Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5810

1 Wednesday, 27 September 2000

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated. Good

6 morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning, technicians, interpreters,

7 legal assistants, representatives of the Registry; good morning, counsel

8 for the Prosecution, counsel for Defence; good morning to the accused.

9 We will resume the hearing of this case with a ruling which we

10 promised to render this morning regarding Exhibits D4/4 and D5/5.

11 The Chamber has already decided that the previous statements of a

12 witness may be used at the hearing during the cross-examination of the

13 witness in question outside the additional examination by the calling

14 party. Exhibits number D4/4 and D4/5 are within the general scope of the

15 previous statement of the witness in question.

16 The witness Husein Ganic did not authenticate either of the

17 statements. However, the Chamber wishes to note that the Defence counsel

18 may always avail themselves of an opportunity to try and authenticate

19 exhibits number D4/4 and D4/5 during their presentation of the case.

20 Bearing in mind the arguments of the parties, the Chamber decides

21 to reject the motion of the counsel for the Defence and does not admit the

22 above-mentioned exhibits.

23 I hope that you will remember how much time we spent to discuss

24 the issue of previous statements, and the majority of the Defence counsel

25 were in favour of the idea of the orality, the principle of orality of the

Page 5811

1 giving of evidence, but the statements may be used in cross-examination to

2 test the credibility of the witness and in order to try and clarify

3 certain discrepancies between what the witness said here and what he had

4 said on a previous occasion in his statement.

5 Therefore, we decided that the statements may be used, bearing in

6 mind certain exceptional circumstances and under the reservation of

7 Rule 89. So the Defence counsel are aware of the position that they

8 adopted in that discussion and are also aware of the choice that they

9 made. There were Defence counsel, you will remember, who were ready to

10 accept those statements; however, the majority of the Defence counsel were

11 not in favour of admitting those statements in that fashion. However, as

12 we have said, the Defence counsel may always try to authenticate the

13 document during the presentation of their case.

14 We're now going to move on to another stage of the proceedings,

15 that is, to our next witness.

16 Counsel for the Prosecution, could you advise us of how we stand?

17 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. The Prosecution

18 would call Emsud Garibovic.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Before the witness is brought

20 in, I should like to know whether there are any problems that the Defence

21 counsel wish to raise. No.

22 We can now call the witness in. Mr. Usher, could you please bring

23 in the witness.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Garibovic.

Page 5812

1 Can you hear me?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Could you please read the solemn

4 declaration that the usher is giving you.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.


9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Could you perhaps come a little

11 closer to the microphone and make yourself as comfortable as possible.

12 Thank you very much, Witness, for coming here to testify. You

13 will first be answering questions that will be put to you by the counsel

14 for the Prosecution and, after that, you will answer questions that will

15 be put to you by the Defence counsel and also by the Judges.

16 Mr. Waidyaratne, you have the floor.

17 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:

19 Q. Good morning, Witness. Could you kindly state your full name to

20 the Court, please.

21 A. My name is Emsud Garibovic.

22 Q. What is your date of birth and place of birth?

23 A. I was born on the 29th of September, 1962, in Trnopolje.

24 Q. What is your ethnicity?

25 A. I am a Muslim by ethnicity.

Page 5813

1 Q. Are you married?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you have children?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could you state the name of your wife and your children.

6 A. My wife's name is Sadija. The name of my first child is Sead, and

7 the name of my second child is Mirsad.

8 Q. Could you give the date of birth of your children, please?

9 A. Sead was born in 1985, and Mirsad in 1989.

10 Q. How many sisters and brothers do you have in your family?

11 A. There were five of us.

12 Q. Could you give the names of the members.

13 A. There's Emira, Ahmet, Irfan, and Mirsada.

14 Q. Where did you reside prior to 1992, before the war?

15 A. I lived in the place which was called Garibi.

16 Q. Was Garibi in Trnopolje?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And in whose house did you live?

19 A. I lived in my father's house.

20 Q. Did you have a house of your own?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was it also in Garibi?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Who else did live with you before the war?

25 A. My father, who worked in Germany.

Page 5814

1 Q. Were you employed before the war?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Where were you employed?

4 A. I was employed in Prijedor at the factory called Javor, at the

5 furniture factory called Javor.

6 Q. As what?

7 A. I worked as a carpenter. That was my occupation.

8 Q. Did you perform compulsory military service?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you remember when and where?

11 A. It was in 1983 in Zagreb.

12 Q. Were you involved or interested in politics, or did you take part

13 in active politics?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Now, Mr. Garibovic, do you remember the takeover of Prijedor in

16 1992?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And did you stop work after the takeover?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Why did you stop work?

21 A. I stopped working because one day when I went to work, I was

22 turned back from the checkpoint which was located in Garibovici.

23 Q. Who sent you back? What happened? Could you describe as to what

24 happened?

25 A. The checkpoint was manned by Serbs who were armed with rifles, and

Page 5815

1 they got on the bus and wanted to see our identity cards. After we had

2 shown them our identity cards, all non-Serbs were forced to get off the

3 bus and go back home. When I told them that I had to go to work, he --

4 they told me, "You have completed your work, sir."

5 Q. So thereafter you didn't go to work?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you remember when Kozarac was attacked? Will you agree that if

8 I say that it was on the 23rd of May, 1992, according to your

9 recollection?

10 A. Yes, I remember. I agree.

11 Q. Where were you during this time?

12 A. During this time, together with my wife and children, I was in the

13 village Huskici.

14 Q. Where did you spent the day in Huskici?

15 A. I spent the day at the house of my brother's father-in-law.

16 Q. And during the time you spent in Huskici, did you observe any

17 villages, surrounding villages being shelled?

18 A. Yes. It happened in the evening of the 23rd of May. The

19 surrounding villages were shelled, such as Hadzici, Jakupovici, Kamicani,

20 Softici, Brdjani, Kozarac, Kozarusa, and Mujkanovici.

21 Q. After the day that you spent in Huskici, did you move towards any

22 other location the next day, and where did you go to?

23 A. The following day after the shelling, I set out in the direction

24 of Kozara -- or rather, in the direction of the village of Brdjani.

25 Q. What are the villages that you passed on your way?

Page 5816

1 A. On my way, going along the road to Banja Luka and in the direction

2 of Brdjani, I passed a portion of that road but went back in the direction

3 of Kozarac.

4 Q. Did you see as to what has happened in these villages or any

5 destruction that had taken place?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What did you observe?

8 A. The shelling had taken place the previous evening, and as a result

9 of that, a number of roofs were damaged, and a lot of property was

10 damaged, houses and other property.

11 Q. Now, you mentioned the village of Garibi. Could you say what is

12 the ethnicity, the percentage, of Garibi before the war?

13 A. Exclusively Muslim, but around then there were Serbian villages

14 such as Petrov Gaj.

15 Q. You mentioned Huskici. What is the ethnicity, the percentage of

16 the ethnicity in that village?

17 A. Muslims.

18 Q. And you mentioned some names of villages where -- the villages you

19 saw were shelled. What is the majority ethnic group which lived in those

20 villages?

21 A. Muslims.

22 Q. Did you -- on your way to Kozarac, did you join a convoy which was

23 proceeding in the direction of Prijedor?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Could you describe as to who the majority of people were in that

Page 5817

1 convoy?

2 A. The majority of the people on the convoy were Muslims.

3 Q. After you joined the convoy, where did this convoy proceed to?

4 A. The convoy proceeded to Prijedor.

5 Q. Was the convoy stopped at a village by the name of Susici?

6 A. Yes. More precisely, near the restaurant called Ziko.

7 Q. What happened there? What did you observe?

8 A. Let me say that, before that, before it stopped, men were

9 separated from women and children and put aside, and women and children

10 remained on one side.

11 Q. Did you observe any persons who were in the convoy being abused or

12 beaten at that instance?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could you explain or describe as to what you saw.

15 A. After the separation had taken place in the buses, the Serb

16 soldiers were there waiting for us, and immediately they started hitting

17 some of us whom they knew, and they ordered us to take out all the

18 belongings that we had with us. We had to discard all metal objects.

19 Some people were badly, badly beaten up at that point and some were taken

20 into nearby houses.

21 Q. Did you see as to what happened to the people who were separated,

22 the women and children?

23 A. Yes. They were loaded onto the buses.

24 Q. And do you know as to where they were taken to?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5818

1 Q. Where?

2 A. Some were taken to Omarska, some to Trnopolje.

3 Q. What happened to you and the other men who were left behind?

4 A. We were taken to Trnopolje.

5 Q. How?

6 A. By bus.

7 Q. Who were the other people who were with you in the bus?

8 A. Muslims.

9 Q. Were they males?

10 A. Yes, only males.

11 Q. You said that the bus was taken to Trnopolje. After you reached

12 Trnopolje, what were you ordered to do, or what did you do?

13 A. Upon our arrival in Trnopolje, I realised that a number of women

14 and children had arrived there prior to us. They were standing outside on

15 a playground, but we were immediately locked up in a sports hall. I'm

16 referring to us men.

17 Q. Who were the other men? Did you recognise any of the other men

18 who were with you in the hall?

19 A. No, I didn't recognise them, but mostly they were people from that

20 area.

21 Q. And do you know to which ethnicity they belonged to?

22 A. Muslims.

23 Q. Mr. Garibovic, the time that you spent in the camp Trnopolje, were

24 you able to move around freely, or did you move around?

25 A. No.

Page 5819

1 Q. Why?

2 A. Because my Serb neighbours used to pass along that road very often

3 and farm the surrounding land throughout my stay in Trnopolje.

4 Q. Did you also hear from other people as to what happened to many of

5 the detainees in other places?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What did you hear?

8 A. I heard that one evening in Omarska, a number of people by the

9 name of Garibovic were taken out. I think 11 of them.

10 Q. And what did you hear about them and from whom did you hear this?

11 A. This is what I heard from Mr. Enes Mujkanovic, who was in the same

12 room as my brother, and he told me that they had come one evening and told

13 all the Garibovics to come out. They went from room to room. And on that

14 evening, 11 of them were ordered to get out. My brother Irfan Garibovic

15 was also in that group.

16 Q. You mentioned the name of your brother Irfan Garibovic. When did

17 you last see him?

18 A. I saw him for the last time in the village of Huskici.

19 Q. How was he dressed and did you speak to him then?

20 A. Yes, I did speak to him. He was wearing a blue jacket, normal

21 trousers, and Alpina shoes.

22 Q. When Enes Mujkanovic told you about your brother Irfan Garibovic,

23 did he say as to what happened to Irfan after he was called out? Was he

24 returned to the room after that?

25 A. No. Irfan didn't come back to the room. This is what Enes told

Page 5820













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Page 5821

1 me. At first I didn't believe him, but he said to me or, rather, I asked

2 him what he was wearing, and he confirmed that he was wearing a blue

3 jacket, trousers, and Alpina shoes. And he told me that the evening he

4 was taken out, after that, he never returned to the room, and that after

5 he left the room, they heard that they were all beaten up outside, that

6 after that, a vehicle was heard, a TAM vehicle, which had a specific sound

7 to the engine so that the people who were in the camp heard that after the

8 beating, this vehicle was set in motion.

9 Q. Now, did you know about the other Garibovic -- persons by the name

10 of Garibovic who were called out from that room on that particular night?

11 A. Yes. Yes. I later learnt this from people who came to Trnopolje

12 with Enes Mujkanovic, who told us the names of all the people who were

13 called out that evening and taken outside.

14 Q. Could you give the names of the other people, the Garibovic whom

15 you learned, the names that you learned?

