Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8424

1 Monday, 19 February 2001

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.24 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning. Please be

6 seated. Good morning, technical booth, the interpreters, everyone present

7 in the courtroom; good morning to counsel for the Prosecution and for the

8 Defence.

9 We will resume our work, and I see that Mr. Nikolic is ready to

10 begin.

11 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, and thank you, Your

12 Honours.

13 [Kos Defence Opening Statement]

14 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] May I begin by asking the usher for

15 his assistance. I have three documents which I should like to tender into

16 evidence. This morning, those documents were marked for identification by

17 the Registry. I also have copies for members of the Trial Chamber.

18 Your Honours, I have just provided the Registry with all three

19 original documents and translations into French and English, and I hope

20 Your Honours have copies now too.

21 These three documents were previously, through a Defence brief of

22 the 12th of February this year, produced to the Tribunal as an attachment

23 to the brief for their inclusion in the evidence, pursuant to Rule 89(C)

24 of the Rules of Procedure. May I begin my opening statement by referring

25 to these documents.

Page 8425

1 The first document, marked as Defence Exhibit D3/2, is the

2 original of a certificate on the completion of the secondary school for

3 catering. This document confirms the date when Mr. Milojica Kos graduated

4 from this catering educational institution and became a waiter in 1981.

5 The second exhibit has been marked D4/2. It is the original

6 certificate issued by the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Republika

7 Srpska, that is, the Omarska Police Station, which certifies that Milojica

8 Kos became a member of the reserve police force on the 6th of May, 1992,

9 and that he remained in this police station department as a reserve

10 policeman until the 8th of November, 1992.

11 The third document is Exhibit D5/2. It is the original

12 certificate issued by the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Republika Srpska

13 and the Secondary School for Internal Affairs in Banja Luka certifying

14 that Milojica Kos completed a course and became a policeman. The

15 certificate is dated November 12th, 1993.

16 Your Honours, at the beginning of this case in his opening

17 statement, the Prosecutor said, and I shall paraphrase if I may, that this

18 is a trial of the government policy of persecution and ethnic cleansing

19 and stated that the accused would endeavour to persuade the Trial Chamber

20 that they had not planned, advocated, or instigated and ordered a campaign

21 of persecution and terror, but that that policy came from the top of the

22 government leadership which, as the Prosecutor himself said on the

23 occasion, may even be true.

24 The main issue before us is whether the citizens of ex-Yugoslavia

25 and Bosnia-Herzegovina wanted and desired this cruel war and bloodshed

Page 8426

1 throughout their areas. They were not consulted about that, nor did they

2 decide about it. They were drawn into the furor of conflict, ordinary

3 people, workers, craftsmen, tradesmen, and as we see, waiters included.

4 They were mobilised in 1992, and this mobilisation went on round the

5 clock, after which they were deployed into various military and police

6 formations whereby they had very little choice.

7 Instead of the tools of their trade, being drafted, they were

8 issued weapons, and they took up their positions that were assigned to

9 them, as would the majority of citizens and subjects of any country in the

10 world swept by war. One such individual was Mr. Milojica Kos who was a

11 waiter and an employee in a catering establishment and was, like many

12 other inhabitants of his village, mobilised during those wartime years.

13 Your Honours, for Your Honours to be able to get a full picture of

14 one of the defendants in this courtroom, the Defence of Mr. Milojica Kos

15 will do its best during its case to demonstrate who Mr. Milojica Kos is.

16 You will, Your Honours, hear a little about the background of Mr. Milojica

17 Kos, what kind of setting he grew up in and in what kind of family.

18 Through witness testimony as well as the documents that will be produced,

19 the Defence will seek to explain that Mr. Milojica Kos is an ordinary and

20 simple man who graduated from secondary catering school at the beginning

21 of the 1980s. Until war broke out in ex-Yugoslavia and

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Milojica Kos did his job as a waiter serving guests in

23 restaurants and cafes that he was employed in for more than ten the years.

24 Your Honours, you will hear that when war began in the region of

25 Prijedor in April 1992, like the majority of other able-bodied men of age,

Page 8427

1 Mr. Milojica Kos was drafted to the reserve police force at the police

2 station department in Omarska.

3 At the beginning of May 1992, when he became a reserve policeman,

4 Mr. Milojica Kos had no experience whatsoever in the work of the reserve

5 police force. Defence witnesses or, to be more precise, some of them, by

6 conveying their personal experiences that they lived through themselves

7 and similar situations that they were found in, will explain to you, Your

8 Honours, what young reserve officers did at the beginning of the war in

9 1992 as members of certain police formations, and they will also explain

10 when the reserve police force was mobilised.

11 The witnesses will also tell Your Honours what they know, what

12 they experienced, and through those testimonies, the destiny will be able

13 to be identified of hundreds of thousands of young citizens throughout the

14 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina when the war broke out; war, a word which,

15 for those young generations, was a word without meaning in those days,

16 what that word really meant for the destiny of men.

17 Your Honours, during the Defence case of Mr. Milojica Kos, you

18 will hear when Milojica Kos acquired his initial knowledge about police

19 work, discipline, the Rules of Service, and thereby also how and when

20 Mr. Milojica Kos transferred from the reserve force to active-duty service

21 and became a junior policeman with very basic knowledge of the job

22 assigned to him as a policeman.

23 You will also hear that he had elementary knowledge as to his

24 rights and duties and thereby be in a position to gain a realistic

25 understanding of the situation of Mr. Milojica Kos in the period of June

Page 8428

1 and July 1992.

2 Your Honours, by presenting evidence - oral testimony and written

3 documents - the Defence will seek, through evidence tendered, to round off

4 the picture about Mr. Milojica Kos and try to show whether a person with

5 such a personality could have been, as I mentioned at the beginning of

6 this opening statement and as alleged in the opening statement by the

7 Prosecution, a man who had planned, advocated, ordered, instigated, aided

8 and abetted the ethnic campaign of persecution and terror as part of the

9 government's policy of persecution and ethnic cleansing in the relevant

10 area in the summer of 1992.

11 That ends my opening statement, Your Honours.

12 Before I call our first witness, I should like to notify Your

13 Honours that Mr. O'Sullivan and myself, being gentlemen, would like to

14 give our lady co-counsel, Ms. Nikolic, the chance to examine first. It

15 has been ruled by the Trial Chamber that Ms. Nikolic may be allowed to

16 examine the witness, and this document has been filed with the registry.

17 Your Honours, may we call our first witness to the courtroom?

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please,

19 Mr. Nikolic.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Nikolic, before

22 beginning, I think we can deal with a question of your documents. I don't

23 think there is any objection on the part of the Prosecution to the

24 admission of those documents.

25 MR. WAIDYARATNE: No, Your Honour.

Page 8429

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see they're confirming that,

2 no objection. In that case, the documents have been admitted.

3 And yes, we discussed this matter once, that is, the possibility

4 of Ms. Nikolic taking part in our work, and we have consulted the registry

5 about it. If there is approval by the accused, then the Chamber also

6 agrees. I have already consulted with my colleagues, but I think that

7 Ms. Nikolic has been designated legal assistant of your team, so it is up

8 to the registry to take that into account. Her status in terms of

9 remuneration does not change as a result of this. Therefore, do you have

10 any comment to make, Mr. Nikolic? I see you nodding your head.

11 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I would just like Ms. Nikolic to be

12 able to begin with the examination-in-chief of the first witness.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but you have heard the

14 conditions. We have to take that into account because Ms. Nikolic is

15 legal assistant and not co-counsel, and there is the problem of

16 remuneration.

17 But I'll give the floor Madam Registrar. Has the situation been

18 regulated from the standpoint of the registry?

19 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] From the standpoint of the

20 registry, I don't think the position has been officially regulated. It

21 has to be done as quickly as possible, but it is always up to the Chamber

22 to grant this possibility on condition that the accused agrees for the

23 legal assistant to examine.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As we already have two counsel

25 in the Defence counsel team, that is why I asked the registry. And as we

Page 8430

1 heard, the condition is that her status in terms of remuneration will not

2 change so that Ms. Nikolic may examine the witness. She is not acting as

3 co-counsel but only as legal assistant. That is simply to let you know

4 that.

5 If the accused agrees and the registry, who have given me this

6 note, and the agreement of the Chamber, then you can continue working in

7 the status that you have in this Tribunal, Ms. Nikolic.

8 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence calls the

9 first witness, Mrs. Nada Curcic.

10 [The witness entered court]

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Ms. Nada Curcic.

12 Can you hear me? Very well, thank you. Will you now please read the

13 solemn declaration that the usher is giving to you.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Could you please come a little

21 closer to the microphone. This is good.

22 Now, first of all you will be answering questions that will be put

23 to you by Ms. Nikolic whom you already know. She's standing on your

24 left-hand side.

25 You may proceed, Ms. Nikolic.

Page 8431

1 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

2 Thank you for issuing your authorisation for me to conduct the examination

3 of this witness.

4 Examined by Ms. Nikolic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Ms. Curcic.

6 A. Good morning.

7 Q. Ms. Curcic, you know who I am and in what capacity I am here.

8 Before we proceed with your testimony about the facts of the case, would

9 you please state your name for the record.

10 A. Nada Curcic.

11 Q. What is your maiden name?

12 A. Kos.

13 Q. When and where were you born?

14 A. I was born on the 25th of September, 1966.

15 Q. Where did you complete your elementary education?

16 A. In Omarska.

17 Q. Did you continue with your education after that?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. When did you complete your secondary education?

20 A. In 1986.

21 Q. What is your profession? What is your occupation today?

22 A. I am a seamstress.

23 Q. Do you have a family of your own?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Are you married?

Page 8432

1 A. Yes, I am.

2 Q. Do you have any children?

3 A. Yes, I have two children.

4 Q. Would you please tell the Chamber where you live today.

5 A. In the village of Sivnica, in the Blace municipality, in Serbia,

6 that is, in Yugoslavia.

7 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. I didn't understand her profession. Can

8 she repeat that? Seamstress?

9 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Would you please be so kind, Ms. Curcic, and tell us once again

11 what your occupation is?

12 A. I'm a seamstress.

13 Q. Okay, we understand it now. Thank you. Do you know a gentleman

14 by the name of Milojica Kos?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. How do you know him?

17 A. He's my brother.

18 Q. Where was Milojica Kos born, and when?

19 A. He was born on the 1st of April, 1963, in Lamovita.

20 Q. Did you and Milojica grow up together?

21 A. Yes, we did.

22 Q. In the family house of your parents?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Where is that house located?

25 A. In the village of Lamovita.

Page 8433

1 Q. Could you tell this Honourable Chamber something about the village

2 of Lamovita, where you grew up?

3 A. It is a very small village which is situated near Omarska.

4 Q. How far, approximately, is it from Omarska?

5 A. About 2 kilometres.

6 Q. Do you have any other brothers or sisters?

7 A. Yes, I have one more brother whose name is Miodrag.

8 Q. Does he have a family of his own?

9 A. Yes. He is no longer living with his parents. He has a family of

10 his own.

11 Q. Are either of your parents alive?

12 A. Our father is alive; our mother died in a traffic accident.

13 Q. When was that?

14 A. In 1971.

15 Q. Ms. Curcic, how old were you at the time when this accident

16 happened?

17 A. I was four years old, going on five.

18 Q. How old was your brother Kos at that time?

19 A. He was seven years old.

20 Q. When did you get married?

21 A. In 1984.

22 Q. Did you leave your parents' house after you got married?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. Where did you move to?

25 A. I moved to Sivnica, that is, to Yugoslavia, to Serbia, to the

Page 8434












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Page 8435

1 municipality of Blace.

2 Q. In order for Their Honours to understand, can you tell us how far

3 that is from Omarska?

4 A. About 700 kilometres.

5 Q. After 1984, when you left your family house, were you in contact

6 with your family and with your brother?

7 A. Yes, I was.

8 Q. In what way?

9 A. We would, first of all, call each other on the telephone. We

10 wrote to each other. I would visit them there; they would come to pay me

11 a visit.

12 Q. How often did you visit your family?

13 A. One to two times a year.

14 Q. Could you tell us where Milojica Kos went to elementary school?

15 A. In Omarska.

16 Q. After he completed his elementary education, did he continue to go

17 to school?

18 A. Yes, he did, in Prijedor.

19 Q. Do you know which school he went to in Prijedor?

20 A. Milojica went to the secondary school for catering.

21 Q. Do you remember when he completed that secondary school, if you

22 can remember?

