q. Was anyone on duty there with that equipment?

12 A. Several times I was there when Zeljko Meakic

13 ordered a boy to be on duty there.

14 Q. Does that mean that somebody always had to be

15 in attendance there, to be reachable by communications?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You mentioned that Mr. Kvocka left Omarska.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you know the reason why he left?

20 A. If the information I received is correct, the

21 reason was his two or three brothers-in-law, the

22 brothers of his wife.

23 Q. What did you hear about them?

24 A. They were staying in his house, apparently,

25 and were later brought to Omarska.

Page 2407

1 Q. And then?

2 A. I don't know. He wasn't there anymore.

3 Q. I see. He wasn't there anymore. So when his

4 brothers-in-law returned, Mr. Kvocka's brothers-in-law,

5 he was no longer in the camp?

6 A. I didn't see him after that.

7 Q. There's just one further point that I -- and

8 I should like to quote from your statement:

9 "In the morning two women asked me in the

10 room why I was dirty and dishevelled. I lied to them.

11 But they knew that I was lying, so I told them what had

12 happened. I did report him, after all, and they

13 withdrew him from his employment."

14 A. That was the time I was taken out during the

15 first ten days of my stay in Omarska.

16 Q. Yes, but I asked you a moment ago whether you

17 reported him to Mr. Meakic, and here you explain that

18 in detail. But as our time is limited, may I ask you

19 once again: Did you report him to Mr. Meakic, and was

20 he punished by his removal, as you stated in this

21 statement, or what you said today?

22 A. What I said today; that is the truth.

23 Q. Thank you very much, madam. I have no

24 further questions. I would like you to forget this as

25 soon as possible and that we can all go back to

Page 2408

1 normal. Thank you.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

3 Mr. Simic. I think you took a little more than 20

4 minutes. Have you -- does that mean that you have

5 cross-examined for Mr. Fila as well? No. I see that

6 Mr. Fila is coming, so Mr. Simic hasn't taken his

7 time.

8 Mr. Fila, you have the floor.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Fila.

10 Microphone is not switched on.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Fila:

12 Q. You've had enough trouble. I don't want to

13 trouble you too much.

14 You mentioned that you knew Mr. Radic.

15 During your stay in Omarska, did he bring you some

16 food, pies and things?

17 A. He did.

18 Q. Did he treat you humanely?

19 A. He did.

20 Q. Was there a hot plate in the office where he

21 was working?

22 A. There was something for cooking coffee.

23 Q. Could you have coffee with him when he was

24 there?

25 A. Whenever I made coffee, I would get a cupful

Page 2409

1 as well.

2 Q. Was there a toilet or a bathroom upstairs, or

3 at least a toilet?

4 A. There was.

5 Q. Could you use it?

6 A. Yes, we did.

7 Q. Could that window be moved, or not?

8 A. Yes. It was opened like this, towards you.

9 Q. What could you see through that window?

10 A. You could see the area in front of the

11 garage.

12 Q. Where the buses halted, came to a stop?

13 A. Yes. That area could be seen.

14 Q. Could you use the toilet in the restaurant?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know somebody called Bozidar

17 Markovic?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Was there somebody you called your guardian

20 angel over there?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Who stood in front of the area where the

23 women were detained, by somebody's orders?

24 A. There was a position where there was a guard

25 watching over the women when we went to sleep. There

Page 2410

1 was a position there.

2 Q. Did you know that person as Bozidar Markovic?

3 A. No.

4 Q. The composition of the shifts -- you said

5 there were three of them -- was it always the same?

6 Did they switch from one shift to another? That is my

7 question.

8 A. Are you talking about the guards?

9 Q. Yes, the guards.

10 A. I don't remember. I don't know.

11 Q. Do you know who decided who would work in

12 which shift within the shift?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you think Radic could have determined

15 that?

16 A. No.

17 Q. If those people were in Radic's shift, such

18 as they were, did he select them?

19 A. Can I give an explanation in my opinion.

20 Q. I am not in a hurry, but we all are.

21 A. I think that Mladjo Radic was a policeman

22 before the war as well, and I think that all those boys

23 saw Radic as a more important person than Milojica and

24 Momir Gruban.

25 Q. That was not my question. Who designated

Page 2411

1 those boys to work with Mladjo? Did Mladjo do that?

2 Radic, could he say, "I want so-and-so to work in my

3 shift"?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. But you were talking about the authority of a

6 former policeman, of a regular policeman?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When this incident occurred with the beating

9 and bread falling out, (redacted), where were you

10 when you complained to Mladjo Radic?

11 A. In the kitchen. In the kitchen. It wasn't

12 just that incident. It wasn't just that. But we spoke

13 in the kitchen. That's what I'm saying.

14 Q. Did you have any negative consequences as a

15 result of your complaint?

16 A. I did.

17 Q. From him?

18 A. No, no. But what was happening to those

19 people. It was so painful.

20 Q. No, no. My question is: The fact that you

21 complained to him, did you personally have any negative

22 consequences as a result of complaining to Mladjo

23 Radic?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Why didn't you complain to him about this

Page 2412

1 Soskan then? If his name was Soskan.

2 A. First of all, I wanted to forget about it as

3 soon as possible. I didn't want to think about it. He

4 was a young man. I could have almost been his mother.