16 A. Yes. Ferid Garibovic, Senad Garibovic, Enes Garibovic, Hasib

17 Garibovic, Dervis Garibovic, Irfan Garibovic, Dzevad Garibovic, Suvad

18 Garibovic, Hamdo Garibovic, and the 11th name was Mirsad Jakupovic. He

19 did not have the same surname Garibovic, but he lived in the village

20 Garibi.

21 Q. Now, you mentioned 11 names altogether, ten names with the name of

22 Garibovic and one with the name of Jakupovic. How well did you know these

23 people other than Irfan, who was your brother?

24 A. I knew those people quite well because they actually lived in my

25 neighbourhood, and we would see each other often. I can't say every day,

Page 5822

1 but weekly, certainly.

2 Q. Now, first of all, about your brother, Irfan Garibovic, have you

3 heard of him since 1992 after he was seen in Omarska?

4 A. To this day, no, nothing.

5 Q. Have you made inquiries about him?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And to date you have not had any successful results about his

8 whereabouts?

9 A. To this day, nothing about any of them.

10 Q. Now, Mr. Garibovic, about the others by the names you mentioned,

11 Ferid Garibovic, Senad Garibovic, Enes Garibovic, Hasib Garibovic, Dervis

12 Garibovic, Dzevad Garibovic, Suvad Garibovic, Sabid [sic] Garibovic,

13 Mirsad Jakupovic and Hamdo Garibovic, have you made inquiries or have you

14 contacted any of their immediate family members after 1992?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Have you learned anything about them or that whether they'd

17 survived the Omarska camp or whether they are alive?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What have you heard?

20 A. So far, nothing is known about any of them. After that evening

21 when they were taken out, all trace of them is lost.

22 Q. When did you learn about this when you were in Trnopolje from Enes

23 Mujkanovic?

24 A. I learnt that when the first group was released from Omarska, and

25 this was about the end of June.

Page 5823

1 Q. Do you remember the date that you were released from Trnopolje?

2 A. I was not released from Trnopolje. On the 21st of August, I left

3 with a convoy, the destination of which was Travnik.

4 Q. The day that you left Trnopolje, if I may put it.

5 Do you remember the day that you left Trnopolje? Could you

6 describe as to what happened and how you left Trnopolje?

7 A. That was on the 21st of August. I left Trnopolje in a convoy.

8 There was a total of four buses that left Trnopolje. People were

9 collected from a nearby locality, and since there weren't enough people to

10 fill in the buses, then to make up for the difference, people were taken

11 from the camp and boarded onto the buses, and there was a total of four

12 buses.

13 Q. Now, Mr. Garibovic, if I may go back, during the time that you

14 spent in the camp Trnopolje, did you get to know as to whether if anybody

15 was in authority or whether there was a camp commander?

16 A. Yes. It was Mr. Slobodan Kuruzovic.

17 Q. Now, the day you left Trnopolje, did you see this person by the

18 name of Slobodan Kuruzovic, the camp commander, present when the buses

19 were being loaded?

20 A. Yes. Yes, he was next to the buses.

21 Q. Was there anything unusual or peculiar, or were you stopped, if I

22 may put directly, when you boarded the bus?

23 A. No.

24 Q. You were allowed to board the bus?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5824

1 Q. Were there any guards or security personnel present at that

2 instance?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you describe as to who, as to who they were, if you know, or

5 how they were dressed?

6 A. They were people who had come from Prijedor, together with four

7 buses. They were wearing blue dotted uniforms, and next to them were men

8 wearing olive-grey uniforms who were in Trnopolje as guards.

9 Q. Now, were these persons armed?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you recognise any of these people, other than Mr. Slobodan

12 Kuruzovic, who were present at that instance?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Now, Mr. Garibovic, the bus that you got into, to your knowledge

15 -- or approximately how much would you estimate the amount of people who

16 was inside?

17 A. When we left Trnopolje, I can say that the bus was so packed full

18 that people were crammed tightly together as far as Kozarac.

19 Q. Were there any escorts or any other vehicles which accompanied

20 these buses when you all left Trnopolje?

21 A. Yes. Vehicles that had come from Prijedor together with the buses

22 and men who were dressed in blue uniforms, blue dotted, something like

23 camouflage uniforms.

24 Q. Were these other vehicles which accompanied the buses police

25 vehicles?

Page 5825

1 A. Yes, blue police vehicles.

2 Q. Now, after you left Trnopolje, could you describe to the Court as

3 to what or where you stopped first, where the buses stopped, and what

4 happened there?

5 A. We arrived in Kozarac. We were stopped there on the road, the

6 Prijedor to Banja Luka road. We waited there, at least that is what we

7 were told, to be joined by a convoy of Muslims coming from Sanski Most.

8 Q. Did any others join the buses or any people get into the buses or

9 any other vehicles join the buses that you were in?

10 A. When the other vehicles arrived, we were told, because the buses

11 were overcrowded, that some people should get off the buses and board the

12 trucks with trailers.

13 Q. Did you get out from the bus and get into any other vehicle?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you see any others getting out of the bus and getting into the

16 other vehicles?

17 A. Yes. I didn't get off the bus, but a number of people did and got

18 onto the vehicles which had come from Sanski Most.

19 Q. Now, from there, where did you all proceed to and where did you

20 stop -- did the buses stop at any place?

21 A. I can say that, as far as Banja Luka or, rather, Skender Vakuf,

22 the vehicles were not stopped and there were no problems or difficulties.

23 Q. So did the vehicles stop in Banja Luka?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did it stop -- you mentioned the name Skender Vakuf. Could you

Page 5826

1 describe as to where this place is?

2 A. The place is several kilometres from Banja Luka. I can't tell you

3 exactly how many.

4 Q. When you got to Skender Vakuf, did the buses turn off from Banja

5 Luka?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could you describe as to how -- what is the road -- the condition

8 of the road and the environment that you travelled in?

9 A. As we were passing Skender Vakuf, we in the buses were ordered to

10 bow our heads towards the floor as we were passing through Skender Vakuf.

11 Q. What time of the day was it at this time?

12 A. About 3.00, or 2.00 or 3.00 in the afternoon.

13 Q. And did the buses stop at any place after you passed Skender

14 Vakuf?

15 A. I didn't answer your question about the kind of road it was. The

16 road as far as Skender Vakuf was asphalt. After Skender Vakuf, we

17 travelled along a macadam road.

18 Q. Did you travel -- I'm sorry. Now, did you, at any stage, observe

19 the persons that escorted these buses increase according to what you

20 observed?

21 A. After passing Skender Vakuf, we were stopped several times along

22 that macadam road, which was a road going through the woods and uphill and

23 downhill. When we were stopped, we were told that there were some faults

24 occurring, and the first and second time, maybe the third time as well, I

25 noticed that soldiers were passing alongside the vehicles and looking

Page 5827

1 inside in the buses and the vehicles.

2 Q. What came to your mind at that time? Did you know as to what they

3 were looking for? Was that unusual?

4 A. I found it unusual, but, at the time, I simply didn't think about

5 it. I had no idea what was going to happen.

6 Q. Did you see a security personnel or a person who escorted dressed

7 in a different uniform during this time?

8 A. Yes. The one but last time when we were stopped, I passed by a

9 man who had a red beret on his head. He was wearing an olive-grey

10 uniform. He had a walkie-talkie in his hand, and he was consulting

11 somebody, and he said, "In half an hour."

12 Q. Now, did this person whom you described dressed differently, did

13 you see him when you left Trnopolje?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Just to go one step back, a question with regard to Skender

16 Vakuf. Did you know what this place was? Was it a town?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you know the ethnicity of the people from that place, the

19 inhabitants?

20 A. No, I don't remember that.

21 Q. Now, Mr. Garibovic, did the buses start off again and proceed

22 further?

23 A. Yes. After that, they started again and then were stopped again,

24 and then we were ordered that all men should get off the bus. In the

25 meantime, they had released two buses, and those of us who had got off the

Page 5828

1 bus were told to board the other buses that had been vacated in the

2 meantime.

3 Q. So did you all do as ordered?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And what happened thereafter? Could you describe as to what

6 happened.

7 A. After getting onto those buses, the whole convoy was allowed to

8 pass. The vehicles went past us. We stayed there awhile and then we

9 started off again. Then they asked all of us that all the things we had,

10 like watches, rings, and money, they sent us a bag into which all of us

11 who had anything were supposed to put it inside. And when getting onto

12 those buses, we had to have our heads down.

13 Q. Now, you said "they sent a bag." Whom do you mean by the word

14 "they"?

15 A. I'm thinking of the Serb soldiers who were escorting the buses.

16 Q. Now, when you were keeping your heads down in the process, you

17 were unable to see as to where the buses were proceeding, or were you able

18 to observe anything?

19 A. On the road, no.

20 Q. Did the buses come to a halt again?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And, Mr. Garibovic, could you describe as to what they ordered you

23 to do and the others in the bus.

24 A. When we got off the bus, the man who was in front said the

25 following, "You're now going to be exchanged, the living for the living,

Page 5829

1 and the dead, you know what." And we were allowed to get off the front

2 door of the bus.

3 As we got off the bus, we were ordered to form a column, two by

4 two. As I got off, I saw another bus standing in front of us.

5 Q. Now, you said "the man who was in front." Now, whom do you refer

6 to? Was he an escort or a soldier who was there?

7 A. Yes, a soldier from the escort.

8 Q. You said that you all were ordered to get down. Did you all get

9 down and were you ordered to go ahead?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What did they order you to do?

12 A. We were led for some time on foot, about five or ten minutes, and

13 then we were ordered to turn to the left. We did that.

14 Q. Mr. Garibovic, while you got off the bus, did you observe as to

15 how many people, according to your observation, were with you in that bus

16 and got down from the bus?

17 A. As I got onto the bus I was in, I can say that there was more than

18 a hundred people there.

19 Q. And all these people were, at this stage, were asked to march

20 forward and turn to the left. Now, when you turned to your left, what did

21 you see? Did you observe the surroundings at that place? Could you

22 describe to the Court as to what this place was?

23 A. It was in a wooded area, and on the road, on one side was a steep

24 slope and the road was sort of cut into the slope, and on the other side

25 there was a precipice.

Page 5830

1 Q. When you were asked to turn to your left, what did you face?

2 Where did you face?

3 A. We were facing the precipice.

4 Q. Were you facing the precipice?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Just before I go ahead, did you see any of -- did you recognise

7 any other persons who were there with you then or whom you knew earlier?

8 A. Yes. As I got off the bus, I recognised a man called Jasim Fazlic

9 who used to be my manager in Mala Privreda. I recognised him because he

10 was wearing a blue tracksuit.

11 Q. And you said that you were ordered to turn around and you were

12 facing the precipice. Then could you describe to the Court as to what

13 happened?

14 A. Yes. Because I was first next to the edge, we were ordered to

15 take three steps forward.

16 Q. If you took three steps -- or did you take three steps forward?

17 A. No. The third step would make us fall down into the gorge, so I

18 made two steps. You couldn't make a third.

19 Q. And were you ordered to kneel down?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When I say "you," all the others were also ordered the same way?

22 A. Yes, the whole column.

23 Q. After that command was given, what happened?

24 A. I didn't manage to kneel down, and I think most of the others

25 didn't either. We heard gunfire at us. The man behind me simply pushed

Page 5831













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Page 5832

1 me down, down the slope.

2 Q. Would you describe what happened thereafter?

3 A. I made one or several somersaults, and I fell down a hill. Other

4 men were falling on top of me. When I reached the bottom, there were men

5 there who had already been hit and who fell before me. I saw a man facing

6 me, half of whose skull had been blown away.

7 Q. How long did the gunfire last, if you could remember?

8 A. I can't tell you exactly. Maybe ten, 15 minutes. I don't know.

9 Q. Did you hear the cries and the moans or shouts of the people, the

10 others?