23 A. I think that he completed it in 1981.

24 Q. What did he become then?

25 A. He became a waiter.

Page 8436

1 Q. After your education, both his and yours, after your childhood and

2 growing up together, did you socialise with young men and women of other

3 ethnic groups?

4 A. Yes. We never paid much attention to that.

5 Q. In your family, at home, what was the attitude of your father, and

6 then later on of your stepmother, to members of other ethnic groups?

7 A. We never discussed this issue of ethnic background at home.

8 Everybody was welcome in our house. We socialised with everybody;

9 everybody came to our house regardless of what ethnic community they

10 belonged to.

11 Q. Let me now briefly discuss one particular matter in relation to

12 your brother. Did he, at one point in time, start to build his own house

13 in Lamovita?

14 A. Yes, he did.

15 Q. Where in Lamovita?

16 A. On the same lot where our family houses are located.

17 Q. That lot, did it belong to your family?

18 A. Yes, it did.

19 Q. What about your other brother? Where is his house?

20 A. His house is also on the same lot.

21 Q. When did your brother start building his own house?

22 A. In 1986 or 1987.

23 Q. Did he finish it?

24 A. He just put the roof on it.

25 Q. What exactly do you mean when you say that he only put the roof on

Page 8437

1 the house?

2 A. Well, the house only has a roof in addition, of course, to the

3 outside walls.

4 Q. Can one live in that house at this point?

5 A. No.

6 Q. When did you last see that house of your brother, Milojica?

7 A. Not long ago. In January.

8 Q. What year?

9 A. This year, 2001.

10 Q. So you went to Lamovita?

11 A. Yes. I went to the Slava celebration with my father.

12 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I should like the assistance of the

13 usher at this point, please. Would you please put this photograph on the

14 ELMO. But before that, could the photograph be marked for

15 identification? According to our records, it should be Exhibit D6/2.

16 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] That is correct. The document is

17 marked for identification, D6/2.

18 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Would you please place the

19 photograph on the ELMO.

20 Q. Ms. Curcic, would you please have a look at this photograph and

21 tell us what it shows?

22 A. This is our family house, the one in which we grew up.

23 Q. And who is living in this house today?

24 A. My father and my stepmother.

25 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] The photograph can be removed from

Page 8438

1 the ELMO, Mr. Usher, thank you. And could you give us the second

2 document, please.

3 After this, I should like to ask the usher to give us the second

4 photograph which should be marked as D7/2, and to place the photograph on

5 the ELMO so that the witness can tell us what it shows.

6 Q. Ms. Curcic, do you recognise this photograph?

7 A. Yes, of course I do.

8 Q. That is, do you know what it shows?

9 A. Yes, I know. This is Milojica's house.

10 Q. Is that the house that you just described for us?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. When was it brought to the present condition?

13 A. In 1987 or 1988.

14 Q. Was anything done with the house afterwards?

15 A. No, nothing.

16 Q. Does it still look the same?

17 A. Yes, it does.

18 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. The

19 photograph can be removed.

20 Q. We have seen all these photographs. You have told us about your

21 family, your property. If you can just tell us one more piece of

22 information: What is the distance between Milojica's house, your family

23 house, and your brother's house, your other brother's house? How big is

24 that property?

25 A. Milojica's house is maybe 20 metres away from my family house

Page 8439

1 where my father and stepmother live, and my brother's house is on the same

2 lot, perhaps some 30 metres away from Milojica's house.

3 Q. Until 1992, did Milojica have any other occupation except that of

4 a waiter?

5 A. Not that I knew of. That was all he did all that time.

6 Q. Where did you live in 1991?

7 A. I lived in Sivnica in Serbia.

8 Q. You told the Judges how far that is. Now, if you can please tell

9 us how big that town is?

10 A. It's actually a very small village, not far from the town of

11 Blace, and Blace has about 5.000 inhabitants, including all surrounding

12 villages.

13 Q. Did Milojica come to visit you in that village in 1991?

14 A. Yes, he did.

15 Q. Would he stay there for a while?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What did you and Milojica do when he would come to visit you in

18 Blace?

19 A. He tried to work there. He worked for about two months, and he

20 worked as a waiter there.

21 Q. Where?

22 A. In Blace.

23 Q. Did he work in a catering establishment there?

24 A. Yes, he worked in a small cafe.

25 Q. Who worked there?

Page 8440

1 A. We both did. He worked there as a waiter, and I worked in the

2 kitchen.

3 Q. How long did you work together there?

4 A. For two months.

5 Q. Why did you stop working there?

6 A. Because the owner of the cafe increased the rent twice, so he had

7 no interest in continuing working there any more.

8 Q. After that, did Milojica stay with you in Blace?

9 A. He stayed on for a little while, and afterwards he left for

10 Lamovita.

11 Q. Do you remember when it was that Milojica left Blace, if you can

12 give us the month approximately?

13 A. It was in fall or winter 1991.

14 Q. Do you know what he did after he returned to Lamovita in Omarska?

15 A. I don't think that he had any job at the time.

16 Q. In view of the fact that you were raised together, that you grew

17 up together, you probably know your brother very well. Can you tell us

18 what kind of a young man Milojica Kos was?

19 A. He was an exceptional brother. He was a very good friend. He was

20 a quiet and composed young man. I can only say all the best about him.

21 He was always welcome in every group of people within the family, in our

22 neighbourhood. People were happy to see him around.

23 Q. Did he have many friends?

24 A. Yes, he did.

25 Q. Did he have any interests, any pursuits in his free time?

Page 8441

1 A. He was involved in all kinds of sports, jogging, for example.

2 That was what he did in his spare time.

3 Q. Did he practice any sport in particular?

4 A. Football and basketball mostly.

5 Q. What was the relationship between your brother Milojica and his

6 parents, his father and his stepmother? Did he help them, for example,

7 later in life?

8 A. He always took care of them. He was very mindful of their needs.

9 If they felt sick he was always there, around. He took very good care of

10 them.

11 Q. Was it easy for Milojica to make friends with new people?

12 A. Yes, I think it was.

13 Q. What was the attitude that people had towards him while you were

14 growing up together and later on when you would visit each other for

15 family celebrations?

16 A. Everybody had a very good opinion about him. Everybody liked

17 him. I don't know of any problems that he would have had with anyone.

18 Q. Was Milojica interested in politics and political events?

19 A. No, never. He never discussed politics. He was never interested

20 in them, he would never let us discuss it during our get-togethers.

21 Q. Why?

22 A. He was simply not interested in that.

23 Q. Did he go out at night to cafes, restaurants?

24 A. Yes, he did.

25 Q. Did he ever have a fight? Did he ever quarrel with people when he

Page 8442

1 went out?

2 A. No, I never heard of any such thing involving him.

3 Q. And one final question: Could you briefly describe for the Judges

4 the temperament and the character of your brother?

5 A. My brother is a very quiet, level-headed man, always willing to

6 help others, a person who never had any problems whatsoever with other

7 people.

8 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you very much.

9 This concludes my examination of this witness.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

11 Ms. Nikolic.

12 Mr. Waidyaratne. Ms. Curcic, you will now be answering questions

13 that will be put to you by the counsel for the Prosecution,

14 Mr. Waidyaratne.

15 Mr. Waidyaratne, your witness.

16 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:

18 Q. Good morning, Ms. Curcic. Ms. Curcic, you spoke in detail about

19 your brother, and you said that he was a good brother, a good friend, and

20 a fine man. What about your other brother, Miodrag, where is he?

21 A. He is in Lamovita.

22 Q. Did he help the family too, or was it only Milojica who helped the

23 family?

24 A. Yes, but not as much as Milojica, because he got married very

25 young and had a family of his own, he had children, so he didn't have as

Page 8443

1 much opportunity to help his family as Milojica did.

2 Q. So Milojica was very close to your family, especially the father

3 and the stepmother; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, very close.

5 Q. Mrs. Curcic, you spoke about Milojica, about his education. Do

6 you remember whether he served in the military, whether he did his

7 compulsory military service?

8 A. Yes, like everybody else, like all our young men.

9 Q. During that time, do you know that he was based in Skopje?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you remember during which year that was?

12 A. After he completed his secondary education, in 1982, 1983.

13 Q. Did he discuss what he did during the time that he served in the

14 military?

15 A. As far as I can recall, I think that he was a cook there.

16 Q. Did he say that he had training in the use of weapons, that he

17 underwent training? Did he say that he served in the infantry?

18 A. I don't think -- no, he didn't discuss it in my presence.

19 Q. So you don't know as to whether he was a cook or whether he served

20 in the infantry, which gave him training in the use of weapons and other

21 equipment?

22 A. I know that he once told me or wrote to me that he was working in

23 a kitchen as a cook.

24 Q. Mrs. Curcic, about your family, about your stepmother, how was

25 she? When did she come into the family?

Page 8444

1 A. I was very small at the time, very young, when she came, and as

2 far as I can remember and according to what other people told me, I think

3 that it was a year or two years after the death of our mother.

4 Q. So you had known your stepmother for quite a long time, from your

5 small days.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What is the physical condition of her? Did she suffer from any

8 illness?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did Milojica say, during the time of 1990, 1991, whether she had

11 to see a doctor, whether she was suffering from any illness?

12 A. Yes. She had an open fracture of her leg at that time.

13 Q. Did Milojica say that he took good care of her, that he took her

14 to see the doctors in Prijedor?

15 A. Yes, yes, she was in hospital there and I visited her there

16 myself.

17 Q. Did you know the doctor who treated her, your stepmother?

18 A. No, I did not, because I had come from Serbia for two or three

19 days just to see her, to see how she was. But he was the one who took

20 care of her, about the doctor and everything else that needed to be done

21 or obtained. After that, after my visit, I went back to Serbia.

22 Q. Did Milojica mention the name of Dr. Begic to you during that time

23 as a person who treated your stepmother?

24 A. No, no. We spoke about her condition, about how she felt at the

25 moment, what other things needed to be done, but we didn't talk about the

Page 8445












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Page 8446

1 doctor.

2 Q. When you were in the hospital, when you went to the hospital, did

3 you meet any doctors there? Did any doctor by the name of Dr. Begic meet

4 you?

5 A. No. I was visiting only during those hours when visits were

6 allowed, and usually doctors do not walk around the hospital during those

7 hours. I talked to my stepmother, to my brother, to whoever happened to

8 be visiting at the time, but I didn't talk to any of the doctors.

9 Q. Mrs. Curcic, I will come to the year of 1992. Did you know as to

10 where Milojica worked in 1992, in the month of April?

11 A. No. In 1992, in January of this year, I was at my parents, at the

12 Slava, the patron saint's day celebration. He was at home and he was not

13 working at the time.

14 Q. Just referring to the month of January 1992, did you know what he

15 was doing, what Milojica was doing in 1992, May, in the month of May?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you see him after you saw him in January 1992, during the

18 period of May, June, July, and August of 1992?

19 A. No.

20 Q. After you met him in January 1992, when was the last time that you

21 met him after that, after you met him in January 1992?

22 A. I saw him in January 1992 for the last time in 1992, and then we

23 maintained contact on the telephone. After that, I did not see him in

24 1992 because the war broke out in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25 Q. So when did you see him -- other than the telephone contact you

Page 8447

1 had in the year 1992, when did you see him then, after that, after January

2 1992?

3 A. I saw him in 1993, again in January, again for the patron saint's

4 day celebration, when I went for a family visit there.

5 Q. That was in Omarska, in Lamovita?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, Mrs. Curcic, you said that you spoke to him over the phone,

8 you had telephone contact. Did you ask him as to what he was doing in the

9 months of May to August 1992? Did he tell you where he was working?

10 A. When the war broke out in Bosnia, of course I inquired what -- how

11 my family was doing, what was going on. He told me that he had been

12 mobilised, that he became a member of the reserve police force and that he

13 was on duty in Omarska.

14 Q. Now, you knew -- he told you that he was a reserve policeman and

15 was mobilised in 1992. When you said Omarska, did he specifically say a

16 specific place he was assigned to? Did he say that he was working in the

17 Omarska camp?

18 A. No. These were telephone conversations. I inquired, and it was a

19 regular kind of inquiry, I wanted to know the information, and my

20 information was that he was a police officer at Omarska.

21 Q. Now, Mrs. Curcic, you would have not discussed that. But then

22 after you met him, did you ask him about the time that he spent in the

23 Omarska camp?

24 A. We never talked much about those activities. I don't know how to

25 phrase it. He never specifically told me where -- I cannot ...

