Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4476

1                          Thursday, 31 August 2000

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

 4                          [The accused entered court]

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The accused may be seated.

 6                          [The witness entered court]

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, ladies and

 8    gentlemen; good morning to our technicians, interpreters; good morning,

 9    legal assistants, representatives of the registry; good morning, counsel

10    for the Prosecution; good morning, counsel for the Defence; good morning

11    to the accused.

12            Good morning to you, Mr. Brkic.  Can you hear me?

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Have you had a good rest?

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

16            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You're now going to continue

17    answering questions that will be put to you by Mr. Keegan.

18            Mr. Keegan, you have the floor.

19            MR. KEEGAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20                          WITNESS:  ABDULAH BRKIC [Resumed]

21                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

22                          Examined by Mr. Keegan: [Continued]

23       Q.   Mr. Brkic, when we concluded yesterday, you had testified that the

24    bus you were on had briefly stopped at Keraterm and then continued on to

25    the Omarska camp.  Do you recall that?

Page 4477

 1       A.   Yes.

 2            MR. KEEGAN:  Your Honour, at this time could the witness be shown

 3    Exhibit 1/26, which is a map.

 4            That's fine right there.  Thank you.

 5       Q.   Mr. Brkic, can you take a look at the map that's on the ELMO

 6    there, the projector.

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   And can you pick out, please, the route that the bus you had --

 9    that the bus you were on followed on its way to Omarska.  Did you travel

10    on the main road, the new road, or the old road?

11       A.   We travelled along the new road.

12       Q.   If you can point to it on the projector, please.

13       A.   Yes.  This is Prijedor, Cirkin Polje, Kalada, Gornji Orlovci.

14       Q.   The new road you've been talking about, is that indicated by the

15    red line, or the road that's indicated by a red line on the map there?

16       A.   Yes.  Yes.

17       Q.   Now, the villages which you just mentioned -- Cirkin Polje,

18    Orlovci, Gornji Orlovci -- who lived in those villages?  What ethnic group

19    were the majority in those villages, if you know?

20       A.   They were Serb.

21       Q.   And at the time that you went by those villages on the 30th of

22    May, what condition were they in?

23       A.   They were quite normal, as if nothing had happened.

24       Q.   Did you see any destroyed houses or other buildings?

25       A.   No.

Page 4478

 1       Q.   Now, if you could follow on, and we'll need to move the map along

 2    as we go.  The next villages along that road on the way to Omarska, after

 3    Gornji Orlovci, we can see Kozarusa there.

 4       A.   Yes.  Kozarusa, Kozarac, Kamicani.

 5       Q.   Now, what ethnic group lived in those villages?

 6       A.   They were the Muslim ethnic group.

 7       Q.   And on the 30th of May, what condition were those villages in as

 8    you drove by?

 9       A.   Everything was burning, on fire.  Practically no house stood

10    standing complete.

11       Q.   And if we could move past Kamicani, move the map farther down as

12    we go towards Omarska.  The map will need to come up as well.  Bring it

13    down just a bit.  Down farther.  Bring the map down, please.  There you

14    go.  Thank you.

15            Okay.  We can still see Kozarac just at the top of the map where

16    the fold is.  Now, as you follow down the road, do you see the turnoff for

17    the Omarska village?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Is that the route that the bus took?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Now, as you get to that area, the turnoff for the Omarska village

22    and down to the Omarska village, what was the majority ethnic group that

23    lived in those villages?

24       A.   The Serb ethnic group.

25       Q.   And what was the situation in those villages as you drove by?

Page 4479

 1       A.   Everything was in order, quite normal.

 2       Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Brkic, what happened when the bus arrived at the

 3    Omarska camp?

 4       A.   When the bus arrived at the Omarska camp, we stopped, the driver

 5    got out and the escort did too, and he went off to the administrative

 6    building.  We waited for about half an hour, after which time they came

 7    back, turned the bus on again, switched it on, and we went back to

 8    Keraterm.

 9       Q.   And did the bus follow the same route on the way back?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Now, when your bus arrived again for the second time at Keraterm,

12    what occurred?

13       A.   When we came to Keraterm, a soldier came in.  I don't know --

14    didn't know him.  He asked whether anybody had the keys to the car and

15    that he would look after the car for them, but we all kept quiet.  He went

16    out and said that we too should come out one by one, and when we got out,

17    that we were to line up against the wall, to put our three fingers up

18    against the wall and spread our legs, and each of us -- he gave us a blow,

19    each of us, on the back and took us into a big room.

20       Q.   Now, this soldier that you referred to, how was he dressed?

21       A.   He was wearing a camouflage uniform.

22       Q.   Was he carrying a weapon of any kind?

23       A.   Yes, he was.  An automatic.

24       Q.   Did you recognise that soldier?

25       A.   No.

Page 4480

 1       Q.   Now, you referred to having to be put up against a wall, and you

 2    said, "We were told to put our three fingers up against the wall."  What

 3    do you mean by your three fingers?

 4       A.   On the wall.  Well, I don't know.  That's how we were told to

 5    stand, like that.

 6       Q.   What three fingers are you referring to?  What does that mean?

 7       A.   These three fingers, like this.  That was their form of greeting,

 8    the Serbs.

 9            MR. KEEGAN:  Your Honour, for the record, the gesture the witness

10    referred to involved the thumb and first two fingers of each hand.

11       Q.   Now, after you were searched and beaten by this guard, where were

12    you taken?

13       A.   They took me -- that is to say, at the entrance to the building,

14    there was a smaller room and then a bigger room with a sort of steel door,

15    and they put me in there.  There was concrete on the floor.  There were

16    five or six pallets, nothing else.  Wooden pallets on the floor, nothing

17    else.

18       Q.   Now, you said, "They put me in there."  Were you referring to the

19    bigger room?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   How was that room referred to by the prisoners?  What was it

22    called?

23       A.   Afterwards I heard that they referred to it as Room 2.

24       Q.   How many rooms were there at the Keraterm camp where prisoners

25    were kept that you're aware of?

Page 4481

 1       A.   While I was in Keraterm, there were two rooms.

 2       Q.   How long did you spend in Keraterm camp?

 3       A.   I spent in Keraterm camp from the 30th of May up until the 11th of

 4    June, 11th or 12th of June.

 5       Q.   Now, when you arrived at Keraterm, in addition to the soldier that

 6    you've already spoken about, were there other soldiers in the area?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Did you recognise any of them?

 9       A.   On that first night I didn't recognise anyone.

10       Q.   Now, during the time that you were in Keraterm camp, were

11    prisoners beaten?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Were prisoners killed?

14       A.   No.

15       Q.   That you're aware of.

16       A.   That's right.

17       Q.   While you were there in Keraterm camp, was there a group of

18    prisoners who were beaten more than others?

19       A.   Yes.  It was a group of perhaps 12 people.

20       Q.   How were those people referred to in the way they were treated?

21       A.   Well, I don't know how they were referred to but ...

22       Q.   Did you ever hear the phrase "special treatment"?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   Did you know a prisoner by the name of -- or did you hear of a

25    prisoner by the name of Fajzo Mujkanovic?

Page 4482

 1       A.   I didn't know him but I heard about him on that particular day.

 2       Q.   On that particular day, what occurred involving that prisoner?

 3       A.   It was on the 1st, I think.  The door to the room that I was in

 4    was open and a vehicle stormed in at great speed.  I don't know what type

 5    of vehicle it was; perhaps it was a Mercedes, black in colour; perhaps it

 6    was a BMW.  But anyway, from that bus -- no, from that vehicle, I mean,

 7    Zigic came out, and later on another man whom I didn't know at the time

 8    but later on I learned that he was Duca, Dule Knezevic, and Timarac got

 9    out, Saponja.  Duca asked where Fajzo was.  However, in the room that I

10    was in, they were all people from Puharska and I didn't know Fajzo.  I

11    didn't know who Fajzo was at all.  They asked us to tell them where Fajzo

12    was, and if we didn't tell them, they threatened to kill us all.

13            Then suddenly somebody shouted out that he was in the other room,

14    in Room 1, that Fajzo was there.  So they took him out.  As the door was

15    open, we could watch all this.  We were all huddled in a corner of a room;

16    there were about 100 to 150 of us.  I don't know the exact number.  But we

17    were afraid that they would kill us all with the car.

18            They threw Fajzo down.  Duca took out a knife and made an incision

19    across his neck here.  He demanded that he tell him who had killed his

20    brother.  However, Fajzo cried and screamed and said that it wasn't him,

21    that he didn't know who it was.  Then they brought a woman and a little

22    girl of about four or five.  She might have been four or five.  She was

23    eating some biscuits.  Duca started shouting again and said, "If you don't

24    tell me who killed my brother, I'm going to slaughter your wife and your

25    child."  Then one of the guards said, "They're coming," and they got back

Page 4483

 1    into the car and left.

 2            Fajzo started to crawl on all fours, and instead of going back

 3    into his room, went in Room 2 and laid down by the door.  People came up

 4    to him to help him; they wiped the blood off him and gave him some water

 5    and asked if he wanted anything to eat.

 6       Q.   Now, you indicated that when this car came into the room, in

 7    addition to Knezevic and the others that you mentioned, a man named Zigic

 8    got out.  Did you know this man Zigic from before the war?

 9       A.   Yes, yes.

10       Q.   How did you know this man Zigic?

11       A.   Well, we worked for about four years together in Prijedor.  We

12    were taxi drivers.

13       Q.   After the time that you changed from being a taxi driver to moving

14    on to your next position that you described yesterday, did you continue to

15    see this man Zigic around the Prijedor area?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   How was this man Zigic dressed when you saw him that day in the

18    camp, if you recall?

19       A.   He was wearing the multicoloured, camouflage uniform and a red

20    cap.  He had a pistol, a Scorpio-type pistol.  That's it.

21       Q.   Did you see this man Zigic take part in the beating and

22    maltreatment of that prisoner, Fajzo Mujkanovic?

23       A.   He was standing up above him but was not taking part in it.  He

24    was present but he didn't beat Fajzo.  Duca did that.

25       Q.   Now, you referred earlier to this group of prisoners, about 12,

Page 4484

 1    you said, that were in your room who were beaten more than the others.

 2    Did you ever see this man Zigic take part in the beatings of those

 3    individuals?

 4       A.   Well, it was rather difficult to see that because he would come

 5    frequently.  Not frequently, practically every day he was in Keraterm, and

 6    he would take them out.  Now, whether he personally beat them or not, I

 7    don't know because I didn't see him actually beating them.  But he did

 8    take them out, and they had to sing the Chetnik songs the whole night and

 9    they were maltreated.  When they were brought back in the morning, they

10    were half dead.

11       Q.   Were you aware of a prisoner in the camp who was known as Car?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Are you aware of what happened to that man?

14       A.   I don't know because I left Keraterm, so I don't know what

15    happened to him afterwards.  But I do know that Zigic mistreated him many

16    times in front of the room in which I was placed.  There was a sniper's

17    nest with a sniper on it in front of that room, and Zigic put the gun on

18    him one day and he made him run around with it and sing Chetnik songs,

19    with this machine-gun on his back.

20       Q.   Now, the person with the machine-gun on their back, that was Car,

21    the prisoner?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   What other type of maltreatment was inflicted on that prisoner,

24    Car, and others that you saw?

25       A.   Well, there was all types of maltreatment.  They would beat him so

Page 4485

 1    much that then they would end up by throwing him into a garbage

 2    container.  That's how much they beat him.  Him and another man whom they

 3    called Sengin, and Jasmin Cepic.  They called him Sengin but his name was

 4    Jasmin Cepic, I believe, this other man.

 5       Q.   These other beatings that you're describing, did the man Zigic

 6    take part in those beatings as well?

 7       A.   Well, I've already said that he was in Keraterm almost every day.

 8    Now, I don't know whether he personally beat them.  We couldn't see that

 9    but ...

10       Q.   Was Zigic present when those individuals were called out of the

11    room?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   What condition would the prisoners be in when they came back into

14    the room?

15       A.   Well, they were almost half dead.

16       Q.   Are you aware of an incident that involved broken glass?

17       A.   I don't know which glass you mean.

18       Q.   Are you aware of an incident where prisoners were maltreated by

19    making them sit on broken glass?

20       A.   Yes.  They talked about that when they came back in, that Zigic

21    was there, that there was some glass bottles in the cases and they were

22    broken and that they had to take down their trousers and pants and sit on

23    that.

24       Q.   When you say "they talked about it when they came back," are you

25    referring to the prisoners?

Page 4486

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Do you remember which prisoners were involved in that incident,

 3    who it was that was made to sit on that glass?

 4       A.   Well, I didn't know many people from that group, because they were

 5    mostly people who were from outside Prijedor, outside the town.  I didn't

 6    know them.  And those were my first encounters with those people, so I

 7    couldn't actually tell you their names and say that that was such-and-such

 8    a person, because I didn't know their names.

 9       Q.   How often, as best you can recall, was this group of 12 called out

10    and beaten or otherwise mistreated?

11       A.   I already said that while I was in Keraterm, this took place every

12    night.

13       Q.   And to the best of your recollection, how often was the man Zigic

14    present when those individuals were called out and mistreated?

15       A.   Almost every time.

16       Q.   Did you yourself have any contact with this man Zigic while you

17    were in the camp?

18       A.   Yes, I did one day.  My son brought me some food, and Zigic

19    brought me that food.  That is what my son told me, who was 14 years old

20    at that time.  He said when I -- when he came there, he said, "I will give

21    this food to your dad, but I will kill him as well."  But Zigic never did

22    me any harm.  He never touched me.  And he did bring me that food.

