Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2448

1 Monday, 5 June 2000

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.37 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam

7 Registrar, do we only have two accused with us this

8 morning?

9 THE REGISTRAR: We are still waiting for

10 another three -- another two.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we're

12 still waiting, I think, for the other three accused.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, another three.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

15 You may be seated. When the other accused

16 come, they will be able to take their seats as well.

17 So the accused may feel free to sit down. You can hear

18 me now, I think. I said that you could sit down.

19 [The accused entered court]

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be

21 seated, Mr. Kvocka.

22 [The accused entered court]

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be

24 seated.

25 Good morning to you all, ladies and

Page 2449

1 gentlemen; good morning to the technical booth, the

2 interpreters. I think they're all there. Good morning

3 to the court reporters and legal assistants. Good

4 morning, one and all.

5 I think that after this pause that we've had

6 we should bring us up to date, so shall we have the

7 case called out, please, Madam Registrar, to begin

8 with.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-30/1-T, the

10 Prosecutor versus Kvocka, Kos, Radic, Zigic, and

11 Prcac.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

13 very much.

14 Madam Hollis, could you introduce the

15 Prosecution.

16 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour. Good

17 morning, Your Honours. The Prosecutor is represented

18 by myself, Brenda Hollis, and Mr. Kapila Waidyaratne.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

20 very much, Madam Hollis.

21 The Defence, would you make yourselves

22 known. Let's start with Mr. Krstan Simic.

23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Good morning,

24 Your Honours. My name is Krstan Simic, and Branko

25 Lukic, with me, we both represent Mr. Kvocka.

Page 2450

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

2 Mr. Nikolic.

3 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Good morning,

4 Your Honours. As has been the case so far, the Defence

5 team is complete, Ms. Jelena Nikolic, Mr. O'Sullivan,

6 and myself. Thank you.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

8 very much.

9 Mr. Fila.

10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your

11 Honours. The Defence of Mr. Radic is represented by

12 Toma Fila and Mr. Zoran Jovanovic.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Mr. Tosic is next.

15 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning,

16 Your Honours. The Defence of Zoran Zigic is

17 represented by me, Simo Tosic, attorney from Banja

18 Luka, and I have Slobodan Stojanovic on my left, an

19 attorney from Belgrade.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

21 very much.

22 Mr. Jovan Simic.

23 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Good morning,

24 Your Honours. My name is Jovan Simic. Dusan Masic and

25 Goran Rodic are on the team with me representing the

Page 2451

1 Prcac defence case. Thank you.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

3 very much.

4 Good morning to the accused. We are going to

5 take up our proceedings where we left off.

6 As you know, Judge Fouad Riad is unable to

7 attend this morning because he is sitting on another

8 case. Having had agreement from the two parties, the

9 Defence and the Prosecution, we have decided, in

10 agreement with Judge Fouad Riad, to carry on within the

11 framework of Rule 71 and continue our hearing.

12 We have taken this decision because we are

13 always interested in expediency. As you know, the

14 Trial Chamber has taken over this case under very

15 difficult working conditions, but we have accepted to

16 take on the case and so it is in all our interests to

17 have a speedy and expeditious trial. As the parties

18 agree, we are sitting under those conditions.

19 I see that Mr. Tosic wished to say

20 something.

21 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I

22 do apologise. Before we hear this witness today, if

23 possible our defendant has asked to talk to us for a

24 few minutes and discuss a few facts. So if that is

25 possible, could you allow us five minutes to have a

Page 2452

1 discussion before we go ahead? I don't know what he

2 wishes to discuss but he has sent us a little note

3 asking us to discuss certain facts before we hear the

4 next witness, if the Court is in agreement.

5 I do apologise for this but it is a matter

6 that has just cropped up, and if possible we should be

7 glad if you would accept our request. Thank you.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Is this a

9 personal encounter between you?

10 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] That means

12 that we have to interrupt the meeting, does it, leave

13 the courtroom and come back afterwards?

14 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] No, I apologise,

15 but perhaps our client and myself and Mr. Stojanovic

16 could leave the courtroom for five minutes, have this

17 discussion and then come back, not to waste the Court's

18 time, if that is better in practical terms.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As you

20 know, Mr. Tosic, this upsets the trial considerably.

21 You know that very well.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I would

24 like to know if this discussion could take place during

25 the break. Mr. Tosic, what do you say to that?

Page 2453

1 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I

2 have to respect the will of my client. If he considers

3 that that will be a good time, I agree. If he feels

4 that he needs to have this discussion before the break,

5 then as his attorney I have to respect his will.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Tosic,

7 would you please ask your client whether we could have

8 this discussion during the break. You may leave your

9 place to go and ask the client.

10 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your

11 Honour.

12 [Defence counsel and accused confer]

13 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my

14 client wishes to say that he wishes to revoke the power

15 of attorney to engage us as his attorneys, myself and

16 my colleague, and I should like to ask him to explain

17 to the Trial Chamber his reasons for doing this. Thank

18 you.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam

20 Hollis, what is your opinion in this matter?

21 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, obviously an

22 accused's right to have counsel is a paramount right;

23 however, we don't believe it's an absolute right to

24 fire your attorney in the midst of trial, especially

25 when that attorney is an appointed counsel and not one

Page 2454

1 that the accused has hired with his own funds. We

2 believe that the Trial Chamber would have to be

3 apprised of the reasons for this and then weigh those

4 reasons very carefully, balancing the rights of the

5 accused and the rights of all parties to continue

6 within a speedy trial.

7 So we don't believe it's an absolute right

8 but we don't believe we can comment on the situation

9 until the Trial Chamber has heard the reasons, and

10 perhaps this will have to be done in camera with just

11 Your Honours, the accused, and his counsel.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Well, then,

13 I think that it is a good idea to give Mr. Tosic and

14 Mr. Stojanovic an opportunity to have a meeting with

15 Mr. Zigic, and in order to do that, I think that the

16 accused should withdraw. Therefore, we're going to

17 have a half an hour break; otherwise we're not going to

18 be able to do all this. So let us have a half an hour

19 break, after which we will reconvene to hear what the

20 situation is.

21 Witness, I do apologise for interrupting.

22 I adjourn the hearing for half an hour.

23 --- Recess taken at 9.52 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 10.34 a.m.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Tosic,

Page 2455

1 you have had an opportunity to have a meeting with your

2 client. Where do we now stand?

3 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my

4 client wishes, in a closed session, with the presence

5 of the Trial Chamber, the attorneys with him present,

6 to state his reasons why he is firing me as his Defence

7 attorney, the lead counsel. We discussed certain

8 facts, that is to say, what we were not able to do, and

9 that is one of the reasons that he is revoking his

10 power of attorney.

11 But at all events I should like my client to

12 state his views regarding the circumstances, and then

13 after he has said what he has to say, I would like to

14 give you a report on what our duties have been and what

15 we have done. Thank you.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Tosic,

17 the Chamber has nothing to do with the reasons that

18 Mr. Zigic has for bringing into question you

19 representing him.

20 What we do know is that Mr. Zigic wishes to

21 revoke the power of attorney and we have reached a

22 decision on that matter, so you may be seated. The

23 reasons for which Mr. Zigic is taking this step should

24 be expounded to the Registry and not to the Trial

25 Chamber.

Page 2456

1 The three Judges of the Trial Chamber, and I

2 say "three" because we had a meeting with Judge Fouad

3 Riad, we conferred and discussed the matter with

4 respect to Mr. Zigic's request with respect to his

5 Defence counsel, neither the latter nor his co-counsel,

6 Mr. Slobodan Stojanovic, that he does not wish to have

7 them represent him further.

8 Having studied the directives with respect to

9 the appointment of Defence counsel, and bearing in mind

10 the Statute of this Tribunal, especially Article 20 of

11 the Statute, we arrived unanimously at the following

12 conclusion:

13 Mr. Zigic does have the right, if he wishes

14 to do so, to table a request to the Registrar in order

15 to seek a replacement for his legal counsel, the legal

16 counsel which was appointed by the Registrar for his

17 defence. He also enjoys the right, if he wishes to

18 avail himself of that right, to table a written request

19 so that he personally could secure his defence.

20 From all this, it clearly emerges with

21 respect to the appointment of Defence counsel the

22 following -- and under these conditions it is not

23 necessary for the Trial Chamber to hear the reasons for

24 which Mr. Zigic would like Mr. Tosic and Mr. Stojanovic

25 to cease representing him as his Defence counsel. The

Page 2457

1 Trial Chamber would like to emphasise that these

2 proceedings have to do with all the five accused, all

3 of whom have the right to a fair and expeditious

4 trial.

5 The Trial Chamber therefore decides that we

6 continue the trial until the end of the proceedings,

7 until Wednesday, the 14th of June, which will be the

8 last day, under the same conditions and

9 representations, and until the Registrar has made a

10 final ruling. In other words, what we're going to do

11 is we're going to carry on with our work under the same

12 conditions until such a time as the Registrar decides,

13 makes a decision on the matter, and the request that

14 Mr. Zigic will have to submit to the Registrar for

15 consideration.

16 That is the ruling of the Trial Chamber. Now

17 I think we can continue with the trial.

18 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, the

19 Prosecution would call Witness Mirsad Alisic.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just one

21 moment, please.

22 Mr. Krstan Simic.

23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

24 I apologise for interrupting. We have a slight problem

25 which will not upset the proceedings.

Page 2458

1 After we heard Witness B, there was a mix-up

2 that occurred with respect to the tendering of evidence

3 linked to Witness B. The Prosecution withdrew its

4 request and then I was not able to take the floor

5 afterwards because our time was up for the day. But I

6 should just like to state in relation to the testimony

7 of Witness B, I would like to tender into evidence the

8 fact that Witness B, when he identified the

9 individuals, he failed to identify, recognise,

10 Mr. Kvocka, but he did so in the courtroom.

11 According to the documents that we tabled,

12 this exhibit should be marked D27/1. The number is

13 21. Witness B did not recognise and identify

14 Mr. Kvocka so we consider that this document should be

15 tendered into evidence as an exhibit.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam

17 Hollis.

18 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, if I could just be

19 shown a copy of that just to verify what documents

20 they're talking about. If the bailiff could perhaps

21 assist.

22 Your Honour, we would stipulate that the

23 witness when shown a photo board identification failed

24 to identify the accused Kvocka.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic.

Page 2459

1 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I accept that,

2 Your Honour, and we therefore withdraw our request, and

3 I'm sure the Trial Chamber will take into account that

4 fact when it comes to deliberate.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you are

6 withdrawing that request; is that correct?

7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

9 I think that we can now proceed.

10 I should like to remind you that tomorrow we

11 have a Status Conference at 4.00 p.m., and maybe at the

12 end of the morning I shall be able to tell you the

13 agenda for that Status Conference so that you can

14 prepare for it, because there are a series of questions

15 that we have kept for the Status Conference and they

16 will be discussed then. So that is tomorrow afternoon

17 at 4.00, and at the end of tomorrow morning's work, I

18 shall inform you of the agenda to be discussed.

19 Let us now have the witness, who was already

20 here once.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

23 morning, Witness. Good morning, Witness. Can you hear

24 me?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

Page 2460

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You're

2 going to read the solemn declaration that the usher is

3 going to hand to you, please.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

5 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

6 and nothing but the truth.



9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be

11 seated.

12 Do you feel comfortable, at ease?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank

14 you.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

16 for coming here. You are now going to be answering

17 questions put to you by the Prosecutor.

18 I give you the floor, sir.

19 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:

21 Q. Would you please state your name.

22 A. My name is Mirsad Alisic.

23 Q. What is your date of birth?

24 A. The 19th of September, 1953.

25 Q. Could you kindly state your place of birth.

Page 2461

1 A. I was born in Prijedor, Muharema Seljanovica,

2 number 150.

3 Q. In Prijedor, which village? Could you

4 describe the village?

5 A. My village is called Raskovac.

6 Q. What is your ethnicity?

7 A. Muslim.

8 Q. Prior to the war, where did you reside?

9 A. I resided in Prijedor, Muharema Seljanovica,

10 number 150.

11 Q. Is that in Raskovac?

12 A. Raskovac, that's right.

13 Q. What is your educational achievements?

14 A. I completed primary school and a secondary

15 school for auto mechanics in Prijedor.

16 Q. What was your occupation?

17 A. I was a car mechanic.

18 Q. Where did you work?

19 A. I worked in the Tomasica mine as a dumper

20 driver.

21 Q. When did you start work?

22 A. I started on the 15th of March, 1975.

23 Q. Did you perform military service, compulsory

24 military service?

25 A. Yes, I did. In 1972/1973, in Zajecar, a town

Page 2462

1 in Serbia.

2 Q. Were you attached to any unit, or did you

3 specialise in any work?

4 A. You mean in the army?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. I was in the anti-tank missile unit.

7 Q. You say that you worked in the Tomasica mine

8 as a dump driver from 1975.

9 A. That's right.

10 Q. Is this the place called Ljubija mine?

11 A. Ljubija mines, Tomasica, Omarska, yes.

12 Q. Until when did you work? When did you

13 last -- or stop work?

