1 Wednesday, 12 July 2000

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.37 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated. Good

6 morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning to the technical booth, the

7 interpreters; good morning to the legal officers, the court reporters, the

8 registrar; good morning, Ms. Hollis, Mr. Waidyaratne; good morning,

9 Defence counsel. I think they are all present. Good morning, the

10 accused.

11 I should like us to go into closed session for a moment, please.

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20 [Open session]

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And we can have the witness

22 brought in, please, Mr. Usher, so that we can continue with the

23 testimony.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 WITNESS: NUSRET SIVAC [Resumed]

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Nusret Sivac.

3 Can you hear me?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated. Have you had

6 a good rest?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I wish to remind you that you

9 are continuing to testify under oath, and you will be answering questions

10 put to you by Ms. Hollis.

11 Ms. Hollis, your witness.

12 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Examined by Ms. Hollis: [Continued]

14 Q. Good morning, sir.

15 A. Good morning.

16 Q. Sir, yesterday you testified about an incident in the garage when

17 a person you knew by the nickname Zuti took Muhamed Cehajic from the

18 garage. This nickname Zuti, were any other guards in the camp known by

19 this nickname?

20 A. Yes, they did.

21 Q. And how many other guards were known by this nickname?

22 A. We knew Zeljko Marmat under this nickname, because we called him

23 Zuti as well.

24 Q. And could you describe this Zeljko Marmat for the Court?

25 A. Zeljko Marmat, I think, was one of the worst guards, and as far as

1 I can recollect, he was in Ckalja's shift. He was dressed most

2 frequently, because sometimes they would change their clothing, in a blue

3 police uniform.

4 Q. Thank you, sir. I'd now like to ask you about several incidents,

5 beginning with incidents that occurred while you were on the pista at

6 Omarska. Before being taken to Omarska, did you know a man named Rizo

7 Hadzalic?

8 A. Rizo Hadzalic.

9 Q. And did you know him?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. What was his ethnicity?

12 A. He was a Bosniak Muslim.

13 Q. Do you know what his occupation was?

14 A. He was a worker in a metalworking company called Bosna Montaza.

15 Q. And did you know a man named Kardum before being taken to

16 Omarska?

17 A. I did.

18 Q. While on the pista do you recall an incident involving both Rizo

19 and Kardum?

20 A. Yes, I do remember.

21 Q. And in what month did that incident occur?

22 A. This was sometime in July.

23 Q. And by your estimate, how many detainees were being held on the

24 pista at the time of this incident?

25 A. There were very many. I think around 500, maybe more.

1 Q. Now, on this occasion, before the incident involving Rizo and

2 Kardum, did you see other detainees being abused?

3 A. Yes. That day, all the detainees taken for interrogation would

4 first be taken in front of the entrance outside the stairwell leading

5 upstairs to the interrogation rooms, and there all those who were taken

6 for interrogation were beaten.

7 Q. And would you please tell the Judges what you saw of the incident

8 involving Rizo and Kardum?

9 A. Before they came, we were told that we could get up, because we

10 spent most of our time with our heads bowed and looking at the ground.

11 Somebody said, "They're taking Rizo and Gogi, at the pista," and we all

12 looked, and indeed I think among the detainees that had been called out

13 for interrogation were Rizo Hadzalic and Goran Kardum.

14 Q. Now, when you refer to Gogi, to whom are you referring?

15 A. I'm referring to Goran Kardum.

16 Q. And what did you see then after you had seen that they had been

17 called out?

18 A. They were taken to the entrance near those pillars leading to the

19 administration building itself. We looked, and for a moment they stopped,

20 and they exchanged a few words with the guards. They talked to the

21 guards. Shortly after that, I don't know how long after, we saw the

22 guards who had been standing next to those pillars. I think they were

23 Paspalj and Savic, were yelling very loudly at Rizo and Goran and beating

24 them.

25 We saw guards running from other guard posts to the spot where the

1 incident was taking place. Then we heard a loud order telling us to lie

2 down, which meant we had to face the asphalt face down. Terrible cries

3 and moans were heard. I had the feeling as if somebody was breaking up

4 the asphalt we were lying on.

5 I don't know how long this went on for. Then those cries subsided

6 a little, shouts were heard by the guards, "To the end, to the bitter

7 end. Turks, this is how all of you will fare." We lay there, face down

8 on the ground, and this lasted for some time actually.

9 After a little time, a voice was heard of one of the guards. I

10 didn't see who it was because I was lying face down when he said, "I need

11 two strong guys." He picked two of the detainees over there.

12 Q. Now, sir, you indicated that before you were told to lie face

13 down, you saw guards running from other areas. Did you recognise any of

14 the guards that were running toward this area where Rizo and Kardum were?

15 A. Yes. I recognised Pop and Sole, who were running from this side,

16 from the right-hand side, from the right of the administration building.

17 MS. HOLLIS: And if the witness could please be provided with

18 Exhibit 3/112.

19 Q. Sir, could you please look at that exhibit, and if you could point

20 to the area where Rizo and Kardum were taken?

21 A. It's this spot here. There's this wall left of the pillars.

22 Q. So these are the pillars that hold up this canopy over the entry

23 to the administration building?

24 A. Yes. And they were brought to the left, here against this wall.

25 Q. Now, you said that the two guards, you thought Paspalj and Sole

1 were there. Could you show the Judges where those two guards were?

2 A. They were next to these pillars.

3 Q. And you also indicated that when you saw the other guards running

4 toward this area, that you saw a guard, but with the nickname Pop. Where

5 did you see him coming from?

6 A. He and Sole were here somewhere, and they ran this way to the spot

7 where the incident was taking place.

8 Q. So as you look at the photo, they would have been coming from the

9 corner of the building on the right, moving past the circular staircase.

10 A. Yes. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q.

14 MS. HOLLIS: You can leave that there, but I won't need your

15 assistance for the moment, Mr. Usher.

16 Q. Were you eventually allowed to change from your face-down

17 position?

18 A. Yes, towards the end of the shift.

19 Q. Now, after this occasion, did you yourself ever see Rizo or Kardum

20 again?

21 A. No. I just heard from the detainees, who were in this spot on the

22 pista -- may I show you? -- that these two strong detainees called out by

23 the guard dragged Rizo here to the pista.

24 Q. So you are showing an area of the pista as we look at the

25 photograph close to those two pillars but to the left?

1 A. Yes. Yes, yes.

2 Q. Sir, this day, during this incident with Rizo and before that when

3 you saw these other people beaten, did you see any of the shift commanders

4 or camp leaders present?

5 A. Well, frequently in this glassed-in area, Mladjo Radic, shift

6 leader, would be standing.

7 Q. You're talking about this day with this incident with Rizo and

8 Kardum and the other people beaten; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When you saw him standing in this circular stairway by the window

11 above A21, what would he be doing when you saw him there?

12 A. Probably overseeing the guards, to see how they were treating the

13 detainees that were being brought there and taken for interrogation.

14 Q. On that day, what was he wearing?

15 A. A blue police uniform.

16 Q. What weapons, if any, did he have?

17 A. He always carried his rifle, an automatic rifle.

18 Q. Now, you testified on that day that he was wearing a blue police

19 uniform. What did he normally wear when you saw him in the camp?

20 A. He most frequently wore a blue police uniform and sometimes he

21 would have a beret on his head.

22 Q. In addition to Mladjo Radic, did you see any other camp leaders on

23 this occasion?

24 A. While we were sitting normally, I noticed that here, in this

25 glassed-in area, Drago Prcac appeared a couple of times.

1 Q. Again, sir, you were pointing to the glass area of the stairwell?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, these occasions that you saw Drago Prcac appear on that day,

4 were prisoners being beaten at the times that you saw him at that glass

5 area?

6 A. Usually when these detainees began to be beaten, we were ordered

7 to lie down face down.

8 Q. So at the time you saw him, nobody was being beaten; is that

9 correct?

10 A. Well, I think at that moment they were going for fresh detainees

11 who were being prepared for the interrogation.

12 Q. Now, I'd like to direct your attention to another incident while

13 you were on the pista. Do you recall a day when all detainees were beaten

14 as they went to their meal?

15 A. Yes, I remember it very well.

16 Q. How long did these beatings go on?

17 A. The beating started as soon as the first groups were taken to the

18 meal, and it lasted throughout the meal-taking period, from 9.00 a.m.

19 until 3.00 in the afternoon, approximately.

20 Q. What was done to the detainees on this day?

21 A. All of the groups that went to the meal on that day had to pass a

22 gauntlet, that is, two lines of guards who were standing here in this area

23 and who were beating the detainees on this occasion.

24 Q. Now, this gauntlet, was it outside the building or inside the

25 building or both?

1 A. Some of the guards were standing outside near the pillars, and the

2 other part was standing inside, in the corridor leading to the restaurant

3 area.

4 Q. Now, while these beatings were going on, did you see any of the

5 camp leadership?

6 A. On that day, in this glass area here, during the day, that is,

7 while we were beaten, almost all of them came, the guards, the

8 investigators, together with their assistants, typists, and all other

9 people who were doing administrative work. They were here in this glass

10 area. They would come and go, but there would always be somebody standing

11 there, cynically laughing at what was happening to us downstairs.

12 Q. Sir, again you were pointing to the window area of the circular

13 staircase; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you recall the names of some of the people that would come and

16 watch what was happening and laugh?

17 A. Yes. I recall those merry faces very well of Zeljko Meakic,

18 Dragan Radakovic, Drago Prcac, Slavica Lakic, Nada Markovska, Drago

19 Meakic, Obrad Despotovic, Ilija Bjelic. They all used to be my colleagues

20 at work, and I knew them very well.

