1 Thursday, 25 January 2001

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.22 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

6 Mr. Jovan Simic, can we hear what is happening to Mr. Kvocka.

7 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I approach the

8 accused?

9 [Defence counsel and accused confer]

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Jovan Simic.

11 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. Prcac is suffering

12 terrible pain. He's been suffering from 5.00 this morning. He can't see

13 very well. He has very severe headaches. He has taken his medication but

14 it doesn't seem to have helped. If you agree, we agree that the trial

15 continue without him, and we could contact the Registry to call in a

16 physician. I think that would be the right way to continue. Perhaps he

17 could have a rest, if that is agreeable to the Chamber.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, is there

19 anything you can do by way of assistance? Can we call the nurse or a

20 doctor, perhaps, to help Mr. Prcac?

21 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. President, I can call the nurse and see if she

22 could see him right away.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

24 Mr. Jovan Simic, we agree that Mr. Prcac be allowed to leave the

25 courtroom and receive medical assistance.

1 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have one more

2 point. May I accompany Mr. Prcac, at least to begin with, for purposes of

3 communication. Perhaps I could help him communicate with the nurse. And

4 I would return later on.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Masic is in the

6 courtroom so we can go ahead. You have permission to leave.

7 Madam Registrar.

8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

9 [Mr. J. Simic and Mr. Prcac leave courtroom]

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are going to resume the

11 proceedings with the testimony of the witness who testified yesterday, and

12 it is not the cross-examination yet. We have redirect by Mr. Krstan

13 Simic, and I can see Mr. Stojanovic on his feet.

14 Would you have the witness brought in, please, Mr. Usher.

15 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic. Just one moment, please, usher.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

17 Thank you for giving me the floor. Having consulted my colleagues, the

18 Defence of Zigic will not be asking any questions. So I would just like

19 to inform you of that.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. You have been given

21 the opportunity, though.

22 Mr. Usher, please have the witness shown in now.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 WITNESS: BRANE BOLTA [Resumed]

25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Bolta. Can

2 you hear me?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Yes, I

4 can hear you.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated. Let me

6 remind you that you are continuing your testimony under oath and you are

7 going to be answering questions put to you by Mr. Krstan Simic. Perhaps

8 you could approach the microphone. That's right.

9 Mr. Krstan Simic, you have the floor.

10 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Thank

11 you.

12 Re-examined by Mr. K. Simic: [Continued]

13 Q. Good morning to you too, Mr. Bolta.

14 A. Good morning.

15 Q. My learned colleague asked you yesterday during his

16 cross-examination the following, he said: Did you and your colleagues,

17 Tomo Stojakovic, the reservist whose name I forgot, opened the windows to

18 the door of the Black Meraja van, that is to say, the part envisaged for

19 the transport of persons taken into custody, the prisoners?

20 The official vehicle, in that portion, are there any windows at

21 all and can they be opened?

22 A. There are no windows and therefore no windows can be opened in

23 that part of the van.

24 Q. Mr. Bolta, in the official vehicle that we refer to as Black

25 Meraja, how is the question of ventilation regulated for persons being

1 transported and who are in that particular section of the van?

2 A. It was regulated by the manufacturers, by the factory, and has a

3 system of ventilation. And that is why we refer to it as the Black

4 Meraja. It is a special vehicle where ventilation has been incorporated

5 into the system.

6 Q. Once again, would you please make pauses between question and

7 answer, and perhaps you could take a look at the screen to see when the

8 court reporters and the interpreters have finished.

9 You were also asked whether you gave any water to the persons

10 transported from Keraterm to Omarska. And so I would like to ask you two

11 questions now. The first is: How far is Keraterm from Omarska? And the

12 second question: How long does it take to drive this distance from

13 Keraterm to the Omarska camp?

14 A. The distance between Keraterm to Omarska is about 25 kilometres.

15 And the route to Omarska, and the time it takes to reach Omarska is

16 between 25 to 30 minutes.

17 Q. When you made these two transports from the police station to

18 Omarska, did you stop anywhere else except Keraterm? Did you stop in

19 front of a cafe and leave the detainees in the van, and you yourself

20 leaving the van?

21 A. No.

22 Q. My learned colleague also asked you about the way in which the

23 distinction between the police station and police station departments, and

24 the standards that apply to both categories. And within that context, I'm

25 going to ask you the following question:

1 Who decides, who makes the decision as to where a station -- where

2 the police force will have a station and where it will have a department?

3 Under whose competence does that come?

4 A. It is under the competence of the Ministry or, rather, the

5 Minister for the Interior, or persons who he authorises. But usually it

6 is the minister himself who makes decisions of that kind.

7 Q. My learned colleague also asked you about the first time you went,

8 and you said that it was in mid-May and that you can't quite get your

9 bearings, but that you are certain that it was in May, because you

10 transported individuals whom you did not know.

11 Now, that first transport, the first transfer you made from

12 Keraterm, when you came from the police station to Omarska, can you link

13 that up to some other event perhaps for you to be able to pinpoint the

14 date? Roughly when your first arrival at Omarska took place.

15 A. Well, I couldn't tell you the exact date, but I know that an order

16 was received with respect to some problems regarding the conditions in

17 Keraterm, and the detainees had to be transferred to Omarska because of

18 some of the conditions there. But I don't actually know what they were in

19 Keraterm for the detainees to have to be transferred.

20 Q. If I have understood you correctly, and you tell me if I have or

21 have not, it was when the people were transferred from Keraterm to

22 Omarska; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I asked you and you gave me a detailed description, and my learned

25 colleague asked you again and your answer was yes to him to a particular

1 question, and now I have one more question for you.

2 When you were already in Omarska, when Mr. Kvocka -- from the

3 reservist whom you do not know took the list and went to the

4 administrative building, and when he returned with that piece of paper,

5 what did he say in connection to Mr. Nusret Sivac?

6 A. As I was sitting in the vehicle, the motor was switched off,

7 the windows were open, as far as I was able to hear, the chief said to

8 Mr. Kvocka that Nusret Sivac -- that they didn't need Nusret Sivac, that

9 (redacted). He was Nusret

10 (redacted).

11 Q. If I understood you correctly, the chief said that they did not

12 need Mr. Sivac; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no

15 additional questions.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Krstan Simic.

17 Judge Fouad Riad.

18 JUDGE RIAD: Yes, Mr. President.

19 Questioned by the Court:

20 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Mr. Bolta.

21 A. Good morning, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE RIAD: Perhaps you can try to help me understand more fully

23 certain facts you mentioned. I'll go back. When you said that you

24 arrived at the camp, and to cut a long story short, Mr. Kvocka saw you,

25 saw Nusret Sivac, and was surprised. And I'll mention words. He told

1 them, "Boys, this is rough treatment," seeing that they were badly

2 handled.

3 Now, you said that immediately the bad treatment stopped, and not

4 only it stopped, after Kvocka left, they did not go back to this

5 treatment. All mistreatment did not continue after Kvocka left.

6 Now, just, in fact, this gave you the impression that Kvocka was a

7 man of authority in the camp? He was obeyed even after he left.

8 A. Well, I did not have the impression that he was a man of

9 authority. He just warned the people that, according to the rules and

10 regulations for public security, that searches should not be conducted in

11 that way. And he just drew attention to that person who had a short

12 haircut and who was tall, and he was probably their commandeer. So when

13 that particular man gave out these orders, they did not behave in the way

14 they had behaved up until then.

15 JUDGE RIAD: But you could see that it was a disciplined camp,

16 because they would take an order and obey it even after the man who gave

17 the order went away. This was a disciplined camp or it was completely out

18 of control, where everybody could do what he likes?

19 A. Well, there was control in the Omarska camp.

20 JUDGE RIAD: And Mr. Kvocka was one of the people in control?

21 A. I don't think he was, no, because he was shift leader -- patrol

22 sector leader in the police department. So he had no competencies as a

23 leadership cadre.

24 JUDGE RIAD: Yes. But they listened to him. What they said was

25 obeyed, whatever he was. According to you, what you saw, you said they

1 stopped the mistreatment and did not go back to it even after he left.

2 A. As Kvocka knows how persons are frisked, he just warned the men --

3 warned, actually, that person who was in charge of these special forces in

4 Omarska and told this leader that they shouldn't behave that way. So it

5 was the leader that had the authority over the others, not Kvocka.

6 JUDGE RIAD: And what authority did he have on the leader? Could

7 he punish the leader? Why did the leader obey him? I mean, you were

8 there, I was not there, so I wanted your opinion. If he was a leader, why

9 did the leader obey him? Why was he almost afraid of him?

10 A. I don't think he was afraid of him, no. But he probably knew that

11 Kvocka worked in the police force and that he knew the laws and the rules

12 and regulations as regards conduct. And so he could see himself that the

13 frisking was being done in a rough manner. He realised it himself, I

14 suppose, this leader.

15 JUDGE RIAD: Well, he did not realise it before Kvocka came. I

16 mean, he changed his method on the instructions of Mr. Kvocka. That's

17 what you told us.

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE RIAD: Now, one thing else. You said that Mr. Delic

20 replaced Drljaca, and you said you thought, you said exactly, "I think he

21 proposed Kvocka as shift leader and made this proposition to the

22 Minister."

23 Now, that means that Mr. Kvocka was looked upon as a good

24 policeman and was regarded favourably; is that the impression you had?

25 A. Yes.

1 JUDGE RIAD: I mean, he was not put aside -- he was put aside by

2 Drljaca, if I understood rightly, because he was put aside by Drljaca and

3 then Delic wanted him back. What happened after that? What happened to

4 this proposition?

5 A. I'm sorry, Your Honour, but could you repeat the question,

6 please?

7 JUDGE RIAD: All right. You said that Mr. Delic proposed Kvocka

8 as shift leader to the minister, but you didn't tell us what happened

9 after that.

10 A. As the proposal went to the minister, the minister confirmed it

11 and Kvocka was the shift leader of the Prijedor Police Station at the end

12 of 1994, 1995.

13 JUDGE RIAD: So he was looked upon as a very good policeman by the

14 authorities, as a loyal policeman?

15 A. Absolutely so, yes.

16 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Fouad Riad.

18 Madam Judge Wald.

19 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Bolta, I want to understand a little bit better

20 the testimony that you gave about the occasions in which the bus that --

21 the van that you were driving stopped at the camps.

22 Now, tell me if I'm correct, that the occasion -- two occasions

23 when your van stopped at Omarska, you told us that you were able to see

24 the fact that the prisoners getting out of the van were being searched in

25 a rough way, once when Mr. Kvocka intervened and the earlier time when he

1 wasn't there to intervene. You mentioned that you were able to see that

2 they were treated roughly. And then additionally, on the second time, you

3 were able to tell us about the incident where Mr. Kvocka said Mr. Nusret

4 Sivac was the wrong person.

5 You also told us that both times you were only stopped at the camp

6 for about five minutes, I think you said. And then you told us, however,

7 that on the second trip, when the van stopped at Keraterm, you were not

8 able to see if anything was going on in back when the prisoners were put

9 on, or you were asked if you knew anything -- you were able to see

10 prisoners being dragged out and beaten, and you said no, you didn't know

11 anything about that and you weren't able to see anything about prisoners

12 in the back of the van, coming in or getting out.

13 I'm wondering if you can help me a little to understand. If you

14 were in the van all the time, and you told us on one occasion you could

15 hear the conversation because the engine was off and the windows were up,

16 how you would be able to see and hear so much during such a short

17 time in the two times the van stopped at Omarska but you weren't able to

18 hear or see anything about -- anything that might have been happening to

19 the prisoners when it stopped in Keraterm?

20 A. I have already said that I was sitting in the van. My colleague,

21 Tomo, got off and opened the back door. The men got off and they were

22 taken over by the reserve officer who was there. Then this special unit

23 arrived and they searched these people, because I stopped right at the

24 corner of the administrative building so I couldn't see the whole side of

25 the building but only a part of it. What I could see, I could see through

1 the window and the side window, but I couldn't see the rest of the

2 administrative building.

3 JUDGE WALD: That's true. You're now talking about Omarska;

4 right? You're now talking about when it stopped at Omarska, as opposed to

5 when it stopped at Keraterm. What I'm just trying to understand is if you

6 were always sitting in the van, how you were able to see so much of what

7 was happening in Omarska but nothing of what was happening in Keraterm to

8 the prisoners as they got out or came in. I just wanted you to clarify

9 that, if you were in the van both times.

10 A. Yes, I was in the van. And Tomo got off, because the persons were

11 already prepared for transport, they were waiting for us to come, and they

12 were simply boarded onto the van, at the back, and we continued on our way

13 to Omarska.

14 JUDGE WALD: Just to finish this off, I understand you to say that

15 you just couldn't -- is this correct, your earlier testimony: You were

16 not in a position to see or hear anything about what was happening to the

17 prisoners as they got onto the van in Keraterm; is that right? You were

18 asked whether you heard any commotion, whether you knew anything happened,

19 and you said no, you were sitting in the van and you couldn't -- I think

20 that's what you said, you couldn't see or hear what was happening because

21 your friend, your colleague, Mr. Stojakovic, was the one who was out with

22 the prisoners in Keraterm as they were loaded on; is that right?

23 A. Yes. Nothing was happening in Keraterm, actually, when the people

24 got onto the van.

