Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7683

1 Thursday, 8 February 2001

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.25 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning. Please be

6 seated.

7 Good morning to everybody in the courtroom and everybody in the

8 booths; good morning to the Prosecution and Defence counsels. Let us take

9 up our proceedings.

10 But before we have the witness called in, I should like to inform

11 you, and I think Mr. Krstan Simic has already been informed of the fact

12 that there has been a ruling, a decision, that is, the Victims and

13 Witnesses Unit. Have you been informed of that, Mr. Simic?

14 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Yes.

15 I have received the protection of witnesses decision.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. The decision was

17 dated the 25th of January, but you have the floor anyway now. Please

18 proceed.

19 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The

20 Defence calls witness Dragan Popovic to the stand.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Dragan

23 Popovic. Can you hear me?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Yes, I

25 can.

Page 7684

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You are now going to read the

2 solemn declaration handed to you by the usher. Please go ahead.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please draw closer to the

9 microphone. Let me start off by thanking you for coming to the Tribunal.

10 You're going to be answering questions put to you by Mr. Krstan Simic, who

11 you know already. He is the gentleman standing to your left, of course.

12 Mr. Simic, your witness.

13 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Examined by Mr. K. Simic:

15 Q. Good morning to you too, Mr. Popovic.

16 A. Good morning.

17 Q. For the record, could you state your full name and surname,

18 please?

19 A. My name is Dragan Popovic.

20 Q. Could you give us your exact date of birth.

21 A. The 25th of October, 1964, in Gradina, Prijedor municipality.

22 Q. Is that your place of residence today?

23 A. Yes. I live in Gradina.

24 Q. What is your educational background?

25 A. I completed primary school, not secondary school, but I attended

Page 7685

1 two courses, one for postmen organised by the post office, and one for the

2 railways.

3 Q. Are you married?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you have any children?

6 A. Yes. I have a daughter.

7 Q. Did you do your military service?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When?

10 A. I did my military service from the 1st of November, 1984 until the

11 25th of December, 1985.

12 Q. Mr. Popovic, where were you employed up until the war broke out?

13 A. I worked in Croatia, in Zagreb, to be exact, where I actually

14 lived.

15 Q. Did your family live with you?

16 A. Yes, my father, my sister, my wife, and my child. We all lived

17 there.

18 Q. Prior to the war conflict, did you leave Zagreb?

19 A. Yes. I had to leave.

20 Q. Did you leave with your family or alone?

21 A. No. I had to leave alone first, and my family came seven months

22 later. I had no news of my family during those seven months.

23 Q. Thank you. In the course of 1992, according to the present system

24 that prevailed, were you mobilised, called up?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7686

1 Q. Where was your war assignment? That is to say, what were your

2 duties within this mobilisation, call-up?

3 A. Well, I was first in the 43rd Motorised Brigade of Prijedor, and

4 then I was on the battle front at Lipik, at the front at Lipik, but for a

5 short period of time, just one month. After that, I reported back to

6 Prijedor, to the military department there, and they gave me another

7 assignment, which was the department of the Omarska Police Station, the

8 Omarska Police Department.

9 Q. In the Omarska Police Department, did you have the status of

10 reserve policeman?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. Mr. Popovic, as a reserve police officer, did you have the task,

13 with other policemen, of providing security for the Omarska camp?

14 A. We were told it was an investigation centre of Omarska, and that

15 was where I was.

16 Q. Who gave you that assignment?

17 A. The head of the police department in Omarska, Zeljko Meakic.

18 Q. Could you tell us the period of time you spent on that assignment,

19 given to you by Mr. Meakic?

20 A. I can't quite remember but I think it was from the 29th of May up

21 until the beginning of August.

22 Q. Was that 1992?

23 A. Yes, 1992.

24 Q. Let me ask you this: How did you -- how were you on duty? How

25 was duty work organised?

Page 7687

1 A. We had three shifts, so I worked for 12 hours and then I was off

2 for 24 hours.

3 Q. Thank you. During the time the camp was in existence, did you

4 have any leave?

5 A. Yes, twice. I had leave from the camp twice.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Just slow down, please, and make pauses.

7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. When were you absent for the first time?

9 A. The first time I was absent was after an incident that occurred to

10 me personally down there.

11 Q. How long were you absent?

12 A. I was absent for about nine or ten days, the first time, the first

13 time I was absent, it was of a nine to ten day duration.

14 Q. What month was that?

15 A. It was in June.

16 Q. Can you tell us roughly when your absence began and how long it

17 lasted?

18 A. I couldn't tell you exactly, but it was from the 10th of

19 December -- the 10th or the 12th of June until the 19th or 20th of June.

20 Q. You said that you were absent on another occasion, absent from the

21 camp. When was that?

22 A. That was when my family arrived from Zagreb, and that was from

23 about the 7th of July up until the 20th of July.

24 Q. Where was your family accommodated when they came back from

25 Zagreb?

Page 7688

1 A. With my in-laws in Prnjavor.

2 Q. How far is Prnjavor from Omarska and Prijedor?

3 A. It was about 80 kilometres away from Omarska.

4 Q. Who gave you permission to absent yourself in July, 1992?

5 A. I first contacted Zeljko Meakic the chief of the Omarska Police

6 Department, and he probably asked for authorisation from Prijedor because

7 it wasn't in his -- part of his competence to be able to give -- to allow

8 me leave.

9 Q. Why were you granted permission to absent yourself in July, 1992?

10 A. I was permitted to do so because I hadn't seen my wife and child

11 for seven months.

12 Q. Where were they during those seven months?

13 A. They were in Zagreb.

14 Q. During that time, were you able to talk to your wife and child at

15 any point?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you receive any information as to how they were, whether they

18 were alive and well, whether they had anything to eat, whether they were

19 safe?

20 A. No, I had no information about them whatsoever.

21 Q. Bearing in mind the two periods that you were absent in July 1992,

22 how many shifts did you spend in the Omarska camp?

23 A. I did about 15 shifts, I think.

24 Q. You've already said that when you were absent the first time, and

25 your absence lasted about nine days, that was in June, you said that it

Page 7689

1 had to do with an incident that you personally took part in; is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. What happened? Why were you absent? What did you do for those

5 nine days?

6 A. I was being investigated.

7 Q. Who conducted the investigation?

8 A. The inspectors from Prijedor. I didn't know them. They conducted

9 the investigation.

10 Q. What was the investigation about?

11 A. An incident occurred. As I said, I took part in it personally. I

12 came on duty to do my shift at around 1900 hours, and at about 2200 hours,

13 a man who was prisoner there, actually one of the detainees, one of the

14 prisoners -- what did you say?

15 Q. We'll come to that in a moment. Let's just take it step-by-step.

16 That particular evening when the incident occurred, where were you doing

17 guard duty?

18 A. I was on duty beside the administration building towards the

19 "white house," that side. In front of the restaurant, actually.

20 Q. Thank you. That's what I wanted to hear, the exact location.

21 Now, that particular post, was there anybody else of the reserve

22 police force on duty there?

23 A. Yes, Dudo Jokic.

24 Q. What was his status?

25 A. He was also a reserve police officer.

Page 7690

1 Q. Where was he standing on duty on that occasion?

2 A. That night, he left the guard post. He went home when we

3 transferred shifts.

4 Q. Did he ask anybody whether he could go home?

5 A. No. The chief of the Omarska Police Station wasn't there, and

6 whenever he wasn't there, then people did what they liked and would go

7 home when they liked.

8 Q. I should like now to go back to the incident itself, and could you

9 try and be as precise as possible and concise as possible in giving your

10 answer. Could you try and describe to us what happened on that particular

11 occasion.

12 A. As a guard, I was alone. It was night-time, and suddenly I saw

13 some commotion going on in the restaurant. I went up to the window

14 because there were some open windows to let the air in. So I went up to

15 the window, and I saw a man get up and shout, "People, we have to escape

16 from here. We're human beings. This is not the proper place for us," he

17 said. And the people showed him that I was standing there, that I was a

18 guard and I was standing there. And then he said, "Well, why are you

19 afraid of the guards?" Then he cursed me and my mother and my child, and

20 he said, "I'll slit the guard's throat and then the road is open to the

21 rest of you."

22 I cautioned him. I cautioned that gentleman. I don't know his

23 name. I said, "Sir, remain calm. Don't try and do anything." But he

24 moved towards me. There was a chair in between us. He took up the chair

25 and wanted to throw it out of the window towards me. I was afraid. I was

Page 7691

1 alone. There was nobody else around. And I tried to warn him again, and

2 I got hold of my rifle, and I wanted to shoot up in the air to caution him

3 to stop. However, the bullet hit the man. I don't quite know how

4 myself. After that, I heard that two other people were wounded.

5 I'm very sorry that that happened.

6 Q. Please try and collect yourself. Take a rest, and we'll

7 continue.

8 Were you actually targeting the man?

9 A. No. I had no intention of shooting at him. I wanted to shoot up

10 in the air, but as I shot from my hip, the bullets went up into the

11 ceiling and probably ricocheted downwards.

12 Q. How do you know that the bullets hit the ceiling?

13 A. The next day, when I was in Prijedor --

14 Q. I'm asking you whether anybody told you that.

15 A. The inspectors in Prijedor told me that during the investigation

16 that they conducted.

17 Q. At the moment you fired, were you in front of the restaurant

18 building, alone?

19 A. Yes, I was.

20 Q. After the shooting and that accident, did other guards come up?

21 A. Yes. Several guards ran up to see what was going on, and Zeljko

22 Meakic, the commander of the police station, was there too, and he called

23 an ambulance to have the injured transported. After that, he put me into

24 a car and took me off to Omarska.

25 Q. When the chief of the police department arrived, Mr. Meakic, with

Page 7692

1 the other guards, amongst those guards was there an active policeman by

2 the name of Miroslav Kvocka?

3 A. No. No. Miroslav Kvocka was not on duty that night.

4 Q. You said a moment ago that after having been -- after the injured

5 were transported by the ambulance as organised by Mr. Meakic, that you

6 went to Omarska with Mr. Meakic. Could you tell us where?

7 A. We went to a cafe. We had a cup of coffee so that I could calm

8 down. That's what he said, that I should calm down and report to the

9 police station in Prijedor the next morning at 9.00, which is precisely

10 what I did.

11 Q. What happened the following day at the police station where you

12 reported, as you said a moment ago?

13 A. They conducted an investigation. They questioned me, asked me how

14 it happened. I said I was very frightened and that I couldn't -- and I'm

15 still afraid today. I'm extremely sorry that it came to that, that it

16 took place at all. And I told them that they should go and ask the

17 detainees and conduct their investigations there and to ask the people who

18 were injured how it all happened.

19 Q. Were you questioned a number of times, interrogated a number of

20 times during that investigation period?

21 A. Yes. I was questioned on several occasions over a period of two

22 days.

23 Q. Do you remember the investigators? Did you know their names?

24 A. No, I did not.

25 Q. Were they people who had come to the Omarska camp, who were

Page 7693

1 investigators in the Omarska camp?

2 A. [No audible response]

3 Q. We did not -- the transcript has not recorded your final answer.

4 The people who interrogated you in Prijedor, were they the same

5 investigators who worked in Omarska camp?

6 A. I didn't know those investigators. I didn't know them.

7 Q. Did you see them in Omarska? Were they investigators in Omarska?

8 A. Yes, I did see some of them but not all of them. Some of them

9 were but not all of them.

10 Q. I don't think you understand me. Listen to my question again.

11 The people who interrogated you in Prijedor, did you see them performing

12 the interrogations at Omarska camp?

13 A. Yes. I saw some of those people in the camp.

14 Q. What did they -- what did the investigators tell you finally?

15 A. At the end, the investigators said that they had conducted the

16 investigation, that they had gone on the spot to Omarska, to investigate

17 the matter, that they talked to one of the detainees - I think his name

18 was Dedo Crnalic - they talked to him and he confirmed my story, and that

19 one of the injured people also confirmed my story. They told the

20 inspectors the same thing that I had told them.

21 Q. After that, did you return to do your -- to do your security

22 detail work in Omarska?

23 A. Yes, but I had ten days off. And after that, they asked me to

24 return to my guard post in Omarska, to do my guard duty there.

25 Q. Let me go back to the beginning for a moment. When Mr. Meakic

Page 7694

1 gave you your assignment, together with the other police officers, to

2 provide security, did he tell you how long this would last?

3 A. Yes. They told us that this assignment would last for about ten

4 days.

5 Q. You said a moment ago but let me ask you: Did you know a

6 policeman Miroslav Kvocka?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was he on duty at Omarska?

9 A. He was. He did the same duties that I did. He had the same

10 duties.

11 Q. How often did you see him?

12 A. Not very often, because I was absent while Miroslav Kvocka was

13 there.

14 Q. Did Mr. Kvocka appear at the beginning to provide security for the

15 camp?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Bearing in mind your own absence, can you tell us roughly -- or,

18 rather, did Mr. Kvocka stay until the camp existed?

19 A. No. Miroslav Kvocka left after my return -- two or three days

20 after my return from my absence.

21 Q. And you didn't see him again in the camp?

22 A. After -- when I returned, I saw him perhaps two or three times

23 again but not after that.

24 Q. In addition to yourself, was there any other security in the camp?

25 A. Yes. The army provided security for the camp as well, but

Page 7695

1 outside.

2 Q. What about inside the compound?

3 A. Yes. There was a special police unit from Banja Luka.

4 Q. Do you know who their commander was?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Was it Mr. Zeljko Meakic?

7 A. No. They had their own commander.

8 Q. How long did they stay on in the camp?

9 A. They were there for about a fortnight and they worked in two

10 shifts. They had two commanders in fact. Each shift had its leader, two

11 leaders.

12 Q. Did you have any other superior officer apart from Mr. Meakic,

13 whom you said was the chief of the police department?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Mr. Popovic, do you have a nickname?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What is your nickname?

18 A. My nickname is Pavlic.

19 Q. Do people know you by your nickname?

20 A. Yes. Everybody in Omarska and the surrounding parts call me by my

21 nickname.

22 Q. And my last question: Did you personally, during those 15 shifts

23 that you did in Omarska, take part in any other incident that took place?

24 A. No, but I did hear about another incident taking place.

25 Q. Mr. Popovic, we have discussed these events two or three times. I

Page 7696

1 should like -- you asked you said you would like to give us your motives

2 for appearing before the Tribunal?

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, when you say, "We

4 have already discussed these events," what do you mean by "we"? Who is

5 "we"?

6 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Popovic and myself.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Thank you.

8 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. What was your motive? When everybody who is not in contact with

10 Omarska, people don't like to come to the Tribunal, why have you come

11 here?

12 A. I have come to the Tribunal because I don't feel guilty. I am

13 extremely sorry that the incident took place, and I wanted to tell the

14 truth about the incident which had happened and to tell the truth about

15 everything that took place.

16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Popovic. I have no further questions for you.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Are there any other Defence

18 counsel who would like to intervene? Mr. Nikolic?

19 Yes, Mr. Nikolic. You may proceed.

20 MR. NIKOLIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Nikolic:

22 Q. Mr. Popovic, good morning.

23 A. Good morning.

24 Q. My name is Zarko Nikolic, and I represent the accused Milojica Kos

25 in this case. I should like to ask several questions of you.

Page 7697

1 A. Please do, Mr. Nikolic.

2 Q. Would you please tell us if you know the person by the name of

3 Milojica Kos?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. Did you know Milojica Kos from before the war?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. Do you know where Milojica Kos is from?

8 A. I think he's from the village of Donja Lamovita. I mean, I know

9 he's from that village, which is located some 3 or 4 kilometres from

10 Omarska in the direction of the village of Kevljani.

11 Q. Do you know what is Milojica Kos' occupation?

12 A. Yes, I do. He's a waiter.

13 Q. I will use the term that you yourself used in this context, and I

14 should like to ask you whether in the investigation centre in Omarska you

15 worked together with Milojica Kos.

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. Do you know what Milojica Kos did in the investigation centre?