23            After a while, on the same day, he called me out and I went out to

24    where the scales were, where the cargo used to be weighed.  Behind the

25    scales there were five or six soldiers whom I didn't know.  There was a

Page 4487

 1    lot of meat there, a lot of alcohol, maybe three or four bottles of

 2    alcohol.  And he offered me some drink and I told him, "You know I don't

 3    drink."  And then he told me to have something to eat, and I told him that

 4    I -- that he just brought me some food, that I would have enough food to

 5    eat.  And then he said, "Do you remember how often you cursed my Serbian

 6    mother at the railway station?"  And that surprised me a little, because

 7    we used to be on good terms.  And then I asked me [as interpreted], "Do

 8    you remember how many times you cursed my balija mother?"  And then he

 9    said, "I suppose you're not angry with me."  I said, "Well, I'm not

10    angry.  You're the one who mentioned that."  Then I asked him if I can go

11    back to the room and he said I could, and I left.  So that was our

12    conversation.

13       Q.   You indicated that your son brought you some food in Keraterm.

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Did you also receive food on other occasions?

16       A.   Yes, I did.  While I was in Keraterm I used to get food every day.

17       Q.   And who brought the food to the camp for you?

18       A.   Two or three days it was my son who brought me the food, and after

19    that my father.

20       Q.   And to your knowledge did other prisoners receive food from their

21    families?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   During the time that families were being allowed to bring food to

24    the camp, were any problems ever caused as a result of that food being

25    brought in, or any guards ever injured, or did any prisoners ever escape

Page 4488

 1    as a result of that, that you were aware of?

 2       A.   No, not during my stay.

 3       Q.   To your knowledge, there were no security problems caused by

 4    allowing people to bring food to the camp?

 5       A.   I don't know anything about that.  There were no problems during

 6    my stay there.  People would come on a daily basis -- brothers, sisters,

 7    relatives -- and the guards would pick up the food at the gate and then

 8    bring it to the rooms.

 9       Q.   While you were in Keraterm, were any meals provided by the camp

10    personnel or by the camp itself?

11       A.   While I was in Keraterm, there was a truck which brought food from

12    the barracks on one occasion.  I think it brought some pasta and I ate it

13    on that occasion.  But while I was at Keraterm, that was the only such

14    occasion.

15       Q.   When you left the Keraterm camp, how were you called out?

16       A.   They told me to pick up my stuff, but I didn't know -- I didn't

17    have much.  I had been taken away in my T-shirt.  There were about 12 of

18    us, and I think I was the last one in the group.  We approached a van, and

19    Zigic was standing next to the van and he said, "See, Mujahedin."  I

20    entered the van.  They closed the door and took me to Omarska.

21       Q.   Now, to your knowledge, did the practice of allowing families to

22    bring food or supplies to the camp in Keraterm, did that end?

23       A.   Yes, it did.  That is what I heard in Omarska.  I heard that a man

24    had been killed next to the wire fence while he was bringing food to his

25    son, and as a result of that they prohibited such bringing of food.

Page 4489

 1       Q.   What happened when you arrived at Omarska?

 2       A.   I arrived in Omarska about 6.00 p.m.  It was raining -- drizzling,

 3    rather.  They lined us up in front of the restaurant here that I can see

 4    on the model, next to the glass area.  This is where we waited for five or

 5    ten minutes, until a soldier came to pick us up, and he took the 12 of us

 6    in the direction of the "white house."  We got into the "white house" and

 7    we went to the first room on the left-hand side.  We found three

 8    individuals there, and I personally recognised a young man amongst them.

 9    He was the son of one of my acquaintances.  I believe that his name was

10    Halvadzic.  I didn't know the other two.  But later on I learnt that

11    Slavko Ecim was there, together with this other man whose surname was

12    Mesic and who was probably from Cela.

13       Q.   Now, Mr. Brkic, while you were in that first room on the left in

14    the "white house," were you beaten?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Did you recognise the person who beat you?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   And who was that?

19       A.   Duca Knezevic.

20       Q.   And was anybody else with him in the room at the time you were

21    being beaten?

22       A.   Yes.  Duca Knezevic came together with Zoran Zigic.  Sapina was

23    also with them, so was Timarac.  And later on after Zigic had taken me out

24    of the room and took me to a room across the corridor, he gave me a piece

25    of paper and a pencil and he wanted me to write down the name of the SDA

Page 4490

 1    president in Puharska, but at that time I really didn't know --

 2       Q.   I'd like to go back to when you were still in the first room on

 3    the left.  Can you describe what happened while you were in that room?

 4    How were you beaten?

 5       A.   Yes.  As we were being brought into the room, they told us to sit

 6    down against the wall, and we sat down on the floor.  I was the first one

 7    next to the entrance.  The window was open, and five or six of them were

 8    at the window.  They were provoking Slavko Ecim, calling him an Ustasha.

 9    They would come in from time to time and beat him.

10            When the door opened, the first man I saw was Knezevic.  He had a

11    club like this with a metal ball at the end of it.  He didn't say a word,

12    and I immediately received five or six blows to my head.  He was hitting

13    me with his hands, kicking me with his boots.  And at that point Zigic

14    grabbed me by my hand and he took me out and brought me to this other room

15    and asked me to write down the name and the surname of the SDA president

16    in Puharska.

17       Q.   Now, Mr. Brkic, before Zigic took you out of the first room on the

18    left, did you see him involved in beating the other prisoners in that

19    room?

20       A.   No.

21       Q.   What happened when you were taken into that second room on the

22    right and he gave you the piece of paper?

23       A.   When I came into the room, I found two men standing there in one

24    of the corners of the room, and the soldier had his back turned towards me

25    and I didn't know who it was.  As for the other man who was being beaten,

Page 4491

 1    I did know him from before, but at first I couldn't simply recognise him.

 2    After a while I realised it was Beganovic.

 3       Q.   And do you know the soldier who was beating him?  Did you know his

 4    name?

 5       A.   Yes.  When he turned around, I saw him, and I realised it was

 6    Nikica Janjic.

 7       Q.   And after Zigic put you in the room and gave you that piece of

 8    paper, what did he then do, that is, Zigic?  What did he do?

 9       A.   He left the room and I remained standing next to the desk.  Janjic

10    was still beating Beganovic and I stood there thinking what I should write

11    down, because I had no idea.  I didn't know who it was.  And I would have

12    told him if I had known.

13            Then I heard some noise coming from the corridor, and Kiki came to

14   (redacted), who were then

15    badly beaten up by the group led by Duca.  I was still standing there in

16    the room, and then they asked me whether I had written down the name, but

17    I told him I didn't because I didn't know what to write down.

18            At that point Janjic turned around.  He called me a motherfucker.

19    He said, "Why are you lying?  I'm sure you know."  And he grabbed me by my

20    ear and he held a knife like this and he was about to cut my ear off.  I

21    had my back turned to the door, and then I heard a voice, "Brta, is that

22    you?"  But I didn't dare turn around.

23            At that moment the soldier came in.  He took Janjic and pushed him

24    aside, and he said, "Don't touch him."  And he took me out and brought me

25    back to the room where I initially came when I arrived.  It was a young

Page 4492

 1    man from Rasavci who used to work as a waiter at the railway station where

 2    we used to drink coffee while we were waiting for our shift.  I don't know

 3    his name.

 4       Q.   Now, you said the man was a soldier, the one who pulled Janjic off

 5    you --

 6       A.   Yes.  He had a uniform.

 7       Q.   To your knowledge, was he a guard in the camp?

 8       A.   No.  I never saw him again in Omarska.

 9       Q.   Now, during the time that you were in that second room on the

10    right, did you see Janjic, in fact, cut or stab anybody with that knife?

11       A.   Yes.  I don't know which hand it was but he made a cut on

12    Beganovic's hand.

13       Q.   Now, when you say his hand, what part of the hand was it that you

14    recall being cut?

15       A.   On the fist, here.

16       Q.   Okay.  The English translation says "fist."  Where on the hand?

17       A.   In this part here.

18            MR. KEEGAN:  Your Honour, for the record, the witness is

19    indicating the wrist, the joint of the hand and the arm.

20       Q.   When you saw Beganovic in that second room on the right, can you

21    describe what he looked like?

22       A.   Yes.  I've known Beganovic for quite some time.  We grew up

23    together.  He was rather fair; he had a bright complexion.  But at that

24    time he looked like a black man to me.  He was all black and blue, covered

25    in blood.

Page 4493













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Page 4494

 1       Q.   Now, after that soldier, your former colleague, put you back in

 2    the first room on the left, were you then moved to a different room after

 3    that?

 4       A.   Yes.  He took me to the room where I had initially been put up

 5    when I came to Omarska.

 6       Q.   And then were you moved to a different room?

 7       A.   That happened only later on during the change of the shift, when

 8    Duca and others left the camp.

 9       Q.   Why were you moved?

10       A.   Well, I asked the man who had arrived with the next shift - later

11    on I learned that his name was Momo Ckalja - because when he came to the

12    room, he asked us where we were from, who we were, and I told him that we

13    had come from Keraterm and that we were originally from Puharska, so I

14    asked him if he could move us to another room because the situation there

15    was unbearable, because of Slavko Ecim who was continuously being

16    mistreated by the guards who would enter at any moment, and the situation

17    was terrible there.  Then he said, "Let me see.  I have to wait until the

18    change of the shift and then I will come back and see what can be done,"

19    and this is what happened.  He came back, and he moved me to another room

20    which was right across the corridor.  It was the room on the right-hand

21    side, immediately after the entrance to the "white house," and this is

22    where the 12 of us were transferred.

23       Q.   Were you subsequently taken for interrogation while you were in

24    Omarska?

25       A.   Yes, I was.  I spent the night there, but I couldn't really sleep

Page 4495

 1    because of the noise, the beatings inflicted on Slavko Ecim, because the

 2    other room was only a metre or two metres away.

 3            Early the following morning, a soldier came, he was rather

 4    strongly built, and he called my name out and he told me to walk in front

 5    of him, ahead of him.  As I was getting out of the "white house," I saw

 6    people lying down on the so-called pista.  Nobody lifted their head.  When

 7    we entered the administration building, while we were still on the ground

 8    floor, I saw that there was one interrogation room there and this is where

 9    I was taken.  I saw a person in a military uniform there, an SMB uniform.

10    He was tall, blonde, and he had a pistol stuck on his belt.  I didn't know

11    that man.  There was one desk in front of him and another one on the side

12    with a jug of water and a glass.

13            I had my back facing the door and he told me to sit down, and I

14    sat down.  He asked me if I was thirsty and I had a glass of water at that

15    point.  He asked me if I was a smoker; I said I was and he gave me a

16    cigarette.  It was a Kent, I remember.  I lit that cigarette, and then he

17    asked me if there was anything I could tell him about the current

18    situation, about what was going on.  I told him I didn't know anything

19    about it, and he asked me, "Are you a member of any organisation?"  I was

20    a member of only two organisations: one was the fisherman's association

21    and the other one was a football club.  So those were my only two

22    memberships and those were the only membership fees that I paid.  He

23    wanted to know whether I had given any money to any individuals, and I

24    told him I didn't, that I wasn't a rich man, I was just an average citizen

25    and didn't have much money.

Page 4496

 1       Q.   Did you learn where your interrogator was from?

 2       A.   I learned later on that the interrogator who interrogated me was

 3    from Banja Luka.  I didn't know him.  But I must say that he treated me in

 4    a correct manner.  He asked me whether I was married, where my wife and

 5    children were.  They were at home at that time.  He told me he was a

 6    fisherman himself and that he used to come to the Sana River in Prijedor

 7    to fish.

 8            During that conversation, on maybe two or three occasions, the

 9    door would open, the door to the room where we were at the moment.  I

10    didn't know what it meant, what it was all about, but I noticed that he

11    would do like this with his head, and --

12       Q.   Just a moment, please.

13            MR. KEEGAN:  For the record, Your Honour, the witness was shaking

14    his head from side to side when he indicated what gesture the interrogator

15    was making.

16       Q.   Mr. Brkic, did you at that time know what that gesture meant?

17       A.   Well, we understand that gesture as meaning that no help is

18    needed.  It is a kind of negative answer to something.

19       Q.   In the context of that interrogation, what was he telling the

20    person who opened the door?

21       A.   He didn't say anything about that person.  He simply shook his

22    head.

23       Q.   Do you know what he meant by that?  Did you later learn what that

24    meant, when he shook his head "no"?

25       A.   That is what I would learn later on.  When I was taken to the

Page 4497

 1    pista, other people told me that apparently no beatings were necessary,

 2    that no force should be applied.

 3       Q.   After the interrogation, were you taken to get something to eat?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   How were you taken?  Were you escorted?

 6       A.   Yes.  The interrogator called the guard who was standing next to

 7    the room and he told him to take me to the restaurant and that I should be

 8    given some food, something to eat.  He said, "You are going to be

 9    responsible for this man.  No one should harm him."

10            The soldier walked ahead of me and I walked behind him.  There was

11    a corridor there, and on both sides of the corridor, there were soldiers

12    who were holding various objects in their hands.  I was supposed to pass

13    through that corridor in order to reach the dining area with the soldier.

14    He was walking in front of me and he was shaking his head like this, and

15    this is how I went through and was eventually given some beans to eat,

16    which were no longer good, but I was very hungry and I ate it all.

17            The soldier waited for me to finish the meal, and he then took me

18    out to the pista where I was told to lie down on my stomach.

19       Q.   Now, the soldier, you indicated he was shaking his head when you

20    went through that cordon of soldiers in the hallway, going into the

21    restaurant.  What did that indicate to you he was telling those other

22    soldiers when he was shaking his head?  What did that mean?