25 JUDGE WALD: That's what I'm trying to pin down now because I

1 didn't fully understand it. Is it that you couldn't tell because you were

2 in the front of the van and Mr. Stojakovic was out with the prisoners in

3 back, so you couldn't tell if anything was happening; or you could see

4 what was happening and nothing was happening? I just wanted to clarify

5 which of those two things you are testifying to. That you could see that

6 nothing was happening or you couldn't see whether anything was happening?

7 A. I couldn't really see, because when I made an about-turn in

8 Keraterm, I was facing the road, I was facing the way out, the road

9 leading to Omarska. So that's all I could say.

10 JUDGE WALD: All right. In Keraterm, after you picked up the

11 prisoners on this second trip, and your colleague, Mr. Stojakovic, came

12 back into the van after the prisoners were loaded, did he say anything to

13 you about anything unusual happening? He was the one who was out there

14 with them as they were loaded onto the van. Did he mention anything, say

15 anything, about anything unusual happening in the process of their being

16 loaded onto the van?

17 A. No, he didn't say anything.

18 JUDGE WALD: All right. On either of the two trips that you made,

19 did you -- were you able to see the condition of prisoners as they were

20 picked up at the police station, at the police station, and put into the

21 van? Were you in a position to see what they looked like as they came

22 onto the van from the police station?

23 A. I think you are referring to the three men, plus Nusret Sivac,

24 that I was driving.

25 JUDGE WALD: Well, I'm referring to any -- you said you made two

1 trips -- to anybody that you picked up at the time, on either trip, from

2 the police station into -- that came into the van. I just want to know if

3 you could see them as they were coming onto the van.

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE WALD: Okay. So my next question is: Were any of those

6 men, men or whoever they were, on either one of the trips, could you see

7 any -- what condition were they in? Were they bruised? Was there any

8 evidence that they had been beaten? Were they dishevelled? I mean, what

9 condition were they in when they got onto the van from the police station?

10 A. The three, or, rather, Nusret Sivac and the two men who were in

11 the police station, as far as I saw, they had not been beaten, nor did

12 they have any kind of injuries, as far as I could see.

13 JUDGE WALD: Okay. How about the other trip? Did you pick people

14 up from the police station on the other trip, the first trip? The first

15 time that you went to Keraterm and Omarska, the one that was sometime in

16 May, did you pick people up from the police station that time?

17 [Mr. J. Simic entered the courtroom]

18 A. No. It was from Keraterm. We were transferring people from

19 Keraterm to Omarska.

20 JUDGE WALD: Thank you for straightening that out for me. When

21 you picked them up at Keraterm, could you see them as they came onto the

22 van? This first trip, not the Nusret Sivac time. Could you see the

23 prisoners as they were getting onto the van in Keraterm on the very first

24 time that you were there, in May.

25 A. No.

1 JUDGE WALD: You couldn't see them when they got on at Keraterm.

2 Okay. Thank you.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge

4 Wald.

5 Mr. Bolta, I too have three questions for you.

6 The first: When Mr. Kvocka took the list from the reserve officer

7 to do something, he said something. Do you remember his exact words, what

8 exactly he said?

9 A. You mean what Mr. Kvocka said?

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 A. As far as I can remember, Mr. Kvocka asked with surprise, "What

12 are you, Nusret, doing here?" The answer was that he had been arrested

13 and he had no idea why. Then Kvocka took the piece of paper from the

14 reserve officer and said that he would go upstairs to see with the chiefs

15 in the administrative building what it was all about, whether they needed

16 Nusret.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you remember now his words,

18 what exactly he said? Before he left, having picked up the list and

19 holding the list in his hand, and before leaving, what exactly did he say?

20 A. He just said that he would check with the chiefs what it was

21 about.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did he say "the chiefs" or "the

23 chief," one? Singular or plural?

24 A. I think he said the chief or the chiefs -- the chiefs or the

25 superiors, I don't know. I think he used the plural, the chiefs. Well, I

1 couldn't hear very clearly as I was sitting in the vehicle, so I didn't

2 really hear whether he used a name.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think I heard you say just now

4 that there were several chiefs. Why are you saying that?

5 A. That is what I heard, that he said, "I'm going to see what the

6 chiefs -- what's going on." How many chiefs there were, I don't know. I

7 can't tell you.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. You're telling

9 me that there were several chiefs because Mr. Kvocka said that he was

10 going to see the chiefs, and your conclusion on the basis of that is that

11 there were several; is that right?

12 A. I'm telling you, I am not quite sure whether he said he was going

13 to the chief or the chiefs. But in any event, he went to the

14 administrative building, and when he came back, he said that they didn't

15 need Nusret Sivac (redacted) Mr. Nusret Sivac was

16 driven back to Prijedor.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Another

18 question. Nusret Sivac, this name, when was the first time that you heard

19 that name? When did you learn that name? When did you hear of that name

20 for the first time?

21 A. As Nusret Sivac worked in the public security station in Prijedor

22 and he worked at the telephone exchange, he worked in the communications,

23 and when I was transferred from Zagreb, a couple of months later, I learnt

24 about Mr. Sivac. This could have been in March or April of 1984.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. You

1 mentioned that the way in which people were searched was rough or brutal,

2 that is the word you used. Do you know the rules governing such

3 procedures?

4 A. Indeed, I do.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So why didn't you intervene when

6 you saw that the search was being done in a brutal manner?

7 A. I was not in a position to intervene at all at that point in time

8 because I was not competent. There were people higher up than me; there

9 were unit leaders there.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see. You had no authority to

11 do that. Why did Mr. Kvocka do it, then?

12 A. Because he happened to be there just then. He was outside and he

13 saw that they were treating the persons roughly, and then he drew the

14 attention of the leader of that unit to that fact.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But you were there too and you

16 saw that the procedures were being done in a brutal manner. What is the

17 difference?

18 A. The difference is that my orders were to transport these people,

19 and in the police, one follows orders. Whatever orders you receive, that

20 is what you have to do.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Certainly, yes. I see that

22 Judge Fouad Riad has another question.

23 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

24 [In English] Listening to you yesterday and then listening to you

25 now, I understood that Mr. Kvocka did two different actions; one, when he

1 said -- you said as soon as you brought the men, he said, "Boys, this is a

2 rough treatment," and then you continued saying a man came and stopped the

3 bad treatment. This was an action. And then now you are telling the

4 President that he went to the chiefs to check about Nusret Sivac. So my

5 concern is when he said this is the bad treatment and they stopped the

6 treatment, he did that immediately, or he went first to the chiefs and

7 then came back this is a bad treatment because the chiefs have decided

8 it's a bad treatment?

9 A. As soon as he came up, he said that straight away. "Boys, that is

10 not the way to search persons." And then he took up the piece of paper

11 from that reserve officer and went to the administrative building.

12 JUDGE RIAD: But the bad treatment stopped immediately when he

13 said that.

14 A. But the leader of this special unit, when Kvocka made his comment,

15 then the leader of the unit gave orders that they should stop that

16 treatment. So he was the one issuing the order.

17 JUDGE RIAD: Yes, but Kvocka did not need to go to the chiefs to

18 get an order to stop that bad treatment. He went to the chiefs just for

19 Nusret.

20 A. As he too knew Nusret Sivac as well as all the other officers who

21 had worked with him, and he was surprised to see him there so he went to

22 check with the chiefs what it was about.

23 JUDGE RIAD: About Nusret. I mean, the bad treatment had already

24 stopped.

25 A. Yes.

1 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Bolta, thank you very much

3 for coming here.

4 I see Mr. Simic on his feet. Before I finish what I was going to

5 say.

6 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I should like to

7 appeal to the Chamber, pursuant to the exceptions that we had in the past,

8 to allow me to put a question linked to the question put by His Honour

9 Judge Riad.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What is the question,

11 Mr. Simic?

12 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the question would be

13 the following: For the witness to state clearly whether, on that

14 occasion, Mr. Kvocka issued an order, or was it the advice of an

15 experienced policeman and nothing more than that?

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I saw Mr. Saxon get up.

17 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, this witness has testified that he did

18 not work at the camp, that he had no specialised knowledge of the

19 operations of the camp, that he spent a total of ten minutes at the

20 Omarska camp during 1992, so it would be pure speculation on this witness'

21 part to give such an opinion. And, quite frankly, this testimony has been

22 explained thoroughly yesterday and today, so we would object.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic, put the

25 question to the witness.

1 Further re-examination by Mr. K. Simic:

2 Q. Mr. Bolta, I should like to ask you kindly to tell this Trial

3 Chamber, and you are a policeman, whether on that occasion Mr. Kvocka was

4 giving those persons an order, or was he giving them a piece of advice as

5 an experienced policeman, or suggestion as to how they should act,

6 pursuant to the Rules of Service?

7 A. Mr. Kvocka was giving advice as to the way in which a search

8 should be done. And as far as I remember, what he said was, "Guys, that

9 is not the way to act, according to the rules," because they were acting

10 in a rough manner. So he just gave them this admonition, and then of

11 course this unit leader prevented them from continuing with that

12 treatment.

13 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, questions?

15 MS. SOMERS: No, Your Honour, I have no further questions.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Bolta, I have a question.

17 [Interpretation] I'm going to switch back to French.

18 Further Questioned by the Court:

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think I heard you say or

20 mention a member of special units here. Were there other policemen

21 present, apart from Mr. Kvocka, or was he alone?

22 A. When I arrived, I didn't see anyone except --

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, I'm sorry. At the time that

24 Mr. Kvocka said stop -- no, let me rephrase the question. What were the

25 words used by Mr. Kvocka to have the search stopped? The words used by

1 Mr. Kvocka. Don't tell me, "He said that ..." Give us the exact quote.

2 A. "Boys, that is not the way to search persons. You have to work

3 and study in the police for a long time to be able to do your work as a

4 policeman properly."

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Is that what he said?

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think, but we will check with

8 the transcript, I think that the first time you said that he ordered,

9 "Stop it," but now you're saying that that is not the proper way to

10 carry out a search. Is that right?

11 A. He was just explaining how the search should be done. And the

12 leader of the special unit was the one who issued the order. He told his

13 men to stop it, to stop acting in that way. So the leader, the superior

14 who was there present, this tall man with a short haircut.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So were there any other persons

16 there apart from Mr. Kvocka?

17 A. I didn't see anyone.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Who was this leader that you are

19 mentioning? You mentioned a leader of a special unit. Who was he? Was

20 he doing the search? Was the leader doing the search?

21 A. No. I don't even know who he is, nor was he doing the search.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But you mentioned, I'm looking

23 at the transcript, page 20, line 6, when you said, "And the leader of the

24 special unit was the one who issued the order." I'm asking you, who was

25 that leader?

1 A. Who was the leader of the special unit? I don't know.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You don't know the name but you

3 knew he was the leader. How did things happen? What were the words used

4 by the leader? What did the leader actually say?

5 A. I could conclude that he was the leader of that unit, because when

6 he came up and when Kvocka said this, he stopped the procedure from

7 continuing in that way. So from that I concluded that he must have been

8 the leader of the unit.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you know how long this went

10 on for?

11 A. Briefly.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Bolta. I think

13 we have no further questions for you. Thank you very much for coming

14 here, and we wish you a safe journey home. I'm going to ask the usher to

15 accompany you out. Thank you very much.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic.

19 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in accordance with our

20 plan, the Defence calls witness Novak Pusac.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic, how do we

22 stand regarding the number of witnesses here present, in relation to those

23 present here for this week?

24 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have one further

25 witness, so we had planned to finish today, and we believe we will manage

1 to do that so that they won't have to come back again or for us to

2 continue tomorrow.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Pusac. Can

5 you hear me?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I can

7 hear you.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You are going to read the solemn

9 declaration given to you by the usher, please.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

11 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12 WITNESS: NOVAK PUSAC

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated. Thank you

15 very much for coming. First, you will be answering questions put to you

16 by Mr. Krstan Simic.

17 Mr. Krstan Simic, your witness.

18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

19 Examined by Mr. K. Simic:

20 Q. Mr. Pusac, good morning. And as you know, I am attorney Krstan

21 Simic representing, together with Mr. Lukic, Mr. Kvocka. So our questions

22 will be in that context and related to this case, of course.

23 Are you ready?

24 A. I am.

25 Q. Mr. Pusac, for the record, will you please tell us your full

1 name.

2 A. My name is Novak Pusac.

3 Q. Mr. Pusac, when were you born?

4 A. On the 5th of March, 1962.

5 Q. Where were you born? Sorry, in Prska? Is that where you reside?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I'm told your place of birth has not been entered in the record.

8 So will you please make a pause. Where were you born? Where? Where?

9 A. In Omarska.

10 Q. What kind of education do you have?

11 A. I'm a mechanic, a secondary school education.

12 Q. Are you married?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you have children?

15 A. I do.

16 Q. Have you done your military service?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When and where?

19 A. In 1981, in Nis.

20 Q. What arm of the military did you serve in in Nis

21 A. I served as a mechanic.

22 Q. When you completed your obligatory military service, were you a

23 military conscript? And if you were, where were your documents?

24 A. Yes, I was a military -- I was a conscript, and I was registered

25 with the military department in Prijedor.

1 Q. Mr. Pusac, we won't discuss the events that took place in

2 Prijedor, as Their Honours have heard about that in some detail. We

3 should just discuss your role in those events. So my question to you is:

4 Did you, from the military -- were you drafted in 1991 by the military

5 authorities at the time?