14 A. I stopped worked on the 22nd of May, 1992.

15 Q. Why did you stop work on the 22nd of May,

16 1992?

17 A. In Tomasica, all the non-Serb population

18 stopped working on the 22nd of May, 1992.

19 Q. Did anybody ask you not to come to work, or

20 were you ordered not to come to work?

21 A. Yes. My boss, Milorad Sipka, told me not to

22 come to work. He was my immediate superior.

23 Q. What was his ethnicity?

24 A. He was a Serb.

25 Q. Did they give you a reason as to why they

Page 2463

1 were stopping your work?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did any others work during that period at the

4 Ljubija mines?

5 A. Yes, they did. Just the people of Serb

6 ethnicity.

7 Q. So you stopped your work on the 22nd of May,

8 1992. Now, sir, I would draw your attention to the

9 30th of May, 1992. Do you recall that date?

10 A. Yes, I remember it well.

11 Q. Where were you on that day?

12 A. I was in my own house.

13 Q. In Raskovac.

14 A. In Raskovac, yes.

15 Q. Can you explain to the Court what happened

16 that day?

17 A. That day, at about 2.30, a uniformed soldier

18 came, he was wearing the uniform of the Yugoslav

19 People's Army, and he said that we should all leave our

20 houses and go out into the street, which we all did; I,

21 my wife, and our two children. When I went out onto

22 the street, I saw a whole stream of people walking.

23 Some people were carrying nothing; others were carrying

24 a bag. Nobody knew where they were going. Whenever

25 you asked them, they said they didn't know where they

Page 2464

1 were going. We were just told to go to the

2 auto market, which was the car market which was close

3 by.

4 When we came to this place where cars were

5 sold, there were a lot of people standing there and we

6 were ordered that children up to the age of 17 and

7 elderly people over the age of 70 were to step to one

8 side and that we should step to the other side.

9 They separated us, and then buses began to

10 arrive of the Autotransport Prijedor company, bus

11 company, and first of all the women and children got

12 into the bus. They were jammed packed and they would

13 leave one by one. Afterwards, other buses came by and

14 we were ordered to board the buses, which we did.

15 Q. Now, you said that there was a stream of

16 people and the people were asked to proceed towards the

17 open car market. Did you know these people and to

18 which ethnicity they belonged?

19 A. I knew the people, they were my neighbours.

20 They were of the Muslim ethnicity.

21 Q. You also said that the buses came and that

22 you were ordered to board the buses.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you recall, or do you remember, how many

25 people were in the bus that you were in?

Page 2465

1 A. In my bus everybody had seats; they were

2 sitting down. About 40 people, which is the number of

3 seats that exist in a normal -- it was a normal public

4 transport bus.

5 Q. Did anybody escort the buses?

6 A. Yes. There were two uniformed individuals.

7 I knew both of them. One was called Acko, and the

8 another one's surname was Turudija.

9 Q. The bus that you were in, did it go to any

10 place? Where did it go to?

11 A. The bus started out. We were sitting down

12 normally in the bus and we came to the marketplace,

13 which is the entrance to the centre of Prijedor

14 itself. I saw a lot of dead people on the pavement;

15 there was a lot of blood. All the people that I saw

16 and noticed were wearing civilian clothing. We were

17 taken through Prijedor and we would encounter dead

18 bodies.

19 The bus then stopped outside the SUP

20 building. It parked there and we stayed there for a

21 time, and then we were ordered to continue. Once again

22 we passed through the streets of Prijedor, and at the

23 exit to Prijedor, the place is called Lukavica, which

24 is where there was a bakery, and I saw a whole heap of

25 people, dead bodies, wearing civilian clothing, of

Page 2466

1 course. There was quite a lot of blood around there.

2 We had to keep our heads bowed down, and then we went

3 on towards Tomasica.

4 Q. Now, what is the road that you refer to as

5 Tomasica? Could you explain to the Court as to what

6 this road is? Was it the normal road that proceeds to

7 Omarska?

8 A. No. The road going to Omarska is the

9 Prijedor-Banja Luka main road.

10 Q. Now, you said that buses proceeded. Were the

11 buses stopped at any other places?

12 A. Yes. The bus was stopped on the Zuti Put,

13 the yellow road. I worked in Tomasica and I know this

14 road very well. It was always referred to as the

15 yellow road. The door was opened and we heard that

16 they were going to take us out to slit our throats.

17 One of the guards said, "There's no need to do that.

18 We're taking them to Omarska and we'll get rid of them

19 there."

20 We were also stopped later on when we turned

21 left onto the macadamised road surface, when we left

22 the asphalt road, and I took the iron ore from Omarska

23 to Tomasica there, so I know that road there. They

24 told us to get out and they said that they would slit

25 our throats. They cursed our balija mothers, our

Page 2467

1 Turkish mothers, and so on. They used this derogatory

2 form.

3 When we came to Tomasica, I don't remember

4 whether we were told to raise our heads, but I found my

5 head raised and saw that everybody had looked up. The

6 bus had already -- the bus in front of our bus had

7 already been parked. We were ordered to step down from

8 the bus six by six, with our hands up and behind our

9 heads, like this.

10 Q. Sir, if I may interrupt. What was the

11 destination? Where did the bus come to a stop? The

12 final destination before you were asked what you saw,

13 where six people were getting out of the bus.

14 A. That was Omarska.

15 Q. Had you been to Omarska before this?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And why?

18 A. Well, I went to Omarska frequently. I drove

19 iron ore there and I took equipment there, and then I

20 would drive trucks away with the iron ore from

21 Tomasica. It was the same firm, actually, but with

22 these two sections or departments.

23 Q. So that was during the time that you were

24 employed in the Ljubija mines.

25 A. Yes, that's right.

Page 2468

1 Q. Now, you said that the buses came and stopped

2 at Omarska. What time of the day was it when these

3 buses reached the camp?

4 A. It was towards evening. It was getting

5 dark.

6 Q. Could you see around? Was there any light?

7 A. Yes, there was.

8 Q. Where was it? What was the light which was

9 there at that time?

10 A. Well, there were some lights at the hangar on

11 the corner, reflecting light, and the workshop where

12 the dumpers were repaired, there were big reflector

13 lights there.

14 Q. Where did the buses come and stop?

15 A. The buses stopped between the hangar and the

16 administration building.

17 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May I, Your Honour, at this

18 stage introduce a new exhibit, a photograph of the

19 model of the camp which could be given to the witness,

20 marked as 3/90. Can I have the assistance of the

21 usher. I have the provided the Defence and the Court

22 with copies, Your Honour.

23 Q. Witness, please look at the exhibit that has

24 just been provided to you. Could you indicate the

25 place where the bus that you were in stopped.

Page 2469

1 A. The bus was right here.

2 Q. Can you take a pencil and mark it as "A1."

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. Thank you. You said that there was another

5 bus which was stopped in front of you, the bus that you

6 were in.

7 A. Yes, there was another bus in front of our

8 own bus.

9 Q. Could you mark that -- indicate that place as

10 "A2? "

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. You said that you saw six people getting out

13 of the bus with their hands on their heads.

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. And you saw that from your place where you

16 were seated in the bus. Where were you seated in the

17 bus?

18 A. I was seated on the right side, in the window

19 seat.

20 Q. What did you see? Could you explain it to

21 the Court.

22 A. These six people came out with their hands

23 raised up, as they were ordered to do. I saw some

24 guards whom I knew from before. And this guy who was

25 named Predojevic fired a burst of fire and killed these

Page 2470

1 six people, and he told them, "Fuck your balija

2 mothers. You know where you have come and you know

3 what's in store for you."

4 Q. Now, you mentioned a person by the name of

5 Predojevic. Did you see him at that instance? How was

6 he dressed?

7 A. He was dressed in a summer uniform of the

8 Yugoslav People's Army.

9 Q. What was he armed with?

10 A. He had an automatic rifle.

11 Q. Did you see any other guards around the place

12 or any other persons from the camp?

13 A. There was some other guards there, not very

14 many of them. I did not know them, so I don't know

15 who.

16 Q. Did you see what happened to the people who

17 got down from the bus, the six persons who got down

18 from the bus, after Predojevic shot?

19 A. After I got down from the bus, I could see

20 them lying down on the ground in front of the bus.

21 Q. Did you see -- what did Predojevic do after

22 that? Did you observe him?

23 A. No. He just stood there. He was there.

24 Q. Now, you mentioned the name of Predojevic.

25 Did you know this person before the war, before this

Page 2471

1 instant?

2 A. Yes, I did. I knew him.

3 Q. How did you know him, and how did you know

4 the name?

5 A. I used to drive trucks and lorries, and once

6 I took some wood to Slobodan Savic, who also worked at

7 the Tomasica mine, and Predojevic was also there and he

8 was helping us, so that's how I got to meet him. So I

9 know from then that his surname is Predojevic.

10 Q. Did you see this person by the name of

11 Predojevic in the camp during your detention

12 thereafter?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. Where did you see him?

15 A. I'd see him at Omarska. He was a guard at

16 Omarska, and I would often see him at the pista.

17 Q. Was he a regular guard? And what time did

18 he -- do you know what time he worked or what shift he

19 worked in?

20 A. Yes. Predojevic worked in Radic's shift.

21 They worked 12 hours per shift, from 7.00 to 7.00 p.m.

22 Q. I will take you back to the time that you saw

23 this shooting. After the shooting, were you ordered

24 out of the bus?

25 A. Yes. We were going out of the bus, six by

Page 2472

1 six.

2 Q. Where were you all asked to go?

3 A. We were told then to go to the administration

4 building, actually, in front of the administration

5 building, at the entrance of the administration

6 building. That's where we were stopped and we had to

7 put our hands on the walls of the administration

8 building, with three fingers pointing towards the

9 wall. There, we were inspected and they took our

10 money, our valuables, our watches, our chains, what

11 things they could find. And they also took down our

12 particulars, the surnames, the names, the dates of

13 birth, the addresses of the people.

14 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, may I

15 introduce a diagram of the administration building,

16 which has already been marked as 3/77A. With the

17 assistance of the usher to give to the witness.

18 Q. Please see the diagram. You said earlier in

19 your testimony that you were asked to line up in front

20 of the administration building at the entrance. Could

21 you show and indicate the place where you were asked to

22 stand when you were searched.

23 A. Right there.

24 Q. Could you mark that place as "A3."

25 A. [Marks]

Page 2473

1 Q. Then you said, sir, that you were searched

2 and your information were taken down. During that

3 time, could you kindly say as to who searched you and

4 whether you saw any guards or soldiers around that

5 place?

6 A. I only knew Paspalj and Popovic of them.

7 Q. Did you see them there at that instance?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. The persons you named as Paspalj and Popovic,

10 did you know them before the war?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. How did you know them?

13 A. Well, as I said, I was driving these trucks

14 from Tomasica to Omarska and I used this tank truck to

15 spray the road, hose the road with water, along these

16 lines. So I worked in Tomasica and I saw them there.

17 Q. Did you see them thereafter in the camp?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. When and where? Could you say as to when and

20 where, and in which shift they worked?

21 A. I saw Paspalj and Popovic because I spent a

22 lot of time on the pista, and they were in Radic's

23 shift.

24 Q. Now, you earlier also mentioned a person by

25 the name of Radic. Do you know the full name of this

Page 2474

1 person by the name of Radic?

2 A. Mladic -- Mladen Radic, known as Krkan.

3 Q. Did you know him or did you have -- had you

4 known him before the war, before your detention in the

5 camp?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. How did you know him?

8 A. He was a policeman in Ljubija and that's how

9 I knew him.

10 Q. Have you spoken to him? Have you seen him?

11 A. Yes, I have. Yes, I did.

12 Q. How often did you see Radic in the camp?

13 A. I would see Radic at the beginning of the

14 shift and at the end of his shift. Sometimes I would

15 also see him at Omarska camp, but that was not frequent

16 during his shift.

17 Q. After you were searched and your information

18 was taken by the guards, were you ordered to go to any

19 place in the building?

20 A. Yes, we were.

21 Q. Where were you ordered to go?

22 A. We were ordered to this room which was later

23 dubbed Mujo's room. It is this way, through this

24 corridor, and then the door to the right and then into

25 this Mujo's room.

Page 2475

1 Q. In the diagram that you have, there is a

2 number marked in all of those places. Could you kindly

3 refer to the number in that room.

4 A. Here, yes.

5 Q. What is it? What is the number which is

6 there in that diagram?

7 A. A9.

8 Q. Thank you. Could you also kindly show,

9 indicate, from the entrance as to how you went to that

10 room which is marked as A9.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel is kindly asked to

12 speak into the microphone.

13 A. This hall, straight down this hall to this

14 door, which was on the right side and which led into

15 this room, number A9. This is where I entered.


17 Q. Thank you. Now this room which is marked as

18 A9, did you refer to it by a name, or how did you all

19 refer to that room?

