000831ed

Page 4476

1 Thursday, 31 August 2000

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The accused may be seated.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, ladies and

8 gentlemen; good morning to our technicians, interpreters; good morning,

9 legal assistants, representatives of the registry; good morning, counsel

10 for the Prosecution; good morning, counsel for the Defence; good morning

11 to the accused.

12 Good morning to you, Mr. Brkic. Can you hear me?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Have you had a good rest?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You're now going to continue

17 answering questions that will be put to you by Mr. Keegan.

18 Mr. Keegan, you have the floor.

19 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 WITNESS: ABDULAH BRKIC [Resumed]

21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 Examined by Mr. Keegan: [Continued]

23 Q. Mr. Brkic, when we concluded yesterday, you had testified that the

24 bus you were on had briefly stopped at Keraterm and then continued on to

25 the Omarska camp. Do you recall that?

Page 4477

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, at this time could the witness be shown

3 Exhibit 1/26, which is a map.

4 That's fine right there. Thank you.

5 Q. Mr. Brkic, can you take a look at the map that's on the ELMO

6 there, the projector.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And can you pick out, please, the route that the bus you had --

9 that the bus you were on followed on its way to Omarska. Did you travel

10 on the main road, the new road, or the old road?

11 A. We travelled along the new road.

12 Q. If you can point to it on the projector, please.

13 A. Yes. This is Prijedor, Cirkin Polje, Kalada, Gornji Orlovci.

14 Q. The new road you've been talking about, is that indicated by the

15 red line, or the road that's indicated by a red line on the map there?

16 A. Yes. Yes.

17 Q. Now, the villages which you just mentioned -- Cirkin Polje,

18 Orlovci, Gornji Orlovci -- who lived in those villages? What ethnic group

19 were the majority in those villages, if you know?

20 A. They were Serb.

21 Q. And at the time that you went by those villages on the 30th of

22 May, what condition were they in?

23 A. They were quite normal, as if nothing had happened.

24 Q. Did you see any destroyed houses or other buildings?

25 A. No.

Page 4478

1 Q. Now, if you could follow on, and we'll need to move the map along

2 as we go. The next villages along that road on the way to Omarska, after

3 Gornji Orlovci, we can see Kozarusa there.

4 A. Yes. Kozarusa, Kozarac, Kamicani.

5 Q. Now, what ethnic group lived in those villages?

6 A. They were the Muslim ethnic group.

7 Q. And on the 30th of May, what condition were those villages in as

8 you drove by?

9 A. Everything was burning, on fire. Practically no house stood

10 standing complete.

11 Q. And if we could move past Kamicani, move the map farther down as

12 we go towards Omarska. The map will need to come up as well. Bring it

13 down just a bit. Down farther. Bring the map down, please. There you

14 go. Thank you.

15 Okay. We can still see Kozarac just at the top of the map where

16 the fold is. Now, as you follow down the road, do you see the turnoff for

17 the Omarska village?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is that the route that the bus took?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, as you get to that area, the turnoff for the Omarska village

22 and down to the Omarska village, what was the majority ethnic group that

23 lived in those villages?

24 A. The Serb ethnic group.

25 Q. And what was the situation in those villages as you drove by?

Page 4479

1 A. Everything was in order, quite normal.

2 Q. Thank you. Mr. Brkic, what happened when the bus arrived at the

3 Omarska camp?

4 A. When the bus arrived at the Omarska camp, we stopped, the driver

5 got out and the escort did too, and he went off to the administrative

6 building. We waited for about half an hour, after which time they came

7 back, turned the bus on again, switched it on, and we went back to

8 Keraterm.

9 Q. And did the bus follow the same route on the way back?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, when your bus arrived again for the second time at Keraterm,

12 what occurred?

13 A. When we came to Keraterm, a soldier came in. I don't know --

14 didn't know him. He asked whether anybody had the keys to the car and

15 that he would look after the car for them, but we all kept quiet. He went

16 out and said that we too should come out one by one, and when we got out,

17 that we were to line up against the wall, to put our three fingers up

18 against the wall and spread our legs, and each of us -- he gave us a blow,

19 each of us, on the back and took us into a big room.

20 Q. Now, this soldier that you referred to, how was he dressed?

21 A. He was wearing a camouflage uniform.

22 Q. Was he carrying a weapon of any kind?

23 A. Yes, he was. An automatic.

24 Q. Did you recognise that soldier?

25 A. No.

Page 4480

1 Q. Now, you referred to having to be put up against a wall, and you

2 said, "We were told to put our three fingers up against the wall." What

3 do you mean by your three fingers?

4 A. On the wall. Well, I don't know. That's how we were told to

5 stand, like that.

6 Q. What three fingers are you referring to? What does that mean?

7 A. These three fingers, like this. That was their form of greeting,

8 the Serbs.

9 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, for the record, the gesture the witness

10 referred to involved the thumb and first two fingers of each hand.

11 Q. Now, after you were searched and beaten by this guard, where were

12 you taken?

13 A. They took me -- that is to say, at the entrance to the building,

14 there was a smaller room and then a bigger room with a sort of steel door,

15 and they put me in there. There was concrete on the floor. There were

16 five or six pallets, nothing else. Wooden pallets on the floor, nothing

17 else.

18 Q. Now, you said, "They put me in there." Were you referring to the

19 bigger room?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How was that room referred to by the prisoners? What was it

22 called?

23 A. Afterwards I heard that they referred to it as Room 2.

24 Q. How many rooms were there at the Keraterm camp where prisoners

25 were kept that you're aware of?

Page 4481

1 A. While I was in Keraterm, there were two rooms.

2 Q. How long did you spend in Keraterm camp?

3 A. I spent in Keraterm camp from the 30th of May up until the 11th of

4 June, 11th or 12th of June.

5 Q. Now, when you arrived at Keraterm, in addition to the soldier that

6 you've already spoken about, were there other soldiers in the area?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you recognise any of them?

9 A. On that first night I didn't recognise anyone.

10 Q. Now, during the time that you were in Keraterm camp, were

11 prisoners beaten?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Were prisoners killed?

14 A. No.

15 Q. That you're aware of.

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. While you were there in Keraterm camp, was there a group of

18 prisoners who were beaten more than others?

19 A. Yes. It was a group of perhaps 12 people.

20 Q. How were those people referred to in the way they were treated?

21 A. Well, I don't know how they were referred to but ...

22 Q. Did you ever hear the phrase "special treatment"?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you know a prisoner by the name of -- or did you hear of a

25 prisoner by the name of Fajzo Mujkanovic?

Page 4482

1 A. I didn't know him but I heard about him on that particular day.

2 Q. On that particular day, what occurred involving that prisoner?

3 A. It was on the 1st, I think. The door to the room that I was in

4 was open and a vehicle stormed in at great speed. I don't know what type

5 of vehicle it was; perhaps it was a Mercedes, black in colour; perhaps it

6 was a BMW. But anyway, from that bus -- no, from that vehicle, I mean,

7 Zigic came out, and later on another man whom I didn't know at the time

8 but later on I learned that he was Duca, Dule Knezevic, and Timarac got

9 out, Saponja. Duca asked where Fajzo was. However, in the room that I

10 was in, they were all people from Puharska and I didn't know Fajzo. I

11 didn't know who Fajzo was at all. They asked us to tell them where Fajzo

12 was, and if we didn't tell them, they threatened to kill us all.

13 Then suddenly somebody shouted out that he was in the other room,

14 in Room 1, that Fajzo was there. So they took him out. As the door was

15 open, we could watch all this. We were all huddled in a corner of a room;

16 there were about 100 to 150 of us. I don't know the exact number. But we

17 were afraid that they would kill us all with the car.

18 They threw Fajzo down. Duca took out a knife and made an incision

19 across his neck here. He demanded that he tell him who had killed his

20 brother. However, Fajzo cried and screamed and said that it wasn't him,

21 that he didn't know who it was. Then they brought a woman and a little

22 girl of about four or five. She might have been four or five. She was

23 eating some biscuits. Duca started shouting again and said, "If you don't

24 tell me who killed my brother, I'm going to slaughter your wife and your

25 child." Then one of the guards said, "They're coming," and they got back

Page 4483

1 into the car and left.

2 Fajzo started to crawl on all fours, and instead of going back

3 into his room, went in Room 2 and laid down by the door. People came up

4 to him to help him; they wiped the blood off him and gave him some water

5 and asked if he wanted anything to eat.

6 Q. Now, you indicated that when this car came into the room, in

7 addition to Knezevic and the others that you mentioned, a man named Zigic

8 got out. Did you know this man Zigic from before the war?

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 Q. How did you know this man Zigic?

11 A. Well, we worked for about four years together in Prijedor. We

12 were taxi drivers.

13 Q. After the time that you changed from being a taxi driver to moving

14 on to your next position that you described yesterday, did you continue to

15 see this man Zigic around the Prijedor area?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How was this man Zigic dressed when you saw him that day in the

18 camp, if you recall?

19 A. He was wearing the multicoloured, camouflage uniform and a red

20 cap. He had a pistol, a Scorpio-type pistol. That's it.

21 Q. Did you see this man Zigic take part in the beating and

22 maltreatment of that prisoner, Fajzo Mujkanovic?

23 A. He was standing up above him but was not taking part in it. He

24 was present but he didn't beat Fajzo. Duca did that.

25 Q. Now, you referred earlier to this group of prisoners, about 12,

Page 4484

1 you said, that were in your room who were beaten more than the others.

2 Did you ever see this man Zigic take part in the beatings of those

3 individuals?

4 A. Well, it was rather difficult to see that because he would come

5 frequently. Not frequently, practically every day he was in Keraterm, and

6 he would take them out. Now, whether he personally beat them or not, I

7 don't know because I didn't see him actually beating them. But he did

8 take them out, and they had to sing the Chetnik songs the whole night and

9 they were maltreated. When they were brought back in the morning, they

10 were half dead.

11 Q. Were you aware of a prisoner in the camp who was known as Car?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Are you aware of what happened to that man?

14 A. I don't know because I left Keraterm, so I don't know what

15 happened to him afterwards. But I do know that Zigic mistreated him many

16 times in front of the room in which I was placed. There was a sniper's

17 nest with a sniper on it in front of that room, and Zigic put the gun on

18 him one day and he made him run around with it and sing Chetnik songs,

19 with this machine-gun on his back.