11 A. Yes. It was loudest when they started shooting at us. People

12 were saying, "Oh, oh."

13 Q. Now, you said that you fell down. Were you injured?

14 A. Not so badly that I was not able to run away.

15 Q. And when you were at the bottom, what did you see? Did you see

16 any persons, any other person getting up?

17 A. Yes, I saw Jakupovic. He gave me the initiative to run. I saw

18 Jakupovic getting up and starting to run, so I did the same. I got up and

19 followed him.

20 Q. Now, this Jakupovic whom you mention, do you know his first name?

21 A. Yes, Bahrija Jakupovic.

22 Q. And you said that you followed Bahrija Jakupovic, and he gave you

23 the encouragement or he got you to -- made you to run. Where did you run

24 to?

25 A. We ran to the left. Then we crossed the river, and as we were

Page 5833

1 crossing the river, we passed between two mills that were on the river, so

2 we crossed over to the other side.

3 Q. And after you crossed the river, did you observe or did you see

4 anything or did you hear anything happening from the place that you were

5 put down to the ravine?

6 A. Yes. The gunfire could still be heard.

7 Q. What did you observe? Did Bahrija observe anything and tell you?

8 A. Yes. After that, I was simply in shock, so I was shaking so much

9 that I was out of my mind. But Bahrija left and said, "I'm going to see

10 what's going on."

11 Q. What did he come back and tell you as to what he saw?

12 A. Yes. This is what he said: He said that he had seen that they

13 were not doing the same thing as they did to us, that they were bringing

14 people in groups and killing them in that way.

15 Q. Now, there was a second bus other than the bus that you all were

16 in?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And Bahrija said that they were killing them. Was it by shooting?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, from there, did you come up or meet with some soldiers?

21 A. Yes. Two days later, after we had wandered around the Vlasic

22 Mountain, that is what happened.

23 Q. Now, what did the soldiers do to you and Bahrija? Where were you

24 all taken to?

25 A. We couldn't go on anymore, and we sort of surrendered, if I can

Page 5834

1 put it that way, and the place where we surrendered was called Galica.

2 From there, we were taken to a place whose name I don't know. It was a

3 command of some sort. And from that command, we were transferred to

4 Skender Vakuf.

5 Q. Now, at Skender Vakuf, did you meet any other survivors from the

6 earlier massacre that you mentioned?

7 A. Yes. When I got there, I found Midhet Mujkanovic there, Mehmed

8 Sivac was there as well, Sulejman Kahrimanovic, and Bahrija and myself.

9 There were -- so five of us.

10 Q. And from there, you were all -- were you and the others

11 transferred to a hospital in Banja Luka?

12 A. I should like to add something --

13 Q. Please.

14 A. -- if I may. We spent a night there. Mehmed Sivac told us that

15 he had passed the examination, and that we would also be examined,

16 probably in the following morning.

17 Q. Now, Mr. Garibovic, did you observe with regard to the other

18 people whom you met, Midhet Mujkanovic, Sulejman Kahrimanovic, Mehmed

19 Sivac and the others, what injuries they have sustained or --

20 A. Sivac Mehmed had an injured skull.

21 The others were also wounded, but they were more swollen, with

22 scratches on their body. Midhet Mujkanovic was also in a very bad shape.

23 His legs were injured.

24 Q. Did they say as to what happened to them? Did they say that they

25 were also in the same bus?

Page 5835

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, I asked you whether you were taken to a hospital in Banja

3 Luka.

4 A. After that, after that interrogation in Skender Vakuf, we were

5 transferred to the Banja Luka hospital.

6 Q. And were you treated well there?

7 A. No.

8 Q. What did they do to you?

9 A. We arrived at the hospital, which was situated in the centre of

10 the town of Banja Luka, and we were put at the surgery department, but we

11 were immediately beaten up there.

12 Q. Did you meet with another person who survived the massacre, by the

13 name of Sanimir Kljajic?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And going back to the last answer that you said, you said that "We

16 were immediately beaten up there." Who beat you up?

17 A. There were Serb soldiers there, standing at the entrance to the

18 hospital. Some of them actually remained outside and some of them entered

19 the hospital and beat us on the staircase.

20 Q. And from there onwards, what happened? Were you released and were

21 you able to go to any other place?

22 A. Yes. We went to Merhamet.

23 Q. That's a voluntary organisation which helped you too?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Where did you go from there? Did you return back to Trnopolje?

Page 5836

1 A. No. From there, we went to Karlovac and then to a third country.

2 Q. Now, you explain about the shooting when you were in there with

3 the others. Were you able to see, when the shooting started, as to who

4 shot at you all?

5 A. I don't know that.

6 Q. Why didn't you see? Why were you unable to see that?

7 A. We were not able to see because we had to keep our heads bent

8 down.

9 Q. And the people who were armed at that instance were the people who

10 were escorting you?

11 A. Yes. I cannot say if anyone else had arrived there in the

12 meantime.

13 Q. Now, Mr. Garibovic, did you know that this place that you

14 described, Skender Vakuf, is it called or referred to by the Vlasic

15 Mountain?

16 A. Yes. I concluded, because of the geography and the river, that

17 the place where the execution had taken place was called Koricanske

18 Stijena.

19 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour. That concludes the

20 examination.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

22 Mr. Waidyaratne.

23 Mr. Simic, Krstan Simic, what is going to be the order? What news

24 do you have to tell us?

25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will only have three

Page 5837

1 or four questions for the witness, and my colleagues do not have any

2 questions to ask.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well then. Please approach

4 the microphone, Mr. Simic.

5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I'm ready to proceed, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Please do, Mr. Simic.

7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

9 Q. Mr. Garibovic, my name is Krstan Simic. I'm really sorry that I

10 have to trouble you with a few questions after this terrible story that

11 you have just told us, and I hope that I won't be reminding you too much

12 of the ordeal that you've been through.

13 In your testimony, you mentioned the person by the name of Enes

14 Mujkanovic.

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. You also said that he informed you about the tragic fate of your

17 brother.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In relation to your departure with this unfortunate convoy to

20 Travnik, how many days prior to that did you speak to Mr. Mujkanovic?

21 Could you situate the event in time?

22 A. I'm sorry, I don't quite understand the question. Would you

23 please repeat it?

24 Q. Could you situate the conversation between you and Mr. Mujkanovic

25 in time? Could you tell us when that conversation happened? I'm trying

Page 5838

1 to help you with the day you went to Travnik in that convoy.

2 A. I said that it had taken place in late June, but it may have also

3 been in July. But be that as it may, Enes came in the first group of

4 prisoners that was released from Omarska to Trnopolje.

5 Q. Thank you. Was that a large group of people who came from Omarska

6 to Trnopolje?

7 A. No. That was the first group, but I don't know exactly how many

8 buses came. I know that they came to Trnopolje in buses.

9 Q. So we can, therefore, agree that it was the first group that

10 arrived to Trnopolje in buses.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Garibovic. I have no further questions

13 for you, and once again, I am really sorry for what you have been

14 through.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic, thank you very

16 much.

17 Mr. Waidyaratne, is there going to be any additional examination

18 of the witness?

19 MR. WAIDYARATNE: No, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Waidyaratne.

21 Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.

22 Questioned by the Court:

23 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Mr. Garibovic. Can you hear me?

24 A. Yes, I can hear you. Good morning.

25 JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned that 11 people from Garibovic were

Page 5839

1 taken out and never known afterwards their whereabouts. Was there any

2 special reason why they would deliberately take people of Garibovic in

3 particular? Was there any special animosity between them and the people

4 who took them out or what?

5 A. Before the conflict, my village, the village of Garibi, had a

6 Territorial Defence which consisted of both Muslims and Serbs. The people

7 from my village also had weapons, just as the Serbs who were members of

8 the Territorial Defence.

9 One day, the Serbs left, and they left our people behind. There

10 were five or six of them in the group which was left behind.

11 JUDGE RIAD: And no attempts were made to know about the

12 whereabouts of these people? Could you confirm that they have died?

13 A. That is most probably the case, because we would have heard

14 something about them by now.

15 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much, and I hope the peaceful life in

16 which you are now will make you forget this ordeal.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

18 Judge Riad.

19 Madam Judge Wald apparently has no questions for the witness. I

20 don't have any questions for you, Mr. Garibovic, either.

21 So we have come to the end of your testimony before the

22 International Criminal Tribunal. We do understand what you have been

23 through, but we just realised that you will soon have your birthday. So

24 let me wish you many happy returns, and happy birthday, and a safe journey

25 back to your place of residence, and we hope that you will have a peaceful

Page 5840

1 life.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let me ask the usher to show you

4 out of the courtroom.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, and thank

6 you for calling me to testify.

7 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, would it be a convenient time to

8 have the break at this stage? We would call the next witness after the

9 break. Thank you.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, this is indeed a convenient

11 time for a break. We shall have a half-an-hour break. And we will hear

12 the Witness AV after that?

13 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Yes, with protective measures. Thank you.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well then. Half-hour

15 break.

16 --- Recess taken at 10.50 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 11.29 a.m.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

19 We are more or less nine minutes late. I should like this to be

20 registered in the record. It is not because of the Judges. The Judges

21 are ready in time. We really have to bear in mind that if there is a

22 problem in this Tribunal, it is the problem of the time of Judges. We

23 don't have sufficient number of Judges for all the work waiting for them;

24 therefore, we must make the best of each and every minute. So I'm asking

25 the registrar to do everything so that everyone and all the technical

Page 5841

1 facilities be ready in time.

2 I don't know whether you know, but one hour of hearings cost

3 10.000 US dollars, and we need to be specific about these things. And in

4 view of that expense, we have to take advantage of every minute. That is

5 our duty.

6 I'm saying this to avoid a repetition of such instances. It

7 happens frequently that Judges are waiting. Next time, the Judges are

8 going to enter the courtroom, and those who are not ready to begin in time

9 will have to provide their excuses in public.

10 Having said that, I'm not saying this because Judges are important

11 people; I'm saying it because Judges have to conduct the hearings in such

12 a way that the trial should be fair, expeditious, and also economical.

13 Are we ready now to have the witnesses brought in, please.

14 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the next witness for the Prosecution will

15 be Witness AV.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, who has protective

17 measures, so we have to pull down the blinds to have the witness brought

18 in, after which we will have them lifted again.

19 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, while we're waiting, the testimony of

20 Witness AV will address his personal particulars, the witness's detention

21 at the Omarska camp, conduct of Milojica Kos at the Omarska camp, the

22 detention and the deaths of Azur Jakupovic and Edvin Dautovic at the

23 Omarska camp, and the identification of the accused, Milojica Kos.

24 [The witness entered court].

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good day, Witness AV. We're

Page 5842













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14 and French transcripts.












Page 5843

1 going to call you by this pseudonym in accordance with the protective

2 measures granted you. Can you hear me?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You're going to read the solemn

5 declaration given to you by the usher, please.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated, please.

11 The usher is going to show you a piece of paper which should have

12 your name on it. You're going to tell us "yes" or "no" whether what is,

13 indeed, your name.

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for coming.

16 You will be answering questions put to you by Mr. Saxon, who is standing

17 to your right, and after that will come questions from the Defence counsel

18 and the Judges.

19 But first, Mr. Saxon, you have the floor.

20 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Examined by Mr. Saxon:

22 Q. Good morning, Witness AV. Are you from the Prijedor region?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What is your ethnicity?

25 A. I'm a Bosnian Muslim.

Page 5844

1 Q. Were you detained by Serb forces on the 3rd of June, 1992?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Later that day, were you taken to the Omarska camp?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. About what time did you arrive at Omarska?

