Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2841

1 Thursday, 8 June 2000

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be

6 seated.

7 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, the

8 technical booth, the interpreters; good morning, legal

9 assistants and court reporters; good morning to the

10 Prosecution, Ms. Hollis and Mr. Waidyaratne; good

11 morning to the Defence. I see we're all present. Good

12 morning to the accused.

13 We're going to resume our hearing. Have the

14 witness brought in, please.

15 [The witness entered court]


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

19 morning, Witness. Can you hear me? Can you hear me,

20 Witness?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

22 Honour, I can.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

24 morning. Are you feeling well?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

Page 2842

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I would

2 like to remind you that you are continuing to testify

3 under oath, and today you are going to answer questions

4 by the Defence attorneys.

5 Mr. Krstan Simic, what is the order for the

6 cross-examination. I can see that you will be the

7 first.

8 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Good morning,

9 Your Honour.

10 The cross-examination will be in the order in

11 which the accused are listed in the indictment, but the

12 representatives of Mr. Kos have no questions. So we

13 will follow the order with the exception of the Defence

14 team for Mr. Kos.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Fine.

16 Thank you very much, Mr. Simic. You may begin. You

17 have the floor.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

19 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mrkalj.

20 A. Good morning.

21 Q. We will be talking today about a number of

22 issues, and I hope we will be able to clarify a certain

23 number of things.

24 During your testimony yesterday you said that

25 you graduated from the School of Internal Affairs; it

Page 2843

1 is a secondary level school in Sarajevo. Upon

2 graduation, were you obliged to do your regular

3 military service?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Regardless of the fact that you were under no

6 obligation to do your regular military service, were

7 you duty-bound as a military conscript to report to the

8 competent Defence Ministry, or one of its departments

9 depending on your place of residence?

10 A. Could you clear up exactly what you mean?

11 Could you clarify that, please?

12 Q. As an able-bodied man, of age, were you

13 duty-bound to report to the competent military

14 authorities as a military conscript, to be listed?

15 A. The records were kept automatically, because

16 upon graduation my military service was automatically

17 recognised.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me

19 for interrupting you.

20 Witness, are you having a problem? Is

21 something wrong?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, a little.

23 I have a bit of a headache but we can continue.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Are you

25 sure? Are you capable of continuing?

Page 2844

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, I'll

2 try.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] If you say

4 you are capable, then there is nothing I can do.

5 Mr. Simic, you may continue.

6 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

7 Your Honour.

8 Q. You were not obliged to serve in the army,

9 but were you a conscript, according to the laws in

10 force in Yugoslavia at the time?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. When you were working in Belgrade, in which

13 municipality were you recorded as a military conscript?

14 A. I told you already, that was done

15 automatically and I was in the municipality of Savski

16 Vijenac. I didn't have to report myself; I was listed

17 automatically.

18 Q. In 1988 you started working in the

19 municipality of Prijedor, which is another municipality

20 and another republic in Yugoslavia at the time. Did

21 you report your change of address to the municipality

22 in which you said you had been automatically

23 registered?

24 A. What do you mean?

25 Q. As a military conscript; that's what we're

Page 2845

1 talking about.

2 A. As a military conscript. All this is done

3 automatically. All my documents were transferred to

4 Prijedor municipality, to the public security station

5 and to the military department. My only responsibility

6 was to report my new address.

7 Q. Did you get a wartime assignment in Prijedor

8 municipality?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Could the

11 usher distribute these copies for Their Honours, the

12 Prosecution, and the witness, please.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Is there a

14 problem with the English translation? No?

15 THE REGISTRAR: The English translation will

16 be D27/1A, and in B/C/S, D27/1.

17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Mrkalj, you have in front of you a

19 certificate of the Defence Ministry, Prijedor

20 department, in which it says that: "Edin Mrkalj, son

21 of Husein, born on the 13th of June, after the Savski

22 Vijenac municipality in Belgrade, reported on the 13th

23 of December, 1977 to the Military Department," and that

24 your military duties were linked to the public security

25 station in Prijedor as a policeman.