20 Q. Now, the person with the machine-gun on their back, that was Car,

21 the prisoner?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What other type of maltreatment was inflicted on that prisoner,

24 Car, and others that you saw?

25 A. Well, there was all types of maltreatment. They would beat him so

Page 4485

1 much that then they would end up by throwing him into a garbage

2 container. That's how much they beat him. Him and another man whom they

3 called Sengin, and Jasmin Cepic. They called him Sengin but his name was

4 Jasmin Cepic, I believe, this other man.

5 Q. These other beatings that you're describing, did the man Zigic

6 take part in those beatings as well?

7 A. Well, I've already said that he was in Keraterm almost every day.

8 Now, I don't know whether he personally beat them. We couldn't see that

9 but ...

10 Q. Was Zigic present when those individuals were called out of the

11 room?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What condition would the prisoners be in when they came back into

14 the room?

15 A. Well, they were almost half dead.

16 Q. Are you aware of an incident that involved broken glass?

17 A. I don't know which glass you mean.

18 Q. Are you aware of an incident where prisoners were maltreated by

19 making them sit on broken glass?

20 A. Yes. They talked about that when they came back in, that Zigic

21 was there, that there was some glass bottles in the cases and they were

22 broken and that they had to take down their trousers and pants and sit on

23 that.

24 Q. When you say "they talked about it when they came back," are you

25 referring to the prisoners?

Page 4486

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you remember which prisoners were involved in that incident,

3 who it was that was made to sit on that glass?

4 A. Well, I didn't know many people from that group, because they were

5 mostly people who were from outside Prijedor, outside the town. I didn't

6 know them. And those were my first encounters with those people, so I

7 couldn't actually tell you their names and say that that was such-and-such

8 a person, because I didn't know their names.

9 Q. How often, as best you can recall, was this group of 12 called out

10 and beaten or otherwise mistreated?

11 A. I already said that while I was in Keraterm, this took place every

12 night.

13 Q. And to the best of your recollection, how often was the man Zigic

14 present when those individuals were called out and mistreated?

15 A. Almost every time.

16 Q. Did you yourself have any contact with this man Zigic while you

17 were in the camp?

18 A. Yes, I did one day. My son brought me some food, and Zigic

19 brought me that food. That is what my son told me, who was 14 years old

20 at that time. He said when I -- when he came there, he said, "I will give

21 this food to your dad, but I will kill him as well." But Zigic never did

22 me any harm. He never touched me. And he did bring me that food.

23 After a while, on the same day, he called me out and I went out to

24 where the scales were, where the cargo used to be weighed. Behind the

25 scales there were five or six soldiers whom I didn't know. There was a

Page 4487

1 lot of meat there, a lot of alcohol, maybe three or four bottles of

2 alcohol. And he offered me some drink and I told him, "You know I don't

3 drink." And then he told me to have something to eat, and I told him that

4 I -- that he just brought me some food, that I would have enough food to

5 eat. And then he said, "Do you remember how often you cursed my Serbian

6 mother at the railway station?" And that surprised me a little, because

7 we used to be on good terms. And then I asked me [as interpreted], "Do

8 you remember how many times you cursed my balija mother?" And then he

9 said, "I suppose you're not angry with me." I said, "Well, I'm not

10 angry. You're the one who mentioned that." Then I asked him if I can go

11 back to the room and he said I could, and I left. So that was our

12 conversation.

13 Q. You indicated that your son brought you some food in Keraterm.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you also receive food on other occasions?

16 A. Yes, I did. While I was in Keraterm I used to get food every day.

17 Q. And who brought the food to the camp for you?

18 A. Two or three days it was my son who brought me the food, and after

19 that my father.

20 Q. And to your knowledge did other prisoners receive food from their

21 families?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. During the time that families were being allowed to bring food to

24 the camp, were any problems ever caused as a result of that food being

25 brought in, or any guards ever injured, or did any prisoners ever escape

Page 4488

1 as a result of that, that you were aware of?

2 A. No, not during my stay.

3 Q. To your knowledge, there were no security problems caused by

4 allowing people to bring food to the camp?

5 A. I don't know anything about that. There were no problems during

6 my stay there. People would come on a daily basis -- brothers, sisters,

7 relatives -- and the guards would pick up the food at the gate and then

8 bring it to the rooms.

9 Q. While you were in Keraterm, were any meals provided by the camp

10 personnel or by the camp itself?

11 A. While I was in Keraterm, there was a truck which brought food from

12 the barracks on one occasion. I think it brought some pasta and I ate it

13 on that occasion. But while I was at Keraterm, that was the only such

14 occasion.

15 Q. When you left the Keraterm camp, how were you called out?

16 A. They told me to pick up my stuff, but I didn't know -- I didn't

17 have much. I had been taken away in my T-shirt. There were about 12 of

18 us, and I think I was the last one in the group. We approached a van, and

19 Zigic was standing next to the van and he said, "See, Mujahedin." I

20 entered the van. They closed the door and took me to Omarska.

21 Q. Now, to your knowledge, did the practice of allowing families to

22 bring food or supplies to the camp in Keraterm, did that end?

23 A. Yes, it did. That is what I heard in Omarska. I heard that a man

24 had been killed next to the wire fence while he was bringing food to his

25 son, and as a result of that they prohibited such bringing of food.

Page 4489

1 Q. What happened when you arrived at Omarska?

2 A. I arrived in Omarska about 6.00 p.m. It was raining -- drizzling,

3 rather. They lined us up in front of the restaurant here that I can see

4 on the model, next to the glass area. This is where we waited for five or

5 ten minutes, until a soldier came to pick us up, and he took the 12 of us

6 in the direction of the "white house." We got into the "white house" and

7 we went to the first room on the left-hand side. We found three

8 individuals there, and I personally recognised a young man amongst them.

9 He was the son of one of my acquaintances. I believe that his name was

10 Halvadzic. I didn't know the other two. But later on I learnt that

11 Slavko Ecim was there, together with this other man whose surname was

12 Mesic and who was probably from Cela.

13 Q. Now, Mr. Brkic, while you were in that first room on the left in

14 the "white house," were you beaten?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you recognise the person who beat you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And who was that?

19 A. Duca Knezevic.

20 Q. And was anybody else with him in the room at the time you were

21 being beaten?

22 A. Yes. Duca Knezevic came together with Zoran Zigic. Sapina was

23 also with them, so was Timarac. And later on after Zigic had taken me out

24 of the room and took me to a room across the corridor, he gave me a piece

25 of paper and a pencil and he wanted me to write down the name of the SDA

Page 4490

1 president in Puharska, but at that time I really didn't know --

2 Q. I'd like to go back to when you were still in the first room on

3 the left. Can you describe what happened while you were in that room?

4 How were you beaten?

5 A. Yes. As we were being brought into the room, they told us to sit

6 down against the wall, and we sat down on the floor. I was the first one

7 next to the entrance. The window was open, and five or six of them were

8 at the window. They were provoking Slavko Ecim, calling him an Ustasha.

9 They would come in from time to time and beat him.

10 When the door opened, the first man I saw was Knezevic. He had a

11 club like this with a metal ball at the end of it. He didn't say a word,

12 and I immediately received five or six blows to my head. He was hitting

13 me with his hands, kicking me with his boots. And at that point Zigic

14 grabbed me by my hand and he took me out and brought me to this other room

15 and asked me to write down the name and the surname of the SDA president

16 in Puharska.

17 Q. Now, Mr. Brkic, before Zigic took you out of the first room on the

18 left, did you see him involved in beating the other prisoners in that

19 room?

20 A. No.

21 Q. What happened when you were taken into that second room on the

22 right and he gave you the piece of paper?

23 A. When I came into the room, I found two men standing there in one

24 of the corners of the room, and the soldier had his back turned towards me

25 and I didn't know who it was. As for the other man who was being beaten,

Page 4491

1 I did know him from before, but at first I couldn't simply recognise him.

2 After a while I realised it was Beganovic.

3 Q. And do you know the soldier who was beating him? Did you know his

4 name?

5 A. Yes. When he turned around, I saw him, and I realised it was

6 Nikica Janjic.

7 Q. And after Zigic put you in the room and gave you that piece of

8 paper, what did he then do, that is, Zigic? What did he do?

9 A. He left the room and I remained standing next to the desk. Janjic

10 was still beating Beganovic and I stood there thinking what I should write

11 down, because I had no idea. I didn't know who it was. And I would have

12 told him if I had known.

13 Then I heard some noise coming from the corridor, and Kiki came to

14 (redacted), who were then

15 badly beaten up by the group led by Duca. I was still standing there in

16 the room, and then they asked me whether I had written down the name, but

17 I told him I didn't because I didn't know what to write down.

18 At that point Janjic turned around. He called me a motherfucker.

19 He said, "Why are you lying? I'm sure you know." And he grabbed me by my

20 ear and he held a knife like this and he was about to cut my ear off. I

21 had my back turned to the door, and then I heard a voice, "Brta, is that

22 you?" But I didn't dare turn around.

23 At that moment the soldier came in. He took Janjic and pushed him

24 aside, and he said, "Don't touch him." And he took me out and brought me

25 back to the room where I initially came when I arrived. It was a young

Page 4492

1 man from Rasavci who used to work as a waiter at the railway station where

2 we used to drink coffee while we were waiting for our shift. I don't know

3 his name.

4 Q. Now, you said the man was a soldier, the one who pulled Janjic off

5 you --

6 A. Yes. He had a uniform.

7 Q. To your knowledge, was he a guard in the camp?

8 A. No. I never saw him again in Omarska.

9 Q. Now, during the time that you were in that second room on the

10 right, did you see Janjic, in fact, cut or stab anybody with that knife?

11 A. Yes. I don't know which hand it was but he made a cut on

12 Beganovic's hand.

13 Q. Now, when you say his hand, what part of the hand was it that you

14 recall being cut?

15 A. On the fist, here.

16 Q. Okay. The English translation says "fist." Where on the hand?

17 A. In this part here.

18 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, for the record, the witness is

19 indicating the wrist, the joint of the hand and the arm.

20 Q. When you saw Beganovic in that second room on the right, can you

21 describe what he looked like?

22 A. Yes. I've known Beganovic for quite some time. We grew up

23 together. He was rather fair; he had a bright complexion. But at that

24 time he looked like a black man to me. He was all black and blue, covered

25 in blood.

Page 4493

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English

14 and French transcripts

Page 4494

1 Q. Now, after that soldier, your former colleague, put you back in

2 the first room on the left, were you then moved to a different room after

3 that?

4 A. Yes. He took me to the room where I had initially been put up

5 when I came to Omarska.