21 Q. Sir, the people that you have mentioned, including Obradic --

22 A. Obrad Despotovic. I'm sorry.

23 Q. Bjelic. What did those people do in the camp?

24 A. They were the investigators in the camp.

25 Q. Zeljko Meakic, to your knowledge, what was his position in the

1 camp?

2 A. I think he was the chief commander.

3 Q. On this day did you see any of the shift commanders present at

4 these beatings?

5 A. Yes. Mladjo Radic was the shift leader on that day, Mladjo Radic,

6 Krkan.

7 Q. What was he doing?

8 A. While we were being taken from the pista to the restaurant and as

9 we were being lined up, he was standing at the beginning of the gauntlet.

10 As the group was entering the restaurant, he would announce to the guards

11 who were in the corridor that a new group was coming, a new group of

12 detainees, and that they should get ready for beatings.

13 Q. Now, did you see Mladjo Radic himself beat any prisoners?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. Sir, I believe as you were pointing to the exhibit, you were

16 pointing to the area around those two pillars at the entrance to the

17 administration building. That's where the gauntlet began; is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes, here.

20 MS. HOLLIS: If the witness could please be provided with Exhibit

21 3/77A.

22 Q. Now, sir, you indicated that that gauntlet was also inside the

23 restaurant building. Could you show us where?

24 A. It was in the area marked as A13. Here at the beginning, across

25 from rooms number A15 and A16.

1 Q. Did you yourself have to run the gauntlet that day?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. Did you see Mladjo Radic inside the building in that area you have

4 just pointed to?

5 A. Yes, I did. When my group had finished with the meal, before we

6 came back, we had to line up in the area marked as A22, in this part

7 here. I was at the front, I was ahead, and I was waiting for Mladjo

8 Radic, who was at the beginning of the gauntlet but this time inside, I

9 was waiting for him to give us the sign to move on toward the exit.

10 Meanwhile, in this area which we had to pass through, the guards started

11 putting various kinds of obstacles, pieces of furniture. They spilled

12 some greasy liquid on the floor as well so as to make our exit even more

13 difficult.

14 Q. So they put these objects and this grease in this corridor marked

15 A13?

16 A. Yes, exactly.

17 Q. Then, sir, what happened when you had to exit along that

18 corridor?

19 A. When we reached the gauntlet, Mladjo Radic gave a sign for the

20 beating to begin. I was the first one to pass through the gauntlet, and

21 it is true Mladjo Radic didn't hit me at all, but others did. And the

22 same happened to the detainees who were running behind me. I could hear

23 them moan and scream, and I could hear blows, and all other noises that

24 accompany beatings.

25 Q. Sir, when you got outside, what happened to you outside?

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1 A. When we were here in this area behind the pillar, near the exit, a

2 guard came out whose surname was Savic -- he was wearing a light blue

3 shirt at the time -- and he landed a very heavy blow on me. He used a

4 kind of a whip which had a ball on one of its ends, and he hit me with it

5 on my head.

6 Q. What injuries did you suffer as a result of that?

7 A. At first I thought that half of my head was missing. I couldn't

8 see anything on my right eye, and my friends from the pista told me that I

9 had fallen outside the stairwell and that they had to drag me to the

10 pista.

11 I remember very well when I came to I saw Mustafa Muhic standing

12 above me together with Dr. Esad Sadikovic. I couldn't see anything on my

13 right eye, and my head was swollen.

14 Q. Thank you, sir.

15 MS. HOLLIS: Those exhibit can be removed. Thank you.

16 Q. Did you know a man named Asmir Crnalic before being taken to

17 Omarska camp?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. And how did you know him?

20 A. We were born and we lived for a very long time on the same street

21 in Prijedor, Muharema Suljanovica street.

22 Q. What was his ethnicity?

23 A. He was a Bosniak Muslim.

24 Q. Did he have any nicknames that he was known by?

25 A. Well when, we were children we called him Ico.

1 Q. So his nickname was Ico?

2 A. No, Vico, with a V.

3 Q. And were there any other nicknames by which he was known?

4 A. He had quite a few nicknames later on. Kera was one of them. He

5 was a very nice young man. People liked him.

6 Q. Do you recall an incident involving him while you were on the

7 pista?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. Could you please tell the Court what it is you personally saw or

10 heard during that incident.

11 A. I think it was the hottest day of our stay in the Omarska camp. I

12 remember that even the asphalt was melting because of very high

13 temperatures. We didn't have enough water. We would receive water only

14 from time to time.

15 It was in the afternoon, we were sitting normally, we were not in

16 the face-down position, and at one point one could hear some noise coming

17 from the first row. When we looked that way, we saw -- I saw Asmir

18 Crnalic, Vico, getting up. He was in one of the first rows. And he got

19 up without permission of the guard. He started to act in a strange way.

20 He started to dance, to make some kind of ballet movements, pirouettes.

21 He was in the area between the detainees who were on the pista and the

22 guards who were standing in the entrance to the administration building.

23 He held a kind of bottle in his hand, and he was trying to drink

24 from that bottle.

25 Q. What did you see after that?

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1 A. At the beginning, the guards were just laughing and inciting him,

2 telling him to do some more, and Vico seemed to have accepted the game.

3 But then at one point, one of the guards came and stopped his show, and he

4 took him to the "white house." We could see that quite clearly, because

5 at that moment we were sitting.

6 Q. And what happened after that?

7 A. Ten minutes later, perhaps not even that long, an order could be

8 heard telling us to lie down. So we all lie down in the face-down

9 position, and then we heard a burst of gunfire.

10 Q. In addition to this burst of gunfire, what else, if anything, did

11 you hear?

12 A. We heard shouts, the usual shouts uttered by the guards, "Grab

13 him. Finish him off to the end."

14 Q. And what happened after you heard the gunfire? What did you

15 personally see or hear?

16 A. Nothing. For a while there was silence. This lasted for some

17 time. When we were allowed to get up -- and in the meantime, the shift

18 had changed, and the detainees who were on the left side of the pista told

19 us that Vico had been killed.

20 Q. Now -- I'm sorry, please.

21 A. Asmir.

22 Q. When you were allowed to get up, then what happened after that?

23 A. Ckalja, the shift leader, appeared, and he asked if anyone knew

24 the guy. I said I knew him very well, and I told him his name. Then

25 Ckalja took a piece of paper and wrote down the name, and he took it to

1 the administration building.

2 Q. Now, when you told him the name of this person, how far away from

3 the person were you, from this person you identified as Vico?

4 A. Ckalja, since he had told me to approach him, I changed my

5 position. If I can show it to you on the map. Maybe 20 or 30 metres

6 away. I could recognise Vico who was lying outside the "white house" in a

7 strange position. He had his dirty white T-shirt on and a pair of jeans,

8 but was wearing no shoes.

9 MS. HOLLIS: If the witness could be shown 3/104.

10 Q. Sir, if you look at that, are you able to tell the Court where you

11 were when you spoke with Ckalja and where the body was?

12 A. I was standing here with Ckalja, on the right side of the

13 restaurant, in this part of the pista, and Vico's body was in front of the

14 "white house," to the left, near the path leading to the "white house,"

15 on the grass area in front of it.

16 Q. So as we look at the photo of the "white house," it would be to

17 the left the sidewalk, near the window on the left?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. And where you had pointed to the pista on the photograph would

20 have been an area just to the left of the top corner of the restaurant

21 building pointing toward the "white house"?

22 A. Yes, thereabouts.

23 Q. Thank you, sir. Sir, I'd like to ask you about some incidents in

24 Mujo's room. Did you know a person by the name of Zgog before you were

25 brought to the Omarska camp?

1 A. Yes, I did. Bajram Zgog, who was an Albanian by ethnicity.

2 Q. And was he in Mujo's room with you?

3 A. Yes, he was with us in Mujo's room.

4 Q. Do you recall an incident when he was beaten in that room by

5 guards?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. Could you recognise those guards who beat him?

8 A. Yes, I could. It was rather unusual for the guards Pop and Sole

9 to come to Mujo's room and say that the coach, trainer, should come out.

10 That was the nickname that they had given to him. But he remained silent

11 for a while. But the detainees around him encouraged him to respond.

12 However, he kept saying that he was not a coach, that he was a simple

13 football player.

14 Q. Sir, so the guards actually came into the room; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, they did. They came to the area that I can show you, near

16 the toilets, to the area which is facing the inside of -- the interior

17 part of Mujo's room.

18 Q. Did you know a man by the name of Zijad Mahmuljin before being

19 brought to Omarska?

20 A. Yes, I did. Zijad Mahmuljin is an economist, and he held a number

21 of offices in the Prijedor municipality, and I think that before the war

22 he was one of the managers of the D/P Jela company, wood processing -- it

23 was a wood processing factory in Kozarac.

24 Q. And what was his ethnicity?

25 A. He was a Bosniak Muslim.

1 Q. Did you also known a man by the name of Zlatan Besirevic?

2 A. Zlatan Besirevic was an engineer, and he was the manager of a

3 metal factory.

4 Q. And what was his ethnicity?

5 A. He was a Bosniak Muslim.

6 Q. Did you know a man by the name Nedzad Seric?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. And what was his ethnicity?

9 A. He was a Bosniak Muslim.

10 Q. What was his occupation, if you know?

11 A. He was a lawyer by occupation, and he was the president of the

12 Prijedor court for quite some time.

13 Q. Were these men in Mujo's room with you as well?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What was the condition of these men when you saw them in Mujo's

16 room?

17 A. They were in very bad, very poor condition. They were taken out

18 on a number of occasions and beaten up. So you could see traces of

19 terrible tortures and blows on their faces.

20 Q. Do you recall today any of the shifts on which they were taken out

21 and beaten?