5 So I wanted to reject the whole incident.

6 Q. But the reason wasn't that you feared Mladjo

7 Radic and the consequences upon you?

8 A. No, no.

9 Q. Where were you when you saw that event on

10 St. Peter's Day?

11 A. In the restaurant. I'd like to show it to

12 you.

13 Q. Was it in the restaurant?

14 A. No, no.

15 Q. Mr. Keegan promised to bring a pointer and he

16 hasn't.

17 A. That night when it happened, I left my room.

18 Q. When you say "room," tell us where that is.

19 A. On the upper floor where we slept. I passed

20 by the room where the other women slept. I entered the

21 office where the guard post was for the guard watching

22 the women and there was no one there, and I entered --

23 I'd love to show it to you. Then I entered this first

24 room for interrogation. I looked through the window,

25 because this had already been shown to me. I went

Page 2413

1 through the window to where the machine-gun was next to

2 the wall, and that is how I saw it.

3 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, if I might --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

5 MR. KEEGAN: Sorry. I thought I turned it

6 on. I think Exhibit 3/28, which is a photograph of the

7 buildings from the outside, might assist Mr. Fila, and

8 she can use that on the ELMO to point where she was.

9 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I just

10 didn't wish to waist time.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila

12 has already gone over that. But thank you very much,

13 Mr. Keegan, anyway.

14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as

15 there was no identification of the accused, may I ask

16 the witness whether she recognises Mladjo Radic in this

17 courtroom and who he is?

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

19 Mr. Keegan?

20 MR. KEEGAN: We have no objection, Your

21 Honour.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I have seen

23 the witness recognise him very well, but go ahead,

24 Mr. Fila.

25 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

Page 2414

1 Q. If you have recognised him, there's no need.

2 A. Yes, of course I know him.

3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] That's all. Thank

4 you, Your Honour. I've finished.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

6 very much, Mr. Fila.

7 Objection?

8 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

9 towards the end of Mr. Fila's cross, you said that the

10 witness had recognised the accused well. However, we

11 expect the Prosecution to show the photo board on which

12 the witness did not positively identify Mr. Kvocka.

13 Thank you.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, I

15 apologise. Please come back and carry out the formal

16 recognition by Witness B of Mr. Radic. That is clear.

17 I think there is something non-verbal that is

18 an English body language which is very clear, but

19 please go ahead, Mr. Fila, from the formal standpoint,

20 but we Judges are watching with attention. At least I

21 speak on my own behalf.

22 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Madam, will you please tell us, from the

24 door, not counting the gentlemen in uniform, who is

25 Mladjo Radic?

Page 2415

1 A. The first man next to the man in uniform.

2 Q. Just one more question. Did you see or hear

3 him after you left Omarska?

4 A. I called him once. I just asked them how

5 they were. It was just a formality. And I saw him

6 after his arrest, on television.

7 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you very

8 much.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.

10 Mr. Jovan Simic.

11 MR. J. SIMIC: We have no questions, Your

12 Honour.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Your

14 colleagues have done the work for you. So that's

15 good.

16 Mr. Keegan, do you have any re-examination,

17 please?

18 MR. KEEGAN: Yes. Just briefly please.

19 Re-examined by Mr. Keegan:

20 Q. Witness B, you were asked questions by Mr.

21 Simic regarding Mr. Zoran Delic and whether he was only

22 present in the camp when food was served. Now, were

23 you ever interrogated in Omarska camp?

24 A. Yes. I was the last to be interrogated in

25 the Omarska camp.

Page 2416

1 MR. K. SIMIC: Objection, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What is

3 your objection, Mr. Simic?

4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] My objection,

5 Mr. President, is that in the course of the

6 cross-examination, neither Mr. Fila nor I mentioned the

7 witness' interrogation.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

9 Mr. Keegan.

10 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour, I agree.

11 However, if my colleague will allow me, I was laying a

12 foundation to see who was present at the interrogation,

13 and that was the only question I was going to ask.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but

15 Mr. Keegan -- no. Go on to another question, please.

16 MR. KEEGAN: I'll make it more clear, Your

17 Honour.

18 Q. Did you see Zoran Delic at anyplace in the

19 camp other than the kitchen?

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.

21 Okay.

22 A. Yes. He was there when I was being

23 interrogated.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] There you

25 are, Mr. Simic. You can learn a little. There's

Page 2417

1 always a way of getting round things. So formalities

2 are always a little complicated. This is a good

3 example.

4 Thank you, Mr. Keegan. Please proceed.


6 Q. You were asked questions by Mr. Simic about

7 Zeljko Meakic's reaction when you reported to him that

8 the prisoners had been beaten on that day that you

9 described here in the courtroom, not that they were on

10 strike, and you were asked, "Did he say anything?" or

11 that he undertook any action.

12 Did the beatings at lunch, at the meal time,

13 continue after your conversations with Mr. Meakic, that

14 is, for the remaining time in the camp?

15 A. After this conversation with Mr. Meakic, it

16 was a little, a little better. There were less

17 beatings, less mistreatment, and even they gave them a

18 little more time to enter, eat, and get out.