6 A. I was.

7 Q. Do you know what unit you were drafted to?

8 A. The 43rd Motorised Brigade, Prijedor.

9 Q. As a member of the 43rd Motorised Brigade in Prijedor, did you

10 take part in armed clashes in the course of 1991?

11 A. I did not.

12 Q. Where was the 43rd Motorised Brigade based?

13 A. I don't understand the question.

14 Q. Where did it have its headquarters?

15 A. In Prijedor.

16 Q. Was it the Zarko Zgonjanin barracks?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. In May or April 1992 and later, was there a change in your

19 military assignment, and which unit were you assigned to then?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Which unit was it?

22 A. The Territorial Defence for Omarska.

23 Q. Where was the Territorial Defence unit in Omarska located?

24 A. In Omarska itself.

25 Q. Do you know the name of the commander of the Omarska Territorial

1 Defence unit?

2 A. I do.

3 Q. What was his name?

4 A. Ranko Radenovic.

5 Q. Mr. Pusac, did you, together with a number of soldiers, at the end

6 of May, or beginning of June, receive as a unit a definite military task?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When did you begin implementing that assignment that we will come

9 back to?

10 A. At the end of May.

11 Q. What was that military assignment given to this smaller unit as a

12 component of the Omarska Territorial Defence?

13 A. The second circle.

14 Q. What do you mean?

15 A. We were in the second circle securing the area we were ordered to

16 secure.

17 Q. Did you secure the area of the Omarska complex where some persons

18 were detained at the time?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How was that security organised of this second circle, as you call

21 it, this second ring? How far were you away from the Omarska complex

22 where these persons were being detained?

23 A. 500 to 600 metres.

24 Q. Did a lower level unit within the Territorial Defence receive

25 orders to provide that security? If there was such a unit, who was the

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1 leader of that unit?

2 A. It was actually a company, and the leader of the company was Drago

3 Maric.

4 Q. How was the system of shifts organised or, rather, how many hours

5 did a shift provide security for?

6 A. One guard post was secured by four of us, two were resting, and

7 two were on duty.

8 Q. Let me just check whether I understood you correctly. So that

9 means that you and another soldier were on guard duty for 24 hours, and

10 then another two would relieve you and you would be off; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you know how many such guard posts there were?

13 A. No.

14 Q. How far were the guard posts from you to the left and to the

15 right, if you had neighbours who were also providing guard duty?

16 A. About 200 metres away.

17 Q. As you would spend the night at those guard posts, was there any

18 form of a accommodation there or the like?

19 A. We provided those conditions ourselves.

20 Q. Did you have any kind of tents or shelters?

21 A. Yes, we had small tents.

22 Q. Does that mean that you and your colleague, during those 24 hours,

23 would take turns, would organise yourselves so as to take turns? One

24 would be on duty and the other resting.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Were you told what the aim of this second security ring was? Did

2 you have any instructions about that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What was the aim of providing this second ring of security?

5 A. To prevent entry from the outside and escapes from the inside.

6 Q. Was the possibility mentioned to you of an attack by members of

7 the Green Berets in order to free the prisoners?

8 A. Yes.

9 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Somers.

11 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, thank you. I would just like to ask the

12 Chamber if, from this point where we're getting into much more contested

13 areas than the background issues, if perhaps the chamber would consider

14 seeking a reduction in the leading.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic.

16 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really didn't notice

17 a single leading question except for the last one, which for me is, after

18 all, quite irrelevant, really. It's irrelevant from the standpoint of

19 this case, because we intend to show the structure within the camp. But

20 we're not discussing the strategy of attack or defence here.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In any event, you may continue,

22 having made that remark. So please proceed.

23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Did this Territorial Defence unit of Omarska have in its

25 composition a quartermaster platoon?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What was its task?

3 A. Its task was to prepare and deliver food.

4 Q. Are you aware where the quartermaster platoon was located?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Where?

7 A. In the separation -- it was separated from Omarska. It was

8 outside Omarska.

9 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] My colleague has warned me that

10 there is an unclear point so I'll try to clarify.

11 Q. How far is this separation, as it's called, Separacija, away

12 from the complex of Omarska?

13 A. 1900 metres.

14 Q. Do the buildings on the location known as Separacija also belong

15 to the iron ore mine of Ljubija? Do you know that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. This quartermaster platoon, did it have in its composition

18 soldiers from reserve forces in charge of preparing food?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Were there other soldiers in charge of distributing the food?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Who was the commander of the quartermaster platoon?

23 A. Milan Andzic.

24 Q. Do you know a person named Pero Rendic?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. What was he?

2 A. He organised the preparation of food.

3 Q. Did I then understand you correctly as saying that Pero Rendic was

4 superior to this group of men who prepared the food?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What were the duties of Mr. Andzic, then?

7 A. His duties were to provide the foodstuffs for the quartermaster

8 platoon.

9 Q. Did you ever during your stay there visit Separacija?

10 A. No.

11 Q. The food that was prepared by the quartermaster platoon in

12 Separacija, was it also delivered to members of the Omarska Territorial

13 Defence?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How many meals a day did you receive?

16 A. Two.

17 Q. Can you tell us, what was the food like, the food that you also

18 received as a member of that unit?

19 A. It was good in terms of quantity, but it was bland. There were no

20 spices in it and that's not the kind of food we were used to.

21 Q. You served in the army, didn't you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was there any difference between the food you ate in the army and

24 that you ate in the field? Not in terms of taste but in terms of

25 ingredients.

1 A. No, there was not.

2 Q. Did you receive -- were you given bread with that food?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. How much bread?

5 A. A quarter of a loaf, sometimes an eighth, depending on the

6 situation in the bakery.

7 Q. Mr. Pusac, did you and the other soldiers ever object to the

8 quality of that bread?

9 A. We did.

10 Q. What was the substance of your objection?

11 A. It was either not well-baked or it was simply of poor quality.

12 Q. Did it have to do with power cuts that occurred at that time?

13 A. Yes, that was the greatest problem.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic, here we are.

15 There are several situations, but here you have a good example of a

16 leading question. That's what I mean. Maybe you're not noticing it but

17 we are. So please pay attention, be careful.

18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I accept your suggestion and I

19 thank you very much.

20 Q. How did you, during the times when you were on duty, deal with the

21 problem of your own nutrition?

22 A. When we were resting, we were at home and we ate there. When we

23 were on duty, we brought food from home.

24 Q. Who was your direct superior, your immediate superior, the first

25 above you?

1 A. Zdravko Maric.

2 Q. Who was his superior?

3 A. Ranko Radenovic.

4 Q. To you, Zdravko Maric, or any other member of the Omarska

5 Territorial Defence unit, could Zeljko Meakic, commander of the police

6 station, issue any orders to any of you?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did Mr. Zeljko Meakic ever visit your guard posts?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you know who the commander of your Territorial Defence unit

11 was subordinated to, I mean Mr. Ranko Radenovic?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Within that unit, did you have -- did you maintain discipline?

14 Did the guards conscientiously fulfil their tasks of providing security in

15 the second ring?

16 A. The discipline was not up to snuff.

17 Q. In what was it reflected, this lack of discipline?

18 A. Sleeping; people went home when they were not supposed to; played

19 card games.

20 Q. Did you personally ever go to the Omarska camp where the detainees

21 were?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Are you aware of any other members of security of the second ring

24 going to the Omarska camp?

25 A. No, nobody went there.

1 Q. And finally, did the security you provided have anything in common

2 with the security provided by members of the police from the police

3 station department within the compound?

4 A. No, it didn't.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Somers.

6 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, we wanted to interpose an objection in

7 that there's no basis that this individual would have any knowledge of

8 that.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, perhaps you can ask

10 the witness what he could observe, what he could have observed. But if

11 the witness tells you, if I got it correctly, that he never entered into

12 the compound of Omarska, he is not in a position to compare. So perhaps

13 you should bear that in mind. Please continue.

14 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

15 respond to Ms. Somers, and this was my last question. I had the grounds

16 for this question because a couple of minutes earlier, I asked him whether

17 the commander of the police station, Zeljko Meakic, could he ever give

18 them orders. I got his answer, "No." I asked whether Zeljko Meakic had

19 ever come to see what they were doing, and he said no. And I now asked a

20 question which only the -- the answer to which only confirms what is

21 written in the order of the 31st of May, 1992.

22 I have no further questions.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Have you finished, Mr. Krstan

24 Simic?

25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] All right, then. Thank you very

2 much, in any case.

3 So, Ms. Somers -- I'm sorry, is there anyone on the other Defence

4 teams who wishes to put any questions? I see them signing no.

5 So, Ms. Susan Somers, how much time do you need approximately for

6 your cross-examination?

7 MS. SOMERS: Judge Rodrigues, I would like to ask a few questions

8 based on his testimony, and then ask for his assistance in going through

9 one document. So I think it would be commensurate with, perhaps, the time

10 that was taken for this witness.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, we know you are going to do

12 this. But how much time?

13 MS. SOMERS: It will go beyond 11.00. So maybe half an hour,

14 maybe 40 minutes at the most.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Right, then. I just asked this

16 to see if it is better to take our break now or later because if you could

17 finish in a quarter of an hour, we could wait.

18 In any case, we are now going to take a break of 30 minutes.

19 --- Recess taken at 10.47 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 11.20 a.m.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

22 Mr. Jovan Simic, I apologise for interrupting you, but could you

23 bring us an update with respect to Mr. Prcac's condition. How is he

24 feeling? Is he feeling better? Has somebody seen to him?

25 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Mr. Prcac has been

1 transferred to the Detention Unit and a physician is seeing him. He has a

2 very high blood pressure, over 200, and he is experiencing severe pain in

3 his head and neck, which has upset his eyesight too. They hope that he

4 will be better. He will have to receive therapy for reducing his blood

5 pressure and a prescription for his heart.

6 I talked to him during the break and I will do so again in the

7 coming break. He feels a little better but his situation is, nonetheless,

8 critical.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you for that information.

10 Mr. Usher, please have the witness brought in.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated, Mr. Pusac.

13 You are now going to be answering questions put to you by the

14 Prosecution.

15 Ms. Susan Somers, your witness.

16 Cross-examined by Ms. Somers:

17 Q. Mr. Pusac, could you, before getting into any other questions,

18 give us the exact date, day and -- I'm sorry, year, and month when you

19 came to Omarska camp to work, and the exact date, year, and month when you

20 left?

21 A. Do you mean did I work in the firm, in the company?

22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection. Objection, Your

23 Honour.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic.

25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness has

1 testified but he never said that he went to work in the Omarska camp. He

2 said that within the frameworks of his unit he was assigned the task of

3 security. So could questions be posed in that sense, that is to say, when

4 the unit received its assignment to provide security for the camp and not

5 to work in the camp.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Susan Somers.

7 MS. SOMERS: Yes, I will gladly rephrase it, Your Honour. I don't

8 want to confuse the witness.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please go ahead, then.

10 MS. SOMERS:

11 Q. I'm terribly sorry, Mr. Pusac. Let me phrase that a little bit

12 more clearly. When did you start your work as guard duty in the second

13 circle and then when did you finish it? Month and year starting and month

14 and year finishing, please.

15 A. I started working at the beginning of June 1992 and stopped

16 working at the beginning of August of that same year, 1992.

17 Q. Do you know the name of the commander of Omarska camp?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Have you ever heard of a person by the name of Dusan Jankovic?

20 A. I have heard of it, yes.

21 Q. In what connection?

22 A. Just as a name, the name of a man.

23 Q. I want to make sure I understood your testimony a bit earlier.

24 Did you indicate that you were not authorised to enter the camp proper,

25 neither you nor your group with whom you worked on guard duty?

1 A. That's right. We weren't authorised to enter.

2 Q. It is a fact, isn't it, that the first ring, the first ring of the

3 camp where the prisoners were kept, was manned by policemen; right?

4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic.

6 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] The witness was not in the camp at

7 all and does not know what was going on in the camp for him to be able to

8 assert or deny the facts asked him by Ms. Somers.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But he was working in the second

10 circle, the second ring, so the second comes after the first.

11 Go ahead with your question, Ms. Somers.

12 MS. SOMERS:

13 Q. Mr. Pusac, shall I repeat the question or do you remember it? Let

14 me repeat it for you.

15 The first ring of the camp, which was outside of where the

16 prisoners were kept, was manned by policemen, was it not?

17 A. I don't know which formations kept that ring.

18 Q. You had told us that you received, you and the guards with whom

19 you worked in the second circle, received two meals a day, and if I

20 understood correctly, the amount you got was okay, it was just not to your

21 taste.

22 Can you tell us, please, as part of the meals that you got, did

23 you ever get vegetables or eggs or meat or dessert, something sweet?

24 A. No dessert, no. There was always meat. I don't know about fruit,

25 whether there was or wasn't. I didn't pay any attention to that.

1 Q. How about vegetables or eggs?

2 A. Eggs, yes; vegetables, no.

3 Q. Butter?

4 A. Butter, yes.

5 Q. Where did you get your drinking water from while you were

6 working?

7 A. We brought our drinking water from home.

8 Q. Do you know how many times a day the detainees, the people who

9 were detained in the camp, ate?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Do you know perhaps what they ate?