6 A. In the evening of the same day.

7 Q. In which part of the Omarska camp were you placed that evening?

8 A. In the part known as the garage.

9 Q. Was that the garage at the north end of the restaurant building?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Witness AV --

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think perhaps it would be

13 useful for everyone who speaks to have some technical instructions.

14 Madam Registrar, can you tell us the measures we need to take

15 because of the voice distortion system?

16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.

17 Because we have the voice distortion, so when you ask a question,

18 when the witness is answering the question, always switch off; otherwise,

19 it will leak out the witness's voice. And for those who sitting in the

20 ground want to listen to the real voice of the witness, please switch to

21 channel 8 in B/C/S. Thank you.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think we must make it clear.

23 After putting your question, it is necessary to switch off. Not before,

24 of course. Please proceed.

25 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. Just to clarify, this witness

Page 5845

1 also has voice distortion, and I'm trying to understand who the registrar

2 is referring to when she says "listening to the real voice of the

3 witness."

4 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry. For the accused and Defence counsel, if

5 you want to listen to what the witness says in B/C/S, then switch to

6 channel 8. But for Mr. Saxon, when you want to listen to the witness, you

7 don't have to switch the channel, but you have to switch off the

8 microphone when he is answering the question.

9 MR. SAXON: Thank you very much.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please continue, Mr. Saxon.


12 Q. Witness AV, what happened when you and the other prisoners in the

13 garage would go to the other end of the restaurant -- would go to the

14 other end of the building, to the restaurant, to eat?

15 A. We would go from the garage through the door of the restaurant to

16 the area where we ate. We were often stopped at the entrance to the

17 restaurant building and beaten there.

18 Q. And who would be beating the prisoners at the entrance to the

19 restaurant building?

20 A. Mostly the personnel, the guards who were guarding the camp in

21 Omarska.

22 Q. And how frequently were prisoners beaten on the way to the

23 restaurant?

24 A. I think every time we went to eat.

25 Q. Witness AV, about how long were you detained in the garage?

Page 5846

1 A. About three weeks.

2 Q. After your confinement in the garage, what part of the camp were

3 you transferred to?

4 A. I was transferred to the "white house," the room on the left.

5 Q. So that would have been sometime in the end of June 1992?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When you arrived at the "white house," who did you see there?

8 A. I saw there men who were in poor physical condition. Among them I

9 knew personally Anes Medunjanin.

10 Q. How did you know Anes Medunjanin?

11 A. I knew him from Kozarac. He lived in the centre of Kozarac.

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 Q. And what, if anything, did you notice about the physical condition

15 of Anes Medunjanin when you arrived at the "white house"?

16 A. He was in poor physical condition, undernourished. He had an

17 entrance and exit wound in his back.

18 Q. While you were in the "white house," did you come to know a man

19 named Faruk Hrncic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And what were you able to observe about the physical condition of

22 Faruk Hrncic?

23 A. Faruk had very grave injuries on his head from blows. These

24 wounds were infected and there were like little worms coming out of these

25 wounds. Faruk tried to pull his skin over those injuries so as to cover

Page 5847

1 them up and help them heal, and there was lymph dripping out of those

2 sores.

3 Q. Did you come to know a man named Azur Jakupovic?

4 A. Yes. Azur Jakupovic was also lying in the same room.

5 Q. What, if anything, were you able to observe about the condition of

6 Azur Jakupovic?

7 A. The mental condition of Azur Jakupovic was poor. He was in a

8 coma, and at times he wasn't aware of what he was doing. He also had an

9 entry and exit wound from a shot, I think, on his left thigh.

10 Q. While you were confined in the "white house," did you come to know

11 a man named Edo?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And did you know this Edo from before the war?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Was Edo a name or a nickname?

16 A. A nickname.

17 Q. Now, in the part of Bosnia where you're from, what was the

18 nickname Edo usually short for?

19 A. Edvin or Edin.

20 Q. At that time, when you arrived in the "white house" and were

21 confined there, did you know Edo's true name?

22 A. I did not know it.

23 Q. What did this man who was known as Edo look like at that time?

24 A. He was about 20 years old. He said he had a sister in the

25 restaurant, and he often peeped out of the window of that room towards the

Page 5848

1 restaurant to catch a glance of his sister.

2 Q. Did Edo ever tell you the name of his sister who was in the

3 restaurant?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What was the name?

6 A. Edna.

7 Q. Just so the record is clear, when you say that, according to Edo,

8 he had a sister in the restaurant. Did he mean that his sister Edna was

9 confined in the restaurant?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You say that Edo was about 20 years old. Can you describe him in

12 any other ways?

13 A. He was in poor physical condition, undernourished. He had

14 dysentery, and he had to urinate very frequently.

15 Q. Can you describe what he looked like? His hair? His face?

16 A. His eyes were deep-set; his hair was oily; his body was weak.

17 Q. What colour was his hair and what colour were his eyes?

18 A. His eyes were brown. His hair was black.

19 Q. Did this man known as Edo ever tell you where he was from?

20 A. He said he was from the area known as Zeger in Prijedor.

21 Q. At that time when you spoke with Edo in the "white house" in 1992,

22 did Edo ever tell you his true name or his last name?

23 A. Yes. Edvin Dautovic.

24 Q. Edo told you that his true name was Edvin Dautovic?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5849

1 Q. Which room in the "white house" did you go to?

2 A. I went to the first room on the left.

3 MR. SAXON: Your Honour --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Mike, please.

5 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, if I could impose on the usher to place

6 one of these photographs by the witness. I have marked them as

7 Prosecution's Exhibit 3/137. I'm going to ask the witness to annotate it,

8 and copies can be distributed to the Judges and the Defence.

9 Mr. Usher, I'm sorry to bother you again. Could that photograph

10 be placed on the ELMO, please.

11 Q. Witness AV, during your detention --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Mike, please.

13 MR. SAXON: I apologise.

14 Q. Witness AV, during your detention in the Omarska camp, did you

15 become familiar with a guard known as Krle?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was Krle a name or a nickname?

18 A. A nickname.

19 Q. How often would you see Krle in the Omarska camp?

20 A. I would see him often. He would come to the "white house,"

21 sometimes he would be standing at the very entrance to the restaurant, and

22 frequently he would take people for interrogation.

23 Q. When, if ever, did you see Krle in the "white house"?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I don't think you understood my question. My question was, when,

Page 5850

1 if ever, did you see Krle in the "white house"?

2 A. Yes, I did see him. It was a day when he came with two guards,

3 entered the room marked A3. They took out a person called Nevers Music,

4 and they took him from A3 to A5.

5 Q. Can we go a little bit more slowly, Witness AV.

6 Where were you that day? Can you point on that photograph that's

7 next to you? Where were you?

8 A. I was lying under the window of Room A3, whereas the person who

9 was taken out to Room A5 before me was lying near the corner of Room A3,

10 here.

11 Q. Witness AV, when you first saw Krle that day in the "white house,"

12 was it morning, evening, or night?

13 A. It was daytime. It was sunny. Visibility was good. It was

14 daytime.

15 Q. When you first saw the man you knew as Krle, where was he

16 standing?

17 A. He was standing at the doorway of Room A3.

18 Q. Witness AV, could you please take up the pen that's in front of

19 you and write the letters "KOS" where you saw Krle that day, and the

20 letters "AV" where you were lying in the room.

21 A. [Marks].

22 Q. When Krle was standing at the doorway, what, if anything, did he

23 say?

24 A. He said that he didn't want to enter Room A3 because the room

25 stank from the detainees who were there, and it was frequently -- chlorine

Page 5851

1 was frequently used that we poured on the floor.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, excuse me for

3 interrupting, but there is a difference between the letters you asked him

4 to write and the letters he actually wrote down, so will you check that,

5 please.

6 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Witness AV, could you take your pen again, please, and write the

8 letters -- and scratch out what you just wrote at the doorway to the

9 entrance of Room A3. Scratch out just what you wrote at the doorway,

10 please. Scratch out the letters, please. Thank you. And could you write

11 the letters or the nickname Krle at that same spot.

12 A. [Marks].

13 Q. What happened after Krle said that he didn't want to come into the

14 room because it smelled?

15 A. One of the guards hit my leg and told me to go to Room A5.

16 Q. And did you go to Room A5?

17 A. Yes. I ran to Room A5 in fear.

18 Q. And what happened to you when you were in Room A5?

19 A. I was beaten for about 15 minutes, and I was released when the

20 guard said that someone was coming, which means they ran out of Room A5,

21 too.

22 Q. Thank you, Witness AV. You can put that pen down now, please.

23 Witness AV, did you see Krle again that day?

24 A. No.

25 MR. SAXON: If that photo could now be removed, please. Thank

Page 5852

1 you.

2 Q. Witness AV, you mentioned that there was a detainee known as Edo,

3 whose name was Edvin Dautovic, in the "white house"; and you also

4 mentioned a man named Azur Jakupovic who was detained with you in the

5 "white house." What happened to Azur Jakupovic and the man you knew as

6 Edo or Edvin Dautovic?

7 A. One night, Azur Jakupovic was called out by the guards to come out

8 of the "white house."

9 Q. And did Azur Jakupovic leave the "white house"?

10 A. He ran out.

11 Q. Did Azur Jakupovic return?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Later that night, what happened to the man known as Edo or Edvin

14 Dautovic?

15 A. Edvin, Edo, wanted to follow him immediately because he was

16 bleeding and, because of the dysentery, he wanted to urinate outside.

17 Q. And eventually, did Edo leave the "white house"?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did Edo return to the "white house" that night?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Witness AV, what happened the next morning?

22 A. The next morning, at dawn, one of the persons who were lying in

23 the room, called Samir Krkic, and I, went out to carry out a part of the

24 order we had received from the guard who entered the room.

25 Q. What was the order that you had received?

Page 5853













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14 and French transcripts.












Page 5854

1 A. Come out so that we can do something.

2 Q. And when you left the "white house" that morning, what, if

3 anything, did you see?

4 A. I saw the bodies of Azur Jakupovic and Edvin Dautovic that were

5 lying just in front of the "white house."

6 Q. Just so the record is clear, were these bodies lying in front of

7 the "white house" or to the side of the "white house"?

8 A. In front of the "white house."

9 MR. SAXON: Mr. Usher, if I could ask you again to place a copy of

10 the photograph on the ELMO beside the witness. This photograph has been

11 marked as Prosecution 3/138, and I've provided copies for the others

12 present. Thank you.

13 Q. Witness AV --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

15 A. I have no interpretation.

16 Q. Witness AV, can you look at the photograph that's been placed to

17 your right. Can you see the "white house" on that photograph?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you pick up the pen that's next to you and mark the spot where

20 you saw the two bodies lying, with an "AJ" for Azur Jakupovic, and a

21 letter "E" for Edo.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. How was the lighting that morning?

24 A. Though it was still dark, the bodies were lit by floodlights.

25 Actually, by the headlights of yellow a van, a TAM van.

Page 5855

1 Q. Were the headlights shining on the bodies when you saw them?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How did you know that the two men were dead? What did the bodies

4 look like?

5 A. The bodies were cold. The colour of the complexion was

6 yellowish. Their heads were limp, as were other limbs, and they gave no

7 signs of life.

8 Q. What, if anything, did you and Samir do with those two bodies?

9 A. In a haste, we loaded them onto a truck -- onto a van.

10 Q. And when you and Samir were loading the body of Edo, what did you

11 or Samir say?

12 A. "This is Edo."

13 Q. And who said that?

14 A. Samir Krkic did.

15 MR. SAXON: That photograph could now be removed, please. Thank

16 you.

17 Q. Witness AV, can you describe how the man that you knew as Krle in

18 the Omarska camp looked when you saw him in 1992?