18 A. He was also a reserve police officer, as myself, in the

19 investigation centre.

20 Q. Do you know what his function was there?

21 A. He didn't have any functions whatsoever. He was a simple guard

22 like myself.

23 Q. In your knowledge, was Milojica Kos authorised to issue orders?

24 A. He was not able to issue any orders to anyone.

25 Q. According to your knowledge, did Milojica Kos have any subordinate

Page 7698

1 individuals in the investigation centre?

2 A. No, absolutely not.

3 Q. Did you and Milojica Kos work in the same shift?

4 A. Yes, we did.

5 Q. And my last question. I just want to be sure I understand you

6 correctly. You said that the only superior individual to you was the

7 commander of the police station in Omarska, Zeljko Meakic; is that

8 correct?

9 A. Yes, it is.

10 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Popovic.

11 MR. NIKOLIC: I have no further questions to ask of this witness.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

13 Mr. Nikolic.

14 Any other Defence counsel who would wish to intervene? No.

15 Thank you very much once again, Mr. Nikolic.

16 I believe that Mr. Waidyaratne will conduct the cross-examination

17 of this witness.

18 Mr. Popovic, you will now be answering questions that the counsel

19 for the Prosecution, Mr. Waidyaratne, is going to ask of you.

20 A. I understand.

21 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 A. Thank you.

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:

24 Q. Good morning, Mr. Popovic.

25 A. Good morning.

Page 7699

1 Q. Mr. Popovic, could you tell us how you came to the camp when you

2 reported to work?

3 A. I was assigned to the camp by the commander of the police station

4 in Omarska. He was the one who took me there, and he told me that it was

5 an investigation centre.

6 Q. Then after that, how did you come? Were you taken in a bus to the

7 camp or did you come on your own?

8 A. We went there in a van.

9 Q. So the reserve policemen who had to report for a certain shift was

10 transported in a kombi or a van?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And the person whom you referred to as Mr. Meakic, the Commander

13 of the Omarska Police Station, he came separately. He had a car. Did you

14 see that car?

15 A. No, I didn't see that, but I said that he was the Commander of the

16 Omarska Police Station -- of the police department and not of the police

17 station.

18 Q. Did you see him come to the camp in a car?

19 A. Yes, sometimes he would come in a car.

20 Q. Did you see Mr. Kvocka coming in a car, a green Mercedes?

21 A. No. He had a car of his own, a privately-owned car.

22 Q. He came to the camp in his own car?

23 A. I saw him coming in his own car on two occasions. At least I

24 thought it was his car, but I don't know.

25 Q. Now, very quickly I will ask you some basic questions. When you

Page 7700

1 were working in the camp, you said that you had to work 12 hours and you

2 were off 24 hours. Am I correct?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. Now, when you reported for these shifts, how many people were

5 there with you in one shift?

6 A. Twenty people, approximately.

7 Q. And you were all given specific assignments. If I may give an

8 example, you were given a certain place to guard or stand and guard. Am I

9 correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Who gave those instructions?

12 A. The Commander of the police station department in Omarska, Zeljko

13 Meakic.

14 Q. When Mr. Meakic was not there, who gave you those orders or places

15 to stand or what to do?

16 A. We already -- we were already assigned our guard posts by the

17 Commander, Zeljko.

18 Q. Say, for instance, one day somebody was absent and you had to

19 cover up that area too, who gave you that order?

20 A. Nobody gave me orders. I would only take over my duty.

21 Q. That is correct, but --

22 A. And I would take the duty of the person who was absent.

23 Q. On your own? Nobody asked you to do that or stand in place of the

24 other person?

25 A. Yes. That's how it went. Everybody proceeded in the usual way.

Page 7701

1 Q. Now, when you reported to work, did you all have a roll-call?

2 A. No. We only had one roll-call. That was the first time when we

3 arrived, when we were given our assignments, so that we already knew where

4 to go when we came to report for duty. We knew exactly which guard posts

5 we were assigned.

6 Q. Now, the time that you spent in the camp, you said 15 shifts. Did

7 you have to do --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. -- only the guard duty or were you given any other assignments?

10 A. Only the guard duty. When I was on those 15 shifts, that was the

11 only duty I had.

12 Q. So, Mr. Popovic, can you tell the Chamber as to where you stood

13 guard?

14 A. I stood guard in front of the restaurant, in the administration

15 building, on the other side of the "white house." I mean the place that

16 they refer to as the "white house".

17 Q. Is it closer to the "white house" or away from the "white house"?

18 A. It really depended on the agreement between me and my colleague

19 Dudo Jokic. Sometimes he would be closer to the place and I would be down

20 there. It really depended on how we would agree.

21 Q. Generally if Jokic was there, where would you stand? For example,

22 if Jokic was there, where would you stay?

23 A. Jokic would be at one corner and I would be at the other corner or

24 the other way round.

25 Q. So you changed places.

Page 7702

1 A. Yes. That was our mutual agreement between the two of us.

2 Q. Now, what -- what was the weapon that was given to you?

3 A. I was given an automatic rifle.

4 Q. And how many rounds or ammunition was given to you?

5 A. I had one clip containing 30 bullets.

6 Q. How were you dressed? Were you in uniform?

7 A. Yes, a blue uniform, the one that was usually worn by reserve

8 police officers.

9 Q. Other than Mr. Meakic whom you mentioned, who were the others in

10 your shift?

11 A. Mr. Kos was with me, Mr. Milenko Jasnic, then Rajko Marmat. I

12 can't remember all of them, because I had lived in Zagreb for 12 years and

13 I didn't know people in the area very well.

14 Q. The person whom you mention as Rajko, is it Rajko Marmat, who was

15 the reserve policeman?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, you told that you were given instructions as to where you

18 should stand and what you should guard. Did anyone give you instructions

19 as to what you should do and what you should guard? What were you there

20 to guard?

21 A. We provided security, both to the detainees -- well, mostly to the

22 detainees. We were their security personnel.

23 Q. Now, did the person who provided -- were you instructed as to what

24 you should do if one of these detainees misbehaved or misconducted

25 themselves?

Page 7703

1 A. We didn't have any instructions. I mean, Meakic told us to call

2 someone who was -- if anything happens, who was in the vicinity and to

3 report to him, and if he was not there, to try and calm down the

4 situation, if there is any tension or something going on, as I tried to do

5 in that incident that I described. But that man came up to me, and I

6 was -- I panicked. I was alone, it was night, and there were no other

7 guards in my vicinity.

8 Q. I'm sorry, I have not come -- I am not asking you about the

9 incident. I'm just asking you in general. We will talk about the

10 incident after. Now, Mr. Popovic, when Mr. Meakic was not there, whom

11 would you look for to take instructions or to discuss something? Who was

12 the next senior person in the camp?

13 A. Nobody was the next senior person in the camp. We always tried to

14 call him. We had his telephone number where he could be reached, and he

15 would come and deal with the situation.

16 Q. If you know, did the detainees have any rules or regulation that

17 they should adhere to during the time that they spent in the camp, as to

18 how they should go to a place or how they should sit?

19 A. That happened only when they went to lunch. They would be lined

20 up and they would go to lunch in columns, but otherwise, nobody prohibited

21 them anything. Nobody told them where to sit and where not to sit.

22 Q. Who gave them the instructions when they went for lunch?

23 A. One of the guards, one of us, who was in charge of that particular

24 place.

25 Q. Did the guards also give instructions to the prisoners and the

Page 7704

1 detainees as to what time they should take to eat?

2 A. No. They went for lunch at the usual time and they were free to

3 eat until they finished their meal. Actually, I don't know. I didn't

4 work there where they ate their meals. I mean, inside that particular

5 room, the restaurant.

6 Q. Now, Mr. Popovic, you said that you were called or nicknamed

7 Pavlic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What is the meaning of Pavlic? Tell us.

10 A. This nickname means a lot to me. I was nicknamed after my

11 grandfather, whose name was Pavla and my younger brother is also called

12 Pavla and that's why they called me Pavlic in my village. I got that

13 nickname when I was very young, maybe seven years old.

14 Q. Now, you spoke about an incident concerning a shooting. Could you

15 tell us, tell the Chamber, as to how many people were there in the

16 restaurant - I'm talking about the detainees - approximately?

17 A. Maybe about a hundred, maybe more.

18 Q. And they were all seated when you saw this?

19 A. No, no. Some of them were standing.

20 Q. You said --

21 A. At that moment, at the moment the incident happened, but the time

22 that gentleman whom I killed unfortunately, when he asked them to run

23 away, but at that moment they stood up. I didn't know what their

24 intentions were.

25 Q. Mr. Popovic, you were outside the restaurant building, am I

Page 7705

1 correct?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. And the person whom you say that you accidentally shot and killed

4 was inside the building; am I correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you subsequently find out as to the name of this person, the

7 person, the deceased?

8 A. I learned that through the media. I learned about it in the

9 papers.

10 Q. Did you know whether he was a young person or an old person, an

11 elderly person?

12 A. No. I still don't know that. I think he was middle aged,

13 according to what I could tell at that moment. He could have been between

14 45, 50 years of age, according to my estimate.

15 Q. Now, you're a person who had served in the front and had training

16 with regard to using of weapons; am I correct?

17 A. No. I never underwent any training except for the training that I

18 had as part of my regular military service.

19 Q. But you knew how to handle a weapon? That's why it was given to

20 you; am I correct?

21 A. Yes. This is what I learned in the regular army.

22 Q. Could you recollect as to when, which month, this incident

23 happened?

24 A. It happened in June, between the 10th and the 12th of June,

25 according to what I can remember. It was a long time ago. It's difficult

Page 7706

1 to remember the dates.

2 Q. Now, you said that there were many others who were injured due to

3 this shooting. Did you -- and you said that you knew those people?

4 A. No. I'm sorry, I didn't understand your question. Would you

5 please repeat the question?

6 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic?

8 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Popovic didn't say at any

9 moment that he knew the people who were injured, and he didn't say that

10 many people were injured.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Objection rejected. Would you

12 pursue with your questions?


14 Q. Mr. Popovic, did you get to know as to how many people were

15 injured due to that shooting, this accidental shooting that you spoke

16 about?

17 A. Yes. That is what I heard from the inspectors in Prijedor.

18 Q. How many?

19 A. That is, that there were two men, two.

20 Q. Do you know where they were injured, as to what injuries, where he

21 had sustained the injuries?

22 A. No, I don't know that. I didn't see that, because I left with Mr.

23 Meakic but I heard that one of them -- that the bullet had grazed one of

24 them on the shoulder.

25 Q. Did you learn the names of those people?

Page 7707

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you make an attempt to find out those names?

3 A. I did try to find out but nobody knew, nobody told me. I tried to

4 learn it from the inspector and the commander of the police station

5 department in Omarska. Mr. Meakic, he told me that he would ask the

6 investigators but nobody told me any name, though I would like to know

7 their names so that I can publicly apologise to them.

8 Q. You couldn't find still -- up to date, you have not been able to

9 find the names of those people; is that your position?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, you said that you were questioned by the interrogators on

12 several occasions?

13 A. Yes, on several occasions during two days.

14 Q. And the people, the interrogators, that you don't know their

15 names?

16 A. No, I don't know them.

17 Q. Did you get any report after this as a result of this

18 investigation that you underwent?

19 A. Only an oral report.

20 Q. Did you sign any statement?

21 A. I signed my statement, the one that I gave them, to the

22 investigators, that is.

23 Q. And the result of this investigation was that you were never

24 punished or reprimanded or warned?

25 A. I didn't receive anything after that, but I did expect to be

Page 7708

1 punished because that is what I deserved.

2 Q. After ten days, according to what you say, you returned to the

3 same place to do the same duty. Am I correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, Mr. Popovic, you were there during the time that you spent in

6 the camp. Did you, by any chance, or take any interest, come to know why

7 these people, the Muslim -- the detainees were brought to the camp?

8 A. I only heard stories from the Commander of the police station

9 department in Omarska. We were told that they were supposed to give some

10 statements to the investigators.

11 Q. With regard to what, why were the detainees there, did you know

12 why the detainees were there or was it common knowledge?

13 A. I didn't know. I didn't know why they were there.

14 Q. Did you discuss this?

15 A. I know that the same evening when they were brought in, we were

16 not working yet. There were some police officers from Prijedor there. I

17 know there was a rebellion in my village the same evening. People wanted

18 to know why those people were being brought to the mine complex, and a

19 decision was made. It was actually requested that the people be

20 released. That was the kind of request that we sent to the municipality,

21 municipal authorities.

22 Q. Mr. Popovic, as a reserve policeman, did you sign a loyalty oath

23 at the Omarska Police Station?

24 A. I'm sorry, I don't understand your question. Could you please

25 repeat it?

Page 7709

1 Q. Mr. Popovic, did you sign a loyalty oath as a reserve policeman?

2 A. Yes. I signed a loyalty oath to the fact that I would be

3 discharging my duties honourably.

4 Q. When was that?

5 A. That was before, around the 30th of April, because prior to those

6 events, I had already joined the reserve police force, and I stood guard

7 in my village as a member of the local patrol.

8 Q. Before I conclude -- please bear with me. Two questions. When

9 did you return from Zagreb to Omarska?

10 A. I arrived in Omarska on the 20th of October, 1991.

11 Q. Then you served at the front in Lipik. That's what you said? Am

12 I correct?

13 A. Yes. I received call-up papers to that effect from the Ministry

14 of Defence Department in Prijedor.

15 Q. And when were you brought to the camp for the first time?

16 A. To the camp? I was brought to the camp on the 29th of May, 1992.

17 Q. And the last question. When were you mobilised in the Omarska

18 Police Station?

19 A. I said that already. Sometime around the 30th of April, 1992. I

20 was mobilised to the police station in Omarska one month before that, and

21 I was patrolling in my village during that period of time, the village of

22 Gradina.

23 Q. Mr. Popovic, about the shooting incident, and you spoke about a

24 person by the name of Kos who was in your shift, was he present at the

25 present time when this shooting took place?

Page 7710

1 A. See, at that moment, I didn't recognise anyone. I was really

2 beside myself. It's something that doesn't happen every day. It was a

3 shock for me. I was completely lost at the moment, and I didn't see Mr.

4 Kos anywhere around at that moment.

5 Q. You mentioned the name of Dedo Crnalic.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you know that he was related to Miroslav Kvocka?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you know as to whether Dedo Crnalic is alive now or as to what

10 happened to him?

11 A. No, but I wish he were alive. But I don't know what happened with

12 him.

13 MR. WAIDYARATNE: That concludes my cross-examination. Thank

14 you.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

16 Mr. Waidyaratne.

17 Mr. Simic, have you any re-examination?

18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I just have one question, Your

19 Honour.

20 Re-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

21 Q. Mr. Popovic, would you please try and concentrate on the beginning

22 of that unfortunate shooting, not the period that followed.

23 Anyone in the area of the restaurant, were they present when the

24 shooting started?

25 A. No. At that moment, there was no one there.

Page 7711

1 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no additional

2 questions.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Nikolic. No additional

4 questions? Thank you.

5 Judge Fouad Riad, please.

6 Questioned by the Court:

7 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Mr. Popovic.

8 A. Good morning, Your Honour. Yes.

9 JUDGE RIAD: I have a few inquiries or clarifications to ask you,

10 and I will try to start from the end, where you were talking to the

11 Prosecutor.

12 You just mentioned that there was a rebellion in your village the

13 same evening the detainees were brought to the camp. Was this a Muslim

14 village?

15 A. No.

16 JUDGE RIAD: No. Then what was the rebellion for?

17 A. It was a Serb village.

18 JUDGE RIAD: And the Serbs were having a rebellion?

19 A. No. The people raised a hue and cry about the detention of

20 people. They didn't understand what it was all about, why it was

21 happening.

22 JUDGE RIAD: Who was crying? You mean the Serbs were crying

23 because the Muslims were detained?

24 A. No. They were indignant why people were being arrested. They

25 weren't crying.

Page 7712

1 JUDGE RIAD: Yes. You say any word would serve. Does that mean

2 that the detainees were residents of this village?