6 Q. And then were you moved to a different room?

7 A. That happened only later on during the change of the shift, when

8 Duca and others left the camp.

9 Q. Why were you moved?

10 A. Well, I asked the man who had arrived with the next shift - later

11 on I learned that his name was Momo Ckalja - because when he came to the

12 room, he asked us where we were from, who we were, and I told him that we

13 had come from Keraterm and that we were originally from Puharska, so I

14 asked him if he could move us to another room because the situation there

15 was unbearable, because of Slavko Ecim who was continuously being

16 mistreated by the guards who would enter at any moment, and the situation

17 was terrible there. Then he said, "Let me see. I have to wait until the

18 change of the shift and then I will come back and see what can be done,"

19 and this is what happened. He came back, and he moved me to another room

20 which was right across the corridor. It was the room on the right-hand

21 side, immediately after the entrance to the "white house," and this is

22 where the 12 of us were transferred.

23 Q. Were you subsequently taken for interrogation while you were in

24 Omarska?

25 A. Yes, I was. I spent the night there, but I couldn't really sleep

Page 4495

1 because of the noise, the beatings inflicted on Slavko Ecim, because the

2 other room was only a metre or two metres away.

3 Early the following morning, a soldier came, he was rather

4 strongly built, and he called my name out and he told me to walk in front

5 of him, ahead of him. As I was getting out of the "white house," I saw

6 people lying down on the so-called pista. Nobody lifted their head. When

7 we entered the administration building, while we were still on the ground

8 floor, I saw that there was one interrogation room there and this is where

9 I was taken. I saw a person in a military uniform there, an SMB uniform.

10 He was tall, blonde, and he had a pistol stuck on his belt. I didn't know

11 that man. There was one desk in front of him and another one on the side

12 with a jug of water and a glass.

13 I had my back facing the door and he told me to sit down, and I

14 sat down. He asked me if I was thirsty and I had a glass of water at that

15 point. He asked me if I was a smoker; I said I was and he gave me a

16 cigarette. It was a Kent, I remember. I lit that cigarette, and then he

17 asked me if there was anything I could tell him about the current

18 situation, about what was going on. I told him I didn't know anything

19 about it, and he asked me, "Are you a member of any organisation?" I was

20 a member of only two organisations: one was the fisherman's association

21 and the other one was a football club. So those were my only two

22 memberships and those were the only membership fees that I paid. He

23 wanted to know whether I had given any money to any individuals, and I

24 told him I didn't, that I wasn't a rich man, I was just an average citizen

25 and didn't have much money.

Page 4496

1 Q. Did you learn where your interrogator was from?

2 A. I learned later on that the interrogator who interrogated me was

3 from Banja Luka. I didn't know him. But I must say that he treated me in

4 a correct manner. He asked me whether I was married, where my wife and

5 children were. They were at home at that time. He told me he was a

6 fisherman himself and that he used to come to the Sana River in Prijedor

7 to fish.

8 During that conversation, on maybe two or three occasions, the

9 door would open, the door to the room where we were at the moment. I

10 didn't know what it meant, what it was all about, but I noticed that he

11 would do like this with his head, and --

12 Q. Just a moment, please.

13 MR. KEEGAN: For the record, Your Honour, the witness was shaking

14 his head from side to side when he indicated what gesture the interrogator

15 was making.

16 Q. Mr. Brkic, did you at that time know what that gesture meant?

17 A. Well, we understand that gesture as meaning that no help is

18 needed. It is a kind of negative answer to something.

19 Q. In the context of that interrogation, what was he telling the

20 person who opened the door?

21 A. He didn't say anything about that person. He simply shook his

22 head.

23 Q. Do you know what he meant by that? Did you later learn what that

24 meant, when he shook his head "no"?

25 A. That is what I would learn later on. When I was taken to the

Page 4497

1 pista, other people told me that apparently no beatings were necessary,

2 that no force should be applied.

3 Q. After the interrogation, were you taken to get something to eat?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How were you taken? Were you escorted?

6 A. Yes. The interrogator called the guard who was standing next to

7 the room and he told him to take me to the restaurant and that I should be

8 given some food, something to eat. He said, "You are going to be

9 responsible for this man. No one should harm him."

10 The soldier walked ahead of me and I walked behind him. There was

11 a corridor there, and on both sides of the corridor, there were soldiers

12 who were holding various objects in their hands. I was supposed to pass

13 through that corridor in order to reach the dining area with the soldier.

14 He was walking in front of me and he was shaking his head like this, and

15 this is how I went through and was eventually given some beans to eat,

16 which were no longer good, but I was very hungry and I ate it all.

17 The soldier waited for me to finish the meal, and he then took me

18 out to the pista where I was told to lie down on my stomach.

19 Q. Now, the soldier, you indicated he was shaking his head when you

20 went through that cordon of soldiers in the hallway, going into the

21 restaurant. What did that indicate to you he was telling those other

22 soldiers when he was shaking his head? What did that mean?

23 A. Well, I concluded that I wasn't supposed to be beaten up.

24 Q. Now, how long did you spend on the pista?

25 A. I spent 38 days on the pista.

Page 4498

1 Q. Were you ever beaten on your way in to get meals during the

2 remainder of the time that you spent in the camp?

3 A. I personally wasn't, but they did beat other people. We would

4 receive blows two or three times a week, but I was sort of trying to avoid

5 those times to go and get my meal.

6 Q. How would you avoid the beatings on the way to the meals?

7 A. We had to form groups or, rather, columns of 30 people, and I

8 always tried to be the last one in the column. We were forced to run

9 through the corridor, and as the group would start running, I would then

10 turn around and fall down, lie down on my stomach on purpose in order to

11 avoid going there.

12 Q. You indicated that as the group started running, you would then

13 turn around and fall down and lie down on your stomach on purpose in order

14 to avoid going there. Do you mean by that, you would choose to stay out

15 on the pista and not go in for your meal?

16 A. Yes, that's right.

17 Q. Approximately, how often did beatings occur on the way to lunch,

18 generally, in the camp? How often was it?

19 A. This happened practically every day during my stay there. Someone

20 was always beaten.

21 Q. Were prisoners interrogated every day that you were on the pista?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were people beaten during those interrogations?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How do you know?

Page 4499

1 A. Well, I know because when they came back, they would say.

2 Q. What were the conditions of some of the prisoners as they returned

3 from interrogations?

4 A. They were practically all beaten up. You could see their bruises;

5 they were black and blue. It was terrible.

6 Q. Did you ever see prisoners carried out from the upper floor after

7 interrogations?

8 A. Yes, I did. My friend was taken out like that.

9 Q. Who are you referring to when say your friend?

10 A. Rizah Hadzalic.

11 Q. Before we talk about Rizah, I want to ask you: With respect to

12 the interrogations in general, would you hear noises coming from that

13 first floor during interrogations, the sounds of beatings or screams?

14 A. Yes, and moans, screams.

15 Q. To the best of your recollection, how often during the time that

16 you were on the pista do you recall these types of beatings and these

17 sounds of beatings occurring during interrogation?

18 A. Well, every day.

19 Q. You referred already to guard shifts and at least one of the shift

20 commanders in the camp. Do you know how many guard shifts there were in

21 Omarska camp?

22 A. There was the shift that was Krkan's; Momo, "Ckalja"; Krle's

23 shift.

24 Q. Do you recall when the shift changes occurred, what time of day,

25 that is?

Page 4500

1 A. I think it was sometime around 6.00 p.m., from 6.00 a.m. to 6.00

2 p.m., thereabouts.

3 Q. So there would be a change in the morning and then one in the

4 early evening?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. And how did they conduct these turnovers? What would you see?

7 A. They would be standing in front of the administration building,

8 the entrance to it. They would stand in line. For example, two or three

9 men would be by the "white house," up there on the roof. There was a

10 machine-gun. And all around us, around the pista, there were three or

11 four of them standing around, and when they would approach the other three

12 men from that other place, would join this first group and the first group

13 would go take their place.

14 Q. So would there be -- the new shift would actually line up in a

15 formation, if you will, in front of the administration building and then

16 change the positions within the camp with the old shift?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And would you see the shift commanders present at these

19 changeovers?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Mr. Brkic, did the beating and mistreatment of prisoners occur on

22 all three of the guard shifts?

23 A. Yes, except that it was easiest to take Momo, "Ckalja's" shift.

24 They were the least strict.

25 Q. And whose shift was considered to be the worst?

Page 4501

1 A. Krkan's.

2 Q. And why was that?

3 A. Well, they beat people most. I would lie face down on my stomach

4 for 16 hours without being able to raise my head at times.

5 Q. Did the prisoners come to learn the names of some of the guards on

6 the various shifts?

7 A. Yes. There were quite a number of people there who were working

8 colleagues. They knew them. They knew the names of those people.

9 Q. Now, you mentioned earlier your friend -- you identified him as

10 Rizah Hadzalic -- was beaten at the time he was taken for interrogation.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you see that yourself?

13 A. I did, yes.

14 Q. And can you describe what happened, please.

15 A. Yes, I can. It was like this: In front of us is the

16 administration building, and there was a bench there at the entrance to

17 that building. And during the time that my friend was beaten up, he

18 started interrogating people ten by ten to speed things up. And on that

19 particular day he was one of those ten people, he and another friend of

20 mine, whose name was Goran Kardumovic. And a soldier came up. I didn't

21 know those soldiers in Omarska, because they were people from the

22 surrounding villages around Omarska, so I didn't actually know them. But

23 he gave my friend a piece of bread and he sat down on the bench to eat

24 it.

25 A guard came up, and I heard tell that his name was Pop, Popovic,

Page 4502

1 actually, but his nickname was Pop. And he said, "Well, bon appetit,"

2 sort of thing. And my friend used not a Muslim but a Bosnian word meaning

3 enjoy your meal, "bujrum." And Serbs and Croats know what that means. It

4 means, well, "Have some yourself," sort of thing, in translation,

5 "bujrum." And Pop said to him, "Who are you saying bujrum to, you

6 motherfucker?" And he took him up from the bench, ordered him to stand up

7 against the wall, and with his three fingers he made him stretch out his

8 legs and the beating began. Those of us who were on the pista were

9 ordered to lie down on our stomachs with our heads down, and we of course

10 obeyed. And this went on for about five minutes, this beating, perhaps

11 ten minutes.

12 They took him up the steps into the administration building where

13 the rooms were located and we heard some terrible noises, like tables and

14 chairs being knocked over. You could hear all this shattering of tables

15 and chairs. And after some time had passed, we heard a voice. It might

16 have been just a couple of minutes, but it seemed like years to us then.

17 I can't say exactly how long it lasted, but the soldier came back and said

18 that he needed two strong men with a blanket.