Page 8448

1 Q. You're trying to say that you didn't discuss the activities during

2 that time, but he was a brother who was close to you. Did you ask him as

3 to how he survived or what he -- how the times that he spent during these

4 difficult times, especially during the month of May 1992? I'm sorry to

5 ask you this question again, so you never discussed or he never told you

6 as to what he did in the Omarska camp?

7 A. No, because even if I asked him this, he said that he preferred

8 not to talk about it. Also because I was -- I had an illness when I was

9 small, so he was trying to spare me, not to bring up certain subjects.

10 Q. You said that he preferred not to speak about the time that he

11 spent in the Omarska camp. Did you know that there was a camp in Omarska,

12 a detention camp?

13 A. I knew that there was an investigation centre there.

14 Q. Did you learn as to what, who -- what happened there, as to who

15 was detained there?

16 A. Specifically, no, because in that period I did not go to Omarska,

17 and we spoke about that very little.

18 Q. Was there any good reason for you not to -- prefer not to speak

19 about this time that Milojica spent in the Omarska?

20 A. I think I've already told you that he did not like to talk about

21 this. In fact, he doesn't talk much at all. And because of my illness,

22 he knew that I could get upset, and that was probably the reason.

23 Q. Mrs. Curcic, I'm sorry, I have to ask you another question which

24 is a little bit unclear to me. The summary which was provided to the

25 Prosecution by the Defence says that you are an administration officer.

Page 8449

1 Did you do any work in the administration?

2 A. I don't understand.

3 Q. A summary which has been provided by your counsels to the

4 Prosecution says that you are an administration officer.

5 A. I do not understand.

6 Q. Have you worked as an administration officer during your -- at any

7 time?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Thank you. Mrs. Curcic, another small area I need to ask you

10 about. By the way, the time that you spent in Lamovita and you said that

11 you subsequently moved to Sivnica in Serbia, but at the time you spent

12 with your brother, did you get to know any persons by the name of Miroslav

13 Kvocka?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When was that?

16 A. When I was very small, when I passed by his parents' house I would

17 see him and I would say hello. That was it.

18 Q. Was that in Omarska? He was in, if I may, the neighbourhood; is

19 that correct? He was a person from the area?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you know when he became -- after he became a police officer?

22 A. I did know him, but it never went beyond greeting each other,

23 that's all.

24 Q. Did he visit your brother when he was a police officer, the time

25 that you knew?

Page 8450

1 A. No. I do not remember.

2 Q. Do you know whether your brother knew Miroslav Kvocka?

3 A. In the same way that I did.

4 Q. Did you know a person by the name of Mladen Radic, another

5 policeman from the Omarska?

6 A. No.

7 Q. One Mr. Zoran Zigic?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Mr. Prcac, another police officer?

10 A. Yes, but also just by greetings.

11 Q. And this was prior to the conflict in 1992?

12 A. That was up until 1984 when I left Lamovita and moved to Serbia.

13 Q. Mrs. Curcic, I will take you to another area. Did you meet your

14 brother in 1994?

15 A. Yes, after 1992 -- that is, 1993, I saw him regularly, and

16 "regularly" meant two to three times a year.

17 Q. That was the time, if -- am I correct, the time that he was a

18 policeman in Banja Luka, an active policeman?

19 A. I don't know that.

20 Q. Did you know that he became an active policeman?

21 A. Yes. Later, though, after he had been in the reserve police. I

22 knew that he attended a course, but I don't know -- I didn't ask whether

23 then that made him an active-duty policeman.

24 Q. Do you now know that he was an active policeman in 1994?

25 A. Whether it was in 1994 or when, I really don't know.

Page 8451

1 Q. But do you know that he was an active policeman?

2 A. I know that he attended a course.

3 Q. Mrs. Curcic, did you -- when did you get to know that he was

4 indicted of war crimes?

5 A. When I read it in the paper.

6 Q. I'm sorry, I have to ask you: Could you remember as to when,

7 which year that was?

8 A. I do not remember.

9 Q. If I said that the indictment was publicised in 1995, February,

10 will you accept that?

11 A. I do not remember.

12 Q. Do you know when Mr. Milojica Kos was arrested?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When was that?

15 A. On 27 March -- 27 May 1998.

16 Q. In the year of 1998. So since -- from the time of, say, year 1995

17 and 1998, did you meet Milojica Kos during that period, your brother?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did he tell you that he has been indicted? Did you discuss about

20 the indictment?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What did he say?

23 A. That he did not consider himself guilty in any way, that this must

24 be a mistake, and that he could not comprehend it.

25 Q. Did he -- did you propose to him or did he want to surrender?

Page 8452

1 A. I never proposed that to him, nor did he ever tell me anything

2 about his wish to surrender or something like that.

3 Q. Did he lose his police status during this time, from the time

4 that -- 1995 until the arrest in 1998?

5 A. I don't know.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Waidyaratne, the witness said that she only

7 knew that he made a training course only, so that is it.


9 Q. Can I ask you whether you knew as to what your brother was doing

10 from the year 1995 to the time of his arrest?

11 A. I know that he was in Banja Luka; that occasionally he worked in

12 coffee bars and that that is how he made his livelihood.

13 Q. Mrs. Curcic, I will ask you some little details about your

14 brother. During the time that he worked in the reserve police in Omarska,

15 did you know as to what his salary was, what remuneration he had?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did he, at any time, provide you with financial assistance?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did you know as to whether he supported his family, his father and

20 his stepmother, financially?

21 A. He provided assistance, of course. He bought whatever they

22 needed.

23 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Please bear with me, Your Honour.

24 [Prosecution counsel confer]


Page 8453

1 Q. Mrs. Curcic, you said that your brother was a person who was

2 involved in -- a happy man who was involved in sports but not involved in

3 politics. If you know, do you know as to whether he had a tattoo engraved

4 in his left arm?

5 A. Yes. He still has that tattoo.

6 Q. Do you remember what it is, if you remember?

7 A. Two hearts and two letters, so far as I remember.

8 Q. Do you remember the two letters that were there? You would have

9 seen it for a long time. If you remember.

10 A. My apologies. I think it's a "J" and then an "N," something like

11 that.

12 Q. It's two letters, "J" and "N"; am I correct? Am I getting the

13 translation?

14 A. I am not sure.

15 Q. Mrs. Curcic, Milojica is not married.

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did he have a girlfriend that you knew?

18 A. Yes, there were girls in his life. I may have known one or two

19 but superficially only.

20 Q. Do you remember their names?

21 A. One was named Katarina; another one, Dragana.

22 Q. Have you, by any chance -- have you had the chance of hearing the

23 name Edna?

24 A. No.

25 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Please bear with me, Your Honour.

Page 8454

1 [Prosecution counsel confer]

2 MR. WAIDYARATNE: That concludes my cross-examination, Your

3 Honour. Thank you.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

5 Mr. Waidyaratne.

6 Ms. Nikolic, any re-examination?

7 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Just one, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Go ahead, please.

9 Re-examined by Ms. Nikolic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Curcic, what was the secondary school that

11 you completed?

12 A. The school of economics.

13 Q. What title did you get after that?

14 A. It was an administrative worker.

15 Q. Does that mean that you were an administrative worker?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What is your profession now?

18 A. I am a seamstress.

19 Q. This is what you do?

20 A. Yes.

21 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Have you finished, Ms. Nikolic?

23 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Judge Fouad Riad, do you have any questions?

Page 8455

1 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] No, thank you, Mr. President. No

2 questions.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Judge Wald.

4 Questioned by the Court:

5 JUDGE WALD: Mrs. Curcic, I just have two small questions. One,

6 did you have anybody in your acquaintance back in Lamovita or Omarska who

7 had been detained in the Omarska camp? Did you know anybody who had been

8 there as a detainee?

9 A. No.

10 JUDGE WALD: On your visits back to Lamovita after 1992, did

11 anyone ever speak to you about your brother having been in the Omarska

12 camp or anything he might have done while he was there?

13 A. No.

14 JUDGE WALD: Okay. My last question is: You said that when the

15 indictment came down, your brother said it was a mistake and he didn't

16 know how that could have happened. At that time, did he say anything else

17 about what his role was in the camp or what he actually did in the camp or

18 anything that happened in the camp, when he was talking about it being a

19 mistake, in his view, that he was indicted?

20 A. No. He only said, "This is impossible and this is a mistake."

21 JUDGE WALD: That's all?

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE WALD: Okay, thank you.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam Judge

25 Wald.

Page 8456












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 8457

1 Mrs. Curcic, I have two questions, small questions, for you. I

2 believe that you said that since January 1992 until January 1993, you

3 contacted your brother by phone and that he told you at the time that he

4 was on duty in Omarska. Did I understand you correctly?

5 A. Yes, he told me -- when I called him up and when I asked him,

6 after the war had started and the mobilisation and all those things, I

7 asked him where they were and if everybody was alive. When I talked to

8 him, he told me that he had been mobilised as a reserve police officer in

9 Omarska and that that's where he was.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But what did you understand him

11 to mean by telling you that?

12 A. At that moment, nothing specific.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You weren't concerned? Didn't

14 this prompt you to say, "Aren't you at the Omarska Police Station," or

15 something like that?

16 A. That was my understanding when he said that he was a member of the

17 reserve police force in Omarska, because there was a single precinct there

18 and that that's where he was.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As far as you know, was there a

20 police station in Omarska at the time or not?

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another question. You said that

23 after January 1993 you didn't speak too much about Omarska, you didn't say

24 too much. When you mentioned Omarska, what does it imply to you? When

25 you said here that you didn't discuss Omarska much, what exactly did you

Page 8458

1 mean? I'm talking about January 1993.

2 A. The question was in reference to Omarska specifically, and we

3 talked very little about the war and we really did not discuss that topic

4 much at all.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but when you said that you

6 didn't discuss Omarska much, which Omarska were you referring to?

7 A. I don't understand.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let me explain, then. He was on

9 duty in Omarska, that is what you heard on the phone, and you said you

10 thought of Omarska and him being in the police reserve force, and you also

11 said that there was a police station in Omarska. But in January 1993 you

12 said that you discussed Omarska very slightly, but when you said Omarska,

13 was it a village, a police station, a tourist resort? What was it?

14 A. When I was in Omarska in January 1993 I attended the patron

15 saint's celebration, and many people came through the house so that we did

16 not have time to discuss any other matters. There were many friends,

17 relatives, and the conversations were the usual daily ones.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry for interrupting you,

19 Mrs. Curcic, but he said he preferred not to talk about "it." What was it

20 that he didn't like to talk about, what subject?

21 A. He is not a man of many words, so he doesn't discuss anything

22 much.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you said that he preferred

24 not to explain things to you, so you don't know what it is that he didn't

25 want to tell you about. Is that right?

Page 8459

1 A. I never even asked him.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very good. Do you know whether

3 he discussed this subject that he avoided discussing with you, did he

4 discuss it with other persons?

5 A. I don't know.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. So, Mrs. Curcic,

7 that completes your testimony. Yes, I see I didn't ask the other Defence

8 counsel whether they have any questions for this witness, so Mr. Fila.

9 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you.

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Fila:

11 Q. [Interpretation] First off, Mr. Waidyaratne asked the witness

12 whether she knew a person by the name of Mladen Radic. If this is some

13 person that Mr. Waidyaratne is interested in, that is fine; but if this is

14 in reference to the accused, that is not the accused's name. That is

15 number one.

16 The second thing I want to ask is whether the lady can distinguish

17 between the, the Omarska Police Station and the Omarska Police Station

18 Department. Does she make -- does she distinguish between these two?

19 A. No.

20 Q. My next question is, then, would she know whether there was a

21 police station there or a department of the police station there?

22 A. I really don't know the official title of it.

23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] That completes my question.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne, you have any

25 other questions, perhaps?

Page 8460

1 MR. WAIDYARATNE: No, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So Mrs. Curcic, this really is

3 the end of your testimony. Thank you very much for coming here, and I

4 shall ask the usher to accompany you out. Thank you very much.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 [The witness withdrew]

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry? Yes?

8 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] That exactly is what I wanted to

9 suggest, that we should take a break before we call the next witness.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. We welcome your

11 suggestion, Ms. Nikolic, so we're going to have a half-hour break now.

12 --- Recess taken at 10.59 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated. Yes,

15 Ms. Nikolic.

16 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before we call our

17 next witness, could D6/2 and D7/2 which have been marked for

18 identification by the registry to be admitted into evidence, please. We

19 should like to tender those two documents.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Nikolic. Nothing

21 appears in the transcript as yet, though we heard what you said. I think

22 it is beginning to work again. Yes.