19 Q. Now, Witness B, how long were you in the

20 camp? Until what date?

21 A. Until the 23rd of August, 1991 -- 1992. I'm

22 sorry, 1992.

23 Q. Do you recall -- in your testimony earlier,

24 you referred to the visit of the journalists and that

25 the women were not allowed to be present.

Page 2418

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you recall the date of that visit?

3 A. No.

4 Q. You referred to a conversation with Zeljko

5 Meakic when he asked you and Velida Mahmuljin if you'd

6 had any problems in the camp.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You indicated that was at the end of your

9 stay in the camp.

10 A. Yes. He called the two of us, as I said.

11 They asked us whether we had any problems, because we

12 had spent the longest period of time there, whether we

13 had problems, mistreatment. I said no. However,

14 Velida told him about the incident when she was taken

15 out and everything that happened.

16 Q. Now, this conversation, was this just prior

17 to you leaving the camp on 23 August, 1992?

18 A. Yes. It was just before the camp was

19 disbanded or, rather, when people were divided up into

20 groups, first, second, and third category of

21 detainees.

22 Q. Earlier you talked about there was a change

23 in conditions near the end of the time in the camp.

24 Are you able to say with certainty whether those

25 changes occurred at any time before the journalists

Page 2419

1 visited or after? Can you say with certainty?

2 A. I can say with certainty after the visit of

3 journalists.

4 Q. Mr. Fila asked you some questions about

5 Mladjo Radic's shift, and you indicated that the boys,

6 as you called them, saw Radic as a more important

7 person because he'd been a regular policeman before the

8 war.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. If one of those guards was abusing a detainee

11 and Mladjo Radic ordered him to stop, in your

12 opinion --

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me.

14 Mr. Fila, what is your objection?

15 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] The question is

16 being repeated. It has been asked; if Mladjo Radic

17 ordered, what would have happen, and you have that in

18 the transcript, asked and answered. The question is

19 being repeated in order to obtain a different answer.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, and

21 the answer was that they would obey. So I remember

22 that. You have the answer, Mr. Keegan.

23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Not all. Not

24 all.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

Page 2420

1 Thank you.

2 Mr. Keegan, go on, please. Don't repeat the

3 question. Go on to another question. You know how to

4 do that.

5 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. I wasn't

6 going to ask the same question. I was asking a very

7 specific, following up on the information which the

8 witness now elicited on cross-examination.

9 Q. If Mladjo Radic was present when a guard was

10 abusing a detainee and Mladjo Radic ordered him to

11 stop, in your opinion, would that guard stop?

12 A. I believe he would, because after all, Mladjo

13 Radic was responsible, and I think he had some kind of

14 way of influencing the members of his shift.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, I

16 saw you on your feet. What is the objection?

17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] These are all

18 assumptions. If he had been present, if he had seen,

19 if there had been a beating, if he had ordered what

20 would have happened. This is in meteorology, in the

21 weather forecast and not in practice, legal practice.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In a sense

23 you are right, if it is a hypothesis -- it is a

24 hypothesis, but you know well that the Judges may know

25 how to make a distinction between when something was

Page 2421

1 done and when something is a hypothesis and when the

2 witness gives only opinion. So the Judges know how to

3 make a distinction.

4 He was trying to find out who would obey and

5 who would not obey, but it is a hypothesis.

6 Mr. Keegan, so go on to the matter directly with clear

7 and concise questions. That is what I keep repeating.

8 Please.


10 Q. Witness B, you were also asked some questions

11 about whether there was any medical personnel who

12 visited the camp. You referred to Dr. Ivic and a

13 medical technician Mico, who had one arm. When you saw

14 them in the camp, what were they doing?

15 A. They would come there. They would go to the

16 police room. I didn't see them treating anyone. I

17 didn't see them giving them any kind of medical aid

18 that they might need. I didn't see them check up on

19 the health of the prisoners. I didn't see any of those

20 things done.

21 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, could we now have

22 shown to the witness what we have marked as Exhibit

23 3/89A and B, which is the Witness' 1994 statement

24 that's been referred to in cross-examination.

25 Q. Witness B, you have there a statement in both

Page 2422

1 the English and Bosnian languages. If you can look on

2 the English-language version one. Does your statement

3 appear on the first page of that document? I'm sorry,

4 does your signature appear? Excuse me.

5 A. Yes, quite obvious it is mine.

6 Q. And do you recall giving this statement to

7 members of the Tribunal?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. And I believe it was already elicited on

10 cross-examination that you gave that statement freely

11 and voluntarily.

12 A. In Keraterm.

13 Q. No, no.

14 A. Or in Omarska.

15 Q. This statement in front of you.

16 A. Oh, I see. Yes. Yes, I did, yes.

17 Q. And can you look at the last page of the

18 English version, please, and indicate if your signature

19 also appears there on the acknowledgement?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, we would offer

22 Exhibit 39 -- oh, not yet. Sorry, Your Honour. We

23 should conclude your questions, first.

24 That's all I have.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan,

Page 2423

1 perhaps I should have taken this into consideration

2 earlier on, but you sent us Exhibit 3/88A, B, and C,

3 but I don't think you used Exhibit C.