22 A. They were taken out on almost every shift.

23 Q. Do you recall Mahmuljin and Besirevic being taken together from

24 Mujo's room?

25 A. I think they first took Zlatan Besirevic out, and only later on in

1 the evening hours Zijad Mahmuljin was taken as well. I think that the

2 president of the municipality, Muhamed Cehajic, then Meho Kapetanovic,

3 Ziko Crnaljic, a private caterer, Idriz Jakupovic, who was the manager of

4 the social welfare centre, then another lawyer from the municipality were

5 taken out on that same night.

6 Q. And, sir, after all these people were taken out, did you ever see

7 them again?

8 A. No, never.

9 Q. And Nedzad Seric, do you recall his being taken from the room?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And when he was taken out at that time, do you recall if he came

12 back to the room on that occasion?

13 A. As for Nedzad Saric, he was taken out very often, and most of the

14 time he was not able to come back to the room on his own. They would

15 leave him at the entrance and then Burho or Mujo, who were some kind of

16 leaders of our room, would go and help him back into the room.

17 Q. Sir, was there ever an occasion that he was taken from your room

18 and did not return to your room?

19 A. Yes. It was at the end of July, between the 25th and the 30th of

20 July. They kept taking people out all the time, and I think that during

21 that period of time, massive killings were committed. It was during that

22 period of time that most of the people were taken out, most of them

23 intellectuals and other prominent citizens of Prijedor, and they never

24 came back.

25 Q. Did you know a man by the name of Eso Mehmedagic before being

1 taken to Omarksa?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. Did you see this man in Omarska?

4 A. Yes, I did. Yes, I knew Eso Mehmedagic for a long time and I saw

5 him in the Omarska camp. He's a half-blind man.

6 Q. And what was his condition when you saw him in the Omarska camp?

7 A. He was in a very bad condition. As I told you, Eso Mehmedagic had

8 very poor sight, and he lost his glasses in the Omarska camp and he

9 couldn't move around. So he would usually be the last one in the groups

10 running to the restaurant for a meal, and he would -- he would be holding

11 the person in the front.

12 Q. Do you recall when you last saw him in Omarska?

13 A. Yes, I do. I remember that while I was on the pista at one

14 occasion, he went for a meal. Eso Mehmedagic was actually in the hangar,

15 so the only time I could see him was while I was on the pista. When I

16 moved to Mujo's room, I didn't see him after that any more.

17 Q. While you were on the pista, did you personally ever see Eso

18 Mehmedagic being beaten or abused?

19 A. Yes, I did. I saw it on that day when we were all beaten up while

20 going for a meal.

21 Q. Sir, were you taken from Omarska to Trnopolje on the 6th of

22 August?

23 A. Yes, I was. On the 6th of August in a group of 700 detainees, I

24 was taken to Trnopolje.

25 Q. When you were taken to Omarska on the 20th of June or about the

1 23rd of June, excuse me, how would you describe your condition at that

2 time?

3 A. What do you mean my condition? I'm not quite sure I understand.

4 You mean the difference between my condition when I arrived in Omarska and

5 my condition when I left Omarska? You probably mean that.

6 Q. That would be helpful. Please tell the Judges that difference.

7 A. Well, when I entered Omarska, I was more or less completely

8 healthy, well-fed person, and when I left Omarska I weighed 34 kilograms

9 less than I did originally. I was in bad shape, and I could not see very

10 well on my right eye.

11 Q. How long were you held in Trnopolje?

12 A. Sometime until the end of August.

13 Q. And where did you go from there?

14 A. I went to Prijedor.

15 Q. How long did you stay in Prijedor?

16 A. I stayed in Prijedor until the 16th of December, 1992, when I

17 managed to leave for Croatia.

18 Q. What were the conditions like for you in Prijedor when you went

19 back to Prijedor?

20 A. For us Bosniak Muslims and Croats, conditions were awful. The

21 town was full of gangs out of control, Zoran Zigic, Dosen -- and they

22 simply engaged in a headhunt.

23 Q. Sir, why did you decide to leave Prijedor?

24 A. For all Bosniak Muslims, Croats, and the other non-Serbs, there

25 was no life to lead in Prijedor any more.

1 Q. What did you have to do in order to be allowed to leave?

2 A. First of all, I had to make a gift of all my property, movable and

3 immovable to the Serb authorities, and to make all kinds of certificates,

4 I had to give up all my savings which I had collected on the basis of my

5 work, 30-year long career.

6 Q. Could you describe for the Court the physical, emotional, and

7 psychological impact on you of the abuse that you suffered in Omarska and

8 the conditions there.

9 A. Your Honours, after everything I lived through during the days I

10 spent in those camps, it is not simple for me to tell you about it and I

11 get very emotional because this was inflicted upon us by people I used to

12 work with, and that is why my emotions gain control over me.

13 Unfortunately, in those death camps, almost all Croats and Muslims

14 who used to work with me in the security service were killed. The number

15 of us that remain can be counted on the fingers of one hand.

16 I think, Your Honours, all those who committed crimes will be

17 brought to justice by this Tribunal and punished adequately. And I wish

18 to draw your attention to the fact that one of those -- among those who

19 are to blame are the men who are sitting here, but of course, you will

20 judge that.

21 Q. Sir, the property --

22 A. I'm sorry.

23 Q. Sir, if I could --

24 A. May I just add one sentence.

25 Q. If I could talk to you about the property that you had in 1992.

1 Did you ever receive that property back?

2 A. Never. As far as I know, my weekend home and orchard, they have

3 been destroyed. As for the apartment, it's probably inhabited by a Serb.

4 Q. And, sir, have you ever been paid for that property?

5 A. No, never.

6 Q. You have testified about Kvocka, Prcac, Radic, and Kos. Sir, I

7 would ask you to look around the courtroom and tell the Judges if you

8 recognise the person Kvocka in the courtroom.

9 A. Yes. My former neighbour. He's sitting in the middle with

10 headphones. Yes, they all have headphones. He has a dark jacket and a

11 tie.

12 Q. And, sir, as you're looking toward that area, in what row is he

13 seated?

14 A. The top row, just below the glass.

15 Q. And, sir, would you tell the Court if you recognise the man you

16 knew as Radic, in the courtroom?

17 A. Yes. My former colleague, Mladjo Radic, Krkan, he is to the left

18 of Kvocka as I am looking at them and to the right of Kvocka wearing a

19 purple jacket and a tie.

20 Q. And who is to the right of Mr. Kvocka as you view them?

21 A. As I am looking at them, an acquaintance of mine from the Omarska

22 camp, Milojica Kos, known as Krle.

23 Q. And would you look around courtroom and tell Their Honours if you

24 see the person you knew as Prcac?

25 A. Yes, he's here, right next to the policeman. He's writing

1 something. In a brown jacket and tie, wearing glasses, and a moustache.

2 In the Omarska camp, Prcac did not have a moustache.

3 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honours, I would note positive identifications,

4 and I have no further questions.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Ms. Hollis.

6 I think perhaps before we begin with the cross-examination we

7 should have a break, and I should like to ask the usher to see the witness

8 out. We're going to have a break.

9 [The witness stands down]

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So a half-hour break now.

11 --- Recess taken at 10.40 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 11.15 a.m.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic, what will be

16 the order of the cross-examination, please?

17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The order

18 will be slightly changed. I will be cross-examining at the end. The rest

19 will be according to the order in the indictment.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

21 Witness, you're now going to answer questions which Defence

22 counsel have for you, and they will also introduce themselves. I see

23 Mr. O'Sullivan.

24 Your witness.

25 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Thank you.

1 Cross-examined by Mr. O'Sullivan:

2 Q. Sir, my name is Eugene O'Sullivan, and I'm a lawyer from Canada.

3 You testified about the shooting of your friend, Mr. Asmir Crnalic, as

4 Vico and Kera. Do you recall that?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. And you knew him to be a mental patient, didn't you?

7 A. I did.

8 Q. And on the pista when he stood up and asked for water, he was

9 nervous and agitated; is that correct?

10 A. I didn't hear him ask for water. I just saw him get up and start

11 jumping around.

12 Q. Was he given -- he was given a bottle of water by a prisoner,

13 wasn't he?

14 A. I don't know what was in the bottle, but I saw that he was

15 drinking from a bottle.

16 Q. And at one point he began spitting water towards a guard?

17 A. That is not true.

18 Q. He was taken to the "white house."

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. At one point you saw Mr. Crnalic jump from the window of the

21 "white house."

22 A. I didn't see that, nor did I say that.

23 Q. And then you say he was shot dead by a burst of gunfire from an

24 automatic rifle.

25 A. Yes, while we were lying down, we were ordered to lie face down.

1 At that moment we heard a burst of gunfire.

2 Q. And you told Ckalja the name of the man who was shot?

3 A. Yes. After some time, when we were allowed to get up and when we

4 were lining up to go to sleep in the restaurant.

5 Q. And Ckalja is the person known as Momo Gruban; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And Momo Gruban wrote your name down when you gave him the name of

8 Crnalic?

9 A. No. He just wrote down the name of Asmir Crnalic.

10 Q. And when this shooting occurred, Momo Gruban's guard shift was on

11 duty, wasn't it?

12 A. No. It was Krle's shift that was on duty then, Kos.

13 Q. Of the guards present, the one who fired the shots wore a hood and

14 always manned a guard post between the "white house" and the pista; isn't

15 that correct?

16 A. Yes. I learned that later from the women detainees among whom was

17 my sister, and they were sitting in the restaurant and watching all this.

18 Q. With the assistance of the usher, could I ask that these documents

19 be placed in front of the witness, and could you show them to the

20 Prosecutor first.

21 Now, sir, you have two documents in front of you. Do you see

22 that?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. One document is in English and one is a translation of the English

25 document into Bosnian. Do you see that?