Page 2846

1 It is also stated that you had the military

2 speciality number "11.107, policeman," without any

3 superior position which, in wartime conditions, is the

4 equivalent to a foot soldier. Is that correct? Your

5 military obligation when you moved to Prijedor.

6 A. I told you, I didn't go to the military

7 department. This was automatic. In order to get

8 employment, this was done automatically.

9 Q. Mr. Mrkalj, you spoke frequently yesterday

10 about rules and procedures. You're a policeman; you

11 have a military obligation. When war breaks out, what

12 would you do? Were you given a military assignment

13 telling you what you should do automatically?

14 A. Yes, but in the case of war.

15 Q. That is my question. Is this your military

16 assignment in the case of war?

17 A. In that case, I am a military policeman.

18 Q. An ordinary policeman?

19 A. No, a military policeman.

20 Q. But in terms of rank, a regular military

21 police officer? Would you have a rank? Would you be

22 in charge?

23 A. No. No.

24 Q. So your speciality number is 11.107, equals

25 policeman, equals soldier, equals military policeman.

Page 2847

1 A. That's what you said. I have no idea what

2 all this means, this "VES," and "policeman," and

3 "soldier."

4 Q. Mr. Mrkalj, how would you know what you

5 should do should such a situation arise?

6 A. You see, I would probably be given an order

7 and then I would know what I should do in such a

8 situation.

9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mrkalj. Yesterday you

10 mentioned that when you arrived in Omarska, that you

11 had known from before your colleagues, policemen, even

12 some who had graduated from the same school as you,

13 including Mr. Kvocka and Mr. Meakic, who, for a time,

14 went to the same school at the same time as you; is

15 that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You also said yesterday that the police

18 service was organised, that there was a police station

19 in Prijedor, and that there were three departments or

20 sections of the police station; one in Kozarac, another

21 in Ljubija, and a third department of the police

22 station was in Omarska.

23 Did you ever work as a policeman in a

24 department of the police station?

25 A. No.

Page 2848

1 Q. My question is: Did you or did you not?

2 A. No, I did not.

3 Q. I know that you were linked to the police

4 station.

5 A. Of course. As a policeman you had to be.

6 Q. So you didn't work in a department, in the

7 police station department ever, anywhere. Do you know

8 how such a department is organised; the number of

9 personnel, the commander, and how the other services

10 are organised?

11 A. I knew most of the people who worked in those

12 departments.

13 Q. I'm not asking you about the people, I'm

14 asking you about the organisation.

15 A. Yes, I was familiar with that organisational

16 structure.

17 Q. On the basis of what?

18 A. When you go to school, then we have practical

19 training, and when you're doing this practical

20 training, you have to go through all the various

21 departments, including police station departments, and

22 you have to know how such a department functions. So

23 that I was familiar with that.

24 Q. Tell me, please, in which of these police

25 organisations was Mr. Kvocka employed, and in which

Page 2849

1 Mr. Meakic?

2 A. You're asking what post they personally

3 held. They were linked to Omarska. And I think Kvocka

4 to Kozarac, but partly also to Prijedor.

5 Q. I'm asking you about 1991 and 1992. Where

6 did these two gentlemen work, Mr. Meakic and

7 Mr. Kvocka, in which police station?

8 A. As far as I can remember, I think I was in

9 Omarska. Omarska.

10 You go on asking, please, sir.

11 Q. Do you know what the status of Mr. Kvocka and

12 Mr. Meakic was in 1991 and 1992?

13 A. I remember that they had been promoted, but

14 exactly to what, I cannot recollect. It was a long

15 time ago.

16 Q. Mr. Mrkalj, yesterday you tried hard to show

17 us your knowledge about the organisation of the police,

18 so please tell us, if you can -- if you cannot, no

19 problem -- what positions exist in a police station

20 department?

21 A. There is the chief of the station --

22 Q. Please give us the official title because,

23 after all, we are jurists here.