23       A.   Well, I concluded that I wasn't supposed to be beaten up.

24       Q.   Now, how long did you spend on the pista?

25       A.   I spent 38 days on the pista.

Page 4498

 1       Q.   Were you ever beaten on your way in to get meals during the

 2    remainder of the time that you spent in the camp?

 3       A.   I personally wasn't, but they did beat other people.  We would

 4    receive blows two or three times a week, but I was sort of trying to avoid

 5    those times to go and get my meal.

 6       Q.   How would you avoid the beatings on the way to the meals?

 7       A.   We had to form groups or, rather, columns of 30 people, and I

 8    always tried to be the last one in the column.  We were forced to run

 9    through the corridor, and as the group would start running, I would then

10    turn around and fall down, lie down on my stomach on purpose in order to

11    avoid going there.

12       Q.   You indicated that as the group started running, you would then

13    turn around and fall down and lie down on your stomach on purpose in order

14    to avoid going there.  Do you mean by that, you would choose to stay out

15    on the pista and not go in for your meal?

16       A.   Yes, that's right.

17       Q.   Approximately, how often did beatings occur on the way to lunch,

18    generally, in the camp?  How often was it?

19       A.   This happened practically every day during my stay there.  Someone

20    was always beaten.

21       Q.   Were prisoners interrogated every day that you were on the pista?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Were people beaten during those interrogations?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   How do you know?

Page 4499

 1       A.   Well, I know because when they came back, they would say.

 2       Q.   What were the conditions of some of the prisoners as they returned

 3    from interrogations?

 4       A.   They were practically all beaten up.  You could see their bruises;

 5    they were black and blue.  It was terrible.

 6       Q.   Did you ever see prisoners carried out from the upper floor after

 7    interrogations?

 8       A.   Yes, I did.  My friend was taken out like that.

 9       Q.   Who are you referring to when say your friend?

10       A.   Rizah Hadzalic.

11       Q.   Before we talk about Rizah, I want to ask you:  With respect to

12    the interrogations in general, would you hear noises coming from that

13    first floor during interrogations, the sounds of beatings or screams?

14       A.   Yes, and moans, screams.

15       Q.   To the best of your recollection, how often during the time that

16    you were on the pista do you recall these types of beatings and these

17    sounds of beatings occurring during interrogation?

18       A.   Well, every day.

19       Q.   You referred already to guard shifts and at least one of the shift

20    commanders in the camp.  Do you know how many guard shifts there were in

21    Omarska camp?

22       A.   There was the shift that was Krkan's; Momo, "Ckalja"; Krle's

23    shift.

24       Q.   Do you recall when the shift changes occurred, what time of day,

25    that is?

Page 4500

 1       A.   I think it was sometime around 6.00 p.m., from 6.00 a.m. to 6.00

 2    p.m., thereabouts.

 3       Q.   So there would be a change in the morning and then one in the

 4    early evening?

 5       A.   Yes, that's right.

 6       Q.   And how did they conduct these turnovers?  What would you see?

 7       A.   They would be standing in front of the administration building,

 8    the entrance to it.  They would stand in line.  For example, two or three

 9    men would be by the "white house," up there on the roof.  There was a

10    machine-gun.  And all around us, around the pista, there were three or

11    four of them standing around, and when they would approach the other three

12    men from that other place, would join this first group and the first group

13    would go take their place.

14       Q.   So would there be -- the new shift would actually line up in a

15    formation, if you will, in front of the administration building and then

16    change the positions within the camp with the old shift?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   And would you see the shift commanders present at these

19    changeovers?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Mr. Brkic, did the beating and mistreatment of prisoners occur on

22    all three of the guard shifts?

23       A.   Yes, except that it was easiest to take Momo, "Ckalja's" shift.

24    They were the least strict.

25       Q.   And whose shift was considered to be the worst?

Page 4501

 1       A.   Krkan's.

 2       Q.   And why was that?

 3       A.   Well, they beat people most.  I would lie face down on my stomach

 4    for 16 hours without being able to raise my head at times.

 5       Q.   Did the prisoners come to learn the names of some of the guards on

 6    the various shifts?

 7       A.   Yes.  There were quite a number of people there who were working

 8    colleagues.  They knew them.  They knew the names of those people.

 9       Q.   Now, you mentioned earlier your friend -- you identified him as

10    Rizah Hadzalic -- was beaten at the time he was taken for interrogation.

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Did you see that yourself?

13       A.   I did, yes.

14       Q.   And can you describe what happened, please.

15       A.   Yes, I can.  It was like this:  In front of us is the

16    administration building, and there was a bench there at the entrance to

17    that building.  And during the time that my friend was beaten up, he

18    started interrogating people ten by ten to speed things up.  And on that

19    particular day he was one of those ten people, he and another friend of

20    mine, whose name was Goran Kardumovic.  And a soldier came up.  I didn't

21    know those soldiers in Omarska, because they were people from the

22    surrounding villages around Omarska, so I didn't actually know them.  But

23    he gave my friend a piece of bread and he sat down on the bench to eat

24    it.

25            A guard came up, and I heard tell that his name was Pop, Popovic,

Page 4502

 1    actually, but his nickname was Pop.  And he said, "Well, bon appetit,"

 2    sort of thing.  And my friend used not a Muslim but a Bosnian word meaning

 3    enjoy your meal, "bujrum."  And Serbs and Croats know what that means.  It

 4    means, well, "Have some yourself," sort of thing, in translation,

 5    "bujrum."  And Pop said to him, "Who are you saying bujrum to, you

 6    motherfucker?"  And he took him up from the bench, ordered him to stand up

 7    against the wall, and with his three fingers he made him stretch out his

 8    legs and the beating began.  Those of us who were on the pista were

 9    ordered to lie down on our stomachs with our heads down, and we of course

10    obeyed.  And this went on for about five minutes, this beating, perhaps

11    ten minutes.

12            They took him up the steps into the administration building where

13    the rooms were located and we heard some terrible noises, like tables and

14    chairs being knocked over.  You could hear all this shattering of tables

15    and chairs.  And after some time had passed, we heard a voice.  It might

16    have been just a couple of minutes, but it seemed like years to us then.

17    I can't say exactly how long it lasted, but the soldier came back and said

18    that he needed two strong men with a blanket.

19       Q.   And did two men go in with the blanket?

20       A.   Yes.  They went off and brought back this friend of mine.  They

21    brought him back to the pista and left him lying there.  He was about 20

22    metres away from me.  He was lying on his back.  I heard him cry out for

23    water.  He said, "Water, water."  But of course nobody dared go up to him

24    and lift him up.  We had a bottle of the industrial water from the mine, a

25    bottle of that water, and the doctor turned up, Eso Sadikovic.  He

Page 4503

 1    examined him and said that his chest was all broken.  Well, this all took

 2    place in the space of half an hour on the pista, and he breathed his last

 3    breath and they took him off in the blanket to behind the "white house."

 4       Q.   Did you see his body taken away from the camp after that?

 5       A.   Yes.  There was a yellow TAM truck which would be -- we would see

 6    going around the compound every day, and it would pick up the bodies that

 7    succumbed to the beatings and the maltreatment and they were taken off.

 8    That truck was driven by a school friend of mine.  We went to school

 9    together, although we weren't close friends, so I couldn't really ask him

10    to do anything.  But his name was Dragan Pesovic.

11       Q.   Mr. Brkic, you mentioned the guard Popovic who you saw beating

12    your friend Rizah Hadzalic.  Did you see any other guards take part in

13    that beating as well?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   And can you recall the name of those guards?

16       A.   Well, the worst man in that shift was that man called Popovic.

17    Then there was Drazenko Predojevic, Paspalj, a man called Paspalj.  I

18    didn't know these men from before, as I said, but they were dangerous.

19       Q.   Did you know whose shift they were on?

20       A.   Yes.  It was Krkan's shift.

21            MR. KEEGAN:  Your Honour, I realise it's a few minutes early, but

22    rather than move into a whole other area, might this be a convenient time

23    for the witness?

24            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  Perhaps we should give the

25    witness a break, so let us take a half-hour recess.

Page 4504

 1                          --- Recess taken at 10.45 a.m.

 2                          --- On resuming at 11.22 a.m.

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

 4            Mr. Keegan, you can continue, please.

 5            MR. KEEGAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6       Q.   Mr. Brkic, do you know who the commander of the Omarska camp was

 7    when you arrived at that camp?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Who was that?

10       A.   It was Kvocka.

11       Q.   How did you know that?

12       A.   I learnt that from the other prisoners.  I did not know him

13    personally, but I did know that he was married to the sister of a friend

14    of mine named Crnalic.  But, as I say, I didn't know him personally.

15       Q.   Did you ever see him in the camp?

16       A.   Yes, I did.

17       Q.   How often do you recall seeing him in the camp?

18       A.   I would see him in the camp every day until the commanders were

19    changed.  He would come every morning.  He was wearing a camouflage

20    uniform; he had the pump-propelled type of gun; he had gloves on his hands

21    without fingers.  He drove a greyish Mercedes, I think.

22       Q.   Now, you referred to seeing him until the commanders in the camp

23    changed.  Do you at this time recall approximately when that was during

24    your stay, the approximate date?

25       A.   I really don't know.

Page 4505

 1       Q.   Did you ever see this commander, Kvocka, bring packages to the

 2    camp?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Who were these packages for?

 5       A.   They were packages for people who lived in the Pecani

 6    neighbourhood, and I later learnt that he had an apartment in Pecani.  So

 7    he would receive packages practically every morning; that is to say, Braco

 8    Burazerovic would, Ismet Agic would receive them; Aziz, a pastry maker.  I

 9    was there together with them, and sometimes they would give me some of the

10    food they had received.

11       Q.   Did you ever see him bring additional food for prisoners other

12    than those who were from his neighbourhood in Pecani?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   Did he ever come down and tell the people on the pista they could

15    take more time to eat their lunch or have any food that might be left over

16    from lunch?

17       A.   Well, he didn't say that himself.  But there were days when the

18    guards said that there were second helpings, and if anybody wanted to go

19    and eat, that they could do so.  However, I never went because I knew that

20    there were beatings on a regular basis when people went to get the

21    leftovers of the food.  So I never went.

22       Q.   My question was:  Did you ever see Kvocka come down and tell

23    people they could have any food that was left over?

24       A.   No.

25       Q.   Did you ever see him come down and tell the guards not to beat

Page 4506

 1    prisoners while they were going to lunch?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   Did he ever come out to the pista and tell the prisoners on the

 4    pista they could get up and move around, go inside the big hangar for

 5    shade or go to the grass area by the "white house" to lay down?

 6       A.   No.

 7       Q.   Did he ever come out and tell prisoners they could go use the

 8    water taps to bathe themselves or to refresh themselves with water?

 9       A.   No, he didn't say that.  But we did bathe; we had a hose.  I

10    remember one day, they ordered us to take our clothes off on the pista.

11    There was a van standing there, and some girls had been brought in.  They

12    were 14, 15, 16 years old.  That particular day was a bad day for me,

13    because I myself have an 18-year-old daughter, and I sort of felt myself

14    not to be a man because I didn't like these girls having to look at us, to

15    see four or five naked people lying down on the pista.  They would take

16    the fire extinguishing hose and hose us down, and people were not strong

17    but slim and they fell down.

18            When I entered the camp, I was 105 kilos heavy at the time, but I

19    lost 27 kilos during the time I spent in the camp and I left with 78.  But

20    I realised that day that for the guards in Omarska, they held the life of

21    a dog more worthy than the life of a man.

22       Q.   Do you know who replaced Kvocka as commander of the camp?

23       A.   I think that after Kvocka, that duty was performed by Meakic.

24       Q.   Was there another commander in the camp whose name you became

25    aware of by the time you left?

Page 4507

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Who was that?

 3       A.   Drago Prcac, I think that was his name.  But I didn't know either

 4    Meakic or him, I heard their names from the other prisoners.  He was a

 5    middle-aged man, between the ages of 50 and 60, perhaps, and I heard from

 6    the others that he had a job of some kind in SUP.  I don't know which,

 7    exactly.

 8       Q.   Do you ever recall an occasion where Prcac was calling prisoners

 9    out at the Omarska camp?

10       A.   No.

11       Q.   Where were you taken from the Omarska camp?

12       A.   From the Omarska camp, I was taken to -- it was on the 7th of

13    August, to Manjaca.

14       Q.   When the prisoners were being called out to go to Omarska, what do

15    you recall?  What was the situation like?  I'm sorry.  I meant called out

16    to go to Manjaca.  Excuse me.

17       A.   It started on the 7th of August, early in the morning, around

18    6.00, perhaps.  It was a big confusion, a big mess.  People kept running

19    from one room to the other carrying some kind of lists in their hands, and

20    names would be read out of those lists.  A lot of people whose names were

21    on the lists were missing, so they couldn't find them.  People were being

22    separated; some of them were being sent to the garage, others to the

23    pista.  There was a group of people in front of the administration

24    building, and we were waiting for the buses.

25            They had formed some kind of groups.  There was the first group,

Page 4508

 1    the second one, and the third group.  The first two groups were supposed

 2    to go to Trnopolje, and the third group was labelled as the worst group.

 3    I was in that group and we were supposed to go to Manjaca.  Actually, we

 4    didn't know that it was Manjaca until we got there.  The first two groups

 5    knew that they were going to go to Trnopolje.  As for the third group, we

 6    didn't know where we were being taken to until we actually reached

 7    Manjaca, because nobody told us.

 8       Q.   Now, do you recall who from the camp staff was involved in the

 9    calling out of prisoners on that day?

10       A.   Almost all of them were there, because there were many prisoners,

11    many detainees, and my personal assessment of the situation was that

12    things were supposed to be carried out as quickly as possible, so they

13    kept running from one building to another, calling people out.  And I went

14    to the big building where the garage was, the one that's on the model in

15    front of me.