19 Q. And did two men go in with the blanket?

20 A. Yes. They went off and brought back this friend of mine. They

21 brought him back to the pista and left him lying there. He was about 20

22 metres away from me. He was lying on his back. I heard him cry out for

23 water. He said, "Water, water." But of course nobody dared go up to him

24 and lift him up. We had a bottle of the industrial water from the mine, a

25 bottle of that water, and the doctor turned up, Eso Sadikovic. He

Page 4503

1 examined him and said that his chest was all broken. Well, this all took

2 place in the space of half an hour on the pista, and he breathed his last

3 breath and they took him off in the blanket to behind the "white house."

4 Q. Did you see his body taken away from the camp after that?

5 A. Yes. There was a yellow TAM truck which would be -- we would see

6 going around the compound every day, and it would pick up the bodies that

7 succumbed to the beatings and the maltreatment and they were taken off.

8 That truck was driven by a school friend of mine. We went to school

9 together, although we weren't close friends, so I couldn't really ask him

10 to do anything. But his name was Dragan Pesovic.

11 Q. Mr. Brkic, you mentioned the guard Popovic who you saw beating

12 your friend Rizah Hadzalic. Did you see any other guards take part in

13 that beating as well?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And can you recall the name of those guards?

16 A. Well, the worst man in that shift was that man called Popovic.

17 Then there was Drazenko Predojevic, Paspalj, a man called Paspalj. I

18 didn't know these men from before, as I said, but they were dangerous.

19 Q. Did you know whose shift they were on?

20 A. Yes. It was Krkan's shift.

21 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, I realise it's a few minutes early, but

22 rather than move into a whole other area, might this be a convenient time

23 for the witness?

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Perhaps we should give the

25 witness a break, so let us take a half-hour recess.

Page 4504

1 --- Recess taken at 10.45 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 11.22 a.m.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

4 Mr. Keegan, you can continue, please.

5 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Mr. Brkic, do you know who the commander of the Omarska camp was

7 when you arrived at that camp?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who was that?

10 A. It was Kvocka.

11 Q. How did you know that?

12 A. I learnt that from the other prisoners. I did not know him

13 personally, but I did know that he was married to the sister of a friend

14 of mine named Crnalic. But, as I say, I didn't know him personally.

15 Q. Did you ever see him in the camp?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. How often do you recall seeing him in the camp?

18 A. I would see him in the camp every day until the commanders were

19 changed. He would come every morning. He was wearing a camouflage

20 uniform; he had the pump-propelled type of gun; he had gloves on his hands

21 without fingers. He drove a greyish Mercedes, I think.

22 Q. Now, you referred to seeing him until the commanders in the camp

23 changed. Do you at this time recall approximately when that was during

24 your stay, the approximate date?

25 A. I really don't know.

Page 4505

1 Q. Did you ever see this commander, Kvocka, bring packages to the

2 camp?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Who were these packages for?

5 A. They were packages for people who lived in the Pecani

6 neighbourhood, and I later learnt that he had an apartment in Pecani. So

7 he would receive packages practically every morning; that is to say, Braco

8 Burazerovic would, Ismet Agic would receive them; Aziz, a pastry maker. I

9 was there together with them, and sometimes they would give me some of the

10 food they had received.

11 Q. Did you ever see him bring additional food for prisoners other

12 than those who were from his neighbourhood in Pecani?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did he ever come down and tell the people on the pista they could

15 take more time to eat their lunch or have any food that might be left over

16 from lunch?

17 A. Well, he didn't say that himself. But there were days when the

18 guards said that there were second helpings, and if anybody wanted to go

19 and eat, that they could do so. However, I never went because I knew that

20 there were beatings on a regular basis when people went to get the

21 leftovers of the food. So I never went.

22 Q. My question was: Did you ever see Kvocka come down and tell

23 people they could have any food that was left over?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you ever see him come down and tell the guards not to beat

Page 4506

1 prisoners while they were going to lunch?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did he ever come out to the pista and tell the prisoners on the

4 pista they could get up and move around, go inside the big hangar for

5 shade or go to the grass area by the "white house" to lay down?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did he ever come out and tell prisoners they could go use the

8 water taps to bathe themselves or to refresh themselves with water?

9 A. No, he didn't say that. But we did bathe; we had a hose. I

10 remember one day, they ordered us to take our clothes off on the pista.

11 There was a van standing there, and some girls had been brought in. They

12 were 14, 15, 16 years old. That particular day was a bad day for me,

13 because I myself have an 18-year-old daughter, and I sort of felt myself

14 not to be a man because I didn't like these girls having to look at us, to

15 see four or five naked people lying down on the pista. They would take

16 the fire extinguishing hose and hose us down, and people were not strong

17 but slim and they fell down.

18 When I entered the camp, I was 105 kilos heavy at the time, but I

19 lost 27 kilos during the time I spent in the camp and I left with 78. But

20 I realised that day that for the guards in Omarska, they held the life of

21 a dog more worthy than the life of a man.

22 Q. Do you know who replaced Kvocka as commander of the camp?

23 A. I think that after Kvocka, that duty was performed by Meakic.

24 Q. Was there another commander in the camp whose name you became

25 aware of by the time you left?

Page 4507

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Who was that?

3 A. Drago Prcac, I think that was his name. But I didn't know either

4 Meakic or him, I heard their names from the other prisoners. He was a

5 middle-aged man, between the ages of 50 and 60, perhaps, and I heard from

6 the others that he had a job of some kind in SUP. I don't know which,

7 exactly.

8 Q. Do you ever recall an occasion where Prcac was calling prisoners

9 out at the Omarska camp?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Where were you taken from the Omarska camp?

12 A. From the Omarska camp, I was taken to -- it was on the 7th of

13 August, to Manjaca.

14 Q. When the prisoners were being called out to go to Omarska, what do

15 you recall? What was the situation like? I'm sorry. I meant called out

16 to go to Manjaca. Excuse me.

17 A. It started on the 7th of August, early in the morning, around

18 6.00, perhaps. It was a big confusion, a big mess. People kept running

19 from one room to the other carrying some kind of lists in their hands, and

20 names would be read out of those lists. A lot of people whose names were

21 on the lists were missing, so they couldn't find them. People were being

22 separated; some of them were being sent to the garage, others to the

23 pista. There was a group of people in front of the administration

24 building, and we were waiting for the buses.

25 They had formed some kind of groups. There was the first group,

Page 4508

1 the second one, and the third group. The first two groups were supposed

2 to go to Trnopolje, and the third group was labelled as the worst group.

3 I was in that group and we were supposed to go to Manjaca. Actually, we

4 didn't know that it was Manjaca until we got there. The first two groups

5 knew that they were going to go to Trnopolje. As for the third group, we

6 didn't know where we were being taken to until we actually reached

7 Manjaca, because nobody told us.

8 Q. Now, do you recall who from the camp staff was involved in the

9 calling out of prisoners on that day?

10 A. Almost all of them were there, because there were many prisoners,

11 many detainees, and my personal assessment of the situation was that

12 things were supposed to be carried out as quickly as possible, so they

13 kept running from one building to another, calling people out. And I went

14 to the big building where the garage was, the one that's on the model in

15 front of me.

16 Later on buses arrived and we were being loaded onto the buses,

17 100 or 120 of us per bus. It was the month of August, and it's very hot

18 in Bosnia at that time. The windows were shut and they turned on the

19 heating on the bus. It was perhaps one of the worst days of my stay in

20 the camps, the day of the transport from Omarska to Manjaca.

21 Q. And did guards from Omarska accompany the buses all the way to

22 Manjaca camp?

23 A. Some of the guards were there too, but a kind of special unit had

24 arrived. I don't know what it is called. But they were escorting the

25 buses with their personnel carriers of some sort. And there were also two

Page 4509

1 individuals on each bus. And the 120 of us, we had to leave the first two

2 or three seats empty in the area next to the driver. That area was

3 supposed to be left empty. So that is how we filled up the bus: The

4 first three seats were left empty, as well as the whole area around the

5 driver.

6 Q. Now, Mr. Brkic, the man who you described as Zigic, who you saw in

7 Keraterm camp and again in Omarska camp, would you look around the

8 courtroom and see if that individual is here today.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you point to him and please describe what he's wearing.

11 A. Yes, I can. He is sitting at the first desk, in the middle. He's

12 wearing a suit, a tie, and a pink shirt. We know each other very well. I

13 can't go wrong.

14 MR. KEEGAN: No further questions, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Keegan.

16 Mr. Simic, you were about to organise the order of the

17 cross-examination. What is the result of your consultations?

18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the examination

19 stopped somewhat abruptly, and we will follow the order of the indictment

20 and the counsel will decide for themselves whether they have questions for

21 this witness or not. So I will be the first one to cross-examine the

22 witness.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

24 Mr. Brkic, you are now going to answer questions that will be put

25 to you by the Defence counsel. Mr. Krstan Simic will begin.

Page 4522

1 A. I don't know. At one point I stopped working as a taxi driver,

2 and I don't know when he stopped.

3 Q. Well, do you know how long after you stopped working as a taxi

4 driver he worked as a taxi driver?

5 A. I don't know that.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Stojanovic, I think

7 that we didn't hear the witness answer your question about the make of the

8 car that Mr. Zigic drove at the time. Was that the reason why you rose,

9 Mr. Keegan?

10 MR. KEEGAN: That was, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. So the same question

12 should be asked once again, please, because we didn't hear the answer.

13 The answer about the make of the car driven by Mr. Zigic, it's not in the

14 record. Could you please ask the question again, Mr. Stojanovic.

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. The witness used a

16 slang word which I understood immediately, but maybe it was a problem for

17 the interpreters.

18 Q. So what was the make of the car that was driven by Mr. Zigic at

19 that time?

20 A. It was a PZ-125, a Pezajac.

21 Q. Pezajac, is that an abbreviation, an acronym for something?

22 A. It's a kind of Fiat car.

23 Q. Which was produced where, exactly?

24 A. In Kragujevac.

25 Q. Do you know when you stopped working as a taxi driver yourself?

Page 4523

1 Do you happen to remember?

2 A. I think it was sometime between 1983, 1984. I'm not quite sure.

3 Q. So it was the beginning of the war or prior to the beginning of

4 the war. In 1991 and 1992, did you happen to see Zigic driving a taxi at

5 that time?

6 A. I really can't say. I don't know.

7 Q. When you stopped working as a taxi driver, up until the time you

8 met him in Keraterm, did you happen to see Mr. Zigic around?

9 A. Yes, I did, I saw him around.

10 Q. May we take it that you knew him well?

11 A. Well, I think I did, yes.

12 Q. Can you tell us and the Court whether Zigic, before the war, had a

13 scar on his face of any kind?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did he have this scar while he was working as a taxi driver?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. On which part of his face? Do you happen to know? And we're

18 talking about the period that I mentioned a moment ago, so during that

19 particular period.