3 A. No, those prisoners were not residents of that village. They came

4 from other villages.

5 JUDGE RIAD: So the rebellion was for detainees coming from other

6 villages?

7 A. Correct.

8 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you also mentioned that you did not -- that

9 Mr. Zeljko Meakic was the commander of the police, and when the Prosecutor

10 asked you who gave the orders in his absence, you said that everybody knew

11 his work. Does that mean that when Meakic was not there, there was no

12 commander, there was nobody in charge?

13 A. There was no commander because he was the only one who could issue

14 orders to us.

15 JUDGE RIAD: It was an institution, and when the commander was

16 absent, nobody was commanding?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE RIAD: And were you a shift leader or just a member, one of

19 the people of a shift, one member of a shift?

20 A. I was just a reserve policeman in the Omarska department of the

21 police station.

22 JUDGE RIAD: Because I understood that you said that Mr. Kvocka

23 was on the same grade as you. Did I understand rightly or was he superior

24 to you?

25 A. No. He had the same position, the only difference being that he

Page 7713

1 was an active-duty policeman and I was a reserve policeman, but we had the

2 same kind of duties.

3 JUDGE RIAD: You mean he would not be above you or above any other

4 guard, would not be giving orders to the guards?

5 A. He couldn't issue orders because then each one of us could have

6 issued orders to other people. You had to know who was the one issuing

7 orders, and it was Mr. Meakic.

8 JUDGE RIAD: And apart from Meakic, nobody else would give orders;

9 the chiefs, the heads of shift, for instance, would give orders?

10 A. I'm not aware of any shift leaders. We were all members of a

11 shift. We were all on shift duty.

12 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you mentioned that you did not work where the

13 prisoners took their meals. I just noted that in your answer to the

14 Prosecutor, but I understood before that, when the incident happened, when

15 the shooting happened, it was in the restaurant. Wasn't it?

16 A. Yes, but I was on the outside of the restaurant, not inside where

17 the food was being distributed.

18 JUDGE RIAD: [Previous translation continues] ... the restaurant?

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE RIAD: Speaking of this incident, you said the prisoner was

21 killed by a shot in the ceiling. Was that the result of an inquiry, that

22 the shot in the ceiling would kill a man?

23 A. That is what I was told by the inspectors in Prijedor.

24 JUDGE RIAD: Were there other incidents like that during your stay

25 there which happened?

Page 7714

1 A. I never saw any other such incident, but I did hear about another

2 one, and this was a rumour, talk, among the guards about it.

3 JUDGE RIAD: [Previous translation continues] ... punishment to

4 the other one, too?

5 A. I don't know about the other guards involved in that other

6 incident but I did expect punishment. However, as I said, they questioned

7 Mr. Crnalic and one of the wounded men. That is what they told me. They

8 confirmed my story, that I got scared, that he was heading towards me.

9 And I'm really very sorry. I probably would never do anything like that

10 again, but when one is afraid, one loses control.

11 JUDGE RIAD: And your coming here was mainly to express this

12 honourable feeling of being sorry, or to say anything else for Mr. Kvocka?

13 A. I have come to describe my own personal incident in the first

14 place because I couldn't stand it any longer. I wanted to tell this

15 honourable court the truth. As for Mr. Kvocka, there is not much I can

16 say about him because I had little contact with him. As much as I know

17 and as much as I was able to see him, and that was about five times, I'm

18 able to tell you about him.

19 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, very much.

20 A. Thank you, too, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge

22 Fouad Riad. Madam Judge Wald?

23 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Popovic, you told us, I believe, that this

24 incident took place around 2200 hours. At least, you said it was at night

25 several times. I would take that to be about 10.00 at night. And you

Page 7715

1 said that there were 100, you estimated about a hundred people in the

2 restaurant. Now, was that usual, in your experience as a guard, for there

3 to be a hundred people, detainees, in the restaurant at 10.00 at night?

4 Were they eating their meal or what at 10.00 at night?

5 A. No, they slept there at night.

6 JUDGE WALD: Okay. These were people who were put up in the

7 restaurant at night from -- okay. You also said that you shot into the

8 air in order to scare -- or you thought you were shooting into the air in

9 order to scare the person who was threatening to throw the chair through

10 the window. You said you were on one side, you were outside the building,

11 there was a window, and the detainees were inside. Now, the window was

12 open?

13 A. The window that the man wanted to throw a chair through was not

14 open but there were other open windows of the restaurant.

15 JUDGE WALD: So when you shot your gun up into the air, did you --

16 you had to shoot through a window in order for it to get inside. So did

17 you aim the gun through the window?

18 A. I said that I fired from the hip through the glass.

19 JUDGE WALD: Okay. I didn't hear you say that, but I'm glad to be

20 informed about that now. So you fired the bullet through the window in

21 order to scare, in order to try to scare. Did you use more than one

22 bullet or was it only one shot that you fired?

23 A. I fired a short burst of fire and the inspectors later told me --

24 because Zeljko seized the gun away from me and handed it over to the

25 inspectors. They told me that in the clip, three rounds were missing.

Page 7716

1 JUDGE WALD: Okay. So three bullets. All right. Now, I want to

2 make sure I understand your testimony about how the guards worked in

3 Omarska. Were there -- there were shifts, right? I mean, there was --

4 there were shifts, people came at one time and they left at another time?

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE WALD: I understand your testimony to say there were no

7 shift commanders that you knew about. Is that right? Even though we have

8 had many, many witnesses come and tell us about there being shifts and

9 there being a commander for each shift, but you say that was not true when

10 you worked there; is that right? There were no shift commanders?

11 A. I didn't have a shift commander. My only commander was Zeljko

12 Meakic.

13 JUDGE WALD: Okay. On the night of the incident, when you said

14 Meakic came and he took the gun away from you and an ambulance was called

15 to take the wounded people away, did you stay there until the ambulance

16 had already come and taken the wounded away? Were you still there when

17 they were removed?

18 A. No. Zeljko had driven me away prior to that.

19 JUDGE WALD: That's my question. So you were telling us that

20 after these persons had been, one killed, wounded, and an ambulance had

21 been called, that Meakic took you in his car away back to Omarska, leaving

22 nobody in charge on the camp. I mean, the detainees were still inside the

23 restaurant, presumably, the wounded were still outside, and nobody was in

24 charge. Everybody would just do what they thought was the right thing to

25 do while he took you home or while he took you back to Omarska in the

Page 7717

1 car.

2 A. You see, I was quite beside myself. I can't remember exactly what

3 happened.


5 A. Just then I wished I was dead.

6 JUDGE WALD: I understand. But to the best of your memory, given

7 the trauma of the circumstances, you don't remember that Meakic left

8 anybody in charge of that scene with the wounded still waiting to be

9 picked up and the detainees who had been -- in your view, being asked to

10 revolt still being in the restaurant? You don't remember his leaving

11 anybody in charge; is that right?

12 A. I don't remember, but probably he did. He could have chosen any

13 reserve policeman or an active duty policeman if he happened to be there.

14 JUDGE WALD: But you don't remember which one?

15 A. That is right.

16 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Now, you talked about your being told that the

17 investigators spoke to two detainees, I mean one wounded and [redacted].

18 Did you hear whether or not they spoke to other people besides those two

19 detainees, and to you, of course? I mean, did you hear whether they spoke

20 to other guards, to other detainees, to Mr. Meakic, anyone else?

21 A. Mr. Meakic was with me while I was being investigated in Prijedor.

22 JUDGE WALD: So you don't know whether they spoke -- they asked

23 him what he had seen and what he knew about the incident separately?

24 A. They probably did, but I didn't see them do it.

25 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Now, my last question to you is: Several

Page 7718

1 times, once from your own counsel and I think once in answer to one of

2 Judge Riad's questions, you referred to hearing about another incident but

3 in neither case, did you tell us what that incident was. Could you tell

4 us briefly what this other incident you heard about was?

5 A. Nobody asked me about that other incident, when I mentioned it

6 here in court. You're the first one to do that.

7 JUDGE WALD: No, I know you're right. You're absolutely right. I

8 understand that. That's why -- but I am asking you because, since it was

9 -- obviously it stayed in your memory. I would like to know what it

10 was.

11 A. You see, on that day, I was on duty in the hangar. I was assigned

12 by Zeljko to keep watch duty in the hangar and, suddenly, shooting was

13 heard. It was almost dark. And I heard a moan. There were three of us

14 guards up there in the hangar. And then one of us, I think his name was

15 Cica, Mico or something like that, he went off to see what was happening.

16 When he came back, he said that a drunken man had come, that buses had

17 arrived, bringing Muslims from somewhere, and that that man had started

18 shooting at the buses, and that he heard that Mr. Kvocka had, on that

19 occasion, grabbed the gun away from this drunken man, that he had run out

20 and grabbed it from him. I wasn't there. I wasn't an eye witness, but I

21 heard this story, that Mr. Kvocka had acted very bravely.

22 JUDGE WALD: Okay. All right. Thank you.

23 A. Thank you, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Wald.

25 Mr. Popovic, I have a few questions too for you. My first is, if

Page 7719

1 I understood you well, during that month you knew nothing about your wife

2 and child. You never heard them, their voices even. Is that true?

3 A. Yes, that is true. I said no in the sense that I never heard

4 anything about them, any news of them, because telephone lines were down

5 then.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] When were the lines

7 reconnected?

8 A. I can't remember, but I saw my family for the first time after

9 that when they arrived from Zagreb.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you saw your family around

11 the 7th of July; is that right?

12 A. Yes, around that date. Whether it was the 7th or the 8th, I'm not

13 sure. I asked to go away to Prnjavor on the 7th and I went there on the

14 8th, so that must be it.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] When you came from Zagreb on the

16 20th of October, 1991, did you tell your family where you were going?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What did you tell them?

19 A. You see, Your Honours, there were threats by phone, words to the

20 effect, "Why aren't you getting out, you Chetnik? You have no place

21 here. This is a Croatian state." And as there was no way to reach Bosna,

22 I fled to my uncle's place in Slovenia. I spent 15 days there. When I

23 heard that the roads were open --

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry to interrupt you. You

25 told your family that you were going to Slovenia?

Page 7720

1 A. Yes. They knew I was going to Slovenia, but then I returned to

2 Zagreb again.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] After Slovenia you went to

4 Serbia; is that right?

5 A. No. I went to Bosnia. From Slovenia I returned to Zagreb and

6 from Zagreb I went to Bosnia.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And your family as was aware of

8 your movements?

9 A. My family could not know anything about me in detail, just as I

10 didn't know anything about them, but they knew that I was leaving because

11 I had been threatened. I had no choice.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] How did you learn that your

13 family had arrived?

14 A. By my wife's mother. She let me know that they had arrived,

15 because her mother, my mother-in-law, was living in Prnjavor, and they

16 went there.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You have already told us that

18 there were other incidents when people were killed. Do you know how many

19 such incidents?

20 A. I know about the one I was involved in and this other one that

21 I've just told you about, but I also know that when we first arrived, the

22 first time I took up my duty, I saw four bodies, three or four. I think

23 there were four corpses.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Was it a frequent occurrence in

25 the camp for you to see bodies?

Page 7721

1 A. No. That was the only time I saw any bodies.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Only that one time?

3 A. Yes, only then.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Where were those bodies?

5 A. Near the "white house." Between the "white house" and my guard

6 post, roughly. So near the restaurant or between the restaurant and the

7 "white house."

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So all in all, for the 15 shifts

9 more or less that you had, there were two incidents with firearms and

10 shooting; is that right?

11 A. Yes. That is my incident and the incident with this drunkard who

12 opened fire on the bus.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you know who informed you

14 about the results of the inquiry into your case?

15 A. I'm sorry. Could you repeat your question?

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. You told us that

17 investigators spoke to you about the results of the inquiry into your

18 incident with the shooting. Did I understand you right?

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Who conveyed to you those

21 results, the results of the inquiry?

22 A. The inspector in Prijedor.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did this inspector work in

24 Omarska as well?

25 A. Yes, that inspector did work in Omarska.

Page 7722

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Where did he give you this

2 information?

3 A. He gave it to me in Prijedor, in the police station there.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see. In Prijedor, not in

5 Omarska?

6 A. No, not in Omarska, in Prijedor, because I went there on two

7 consecutive days, and the second day he told me that.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] That day -- do you remember what

9 day that was? What was the date?

10 A. No. No.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So the day or the moment when

12 he informed you, had you already resumed your duties when you were

13 informed about these results, those ten days later that you went back?

14 A. I was informed two days after the incident. So I went to be

15 interrogated on several occasions over two days, and then on the second

16 day they told me I could go home, that I would be under investigation, and

17 that they would let me know whether I could go back to work or go to

18 detention, and then I was informed that I could go back to work.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So one day you went to Prijedor

20 for the interrogation, and the second day they told you of the results of

21 the inquiry; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So they told you to wait at

24 home, and they would call you to go back to work.

25 A. Yes, or they would decide -- they said that they would investigate

Page 7723

1 all the circumstances and make a ruling.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. I see you went back

3 to work on the 19th or the 20th; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Who told you that you could go

6 back to work?

7 A. I was informed by Zeljko Meakic, the Commander of the police

8 station department, because he had probably been informed about it by the

9 investigators.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just then, did you get a gun or

11 not?

12 A. Yes. I was again issued a gun, but I was cautioned in future to

13 take much greater care and think twice before deciding to use my weapon.

14 Zeljko especially warned me of this.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Was this warning given to you

16 the first time, when you were issued a weapon for the first time?

17 A. Nobody gave me any such warning on that occasion.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Was the weapon the same, by any

19 chance, or not?

20 A. Yes. I received the same weapon with the same number on it.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I have another question. The

22 reserve policeman were transported in a van. All the policemen?

23 THE INTERPRETER: The witness didn't get an interpretation.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can you hear me now?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7724

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] My question is: You said that

2 the reserve policemen were transported in a van. Is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] All the policemen or not all of

5 them?

6 A. Both the reserve and the active-duty policemen were transported in

7 a van to the Omarska Investigation Centre.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Zeljko Meakic, did he travel in

9 that van?

10 A. No, not then. He came in his own car, a green Mercedes. His own

11 car, I think.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What about Mr. Kvocka? Was he

13 transported in that van?

14 A. Yes. That evening, he was in the van, though later he came in his

15 own private car on occasion. Not always, but sometimes.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] From time to time. I see. Do

17 you remember what kind of car he had, that he used, what kind of car it

18 was, his private car?

19 A. I don't remember. I don't have a driving licence. I never drove

20 a car, so I don't know much about cars, I'm afraid. But I know that he

21 would come mostly using a private car when he was bringing parcels for the

22 prisoners.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You said that there were at

24 least 20 guards in the Omarska camp. Is that number correct?

25 A. Yes. About 20 in a shift.

Page 7725

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see. You had a gun. Did you

2 have a mobile phone or a Motorola or something for communication

3 purposes?

4 A. I did not, but I heard that in the administration building there

5 was a telephone and a radio receiver, but I didn't see that because I had

6 nothing to do there. Actually, I did see it once when I went to ask

7 Zeljko for permission to leave because my family had arrived, and it was

8 then that I did see a telephone and two women typing something on a

9 typewriter.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: So spontaneously you said, "I did not have any

11 such devices." Did other guards have a Motorola or any other means of

12 communication?

13 A. I didn't see any guard on active duty or a reserve policeman

14 having any such device.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Dragan Popovic, you have

16 pledged to tell us the truth and the whole truth. I want to ask you

17 something. If there is a problem in the camp and Zeljko Meakic is not

18 present, you have a problem, Zeljko Meakic is not there, how could you

19 communicate with him?

20 A. I would go up there where the telephone was and try to call him.

21 There was a number there, the number of the police station department,

22 because the camp was quite a distance away from the police station, and I

23 would call up the policeman on duty to inform Zeljko, for him to take

24 action.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So each of the 20 guards, if

Page 7726

1 there was a problem, as there was no commander in the camp, he would have

2 to go to this telephone to communicate with Zeljko Meakic. Is that what

3 you're telling us?