12 A. The same thing we ate.

13 Q. And how do you know that?

14 A. Well, when we received our -- the schedules for the food, for the

15 meals, they would get their meals first and then we would get our food.

16 The same platoon would take them food and us that same food.

17 Q. And did you see the food being actually taken by the platoon?

18 A. Well, yes, you can see them taking the food and bringing the food

19 to us.

20 Q. In what types of containers, if any, or how did they take the

21 food? Can you describe the process physically?

22 A. It was a classical type of container, the type used in the army

23 for food, and food was brought in containers of that kind, standard issue

24 containers.

25 Q. And how many trips did they have to make to take the food to feed

1 the number of people who were detained?

2 A. They came to us twice a day, once for one meal, the second time

3 for the second meal.

4 Q. Were they located closer to you? Were the people who prepared the

5 food located physically closer to you or close to you?

6 A. The same distance.

7 Q. Did you -- perhaps you may have misunderstood my question a moment

8 ago. There were a number of people, a fairly large number of people, in

9 the camp, were there not?

10 A. I didn't notice that. I couldn't see from that distance how many

11 there were.

12 Q. When the guards took what you thought was their food to them, how

13 many guards did it take to take all the food? How many trucks? How many

14 containers? If you can just give us a number. And maybe the type of

15 containers. You mentioned classic containers. Were they containers for

16 liquid? Help us a little bit to understand that.

17 A. They were containers which were taken to us. For our purposes one

18 container would be full of food, another container for bread, and a third

19 container for tea. Now, quantity-wise, I would say the containers were

20 about -- between 50 to 100 litres, of that capacity.

21 Q. And do you know how many of those containers were taken to feed

22 the people in the camp whenever their mealtime was?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. I just want to ask you: Why did you bring your drinking water

25 from home?

1 A. Because there wasn't any water where I was doing guard duty.

2 Q. There was no drinking water, water you could drink?

3 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

4 A. There was no water at all. Where I was, there was no water at

5 all.

6 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I withdraw the objection. The

7 witness has already answered, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. Anyway, Mr. Simic,

9 if you leave it to the witness, the witness will always answer, will give

10 an answer himself. So perhaps rather than making frequent interruptions,

11 we can let the witness answer for himself. So place your confidence in

12 the witness, Mr. Simic. You see he's able to answer.

13 Ms. Somers, please continue.

14 MS. SOMERS:

15 Q. Mr. Pusac, did your shift in the second circle include working at

16 night? I know you indicated people did work at night. Did you ever work

17 at night?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When you worked at night -- first of all, 500 to 600 metres was

20 the estimate of the distance of your circle from the camp; is that right?

21 Would that be right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Before I ask you the next question, I wonder if you might be

24 willing -- if you don't mind getting up -- just to point something out.

25 This is a model of the Omarska camp, a bit dusty, but a model. I wonder

1 if you could take the pointer, the piece of metal that's in front of it,

2 and show us, please, a couple of things. It will just take a minute. I

3 hope it won't be inconvenient for you.

4 Would you mind getting up and doing that? You'd have to leave

5 your earphones, but -- thank you.

6 Can you hear me okay now? Are your earphones working?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Mr. Pusac, if you'd help us, using this model of Omarska camp, can

9 you indicate on which side of the camp you were assigned to guard duty?

10 A. [Indicates]

11 Q. You're pointing to the area in front of the green strip on the

12 model.

13 [Prosecution counsel confer]

14 MS. SOMERS: Thank you for the assistance, Mr. Saxon.

15 Q. For the record, it would be to the right of what has been

16 described as the "white house." Is that correct? It was to the right of

17 that "white house"? That was the area to which you pointed?

18 A. It depends on what side you're looking at it from, your angle of

19 vision.

20 Q. From where you're standing, pointing to the right?

21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, yes?

23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] The witness never mentioned the

24 term "white house," and I would like --

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Mr. Simic. We

1 are coming to a situation where interruptions are not welcome. It is true

2 that Ms. Susan Somers is trying to -- doing her best to pinpoint the point

3 described by the witness, and she said that it was to the right of the

4 "white house," and that was the point that he indicated. Of course, we

5 do know, Mr. Krstan Simic, that the witness did not mention the "white

6 house." We all know that. But the witness pointed to a spot. Now,

7 Ms. Somers had to describe that spot for us for the record. It is true

8 that Ms. Somers is at one place in the courtroom and the witness is in

9 another position, but we're all -- all of us here are following the

10 proceedings.

11 So there is the administration building, there's the canteen or

12 restaurant, and in -- standing where the witness is standing, I would say,

13 if I were asking him the question, I would say, "You mean after the

14 restaurant or the canteen, in the direction of the "white house," to the

15 right." I would say that myself.

16 Now, it's up to Ms. Susan Somers to describe the location. And

17 it's true, Mr. Simic, that the witness never mentioned the "white house,"

18 but if you attended the proceedings attentively, Ms. Susan Somers was

19 trying to indicate the exact spot by describing it for purposes of the

20 record, for the record. So let us not split hairs.

21 Ms. Susan Somers, please continue with your knowledge of

22 geography, north, south, east, west. So give us the orientation. You can

23 orient yourself and then guide the witness as to direction. Go ahead,

24 please.

25 MS. SOMERS:

1 Q. Assuming that we're looking -- just for the sake of our

2 conversation right now, with north being that way, the point -- would you

3 repoint to the area where you were? That would be helpful. Would you do

4 that one more time? Show us again where you worked. Show us again,

5 please, with the pointer where you worked.

6 A. [Indicates]

7 Q. Based on what I had described as being north, it would be

8 northeast of -- northeast of the green area, and the reference to the

9 white building, it would be to the right of the white building. Is that a

10 fair description, if you were talking to me and trying to show me now?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thanks very much. Did you change your posting, your location, in

13 the second circle from time to time while you were on guard duty?

14 A. No.

15 Q. So you were always at that first location that you showed us.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you very much. I think you can sit down, if the usher would

18 be -- sorry.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let me take advantage of this

20 interruption, Ms. Susan Somers, to make a suggestion.

21 There is a piece of paper with a diagram -- we have the diagram of

22 the model in the courtroom. Perhaps it would be more practical for next

23 time to prepare the diagram and show the diagram to the witness, and then

24 he could indicate what you want him to indicate. Perhaps that would

25 facilitate matters and speed them up. But it's up to you, of course.

1 Please proceed, Ms. Somers.

2 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Judge Rodrigues. I was unaware of that,

3 and I appreciate -- as you know, at this phase, it's very helpful for me

4 to hear that.

5 Q. Mr. Pusac, from the place where you showed us where you had guard

6 duty, either during the day or during the night, whenever you were on

7 duty, did you ever hear screams, screams of people?

8 A. No.

9 Q. From the location that you showed us, did you ever hear the sound

10 of gunfire, of gunshots, of weapons being discharged, ever?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you ever observe trucks or any other vehicles leaving Omarska

13 camp with dead bodies on them?

14 A. No.

15 Q. I'm going to ask you about a specific vehicle. Did you ever see

16 what is called a yellow TAM, or TAM, coming in or out or moving about

17 Omarska? From the position where you were working, did you ever see that,

18 a yellow TAM?

19 A. No, I did not.

20 Q. You were asked by my counsel opposite about your military service

21 in 1991. Now, you indicated you were originally with, was it, the 43rd

22 Motorised Brigade; is that correct? The 43rd Motorised Brigade?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you also participate -- did you participate in combat in 1992?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Were you ever in the 5th Kozara Light Brigade?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When were you in that brigade?

4 A. In 1993, 1994, and 1995.

5 Q. In which battalion or unit of that brigade were you?

6 A. The 3rd Battalion.

7 Q. Did you ever receive any awards or military medals or honours

8 during the time you were in that Kozara Brigade?

9 A. I did not. I just got a prison term.

10 Q. For what? What happened?

11 A. I wasn't good --

12 Q. What did you do?

13 A. -- a good guy.

14 Q. What did you do?

15 A. Avoidance.

16 Q. Of? Avoidance of what?

17 A. Avoidance of going to the battlefield, that kind of thing.

18 Q. How long were you locked up?

19 A. For a short period.

20 Q. What is that? How long would that be?

21 A. Between seven and ten days. I was under investigation and then

22 sent to the battlefield again.

23 Q. Where were you kept when you were locked up? Where were you kept

24 when you were locked up?

25 A. In Banja Luka.

1 Q. In what type of facility? Where? The name of the place where you

2 were kept. Was it a military camp, a prison? What was it?

3 A. It was a military institution. It wasn't a prison or a camp.

4 Q. When you were sent to the battlefield again after you were

5 released from Banja Luka, from the prison, where did you serve? Which

6 battlefield were you on?

7 A. Gradacac.

8 Q. From what time period to what time period?

9 A. I don't know exactly.

10 Q. When you were locked up, how was the food in the prison?

11 A. Good, because you could bring in food from outside. So my brother

12 and my sister would bring in food for me.

13 Q. Also, I wanted to ask you about your weight. When you were

14 working in the second circle, going back to that time period, how much did

15 you weigh when you went into your work - I think it was June of 1992, you

16 said - and how much did you weigh when you finished your work in August?

17 A. When I started working, I weighed 89 kilos, and when I stopped

18 working, 89 kilos. The same weight.

19 Q. I'm sorry to jump - I'll only jump once - but when you were in

20 Banja Luka in that short-term lock-up, were only soldiers kept there? And

21 if so, were they only Serb soldiers?

22 A. Only soldiers and, yes, only Serb soldiers; although, actually,

23 there were some Muslim and Croat soldiers serving in our army who had

24 committed an offence, misdemeanour, did not go to the battlefield when they

25 should have, were late a day or two. And then the military police would

1 take them into custody and put them there and then take them off to the

2 battlefield afterwards.

3 Q. Did you go in front of a judge before you were put in that

4 lock-up?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Just a few more questions.

7 MS. SOMERS: The Chamber, I think, should be given Exhibit -- it's

8 from May 31st, 2/4.11. Exhibit 2/4.11, this is a document that Mr. Krstan

9 Simic also had presented. It's the May 31st document that shows the setup

10 of the Omarska camp. I know that everyone has it, but I want to make sure

11 the Chamber gets a copy right now.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic.

13 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I should, first of

14 all, like to ask Ms. Somers to ascertain whether the witness has ever seen

15 the document. The witness is a mechanic. In a similar situation, when I

16 asked a witness to explain a document which was a very expert one, the

17 Chamber told me that it was not up to the witness to explain a highly

18 involved, legal document of the type shown him.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Krstan Simic, let's

20 see.

21 I would like to draw Ms. Somers's attention to the time. Please

22 don't overstep your time limit.

23 MS. SOMERS: Thanks very much. If the Chamber will let me know

24 when I can respond, I will be glad to. May I?

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just bear that in mind,

1 otherwise we're going to lose a lot of time.

2 MS. SOMERS: Okay.

3 Q. Mr. Pusac, I'd like you to just comment on a couple of points.

4 One is you may or may not have seen this document, and your personally

5 seeing it would not be terribly critical because it concerns the area in

6 which you were working, and therefore --

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, either you're

8 going to ask the witness, "Do you know the document, Witness?" and then go

9 on with your question; but if you're asking a question without the

10 document, then there's no need to place the document in front of the

11 witness, then you can just go ahead with the question. You see what I

12 mean. If the question is connected to the document, you must first ask

13 whether the witness has seen the document and then go ahead with your

14 question. If you're asking him the question without showing him the

15 document, then we don't need the document shown him at all, we don't need

16 the document.

17 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour, I follow what you were saying. I

18 was trying to approach it from a different angle. But I certainly will go

19 back and lay the foundation.

20 Q. The document you see in front of you, which is a document dated

21 the 31st of May, 1992, coming from the public -- at the end of the

22 document, there is a signature of Mr. Simo Drljaca. Have you ever seen

23 this document before?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Are you aware of any written rules and regulations that would have

1 come down from above about the various roles of persons who had anything

2 to do at all with the setting up or the functioning of Omarska camp?

3 A. I don't know of any rules.

4 MS. SOMERS: I will discuss this with another witness, Your

5 Honour. I think the question -- the particular question, although I'm

6 confident he may know, I think it would be, perhaps, a bit difficult for

7 him.

8 Thank you, Mr. Pusac. I have no further questions of you.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Ms. Susan

11 Somers.

12 Mr. Krstan Simic.

13 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have

14 only one question.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please proceed.

16 Re-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

17 Q. Mr. Pusac, my learned friend has asked you about the position of

18 your tent where you had guard duty within this so-called second ring. I

19 would like to ask you to tell the Judges whether, between your tent and

20 the Omarska centre, there were any obstacles or hills. Did you have a

21 proper view of what was happening in Omarska? Could you clear that up in

22 a few sentences, please?

23 A. Your Honours, we couldn't see much because we were 500 to 600

24 metres away. Also, there were shrubs and trees because, of course, we

25 couldn't put up our guard post in a clearing. So we too had to conceal

1 our position. And from there where we were, it was difficult to see

2 anything at all. In fact, we saw nothing.

3 Q. One additional question. So according to the rules, did you set

4 up your tent in an area where it would be sheltered and concealed from

5 others? So where you were, you also could not have a proper view of the

6 camp?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Simic.