20 A. I think it was on the right-hand side of his face.

21 Q. When you met him in Keraterm, did you happen to notice whether

22 Zigic had bandages of any kind on his body, on his legs or arms, or any

23 part of his body? Was it bandaged in any way?

24 A. You mean during the 11 or 12 days that I spent in Keraterm? I

25 think that I saw one of his hands bandaged. I don't know which one

Page 4524

1 particularly, or why.

2 Q. While Zigic was in Keraterm, that is to say, during your -- the

3 time you spent there, what colour was his hair?

4 A. Oh, well, really. Black, dark. What kind -- what other colour.

5 Q. Did he ever dye his hair?

6 A. Well, you must ask him that. I don't know. How should I know

7 whether he dyed his hair or not?

8 Q. Very well. Thank you. You've answered my question.

9 Let us now move on to the incident involving the vehicle and Room

10 2. Can you tell us something about the vehicle? The vehicle that entered

11 with some people -- you mentioned Duca, Zigic, and some

12 others -- who was driving the vehicle that stormed your room?

13 A. I really didn't see.

14 Q. Did you make a statement to the Prosecution with respect to these

15 circumstances on several occasions -- that is to say, one of those

16 statements you gave, I believe, was at the end of 1994; is that correct?

17 It was a written statement. It has your signature at the bottom. Do you

18 remember giving statements, not to mention the contents?

19 A. Yes. Yes.

20 Q. Do you allow for the possibility, then, that on that occasion you

21 stated that that vehicle was driven by Duca? And I can read that

22 statement out to you if you wish me to remind you of that portion of your

23 statement.

24 A. No, you don't have to. I recall it.

25 Q. Can you remember perhaps who brought the wife and child of Fajzo?

Page 4525

1 A. As far as I remember, Saponja and Timarac went off to get them.

2 Q. Thank you. I don't know if this next question of mine will be

3 allowed by the Court or not, but was it your impression whether anybody

4 during that incident with Fajzo Mujkanovic, was anybody able to stand up

5 to Duca? And I'm speaking -- I don't mean the detainees, the prisoners;

6 I'm thinking of the other personnel, the other staff. Were they able to

7 stand up to them?

8 A. Well, I don't know. That's something you'll have to ask them. I

9 don't know what they could or could not have done.

10 Q. Thank you. You testified today about the incident with the

11 individual named Car. Can you tell us approximately when this happened,

12 what date, the day when this man Car was made to run around with a

13 machine-gun?

14 A. No, I'm afraid I can't.

15 Q. Can you tell us the names of some other people who took part in

16 this beating perhaps?

17 A. No.

18 Q. The group that you mentioned of some 10 or 12 individuals, were

19 they called out and beaten even when Zigic was not in Keraterm?

20 A. Yes, yes, they were.

21 Q. I'd like to hear some more details about this. Where were you

22 usually in Room 2, if you had a special place where you would sit or

23 stand? Were you closer to the door or further into the room, if you had a

24 particular spot that you chose.

25 A. Well, there was a wooden pallet on which I lay most often, and

Page 4526

1 there was a sort of metal railing, and I was next to this railing on the

2 pallet.

3 Q. Was that close to the door?

4 A. No. It was in the inner part of the room.

5 Q. Were you able to see everything going on in Room 2, in the room

6 you were in? Were you able to see clearly?

7 A. Well, of course I was, yes.

8 Q. How far were you able to see what was going on in front of your

9 room?

10 A. Sometimes the door would be open and I could see out, but when the

11 door was closed, of course nobody could see anything.

12 Q. This opening and shutting of doors, was there any particular time

13 of day or night when this occurred?

14 A. Well, usually during the daytime the door was open to let the air

15 in, at least one portion of the door. Sometimes both sides of the door

16 would be opened. But towards evening the doors would be closed.

17 Q. You told us that you were in Keraterm until the 11th or 12th of

18 June. Did you happen to see Zigic, during your stay in Keraterm, kill

19 anybody?

20 A. No.

21 Q. You said that you were once offered food. Were you given

22 cigarettes by Zigic?

23 A. Yes, yes. I got a carton of cigarettes from him once.

24 Q. Would Zigic hand out cigarettes to other people as well?

25 A. Yes, yes, he did.

Page 4527

1 Q. Apart from this group of people that you mentioned earlier on and

2 that Mr. Keegan termed "special treatment group," these ten people or so

3 who were treated in another way, what was Zigic's attitude and conduct

4 towards all the others in Keraterm, with the exception of this group of

5 ten, approximately ten individuals? Was his conduct proper and correct or

6 what?

7 A. I came here to speak the truth, and during my stay in Keraterm,

8 there were no major incidents in Keraterm at that time. And my brother

9 was there from day one till the end, so he knows everything that went on

10 there, and he'll be able to tell you about that.

11 Q. Let us now move on to your stay in Omarska. You mentioned an

12 incident in the "white house" with you, Kiki, Began, Asef, Rezak, and so

13 on. You said that you and Zigic were in a room together and that you were

14 joined later on by Kiki, Asef, Began.

15 A. No. It wasn't that Zigic and I were in a room together. Zigic

16 brought me to that room.

17 Q. Yes. Thank you for that correction. Did Zigic bring Kiki along

18 too?

19 A. I didn't see who brought them.

20 Q. Did Kiki come after Zigic's arrival, Zigic who came with you and

21 went into the "white house"?

22 A. I have already said that when I entered the room, Janjic and

23 Beganovic were standing there already, and I stood by the table on which

24 there was a piece of paper and a pencil. And later on Kiki, (redacted), Asef

25 Kapetanovic came in. And along by the wall, Saponja and Timarac were

Page 4528

1 standing there by the wall.

2 Q. Thank you. Let's make things a little clearer if we can. This

3 man Kiki, do you happen to know his name or surname or something which

4 would tell us who this Kiki man was?

5 A. Well, I don't know his name or surname. We knew each other by

6 nickname. But he was a barber in Prijedor. That's how I know him.

7 Q. Thank you. Do you happen to remember the approximate date of when

8 this occurred?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. Can you link it up perhaps to your arrival and set a date on the

11 basis of that?

12 A. Well, it was that same day. I said that I was taken prisoner on

13 the 31st and spent 11 or 12 days there, so it could have been the 12th,

14 13th. That's when it happened.

15 Q. On that particular day, did you happen to see anybody being killed

16 in the "white house"?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Apart from that time, was there any other occasion when you were

19 in the "white house"?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you know someone by the name of Becir Medunjanin?

22 A. No, I did not know him.

23 Q. Did you happen to hear that a man with that name was in Omarska?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you know anything about the fate of that particular individual?

Page 4529

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English

14 and French transcripts

Page 4530

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you give us some details? What was his fate?

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Keegan.

4 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, this is beyond the scope of direct.

5 What this appears to be to me is an attempt to go through every event the

6 person has information about in his statement. If that kind of

7 wide-ranging examination is going to be permitted, I'd be happy to engage

8 in that, which is why we didn't object to the statements being admitted.

9 But I think, based on the Court's ruling before, unless there's a specific

10 basis for going into additional matters, they need to be curtailed.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Judge.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Would you respond, please,

13 Mr. Stojanovic.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we should like to

15 ask the witness a question which has a direct bearing on one of the most

16 serious charges in the indictment against my client. On the other hand,

17 we have an objection to make because, as we have this detailed document,

18 it is up to them to disclose material -- they can disclose material in a

19 positive sense and not to do everything in their power to prevent these

20 materials to be presented before the Trial Chamber. They did indeed hand

21 in a statement in which this witness goes into great detail when he

22 describes something that is a specific count in the indictment. And now

23 the fact that this has been done, they are trying to sidestep it and

24 prevent the Defence team from looking into this very important section and

25 to pass over it.

Page 4531

1 One of the -- in the pages of the witness statement, on page 15,

2 we have a detailed description of what happened in one particular

3 incident, and it is precisely defined in the indictment, to the detriment

4 of Mr. Zigic. And I think that the Prosecution should set the initiative

5 and set forward matters going towards the exculpation of this individual,

6 and not just to try and prevent the Defence in doing so.

7 With your permission, Your Honour, may I read a portion of the

8 written statement given to the Prosecution by this witness?

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, I'm going to

10 give the Prosecutor the opportunity of responding, but you are now making

11 an objection, and that's what we're discussing. And we must discuss this

12 in keeping with the rules and regulations of the Tribunal. I raise this

13 question frequently. I think the Defence forgets that it is within a

14 different system. I do understand the system that you come from,

15 Mr. Stojanovic. I understand full well. But we are now in the process of

16 cross-examining a witness presented by the Prosecutor, and you will be

17 able to bring in your own Defence witnesses. And I know that you are

18 fully aware of the Rules, that is to say, that the cross-examination is

19 prescribed in detail and they have their frameworks and are restricted to

20 the examination-in-chief. We discussed this matter yesterday with respect

21 to supplementary questions. And on the other hand, supplementary

22 questions are also restricted to the cross-examination. That is the

23 Rule.

24 Therefore, we must be capable of adhering to the Rule and

25 functioning within the scope of that Rule. So, Mr. Stojanovic, we do have

Page 4532

1 Rules, and one particular Rule -- and we must abide by that Rule of the

2 civil law system. It is not a Rule of the civil law system, that is to

3 say, but nonetheless we must respect that ruling. And I would like to

4 allow the Prosecutor, Mr. Keegan, to respond.

5 Mr. Keegan, do you have a response at this point?

6 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, it is of course entirely permissible for

7 the Defence to ask questions that weren't directly addressed by the

8 Prosecution if it relates to a question with respect to the testimony of

9 this witness and their ability to observe or relate, or issues of bias,

10 et cetera.

11 There's another issue that comes into question which is the right

12 of the Prosecution to decide which are the most appropriate witnesses to

13 call with respect to particular events, because as I'm sure it's become

14 clear, many of the prisoners can talk about many of the events from

15 different perspectives.

16 Given the Chamber's prior rulings with regard to prior statements,

17 the Prosecution has to decide which of the witnesses who will testify now,

18 nine years after the event, are perhaps the best to reflect the event. If

19 the Defence wants to ask whether or not Mr. Zigic was present or whether

20 this witness saw him present that day, that may be one issue, but to go

21 into a complete examination on the event without a foundation for it is

22 the issue we have. Because if that is the case, Your Honour, then the

23 Prosecution would want to then start using past statements as prior

24 recollections recorded and go right through every event. We were trying

25 to avoid that given the Chamber's guidance to try and speed things along.