20 A. That room was called, it was given the name,

21 Mujo's room.

22 Q. Do you know why it was called Mujo's room?

23 A. One Mujo was in this room, and then when

24 something was needed to communicate with the guards,

25 something was to be done for the guards -- for the

Page 2476

1 prisoners with the guards, he was the one who

2 communicated with them.

3 Q. When you went into Mujo's room, did you see

4 anybody, and what was the condition of the room?

5 A. When I came into Mujo's room, I could see the

6 whole of Prijedor in Mujo's room because I knew all of

7 the people in that room. Whenever I turned I saw

8 familiar faces. Nobody spoke, nobody said a thing;

9 they were all silent. They were all lost and had this

10 expression of being lost on their face. Nobody said

11 anything; nobody had any comment to make.

12 Q. What ethnicity were these people; do you

13 know?

14 A. Most of them were of the Muslim ethnicity but

15 there were some Croats among them.

16 Q. Where did you spend the night, the first

17 night that you spent in the camp?

18 A. I spent this first night in the lavatory or

19 in the toilet, which was part of Mujo's room.

20 Q. Why did you spend the night in the lavatory

21 in Mujo's room?

22 A. Because there was no room in Mujo's room,

23 there was no space. It was cramped. There were many

24 people there in addition to myself, in the lavatory.

25 Q. Using that Exhibit 3/77, could you kindly

Page 2477

1 show the place or the lavatory that you testified to.

2 A. This is where the lavatory was.

3 Q. Can you mark that place as "L."

4 A. [Marks]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

6 Mr. Prosecutor, I apologise for interrupting but we

7 have here "A3" indicated by the witness and another A3

8 which is part of the composition of the sketch.

9 Perhaps you could explain the A3 that the witness

10 marked, which was located between A15 and A16, because

11 as you can see, there's another A3 where the "L" is.

12 But I think that if you explain this it will

13 be clear, that the "A3" marked by the witness is

14 located between A15 and A16 already inscribed on the

15 diagram and the exhibit, and that he has now placed the

16 letter "L" right next to the A3 already marked on

17 the diagram. You may continue.

18 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I apologise, Your Honour.

19 The A3 which the witness marked between A15 and A16 was

20 the place where they were searched and where their

21 information was taken. And the "A3" which is in

22 the diagram, is in there which has been marked before

23 that. The letter "L" which the witness has just

24 indicated was to show that was the place of the

25 lavatory, or the toilet; the first night that he

Page 2478

1 spent. Thank you.

2 Q. Now, you said that you spent the first night

3 in the lavatory in Mujo's room?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How long did you spend in Mujo's room?

6 A. That night.

7 Q. Did you go to any other place in the morning?

8 A. In the morning, we heard an order given out

9 to the people who came in the night before into Mujo's

10 room, they were told to step outside.

11 Q. Did you come out of the room?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Did you see anybody there at that instance?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Who was it?

16 A. I saw Miroslav Kvocka.

17 Q. How was he dressed?

18 A. Miroslav Kvocka was wearing a camouflage

19 police uniform with a blue beret.

20 Q. Did he say anything at that instance?

21 A. Yes, he did. He said that we should walk

22 slowly, that we shouldn't go fast. If anybody made a

23 quick movement of any kind, that he personally would

24 kill him.

25 Q. Was he armed at that instance?

Page 2479

1 A. Yes, Miroslav Kvocka had a pump-action rifle

2 on his right shoulder.

3 Q. Where were you all ordered to go to?

4 A. I was ordered to go to the pista.

5 Q. Could you explain to the Court as to what

6 this place that you refer to as "the pista" is, using

7 the exhibit number 3/90.

8 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May I have the assistance

9 of the usher to help.

10 Q. Now, Witness, please look at that exhibit,

11 and could you show the place that you refer to as "the

12 pista."

13 A. That's the pista here.

14 Q. What did you observe there? Did you see

15 anything else there in that place?

16 A. When we came here, there were people on the

17 pista already there, straight at the beginning. They

18 were all civilians, and I saw that they had been beaten

19 the previous night because they were covered in blood.

20 Q. Were any guards present at that place at that

21 instance?

22 A. They were standing around.

23 Q. While you were in the pista, were you ordered

24 to sit down?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2480

1 Q. While you were in the pista, did you observe

2 that day a vehicle coming to that area?

3 A. Yes. A TAM 2000 truck known as Zuco came.

4 Q. What colour was it?

5 A. It was yellow.

6 Q. And did you see the truck leaving the pista?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was it loaded with anything before it left?

9 A. On the truck there was a machine-gun with

10 ammunition, and that machine-gun was unloaded and the

11 ammunition on the roof of the administration building,

12 and it was -- a soldier was positioned there.

13 Q. Did you see the truck leaving at that

14 instance?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was it loaded with anything before it left?

17 A. That truck parked here and they loaded up the

18 dead bodies of people onto the truck. There was a

19 patch of grass here beside the "white house." But they

20 loaded it up with dead bodies.

21 Q. Who loaded the bodies onto the truck?

22 A. The guards working in the camp.

23 Q. Was anybody else, any camp leaders present at

24 that instance when the bodies were loaded onto the

25 truck?

Page 2481

1 A. Yes, there was Miroslav Kvocka there.

2 Q. What was he doing there?

3 A. He was there. He was present there. He took

4 us out onto the pista. He was standing there; that's

5 where he was, next to the truck.

6 Q. Now, you mentioned about the person by the

7 name of Kvocka. Did you know this Miroslav Kvocka

8 before the war?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How did you know him? Could you explain to

11 the Court as to how you knew him before the war.

12 A. Well, Kvocka is married to the Crnalic lady

13 who also lived in my street, and also before the war he

14 worked as a policeman; that's how I knew him.

15 Q. Have you seen Kvocka before the war?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you know any other members of the family

18 to whom he was married?

19 A. Yes, I knew his father-in-law and his

20 mother-in-law and the brothers of his wife.

21 Q. While you were in the pista, were you able to

22 observe around and see as to what -- could you state to

23 the Court what you saw around when you were detained on

24 the pista.

25 A. While we were on the pista, we could see

Page 2482

1 everything, the guards who were there and who was

2 coming, the comings and goings.

3 Q. What were the conditions during that period?

4 A. Well, they were bad. We were out on the

5 asphalt. Sometimes we were ordered to lie down on our

6 stomachs, and this would take place and we would have

7 to lie like that for hours.

8 Q. Were you provided with water and food?

9 A. Rarely.

10 Q. While you were detained on the pista, during

11 the nights were you ordered to go to any other place?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you state what these places were.

14 A. To the restaurant, which was within the

15 frameworks of the administration building.

16 Q. What time were you ordered to go to the

17 restaurant, generally?

18 A. In the evening.

19 Q. So you spent the night in the restaurant.

20 A. Not every night.

21 Q. Now, during a night that you spent in the

22 restaurant, did you see a shooting take place?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you approximately or roughly say when

25 this incident took place?

Page 2483

1 A. Well, it was at the beginning, when I

2 arrived, when we arrived. There was an elderly man; he

3 was about 70 years old and his name was Nasic. And we

4 were ordered to go to the restaurant. We got up,

5 because there were hundreds of us on the pista. And

6 the machine-gun on the roof, the one standing there, he

7 shot with that machine-gun above our heads. And Nasic

8 did not dare go into the restaurant. The other

9 prisoners tried to coax him into going into the

10 restaurant because he said that -- they said that if

11 you didn't obey orders other people would suffer. So

12 finally, he entered the restaurant.

13 We were ordered to sit down but Nasic

14 remained standing.

15 Q. Now, did you see Nasic in the restaurant?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May I have the Exhibit

18 3/77A be given to the witness too.

19 Q. Please look at the diagram. Could you first

20 show or indicate the place that you call the

21 restaurant.

22 A. That's it here. That's the restaurant.

23 Q. In that diagram, could you say what the

24 letter and the numbers which are indicated there?

25 A. A22.

Page 2484

1 Q. Now, sir, using that diagram, could you

2 kindly show the place that you saw Nasic while you were

3 in the restaurant.

4 A. I saw Nasic here, next to the line where the

5 food was distributed. That's where Nasic was.

6 Q. Would you kindly mark that place with the

7 letter "N."

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. Could you kindly show and indicate the place

10 that you were that night.

11 A. I was located in this corner here.

12 Q. Could you mark that place as "M."

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Now, sir, you said that you saw Nasic in the

15 restaurant. Could you explain to the Court what

16 happened thereafter.

17 A. While Nasic was standing, he said that it was

18 unbearable, that we couldn't -- he couldn't take it any

19 more, that those of us who had been persecuted couldn't

20 take it any more. But we saw -- I saw at the end of

21 the restaurant, that is to say, outside here, I saw a

22 guard. I saw Plavsic and he was called Cvitan. He had

23 a white lock of hair and he was referred to by the

24 other guards as Cvitan as well. I saw standing next to

25 that guard Miroslav Kvocka; he stood right next to the

Page 2485

1 guard.

2 Q. Could you say what happened when Nasic was

3 standing and-- when he was standing.

4 A. The guard shot a burst of gunfire and he

5 killed Nasic straight away. He fell down. There were

6 cries and screams, and there were other people who were

7 wounded. Afterwards, Kvocka came up right to this

8 corner where I was standing and he said, "Why don't you

9 make him keep quiet? Why didn't you stop him from

10 saying what he said?" And afterwards the three young

11 men who had been wounded were taken out. I didn't see

12 them dead or alive after that. I don't know where they

13 went, where they were taken. I don't know that.

14 Q. Did you know what happened to Nasic? Did you

15 see Nasic thereafter in the camp?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Now, sir, using the diagram again, could you

18 kindly indicate the place where you saw Plavsic when he

19 shot Nasic, and mark that place with the letter "P."

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. You say that you saw Kvocka and subsequently

22 he came and stood -- the first time that you saw

23 Kvocka, will you mark that place with the letter "K1."

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. Subsequently, you said that the person by the

Page 2486

1 name of Kvocka came and said why the detainees didn't

2 keep Nasic quiet. Could you indicate that place as

3 "K2," where you saw Kvocka.

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. Now, is this the same person that you

6 referred to as Kvocka -- earlier in your testimony you

7 referred to a person whom you saw when you came out of

8 Mujo's room and named him as Kvocka. Is this the same

9 person that you saw that night?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How was he dressed at that time?

12 A. He was wearing a camouflage police uniform.

13 Q. Now, you mentioned a person by the name --

14 the guard named Plavsic. Could you describe to the

15 Court as to what he looked like.

16 A. He was a little shorter than me, a little

17 fatter than me. He had curly hair and he had a white

18 strand of hair here.

19 Q. Did you know him prior to the war?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you know in which shift or during what

22 time he worked, in whose shift he worked?

23 A. Plavsic was also in Krkan's shift.

24 Q. Did you know the name of the guard prior to

25 you coming to the camp, the name of Plavsic?

Page 2487

1 A. No.

2 Q. How did you get to know the name?

3 A. I just heard the guards calling out to each

4 other. I heard them saying the name and I remembered

5 it.

6 Q. Thank you. During your detention in the

7 pista, did you see any persons being beaten?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you know a person by the name of Hrnic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you know him before the war?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How did you know him, and could you explain

14 to the Court as to what he --

15 A. Well, I knew Hrnic. He drove trucks. He was

16 a rich young man. We would meet in Asaf's cafe,

17 Muhamed Izetic, in his pizzeria.

18 Q. Did you associate with him before the war?

19 A. Well, we weren't actually friends but we did

20 know each other, and in fact very frequently we would

21 meet each other in cafes. We would see each other

22 around, although we weren't actually bosom buddies.

23 Q. How did you see this person during your

24 detention in the camp?

25 A. Well, at the beginning -- that is to say, he

Page 2488

1 was beaten up rather a lot. He was taken in front of

2 the administration building, he was told to place his

3 hands against the wall of the administration building,

4 and they beat him. They beat him a lot, and it's

5 amazing what Hrnic was able to take during the times

6 that he was beaten.

7 Q. Now, sir, did you see him being beaten?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Where was it? Where did you see him?

10 A. It was in front of the administration

11 building.

12 Q. Did you see the persons who beat him?

13 A. Yes, I saw the guards. They would take turns

14 in beating him.

15 Q. Did you recognise any of these persons who

16 beat him?

17 A. I recognised Paspalj, Popovic, Predojevic.

18 They beat him most.

19 Q. Do you recall approximately when was this,

20 when you saw this beating?

21 A. It was during the first week after my arrival

22 in the camp. He was brought there in the morning.

23 They would beat him for half an hour, take him off,

24 bring him back, beat him again for another half an

25 hour, take him away again and bring him back again,

Page 2489

1 that kind of thing.

2 Q. Did you see him with injuries? Did you see

3 Hrnic with injuries?

4 A. Yes. When Hrnic was going to lunch -- we

5 were told to run to lunch but he wasn't able to run.

6 You could see that he was dragging his leg and that he

7 was making grimaces from the pain, that it was painful

8 for him to walk and that he couldn't actually run. And

9 when he went into the restaurant he would be hit with a

10 rifle butt in the back, on his head.