24 A. So he would be the commander of the police

25 station department.

Page 2850

1 Q. Then?

2 A. Then he would have a deputy and then,

3 depending on the number of sectors or departments, the

4 structure would go downwards for that area.

5 Q. So to round this question off, there was a

6 commander, a deputy, and departments and sectors that

7 were operating; is that so?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Mr. Mrkalj, how many personnel does a police

10 station department have?

11 A. That depends on the area covered by such a

12 department.

13 Q. I'm asking you about the departments in

14 Omarska, Ljubija, Kozarac. Do you know the number or

15 not? We're talking about departments in a local

16 community.

17 A. I'm telling you what it says in the rules.

18 The number of personnel depends on the needs, and that

19 depends on the territory covered by that department.

20 So it is not specified whether the number should be 10,

21 15, 20, or 30.

22 Q. Mr. Mrkalj, we are talking about Prijedor

23 Police Station departments. As you worked in the

24 Prijedor Police Station, do you know how many people

25 were employed in the police station department in

Page 2851

1 Omarska?

2 A. I don't know the exact number because there

3 were changes.

4 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, talking about this

5 subject, you said that Mr. Kvocka wore a blue

6 camouflage police uniform; is that correct?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. Ms. Hollis, in her examination, showed you a

9 regular police camouflage uniform and you said that

10 Mr. Kvocka wore just such a uniform.

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. Could you repeat the basic colour of this

13 camouflage uniform worn by the police?

14 A. The main colour?

15 Q. You had a photograph in front of you.

16 A. Yes, I did. Pale blue. Blue, with spots so

17 as to make it multicoloured. Dark blue.

18 Q. I see. Dark blue. Yes, that's fine.

19 Mr. Meakic, did he wear a police uniform?

20 A. I suppose he did.

21 Q. Well, did he or didn't he?

22 A. He did.

23 Q. What kind of uniform? Was it the regular

24 uniform or a camouflage uniform?

25 A. He wore, I don't know how we used to call it

Page 2852

1 in those days, a polygon shirt.

2 Q. Is the same kind of shirt as the person shown

3 on the photograph shown to you yesterday?

4 A. Well, you see, he would change shirts. He

5 would wear a blue one and a camouflage one and -- it

6 depended. They didn't attach importance to

7 uniformity.

8 Q. Let us clear that up a little. Does that

9 mean that Mr. Meakic, while in Omarska, wore a regular

10 police uniform and a camouflage police uniform and he

11 switched from one to the other?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What about the other policemen on duty to

14 provide security?

15 A. Well, there were so many uniforms, different

16 types, military, police, even civilian ones. For

17 example, for the worst shift --

18 Q. I'm not asking you that, Witness. I'm asking

19 you about uniforms?

20 A. Well, I'm telling you about uniforms. For

21 example, one individual had sports clothing with the

22 number 3 on it, and then shift number 3, the worst

23 shift, took on this number from that, the sports

24 shirt.

25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I should now

Page 2853

1 like to ask the usher to present the witness Exhibit

2 3/81, which has been tendered as an exhibit. It is a

3 Prosecution exhibit.

4 Q. Before you are shown the document, one more

5 question. What is the difference between a military

6 camouflage uniform and a police one? What's the basic

7 difference?

8 A. Well, depending on the unit you belong to.

9 Q. We're talking about camouflage. Is it green,

10 blue, red, what, the background?

11 A. Well, there were different ones.

12 Q. Let's talk about the infantry uniforms.

13 A. As I say, there were many different ones.

14 I'm telling you -- I'm speaking about them in general.

15 Q. I'm talking about camouflage uniforms. But

16 please have a look at the photograph that you have

17 before you now?

18 A. Yes, that's a classical military one.

19 Q. A classical military camouflage uniform; is

20 that right? We agree?

21 Mr. Mrkalj, can you identify the individuals

22 wearing classical, regular military camouflage uniforms

23 in the picture? Have a look. We have all the time in

24 the world.