19 A. He was a tall man, maybe 1 metre 80, up to 1 metre 90. He had

20 dark eyes and dark hair.

21 Q. How was Krle's build?

22 A. He was rather heavy set, had very wide shoulders and strong arms.

23 Q. About how old was Krle in 1992?

24 A. Between 28 and 30 years of age.

25 Q. And how would Krle be dressed in the camp?

Page 5856

1 A. Usually he wore a camouflage uniform, both the trousers and the

2 upper part.

3 Q. Witness AV, since your detention in the Omarska camp, have you

4 learned the true name of the man that you knew as Krle?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And what is that name?

7 A. Milojica Kos.

8 Q. How did you learn that name?

9 A. I learned it from the people who lived in the vicinity of his

10 village, that is, the people who were from his part of the country.

11 Q. Have you seen any photographs of Mr. Kos, or Krle, since you left

12 the Omarska camp?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When?

15 A. I saw him in a documentary programme in 1994 and also on a

16 satellite channel of the BH television a month ago, approximately.

17 Q. Although eight years have passed since your confinement in the

18 Omarska camp, do you think that you could identify the person that you

19 knew as Krle today?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Witness AV, could you please look around the courtroom to

22 determine if you can identify the person who you referred to in your

23 testimony as Krle.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you point to Krle and describe what he is wearing, please.

Page 5857

1 A. He's wearing a grey suit. He's the individual sitting next to one

2 of the guards, the security.

3 Q. Which row is the individual sitting in?

4 A. In the second row.

5 Q. What do you mean by "the second row"?

6 A. The row that is against the wall, the back row.

7 Q. And when you say that Krle is sitting next to one of the guards,

8 is Krle to the right of one of the guards or to the left of one of the

9 guards?

10 A. Looking from where I am, to the left.

11 Q. Is there any doubt in your mind that the person you've just

12 identified is the person you knew in the Omarska camp as Krle?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you explain that doubt, please.

15 A. No, there is no doubt whatsoever.

16 MR. SAXON: If the record could please reflect a positive

17 identification of the accused Mr. Kos.

18 Your Honour, at this time I have no further questions.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.

20 Mr. Krstan Simic, what is the cross-examination going to look

21 like?

22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness will be

23 cross-examined only by Defence counsel of Mr. Kos. The other counsel will

24 have no questions for the witness.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Simic.

Page 5858

1 Mr. Nikolic -- oh, Mr. O'Sullivan. Mr. O'Sullivan, your witness.

2 I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I think that something has to be

3 done about this noise. Either we're going to have a break, or the problem

4 is going to be solved.

5 Madam Registrar, are there any measures that can be taken to

6 alleviate the problem?

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, the usher has gone to check it out and to stop

8 them.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Is there anyone at this Tribunal

10 who knows that there are hearings going on at this time of the day in the

11 building? I believe that the usher has reached the destination. Let us

12 try and proceed.

13 Mr. O'Sullivan, please continue -- or begin.

14 I'm sorry, but I really think we will have to have a break. We

15 will wait for the arrival of the usher who, I hope, will know the answer.

16 For the record, we are not going to have a break, although we

17 might wish to do so.

18 Yes, Madam Registrar.

19 THE REGISTRAR: I'm happy to inform the Chamber that our usher

20 successfully stopped them.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So perhaps for next time, since

22 Mr. Usher is very efficient, next time we won't even have to ask him to do

23 that, he can do it on his own.

24 Let us try and continue. I hope that this problem will be solved

25 appropriately. We have to work sometimes in very difficult conditions.

Page 5859

1 Mr. O'Sullivan, please proceed.

2 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. O'Sullivan:

4 Q. Good morning, sir.

5 A. Good morning.

6 Q. My name is Eugene O'Sullivan, and I'm a lawyer from Canada, and

7 I'd like to ask you a few questions about your testimony.

8 You testified that you were in Room A3 when a guard hit your leg

9 and you ran to Room A5. Do you recall that?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. O'SULLIVAN: And for the record, I'm referring to Prosecution

12 Exhibit 3/137.

13 Q. When you arrived in Room A5, were there other detainees in that

14 room?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And you say you were beaten in Room A5; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Krle was not in Room A5 when you were beaten, correct?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And Krle was not in the corridor when you exited Room A5, correct?

21 A. I couldn't see whether he was in the corridor because the door had

22 been closed by then.

23 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No further questions, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

25 Mr. O'Sullivan.

Page 5860

1 Mr. Saxon, any additional questions for the witness?

2 MR. SAXON: No, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Judge Fouad Riad, do you have

4 any questions for the witness?

5 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, Mr. President.

6 Questioned by the Court:

7 JUDGE RIAD: Witness AV, good morning. Can you see me? Can you

8 hear me?

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE RIAD: Good. Just, I want to ask you about Azur and Ado

11 whom you saw lying down with heads limp, and then you loaded them. Can

12 you recall who called them out that night?

13 A. No.

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5861

1 JUDGE RIAD: Were they taken out there for other purposes? For

2 interrogation, for beating, or for what?

3 A. Only to beat people.

4 JUDGE RIAD: And they came back?

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE RIAD: And how was Nevers Music when he came back?

7 A. He was bleeding from his mouth and he was holding his stomach.

8 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

10 Judge Riad.

11 Madam Judge Wald has the floor.

12 JUDGE WALD: Witness AV, I just want to make sure that I've got

13 some of the things that you testified to straight. You said that you saw

14 Krle often in the "white house," sometimes standing at the entrance to the

15 restaurant, sometimes taking people in for interrogation, and you told us

16 about his taking Music from A3 to A5.

17 Did you ever see Krle present when a detainee was being abused or

18 beaten in any of those places?

19 A. I was there, standing in front of them. I was made to slap other

20 detainees, pursuant to his order.

21 JUDGE WALD: That wasn't anything you testified about on direct,

22 was it? I mean, was that -- is this something new? I don't recall your

23 having told us about that before.

24 A. No.

25 JUDGE WALD: So you are telling us now that there was a time when

Page 5862

1 you saw when -- let me say, when he ordered you to slap somebody else? Is

2 that what you're telling us?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE WALD: Incidentally, I believe that the counsel should have

5 the opportunity to re-cross on that particular answer.

6 The second question I have is when you said you were being beaten

7 in A5, and then you said that the guards said, "Someone is coming," and

8 they ran out, do you have any idea who that someone was who they were

9 afraid to have find out that they were beating detainees?

10 A. No.

11 JUDGE WALD: Was it your impression at that particular incident

12 that these guards, who you said were under the influence or you thought

13 were under the influence of alcohol, were beating for their own pleasure

14 as opposed to being ordered by anyone to beat?

15 A. On their own, yes.

16 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. O'Sullivan. "He ordered you to slap

18 something else." "Yes." Do you have a question?

19 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, I do, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Go ahead, please.

21 MR. O'SULLIVAN: May I have a moment to speak to my colleagues?

22 [Defence counsel consult]

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. O'Sullivan. Ask your

24 question, please, but only in relation to the issue that was brought up.

25 Please do not take advantage of the situation.

Page 5863

1 Re-cross-examined by Mr. O'Sullivan:

2 Q. Witness, you said that Krle ordered you to slap someone; is that

3 correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How did that make you feel?

6 A. I felt that I simply had to do it without any objection.

7 Q. Is that something you would characterise as being rather traumatic

8 and dramatic for you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Certainly that's something you'd never forget, correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You met with the Prosecution in October 1994, didn't you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Over a two-day period?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you gave a statement?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And that was over two working days. Is that a fair account?

19 A. I can't remember.

20 Q. But more or less two full days, parts of days?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And before you -- and you signed that statement?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Before you signed it, you had it read back to you in the Bosnian

25 language by the interpreter who was present, correct?

Page 5864













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14 and French transcripts.












Page 5865

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When you were being interviewed over that period in October, you

3 spoke freely?

4 A. According to my recollection.

5 Q. And no one stopped you from speaking?

6 A. No.

7 Q. And no one hurried you?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Sir, in that statement, you never mentioned that anybody ever

10 ordered you to slap anyone; isn't that correct?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Well, maybe I should show you your statement. Are you saying that

13 in your statement you did say that someone ordered you to slap someone?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. But you never said that Krle ordered you to slap someone?

16 A. No.

17 Q. He never ordered you to slap anyone, did he?

18 A. No.

19 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No further questions.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, do you have any

21 additional questions?

22 MR. SAXON: May I ask the Court's indulgence, please?

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] [No translation]

25 Re-examined by Mr. Saxon:

Page 5866

1 Q. Witness AV, do you recall while you were in the "white house"

2 someone ordering you to slap someone else?

3 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, yes.

5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the subject of the

6 examination was whether Mr. Kos had issued such an order. This is going

7 beyond the scope of the examination that was conducted so far.

8 We have the record. We have the transcript. This is completely

9 new examination. This was not subject of the examination-in-chief, the

10 cross-examination, or the re-cross.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, can we hear your

12 response to the objection, please.

13 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I believe it is within the scope of the

14 Prosecution's redirect to ask this witness if he can recall today the name

15 of the person who told him to slap another detainee at Omarska.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The question now is simply and

17 only to see whether Krle ordered the witness to slap another detainee.

18 That is the only question, so please keep to that question only.

19 Yes, I'm sorry. Mr. O'Sullivan, I think the question is whether

20 we should know, not to conclude. But please go ahead, Mr. O'Sullivan.

21 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, in my cross-examination I put the

22 witness -- the question to the witness, and he answered. I submit the

23 matter is closed.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In any event, I'm going to ask

25 the witness a question. So no questions, Mr. Saxon. You may sit down,

Page 5867

1 and I'm going to put the question.

2 Further questioned by the Court:

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, when you answered the

4 question put to you by my distinguished colleague Judge Wald that Krle

5 ordered you to beat a detainee, what did you mean by saying that?

6 A. It was on another day, not that same day when I went to Room A5.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you meant that on another

8 day, any day, Krle ordered you to slap a prisoner; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you said at one point in

11 answer to a question by Judge Wald that Krle ordered you to beat. Then

12 you answered Mr. O'Sullivan, the Defence attorney, that Krle did not order

13 you to beat. What is your final answer?

14 A. Krle did not give the order to those two in Room A5 to beat me.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let's leave it there.

16 Witness, you have just completed your testimony here in the

17 Tribunal. Thank you very much for coming. Don't move. I'm going to ask

18 the usher to lower the blinds so that you may leave the courtroom.

19 [The witness withdrew]

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, I think the next

21 witness is Edin Ganic, is it not?

22 MR. SAXON: That's correct, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In any event, we will have a

24 break first, and I'm going to ask the registrar to tell the usher that,

25 over a period of 30 minutes, the workers can make the technical

Page 5868

1 arrangements necessary.

2 --- Recess taken at 12.37 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 1.12 p.m.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated. Before giving

5 the floor to Mr. Keegan, I think I need to give the floor to Mr. Saxon

6 because he has at least two exhibits to tender into evidence.

7 MR. SAXON: Thank you very much, Your Honour. At this time, the

8 Prosecution would move for the admission of exhibits -- at this time, the

9 Prosecution would tender for admission Exhibits 3/137 and 3/138. Thank

10 you.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The Defence?

12 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No objection, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. The

14 exhibits are admitted into evidence.

15 Mr. Keegan, you have the floor.

16 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour. The Prosecution would call

17 Mr. Edin Ganic to the stand, please.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Edin Ganic.

20 Can you hear me?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You are going to read the solemn

23 declaration given to you by the usher.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 5869

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Are you comfortable?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You have come here to testify,

8 and Mr. Keegan will be asking you questions first and, after that, the

9 Defence attorneys and the Judges. But now you will be answering questions

10 put to you by Mr. Keegan.