23 If I understood you correctly, Ms. Nikolic, you are asking for

24 Exhibits D6/2 and D7/2 to be admitted into evidence.

25 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 8461

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne? No.

2 Therefore, the documents are admitted into evidence, Ms. Nikolic, so

3 please proceed.

4 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. The

5 Defence now calls our next witness, Milan Babic.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Milan Babic.

8 Can you hear me?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. I can

10 hear you.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You're now going to read the

12 solemn declaration given to you by the usher.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you for coming. First you

20 will be answering questions put to you by the Defence counsel for Mr. Kos,

21 that is, by Ms. Jelena Nikolic.

22 You have the floor, madam.

23 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

24 Examined by Ms. Nikolic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Babic, for identification purposes, will you

Page 8462

1 tell us your particulars? Your name first.

2 A. My name is Milan Babic.

3 Q. The date of your birth?

4 A. 23rd of October, 1971, in Bistrica.

5 Q. Where is Bistrica?

6 A. In Prijedor municipality.

7 Q. Where did you complete your elementary education?

8 A. In Lamovita, and my secondary education in Prijedor.

9 Q. What secondary school did you attend?

10 A. The secondary school of mechanical engineering.

11 Q. What was your occupation upon graduation?

12 A. A metal worker.

13 Q. What is your occupation today?

14 A. I'm a policeman.

15 Q. Where are you employed?

16 A. In the Special Police service of Banja Luka.

17 Q. What kind of jobs do you do?

18 A. I'm leader of a team for the use of official dogs.

19 Q. Do you collaborate with any United Nations agencies in your work?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. With which?

22 A. IPTF and the UNHCR.

23 Q. Before the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992, where were you

24 living and working?

25 A. I was living in Bistrica, and I was working in Banja Luka.

Page 8463

1 Q. What was your work post in 1992?

2 A. I was working in the Vrbas building construction enterprise as a

3 woodworker.

4 Q. Have you done your military service?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When and where?

7 A. I served in Sibenik and Pula in 1990, 1991.

8 Q. Do you know a person called Milojica Kos?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you know Milojica Kos before the war in 1992?

11 A. Only by sight, when we would pass each other on the street.

12 Q. For how long did you know Mr. Kos in that way prior to 1992?

13 A. From 1988 until 1990.

14 Q. Do you know what he was by occupation at the end of the 1980s?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What was he?

17 A. He was a waiter.

18 Q. How do you know that?

19 A. I would see him in various coffee bars serving guests.

20 Q. In Omarska?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Mr. Babic, let us go back briefly to 1992 and the outbreak of

23 conflicts in the area. Where were you when the war started in Bosnia in

24 1992?

25 A. I was in the reserve police force.

Page 8464

1 Q. Were you mobilised?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Where?

4 A. To the reserve police station in Lamovita.

5 Q. How were people drafted to the reserve forces?

6 A. In my case, I was mobilised because I had served in the navy. I

7 didn't have a military assignment so they drafted me to the reserve police

8 force.

9 Q. Did you undergo any police training?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you have any experience as a reserve policeman?

12 A. No.

13 Q. In those days, were only young reservists mobilised to the reserve

14 police force?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Were older reservists also mobilised?

17 A. Yes, they were.

18 Q. What does an older reservist actually mean?

19 A. They were people who were reservists before the war, who had five

20 or ten years of experience or more.

21 Q. Mr. Babic, please feel free to explain what you mean when talking

22 about the experience of a reserve policeman.

23 A. It meant that before the war, he would have seminars, training

24 exercises in handling weapons and familiarisation with police rules -

25 these exercises would be held once or twice a year - whereas young reserve

Page 8465

1 police officers had no training or lectures or seminars that they had

2 attended before that.

3 Q. I'm not quite sure whether I have already asked you this, but in

4 what month of 1992 were you mobilised?

5 A. At the end of April.

6 Q. Where did you spend the period after mobilisation in April of

7 1992?

8 A. I was a member of the reserve police force.

9 Q. And where was it located?

10 A. We were assigned to providing security of the transmitter at Mount

11 Kozara and the surrounding villages.

12 Q. What was your actual duty at the time?

13 A. We patrolled the settlements and provided security for the

14 transmitter repeater.

15 Q. Who was your immediate superior in that period of time?

16 A. The station commander.

17 Q. What station did you belong to?

18 A. The police station at Lamovita.

19 Q. Was it a permanent standing police station?

20 A. No.

21 Q. What was it at the time?

22 A. It was a reserve police station.

23 Q. Were there any more experienced police officers with you young

24 reservists?

25 A. Yes, there was one.

Page 8466

1 Q. How old was he?

2 A. Over 50.

3 Q. Was he a reservist or an active-duty policeman?

4 A. He was a reservist with experience as a reserve police officer

5 before the war.

6 Q. To the best of your knowledge, how much experience did he have as

7 a reserve policeman before the outbreak of conflicts?

8 A. More than ten years' experience.

9 Q. What were his tasks and duties, if you remember?

10 A. To coordinate the work of us reserve police officers; to assign us

11 to work according to schedule. Nothing more than that.

12 Q. When did you leave the reserve police station at Lamovita?

13 A. On the 1st of November -- no, on the first of November, 1992.

14 Q. Will you explain to Your Honours how that came about and why?

15 A. There was a vacancy in the police station for the admission of

16 policemen to a special purpose unit in Banja Luka.

17 Q. When did you meet Milojica Kos again?

18 A. On the way to Banja Luka on November the 1st.

19 Q. You applied for that job that was announced as a vacancy. Did you

20 ever complete a training course for a policeman?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you tell us when?

23 A. From mid-January until the beginning of June, 1993.

24 Q. Did Milojica Kos ever complete a police training school; do you

25 know?

Page 8467












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 8468

1 A. Yes, after me.

2 Q. Do you know where?

3 A. In Banja Luka.

4 Q. Within the framework of the same institution or not?

5 A. Yes, within the framework of the same institution.

6 Q. Do you remember what were the requirements for somebody to apply

7 for that job and to be admitted?

8 A. The requirements were completed secondary education, under 30

9 years of age, a certificate that there were no criminal charges or

10 proceedings against one, and a medical certificate.

11 Q. What prompted you to apply for this job?

12 A. It was also stated in the notification that we would be attending

13 a course for active-duty policemen in Banja Luka.

14 Q. How long did that course last?

15 A. It was a six-month course.

16 Q. Could you explain to the Judges what it was like, what you were

17 taught?

18 A. Three months of theoretical training and lectures, and three

19 months of practical work in the police station.

20 Q. Did you have to sit for a final examination at the end of this

21 training course for policemen?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How long did that examination last?

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises, she didn't hear the

25 answer to that question, how long did the exam last.

Page 8469

1 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Let me repeat the question.

2 Q. How long was the final examination after you completed the course?

3 A. Two days.

4 Q. Do you know who issued the certificate or diploma at the end of

5 your course, and describe it if you can remember?

6 A. It was issued by the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Republika

7 Srpska, that is, the secondary school for Internal Affairs in Banja Luka.

8 The certificate is A4 in format, and it says, "Certificate On the

9 Completion of the Police Course." It contains the particulars of the

10 student, when the course began, and when it was completed.

11 Q. Very well.

12 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher for

13 his assistance to bring me Exhibit D5/2, and to show it to the witness,

14 please. The Trial Chamber have copies, and my learned friends from the

15 Prosecution as well.

16 Could you please place the original on the ELMO and then he will

17 be able to explain to Their Honours what it is.

18 Q. Mr. Babic, you have looked at the document in front of you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. After the completion of your course, did you receive such a

21 certificate, a similar certificate?

22 A. I did.

23 Q. How does this document in front of you differ from the one you

24 received in 1993?

25 A. The difference is the name and the particulars of the student, and

Page 8470

1 the duration also.

2 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I don't need

3 the document any more, you can collect it.

4 Q. When you completed your course, Mr. Babic what was your title?

5 A. I acquired the title of an active-duty policeman, a beginner, an

6 apprentice, an intern, an intern, a police intern.

7 Q. Did you start working, and did you have to go through an

8 internship or not?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Upon the completion of this course and when you acquired your

11 diploma, did you get any rank?

12 A. Yes [as interpreted].

13 Q. While attending this course and lectures, were you familiarised

14 for the first time with the laws in force at the time in

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina and Republika Srpska?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. My colleague tells me that there's an error in the transcript, so

18 allow me to repeat the question. After completing your course for a

19 policeman and after you acquired your diploma, were you given a rank?

20 A. No.

21 Q. While attending that course, was that the first time you were

22 familiarised with the rights and duties of policemen, the rules of

23 service, the organisation of the police?

24 A. Yes.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be asked to speak up, please.

Page 8471

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne.

2 MR. WAIDYARATNE: That's a very clear leading question by

3 Ms. Nikolic at this stage, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Nikolic, please

5 rephrase your question.

6 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I'll do that. That's easy

7 enough.

8 Q. Mr. Babic, will you please tell us what subjects you studied at

9 the course?

10 A. The Rules of Service, criminal law, material law, administrative

11 law, physical education, traffic regulations, et cetera.

12 Q. According to the training you had then and the experience as a

13 policeman now, can you tell us whether a reserve policeman has any

14 position?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Does he have any command responsibility?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Does a reserve policeman have any persons subordinated to him?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Can a reserve policeman be called in to do active duty?

21 A. No. Only under very exceptional and specific circumstances.

22 Q. Could you explain to Their Honours what those specific

23 circumstances could be?

24 A. Should there be a shortage of personnel, a reserve policeman had

25 to have higher education and could then get a job should there be a

Page 8472

1 vacancy, but only in the administration.

2 Q. As far as you are aware, a new recruit, a reserve policeman, can

3 he be asked to do active duty?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Please be kind enough to clear up what you mean by "higher

6 education," according to our educational system, to explain to everybody

7 in the courtroom what we mean.

8 A. It had to be at least two years of post-secondary education at a

9 university or at a higher educational institution.

10 Q. In the course of your stay in Banja Luka and while attending this

11 course, did you have any contact with Milojica Kos?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How often were the two of you together in 1992/1993?

14 A. On a daily basis. We worked together and, for a time, we shared a

15 room.

16 Q. Did you socialise in your free time?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I apologise, Mr. Babic, but please move up to the microphone so

19 that the interpreters can hear you better. Thank you.

20 Did you socialise with him in your free time?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. When you met in 1992, as you described, on your way to Banja Luka,

23 did you know what he was at the time and whether he worked in the police?

24 A. I knew that he was a reserve police officer.

25 Q. How did you know that?

Page 8473

1 A. All of us who underwent that course, who had applied for the job,

2 were reserve police officers.

3 Q. As a man who spent a period of his life socialising with Milojica

4 Kos, can you tell us what kind of man he is? How would you describe him?

5 A. He is very withdrawn, but he is also sociable at the same time.

6 He always liked people. He liked everybody. He socialised with

7 everyone.

8 Q. Do you know whether he ever expressed any political views?

9 A. No, he didn't.

10 Q. Was he a member of any political party?

11 A. I don't know that.

12 Q. Were police officers able to be members of political parties?

13 A. No.

14 Q. What was usually the topic of your discussions?

15 A. We talked about the good old times before the war, what we did

16 before and what was the situation now. We talked about private problems,

17 about friends, families, about problems we had with feeding ourselves,

18 providing for our family, and things like that.

19 Q. When you were together, when you talked to each other, did

20 Milojica Kos ever express his opinion about other ethnic groups?

21 A. No, he didn't.

22 Q. Did he ever show signs of any ethnic hatred or lack of tolerance?

23 A. No, never.

24 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Babic.

25 Thank you, Your Honours. I have completed the examination-in-chief of

Page 8474

1 this witness.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you very much.

3 Any other Defence counsel who wish to examine the witness? No?

4 Thank you.

5 Mr. Waidyaratne, your witness.

6 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Cross-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:

8 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Babic.

9 A. Good afternoon.

10 Q. Mr. Babic, could you tell me your father's name, please?

11 A. Momir.

12 Q. And your mother?

13 A. Milena.

14 Q. You said that you were born in Bistrica, am I correct, in the

15 Prijedor municipality?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How far is it from Lamovita?

18 A. Between 7 and 8 kilometres.

19 Q. Did you know Mr. Milojica Kos during your childhood?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Am I correct if I say that you saw him sometimes when he was in

22 Omarska, but other than that, you had no relationship with him until you

23 got to know him in 1992, when you went to Banja Luka? Am I correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Mr. Babic, do you have any nicknames? Are you called by the name

Page 8475

1 of Babi?