4 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, I believe the

5 witness described that the pictures were of the house;

6 and specifically, one was of the street, one was of the

7 house before the war, and one was after, when it was

8 destroyed. I believe that's in the record.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

10 Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.

11 JUDGE WALD: Sorry, Mr. Keegan. You just

12 asked to have admitted the witness's whole statement,

13 which is a long statement with a lot of material in

14 it. I don't even what know -- we don't have any

15 underlined portions or any indicated portions. I don't

16 know what part of it you're suggesting and for what

17 reason you think it should be admitted. You certainly

18 are familiar with the debate, which we'll consider at

19 greater length at the Status Conference, as to whether

20 or not, when you have one contradiction, you can get an

21 entire witness's statement in, or whether it's only

22 allowed in for the purpose of illustrating the

23 contradiction. So maybe, at least for me, you can

24 elucidate on what basis you're admitting that long

25 statement.

Page 2424

1 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. I pulled back

2 from that because I recall that we were supposed to

3 wait until, indeed, after your questions to actually

4 offer the admissions, and I would have carried out the

5 full discussion then. I'm happy to do it now if you'd

6 like.

7 JUDGE WALD: Well, it's just a brief,

8 because, I mean --

9 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, at this point there

10 is no decision on that issue.

11 JUDGE WALD: That's right.

12 MR. KEEGAN: Under our rules, of course here

13 at the Tribunal, the Judges are free to consider all

14 relevant evidence. It's up to you to decide what part

15 of that statement you would find relevant once you make

16 your decision. It's our position if they challenge a

17 witness on a statement, they can't escape the

18 inevitable by failing to show that witness the

19 statement and ask them if they agree if that's what it

20 says -- indeed, they don't even do -- to then try and

21 use that as an excuse to keep the whole statement out.

22 JUDGE WALD: No, I understand the whole

23 statement, but obviously you're also familiar with the

24 practice in many jurisdictions with which we're both

25 familiar, that you identify the portion that you want

Page 2425

1 to put in to show what's relevant or why their

2 particular portion was not the only one that was

3 relevant. But you don't get to put in a book.

4 MR. KEEGAN: That is true, Your Honour, but

5 I'm also aware in those same jurisdictions there's a

6 rule of completeness.

7 JUDGE WALD: That's correct.

8 MR. KEEGAN: And the Court can then decide

9 what parts it may or may not accept. And I'm also

10 aware that in other jurisdictions in the world, in fact

11 the whole statement would be considered, because it's

12 all part of the witness's evidence. And so I think

13 that obviously is a decision that will have to be made

14 by this Chamber at a later date, when we have the full

15 discussion, and of course at that point the Chamber can

16 then decide what, if any, portions it's going to give

17 weight to or accept as full evidence.

18 JUDGE WALD: Well, it certainly would have

19 been helpful if you would have indicated.

20 MR. KEEGAN: I was going to, but at the end,

21 Your Honour. I pulled it back because I realised I was

22 out of sequence.

23 JUDGE WALD: Okay.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

25 Now we move to the Judges' questions.

Page 2426

1 Mr. Simic, we are passing on to the Judges'

2 questions.

3 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

4 I have --

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The accused

6 cannot speak here. They will be given an opportunity

7 to speak. But I have noted on several occasions there

8 has been communication between the accused and the

9 counsel. The counsel know very well, full well, what

10 their duty is. Mr. Simic.

11 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

12 the Defence at this point wishes to tender documents

13 which it has received from the Prosecution. They are

14 incomplete, however. One document shows that the lady,

15 B, Witness B, did not make a positive identification of

16 Mr. Kvocka, regardless of the meetings and the events

17 she has recounted. But we only have the photos of

18 other -- boards of other individuals, and that is

19 why --

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

21 I apologise for interrupting. I do apologise. Perhaps

22 I'll be a little harsh on you, but do you know what it

23 means, work organisation, and how to organise work? We

24 have just said that we're going to treat the tendering

25 of documents in the file at the end of Judges'

Page 2427

1 questions. Have you understood that?

2 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you

3 very much. Thank you.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So please

5 do respect our moment, the Judges' question time, and I

6 give the floor to Judge Riad.

7 Questioned by the Court:

8 JUDGE RIAD: Witness B, good afternoon. I

9 would like to get some more clarifications from you, if

10 you can. After listening carefully to your very clear

11 testimony, I wanted to -- I gathered from your

12 testimony that several people were really in command of

13 the camp. First, you said that Kvocka was treated

14 as -- I'll try to find your words, but it doesn't

15 matter -- as responsible of the commandment and had

16 important functions in the camp, and that the guards

17 called him "chief."

18 Then, when you spoke about Prcac, you said

19 that he had the same functions as Kvocka, and also you

20 said that Meakic affirmed, I think, when you asked him,

21 affirmed that Prcac was the commander of the camp and

22 that he was the head of the security. So could you --

23 then can I -- can we understand from that there are

24 three commanders equal, which are Kvocka, and which are

25 Prcac, and which are Meakic? Is that what you said or

Page 2428

1 what I understood? On equal footing?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the witness,

3 please.