Page 4533

1 We are happy to do that.

2 That issue, in essence, has already been raised today by the

3 Defence and used as the statement, and I had already intended to ask some

4 follow-up questions based on this statement, and his recollection when he

5 gave this statement as compared to now. But it's my concern that we're

6 essentially opening a door for which there is no particular foundation

7 being laid, and that's the concern.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, exactly, precisely so,

10 because the Defence objected. The manner of functioning proposed by the

11 Prosecutor will be how we are going to function, and we're going to work

12 here on the basis of what the witness states here in the courtroom.

13 Therefore, Mr. Stojanovic, the examination-in-chief is -- and that

14 is the choice that the parties themselves have made. So, Mr. Stojanovic,

15 would you restrict yourself to the examination-in-chief and what was said

16 there. Let me state again: I think that the ruling of the Tribunal is a

17 little flexible; however, if we abuse that rule, I will take an inflexible

18 stand and the Chamber will take the necessary steps. If necessary, it

19 will react with respect to the material presented by both sides. So I

20 should like to gear things towards a balanced manner and within the

21 framework of the Rules; that is to say, the Prosecutor defines his

22 strategy and presents its witnesses; the Defence has the opportunity of

23 cross-examining the witnesses. But it is also true that the Defence will

24 be able to bring in its own Defence witnesses in time which the Prosecutor

25 will then cross-examine, once again within the restrictions of the

Page 4534

1 examination-in-chief. The Rules are the same for all parties.

2 Therefore, Mr. Stojanovic, you may continue. But please bear in

3 mind and be able to distinguish between the questions you can and cannot

4 ask and whether they have something to do with what the witness has stated

5 here in the courtroom today. If they do not have a bearing on that,

6 Mr. Stojanovic, I'm going to interrupt you systematically and will take

7 further steps as well, might I add. So please go ahead, ask your

8 questions; once again, confine them to the examination-in-chief. Thank

9 you.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I say a few

11 more words on this problem. I think it is in the interests of justice and

12 truth for us to be able to ask the witness --

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon,

14 Mr. Stojanovic. Let me interrupt you again. I have given you guidance,

15 concrete and concise. I said, "Ask your questions." You are now engaging

16 in cross-examination. Do not make allegations. You are here to conduct a

17 cross-examination, to ask the witness questions on the basis of what he

18 has stated in this courtroom during his testimony, during the

19 examination-in-chief, and that is the sole area for which I give you the

20 floor.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have to ask a question at this

22 point. Can I request a ruling by the Trial Chamber with respect to the

23 question?

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I understand, Mr. Stojanovic.

Page 4535

1 You want to -- that is to say, I'm not quite sure that I understand what

2 ruling you're seeking. With respect to what? Which question? Which

3 problem?

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, you said that we could call

5 Defence witnesses. Everybody who can say anything about these occurrences

6 are Prosecution witnesses.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] On the other hand, with your

9 permission, Mr. President, it is not fair that the Prosecution should

10 submit statements and that we're discussing something quite different

11 here. I don't think this leads to a fair trial.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, let me be quite

13 clear. The decision of the Chamber - let me repeat to make it quite

14 clear - the ruling of the Chamber is that you are engaging in the

15 cross-examination of this witness; therefore, your questions must be

16 confined to the realm of the examination-in-chief. That is the clear-cut

17 decision of the Chamber. Therefore, I give you permission to do this. If

18 you have questions of this kind, you may proceed with them, and that is

19 the ruling of the Chamber, Mr. Stojanovic. There are other rules, of

20 course -- if you have other rules, better rules, let's leave them alone

21 for the moment and let's proceed according to the Rule and the ruling.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] May we go into closed session

23 again, please, because I have some more questions with respect to

24 protected witnesses. I request a private session, as we had at the

25 beginning, please.

Page 4543

1 Questioned by the Court:

2 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning. I would like to have some precisions

3 from you, if you are in a position to tell them. How long have you been

4 on the whole in Keraterm camp?

5 A. I believe for about 11 or 12 days.

6 JUDGE RIAD: And then how long after that have you been in

7 Omarska?

8 A. I stayed in Omarska, let's say, from the 12th or the 13th of June

9 until the 7th of August.

10 JUDGE RIAD: That's, I think, enough period for you to see

11 everything. Let us -- starting with Keraterm, you mentioned just an

12 incident in Keraterm, and that's when Duca came with a car to beat Fajzo.

13 Was Duca part of Keraterm camp or did he come from outside? Was he one of

14 the commanders of Keraterm camp?

15 A. As far as I know, he wasn't.

16 JUDGE RIAD: He wasn't. So and what exactly was the position of

17 Zigic in Keraterm camp? Do you know if he was a commander? Was he one of

18 the important persons there or just secondary?

19 A. I really don't know that.

20 JUDGE RIAD: So Duca could not have come, penetrated the room with

21 his car on his own; he needed someone from the camp. He needed the help

22 of somebody from the camp?

23 A. They could enter any of the camps as they pleased. Nobody ever

24 prevented them from doing so.

25 JUDGE RIAD: Even people coming from outside?

Page 4544

1 A. Yes. The Serbs, soldiers.

2 JUDGE RIAD: So why did Duca need Zigic, in your opinion?

3 A. How would I know that?

4 JUDGE RIAD: Good. Then let's go to Omarska. In your

5 observation, general observation, you said "we had commanders," we see

6 that, and you had the shift commanders and the camp commanders. On the

7 whole, did these commanders themselves do the dirty work -- beating,

8 torturing -- or they left it to the other guards?

9 A. During my stay in Omarska, I never saw any of those shift

10 commanders -- Krle, Kvocka, or Krkan -- beat anyone. I mean, I didn't see

11 them personally do that, never.

12 JUDGE RIAD: Well, then let's go to Zigic first. You said that

13 every day he would be there present, he was always present, and he would

14 himself come to call out the prisoners from the room and they would come

15 out -- come back the next day, the next morning, half dead, according to

16 what you said. When he came to collect them, did he come as the boss of

17 the group coming or just one of the guards just coming to do the job?

18 What was his position?

19 A. I really don't know what his position was, Zigic's position in

20 Keraterm at that time, but I already said that he was in Keraterm almost

21 every day. As to the position or function that he had there, I don't

22 know. I don't want to state anything about that.

23 JUDGE RIAD: Of course I know you are not qualified to know the

24 grades, but the way he acted, you were able to watch, to see who Kvocka

25 was and who the others. The way he acted indicated that he was just one

Page 4545

1 of the group or that he has some influence on the group? He was not

2 apparently one of the shift commanders, was he?

3 A. I don't think so. I don't know. I really cannot tell you that.

4 JUDGE RIAD: When he would collect the people from the rooms,

5 would he come as an ordinary person or he came as an authoritative person,

6 the way he acted every day?

7 A. I think that he would come as an ordinary person, but that is my

8 opinion only.

9 JUDGE RIAD: He was not giving orders to the others or telling

10 them what to do?

11 A. No. I never heard that.

12 JUDGE RIAD: And concerning this incident in particular, I think

13 where Popovic was beating Rizah Hadzalic to death, was Krkan there?

14 A. I don't know. I didn't see him.

15 JUDGE RIAD: But it was his shift?

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE RIAD: Now, in general, the shift commanders and the camp

18 commanders were -- had some authority over the guards or was it just chaos

19 and the guards would do anything? During all the period that you stayed,

20 and apparently it was long enough, was the camp a disciplined place, where

21 things were done according to rules?

22 A. When you talk about discipline, do you refer to the detainees or

23 the guards?

24 JUDGE RIAD: I refer to the whole system. Apparently the

25 detainees, apparently they were very disciplined, according to

Page 4546

1 description. But the system itself, the way it was conducted.

2 A. Every single guard in any of the camps could always beat up any

3 detainee he wanted, and it's a fact.

4 JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned that when you were being interrogated,

5 the interrogator apparently ordered that you are not -- said that you are

6 not going to be beaten, you are one of the very few. I don't know. Were

7 you one of the very few who were not beaten or many people were not

8 beaten?

9 A. Well, on that particular day I was lucky because of the

10 interrogator that was interrogating me. I wasn't beaten up on that

11 occasion and I was no longer beaten in Omarska during my stay. However,

12 other people were beaten up almost every day.

13 JUDGE RIAD: So you think it was just mere luck that all this time

14 you were not beaten, or was it an order given that you would be spared,

15 according to your opinion, spared for any reason, because they had nothing

16 against you or because somebody liked you?

17 A. No. I think that on that day, because things happened very fast,

18 I had already been beaten up and I was all black and blue. And maybe the

19 interrogator took pity on me, and maybe that was the reason why I wasn't

20 beaten anymore. Because I didn't really know the man. We didn't know

21 each other. But I fared well at that occasion and I went back to the

22 pista. And others were actually surprised at my not having been beaten,

23 because they said, "No one can ever come back not beaten from that room."

24 JUDGE RIAD: And then all the period after that you were never

25 beaten, as you said; right?

Page 4547

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English

14 and French transcripts

Page 4548

1 A. Yes. Yes.

2 JUDGE RIAD: You don't know why, because all the others were

3 beaten?

4 A. I don't know.

5 JUDGE RIAD: You said you knew Zigic, you knew Zigic from before?

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE RIAD: Were you friends?

8 A. I believe we were friends. I don't know what he thought about it.

9 JUDGE RIAD: Could that be the reason?

10 A. I don't know. It may well have been the reason, under those

11 circumstances and in such a situation.

12 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you mentioned that the shift -- I think the

13 shift of Krkan was the worst shift.

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE RIAD: In your opinion, was it just due to the fact that the

16 guards there were cruel and the guards in the other shifts were better

17 people, or it is the whole -- the fact that some commanders were more

18 strict than others?

19 A. With hindsight, when I think about the things that happened, I

20 think that it was an individual thing, that it depended on the individual

21 guard, because they had great freedom. They could do whatever they

22 pleased. No one could stop them. And I'm not in the position to know,

23 nor is anyone else, what was the subject of their conversations during the

24 changes of the shift, what the commanders told them and things like that.

25 I don't know anything about that and I cannot speak about that.

Page 4549

1 JUDGE RIAD: All right. This is concerning the shift commanders.

2 What about the camp commanders? You said you had Kvocka in the beginning

3 and then you had other commanders, two other -- Meakic and Prcac. Was it

4 the same conditions and atmosphere under each commander, under each big

5 commander, or was --

6 A. Yes, it was always the same. Nothing changed for the better in

7 Omarska. The only thing I can say that Manjaca looked like a five-star

8 hotel to me compared to Omarska when I got there. And that was the place

9 where I felt the safest.