25 The man with his arm raised.

Page 2854

1 A. Well, I knew these people very well, but, you

2 know what, I did know them very well but now --

3 Q. You can't remember?

4 A. Well, let me just have a little time. I'll

5 remember.

6 Q. Well, just take it slowly.

7 A. This is Simo Drljaca, the one with his arm

8 up, arm raised.

9 Q. Very well. The second individual standing

10 next to Simo Drljaca?

11 A. I knew that once but I've forgotten. Whether

12 I knew or didn't know, I really --

13 Q. Very well. Let's take the third individual

14 standing behind the man wearing the army cap. Do you

15 know him, the man behind?

16 A. He looks familiar, sir, but I can't

17 remember. Believe me when I say I just can't

18 remember.

19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mrkalj.

20 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I should like

21 to take note of the fact that Mr. Mrkalj has not

22 identified the third individual from the man with the

23 raised arm. Thank you.

24 Q. Let us now move on to another area.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness,

Page 2855

1 let me ask you once again. Are you capable of

2 continuing or not, or would you like us to take a

3 break?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

5 I'll say myself if I'm not able to continue, Your

6 Honour. I don't feel well but let's get the job done.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. If

8 you're not in a state to continue -- the object is not

9 to continue, the object is to be able to continue.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, I

11 thought of that too. But we can continue.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

13 please continue. If possible, ask direct questions.

14 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

15 Mr. President. We do have to go through things because

16 the witness talked about many things that are included

17 in the indictment -- that are not included in the

18 indictment.

19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter

20 apologises. Things that are not included.

21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Yesterday you spoke at great length about

23 rights and duties and the conduct of police officers in

24 prisons, et cetera. I apologise to have to go back.

25 A. It doesn't matter. Just go ahead and ask

Page 2856

1 me.

2 Q. Yes. This is an area that we're interested

3 in, and we seemed to skim over them very quickly. Did

4 you ever work in a prison as a guard?

5 A. No, I did not.

6 Q. You didn't. In the former SFRY, and

7 therefore in Bosnia-Herzegovina itself, were prisons

8 organised as autonomous units, independent units? Was

9 there a warden? Did the prison have a warden?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In those prisons, were the detainees people

12 who were in custody awaiting trial, as well as

13 prisoners performing their sentence, their prison

14 sentence?

15 A. Well, that depended what prison you're

16 talking about.

17 Q. We're talking about the prison principle.

18 A. Sir, that, once again, depends on the type of

19 prison because there are different types of prisons.

20 Q. I am talking about district prisons. For the

21 Prijedor area, where was the district prison?

22 A. You mean in the Prijedor municipality?

23 Q. I'm talking about for the Prijedor

24 municipality. The prison for Prijedor municipality?

25 A. I think it was in Bihac.

Page 2857

1 Q. Thank you. In Bihac. Do you know if the

2 police had any competence and authority in the

3 organisation and supervision of prisons? Was the

4 prison under the president of the district court, his

5 authorisation, or was it under the CSB, the security

6 services chief? Under whose authority? Or perhaps the

7 Ministry of Justice.

8 A. I don't know. I can't tell you.

9 Q. I know you cannot. That is just why I wanted

10 to ask you -- that is precisely why I asked you the

11 question.

12 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, we object to that.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

14 without any comments, please. Please refrain from

15 making comments. Just put your questions, because

16 otherwise you're going to get into a discussion and

17 debate with the witness. You cannot judge the answer

18 of the witness. Just ask simple questions.

19 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

20 Your Honour. I apologise, but we seem to come across

21 this problem time and again, that witnesses, during the

22 cross-examination, this happened on previous occasions,

23 try to avoid answers and try to give us explanations

24 instead of answers, and we are conscious of the

25 problems that arise but we'll try and avoid those

Page 2858

1 problems.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

3 the answer "I do not know" is a valid answer. If the

4 witness said, I do not know, then you cannot oblige him

5 to give you the answer you would like to hear, neither

6 can you judge the response given. So please refrain

7 from that and ask questions, Mr. Simic.