16            Later on buses arrived and we were being loaded onto the buses,

17    100 or 120 of us per bus.  It was the month of August, and it's very hot

18    in Bosnia at that time.  The windows were shut and they turned on the

19    heating on the bus.  It was perhaps one of the worst days of my stay in

20    the camps, the day of the transport from Omarska to Manjaca.

21       Q.   And did guards from Omarska accompany the buses all the way to

22    Manjaca camp?

23       A.   Some of the guards were there too, but a kind of special unit had

24    arrived.  I don't know what it is called.  But they were escorting the

25    buses with their personnel carriers of some sort.  And there were also two

Page 4509

 1    individuals on each bus.  And the 120 of us, we had to leave the first two

 2    or three seats empty in the area next to the driver.  That area was

 3    supposed to be left empty.  So that is how we filled up the bus:  The

 4    first three seats were left empty, as well as the whole area around the

 5    driver.

 6       Q.   Now, Mr. Brkic, the man who you described as Zigic, who you saw in

 7    Keraterm camp and again in Omarska camp, would you look around the

 8    courtroom and see if that individual is here today.

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Can you point to him and please describe what he's wearing.

11       A.   Yes, I can.  He is sitting at the first desk, in the middle.  He's

12    wearing a suit, a tie, and a pink shirt.  We know each other very well.  I

13    can't go wrong.

14            MR. KEEGAN:  No further questions, Your Honour.

15            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Keegan.

16            Mr. Simic, you were about to organise the order of the

17    cross-examination.  What is the result of your consultations?

18            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the examination

19    stopped somewhat abruptly, and we will follow the order of the indictment

20    and the counsel will decide for themselves whether they have questions for

21    this witness or not.  So I will be the first one to cross-examine the

22    witness.

23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

24            Mr. Brkic, you are now going to answer questions that will be put

25    to you by the Defence counsel.  Mr. Krstan Simic will begin.

Page 4510

 1            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 2            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

 3                          Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

 4       Q.   Good morning, (redacted)

 5       A.   No.  My name is Brkic.

 6       Q.   I'm sorry.  I apologise, Mr. Brkic.  You have heard my name

 7    already.  I'm Krstan Simic and I have a few questions for you concerning

 8    your testimony today.

 9            Let me begin with your arrival in Omarska.  You said you had been

10    loaded onto a van and brought to Omarska.  Who was it who brought you to

11    Omarska on that occasion?

12       A.   I think the driver was Stevo Grahovac.  At least, that's what I

13    could tell from his voice.  I couldn't see his face.  But he was a former

14    policeman in Prijedor.

15       Q.   As you were getting on the van, were you handcuffed?

16       A.   No.  We were transported without handcuffs.

17       Q.   Upon your arrival in Omarska, the vehicle stopped, as you told

18    us.  Did the driver have any documents about your transport?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   What did he do with those documents?

21       A.   He went to the administration building, upstairs, where the

22    interrogators were and where we were interrogated.

23       Q.   Who came to meet you at that point?

24       A.   A soldier did.

25       Q.   Did you know him?

Page 4511













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Page 4512

 1       A.   No.

 2       Q.   Did you -- could you see him very well?

 3       A.   At that moment I wasn't much interested in the way he looked.  I

 4    was minding my own business.

 5       Q.   Could you see him very well or not?

 6       A.   No, I couldn't.

 7       Q.   Did you see him later on in Omarska during your stay at the pista?

 8       A.   You mean the soldier who took me there?  I may have, but I don't

 9    know.  I wasn't interested in him as a person.

10       Q.   Let me go back to your testimony.  You spoke in some detail, but

11    I'm still not clear whether the interrogator was able to order the

12    beatings or not.

13       A.   I think that he could order the beatings, according to his

14    demeanour.

15       Q.   After your interrogation, did the investigator say that you were

16    to be taken to the pista?

17       A.   Yes, he did.

18       Q.   Those orders were carried out?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   By the security personnel?

21       A.   Yes, they were.

22       Q.   Thank you.  If I understood you correctly, you said that you had

23    learned from other prisoners that Mr. Kvocka was the administrator.

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Mr. Keegan asked you whether he issued any orders in order to

Page 4513

 1    prevent certain things.  I would like to know whether you saw Mr. Kvocka

 2    order anyone from the security staff to kill someone.

 3       A.   No, I did not.

 4       Q.   Did you ever see Mr. Kvocka order anyone of the security staff to

 5    beat up or mistreat in any other way other detainees?

 6       A.   No, I did not.

 7       Q.   Did you see Mr. Kvocka call anyone out or take any detainee away?

 8       A.   No, I didn't.

 9       Q.   You indicated that Mr. Kvocka used to bring some parcels.

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   You said that that would take place in the morning hours when he

12    came to work.

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   During that time, during your stay there, did Mr. Kvocka work

15    during the daytime?

16       A.   You mean in the camp?  I would see him when he would bring parcels

17    and distribute them, but I didn't know -- I don't know where he would go

18    after that.  I couldn't see that, whether he went to the administration

19    building or somewhere else.

20       Q.   Thank you.  It follows from what you have just said that during

21    your stay there, except when he would come to work, you didn't see

22    Mr. Kvocka.

23       A.   What do you mean I didn't see Mr. Kvocka?  I would see him in the

24    evening.  He would be there until 6.00, but I don't know where he would go

25    after that.

Page 4514

 1       Q.   But I mean during the day.  Would you see him during the day?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   You spoke about shifts and Mr. Kvocka's shift.  How did you learn

 4    about that shift?

 5       A.   I didn't speak about Mr. Kvocka's shift.  I spoke about shifts in

 6    general, and I didn't talk about Mr. Kvocka and his shift.

 7       Q.   No.  I am talking about the fact that Mr. Kvocka was replaced, I

 8    mean what you learned from other people.

 9       A.   Yes, yes.  I apologise.  I understand what you mean.

10       Q.   How did you learn about that replacement?  From other people?

11       A.   No.  I realised that because Meakic was present there all the

12    time, and everything went through Meakic.  Kvocka was no longer -- at

13    least, I no longer saw him after that in the camp.

14       Q.   So he completely vanished from the Omarska camp?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Did you used to see Meakic in the camp before together with

17    Kvocka?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   From the very beginning?

20       A.   Yes.  He was a short man.  He wore glasses, as far as I can

21    remember.

22       Q.   Did you see him together with Mr. Kvocka on a daily basis almost?

23       A.   Well, I cannot say it was every day.

24       Q.   Was it very often, at least?

25       A.   Yes, you could say that.

Page 4515

 1       Q.   Mr. Keegan asked you about the parcels and whether they were

 2    coming only from Pecani.  Could you tell us how big the area of Pecani

 3    is.

 4       A.   You mean how many --

 5       Q.   Yes.  Approximately how many people live there?

 6       A.   Well, let's say approximately that there are six or seven

 7    apartment blocks, each having four or five floors.  I don't know how many

 8    people can live there.

 9       Q.   Speaking of Mr. Meakic, did he have a driver who would drive him

10    around?

11       A.   I don't know that.  I didn't see.

12       Q.   Could you describe the camouflage uniform worn by Mr. Kvocka?

13       A.   Well, everybody knows what it looks like.  It's a multicoloured

14    kind of uniform.  He had a pump-action rifle.

15       Q.   Is it a police or a military camouflage uniform?

16       A.   I'm not an expert on uniforms.  I cannot claim either way.

17       Q.   But what was the background of the pattern?

18       A.   I believe it was green.

19       Q.   According to the information that we received, you gave a

20    statement at the beginning of November 1994 to the representatives of the

21    Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal.  Do you remember that?

22       A.   Yes, I do.

23       Q.   You spoke at some length about everything on that occasion.  In

24    the Omarska camp, was Kvocka's brother also one of the guards?

25       A.   I already said that I don't know that family, but I heard from

Page 4516

 1    other guards that the man in question was Kvocka's brother.  He had short

 2    cut hair; he was wearing a camouflage uniform and a cap.

 3       Q.   So it was other people who told you that this guard was Kvocka's

 4    brother.

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   And you accepted it at face value.

 7       A.   Yes, I did.

 8       Q.   Did you then see that particular guard until the closing down of

 9    the Omarska camp?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Where was he positioned as a guard?

12       A.   Near the pista.  He was in charge of taking prisoners to the

13    toilet area.

14       Q.   You mentioned at the end the bathing.

15       A.   Yes, I did.

16       Q.   Was Mr. Kvocka present during that incident?

17       A.   I don't remember.

18       Q.   You spoke about several incidents that took place there.  Do you

19    remember whether Mr. Kvocka was present at any of the incidents that you

20    described?

21       A.   No.

22       Q.   Thank you, Witness.  I have no further questions for you.

23            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

24            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Simic.

25            Mr. Nikolic.

Page 4517

 1            MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this Defence team will

 2    not cross-examine the witness, as you can see.

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you very much,

 4    Mr. Nikolic.  I realise that Mr. Fila already knew that it would be his

 5    turn.

 6            Mr. Fila, you have the floor.

 7                          Cross-examined by Mr. Fila:

 8       Q.   Mr. Brkic, my name is Toma Fila.  I'm a lawyer from Belgrade, and

 9    I represent the accused Radic in this case.  Let me first of all thank you

10    for agreeing to testify without protective measures.  I really do admire

11    your courage and your bravery.  I am not going to be very long with my

12    questions.  You have been through a lot of trouble without that.

13       A.   Thank you.

14       Q.   You said that at one point you spent 16 hours lying on the pista

15    during Krkan's shift.

16       A.   I didn't say it was in his shift.  I just said that from time to

17    time I would lie down for 16 hours on the pista.

18       Q.   Yes, I wanted to make that clear because the shifts were 12 hours

19    long.

20            Did you notice how many people there were per shift,

21    approximately?

22       A.   I couldn't tell you the exact number, but there were quite a few

23    of them.

24       Q.   Twenty to 30?  Perhaps, 40?

25       A.   No, sorry, I cannot be specific.  I do not wish to guess.  I want

Page 4518

 1    to tell the truth.

 2       Q.   You mentioned three names as being members of Krkan's shift:

 3    Paspalj, Radovic, Drazenko.  Do you remember any others?

 4       A.   No.  I already said that I didn't know those individuals, and that

 5    was from other detainees that I learned that they were from the area of

 6    the Maric village.  But I do not know those individuals and I do not wish

 7    to speak about them.

 8       Q.   Were they members of Krkan's shift?

 9       A.   Yes, they were.

10       Q.   But you didn't learn the names of the others.

11       A.   Well, I knew some other names but ...

12       Q.   You described a number of incidents, for example, what happened to

13    your colleague.  I know that this is hard for you, but I have to ask a

14    question:  Did he do it on his own or according to anyone's order?

15       A.   I don't know that.  No one was standing next to him when that word

16    was pronounced, "Bujrum."  At that moment, the guard cursed the detainee's

17    mother and jumped at him.

18       Q.   According to what you were able to conclude, when the guards were

19    doing the beatings, were they doing it on their own or was it upon

20    someone's order or instruction?

21       A.   They were beating people at random, on their own.

22       Q.   One final question:  Do you know where what you termed as food was

23    being prepared?

24       A.   No, I don't know.

25       Q.   Because it was not prepared in the restaurant itself.

Page 4519

 1       A.   To be perfectly honest, I wasn't interested in those details.  But

 2    there was a line of people and the food was there, and we were supposed to

 3    take the food from there.

 4            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] This concludes my examination of the

 5    witness.  Thank you very much.

 6            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fila.

 7            Mr. Stojanovic.

 8            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 9                          Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

10       Q.   Mr. Brkic, my name is Slobodan Stojanovic; I am a lawyer from

11    Belgrade.  Together with my colleague, Mr. Tosic, a lawyer from Banja

12    Luka, we represent Mr. Zoran Zigic.  With the permission of this

13    Honourable Chamber, we should be grateful if you could answer several

14    questions that we have for you concerning your examination-in-chief.

15            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] However, before we proceed with

16    the questions, Your Honours, with your permission, I must say that

17    Mr. Keegan did not complete the procedure of identification, because the

18    record does not reflect a positive identification of Mr. Zigic.  We

19    believe that the identification is, indeed, a positive one and that there

20    shouldn't be any dispute regarding that matter.

21            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Are you making an allegation, a

22    statement, Mr. Stojanovic, or ...

23            MR. KEEGAN:  Your Honour --

24            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] There is the mutual interest of

25    both parties for the identification process to be properly completed.

Page 4520

 1            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan.

 2            MR. KEEGAN:  I would ask, Your Honour, for the record to reflect a

 3    positive identification.

 4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then.  Thank you.

 5            Will you please now proceed with your questions, Mr. Stojanovic.

 6            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I will, Your Honours.  Thank

 7    you.  We have a few questions concerning protected witnesses, so I should

 8    like to go into private session for a while, please.

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, I should like to

10    know what the reasons for that are.  You intend to ask questions

11    concerning the identity of certain witnesses?  What are the grounds for

12    this application?

13            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Let me be specific, Your Honour.

14    We should like to ask questions whether certain individuals who have

15    already testified as protected witnesses were somewhere in the area during

16    the relevant events.

17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.  We will go into

18    private session.

19                          [Private session]

20    (redacted)

21    (redacted)

22    (redacted)

23    (redacted)

24    (redacted)

25    (redacted)

Page 4521

 1    (redacted)

 2    (redacted)

 3    (redacted)

 4    (redacted)

 5    (redacted)

 6    (redacted)

 7    (redacted)

 8    (redacted)

 9    (redacted)

10    (redacted)

11                          [Open session]

12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, we are now in

13    public session.  Please continue.