11 Q. During these beatings, did you see any camp

12 leaders or people in authority present?

13 A. No. I don't remember, actually. I don't

14 remember having seen them.

15 Q. Thank you. Now, during your detention in the

16 pista, could you kindly tell us how long you spent in

17 the pista out of the total time that you were

18 detained?

19 A. I spent 46 days on the pista.

20 Q. While you were in the pista, did you see

21 another detainee being shot?

22 A. Well, I saw Mehmed Alisic killed on the

23 pista.

24 Q. This person whom you referred to as Mehmed

25 Alisic, did you know him before the war?

Page 2490

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you know as to what ethnicity he belonged

3 to?

4 A. Yes. He was a Muslim.

5 Q. Could you explain to the Court as to what you

6 saw with regard to the incident concerning Mehmed

7 Alisic.

8 A. At one point when I happened to look up, we

9 were lying down on the pista, on the asphalt there, I

10 saw Mehmed standing, and at the same time, further off

11 I saw a guard with a rifle held up like this, in the

12 air. I was surprised to see Mehmed standing because we

13 were all ordered to lie down. And then he shot a burst

14 of gunfire. I saw Mehmed fall; his head was down on

15 the ground.

16 Q. Did you see -- did you know this guard before

17 the war?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Could you describe how he looked and how he

20 was dressed at that instance.

21 A. He was wearing the olive-green/grey uniform

22 of the Yugoslav People's Army. He was tall, strongly

23 built, bald.

24 Q. Did you see him prior to this, present in the

25 camp?

Page 2491

1 A. Yes, I did see him around in the camp.

2 Q. Did you see what happened to Mehmed Alisic?

3 Was his body removed?

4 A. His body was removed, and I didn't see him

5 after that.

6 Q. Did you see where they took this body -- took

7 his body?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Sir, now I would draw your attention to an

10 incident that you saw in the camp concerning a person

11 by the name of Gordan Kardumovic. Did you know a

12 person by the name of Gordan Kardumovic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you know him before the war?

15 A. Yes. We were friends. We visited each

16 other.

17 Q. Do you know which ethnicity group he belonged

18 to?

19 A. He was a Croat.

20 Q. Do you know how he was employed before the

21 war, what his employment was?

22 A. He worked at the petrol station, and then he

23 opened a cafe of his own by the Mladen Stojanovic

24 School in Prijedor. The cafe worked well; because I

25 visited the cafe and I know.

Page 2492

1 Q. Did you see Gordan while you were detained in

2 the camp?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you state as to when you saw him first

5 and where you saw him?

6 A. I saw Gogi for the first time in front of

7 Mujo's room. There's a door there. Not the door that

8 we go in and out of, but by a tap. There was some taps

9 for washing there. The miners working in Omarska used

10 to wash their boots there and so on. We were allowed

11 to go there from time to time to wash a bit, and that's

12 where I met Gogi for the first time in Omarska, in the

13 camp.

14 Q. Did you speak to him?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did he speak to you?

17 A. Yes, we did speak to each other. I asked him

18 how come he was there.

19 Q. Why did you ask that question from him? Was

20 there any reason?

21 A. Well, I asked Gogi Kardum how come he was

22 there because as I say we were friends, we saw each

23 other, but I didn't know what ethnic group he belonged

24 to actually. And then he told me on that occasion, "I

25 am a Croat."

Page 2493

1 Q. Do you recall which time period that you saw

2 him for the first time in the camp; during which month

3 it was?

4 A. It was round about the end of June and the

5 beginning of July. He had come from Keraterm.

6 Q. Did you see him thereafter?

7 A. I saw Gogi Kardum dead on the grass after

8 that. That was the first and last time after that

9 first occasion.

10 Q. Where did you see his body, and what did you

11 see?

12 A. That night, I spent the night in the hangar.

13 I don't know the number of the room. But in the

14 morning we were to go out to see to our ablutions, and

15 as soon as we left the hangar there's a door and you go

16 directly onto the grass from there. And when I got

17 there I saw that there were dead people around, and

18 unfortunately I stood right by where Kardum was. I

19 recognised him. He was covered in blood. And that's

20 how it was. The guards said that we had to urinate

21 there, and I found this difficult because Gogi Kardum

22 was there, right by me, but I had to do what I was

23 told.

24 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May I, Your Honour, use

25 Exhibit 3/90, for the witness to be able to show these

Page 2494

1 places.

2 Q. Sir, looking at the photograph, could you

3 show the place that you saw the body of Gogi, or Gordan

4 Kardumovic.

5 A. Here.

6 Q. Can you mark that place or indicate that

7 place with the letter "G."

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. Were you close enough to see his dead body

10 and to observe the injuries?

11 A. I was right next to Gogi Kardum, right by his

12 legs.

13 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, may I seek

14 your permission to introduce a photograph which the

15 accused -- which the witness brought and handed over to

16 the Prosecution. We were unable to get the copies for

17 the Defence but I have given notice to the Defence. I

18 would produce this, and as the witness wants the

19 original back, may I, at the conclusion of the

20 testimony, the proceedings, I will get a copy and

21 retrieve this original from the Court. May I have the

22 permission to produce this. And I would mark this

23 as -- this is a new exhibit, 3/91.

24 Q. Now, sir, please look at the photograph and

25 could you explain to the Court as to who the persons

Page 2495

1 who are seen in that photograph.

2 A. This is Gogi Kardum and that's me.

3 Q. Could you kindly tell the Court as to when

4 this photograph was taken.

5 A. That photograph was taken a little before the

6 war. In 1990, approximately.

7 Q. Where was it taken?

8 A. That photograph was taken next to a

9 restaurant which was called Sevdah, and we would eat

10 lamb on a spit. We would picnic there. We would play

11 football. Muslims, Croats, Serbs, we would all go

12 there.

13 Q. And this photograph was in your possession

14 until you gave it to me, until you gave it to the

15 Prosecution?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, after your detention in

18 the pista, were you at any time transferred to, or had

19 the opportunity to go to any other place, any other

20 building?

21 A. Well, we were beaten up in the "white house,"

22 in the hangar, in the restaurant, and in Mujo's room.

23 Q. During your detention, were you --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Not beaten up.

25 Transported. The interpreter apologises. We were

Page 2496

1 transported to the "white house," and so on.


3 Q. When you were released from the camp, were

4 you again taken to Mujo's room?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When was that? What was the period?

7 A. It was during the day and in the evening as

8 well, depending. Sometimes you would go to Mujo's room

9 during the daytime; sometimes you would be taken there

10 at night.

11 Q. While you were in Mujo's room, during the

12 latter part of your detention, did you see a person by

13 the name of Zgog?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Where did you see him?

16 A. I saw him in Mujo's room.

17 Q. Did you speak to him?

18 A. Yes. We were together on the pista as well,

19 Zgog and I.

20 Q. Did you know this person before the war?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you know the ethnicity of this person?

23 A. He was an Albanian, a Muslim.

24 Q. What was he before the war? Did you know

25 where he was employed?

Page 2497

1 A. Zgogi was a football player, he played

2 football in the Second Federal League. Later on,

3 before the war, he worked as a coach.

4 Q. When you were in Mujo's room, did you see an

5 incident involving Zgog?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could you describe what happened and when

8 this took place.

9 A. One day, during the daytime, Paspalj came

10 into Mujo's room, and Popovic came in after him. They

11 called Zgog out and they said, "Come here, coach."

12 That's how they referred to him. He came up and

13 Paspalj said that he should collect up 500

14 Deutschemarks within the space of 15 minutes, otherwise

15 he'd be killed. He beat Zgog with his baton and left

16 and said he would be back in 15 minutes.

17 Zgog collected up the money. He asked the

18 prisoners for money but they didn't have any money

19 themselves. I don't know from where, but money was put

20 forward, and when Paspalj came in, Zgog was able to

21 hand him over the money. Paspalj counted out the money

22 and he set a certain sum aside and put it in his

23 pocket. Then he continued to count the money, and then

24 he cursed Zgog's mother and he said that he needed

25 to -- that there wasn't 500 Deutschemarks there and

Page 2498

1 that he needed another 200, and then began to beat

2 him. He beat him all the time.

3 There were two columns in Mujo's room,

4 concrete pillars. He left the room. Zgog broke the

5 window that was above me, I was underneath the window,

6 and he took a piece of glass and wanted to slit his own

7 throat -- started slitting his throat with that piece

8 of glass fragment. Mehmed Besic was there and took

9 hold of his arm and prevented him from slitting his own

10 throat, as he intended to do.

11 In the meantime, Paspalj and Popovic came

12 in. The room was full, but at that moment it was

13 empty. The centre of the room was empty. We were all

14 around the walls of the room and he started beating

15 Zgog. He beat him and beat him with anything that came

16 to hand. Popovic was with him, of course, and joined

17 in. They told us that we should all leave Mujo's room

18 that day, on that occasion, when Paspalj was beating

19 him, and we did all leave the room.

20 They called our names out, perhaps 200 names,

21 and I was amongst those 200 and so was Bajram Zgog.

22 They transferred us to the hangar, on the ground floor

23 of the hangar, and that's when the prisoners were

24 brought there for the first time. There was barbed

25 wire all around it, there was a lot of mud, and

Page 2499

1 otherwise that was a workshop for the heavy duty mining

2 vehicles. And I saw Bajram Zgog there.

3 Q. Did you see Bajram Zgog after that incident?

4 A. Yes. We left together, where we were

5 transferred to. Zgog Bajram tried to hide. You

6 couldn't really hide but he did what he could to stop

7 the guard from seeing him; he would sort of bend down.

8 But later on I was transferred from the hangar to

9 Mujo's room and I didn't see Bajram Zgog any more after

10 that.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May this be a suitable time

13 to stop, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

15 indeed, Mr. Waidyaratne. It is noon and we're going to

16 have a half an hour recess. So we'll pause for half an

17 hour.

18 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 12.37 p.m.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be

21 seated.

22 Mr. Waidyaratne, you may continue.

23 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Now, before the recess you were referring to

25 an incident where you described the assault or the

Page 2500

1 beating of a person by the name of Bajram Zgog. Do you

2 remember the time, or the period, that this incident

3 happened?

4 A. It was somewhere around July, I think.

5 Q. Was it the latter part of July?

6 A. It was the first half of July.

7 Q. Now, sir, before we get to a new area, I

8 would ask you a question. You testified with regard to

9 the incident concerning the shooting of Mehmed Alisic.

10 You said that the guard who fired -- whom you saw

11 firing at Alisic was bald. Could you describe what you

12 meant by "bald"? What sort of hair, or could you

13 describe what you meant by that?

14 A. He had a receding hairline.

15 Q. Thank you. Also, when you testified about

16 Miroslav Kvocka, you said that he was dressed in a

17 police camouflage uniform. Could you describe as to

18 what colour?

19 A. It is camouflage, which is to say

20 multicoloured, but basically blue.

21 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, I would take you to a

22 different area. The time that you spent in Mujo's room

23 in the latter part of your detention, did you see a

24 person by the name of Dzevad Grozdanic?

25 A. I saw Dzevad within the frameworks of Mujo's

Page 2501

1 room, so to speak. But there are some concrete troughs

2 there, and that's where I saw him.

3 Q. Did you know this person before the war?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you know as to what he was -- as to how

6 he was employed?

7 A. He was a haulier; he had a truck. But before

8 the war he lived in Switzerland. But he is from

9 Poharska.

10 Q. When you saw him in the camp in Mujo's room,

11 did you speak to him?

12 A. Yes, I saw him. He was all beaten up.

13 Dzevad was in no condition to talk to anyone. You

14 could see traces of beating and bruises on his head and

15 all over his body.

16 Q. Could you explain more as to what these --

17 you say that he was beaten up and you saw bruises.

18 Could you explain what these injuries were that you

19 could see?

20 A. He had bruises on his face and he was covered

21 in blood. Also on his chest, there were cuts on his

22 chest as well.

23 Q. Did you see him thereafter?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Do you know to which ethnic group he

Page 2502

1 belonged?

2 A. Yes. He was a Muslim.

3 Q. You said that you saw him, you said that

4 there were some concrete -- could you say as to which

5 place this is in Mujo's room.

6 A. That was in front of the lavatory, in front

7 of the lavatory in this hall, and you pass by these

8 troughs to enter the lavatory.

9 Q. Was it inside the lavatory?

10 A. It was part of the lavatory.

11 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, during your detention

12 in the camp, were you separately or individually

13 beaten?

14 A. Yes, I was.

15 Q. Do you remember the date or the month that

16 this took place?

17 A. That was on the 4th of June, 1992.

18 Q. You specially remember this date. Is there

19 any reason you remember specifically the date?

20 A. Yes. That is the day -- the birthday of my

21 youngest son. That is why I remember that date.

22 Q. Where were you that day before this incident?

23 A. On that day I was on the pista.

24 Q. Could you describe what happened then?

25 A. The guard who was on duty in the Omarska

Page 2503

1 camp, he beckoned me with his finger to approach him.