8 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Well, that's

9 what I want to hear. He said I don't know. Thank

10 you. That's the answer I wanted.

11 Q. The police station that you worked in, I'm

12 not speaking about your department but the whole

13 station, what were the superiors, the superior officers

14 of the station?

15 A. You mean the police station of Prijedor? It

16 had the chief of the SUP --

17 Q. Exclude the public security station. I'm

18 speaking about the police station as part of the

19 security system.

20 A. Well, I don't know what you want. But I'm

21 talking about structure, I'm --

22 Q. Mr. Mrkalj, I am asking you the command

23 structure in the police station of Prijedor. That's a

24 simple and clear-cut question.

25 A. And I'm giving you an answer, sir. At the

Page 2859

1 top is the chief, the number one man, the chief.

2 Q. I am talking about a part of the

3 organisation --

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

5 please let the witness answer.

6 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

7 the witness is answering and telling me about a

8 structure that I'm not asking him about. I assume that

9 the witness, as a police officer, knows the structure

10 better than I do because he was there.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

12 you asked him, at least that was the translation I got,

13 what was the organigramme, and the witness answered

14 that there was a commander, and he was about to

15 continue when you interrupted him. So allow the

16 witness to answer, please, if you would.

17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Please go ahead, witness. Mr. Mrkalj, please

19 go ahead.

20 A. What do you want me to tell you now?

21 Q. Who was the number one man of the police

22 station of Prijedor, the Prijedor Police Station?

23 A. The chief. The number one man was the

24 chief.

25 Q. Very well. Thank you.

Page 2860

1 A. The most responsible person.

2 Q. Let's continue.

3 A. What do you want us to continue with?

4 Q. Well, next, did the station have a commander,

5 a leader?

6 A. So you want me to tell you the organisation

7 downwards? Very well. I understand now. We had the

8 chief, as the number one man, and then according to

9 structure, the police station was divided into the

10 following: We had departments, the crime department,

11 the public security department, we had the traffic

12 department, and then a general department for

13 administrative matters.

14 What would you like to know now?

15 Q. Mr. Mrkalj, we don't seem to be establishing

16 communication here, and it is very simple. In the

17 testimonies, previous ones and now, we have been

18 mentioning the SUP and the public security station. Is

19 that the same thing?

20 A. What do you mean SUP?

21 Q. The secretariat of internal affairs, to put

22 it in full.

23 A. I don't know how much -- how far you're

24 acquainted with this. I'm acquainted with this very

25 well.

Page 2861

1 Q. Well, then you should know.

2 A. When I was working, the OSUP didn't exist.

3 Q. The OSUP didn't exist.

4 A. That is to say, the public security has

5 changed. At one point it was called the OSUP, the

6 general secretariat of the interior.

7 Q. Well, then, please tell me when this changed

8 occurred.

9 A. I'm not interested in that.

10 Q. Please tell me when these changes came into

11 effect.

12 A. I cannot remember when the changes took

13 place, but I know that we were then -- we were called

14 the public security station of Prijedor.

15 Q. Was this while you were in Prijedor or while

16 you were in Belgrade?

17 A. I cannot remember. Believe me, it was a long

18 time ago.

19 Q. Very well. Let's go back now. Whether the

20 OSUP and the public security station, are they one and

21 the same thing? According to functioning, did they

22 just change their name, change their heading? Were

23 they actually the same thing?

24 A. Well, yes, I suppose they were.

25 Q. Or were they not?

Page 2862

1 A. Well, just the title, the name changed.

2 Everything else stayed the same.

3 Q. Very well. You don't know when the

4 organisation of the public security stations, as they

5 became called, were introduced.

6 A. I can't remember.

7 Q. Now we're going to use the term "the public

8 security station" to facilitate matters. I can see

9 that you are not feeling well, but please do try and

10 concentrate.