14            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

15       Q.   By way of introduction, Mr. Brkic, you said you know Zoran Zigic

16    very well and that you used to work together as taxi drivers.  Could you

17    tell us what car Zoran Zigic drove as a taxi driver?

18            THE INTERPRETER:  I'm sorry.  We didn't hear the witness' answer.

19            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20       Q.   What was the colour of that vehicle?

21       A.   It was red.

22       Q.   Could you tell us approximately until what time, until what year,

23    Zigic worked as a taxi driver?  I hope we're not going too fast.  Could

24    you situate that period of time in respect of the beginning of the war, if

25    that can be of any assistance?

Page 4522

 1       A.   I don't know.  At one point I stopped working as a taxi driver,

 2    and I don't know when he stopped.

 3       Q.   Well, do you know how long after you stopped working as a taxi

 4    driver he worked as a taxi driver?

 5       A.   I don't know that.

 6            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  Mr. Stojanovic, I think

 7    that we didn't hear the witness answer your question about the make of the

 8    car that Mr. Zigic drove at the time.  Was that the reason why you rose,

 9    Mr. Keegan?

10            MR. KEEGAN:  That was, Your Honour.

11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  So the same question

12    should be asked once again, please, because we didn't hear the answer.

13    The answer about the make of the car driven by Mr. Zigic, it's not in the

14    record.  Could you please ask the question again, Mr. Stojanovic.

15            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  The witness used a

16    slang word which I understood immediately, but maybe it was a problem for

17    the interpreters.

18       Q.   So what was the make of the car that was driven by Mr. Zigic at

19    that time?

20       A.   It was a PZ-125, a Pezajac.

21       Q.   Pezajac, is that an abbreviation, an acronym for something?

22       A.   It's a kind of Fiat car.

23       Q.   Which was produced where, exactly?

24       A.   In Kragujevac.

25       Q.   Do you know when you stopped working as a taxi driver yourself?

Page 4523

 1    Do you happen to remember?

 2       A.   I think it was sometime between 1983, 1984.  I'm not quite sure.

 3       Q.   So it was the beginning of the war or prior to the beginning of

 4    the war.  In 1991 and 1992, did you happen to see Zigic driving a taxi at

 5    that time?

 6       A.   I really can't say.  I don't know.

 7       Q.   When you stopped working as a taxi driver, up until the time you

 8    met him in Keraterm, did you happen to see Mr. Zigic around?

 9       A.   Yes, I did, I saw him around.

10       Q.   May we take it that you knew him well?

11       A.   Well, I think I did, yes.

12       Q.   Can you tell us and the Court whether Zigic, before the war, had a

13    scar on his face of any kind?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Did he have this scar while he was working as a taxi driver?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   On which part of his face?  Do you happen to know?  And we're

18    talking about the period that I mentioned a moment ago, so during that

19    particular period.

20       A.   I think it was on the right-hand side of his face.

21       Q.   When you met him in Keraterm, did you happen to notice whether

22    Zigic had bandages of any kind on his body, on his legs or arms, or any

23    part of his body?  Was it bandaged in any way?

24       A.   You mean during the 11 or 12 days that I spent in Keraterm?  I

25    think that I saw one of his hands bandaged.  I don't know which one

Page 4524

 1    particularly, or why.

 2       Q.   While Zigic was in Keraterm, that is to say, during your -- the

 3    time you spent there, what colour was his hair?

 4       A.   Oh, well, really.  Black, dark.  What kind -- what other colour.

 5       Q.   Did he ever dye his hair?

 6       A.   Well, you must ask him that.  I don't know.  How should I know

 7    whether he dyed his hair or not?

 8       Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  You've answered my question.

 9            Let us now move on to the incident involving the vehicle and Room

10    2.  Can you tell us something about the vehicle?  The vehicle that entered

11    with some people -- you mentioned Duca, Zigic, and some

12    others -- who was driving the vehicle that stormed your room?

13       A.   I really didn't see.

14       Q.   Did you make a statement to the Prosecution with respect to these

15    circumstances on several occasions -- that is to say, one of those

16    statements you gave, I believe, was at the end of 1994; is that correct?

17    It was a written statement.  It has your signature at the bottom.  Do you

18    remember giving statements, not to mention the contents?

19       A.   Yes.  Yes.

20       Q.   Do you allow for the possibility, then, that on that occasion you

21    stated that that vehicle was driven by Duca?  And I can read that

22    statement out to you if you wish me to remind you of that portion of your

23    statement.

24       A.   No, you don't have to.  I recall it.

25       Q.   Can you remember perhaps who brought the wife and child of Fajzo?

Page 4525

 1       A.   As far as I remember, Saponja and Timarac went off to get them.

 2       Q.   Thank you.  I don't know if this next question of mine will be

 3    allowed by the Court or not, but was it your impression whether anybody

 4    during that incident with Fajzo Mujkanovic, was anybody able to stand up

 5    to Duca?  And I'm speaking -- I don't mean the detainees, the prisoners;

 6    I'm thinking of the other personnel, the other staff.  Were they able to

 7    stand up to them?

 8       A.   Well, I don't know.  That's something you'll have to ask them.  I

 9    don't know what they could or could not have done.

10       Q.   Thank you.  You testified today about the incident with the

11    individual named Car.  Can you tell us approximately when this happened,

12    what date, the day when this man Car was made to run around with a

13    machine-gun?

14       A.   No, I'm afraid I can't.

15       Q.   Can you tell us the names of some other people who took part in

16    this beating perhaps?

17       A.   No.

18       Q.   The group that you mentioned of some 10 or 12 individuals, were

19    they called out and beaten even when Zigic was not in Keraterm?

20       A.   Yes, yes, they were.

21       Q.   I'd like to hear some more details about this.  Where were you

22    usually in Room 2, if you had a special place where you would sit or

23    stand?  Were you closer to the door or further into the room, if you had a

24    particular spot that you chose.

25       A.   Well, there was a wooden pallet on which I lay most often, and

Page 4526

 1    there was a sort of metal railing, and I was next to this railing on the

 2    pallet.

 3       Q.   Was that close to the door?

 4       A.   No.  It was in the inner part of the room.

 5       Q.   Were you able to see everything going on in Room 2, in the room

 6    you were in?  Were you able to see clearly?

 7       A.   Well, of course I was, yes.

 8       Q.   How far were you able to see what was going on in front of your

 9    room?

10       A.   Sometimes the door would be open and I could see out, but when the

11    door was closed, of course nobody could see anything.

12       Q.   This opening and shutting of doors, was there any particular time

13    of day or night when this occurred?

14       A.   Well, usually during the daytime the door was open to let the air

15    in, at least one portion of the door.  Sometimes both sides of the door

16    would be opened.  But towards evening the doors would be closed.

17       Q.   You told us that you were in Keraterm until the 11th or 12th of

18    June.  Did you happen to see Zigic, during your stay in Keraterm, kill

19    anybody?

20       A.   No.

21       Q.   You said that you were once offered food.  Were you given

22    cigarettes by Zigic?

23       A.   Yes, yes.  I got a carton of cigarettes from him once.

24       Q.   Would Zigic hand out cigarettes to other people as well?

25       A.   Yes, yes, he did.

Page 4527

 1       Q.   Apart from this group of people that you mentioned earlier on and

 2    that Mr. Keegan termed "special treatment group," these ten people or so

 3    who were treated in another way, what was Zigic's attitude and conduct

 4    towards all the others in Keraterm, with the exception of this group of

 5    ten, approximately ten individuals?  Was his conduct proper and correct or

 6    what?

 7       A.   I came here to speak the truth, and during my stay in Keraterm,

 8    there were no major incidents in Keraterm at that time.  And my brother

 9    was there from day one till the end, so he knows everything that went on

10    there, and he'll be able to tell you about that.

11       Q.   Let us now move on to your stay in Omarska.  You mentioned an

12 incident in the "white house" with you, Kiki, Began, Asef, Rezak, and so

13    on.  You said that you and Zigic were in a room together and that you were

14    joined later on by Kiki, Asef, Began.

15       A.   No.  It wasn't that Zigic and I were in a room together.  Zigic

16    brought me to that room.

17       Q.   Yes.  Thank you for that correction.  Did Zigic bring Kiki along

18    too?

19       A.   I didn't see who brought them.

20       Q.   Did Kiki come after Zigic's arrival, Zigic who came with you and

21    went into the "white house"?

22       A.   I have already said that when I entered the room, Janjic and

23    Beganovic were standing there already, and I stood by the table on which

24  there was a piece of paper and a pencil. And later on Kiki, (redacted), Asef

25    Kapetanovic came in.  And along by the wall, Saponja and Timarac were

Page 4528

 1    standing there by the wall.

 2       Q.   Thank you.  Let's make things a little clearer if we can.  This

 3    man Kiki, do you happen to know his name or surname or something which

 4    would tell us who this Kiki man was?

 5       A.   Well, I don't know his name or surname.  We knew each other by

 6    nickname.  But he was a barber in Prijedor.  That's how I know him.

 7       Q.   Thank you.  Do you happen to remember the approximate date of when

 8    this occurred?

 9       A.   I don't know.

10       Q.   Can you link it up perhaps to your arrival and set a date on the

11    basis of that?

12       A.   Well, it was that same day.  I said that I was taken prisoner on

13    the 31st and spent 11 or 12 days there, so it could have been the 12th,

14    13th.  That's when it happened.

15       Q.   On that particular day, did you happen to see anybody being killed

16    in the "white house"?

17       A.   No.

18       Q.   Apart from that time, was there any other occasion when you were

19    in the "white house"?

20       A.   No.

21       Q.   Did you know someone by the name of Becir Medunjanin?

22       A.   No, I did not know him.

23       Q.   Did you happen to hear that a man with that name was in Omarska?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Do you know anything about the fate of that particular individual?

Page 4529













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Page 4530

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Could you give us some details?  What was his fate?

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Keegan.

 4            MR. KEEGAN:  Your Honour, this is beyond the scope of direct.

 5    What this appears to be to me is an attempt to go through every event the

 6    person has information about in his statement.  If that kind of

 7    wide-ranging examination is going to be permitted, I'd be happy to engage

 8    in that, which is why we didn't object to the statements being admitted.

 9    But I think, based on the Court's ruling before, unless there's a specific

10    basis for going into additional matters, they need to be curtailed.

11            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, Judge.

12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Would you respond, please,

13    Mr. Stojanovic.

14            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we should like to

15    ask the witness a question which has a direct bearing on one of the most

16    serious charges in the indictment against my client.  On the other hand,

17    we have an objection to make because, as we have this detailed document,

18    it is up to them to disclose material -- they can disclose material in a

19    positive sense and not to do everything in their power to prevent these

20    materials to be presented before the Trial Chamber.  They did indeed hand

21    in a statement in which this witness goes into great detail when he

22    describes something that is a specific count in the indictment.  And now

23    the fact that this has been done, they are trying to sidestep it and

24    prevent the Defence team from looking into this very important section and

25    to pass over it.

Page 4531

 1            One of the -- in the pages of the witness statement, on page 15,

 2    we have a detailed description of what happened in one particular

 3    incident, and it is precisely defined in the indictment, to the detriment

 4    of Mr. Zigic.  And I think that the Prosecution should set the initiative

 5    and set forward matters going towards the exculpation of this individual,

 6    and not just to try and prevent the Defence in doing so.

 7            With your permission, Your Honour, may I read a portion of the

 8    written statement given to the Prosecution by this witness?

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, I'm going to

10    give the Prosecutor the opportunity of responding, but you are now making

11    an objection, and that's what we're discussing.  And we must discuss this

12    in keeping with the rules and regulations of the Tribunal.  I raise this

13    question frequently.  I think the Defence forgets that it is within a

14    different system.  I do understand the system that you come from,

15    Mr. Stojanovic.  I understand full well.  But we are now in the process of

16    cross-examining a witness presented by the Prosecutor, and you will be

17    able to bring in your own Defence witnesses.  And I know that you are

18    fully aware of the Rules, that is to say, that the cross-examination is

19    prescribed in detail and they have their frameworks and are restricted to

20    the examination-in-chief.  We discussed this matter yesterday with respect

21    to supplementary questions.  And on the other hand, supplementary

22    questions are also restricted to the cross-examination.  That is the

23    Rule.

24            Therefore, we must be capable of adhering to the Rule and

25    functioning within the scope of that Rule.  So, Mr. Stojanovic, we do have

Page 4532

 1    Rules, and one particular Rule -- and we must abide by that Rule of the

 2    civil law system.  It is not a Rule of the civil law system, that is to

 3    say, but nonetheless we must respect that ruling.  And I would like to

 4    allow the Prosecutor, Mr. Keegan, to respond.

 5            Mr. Keegan, do you have a response at this point?

 6            MR. KEEGAN:  Your Honour, it is of course entirely permissible for

 7    the Defence to ask questions that weren't directly addressed by the

 8    Prosecution if it relates to a question with respect to the testimony of

 9    this witness and their ability to observe or relate, or issues of bias,

10    et cetera.

11            There's another issue that comes into question which is the right

12    of the Prosecution to decide which are the most appropriate witnesses to

13    call with respect to particular events, because as I'm sure it's become

14    clear, many of the prisoners can talk about many of the events from

15    different perspectives.

16            Given the Chamber's prior rulings with regard to prior statements,

17    the Prosecution has to decide which of the witnesses who will testify now,

18    nine years after the event, are perhaps the best to reflect the event.  If

19    the Defence wants to ask whether or not Mr. Zigic was present or whether

20    this witness saw him present that day, that may be one issue, but to go

21    into a complete examination on the event without a foundation for it is

22    the issue we have.  Because if that is the case, Your Honour, then the

23    Prosecution would want to then start using past statements as prior

24    recollections recorded and go right through every event.  We were trying

25    to avoid that given the Chamber's guidance to try and speed things along.