2 So I did, and he ordered me to stand against the wall

3 of the administration building, with my hands and

4 normally the three fingers leaning against the wall.

5 He told me to wait there, and then he went to the

6 "white house" to get some other people. Predojevic

7 and Paspalj were there. Predojevic came up to me and I

8 told him, "Do not make an invalid out of me. You don't

9 need to do that." Predojevic said, "What do you mean a

10 disabled person? We're going to kill you now." So I

11 froze, my blood ran cold.

12 This person who came, then he told me to come

13 inside. So I climbed up on the first floor, and there

14 is a sort of a widening on the landing. Near the

15 landing on the first floor there were some more guards

16 waiting there. They told them to get some whips.

17 These were special whips, they had lead balls on the

18 top, attached to them. And I buttoned up my jacket to

19 mitigate the blows for a while. Then they ordered me

20 to take off my jacket, which I did, and also my

21 T-shirt.

22 Predojevic said, "Look at the dog and kill

23 him." So they starting beating me up, and I was there

24 actually bellowing like an ox. I was in excruciating

25 pain, and I cried out because of pain; hoping that

Page 2504

1 somebody could hear me. There were some people in the

2 other offices. There was Miroslav Kvocka, Radic was

3 there. I was hoping that they would hear me and come

4 out and see why was somebody crying out in pain so

5 much, why were they killing -- beating up people

6 without any reason whatsoever?

7 So Predojevic at a certain point, after they

8 had had their fill of beating me up, said, "Get the

9 cattle out of here. Let him die out there." So they

10 took me out and I went and joined the other camp

11 inmates on the pista. I was dying of thirst. I was

12 asking for water. Fortunately there was a bottle of

13 water. Nikola Matanovic, who was a Croat, he luckily

14 had some water; he was also a haulier, and he gave me

15 that water and I drank it up.

16 They tried to do something with me, they put

17 some dressings on my wounds, and they covered my

18 bruises with them, some makeshift dressings. Anyway, I

19 managed to survive and here I am.

20 Q. You mentioned the names of the guards

21 Predojevic, Paspalj. Did you recognise any other

22 persons who beat you? Were these the same persons that

23 you mentioned earlier in your testimony?

24 A. Paspalj and Predojevic are the same Paspalj

25 and Predojevic. I don't know the other ones. I would

Page 2505

1 recognise them if I saw them.

2 Q. Did you sustain any injuries due to this

3 beating?

4 A. My thoracic bone, my thorax, the right-side

5 of my chest, was broken. My legs were also very weak.

6 I tried to do some bowling, I can't do it any more. I

7 used to play football before, I can't do that any more

8 either.

9 Q. Were there any other instances that you were

10 beating during the time that you were detained in the

11 camp?

12 A. We would be beaten up as we went to lunch or

13 as we went out to use the lavatory. I talked to the

14 other inmates. This was something quite ordinary.

15 This was not counted as -- considered some special

16 beating. What was considered a special beating was

17 when you were individually singled out and taken out to

18 be beaten. But this was something quite normal.

19 Q. Did anybody, any people who were in authority

20 intervene when this kind of beating happened?

21 Especially the time that you were beaten, did they

22 intervene to stop that or prevent it?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Are you aware as to whether any of these

25 guards who were involved in this kind of abuse or

Page 2506

1 misconduct were ever punished?

2 A. No. To my knowledge, no.

3 Q. You said that you were taken to the first

4 floor of a building. Which building was that?

5 A. That was the administration building.

6 Q. You said that they tried to help you with the

7 dressing. Who are these people whom you referred to as

8 "they," after you were beaten?

9 A. The inmates who were on the pista.

10 Q. The other detainees.

11 A. Yes. The very fact that they just gave me

12 some water helped immensely immediately after that

13 beating.

14 Q. For how long were you detained in Omarska,

15 the total extent of time?

16 A. I left Omarska on the 28th of July.

17 Q. Would you describe to the Court how you were

18 transferred to the other place and what took place

19 during your transfer.

20 A. There were cases of lads, 17 years of age,

21 who had muscular dystrophy and who couldn't go out by

22 themselves, and then there were other elderly and

23 invalid people. So Esad asked that these people should

24 be released. There were other detainees who reported

25 to the doctor with different ailments and pains, so

Page 2507

1 that Dr. Ivic one day arrived in Omarska.

2 I knew him from before and I told him,

3 "Please get me out of here because they're going to

4 kill me." They returned me to Mujo's room again, and

5 after some 15 minutes they called my name and we went

6 out onto the pista to go home. There were 100 of us

7 chosen to go home, mostly elderly people.

8 That night we did not go home because there

9 was not fuel for that. Then we were transferred to the

10 hangar, upstairs to the offices, in fact, that were

11 there. There we spent another three days, and then

12 that day came, when in the morning Marmat

13 was roll-calling the people, and said, "When I call out

14 your names, you will have to state your address and

15 your name and your number." So we left the hangar and

16 went downstairs.

17 The bus was parked downstairs, and when we --

18 we had another roll-call by Marmat in front of the bus

19 as well. As I was departing for home, before that

20 Mladen Radic was present there during the roll-call.

21 Marmat called again the people's names, and when he

22 said Zlatan Blazevic, he said,"You are the one. You go

23 back." Zlatan went back. We boarded the bus and went

24 to Trnopolje. We actually thought we were going home,

25 but we went westward and were driven to Trnopolje.

Page 2508

1 Q. You said the second time that you were called

2 out, a person by the name of Marmat called you out.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Who was this person?

5 A. He was a mechanic for bulldozers, and he

6 worked in Omarska.

7 Q. What was he in the camp, in the Omarska camp?

8 A. There he was a guard.

9 Q. How was he dressed? Was he armed?

10 A. Yes, he was armed. He wore a blue summer

11 uniform, a policeman's blue uniform.

12 Q. You said that there was this person who you

13 referred to as Krkan was present. Is this the same

14 person whom you testified earlier as Krkan?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How was he dressed? Did you see him then?

17 A. Yes. He was also wearing a blue policeman's

18 uniform.

19 Q. Was he armed?

20 A. Yes, he was.

21 Q. What was he doing there?

22 A. He was standing there.

23 Q. You mentioned a person by the name of Zlatan

24 Blazevic who was stopped heading into the bus?

25 A. Blazevic.

Page 2509

1 Q. Who stopped him getting into the bus?

2 A. It was Marmat who said, "You are the one.

3 You go back." As far as I could see, as far as I could

4 sense, when we were being roll-called to board the bus,

5 I think it was Marmat. But I did hear someone say,

6 "You are the one. You go back."

7 Q. This person Marmat, did you see him often in

8 the camp?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Did you know as to which shift or what time

11 he worked, in whose shift he worked?

12 A. He worked in Mladjo's shift. It was a

13 12-hour shift, from 7.00 a.m. to 7.00 p.m.

14 Q. Why do you name this shift in the name of

15 these people, such as Krkan?

16 A. Because that's how they were called. All the

17 detainees said, for instance, "Tomorrow we have Krkan's

18 shift," and there was another guard, commander, whose

19 name was Ckalja. Of course, that was a nickname. We

20 would also refer to his shift as Ckalja's shift. Then

21 there was a third one named Krle, and that was his

22 shift, and so on.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I apologise

24 for interrupting but I see that Mr. Fila wanted to

25 intervene perhaps with regard to Mladja. He is Mladjo,

Page 2510

1 I believe; is that right? Go ahead, Mr. Fila.

2 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] It says Mahmut as

3 well in the transcript where it should be Marmat.

4 Marmat. If he were Mahmut, he would be a Muslim.

5 That's the first thing.

6 Secondly, when the witness says Mladjo Radic,

7 the Prosecutor should not refer to him as Krkan. When

8 the witness says Krkan, then it's all right for him to

9 say Krkan, but they should stick to the names given by

10 the witness.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. We

12 always have problems with names. But I know that the

13 court reporters revise their work and correct it

14 afterwards. But, yes, if the witness says Mladjo

15 Radic, then indeed that name should be repeated and not

16 be referred to as Krkan.

17 Please go ahead, Mr. Waidyaratne.

18 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I will. Thank you, Your

19 Honour.

20 Q. This person whom you referred to as --

21 sorry. Witness, the person whom you referred to as

22 Marmat, could you explain as to whether he was referred

23 to as Marmat?

24 A. Yes, Marmat.

25 Q. Have you seen Zlatan Blazevic thereafter in

Page 2511

1 the camp, thereafter.

2 A. [No interpretation].

3 Q. Did you see him in Trnopolje --

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not

5 hear the answer.

6 A. No.


8 Q. Did you see him in Trnopolje?

9 A. No.

10 Q. You said that you were transferred to

11 Trnopolje. How were you transferred?

12 A. By bus.

13 Q. How many people were in the bus, and who were

14 they?

15 A. There were civilians. There were Muslims and

16 Croats there as well. 99 of us were transported in two

17 buses.

18 Q. They were the detainees who were with you in

19 Omarska; is that correct?

20 A. Yes. Yes.

21 Q. How long did you stay in Trnopolje before you

22 were released?

23 A. I stayed in Trnopolje for two days.

24 Q. How did you come out of that place?

25 A. That day, when I left Trnopolje, I went to

Page 2512

1 the medical centre. There were a lot of people who

2 were ill. And I went to see a doctor to ask him to

3 give me some pills, and I met Zoran Tomicevic, a Serb

4 soldier, at the infirmary. I knew him, we worked

5 together. He found it difficult to recognise me

6 because I had lost 36 kilograms. I said hello to him

7 and I greeted him too, and he said, "Would you like to

8 go home?" And I thought he was joking, and he said,

9 "Yes, really. If you want to I'll take you home."

10 And then he went to ask permission. He asked

11 Slobodan Kuruzovic whether I could go home, and he said

12 that that can't be done that way, that there was

13 certain procedure. But Zoran just took a list and

14 wrote my name and surname on the list, where it had

15 been said that I had been killed, and then he told me

16 to get into the car. We got into his blue Golf, and he

17 took me to my own backyard.

18 Q. You went home to your house in Raskovac.

19 A. From Trnopolje we stopped off in a cafe

20 called Grmec which existed before the war. We went

21 there and then from that cafe we went to my house. He

22 brought me to my own yard.

23 Q. At home, were the other members of your

24 family present?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2513

1 Q. Did you get to know what happened to them in

2 your absence?

3 A. I learnt that they had been in Trnopolje, my

4 two sons and my wife, and they left Trnopolje, they

5 came home, and I found them at home when I arrived.

6 Q. Now, sir, in your testimony you referred to a

7 person by the name of Mladjo Radic, also known as

8 Krkan.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you please look around the courtroom

11 and indicate as to whether you can identify or cannot

12 that person.

13 A. That's Mladen Radic, sitting there in the

14 back row, to the left. When I look at him, he is to

15 the left. Otherwise, he is to the right.

16 Q. Could you say how he is dressed?

17 A. He's wearing a suit with a tie and a red

18 shirt.

19 Q. Could you tell from the door his position

20 from the security officer who is seated there?

21 A. He is next to the guard, the first from the

22 door.

23 MR. WAIDYARATNE: It may be noted, Your

24 Honour, that the witness identifies the accused.

25 Q. You also referred to -- testified about a

Page 2514

1 person by the name of Miroslav Kvocka, whom you said

2 that you knew earlier. Could you look around the court

3 and identify, or could you see and identify whether he

4 is present in court today.

5 A. Yes. Miroslav Kvocka is sitting next to

6 Radic.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. WAIDYARATNE: It may be noted that the

9 witness identifies the accused. Thank you, Your

10 Honour.

11 Q. Now, sir, you said that you went home and you

12 stayed in your house. Until when -- did you leave

13 Bosnia?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When did you leave?

16 A. On the 17th of November, it was a Wednesday,

17 of 1992, I left.

18 Q. From the time that you came home and the time

19 that you left Bosnia, where were you?

20 A. (redacted)

21 Q. Witness, my question was: From the time you

22 came from Trnopolje and the time that you left the

23 country, were you at home?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were you able to -- what was the condition?

Page 2515

1 Were you able to move around freely?

2 A. No, I wasn't even allowed to cough. My wife

3 was so frightened, and if I would cough at night she

4 would put my hand over my mouth so that the sound

5 couldn't be heard, because she didn't want them to know

6 that there was a male in the house.

7 Q. For you to leave Bosnia, did you have to do

8 anything in order to leave?

9 A. I had to sign papers that I was handing over

10 my house, my car, and my little summer house, that I

11 was bequeathing everything that I had. I just took a

12 bag with photographs, my family photographs, with me.

13 Q. Did the family go with you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, sir, can you explain to the Court what

16 long-term effects, if any, whether psychological or

17 physical, setbacks that you have had due to the

18 detention in the camp and the conditions that you faced

19 in the camp?

20 A. I have physical repercussions. My ribs were

21 broken. Psychological as well. I get up in the middle

22 of the night and have to smoke and walk around; this

23 isn't too frequent but it does happen, especially if I

24 look at the television and see Omarska on it. Of

25 course, when you see pictures, this reminds you of all

Page 2516

1 your own images, people who were beaten up and

2 mistreated in the camp, the times when we went to

3 lunch -- it wasn't actually lunch, the food was so bad,

4 but anyway.