4 JUDGE RIAD: But Radic was not among them?

5 A. No. I said that during my time there --

6 could you repeat the first name you mentioned? Zeljko

7 Meakic -- Miroslav Kvocka, yes. Miroslav Kvocka.

8 During the Kvocka Miroslav time, I said that he said

9 the function for which Zeljko Meakic told me after, for

10 Drago Prcac, who had come to replace Miroslav Kvocka.

11 JUDGE RIAD: So he replaced Kvocka, and Radic

12 was less than them?

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE RIAD: But Radic was the head of a

15 team, head of a shift?

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE RIAD: And he was obeyed by this

18 shift? That's a question. Was he obeyed by the shift?

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE RIAD: Now, this shift, there was this

21 Predojevic who apparently was violent, more violent

22 than the others, was this man some kind of above the

23 law, or was he acting in line with all this -- with the

24 policy of the whole team?

25 A. I don't know what policy this refers to, but

Page 2429

1 all I know is that that young man was a raging animal

2 in the camp.

3 JUDGE RIAD: Now, this leads me to the second

4 question. Do you think any of these people, whether

5 the commanders, Kvocka, Prcac, or Radic, if they said

6 no, if they asked for someone to stop, would they be

7 obeyed?

8 A. I think they would, but that is just my

9 assumption, that they would.

10 JUDGE RIAD: Were there incidents where they

11 asked somebody to stop, or somebody to do something, or

12 incidents where they were not obeyed?

13 A. No. I didn't notice that at all, had they

14 said "No" or "Don't do that." I didn't see that ever.

15 JUDGE RIAD: So in other words, none of the

16 people in control interfered to stop any beating or

17 torture, or whatever happened?

18 A. No.

19 JUDGE RIAD: Now, my other question is

20 concerned -- I'm sorry to ask you -- this abuse you

21 mentioned. Were there other ladies abused, apart from

22 the experience which happened to you?

23 A. It's difficult to say for another woman,

24 another person, woman. And it is not up to me. I

25 cannot speak for other women. Can I say something

Page 2430

1 now?

2 JUDGE RIAD: Go ahead.

3 A. There were those who were abused.

4 JUDGE RIAD: Because you mentioned the

5 example of Velida, but you didn't go ahead -- you said

6 that you concluded from her silence and her pain that

7 she was abused.

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE RIAD: Then you mentioned also that

10 when you went by mistake -- I think it was by

11 mistake -- to Radic's room, he told you he was waiting

12 for Jadranka.

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE RIAD: [Previous translation continues]

15 ... Jadranka, and what did you gather from that?

16 A. Well, that Jadranka was in the same situation

17 as I was. She was a prisoner. Whether she came there

18 or not, I don't know.

19 JUDGE RIAD: But you said he told you

20 something about her.

21 A. Yes. Do you want me to repeat it?

22 JUDGE RIAD: Yes, please, if it gives any

23 clarity.

24 A. Well, he said something along these lines:

25 that he was waiting for Jadranka to get his own back on

Page 2431

1 her. Now, what kind of retribution, I don't know.

2 It's difficult for me to say. And I'm a woman. It's

3 not simple for me to talk about things like that.

4 JUDGE RIAD: Was she a prisoner, Jadranka?

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE RIAD: That's all. Now, there is

7 finally just a question. One of the pictures, 3/70D,

8 with an old man walking, going into the restaurant, a

9 man who could be in a very advanced age. Did they have

10 old people in the camp?

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE RIAD: What age?

13 A. Well, judging by their appearance, they were

14 about between 65 and 70 years old. And this is obvious

15 from the photograph.

16 JUDGE RIAD: It's obvious that the man is

17 much older than that. So they might get older in the

18 camp.

19 A. The conditions of the camp.

20 JUDGE RIAD: Were there children?

21 A. There were minors as well. Yes, under age.

22 JUDGE RIAD: Under age. What do you call

23 "under age"?

24 A. Under the age of 18.

25 JUDGE RIAD: Under the age of 18. Thank you

Page 2432

1 very much, Witness B.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

3 Judge Riad.

4 Madam Judge Wald has the floor.

5 JUDGE WALD: I have only one question. In

6 the beginning of your testimony, when you said that

7 your neighbours, who had been listening to the radio,

8 said that instructions had come to go on, to abandon

9 their homes and move on to the centre of the village,

10 did your neighbours tell you that those instructions on

11 the radio came from any particular source? Was it

12 military, was it civilian? Was it the Serbs who were

13 taken over? Was it the old TO? How did the source

14 identify itself, if you know?

15 A. That information came via Radio Prijedor.

16 JUDGE WALD: But it didn't say -- did you

17 know at that time, or did they know, who controlled

18 Radio Prijedor at that time?

19 A. I don't know that.

20 JUDGE WALD: All right. Thank you.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness B,

22 I have just one question to ask you. The Prosecutor

23 asked you their questions, the Defence asked you

24 questions. Is there anything that you should like to

25 say which hasn't been raised yet, which nobody has

Page 2433

1 asked you yet, and you'd like to talk about?

2 A. There are a lot of things that I'd like to

3 say in conclusion, but I find it very difficult.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Take your

5 time, Witness. We have great respect for the suffering

6 you have had, all of us here. So please do take your

7 time and feel at ease.