Page 4533

 1    We are happy to do that.

 2            That issue, in essence, has already been raised today by the

 3    Defence and used as the statement, and I had already intended to ask some

 4    follow-up questions based on this statement, and his recollection when he

 5    gave this statement as compared to now.  But it's my concern that we're

 6    essentially opening a door for which there is no particular foundation

 7    being laid, and that's the concern.

 8            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may.

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, exactly, precisely so,

10    because the Defence objected.  The manner of functioning proposed by the

11    Prosecutor will be how we are going to function, and we're going to work

12    here on the basis of what the witness states here in the courtroom.

13            Therefore, Mr. Stojanovic, the examination-in-chief is -- and that

14    is the choice that the parties themselves have made.  So, Mr. Stojanovic,

15    would you restrict yourself to the examination-in-chief and what was said

16    there.  Let me state again:  I think that the ruling of the Tribunal is a

17    little flexible; however, if we abuse that rule, I will take an inflexible

18    stand and the Chamber will take the necessary steps.  If necessary, it

19    will react with respect to the material presented by both sides.  So I

20    should like to gear things towards a balanced manner and within the

21    framework of the Rules; that is to say, the Prosecutor defines his

22    strategy and presents its witnesses; the Defence has the opportunity of

23    cross-examining the witnesses.  But it is also true that the Defence will

24    be able to bring in its own Defence witnesses in time which the Prosecutor

25    will then cross-examine, once again within the restrictions of the

Page 4534

 1    examination-in-chief.  The Rules are the same for all parties.

 2            Therefore, Mr. Stojanovic, you may continue.  But please bear in

 3    mind and be able to distinguish between the questions you can and cannot

 4    ask and whether they have something to do with what the witness has stated

 5    here in the courtroom today.  If they do not have a bearing on that,

 6    Mr. Stojanovic, I'm going to interrupt you systematically and will take

 7    further steps as well, might I add.  So please go ahead, ask your

 8    questions; once again, confine them to the examination-in-chief.  Thank

 9    you.

10            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I say a few

11    more words on this problem.  I think it is in the interests of justice and

12    truth for us to be able to ask the witness --

13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon,

14    Mr. Stojanovic.  Let me interrupt you again.  I have given you guidance,

15    concrete and concise.  I said, "Ask your questions."  You are now engaging

16    in cross-examination.  Do not make allegations.  You are here to conduct a

17    cross-examination, to ask the witness questions on the basis of what he

18    has stated in this courtroom during his testimony, during the

19    examination-in-chief, and that is the sole area for which I give you the

20    floor.

21            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have to ask a question at this

22    point.  Can I request a ruling by the Trial Chamber with respect to the

23    question?

24                          [Trial Chamber confers]

25            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I understand, Mr. Stojanovic.

Page 4535

 1    You want to -- that is to say, I'm not quite sure that I understand what

 2    ruling you're seeking.  With respect to what?  Which question?  Which

 3    problem?

 4            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, you said that we could call

 5    Defence witnesses.  Everybody who can say anything about these occurrences

 6    are Prosecution witnesses.

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic.

 8            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] On the other hand, with your

 9    permission, Mr. President, it is not fair that the Prosecution should

10    submit statements and that we're discussing something quite different

11    here.  I don't think this leads to a fair trial.

12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, let me be quite

13    clear.  The decision of the Chamber - let me repeat to make it quite

14    clear - the ruling of the Chamber is that you are engaging in the

15    cross-examination of this witness; therefore, your questions must be

16    confined to the realm of the examination-in-chief.  That is the clear-cut

17    decision of the Chamber.  Therefore, I give you permission to do this.  If

18    you have questions of this kind, you may proceed with them, and that is

19    the ruling of the Chamber, Mr. Stojanovic.  There are other rules, of

20    course -- if you have other rules, better rules, let's leave them alone

21    for the moment and let's proceed according to the Rule and the ruling.

22            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] May we go into closed session

23    again, please, because I have some more questions with respect to

24    protected witnesses.  I request a private session, as we had at the

25    beginning, please.

Page 4536

 1            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  We're moving into private

 2    session.

 3                          [Private session]

 4    (redacted)

 5    (redacted)

 6    (redacted)

 7    (redacted)

 8    (redacted)

 9    (redacted)

10    (redacted)

11    (redacted)

12    (redacted)

13    (redacted)

14    (redacted)

15    (redacted)

16    (redacted)

17    (redacted)

18    (redacted)

19    (redacted)

20    (redacted)

21    (redacted)

22    (redacted)

23    (redacted)

24    (redacted)

25    (redacted)

Page 4537

 1    (redacted)

 2    (redacted)

 3    (redacted)

 4    (redacted)

 5    (redacted)

 6    (redacted)

 7    (redacted)

 8    (redacted)

 9    (redacted)

10    (redacted)

11                          [Open session]

12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, we are in

13    public session.

14            MR. STOJANOVIC:

15       Q.   During your stay in Omarska, how many times did you see Zigic in

16    Omarska?

17       A.   I saw him on that day when I arrived in Omarska, when he wanted me

18    to write down that thing on the piece of paper.  That was the last time I

19    saw him in Omarska.

20       Q.   My last question for you, Witness:  While you were at Manjaca, do

21    you remember the visit of Vojo Kupresanin?

22       A.   Yes, I do.

23       Q.   What was he?  What kind of office did he hold at the time?

24       A.   How would I know that?  I wasn't interested in that.

25       Q.   Was he a politician of some kind?

Page 4538

 1       A.   He may have been, but I really didn't care about that.

 2       Q.   What did he say about the relations of Serbs and Muslims, if you

 3    remember?

 4       A.   Do you want me to quote?

 5       Q.   Well, yes.

 6       A.   He came into my barn and he said, "You're going to be going home

 7    soon.  This has all been done by Europe to us."

 8       Q.   What circumstances --

 9       A.   I don't remember that.

10            MR. KEEGAN:  Your Honour, for the record, what did that have to do

11    with the scope of direct examination?  We have him go to Manjaca, the fact

12    that he left the camp, and that was it.  It seemed to be a gratuitous

13    statement for some reason.

14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, how do you

15    respond to that objection?  Mr. Stojanovic, you keep forgetting things.

16    One always has to remind you of the regulations.  We have said a number of

17    times what the rules are here in this courtroom, and you keep forgetting

18    them all the time in a systematic manner, Mr. Stojanovic.  Would you

19    please continue with your remaining questions.

20            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no other questions for the

21    witness.  I was acting in good faith, Your Honour.  In this statement, it

22    is stated that Muslims and Serbs were brothers and that a common life was

23    possible.  Thank you.

24            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, please do not

25    continue if you accept the objection.  There's no need to justify

Page 4539

 1    yourself.

 2            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, of course, Your Honour.  I do

 3    accept the objection, and I have no further questions to ask of this

 4    witness.  I should like to thank the Chamber and to thank the witness as

 5    well.

 6            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We thank you too,

 7    Mr. Stojanovic.

 8            Mr. Jovan Simic, do you have any questions for the witness?

 9            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No, we don't, Your Honour.

10            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Simic.

11            Any additional questions, Mr. Keegan?  Please do not forget that

12    they are confined to the cross-examination.

13            MR. KEEGAN:  One question, Your Honour.  Perhaps two.

14                          Re-examined by Mr. Keegan:

15       Q.   Mr. Brkic, you were asked a question about whether, in your

16    opinion, the guards were beating people randomly or they were directed to

17    do that.  How often during your time in the camp were you aware that

18    prisoners were beaten?

19       A.   Every day.

20       Q.   You testified earlier that those beatings occurred both outside on

21    the pista, inside the administration building, and inside the "white

22    house."

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   At any time during your stay did a shift commander or any

25    commander of the camp that you're aware of prevent or order anyone to stop

Page 4540

 1    a beating, that you're aware of?

 2            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

 3       A.   Not that I knew of.

 4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.

 5            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, during the

 6    cross-examination of the witness, nobody ever mentioned this, and the

 7    witness was clear when he said that Mr. Kvocka was never present at any of

 8    the incidents.  Therefore, it is logical that he could not have ordered

 9    them.  My learned colleague here is trying to turn things upside down and

10    to misrepresent the testimony of the witness.  And the previous question

11    had already been answered.

12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan, how do you respond

13    to that?

14            MR. KEEGAN:  Your Honour, I think these questions are directly

15    related to the question asked on cross-examination as to the witness'

16    opinion about the guards with respect to whether they were beating on

17    their own initiative or whether there was some control.  The fact that

18    there were commanders in the camp, we've had plenty of evidence about the

19    role of the commanders; and the fact that beatings occurred every day and

20    were not stopped or prevented in any apparent fashion, we think, would be

21    relevant to the final determination of responsibility, and we think it is

22    directly related to this issue as raised on cross-examination.

23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you wish to reply,

24    Mr. Simic?  The question asked by the Prosecutor had already been asked or

25    not?

Page 4541

 1            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the question asked by

 2    the Prosecutor was:  Did the guards beat people on their own?  And the

 3    answer was yes.  It was a clear question, and now we're coming back to the

 4    same question again.  The initial answer did not leave room for any other

 5    interpretation, and we cannot have any different answer to that question

 6    if the witness is going to continue answering his questions in a truthful

 7    manner.

 8            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan, could you please

 9    rephrase you're question.

10            MR. KEEGAN:  Your Honour, I'll withdraw the question at this

11    time.  I think the record on direct was clear enough.  The question on

12    cross related to the witness' opinion as to whether they were being

13    directed or acting on their own as guards.  We think that a question as to

14    whether shift commanders or commanders ever visibly interfered is relevant

15    to the determination of whether they were acting with permission or acting

16    on their own.

17            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic, is it a new

19    objection?

20            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it is a new objection.

21    Mr. Keegan is putting forward an analysis and conclusion of the testimony

22    of the witness.  He is drawing conclusions about the witness' testimony.

23    It is for you, Your Honours, to decide.

24            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, I think that both

25    parties are using the same principle, that is, that what is contained in

Page 4542

 1    the record is final, and the Chamber will assess the validity of the

 2    testimony.  We have to distinguish between the piece of information that

 3    is supplied by the witness and the conclusions that can be drawn from that

 4    information by the counsel, be it counsel for the Prosecution or counsel

 5    for the Defence.

 6            Let me say one other thing.  The Chamber is very well placed to

 7    make a distinction between such information provided by the witness and

 8    between the witness' opinion.  I just wanted to reassure you.

 9            Mr. Keegan, have you finished?  Mr. Simic, are you satisfied with

10    this answer to your objection?

11            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am satisfied,

12    because I do not have any doubts whatsoever.  However, bearing that very

13    fact in mind, the Prosecutor cannot say we're satisfied with the answer

14    because the witness has said this or that.

15            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.  You are right.

16    None of the counsel are allowed to make such conclusions.  You're right in

17    respect of that.

18            Mr. Keegan, have you finished?

19            MR. KEEGAN:  I have, Your Honour.

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No?  Yes.

21            MR. KEEGAN:  I have finished, Your Honour.

22            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

23            Judge Fouad Riad, do you have any questions for the witness?

24            JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, Mr. President.  Thank

25    you.

Page 4543

 1                          Questioned by the Court:

 2            JUDGE RIAD:  Good morning.  I would like to have some precisions

 3    from you, if you are in a position to tell them.  How long have you been

 4    on the whole in Keraterm camp?

 5       A.   I believe for about 11 or 12 days.

 6            JUDGE RIAD:  And then how long after that have you been in

 7    Omarska?

 8       A.   I stayed in Omarska, let's say, from the 12th or the 13th of June

 9    until the 7th of August.

10            JUDGE RIAD:  That's, I think, enough period for you to see

11    everything.  Let us -- starting with Keraterm, you mentioned just an

12    incident in Keraterm, and that's when Duca came with a car to beat Fajzo.

13    Was Duca part of Keraterm camp or did he come from outside?  Was he one of

14    the commanders of Keraterm camp?

15       A.   As far as I know, he wasn't.

16            JUDGE RIAD:  He wasn't.  So and what exactly was the position of

17    Zigic in Keraterm camp?  Do you know if he was a commander?  Was he one of

18    the important persons there or just secondary?

19       A.   I really don't know that.

20            JUDGE RIAD:  So Duca could not have come, penetrated the room with

21    his car on his own; he needed someone from the camp.  He needed the help

22    of somebody from the camp?

23       A.   They could enter any of the camps as they pleased.  Nobody ever

24    prevented them from doing so.

25            JUDGE RIAD:  Even people coming from outside?

Page 4544

 1       A.   Yes.  The Serbs, soldiers.

 2            JUDGE RIAD:  So why did Duca need Zigic, in your opinion?

 3       A.   How would I know that?

 4            JUDGE RIAD:  Good.  Then let's go to Omarska.  In your

 5    observation, general observation, you said "we had commanders," we see

 6    that, and you had the shift commanders and the camp commanders.  On the

 7    whole, did these commanders themselves do the dirty work -- beating,

 8    torturing -- or they left it to the other guards?

 9       A.   During my stay in Omarska, I never saw any of those shift

10    commanders -- Krle, Kvocka, or Krkan -- beat anyone.  I mean, I didn't see

11    them personally do that, never.

12            JUDGE RIAD:  Well, then let's go to Zigic first.  You said that

13    every day he would be there present, he was always present, and he would

14    himself come to call out the prisoners from the room and they would come

15    out -- come back the next day, the next morning, half dead, according to

16    what you said.  When he came to collect them, did he come as the boss of

17    the group coming or just one of the guards just coming to do the job?