11 Mr. Keegan, you have the floor, please.

12 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Examined by Mr. Keegan:

14 Q. Mr. Ganic, could you please state for the record your full name.

15 A. Edin Ganic.

16 Q. And what was your date of birth, sir?

17 A. 7th of August, 1961.

18 Q. And where were you born?

19 A. Prijedor.

20 Q. What was your ethnic group, sir?

21 A. Muslim.

22 Q. What level of education did you obtain?

23 A. I am a machine technician.

24 Q. And when was it that you got that diploma?

25 A. In 1980.

Page 5870

1 Q. Did you do your compulsory military service?

2 A. Yes, in 1981. I completed it in 1981; 1980-1981 therefore.

3 Q. Are you married?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And your wife's name please?

6 A. Sanela.

7 Q. Sir, what is your wife's ethnic background?

8 A. Her mother is a Serb and her father a Muslim.

9 Q. Do you have any children?

10 A. Two.

11 Q. Are they boys or girls?

12 A. Two boys.

13 Q. Sir, what type of work did you do prior to the conflict in

14 Prijedor in 1992?

15 A. I was a private entrepreneur and I worked together with my

16 father.

17 Q. What type of business did you have?

18 A. Construction work. We had a company for construction work.

19 Q. And what type of construction did you mostly engage in?

20 A. Mostly roads.

21 Q. Where did you live prior to that?

22 A. In Gomjenica.

23 Q. And where is Gomjenica?

24 A. Gomjenica is 3 to 5 kilometres from Prijedor. I don't know

25 exactly.

Page 5871

1 Q. Did your -- the other members of your family live near your

2 house?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. How many Muslims lived in the Gomjenica area?

5 A. In the area I lived in, there were about ten households.

6 Q. And the rest of the -- what was the majority ethnic group in

7 Gomjenica?

8 A. Serbs.

9 Q. In April 1992, what, if any, changes occurred in your area?

10 A. Yes. The SBS took power, and they started building checkpoints

11 along the roads.

12 Q. Who was it that manned these checkpoints, if you know?

13 A. I do. For instance, near my house, mostly Serbs, neighbours.

14 Also at the bridge on the river of Gomjenica, they were members of the

15 Crisis Staff.

16 Q. Did these checkpoints have any effect on your ability to conduct

17 your business and your everyday life?

18 A. Movement was restricted. It was not possible to move around

19 normally.

20 Q. Whose movement was restricted at these checkpoints?

21 A. The Muslims and Croats. In my case, only Muslims.

22 Q. After these checkpoints were established, were you and your father

23 able to continue your business?

24 A. No.

25 Q. In addition to the restrictions on freedom of movement, what, if

Page 5872

1 any, action was taken with respect to your family's property?

2 A. They looted everything. First of all, they took food stuffs and,

3 later, everything. Machines, trucks; everything.

4 Q. Now, you said "they looted everything." Who is "they"?

5 A. The Crisis Staff of Gomjenica, my good acquaintances and

6 neighbours.

7 Q. And who were the members of this Crisis Staff that you referred

8 to?

9 A. Two policemen. Sujica, I can't remember his first name, and my

10 neighbour Goran, together with the other inhabitants of that area, and a

11 man whose name was Surtof. I can't remember his first name. And there

12 was another one, Milenko Mijatovic, I think. He was the leader.

13 Q. You said they took, in addition to food stuffs, machines, trucks;

14 everything. What type of machines are you referring to?

15 A. They took the dredger on wheels, a bulldozer with tracks. They

16 also took away the engine and the pump from other dredger. And Tatic,

17 Luka, took our truck.

18 Q. Did you also have some regular automobiles, passenger automobiles?

19 A. Yes. I gave mine to my father's good friend, Slobodan Miskovic,

20 and the Passat was simply confiscated by the army.

21 Q. Now, when these vehicles and machines were taken, were you paid

22 for any of these?

23 A. No. Only I got a receipt from the Crisis Staff for a small truck.

24 Q. For one small truck?

25 A. Yes, a small truck.

Page 5873

1 Q. What about the other vehicles?

2 A. After the war, my father went to see this Luka Tatic who had taken

3 away the truck, and he paid for it. They agreed, and he paid for it. It

4 was an IPTF. He didn't, he didn't want to return the truck, but he gave

5 us money for it.

6 Q. And the remainder of the machinery and the vehicles you talked

7 about, did you receive any official documents with respect to the

8 confiscation, or did you ever receive payment for them?

9 A. No, they never paid for them. I never got anything.

10 Q. Mr. Ganic, when were the first members of your family arrested?

11 A. I don't remember the date exactly. My brother, my sister, and

12 brother-in-law. This was in June, I think.

13 Q. Was their arrest linked to any particular event that had occurred?

14 A. Yes. There was an attack on Prijedor.

15 Q. And how soon after the attack, if you know, were they arrested?

16 A. The same day, that same morning. Immediately.

17 Q. To your knowledge, were either your brother or your brother-in-law

18 involved in that attack?

19 A. No.

20 Q. What is your brother's name, please?

21 A. Elvis Ganic.

22 Q. Did you find out where your brother and sister were taken after

23 their arrest?

24 A. Yes. A good friend of mine, ten minutes later, called up and said

25 that he had seen them being put on buses.

Page 5874

1 Q. And did your friend tell you where they were taken?

2 A. No. He didn't know exactly. He said in an undefined direction.

3 Q. Were you later brought word about where your brother was?

4 A. Yes, a couple of days later.

5 Q. And who was it that told you about your brother?

6 A. Dado Mrdza told me about my brother, and a good friend of my

7 brother's who went to school with him, called Damir.

8 Q. Did you know this Dado Mrdza?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And how did you know him?

11 A. We would often meet in discos, in coffee bars. He was a good

12 dancer.

13 Q. Do you know where he was from?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Where was that?

16 A. From Tukovi, near Prijedor.

17 Q. How were Dado Mrdza and this Damir dressed when they came to see

18 you?

19 A. When they came for the first time, Dado Mrdza was wearing a

20 military police uniform, camouflage uniform, and Damir was wearing the

21 standard olive-grey uniform of the Yugoslav People's Army.

22 Q. The military police uniform, as you called it, a camouflage

23 uniform that Dado Mrdza was wearing, what was the main colour of that

24 camouflage?

25 A. Blue.

Page 5875













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14 and French transcripts.












Page 5876

1 Q. So it was a blue camouflage uniform?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Had you seen a uniform like that before the war?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you know what type of units used to wear that uniform?

6 A. The special military police.

7 Q. Did Damir and this Dado Mrdza tell you what they were doing within

8 the Serb forces, what their jobs were?

9 A. Yes, they told me.

10 Q. What was that?

11 A. Dado said he was a guard at Omarska, and Damir said he escorted

12 the buses to Omarska.

13 Q. Dado Mrdza said he was a guard at the Omarska camp?

14 A. That's what he told me.

15 Q. Did they offer any assistance for your brother on that first

16 occasion that they came to tell you about him?

17 A. Yes. The first time they came to offer help, as they were short

18 of food, the first time, they took some canned food and salamis.

19 Q. As far as you know, did they deliver that food to your brother?

20 A. They did. Later, in Trnopolje, he said that he had received it.

21 Q. Did either of those two men return sometime after that with more

22 information about your brother?

23 A. Yes. Dado Mrdza returned.

24 Q. And on this second occasion, what did he tell you?

25 A. That he could organise for my brother to be taken out of Omarska.

Page 5877

1 Q. And how did he say that was possible?

2 A. In the trunk of a car he said it would be possible.

3 Q. Did he tell you who would arrange to take your brother out of the

4 camp?

5 A. He told me that for a couple of thousand German marks, he can

6 arrange with the commander or the deputy commander of the camp, whose name

7 was Kvocka, but I'm not sure. I don't know the man.

8 Q. And did you engage in arrangements to have your brother taken out

9 of the camp?

10 A. Yes. I talked to him, and I told him that I didn't have any money

11 at the moment.

12 Q. Did you continue to make arrangements?

13 A. Yes. Yes, I did. I told him that I would get the money and that

14 he should try and arrange it in the meantime with Kvocka for him to be

15 taken out of Omarska.

16 Q. And was your brother, in fact, taken out of the camp?

17 A. After everything had been arranged, Kvocka was replaced, and later

18 on it was impossible.

19 Q. Did your brother later tell you about Dado Mrdza and his

20 activities in the Omarska camp?

21 A. Yes, he did. He participated in beatings of all the detainees who

22 were there. However, he was fair to my brother.

23 Q. Did you hear other information about what crimes Mrdza may have

24 committed?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5878

1 Q. And what was that?

2 A. I heard a number of really terrible things. For example, that he

3 participated in a convoy that was going to Travnik. He was there as an

4 escort, and he killed an acquaintance of mine there.

5 Q. Do you know where the murder occurred on that convoy, what area?

6 A. Yes. At the Vlasic mountain, near Travnik.

7 Q. Now, in addition to this Damir and Dado Mrdza, did any other

8 person bring you information about your brother?

9 A. Yes. Nikica Janjic did.

10 Q. And how did you know Nikica Janjic?

11 A. We went to school together.

12 Q. Did Janjic do anything to help your brother that you know of?

13 A. Yes. I gave him the money, for the money to be taken to my

14 brother, just as I did to Mrdza.

15 Q. And as far as you know, did he give your brother the money?

16 A. Yes. Everything was correct and fair. He received the money.

17 Q. To your knowledge, did Nikica Janjic give your brother anything

18 more than the money you gave to be given to your brother?

19 A. Yes. He gave him his money.

20 Q. Okay. You said he gave him his money. Did you mean by that that

21 Nikica Janjic gave your brother some of Janjic's own money as well?

22 A. Yes, his own money.

23 Q. And was it your brother who told you that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, did Janjic tell you what he, that is Janjic, was doing in the

Page 5879

1 camp?

2 A. Yes, he did.

3 Q. What did he tell you?

4 A. He went to Omarska on several occasions accompanied by Zigic when

5 they mistreated Enver Beganovic and Asaf Kapetanovic.

6 Q. Did Janjic tell you why they mistreated Emir Beganovic?

7 A. Yes, he did. He told me that a couple of months before the war,

8 Beganovic knocked a couple of his teeth out with his rifle butt.

9 Q. The translation says that, English translation, says that,

10 "Beganovic knocked a couple of his teeth," I assume that means Janjic,

11 "out with his rifle butt"?

12 A. Yes, Janjic's teeth. No, with a pistol handle, actually.

13 Q. Now, you said that he indicated he went to the camp with, Omarska

14 camp with Zigic. Do you know the full name of this person Zigic that

15 you're referring to?

16 A. Zoran Zigic, yes.

17 Q. Now, Janjic ever help you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And how so?

20 A. That is what I learnt later on. He asked Zigic not to kill me.

21 Q. And who did you hear that from?

22 A. From Janjic in a cafe. It was in the month of September -- no,

23 August when he found me at home for the third time.

24 Q. When who found you at home for the third time?

25 A. Zoran Zigic.

Page 5880

1 Q. And when did Janjic tell you about the fact that he had asked

2 Zigic not to kill you?

3 A. When everything was finished, the third time I mean, when the

4 military police -- I mean, after he had mistreated me and when the

5 military police took me to hospital, he came to me and he told me that.

6 Q. Okay, we'll come back to that point later.

7 Do you know what happened to Janjic?

8 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, we didn't understand the witness.


10 Q. The interpreters didn't understand the witness's answer. Can you

11 repeat again, do you know what happened to Janjic?