10 JUDGE RIAD: Speaking of the camp commanders, you mentioned that

11 Kvocka would bring parcels to the detainees. The others did not bring

12 parcels to the detainees?

13 A. Yes. There were such -- there were other cases like that. Guards

14 had acquaintances among the detainees and one should be honest and say

15 that they would bring food and clothes from time to time.

16 JUDGE RIAD: But only to their private acquaintances, not

17 generally; is that so?

18 A. Yes. Yes. Only to the persons they knew very well, to their

19 friends, their former neighbours.

20 JUDGE RIAD: And for the others, what did they do?

21 A. Nothing. Some warm water, a piece of cabbage. I lost 27 kilos

22 there. I had no one to bring me food to Omarska.

23 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Brkic, thank you very much for your courage.

24 Thank you.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too, Your Honour.

Page 4550

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge

2 Riad.

3 Madam Judge Wald.

4 JUDGE WALD: I have just two questions, Witness. In the first

5 incident in Keraterm, where you talked about Fajzo Mujkanovic and the

6 vehicle coming into the room, you said that when Duca had put a knife

7 across his throat or cut him and then they suddenly said, "They are

8 coming," and then Duca and Ziga left, do you know who "they" are? Were

9 you able to see who was the they that were coming that made Duca and Ziga

10 run off at that -- or take off at that particular point? Were they

11 regular guards or who? In other words, who were they concerned about

12 coming so that they got up and left?

13 A. I don't know. I too was trying to explain to myself who "they"

14 may have been. Maybe the interrogators. I don't know who the commander

15 of the Keraterm camp was at the time, but it must have been someone from

16 higher up, someone they feared, with their rank.

17 JUDGE WALD: You were not able to see who actually -- you didn't

18 see somebody come right after Duca and Zigic left? You didn't see who it

19 was that came right after?

20 A. No.

21 JUDGE WALD: Okay. My other question was: At the very end, when

22 you were talking about leaving for Manjaca, you said that two groups went

23 to Trnopolje and the group that was -- the English translation said the

24 group that was labelled the worst went to Manjaca. Why do you say the

25 group in which you were was labelled the worst?

Page 4551

1 A. Well, this is what the guards told us, the guards who would bring

2 us cigarettes, biscuits, because people would also buy things, those who

3 had any money. So it was the guards that told us that the third group was

4 the most difficult one.

5 JUDGE WALD: Just so I really understand what you're saying,

6 you're saying that the reason you were in the group that was labelled the

7 worst was because the guards put the label on you; right? Is that right?

8 The guards were the ones who decided that your group was the worst group

9 and so should go to Manjaca?

10 A. Well, I don't know if it was the guards or the interrogators who

11 made that classification. I cannot say exactly who it was who put me in

12 the third group.

13 JUDGE WALD: Do you have any idea of why they would put you in the

14 third group?

15 A. I don't know.

16 JUDGE WALD: All right.

17 A. I had nothing to do with that.

18 JUDGE WALD: All right.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam Judge

20 Wald.

21 I have two questions for you, Witness. You said that Mr. Zigic

22 had a uniform and that he had a bandaged hand. How were you able to see

23 that his hand was bandaged?

24 A. Well, I was. The door was open. I would go out with him. I was

25 able to see.

Page 4552

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] If I understand you correctly,

2 the kind of uniform he wore allowed for his bandaged hand to be seen.

3 A. Yes. I don't know which hand it was, whether it was the right

4 hand or the left hand, but it was bandaged.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. My other question is

6 the following: You have been asked a number of questions by the

7 Prosecution counsel, the Defence counsel, and by the Judges, and you spoke

8 at some length; however, I should like to know whether there is anything

9 that you wish to say that hasn't been asked of you.

10 A. No, I don't have anything to say.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness,

12 Mr. Brkic, for having come here to the Tribunal. We do admire your

13 courage. Let us, in the end, wish you a safe journey home to your place

14 of residence and let us wish you a better future for you and your family.

15 Thank you very much.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Keegan.

19 MR. KEEGAN: I believe it's time for the next break. Before we go

20 into the next break, however, Your Honour, there are two short --

21 hopefully short points that I'd like to raise since I think they may

22 affect the functioning.

23 The first is that as indicated from our prior discussions with

24 respect to the witness lists and the difficulties that have presented

25 themselves of late, based upon the ruling of the Chamber of yesterday with

Page 4553

1 respect to the new witnesses, there is only one further witness for the

2 remainder of this week. It's our estimate that his examination would

3 probably finish certainly by this time tomorrow, and perhaps sooner

4 depending on the amount of cross-examination. We anticipate direct should

5 not take any more than one and a half hours.

6 That being the case, I wanted to advise the Chamber of that in

7 case the Chamber would like to move the Status Conference to the remainder

8 of what would have been a normal session tomorrow, and I simply raise that

9 as an option. The remaining witnesses were witnesses from the new list

10 who we've been directed to bring in the last session. The reason they

11 were called is they were coming from areas which have very -- for which

12 there is not much logistical difficulty in arranging for travel. The

13 other witnesses who would be next on the list come from areas which are

14 extremely difficult and they cannot be moved with any real ease.

15 I do apologise to the Chamber and accept the responsibility for

16 the fact that we may be short witnesses, but all of this was in the

17 context of the changing of how many days we were scheduled for next week,

18 et cetera. We will have a sufficient number of witnesses for next week,

19 beginning on Tuesday, as we've already discussed. So I just wanted to

20 raise the possibility to the Chamber if they'd like to move the Status

21 Conference, or indeed it gives us additional time if we don't finish the

22 Status Conference for some reason today, if you would like to continue

23 from today.

24 The other issue I'd like to raise is I would like the

25 Prosecution's position to be clear with respect to cross-examination. We

Page 4554

1 are certainly not suggesting that the Defence is not entitled to ask

2 relevant questions with respect to not only the direct examination or

3 issues related to the particular witness' credibility, et cetera, but also

4 of course to other witnesses who have testified or, indeed, to specific

5 counts in the indictment with which the accused may be charged, provided

6 that the appropriate foundation can be laid and, indeed, the questions

7 themselves are relevant to those issues.

8 In fact, I believe that counsel for Mr. Zigic did, in fact, elicit

9 what would have been the information he was seeking in the end with his

10 final question as to whether this witness saw Mr. Zigic at a particular

11 time in the camp, or at any other time for that matter.

12 JUDGE WALD: Can I ask you a question about that?

13 MR. KEEGAN: Sure.

14 JUDGE WALD: What do you mean by -- because I was confused

15 somewhat by your initial answer too. What do you mean by "provided a

16 foundation is laid"?

17 Let me give you a specific instance. Suppose on direct

18 examination the witness is asked about incidents 1, 2, and 3. There's an

19 earlier statement which discusses incidents 1, 2, 3, and 4. Now, suppose

20 either you or the Defence counsel, or whoever is cross-examining, thinks

21 that that fourth incident which was not covered in direct is relevant in

22 the sense it throws the accused in a different light. Maybe three

23 incidents suggest he did something wrong but the fourth incident suggests

24 he did something very good and they want to put it. What are you talking

25 about when you say you have to have a foundation?

Page 4555

1 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. I think the issue there, then, is

2 the foundation for that particular aspect has to be laid first.

3 JUDGE WALD: Well, how? By whom?

4 MR. KEEGAN: By the counsel conducting the cross-examination. For

5 example, very simply put, "Were you present when a particular event

6 occurred; yes or no?"

7 JUDGE WALD: Even if that event was not already covered in

8 direct?

9 MR. KEEGAN: Correct. Of course, at that point, obviously, we're

10 now raising the issue of whether there's an objection, but it's the nature

11 of the foundation laid. "Did you see the accused present; yes or no?"

12 Then from there you would know whether there should be further

13 questioning. I was addressing the matter from -- of course, that would be

14 relevant cross-examination. Similar to questions put potentially about

15 another witness, if a sufficient foundation for the basis of the question

16 could be laid.

17 My concern is what's happened here in the past is we've had just

18 open ranging discussions about events not covered in direct. The problem

19 that the Prosecution has, of course, is given the guidance from this

20 Chamber not only with respect to prior statements but also with the

21 mandate to try and conduct the examinations as efficiently as possible, we

22 have to select, sometimes in a rather arbitrary fashion, who's going to

23 testify to --

24 JUDGE WALD: Yes. I don't have any problem with you selecting the

25 witnesses, I understand that. But if you select a witness, once having

Page 4556

1 selected a particular witness, and you ask him only about events 1, 2, and

2 3, and assuming event 4 is relevant to the indictment, it's not completely

3 out of the ballpark --

4 MR. KEEGAN: Of course, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE WALD: -- and the other side thinks that asking him some

6 questions about event 4 even though you didn't do it in direct is arguably

7 relevant to the indictment but you left it out - I'm using this

8 hypothetically - personally because you just assumed maybe he didn't talk

9 about event 4, but he did talk about event 4 in his original statement, if

10 the cross-examiner then asks some questions, like, "Were you there at

11 event 4," even though you didn't cover it and it is relevant to the

12 indictment, you don't suggest that that's outside the scope of the

13 cross-examination, or do you? That's what I want to get clear.

14 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour, depending on what the purpose of it

15 is. If it's simply to recount it and they're not suggesting that there is

16 some purpose for this person's -- and they focus their questions in that

17 way. The reason I say that, Your Honour, is I think perhaps by now it's

18 clear that many prisoners can talk about many, many events --

19 JUDGE WALD: Exactly.

20 MR. KEEGAN: -- based on a wide range of information, and the

21 question is -- for example, the reason I raised the objection in this part

22 is this particular person didn't even know the victim and couldn't -- in

23 fact, in the end would not have been able to say that the person he saw

24 was, indeed, the named victim.

25 JUDGE WALD: Okay. But that's --

Page 4557

1 MR. KEEGAN: But the problem that we have, then, Your Honour, is

2 the redirect is going to involve, in essence, going through the entire

3 event --

4 JUDGE WALD: I know, I know. But in terms of the scope, many of

5 the incidents we deal with have several witnesses to them.

6 MR. KEEGAN: That's true, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE WALD: Some of the witnesses may not give exactly the same

8 account --

9 MR. KEEGAN: I agree.

10 JUDGE WALD: -- and a cross-examiner, be it you or be it the

11 Defence, may well want to show that, indeed, this account is a little

12 different than the prior witness' account, so they want to find out from

13 this particular witness, even though the direct examination didn't cover

14 it, they want to get that out so that later on they can compare it with

15 other accounts.