5 Q. Now, sir, you said that when you left Bosnia

6 that you had to hand over and sign papers giving your

7 property. To whom were these papers signed and given?

8 A. Well, the people who were patrolling. They

9 were wearing the uniform of the Yugoslav People's Army

10 and you knew that they were Serbs because of their

11 uniform. And they patrolled my street and they said

12 that we were not allowed to take anything out of the

13 house, and if they saw us, this wouldn't be a good

14 thing. So they said that we were not to take

15 anything. And we went into the shed. And all the

16 people who were to leave Prijedor had to sign away

17 their property, sign pieces of paper granting them a

18 permit to leave town.

19 Q. In order to leave your country, did you have

20 to pay any money to any organisation?

21 A. I, for example, paid -- that is to say, I had

22 to send in all the bills. I didn't have any heating,

23 but I had to pay heating bills. I had to pay for the

24 sort of central heating which I didn't have, and other

25 papers that I had to sign and other bills. And when I

Page 2517

1 got all these papers, I went to the Red Cross and they

2 issued a sort of permit allowing us to leave.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. WAIDYARATNE: That will be the end of the

5 direct examination of this witness, Your Honour.

6 I seek your permission to make a correction

7 with regard to the exhibits which I would intend to

8 produce at the end of the cross-examination --

9 re-examination. The exhibit item number which was

10 referred to as 3/77A originally, and marked and

11 produced, as the witness marked certain -- made some

12 markings, I would mark it afresh as it would be a new

13 exhibit, and mark it as 3/92. Thank you, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

15 very much, Mr. Waidyaratne.

16 Mr. Krstan Simic.

17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

18 we have not had occasion to make any agreements, so we

19 will follow the order of the indictment, and if any of

20 the Defence counsel have questions, they will

21 cross-examine the witness in that order, which means

22 that I will be the first to begin with the cross.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So it is

24 the order in which the accused are listed in the

25 indictment.

Page 2518

1 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness,

3 you are now going to answer questions which are going

4 to be put to you by Defence counsel. The first will be

5 Mr. Krstan Simic who has some questions for you.

6 You have the floor, Mr. Simic.

7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

8 Your Honours.

9 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

10 Q. Mr. Alisic, you have already heard that I am

11 Defence counsel for Mr. Kvocka, and I have several

12 questions for you linked to your examination-in-chief

13 today.

14 You said that you know Prijedor well because

15 you lived there ever since birth.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. I should like us to try and clarify a little

18 bit, for everyone's benefit, the path, the route, from

19 the car market to the SUP building where you stopped

20 for the first time.

21 A. Very well.

22 Q. Will you tell us where the car market is in

23 Prijedor?

24 A. It is in my street, Muharema Seljanovica

25 Street, next to the leather factory.

Page 2519

1 Q. Is it a densely populated part of town?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How far is the SUP building from the car

4 market, or rather could you describe the path the bus

5 took?

6 A. I could. The bus I was in passed by the

7 market, turned right towards the SDK building, the

8 bank, then turned left next to the town planning

9 building, past the stadium; then you turn right and you

10 come to where Safet's cafe used to be, called Rudar;

11 then you turn right, next to the old Balkan Hotel, and

12 then straight ahead to the SUP building.

13 Q. How long is that whole route? You're a

14 driver so you know it well.

15 A. With all the turnings, it is about 1.000

16 metres.

17 Q. As I know Prijedor well too, let us confirm

18 once again, are these roads, town roads, roads with

19 buildings on both sides, housing estates?

20 A. There are no private houses there; there are

21 just apartment buildings. If you know Prijedor well,

22 the stadium is there so there are no houses.

23 Q. In the course of your testimony, you

24 mentioned that you were sitting on the right-hand side,

25 next to the window, in the bus.

Page 2520

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You didn't mention which row of seats.

3 A. I was roughly in the middle of the bus.

4 Q. So about the tenth row?

5 A. About the middle of the bus, or to be more

6 precise, I was right next to the door in the middle of

7 the bus, because this was a bus with three doors.

8 Q. On the route from the car market to the SUP

9 building, where you stopped for the first time, you

10 spoke of bodies.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where did you see those bodies, in which

13 streets?

14 A. I said that I saw them when we reached the

15 market, the green market. There's a kiosk on the

16 right-hand side there. In front of that kiosk, I saw

17 some bodies. On the left-hand side, on the pavement, I

18 saw bodies. Actually, that is where my street

19 intersects with the street of the market.

20 Q. Mr. Alisic, are we talking about corpses seen

21 from the bus or once you reached the market?

22 A. From the bus. As we reached the market,

23 there were bodies at the market and I saw them from the

24 bus. The bus was mobile; it was moving.

25 Q. So you said on the left-hand side.

Page 2521

1 A. On both the left and the right-hand side. On

2 the right there's a kiosk; I saw some dead civilians

3 there, to my right, as we were going, to my right, on

4 my right-hand side.

5 Q. You frequently stressed the fact that you saw

6 people wearing uniforms of the Yugoslav People's Army.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were there any other kinds of uniforms in the

9 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time, at the end

10 of 1992?

11 A. Not in Prijedor.

12 Q. So they were the only uniforms that existed

13 there.

14 A. Yes, of course. I also served the Yugoslav

15 army.

16 Q. Let us now try and clarify the circumstances

17 linked to your arrival in Omarska. Could you tell us

18 more closely what time it could have been?

19 A. It was dark, I know. I know that it was 2.30

20 when I left my house; I know that for sure. First the

21 women and children were boarded onto buses, and the

22 elderly; then they started boarding us. Whether I was

23 in the first or the third or the fifth bus, I really

24 don't know. It's very difficult to tell. But it was

25 just before darkness fell that we reached Omarska.

Page 2522

1 Q. Mr. Alisic, in your testimony you mentioned

2 that at the time when arriving at Omarska, you noticed

3 three persons whom you named as Predojevic, Popovic,

4 and Paspalj; you said that you knew those persons very

5 well from before, and you described your contacts with

6 them, didn't you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you tell us the first names of those

9 people? Because you only used their surnames.

10 A. No.

11 Q. Not one of their first names?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Let's go back to the moment when you actually

14 arrived in Omarska. You said that there was a bus in

15 front of you and then your bus. Were there other buses

16 behind you?

17 A. I don't remember.

18 Q. How far was your bus from the bus in front of

19 you?

20 A. They were one next to the other.

21 Q. I see. You knew Mr. Predojevic well.

22 A. I have described how I met him. We met in

23 the timber yard and so on.

24 Q. Yes, but we're talking about his

25 identification. So there is no doubt that the person

Page 2523

1 who shot at that time was Mr. Predojevic, whom you knew

2 and whom you have described.

3 A. Yes, it was him.

4 Q. Could you tell us, since you said there were

5 six persons, were all six killed or were any wounded?

6 A. They were all dead. They were lying on the

7 asphalt. No one moved, not one of them moved.

8 Q. From the shooting, and when those six persons

9 lay on the asphalt, as you say, dead, what happened

10 next?

11 A. The order was for the next six men to come

12 out with their hands behind their heads, and then they

13 would say that we had to go on towards the entrance of

14 the administrative building.

15 Q. And that was the procedure for each group of

16 six.

17 A. Yes. We would go one by one, hands against

18 the walls, searching. Name, surname, year of birth,

19 address, we had to give those particulars.

20 Q. Roughly how much time passed between the

21 shooting and your entrance into the administrative

22 building?

23 A. Roughly 20 minutes or a half hour.

24 Q. Did any vehicle or ambulance arrive?

25 A. No.

Page 2524

1 Q. Did you hear it coming later?

2 A. No.

3 Q. So you went straight to Mujo's room.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. During your testimony you said that there

6 were very many people, too many people there, and that

7 you were put up in the toilet, together with some

8 others.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. After you arrived at Mujo's room, were there

11 other men coming to Mujo's room?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Where were they put up?

14 A. To the hall in front of the toilet, to Mujo's

15 room. We were overcrowded.

16 Q. During your testimony you mentioned the

17 investigators.

18 A. Yes, those who questioned us.

19 Q. Where did they work?

20 A. They worked on the upstairs floor of the

21 administrative building.

22 Q. How often during your stay there did you

23 climb upstairs to the administrative building?

24 A. Twice; when I was beaten and when I was

25 interrogated.

Page 2525

1 Q. When were you interrogated?

2 A. I was interrogated roughly in the second half

3 of June.

4 Q. You were not questioned on the 4th of June?

5 A. No.

6 Q. In front of the investigators' room, did you

7 see any investigators there?

8 A. No.

9 Q. When you were interrogated, in what room did

10 that take place?

11 A. The second room to the left.

12 Q. Who were the investigators?

13 A. There was a moustached, shorter man from

14 Banja Luka, Brka.

15 Q. When you went to Trnopolje, you mentioned

16 Zoran Tomasevic [sic].

17 A. Tomicevic.

18 Q. I see. Tomicevic. Who is Zoran Tomicevic?

19 A. He is an auto mechanic like me. We went to

20 school together and then he went to advance training.

21 Then he was in a department called the hygienic

22 technical safety department; HTZ, it was called.

23 Q. In view of your education and occupation,

24 would you say that he was an important person?

25 A. I wouldn't, not really, though we were good

Page 2526

1 friends.

2 Q. Slobodan Kuruzovic, what was he?

3 A. Slobodan Kuruzovic was a teacher of

4 mathematics.

5 Q. You said in Trnopolje. What was he there?

6 A. Slobodan Kuruzovic was the commander of the

7 camp.

8 Q. Zoran Tomicevic, did he have any military

9 rank?

10 A. I don't know. He didn't wear any insignia on

11 his uniform. He wore a JNA camouflage uniform, but he

12 didn't wear any insignia of rank on his shoulder or on

13 his collar.

14 Q. A man of no great importance, without any

15 rank, comes and writes down that you are killed, and

16 you leave. During your testimony you said that there

17 were extremists who would come and no one could do

18 anything to them; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. During your testimony, you mentioned when you

21 went to the hangar. Was there a wire fence?

22 A. A wire fence? Yes. The points were at a

23 distance of 15 centimetres; the distance between the

24 spikes was 15 centimetres.

25 Q. You said that there was an area encircled by

Page 2527

1 barbed wire in the hangar. Could you tell us what it

2 encircled, that barbed wire?

3 A. That barbed wire was in front of us, to the

4 side, where there is a big gate for large trucks of 110

5 tonnes. From that door to the end of the second wall

6 was barbed wire, and it was about one metre, twenty

7 high, the barbed wire fence.

8 Q. Let me go back to the event of the 30th of

9 April. Did you personally see the shooting and the

10 killing of six men?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you see anyone you knew, apart from these

13 three persons that you mentioned, Predojevic, Paspalj,

14 I think, and Popovic?

15 A. No.

16 Q. How did you manage to hear the words spoken

17 by Predojevic?

18 A. I heard them loud and clear.

19 Q. Were they uttered before, during, or after

20 the shooting?

21 A. After the shooting. After he opened fire,

22 the men fell and then he said, "Balija, you should know

23 where you have come and what lies in store for you."

24 Q. Mr. Alisic, I have no further questions for

25 you. Thank you very much for your answers. I deeply

Page 2528

1 regret everything you have been through.

2 A. Thank you.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

4 Mr. Krstan Simic.

5 Mr. Nikolic.

6 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

7 the Defence of Milojica Kos will not cross-examine

8 Mr. Alisic. Thank you.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

10 very much, Mr. Nikolic.

11 Mr. Fila, it is your turn now. You have the

12 floor.

13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

14 Mr. President. I shall be very, very brief.

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Fila:

16 Q. Mr. Alisic, after all your suffering I don't

17 want to make you suffer any more, so I shall be very

18 brief.

19 You mentioned barbed wire. Were the trucks

20 behind that fence? What was the purpose of that fence?

21 A. There were no inmates there. We were the

22 first group to go there. My group went there, and I

23 found the barbed wire fence already there.

24 Q. So it was there to protect those trucks?

25 A. No. I've just explained. I've shown you

Page 2529

1 from what gate to which wall, and we were in that area,

2 within the barbed wire fence, right next to the main

3 wall. And there was a passage through which we passed

4 and that is where we stayed.

5 Q. How high was the fence?

6 A. It was about one metre, one metre, twenty;

7 about four or five rows of these wires.

8 Q. If I understood you correctly, you said that

9 there were three shifts.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you said that they worked from 7.00 to

12 7.00.

13 A. Yes, from 7.00 to 7.00, 12 hours each. A day

14 shift and a night shift.

15 Q. What happens when a shift works from 7.00 in

16 the morning until 7.00 in the evening?

17 A. Then the next shift comes from 7.00 in the

18 evening until 7.00 in the morning.

19 Q. And then?

20 A. Then the other one that was free during the

21 day takes over, again from 7.00 in the morning to 7.00

22 in the evening.