10 Judge Fouad Riad, do you have any questions?

11 JUDGE RIAD: No.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Judge Wald?

13 JUDGE WALD: I have a few questions.

14 Questioned by the Court:

15 JUDGE WALD: I think you told us that you understood the duty of

16 yourself and others in the second circle to prevent the -- or to guard

17 against the escape of prisoners out of the camp and the unauthorised or

18 people who shouldn't be going into the camp going into the camp; is that

19 right? I mean, you had to have some function. What did you understand

20 the function of your position in the second circle? When you were on

21 guard duty, what were you looking for? What were you watching out for

22 when you were on guard duty?

23 A. At my guard post, I had to watch out for people coming from the

24 outside and, of course, any people who might leave from the inside.

25 JUDGE WALD: Okay. My next question then is: How were you or

1 your fellow soldiers in the second circuit -- second circle, I'm sorry,

2 how were you to know who was an authorised person to go into the camp or

3 not? I mean, if you saw some people approaching the gate of the camp --

4 could you see the gate of the camp, the regular gate where trucks went in

5 and out or where people might go in and out? Was that in view from your

6 guard post? Could you see the regular gate where people would go in and

7 out from where your guard post was?

8 A. No.

9 JUDGE WALD: Well, what were you guarding? I mean, I'm not quite

10 clear then. If you couldn't see people who were coming in and out, what

11 were you supposed to look for?

12 No. I'm getting French. I can't hear the English. Sorry.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Interpreters, can you check your microphones?

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can you hear now?

15 JUDGE WALD: If somebody will say something.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I am talking. One, two, three.

17 JUDGE WALD: It's all right now.

18 What were you looking for? If you were on guard and you couldn't

19 see people coming to the gate or going out of the gate, where would you be

20 looking? What would you be looking for?

21 A. The position of my guard post was not on that side, it was on the

22 opposite side of the gate.

23 JUDGE WALD: Okay. So when you were -- according to your

24 understanding then, you would be watching out for people who might be

25 coming out of the camp who shouldn't -- or going into the camp who

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1 shouldn't but not in the regular gates, over the -- on the other parts of

2 the camp where there were no gates; is that right? You had to watch it

3 for, as you said, people coming in and going out. So I'm just trying to

4 ascertain, you know, what you were looking for, people who weren't going

5 in and out the regular way? Might be sneaking out along the perimeter or

6 along the part of the camp that you could see?

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE WALD: So --

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE WALD: So to clarify this then, were you in a position to

11 see any -- the trucks that brought in the food every day? When the food

12 containers came in, were you in a position to see those trucks coming and

13 going to the camp? The food trucks, the trucks that we talked about that

14 had the containers of food.

15 A. No. Only the trucks that came to our -- to us.

16 JUDGE WALD: What would be the trucks that came to you, just your

17 own military trucks?

18 A. No.

19 JUDGE WALD: Well, what other kind of trucks would you see?

20 A. Privately-owned trucks, because they had been requisitioned, and

21 they crossed through the fields and meadows to reach us.

22 JUDGE WALD: To reach you but not to go into the camp. The trucks

23 that we're talking about now, did they go into the camp at any point or

24 just to your tent, just to your guard post?

25 A. They only came up to our guard post, and, of course, the other

1 guard posts.

2 JUDGE WALD: In the two months that you told us you were at this

3 same guard post, did you, in fact, ever see anybody trying to get into the

4 camp or trying to come out of the camp from your viewpoint of your guard

5 post?

6 A. No, nobody.

7 JUDGE WALD: So you never saw any unauthorised people trying to

8 get in or come out?

9 A. No, no. We didn't see anyone.

10 JUDGE WALD: From your point of view -- I think I know the answer

11 but I want to make sure. From your advantage point at the guard post,

12 could you see any prisoners, just see them, not maybe close enough to

13 recognise them, but just see bodies inside the camp? I don't mean dead

14 bodies. I mean people walking around, prisoners. Could you see -- could

15 you make out figures inside the camp from where your guard post was?

16 A. No. I could just see the roof of this building here.

17 JUDGE WALD: Okay. So you couldn't see where any of the clumps of

18 people were inside the camp at all. So the whole two months you were

19 there -- is this right or wrong: The whole two months you were there, you

20 never actually saw a prisoner or an inmate of the camp; is that right?

21 A. Yes, that's right. I did not see any.

22 JUDGE WALD: Okay. My last question is: You told us that from

23 everything you knew, you were getting the same food as the inmates who

24 were being served by the Quartermaster Platoon, right? I mean, they

25 brought the containers of the food.

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE WALD: Did you have anyway of knowing whether you were

3 getting the same quantities of food that the inmates were getting? If it

4 was the same food? I'm just asking you if you had anyway of knowing - if

5 you didn't, okay - whether or not the amount of food that you were getting

6 was the same as, say, each inmate might be getting inside.

7 A. I don't know that.

8 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

10 Judge Wald.

11 Mr. Pusac, could you tell us, what were the instructions that

12 Zdravko Maric, for example, who was your superior, gave you to carry out?

13 What were your instructions?

14 A. There can be no exits and no entries. For any other assignments,

15 we will be duly informed.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Entry and exit from

17 where and to where?

18 A. Leaving the compound, leaving the circle, and entering it from

19 outside.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The translation I received was

21 "leaving that place." Which place?

22 A. I don't understand the question.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see. You told me that your

24 instructions were, "Prevent anyone from entering and prevent anyone from

25 leaving." My question is: From entering where and leaving what? Do you

1 understand now?

2 A. Yes, I do. Entering from the outside and from leaving the circle,

3 from going outside the circle.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What circle?

5 A. Not in the literal sense the circle, but the compound where the

6 detainees were held.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Oh, I see. Why don't you use

8 the proper word. When you say the "circle," you mean the Omarska centre.

9 Is that what you mean?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So your task was to prevent

12 anyone from entering or leaving the Omarska centre.

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Throughout the time that you

15 were there - Judge Wald already mentioned the two-month period - did you

16 ever see anything unusual or out of the ordinary in terms of security?

17 A. No.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Would it be right to say that

19 things were going so well that if you hadn't been there, you wouldn't have

20 been necessary?

21 A. One could put it that way.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. I have another

23 question. How was the food transported?

24 A. By trucks of private owners.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Could you describe those trucks,

1 what type of trucks they were?

2 A. The brand was Zastava 750.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The containers, were they small,

4 individual containers or were these large containers where all the food

5 was contained? You know, you can have a large container which are then

6 divided up into small portions, or were they already served in the small

7 portions?

8 A. They were large containers, and we had our own small dishes, and

9 then the food was poured from the big container to each of us

10 individually.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see. And when the food was in

12 the trucks, could you see the food that was inside?

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So the receptacles were open or

15 closed?

16 A. Closed.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] How could you see then?

18 A. When the food was being served out.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see. Mr. Pusac, that brings

20 to an end our questions. We thank you very much for coming here, and we

21 wish you a safe journey home. Thank you very much. Mr. Usher is going to

22 accompany you out.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

24 [The witness withdrew]

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic.

1 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence now calls

2 the last witness for this week. His name is Djordje Stupar.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Stupar. Can

5 you hear me?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please read the solemn

8 declaration given to you by the usher.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

10 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please take a seat.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 WITNESS: DJORDJE STUPAR

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness' other microphone be switched

16 on, please.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Are you comfortable?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for coming.

20 You will first be answering questions that will be put to you by

21 Mr. Krstan Simic.

22 Mr. Krstan Simic, you have the floor.

23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Examined by Mr. K. Simic:

25 Q. Mr. Stupar, good morning.

1 A. Good morning.

2 Q. You know that my name is Krstan Simic, and together with

3 Mr. Lukic, we are representing Mr. Kvocka. So our questions will be

4 relevant to the events that occurred in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992.

5 A. Please do so.

6 Q. Let me ask you to make a pause after my question so that

7 everything can be interpreted and to avoid any overlap for the benefit of

8 the record and Their Honours, of course.

9 Could you please, for the record, tell us your full name?

10 A. Djordje Stupar.

11 Q. Mr. Stupar, when were you born?

12 A. On the 17th of December, 1950.

13 Q. Where were you born?

14 A. Banja Luka.

15 Q. Is that where you are residing?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Have you done your military service and where?

18 A. I have, from November 1993 until February 1995. No. I'm sorry.

19 November 1973 until February 1975, in Nis.

20 Q. What was your speciality during your military training?

21 A. The platoon for maintenance, as a metalworker.

22 Q. When you completed your military service, were you registered as a

23 military conscript?

24 A. I was, under the same speciality.

25 Q. Will you make a pause after my question, please. Where were you

1 registered as a military conscript?

2 A. In Banja Luka.

3 Q. Are you married?

4 A. I am.

5 Q. Do you have any children?

6 A. I do, two.

7 Q. What did you do in the course of 1991 and 1992 in your civilian

8 life?

9 A. I had a private business of my own that collected wastepaper and

10 recycled it.

11 Q. Where was your firm based?

12 A. In Banja Luka.

13 Q. In your company, as assets, did you have a vehicle?

14 A. Yes, I did. I had three trucks and a forklift.

15 Q. According to the regulations in force at the time, was it possible

16 for the assets, such as private vehicles, to be requisitioned from private

17 and legal entities for the need of military exercises or the armed

18 conflict?

19 A. Yes, of course.

20 Q. Were any of your vehicles on the list for requisitioning should

21 there be a mobilisation?

22 A. Yes. One truck was subject to requisitioning.

23 Q. Where was the place of requisitioning?

24 A. The Rakovacke Bare locality.

25 Q. What is that locality? Is it the headquarters of a military unit?

1 A. Believe me, I don't know. I know there was a shooting ground

2 there for military training.

3 Q. In the course of the first half of 1992, was your vehicle, your

4 truck, actually requisitioned?

5 A. Yes, it was.

6 Q. Do you know a person called Franjo Gagula?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Who is he?

9 A. He is an acquaintance of mine. He is a florist; he purchases and

10 sells flowers.

11 Q. Do you know whether any of his vehicles were requisitioned in

12 1992?

13 A. Yes. A Nissan and a Golf 2, as we call it, a VW.

14 Q. Mr. Stupar, according to the rules that were being enforced at the

15 time, what were the rights of the owners of vehicles that were being

16 requisitioned for the needs of a particular military unit, as envisaged by

17 the mobilisation plan?

18 A. Owners had some rights of compensation. Whoever requisitioned the

19 vehicle was under the obligation to return it to the owner in the same

20 condition in which it was requisitioned, and our obligation was to give it

21 in proper operational order.

22 Q. Do you know what happened to the vehicle of Mr. Franjo Gagula?

23 A. While the vehicle was being used for the purpose for which it was

24 requisitioned, the vehicle disappeared, it was stolen.

25 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Gagula was given compensation for the loss

1 of his vehicle, a Golf?

2 A. He said that he was given a court ruling in his favour.

3 Q. Did he tell you which court passed this decision?

4 A. I think he said it was the Banja Luka Municipal Court.

5 Q. Did he tell you whether he ever actually collected the sum

6 envisaged for compensation of this vehicle?

7 A. I think that until 15 days ago he did not collect the money.

8 Q. Talking to you, did he tell you that that decision was final?

9 A. I think he did say that it was final, but I'm not quite sure.

10 Q. What ethnicity is Mr. Franjo Gagula?

11 A. He is a Croat.

12 Q. Mr. Stupar, while you were engaged in your private business, were

13 you well-off?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you own an apartment in Belgrade as well?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. Do you have any brothers or sisters?

18 A. I have a brother.

19 Q. What is his name?

20 A. Bosko Stupar.

21 Q. Where is your brother, Bosko Stupar, living?

22 A. He is living in Toronto, Canada, ever since 1972.

23 Q. How old was your son in 1992?

24 A. He was 16.

25 Q. In 1992, as a military conscript, were you drafted?

1 A. I was.

2 Q. Where?

3 A. In 1992, I was first drafted to go to the Banja Luka airport.

4 Q. In what status? In what position? What speciality, rather?

5 A. As a metalworker.

6 Q. No. I'm asking you whether you were a member of the army or the

7 police.

8 A. The first time I was mobilised by the army; after that I was

9 mobilised for the reserve police force.

10 Q. Can you remember in what month you became a member of the reserve

11 police force, which meant a change of your status?

12 A. That was at the beginning of June 1992.

13 Q. Mr. Stupar, let us go back to these questions regarding

14 mobilisation for a moment, because I omitted to ask you: As the owner of

15 a vehicle or another technical asset which, under the regulations in

16 force, came under requisitioning orders by a military unit or institution,

17 if you were to ignore such an obligation, were any sanctions envisaged for

18 failure to observe those regulations?

19 A. Yes. Criminal liability was envisaged.

20 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I should like to show

21 members of the Trial Chamber ... [No interpretation]

22 JUDGE RIAD: There is no translation on the English channel.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Interpreters, please check your buttons.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, yes, we apologise. Counsel is distributing

25 copies of the document to Their Honours, the Prosecution, and the

1 Registry, which he will tender into evidence later on as D41/1.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic, please go

3 ahead.

4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

5 Q. Were criminal charges filed with civilian or military courts for

6 military conscripts?

7 A. I think it was to military courts.

8 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show the

9 witness this document just briefly, please.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic, the document

11 you are showing, is it relevant to this witness or not?