18    What was his position?

19       A.   I really don't know what his position was, Zigic's position in

20    Keraterm at that time, but I already said that he was in Keraterm almost

21    every day.  As to the position or function that he had there, I don't

22    know.  I don't want to state anything about that.

23            JUDGE RIAD:  Of course I know you are not qualified to know the

24    grades, but the way he acted, you were able to watch, to see who Kvocka

25    was and who the others.  The way he acted indicated that he was just one

Page 4545

 1    of the group or that he has some influence on the group?  He was not

 2    apparently one of the shift commanders, was he?

 3       A.   I don't think so.  I don't know.  I really cannot tell you that.

 4            JUDGE RIAD:  When he would collect the people from the rooms,

 5    would he come as an ordinary person or he came as an authoritative person,

 6    the way he acted every day?

 7       A.   I think that he would come as an ordinary person, but that is my

 8    opinion only.

 9            JUDGE RIAD:  He was not giving orders to the others or telling

10    them what to do?

11       A.   No.  I never heard that.

12            JUDGE RIAD:  And concerning this incident in particular, I think

13    where Popovic was beating Rizah Hadzalic to death, was Krkan there?

14       A.   I don't know.  I didn't see him.

15            JUDGE RIAD:  But it was his shift?

16       A.   Yes.

17            JUDGE RIAD:  Now, in general, the shift commanders and the camp

18    commanders were -- had some authority over the guards or was it just chaos

19    and the guards would do anything?  During all the period that you stayed,

20    and apparently it was long enough, was the camp a disciplined place, where

21    things were done according to rules?

22       A.   When you talk about discipline, do you refer to the detainees or

23    the guards?

24            JUDGE RIAD:  I refer to the whole system.  Apparently the

25    detainees, apparently they were very disciplined, according to

Page 4546

 1    description.  But the system itself, the way it was conducted.

 2       A.   Every single guard in any of the camps could always beat up any

 3    detainee he wanted, and it's a fact.

 4            JUDGE RIAD:  You mentioned that when you were being interrogated,

 5    the interrogator apparently ordered that you are not -- said that you are

 6    not going to be beaten, you are one of the very few.  I don't know.  Were

 7    you one of the very few who were not beaten or many people were not

 8    beaten?

 9       A.   Well, on that particular day I was lucky because of the

10    interrogator that was interrogating me.  I wasn't beaten up on that

11    occasion and I was no longer beaten in Omarska during my stay.  However,

12    other people were beaten up almost every day.

13            JUDGE RIAD:  So you think it was just mere luck that all this time

14    you were not beaten, or was it an order given that you would be spared,

15    according to your opinion, spared for any reason, because they had nothing

16    against you or because somebody liked you?

17       A.   No.  I think that on that day, because things happened very fast,

18    I had already been beaten up and I was all black and blue.  And maybe the

19    interrogator took pity on me, and maybe that was the reason why I wasn't

20    beaten anymore.  Because I didn't really know the man.  We didn't know

21    each other.  But I fared well at that occasion and I went back to the

22    pista.  And others were actually surprised at my not having been beaten,

23    because they said, "No one can ever come back not beaten from that room."

24            JUDGE RIAD:  And then all the period after that you were never

25    beaten, as you said; right?

Page 4547













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Page 4548

 1       A.   Yes.  Yes.

 2            JUDGE RIAD:  You don't know why, because all the others were

 3    beaten?

 4       A.   I don't know.

 5            JUDGE RIAD:  You said you knew Zigic, you knew Zigic from before?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7            JUDGE RIAD:  Were you friends?

 8       A.   I believe we were friends.  I don't know what he thought about it.

 9            JUDGE RIAD:  Could that be the reason?

10       A.   I don't know.  It may well have been the reason, under those

11    circumstances and in such a situation.

12            JUDGE RIAD:  Now, you mentioned that the shift -- I think the

13    shift of Krkan was the worst shift.

14       A.   Yes.

15            JUDGE RIAD:  In your opinion, was it just due to the fact that the

16    guards there were cruel and the guards in the other shifts were better

17    people, or it is the whole -- the fact that some commanders were more

18    strict than others?

19       A.   With hindsight, when I think about the things that happened, I

20    think that it was an individual thing, that it depended on the individual

21    guard, because they had great freedom.  They could do whatever they

22    pleased.  No one could stop them.  And I'm not in the position to know,

23    nor is anyone else, what was the subject of their conversations during the

24    changes of the shift, what the commanders told them and things like that.

25    I don't know anything about that and I cannot speak about that.

Page 4549

 1            JUDGE RIAD:  All right.  This is concerning the shift commanders.

 2    What about the camp commanders?  You said you had Kvocka in the beginning

 3    and then you had other commanders, two other -- Meakic and Prcac.  Was it

 4    the same conditions and atmosphere under each commander, under each big

 5    commander, or was --

 6       A.   Yes, it was always the same.  Nothing changed for the better in

 7    Omarska.  The only thing I can say that Manjaca looked like a five-star

 8    hotel to me compared to Omarska when I got there.  And that was the place

 9    where I felt the safest.

10            JUDGE RIAD:  Speaking of the camp commanders, you mentioned that

11    Kvocka would bring parcels to the detainees.  The others did not bring

12    parcels to the detainees?

13       A.   Yes.  There were such -- there were other cases like that.  Guards

14    had acquaintances among the detainees and one should be honest and say

15    that they would bring food and clothes from time to time.

16            JUDGE RIAD:  But only to their private acquaintances, not

17    generally; is that so?

18       A.   Yes.  Yes.  Only to the persons they knew very well, to their

19    friends, their former neighbours.

20            JUDGE RIAD:  And for the others, what did they do?

21       A.   Nothing.  Some warm water, a piece of cabbage.  I lost 27 kilos

22    there.  I had no one to bring me food to Omarska.

23            JUDGE RIAD:  Mr. Brkic, thank you very much for your courage.

24    Thank you.

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too, Your Honour.

Page 4550

 1            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge

 2    Riad.

 3            Madam Judge Wald.

 4            JUDGE WALD:  I have just two questions, Witness.  In the first

 5    incident in Keraterm, where you talked about Fajzo Mujkanovic and the

 6    vehicle coming into the room, you said that when Duca had put a knife

 7    across his throat or cut him and then they suddenly said, "They are

 8    coming," and then Duca and Ziga left, do you know who "they" are?  Were

 9    you able to see who was the they that were coming that made Duca and Ziga

10    run off at that -- or take off at that particular point?  Were they

11    regular guards or who?  In other words, who were they concerned about

12    coming so that they got up and left?

13       A.   I don't know.  I too was trying to explain to myself who "they"

14    may have been.  Maybe the interrogators.  I don't know who the commander

15    of the Keraterm camp was at the time, but it must have been someone from

16    higher up, someone they feared, with their rank.

17            JUDGE WALD:  You were not able to see who actually -- you didn't

18    see somebody come right after Duca and Zigic left?  You didn't see who it

19    was that came right after?

20       A.   No.

21            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  My other question was:  At the very end, when

22    you were talking about leaving for Manjaca, you said that two groups went

23    to Trnopolje and the group that was -- the English translation said the

24    group that was labelled the worst went to Manjaca.  Why do you say the

25    group in which you were was labelled the worst?

Page 4551

 1       A.   Well, this is what the guards told us, the guards who would bring

 2    us cigarettes, biscuits, because people would also buy things, those who

 3    had any money.  So it was the guards that told us that the third group was

 4    the most difficult one.

 5            JUDGE WALD:  Just so I really understand what you're saying,

 6    you're saying that the reason you were in the group that was labelled the

 7    worst was because the guards put the label on you; right?  Is that right?

 8    The guards were the ones who decided that your group was the worst group

 9    and so should go to Manjaca?

10       A.   Well, I don't know if it was the guards or the interrogators who

11    made that classification.  I cannot say exactly who it was who put me in

12    the third group.

13            JUDGE WALD:  Do you have any idea of why they would put you in the

14    third group?

15       A.   I don't know.

16            JUDGE WALD:  All right.

17       A.   I had nothing to do with that.

18            JUDGE WALD:  All right.

19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam Judge

20    Wald.

21            I have two questions for you, Witness.  You said that Mr. Zigic

22    had a uniform and that he had a bandaged hand.  How were you able to see

23    that his hand was bandaged?

24       A.   Well, I was.  The door was open.  I would go out with him.  I was

25    able to see.

Page 4552

 1            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] If I understand you correctly,

 2    the kind of uniform he wore allowed for his bandaged hand to be seen.

 3       A.   Yes.  I don't know which hand it was, whether it was the right

 4    hand or the left hand, but it was bandaged.

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.  My other question is

 6    the following:  You have been asked a number of questions by the

 7    Prosecution counsel, the Defence counsel, and by the Judges, and you spoke

 8    at some length; however, I should like to know whether there is anything

 9    that you wish to say that hasn't been asked of you.

10       A.   No, I don't have anything to say.

11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness,

12    Mr. Brkic, for having come here to the Tribunal.  We do admire your

13    courage.  Let us, in the end, wish you a safe journey home to your place

14    of residence and let us wish you a better future for you and your family.

15    Thank you very much.

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

17                          [The witness withdrew]

18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Keegan.

19            MR. KEEGAN:  I believe it's time for the next break.  Before we go

20    into the next break, however, Your Honour, there are two short --

21    hopefully short points that I'd like to raise since I think they may

22    affect the functioning.

23            The first is that as indicated from our prior discussions with

24    respect to the witness lists and the difficulties that have presented

25    themselves of late, based upon the ruling of the Chamber of yesterday with

Page 4553

 1    respect to the new witnesses, there is only one further witness for the

 2    remainder of this week.  It's our estimate that his examination would

 3    probably finish certainly by this time tomorrow, and perhaps sooner

 4    depending on the amount of cross-examination.  We anticipate direct should

 5    not take any more than one and a half hours.

 6            That being the case, I wanted to advise the Chamber of that in

 7    case the Chamber would like to move the Status Conference to the remainder

 8    of what would have been a normal session tomorrow, and I simply raise that

 9    as an option.  The remaining witnesses were witnesses from the new list

10    who we've been directed to bring in the last session.  The reason they

11    were called is they were coming from areas which have very -- for which

12    there is not much logistical difficulty in arranging for travel.  The

13    other witnesses who would be next on the list come from areas which are

14    extremely difficult and they cannot be moved with any real ease.

15            I do apologise to the Chamber and accept the responsibility for

16    the fact that we may be short witnesses, but all of this was in the

17    context of the changing of how many days we were scheduled for next week,

18    et cetera.  We will have a sufficient number of witnesses for next week,

19    beginning on Tuesday, as we've already discussed.  So I just wanted to

20    raise the possibility to the Chamber if they'd like to move the Status

21    Conference, or indeed it gives us additional time if we don't finish the

22    Status Conference for some reason today, if you would like to continue

23    from today.

24            The other issue I'd like to raise is I would like the

25    Prosecution's position to be clear with respect to cross-examination.  We

Page 4554

 1    are certainly not suggesting that the Defence is not entitled to ask

 2    relevant questions with respect to not only the direct examination or

 3    issues related to the particular witness' credibility, et cetera, but also

 4    of course to other witnesses who have testified or, indeed, to specific

 5    counts in the indictment with which the accused may be charged, provided

 6    that the appropriate foundation can be laid and, indeed, the questions

 7    themselves are relevant to those issues.

 8            In fact, I believe that counsel for Mr. Zigic did, in fact, elicit

 9    what would have been the information he was seeking in the end with his

10    final question as to whether this witness saw Mr. Zigic at a particular

11    time in the camp, or at any other time for that matter.

12            JUDGE WALD:  Can I ask you a question about that?

13            MR. KEEGAN:  Sure.

14            JUDGE WALD:  What do you mean by -- because I was confused

15    somewhat by your initial answer too.  What do you mean by "provided a

16    foundation is laid"?

17            Let me give you a specific instance.  Suppose on direct

18    examination the witness is asked about incidents 1, 2, and 3.  There's an

19    earlier statement which discusses incidents 1, 2, 3, and 4.  Now, suppose

20    either you or the Defence counsel, or whoever is cross-examining, thinks

21    that that fourth incident which was not covered in direct is relevant in

22    the sense it throws the accused in a different light.  Maybe three

23    incidents suggest he did something wrong but the fourth incident suggests

24    he did something very good and they want to put it.  What are you talking

25    about when you say you have to have a foundation?

Page 4555

 1            MR. KEEGAN:  Yes, Your Honour.  I think the issue there, then, is

 2    the foundation for that particular aspect has to be laid first.

 3            JUDGE WALD:  Well, how?  By whom?

 4            MR. KEEGAN:  By the counsel conducting the cross-examination.  For

 5    example, very simply put, "Were you present when a particular event

 6    occurred; yes or no?"

 7            JUDGE WALD:  Even if that event was not already covered in

 8    direct?

 9            MR. KEEGAN:  Correct.  Of course, at that point, obviously, we're

10    now raising the issue of whether there's an objection, but it's the nature

11    of the foundation laid.  "Did you see the accused present; yes or no?"

12    Then from there you would know whether there should be further

13    questioning.  I was addressing the matter from -- of course, that would be

14    relevant cross-examination.  Similar to questions put potentially about

15    another witness, if a sufficient foundation for the basis of the question

16    could be laid.