4 A. Yes. Anyone could reach that telephone and call up Zeljko should

5 a problem arise.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So there was no single person

7 who coordinated the work of the 20 guards who were scattered all over the

8 camp, is that so?

9 A. While I was there, there was no such person. I don't know whether

10 there was later.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So each of the guards out of the

12 20 was his own commander. Is that your conclusion?

13 A. No, he wasn't his own commander. We were just ordinary guards.

14 But you see that we did communicate with Zeljko. He was our only

15 commander. We had no one else to address.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm not doubting what you are

17 telling us. You are telling us that Zeljko Meakic was the commander. But

18 when Zeljko Meakic was not there, there was no commander. Is that what

19 you're telling us?

20 A. Zeljko wasn't absent all that often from the camp. He was there

21 very often. At night, you see --

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me for interrupting you,

23 Mr. Popovic. Did Zeljko Meakic live and reside in the camp? Was he in

24 the camp 24 hours, round the clock?

25 A. He wasn't always there for 24 hours, but he did have a room with a

Page 7727

1 bed in it. That is what they told me. I didn't see it. But I would see

2 him often during the day and the night.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] How many prisoners were there in

4 the camp? Do you have any idea?

5 A. Maybe about 2.000, maybe about 2.500 in total, as far as I know.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So for those 2.000 prisoners,

7 there were 20 guards, and these 20 guards, in the absence of Zeljko

8 Meakic, had no individual who would replace him, not even a guard? There

9 wasn't a single guard who could stand in for Zeljko Meakic when he was

10 absent?

11 A. I am really not aware of that. I was never designated to be that

12 person.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] If I understood you correctly,

14 you said that the prisoners could take as much time as they needed to eat,

15 but you were not there. So I am a bit confused. Could you explain that?

16 A. I said that that was my opinion. I didn't say that I saw it.

17 That was what I thought, but I didn't actually watch because I was

18 outside.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So the prisoners could take

20 their time to eat. But why did you come to that conclusion if you were

21 not there?

22 A. I didn't say that they could. They had a plate just as I had my

23 plate, and we ate the same food. Everything was the same.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm not talking about the plate

25 of food. I'm talking about the time given to the prisoners. Could they

Page 7728

1 sit at a table and eat the portion of food they were given that was equal

2 to yours and take as much time as they needed to do that?

3 A. As I wasn't inside, I can't say if a guard would hurry them up or

4 something as there were a lot of them and they all had to take their

5 turn. I wasn't in there to see whether perhaps a guard hurried them up or

6 something.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. But you were on the

8 outside, and being on the outside, did you see -- did you check the time

9 that passed between the entry of a group of prisoners into the restaurant

10 and the time when that same group of prisoners came out? Did you see

11 that?

12 A. This took a little longer than five minutes. When one group

13 entered, picked up their food, sit down and eat, they had about five to

14 ten minutes, in my judgement, as far as I was able to see.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So between the entry and exit --

16 THE INTERPRETER: The witness says he's not getting the

17 translation.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. But I can hear you. Please

19 go on. Go on. Continue with your answer. Will you answer my question,

20 please?

21 A. I'm telling you that it took about five minutes, sometimes seven,

22 sometimes four, three. I didn't really check my watch to see.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you had a 12-hour shift and

24 then you were off for 24 hours. Do you know the guards who were with you

25 during that time?

Page 7729

1 A. I said that I know a guard who was with me. There was Milenko

2 Jasnic, Milojica Kos, Rajko Marmat.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm not asking you the names.

4 Do you know them?

5 A. I know them all by sight, but I don't know all their names and

6 surnames.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let me ask you something else.

8 Were those guards always the same in your shift, during the time when you

9 were on duty, or did they change?

10 A. Yes. Usually we were the same group of guards in one shift.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. So, Mr. Popovic, I

12 got carried away a bit with the time. It's time for the break. But I

13 also think that's the end of your testimony.

14 No, I'm sorry. Judge Fouad Riad would like to make a correction.

15 JUDGE RIAD: Yes. This is a correction of the transcript. There

16 was a mistake. I think it was serious enough for me to interfere now. I

17 don't remember the line or the page but the context was, when I asked the

18 question concerning the other incident, which the witness spoke of, he

19 said he only heard rumours about it. And then I asked him if there was --

20 exactly my question was, "Well, there was no punishment too for this

21 incident?" And the transcript was different. The transcript, "There was

22 punishment too." The word "no", I think, makes the whole difference. I

23 said, "There was no punishment too for this incident."

24 Now, just as -- following the questions of the President, I want

25 to ask two questions to Mr. Popovic.

Page 7730

1 Mr. Popovic, you said that you were outside the restaurant. How

2 did you see the detainees coming in? In what way? What was -- what would

3 be the way of their coming in? Peacefully? Quarrelling? Pushed?

4 A. As far as I was able to see, they entered quietly, in lines, to

5 have their meal.

6 JUDGE RIAD: And the line was disciplined, regular? No problems?

7 A. No problems at all, but there would be a guard who was probably

8 giving them instructions how to go in. I wasn't there but there would be

9 a guard to keep them in order and tell them how to go in.

10 JUDGE RIAD: And they stayed in order? They kept the order, and

11 the discipline? Or were they agitated?

12 A. Well, you see, I'm sure there must have been some who may have

13 been agitated but I cannot tell what they felt inside.

14 JUDGE RIAD: And the guards were giving them orders, or more than

15 orders?

16 A. The guard would say, "Now, it's this line's turn then the

17 following line's turn," the guard who was there. That's all. Because he

18 had no right to give any kind of orders. They had grown accustomed to the

19 way in which they lined up for their meal and followed one another inside.

20 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you mentioned also --

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Judge Riad. I think

22 we have to make a break. Then please proceed.

23 JUDGE RIAD: Was there always a deputy commander or no? One

24 commander in the police department usually?

25 A. I don't know that. It wasn't a police station. It was a

Page 7731

1 department of the police station. The police station was in Prijedor. At

2 least, that is as far as I knew about it.

3 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you.

4 A. Thank you, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So Mr. Popovic, you have just

6 completed your testimony. We wish to thank you very much for coming here,

7 and we appreciate your courage in coming here. We wish you a safe journey

8 home, and I will ask the usher to accompany you out.

9 A. Thank you very much, Your Honours, for showing understanding for

10 my need to come here. And I'm at your disposal for anything that you may

11 need in the future from me.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are now going to have a

14 half-hour break. And I apologise to the personnel for going on a little

15 longer, but I think everybody understands it's to avoid bringing the

16 witness back. So we are now having a half-hour break.

17 --- Recess taken at 11.20 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 11.57 a.m.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

20 Mr. Simic.

21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence calls

22 Witness DA/2.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We seem to be stepping outside

24 the order here.

25 Have you received my translation, the translation of what I said?

Page 7732

1 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, now I have, Judge.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

3 Mr. Usher, would you please have the witness shown in. It is

4 Witness DA/2.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good day to you, Witness DA/2.

7 Could you stand up, please. Can you hear me? Would you stand, please.

8 Thank you.

9 You're now going to read the solemn declaration handed to you by

10 the usher. Please read it out.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

12 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please take a seat. Thank you.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps you could draw closer to

17 the microphone and sit comfortably. You can be at ease. Mr. Simic will

18 be putting questions to you first. Later on, some people will be asking

19 you questions.

20 But, Mr. Simic, let's start off with you. Your witness.

21 I beg your pardon. Would the usher show the witness the piece of

22 paper, please.

23 Witness DA/2, for the protective measures that you have asked, the

24 usher is going to show you a piece of paper which should have your name on

25 it. Please tell us by a yes or a no whether it is or is not your name.

Page 7733

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is my name.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

3 Mr. Krstan Simic. I think we can have the blinds raised at this

4 point, before you proceed.

5 Madam Registrar.

6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think we can begin, Mr. Simic,

8 unless this movement upsets you.

9 Examined by Mr. K. Simic:

10 Q. Good morning to you.

11 A. Good morning.

12 Q. Witness DA/2, this is a court. You have no reason to fear

13 anything. You can feel free to answer the questions. I see that you're a

14 little tense and nervous. Try not to be. There's no need.

15 I should like to ask you to make pauses between my question and

16 your answer to facilitate the interpretation. Are you ready?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may we move into

19 private session for the particulars of Witness DA/2 for a few moments,

20 please?

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us move into private

22 session for a few moments to hear questions related to the identity of the

23 witness.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 7734

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Not yet, please.

20 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Witness DA/2, where did you live before the war broke out in

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23 A. Prijedor.

24 Q. Did your family live in Prijedor as well?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7735

1 Q. Without giving us their names, what members of your family lived

2 in Prijedor?

3 A. My brother, his wife as well.

4 Q. Did your brother have any children?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How many?

7 A. He had two sons.

8 Q. How old were they?

9 A. 18 and 20, thereabouts. One went to school, one had graduated

10 from school.

11 Q. Witness DA/2, after the events that took place in 1992 in

12 Prijedor, did you leave Prijedor?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you go to a third country?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you live in that same third country now?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did your daughter go with you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. After you left for this third country, did any of your family

21 members remain in Prijedor?

22 A. Yes. As I said, my brother and his family, they stayed on.

23 Q. When you arrived in this third country, were you able to contact

24 your family members?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7736

1 Q. Do you know where, in Prijedor, the members of your family, that

2 is to say your brother's family, were located, put up?

3 A. Yes. They were at Miroslav Kvocka's place.

4 Q. In your contacts with them, did you learn whether all the family

5 members of your brother were at Miroslav Kvocka's house?

6 A. Yes. My brother and his sons.

7 Q. If I understood you correctly, your brother and his son, your

8 nephew, were in Mr. Kvocka's house?

9 A. Yes, that is right. My sister-in-law and the other son were there

10 too, but they left Mr. Kvocka's house, whereas my brother and one son

11 stayed on. So Mr. Kvocka provided for them during all that time.

12 Q. Was it your brother's older or younger son?

13 A. It was my brother's older son.

14 Q. Did you help provide for your brother and his son who were staying

15 in Mr. Kvocka's house?

16 A. Yes, as far as I was able to. I was not able to send them a great

17 deal but I tried to help them as best I could. It was difficult to live

18 at that time and have the means of a livelihood, and everything I sent

19 them, they did receive.

20 Q. Thank you. Witness DA/2, did you contact your brother and his son

21 during that period of time?

22 A. Yes, I did. I was able to contact them. They were down there

23 with him and I contacted them, and he enabled me to maintain contacts.

24 They gave me his number and I was able to maintain contact with them.

25 There was no problem there.

Page 7737

1 Q. Witness DA/2, after relations had become more stable in

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, did you see your brother and his family?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When did you see them for the first time?

5 A. It was two years ago, about that. It was two years ago.

6 Actually, that was the second time I saw them. I apologise.

7 Q. But I'm asking you about the first time.

8 A. The first time I saw them, I can't quite remember. I don't

9 remember the year, but ...

10 Q. Was it before or after Dayton?

11 A. It was after Dayton, when the situation calmed down.

12 Q. Witness DA/2, did your brother and his son eventually leave

13 Prijedor?

14 A. Yes. He helped them. He helped them go over to the territory of

15 the federation.

16 Q. Are they in Bosnia-Herzegovina today, living there?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Are they living on the territory belonging to the federation of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

20 A. Yes, that is right.

21 Q. Witness DA/2, how much time -- during the contacts you had with

22 them, how long did your brother and his son spend in Miroslav Kvocka's

23 house?

24 A. The son lived there for a year, about a year, maybe more, and my

25 brother spent six months living there, roughly.

Page 7738













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English

14 and French transcripts.












Page 7739

1 Q. Witness DA/2, what year was that?

2 A. It was 1993 and 1994.

3 Q. Witness DA/2, did you, when talking to your brother or talking to

4 them later on, did you learn whom your son's -- your brother's son slept

5 with? Your nephew, who did he sleep with?

6 A. Yes, I did learn about that. He slept with Miroslav Kvocka's

7 son. They slept together.

8 Q. Did they sleep in the same room?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And that was 1993/1994, was it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did Miroslav Kvocka's family help them out with food? Did they

13 provide food for them?

14 A. Yes, practically all their food. I said that I sent as much as I

15 could, but what I sent wasn't enough to keep them. But they got

16 everything, whether it was a dinar or two dinars. All the money I sent,

17 they received.

18 Q. Witness DA/2, as you know, we're in a court of law at the

19 International Tribunal.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you ever in your life see Mr. Miroslav Kvocka?

22 A. No. We just talked over the telephone. Our contacts were via the

23 telephone.

24 Q. When did you have these contacts over the telephone?

25 A. That was when I went to the third country and when I was given

Page 7740

1 their telephone number. Then I was able to talk to them over the phone

2 all the time. I was in contact with them all the time.

3 Q. Witness DA/2, do you know whether your brother and his family,

4 after -- whether he visited -- after he was arrested, whether he visited

5 his wife and children?

6 A. Could you repeat the question, please?

7 Q. After your brother was arrested, did he visit the house and wife

8 of Mr. Kvocka?

9 A. Yes. Yes.

10 Q. Does your brother still maintain contact with them? Is he still

11 in contact with them?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. After the arrest, did you call Mr. Kvocka's wife up?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. On that occasion, did you ask for the number of the Detention Unit

16 so that you could hear his voice, talk to him?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did your brother and his son tell you what the Kvocka family --

19 how they behaved towards them in Prijedor in 1993?

20 A. Yes. They were good to them, and they shared the good times and

21 the bad times. They shared everything. That's how people lived. That's

22 how they lived.

23 Q. Did you have any information as to whether this particular family

24 helped other Muslims?

25 A. Yes. Yes.

Page 7741

1 Q. Witness DA/2, did you talk to your brother after Mr. Kvocka's

2 arrest and ask what was to be done?

3 A. I don't understand the question.

4 Q. Did your brother ask you to testify before this Tribunal and to

5 tell the terrible truth of the war and all of us who experienced that know

6 about it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Why did he, when his son -- why does he not come before this

9 Tribunal? His son does not come before this Tribunal.

10 A. Well, it's a difficult situation. They haven't got the means to

11 pay for it. They can't come here.

12 Q. Are they afraid of the Tribunal?

13 A. Yes, they are. They're not afraid of the truth, but the situation

14 is difficult. But they told me to tell the truth.

15 Q. Did they consider that it was their duty to do so because of this

16 family who had taken them in?

17 A. Yes. And I only tell the truth. I don't know -- I can't say

18 anything else. I just am able to say what I learnt about the situation in

19 talking, in my telephone conversation was them.

20 Q. Witness DA/2, what nationality are you?

21 A. I'm a Muslim.

22 Q. Witness DA/2, I have no further questions.

23 A. Thank you.

24 Q. I really do thank you for the courage you have shown and the

25 humane qualities you have demonstrated in coming here.

Page 7742

1 A. Thank you, too. I should like to thank you all, you and all the

2 rest here in the courtroom. I thank you all very much.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Simic. Any more

4 questions from the rest of the Defence counsel? I see negative signs.

5 No, there are not.

6 Madam Susan Somers has the floor. Your witness.

7 Cross-examined by Ms. Somers:

8 Q. Witness DA/2, would you tell us, please, the street address at

9 which your brother and his son were residing with Mr. Kvocka?

10 A. No. I don't know the name of the street, but I know that it was

11 at Pecani, the Pecani district. I know the house, I know where it is, but

12 I don't know the address, unfortunately. I know where they were, I know

13 where the house is, but I never looked for the address. I think that part

14 is called Pecani. That area is called Pecani, I think. It's the old

15 town, Stari Grad.

16 Q. Can you tell us, please, if you know who, if anyone, was residing

17 at Mr. Kvocka's other address, which he has told this court was on a

18 Milosa Obilica something - I'm afraid I don't know the whole name of it -

19 number 46. Who was residing at that particular residence of

20 Mr. Kvocka's?

21 A. I don't know the names and the surnames. I know that when I rang,

22 I would say who was calling, and one of the women who answered said she

23 was Elvira that her name was Elvira, and so I assumed she was a Muslim.