23 Q. So one shift was always free. What happens

24 after the third shift?

25 A. The one that worked during the night would be

Page 2530

1 free the next day, and then it would be on duty the

2 following day.

3 Q. I see. Very well. You said that when you

4 arrived -- the first day was the 30th of May, if I'm

5 not mistaken.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. That you found those guards there and that

8 those guards were in Krkan's shift; isn't that so?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When did Krkan's shift come on duty again the

11 next time?

12 A. Krkan's shift should come -- if it was

13 working the night shift, then it would be free the next

14 day.

15 Q. But it was on duty when you arrived.

16 A. I didn't know at the time that it was Mladjo

17 Radic's shift. I didn't know who was a guard or where

18 I had come to or anything, I knew nothing at all, or

19 who were the shift leaders.

20 Q. We'll come to that. But when did you see

21 Krkan for the first time?

22 A. I saw him maybe after I had stayed there for

23 two days. Perhaps two days.

24 Q. A couple of days.

25 A. Yes, a couple of days.

Page 2531

1 Q. That's all I wanted to know. If you came in

2 the evening, that was before 7.00, I assume, before

3 darkness fell.

4 A. Well, I can't be so specific. I really don't

5 remember the hour.

6 Q. Of course. I know that. How could you? But

7 if you say it was Krkan's shift, was it the night shift

8 or was it the last hours of the day shift?

9 A. I think it must have been the night shift. I

10 said that when I arrived in the camp -- I never allege

11 that it was Krkan's shift. I just said that Popovic,

12 Paspalj, and Predojevic were in Krkan's shift. That

13 day when I arrived, I didn't mention Krkan's shift. I

14 didn't say that.

15 Q. But you mentioned these three names.

16 A. That is correct.

17 Q. Then later on you said that they were members

18 of Krkan's shift.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. My question is: Was that the night shift

21 when you arrived?

22 A. I think it was the night shift.

23 Q. If it was the night shift, then its turn

24 would come again when?

25 A. This was a Saturday, so they should have been

Page 2532

1 free on Sunday and they should have come again on

2 Monday, for the morning. That was the timetable of the

3 shifts.

4 Q. So it was Saturday, until Sunday morning;

5 then from Sunday morning until Monday morning, it

6 couldn't have been the same shift.

7 A. Yes. No.

8 Q. You said that you were watching the changing

9 of shifts. What did that look like?

10 A. First of all, we didn't hear what people were

11 saying. Two buses would come. The guards would go out

12 who were on duty. If Mladjo Radic was the shift

13 leader, he would line them up, speak to them. I

14 wouldn't hear what he said. I saw them, though,

15 because I was on the pista. The same applied to Ckalja

16 or Kos; they would line them up.

17 Q. Would a flag be raised?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Was anything sung?

20 A. No.

21 Q. You used to come to this facility before.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was there a water supply system there?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. It is the same water supply system that

Page 2533

1 existed before and when you were there in the camp?

2 A. Yes, the same one.

3 Q. The same water that flowed before flowed when

4 you were there.

5 A. I assume so. The same taps were there.

6 Q. The same water, yes. You mentioned a person

7 Cvitan and then Pavlic or Pavsic.

8 A. I'm not quite sure about that name, but all

9 the inmates know him. They called him Cvitan, and the

10 guards too, and the reason was he had a strand of white

11 hair here.

12 Q. What I'm interested in is whether that is one

13 and the same person.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How did you know which shift he belonged to?

16 A. Because I know the composition. Popovic,

17 Paspalj, Predojevic, he was there, and then someone

18 called Marmat. We got to know that shift because it

19 was Mladjo Radic's shift, because the beatings were the

20 worst by Paspalj, Predojevic, and Popovic. It was

21 unbearable, and it's normal that one should remember

22 that.

23 Q. I believe that to be so, as this has been

24 repeated in other testimonies. Apart from these men,

25 how many others were in that shift?

Page 2534

1 A. You mean in the same shift?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. Once when we were on the pista we wanted to

4 count them, and we didn't manage because you dare not

5 really look in one direction for too long. I think

6 there were between 30 and 40 men in one shift. That is

7 my opinion.

8 Q. Apart from these names that you have

9 enumerated, do you remember any other names from the

10 same shift?

11 A. I know their faces.

12 Q. But not their names?

13 A. No.

14 Q. So can I conclude that the judgement that you

15 made of Krkan's shift was based on the behaviour of

16 these four men?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. If I understood you correctly, you said that

19 you never noticed him being present when this was

20 happening.

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. Did you ever notice him giving orders? The

23 Prosecutor asked you whether anyone protected you. But

24 did you notice him giving orders to any one of these

25 four?

Page 2535

1 A. No.

2 Q. Can one infer from that, at least as an

3 assumption, that they may have done this arbitrarily,

4 of their own free will?

5 A. It could, but we, as inmates, felt that the

6 shift leaders and the camp commanders should protect

7 us, and we expected them to protect us.

8 Q. But did the guards have to have special

9 orders, or did they act of their own free will?

10 A. Yes. They didn't need any orders.

11 Q. So they acted arbitrarily?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Regarding Cvitan and Pavlic, do you know what

14 his surname is?

15 A. The surname was Pavletic, I think. But

16 Cvitan, everybody knows him by his nickname, Cvitan.

17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you. That

18 would be all, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

20 very much, Mr. Fila.

21 Mr. Tosic, do you have any questions?

22 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the

23 Defence of Zoran Zigic has no questions or

24 cross-examination for this witness. Thank you.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

Page 2536

1 very much.

2 Mr. Jovan Simic.

3 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] We have no

4 questions either, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Fine.

6 Mr. Waidyaratne, any additional questions,

7 any re-examination?

8 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Just to clear up one

9 matter, Your Honour.


11 Re-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:

12 Q. Learned counsel for the accused Radic,

13 Mr. Fila, asked you with regard to two names. He

14 referred you to the person by the name of Pavlic and

15 another by the name of Cvitan. Were they the same

16 person?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. WAIDYARATNE: That's all. Your Honour, I

20 would tender the exhibit numbers which have been marked

21 through this witness, 3/77 -- I'm sorry, Your Honour.

22 It should be 3/90, 3/91, and 3/92; 3/90 is the

23 photograph of the model of the Omarska camp; 3/91 is

24 the photograph where the witness and the victim who was

25 referred to as Gordan Kardumovic are seen; and 3/92 was

Page 2537

1 the diagram where the witness marked certain places.

2 Thank you.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Before

4 ruling on this request, I wish to give the floor to

5 Judge Wald for her questions.

6 Questioned by the Court:

7 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Alisic, you testified, I

8 believe, that there was a time when a truck came and

9 dead bodies were loaded onto the truck, and you saw

10 this from your position on the pista, and you also saw

11 that Mr. Kvocka was nearby.

12 Can you tell me approximately how many dead

13 bodies were loaded onto that truck and whether or not

14 you had seen those dead bodies there for any period

15 before the truck came and took them away?

16 A. It was a Sunday, and the truck came, that is

17 true, and the bodies were loaded onto it. There were

18 roughly ten bodies, ten or so bodies. I had not seen

19 those people before. I saw them being loaded and

20 driven off, and the driver's name was Vlado Kobas.

21 JUDGE WALD: Thank you. My next question

22 is: You mentioned that, I believe, if I remember

23 correctly, that you had known or at least had had an

24 acquaintance with these few men, Paspalj and

25 Predojevic, who had beaten you. I wondered whether or

Page 2538

1 not at any point in the beatings did they give you any

2 reason for why they were singling you out, at that

3 time, for these especially brutal beatings, with the

4 whips with the iron, or whatever it was, balls at the

5 end? Was there any explanation, why you?

6 A. No.

7 JUDGE WALD: In your experience, did you

8 know, see, or hear about others getting this kind of

9 beating with the whips with the irons at the end?

10 A. Yes.

11 JUDGE WALD: My last question is: You told

12 us that you recognised some of the people as guards and

13 that at least after you had been at Omarska a while you

14 knew that Mr. Radic was a shift commander, and you

15 mentioned seeing several times Mr. Kvocka whom you had

16 some acquaintance with before Omarska. What role did

17 you think Mr. Kvocka was playing? A guard, a shift

18 commander, or something else in the camp?

19 A. Kvocka was, at first, the camp commander.

20 JUDGE WALD: Did you learn or understand that

21 to be so from what you heard from other inmates, or was

22 there some other source from which you knew that?

23 A. We learned that when we were taken to the

24 pista. Miroslav Kvocka said that himself.

25 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.

Page 2539

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

2 very much, Judge Wald.

3 Witness, I personally have two questions.

4 The first: You said that when Plavsic beat Nasic,

5 Kvocka was next -- was right there. Do you remember

6 that?

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You marked

9 the position on Exhibit 3/92. Was Kvocka inside the

10 restaurant or outside?

11 A. Outside the restaurant, next to Cvitan.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Outside.

13 Thank you.

14 My second question: When you were beaten by

15 Paspalj and Predojevic, you said that you expected

16 Kvocka or Radic to come out to prevent this

17 mistreatment. Why did you expect that?

18 A. I expected that because I knew that Radic was

19 shift leader and Kvocka, the camp commander. They were

20 superiors to the men who were beating me.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] At that

22 point in time did you know whether he was present in

23 the camp or not?

24 A. In that same corridor are the offices where

25 they usually stayed.

Page 2540

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You said

2 that he was almost always there. If you don't know,

3 never mind. Did you know, at that particular time when

4 you were beaten, did you know whether he was present in

5 the camp or not on that particular occasion?

6 A. No, I didn't know.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In view of

8 the circumstances, if he were present, would it be

9 possible for him to hear your cries?

10 A. Yes.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I have no

12 further questions.

13 I should now like to turn to the Defence to

14 hear from them whether they have any objections to the

15 admission of the exhibits that the Prosecutor has

16 tendered.

17 Mr. Simic, are you speaking on behalf of all

18 of your colleagues?

19 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

20 Honour, I'm speaking on behalf of the whole Defence

21 team. We have no objections to the admission of the

22 documents tendered by the Prosecution.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

24 very much, Mr. Simic. So the exhibits listed by

25 Mr. Waidyaratne are admitted into evidence.

Page 2541

1 Witness, you have finished -- Mr. Mirsad

2 Alisic, you have finished your testimony before this

3 Tribunal. You have answered a large number of

4 questions put to you. Do you have anything you would

5 like to declare that hasn't yet been said?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would just

7 like to wish that nobody should go through what we went

8 through again.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

10 Witness, very much, and we share with you those

11 wishes. We would also hope that no one should suffer

12 what you and others have suffered, and we wish you a

13 happy journey home. Thank you very much.

14 The usher will escort the witness out,

15 please.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

19 Mr. Waidyaratne.

20 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, we have 30

21 minutes more. I think we could proceed with the next

22 witness. The Prosecution calls Witness Okic Jasmir, if

23 it's ...

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps we

25 should have a brief break because I think we have been

Page 2542

1 working since 11.30, so it's been a long spell.

2 I think we must have at least a ten-minute

3 break, and then we'll resume.

4 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you.

5 --- Recess taken at 1.55 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 2.07 p.m.

7 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May I, for the Prosecution,

8 call Witness Okic Jasmir.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. We're

10 waiting for the witness.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

13 afternoon, Witness. Can you hear me?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon,

15 Your Honour. I do.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You're

17 going to read the solemn declaration handed to you by

18 the usher.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

20 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

21 and nothing but the truth.



24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be

Page 2543

1 seated, please. Are you comfortable, Mr. Jasmir Okic?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] First

4 you're going to answer questions which Mr. Waidyaratne

5 is going to put to you.

6 You have the floor, Mr. Prosecutor.

7 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:

9 Q. Could you please state your name to the

10 Court.

11 A. Jasmir Okic.

12 Q. What is your date of birth and place of

13 birth?

14 A. I was born on the 3rd of November, 1959, in

15 Rahima Bajramovica Street, Raskovac, Prijedor.

16 Q. What is your ethnicity?

17 A. I am a Muslim.

18 Q. Are you married?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you have children?

21 A. I have three.

22 Q. How old are they?

23 A. One was born in 1984, the second in 1987, and

24 the third in 1997. The first two are girls.

25 Q. Before the war, where did you live?

Page 2544

1 A. Before the war I lived in Rahima Bajramovica

2 Street, in the Raskovac neighbourhood of Prijedor.

3 Q. Where did you school, and what is your

4 education and qualifications?

5 A. I completed the primary school in Prijedor,

6 the secondary school for locksmiths also in Prijedor,

7 and the advance school for specialist locksmiths also

8 in Prijedor.

9 Q. Did you perform compulsory military service?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When and where?

12 A. I did my military service from August 1978 to

13 November 1979 in Karlovac and in Zagreb.

14 Q. Did you specialise in any -- or did you have

15 any special courses, follow any special courses, during

16 your service?

17 A. Yes. I underwent training for section leader

18 in Karlovac.