16 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, we have no difficulty with that in

17 principle. I just want it then understood that the Prosecution would then

18 be able to engage in a full redirect in order to show what may, perhaps,

19 be in fact the most accurate version by going back to the witness in all

20 of his ability to observe and relate what he knew, what he saw, what he

21 was told. I'm simply suggesting that unless a proper foundation can be

22 laid, we are talking about substantially lengthening many, many of these

23 witness sessions.

24 We have no objection to that at all, Your Honour, as has been

25 clear from our non-objection to the attempted admission of a number of the

Page 4558

1 statements. I'm simply saying, based on the guidance of the Chamber, we

2 think at least first there should be perhaps some submission from counsel

3 as to what the purpose of the questioning will be so that we can determine

4 if, in fact, it would be relevant to an issue.

5 JUDGE WALD: Thank you. I appreciate the clarification.

6 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me, Mr. Keegan.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I apologise, Judge Riad, for

8 this interruption. However, let us have control over the proceedings. We

9 were about to make a break. There is a witness waiting for us, and we

10 also have a scheduled Status Conference. Either we're going to continue

11 with this discussion -- but maybe we're all very tired and maybe we all

12 need a break at this point. We also have to think about the interpreters

13 and the witness who is waiting. I'm always concerned about those

14 witnesses who have to wait and leave and then come again.

15 Let me suggest the following: Let us have a break, and let us

16 move this discussion regarding the examination-in-chief and the

17 cross-examination to the Status Conference. Let us discuss it at the

18 Status Conference. We have to bear in mind the witnesses. I do not wish

19 to conduct myself in an authoritative manner, but I should like, really,

20 to suggest a break so that we can organise ourselves better. After the

21 break, we will continue with the hearing, with the debate, or we will

22 decide to discuss the issue during the Status Conference.

23 However, I wish to know, are we going to begin with the

24 examination of our following witness or not, Mr. Keegan?

25 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour, the witness is ready. I was just

Page 4559

1 suggesting that we may finish early tomorrow.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. We are going

3 to have a break now. But maybe we can already decide that this discussion

4 will be the subject of the Status Conference either this afternoon or

5 tomorrow; do you agree with that? So we will proceed with the witness

6 after the break.

7 A half-hour break.

8 --- Recess taken at 1.10 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 1.53 p.m.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can you hear me, Witness?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You are now going to read the

15 solemn declaration handed to you by the usher.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

17 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18 WITNESS: HASE ICIC

19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated. I see that

21 Mr. Piacente is going to examine the witness.

22 And Witness, you shall now be answering questions put to you by

23 the Prosecutor.

24 Mr. Piacente, your witness.

25 MR. PIACENTE: Thank you very much, Your Honour. Before we start,

Page 4560

1 I would list the matters the witness is expected to cover in his

2 testimony.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You have the piece of paper?

4 MR. PIACENTE: Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps you could have it

6 distributed to the parties and to the Judges. That would facilitate

7 matters. I don't have it, speaking for myself.

8 Do the other parties have the document? Yes. So it just seems

9 that the Judges have not yet received a copy.

10 Very well, Mr. Piacente. Please continue. We now have the

11 material in front of us.

12 Mr. Stojanovic, you have the floor.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I should

14 like to inform the Trial Chamber that until three days ago we were not

15 informed that the present witness will be testifying with respect to the

16 circumstances that Mr. Zigic is indicted for. These documents make no

17 mention of the fact that he will be speaking about those facts and

18 circumstances. We can gauge that he will be speaking about counts 1 to 3

19 of the indictment and will be referring to a confidential annex B, where

20 the client, our client, is not mentioned. But we have received fresh

21 material where our client is mentioned, but that was done only three days

22 ago. Therefore, let me say that we do know that this witness will be

23 testifying to the facts related to Mr. Zigic and that this has been

24 brought to our attention recently. That is all.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So what are you in fact asking

Page 4561

1 of us? Are you asking anything of the Chamber or are you just giving us a

2 piece of information?

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I am objecting to certain points

4 according to which the Prosecution will be conducting its

5 examination-in-chief of this witness. I haven't got the enumeration for

6 the points. It is the point with respect to crimes committed

7 by -- allegedly committed by the accused, Mr. Zoran Zigic. There is

8 another point which relates to the injuring of detainees at Keraterm by

9 Zoran Zigic. And finally there is the description of Zoran Zigic and the

10 other accused.

11 We do have a previous document on the identification of Zoran

12 Zigic. That is something which has been brought to our attention. But

13 the results of that identification I don't wish to mention at this

14 particular point.

15 Therefore, we are objecting to that portion of the examination of

16 this witness, in view of the fact that we did not receive the documents on

17 time related to these particular points. In other words, our objection is

18 that the witness should not be questioned on that portion of the

19 document.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Have you finished,

21 Mr. Stojanovic? Is that all you wish to say?

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan, your response.

24 MR. KEEGAN: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. It might be helpful if

25 counsel would identify specifically the disclosure he's referring to that

Page 4562

1 he indicates he only received three days ago. The first disclosure was

2 made with respect to this witness in July of 1999. Matters which related

3 to Mr. Zigic were disclosed on the 8th -- excuse me, the 10th of August,

4 1998, again on the 11th of August of this year, the 3rd of August of this

5 year, the 20th of July of this year. And these are in B/C/S that I'm

6 referring to. The English versions were disclosed earlier than that. So

7 quite frankly, I'm at a loss as to what information he's indicating he

8 only received three days ago, based on our list of our disclosure.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, your response.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The

11 previous documents, yes, we have received them, but I do not see that the

12 incidents are mentioned on which the witness will be -- about which the

13 witness will be testifying today, according to this programme set out by

14 the Prosecutor. Now, the documents that were allegedly sent to us in

15 August -- and my colleague will help me, because we have had some slight

16 rotation -- that is to say, we received them after the 20th of August. I

17 can say that for certain. There were --

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What year? The 20th of August

19 which year? You said the 20th of August. What year?

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Two thousand. That is to say,

21 after the 20th of August. I personally have been in possession of these

22 documents only for the past three days. So I am not -- I don't mind

23 whether they were handed in in B/C/S or English. That is not a problem.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan, we have heard the

25 response, but perhaps you could check the dates. Have you got the

Page 4563

1 receipts from Mr. Stojanovic saying that he did, indeed, receive those

2 documents?

3 MR. KEEGAN: If I could just have one moment, Your Honour.

4 [Prosecution counsel confer]

5 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. We're rechecking the dates here

6 based on the receipts. But, for example, if I understand -- again, he has

7 not identified the particular event. But if I am understanding him

8 correctly, then he's probably referring to a proffer of testimony; that

9 was originally disclosed on the 27th of May of 1999. It was then

10 redisclosed in an unredacted form, that is, with the witness' name and

11 identifying information, on the 28th of July of this year. But the

12 original information was, in fact, disclosed in 1999.

13 Now, if there has been a problem between counsel in terms of

14 turning over material and making themselves aware of it, I'm not sure that

15 the Prosecution should be held responsible for that aspect of the case.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The other question, Mr. Keegan,

17 is to know whether the documents that you sent to the Defence counsel

18 touched upon the points which Mr. Stojanovic is contesting, that is to

19 say, with respect to what relates to Mr. Zoran Zigic.

20 MR. KEEGAN: Again, Your Honour, we have two documents: one dated

21 in July 1999, as I indicated, which refer to incidents alleged to have

22 been committed by the accused Zoran Zigic; we have another dated 19 July

23 2000 which further elaborates. But we have no record of any disclosure

24 three days ago, so I'm at a loss as to exactly what he's referring to.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, and as you can understand,

Page 4564

1 the Chamber finds itself even more lost because it does not know the

2 contents of the document. You said that you sent the documents. The

3 Defence states that it has not received the documents.

4 Where do we stand, Mr. Stojanovic? Where do we stand at this

5 point?

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have the

7 previous document of the 4th of April --

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me one moment.

9 Mr. Stojanovic, excuse me for interrupting you. But which are the

10 documents that you received three days ago? Which are they?

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have a whole heap of documents

12 in front of me. I haven't had time to read them all. But let me say,

13 among other things --

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What documents? What are the

15 documents that you have received?

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] They are documents which, for the

17 first time, this witness is alleging charges against our client. For

18 example, the proffer of the 19th of July, 2000 --

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I am asking you, Mr. Stojanovic,

20 which are the documents so that Mr. Keegan can confirm them. Give us the

21 number, give us a reference number of the document, the date and title, so

22 we can identify the documents and so that Mr. Keegan can know exactly

23 which documents he sent and when he sent them, whether they were sent out

24 three days ago, a week ago, or what.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] May I ask Mr. Keegan -- that is

Page 4565

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English

14 and French transcripts

Page 4566

1 to say, I personally signed for a number of documents myself, and I handed

2 in a signed document as to what we received. Amongst others, we enumerate

3 these particular documents, and that was done this week, if I'm correct,

4 in the course of the week.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Keegan.

6 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour, I've asked the case manager to go

7 obtain the signed receipts that we have. What we have in the courtroom

8 are our copies which were sent and the date we sent them, but the signed

9 receipts are upstairs. She's obtaining those. The proffer of the 19th of

10 the July, 2000, according to our log, was disclosed on the 11th of August

11 of this year; that's the B/C/S version. The English version was disclosed

12 on the 3rd of August, so some 27 days ago.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] May I make a suggestion,

14 gentlemen. But one more point before I do so.

15 Mr. Stojanovic, when did you pinpoint this difficulty which led to

16 your objection? Was it before the witness entered, just before he

17 entered, or prior to that?

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, this week, and I proposed --

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So it was this week that you

20 identified the subject of your objection; is that correct?

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Not only this one point. I said

22 that we received over 1.000 pages over the last ten days of different

23 documents, thousands of pages of different documents.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask the usher to

25 escort the witness out of the courtroom.

Page 4567

1 We do apologise to you, Witness, for calling you here to testify,

2 but we have become involved in another discussion. So if you would now be

3 allowed to be escorted out of the courtroom. We will hear your testimony

4 tomorrow, and I ask for your understanding in that regard.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no problem. Thank you,

6 Your Honour.

7 [The witness stands down]

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask Mr. Stojanovic

9 and Mr. Keegan to settle the matter so that we can know what the documents

10 are. I profoundly regret the fact that you did have the opportunity of

11 informing the Prosecutor before this particular moment and you waited to

12 have the witness brought in to raise your objection.

13 I adjourn the meeting for today and make it incumbent upon you to

14 settle the matter. We'll return at 3.30 for our Status Conference, but

15 we'll adjourn now.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.11 p.m.,

17 to be followed by a Status Conference.