24 There were others who lifted up the phone when I rang who were there.

25 They gave me their names, but it was all a long time ago. I don't know

Page 7743

1 what their names were, but there were a lot of Muslims there. That I do

2 know.

3 Q. Were you aware that Mr. Kvocka also controlled the apartment of

4 his two brothers-in-law? Do you know that fact?

5 A. I don't understand your question. Could you ask me again?

6 Q. I'm terribly sorry if it wasn't clear. Were you aware that there

7 was yet another apartment over which Mr. Kvocka had control and this

8 apartment belonged to his two Muslim brothers-in-law? Did you know that?

9 A. I know that he had brothers-in-law, and I know that they were

10 there and that all of them were provided for and they were safe there. He

11 protected them. That's the only thing I know about that, that many of

12 them went down there.

13 Q. At what point in time -- if you can be very, very specific.

14 Exactly from what month and what year to what month and what year did your

15 brother and his son reside in Mr. Kvocka's apartment?

16 A. They were there in 1993 and 1994. When I went to the third

17 country, I contacted them all the time. His telephone number. Whether

18 they came before or after, I didn't ask my brother. I think that that was

19 the date.

20 Q. Did you know whether or not the brothers-in-law of Mr. Kvocka

21 remained in Prijedor? Are they still there, do you know?

22 A. No, no.

23 Q. Do you know whether or not the apartment --

24 A. I apologise. I know that one of the brothers-in-law down there.

25 I know that.

Page 7744

1 Q. But you do not know about the other two's whereabouts, is that

2 correct?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Do you know whether or not the apartment in Pacini was a socially

5 owned apartment?

6 A. You mean where my brother lived?

7 Q. Correct.

8 A. It was his own privately owned flat, his house, in fact.

9 Q. And how do you know that?

10 A. I know that because I had the number of the house, the telephone

11 number of that house, and I know that. I visited it too when I went the

12 first time. It was a house.

13 Q. Perhaps the question was less than clear and let me try to ask you

14 again. Was the apartment in Pecani one that would have been, under the

15 system of government that might have existed in 1992, what was called

16 socially owned, or could he have bought it with his own money and had his

17 own ownership? Would you know that?

18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic?

20 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Witness DA/2 said that she never

21 saw Kvocka, never had any contact with him until she rang up, and now we

22 are going into property ownership relations, it seems.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, objection

24 overruled. Please proceed.


Page 7745

1 Q. Do you still remember the question? Is it clear to you, whether

2 it was his own personal apartment bought by his own cash or was it what

3 was called - and I'm sure you're familiar with it because you came from

4 the same system - socially owned? Do you know? Can you tell us?

5 A. No.

6 Q. No, you don't know?

7 A. No.

8 Q. No, you don't know? Is that correct? You do not know? Can you

9 tell us, "Yes, I know" or, "No, I do not know"?

10 A. No, I do not know.

11 Q. Thank you for being specific.

12 A. I didn't know him. I don't know him at all.

13 Q. Do you know a woman by the name of Mira -- I'm sorry, let me get

14 her name -- Skara?

15 A. No.

16 Q. You've never heard of Mira Skaric?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you know, or did Mrs. Kvocka tell you that she had told your

19 story to Mira Skaric, "story" meaning the story of your family's

20 situation? Did she tell you that she was telling people about the fact

21 that she was putting up people in her home? Yes?

22 A. That she was helping --

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, the witness

24 said that she had never heard of the woman.

25 MS. SOMERS: I'm sorry, I was trying to elicit whether or not that

Page 7746

1 she had simply talked about the situation of putting up Muslims, and it is

2 a third party to whom she would have related it. That was the point of

3 the question. If that was not clear, I apologise. It could have been any

4 person. And I've been corrected. It's Skaric. I apologise if I'm

5 mispronouncing it.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Go ahead then.

7 MS. SOMERS: Thank you. That was the point of it, Your Honour. I

8 hope it was clear.

9 Q. Were you aware that Mr. Kvocka was receiving humanitarian aid

10 while people were staying in the apartments?

11 A. No, no. I wasn't interested in that. All I was interested in was

12 the fact that they didn't complain, that they shared everything, and that

13 they were surviving. I wasn't interested in anything else. People were

14 trying to survive as best as they could, and they would share the last

15 piece of bread they had.

16 Q. Are you aware that there is a story in circulation about your

17 family's -- your brothers not coming to the Tribunal, and it is a bit

18 different from the reason that you gave? Are you aware of that?

19 A. They cannot come. How can they come? They don't dare come. They

20 told me to tell the truth, and the truth is that they didn't complain,

21 that they were well there, and that he was helping them out, and that I

22 should come and say that.

23 Q. So it would not be true, then, the story that is before the

24 Tribunal, that your brother did not dare testify because it would provoke

25 a certain degree of animosity and create certain problems for him and his

Page 7747

1 family? That is not the case?

2 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic?

4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] The witness has already said three

5 times that her brother and his son do not dare to come because of fear,

6 and my learned colleague is now quoting the answer that has been given by

7 the witness three times.

8 MS. SOMERS: But Your Honour, may I respond? I believe that the

9 excuse was financial, if I'm not wrong, coming to this Tribunal, and just

10 to put -- so that the court is aware from where the information comes --

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We need to know -- I'm sorry.

12 You should ask the witness whether she knows the reasons why and then --

13 Ms. Somers, the witness has already said that. You should rephrase your

14 question or move on with a different question.

15 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] If I may make a suggestion to my

16 learned colleague, she keeps saying "brothers" so there can be a confusion

17 in the transcript. We are talking about one brother and his son. That is

18 the brother and the nephew of witness DA/2.

19 MS. SOMERS: I appreciate the guidance. I would like to ask the

20 witness --

21 Q. Witness DA/2, did your brother ever tell you that he would not

22 dare come to this Tribunal personally because doing so, given that he

23 lives in the federation, might provoke a certain degree of animosity and

24 create certain problems for him? Did he ever tell you that?

25 A. Yes, yes.

Page 7748

1 Q. Is it your position that Miroslav Kvocka was held in high esteem

2 by the Muslim population of Prijedor?

3 A. I think he was, yes. I didn't have a contact, much contact, with

4 other Muslims, but I did have contact with my brother and his son, and

5 they are grateful to him.

6 Q. (redacted)?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you tell us, please -- perhaps you can help me understand,

9 why, then, would that pool or number of Muslims be upset by your brother

10 coming and testifying on behalf of someone who was a champion of the

11 Muslim people? It was both a Muslim and a Serb town. I don't know. I

12 wasn't interested in such things?

13 JUDGE RIAD: But his residence was not in Stari Grad usually, the

14 brother. Where did he live before that?

15 A. No. Before that, he lived six kilometres away from Prijedor,

16 outside the town. He didn't live there.

17 JUDGE RIAD: And he had to leave his house to go and live with Mr.

18 Kvocka? Was he kicked out of his house?

19 A. I don't know that. I really cannot tell you about whether he was

20 kicked out of his house or not. He didn't say anything about that. It

21 was out of his concerns for his safety that he went to his house. But I

22 don't know how it all went, how they met and how he ended up there. I

23 told you I got the phone number of the place. He told me that they were

24 staying at his place, and that is how I contacted them.

25 JUDGE RIAD: And where did your sister-in-law go, the wife of your

Page 7749

1 brother? Did she go somewhere else or she stayed in her house?

2 A. She was there for a while and then she left with the other son,

3 the younger one.

4 JUDGE RIAD: Now, from your conversation with your brother, did

5 you understand that Mr. Kvocka was protecting him against anything?

6 A. Yes. He was there for sure. He was protecting them, yes.

7 JUDGE RIAD: And he was not feeling safe without -- I mean, he

8 wasn't there because he was not feeling safe?

9 A. Where?

10 JUDGE RIAD: He went to Mr. Kvocka because he was not feeling safe

11 in his house?

12 A. I don't know that. Sure, he didn't, yes.

13 JUDGE RIAD: And he didn't tell you why he wouldn't go to the

14 Muslim part?

15 A. No.

16 JUDGE RIAD: No. Thank you very much.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness DA/2, do you happen to

18 know the colour of my robe?

19 A. I don't even see you. I cannot even see you. Whether it's black,

20 I don't know.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you know who is talking to

22 you right now?

23 A. No.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] How come you don't know who is

25 talking to you right now?

Page 7750

1 So now you know?

2 A. Yes, yes. Now I know.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Now you know the colour of my

4 robe?

5 A. Yes. It's red and -- yes.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Witness DA/2. You

7 have come to the end of your testimony here. Thank you very much for

8 coming to the Tribunal, and we wish you a safe journey back to your place

9 of residence.

10 Could the usher please accompany the witness out of the

11 courtroom?

12 A. Thank you very much, Your Honours, for providing me with the

13 opportunity to tell you what I know and what is true.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We shall now have a break, a

17 50-minute break. Yesterday I made a mistake and we ended up with an

18 hour-and-ten-minute break. Today we will only have a 50-minute break at

19 this point.

20 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.55 p.m.

21 A. He doesn't dare come because -- he simply doesn't dare and that's

22 why he told me to come here.

23 Q. Where is your --

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers, I apologise for

25 interrupting you.

Page 7751

1 A. Not only Muslims who were there, who were living there, but others

2 as well.

3 [Trial Chamber and usher confer]

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please continue, Ms. Somers. I

5 apologise for this interruption.


7 Q. Did you at one time own an apartment in Prijedor or did your

8 family own an apartment in Prijedor? Or I'm sorry, if not owned, occupy,

9 legally occupy.

10 A. Me personally or ...

11 Q. You or your brother or perhaps your parents.

12 A. I lived in Prijedor. I had my house there and so did my brother.

13 My brother had a house of his own.

14 Q. And what happened to your house during the war, after the war?

15 A. Nothing.

16 Q. When did you -- I'm sorry.

17 A. A man is living there now in my house, a refugee.

18 Q. And who is living there? Is it a person of Muslim ethnicity or

19 Serb?

20 A. A Serb is living now in my house, a person from the Serb side, and

21 he's also a refugee.

22 Q. Witness DA/2, when did you leave your house?

23 A. In 1992, late 1992.

24 Q. Which month, if you can help us remember?

25 A. I left Prijedor for Zenica and this is where I gave birth to my

Page 7752

1 child. I gave birth on the 28th of August. I stayed there for a month

2 and then I went to Zagreb where I stayed at the UNHCR centre in Karlovac,

3 and from there I left for the third country in 1993.

4 Q. When you left your home, did you hope to come back to it or intend

5 to come back to it?

6 A. Yes. Yes. I intended to come back, but I didn't. I stayed to

7 live in the third country.

8 Q. And so when you left your house, you didn't really abandon it, did

9 you?

10 A. When I left, I left. I left my house.

11 Q. Did you leave your things in your house, your belongings?

12 A. Yes, I did. I did.

13 Q. What particular incident made you leave your home?

14 A. The situation was difficult. There was a war going on. I was

15 pregnant. I didn't think that there would be enough medication, and I had

16 been hoping to have a child for a number of years before that, and that is

17 why I left. I intended to go to Zagreb directly because that is where I

18 underwent treatment, but I didn't reach Zagreb right away. I stayed in

19 Zenica, and I gave birth in Zenica. After awhile, I left for Zagreb.

20 Q. Witness DA/2, do you know how soon after you left your house the

21 Serb refugee or any other person occupied the house?

22 A. I don't know when he came to my house. No, I don't know that.

23 Whether it was right away or sometime later, I don't know.

24 Q. Witness DA/2, when did you first learn that a Serb person was

25 occupying your house?

Page 7753

1 A. I learned that in the third country, when I came there in 1993.

2 Q. Were either you or your brother in a detention camp anywhere in

3 the territory of Bosnia?

4 A. No. No.

5 Q. Did you try or have you made inquiry about getting your property

6 back, your apartment back and the things in your apartment?

7 A. Yes. My former husband did that. He was the one that took care

8 of that. He's still trying to get it. There are no problems with the man

9 who is living there now. I even had contact with him, and there seems to

10 be no problem as far as he's concern. At least that's what he told me.

11 But I don't know what's going to happen. I am now living in this third

12 country. But I did have contact with the man who is now living in my

13 house, and he told me that there would be no problems.

14 Q. So the only problem is he's still there; is that correct?

15 A. I don't think that there is a problem, but I don't know. I really

16 cannot tell you. I didn't try to do anything in that sense.

17 Q. Can you tell us please, there is a document --

18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

19 MS. SOMERS: I'm sorry.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.

21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] In the record, we read that there

22 are problems, but the witness said that there were no problems

23 whatsoever. Page 67, line 9. Since I'm on my feet, I should like to

24 remind you that my learned colleague is using twice as much time as I

25 did.

Page 7754

1 MS. SOMERS: I shall wind down if the Court will permit me to

2 finish with one or two more questions. Thank you very much.

3 I will ask for just a moment -- although this is an exhibit that

4 is in evidence, it is Prosecution's 2/4.19, it is 2/4.19, it is in the

5 evidence that was submitted in 1999, in the binders, and to make it easier

6 for the Bench, we would be happy to provide copies. If there are enough

7 for counsel, we'd be happy to do that. And also 2/4.18. They essentially

8 are the same series.

9 Q. And I would just ask you one question about each document.

10 MS. SOMERS: If I may ask the usher to put on the ELMO -- perhaps

11 the English copy would be helpful on the ELMO.

12 Q. Witness DA/2, you may or may not have seen this because of when

13 you were in Bosnia last. However, this document, which purports to be an

14 official decision which has yet to be placed in law, talks about, in

15 Article 1 -- and this decision is on proclaiming abandoned property,

16 property of the state.

17 Article 1 says: "All abandoned property (real estate and movable

18 items) of persons who have left the territory of the Prijedor

19 Municipality, and of persons who participated in the armed uprising, is

20 temporarily proclaimed state property, the Prijedor Municipality becoming

21 entitled to all possession rights."

22 I will ask you just to look at the next -- and I will ask you a

23 question about each, but they're very linked.

24 The next document, which is 2/4.18, which is a document that is

25 marked from "The Crisis Staff of the War Presidency of Prijedor

Page 7755

1 Municipality Executive Committee Relating to the Public Security Service

2 from 29 April to 17 August 1992."

3 Point 4 mentions: "A conclusion of 30 June 1992, ordering all

4 owners of socially-owned flats to carry out checks by 20 July 1992 on

5 whether their flats are being used according to the regulations, and

6 establish the exact number of flats that have been vacated by residents or

7 are not being used in accordance with the current housing regulations and

8 signed contracts on the use of flats."

9 You may or may not have ever seen these documents, but they

10 exist. Can you tell us, please, when you made inquiry about your

11 apartment, did you check with the municipality of Prijedor, which,

12 according to this set of documents or one set of documents suggests it

13 became the owner when you left.

14 A. No, I didn't go to the municipality.

15 Q. In your conversations with the Kvockas, do you know -- did you

16 ever find out or inquire about the apartment of the brother-in-law? Is

17 it -- was it --

18 A. No.

19 Q. Not at all. You know nothing about its status then?

20 A. No. No.

21 Q. My last question to you, and I thank you for your patience. I

22 know this is not easy for you. How did your brother come to know

23 Mr. Kvocka?

24 A. I don't know that. I couldn't tell you anything about that. I

25 received the telephone number from my nephew, but I don't know how they

Page 7756

1 met. But they were there at his place, and I got the number from him so I

2 knew about him, but I don't know how they met. They knew each other from

3 before, but I don't know how they actually met.

4 I don't know him. I don't know the man, but we had contact on the

5 telephone. Whenever I called, I would get him. There was no problem

6 whatsoever. I was interested in knowing about how they were, about their

7 lives, and I wanted to hear that they were all well there and that they

8 were fighting for survival, all of them together. And what I sent them

9 was not enough. I knew that.