12 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] This document regards relevant

13 facts we have discussed here, and it speaks to the fact that a certain

14 vehicle was requisitioned. We don't even have to see it. The prosecution

15 files criminal charges and certain sanctions are entailed. We only want

16 the Trial Chamber to have a full picture of the state of affairs as it was

17 then and that which was relevant to all persons that had a wartime

18 assignment.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. Simic. The

20 problem is that this witness is not a lawyer. This document does not

21 concern him directly, but I will allow this question.

22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

23 Q. Mr. Stupar, just one question. Is this the procedure which

24 applied if anyone should refuse to hand over their vehicle?

25 A. I believe so.

1 Q. Just another one. It says, "Request for Investigation Against

2 Andja Jovic." What ethnicity is this person?

3 A. I don't know.

4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, I have no

5 further questions relating to this.

6 Q. I would like to go back just for a moment and then we will pick up

7 where we left off. What were your duties in your role as reserve

8 policeman in the first half of 1992?

9 A. We physically provided security of the Banja Luka radio station,

10 of the municipality of Banja Luka, of the government auditing agency, SDK,

11 and we also did guard duty in the police station.

12 Q. Was your status identical to that of a regular, professional

13 policeman, in terms of your duties?

14 A. I really don't know.

15 Q. Did active-duty policemen provide security for these facilities

16 together with you? Did you notice that?

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne.

18 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, the witness said that he is not

19 personally aware who provided the security, so Mr. Simic is asking the

20 question again.

21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I asked --

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please wait a minute. You know

23 that there is this delay because of interpretation. Mr. Simic, you may

24 continue now.

25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just asked whether

1 the status was identical, and my next question relates to facts, who did

2 what, things that can be observed.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please ask your question.

4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Together with you personally, did any of the professional

6 policemen work there providing security?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Mr. Stupar, did you at one point, facing the problems created by

9 prewar and then wartime conditions, decide to leave both the reserve

10 police force and the town of Banja Luka?

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne.

12 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Counsel is leading the witness.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, please ask your

14 question but rephrase it first.

15 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Stupar, did you leave Banja Luka?

17 A. Yes, I did, together with my family.

18 Q. Why?

19 A. Well, the living conditions weren't normal and I was fearing for

20 the safety of my family.

21 Q. What is your ethnicity?

22 A. Serb.

23 Q. When did you make the decision to do this?

24 A. Somewhere at the end of July 1992.

25 Q. Was it an easy thing to do, just to decide and say, "Well, I'm

1 leaving now"?

2 A. Well, it was not that easy. It required time and preparation.

3 Q. Why was it difficult to do?

4 A. Well, Banja Luka was in a very special situation. It was not

5 possible to leave without special exit permits and permits for passage

6 through the corridor was opened towards Serbia, the corridor you had to

7 use if you wanted to leave, and from there on to other destinations.

8 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber from which date was this corridor

9 opened? When did the physical connection between Belgrade and Banja Luka

10 start to exist?

11 A. The 28th of June, 1992, the surface connection between Belgrade

12 and Banja Luka came into existence.

13 Q. Before that day, was there any traffic of people or goods from

14 either direction?

15 A. No. Banja Luka, that is, the entire region, was surrounded,

16 encircled.

17 Q. Was it a blockade of the region? How did foodstuffs, cigarettes,

18 medicines, find their way into Banja Luka?

19 A. All that was very difficult. There was no electricity, it was

20 difficult to get food, there was no oxygen, newborn babies were dying due

21 to banal problems, and everybody who lived there experienced the same

22 conditions. The situation was very difficult for everyone.

23 Q. Mr. Stupar, do you remember how much we paid for a sack of flour

24 while we were surrounded?

25 A. Believe me, I cannot remember, because inflation was staggering

1 even then, but it was a lot of money, dinars.

2 Q. How long was there no electricity, the maximum period of time

3 without electricity?

4 A. I believe it was 42 days.

5 Q. Was it a period of high temperatures?

6 A. Yes. Heats were very bad. It was difficult to preserve food.

7 You don't have the fridge; you can't use it. You have to cook on fire.

8 It was 40 degrees outside and about the same inside.

9 Q. When you spoke of the difficulties involved in leaving for

10 Belgrade on a private or a business trip, could you tell the Trial Chamber

11 what did it look like exactly?

12 A. Well, before I took my family there, I made the trip twice to

13 check what it was like. I had regular civilian papers, but I was wearing

14 my uniform to make it easier. It made it easier to pass. It was a trip

15 of about 440 kilometres. I think 40 kilometres in two stages across zones

16 of military actions. There was shelling on sections of the road. It was

17 hard to make the decision to risk my wife's and my children's lives and

18 take them there, but still I did it.

19 Q. Mr. Stupar, concerning that departure - I'm not speaking about you

20 but about any person - was it necessary to get a permit to go to

21 Belgrade?

22 A. Yes. You had to get a permit for this trip, travel permit.

23 Q. Who issued it?

24 A. The police.

25 Q. Were there any changes at any point, changes in the jurisdiction

1 in terms of who issued these permits?

2 A. All I could notice was that the place where these permits were

3 issued changed.

4 Q. Where were they issued earlier?

5 A. At the police station at first, and then the office was

6 transferred to a cabin of the local commune of Borik, I think one or two.

7 Q. Can you remember who signed such a travel permit?

8 A. I honestly don't know.

9 Q. On the road from Banja Luka to Belgrade, that is, Bijeljina,

10 because that was the point where you were leaving Bosnia-Herzegovina, did

11 anyone check you?

12 A. Well, travelling with my family to Belgrade, my son was making --

13 was keeping a record of the checkpoint we passed and there were 43

14 marks -- sorry, 64 marks on his record; that is, we passed 64

15 checkpoints.

16 Q. Were you stopped at each of these checkpoints? Did you have to

17 show your papers and explain why you were travelling?

18 A. Almost at each one.

19 Q. Did everyone at all times have the possibility to come to this

20 station and ask for this permit, just saying, "I'm going to Belgrade," or

21 did they have to explain and document their request?

22 A. Of course you had to provide documents. Of course everyone could

23 ask for this permit, but not everyone could get it.

24 Q. What was the reason you cited for leaving Bosnia and Herzegovina?

25 A. I said it was a business trip, required for my business purposes.

1 Q. Could you have gone there and said, "I'm sick and tired of this.

2 I don't like this. Gentlemen, let me go. Let me have this permit"?

3 A. No, you couldn't have done that.

4 Q. Did you, in keeping with the regulations then in force, unlawfully

5 leave Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is, by means of deception?

6 A. In which way?

7 Q. Did you do it by deceiving the authorities, making them believe

8 that the purpose of your trip was different from what it actually was?

9 A. We can call it that. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Under the law and in practice, were there any consequences or

11 sanctions envisaged for people who decided of their own accord to leave

12 their military, their wartime assignment, or their work obligation

13 assignment in whichever unit they were posted to?

14 A. They were subjected to prosecution as deserters.

15 Q. Was such an act supported or condemned by the majority of the

16 population in Bosnia-Herzegovina, in the communities?

17 A. It was supported.

18 Q. Was it supported generally that deserters should be prosecuted or

19 not?

20 A. It was supported indeed that they should be prosecuted as

21 deserters.

22 Q. Were you in a position to go to Belgrade with your family? Would

23 you have been able to do that if you had not had that apartment or were

24 you materially provided for? If you hadn't been materially provided for.

25 A. I don't think I would have.

1 Q. How long did you stay in Belgrade?

2 A. From the 15th of September until the 26th of December, 1992. That

3 means two months and nine or ten days.

4 Q. What did you decide to do then?

5 A. I left the country and went to Canada.

6 Q. Why did you decide to leave Belgrade?

7 A. Because everything was starting to be felt in Belgrade as well.

8 There were refugees, unemployment, insecurity. Those were the reasons.

9 Q. This decision to go to Canada together with your family, was it

10 possible to accomplish because you had a brother there already who already

11 had a family there and got settled?

12 A. My brother provided me with the papers necessary for me to leave

13 for Canada.

14 Q. You said a moment ago that such actions were subject to

15 prosecution, the filing of criminal charges.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Were any criminal charges filed against you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Are you aware that similar charges were filed against other

20 persons?

21 A. Of course they were.

22 Q. Did a man named Arso work in those -- with you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did he have an only son?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Where did his son work in 1991/1992, in which town?

2 A. In Banja Luka. He worked in Banja Luka.

3 Q. Did he too leave Banja Luka?

4 A. Yes. In the spring of 1992.

5 Q. Were criminal charges filed against him?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And despite the danger you were aware of, the danger of

8 prosecution, you made your decision as you did, right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you have any opportunity to hear about rulings made by

11 military authorities against persons in your status?

12 A. No.

13 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at this point I would

14 like to ask the usher's assistance in distributing to the Trial Chamber

15 and the Prosecution a set of verdicts brought by the Military Court of

16 Banja Luka, and it would be marked D42/1.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Why, to inform the witness? The

18 witness said that he never found out.

19 Q. Did you have any opportunity to hear about rulings made

20 by military authorities against persons in your status?

21 A. No.

22 Why then this document, Mr. Simic?

23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, one of the questions

24 being asked and which will be asked during these proceedings was the

25 question of choice or lack of choice in deciding to leave your place of

1 residence. We only want this Trial Chamber to gain an insight into their

2 situation and to realise that it was not possible to leave without the

3 support that Mr. Stupar had and without the financial advantages such as

4 the apartment in Belgrade. And the verdicts, which the Trial Chamber will

5 see if they admit this into evidence, reflecting the entire system will

6 realise what the relationships were at the time and what options were open

7 to the people who are being -- who are on trial here. I think that is --

8 I would say that this is reason enough, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne.

10 MR. WAIDYARATNE: The Prosecution objects to these documents, Your

11 Honour. As Your Honour said, this witness said very clearly and directly

12 that he is totally unaware of any rulings which were made by any military

13 high authorities. And also, I see no basis for Mr. Simic to enter these

14 things because these, which I just see, the documents refer to many

15 persons and with certain judgements, and the witness has not spoken

16 anything about these documents, and he in fact very clearly said at the

17 outset that he knows nothing about these verdicts.

18 Thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE WALD: Let me ask a question about your objection.

20 Admittedly leaving this witness out who has said he doesn't know, do you

21 have some inherent objection to documents like this coming in as exhibits

22 simply to show that, you know, if they've been listed in exhibits that

23 they're judgements of the Military Court of Banja Luka, showing that they

24 prosecuted people who wouldn't -- who left while they were still on

25 military status? I mean, is there anything inherit you object to apart

1 from the lack of linkage with this particular witness?

2 I think the purpose is pretty clear, what he wants. He wants to

3 show that it was pretty hard to --

4 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I agree, Your Honour. But Mr. Simic has not

5 referred to the law, as to what law these judgements pertain to, under

6 what circumstances it had been made.

7 JUDGE WALD: Yours is an authentication objection or ...

8 MR. WAIDYARATNE: No, about the law, under which law which these

9 people have been tried.

10 JUDGE WALD: So in your judgement, what would he have to do? In

11 your judgement, what would he have to do, bring in an expert in Banja Luka

12 law or something and explain this?

13 MR. WAIDYARATNE: At last some -- the Act itself, the law.

14 JUDGE WALD: All right. Thank you.

15 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The question is it makes no

17 sense to tender or admit -- I would say it makes no sense to show this

18 document to the witness if he says he was never aware of them. Another --

19 there may be another way to tender these documents into evidence, but for

20 this witness, they are not relevant. If you present these documents to

21 the witness now, he will say what he already said, "I was not aware of

22 them." That's the problem.

23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I accept your

24 suggestion. It was not my intention for these documents to be related to

25 Mr. Stupar, to be linked to Mr. Stupar alone. But Mr. Stupar says

1 explicitly that anyone who violated the regulations or failed to hand in

2 their vehicles was subject to prosecution.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We're not going to repeat the

4 witness' testimony.

5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may, just

6 another sentence, please. May I respond to Mr. Waidyaratne?

7 The legislation underlying these judgements is the criminal law of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina which was in force from 1991 through 1995.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. It was not switched

11 on.

12 I was saying, I just read that it was Article 214, Paragraph 1, in

13 conjunction with Article 226. That is something that we can read from the

14 document. But I'm going to confer with my colleagues.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, we agree that these

17 documents have nothing to do with the witness. What is strange is that

18 you are asking now for those documents to be tendered. They have nothing

19 to do with the testimony. I think that they are a part of a whole set of

20 documents that you mentioned in your prior brief, pre-Defence brief, and

21 in relation to which the Chamber said that it would wait to see the

22 documents in order to be able to decide whether or not the Chamber would

23 admit them. We made such an announcement at the beginning of this week.

24 I can't be more specific now and you know I am talking off the

25 bat. But the arguments that you mentioned, documents under D59 until I

1 don't know which number, you know that the Prosecution objected to some

2 documents and not to others. We said at the beginning of this week that

3 all those documents need to reach the Trial Chamber for us to be able to

4 examine them and then make a decision.

5 So my suggestion to you is to withdraw your request to admit these

6 documents but to collect all the documents that you would like to tender

7 into evidence, to have all those documents given to the Trial Chamber. We

8 will review them - the Chamber already knows the opinion of the

9 Prosecution - and then the Chamber will rule.

10 Why don't we act in an organised manner? We have already made

11 such a decision and that is why I reacted. I see no link between these

12 documents and this particular witness. I can see that there is relevance

13 for the case but not in this way.