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. They're both there because we work in three languages here,

3 English, French, and your language. So we must work our way through

4 this. All right?

5 A. Yes, I know that.

6 Q. Can you look at the front page of the Bosnian version, and there

7 you see that that is the statement -- a witness statement made to the

8 Tribunal in 1994, and your name appears on the front. Do you see that?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Now, if you look at the English version, at the bottom right-hand

11 corner of the English version you see your signature, don't you?

12 A. Yes, I do see my signature.

13 Q. And keeping with the English version, if you flip through the

14 English version, at the bottom right-hand corner of every page is your

15 signature. Do you see that?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. On all 36 pages you signed the bottom right corner; correct?

18 A. Yes, probably.

19 Q. I'm sorry? Just take a moment. Do you see that you signed every

20 page of that statement in the bottom right-hand corner?

21 A. Yes, I can see that.

22 Q. And before signing this statement, it was read back to you in

23 Bosnian by the interpreter who was present during the interview; isn't

24 that correct?

25 A. Yes. She was present.

1 Q. And she read it back to you in your language before you signed

2 it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. If you turn to the last page of the English version you'll see

5 your signature and the date of the 16th of October, 1994; correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. The front page of this statement indicates that you were

8 interviewed from the 12th to the 16th of November, 1994. Does that seem

9 correct to you? That's when this took place?

10 A. I don't remember exactly, but it is probably correct.

11 Q. Does that mean that you met every day for five days with the

12 investigators? Between the 12th and the 16th, did you meet every day? Do

13 you recall meeting every day over those five days?

14 A. Yes, I think so.

15 Q. Can you give us a rough idea of how many hours per day you met?

16 Was it a full working day with normal breaks? Is that your recollection?

17 A. Roughly so. They worked at a very intensified pace, as far as I

18 can remember. They even stayed until late into the night.

19 Q. And you were interviewed by two people, based on what the cover

20 page says. Is that how you remember it?

21 A. Yes, I do, more or less.

22 Q. And you gave this statement voluntarily; is that right?

23 A. Yes, voluntarily. What I knew at the time I told them about and

24 what I could remember.

25 Q. And no pressure was put on you to make a statement, was it?

1 A. No, none.

2 Q. And you spoke freely when you gave your answers and explanations?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you gave this statement approximately two years after the

5 events of 1992; right?

6 A. Two years after?

7 Q. In 1994, two years after the events of Omarska, approximately two

8 years after.

9 A. Approximately two years.

10 Q. And these events were fresher in your mind then than they are

11 today?

12 A. Yes, much fresher.

13 Q. And you gave your best account and recollection of events, people,

14 and places?

15 A. Yes, roughly so.

16 Q. And you told the truth?

17 A. Everything I saw I told them about.

18 Q. And you told the truth?

19 A. Yes, the truth and only the truth, as one says.

20 Q. Can I ask you it take the Bosnian version and turn to page 21.

21 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Those following in English, it's page 31.

22 Q. Have you found page 21?

23 A. Yes, I have.

24 Q. I want to direct your attention to the top of the page, the first

25 line. I'm going to read it to you. Please listen. "My friend Asmir

1 Crnalic was lying on the pista. He was a mental patient. He needed some

2 water so stood and demanded water. A couple of guards approached. Asmir

3 was having a nervous attack and he was agitated. A prisoner gave him a

4 small bottle of water, and he began spitting it towards the guards. They

5 took him to the "white house." The "white house" had short walls with a

6 large glass area so we could see clearly. Then we heard shouts and

7 shooting. Vico, Asmir Crnalic, was trying to jump from the window. He

8 did. He had lost control. He did jump down, and the guards shot him

9 dead. The guard said he was shot trying to escape. Later, Momo joined

10 his men. We were ordered to sit instead of lie down, and we were asked

11 who knew Vico. I said I did, and Momo wrote my name and went back to his

12 building. Weapon used was a Kragujevka auto-rifle fired in a burst. Of

13 the guards present, the one who fired wore a hood and always manned a

14 guard post between the "white house" and the pista."

15 Let me direct your attention to one other passage on page 20 of

16 the Bosnian version, sir. The previous page, at the bottom. I'm still on

17 page 31 in English. I'll read it to you. In regards to this episode you

18 said: "A couple of days later, another incident occurred on the pista.

19 The shift leader was again Momo Gruban."

20 Sir, were you telling the truth when you said this to

21 investigators in 1994?

22 A. Let me tell you, I never believed that I would be in the position

23 of a witness in this way. I wanted to describe the situation we found

24 ourselves in in the most graphic way, so it is quite possible that I made

25 certain minor mistakes when it comes to details because a lot of time had

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12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

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15

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1 elapsed in the meantime. However, as regards the very essence of it, I

2 think that what I said on that occasion and what I'm telling today is

3 almost the same.

4 Q. Sir, you knew that this statement was being taken and may be used

5 for legal proceedings in this Tribunal, didn't you?

6 A. Yes. That is what was explained to us at that time. It was

7 indeed explained to us that the statement would be used.

8 Q. Sir, could I direct your attention to the 20th of June, 1992.

9 That was the time of your second arrest. You were arrested approximately

10 on the 20th of June for the second time, I believe. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes, approximately. I don't remember it exactly.

12 Q. You were arrested on that day at about 11.00 in the morning by

13 Bato Kovacevic; right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you and the other people you named yesterday ended up at the

16 Prijedor police station.

17 A. Yes, we did.

18 Q. And at the police station, you and the people you named were

19 beaten and bloodied; right?

20 A. Yes. They beat us savagely.

21 Q. And from the police station you were taken to Omarska.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When you arrived at Omarska, you told us you lined up behind the

24 restaurant.

25 A. Yes, alongside the glass wall on this side of the restaurant,

1 looking towards the "white house."

2 Q. Kos was present when you arrived?

3 A. Yes, he was present.

4 Q. You were not beaten on this occasion when you arrived in Omarska,

5 were you?

6 A. We received only a couple of blows, and then someone said -- our

7 faces were turned to the window. Someone said that it was enough, that we

8 received enough blows for today.

9 Q. I direct are attention to page 17 of your Bosnian version of your

10 statement. Page 17 of the Bosnian, page 25 of the English. Have you

11 found page 17, sir?

12 A. Yes, I have.

13 Q. In the middle of the page the following words appear: "20th of

14 June I was rearrested. Around 11.00, Bato Kovacevic came to my home and

15 told me to follow him."

16 Now, on that same page, 17, the last paragraph, page 26 in

17 English, the second paragraph, it states: "We arrived at Omarska, and we

18 were lined up behind the restaurant. Again I could see people laying on

19 the pista. We stood against the wall. The same shift leader as before

20 said I was back and this time no mistake. This time we were not beaten,

21 as we were covered in blood."

22 Sir, you were telling the truth when you said this in 1994,

23 weren't you?

24 A. Well, yes. Compared to the beatings we sustained later on, this

25 was still quite good.

1 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to June the 10th, the day of

2 your first arrest. When you arrived in Omarska on June the 10th by van,

3 who was in the van with you?

4 A. In the van together with me, sitting at the back side, was Omer

5 Kerenovic, Safet Ramadanovic, Ivica Muntijan, and myself.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. O'Sullivan, I'm sorry to

7 interrupt you, but do you really need the witness to repeat what he has

8 already said? He said that Safet Ramadanovic was with him in the van

9 together with some other people. Do you really need to hear all that over

10 again?

11 MR. O'SULLIVAN: In his direct examination, he did not mention who

12 was with him on the 10th.

13 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, I believe he did indicate who was with

14 him on the 10th of June.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I have my notes here. He

16 has indeed mentioned the individuals who were with him. Please try to

17 streamline your questions, Mr. O'Sullivan.

18 MR. O'SULLIVAN:

19 Q. So there were three of you in the van that day?

20 A. Three people were there with me. I was the fourth one.

21 Q. But when you left Omarska that day on June the 10th, you went

22 home?

23 A. We first went to the police station in Prijedor, and I had to wait

24 for a while for them to check what to do with me.

25 Q. And then you went home?

1 A. Yes. I went in the direction of the centre. I think I went home,

2 yes.

3 Q. And you visited your sister Nusreta that day?

4 A. I don't remember at this point but this is possible.

5 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No further questions, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

7 Mr. O'Sullivan.

8 Mr. Fila, you have the floor.

9 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Fila:

11 Q. Mr. Sivac, my name is Toma Fila. I'm an attorney-at-law from

12 Belgrade. Together with my colleague Mr. Jovanovic, I'm representing

13 Mladjo Radic in this case.

14 Could you please describe for us the SDS flag that you saw in the

15 Omarska camp?

16 A. I have described it already. You have probably received the

17 description. I think it's the SDS flag. It has a cross with two letters

18 "S" written in Cyrillic.

19 Q. So it's a Serbian flag, is it not?

20 A. Yes. I believe I have already said that.

21 Q. Yes. Because I have never heard of an SDS flag.

22 A. It's a Serbian flag.

23 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour.

24 Q. Do you know when exactly the shifts would be rotated?

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.

1 MS. HOLLIS: I apologise for interrupting, Your Honour, but

2 counsel is, in effect, testifying on the record. We would ask that he

3 restrict himself to questions. When he's saying that he's never heard of

4 an SDS flag, that in fact it's a Serbian flag, what's really happening is

5 that counsel is attempting to put evidence on the record. We would object

6 to that.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.

8 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. Please proceed.

10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Do you know what time of day it was when the shifts would be

12 rotated and how was it organised?

13 A. They would be rotated every 12 hours, at 7.00 a.m. and at

14 7.00 p.m. again.