11 The public security station of Prijedor, what

12 did it consist of? What was its composition?

13 A. I've already enumerated.

14 Q. Well, please try again because we seem to

15 have mixed up the SUP and the public security station,

16 so let's do it again, if you would, please.

17 A. The public security station became a general

18 part for traffic safety, for crime. There was another

19 department for state security, which was slightly

20 separate. Then there was this general administrative

21 department.

22 Q. Within the frameworks of that SJB, the public

23 security station, was there a police station, an

24 Omarska police station? And we spoke about that. We

25 discussed it all day yesterday.

Page 2863

1 A. The department --

2 Q. No, I'm talking about the Prijedor police

3 station. Was it within the composition of the SJB, the

4 public security station? I seem to be unclear on

5 this.

6 A. Well, yes, it is within its composition.

7 Q. Very well, then. What was the name of the

8 superior, the number one man, in the police station of

9 Prijedor, which is a component part of the SJB of

10 Prijedor?

11 A. Could you repeat that question, please?

12 Q. What was the name of the number one man of

13 the Prijedor police station within the composition of

14 the SJB station of Prijedor?

15 A. The first man is the chief.

16 Q. Yes. Let's skip over that. We've now come

17 to this particular unit. The station itself.

18 A. The commander of the station or leader. Now,

19 it depends who you're thinking of.

20 Q. I'm thinking of the commander of the Prijedor

21 police station. That's all.

22 A. The commander of the police station, Dule

23 Jankovic, that was his name.

24 Q. Did he have a deputy?

25 A. Yes, he did.

Page 2864

1 Q. Did he have his assistants?

2 A. Yes, he did.

3 Q. Did he -- within the -- that is to say, we're

4 now talking about the police station you worked in

5 yourself. Was there a -- were there shifts, duty

6 shifts?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was there a duty officer? Were you ever the

9 officer on duty, the duty officer?

10 A. What do you mean by "duty officer"?

11 Q. Well, you explain to me. Did you ever

12 perform the function of somebody who was on duty at the

13 police station in Prijedor?

14 A. Well, this term "on duty" or "duty" does not

15 exist. I don't know what it means.

16 Q. Was there no operative duty officer, officer

17 on duty, whatever you like to call it?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Well, you don't know what it means. Thank

20 you, then.

21 A. I do apologise.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness,

23 would you please answer the questions put to you by the

24 attorney.

25 A. I wish to ask you something.

Page 2865

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

2 please continue.

3 Yes, witness, you wanted to say something?

4 Thank you.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot answer

6 a question or a word or function that I don't know

7 about, and that is why I say that this term "duty" or

8 "on duty," I don't understand what is meant by it.

9 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Well, Mr. Mrkalj, we're going to try and

11 simplify matters still further. If the station is open

12 from 7.00 to 2.00 p.m., that's one shift, then there's

13 another shift --

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

15 excuse me, please. The witness said that he doesn't

16 know what it means "duty" or "on duty." Why are you

17 going to explain it to him? You are not the witness,

18 Mr. Simic. Carry on. The witness says he doesn't know

19 what "duty" or "on duty" means, so there's no need to

20 go on explaining. Just move on.

21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Very well,

22 Your Honour.

23 Q. Mr. Mrkalj, I'm now going to talk for a

24 minute about Omarska and ask you a question in that

25 regard for a brief moment.

Page 2866

1 You said yesterday that you had serious

2 injuries inflicted on you by the fact that a pipe was

3 placed in your mouth, your teeth were broken, so on and

4 so forth. Was any assistance given to you in Omarska,

5 medical treatment of any kind?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you ask for treatment? Did you ask

8 anybody for treatment?

9 A. I wasn't in a position to.

10 Q. Thank you very much. When you left

11 Omarska --

12 A. Excuse me. I didn't finish my answer. I

13 wasn't in a position -- I was in a very poor

14 condition. My condition was so poor that they had to

15 carry me, and how could I ask for treatment --

16 Q. Well, yes, but a few days later, perhaps. A

17 few days later, perhaps?