14 If you agree, please send to the Trial Chamber all the documents,

15 the whole batch, the whole set of documents, that you told us you would

16 like to tender into evidence - you told us this in your pre-trial brief -

17 and the Chamber, as it said at the beginning of this week, will review

18 them and decide whether or not to admit them.

19 What is your response, Mr. Simic?

20 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I accept your

21 suggestion. I withdraw these documents. In the view of the Prosecution,

22 these are the only documents where they have concern over their

23 relevance. They are, for now, withdrawn and we will wait for another

24 opportune moment to tender them, once you have made the decision regarding

25 the relevance of these documents for the case. I thank you very much.

1 That is all for now. I have no further questions for this

2 witness.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we are returning the

4 documents.

5 Mr. Simic, we lost quite a bit of time because, in a certain

6 sense, we have already made a decision. We communicated to the parties

7 that the Chamber was waiting for you to send us the documents for us to be

8 able to review them. In any event, we will decide. Because, in my

9 opinion, I tend to feel that the documents speak for themselves. So if

10 you send us the documents, they speak for themselves. We will analyse

11 them - we already know the position of the Prosecution - and after that we

12 will make our decision. So thank you very much.

13 You said that you had finished your examination-in-chief, didn't

14 you?

15 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, then.

17 It is five past one so we are going to have our long break now,

18 that is, a long break of 50 minutes.

19 --- Recess taken at 1.05 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 2.00 p.m.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

22 Mr. Usher.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stupar, you're now going to

25 be answering questions put to you by the Prosecution, and it is

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1 Mr. Waidyaratne who will be asking you questions.

2 You have the floor.

3 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:

5 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Stupar.

6 A. Good afternoon.

7 Q. Do you know any of these accused who are here in this court?

8 A. I don't know any of them.

9 Q. What made you come -- what made you come here to give evidence on

10 behalf of Mr. Kvocka?

11 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.

13 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] We discussed that at length, and we

14 said that witnesses testify in the interests of justice, and this

15 particular witness was called by the Defence of Mr. Kvocka to give his

16 testimony and that's all.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne.

18 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I will proceed, Your Honour.

19 Q. Do you know Mr. Simic, who is appearing for Mr. Kvocka?

20 A. Yes, we know each other.

21 Q. For how long?

22 A. Well, by sight, at least 20 years.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. I just want to know. Only by sight?

25 A. That long, yes. And we greet each other -- we have been greeting

1 each other and exchanging a few words for, let me say, the past 15 years.

2 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you.

3 MR. WAIDYARATNE:

4 Q. Did anybody contact you or was it on your own that you came to

5 give this testimony?

6 A. I was contacted by Mr. Simic in order to speak about how I left my

7 native town and went to Canada.

8 Q. Thank you. Mr. Stupar, now, you said that you were mobilised

9 before you went to Belgrade. It was not very clear. Could you kindly

10 clear up as to when you were stationed in the Banja Luka airport?

11 A. At the airport in Banja Luka, I was a drafted soldier at the

12 beginning of 1992.

13 Q. Then you said that you left to Belgrade at the end of July 1992;

14 am I correct?

15 A. I left for Belgrade with my family on the 15th of September,

16 1992. That was the last time. I definitely left for Belgrade on that

17 date.

18 Q. You left Banja Luka in September.

19 A. The 15th of September, 8.00 in the morning.

20 Q. Were you still mobilised during that time?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So is it your position that you deserted?

23 A. You could say that, yes.

24 Q. Was any action taken against you subsequently?

25 A. As far as I know, the indictment is still open in the military

1 department charging me --

2 Q. When did you --

3 A. -- and that I will be criminally prosecuted.

4 Q. When did you come back from Canada to Banja Luka?

5 A. September 1998.

6 Q. Were you given any charges for deserting after you came back?

7 A. Not directly.

8 Q. Can you say where is -- who charged you, which authority?

9 A. The ministry of the army.

10 Q. And it's still pending; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Were there any other allegations or charges against you?

13 A. No.

14 Q. None at all?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Nothing at all?

17 A. No, nothing at all.

18 Q. Now, Mr. Stupar, you said it was difficult to leave Banja Luka in

19 1992, and in fact you had to go in your uniform for your own safety; is

20 that correct?

21 A. Yes, that's correct, for my own safety and for me to be able to

22 pass by more easily.

23 Q. Now, that was the day when you started off in September. Now, you

24 said that you had to get special permits, exit permits, and in fact you

25 mentioned another permit, a travel permit. Could you tell me from where

1 you get these permits? Was it difficult for you?

2 A. First of all, as a private individual, I open a travelling

3 document in the name of my own company. On the basis of those travel

4 certificates or documents, I go to a secretariat of some kind which then

5 issues me with a permit for travelling to Serbia and Belgrade.

6 Q. Yes, Mr. Stupar, I'm talking about you leaving -- when you left

7 Banja Luka in 1992, in the month of September; am I clear?

8 A. Yes. I don't think you're clear on one point; that is to say,

9 what I did was to open travel documents for my wife and for myself, and on

10 the basis of those business travel documents, we were given permits, that

11 is to say, my wife and myself. My children didn't need this kind of

12 permit because they were minors, they were travelling with us.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. You're welcome.

15 Q. Now, you left under the pretext that you were going on a business

16 trip; am I correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, for any other individual, specially non-Serbs, do you know

19 what they had to have to leave the country?

20 A. I think that they had to have a lot of different papers,

21 documents; that they had paid their electricity bills, that they had

22 discontinued their telephone, that they had paid up all their utility dues

23 and everything else. That was difficult to come by, because in order to

24 get those documents, people would see that you were planning to leave. So

25 I didn't dare do that.

1 Q. So your position is that it was very difficult for the non-Serbs

2 to leave the country.

3 A. Not only for non-Serbs, for everybody. It was more difficult, in

4 fact, for Serbs to leave than for the non-Serbs.

5 Q. Now, when the non-Serbs left, do you know what happened to their

6 property? Especially I am speaking of -- referring to the landowners,

7 like house and land?

8 A. I don't know. I really don't know. What I was bent on doing was

9 getting me and my family out. That was my priority.

10 Q. Mr. Stupar, what did you do to your assets when you left Banja

11 Luka?

12 A. I left them to a friend I could trust, for a certain amount of

13 time, and I asked him to try and save those assets. We had reached an

14 agreement that if he was faced with a difficult situation, that he was to

15 leave everything. But he managed to safeguard my assets. I don't know

16 how he managed to do that, but he did.

17 Q. You did not have to turn them over to any authority, especially

18 the authority which was in power during that time?

19 A. The very fact of handing my assets over, I would indicate to them

20 that I was leaving the country and thereby bring myself and my family, and

21 particularly my wife, who was a non-Serb, into danger.

22 Q. Now, Mr. Stupar, I don't think you understood my question. You

23 didn't have to turn over your assets, your house and property, to the

24 Serbian authorities when you left?

25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.

2 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness has

3 several times stated that he feigned a business trip. He wanted to cover

4 the fact that he was leaving and, therefore, his assets and property were

5 left to carry on working. As a Serb, he could not depart and say, "I'm

6 leaving my assets and property." What he had to do was leave under the

7 pretext of going on a business trip.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Waidyaratne.

9 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I will rephrase the question in a different

10 way.

11 Q. Could you tell us as to what happened to your house and property

12 when you left Banja Luka? Did you have them when you returned in 1998?

13 A. Yes, I did. It's still mine. Everything is still mine, probably

14 thanks to the fact that I didn't register that I was leaving. I didn't

15 inform anybody that I was leaving. Had I done that, everything would

16 probably have been confiscated and perhaps destroyed or whatever.

17 Q. Mr. Stupar, if you're aware, do you know as to what the non-Serbs,

18 especially the Muslims, who left Banja Luka had to do with their house and

19 property?

20 A. I don't know the details.

21 Q. When you returned, did you see as to what happened to the Muslim

22 houses and the property that they own?

23 A. Well, there's some people living in those houses and apartments,

24 who were displaced from other areas, such as Sarajevo, Mostar, and so on,

25 and they had suffered the same fate as those who fled from Banja Luka,

1 perhaps even worse.

2 Q. And they are Serbs?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, Mr. Stupar, if you know, do you know as to what the

5 population was in 1991, the Muslim population in Banja Luka?

6 A. I really don't know. I can't say.

7 Q. Do you know that the majority of the Muslims left Banja Luka in

8 1992 or were forced to leave Banja Luka?

9 A. Well, as far as I know, in 1992 and 1993, they left Banja Luka.

10 Most of the Muslims left.

11 Q. Now, Mr. Stupar, you spoke about, in your direct examination,

12 about the difficult times that you had in Banja Luka. Were you, the

13 Serbs, under threat in Banja Luka?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. You don't know any village or town which was attacked or was under

16 threat in Banja Luka? No Serb towns were attacked? No villages were

17 attacked?

18 A. Well, there was tension, war tensions. There was information put

19 out and this raised tensions. Now, what was true in all this and what was

20 said, I don't know. Perhaps we'll learn the truth one day. But we all

21 lived the same.

22 Q. But you're unaware of any attacks of any Serb villages in Banja

23 Luka?

24 A. Well, there were some attacks around Mrkonjic Grad and villages

25 thereabouts.

1 Q. Now, Mr. Stupar, just being in Banja Luka, were you aware, before

2 your departure in 1992, that there were two mosques in Banja Luka?

3 A. Yes, of course I knew.

4 Q. And the Catholic church?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you know what happened to that, those buildings, the premises?

7 A. The Catholic church exists to the present day, both Catholic

8 churches, whereas the two mosques that you are probably referring to were

9 destroyed. Now, who the perpetrators were is not known to the present

10 day.

11 Q. You were talking about the requisition of the vehicles during the

12 time of the conflict, and you said that some were compensated. Did you

13 get any compensation for your vehicle?

14 A. No, I did not.

15 Q. Did you make an application for compensation?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Why didn't you get compensation?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Did you try to find out about it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you get to know anything about it?

22 A. They told me that I should let it be for the time being and not to

23 take any steps in that direction. I was told that unofficially by some

24 friends.

25 Q. So you are unable to give the reason as to why you were said so.

1 Is that your position?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. Mr. Stupar, just one more matter. The time that you left for

4 Belgrade from Banja Luka, were you able to take any amount of money,

5 currency exchange?

6 A. I had it on me.

7 Q. Unofficially.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you know how much, officially, you could take out when you left

10 the country?

11 A. No.

12 Q. How much money did you have when you left the country? Are you in

13 a position to say that?

14 A. When I left Banja Luka, I had about 50.000 German marks, and two

15 days after my departure from Banja Luka, I sent a truck to Belgrade which

16 I then sold there for 35.000 German marks, which means that in Belgrade, I

17 had a total of 85.000 German marks at my disposal.

18 Q. But you know that it was not officially allowed?

19 A. Of course.

20 MR. WAIDYARATNE: If you would bear with me, Your Honour.

21 [Prosecution counsel confer]

22 MR. WAIDYARATNE:

23 Q. Mr. Stupar, concluding, have you been by anyone promised any

24 pardon, amnesty, or special treatment relating to the indictment that is

25 pending against you for testifying today?

1 A. No.

2 MR. WAIDYARATNE: That's all, Your Honour. Thank you.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, please.

4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I just

5 have two basic questions.

6 Re-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

7 Q. Mr. Stupar, a little while ago, Mr. Waidyaratne asked you whether

8 you received compensation for the vehicle that was requisitioned, and I'd

9 now like to ask you to tell the Court whether your vehicle was returned to

10 you.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What application for compensation did you file?

13 A. For anything out of order to be repaired, and there was some

14 compensation for the daily use of my vehicle.

15 Q. Was that a significant sum, the compensation that you received?

16 And were there any major repairs to be done?

17 A. The repairs were paid for by the army in 1992, when the vehicle

18 was returned. And compensation for the days the car was used, I think

19 that when this was paid out, it was a substantial sum. But as there was

20 such rampant inflation at the time, the sum would be absurdly small,

21 negligible, today.

22 Q. Thank you. My learned colleague also asked you whether you were

23 promised any kind of amnesty or pardon with respect to your desertion and

24 the charges brought against you, and in that connection, I should like to

25 ask you the following:

1 Are you aware, do you know that under pressure of the

2 International Community and in keeping with the Dayton Accords, a law was

3 enacted whereby all persons were amnestied in the territory of the whole

4 of Bosnia-Herzegovina for this type of criminal action, criminal offences,

5 of the kind that you were charged with?

6 A. Yes, I do know that.

7 Q. Does that mean that, in keeping with that law on amnesty, you are

8 no longer the subject of prosecution?

9 A. Yes, that should be the case.

10 Q. Did you ever receive a document of any kind stipulating that,

11 pursuant to the amnesty law, you will not be further charged?

12 A. No, I did not receive that.

13 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no

14 further questions.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Simic.

16 Judge Fouad Riad, would you like to ask anything?

17 JUDGE RIAD: Yes, just one question, thank you.

18 Questioned by the Court:

19 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Stupar, good afternoon. Can you hear me?

20 A. Good afternoon. Yes, I can, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Simic just asked you the question I wanted to

22 ask, but I would like to have, perhaps a more, what can I say, fulfilling

23 answer.

24 You said you might have been amnestied or pardoned, but you

25 were -- in fact, you went after that home and nobody mentioned to you that

1 you were amnestied or pardoned; is that right? It's an important issue.