12 A. He committed suicide.

13 Q. Do you know when that happened? Do you recall?

14 A. Three or four years ago. I don't know exactly. I can't remember.

15 Q. Mr. Ganic, when were you arrested?

16 A. I was arrested in late June, on the 24th, 25th, or maybe 26th.

17 Q. And that was 1992?

18 A. Yes, 1992.

19 Q. Now, who, if anybody -- excuse me, who was it that was arrested

20 with you, if anyone?

21 A. All Muslims from my village were arrested. They were all

22 relatives and cousins of mine.

23 Q. Now, you said, the answer indicates, all Muslims from your

24 village. Was it everybody who was arrested?

25 A. Yes. Actually, no, but the majority.

Page 5881

1 Q. Were women and children arrested as well?

2 A. No.

3 Q. So when you say almost everybody or the majority, you're talking

4 of men?

5 A. Yes, of men.

6 Q. Who was it that arrested you?

7 A. The Crisis Staff from Gomjenica. My neighbours, the people from

8 my village.

9 Q. Are these the same individuals who you referred to earlier that

10 manned that checkpoint on the bridge?

11 A. Yes, the same persons.

12 Q. Once you were arrested -- at the time you were arrested, was there

13 any beating or maltreatment of the individuals who were arrested?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Where were you taken after you were arrested?

16 A. After they had rounded us up, they took us to SUP in Prijedor.

17 Q. And what, if anything, happened at the SUP?

18 A. Sujica -- that is his surname is Sujica, I don't remember his name

19 -- went to the SUP with some papers, and he came back and told us that we

20 were to go further on to Keraterm, that Prijedor had no jurisdiction for

21 that.

22 Q. Now during the time that you were at the SUP, did you or anyone

23 else, any of the other people who were arrested, get out of the van?

24 A. No, we didn't get out of the van. There was only a reserve

25 policeman who came to us. He opened the door of the van. His intention

Page 5882

1 was probably to beat us up, but then he saw me there and he said, "Gane,

2 what are you doing here?"

3 Q. Did you know the name of this person?

4 A. Yes, I do. Dragan Saponja.

5 Q. And after Saponja talked to you, did he leave the van?

6 A. He never actually entered the van, he merely opened the door. The

7 escort was inside in the van. Yes, he left.

8 Q. And from there, were you taken to Keraterm?

9 A. Yes, that is correct. I was taken to Keraterm.

10 Q. And what happened upon your arrival at Keraterm camp?

11 A. When we arrived in Keraterm camp, we had to show our identity

12 cards or some other identification papers. They had a kind of register

13 with them.

14 Q. Did anyone write down the identity of the people who had been

15 arrested from your village?

16 A. Yes. Everything was written down.

17 Q. Did they read out the names or call out the names as they were

18 writing them down?

19 A. No. I didn't hear them.

20 Q. After they took your name and other information, what happened?

21 A. After that, they lined us up in a single line near the van. We

22 were made to put up our hands and to stand with our feet apart. They

23 searched us. They took our personal documents, some property, some

24 belongings that we had.

25 Q. Now, did you recognise any of the individuals who were searching

Page 5883

1 you and the other people who had been arrested?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And who did you recognise?

4 A. As regards the guards, I recognised, for example, Predrag Banovic,

5 whom I didn't know very well.

6 Q. Was there anyone else besides Predrag Banovic that you knew

7 there?

8 A. In that shift was his brother. I believe he was actually the

9 shift leader.

10 Q. While you were being searched, was anyone beaten?

11 A. Everyone was beaten up.

12 Q. And were you beaten?

13 A. Yes. Banovic beat me.

14 Q. And do you know which Banovic it was?

15 A. Predrag.

16 Q. And how did he beat you?

17 A. I was standing, facing the van, and he was hitting me on my back,

18 on my head, on my back, and he also kicked me in my genitals in a very

19 brutal way.

20 Q. Now, when he was hitting you on your back and on your head, do you

21 know what he was beating you with?

22 A. I cannot remember at the moment, but I believe that he was using

23 the handle of his pistol, but I don't remember exactly.

24 Q. Now, you indicated that during the time you were searched,

25 personal effects and other things were taken from you or from the people

Page 5884

1 being searched. Was anything taken from you?

2 A. Yes. They took away my military identity card because I didn't

3 have the regular ID.

4 Q. Was anything else taken, any valuables?

5 A. Yes. They took all of my money. Since I was a Croatian citizen,

6 I didn't have any Bosnian documents aside from that military

7 identification card.

8 Q. And in addition to your money, was anything else taken from you at

9 that time?

10 A. Yes. I had to take off my jacket and my sneakers.

11 Q. And were they taken away from you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And do you know who took those things from you?

14 A. Banovic did. He simply took it away from me and probably sold it

15 afterwards, I don't know.

16 Q. Do you know what ethnic group Banovic and his brother belonged

17 to?

18 A. Serbs.

19 Q. After you were searched and beaten, where were you taken?

20 A. It was Banovic himself who took me to Room 1.

21 Q. And were any of the other members in your group also taken to

22 Room 1?

23 A. Yes, Sefik Hodzic was taken there as well, together with a man by

24 the name of Vahid, whose surname I can't remember.

25 Q. And what about your father?

Page 5885

1 A. My father was transferred to Room 2, together with all others.

2 Q. Now, were there any other prisoners in Room 1 when you were put in

3 there?

4 A. Yes. The room was packed. I could hardly walk into the room.

5 Q. Did you recognise any of the men who were in that room already?

6 A. I recognised many of them, yes.

7 Q. And the men that you recognised, what ethnic group or groups did

8 they belong to, if you know?

9 A. The majority of them were Muslims, but there were some Croats as

10 well.

11 Q. Was anyone called out of your room, that is, Room 1, that evening,

12 the first evening?

13 A. Yes. Sefik and Vahid were called out on the first night.

14 Q. Do you know who it was who called them out?

15 A. Banovic. Predrag, that is.

16 Q. Were you able to tell where they were taken once they were called

17 out?

18 A. They talked for a while. They were near the entrance, some 2 or 3

19 metres away from the entrance.

20 Q. Could you hear what they were talking about?

21 A. Yes. They were accused of having trained with Green Berets.

22 Q. And what did Sefik and Vahid say about those accusations?

23 A. At that time, since Banovic had a piece of paper, a list of sorts,

24 he accused them that they had had training near the village called Kurevo,

25 but they said that they had been in Vukovar as members of the special

Page 5886













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Page 5887

1 police of the JNA during that time.

2 Q. To your knowledge, did they produce anything to prove their claim

3 that they had been in Vukovar?

4 A. Yes. Sefik had his military ID with him.

5 Q. And what happened once Sefik showed Banovic his military ID?

6 A. There was a stamp of the military police of Belgrade, I believe,

7 on his military ID, to the effect that he had been in Vukovar at that

8 time, on duty.

9 Q. What did Banovic do after he saw that?

10 A. He told them -- I cannot recall his exact words, but that one of

11 them, that is -- he said, "One of us," so he probably meant one of the

12 soldiers, he told the soldier that no one could touch them while he was

13 there.

14 Q. Then what happened to Sefik and Vahid after that?

15 A. Nobody touched them. (redacted)

16 Q. After this incident with Banovic was over, were they brought back

17 to your room, that is, Vahid and Sefik?

18 A. Yes. Yes, they were brought back to our room.

19 Q. And for the remainder of the time that you were in the camp, to

20 your knowledge, were they ever physically mistreated or abused again?

21 A. No, they were not mistreated.

22 Q. Now, after these individuals were called out and returned, was

23 anyone else called out that night?

24 A. A man from Kozarac who used to be a teacher was called out.

25 Q. Do you know who called him out?

Page 5888

1 A. Predrag Banovic.

2 Q. And how do you know it was Predrag Banovic who called this teacher

3 out?

4 A. Well, his shift was on duty, and his was the worst shift. He

5 would unlock the rooms. He always had the keys.

6 Q. On that occasion, did you see Predrag Banovic call this teacher

7 out?

8 A. Yes, I saw him.

9 Q. After this teacher was called out, could you hear what was said

10 between Predrag Banovic and the teacher?

11 A. Together with Predrag Banovic, with his brother and a couple of

12 other guards or soldiers, the man was accused of having been a member of

13 the SDA, that is what they said, and also for some -- his involvement that

14 he had in weapon trade. I don't know exactly, but that's what they were

15 talking about.

16 Q. And you referred to the SDA. What do you know was the SDA?

17 A. Yes, it's a political party in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the party for

18 democratic actions that won the elections.

19 Q. And was that party associated with the Bosnian Muslims as the

20 national party for the Bosnian Muslims?

21 A. Yes, that is correct.

22 Q. After these accusations, were you able to see what happened to

23 this teacher?

24 A. Yes, I could. He was taken away. He passed by Room 1, and he was

25 tied to a construction machine. I believe it was an excavator.

Page 5889

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Stojanovic?

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no objection, Your Honour,

3 but we no longer have the transcript on the screen. Nothing has been

4 recorded on the transcript, at least on our screen.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you very much,

6 Mr. Stojanovic. I believe there is a problem indeed. We do not have the

7 transcript. My screen doesn't have the transcript either, so we do not

8 see anything that has just been said. I think that the transcript has

9 taken a break.

10 There's probably a minor technical problem which is going to be

11 solved shortly, at least I can see good will on the part of the

12 participants here. We need to be informed about what's going on. Oh,

13 it's started again.

14 Mr. Keegan, try to remember where you were, because we will have

15 to repeat something. A portion of your question and probably one of the

16 answers was not recorded on the transcript.

17 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll begin again with the

18 last full question that appears.

19 Q. Mr. Ganic, after this teacher was called out, could you hear what

20 was said between Predrag Banovic and this teacher?

21 A. Yes, I could. They accused him of being a member of the SDA

22 party, and he is from Kozarac, and that they had been involved in arms

23 deals, trading weapons for the Bosnian Muslims from Croatia.

24 Q. After this conversation took place, were you able to see what

25 happened to that teacher?

Page 5890

1 A. Yes. They tied him to a construction machine, an excavator.

2 Later they beat him up. They beat him to death.

3 Q. Mr. Ganic, first of all, how were you able to see and hear all of

4 this?

5 A. It was about five or six metres away from the room I was sleeping

6 in, and I was right next to the grille, to the railing on the window.

7 Q. Let's clarify that. What type of door was there on Room 1?

8 A. There was a railing like there is in any prison. I mean, it was

9 open. You could see through it.

10 Q. Are you indicating, then, that the door to Room 1 was actually

11 comprised of bars, as if in a gaol?

12 A. Yes, yes, vertical bars.

13 Q. And was there any other material covering that door?

14 A. No.

15 Q. So you were able to see through the bars and be able to hear what

16 was happening outside the room?

17 A. Yes, correct.

18 Q. Were you able to see who it was that was beating this teacher?

19 A. Yes; Predrag Banovic, his brother, and somebody else. These two

20 soldiers from Cirkin Polje with shaved heads. I don't know him, and I'm

21 just not able to remember their names.

22 Q. Were you able to see what, if anything, they were beating him

23 with?

24 A. Yes. Banovic had a baseball bat, and the others had telephone

25 cables, pipes; all kinds of objects.

Page 5891

1 Q. Now, what happened to this teacher on that evening after the

2 beating finished?

3 A. When it was over, two men from our room, upon their orders,

4 brought him back into the room. The man was half dead.

5 Q. Were you able to see the condition of that teacher from Kozarac

6 when he was brought back into the room?

7 A. Yes. He was lying right close by, a metre, metre and a half away.

8 Q. What did you see?

9 A. His jaw was swollen; he was spitting blood; he couldn't breathe.

10 Probably his jaw had been fractured.

11 Q. Did this man survive that beating that night?

12 A. That night, yes.

13 Q. And did you see him later called out, a few days later?

14 A. Yes, I think two days later.

15 Q. Now, earlier you mentioned Zoran Zigic who you said Janjic told

16 you about. Now, did you know Zoran Zigic before your time in Keraterm?