8 A. Your Honours, I shall try, nonetheless, to

9 say something. After all the tragedies that happened

10 over there, it is very difficult for me to say, and I

11 can never say that I'm happy or will be happy. I lost

12 my father, I lost my sister. My daughter has great

13 difficulties after everything, and so do I myself. I

14 have a lot of problems. I'm just asking myself who had

15 the right to take me from my home, from my country too,

16 so that I am a refugee, a displaced person in the

17 world? Who had the right to do all this? And I hope

18 that nonetheless the person who did that will be

19 punished, both by God and by you, and that you will

20 give them just sentence for what they did. So much for

21 me. Thank you.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

23 Witness B. We are here to try and do that, and

24 independently of the responsible people, all the things

25 that happened to you and to the other people, we do not

Page 2434

1 differentiate between ethnicity and nationality. We

2 know that everybody suffered in one way or another.

3 But we shall do our utmost to do something. And you

4 yourself have given your own contribution, and let me

5 say, you did it courageously, and we should like to

6 express our deep gratitude to you for your coming

7 here. You can stay there, before you leave, to put the

8 protective measures in place.

9 And in the meantime, we shall be tendering

10 documents and exhibits.

11 Mr. Usher, the witness remains where she is.

12 I think that if we draw the blinds, that the witness

13 could leave the courtroom.

14 Because, madam, I think you should have a

15 good rest now. Thank you once again for coming,

16 Witness B.

17 THE WITNESS: Thank you too, Your Honours.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Admission

20 into evidence. First of all, I should like to say that

21 I have noticed that one of the accused communicated

22 aloud with the counsel, and I have said that he has no

23 right to do that. You understood the context. Of

24 course, the accused can communicate with the Defence,

25 but the Chamber can prevent it from being done in that

Page 2435

1 manner. And I think that the accused understand what I

2 meant. So I have nothing further to say.

3 As for admission into evidence, Mr. Keegan,

4 please.

5 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour. The

6 Prosecution would offer into evidence Exhibits 3/27 and

7 3/24 [sic], which were the photos of Keraterm Camp;

8 Exhibit 3/31, which was the photograph of the man with

9 the bruises; Exhibit 3/70A through D, which was the

10 four photographs of the prisoners going in to get the

11 meal and leaving the canteen; Exhibit 3/69A and B,

12 which were the photographs of Mladjo Radic and Drazenko

13 Predojevic, and the uniforms; exhibit 3/88A, B, and C,

14 which were the photographs of the witness' house; and

15 Exhibit 3/89A and B, the witness' statement.

16 I'm advised, Your Honour, that the transcript

17 said "3/24" for one of the photographs for Keraterm.

18 It should be 3/34. So 27 and 34.

19 Unless I'm corrected by my colleagues, Your

20 Honour, I think that's all of the exhibits.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan,

22 just to speed things up, you understood well, I think,

23 what Mr. Simic is going to ask, the document you are

24 familiar with. To speed things up, can you tell us

25 something straight away? Can you respond before

Page 2436

1 Mr. Simic?

2 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. We provided

3 the Defence all relevant photo boards which any of the

4 witnesses have viewed, and we have no objection if the

5 Defence wants to offer the photo boards and the

6 documents which indicate the results of those photo

7 boards. So we have no objection.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me,

9 Mr. Simic, for going ahead a little, but I think we

10 understood what your motion was. So do you have any

11 objection to the admission of the exhibits tendered by

12 the Prosecution and your own suggestion?

13 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

14 I speak only in my own name. Regarding all the

15 exhibits, that is, photographs, we have no objections.

16 However, as regards the admission of the statements of

17 Witness B, we do have an objection, because in the

18 materials, we received another statement in B/C/S.

19 There is no date or anything else. This is a statement

20 that differs considerably, and it was not tendered by

21 the Prosecution today. It has a number on it but not a

22 proper exhibit number.

23 As for our suggestion to tender documents, it

24 is true that the Prosecution has been providing us

25 photo boards for identification. Unfortunately, as far

Page 2437

1 as Witness B is concerned, we were given a list of all

2 persons who did carry out identification, and on this

3 list it is clearly evident that Witness B did not

4 recognise Mr. Kvocka on the photograph offered to her.

5 However --

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

7 are you asking for this document to be admitted? Don't

8 make any allegations about the document; just ask for

9 its admission. Do you understand the distinction?

10 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I do, Your

11 Honour. But I want to tell you, Your Honour, that the

12 Prosecution did not give us the photo board linked to

13 this case, this identification, so we can only tender

14 as evidence a list confirming -- or a document

15 confirming that Witness B did not identify Mr. Kvocka.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan,

17 any objection to the admission of 3/99A and B,

18 statement of the witness? And why did the Defence not

19 receive this document, as Mr. Simic has just told us?

20 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, at this time I

21 cannot confirm that the Defence did not receive it.

22 This has been an ongoing problem, Your Honour. We have

23 recently sent letters to the Defence reminding them we

24 have the obligation to disclose. When we do disclose,

25 we provide receipts which we request the Defence to

Page 2438

1 sign and return, and if they are not provided with

2 something on the list, to note that on the receipt.