15 Q. How was it organised?

16 A. Well, we were not familiar with the procedure itself. However, at

17 the end of our stay in the camp, when we were allowed outside Mujo's room

18 and when we could move relatively freely near the water taps, we could see

19 that near the flag, on an asphalt area, guards would be lined up, the

20 guards who were supposed to take over the duty. First the guards who were

21 take over the duty would come there, and then from the guard posts, the

22 guards leaving duty would come to the same spot. However, it is very

23 important to say that many of the guards in the camp would come not only

24 by buses but also by their own private tractors, for example.

25 Q. I simply wanted to know the procedure, so that would be enough.

1 Thank you, Witness.

2 The people who were in charge of interrogations on the first floor

3 of the administration building and whose names you have mentioned as names

4 of the people who used to be your colleagues were actually interrogators?

5 A. Some of them were professionals, that is, workers who used to work

6 at the public security service, people who were with the police, but there

7 were also certain individuals who were from other branches. There was a

8 professor there whose name was Miroslav Zoric.

9 Q. Were you able to conclude or do you perhaps know the hierarchy?

10 Who was superior to whom?

11 A. You're referring to the investigators, to the interrogators?

12 Q. Yes. I want to know whether the interrogators were superior to

13 Mladjo Radic or the other way around.

14 A. The interrogators were doing their job. All the information they

15 gathered would be then provided to Ranko Mijic, who was their chief, and

16 he would probably leave the appropriate instructions to the shift leaders

17 so that they could do their job during the night.

18 Q. My question to you, Witness, was very simple. Who was able to

19 issue orders to whom? Was Ranko Mijic issuing records to Mladjo Radic or

20 the other way around?

21 A. The interrogators themselves were able to order things to the

22 guards, and especially, in particular, Ranko Mijic, who was their chief.

23 Q. We can, therefore, conclude that they were superior to Mladjo

24 Radic, that they could issue orders to him?

25 A. Yes, that is correct, Mr. Fila, but there is one thing you should

1 know, if I may, that the shift leaders and many of the guards did things

2 on their own.

3 Q. You said that people would be called out and then taken away or

4 would go by themselves to see the interrogators on the upper floor.

5 A. No. They never went on their own. A guard would always come to

6 pick them up.

7 Q. Yes. I was going to discuss the procedure. How did it go?

8 A. Usually where a guard would come, he would come to the room where

9 the person who was supposed to be interrogated was, he would ask whether

10 the individual in question was there, and very often the people who were

11 supposed to be taken out were not in that room but happened to find

12 themselves in some other room.

13 Q. Yes. And then the guard would take him where exactly?

14 A. Yes, the guard would take him away. However, there were people

15 who were especially in charge of bringing people for interrogation, and

16 the guard would take the individual in question through the stairwell to

17 the offices upstairs.

18 And at the beginning of the corridor there was a small desk, and

19 Rade Knezevic who was a retired investigator would sit at that desk. He

20 had a very big book, and he would record the names of the detainees who

21 were supposed to be interrogated in that room, and he was the one who

22 would indicate the room where they were supposed to be interrogated.

23 Q. So the role of the guard would finish at that point, when the

24 individual was brought to Ranko Knezevic?

25 A. No. He would enter the room where the individual in question was

1 supposed to be interrogated, and then, upon request of one of the

2 interrogators, he would actually enter the room. Sometimes he would bring

3 even more guards and they would all be present at the interrogation of the

4 detainee.

5 Q. So once the interrogation was over?

6 A. Well, if the detainee was still able to walk, then together with

7 the people who had brought him there, he would leave the room and go back

8 to the area indicated. However, if he was unable to walk alone, then two

9 people from the pista would be called to pick him up.

10 Q. Can we, therefore, conclude that whatever happened to the

11 individual in question would happen in the room during the interrogation?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You spoke about an incident involving a person by the name of

14 Smail, who was thrown into a truck tyre. You said that the incident took

15 place in the afternoon hours. You spoke about that during your

16 examination-in-chief.

17 A. Smail Duratovic you mean.

18 Q. Yes. Could you tell us the time of the day when the tyre was on

19 fire? Could you tell us approximately what time it was and what shift was

20 on duty?

21 A. I don't know exactly what the time of day was. All I know was

22 that it took place in the afternoon hours and that Smail Duratovic was

23 recognised while he was going for lunch. He was taken by one of the

24 guards, but I cannot tell you the details because I was not looking while

25 he was being thrown into the tyre, but this took place before his return

1 to Mujo's room. That is when we learnt about it.

2 Q. Was it during the lunchtime?

3 A. No, it was during the afternoon hours. And Smail Duratovic, I

4 think, spent one night in the "white house."

5 Q. You wouldn't know the shift that was on duty at the time?

6 A. No. No, I don't know.

7 Q. What kind of weapons did the guards have?

8 A. Well, right at this start, I have to say that I'm by no means an

9 expert in weapons. I don't like those toys. But they had various kinds

10 of weapons, as far as I could observe.

11 Q. You said that Mladjo Radic had an automatic rifle.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did other guards have the same rifle?

14 A. Yes, most of them did.

15 Q. Let us now move to the incident that took place in the restaurant,

16 when this greasy liquid was spilled on the floor. Was that liquid thrown

17 on the floor while you were there or had it been thrown before your

18 arrival?

19 A. Well, the liquid had been spilled before our arrival. However,

20 due to numerous passages of various groups, the whole floor was covered in

21 that liquid, and they would have to renew the process with each passing

22 group.

23 Q. Did you see that?

24 A. Yes, I did. This is what they put at the very entrance. They put

25 some pieces of furniture there, parts of tables, chairs, and similar.

1 Q. How much time did you have to enter the room, to eat, and to leave

2 the room? Did you enter the room running?

3 A. Yes. Yes, we did. We had to run very fast, and our lunches --

4 that was the shortest lunch we ever had. We didn't even have enough time

5 to eat, we just took a piece of bread. We didn't even have time to take

6 the plates. And then we went back.

7 Q. And you were at the front part of your group of people?

8 A. Yes. I remember very well that Marijan Zec, an economist from

9 Prijedor, was behind me.

10 Q. And you had to run back to the exit?

11 A. Yes, that is correct.

12 Q. And how long were you able to observe Mladjo Radic while you were

13 running?

14 A. Well, I had enough time because we had been lined up against the

15 glass wall. So I had to look inside waiting for the sign so that we can

16 start getting out, because we couldn't get out on our own.

17 Q. And as you were getting out, you had to run?

18 A. Yes, that is correct. We had to run up to the obstacles that had

19 been set up in front of us, and that is when the trouble began.

20 Q. But you said that he did not hit you. You simply passed him by.

21 A. Yes, that is correct.

22 Q. What else could you see?

23 A. I could hear moans, screams. I could hear people falling down,

24 people being kicked away.

25 Q. Could you tell me what you saw?

1 A. What I saw?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. I could see the guards who were ready, waiting for us in that

4 area. They were waiting for us with their clubs, baseball bats.

5 Q. But Mladjo Radic was not with them?

6 A. No. He was at the beginning.

7 Q. Yes. And then this terrible incident happened to you.

8 A. Yes, that is correct.

9 Q. Thank you. During that incident, you were on the pista or in

10 Mujo's room? I mean, during the night.

11 A. Well, we were on the pista, but during the night we would enter

12 the restaurant area.

13 Q. I have only one other question for you, Witness. You stated that

14 you knew Mladjo Radic before this quite regrettable events.

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Where exactly did you work together? You were a member of a

17 public security service and he was a member of the police.

18 A. No, I was not a member of the public security service. It is a

19 very complex organisation but it's surprising that you are not familiar

20 with it. I was not a member of the police. My service, the communication

21 service, through various organisational changes, changed authority. We

22 were part of the public security service for a while and then we would

23 shift. You know, exactly what happened to Rankovic in the former

24 Yugoslavia.

25 The communications service and the cryptoprotection service, at

1 one point, were made part of the public security service. Which means,

2 that they were only in charge to provide services to the public security

3 service. However, all the powers were handed over to us and all the

4 duties and assignments were handed over to us by the public security

5 service.

6 Q. Yes. But I wanted to know where exactly it was when you worked

7 with Mladjo Radic?

8 A. Well, I was an employee of that service, my main duty was to

9 receive various written memoranda or messages which we then transmitted to

10 various public security stations throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina and the

11 former Yugoslavia. Mladjo Radic was an employee of a public security

12 station, and very often he would bring a number these memoranda or

13 messages which we then had to transmit elsewhere. So this is what we did

14 while he was in the Ljubija police station and in the Kozarac public

15 station, and also while he was in Omarska.

16 Q. When was it? In what year was that?

17 A. I don't know exactly. I think that Mladjo Radic went through all

18 of the police stations in the area of Prijedor, but I couldn't tell you

19 the exact date or time. I know that he would come to me, to my technical

20 service, very often while he was working in Omarksa. So during that

21 period of time, he would come is to see me very often.

22 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] That concludes my cross-examination of

23 the witness, Your Honour. Thank you very much.

24 Q. Thank you Witness.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Fila.

1 Mr. Tosic, your witness.

2 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, our team will not

3 cross-examine this witness. Thank you.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Tosic.

5 Mr. Jovan Simic is next. Your witness.

6 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Cross-examined by Mr. J. Simic:

8 Q. My name is Jovan Simic, I'm an attorney from Belgrade and together

9 with my colleague Mr. Masic. We represented Mr. Prcac.

10 Did you know Mr. Prcac privately?

11 A. No, only from work. I mean, we didn't socialise.

12 Q. Did -- was Mr. Prcac working in the Prijedor police station and

13 what kind of work did he do?