18 A. Sir, I was not allowed to breathe, let alone

19 anything else.

20 Q. When you left Omarska, did you apply for

21 treatment anywhere, in a medical institution of any

22 kind?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Where and when? What institution?

25 A. I received treatment. I had my first

Page 2867

1 surgical intervention in Croatia, in Karlovac, that is

2 to say, when we left. And then in another country I

3 had another surgical -- I underwent surgery for a

4 second time. Then I had treatment, many years of

5 treatment. After that I haven't --

6 Q. I didn't ask you about psychiatric

7 treatment. We'll come to that later on. I shall be

8 happy to come to that later on but I'm asking you the

9 other thing first.

10 Mr. Mrkalj, have you retained any documents

11 about your treatment, concerning your treatment, the

12 treatment you underwent?

13 A. I think I do have the documents, yes, and

14 that I could come by that documentation.

15 Q. Very well. Yesterday you said that when you

16 arrived in Omarska that you knew Mr. Meakic as a

17 colleague, Mr. Kvocka as well, and Mr. Radic, that you

18 knew them as policemen, and that you knew most of the

19 investigators, interrogators as well; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You also said yesterday, according to the

22 transcript and according to my memory, you repeated on

23 two occasions during your testimony yesterday that an

24 individual, a guard, a member of the security detail,

25 said, told you that Mr. Kvocka was the warden. Can you

Page 2868

1 tell us the name of the individual who told you that?

2 A. Yes, I can.

3 Q. What was his name?

4 A. I should now like to address the Presiding

5 Judge.

6 I can give the name but in confidentiality,

7 if confidentiality is guaranteed. But I ask for

8 guarantees for his security.

9 Q. Five years has passed from the war; eight

10 years has gone by since Omarska. You can be quite

11 certain that you have no reason not to state the name

12 of that individual. You are testifying publicly too

13 here today, are you not?

14 A. That is my proposal. I am putting a concrete

15 proposal forward.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam

17 Hollis, do you have any indications with respect to

18 confidentiality, if a name is pronounced?

19 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, the witness has

20 expressed concerns about this person's safety who

21 befriended him in the camp, and we would suggest that

22 confidentiality would be appropriate in that instance,

23 just as it is with victims and witnesses.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

Page 2869

1 do you have any objection to allow confidentiality so

2 that the witness can give the name?

3 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

4 we have no objections; we agree. But I once again

5 state that I do not consider it necessary. But we

6 agree just to save time.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are now

8 going to go into private session to retain -- not to

9 disclose the identity of the person.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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13 page 2874 redacted private session













Page 2875

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 11.20 a.m.

21 [Open session].

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be

23 seated.

24 We're waiting for the witness.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 2876

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The Chamber

2 has been informed by the Victims and Witnesses Unit

3 that the witness had a slight accident yesterday. We

4 thought it was something that happened as a consequence

5 of these unfortunate events. We know that the witness

6 wants to continue but it is the opinion of the Chamber

7 that we should continue tomorrow, not today.

8 Witness, we appreciate your willingness to

9 continue but we feel that you are not in the best

10 condition to testify so we're going to have a break

11 until tomorrow, and you will continue tomorrow. In the

12 meantime you will have a rest, the nurse or the doctor

13 are going to treat you following the accident you had,

14 and tomorrow we will be able to hear you. So we are

15 going to hear you, but tomorrow.

16 What the Chamber is going to do is to have a

17 break in this testimony -- I'm calling it a pause

18 respecting the will of the witness to continue -- and

19 we will resume with the cross-examination by the

20 Defence tomorrow at 9.30. So until tomorrow.

21 Now, Witness, I would like you to leave

22 before the Judges.

23 Mr. Usher, will you escort the witness out,

24 please.

25 [The witness stands down]

Page 2877

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So the

2 hearing is adjourned until tomorrow at 9.30.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

4 11.28 a.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

5 the 9th day of June, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.