10 I didn't work at that time. I was living off social aid in this

11 third country. I first had to learn the language in order to be able to

12 find work. I didn't have enough money. Whatever I sent, they received

13 it.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

15 Witness DA/2. We have heard a lot about the difficulties that you

16 experienced.

17 But could we now wind up, Ms. Somers.

18 Very well. Mr. Simic, any additional questions for the witness?

19 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No. I have no additional

20 questions, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Judge Riad.

22 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 Questioned by the Court:

24 JUDGE RIAD: Witness DA/2, can you hear me? Good morning.

25 A. Yes. Good morning.

Page 7757

1 JUDGE RIAD: I just would like to know what brought your brother

2 to the old town, the Stari Grad, to live with Mr. Kvocka and his son? Do

3 you have an idea what brought him there?

4 A. No. No.

5 JUDGE RIAD: Stari Grad was a Serb quarter, wasn't it, where

6 Mr. Kvocka lived?

7 A. I don't know. They all lived there. We all lived together. It

8 was both a Muslim and a Serb town. I don't know. I wasn't interested in

9 such things.

10 JUDGE RIAD: But his residence was not in Stari Grad usually, the

11 brother. Where did he live before that?

12 A. No. Before that, he lived six kilometres away from Prijedor,

13 outside the town. He didn't live there.

14 JUDGE RIAD: And he had to leave his house to go and live with Mr.

15 Kvocka? Was he kicked out of his house?

16 A. I don't know that. I really cannot tell you about whether he was

17 kicked out of his house or not. He didn't say anything about that. It

18 was out of his concerns for his safety that he went to his house. But I

19 don't know how it all went, how they met and how he ended up there. I

20 told you I got the phone number of the place. He told me that they were

21 staying at his place, and that is how I contacted them.

22 JUDGE RIAD: And where did your sister-in-law go, the wife of your

23 brother? Did she go somewhere else or she stayed in her house?

24 A. She was there for a while and then she left with the other son,

25 the younger one.

Page 7758

1 JUDGE RIAD: Now, from your conversation with your brother, did

2 you understand that Mr. Kvocka was protecting him against anything?

3 A. Yes. He was there for sure. He was protecting them, yes.

4 JUDGE RIAD: And he was not feeling safe without -- I mean, he

5 wasn't there because he was not feeling safe?

6 A. Where?

7 JUDGE RIAD: He went to Mr. Kvocka because he was not feeling safe

8 in his house?

9 A. I don't know that. Sure, he didn't, yes.

10 JUDGE RIAD: And he didn't tell you why he wouldn't go to the

11 Muslim part?

12 A. No.

13 JUDGE RIAD: No. Thank you very much.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness DA/2, do you happen to

15 know the colour of my robe?

16 A. I don't even see you. I cannot even see you. Whether it's black,

17 I don't know.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you know who is talking to

19 you right now?

20 A. No.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] How come you don't know who is

22 talking to you right now?

23 So now you know?

24 A. Yes, yes. Now I know.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Now you know the colour of my

Page 7759

1 robe?

2 A. Yes. It's red and -- yes.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Witness DA/2. You

4 have come to the end of your testimony here. Thank you very much for

5 coming to the Tribunal, and we wish you a safe journey back to your place

6 of residence.

7 Could the usher please accompany the witness out of the

8 courtroom?

9 A. Thank you very much, Your Honours, for providing me with the

10 opportunity to tell you what I know and what is true.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We shall now have a break, a

14 50-minute break. Yesterday I made a mistake and we ended up with an

15 hour-and-ten-minute break. Today we will only have a 50-minute break at

16 this point.

17 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.55 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 1.54 p.m.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated. For an urgent

20 and unforeseeable reason, Judge Fouad Riad cannot be with us, so we will

21 continue pursuant to Rule 15 bis because Judge Wald and myself have

22 decided that we shall continue the hearing.

23 So Mr. Krstan Simic, please continue.

24 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence calls

25 Witness Nada Markovska. Yesterday we filed a request for facial

Page 7760

1 distortion for this witness and no other protective measures so that other

2 people will not be able to recognise her, but no other protective

3 measures.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Here is Judge Fouad Riad. He's

5 joining us.

6 I was just going to ask Mr. Simic whether the witness is already

7 here. Have we decide on protective measures for this witness?

8 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No. For this particular one, no.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I was looking at our decision,

10 and I don't see it.

11 So, Ms. Susan Somers, do you have any objections in relation to

12 this request for protective measures?

13 MS. SOMERS: None at all, Your Honour. None at all.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In that case, the Chamber grants

16 the protective measures, and we can have the witness brought in.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Can you hear

19 me, madam?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you're now going to read the

22 solemn declaration that the usher will give you, please.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please take a seat.

Page 7761

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.


3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you for coming. You will

5 first answer questions put to you by Mr. Krstan Simic.

6 Mr. Krstan Simic, your witness.

7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Examined by Mr. K. Simic:

9 Q. Good afternoon once again, Ms. Markovska. Before we start with

10 the examination, for the record will you please give us your full name?

11 A. My name is Nada Markovska.

12 Q. Please tell us the date of your birth.

13 A. The 3rd of March, 1950.

14 Q. Where were you born?

15 A. In Donja Gradina.

16 Q. Which municipality does that belong to?

17 A. Bosanska Dubica.

18 Q. Where are you living now?

19 A. In Prijedor.

20 Q. Are you married?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you have any children?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What are you by occupation?

25 A. A typist.

Page 7762

1 Q. After being trained as a typist, where did you start working?

2 A. I worked in Bosanska Dubica municipality. In 1971, I joined the

3 public security station in Prijedor, and I worked there until the 31st of

4 December, 2000.

5 Q. In 1992, you were also working in the Prijedor Public Security

6 Station?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In what department of the public security station?

9 A. In the crime police department.

10 Q. In June, July and August, 1992, did you have an assignment that

11 slightly differed from your everyday duties?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you tell us about it?

14 A. I continued doing the same job I did in the public security

15 station, that is typewriting.

16 Q. Where were you working then?

17 A. In the investigation centre at Omarska.

18 Q. Could you remember when you started working in the Omarska camp?

19 A. The attack on Prijedor was on the 30th of May, and a day or two

20 after that, as I didn't go to work, I was told to come to work, and then I

21 was given an order to go to Omarska.

22 Q. Who gave you this order?

23 A. The chief, Simo Drljaca.

24 Q. Were other persons from the Prijedor Public Security Station given

25 the same or similar orders?

Page 7763

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Who?

3 A. The inspectors from my service.

4 Q. Were there other typists who were given the same assignment?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who were they?

7 A. Slavica Dakic and Nerenka Sikman.

8 Q. How far is Omarska from Prijedor?

9 A. I don't really know exactly but about 30 kilometres.

10 Q. How did you travel to Omarska?

11 A. By bus.

12 Q. Where did you start from?

13 A. From in front of the building where I was employed.

14 Q. At what time would you arrive at the Omarska camp?

15 A. We would leave at 8.00 and we'd get there somewhere around 9.00.

16 Q. How long did you stay?

17 A. Normal working hours were until 3.00 p.m. We would stay until

18 5.00 or 6.00 if necessary, as long as 8.00 p.m.

19 Q. In that period, did you work all day, all the days of the week?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you and the other typists that you mentioned have a particular

22 premises where you performed your duties?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Where was that?

25 A. It was on the first floor of the administration building.

Page 7764

1 Q. Can you tell us more closely where it is?

2 A. When you climb up the steps, there was the toilet and then right

3 next to the toilet was our room.

4 Q. How big was that room?

5 A. It wasn't big, about 20 square metres.

6 Q. What kind of furniture was inside?

7 A. There were three tables, two typewriters, a radio station and a

8 telephone.

9 Q. Were there any cabinets?

10 A. There were some hangers.

11 Q. Who used these tables?

12 A. The tables were used by two typists, each had one, and the person

13 on duty there.

14 Q. Where were the interrogators?

15 A. They had their own office.

16 Q. You and your colleague, did you assist the interrogators?

17 A. We sat in this room and they would bring to us the drafts, and

18 sometimes they would dictate to us if they were in a hurry.

19 Q. You have been working in the police for many years, since 1981?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to the different types of inspectors

22 there were in the Omarska camp?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you tell us, please?

25 A. From my crime police section, there were inspectors from the state

Page 7765

1 security and also from the military security.

2 Q. Are these three separate sectors, three separate services?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Who was your boss?

5 A. Ranko Mijic.

6 Q. Was Mr. Mijic your boss in peacetime conditions as well?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Who was Mr. Mijic's superior?

9 A. Simo Drljaca.

10 Q. You had an inspector from the state security sector?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you know how many of them were there?

13 A. I don't know the number. Maybe five or six, maybe more. I don't

14 know.

15 Q. Do you know who was their chief in Omarska?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What was his name?

18 A. Mirko Jesic.

19 Q. Did you know him from before?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Was he professionally employed in the state security sector?

22 A. I think he was retired at the time, and he was probably activated

23 as a reservist, but I don't really know that.

24 Q. Who was Mirko Jesic's boss?

25 A. Simo Drljaca, but also probably somebody from Banja Luka because

Page 7766

1 that is quite a separate service. So I don't know.

2 Q. You also mentioned the military security sector. Do you know who

3 was their superior while you were working in Omarska?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Who?

6 A. Mr. Majstorovic. I don't know his ranks. I don't understand

7 ranks.

8 Q. Was he a military man?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did he have some stars on his shoulder?

11 A. He did, but I don't know how to read them.

12 Q. Ms. Markovska, you mentioned that in the office you were working

13 in some policemen were on duty as well. Who were those policemen? Who

14 did they belong to?

15 A. The policemen belonged to the department, the police department in

16 Omarska.

17 Q. Were they active or reserve policemen?

18 A. There were some from each group.

19 Q. While you were working there, how many policemen would be in that

20 room on duty at that table?

21 A. Sometimes there would be one, sometimes two or three. They would

22 come and go.

23 Q. The Omarska Police Station department, was it a component part of

24 the public security station in Prijedor?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7767

1 Q. Did you know who was the chief of the Omarska Police Station

2 department?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you know his name?

5 A. Yes. Zeljko Meakic.

6 Q. Had you known him from before?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was he a professional policeman?

9 A. Yes, he was.

10 Q. You were there on a daily basis for quite some time. Did you

11 notice any other persons or groups of people in Omarska?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Who?

14 A. Among the active-duty policemen?

15 Q. No. I mean workers.

16 A. Yes. There were workers from the Omarska mine. Then there were

17 people from the army, the reservists, some kind of military men. I don't

18 know who they were.

19 Q. Did you notice any special forces or units as they were called?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Let me go back to your room. What kind of conditions did you have

22 for work?

23 A. Terrible.

24 Q. When you say "terrible," what do you mean?

25 A. There was a lot to do. The space was limited. The temperature

Page 7768

1 was high. A lot of people were coming in and out. We had a lot of work

2 to do in our working day.

3 Q. The room you were in, where did the windows look to?

4 A. From this room, you could see some taps, that's all.

5 Q. You mean to the side?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could you see the area between the administration building and the

8 hangar?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Could you see the restaurant from your room?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Could you see the "white house," as it was called, from your

13 room?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Ms. Markovska, when you arrived to work, would you leave your room

16 and move around the other buildings?

17 A. No.

18 Q. When you came to work, how did you enter the administration

19 building?

20 A. Through the restaurant. Sometimes through the window of the

21 restaurant.

22 Q. Let me go back again to the leaders, the people in charge. Was

23 there any possibility for Mr. Meakic to be the superior to Mr. Mijic?

24 A. Absolutely not.

25 Q. Could Mr. Meakic order any interrogator belonging to the sector of

Page 7769

1 which Mr. Mijic was in charge?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Could Mr. Meakic issue an order to Mr. Mirko Jesic?

4 A. No. Of course not. That would be out of the question.

5 Q. Could Mr. Meakic issue an order to one of the interrogators from

6 the state security service?

7 A. Certainly not.

8 Q. And what about the interrogators from the military security?

9 A. No.

10 Q. You have been working in the police for many years. You are

11 familiar with the police structure. A police station department, does it

12 have an assistant commander?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Does it have a deputy commander?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Ms. Markovska, in the administration building itself, were there

17 any members of the security from the police station department in

18 Omarska?

19 A. Yes, there were.

20 Q. Were they active-duty or reserve policemen?

21 A. There were both.

22 Q. What was their duty?

23 A. They provided security.

24 Q. Were there security people on the floor where the offices were?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7770

1 Q. Did you notice what they were doing?

2 A. They were standing there. I didn't see anything else. What they

3 did, I don't know.

4 Q. Would the interrogators send them to bring the detainees?

5 A. The interrogators had a group of reserve policemen who would

6 assist the interrogators only. That was their job.

7 Q. Did this group belong to the Omarska Police Station department?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could the interrogators issue orders to these reserve policemen to

10 bring someone or to take someone back?

11 A. Yes, they could.

12 Q. Ms. Markovska, in this room in which you worked and in which

13 members of the security from the Omarska Police Station department were on

14 duty, would you come across Mr. Miroslav Kvocka?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know him from before?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What was his occupation?

19 A. He was a professional policeman. They were called milicionair

20 [phoen] In those days, militiamen.

21 Q. Did he stay on in Omarska for as long as you were there, until the

22 end?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you know when he left?

25 A. I think it was about some 20 or so days after I arrived.

Page 7771

1 Q. So after that, you didn't see him again in Omarska?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do you know where he lived?

4 A. I do not.

5 Q. Did you ever see Miroslav Kvocka issuing an order to any of the

6 policemen?

7 A. No.

8 Q. What would he be doing in the room that you were working in

9 together with your colleagues?

10 A. He had a radio station. He would answer the phone which was

11 linked to the offices where the interrogators were.

12 Q. Did you ever see him writing a report?

13 A. I think he did write something.

14 Q. Would he leave that room?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Why would he leave it? What did you think?

17 A. I already said it was a small room, there were too many of us

18 inside. The conditions for work were not appropriate, and so he would

19 leave.

20 Q. Would the commander, Mr. Meakic, come to that room as well?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did Mr. Meakic have another room?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. Ms. Markovska, you were there for quite sometime. While there,

25 did you ever go to any other room to attend the interrogations of

Page 7772

1 detainees by the interrogators?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did the interrogators ever bring the people they were

4 interrogating to the room in which you worked?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you have occasion to hear from the rooms in the administration

7 building, noise, shouts, screams?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you have occasion to come across some of the persons who were

10 being interrogated in the corridors?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you, on that occasion, notice on the faces or bodies of the

13 persons interrogated any traces?

14 A. There were people with injuries, with bruises on their faces.

15 Q. How often did you have occasion to see that?

16 A. Not frequently. Occasionally, when I went to the toilet. I

17 didn't leave the room I worked in often.

18 Q. That noise and those moans, were they frequent, more frequent than

19 the frequency of your encounters with these people?

20 A. At the beginning, it was more frequent. Later on, there was

21 hardly any at all.

22 Q. Did you eat in the restaurant in the ground floor of that

23 building?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Were you ever present when the detainees were having their meal?

Page 7773

1 A. No.

2 Q. Were you ever present when they went to eat, to have lunch?

3 A. No.

4 Q. How did the interrogators have their meals?

5 A. There weren't fixed times but in the morning, one meal would be

6 brought and then there was a room where we had breakfast, and then we went

7 back to our offices.

8 Q. Which room was it?

9 A. It was a big room, I think the largest in that building.

10 Q. Do you know who would be staying in that room?

11 A. I think the inspectors, the interrogators. I don't know who they

12 were.

13 Q. The members of the security, did they have breakfast with you in

14 that room?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you have a second meal?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How would that second meal be served for you and where?

19 A. Returning from the investigation centre in Omarska, there was a

20 building where we had that second meal on our way home.

21 Q. Was that meal served in the same place where the food was

22 prepared?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And after that, you would go home?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7774

1 Q. You never saw Mr. Kvocka in any other place except the room in

2 which you worked, is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could Mr. Kvocka give Ranko Mijic an order?