2 A. I don't understand your question. Could you repeat it, please?

3 Q. Do you have any other names?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Mr. Babic, do you know that Mr. Kos has a house in Lamovita?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did he speak about that house when he was put up with you in Banja

8 Luka?

9 A. He mentioned a few times that he had started building a house

10 before the war but that he stopped.

11 Q. Have you seen it?

12 A. Yes, in the past three years; that is, three years ago I saw it.

13 Q. Mr. Babic, today to come to the Tribunal, you left Banja Luka; am

14 I correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What is the address where you live, where do you live in Banja

17 Luka?

18 A. Omladinska Street, house number 87.

19 Q. Is it correct if I say that it is a house of Mr. Kos?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Kos has a house in Banja Luka?

22 A. He was only using a state-owned apartment who was given to the

23 Ministry of the Internal Affairs by municipal authorities.

24 Q. So he had a flat or an annex or house in Banja Luka; am I

25 correct?

Page 8476

1 A. He had the right to use the flat.

2 Q. Did you live with Mr. Kos in the same house?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Now, Mr. Babic the time that you spent with Mr. Kos, you said that

5 he used to discuss, other than politics, about other matters. Did he

6 mention anything about the time that he spent at the Omarska camp in 1992?

7 A. No.

8 Q. He never spoke with you or discussed with you about the times that

9 he spent as a reserve policeman in the Omarska camp? Is that what you're

10 saying?

11 A. Yes. He told me that he was a reserve police officer, but not

12 where he worked and what he did.

13 Q. Well, Mr. Babic, now in 1992 you said that you were attached to --

14 you were mobilised?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Attached to the Lamovita police station, am I correct?

17 A. Yes. The reserve station of -- the reserve police station in

18 Lamovita.

19 Q. Now, this reserve police station in Lamovita, what are the areas

20 that this police station covered?

21 A. It covered the settlements in the area of Gornja Lamovita, the

22 village of Bistrica. That's it.

23 Q. Did it cover the area of Kamicani?

24 A. I don't understand your question.

25 Q. Did it cover the village of Babici?

Page 8477

1 A. Yes. That village is part of Lamovita.

2 Q. So what are the villages, if I may ask you much clearly, that was

3 covered by the Lamovita police station?

4 A. Babici, Perici, Stojakovici, and the village of Bistrica, which

5 included Gornja Bistrica and Donja Bistrica.

6 Q. Did it cover the village of Verici?

7 A. No, not Verici. They didn't fall under the area of the Lamovita

8 police station.

9 Q. You said that you were assigned to during 1992, to protect the

10 transmitter in Mount Kozarac. Did Lamovita cover that area, too, or was

11 it due to the special assignment that was given to your unit that you had

12 to go to Mount Kozarac?

13 A. No. It was part of the area which was covered by the Lamovita

14 police station.

15 Q. So that means Mount Kozarac, a certain part of mount Kozarac also

16 comes under Lamovita?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Who are the others who were in the special unit with you?

19 A. I don't understand.

20 Q. I can repeat it. Can you remember the other personnel who was

21 with you in the special unit that was doing duty with you during 1992?

22 A. Are you referring to the transmitter on the Kozara mount?

23 Q. Yes, we'll start there.

24 A. It was not the special unit which was involved there, but I do

25 remember some of the people.

Page 8478












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 8479

1 Q. Could you tell us the names of those people that you remember?

2 A. Yes, I can do that.

3 Q. Please.

4 A. Radenko Kukic, Mirko Milicevic, Slobodan Milicevic, Ljubo Paspalj,

5 Jovan Paspalj, Milenko Macanovic.

6 Q. Was there a person by the name of Dragan Babic with you?

7 A. I don't know. Not in the area which we covered, that is, the

8 transmitter and the surrounding villages, that is, the area which

9 stretches on towards Banja Luka.

10 Q. Now, Mr. Babic, what, exactly did you do when you say that you

11 gave security to the transmitter? Why was it necessary during that time?

12 A. We had an order to that effect from the police station; that is,

13 to provide security for the transmitter and to patrol the surrounding

14 villages.

15 Q. Who gave you that order?

16 A. The commander of the station.

17 Q. Who was the commander of the station?

18 A. Grahovac.

19 Q. Is it Ljuban?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did he specifically say as to what you all should do when you go

22 on this assignment?

23 A. Just provide security.

24 Q. What uniforms did you wear, did you wear?

25 A. I can't remember. A police uniform, because uniforms changed.

Page 8480

1 Q. Right. Did you change your uniform subsequently?

2 A. What do you mean "subsequently"?

3 Q. As a police officer. From the answer that you gave me earlier,

4 you seem to have changed the uniforms. Did you change your uniform

5 subsequently when you were serving in the Lamovita police station?

6 A. No. I'm really sorry, but I don't understand your question.

7 Q. Did you by any chance wear an olive-grey uniform during the time

8 that you were providing security duty at Mount Kozarac?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What is this uniform? Could you tell the Chamber as to what this

11 uniform is?

12 A. It was a multicoloured, that is, camouflage, uniform.

13 Q. And that was other than the police uniform that you generally wore

14 as a reserve policeman?

15 A. Because we didn't have adequate uniforms, we wore insignia on our

16 shoulders, and the insignia were those of a reserve police officer.

17 Q. And a camouflage/multicoloured uniform?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Mr. Babic, were you, at any time, attached to the 16th Krajina

20 Brigade of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Now, the time that you went on -- we will cover this area

23 quickly. The time that you went on this guard duty, you were provided

24 with a weapon.

25 A. Yes.

Page 8481

1 Q. What kind of weapon did you carry?

2 A. M-48 rifles.

3 Q. That's an automatic?

4 A. No, semiautomatic. No, no, not even semiautomatic, but it was

5 a --

6 Q. During the time that you served the military, in the navy, you had

7 training with -- weapon training.

8 A. As a member of the navy, I had very little training of that kind.

9 Q. But you know how to shoot and how to use a gun.

10 A. I know.

11 Q. Well, Mr. Babic, did you, during the time that you served in

12 Lamovita, at any time, cover the area of Tukovi, in the month of July?

13 A. No.

14 Q. During this time, did you also -- were you assigned to or were you

15 mobilised in the area of Ljubija?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Mr. Babic, the time that you spent in -- provided security to

18 Mount Kozarac, did you see the surrounding areas, as to what happened in

19 those areas?

20 A. We didn't.

21 Q. How about the houses, the people who lived there?

22 A. I don't know. We just heard sounds.

23 Q. Mr. Babic, are you trying to tell the Chamber that during this

24 time that you served in the Lamovita Police Station, that you did not know

25 or you didn't see as to what happened in the areas of Kozarac, Kamicani?

Page 8482

1 A. No, no, we didn't see it. We didn't know about it.

2 Q. What did you hear as to what happened?

3 A. I don't understand you.

4 Q. You said that you heard certain things but you didn't see. What

5 did you hear? Could you tell the Chamber as to what you heard?

6 A. We heard noise which came from shelling.

7 Q. Do you know as to what happened after the shelling?

8 A. At that time, we didn't.

9 Q. Later on, did you get to know as to what happened?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What did you hear?

12 A. Sorry?

13 Q. What did you hear? What did you get to know?

14 A. We learned about it through various stories.

15 Q. What?

16 A. That there had been shelling in the area of Kozarac.

17 Q. Did you observe any houses of non-Muslims damaged -- Muslims,

18 houses of Muslims, non-Serbs?

19 A. I saw that six or seven months later.

20 Q. During the time that -- in the month of July, June and July, you

21 didn't see this damage?

22 A. No, I didn't.

23 Q. You are a policeman who visited -- went out of the police station,

24 who was mobilised. You're telling the Chamber that you didn't see this

25 damage which had been done; is that your position?

Page 8483

1 A. I did leave the police station, but I was focused on Banja Luka.

2 I didn't go in the direction of Prijedor, because I planned to live in

3 Banja Luka, I had family there, and I went there.

4 Q. I'm unable to accept your explanation. I don't know whether I do

5 understand you properly. But the time -- during the time that you served

6 as a reserve policeman in Lamovita and were assigned to do duty,

7 patrolling, say, providing security to Mount Kozarac, did you see any

8 damage caused to the houses of the Muslims or non-Serbs, and non-Serbs

9 being removed from that area?

10 A. One couldn't see anything from the transmitter because of the

11 woods. The area is a distant one, and this is where I worked, this is

12 where I was posted. Whereas other people from the police station were in

13 charge of other --

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Nikolic.

15 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I let my learned

16 colleague ask a number of questions on this particular topic and the

17 witness has provided answers to all of those questions. But the last

18 question is a confusing one and a leading one; moreover, I think that the

19 witness has already answered the question.

20 However, there is something confusing in the record concerning

21 various locations and localities. I will bring it up during my

22 re-examination. I believe that that is actually the cause of this

23 confusion.

24 Let me say what the problem is. There has been a confusion

25 between Kozara and Kozarac in the record. The way things stand now, this

Page 8484

1 seems to be one and the same location, but there is a difference between

2 the Kozara Mountain --

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Nikolic, you will have

4 an opportunity to clarify that during your re-examination. We have

5 noticed that.

6 Mr. Waidyaratne, are you aware of the time?

7 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Yes, Your Honour, I will proceed.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So what is the result of that

9 awareness of yours?

10 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I will proceed.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think it has expired. You had

12 25 minutes, so you have no more time left, Mr. Waidyaratne.

13 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I would beg your indulgence for a few more

14 minutes.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] How many minutes?

16 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Five minutes.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Three, I will give you three

18 minutes to finish your cross-examination, Mr. Waidyaratne. It is a rule

19 that we established a long time ago. You have to be able to control the

20 time that has been allotted to you. If you have important questions,

21 proceed with your important questions. If I were you, if I were aware of

22 this time restriction, I would begin with asking important questions, and

23 then later on continue with other questions.

24 Three minutes to finish your cross-examination, Mr. Waidyaratne.


Page 8485

1 Q. Mr. Babic, did Mr. Kos tell you about the time -- you said that he

2 didn't discuss the time that he spent in Omarska camp.

3 A. No, he didn't.

4 Q. Were you aware that there was a camp which detained non-Serbs in

5 Omarska?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you ever go to that camp?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you know as to who were detained there and as to why those

10 people were detained there?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did Mr. Kos tell you, during the time that he spent with you in

13 Banja Luka, as to why those people were detained there?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did Mr. Kos tell you as to what exactly he did in the Omarska camp

16 as a reserve policeman?

17 A. No.

18 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Nikolic.

20 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] It is a leading question, the one

21 that we had from the beginning. In response to the first question put by

22 my learned colleague, the witness said no, that is, that he was not in the

23 camp. I believe that the witness has already clearly answered the

24 question, and now the question is being asked for the second time.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Nikolic, you're right.

Page 8486

1 Mr. Waidyaratne, you started with the question, "Did Mr. Kos talk

2 to you about Omarska?" and he said, "No," and then you continue with

3 matters that would have been the topic of the conversation. Do you

4 realise what you've done?

5 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I do. This question was because we discussed

6 certain matters after that, and I refreshed his mind. I thought he may be

7 able to recollect certain new things. That's why I posed that question.

8 Thank you, Your Honour, I will not repeat myself.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.


11 Q. Did Mr. Kos ever say that he wanted to leave the police?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did he enjoy being a policeman?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. But he never regretted being a policeman?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did he seem to be satisfied with the conversations that you had

18 with him, that the time he spent as a policeman? Was he satisfied that he

19 was a policeman and the functions that he performed?

20 A. He wasn't satisfied.

21 Q. You said earlier something contradictory. Could you explain

22 yourself?

23 A. I don't know what period of time you have in mind, whether the

24 time that he spent as a reserve police officer or an active-duty police

25 officer.

Page 8487

1 Q. As a reserve police officer.

2 A. No. He wasn't satisfied.

3 Q. Why?

4 A. Because of the living conditions at that time and because of

5 professional conditions; that is, relating to the work in general, he

6 wasn't satisfied. He could not be satisfied.

7 Q. Was it, was it the --

8 A. He was not familiar enough with the work.

9 Q. The salary?

10 A. Yes, that was the biggest problem. There was no salary.

11 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Please bear with me, Your Honour.

12 [Prosecution counsel confer]

13 MR. WAIDYARATNE: My last question to Mr. Babic, Your Honour.

14 I'll conclude after this.

15 Q. Was Mr. Kos satisfied being a policeman than being a waiter?

16 A. Being a waiter. I don't quite understand. Did you mean before

17 that or --

18 Q. What did he enjoy? Was it as a policeman or as a waiter? What

19 did he prefer to do, did he say anything about that?