3 Unfortunately, the Defence counsel, in

4 large -- well, in almost all circumstances, have failed

5 to return these receipts. So until they do so, we

6 can't confirm whether they received something or not.

7 We will certainly provide another copy to the

8 Court and allow for its admission into evidence at the

9 next hearing if Mr. Simic, in fact, can confirm he did

10 not receive it. We would be happy to do that. But

11 although, of course, we have the obligation to

12 disclose, we believe they have the obligation to

13 account.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.

15 Mr. Simic was speaking in his own name. I still

16 haven't heard the reaction of the other Defence counsel

17 regarding the admission of these exhibits.

18 Mr. Nikolic's team. Mr. O'Sullivan.

19 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, if I might, just

20 before Mr. O'Sullivan speaks. With respect to the

21 issue raised by Mr. Simic about another statement, he

22 was at liberty to offer it and we certainly have no

23 objection to its admission, the second statement that

24 he's referred to. Once we can see the document and, in

25 fact, see that it is the statement of Witness B, we

Page 2439

1 would have no objection to its admission.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

3 Mr. O'Sullivan.

4 Just a moment, please, Mr. Krstan Simic.

5 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, with regards to

6 all the exhibits, with the exception of Witness B's

7 statement, we have no objections. We do object to a

8 procedure by which previous out-of-court statements are

9 admitted in their entirety.

10 Your Honours, I submit that previous

11 statements used during cross-examination and put to a

12 witness for confrontation are used for impeachment

13 purposes only, and in my submission, they're

14 admissible -- their admissibility is limited to the

15 impeachment, and the statement in it's entirety is not

16 admissible.

17 The procedure I've just described was used in

18 the Celebici trial. I submit it should be adopted and

19 followed in these proceedings. It's good law in this

20 Tribunal, it's sound law, and it ensures that Your

21 Honours can make a fair determination of the issues.

22 The Trial Chamber hears a witness viva voce,

23 and if that witness is confronted with a previous

24 out-of-court statement, that can allow Your Honours to

25 judge issues such as credibility of that witness and

Page 2440

1 weight you accord to his or her testimony.

2 So our submission is that witness statements

3 used during cross-examination are admissible for the

4 limited purposes of impeachment and for no other

5 reason. Those are my submissions on this point.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.

7 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

8 without repeating what has just been said, I support

9 what Mr. O'Sullivan has said, as well as the position I

10 presented yesterday, that if a statement is admitted,

11 then it applies only to the person who cross-examined

12 and not to the other Defence counsel.

13 I also object to the admission of

14 Exhibit 3/31. It is a photograph of a man with

15 something red all over his body. I never saw such a

16 red-coloured body, and I don't know whether this is red

17 paint or whether these are really bruises. And where

18 would it end if we were all to bring photographs of

19 this kind to the courtroom.

20 On several occasions, this Trial Chamber has

21 referred to its intelligence and the intelligence of

22 all of us, and I'm sure all of us know what bruises

23 look like, and they don't look like this. Not as red

24 as this, anyway. Therefore, I object in principle.

25 I have admitted that there were beatings in

Page 2441

1 the Omarska camp. So let me make it clear: There were

2 bruises, but tendering this type of evidence will not

3 lead us anywhere. I am not denying that you are right,

4 that there were beatings, but I do object to this

5 photograph. Thank you.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But excuse

7 me, Mr. Fila. You accept the admission of this

8 document, coupled with your reservations?

9 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] If I am told where

10 this photograph was taken, who is on the photograph.

11 Did he belonged to Omarska?

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Tosic.

13 Please don't repeat what others have said, if

14 possible.

15 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Of course, Your

16 Honour. I'll do my best. We have no objection to the

17 admission of the documents tendered by the Prosecution,

18 except we support colleague O'Sullivan and my learned

19 friend Mr. Fila, without repeating what they have

20 said. And secondly, also regarding Mr. Simic's

21 tendering of documents, because from the exhibit, it is

22 clear that Witness B did not recognise our client, and

23 as this is the same document where our client is

24 mentioned, we too would like to support Mr. Simic's

25 suggestion that that list of identification be

Page 2442

1 admitted.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

3 Mr. Tosic.

4 Mr. Jovan Simic.

5 MR. J. SIMIC: Your Honour, we're opposed to

6 the admission of the statement, and we support the

7 objections of our colleague O'Sullivan and Mr. Fila.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

9 very much, Mr. Jovan Simic. I think Mr. Krstan Simic

10 had something to add, but before I give the floor to

11 Mr. Keegan, I had a feeling you had something to add,

12 Mr. Krstan Simic.

13 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

14 just one sentence. I would ask that a photo board for

15 Mr. Kvocka be attached to this. Mr. Zigic is there

16 too. We have the photo boards, but we do not have the

17 photo board for Mr. Kvocka, so could it be attached?

18 Your Honour, I have a feeling that there's

19 some confusion here. It is not disputed that the

20 Prosecution has disclosed to us a report and three

21 photo boards linked to the identification of certain

22 persons. Also, the Prosecution has disclosed to us

23 another document with a list of all the persons who

24 were identified, and under number 21, Witness B

25 confirmed that she did not recognise Mr. Kvocka.