5 A. No. What an idea.

6 Q. The name is Ranko Mijic, M-i-j-i-c.

7 MR. K. SIMIC [Interpretation} Your Honours, in view of the fact

8 it is 2.30 and we would like to finish by 3.00, so I thought it would be

9 fair to share the time equally and I have no further questions.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Though we don't need to view

11 things so strictly, but anyway, thank you. Have you already consulted the

12 other counsel that they don't have any further questions? Because if

13 other counsel have questions, then perhaps that wouldn't stand, but

14 anyway, you didn't make provision for that. So the other counsel have no

15 questions? No. Thank you.

16 The Prosecution. But we really do have to finish at 3.00, and you

17 have not counted on the questions of the Judges, Mr. Simic, but we thank

18 you anyway.

19 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I thought my learned

20 friend would make up to me the time she used which was more, much more,

21 than I did the last time, with the last witness.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In any event, you can't expect

23 the Prosecution to ask the questions of the Judges. We thank you any way

24 but things are not always so -- cannot be so strictly divided. So any

25 way, witness, you will now be answering questions from the Prosecution.

Page 7775

1 Please proceed.

2 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Saxon:

4 Q. Ms. Markovska, you mentioned that Zeljko Meakic could not give

5 orders to a number of people. You said that he could not give orders to

6 Mirko Jesic or the representatives of the state security service?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You said that he could not give orders to the interrogators from

9 the military security service. My first question for you, then, is: Who

10 could Zeljko Meakic give orders to at the Omarska camp?

11 A. The policemen, or as we used to call them, the militiamen.

12 Q. You also mentioned that Miroslav Kvocka could not give orders to -

13 I hope I'm pronouncing the name correctly - Ranko Mijic; is that right?

14 A. That is right.

15 Q. Ranko Mijic's responsibilities at the Omarska camp was to work on

16 investigation and interrogation; is that right?

17 A. No. He was a sort of -- from -- there were inspectors from the

18 public security and military security, and he -- there was this

19 coordination, so, among the three. I don't know what they did exactly.

20 Q. Ranko Mijic was one of the inspectors, is that right?

21 A. No. He was head of the crime police. He wasn't an inspector.

22 Q. And Miroslav Kvocka worked with the policemen who provided

23 security at the Omarska camp, is that right?

24 A. He was a policeman. Miroslav Kvocka was an active-duty policeman.

25 Q. Was he working as part of the security unit working at the Omarska

Page 7776

1 camp?

2 A. Yes. He did some duty work.

3 Q. When Zeljko Meakic was not at the Omarska camp, who would give

4 instructions to the policemen performing the security work?

5 A. He made up a schedule, and everybody knew what they had to do. As

6 the commander of the department, he would draw up a timetable or schedule

7 for the duties and the policemen to perform those duties.

8 Q. What would happen if there was a problem with the schedule when

9 Mr. Meakic was not there? Who would take care of the problem?

10 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic.

12 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Ms. Markovska is a typist, a

13 technical member of the staff, and my learned colleague is asking for her

14 to speculate as to what would happen when Mr. Meakic was absent.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, objection overruled.

16 Objection overruled.

17 Please proceed, Mr. Prosecutor.


19 Q. Ms. Markovska, my question was simple. When Mr. Meakic was not at

20 the Omarska camp and a problem in scheduling came up, who would deal with

21 that problem?

22 A. I don't know. That -- I didn't pay attention to things like

23 that. My job was to do the typing. So I didn't think about those

24 problems at all. And that was quite natural. I had my work to do, a lot

25 of it, so I couldn't go into things of that kind. That would be

Page 7777

1 ludicrous.

2 Q. Ms. Markovska, what is your ethnicity?

3 A. I'm a Serb.

4 Q. You were considered to be a fast, accurate, and reliable typist;

5 is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. After the Serb takeover of power at the end of April 1992, you

8 continued to work at the Prijedor Public Security Station?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were your Muslim and Croat colleagues at the Prijedor Public

11 Security Station able to continue working there after the Serb takeover of

12 power?

13 A. Yes, they were.

14 Q. They were. None of your Muslim --

15 A. Well, they could continue their work, but they didn't want to. So

16 there were two or three to came to work regularly. The others boycotted

17 their jobs and didn't want to come to work, but they weren't prevented or

18 forbidden to do so by anyone.

19 Q. Were your Muslim and Croat colleagues asked to sign a loyalty oath

20 to the new Serb power structure or the new Serb government before they

21 could come back to work?

22 A. I can't remember exactly, but I do think that they had to sign

23 something.

24 Q. Prior to 1992, did you know an employee of the public security

25 station named Ago Sadikovic?

Page 7778

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How did you know him?

3 A. He worked in my department, my service, for economic crime. There

4 is -- we have a section for general crime, economic crimes, and the

5 technology of crime, and I worked in the general crimes department.

6 Q. Did you know an employee named Vahid Rizvanovic, also known as

7 Vaha?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. How about an employee named Safeta Susic?

10 A. Yes, I knew her too.

11 Q. An employee named - and forgive me for my pronunciation because I

12 don't speak your language - Reuf Travancic?

13 A. Reuf, yes, yes. Reuf Travancic, yes.

14 Q. Zijad Badnjevic?

15 A. Zijad Badnjevic.

16 Q. Nedzija Fazlic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you have a good relationship with Mrs. Fazlic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You knew her husband, Fehim Fazlic?

21 A. By sight.

22 Q. Can you think of any reason why Nedzija Fazlic would lie about

23 you?

24 A. Well, I don't know. All I can say is that while I worked there,

25 four or five times I took her husband parcels from that same Nedzija

Page 7779

1 Fazlic. I took parcels from her to him. I don't know what she said and

2 I'm not interested in it. What I'm here doing is telling the truth.

3 Q. In fact, you helped Mrs. Fazlic when Mr. Fazlic was detained in

4 the Omarska camp.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You helped send food to Mr. Fazlic; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that's right. Yes. Thank goodness. Yes, I did. Not only

8 myself. We all did.

9 Q. What is the ethnicity of Mr. and Mrs. Fazlic?

10 A. Muslims.

11 Q. Were you disciplined or fired from your job for helping them?

12 A. No. No.

13 Q. You said, "We all did." Do you mean your colleagues? You and

14 your colleagues at the Prijedor Police Station, you would bring food to

15 the people at the Omarska camp?

16 A. Yes. Yes. And let me tell you, every other Muslim in the camp

17 had his Serb, so to speak; that is to say, if somebody knew someone, he

18 would take them food, packages, parcels. That was the kind of thing that

19 we did. Perhaps not in the first couple of days, but afterwards, because

20 to begin with, we were a little afraid, but then we all did it, because

21 what you could do. They're fellow human beings just like us. We have to

22 help each other.

23 Q. Your colleagues were not disciplined for helping these fellow

24 human beings in the camp, were they?

25 A. No. No.

Page 7780

1 Q. Now, you mentioned that you knew Miroslav Kvocka. Prior to the

2 start of the war, what was Mr. Kvocka's reputation as a policeman?

3 A. He was an excellent colleague, a professional police officer. He

4 went about his duties professionally.

5 Q. When he was in that room where you were typing at the Omarska

6 camp, can you give an estimate of how much time Mr. Kvocka might spend in

7 that room?

8 A. Well, perhaps half the time that we were there maybe. He would

9 come in and go out, come in and out. So I can't say exactly.

10 Q. But in any given day, if you were at the camp for approximately

11 eight hours, then Mr. Kvocka might come in and come out and actually be

12 present in the room for three or four hours at a time or in total?

13 A. Well, something like that. You could put it that way.

14 Q. Before the war in 1992, did you know a man named Mladjo Radic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How did you know Mr. Radic?

17 A. He was a professional policeman and a colleague of mine.

18 Q. Prior to 1992, what was Mr. Radic's reputation as a policeman?

19 A. Well, nothing special. I know that he worked as a policeman. He

20 was a professional policeman.

21 Q. Ms. Markovska, while you were in that office on the first floor of

22 the administration building at the Omarska camp and you were tying up

23 notes, was Mr. Mladjo Radic ever present in that room?

24 A. Yes. He would stand at the -- on the landing by the steps, by the

25 stairway. I think that's where his guard post was. And he would come

Page 7781

1 into our room from time to time, and I would give him the parcels from

2 Nedzija Fazlic to give to her husband because I didn't have any contact

3 with the people, the detainees in the investigation centre.

4 Q. Did Mr. Radic ever spend longer periods of time in that room when

5 you were there typing?

6 A. He would come in from time to time. He would stay there a short

7 period of time and then leave. Not for long periods, no.

8 Q. Before the war in 1992, did you know a man named Dragoljub Prcac?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How did you know him?

11 A. He worked in the crime technology sector, which belongs to my own

12 service, and then retired before the war.

13 Q. If you know, what was Mr. Prcac's professional reputation?

14 A. He was well-liked, respected. Everybody had the best to say about

15 him. He was quiet. He was a calm man. That was the type of man he was.

16 Q. While you were typing in that office in the administration

17 building on the first floor in Omarska, was Mr. Dragoljub Prcac ever

18 present in the room with you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What would Mr. Prcac be doing there?

21 A. He had some papers. He would take some papers, write something

22 down. I don't actually know what he did. At the time, he was a reserve

23 policeman. All our inspectors who had retired, in the case of imminent

24 war or war, would receive their wartime assignment, and then they would

25 report to where they had their assignment. And their assignment was with

Page 7782

1 our service and that's how they came to be there performing the duties

2 they performed.

3 Q. Yes. Thank you for explaining that. About how much time would

4 Mr. Prcac spend in that room on average?

5 A. Perhaps he left the room less than Mr. Kvocka. He would stay in

6 the room perhaps longer. He would go out from time to time.

7 Q. Do you recall approximately the first time you saw Mr. Prcac in

8 the Omarska camp? I know you said -- I believe you said you worked June,

9 July, and into August. When did you first see Mr. Prcac there?

10 A. That's a difficult question. I think that in the middle of

11 July -- I worked for a month and a half, and I think then I asked Mr. Simo

12 Drljaca for somebody to replace me because they were very difficult

13 working conditions. We worked every day. The work was hard, and I have a

14 family. I have my mother's place in the village. And so when I went to

15 see Mr. Drljaca, I asked if somebody could replace me. And he

16 said, "Well, there's no problem there," and then Nevenka Sikman came. I

17 think when she left -- she worked for one week, and then I did one week.

18 She did one week; I did one week. Now, whether I see him at the, saw him

19 at the end of July or thereabouts, I can't say exactly. It's difficult

20 for me to remember now.

21 Q. Do you know whether you saw Mr. Prcac at the Omarska camp prior to

22 the time you went to see Mr. Drljaca and asked to be transferred away from

23 the camp? If you don't know --

24 A. I don't think I did. I can't remember.

25 Q. You've talked about how hard you and your fellow typists, or

Page 7783

1 typists were working in that room, and that it was hot and the conditions

2 were difficult. I just want to understand what you were doing. Would it

3 be fair to say that during the day, interrogations of prisoners would

4 occur in the rooms on the first floor of that administration building, and

5 then the interrogators or the inspectors would bring their notes, or as

6 you put it, their drafts to you and would you type them up?

7 A. Yes, that is right, yes.

8 Q. What kind of information was in the notes that you typed up?

9 A. There was the attack on Prijedor, first Hambarine and then

10 Prijedor, and the people who were detained --

11 Q. Let me interrupt you. I'm not asking for the history of the

12 conflict, simply asking you what kind of information would be in --

13 A. You mean what it said?

14 Q. What kinds of information would be -- would you be typing up?

15 A. What the interrogators asked. It said, did so and so take part in

16 the attack on Prijedor, what kind of weapons they had, who organised them,

17 things of that kind. I don't know. I can't remember the details now

18 because I typed out thousands and thousands of pages of documents. I

19 can't remember them all but that was the gist of it and that was the

20 purpose of the interrogations, the organisation and so on.

21 Q. Did the notes indicate which detainees were considered to be

22 dangerous people or extremists, if I can use that term?

23 A. Well, it was not information, it was statements. They were

24 statements made by the people interrogated and what the individual stated

25 was recorded. I don't know who was dangerous, who wasn't. It was just a

Page 7784

1 record of what the people had said.

2 Q. And it was particularly important to note down whether certain

3 prisoners said they had participated in resisting the new Serb authority?

4 Would that be a fair statement?

5 A. Yes, yes. That was particularly important.

6 Q. A minute or two ago, you mentioned something that I'd like to come

7 back to. You mentioned the purpose of the interrogations, the

8 organisation and so on. I'd like to ask you, typing up all those notes,

9 thousands of pages, doing all that hard work, what did you understand to

10 be the purpose or the objective of all that hard work that was being done

11 at the Omarska camp? What was the purpose of all of that?

12 A. Well, the purpose was to arrive at the truth, that is to say who

13 organised the attack on Prijedor, who had organised it, and everything

14 else that happened, all the other incidents, and to write a criminal

15 report on that.

16 Q. Did you ever discuss this purpose with your work colleagues at the

17 Omarska camp?

18 A. When we went there, we were told that we'd be there for a few

19 days. We didn't actually know how long it would last.

20 Q. Ms. Markovska, that's not what I asked you. My question was: Did

21 you ever discuss this purpose with your work colleagues at the Omarska

22 camp?

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat her answer, please?

24 A. No, no, I did not.

25 Q. So is it your testimony that as you were doing all this work, day

Page 7785

1 in and day out, in the heat, June, July and August of 1992, people were

2 coming in and out of the room where you were typing, you never discussed

3 the basis or the purpose of what you were doing with other people who were

4 there?

5 A. It was my job to type, and they decided what they would do with

6 those papers. We wondered when it would all stop. I had nothing else to

7 discuss.

8 Q. Did you ever discuss these matters with people providing security

9 at the camp, such as the active or reserve policemen who were there?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you ever show Miroslav Kvocka the notes that you were typing

12 at the Omarska camp?

13 A. No, no.

14 Q. Did you ever show any member of the security service there any of

15 the notes that you had typed?

16 A. No, no.

17 Q. Apart from the notes or reports of these interrogations that you

18 typed up, did you also type up lists of detainees at the Omarska camp?

19 A. Yes. I think we did, several times. That is to say I did, and my

20 colleague did too.

21 Q. What were these lists for?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. You say you and your colleague typed up these lists. Which

24 colleague? Who was the other colleague who worked on these lists?

25 A. Slavica Lakic.

Page 7786

1 Q. You say you do not know what these lists were for. Would the

2 lists ever have a title or a heading at the top?

3 A. No, just names and surnames. I don't know. Maybe the inspectors

4 did. We were just brought a list and when we finished typing it out, the

5 inspector would come or somebody else and get the list.

6 Q. Isn't it hard to know what a list is for if the list does not say

7 that -- if it doesn't have a title?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Did you ever see or type any lists or any reports that talked

10 about different categories of prisoners at the Omarska camp?

11 A. I don't understand how you mean different categories.

12 Q. Well, you are aware, aren't you, that prisoners at the Omarska

13 camp were divided into three different categories?

14 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection. Objection.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic.

16 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] The question was, "You know, do you

17 not, that the different categories," and so on. It was a leading

18 question, in fact, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic, but let me say

20 that you should take a look at your own -- the transcript of your own

21 examination-in-chief because you're accusing each other mutually, that the

22 other party is asking leading questions. This is mirrored. It is

23 reflected in yours too.

24 But anyway, Mr. Saxon, perhaps you could reformulate your

25 question.

Page 7787


2 Q. What were the different categories or designations of prisoners at

3 the Omarska camp during the summer of 1992?

4 A. Yes. I remember there was the first, second, and third category.

5 Q. What did the first category mean? What did it mean to be put into

6 the first category?

7 A. The first category was probably those -- the most extremist

8 people, the organisers. Those who had taken part in the attack and so

9 forth.

10 Q. What did it mean to be in the second category, category number 2?

11 A. Perhaps those who had had weapons. I really don't know, because

12 when I typed out the lists, it didn't say first, second, third --

13 statements, in the statements it didn't say first, second, and third

14 category.