20 A. As a waiter.

21 Q. Mr. Babic, do you know when Mr. Kos left his position as an active

22 policeman, or whether he did leave at all until his arrest?

23 A. No, he stopped working after the indictment was issued, after the

24 indictment was publicly announced.

25 Q. Do you know when?

Page 8488

1 A. In 1995.

2 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour. That concludes my

3 examination.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, just to let you know that

5 you didn't take three minutes but six minutes, but thank you anyway.

6 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, thank you.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

8 Ms. Nikolic.

9 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Mr. Babic, would you please tell the Judges what Mr. Kos did after

11 he was released from the police duty?

12 A. I do know he worked as a waiter.

13 Q. Where did he work as a waiter?

14 A. In Banja Luka.

15 Q. And just to clarify a confusion, will you please tell us this:

16 Just if you -- you said that he worked as a waiter in Banja Luka, when was

17 this, if you recall, what year this was?

18 A. After 1995.

19 Q. Is this the job that he worked at until he was arrested, if you

20 know?

21 A. Yes, for the most part.

22 Q. Thank you. Will you tell us where your unit was located when you

23 were a member of the reserve in 1992?

24 A. You mean where I worked or where the station was?

25 Q. Where your deployment was.

Page 8489












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 8490

1 A. At the transmitter, in the surrounding area.

2 Q. Will you please tell us, what is Kozara?

3 A. That is a mountain.

4 Q. Do you know, does the name Kozarac mean anything to you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What is Kozarac?

7 A. Kozarac is a village, the foothills of Mount Kozara.

8 Q. And the place where you were deployed on Mount Kozara, how far is

9 that from the village of Kozarac?

10 A. About 15 kilometres.

11 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you. I have no

12 further questions.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

14 Ms. Nikolic.

15 Judge Fouad Riad.

16 Questioned by the Court:

17 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Mr. Babic. Can you hear me?

18 A. Good morning. Yes, I can hear you.

19 JUDGE RIAD: I just have a supplementary question to clarify more

20 what you said. If I understood rightly, you shared the room with Mr. Kos

21 in 1992 and even after that. Is that right?

22 A. From 1 November 1992 until the end of 1993.

23 JUDGE RIAD: And were you socialising before that, too, or after

24 that? You knew each other a long time before?

25 A. No.

Page 8491

1 JUDGE RIAD: You did not socialise before November 1992?

2 A. No.

3 JUDGE RIAD: And when you started living together, he never, as

4 you said to Mr. Waidyaratne, he never discussed with you the time he spent

5 in Omarska camp?

6 A. No.

7 JUDGE RIAD: Did you feel that was some kind of taboo, something

8 he would never speak of?

9 A. No, that was not a taboo subject. He was just a withdrawn person.

10 He kept to himself. He was not known for talking.

11 JUDGE RIAD: I see. Thank you very much.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Fouad

13 Riad.

14 Madam Judge Wald.

15 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Babic, one question. At any point in any of the

16 training courses or lectures that you received, either as a reserve or

17 when you were getting ready to be an active policeman, did you receive

18 training in the international humanitarian law that applies to anybody who

19 performs functions in wartime, performs police or like functions in

20 wartime? Did you receive any kind of training about the Geneva

21 Conventions and that sort of thing, and if so, at what point in your

22 career?

23 A. Yes, I heard while I was attending the courses in Banja Luka in

24 1993, in January 1993. Let's say mid-January.

25 JUDGE WALD: You were given -- you say you heard, you were given

Page 8492

1 some kind of lectures or some kind of written material to familiarise

2 yourself with what that international humanitarian law was at that time,

3 in January 1993? Is that what you're saying?

4 A. During the course, we had one class a week which dealt with the

5 international law.

6 JUDGE WALD: Now, just to follow that up, before that when you

7 were mobilised way back in -- I don't know whether it was April or May,

8 but whenever you were mobilised as a reserve policeman before you went to

9 the Banja Luka training course, when you took up your duties as a reserve

10 policeman at the Lamovita police station, did you get any kind of training

11 like that?

12 A. No.

13 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam Judge

15 Wald.

16 Mr. Babic, did a time come when you learnt that Mr. Kos had worked

17 in the Omarska camp?

18 A. I learned about it when the indictment was made public, that he

19 was alleged to be a war crimes suspect.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. If I understood you

21 well, you have already touched upon the matter slightly, that is, that you

22 shared the same room with Mr. Kos from the 1st of November until the end

23 of 1993; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So that would be almost a year

Page 8493

1 and a half, a year and one month, a year and one month?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you lived in the same room

4 with him?

5 A. Yes, we shared it.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You also said that you worked

7 together. For how long did you work together?

8 A. About a year and a half to two.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see. You also said that the

10 subject of conversation, of your conversations, were basically the war and

11 concerns linked to the war; is that right?

12 A. No. The subject was not the war but, rather, the life before the

13 war, mostly the problems relating to the families, then sport topics,

14 sometimes about going out.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] When you say that you spoke

16 about the conditions prior to the war, was there any particular area that

17 you compared, or was it simply nostalgia for good old times?

18 A. It was regretting the passage of the good old days.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm not trying to lead you into

20 giving us an answer. You were comparing the situation before the war and

21 now the situation during the war or after the war; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, for the most part.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. Today,

24 Mr. Babic, you know that Mr. Kos worked in the Omarska camp, that he was a

25 reserve policeman in the Omarska camp. You shared the same room with him;

Page 8494

1 you worked together for more than a year. What is your impression today

2 as to why Mr. Kos did not mention these things at the time? I'm not

3 asking you for the reasons going through Mr. Kos' mind and heart, I'm

4 asking you what you think, how you would interpret this, what your

5 feelings about it are.

6 A. I don't know. As I said, Milojica was a fairly withdrawn person.

7 He did not like to talk about this, nor did I insist on it. I would not

8 like to --

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What things? You're not

10 insisting now or at the time?

11 A. At that time, I did not express interest in where he was, what he

12 did. That was his personal matter. We discussed all other topics outside

13 of Omarska.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Babic, but you had just

15 attended a course to become a policeman, and that activity had something

16 to do with the activity for which you were trained. To be a reserve

17 policeman in the Omarska camp, does it have anything to do with the

18 training that you underwent together?

19 A. My apologies, but could you please repeat the question? I did not

20 fully follow it.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'll be glad to. My question is

22 the following: To be a reserve policeman in the Omarska camp, and the

23 experience that Kos had when he was there, did it have anything in common

24 with the training that you went through together? Is it related?

25 A. It probably is.

Page 8495

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Babic, you have

2 just completed your testimony here. Thank you very much for coming, and I

3 shall ask the usher to accompany you out. Thank you.

4 [The witness withdrew]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think it is time to have the

6 lunch break now. I think that you have already been informed that we will

7 have a Status Conference today at 4.00, just so that you know. I have

8 already given some indication to that effect.

9 We shall now have a 50-minute break. Fifty minutes. I'm looking

10 at the clock.

11 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.50 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 1.46 p.m.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

14 Yes, Mr. Nikolic.

15 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The Defence

16 calls the witness Zeljko Srdic.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Zeljko

19 Srdic. Can you hear me?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you well.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please read the solemn

22 declaration given to you by the usher.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


Page 8496

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated. Make yourself

3 as comfortable as possible, and you will first be answering questions put

4 to you by Mr. Nikolic standing to your left.

5 That's better, but you know the questions by heart, Mr. Nikolic,

6 so there's no problem for you. Please proceed.

7 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour. You're

8 right about that.

9 Examined by Mr. Nikolic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Srdic, good afternoon.

11 A. Good afternoon.

12 Q. For the record, will you please state your full name?

13 A. My name is Zeljko Srdic.

14 Q. Will you please tell us your exact date of birth?

15 A. 10 December 1970.

16 Q. Mr. Srdic, where were you born?

17 A. I was born in the village of Crni Vrh in Glamoc municipality.

18 Q. Do you have any education?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Where did you complete your elementary school?

21 A. I completed it in the local commune of Rore.

22 Q. After the primary schooling, did you continue with your education?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. Could you please tell us where did you enroll next?

25 A. After the elementary school I enrolled in the forestry secondary

Page 8497

1 school in Glamoc municipality.

2 Q. Where was this school exactly?

3 A. It was in the town of Glamoc.

4 Q. When did you graduate from that school?

5 A. I graduated in 1989.

6 Q. After graduating from the school, what did you become?

7 A. I worked in the jobs for which I became qualified through this

8 training.

9 Q. Which was what exactly?

10 A. That was the job of the forestry technician in the company where I

11 worked.

12 Q. After finishing your secondary school, did you immediately find a

13 job?

14 A. I started working a few months later.

15 Q. Mr. Srdic, did you do your military service in the JNA?

16 A. Yes, I did do my military service in the JNA.

17 Q. Will you tell us in what year and where you went to serve your

18 military service?

19 A. I served in the years 1989 to 1990, in the city of Nis.

20 Q. After having completed your military service, did you continue to

21 work in the job for which you had been trained?

22 A. Yes, I continued to work in the same job.

23 Q. Mr. Srdic, are you a family man?

24 A. Freshly married.

25 Q. Mr. Srdic, before the war broke out in the Republic of

Page 8498

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina, where were you?

2 A. I was in my home municipality of Glamoc.

3 Q. After having served out your military duties, were you ever

4 mobilised?

5 A. After I completed this military service, I just continued working

6 in my regular job and I was a member of the reserve, like everybody else.

7 Q. Could you please tell us, when exactly were you mobilised in the

8 reserve force?

9 A. That was on 20 September 1991.

10 Q. Where were you mobilised in the reserve police force?

11 A. That was in Glamoc.

12 Q. Mr. Srdic, would you please explain, where exactly is Glamoc

13 located in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

14 A. Glamoc is about 130 kilometres southwest of Banja Luka.

15 Q. From the moment of your mobilisation, did you ever come to Banja

16 Luka or Prijedor?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you have any knowledge about events in that area in the spring

19 of 1992?

20 A. You mean Banja Luka?

21 Q. Banja Luka and Prijedor.

22 A. No, I did not.

23 Q. You said that you were mobilised as a member of the reserve police

24 force. Will you now please tell us what your duties were, and what did

25 you do as a reserve police officer?

Page 8499

1 A. I was mobilised in the reserve police force. I worked as an

2 assistant helping the active-duty police officers in discharging their

3 tasks.

4 Q. Did you work on your own?

5 A. No. We always worked in groups of three.

6 Q. Who were the members of those groups of three?

7 A. A group always consisted of one active-duty police officer and two

8 reserve police officers.

9 Q. Mr. Srdic, at the time when you were mobilised, who was your

10 direct superior officer?

11 A. My direct superior officer, at the time of my mobilisation, was

12 the commander of the police station.

13 Q. In Glamoc?

14 A. Yes, in Glamoc.

15 Q. Can you tell us whether the commander of the Glamoc Police Station

16 was an active-duty police officer?

17 A. Yes, with an advanced degree in police training.

18 Q. At the time when you were mobilised as a reserve police officer,

19 at the time of the mobilisation, did you get any kind of training for the

20 job and duties that you were to carry out as a police officer?

21 A. No, I did not get any type of training.

22 Q. During the period that you spent working as a reserve police

23 officer, that is, in that period of time, did you receive any kind of

24 training?

25 A. Through the work, on the ground, with the assistance of the

Page 8500












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 8501

1 active-duty police officers.

2 Q. The place where you worked as a reserve police officer, were you

3 able to do something on your own, independently, or to order someone to do

4 something?

5 A. No, I could not.

6 Q. From the moment when you were mobilised, how long did you work as

7 a reserve police officer in Glamoc?

8 A. I worked until November 1992.

9 Q. Where did you go after that?

10 A. I went to Banja Luka for a training course for police officers.

11 Q. When did you arrive in Banja Luka?

12 A. November 1992.

13 Q. So you came to Banja Luka in order to attend --

14 A. To attend a training course for an active-duty police officer.

15 Q. How did you find out about these training courses?

16 A. It was in the newspapers, and also I saw the advertisement on the

17 bulletin board in the police station in Glamoc.

18 Q. Were there any conditions, were there any requirements for a

19 person to be admitted to such a course?

20 A. Yes. There were requirements and they consisted of a certain

21 education, the check of the criminal record, and certain health

22 conditions.