17 A. No, I had never seen him in my life.

18 Q. Did you have an occasion to hear, were you told, that he came to

19 Keraterm camp after your arrival there?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And who told you that?

22 A. Zoran, a taxi driver. They used to work together because Zoran

23 Zigic was a taxi driver.

24 Q. And this Zoran, do you recall his last name?

25 A. I can't remember his last name. I know where he lived, I just

Page 5892

1 can't remember his surname.

2 Q. Do you recall what his ethnic group was?

3 A. His father was a Croat, and his mother a Serb.

4 Q. And was this Zoran, the taxi driver, detained in your room, that

5 is, Room 1?

6 A. Yes. Yes, in Room 1.

7 Q. Did you also have a conversation with your father about Zoran

8 Zigic?

9 A. Yes. My father told me that he had seen him there, I think during

10 lunch.

11 Q. When you say that your father told you he had seen him there,

12 where is "there"?

13 A. I mean in the Keraterm camp.

14 Q. Now, did you have an occasion to meet Zoran Zigic in Keraterm

15 camp?

16 A. Yes, later.

17 Q. Now, prior to your actual meeting with him, did you hear about his

18 arrival in the camp?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And what, if any, reaction did the prisoners around you have when

21 they heard that Zoran Zigic was in the camp?

22 A. As I said, I was in Room 1. It was a room about 30 to 50 metres

23 long. I don't know exactly. What I'm saying, that it was a small room

24 for so many people. It was packed full, and there wasn't any room at all

25 when I arrived, but when he appeared that first night, half the room was

Page 5893

1 empty. People shrank from fear.

2 Q. What do you mean they shrank from fear and the room was half

3 empty?

4 A. What I'm trying to say is that they feared him terribly because he

5 had already killed a couple of people prior to that.

6 Q. And how do you know that?

7 A. The prisoners told me about it who had arrived there before me.

8 Q. And once Zigic arrived, what, if anything, happened?

9 A. He called out -- that was the time I saw him for the first time,

10 actually. He called out a man called Jovo. I think he was a Serb.

11 Q. And was this Jovo a prisoner?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And do you have any knowledge as to why he was a prisoner in the

14 camp, what he was accused of?

15 A. They accused him of being a member of the SDA, and some people

16 wanted to take his neighbours to the camp, and he tried to prevent them

17 from doing that.

18 Q. Now, you said that he called out Jovo. Who was it that called out

19 Jovo, if you know?

20 A. Zigic called him out.

21 Q. And how do you know that?

22 A. I know Banovic was with him. He unlocked the door, and when he

23 came in front of the bars, he said, "God be with you," and everyone had to

24 answer, "God be with you too, Hero." And then he said, "Jovo, you old

25 commie, get out."

Page 5894

1 Q. Now, this -- you said "he" came in front of the bars, "he" said,

2 "God be with you," and then "he" said, "Jovo, you old commie, come out."

3 Who's the "he" that you're referring to?

4 A. Mr. Zoran Zigic.

5 Q. Now, do you have any idea why he would called Jovo an "old

6 commie"? Do you know what that referred to?

7 A. Jovo was, so I heard from the other prisoners, that he was an old

8 communist, that he had been a partisan during the war.

9 Q. You said a war. Do you mean World War II?

10 A. Yes. I mean the Second World War, of course.

11 Q. Now, did Jovo respond to these call-outs?

12 A. Yes. He responded and he went out.

13 Q. After he left the room, could you see or hear what happened next?

14 A. Yes. They started beating him almost immediately. Banovic was

15 with them. The man started crying. I could hear his screams and the

16 blows.

17 Q. Were you able to see, from your position in Room 1, who was

18 beating Jovo?

19 A. At first it was Zoran Zigic and Predrag Banovic.

20 Q. Did they continue to beat Jovo in front of Room 1 or did they move

21 from the area?

22 A. No, they left. They moved away somewhere. I don't know where.

23 Q. After Jovo was beaten and taken away, did anyone else arrive in

24 the camp that you would later come to know?

25 A. Yes. Duca Knezevic came.

Page 5895

1 Q. At that time, did you know this Duca Knezevic?

2 A. No, I didn't know him.

3 Q. And how was it that you learned his name?

4 A. From the other prisoners. They told me. This friend of Zoran

5 Zigic's, who had mistreated and beaten people before I had come.

6 Q. Did they tell you his full name?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you recall it now?

9 A. I can't remember. I think it was Dusko or Dusan. I'm not quite

10 sure. I've forgotten the surname.

11 Q. That was his nickname?

12 A. Nickname, yes.

13 Q. After Duca arrived in the camp that day, did the prisoners say

14 anything about what was going to happen?

15 A. Yes, that the night would be a bloody one.

16 Q. After Duca arrived, was indeed someone called out of your room?

17 A. Yes. I think the teacher from Kozarac.

18 Q. And do you recall how he left the room?

19 A. They carried him out. He couldn't walk on his own.

20 Q. Do you know what happened to the teacher once he was taken out of

21 the room?

22 A. The next morning, he and Jovo were loaded onto a truck. They were

23 dead.

24 Q. How do you know that?

25 A. There was always someone in the sleeping room who had somebody --

Page 5896

1 some duties. For instance, we had to prepare the dishes for lunch, to

2 assist, and Room 2 had to help in cleaning the compound around the camp.

3 In Room 2, there were two of my neighbours, one of whom was a relative,

4 and they loaded both the bodies onto a truck.

5 Q. And your relative, did he tell you about the fact that he loaded

6 the bodies, the dead bodies of Jovo and this teacher from Kozarac onto the

7 truck?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. When the teacher was called out the night before after Duca had

10 arrived, did you see or hear anything that happened regarding that

11 teacher?

12 A. They started beating him. They dragged him out, actually, because

13 he couldn't walk, and they started beating him immediately.

14 Q. Did you see the teacher being beaten on that occasion?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were you able to see who was beating the teacher?

17 A. I couldn't say that. It didn't really interest me at the time.

18 Q. And what do you mean when you say it really didn't interest you at

19 the time?

20 A. The important thing for me at the time was to survive, and I

21 wasn't too interested about other people.

22 Q. What were you trying to do during the time that the teacher was

23 dragged from the room and was being beaten?

24 A. I really cannot recollect just now what exactly happened then.

25 Q. Did you make an effort to sit up, to look out the door, to be able

Page 5897













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Page 5898

1 to see exactly what was going on?

2 A. I was lying right next to the door. I could see everything.

3 Q. Were other prisoners called out later that evening?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you recall who was called out?

6 A. They called out Drago Tokmadzic, who was a policeman from Ljubija;

7 and Esad Islamovic -- I think it was Esad. I'm not sure -- also from

8 Ljubija. They were not in my sleeping room, but they were called out by

9 Zoran Laic.

10 Q. Now, how do you know that -- Zoran Laic, is that his name?

11 A. Yes, I think so. I know him. In fact, I saw him just now in

12 Prijedor.

13 Q. And how do you know it was he who called out Drago Tokmadzic and

14 this Islamovic?

15 A. Because I was sleeping 1 metre or a metre and a half away from the

16 entrance.

17 Q. Did you see Zoran Laic call these two men out?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. After they were called out, who, if anyone, was called out next?

20 A. I don't know exactly the order, but I think the Alisics, three of

21 them, cousins, from Sanski Most. I think they were called out. Then

22 later my father, the Alisic brothers, Zoran, and finally me.

23 Q. Now, do you know who it was that called out your father?

24 A. My father told me that it was Zoran Zigic and Predrag Banovic,

25 that they came to the door to fetch him.

Page 5899

1 Q. Now, when you refer to the Zoran, is that Zoran the taxicab driver

2 that you spoke of earlier?

3 A. Yes. He was in my sleeping room. I don't remember his surname.

4 Q. And do you remember or do you know who called out Zoran, the

5 taxicab driver?

6 A. Zoran Zigic called him out personally.

7 Q. And how do you know that?

8 A. I was a metre and a half away from the door. I saw it all and I

9 heard it.

10 Q. When Zoran the taxicab driver, the prisoner who was in your room,

11 was called out, were you able to hear what, if anything, was said to him,

12 what they wanted?

13 A. I think they were talking about money, as if he owed Zigic some

14 money.

15 Q. Do you know what, if anything, happened to Zoran the prisoner when

16 he was taken out?

17 A. He was beaten up. His right arm was broken. We were in hospital

18 together.

19 Q. Were you able to see who was beating?

20 A. No.

21 Q. The Alisic brothers, do you recall their names?

22 A. Yes. Edin Alisic, Armin Alisic, and the youngest was Fehim

23 Alisic.

24 Q. Do you know what happened to the Alisic brothers when they were

25 called out?

Page 5900

1 A. Later I saw them when they took me out. They were lying next to a

2 wall at the end of the Keraterm compound, beaten up.

3 Q. To your knowledge, did the three brothers survive the Keraterm

4 camp?

5 A. Yes, they survived. I later met them again in Trnopolje.

6 Q. And do you know what happened to the Alisic brothers once they

7 left Trnopolje? Did they all survive?

8 A. No. Edin was killed at Vlasic. Dado Mrdza killed him. That is

9 what his brother told me.

10 Q. Now, you indicated that you heard your father called out. Were

11 you able to see what happened once your father was called out?

12 A. No. I was in Room 1, and he was in Room 2.

13 Q. You indicated that you were also called out that evening.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Who was it that came and called you out?

16 A. Predrag Banovic.

17 Q. And did you respond to the call?

18 A. Yes, I responded and left the room, went out.

19 Q. Did you do anything before you left the room?

20 A. Yes. The other prisoners in the room gave me a thick jacket with

21 fur. It was a winter jacket.

22 Q. Why would you put on a thick winter jacket as it was late June?

23 A. Well, Zoran Zigic was outside and Duca, and we all knew that that

24 would be beating to death.

25 Q. Was the jacket used for protection?

Page 5901

1 A. Yes, yes, as protection from the blows.

2 Q. And this jacket was given to you by another prisoner in the room?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was that a fairly common occurrence, that the prisoners would give

5 other prisoners who were being called out jackets or other pieces of

6 clothing to use as padding?

7 A. Yes. People were to put on three or four or five jackets if they

8 had the time to put them on.

9 Q. When you left the room, did Predrag Banovic say anything to you,

10 where he was taking you?

11 A. Yes. He said that Zoran Zigic was waiting for me, and that he

12 would have a couple of questions for me.

13 Q. Did he tell you what the questions were going to be about?

14 A. Yes. They were interested most of all in money.

15 Q. Was there anything besides money that he mentioned?

16 A. Yes. All the time that is what they were inquiring about. I had

17 a new Suzuki motorcycle.

18 Q. When you were taken out by Predrag Banovic, were you beaten at

19 that time, that is, as you were walking away from the room?

20 A. No. Nobody touched me.

21 Q. And where were you taken to?

22 A. They took me right to the end of Keraterm where the garbage dump

23 used to be.

24 Q. And what sleeping room, if you recall, would have been the one

25 closest to the area where you were taken?

Page 5902

1 A. Number four because it went in order, one, two, three, four, so

2 the fourth.

3 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, I realise it's a couple of minutes

4 early, but before we get into the actual events that occurred once he met

5 up with Zoran Zigic, it might be appropriate to stop here and begin again

6 in the morning.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I think so, Mr. Keegan.

8 We're going to stop there for today.

9 Witness, we will be continuing tomorrow at 9.30. I'm going to ask

10 the usher to accompany you out.

11 So we'll meet again tomorrow at 9.30.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.29 p.m., to

13 be reconvened on Thursday, the 28th day of

14 September, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.