Page 2443

1 However, the technical problem is that the only

2 document lacking is the photo board, and we appeal to

3 the Prosecution to attach that photo board and then

4 there will be no confusion and no problems. The

5 problem will be solved.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan,

7 I was thinking that since we're already late, perhaps

8 we can admit all the uncontested documents and then we

9 can take up the matter when we resume the hearings

10 during the discussion. Perhaps that would be better.

11 So if you can give us an idea of your

12 response, because there was some concrete matters

13 requested by Mr. Simic, otherwise, we will not go on

14 with this debate.

15 Do you agree with this plan at first glance,

16 with this suggestion?

17 MR. KEEGAN: I believe, Your Honour, that

18 Ms. Hollis would like to answer this.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

20 Ms. Hollis.

21 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, we agree with your

22 suggestion. The concrete plan regarding the specific

23 exhibits that Mr. Simic is requesting, the Defence were

24 given a variety of affidavits from the chief

25 investigator of Team 1, indicating that in certain

Page 2444

1 circumstances, photo boards were not kept when a

2 witness failed to identify someone. The affidavits

3 also indicated that there was a failure to identify.

4 Now, again because we don't know, based on

5 Mr. Simic's assertions alone, whether he received that

6 document or not, and I haven't had sufficient time to

7 go through our receipts to see if he did receive it, I

8 can't at this moment say whether he was given that

9 affidavit. It is my understanding that those

10 affidavits were severed on Defence counsel, and

11 certainly reports were served on them to show that

12 there were failures to identify these individuals. So

13 I will verify that those were served. To the extent

14 that they were not, I will certainly make them

15 available, but it's my understanding that they were

16 served. And we agree that the issue of these

17 statements is an issue that should be taken up at a

18 later time, because we believe that it is a significant

19 issue and would warrant some discussion.

20 So we do agree that things that are not

21 contested would be admitted at this time, and we would

22 deal with contested matters at the next hearing.

23 We would, perhaps, take this opportunity to

24 ask the Court to perhaps make their position known

25 about whether they would ask the Defence to please make

Page 2445

1 an effort to check the material we give them, sign the

2 receipts in a timely fashion, return them to us, and

3 tell us what's missing. We don't think that's unfair.

4 We do believe, in fact, that's an obligation. We go to

5 great trouble to give them very itemised receipts and

6 they very seldom return them. Some return them much

7 more frequently than others and we appreciate that, but

8 for the most part, we haven't gotten them back, and

9 that makes it easier for them to stand up and say, "We

10 were never given it." So we would ask for some

11 assistance with that perhaps.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we're

13 admitting into evidence the exhibits that were not

14 contested, and the others, we will resume the

15 discussion on them at a later stage. I'm saying this

16 because we don't have time to continue this

17 discussion. I hope you understand.

18 Before adjourning, I should like to follow on

19 what Ms. Hollis has just said, to see whether you have

20 indeed received or not something. Maybe this is

21 something we should discuss at a Status Conference,

22 that is, the organisation of work by the Defence,

23 because in my opinion, allow me to speak very frankly,

24 there is a lot to be done outside the courtroom, and I

25 fear that the Defence will one day come and say, "We

Page 2446

1 need time to do such-and-such a thing."

2 As far as the Prosecution is concerned, I

3 wish to tell you that we really have to think over all

4 the initial ideas about summaries, seven days' advanced

5 notice, et cetera, et cetera. We really must make sure

6 that the Defence has received, seven days in advance,

7 lists of witnesses and these things, and this is a

8 reciprocal issue. It applies to both sides.

9 As we're going to have a recess in this case,

10 I should like to think that this stage was truly

11 exceptional. I would like us to resume the case with a

12 completely different dynamics, when things will flow

13 easily, when everyone will accomplish its duties of a

14 disclosure.

15 You know that we have come to the conclusion

16 that we must make a distinction between the time for

17 the hearings, precisely to respect witnesses coming

18 here. When I talk about witnesses, I always say that

19 the Defence or the Prosecution, be they Serb, Croats,

20 or others, they are persons who come here, and I wish

21 to tell you that the Chamber will be extremely vigilant

22 regarding the respect we owe the witnesses and which we

23 must guarantee to them. And in order to respect those

24 witnesses, we must really make the best of the time for

25 the hearings and separate the time for our own

Page 2447

1 discussions.

2 I do not wish to interrupt you, but we must

3 organise the way we speak. Otherwise, you yourself

4 will understand that we will not achieve our goals.

5 The first day of the next hearings, I'm

6 telling you that we will be having a Status Conference

7 a day or two later, which is necessary to regulate the

8 conduct of the proceedings.

9 I just now wish to wish you all the best in

10 your work -- we are all going to work and not rest --

11 and have a good weekend, all of you.

12 I must now thank the interpreters and the

13 technical booth for agreeing, though involuntarily, to

14 work overtime. But in any event, I thank you all for

15 making your services available for us to finish our

16 work today. Thank you.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

18 at 3.38 p.m., to be reconvened on

19 Monday, the 5th day of June, 2000

20 at 9.30 a.m.