23 Q. From what you know, was anybody admitted to this course who --

24 among those who did not fulfil those requirements?

25 A. From what I know, no one who did not fulfil these requirements

Page 8502

1 could be admitted.

2 Q. The training course that you were admitted to, when did it start?

3 A. My class started in mid-January 1993.

4 Q. How long did this course take?

5 A. It took six months.

6 Q. Do you recall today, how was this course designed, if you

7 remember?

8 A. It was three months of theoretical courses, and then three months

9 of practice.

10 Q. And this practical portion of the course, where did you carry that

11 out?

12 A. That was in the special purpose brigade.

13 Q. Was that in Banja Luka?

14 A. Yes, that was in Banja Luka.

15 Q. While you were attending this training course, did you for the

16 first time learn about legal provisions involved?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What I'm interested in now is whether this practical part of the

19 course was in some ways implementation of the theory that you had covered

20 in the previous part of the course?

21 A. Yes, it did.

22 Q. Tell me now, please, after finishing -- after having finished the

23 course, did you have to pass a final exam?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you remember how long this final exam took, how long did it

Page 8503

1 take?

2 A. Yes, I do remember. It took two to three days.

3 Q. After you completed the course, did you receive a certificate?

4 A. Yes, I received a certificate of completion of the course.

5 Q. And what did you become after you completed this course?

6 A. After I completed this course, I became a junior police officer.

7 Q. Upon completion of the course, did you get any rank?

8 A. No.

9 Q. What happened to you when you completed the course and received

10 your certificate?

11 A. When I completed the course and received my certificate, I started

12 working as a police officer in the special purpose brigade in the OBL

13 department.

14 Q. The station to which you were assigned, did you immediately start

15 working as an active-duty policeman?

16 A. Not straight away because a certain period is required of

17 so-called internship, which lasts six months.

18 Q. Could you explain more closely what that means in practice?

19 A. This internship in practice means that the young policeman has to

20 become acquainted with the methods of work applied in the police, in

21 practice.

22 Q. Mr. Srdic, are you aware whether it is possible for a reserve

23 policeman to become an active-duty policeman?

24 A. Yes, I am aware of that possibility in the way in which I was

25 transferred from a reserve policeman to an active-duty policeman.

Page 8504

1 Q. So you went to a course and got a certificate?

2 A. Yes, and thus I became an active-duty policeman.

3 Q. Are you aware of anybody without attending such a course becoming

4 an active-duty policeman after being a reserve policeman?

5 A. As far as I know, that is not possible.

6 Q. To round off this topic I wish to ask you, what were your motives

7 in applying for this course?

8 A. When the announcement appeared on the bulletin board in the

9 station I was working in, I applied for admission. The motives were of a

10 material nature, resolving the problem of housing for myself, mainly

11 questions of livelihood.

12 Q. Are you still working in the police?

13 A. Yes, in the brigade for anti-terrorist activities.

14 Q. So you will agree with me that your work in the police was

15 uninterrupted ever since you graduated from the course?

16 A. Yes, uninterrupted to the present.

17 Q. Tell me, after the date when the course was signed, did the IPTF

18 vet the police personnel in Republika Srpska?

19 A. Yes, they did, and they did so on three occasions.

20 Q. Were you checked once or several times, if there were several

21 checks?

22 A. Yes. I was cleared after all three checks, and I received an

23 appropriate certificate from the IPTF.

24 Q. If you hadn't received that certificate from the IPTF, could you

25 have continued working in the police?

Page 8505

1 A. No, I could not have continued working in the police.

2 Q. Mr. Srdic, do you know a person by the name of Milojica Kos?

3 A. Yes, I do know Mr. Kos.

4 Q. When did you meet Mr. Kos?

5 A. I met Mr. Milojica Kos in December 1992.

6 Q. Do you know what Milojica Kos did when you met?

7 A. When we met, he was a reserve policeman.

8 Q. Where did the two of you meet?

9 A. We met in Banja Luka at the Internacional Hotel.

10 Q. You said he was a reserve policeman at the time you met. How did

11 you know that?

12 A. He told me that when we were introduced to one another.

13 Q. Do you know what the original occupation of Mr. Kos is?

14 A. The basic occupation of Mr. Kos was in the catering business, and

15 he was a waiter.

16 Q. How did you learn that?

17 A. I learnt it from him.

18 Q. Does that mean that you socialised?

19 A. Yes, we did.

20 Q. How often would you see one another?

21 A. Well, occasionally, two or three times a week.

22 Q. Were you in the same generation at the training course?

23 A. No, we were not in the same generation. I was the class prior to

24 his.

25 Q. Could you describe for us Milojica Kos's personality as you saw

Page 8506

1 him?

2 A. Yes, I can. As far as I know him, he was a friendly man, he was

3 popular in company. Briefly, a person that everyone would like to have as

4 a friend.

5 Q. Could you tell us a little about his temperament?

6 A. Temperament? He's quiet, withdrawn, and always smiling.

7 Q. Do you remember in -- at the time when you were friendly and when

8 you socialised, what were the topics you discussed?

9 A. Well, sports, that was a way when we -- we also got together

10 through sports. We would play basketball for recreational purposes. We

11 would play billiards. We would go out on dates with girls. We would

12 engage in other games.

13 Q. As far as you know, did Milojica Kos graduate from the same course

14 that you graduated from?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. After the completion of that course, what did Mr. Milojica Kos

17 become?

18 A. He also became a junior policeman like myself.

19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Srdic. I have no further questions for you.

20 A. Thank you too.

21 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] And thank you, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

23 Mr. Nikolic.

24 Any other counsel who would like to examine this witness? I see

25 negative signs.

Page 8507

1 Mr. Saxon, you have the floor to cross-examine this witness, and

2 you have more or less 20 minutes for that purpose.

3 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Saxon:

5 Q. Mr. Srdic, I hope I am pronouncing your name correctly.

6 A. Yes, you are.

7 Q. You described how you were mobilised into the reserve police force

8 in September of 1991, and you remained as a reserve policeman until

9 November of 1992; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, correct, quite correct.

11 Q. During that period of time, you were serving in Glamoc?

12 A. In the police station in Glamoc.

13 Q. During that time period when you were serving as a reserve

14 policeman, were you armed?

15 A. Yes, I was armed with a long-barrelled rifle.

16 Q. Was that rifle loaded?

17 A. The rifle I was issued was loaded.

18 Q. Were you trained at some point how to use it?

19 A. Yes. I learned that while doing my military service in the

20 Yugoslav People's Army.

21 Q. During that time period, between September 1991 and November 1992,

22 in your capacity as a reserve police officer, did you ever arrest anyone?

23 A. I personally have never arrested anyone.

24 Q. During that time period, did you help any of your colleagues

25 arrest anybody?

Page 8508

1 A. I didn't have occasion to do that because I worked in a group that

2 was in charge of traffic control.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, excuse me.

4 Mr. Srdic, to put you at ease - I would like you to feel at ease -

5 I wish to tell you that the microphone to the right is on. Both

6 microphones are on, so please feel completely comfortable and speak

7 normally.


9 Q. In the town of Glamoc, was there a gaol?

10 A. As far as I know, there was no prison in Glamoc.

11 Q. Was there any place in Glamoc, if someone had to be arrested for

12 any kind of crime, where they would be detained, even if just temporarily?

13 A. Personally, I don't know, but I think there was such a room in the

14 police station.

15 Q. Did you ever observe persons held in that room in the police

16 station, even just briefly?

17 A. I did not because I was outside on the main road from Glamoc to

18 Drvar, so that I went to the police station only on a couple of

19 occasions.

20 Q. If you were doing traffic control, does that mean you and your

21 colleagues occasionally would have to stop vehicles for different reasons?

22 A. Yes, we did stop vehicles. In fact, we stopped all the vehicles,

23 more or less, that passed through the checkpoint.

24 Q. Did you or any of your colleagues ever beat any of the drivers or

25 occupants of those vehicles that you stopped at your checkpoint?

Page 8509

1 A. No. Our control was mainly limited to routine control of luggage

2 and goods that were being transported through that checkpoint.

3 Q. Did you or any of your colleagues ever sexually abuse any of the

4 drivers or the occupants of the vehicles that you stopped at that

5 checkpoint?

6 A. No, never.

7 Q. Did you or any of your colleagues ever take away the valuables,

8 wallets and jewellery, et cetera, from any of the drivers or the occupants

9 of the vehicles that you stopped at that checkpoint?

10 A. As far as I'm aware, I do not know of any form of corruption or

11 any such acts.

12 Q. In fact, between September 1991 and November 1992, did you ever

13 see any of your colleagues in the police force or in the reserve police

14 force mistreat citizens?

15 A. I am not aware of that.

16 Q. You mentioned the six-month course that you attended in Banja

17 Luka, and at one point during your direct testimony, you talked about the

18 legal provisions that were studied during that course. I'm wondering

19 whether, during that course, you or your classmates or your instructors

20 ever discussed examples of poor or improper police conduct.

21 A. No, never. The job of the policeman is to protect citizens.

22 Q. During that course, did you or any of your classmates or your

23 instructors ever discuss activities at the Omarska camp or the Omarska

24 investigations centre during the spring and summer of 1992?

25 A. While we were attending the course, I was not familiar with any of

Page 8510

1 that.

2 Q. That course began in January of 1993; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, correct.

4 Q. Were there any Muslims in your course?

5 A. At the time in Banja Luka, I don't think there was a single Muslim

6 who was attending the course.

7 Q. Why not?

8 A. This was a course organised for the Banja Luka region and students

9 were exclusively of Serb ethnicity.

10 Q. Are you of Serb ethnicity yourself?

11 A. Yes, I am.

12 Q. Mr. Srdic, after the creation of the Republika Srpska in 1992, did

13 you ever sign a declaration or an oath proclaiming that you would uphold

14 the constitution and the laws of the Republika Srpska?

15 A. Upon graduating from the course, I signed such an oath.

16 MR. SAXON: I'd like to ask for the usher's help, please. If we

17 could place by the witness, on the ELMO, a copy of Prosecutor's Exhibit

18 3/210. I don't know if this is an exhibit that's been given to the Judges

19 or not at this time. If not, it can be now. I think the members of the

20 Defence need a copy of this.

21 Q. Mr. Srdic, do you have a copy of the Serbo-Croatian text in front

22 of you so that you can read it?

23 A. Yes, I do have a copy.

24 Q. If you can see, this is a document entitled "Solemn Declaration,"

25 it's dated 5th of May, 1992, and there is a signature on the bottom

Page 8511












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 8512

1 right-hand side that purports to be the signature of Milojica Kos. Do you

2 see that?

3 A. Yes, I do. I see it very well.

4 Q. My question for you is, the declaration or the oath that you

5 signed when you completed your course, did it resemble this solemn

6 declaration?

7 A. As far as I remember, I did not sign any such declaration.

8 Q. All right. I'm a little bit confused because I thought your

9 response a moment ago was that you had.

10 I'm looking at the transcript, page 79, line 19, where I asked you

11 if you ever signed a declaration, and your response was, "Upon graduating

12 from the course, I signed such an oath." Do you recall saying that to me?

13 A. I remember saying that, but I didn't sign any statement. Simply

14 by getting the certificate, it meant that I was committed.

15 Q. Let me read this to you. It says: "I, Milojica Kos, declare that

16 I will perform the duty of an authorised official in a conscientious and

17 responsible manner, that I will uphold the constitution and the laws and

18 that I will protect the established order of the Republic, its laws, its

19 liberties, and its security with all my strength; and that I will perform

20 these and other duties and tasks of an authorised official even when

21 performance of these duties and tasks may endanger my life."

22 When you say that you got your certificate it meant you were

23 committed, are you saying that when you received your certificate as a

24 police officer, you were making the same commitment as is expressed in

25 this declaration?

Page 8513

1 A. Yes, I gave a solemn declaration orally.

2 Q. Did every graduate of your course, your police course, your police

3 training course in Banja Luka, have to give this solemn declaration?

4 A. Yes. We all had to give that solemn declaration.

5 MR. SAXON: If that exhibit could be removed now, please. Thank

6 you.

7 Q. You mentioned that upon your graduation, Mr. Srdic, you began to

8 work in something called the Special Purpose Brigade. What was the

9 purpose of the Special Purpose Brigade?

10 A. A brigade for special purposes in the OBL department.

11 Q. I understand that that was the name of the brigade, I guess in the

12 context of police work, why did that brigade have the name "special

13 purpose"? What were the special purpose or special activities that your

14 brigade was expected to fulfil?