14 A. Before me, he came, I don't know how long before me. As far as I

15 know, he came from Istria. I think he worked in Labin or Porec or

16 somewhere as an ordinarily policeman. But when he came to the Prijedor

17 SUP, he attended a course for crime technicians, I think somewhere in

18 Sarajevo. He completed that course, and then he worked in the service

19 department as a crime technician.

20 Q. Were you engaged in similar or identical activities?

21 A. Well, you see, our activities had very little in common, one could

22 say.

23 Q. Could you explain then where you were engaged together?

24 A. Frequently, upon returning from an inquest after a traffic

25 accident or criminal offences that had been carried out, that Dragoljub

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1 Prcac had to go and be present at, he had to submit a report about it with

2 an official report addressed to his superior. And on the basis of that

3 official report, he had to type out a telegram, a cable, and all this

4 depended on the kind of offence or crime that had been committed. And

5 depending on that, a different person had to be reported to.

6 We, or rather, my security service, had to report to the centre of

7 the security service in Banja Luka or the republican SUP in Sarajevo about

8 all serious offences. He would bring those cables to me and we would

9 forward them on.

10 Q. Were those cables brought to you by Drago or his superior?

11 A. Drago Prcac would bring them very frequently.

12 Q. Do you know what Drago's responsibilities were prior to the

13 outbreak of the war?

14 A. I think that Drago Prcac retired.

15 Q. Do you know when?

16 A. I don't know exactly. I think it was in the 1980s, but let me try

17 and pinpoint it. I think it was in 1986, 1987, 1988. I may be wrong. I

18 know that he was replaced.

19 Q. So Prcac was retired?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Was he a member of the party?

22 A. Yes. We were both members of the party, if that is of any

23 interest to you.

24 Q. Very well. Tell me, please, when the feature on Omarksa was

25 filmed.

1 A. It is interesting to note that my former colleagues who used to

2 work for the Serb television came very frequently, and after the

3 conflict --

4 Q. No, I'm just asking you a simple question. When was that feature

5 filmed?

6 A. Slavko Djukanovic and Dragoljub Prcac --

7 Q. I'm not asking you that. You said, and let me remind you, you

8 said that Drago Prcac came to you and asked you to film a story about

9 Omarska. That's what I'm asking you about.

10 A. Thank you. Just be more precise in your questions. This was

11 sometime after Drago had retired. So this must have been in 1986 or 1987,

12 after Drago retired. In a conversation, he said that the people in

13 Omarska have a very good football club and that we could make a feature

14 about them. And as far as I can remember, as far as I can recollect and

15 collect my thoughts to that period, the story was about the water supply

16 problems that Omarska was having, which were very serious at the time.

17 Q. And the second feature?

18 A. I told you, one was about the local football club and the other

19 one was about the problems with the water supply for the inhabitants of

20 Omarska. He suggested that we go there, and we did. We made these two

21 stories about the life of the inhabitants of Omarska. Drago Prcac was not

22 present when we were filming.

23 Q. Who was present?

24 A. I was; my assistant, Burho Kapetanovic, who was killed in the

25 Omarska camp; and Boro Grubic, a journalist, a reporter.

1 Q. So you made two features, one about the football club. Did you

2 interview anyone?

3 A. As far as I can remember, we did.

4 Q. Do you remember who?

5 A. When making the sports feature, as far as I can remember, we had

6 an interview with the coach.

7 Q. Will you please answer the questions I'm asking? Who did you

8 interview?

9 A. I think that we interviewed the coach of the Omarksa football

10 club. I think his name was Tatic.

11 Q. Anyone else?

12 A. I don't remember, believe me.

13 Q. When you filmed the other feature about the water supply problems,

14 who did you interview?

15 A. I don't know. I think it was the secretary of the neighbourhood

16 community and his name was Zrnic.

17 Q. Who were you working for at the time, which television?

18 A. At the time it was called Television Sarajevo. Today it is called

19 the Television of Bosnia-Herzegovina, sir.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Jovan Simic, it is true that

21 the witness mentioned these features in the examination-in-chief, but I

22 think these events took place in 1986/1987. They are quite outside the

23 indictment. Do you really need to pursue the matter? They're absolutely

24 outside the indictment in terms of time.

25 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is true, these

1 are events outside the relevant period, but these are events that the

2 witness claims took place, and my client and myself think that it never

3 took place. So we're claim that this feature was never filmed, never

4 made. It may have been made but not at the request of Mr. Prcac.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Are you trying to call in

6 question the credibility of the witness? Is that it?

7 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Then proceed.

9 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Where was this feature shown, broadcast? Was it at all

11 broadcast?

12 A. Yes, on Sarajevo television.

13 Q. When?

14 A. Immediately after it was filmed.

15 Q. Did you tell the football club or the other people to watch that

16 story on television?

17 A. No. My principle -- no, I did not.

18 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether Mr. Prcac was a member of the SDS?

19 A. I don't know that.

20 Q. You said something else, so could you explain why you said that.

21 On what ground did you come to the conclusion that everybody respected

22 Mr. Prcac? Or let me put it differently. Was he a party official?

23 A. I said I didn't know.

24 Q. Was he a wealthy man?

25 A. I think not.

1 Q. Did he have a car, perhaps?

2 A. Yes. He had an old Golf, as far as I can remember.

3 Q. Was it registered in his name? Did he drive it?

4 A. Sometimes, perhaps. I don't know.

5 Q. Did he have a car or not?

6 A. As far as I can remember, he had an old Golf.

7 Q. Well, why did you come to the conclusion that he was respected?

8 A. It is the tradition in our part of the world the people for -- the

9 people working in the police to be respected. The greatest respect is

10 given to the priest, and then the policeman, also a forester, a postman,

11 all people working in state services.

12 Q. Tell me, who is Slavisa Djukanovic?

13 A. Slavisa is an acquaintance of many years. Until 1992, he worked

14 as a photographer in the work organisation called Bosna Montaza. When the

15 aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina occurred and the events in Prijedor,

16 he put on a uniform and worked for the Serb television.

17 Q. What is he by ethnicity?

18 A. A Serb.

19 Q. Do you know where he is now?

20 A. I don't.

21 Q. Did you see Slavisa Djukanovic and Mr. Prcac together in Omarksa,

22 and when?

23 A. At the end of July.

24 Q. Did you ever before see them together or was that the first time?

25 A. That was the first time I saw them. I didn't see them together

1 before.

2 Q. Will you tell me, please, after your arrest, did you see Drago

3 Prcac in the camp immediately?

4 A. Which arrest, the first or second?

5 Q. The second.

6 A. The second? No, I didn't see him immediately because I spent

7 seven days in the garage. So I didn't leave the garage for seven days,

8 because the first time I went out I was beaten, and I didn't dare go out.

9 Q. You said that you saw him more often in the second half of July.

10 A. Yes, more often in the second half of July.

11 Q. Did you see Zeljko Meakic?

12 A. Very frequently.

13 Q. How was he dressed?

14 A. In a camouflage uniform.

15 Q. Did he differ from the others?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So you saw him often?

18 A. Yes, very often.

19 Q. Where did he move around?

20 A. Everywhere in the camp. Even his car, which had been stolen

21 somewhere, a green Mercedes --

22 Q. Will you please answer just my question. You said that Drago was

23 a deputy. Whose deputy was he?

24 A. Zeljko Meakic's.

25 Q. What was Ranko Mijic's position then?

1 A. Ranko Mijic was head of the team of investigators working in the

2 Omarska camp and even of the team of investigators that worked in

3 Keraterm.

4 Q. You said that you came to the conclusion that Drago was a deputy

5 because he approved movement of detainees from one room to another.

6 A. Not only because that, because all the problems that occurred in

7 the second half of July and the beginning of August, until we were

8 transferred to Trnopolje, all the administrative things were taken care of

9 by Drago Prcac.

10 Q. So according to you, in the second half of July, Drago Prcac was

11 deputy and in charge of administrative affairs?

12 A. That is my impression.

13 Q. Let me ask you something else. Was he the oldest person in the

14 camp among the camp personnel?

15 A. I think not.

16 Q. Who was older?

17 A. I'm not talking about the guards.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Jovan Simic.

19 A. I think that he was among the oldest. I think there were several

20 guards who were perhaps older, who looked older.

21 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Do you know Azedin Oklopcic?

23 A. I do very well.

24 Q. Do you know Abdulah Brkic?

25 A. I do.

1 Q. Do you know Rezak Hukanovic?

2 A. I do. I know him, too.

3 Q. Tell me, please, your sister was in the camp as well?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. She was in the restaurant?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. She could see from the restaurant through the glass the events on

8 the pista?

9 A. Yes, more or less.

10 Q. Did you have a problem with water? With water?

11 A. Yes, very often.

12 Q. Was there a truck with a water tank often the pista?

13 A. As far as I remember, this truck would bring water only for the

14 guards and the camp personnel.

15 Q. But was there this truck or some container or anything on the

16 pista?

17 A. Not as far as I can remember.

18 Q. Did you talk to your sister about the events in the Omarska camp?

19 A. Very rarely, because my sister doesn't wish to be reminded of that

20 time.

21 Q. Did you talk to any other woman from the camp?

22 A. Perhaps with one of my acquaintances that I knew before going to

23 the camp.

24 Q. What about Sifeta Susic?

25 A. Yes. I knew Sifeta Susic very well.

1 Q. Do you see her after going to the camp? Did you visit her?

2 A. Maybe once.

3 Q. Let us go back to the incident with Rizo Hadzalic. You described

4 that incident in some detail. Was Rizo sitting or standing just before

5 that incident?

6 A. Rizo and Goran were standing. They had just been brought to the

7 place from where they were supposed to be taken for interrogation.