17            My concern is what's happened here in the past is we've had just

18    open ranging discussions about events not covered in direct.  The problem

19    that the Prosecution has, of course, is given the guidance from this

20    Chamber not only with respect to prior statements but also with the

21    mandate to try and conduct the examinations as efficiently as possible, we

22    have to select, sometimes in a rather arbitrary fashion, who's going to

23    testify to --

24            JUDGE WALD:  Yes.  I don't have any problem with you selecting the

25    witnesses, I understand that.  But if you select a witness, once having

Page 4556

 1    selected a particular witness, and you ask him only about events 1, 2, and

 2    3, and assuming event 4 is relevant to the indictment, it's not completely

 3    out of the ballpark --

 4            MR. KEEGAN:  Of course, Your Honour.

 5            JUDGE WALD:  -- and the other side thinks that asking him some

 6    questions about event 4 even though you didn't do it in direct is arguably

 7    relevant to the indictment but you left it out - I'm using this

 8    hypothetically - personally because you just assumed maybe he didn't talk

 9    about event 4, but he did talk about event 4 in his original statement, if

10    the cross-examiner then asks some questions, like, "Were you there at

11    event 4," even though you didn't cover it and it is relevant to the

12    indictment, you don't suggest that that's outside the scope of the

13    cross-examination, or do you?  That's what I want to get clear.

14            MR. KEEGAN:  Yes, Your Honour, depending on what the purpose of it

15    is.  If it's simply to recount it and they're not suggesting that there is

16    some purpose for this person's -- and they focus their questions in that

17    way.  The reason I say that, Your Honour, is I think perhaps by now it's

18    clear that many prisoners can talk about many, many events --

19            JUDGE WALD:  Exactly.

20            MR. KEEGAN:  -- based on a wide range of information, and the

21    question is -- for example, the reason I raised the objection in this part

22    is this particular person didn't even know the victim and couldn't -- in

23    fact, in the end would not have been able to say that the person he saw

24    was, indeed, the named victim.

25            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  But that's --

Page 4557

 1            MR. KEEGAN:  But the problem that we have, then, Your Honour, is

 2    the redirect is going to involve, in essence, going through the entire

 3    event --

 4            JUDGE WALD:  I know, I know.  But in terms of the scope, many of

 5    the incidents we deal with have several witnesses to them.

 6            MR. KEEGAN:  That's true, Your Honour.

 7            JUDGE WALD:  Some of the witnesses may not give exactly the same

 8    account --

 9            MR. KEEGAN:  I agree.

10            JUDGE WALD:  -- and a cross-examiner, be it you or be it the

11    Defence, may well want to show that, indeed, this account is a little

12    different than the prior witness' account, so they want to find out from

13    this particular witness, even though the direct examination didn't cover

14    it, they want to get that out so that later on they can compare it with

15    other accounts.

16            MR. KEEGAN:  Your Honour, we have no difficulty with that in

17    principle.  I just want it then understood that the Prosecution would then

18    be able to engage in a full redirect in order to show what may, perhaps,

19    be in fact the most accurate version by going back to the witness in all

20    of his ability to observe and relate what he knew, what he saw, what he

21    was told.  I'm simply suggesting that unless a proper foundation can be

22    laid, we are talking about substantially lengthening many, many of these

23    witness sessions.

24            We have no objection to that at all, Your Honour, as has been

25    clear from our non-objection to the attempted admission of a number of the

Page 4558

 1    statements.  I'm simply saying, based on the guidance of the Chamber, we

 2    think at least first there should be perhaps some submission from counsel

 3    as to what the purpose of the questioning will be so that we can determine

 4    if, in fact, it would be relevant to an issue.

 5            JUDGE WALD:  Thank you.  I appreciate the clarification.

 6            JUDGE RIAD:  Excuse me, Mr. Keegan.

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I apologise, Judge Riad, for

 8    this interruption.  However, let us have control over the proceedings.  We

 9    were about to make a break.  There is a witness waiting for us, and we

10    also have a scheduled Status Conference.  Either we're going to continue

11    with this discussion -- but maybe we're all very tired and maybe we all

12    need a break at this point.  We also have to think about the interpreters

13    and the witness who is waiting.  I'm always concerned about those

14    witnesses who have to wait and leave and then come again.

15            Let me suggest the following:  Let us have a break, and let us

16    move this discussion regarding the examination-in-chief and the

17    cross-examination to the Status Conference.  Let us discuss it at the

18    Status Conference.  We have to bear in mind the witnesses.  I do not wish

19    to conduct myself in an authoritative manner, but I should like, really,

20    to suggest a break so that we can organise ourselves better.  After the

21    break, we will continue with the hearing, with the debate, or we will

22    decide to discuss the issue during the Status Conference.

23            However, I wish to know, are we going to begin with the

24    examination of our following witness or not, Mr. Keegan?

25            MR. KEEGAN:  Yes, Your Honour, the witness is ready.  I was just

Page 4559

 1    suggesting that we may finish early tomorrow.

 2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then.  We are going

 3    to have a break now.  But maybe we can already decide that this discussion

 4    will be the subject of the Status Conference either this afternoon or

 5    tomorrow; do you agree with that?  So we will proceed with the witness

 6    after the break.

 7            A half-hour break.

 8                          --- Recess taken at 1.10 p.m.

 9                          --- On resuming at 1.53 p.m.

10            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

11                          [The witness entered court]

12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can you hear me, Witness?

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You are now going to read the

15    solemn declaration handed to you by the usher.

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

17    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18                          WITNESS:  HASE ICIC

19                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.  I see that

21    Mr. Piacente is going to examine the witness.

22            And Witness, you shall now be answering questions put to you by

23    the Prosecutor.

24            Mr. Piacente, your witness.

25            MR. PIACENTE:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.  Before we start,

Page 4560

 1    I would list the matters the witness is expected to cover in his

 2    testimony.

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You have the piece of paper?

 4            MR. PIACENTE:  Yes, Your Honour.

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps you could have it

 6    distributed to the parties and to the Judges.  That would facilitate

 7    matters.  I don't have it, speaking for myself.

 8            Do the other parties have the document?  Yes.  So it just seems

 9    that the Judges have not yet received a copy.

10            Very well, Mr. Piacente.  Please continue.  We now have the

11    material in front of us.

12            Mr. Stojanovic, you have the floor.

13            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I should

14    like to inform the Trial Chamber that until three days ago we were not

15    informed that the present witness will be testifying with respect to the

16    circumstances that Mr. Zigic is indicted for.  These documents make no

17    mention of the fact that he will be speaking about those facts and

18    circumstances.  We can gauge that he will be speaking about counts 1 to 3

19    of the indictment and will be referring to a confidential annex B, where

20    the client, our client, is not mentioned.  But we have received fresh

21    material where our client is mentioned, but that was done only three days

22    ago.  Therefore, let me say that we do know that this witness will be

23    testifying to the facts related to Mr. Zigic and that this has been

24    brought to our attention recently.  That is all.

25            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So what are you in fact asking

Page 4561

 1    of us?  Are you asking anything of the Chamber or are you just giving us a

 2    piece of information?

 3            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I am objecting to certain points

 4    according to which the Prosecution will be conducting its

 5    examination-in-chief of this witness.  I haven't got the enumeration for

 6    the points.  It is the point with respect to crimes committed

 7    by -- allegedly committed by the accused, Mr. Zoran Zigic.  There is

 8    another point which relates to the injuring of detainees at Keraterm by

 9    Zoran Zigic.  And finally there is the description of Zoran Zigic and the

10    other accused.

11            We do have a previous document on the identification of Zoran

12    Zigic.  That is something which has been brought to our attention.  But

13    the results of that identification I don't wish to mention at this

14    particular point.

15            Therefore, we are objecting to that portion of the examination of

16    this witness, in view of the fact that we did not receive the documents on

17    time related to these particular points.  In other words, our objection is

18    that the witness should not be questioned on that portion of the

19    document.

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Have you finished,

21    Mr. Stojanovic?  Is that all you wish to say?

22            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan, your response.

24            MR. KEEGAN:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.  It might be helpful if

25    counsel would identify specifically the disclosure he's referring to that

Page 4562

 1    he indicates he only received three days ago.  The first disclosure was

 2    made with respect to this witness in July of 1999.  Matters which related

 3    to Mr. Zigic were disclosed on the 8th -- excuse me, the 10th of August,

 4    1998, again on the 11th of August of this year, the 3rd of August of this

 5    year, the 20th of July of this year.  And these are in B/C/S that I'm

 6    referring to.  The English versions were disclosed earlier than that.  So

 7    quite frankly, I'm at a loss as to what information he's indicating he

 8    only received three days ago, based on our list of our disclosure.

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, your response.

10            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  The

11    previous documents, yes, we have received them, but I do not see that the

12    incidents are mentioned on which the witness will be -- about which the

13    witness will be testifying today, according to this programme set out by

14    the Prosecutor.  Now, the documents that were allegedly sent to us in

15    August -- and my colleague will help me, because we have had some slight

16    rotation -- that is to say, we received them after the 20th of August.  I

17    can say that for certain.  There were --

18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What year?  The 20th of August

19    which year?  You said the 20th of August.  What year?

20            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Two thousand.  That is to say,

21    after the 20th of August.  I personally have been in possession of these

22    documents only for the past three days.  So I am not -- I don't mind

23    whether they were handed in in B/C/S or English.  That is not a problem.

24            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan, we have heard the

25    response, but perhaps you could check the dates.  Have you got the

Page 4563

 1    receipts from Mr. Stojanovic saying that he did, indeed, receive those

 2    documents?

 3            MR. KEEGAN:  If I could just have one moment, Your Honour.

 4                          [Prosecution counsel confer]

 5            MR. KEEGAN:  Yes, Your Honour.  We're rechecking the dates here

 6    based on the receipts.  But, for example, if I understand -- again, he has

 7    not identified the particular event.  But if I am understanding him

 8    correctly, then he's probably referring to a proffer of testimony; that

 9    was originally disclosed on the 27th of May of 1999.  It was then

10    redisclosed in an unredacted form, that is, with the witness' name and

11    identifying information, on the 28th of July of this year.  But the

12    original information was, in fact, disclosed in 1999.

13            Now, if there has been a problem between counsel in terms of

14    turning over material and making themselves aware of it, I'm not sure that

15    the Prosecution should be held responsible for that aspect of the case.

16            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The other question, Mr. Keegan,

17    is to know whether the documents that you sent to the Defence counsel

18    touched upon the points which Mr. Stojanovic is contesting, that is to

19    say, with respect to what relates to Mr. Zoran Zigic.

20            MR. KEEGAN:  Again, Your Honour, we have two documents: one dated

21    in July 1999, as I indicated, which refer to incidents alleged to have

22    been committed by the accused Zoran Zigic; we have another dated 19 July

23    2000 which further elaborates.  But we have no record of any disclosure

24    three days ago, so I'm at a loss as to exactly what he's referring to.

25            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, and as you can understand,

Page 4564

 1    the Chamber finds itself even more lost because it does not know the

 2    contents of the document.  You said that you sent the documents.  The

 3    Defence states that it has not received the documents.

 4            Where do we stand, Mr. Stojanovic?  Where do we stand at this

 5    point?

 6            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have the

 7    previous document of the 4th of April --

 8            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me one moment.

 9    Mr. Stojanovic, excuse me for interrupting you.  But which are the

10    documents that you received three days ago?  Which are they?

11            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have a whole heap of documents

12    in front of me.  I haven't had time to read them all.  But let me say,

13    among other things --

14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What documents?  What are the

15    documents that you have received?

16            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] They are documents which, for the

17    first time, this witness is alleging charges against our client.  For

18    example, the proffer of the 19th of July, 2000 --

19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I am asking you, Mr. Stojanovic,

20    which are the documents so that Mr. Keegan can confirm them.  Give us the

21    number, give us a reference number of the document, the date and title, so

22    we can identify the documents and so that Mr. Keegan can know exactly

23    which documents he sent and when he sent them, whether they were sent out

24    three days ago, a week ago, or what.

25            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] May I ask Mr. Keegan -- that is

Page 4565













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Page 4566

 1    to say, I personally signed for a number of documents myself, and I handed

 2    in a signed document as to what we received.  Amongst others, we enumerate

 3    these particular documents, and that was done this week, if I'm correct,

 4    in the course of the week.

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Keegan.

 6            MR. KEEGAN:  Yes, Your Honour, I've asked the case manager to go

 7    obtain the signed receipts that we have.  What we have in the courtroom

 8    are our copies which were sent and the date we sent them, but the signed

 9    receipts are upstairs.  She's obtaining those.  The proffer of the 19th of

10    the July, 2000, according to our log, was disclosed on the 11th of August

11    of this year; that's the B/C/S version.  The English version was disclosed

12    on the 3rd of August, so some 27 days ago.

13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] May I make a suggestion,

14    gentlemen.  But one more point before I do so.

15            Mr. Stojanovic, when did you pinpoint this difficulty which led to

16    your objection?  Was it before the witness entered, just before he

17    entered, or prior to that?

18            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, this week, and I proposed --

19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So it was this week that you

20    identified the subject of your objection; is that correct?

21            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Not only this one point.  I said

22    that we received over 1.000 pages over the last ten days of different

23    documents, thousands of pages of different documents.

24            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask the usher to

25    escort the witness out of the courtroom.

Page 4567

 1            We do apologise to you, Witness, for calling you here to testify,

 2    but we have become involved in another discussion.  So if you would now be

 3    allowed to be escorted out of the courtroom.  We will hear your testimony

 4    tomorrow, and I ask for your understanding in that regard.

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no problem.  Thank you,

 6    Your Honour.

 7                          [The witness stands down]

 8            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask Mr. Stojanovic

 9    and Mr. Keegan to settle the matter so that we can know what the documents

10    are.  I profoundly regret the fact that you did have the opportunity of

11    informing the Prosecutor before this particular moment and you waited to

12    have the witness brought in to raise your objection.

13            I adjourn the meeting for today and make it incumbent upon you to

14    settle the matter.  We'll return at 3.30 for our Status Conference, but

15    we'll adjourn now.

16                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.11 p.m.,

17                          to be followed by a Status Conference.