15 A. The special tasks assigned to our brigade meant going to the front

16 lines when necessary.

17 Q. Do you know if Milojica Kos was ever a member of the Special

18 Purposes Brigade?

19 A. He was a member of the Special Purpose Brigade in the OBL

20 department, together with me.

21 Q. Did you serve with Mr. Kos at the front line?

22 A. Yes, we did go to the front line together on a couple of

23 occasions.

24 Q. And when you were together with Mr. Kos at the front line, did you

25 and Mr. Kos face combat together?

Page 8514

1 A. There were occasions of combat, yes.

2 Q. Did you have to volunteer to be a member of the Special Purpose

3 Brigade?

4 A. No. We applied once such an announcement was made public inviting

5 applicants.

6 Q. Did you have to apply for acceptance into the Special Purposes

7 Brigade?

8 A. We were assigned to the Special Purposes Brigade in the OBL

9 department.

10 Q. Did Mr. Kos also apply to be a part of the Special Purpose

11 Brigade, if you know?

12 A. Once we graduated from the course, we were assigned to this

13 Special Purposes Brigade of the OBL department.

14 Q. Can you explain, what is the OBL department? Is OBL a place? Can

15 you explain to the Judges what OBL is or where it is?

16 A. The OBL department was a department for the security of important

17 facilities in town and personalities, like the radio television of

18 Republika Srpska, the central bank, and the other vital facilities in

19 town.

20 Q. You mentioned that the IPTF vetted the policemen in Banja Luka

21 three different times. Did you tell the representatives of the IPTF

22 honestly and completely what you did during the war, during those vetting

23 processes?

24 A. Yes, they were informed.

25 Q. Isn't it true that when the IPTF performs those vetting

Page 8515

1 procedures, they only ask serving police officers whether they have ever

2 been arrested in the past or ever been convicted of a crime in the past?

3 Isn't that correct?

4 A. Not a single policeman who had not -- whose criminal records had

5 not been checked to make sure that they had none could work as a

6 policeman.

7 Q. So if you had never been arrested, had never been convicted of a

8 crime, you could pass the IPTF vetting procedure; is that right?

9 A. Yes, I passed through the vetting procedure.

10 MR. SAXON: May I have the Court's indulgence for one moment,

11 please.

12 [Prosecution counsel confer]

13 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time, I have no further

14 questions. Thank you.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Saxon. Twenty

16 minutes on the dot.

17 So, Mr. Nikolic, is giving me a sign to tell me he has no

18 additional questions.

19 Judge Fouad Riad.

20 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] No questions, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 Madam Judge Wald?

23 JUDGE WALD: I have just one question.

24 Questioned by the Court:

25 JUDGE WALD: During the time when you were a reserve policeman,

Page 8516

1 before you took the course to become an active policeman, and while you

2 had been mobilised as a reserve policeman, suppose the assignment you had

3 been given, you didn't like at all, you were unhappy with, you were

4 very -- you didn't like the work and you really felt very dissatisfied,

5 would you be able, as a mobilised reserve officer, to go to somebody and

6 say, "I want a change of assignment," or were you absolutely required to

7 stick to the assignment you had even if you were very unhappy about it?

8 Was there any recourse if you really didn't like what you were doing? You

9 were willing to be mobilised but you just wanted to do something else.

10 A. I could not change my assignment. I could not carry it out.

11 JUDGE WALD: I know you couldn't change it without permission of

12 your superior, but could you go to the superior and ask for a change? Did

13 that ever happen to anyone, in your experience? For various reasons -

14 they didn't like where they had been assigned or they had family reasons

15 or something - could they request a change?

16 A. As far as the change of assignment is concerned, I could not

17 influence that. The only thing I could do is to refuse to obey it.

18 JUDGE WALD: You couldn't just go to your commander and say, "Here

19 are the reasons why. This is just a wrong assignment for me. I'll do

20 something else, I'll do anything else you want me to do, but this is a bad

21 place for me to be"? You couldn't do that?

22 A. Yes, I could make a suggestion; however, I could not influence a

23 change in assignment.

24 JUDGE WALD: I understand that. In your experience, did that ever

25 happen? Did anybody who was mobilised as a reserve policeman and assigned

Page 8517

1 to one job ever request and have the request granted to be changed to a

2 different assignment?

3 A. As far as I can recall, no, there were no such cases in my

4 experience.

5 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Judge Wald.

7 Mr. Srdic, if I understood you well, but I would like to hear your

8 answer, the course you attended ended in mid-July.

9 A. The course I attended ended about mid-June or mid-July, as far as

10 I can remember.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So it was six months, and if it

12 started in mid-January, we can work it out.

13 But there's another point, Mr. Srdic. At the end of this course,

14 was there a ceremony or something to observe the completion of the course,

15 to distribute diplomas, or something like that?

16 A. Yes, there was a ceremony when these certificates/diplomas were

17 given out, and then it was followed by some kind of a little party where

18 refreshments were served.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] How, where, and when did you

20 give that solemn declaration that you mentioned?

21 A. The solemn declaration was given at the premises where we had

22 actually attended the courses, in Banja Luka.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So there were various places.

24 You completed the course, the three months of practical training, and then

25 you gave that solemn declaration in that room there; is that correct?

Page 8518

1 A. Yes, that is correct.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you,

3 Mr. Srdic. I see that Judge Fouad Riad does have a question now.

4 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

5 [In English] Mr. Srdic, in your answer to my colleague, Judge

6 Wald, when she asked you if you could ask for a change of assignment, you

7 said you could only refuse to obey an assignment. Was that allowed, to

8 refuse an assignment, to refuse to obey, and what would be the result?

9 A. It was not permitted. It was actually sanctioned by the

10 superiors, and if I was not in a position to carry it out -- that is,

11 unless I was not in a position to carry it out, that I had reasons for

12 refusing.

13 JUDGE RIAD: And what would be the reasons? What reasons were you

14 allowed to use?

15 A. A reason for refusal would perhaps be, in my case, some lack of

16 proper training to carry out an assignment.

17 JUDGE RIAD: What about if the assignment was not a regular one or

18 was a violation of any rules that you knew of, like assigning you to do a

19 job, something which is not allowed, where your superior gave you an

20 assignment which you know is not legally allowed?

21 A. In my case, I just assisted the work of the active-duty police

22 officers at that time.

23 JUDGE RIAD: We're not speaking of your case because you were

24 speaking in general. You said you could only refuse to obey an

25 assignment. So does this refusal include also wrong assignments or

Page 8519

1 assignments which you know are not legally correct?

2 A. My position is that I can refuse to carry out an assignment if

3 this assignment is not legal.

4 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So, Mr. Srdic, you have just

7 completed your testimony here. Thank you very much. The usher will now

8 see you out. Thank you.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon.

12 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time, the Prosecutor would move

13 for the admission of Prosecution Exhibit 3/210.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Is there any objection,

15 Mr. Nikolic?

16 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, we object, Your Honour. There's no indicia

17 of authenticity, of provenance, whether or not this person -- who this

18 person is, no basis -- there's no indicia of it having any probative

19 value.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, your response to the

21 objection.

22 MR. SAXON: Obviously this document is hearsay evidence; however,

23 the standard for admission of hearsay before this Tribunal comes to us

24 from the jurisprudence of Tadic where the party asking to admit the

25 evidence must show relevance, probative value, and only an indicia of

Page 8520

1 authenticity.

2 I think the relevance and probative value are clear from the face

3 of the document. This is a declaration signed by the accused, Mr. Kos,

4 declaring that he will uphold the constitution and the laws of the

5 Republika Srpska. It's signed in Prijedor, the 5 of May, 1992. The last

6 witness indicated that all graduates of the training course in Banja Luka

7 had to take such a declaration, a similar declaration, but here we have

8 Mr. Kos making this declaration more than a year earlier.

9 In terms of indicia of authenticity, we do have provenance. We

10 know where this document was issued. It was issued by the Public Security

11 Station from Prijedor. So in the Prosecutor's submission, this is clearly

12 an admissible document.

13 If there are issues as to probative value or authenticity, then

14 the Trial Chamber at the end of the day may study those issues and

15 determine what weight, if any, to give this document. Certainly it is

16 admissible at this time.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, I think the question

18 that Mr. O'Sullivan has raised, if I understood him properly, is the

19 question of the signature after all, the signature by the person

20 involved.

21 What the Defence is contesting is the authenticity, but

22 specifically of the signature, but I'll give the floor to Mr. O'Sullivan.

23 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I'll respond in three ways, Your Honour. First,

24 there's no proof in the record that this document comes from Banja Luka;

25 second, there's no proof that Milojica Kos was ever in Prijedor in early

Page 8521

1 May 1992, no proof on the record of that; and clearly there's no proof

2 whether we're talking about the same Milojica Kos.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think we're going on to

4 another question. We've already addressed that matter. To produce a

5 document, in my view, needs -- the first question that needs to be

6 resolved is the question of authenticity. Do you have any response to

7 that?

8 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour, and my submission is that the

9 authenticity or indicia of authenticity of this document is visible from

10 the face of this document.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But how can you see that,

12 Mr. Saxon? I personally don't see that. This document, I'm sorry, but it

13 could have been prepared anywhere. How can you say that one can see the

14 authenticity? Where did you get this document? Who gave you this

15 document? I'm sorry for insisting.

16 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I will respond in two ways. First of

17 all, as Judge Wald suggested to us last week, we can and we will certainly

18 submit a declaration of the investigator who seized these documents in

19 Prijedor if that will assist the Court in determining sufficient

20 authenticity.

21 JUDGE WALD: How about the original of this? Have you got the

22 original in the Prosecutor's files? I mean, that --

23 MR. SAXON: The original should be in the Evidence Unit, in the

24 Evidence Unit's vault or --

25 JUDGE WALD: In the registry -- or I don't know where.

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Page 8523

1 MR. SAXON: Whoever manages the Evidence Unit, it has always been

2 the practice that the Evidence Unit holds on to the original document.

3 JUDGE WALD: The Evidence Unit of what, of the OTP or of the

4 registry? I'm sorry, I don't --

5 MR. SAXON: It's my understanding that prior to evidence being

6 admitted into Court, the evidence is maintained by the Evidence Unit of

7 the Office of the Prosecutor, and then after that it would go to the

8 registry.

9 JUDGE WALD: Well, don't you think that if a -- let me ask your

10 opinion. If a document is challenged on authenticity, does the Prosecutor

11 have an obligation to produce in Court the original and say, "Are you

12 saying this isn't Mr. Kos's signature?" Or you think that they don't have

13 that right, that it's enough just to have the Xerox of it.

14 MR. SAXON: I take your point, Your Honour. If a document is

15 challenged, then the Prosecution -- if a Xerox copy of an original is

16 presented in court and that is challenged, it is certainly fair to ask the

17 Prosecution to show the original in Court, and that is something that we

18 can do.

19 If you would like, Your Honours, we can certainly hold this

20 decision -- or you might hold this decision in abeyance for a day or two

21 until we get a declaration from our investigator regarding this specific

22 document, and we will do that. And we will also bring the original to

23 court as soon as we can.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. You will present the

25 report of the investigator, so we'll wait. We cannot decide now whether

Page 8524

1 we're going to admit the document or not.

2 But following on to what Judge Wald has just said, there was

3 recently an amendment to the rules of the Tribunal which makes it

4 obligatory that originals of documents that are photocopied, that the

5 originals have to remain with the registry. In other words, the originals

6 of the documents that you produce here in the courtroom have to be

7 deposited with the registry.

8 I cannot tell you by heart what exactly the amendment is, but it

9 is to that effect. Therefore, since this latest amendment, you can no

10 longer say that the original is any particular unit of the Prosecution; it

11 has to be in the hands of the registry. With those remarks, you,

12 Mr. Saxon, and the Prosecution as a whole can see what is happening, what

13 will happen to this document afterwards.

14 But anyway, we can't make a decision now. We will wait for the

15 statement of the investigator.

16 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. Nikolic, I don't

18 suppose that we can begin with another witness now?

19 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you're quite right. I

20 misjudged the time. We completed earlier than we had planned, so I would

21 like to resume with witness statements tomorrow at 9.20.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, Mr. Nikolic, we're glad that

23 you have finished earlier. We don't need to prolong things artificially,

24 to use the time, so congratulations for doing your work so quickly. That

25 is what should be said.

Page 8525

1 So we will continue tomorrow according to the schedule, but we'll

2 be back here at 4.00 for the Status Conference.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.50 p.m., to

4 be followed by a Status Conference.






















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