19 Q. What do you mean by "section leader"?

20 A. There was commander of a smallest group of

21 soldiers, up to ten, a squad, and then a company comes

22 later. But I was the leader of a group of ten.

23 Q. What was your employment, your occupation

24 in -- up to 1985?

25 A. Until 1985? Until 1985 I worked as a

Page 2545

1 locksmith in Bosna Montaza, Prijedor. We were working

2 on steel structures, producing steel structures.

3 Q. After 1985, did you work in any other place?

4 A. In 1985, I transferred to another company,

5 Impro, it was called, the industry of meat products in

6 Prijedor.

7 Q. Did you serve in the reserve police?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. From when and where?

10 A. I was a member of the reserve police force

11 from May 1980 until April 1992.

12 Q. Where did you serve?

13 A. Until September 1991, throughout that period,

14 we would have two or three exercises every year. We

15 had lectures, shooting exercises. And from September

16 1991 until April 1992 I worked in the Prijedor police

17 station, as part of the SUP.

18 Q. So from September 1991, you were mobilised.

19 A. Yes. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know why you were mobilised during

21 that time?

22 A. We were mobilised because of the security

23 situation. The active-duty police were designated to

24 the local communities where they lived, and we, the

25 reserve force, were called up to report to the police

Page 2546

1 station.

2 Q. What do you mean by the "security

3 situation"? Could you explain or describe to us what

4 it is?

5 A. The security situation was tense because of

6 the war in Croatia, and this had certain repercussions

7 in our area.

8 Q. What were the functions of the reserve

9 policemen at the time when you were mobilised?

10 A. When I was mobilised, I was on patrol and for

11 a time I stood guard at the bridge across the Sana

12 River, near the Prijedor Hotel.

13 Q. Where were you attached to, which police

14 station?

15 A. I was attached to the Prijedor centre police

16 station.

17 Q. Now, you said that you worked until April of

18 1992. Do you remember in the month of April which date

19 it was that you stopped work or you last worked?

20 A. My last working day, I was the third shift on

21 the 28th of April, and I finished on the 29th, in the

22 morning.

23 Q. Did you go back to work thereafter, after the

24 29th of April, 1992?

25 A. No, I didn't.

Page 2547

1 Q. Why?

2 A. On the 30th of April, the Serbs took over

3 power in Prijedor, and when they did that, the men in

4 the third shift, all the non-Serb policemen were

5 disarmed and returned home. And the next shift that

6 arrived, also the non-Serbs in that shift were disarmed

7 and told to go home. And that is why I didn't go back

8 to work either.

9 Q. Now, you refer to non-Serbs. Do you know or

10 did you come to know any persons, or could you name any

11 persons who didn't report to work after the 29th?

12 A. For instance, Mirsad Alisic, Tahir Cirkic,

13 Cirkic Enver, Nedzad Besic, Crgic Hasan.

14 Q. During the time that you served as a reserve

15 policeman, were you provided with a weapon and a

16 uniform?

17 A. Yes. I had a rifle and a uniform.

18 Q. What did you do with the weapon that you were

19 provided with?

20 A. I returned the weapon in the second half of

21 May.

22 Q. To whom did you return the weapon?

23 A. My colleague who worked with me, Nedzad Besic

24 called me up. He had returned his weapon, and he said

25 it would be a good idea to contact the SUP. I

Page 2548

1 contacted Radenko, he came to the local community, and

2 that is where we handed in the weapons and uniform.

3 Q. Now, sir, may I ask this question at this

4 stage: Were you a member of any other military or

5 paramilitary group?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you take part in any of these attacks or

8 uprisings in the town of Prijedor?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Now I will draw your attention to the 30th of

11 May, 1992. Do you remember that date?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Where were you?

14 A. On the 30th of May, I was at home. On the

15 30th of May, or rather a day or two before, I buried my

16 father and I was tired, so that on the 30th of May I

17 slept late. And then my cousin's wife arrived and

18 said, "You're sleeping and there's shooting in town."

19 So I got up, and with my family I moved over to my

20 nephew's house, together with my family.

21 Q. Was this nephew's house in Raskovac?

22 A. Yes. The house was next to mine.

23 Q. What happened when you were there, in your

24 nephew's house?

25 A. While we were there, in the afternoon, a Serb

Page 2549

1 soldier in an olive-green uniform came to the door and

2 he said, "You can take what you have with you and come

3 out and go towards the centre of town, because you're

4 not coming back here again."

5 Q. So did you adhere to these orders?

6 A. Yes, we did, and I headed down the road.

7 There were lots of other civilians and soldiers. At

8 the end of the road, there was a tank with Serb

9 soldiers on it who were showing the three-finger sign

10 and yelling and shouting.

11 Q. Did you hear what they said and what they

12 shouted at that time?

13 A. They were shouting "Do Jaja."

14 Q. What do you mean? Can you explain what it

15 meant? Did you understand what it was?

16 A. It meant going to the end.

17 Q. You said that these Serb soldiers who were on

18 top of the tank had the three-finger --

19 A. Yes, three fingers.

20 Q. What does it mean?

21 A. It meant one president, one state, one

22 people.

23 Q. Where did you proceed from your home?

24 A. We went towards Prijedor, along the old road

25 towards Skela, for a kilometre or a kilometre and a

Page 2550

1 half. We reached a field next to the old leatherworks;

2 that is where we gathered.

3 Q. Were there any other persons with you at that

4 time? Who did you see on the street while you were

5 going to this place called Skela?

6 A. There were other men, women, and children

7 there, and when we were on this field, there were some

8 houses on fire next to the old slaughtering house, at

9 the neighbourhood called Crnalici.

10 Q. From Skela, did you proceed to any other

11 place? Where did you proceed to?

12 A. While we were there, the order came that the

13 men should be separated from the women and children in

14 that field. Afterwards the order came -- or rather

15 some buses came to drive away the women and children.

16 Then they stopped that and said that the older women

17 and women and children could go back home. So only the

18 men stayed behind, and then came buses and they loaded

19 us onto those buses.

20 Q. At this stage did you recognise any person,

21 or could you tell the Court who these people were who

22 were giving orders and who were making the people get

23 into buses?

24 A. They were men under arms, soldiers in

25 uniform. But the person giving orders over a

Page 2551

1 loudspeaker was Zoran Babic, called Baki.

2 Q. Did you know this person before?

3 A. Yes. He used to train judo and karate in

4 Prijedor.

5 Q. How was he dressed, and was he armed at that

6 stage?

7 A. He was in uniform, olive-grey. He had an

8 automatic rifle and a hand-held launcher as well.

9 Q. This person by the name of Babic, do you know

10 to which ethnic group he belonged?

11 A. He was a Serb.

12 Q. You also testified, saying that women,

13 children, and men were put onto buses. Do you know to

14 which ethnic group these people belonged?

15 A. All those persons were of Muslim ethnicity.

16 Q. Now, you said that the men were put into

17 buses. Could you tell the Court what happened

18 thereafter, where the buses proceeded to?

19 A. When I got onto a bus, my bus headed toward

20 the centre of town; then it reached the Sipad company,

21 turned at Jereza, to the right, and then to the left to

22 SUP. When we reached the SUP building, the bus

23 stopped.

24 Q. Who were the people in the bus? Did you

25 recognise any of the people in the bus that you

Page 2552

1 travelled in?

2 A. In the bus, we were all civilians.

3 Q. Were there any other persons other than the

4 civilians?

5 A. There were the security soldiers, Serb

6 soldiers. There was one soldier who held a hand

7 grenade in his hand, and as soon as we got into the bus

8 he said, "Don't anyone try anything because if anyone

9 does, I will throw this grenade."

10 Q. Now, you said that the bus came and stopped

11 in front of the SUP building. How long did you all

12 stay there, and what did the people do in the bus --

13 the people in the bus do?

14 A. When the bus stopped, the guard got off and

15 told us to get off. We started getting off and then

16 someone else came and said, "Get off the back door, not

17 the front door." We went back into the bus. Then a

18 third man came and said, "Close the doors and drive

19 them further."

20 Q. So from there, did you see where you all were

21 taken to?

22 A. The bus started. It turned next to the

23 market. It was going towards the JNA building; then

24 Partizanska; at Kanafa it turned left, towards

25 Gomjenica and Cela.

Page 2553

1 Q. When you were travelling in the bus, were you

2 able to see outside?

3 A. We were ordered to bend our heads but one

4 could peep from under one's arms.

5 Q. Did you see anything outside while you were

6 travelling?

7 A. When we were turning left into Partizanska

8 Street, in front of Kanafa, on the pavement there were

9 three or four dead men lying there. And in Partizanska

10 Street, houses on fire; they were Muslim houses.

11 Q. The people that you saw on the street, you

12 said "dead people," did you see whether they were

13 civilians or whether they were people from the military

14 or the forces?

15 A. They were wearing civilian clothes.

16 Q. You said that you saw some houses on fire.

17 Did you recognise these houses? Were you able to

18 identify these houses?

19 A. Yes. Mustafa Cepic, the butcher Causevic,

20 and Omer Ecimovic, who also had a cafe bar, so his

21 house too.

22 Q. Did the buses stop thereafter, or were they

23 stopped before their final destination?

24 A. The bus was stopped once between Cela and

25 Tomasica; there was a Serb checkpoint there.

Page 2554

1 Q. Did you see as to what happened there or hear

2 anything?

3 A. They opened the door. The guard, he got off,

4 and they were shouting from outside, "Let us have them

5 so we can slaughter them, the motherfuckers."

6 Q. The people who accompanied, or the guard who

7 was in the bus, did he say anything, or did he allow

8 the people to take any persons from the bus?

9 A. No one got off. He got back into the bus,

10 they closed the door, and we continued our journey.

11 Q. And where did you finally arrive?

12 A. We finally arrived at Omarska.

13 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, I would stop

14 at this stage and continue with the witness tomorrow.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank

16 you very much, Mr. Waidyaratne.

17 As we have said, I should like to communicate

18 to the parties the agenda for tomorrow. We are having

19 a Status Conference at 4.00.

20 The first item will be judicial notice, you

21 remember well that issue; a second item will be prior

22 statements by witnesses, a question that has been

23 raised by the parties, specifically by Mr. Fila; and a

24 third item, the organisation of hearings. There's a

25 whole series of things that we need to discuss and

Page 2555

1 review.

2 I should like to ask Madam Hollis whether you

3 have any questions to add and which you would like us

4 to address at the Status Conference.

5 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, we do have one

6 matter. It has come to our attention that it is

7 possible that the accused Zigic will be raising an

8 alibi defence, and if that is true, we would ask for

9 the notice that is required under Rule 67 for alibi.

10 So perhaps that can be covered tomorrow as well.

11 I believe also, Your Honour, there is an

12 outstanding objection to a photograph that the

13 Prosecution tendered of a person with bruises on them,

14 and I believe that needs to be addressed as well.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What about

16 the Defence? Do you have any questions for the Status

17 Conference tomorrow so we can think about them in

18 advance a little?

19 Excuse me. Mr. Krstan Simic. I apologise,

20 Mr. O'Sullivan.

21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I speak in my

22 own name, Your Honour. We will not have any particular

23 questions except the question of prior statements of

24 witnesses, the scope of those statements and the use of

25 those statements. Thank you.

Page 2556

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

2 Mr. O'Sullivan, are you speaking on behalf of the

3 Defence team of Mr. Nikolic? Yes.

4 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, Your Honour. There is

5 one outstanding issue, I believe.

6 When we were last sitting, the issue came up

7 of timeliness of objections under Rule 5 as relates to

8 the formulation of questions by either the parties or

9 by Your Honours. Briefly that question was raised.

10 There were some submissions made. There may be other

11 submissions for tomorrow and a ruling from Your

12 Honours.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

14 Mr. O'Sullivan, this was already envisaged under the

15 three items that I mentioned, that is, the court

16 proceedings, but thank you for drawing our attention to

17 that.

18 Mr. Fila, no other questions?

19 Mr. Tosic?

20 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we

21 have one question linked to the discussion we had with

22 the Prosecution in connection with photographs of

23 certain persons; in view of the fact that during the

24 next few days we need to hear witnesses who did not

25 recognise our defendant, our client, but by the

Page 2557

1 description they gave in their statements, the

2 allusions refer to quite different persons. And for

3 those persons one could infer that our client was not

4 the person, according to the statements of those

5 mentioned witnesses. Those witnesses --

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me,

7 Mr. Tosic. We haven't started the Status Conference.

8 I have indicated the items of the agenda, so I'm asking

9 you to add to those items if you have anything.

10 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] So the question

11 is the photographs referred to by witnesses, and we

12 will elaborate on our arguments during the Status

13 Conference.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

15 Thank you, Mr. Tosic.

16 Mr. Jovan Simic, no? Nothing? You have

17 nothing to add? Very well, then.

18 We have all those items registered. The

19 Status Conference will be at 4.00.

20 We will be here at 9.30 to continue the

21 hearing. Witness, we will see you again tomorrow

22 morning.

23 The hearing is adjourned.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

25 2.37 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

Page 2558

1 the 6th day of June, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.