8 Q. Were they eating anything?

9 A. I didn't see that. But later I learnt that one of the detainees

10 coming back from the restaurant gave Rizo a piece of bread.

11 Q. Let me remind you, you already have the version in Serbian of your

12 statement from the 12th to the 16th of November, 1994, which, as my

13 learned friend has already established, you read and signed. Would you

14 look at page 27, please? And I should like to remind you -- 27, third

15 paragraph.

16 A. I don't have page 27.

17 Q. I apologise. The page is 19. I'm sorry, the page is 19. Third

18 paragraph. You said, "Rizo Hadzalic, Goran Kardum, Asif Kapetanovic,

19 Dzevad Grozdanic and Cmil Pezo. I saw that Rizo and Goran had been

20 killed. Someone threw them some bread and someone said bon apetite. They

21 used a Muslim word to ask the person to join them. A guard heard and they

22 were beaten to death. Rizo died on the pista."

23 Have you read it?

24 A. Yes, I have.

25 Q. On the same page, the first paragraph, last sentence, let me

1 remind you. "I asked to go on the pista, the best place, because you

2 could breathe there, and there was a truck with a water tank standing

3 there. There was a water tank there."

4 Did you say that?

5 A. Sir, I wrote that, and when I asked to go to the pista, thinking

6 that the water tank was for us, but it was only for the guards.

7 Q. But you gave this statement after you left the camp.

8 A. Possibly, but I am telling you there was a water tank but we

9 didn't use it.

10 Q. Was there a water tank or not?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where was it?

13 A. It was somewhere over there.

14 Q. It was not on the pista?

15 A. Yes, on the pista but on the opposite side, and it was used by the

16 guards. We didn't take that water. We drank polluted water.

17 Q. What did you call the pista? Was it the area between restaurant

18 and the hangar? Were there pots for plants there?

19 A. Yes.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Could you slow down, please?

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Pauses, please, Mr. Jovan Simic,

22 otherwise we just can't follow you.

23 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation].

24 Q. On that pista, was there a water tank? Yes or no.

25 A. Yes, there was.

1 Q. So on the pista, between the restaurant and the hangar, which was

2 marked with flower pots?

3 A. Not there, because the entire asphalt area was called by us by the

4 pista, because it was asphalt, but more specifically, when you say "the

5 pista" --

6 Q. I do apologise. Was Rizo Hadzalic perhaps standing again the

7 restaurant wall?

8 A. Yes, he was, but he wasn't facing the restaurant wall, as far as I

9 can remember, because he had only just been brought there.

10 Q. Which restaurant wall?

11 A. I told you.

12 Q. You said next to the pillar.

13 A. Left of the pillar, next to the entrance.

14 Q. He wasn't next to the other wall of the restaurant, which

15 continues and becomes the glass wall?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And he wasn't sitting and he wasn't eating?

18 A. I don't know. I didn't see that.

19 Q. Would you tell me who you were with in Mujo's room, as we don't

20 have much time. Was Mr. Rezak Hukanovic in that room?

21 A. As I spent a lot of time on the pista, I don't remember if he was

22 in Mujo's room because there were more than 700 of us at one point.

23 Q. One more question. Somebody was in charge of the room. First it

24 was Mujo and then Burho?

25 A. Yes, my colleague.

1 Q. And who was the third person? Was it perhaps Avledin [phoen]?

2 A. No, it wasn't Avledin.

3 Q. From this semi-circular glass above the entrance, when you're on

4 the pista, when you're standing in that area, glassed-in area, did you see

5 the whole pista?

6 A. I had no occasion to look at the pista from there.

7 Q. Can you see the entrance to the restaurant from there?

8 A. I think so.

9 Q. You assume so but you don't know.

10 A. No, I don't know. I was never there.

11 Q. Do you know or do you not know? Is it possible to see the

12 entrance to the restaurant from this semi-circular glass area?

13 A. I think so.

14 Q. Well, tell me yes or no.

15 A. Sir, I was never there in that glassed-in area, so I don't know.

16 Q. Very well. Just one more thing. Is it true that during the last

17 seven or ten days the conditions in the camp improved? Could you explain

18 that? Did conditions in the camp improve during the last seven or ten

19 days?

20 A. No. No, that is not correct. Perhaps the last day or two.

21 Q. Something else, please. As far as Zeljko Meakic is concerned, you

22 said you saw him frequently.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. That he wore a camouflage uniform.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. How did you come to the conclusion that he was the camp

2 commander?

3 A. Because he behaved in such a way, a man who issued orders to

4 everyone, not just to us.

5 Q. Did he give orders to Drago Prcac?

6 A. He did.

7 Q. Did you see that?

8 A. Yes, but when he was absent, then it was Drago Prcac.

9 Q. Did you see Drago giving orders to someone?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. To whom?

12 A. To the guards.

13 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, I have no further

14 questions. I'm sorry, Your Honour, just one more question.

15 Q. You gave several statements. When you came to The Hague, did you

16 make another statement to the investigator, a new statement?

17 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

18 Q. Did you talk to the Prosecutors when you came to The Hague?

19 A. I don't know. I don't remember, believe me.

20 Q. This time, when did you come?

21 A. Five days ago.

22 Q. Well, did you talk to the Prosecution during the last five days?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. Did you give a statement?

25 A. I don't know. We did talk about the court proceedings.

1 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

2 questions.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Jovan Simic.

4 Mr. Krstan Simic, if you please.

5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

7 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Sivac.

8 A. Good afternoon.

9 Q. From what the Presiding Judge has already said, you have already

10 heard my name. My name is Krstan Simic. I am from Banja Luka. I have

11 only three very brief questions for you.

12 Let me first check if I have correctly understood you while you

13 were answering questions by Mr. Jovan Simic. You stated that after your

14 second arrest, you spent some time in the garage before the interrogation

15 and that you went outside only on one occasion during that time, that you

16 were beaten up, and that you never went outside before the interrogation.

17 Is that correct?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. Thank you. From the garage you were taken for interrogation?

20 A. Yes, that is correct.

21 Q. Could you tell us who interrogated you?

22 A. I was taken to the first room on the left-hand side, and this is

23 where encountered my old acquaintances Neso Babic and Neso Tomcic, who

24 used to work as investigators in the Prijedor SUP for a number years with

25 me.

1 Q. You said you were not beaten.

2 A. No, I was not.

3 Q. You also stated that after the interrogation, you were sent to the

4 pista.

5 A. Yes, that is correct.

6 Q. Did any of the interrogators send you to the pista?

7 A. Yes. The interrogator, in consultation with the guard who had

8 brought me there, after they had finished said, "He has been

9 interrogated. Take him to the pista."

10 Q. Thank you very much. And my last question for you, Mr. Sivac:

11 The guards or the guard, while you were at the pista and in Mujo's room,

12 could they talk to the detainees?

13 A. You mean, could the guards talk to the detainees?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. Yes, they could. They would take people out. They would call

16 them by their names.

17 Q. Yes. Thank you. So they were able to communicate with them

18 freely?

19 A. Well, I wouldn't call it exactly communication. It was rather

20 rough treatment.

21 Q. Yes. But I only wanted to know if they were free to do so on

22 their own.

23 A. Yes, correct.

24 Q. Thank you very much, witness. I have no further questions for

25 you?

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Krstan

2 Simic.

3 Madam Hollis, is there going to be any redirect examination?

4 MS. HOLLIS: No, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I haven't

6 heard the interpretation, but I believe I have understood. I think that

7 you don't have any questions for the witness.

8 Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.

9 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Questioned by the Court:

11 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Sivac, good morning. Can you hear me?

12 A. Yes, I can hear you very well, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE RIAD: I would like to have some precisions concerning your

14 testimony, and perhaps you may be in a position to help me. Concerning

15 this incident of your being beaten by a whip with an iron end in it, and I

16 won't describe it, by this guard called Savic -- by this guard called --

17 are you hearing me? Can you still hear me?

18 A. Yes. Yes, I can.

19 JUDGE RIAD: You were beaten by this guard called Savic till you

20 fell on the stairs and so on. Was Radic in the vicinity in that case?

21 Was he present? Because you also said that he would be always there when

22 the gauntlet -- when you reached -- the whole group reached the gauntlet

23 and would be giving orders for beatings. Was that under an order of

24 Radic?

25 A. I don't know whether he ordered that, but I know that he was at

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1 the beginning of the gauntlet. Since it was in the shape of letter "L",

2 it is quite probable that Mladjo Radic didn't see it happen.

3 JUDGE RIAD: When he was there and things like that happened, did

4 he order to prevent it?

5 A. No. No. He was probably inciting the guards to beat us even

6 heart harder.

7 JUDGE RIAD: Were you beaten by this Savic for any personal reason

8 between you and him or were you just chosen as part of the whole group, as

9 a systematic attitude?

10 A. It was quite systematic when it came to beatings. I had never

11 seen Savic prior to my arrival in the Omarska camp.

12 JUDGE RIAD: Speaking of some of the people you mentioned, you

13 spoke about Kvocka. You said that he had always a soldier escorting him

14 and standing behind him, behind his back. Was this a special treatment,

15 or did many people have this privilege of being escorted and treated like

16 that?

17 A. No. The escort accompanied Miroslav Kvocka only when he was in

18 the Omarska camp.

19 JUDGE RIAD: And you mentioned concerning Krkan, you said that he

20 would be calling people out, and they came back in bags or blankets, which

21 is, of course, very clear. Was that especially the case with the people

22 who Krkan called out, or was it also part of the systematic system, the

23 systematic procedure of calling people out and the same - and coming back

24 under the same conditions?

25 A. They conducted themselves in a systematic way. I spoke about the

1 people who would come back from the interrogations in bags or blankets,

2 yes, I did.

3 JUDGE RIAD: But you specified that it was especially in the case

4 of Krkan?