2 Did you give it your attention and try to find out? Did they come to you

3 and try to -- it's a very serious charge, desertion. Did you give it any

4 follow-up or attention to know what's happened?

5 A. Those are two -- well, two points. Nobody came to inform me that

6 I was amnestied nor that the charges brought against me had been stopped,

7 nor did I ask to see what was happening with the file. So that it is --

8 they are frozen. They have not been solved. I don't know. They are

9 frozen at present.

10 JUDGE RIAD: Did you know that they were frozen when you went back

11 home, and you were going safely, knowing that nothing would happen to you

12 with charges?

13 A. I assumed that everything would be all right and that nobody would

14 touch me.

15 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Fouad

17 Riad. Judge Wald has no questions. I have one.

18 Perhaps it's my fault, but I didn't quite understand, what was the

19 date of your return to Banja Luka from Canada? I think it was 1998.

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can you remember the date with

22 greater precision, the exact date?

23 A. I think it was the middle of September 1998.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In answer to a question from

25 Mr. Simic, you said that you were aware of the amnesty law. Do you know

1 the date of that law?

2 A. I do not. I think it was part of the Dayton Accords.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let me ask you another

4 question. Before returning to Banja Luka or Bosnia-Herzegovina, did you

5 know, were you aware of this law on a general amnesty?

6 A. I was. I knew that it existed. Now, whether it was being

7 implemented fully is something I didn't know.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You said that charges against

9 you were still valid. What does that mean, that they were still pending?

10 A. What I meant was that in a dispute over my apartment in August,

11 they showed me at a court hearing a document saying that criminal

12 proceedings were under way in the Defence Ministry against me because I

13 had illegally left the country in 1992/1993, because the authorities

14 couldn't establish exactly when it was I had left the country. So that's

15 what I meant.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The date that you mentioned,

17 August, that's August 2000, or what year was that?

18 A. Yes, August 2000.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see. So these charges, were

20 they covered by the amnesty?

21 A. I don't know.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see. Perhaps there will be --

23 I would have a good solution, but I have no right to tell you that, I

24 realise that.

25 I have no further questions for you. All that remains for me to

1 say is to thank you for coming and to wish you a safe return home. Thank

2 you very much. I will ask the usher to accompany you out. Thank you.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

4 [The witness withdrew]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So, Mr. Simic, no more witnesses

6 for today?

7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] That is right, Your Honour, no more

8 witnesses. We have managed to abide by the time. I hope my guess will be

9 as right for next week.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I hope for even more than that,

11 that we will be able to make even more progress. I do congratulate you

12 that you have fulfilled your programme, but I do wish us to speed things

13 up as much as possible.

14 I think I understand that Ms. Susan Somers has something to say to

15 us.

16 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. There are two matters. One

17 is, I think, appropriate for open session and it just concerns a request

18 that if there -- if we could please have a confirmed order of witnesses

19 from Mr. Simic by tomorrow so that we can make sure that we have

20 everything in order to facilitate the presentation.

21 The second matter, I think, would require about one minute of

22 private session.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us address those

24 matters in that order.

25 Mr. Krstan Simic, you heard what Ms. Susan Somers has just

1 requested of you. Do you have anything to give her in response?

2 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I will do that. The order of

3 witnesses will be in accordance with the order notified in our brief with

4 the exception of these seven witnesses. But, Your Honours, in view of the

5 number of witnesses and the contents of their testimony, it may happen

6 that the list will be reduced by three or possibly four witnesses. But we

7 will inform the Prosecution in due time.

8 In any event, the order will be identical to the one given in our

9 last submission.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Susan Somers.

11 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, if it would be possible just to

12 confirm. Does that mean the original brief, the 65 ter original brief, or

13 the corrections? That's one part of the question.

14 The second is: We have asked the Registry as to whether or not

15 any aspect of the videolink preparation has been put in motion, simply

16 because it does take time. And if any of these witnesses are going to be

17 videolink witnesses, we just wanted to make sure the Chamber was apprised

18 of the status of the technical side of it.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, can you clarify this

20 point for Ms. Somers?

21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] My answer is that Ms. Somers will

22 receive a confirmed list tomorrow, and it is the same as the list that we

23 submitted at our meetings.

24 As regards the Defence for Mr. Kvocka, we have not envisaged any

25 video witnesses unless there may be requests for the cross-examination of

1 witnesses who submitted affidavits, and, of course, if the Trial Chamber

2 grants those requests as that is within the competence of the Trial

3 Chamber.

4 MS. SOMERS: May I simply respond? We have filed a response to

5 two affidavit witnesses, and we are seeking cross-examination as to them.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, you have

7 already communicated that to the Chamber, have you?

8 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me. I have to take a step back. I thought it

9 had been filed. It is to be filed before 4.00, but we are interposing

10 objections to the admission. However, if the Chamber does admit, then we

11 would ask simply for the right to cross-examine.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think there are several things

13 to address here. There are things that the parties can discuss amongst

14 themselves and spare the Chamber, because we have established a rule for

15 the parties to get in touch and try and reach agreement. If not, only

16 then come to the Chamber.

17 It is also quite possible for the Chamber to have to decide on

18 certain matters, and this question you have raised on video testimony

19 depends on the Chamber knowing first whether you wish to cross-examine or

20 not the witness, whether you accept or not the affidavits, and so on.

21 That depends. We don't know which affidavits you are not contesting and

22 which you are.

23 So there is no point in making a programme and sending people to

24 Banja Luka unless you need them. We need to know what our needs are and

25 make a programme accordingly. So tell us, please. Give us the

1 information so that we can organise ourselves. When I say "tell us," I'm

2 addressing myself to the Prosecution and also possibly the Defence, if

3 they also have something to convey to us.

4 So that is my response, Ms. Susan Somers. I think there is always

5 a possibility to get in touch with Ms. MacIntosh or Mr. Olivier Fourmy so

6 that we can organise things. I think that the Registrar will also take

7 initiatives which are requested of it by the Chamber. They can't do

8 anything without instructions from the Chamber.

9 So we have a scheme within which each one must do his bit to reach

10 our goal.

11 I'm going to ask Mr. Krstan Simic for us to be able to decide

12 about all the exhibits that you mentioned in your pre-Defence brief, to

13 have those documents reach us and the Prosecution so that we can review

14 them and see whether we will admit them or not. That is something that I

15 have already said today.

16 I think we have nothing else to deal with. Do you have something

17 to tell us or to add before we adjourn for today?

18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we filed a request for

19 protective measures yesterday, and we hope a decision will be forthcoming

20 as the second group of witnesses are already coming tomorrow.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I can give you the good news.

22 The Trial Chamber has already taken a decision.

23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers.

25 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, I wanted to ask if we could have a

1 moment of private session. It's a matter that Mr. O'Sullivan and I wanted

2 to bring to your attention.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. I was just about to

4 forget that. So we'll go into private session for a moment.

5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 [Open session]

12 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] It seems to me that Mr. Fila had

14 something to say. You have the floor, Mr. Fila.

15 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I thought this problem

16 of videolink would be solved, but there are two issues that arise.

17 At the end of all the Defence cases, will we have one videolink

18 for witnesses for whom affidavits were used and for which the Chamber

19 rules that they should be cross-examined by video in the order of the

20 indictment or will we organise a videolink for each of the Defence cases

21 separately?

22 If we were to do it for each Defence case, then the rhythm and

23 timetable of the hearings might be upset, because I wish to draw the

24 attention of the Chamber that we will use our two weeks for the

25 presentation of evidence here in court, and what the Prosecution is

1 requesting, and if this request is granted, that is, the cross-examination

2 of my experts in my case or affidavit witnesses, I have no intention of

3 spending my time for the benefit of the Prosecution. So the Chamber will

4 have to find some additional time to meet the requests of Ms. Somers. So

5 I would request that a decision be made about this.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila. As always, you

7 have raised a good point. I had it in mind myself, exactly to see how

8 we're going to proceed. It's one thing to send a team to hear two

9 witnesses, for instance, have them brought back, and then again send the

10 same team back again to hear one witness, then they come back, et cetera,

11 et cetera.

12 So the question does indeed arise whether we could not perhaps

13 see, and I was going to suggest that we wait until we hear the Prosecutor

14 tell us, "I wish to cross-examine such-and-such witness," and once we know

15 the position of the Prosecution, then we would know whose affidavits have

16 not been accepted, and they need to be cross-examined, how many such

17 persons there are, and then we can discuss amongst ourselves to see

18 whether we agree to move for one week, for two days or three days, or for

19 one day to hear all the people over there at once, to do it at the same

20 time instead of the other way.

21 So I think that we have to think about this, but perhaps it is too

22 early. But still it is important to have all that information.

23 Otherwise, it could be too late.

24 I would like to ask the Prosecution to make an extra effort to

25 tell us what their position is in relation to all the affidavits so that

1 we might organise ourselves.

2 As I have said, I have asked the Defence to do everything in their

3 power for the important witnesses to come here to the courtroom. I know

4 it's difficult to make the decision, because, after all, all witnesses are

5 important, but those that the Defence wish to call here, that they should

6 do so. As for the others, that we should use affidavits. This was more

7 or less a directive of the Chamber.

8 Now I'm asking the Prosecution. Tell us, with a maximum degree of

9 optimism, how we can facilitate things, because as I have already said, we

10 have to complete this case, so facilitate things, of course, without

11 prejudice to justice. If you have serious reasons for cross-examining,

12 tell us, or if you can facilitate things, tell us that too so we can

13 organise ourselves. As soon as we have your reply, we can have a Status

14 Conference to discuss all these matters.

15 Ms. Susan Somers.

16 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, if I could in the next day or so, in the

17 next day, give a summary to the Chamber and copies to counsel as to

18 exactly what we have in the way of affidavits, because the two Kvocka ones

19 are the subject of today's response, and I tried to get it in earlier than

20 it was due so that you'd have that. So it will be in today.

21 We have the Prcac affidavits and a very large binder from the

22 Radic team was presented which we have not gone through. I don't know

23 whether it contains the affidavits or not. So that's -- if they're in

24 there, we can certainly assess as quickly as possible on those.

25 What I might suggest, if the Chamber is so inclined, I agree with

1 counsel that to go for two people is completely not feasible. However, if

2 there is a larger number of videolink witnesses with another accused's set

3 of witnesses, we would not oppose -- I don't think it would have any

4 negative impact because you've heard the testimony any way. I think it

5 would be no problem to tack on those as well. We want to do it quickly

6 and not -- and with the most economical approach. So we will certainly

7 have maximum give on any of those issues.

8 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I make a brief

9 comment?

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, do, Mr. Simic.

11 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I am afraid that the approach of my

12 learned friends from the Prosecution derogates the very meaning of

13 affidavits. An affidavit is not an ordinary statement. It is a statement

14 which can be interpreted and judged only in the context of the witness'

15 testimony which it is corroborating. And that is why I did not give my

16 affidavits to Ms. Somers. Only two affidavits linked to these two

17 testimonies. Tomorrow I will file a submission with the other

18 affidavits. And if the Prosecution feels that it is necessary to

19 cross-examine even before hearing the witness' testimony, then the very

20 meaning of the Rule, whose intention is to expedite proceedings, will be

21 lost because these affidavits corroborate witness' testimony.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Mr. Simic. We

23 would like to ask the Prosecutor, when they tell us that they want to

24 cross-examine, to give us the reasons. Of course, there's no need to tell

25 you that because you know that that comes within the discretionary powers

1 of the Chamber which it may use. So if you tell us you wish to

2 cross-examine "because," then we are in a position to decide. And that is

3 the approach we will take. So we will see whether the Chamber will

4 authorise cross-examination, and we will see -- we will make a decision if

5 we consider the reasons given are valid.

6 Ms. Somers.

7 MS. SOMERS: Of course, Your Honour. We have put in -- we've

8 tried to keep it a very short response, and it gives the ground. We

9 realise we are in the Chamber's hands with this, but our objections, more

10 often than not, go to the fact that it would be an inappropriate witness

11 because the matter would go to a core issue. And we are trying to find

12 those where it would not be in issue. So far, they have not come across

13 our desk. But, of course, we realise that.

14 We do have only the 65 ter summary to go on. So looking at that,

15 which is not terribly meaty, we look at the affidavit which may be, before

16 the witness testifies, heartier than what we know about the witness, and

17 we try to make our judgements at that time. As I indicated, the witnesses

18 have just finished, and we try to get these responses in before the seven

19 days have elapsed. We think it's important that you have it.

20 So based on what limited knowledge I am given about the summary,

21 and then looking at the more weighty matter that's provided, not weighty

22 in the sense of value but volume, I am trying to make a judgement on

23 rather limited facts. But we will nonetheless do it. We do want to see

24 it move.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You asked, Ms. Somers, whether

1 we were having hearings next week. The answer is no. I remain optimistic

2 in hoping that you will have enough time to do your work so that we will

3 be able to move forward a little more quickly, and I thank Mr. Simic for

4 having conducted things as he has done and to make even greater

5 improvements the next time, if possible.

6 So I wish you success in your work. Until -- I don't have the

7 calendar. You know the date when we will be resuming the hearings.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.00 p.m.,

9 to be reconvened on Monday, the 5^th day of February,

10 2001, at 9.20 a.m.

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