15 Q. What did it mean to be in category number 3?

16 A. I know that some detainees went to a collection centre in

17 Trnopolje, so that was probably that.

18 Q. All right. So if you were a detainee placed into category

19 number 3, you'd be transferred to the Trnopolje centre; is that right?

20 But if you were in category 1, you would not be sent on to Trnopolje?

21 A. Probably.

22 Q. What happened to the prisoners who were designated in category 1?

23 A. I don't understand. Nothing happened.

24 Q. Well, you said that prisoners in category 3 would be sent off to

25 the Trnpoloje Reception Centre. Where, if anywhere, would the prisoners

Page 7788

1 in category 1 be sent or did they simply stay at the Omarska camp?

2 A. They stayed. They stayed in the Omarska camp.

3 Q. Are they still there?

4 A. How do you mean "still there"?

5 Q. Are they still in the Omarska camp?

6 A. You mean now in the Omarska camp? Well, no, of course not. Do

7 you know when it was disbanded, Omarska camp?

8 Q. I do. That's why I'm asking the question. What happened to the

9 people in the first category?

10 A. How should I know what happened to them?

11 Q. Do you recall typing up the notes from the interrogation or

12 interrogations of a prisoner at Omarska named Miroslav Solaja?

13 A. I don't remember.

14 Q. How about the interrogation or interrogations of a prisoner named

15 Becir Medunjanin?

16 A. I don't remember whether I typed that statement, but Becir

17 Medunjanin was a well-known organiser of the Muslims, yes.

18 Q. Does that mean he would have been put in category 1, the category

19 for extremists?

20 A. Most probably, yes.

21 Q. How about Becir Medunjanin's wife, a woman named Mrs. Sadeta

22 Medunjanin? Did you type up the notes from her interrogation or

23 interrogations?

24 A. I can't remember that.

25 Q. Do you recall if you typed up the notes from the interrogation or

Page 7789

1 interrogations of a prisoner at Omarska named Edna Dautovic?

2 A. No. I don't remember at all.

3 Q. Do you remember a woman who was detained at the camp named Edna

4 Dautovic?

5 A. No. I'm hearing that name for the first time.

6 Q. Ms. Markovska, can you recall typing up the notes describing the

7 interrogation of a 13-year-old boy from Kozarac who was interrogated at

8 the Omarska camp by Mr. Dragan Ratikovic?

9 A. No. I don't remember. I don't think so.

10 Q. Can you recall the age of the youngest person who was interrogated

11 and for whom you had to type up the notes?

12 A. No. I am a professional. I type and I forget. If I were to

13 remember all the names and everything that I typed out, I would have to

14 have a computer in my head. You can't expect me to remember all that.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, simply to remind you

16 of the time.

17 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. May I have five more

18 minutes?

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but you must have a good

20 reason for it.

21 MR. SAXON: I hope that I do. Thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We'll see. So please proceed.

23 MR. SAXON: Ms. Markovska, the office where you were doing your

24 typing, that was along a corridor that ran along the first floor of the

25 administration building; right?

Page 7790

1 A. Yes. Yes.

2 Q. That corridor, it's only about 30 or 35 steps long, is that true?

3 A. I don't know. I didn't count them. Maybe like the distance from

4 me here till the end of the wall. Till the wall. As far as the wall.

5 Something like that.

6 Q. The people working along that corridor in the different rooms

7 during the summer of 1992, did they keep the windows open in the rooms

8 because of the heat and the humidity?

9 A. Well, they probably opened them occasionally. I don't know.

10 Q. Did you ever see blood in any of the rooms along that corridor?

11 A. No.

12 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.

14 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] The witness explicitly stated that

15 she only went to the room where they had lunch and to none of the rooms

16 where the interrogators were. So she couldn't have seen anything anyway.

17 MR. SAXON: I'll move on, Your Honour, at this point.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, please do.


20 Q. Did you ever smell human excrement while you sat in your office

21 typing professionally?

22 A. No. I could feel the smell of chlorine because the cleaning

23 ladies would clean all the rooms with chlorine because it was hot and

24 there were many people there, there were a lot of us, and to avoid any

25 infectious disease from spreading.

Page 7791

1 Q. Are you aware that there was a group of women who were detained at

2 the Omarska camp?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. While you were working there, did you ever hear any of the guards

5 or camp personnel refer to these women as whores?

6 A. No. No.

7 Q. How about the phrase "Muslim whores"? Did you ever hear that

8 phrase directed at any of these women?

9 A. No, I did not.

10 Q. Did you ever see any guards or camp personnel call out one of

11 these female detainees from a room or from an area and take them to

12 another room or another area?

13 A. No. No. I never had occasion to see that.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And your last question,

15 Mr. Saxon.

16 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time I have no further

17 questions. Thank you.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very

19 much.

20 Mr. Simic, additional questions?

21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Just one, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please go ahead.

23 Re-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

24 Q. Ms. Markovska, did anyone from security give you any typing

25 assignments?

Page 7792

1 A. No.

2 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I have no other questions, Your

3 Honour.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Simic.

5 Judge Fouad Riad. Thank you.

6 We would like to try and finish with this witness today, so we're

7 going to proceed.

8 Questioned by the Court:

9 JUDGE RIAD: Good afternoon. Can you hear me?

10 A. Good afternoon. Yes, I can. Thank you.

11 JUDGE RIAD: Just a few questions for clarification. You

12 indicated that in the beginning of a certain period, you would hear moans

13 and screams frequently and then in a second period it started fading away

14 until it almost disappeared. Do you have an idea who was in charge of the

15 camp in this period, in the first one and then the second one which you

16 made a real distinction between?

17 A. There is no main commander and subsidiary commander. This was the

18 beginning.

19 JUDGE RIAD: There was no commander of the camp?

20 A. No. I explained that there was the commander of the department,

21 police station department, and reserve and active duty policemen. There

22 were no commanders.

23 JUDGE RIAD: All right. The active -- whatever you call him. You

24 call him the active duty policeman. Who was the active duty policeman in

25 the period which you mentioned where there were many moans and screams?

Page 7793

1 And then who was the active duty policeman in the period that you

2 mentioned was without screams?

3 A. They were the same at the beginning and at the end, except for

4 Kvocka, who left earlier.

5 JUDGE RIAD: And Mr. Prcac was there at the beginning only or at

6 the end?

7 A. No, no.

8 JUDGE RIAD: No what? Was he there at the beginning or in the

9 end, in the first period and the second period?

10 A. In the second period, from about mid-July, maybe later. I don't

11 know. I can't tell you the exact date.

12 JUDGE RIAD: And this period, you say there were hardly any moans

13 or screams?

14 A. There weren't.

15 JUDGE RIAD: There weren't. And in the first period, you said

16 there was?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE RIAD: Did that Mr. Prcac and Mr. Kvocka used to come to

19 your room when you were typing papers in that administration?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE RIAD: Was it some kind of normal habit, natural, that

22 anybody would come in your room, any guards, or was it only for certain

23 people who would come in?

24 A. The others, the reserve policemen, would also come by. What they

25 were doing there, why they entered, why they went out, I don't know. All

Page 7794













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English

14 and French transcripts.












Page 7795

1 I was doing was typing away. I was focusing on what I was doing. I

2 didn't pay attention. Why they came in, I have no idea.

3 JUDGE RIAD: You said that Mr. Prcac would stay longer than Mr.

4 Kvocka. Then he would be doing something?

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE RIAD: What would they be doing?

7 A. He would sit there at his table. He had some papers in front of

8 him. What he was doing, I don't know.

9 JUDGE RIAD: And did you ever attend any inquiries, any

10 investigations, as a typist, to type down the report?

11 A. No. I was only in my own room, never in the presence of the

12 person being interviewed. The inspector would bring me the statement

13 taken from that person, or he would actually dictate that statement to me.

14 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Ms. Markovski, thank you.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. Judge Wald?

16 JUDGE WALD: Ms. Markovski, I just have a few questions, okay?

17 These statements that you typed, when the interrogator brought them to

18 you, were they generally in a report form? In other words, the

19 interrogator wrote down the summary of what he had heard? Or were they in

20 a question and answer form, you know, question and then answer? Or were

21 they a narrative report that the interrogator gave of what he had heard?

22 A. There were cases of both. Some would write question and answer,

23 and some would make their own sort of report.

24 JUDGE WALD: Okay. The second question is: Did any of the

25 detainees ever sign these reports? I mean, if -- as in many police

Page 7796

1 reports, when a person interrogated, then they are shown the statement at

2 the end and they sign. But were any of the statements that you saw or to

3 your knowledge ever shown to or signed by the detainee who was being

4 questioned?

5 A. I don't know what they did with that once I had typed it out and

6 once they took it away. What they did with them, I don't know. I had no

7 occasion to see them.

8 JUDGE WALD: That's my next question but let me ask it to make

9 sure I have the full answer. When you finished typing the reports, you

10 gave it back to whoever the interrogator was who had given the notes to

11 you in the first place?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE WALD: You were never asked to send copies of the notes on

14 to anyone else or to mail the report? You always just gave it back to the

15 interrogator, and he did something, but you don't know what, with it?

16 A. No. That interrogator would come with the document or some other

17 one and then they would take it away, and what they did with it after

18 that, I just don't know.

19 JUDGE WALD: So you never had to mail reports on to anyone else?

20 A. No, no. That's out of the question.

21 JUDGE WALD: Roughly how many, would you say, interrogations were

22 conducted during an average workday? In other words, including ones that

23 both you and your colleague typed, how many of these a day?

24 A. I really don't know whether there were 20 or so interrogators or

25 40, then 20 or 40. If each one could interrogate two, then there might

Page 7797

1 have been 20 or 40 reports.

2 JUDGE WALD: Yeah. Well, you told us that you were -- I had the

3 quote, you had lots of work and that you were very busy so --

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 JUDGE WALD: In one of these days, would it be likely that you,

6 just you, would be asked to type 20 of these reports, 20 of these

7 statements, 20 --

8 A. Yes, yes, more, even more than that.

9 JUDGE WALD: Even more. And so did that continue right up to the

10 end of the time that you worked there?

11 A. At first, it never stopped, and that's why I asked to be

12 replaced. Later on, it was easier.

13 JUDGE WALD: It got fewer?

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE WALD: Last question. You mentioned that in the room, there

16 was a telephone and some form of radio communication.

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE WALD: Now, did anybody -- was anybody running that radio

19 communication during part or all of the time you were there? I mean, in

20 other words, was there any guard, policeman, et cetera, who was manning

21 that radio station, most, part or all of the time that you were there?

22 A. Miroslav Kvocka, when he was there, if somebody called, he would

23 answer. This radio receiver was linked to the police station in Omarska,

24 and the other telephone, the telephone itself, was just for the premises

25 there.

Page 7798

1 JUDGE WALD: So there were some times when you and the typist were

2 in the room and there wasn't anybody else in the room in case radio

3 communications came through. Now, you mention that Mr. Radic came

4 sometimes into the room but you said he didn't stay as long as Mr. Prcac

5 did. So was Mr. Radic sometimes or often or just infrequently doing --

6 manning that radio, doing something to do with the radio or the

7 telephone?

8 A. I think he could have used them, but how often he did, I don't

9 know.

10 JUDGE WALD: Well, you told us --

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE WALD: You told us that he came in sometimes, but I have my

13 notes which said he didn't stay long, so I assume he may have used them

14 when he came in, but if he didn't stay long, then he wasn't there all the

15 time using them. Is that fair to say?

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you very much.

18 A. He probably had another workplace somewhere.

19 JUDGE WALD: Okay.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge

21 Wald.

22 Witness, I also have a few questions but I shall try to be brief.

23 I saw in the transcript Markovska or Markovski. Which is your surname?

24 A. Markovski. Because in Macedonia, it would be Markovska but

25 because I live where I live, it's Markovski.

Page 7799

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We could go on talking about

2 accents but we don't do that. Thank you anyway. I have a question. I

3 thought I heard Mr. Simic asking you something like this: "You have

4 worked for many years in the police. Was there a deputy commander in a

5 police station department?" Do you remember what your answer was?

6 A. No.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm asking you now. In a

8 police station department, is there a deputy commander?

9 A. No, no. I think there is not. The Omarska department was part of

10 the police station in Prijedor, so I don't really know the organogram. I

11 know more about my own sector, the crime service sector.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but the Omarska

13 department, did it have somebody who could replace the commander?

14 A. I don't know.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that you said that the

16 camp commander was Zeljko Meakic; is that true?

17 A. No, no. He was commander of the police station department.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So I'm asking you who was the

19 commander of the Omarska centre?

20 A. There was no commander.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Who was the person in charge

22 for the Omarska centre?

23 A. Probably the person who sent us there. I assume that was Cimo

24 Drljaca.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Go on, please.

Page 7800

1 A. We all had our individual assignments, those of us who went there,

2 and the person who gave us those assignments surely was responsible.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But who was giving orders in

4 the Omarska camp?

5 A. There were no orders.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No one gave orders?

7 A. No, because everybody knew what he was to do. Everybody knew what

8 his job was. I go to work, I know what I have to do, what my job is. I

9 don't need to be given any orders.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So there was no one in charge

11 of the Omarska camp? Is that what you're telling us?

12 A. It wasn't a camp. It was an investigation centre, so there was no

13 commander or anyone giving orders.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] How many persons were there in

15 this investigation centre?

16 A. I don't know the number but there were many.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ten?

18 A. No. More.

19 Q. More than a thousand or 2.000?

20 A. Yes, 2.000.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So all these persons were there

22 waiting for their turn to be questioned, is that so?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Tell us something

25 else. Were you ever exposed to any threats for having assisted Muslim

Page 7801

1 persons who were in the investigation centre in Omarska? Not the camp,

2 excuse me.

3 A. No.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Apart from the telephone and

5 the radio receiver in your room, was there any other means of

6 communication?

7 A. No, there wasn't.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. So, Ms.

9 Markovski or Markovska, depending on the accent -- oh, I beg your pardon.

10 I forgot to give Mr. Fila and Mr. Jovan Simic a chance to question the

11 witness, because Mr. Radic and Mr. Prcac were mentioned in the

12 cross-examination of the Prosecutor.

13 Mr. Fila, do you have any questions.

14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I gave my time to

15 Mr. Krstan Simic.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Mr. Jovan Simic?

17 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] We don't have any questions

18 either, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You aren't going to ask me for

20 questions now.

21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. In line with my

22 established practice, I wish to point out that we have corroboration of

23 this testimony by the interrogator Rade Knezevic.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

25 But finally, madam, one more question. You told my colleague

Page 7802

1 Judge Wald that there were two types of reports, in indirect form and

2 those with questions and answers. Is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Could you tell us if there were

5 interrogators who used one particular form and others who used the other

6 or was this random, a matter of chance?

7 A. It depended on the interrogator, whatever he found easier to do,

8 probably. I don't know. I never discussed it with him, but I know that

9 there were these different forms.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Were you able to identify the

11 interrogator who drafted a report?

12 A. No. I've got accustomed to various handwritings. If you mean

13 signatures, no. They weren't signed.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] That is why I am asking you the

15 question. You recognised the handwriting. So were there interrogators --

16 A. No. It's not a question of recognising handwritings. It's an

17 ability to read different handwritings. And these notes were not signed.

18 Whether they were signed later, I don't know.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So that brings to an end your

20 testimony. We've been working for less than an hour and a half, so it is

21 now 3.25. Anyway, we have been working hard.

22 Thank you very much for coming here, and we wish you a safe

23 journey home. I will ask the usher to accompany you out. Thank you.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too, Your Honours.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 7803

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Before we adjourn, I should like

2 to apologise, but Judge Fouad Riad did tell me that he wasn't feeling

3 quite well. We didn't know exactly where he was. He was kind enough and

4 diligent enough to come and join us nevertheless, and we thank him for

5 this.

6 So we can now adjourn, and we will all be back here at 9.20

7 tomorrow.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.25 p.m.,

9 to be reconvened on Friday, the 9th day of

10 February, 2001, at 9.20 a.m.