5 A. When the detainees were taken for interrogation, they were often

6 killed in the interrogation rooms, during other shifts as well. It was

7 not characteristic only of Krkan's shift.

8 JUDGE RIAD: So what made you say that, that it was more

9 particularly in Krkan's shift? Was there something different? I have

10 here your words.

11 A. Yes, there was, because this took place most often in Krkan's

12 shift.

13 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you mentioned that Krle would be seen also in

14 the pista giving instructions to guards. Was it obvious that he was being

15 obeyed and respected or just talking to them as one of them?

16 A. No. One could observe that all of the orders that the guards had

17 received from Krle would be implemented in respect of us -- would be

18 implemented in respect of us. So it means that they did obey Krle.

19 JUDGE RIAD: Now, speaking of Prcac, you said that he would give

20 orders to the guards, especially to transfer detainees from one room to

21 another. You mentioned to the Defence that he was specially -- or he was

22 in charge of administrative affairs. But did you also watch or notice

23 that he was commanding one of the shifts, or was he just an administrator?

24 A. He was not a shift commander. He would be in all of the shifts.

25 He would even come to the camp during the night very often, and he would

1 bring lists with names of detainees with him.

2 JUDGE RIAD: You also mentioned that most of the people who were

3 called out were prominent citizens, those who went out and never came

4 back. What did you mean by "prominent citizens"?

5 A. Yes. Very respectable citizens: doctors, engineers, professors,

6 economists, intellectuals, and other highly-respected people in the town

7 of Prijedor.

8 JUDGE RIAD: And these were the people who were particularly

9 called out?

10 A. Yes, they were.

11 JUDGE RIAD: Lastly, you went back, as you said, to Prijedor till

12 the 16th of December, but you had to leave and left everything. You left

13 your belongings, your savings, and everything. Did you really have to

14 leave that, or was it because you just wanted to run away?

15 A. Yes, I did. The pressure was enormous, and we had to abandon

16 everything and try to save our lives and the lives of our family members.

17 JUDGE RIAD: You said you were under great pressure. They forced

18 you to leave everything? Could you have gone out with your things with

19 you?

20 A. No. No, we couldn't do that. We could only take some plastic

21 bags with us.

22 JUDGE RIAD: And others accepted to stay and could stay, other

23 people of your family, of your acquaintance?

24 A. No. My whole family who had been living in that town for 300

25 years had to abandon it; however, over 20 members of my close family were

1 killed in Prijedor.

2 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much, Witness Sivac. Thank you.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

4 Judge Riad.

5 Madam Judge Wald has the floor.

6 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Sivac, do you know whether or not the

7 interrogators were there all the time, or whether or not they came in the

8 morning and went home at night, the interrogators?

9 A. They came in a special bus to the Omarska camp at 8.00 in the

10 morning, and they would leave after 5.00 in the afternoon.

11 JUDGE WALD: So there wouldn't be any -- to your knowledge, there

12 wouldn't be any interrogators around in the evening hour after the bus

13 left? Whatever happened in those later hours happened without the

14 intervention or instruction of the interrogators; is that right?

15 A. Yes, that is correct.

16 JUDGE WALD: My next question is to clarify something that you

17 said earlier. You said that toward the end of July there were more

18 mass -- I think you used the word mass killings, callings out, things like

19 that. Do I understand you correctly that things, conditions in the camp,

20 got worse as time went by up until the very end, you said the two or two

21 before, or is that not true? Did they stay the same, or did they get

22 perceptively worse as time went by, from the time you came back on June

23 20, 23rd, whenever it was?

24 A. The conditions in the camp were increasingly worse, and they

25 reached the peak, I think, after the 20th of July. Then from the 20th of

1 July, a number of people were called out and taken away, and those people

2 never came back. It was especially intensive on the 25th, 26th, and the

3 27th of July. Those were the worst days.

4 JUDGE WALD: Did you have any knowledge or impression as to why

5 that was so, why the number of callings out or disappearances would

6 intensify at that period?

7 A. According to what I know, it is possible that the leadership, the

8 people who had established the camps, hurried up and tried to liquidate

9 all of their potential opponents, that is, the people who were likely to

10 resist them upon their release. That is why during that period of time,

11 almost all of the Prijedor intellectuals of Muslim and Croat ethnic

12 background were killed.

13 JUDGE WALD: To your knowledge, did this period follow any

14 exposure of the existence of the camps in international or national media?

15 A. Yes, that is what they seemed to fear most, that the camps that

16 they had established would be discovered, and that the images about the

17 conditions in the camp would tour the world.

18 JUDGE WALD: Now, you mentioned that you knew Mr. Kvocka had a

19 position of authority because he was treated with respect, and as he moved

20 around he talked to the guards, the guards appeared to treat him with

21 respect, to obey his orders.

22 Let me ask you this question: On the first time that you were

23 arrested, and you were only there for a short period on June 10th, and as

24 I understand your testimony, Mr. Kvocka said, "Why are you here," and,

25 "We'll have to talk to Mr. Meakic about this," and then ultimately you

1 were released on that day.

2 Then you came back on the 23rd, and you said you spent -- well, at

3 one point you said the 23rd, another time around the 20th. But anyway,

4 you spent seven days in the hangar, and then you would see Kvocka again

5 when you went out on the pista in the first half of July. Is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE WALD: Okay. When you saw Mr. Kvocka in this second period,

8 in the first half of July, was it your impression that he carried the same

9 authority and respect and people treated him in the same way that they had

10 treated him earlier when you saw him on June 10th? Do you see any

11 reference in the way he was treated by the guards or in the appearance of

12 his authority between the first time you saw him in early June and this

13 period in the first part of July when you say you saw him several times on

14 the pista?

15 A. As far as I could see, the relations didn't change.

16 JUDGE WALD: Okay. My last question then would be: During this

17 same period, the early part of July, you would see both Mr. Kvocka, I

18 believe according to your testimony, and Mr. Prcac. Did you see any

19 difference in the way they were treated or would you have said they had

20 about the same authority, or would you say one had more authority than the

21 other, Kvocka and Prcac?

22 A. As far as one could observe, the treatment -- or rather, the

23 authority was the same.

24 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.

25 A. You're welcome.

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Sivac, I have only one

2 question for you. You have been answering questions by the Prosecutor, by

3 the Defence, and the Judges. Is there anything else that you wish to say,

4 anything that has not been said so far? If you wish to do so, you can do

5 it now.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you very much

7 for providing me with the opportunity to testify before such an honourable

8 Chamber. This was my moral obligation as a human being.

9 All I wish to say at present is that during the events that took

10 place in Prijedor in 1992, I lost countless friends as well, and I would

11 like to say that I have been testifying here for the past two days on my

12 behalf, in my own name, and I also felt that it was right for me to speak

13 on their behalf as well.

14 This is all that I wanted to say, Your Honour. Thank you very

15 much.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Sivac, for coming

17 here to testify. We would like to wish you a pleasant journey back to

18 your place of residence, and I hope that the thoughts that you have about

19 the events that had taken place will help the world in a way and that the

20 events -- such events will never happen again.

21 I will now kindly ask the usher to show you out of the courtroom.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Hollis, what's the

24 situation as regards our next witness? According to what I know, you

25 requested certain protective measures for this witness yesterday.

1 MS. HOLLIS: That is correct, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But before we proceed, let us

3 think about the schedule. If we have a break now, then after that we will

4 have one hour and 15 minutes for the testimony, for the examination. I

5 should like to know whether it is worthwhile beginning with the testimony

6 at all. I don't know whether we should begin the examination and then

7 have a break until the 26th of August, without any contacts in the

8 meantime. The witness will only have taken his oath and then the parties

9 will not have an opportunity to contact the witness.

10 I don't know what you think about that. I don't know whether we

11 will be able to finish the examination, including the cross-examination

12 within one hour and 15 minutes, because I'm referring to both stages of

13 the examination of the witness. So if you think that it is possible, we

14 can perhaps start, but if we do not have guarantees for that, and if the

15 witness has to come back again after the 28th, I think it is better not to

16 proceed with the witness.

17 I should like to hear you, Ms. Hollis, on this issue.

18 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, we don't think

19 we could guarantee that we would finish the entire process. That being

20 so, it is also the position of the Prosecutor that perhaps it would be

21 better not to begin it without the ability to end it. We would be looking

22 at approximately six weeks between the beginning of it and in finalising

23 the testimony.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The Chamber thinks that we can

1 at least make a ruling in respect of the protective measures for this

2 witness.

3 Pursuant to the oral request made by the Prosecutor yesterday,

4 during a closed session hearing, with the objective of securing protective

5 measures for the witness whose name was mentioned yesterday but whose name

6 is not going to be mentioned now, the Chamber estimates that enough

7 information has been supplied for us to grant the requested protective

8 measures.

9 For these reasons, the Chamber shall apply mutatis mutandis its

10 oral ruling of the 3rd of May, 2000 and hereby grants the motion.

11 The witness in question shall be given a pseudonym, pseudonym AN,

12 and also shall benefit of protective measures involving face distortion.

13 This has been our ruling.

14 Before we adjourn, I should like to know if there is anything else

15 that needs to be brought to our attention, anything that we did not

16 discuss yesterday. We have a few minutes left, and we're now going to

17 have a six-week break in this case. So if there is anything you should

18 like to raise, this is the convenient time to do that.

19 It seems that there are no issues to be discussed, so all I can do

20 at this point is to wish you a nice holiday, if you can have one, and we

21 will see each other again on the 28th of August to resume the trial in

22 this case. Have a pleasant journey home, and I wish you a nice holiday.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

24 12.55 p.m. To be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day

25 of August, 2000 at 9.30 a.m.